Hard Light Productions Forums

Archived Boards => The Archive => The Unification War => Topic started by: Admiral Nelson on December 25, 2007, 12:56:45 pm

Title: UW Act I Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 25, 2007, 12:56:45 pm
The TVWP team is proud to bring you this Christmastime Demo of the Terran Vasudan War Chapter One, Act One.

Includes:
Nine playable missions
One in-game cutscene
One rendered cutscene

Many all new playable models
All New interface
All New HUD
All New ballistic weaponry

Installation
TVWP requires the SCP, version 3.6.9.  If you download the normal maps (see below), you will need a recent HEAD (i.e. unstable branch) build.

Download the files below, and place them all in a new mod folder.  You do not want a mod.ini which references the MediaVPs or any other mod.  TVWP is fully self contained.


Required files:

TVWP Root
Download from FileFront (http://files.filefront.com/TVWP+Rootzip/;9319796;/fileinfo.html)

Download from Nukelol Mirror (http://tvwp.freespacemods.net/Demo/TVWP-Root.zip)

TVWP Models

Download from FileFront (http://files.filefront.com/TVWP+modelszip/;9398423;/fileinfo.html)

Download from Nukelol Mirror (http://tvwp.freespacemods.net/Demo/TVWP-models.zip)

TVWP Missions

Download from FileFront (http://files.filefront.com/TVWP+missionszip/;9398493;/fileinfo.html)

Download from Nukelol Mirror (http://tvwp.freespacemods.net/Demo/TVWP-missions.zip)

You will also need to download the attached campaign file if you downloaded the missions pack before December 26th and place it in TVWP/data/missions.  This fixes the bug where the outro cutscene plays twice.


Optional files
TVWP Interface
Brand new interface art custom designed by Lightspeed
Download from FileFront (http://files.filefront.com/TVWP+interfacezip/;9319873;/fileinfo.html)

Download from Nukelol Mirror (http://tvwp.freespacemods.net/Demo/TVWP-interface.zip)

TVWP Enhanced

Includes shine/glow maps; hi res dds textures; hi res backgrounds

Download from FileFront (http://files.filefront.com/TVWP+enhancedzip/;9358322;/fileinfo.html)

Download from Nukelol Mirror (http://tvwp.freespacemods.net/Demo/TVWP-enhanced.zip)

TVWP Normal Maps

Normal maps creaated by freespaceking for TVWP models.  Requires a recent HEAD build.

Download from FileFront (http://files.filefront.com/TVWP+normalzip/;9319903;/fileinfo.html)

Download from Nukelol Mirror (http://tvwp.freespacemods.net/Demo/TVWP-normal.zip)

Demo Outro cutscene

TVWP Demo Outro cutscene (http://files.filefront.com/TVWP+movieszip/;9324038;/fileinfo.html)

Download from Nukelol Mirror (http://tvwp.freespacemods.net/Demo/TVWP-movies.zip)

Demo Credits

Project Leads
Admiral Nelson
Goober5000

FREDing
Blaise Russel
Lightspeed
Mustang19

Textures
freespaceking
Lightspeed

Models
aldo_14
Analazon
Deepblue
GalacticEmperor
KillMeNow
Raptor
Ryx
Shrike
Spicious
Taristin
Woomeister

Command Briefing Animations & Cutscenes
DragonClaw
Lt. Cannonfodder
Tar-Palantir

Interface Art
Flipside
GalacticEmperor
Goober5000
Lightspeed

Story Consultant
Eishtmo

Mission Testing
Admiral Nelson
Goober5000
Herra Tohtori
Mad Bomber
MP-Ryan



[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Koth on December 25, 2007, 03:19:58 pm
Woohooo!!!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on December 25, 2007, 03:29:38 pm
I'd like to thank Admiral Nelson for his leadership and support here.  Without him, you guys probably wouldn't have gotten anything playable for another few months, at least. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 25, 2007, 03:37:53 pm
Fantastic! Downloading now! :D

EDIT: FileFront is too much for a slow connection. Can you mirror the files somewhere else so that I can use Star Downloader?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Koth on December 25, 2007, 03:41:40 pm
Awesome. This is just awesome.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Shade on December 25, 2007, 03:56:39 pm
Now that's what I call a good christmas present :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: TrashMan on December 25, 2007, 03:56:55 pm
DAMN YOU FILEFRONT! DAMN YOU TO HEEEEELL! :hopping:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on December 25, 2007, 04:12:37 pm
Hmm. This is fantastic, but I think I'm doing something wrong. In the second training mission everything seems to go somewhat well and I don't get any explicit comments about sucking and the debriefing text sounds good, but still I get the FS2_DB_03.wav of DoomTM and am told that I failed the mission, when trying to advance to the next mission. Did I suck or is there some flaw in the mission?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 25, 2007, 04:22:27 pm
DAMN YOU FILEFRONT! DAMN YOU TO HEEEEELL! :hopping:

:yes:

I'm barely DLing the first file...can someone set a mirror, please?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on December 25, 2007, 04:24:33 pm
I'm barely DLing the first file...can someone set a mirror, please?[/i][/color]
I would but the damn bugger is huge. My magazine subscription webspace is 100mb only, so even if I took everything else away, this thing still wouldn't fit.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 25, 2007, 04:31:37 pm
I made an error in recompiling the last missions vp -- imagine trying to build vps whilst being attacked by a four year old. :)  If you redownload the missions vp alone the training issue should be fixed.

I don't have a better mirror than filefront at this time. :(
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on December 25, 2007, 04:34:57 pm
*shrug* kids... Anyways, cheers. So far it seemed intriguing, even though no voice acting is, as always, a small nuisance. Oh, and I like the new interface as well.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Nuclear1 on December 25, 2007, 06:22:42 pm
Well, it's about damned time.

Downloading now.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 25, 2007, 06:37:53 pm
About time!

But can you host the files somewhere else? Filefront is being an asshole and not letting me download anything past the models.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 25, 2007, 06:50:51 pm
HOLY ****!

D/l'ing now!!!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: diceman111 on December 25, 2007, 07:39:12 pm
What does "Requires a recent HEAD build." mean I have been a little out of touch for a while I use 3.6.9 will that work or should I get "2007-10-28 stable branch (Xt version)" or something
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on December 25, 2007, 08:10:01 pm
I think you only need HEAD if you want to see the normal maps.  For everything else, 3.6.9 is fine.

HEAD (i.e. unstable) is an experimental branch that is posted in the Recent Builds forum from time to time.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 25, 2007, 08:13:04 pm
Is there any chance someone can temporarily host the files? Filefront is absolutely refusing to let me download the TVWP files.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 25, 2007, 08:15:02 pm
Lobo did.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 25, 2007, 08:20:34 pm
Oh, I didn't see that. Thanks, Lobo! :D
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 25, 2007, 08:26:20 pm
The ****tiest thing is, you still have to download TVWP Enhanced and Normals from...

[font=<some random evil font>]FILEFRONT[/font]

 :shaking:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Hades on December 25, 2007, 08:29:12 pm
The ****tiest thing is, you still have to download TVWP Enhanced and Normals from...

[font=<some random evil font>]FILEFRONT[/font]

 :shaking:
Oh big deal.
I have never had problems with FileFront.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 25, 2007, 08:33:52 pm
Yes, it is a big deal.

Quote from: File Front Download Error
There was an error processing your request; it appears to be invalid or there was an error with your conection. Please wait while your request is retried...

If you need further help with a download, please contact FileFront support.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Hades on December 25, 2007, 08:35:24 pm
Hmm, I have never had 1 problem with FileFront.
Weird, weird like this smiley: :eek:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 25, 2007, 08:41:13 pm
So just because you don't have problems with FileFront, that means we don't either? :doubt:

[EDIT] Played a few missions. "Holy ****" is all I can say.

Spoiler:
Kinda dull without pilot heads popping up or targeting, but it lets me know that it's WAY in the past. :nervous: :D
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 25, 2007, 10:37:28 pm
Spoiler:
I love no targeting, it really gives a different style of gameplay and yeah, it does make you seem far in the past. The first thing I do after I finish the campaign is open up a .tbm and add an Ares, Maxim, Kayser, Treb and Tornado in there. :D
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on December 25, 2007, 10:49:09 pm
Spoiler:
I love no targeting, it really gives a different style of gameplay and yeah, it does make you seem far in the past.
Good. :) There have been a few lively debates over the years on how that would be received.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mehrpack on December 25, 2007, 11:51:29 pm
hi,
cool! to bad that i have in the monent not the time to play it.

but i had the time to upload the files to my webspace :)

there the link of the mirriors:

TVWP-Root.zip (http://www.the-nighthawks.com/store/FS/tvwp/TVWP-Root.zip)
TVWP-enhanced.zip (http://www.the-nighthawks.com/store/FS/tvwp/TVWP-enhanced.zip)
TVWP-interface.zip (http://www.the-nighthawks.com/store/FS/tvwp/TVWP-interface.zip)
TVWP-missions.zip (http://www.the-nighthawks.com/store/FS/tvwp/TVWP-missions.zip)
TVWP-models.zip (http://www.the-nighthawks.com/store/FS/tvwp/TVWP-models.zip)
TVWP-movies.zip (http://www.the-nighthawks.com/store/FS/tvwp/TVWP-movies.zip)
TVWP-normal.zip (http://www.the-nighthawks.com/store/FS/tvwp/TVWP-normal.zip)

Mehrpack
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: achtung on December 26, 2007, 12:47:49 am
DAMN YOU FILEFRONT! DAMN YOU TO HEEEEELL! :hopping:

Have some mirrors:

Root (http://www.nukelol.com/downloads/freespacefiles/campaigns/tvwpdemo/TVWP-root.zip)
Models (http://www.nukelol.com/downloads/freespacefiles/campaigns/tvwpdemo/TVWP-models.zip)
Missions (http://www.nukelol.com/downloads/freespacefiles/campaigns/tvwpdemo/TVWP-missions.zip)

Optional:

Interface (http://www.nukelol.com/downloads/freespacefiles/campaigns/tvwpdemo/TVWP-interface.zip)
Enhanced (http://www.nukelol.com/downloads/freespacefiles/campaigns/tvwpdemo/TVWP-enhanced.zip)
Normal Maps (http://www.nukelol.com/downloads/freespacefiles/campaigns/tvwpdemo/TVWP-normal.zip)
Demo Outro Cutscene (http://www.nukelol.com/downloads/freespacefiles/campaigns/tvwpdemo/TVWP-movies.zip)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: jr2 on December 26, 2007, 01:47:11 am
AFAIK, most FileFront issues would be from using a non-standard downloader (eg, Free Download Manager, GetRight, FlashGet, etc, etc, which normally work excellently and really increase the speed and reliability of the download).  So, use your bypass key, or hit cancel on the download manager's window, and you should get the standard IE download box.  For FireFox, if you are using FlashGot plugin with an external downloader, just hit "Save to Disk" instead, or uncheck the "Use FlashGot" option.  Is this your problem?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 26, 2007, 01:50:23 am
I finished the demo; hot damn, I want more. :D

I found a slight goof though. The last cutscene plays before the last mission and then after the last mission, so it plays twice.

I also found a spelling error in one of the missions. Can't remember what it was now.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on December 26, 2007, 02:24:58 am
I finished the demo; hot damn, I want more. :D
Hopefully, more will be forthcoming very soon. :)

Quote
I found a slight goof though. The last cutscene plays before the last mission and then after the last mission, so it plays twice.
Noted.  Download a fixed campaign file from the first post in this thread.

Quote
I also found a spelling error in one of the missions. Can't remember what it was now.
Well, that doesn't help us much, does it? :p
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Vidmaster on December 26, 2007, 04:31:27 am
whoaaa :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:! great work people!  :yes:
Feels like playing good old Terminus. Great idea, great concepts, nice political landscape.
Will there be voiceacting in the final campaign?

just one complaint, the way you have to download this sucks, couldn't you have made a optional all-in-one download?
on the other hand, I downloaded it already so it probably does not matter...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: SF-Junky on December 26, 2007, 06:46:44 am
Uh-oh, the lack of targeting is a feature - and I first thought I just made some stupid mistake while instaling the thing. :nervous: Don't know if I ever get used to that. I hope you didn't overdo with all the lowtech. But this is just my first impression, a real review follows as soon as I've finished the demo. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Alan Bolte on December 26, 2007, 07:51:41 am
Well, it froze about one second into the outro cutscene, but I just went and extracted it from the VP and watched it manually. Haven't bothered trying it again. Did you want an error log? Or would that be better addressed to the SCP, seeing as it's more likely a 3.6.9 problem than a TVWP problem?
Spoiler:
The lack of targeting stays around just long enough to get used to it, then you wow me by giving back what you had taken away. Never again will I take targeting for granted. When I heard there was no targeting, I assumed there was just no lead indicator, and that I can deal with, but boy this was something different!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Polpolion on December 26, 2007, 10:29:33 am
Are these missions going to be included in the chapter 1, or is this totally separate?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 26, 2007, 10:42:33 am
These missions are Act I of three acts.  The final release will simply add Acts II and III.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Viper01 on December 26, 2007, 10:42:49 am
Excellent, I've always wanted a story leading up to FS. Thanks, downloading now!!!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Vidmaster on December 26, 2007, 10:52:20 am
These missions are Act I of three acts.  The final release will simply add Acts II and III.

cool
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jake2447 on December 26, 2007, 02:37:56 pm
Hmm, I have never had 1 problem with FileFront.
Weird, weird like this smiley: :eek:

Same here.  FileFront always works for me.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 26, 2007, 03:06:17 pm
Error: Can't open model file <none>
File:J:\src\cvs\fs2_open_3_6_9.final\code\Model\ModelRead.cpp
Line: 1902
[This filename points to the location of a file on the computer that built this executable]

Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

?

I have all VPs...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 26, 2007, 03:23:09 pm
Are you using a debug build for some reason?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: MetalDestroyer on December 26, 2007, 03:25:54 pm
Damn it's too difficult ^^ I love the game mechanics but just change that HUD and the UI. It hurt my eye -_- The choice of the olors are a bit too flashy and excessive. I don't like the weapons effects both graphical and sound.

However, after playing 2 missions after the training, I found it great.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Vidmaster on December 26, 2007, 03:36:10 pm
they are a little loud, I agree. Sure you wanted to do something like WII air combat which is fine, but remember we are in space (no sound at all). Since no sound would suck  ;), change the volume and nature of the sound.

Additionally, I ask again: Will there be voice acting in the full campaign?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 26, 2007, 03:37:38 pm
Are you using a debug build for some reason?

No, I'm using a normal FS Open build.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Nuclear1 on December 26, 2007, 04:37:47 pm
Whoa, this was a steep learning curve.

But still fun.

You guys rock. :yes:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 26, 2007, 05:03:15 pm
Error: Can't open model file <none>
?

I have all VPs...


I would tend to think that you must have some stray tbms or othr files contaminating your base FS2 folder.  TVWP is fully self contained and has all required models.

Quote
Additionally, I ask again: Will there be voice acting in the full campaign?

It took on the order of four months to complete the voice acting for the eight missions of Cardinal Spear.  I shudder to think how long the 29 missions of TVWP Chapter 1 would take.  Voice acting will be considered for future (smaller) chapters.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 26, 2007, 05:29:00 pm
Error: Can't open model file <none>
?

I have all VPs...


I would tend to think that you must have some stray tbms or othr files contaminating your base FS2 folder.  TVWP is fully self contained and has all required models.

I have just checked, there are some other files(OTT and such). The models and tables folders are both empty, however...how can a few textures placed in data/maps cause that error?!?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 26, 2007, 05:54:43 pm
It can't.  I would tend to suspect you have a mod vp floating around in the base directory someplace.  Remember that there should be no mod.ini nor any reference to any other mod -- no mediavps, for instance.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 26, 2007, 05:59:48 pm
It can't.  I would tend to suspect you have a mod vp floating around in the base directory someplace.  Remember that there should be no mod.ini nor any reference to any other mod -- no mediavps, for instance.

D'oh!

I have just removed the mod.ini, but I still get that error  :mad:

Are you sure I have to delete/move textures, icons and other files from my root FS2 folder?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 26, 2007, 06:35:44 pm
Are you sure I have to delete/move textures, icons and other files from my root FS2 folder?[/i][/color]

They shouldn't be in your root FS2 folder anyway! They should be in mod folders!!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: jr2 on December 27, 2007, 01:50:40 am
The only thing in FS2 root should be FS2 retail files, with the FS2ogg vp being the exception (and the 3.6.9 exes + launcher).
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on December 27, 2007, 02:16:34 am
--and your "FS2 Junk" folder! :P

BTW, Will that uber-sweet HUD work with regular FS2 (with the MediaVPs)???
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: jr2 on December 27, 2007, 02:20:20 am
--and your "FS2 Junk" folder! :P

BTW, Will that uber-sweet HUD work with regular FS2 (with the MediaVPs)???

Ah... Yes, mine is called "disabled"  ;)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 27, 2007, 06:36:59 am

BTW, Will that uber-sweet HUD work with regular FS2 (with the MediaVPs)???

It has all of the required HUD elements (shield and weapon energy gauges), so I don't see why not.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Zombimode on December 27, 2007, 08:49:26 am
Ive encountered a type of stealth fighters.
The model of the Amaz... uhm the Falcon apears to be "invisible". No crash or anything. I can see the engine glows etc. but not the ship itself.
It is just me?

Otherwise, great work.  I love the low tech feel :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 27, 2007, 09:04:46 am
Do you have jpg/tga textures enabled>
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Zombimode on December 27, 2007, 09:08:35 am
Ah, that was the problem. Well, thanks :)
And I take my comment about the falcon/amazon back. The TVWP website shows obviously an older picture.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 27, 2007, 09:53:18 am
Yeah, I need to update the website.  The information there is very old.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on December 27, 2007, 10:52:36 am
I'm getting a 'failed to create command recognition context' error when attempting to launch TVWP. Running other mods works fine.

I have all the TVWP files in a folder called 'TVWP' in my FS2_Open directory, which I've selected under the mod tab.

I understand this is usually an Open_AL error (I searched the forum) but I've got the latest version installed and 'ordinary' FS2, i.e. the main campaign, seems to work fine.

What's going on?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mehrpack on December 27, 2007, 10:53:36 am
hi,
a question, is this normal that i can targeting anything? i have played the first 3 mission and its wired without targeting to play.

Mehrpack
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cyker on December 27, 2007, 11:03:33 am
Also having troubles! :(

Downloading all zipfiles again JIC. Error is:

Quote
---------------------------
Error!
---------------------------
Error: Invalid subsystem name.

In sexpression: ( when
   ( <
      ( distance-ship-subsystem
         "Alpha 2"
         "LRSS Columbia"
         "fighterbay"
      )
      50
   )
   ( end-mission )
)
(Error appears to be: fighterbay)
File:J:\src\cvs\fs2_open_3_6_9.rc7dot9x\code\Mission\MissionParse.cpp
Line: 5792
[This filename points to the location of a file on the computer that built this executable]

Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------

[ This info is in the clipboard so you can paste it somewhere now ]


Use Ok to break into Debugger, Cancel exits.

---------------------------
OK   Cancel   
---------------------------

Found errant ships.tbl in main FS2/data folder and removed, but same error occurs.

Am using Launcher v5.5, have tried fs2_open_3_6_9-7dot9x.exe and fs2_open_3_6_9.exe with same results.

CLI is "-mod TVWP -spec -glow -env -jpgtga -mipmap -2d_poof -missile_lighting -dualscanlines -targetinfo -rearm_timer -3dwarp -warp_flash -snd_preload -alpha_env "

Will test again once downlads are complete (DL'ing at 50KB/s so will take a several mins...)

Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 27, 2007, 11:23:21 am
Are you sure I have to delete/move textures, icons and other files from my root FS2 folder?

They shouldn't be in your root FS2 folder anyway! They should be in mod folders!!

They're just innocent maps and icons. Anyway, removing everything from my root FS2 folder didn't help. I get the same error! :mad:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cyker on December 27, 2007, 11:36:48 am
Disregard my problem - I R st00pid.

The root vp wasn't decompressed...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jake2447 on December 27, 2007, 12:03:33 pm
Just finished the campaign.  It was great!  I can't wait until the next chapter.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on December 27, 2007, 12:52:13 pm
Disregard my problem as well - it fixed itself.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: IceyJones on December 27, 2007, 04:38:28 pm
great work so far i´ve played....great ideas and great work in realizing these :)
liked the normal projectile weapons! thats fun but also very hard......also that you do not have scanners.......
i feel like the guys in WW1 in their flying shoe boxes ;)

Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Darius on December 28, 2007, 05:33:38 am
I got the missing model error box as well, but it didn't kill the game, so I just kept pressing OK until I reached the briefing stages.

It might have something to do with the briefing icons.

I had a great time playing this, btw. It really made me feel like I was flying around in the dark ages of space travel.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: The Spac on December 28, 2007, 05:44:43 am
Found it a little dissapointing, no shields, and no afterburners to try and evade attacks, if I had 2 on my it'd always get really hard because I had no tools to evade. Feels like a shell of a game with very little going for it, gameplay wise.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Harbinger of DOOM on December 28, 2007, 05:46:44 am
hi,
a question, is this normal that i can targeting anything? i have played the first 3 mission and its wired without targeting to play.

Mehrpack
Yes, it's perfectly normal.

BTW Spac, if you can't evade, you should practice more often.


Or your could head for your wingmen and let them handle it.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on December 28, 2007, 06:06:54 am
Indeed, The Spac. As far as I can tell, by taking place before and during the Terran-Vasudan War, this is supposed to give you the feeling that you're just a vulnerable pilot, a tiny part of a bigger game. Of course you must achieve certain things but you are not required to change the destiny of the human race. This being completely different from FS and FS2, where you're always a mother****ing superhero who can and must singlehandedly take out two Ravanas with one eye closed.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Zombimode on December 28, 2007, 07:01:41 am
no shields
Shield technology was stolen from the Shivans during the Great War. Since the Unification War plays about 20 years BEFORE the first shivan incursion, what do you expect?
Quote
and no afterburners
Again, the spacecraft isnt as developed as it is in the Great War Era. And even then, not every fighter had afterburners (ok, the Anubis was at that time an outdated desing).
Besides, at least the Shrike and the Mustang Alpha have afterburners.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: BlackDove on December 28, 2007, 07:22:33 am
Actually, I find the limited afterburners that run out after a few seconds of use a cock-up.

I get it, you pulled it off in the engine, congrats, but you've created a massive loophole in where you'll need to introduce (or just generate the obvious disparity) the new magical engines that run on TIME and not fuel (as are the engines of Freespace). That kind of crap suspends disbelief.

No shields and no targeting, I'm all for that though. Rock on.

Spoiler:
I really liked the FS1's no shields > few mission > shields to the no targeting > few missions >  targeting in this one.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Lt.Cannonfodder on December 28, 2007, 07:42:14 am
I completely deny that I had anything whatsoever to do with that outro cutscene  :P
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: The Spac on December 28, 2007, 09:22:44 am
I am all for the no shields and no targeting, the having to sit behind my slow ass ai players while I wait for them to engage just so I don't get blown apart just annoying from a gameplay perspective.

The ships with afterburners didn't seem to work for me then, when I used them it would still sit at 75.

As for evading without afterburners what do you want me to do just fire at 1 ai so it goes into defensive for a sec and then turn and fire tat the other one and turn back so the one on my tail doesn't shoot again and fire a few pot shots. To me this just seems frustrating. Although I still understand what your trying to do I just found it frustrating.

Also I hate how the firepoints are so spread out.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: The Spac on December 28, 2007, 09:26:07 am
Indeed, The Spac. As far as I can tell, by taking place before and during the Terran-Vasudan War, this is supposed to give you the feeling that you're just a vulnerable pilot, a tiny part of a bigger game. Of course you must achieve certain things but you are not required to change the destiny of the human race. This being completely different from FS and FS2, where you're always a mother****ing superhero who can and must singlehandedly take out two Ravanas with one eye closed.

I'm sure most of us can do it with both eyes closed these days. :-P
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: The Spac on December 28, 2007, 09:31:50 am
I was working on a campaign called "The other guys" which was a Vasudan story that went from pre freespace 1 (slightly) to the end of vasuda prime and in my pre freespace 1 missions I had the player originally starting in an anubis and after play testing it a bit I found it just didn't end up being fun so I changed it.

I will be trying to continue your campaign in the coming days, cause I like to complete a whole campaign before giving the final verdicts. :)

Might get back to work on that fs1port campaign too we'll see.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 28, 2007, 10:02:22 am
Only the Falcon has no afterburner.  The Shrike and Falcon projectile streams converge at 300m in front of the firing ship, mitigating the wide spaced gunpoint issue.


Actually, I find the limited afterburners that run out after a few seconds of use a cock-up.

I get it, you pulled it off in the engine, congrats, but you've created a massive loophole in where you'll need to introduce (or just generate the obvious disparity) the new magical engines that run on TIME and not fuel (as are the engines of Freespace). That kind of crap suspends disbelief.


I had thought of a cunning plan for the "how come afterburners use fuel now but not later" thing.  A major advance of the Angel was to be the removal of the restricted afterburners.

I completely deny that I had anything whatsoever to do with that outro cutscene  :P

How about a nice fresh one, then?? :) :) :)

Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on December 28, 2007, 10:14:39 am
I'm sure most of us can do it with both eyes closed these days. :-P
If you can do it one eye closed, you'll complete the mission. If you can do it with both eyes closed, you'll get a medal.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on December 28, 2007, 11:40:08 am
I see what The Spac is getting at, but I really enjoyed the primitive ships and being forced to work with few capabilities. For once having a hostile on my six really felt like a threat. I agree it would've gotten frustrating if it had lasted longer, but targeting (and that oh-so-useful lead indicator) came along at just the right moment.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ShadowGorrath on December 28, 2007, 11:59:37 am
One question - why do the ships have such bad textures ?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: MarsNeedsWomen on December 28, 2007, 12:38:13 pm
I liked it. The ships had a steam punk look to them. I also enjoyed playing without things like targeting, though it was a relief when I finally got it. Can't way to play the rest.  :pimp:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 28, 2007, 01:41:15 pm
Are you sure I have to delete/move textures, icons and other files from my root FS2 folder?

They shouldn't be in your root FS2 folder anyway! They should be in mod folders!!

They're just innocent maps and icons. Anyway, removing everything from my root FS2 folder didn't help. I get the same error! :mad:

*cough* *cough*

:nervous:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on December 28, 2007, 02:05:04 pm
Go to your FreeSpace 2 directory.  Then type

dir /s > listing.txt

Then attach listing.txt.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 28, 2007, 02:13:17 pm
?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 28, 2007, 03:41:54 pm
He means go to run, then CMD.

Then enter CD C:\Games\Freespace 2 (or whatever your root FS2 directory is), then enter Goober5000's string.

You should get something like this in your FS2 root folder.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: mr.WHO on December 28, 2007, 04:12:36 pm
NIIIIIIIICEEEEEE !!!!!
Seriously, piece of art. Very good feel of low tech (hell, I thought that the begining of FS1 was "low tech").

BTW  :nervous: Somethings tells me that were gonna hate bomber duty in full release. when I was intecepting hostile bombers, they launched their warheads. Those were only a bit faster than bombers. I shot them down...effect?  bomber that launched it was down to 30% of hull by warhead explosion  :ick:


EDIT:
Falcon fighter looks a bit like BSG Viper mk.7  :D
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 28, 2007, 04:37:33 pm
He means go to run, then CMD.

My computer doesn't speak English(to a certain extent) and translating literally won't help, everything has different names(not the exact translation of their English version).
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on December 28, 2007, 04:43:16 pm
XP? 'Run' is the thing directly above the 'Log off' and 'Shut down' buttons in your start menu. And I think Cobra means typing 'CMD' to the field that appears after that, and pressing Enter. At least that's what I'd do.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 28, 2007, 04:56:36 pm
Ah, "Esegui"(that means "Execute"...I told you, the names are completely different :doubt:)

I don't think I can perform that action. It always starts with "C:\Documents and Settings\FRA>", my FS2 directory is elsewhere and I can't correct that path. Oh well...should I move the whole folder? Do I risk something? Everything is set this way since the last summer, when my computer lost video, audio and XP's stability.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 28, 2007, 05:16:58 pm
/me headdesks

Do whatever the Italian equivalent is to what I just showed you.

If you don't know what that is, there's always Google.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 28, 2007, 05:22:41 pm
I opened it but I don't think I can get that listing.txt due to problems my computer is having since this summer.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on December 28, 2007, 05:48:24 pm
It always starts with "C:\Documents and Settings\FRA>", my FS2 directory is elsewhere and I can't correct that path.
Don't you know how to use the command prompt / terminal / console?

cd\
cd games
cd freespace2
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on December 28, 2007, 05:57:34 pm
I don't know if I can do it correctly, my computer is all subfolders of subfolders of folders, I can't apparently select the proper one with CMD(I tried one more time a few minutes ago).
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mad Bomber on December 28, 2007, 07:27:52 pm
Found it a little dissapointing, no shields, and no afterburners to try and evade attacks, if I had 2 on my it'd always get really hard because I had no tools to evade. Feels like a shell of a game with very little going for it, gameplay wise.

All of them have afterburners, except the Falcon and Atlas.  :confused:

I admit, tho, piloting a Falcon requires quite a bit of patience. I never chose it when I didn't have to.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 29, 2007, 02:05:13 am
Just a couple of issues I notice, the Shrike doesn't have an eyepoint so I can't use my hat to look around, and on
Spoiler:
Sunny Day the AI took out the transports before the last wave of fighters, yet command still told me to take out the now-deceased transports at the end of the mission.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: jr2 on December 29, 2007, 02:39:34 am
I don't know if I can do it correctly, my computer is all subfolders of subfolders of folders, I can't apparently select the proper one with CMD(I tried one more time a few minutes ago).

What directory is your Freespace in?  I will then tell you exactly what to type.  (It's in my sig, under Post FS2 tree, but I'll type instructions specifically for you.)  ;)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 29, 2007, 05:36:54 am
Sillinesses mar what would have been great.

Being unable to lock and track a target; this is damnably stupid. It's a capablity that any fighter aircraft today has. I get why it was done, but you should have thought of a better way; messed with the interface to remove some of the normal target data we get, for example, and/or removed the "Aim Here" aid. (Or allowed it only in a mode similar to Wing Commander 2's single target track one.)

I've noticed a distinct tendancy for the landing AI to end up crashing into something and having to go around on the Exos. Apparently it doesn't like landing more than a couple of ships at a time, though it tries to do more.

Somebody forgot to put the Mustang Alpha and Mustang Beta techroom entries up once they come into service with the LR. (Or maybe they should have been up since the beginning, since they were apparently already in service with the UNE and I sincerely think LR intelligence would know about them!)

There's absolutely no way you can introduce engines that run on time, replacing engines that run on fuel.

Watch me.

Pre-unlimited use versions used a second set of thrusters with limited fuel, or a special higher-performance fuel for the existing set. However the newer design does away with that, and instead uses a capacitor-based system to temporarily push the electromagnetic containment fields of the fusion drive up to higher power levels, which pushes the stuff coming out the back faster, which makes you go faster. All it takes is electricity, which you're generating already.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: BlackDove on December 29, 2007, 02:29:21 pm
You watch me. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,51190.msg1034728.html#new)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Tinman on December 29, 2007, 03:55:13 pm
very nice! i really enjoyed it  :yes:

very promising  :nod:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Solatar on December 30, 2007, 01:48:21 pm
I remember way back in the day when the Unification War (the entire thing) WAS going to be the demo. :p
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on December 30, 2007, 02:26:30 pm
So this is a demo of the demo. :p
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: wuu on December 30, 2007, 03:42:19 pm
Very promising . But the only thing thats bugs me is with the target system.
First you had nothing than anything.

What I mean is now you can use autospeed, autotarget, have scanners, see the health of the other fighter craft and the sub systems, the way marker....etc

It makes no sense to get everything at ones and not to have a primitive target system.

It should be possible to have a Limited target system at the beginning, that shows you only what craft it is, the distance and speed without the other stuff.

This would make more sense in space combat where u must take care of your ammo, fuel
and the effectice range of your ammo shells.
The other system should be add in the other chapters and in the Final product the apollo.

No offense, its all great so far. Well my bad english! I hope you get what i mean.

Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 30, 2007, 04:19:06 pm
Yeah, I found that transition to be really strange as well.  Does seem to be too modern of a system to get it all at once like that.  I half expected certain things about it to still be different, cruder, but was surprised to find it all fully functional.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 30, 2007, 09:47:25 pm
I found that transition to be weird too... In fact I stopped there since my wingmen all died in the first 5 seconds. :wtf:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: BlackDove on December 30, 2007, 11:00:55 pm
I was satisfied with the illusion. After all, you don't really know how long the thing has been in the works, and while it would've been logical for it to not show everything as it does in retail - really, who gives a damn? You got the targeting, rejoice.

It's not like we didn't mimic the Shivan shields in exactly the same manner they've had them for thousands of years in the course of 2-3 missions as well.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 30, 2007, 11:23:22 pm
Yeah but if they'd asked for our input I bet we would have told them the shields should have developed over time too :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 04:25:29 am
The MX-50 tech description does mention a "deflector array," so Shivan shields may have been examined prior to the Shivan's arrival.

This is what it actually says:

Quote from: MX-50 Tech Description
Early experiments with energy based defenses like the deflector array at Ross 128 have shown that this weapon is exceedingly weak against anything besides steel based targets.

Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Koth on December 31, 2007, 05:21:24 am
This also means that if the Shivans didn't appear to unite Terrans and Vasudans the Terrrans probably would have won the TVW with all that stuff they had in development.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 05:25:44 am
The main FreeSpace campaign is a mostly Terran-centered campaign and if it was more Vasudan centered, the Vasudans would probably have revealed a lot more of their own stuff that they had in development, like the Thoth.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: BlackDove on December 31, 2007, 05:33:06 am
I meant gameplay wise, not historically. You see shields on the shivans in one mission while you're just a bare hull, 2-3 missions later, you're utilizing the same thing they are.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 06:56:07 am
Not to mention that the Vasudans are still using An00bises and ML-16s/VLL-9s at this point. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ARSPR on December 31, 2007, 07:38:36 am
A model UV error.

Take a look at the attached screenshot or, better, open F3 lab and see it by yourself.



[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 08:19:47 am
Yeah I saw that too.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ShadowGorrath on December 31, 2007, 08:59:35 am
Most of the fighters ( Mustang Alpha the most ) have bad textures for some reason  :wtf:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 09:02:32 am
I agree.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 31, 2007, 09:17:00 am
Unless you add the enhanced pack, the fighters will only have some low resolution pcx files.

An issue with a project that has been in process as long as this one is that many of its assets are four years old or even more.  Likewise for the idea about a gradual increase in sensor capabilities -- SCP did not support such a feature until the advent of scripting, which was not available until recently.  Ultimately it was time to fish or cut bait, and so we have this release of Chapter 1.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 31, 2007, 09:38:33 am
I also ran across one of the freighters that seemed to have some terrible bounding box issues.  I could fly through 75% of the ship.  Don't remember which one though, I'll have to look it up later if no one else has noticed this.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 09:48:15 am
Wow I just noticed that the Sagittarius is the same model as INFSCP's Lenaeus (but with different textures). I guess they can't be considered to be in the same universe anymore though. :(
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 31, 2007, 09:57:08 am
Wow I just noticed that the Sagittarius is the same model as INFSCP's Lenaeus (but with different textures). I guess they can't be considered to be in the same universe anymore though. :(

The non existence of the Zagreus in the TVWP universe already put paid to that.  Likewise note the Inferno fighter 'Enceladus' -- which is a version of the Mustang Alpha closer to the original V concept art.  There seems to have been some sharing of models between the two projects ages ago.

I also ran across one of the freighters that seemed to have some terrible bounding box issues.  I could fly through 75% of the ship.  Don't remember which one though, I'll have to look it up later if no one else has noticed this.

The only freighter in Chapter 1 is the Chronos, which just uses the original V model unchanged.  Are you sure it wasn't a different class?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 10:15:56 am
The non existence of the Zagreus in the TVWP universe already put paid to that.  Likewise note the Inferno fighter 'Enceladus' -- which is a version of the Mustang Alpha closer to the original V concept art.  There seems to have been some sharing of models between the two projects ages ago.  Are you sure it wasn't a different class?

The Zag could have been commissioned during the 14 year war but retired for ineffectiveness or something. Like the Thanatos and Savior.

Anyway, the Sagittarius is definitely the Leneaus. I'm sure of it.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ShadowGorrath on December 31, 2007, 10:43:45 am
I also ran across one of the freighters that seemed to have some terrible bounding box issues.  I could fly through 75% of the ship.  Don't remember which one though, I'll have to look it up later if no one else has noticed this.

You mean the carrier that you usually dock with .

Unless you add the enhanced pack, the fighters will only have some low resolution pcx files.

I have the enhanced pack and the textures look bad . Pretty low quality ones . I only enjoyed the idea , gameply , story and "atmosphere" , but not the ships .
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 31, 2007, 11:38:26 am
Hmph.  There is actually a problem with missing files in the enhanced vp.  I assembled these vps when 3000 miles from home on a work laptop.  Looks like none of the internal testers noticed.  I'll reassemble the package.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 31, 2007, 12:10:52 pm
Transport, something following a path I think.  It was on the mission where you have to escort the ships while they charge up their drives for the next jump, where the miners take over the escort.

edit:  confusing typo
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ShadowGorrath on December 31, 2007, 12:58:07 pm
Transport, something following a patch I think.  It was on the mission where you have to escort the ships while they charge up their drives for the next jump, where the miners take over the escort.

And you had to dock with it for the mission to end ? It's the carrier . I noticed the same thing - ghost ships . Everyone can fly through them .
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on December 31, 2007, 01:41:32 pm
Apparently, I saw dead people without realizing it. :wtf:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Axellink on December 31, 2007, 01:48:36 pm
Not knocking anything, but is it possible to have a all in one installer?  I think it would be much easier to just have one large file to download etc.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 31, 2007, 01:58:30 pm
Not the carrier, I'll have to look it up later or something when I get back from work.  Carrier might have fly through issues too though, I'm not saying I tried or anything.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 31, 2007, 02:00:35 pm
I just realized, the thing that I'm now most baffled by is the lack of ST:R.  That some sort of upcoming present?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on December 31, 2007, 02:06:14 pm
Okay, I have fixed the issues with the enhanced vp.  Redownload using the first post in this thread.  This should resolve the Kestrel cockpit issue, and fix some of the other missing maps.  I'll have a look at the ships, but in the absence of an active modeler, there may not be anything I can do.

Not knocking anything, but is it possible to have a all in one installer?  I think it would be much easier to just have one large file to download etc.
An all in one file will be provided once all the missions are complete.

I just realized, the thing that I'm now most baffled by is the lack of ST:R.  That some sort of upcoming present?

ST:R has nothing to do with TVWP. :)  Voice acting for it is still in progress.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Anaz on December 31, 2007, 05:25:06 pm
It's spelled Anazeron now, damnit!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on December 31, 2007, 05:46:21 pm
ST:R has nothing to do with TVWP. :)  Voice acting for it is still in progress.

Well I'm glad for that.  There's 5 or more posts just right up near the top of this forum that say that TVWP had been on hold due to ST:R still needing voice actors.  Glad we didn't have to keep waiting on that to get this little piece of gaming goodness.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on December 31, 2007, 09:24:44 pm
Well maybe the people in internal noticed that the end of the chapter wouldn't be released for another one hundred years so released just the first act of the chapter instead.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on January 01, 2008, 09:17:30 am
Heh, only four missions need to be FREDed from scratch now yo finish Chapter 1.  The rest is playtesting.  I hope to have it all wrapped up in a couple of months.  Future chapters is another matter, though. I am thinking of a new approach to those to ensure that releases can come at a decent pace.  This will require discussion in the internal.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ShadowGorrath on January 01, 2008, 03:40:07 pm
The new , "fixed" , enhancment vp makes the Mustang Alpha and Mustang Beta invisible , with only the blue glowmaps seen .
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on January 01, 2008, 03:51:13 pm
What settings are you using?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v106/NelsonAndBronte/FS2/MustangAlpha.jpg)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on January 01, 2008, 04:28:33 pm
It only seems to do that in the tech room.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Pnakotus on January 02, 2008, 07:09:56 pm
It's a bit nBSG for my taste, but it's fun nonetheless.  The AI appears to believe 'turning on glide mode and spinning like a top' is an evasive maneuver, however.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 02, 2008, 07:42:57 pm
It's a bit nBSG for my taste, but it's fun nonetheless.  The AI appears to believe 'turning on glide mode and spinning like a top' is an evasive maneuver, however.

I saw a few guys doing that, then I said to myself "Do I look that cool?"
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on January 02, 2008, 08:03:43 pm
That is an evasive maneuver!

Does TVWP support glide? I wasn't aware.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on January 02, 2008, 08:14:26 pm
It's not a question of the mod, it's the build that you're running.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 02, 2008, 10:11:54 pm
Cobra, doesn't it also have to be enabled in the ships.tbl?  That comes with the mod, doesn't it?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on January 03, 2008, 12:28:55 am
No, from what I can see the stuff in the tables is for lateral thrusters.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 03, 2008, 01:25:08 am
It's in a table somewhere, or else all ships in every mod would have glide when using a glide-capable build.  It's more than just the build that has to have it, the mod has to specifically enable it.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Dysko on January 03, 2008, 10:06:00 am
Just finished the demo... very good :yes:

I found quite funny the "Acquisition" mission
Spoiler:
The one where you have to capture the Jovian gas miners.
In that mission, I captured Torino and destroyed Como, Padova, Genova, Imola and Savona. After that mission, I really had to say "Milano rocks!" :lol:

BTW, I have the Mustang textures problem too. And also in-mission, not only in the tech-room/F3. :nervous:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Prophet on January 03, 2008, 03:18:03 pm
If Mobius is still having troubles with the error message... I had the same thing, but once I enabled jpg/tga textures it worked like a charm.


Now the feedback. I liked it a lot. I especially liked the lack of shields. And weapons with limited ammo. And the the lack of shields. I also liked the finite afterburner reserves, because IMO infinite afterburners are as much a cheat as shields. And I also liked the lack of shields, which made combat interesting.

Also the no targetting thing was interesting. At first it was a bit annoying when I had trouble figuring out where to go and where to dock. And hostiles kinda flew in my face when there wasn't a distance indicator on them. But when I got used to it, I liked it. It actually improved my situational awareness as I had to keep an eye on my bearings and where everyone was, because I didn't have targetting computers to do it for me. That was a ballsy move, my hat's off for you...
After getting the sensors it was like OMG! HAXX!!! Killing poor pirates at max range... It was a kind of a bummer. Made combat easier. :doubt:

There wasn't a lot of chance to take on capital ships. But during the bridge shooting, I don't think the cruiser shot at me at all... I haven't really tested the capships abilities yet thought. Just talking about campaign experiences here. I did like the noise the cap ships made when shooting. But it could use some more work. Like a real loud BOOOM BOOOM BOOOM so everyone knows big guns are singing. To really distinguish them from the peashooters on fighters... I'd like capships to be credible threats. Like they were in FS1 before getting shields.


Overall... Really great work. :yes:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on January 03, 2008, 09:02:36 pm
Hm, I thought the capship guns did go BOOM BOOM.  I'll look into it.  Thanks. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 03, 2008, 09:47:13 pm
You know guys, I was kind of disappointed with a few of the anti-cap bombs. IMO they were just scaled-down versions of the Tsunami and Harbinger. I thought you would have a few more original weapons, like a swarm missile or something. Note that Hornets can do tremendous damage to cruisers.

In my own mod, the Terrans used swarm missiles to do damage to cruisers. I find this far more plausible than simply scaled down versions of FS2 torpedoes.

On the other hand, I did like those Infyrno-like cap weapons. "Firestorm" or something. They looked primitive, as opposed to the plasma weapons used by the capital ships in FS1 FS2.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Cobra on January 03, 2008, 10:39:15 pm
Speaking of capital ship weapons, It was hard to see but it looked like there was a black square where the effects should be. I took some screenshots; lemme see if I can find 'em.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Zombimode on January 04, 2008, 05:37:59 am
About cap ship weopons: I had the impression that most if not all of the capship guns wont fire at all. In those missions with enemy carriers I could fly directly in front of the carrier without getting shot at all. In the mission where you capture the gasminers I noticed only one weapon of the damocles: its rocketlauncher. But there seems to be a bug with this rocketlauncher. About half the time the damocles will hit itself with the rocket.
You can test it: just load this mission and stay a bit behind while your wingman will engage the damocles. You can see some explosions on the damocles (and it get pretty damaged). They are NOT caused by your wingman.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Prophet on January 04, 2008, 08:29:06 am
About cap ship weopons: I had the impression that most if not all of the capship guns wont fire at all. In those missions with enemy carriers I could fly directly in front of the carrier without getting shot at all. In the mission where you capture the gasminers I noticed only one weapon of the damocles: its rocketlauncher. But there seems to be a bug with this rocketlauncher. About half the time the damocles will hit itself with the rocket.
This did happen to me too. Both passive enemy caps, and the damocles shooting weird... I didn't say anything because I only played trought it once and wasn't really keeping an eye on them...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 04, 2008, 09:05:40 am
Yeah, it looked like the Damocles did more damage to itself than anyone else did, or than it did to anyone else.  Seemed like more than 3/4 of the missiles hit itself.  I also do remember flying by the carrier and wondering why none of its turrets were doing much of anything.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 04, 2008, 04:42:48 pm
The carriers fired Fusion Mortar-ish weapons for me. But I thought the Damocles was trying to do some kind of primitive version of space flak while hitting itself.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Prophet on January 05, 2008, 03:24:52 am
Yes, anticap weapons were indeed fired. But the fighters never had anything to afraid of. That's pretty passive for a capship. And the damocles seemd to firing a version of Infyrno missile. But it didn't seem to track at all. Just fly for a while and making a big boom, with no child munitions that were noticeable...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Ghost on January 05, 2008, 01:17:21 pm
Aside from the bugs that have already been posted, all I have to say is MORE MORE MORE. I want to hunt down those dirty Vasudans.

The biggest bug I have is the Mustang texture issue, and also yeah, the Damocles had some strange flak-looking issue.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ARSPR on January 07, 2008, 03:35:23 am
Hey I've just discovered a worm-hole in the space-time continuous ...

At least in TVWPch1m02.fs2 (Sunny day), a lot of ships come from the future with active shields. I WANT ONE OF THEM  :lol:


EDITED. A note to the modding team

Please run the game using 3.6.9. debug build, (remember newest builds don't give warnings). Just during game loading you get some table errors you should fix.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 07, 2008, 09:07:47 am
What?  New builds don't give warnings?  Dang, I guess that means I do have a problem with the tables I've been working on.  Thought it was just a problem with 3.6.9.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on January 07, 2008, 09:32:50 am
That is an evasive maneuver!

Does TVWP support glide? I wasn't aware.

Your ship is actually doing that as well, you just don't notice it. The TVWP ships are meant to be hard to handle and have high damping values, which leads to "sliding".

Quote

At least in TVWPch1m02.fs2 (Sunny day), a lot of ships come from the future with active shields. I WANT ONE OF THEM 


That would be my fault. You're probably talking about the last group of pirates that arrive. Most of the crappy missions are mine. Slips like that are a Mustang trademark.

Quote
Yes, anticap weapons were indeed fired. But the fighters never had anything to afraid of. That's pretty passive for a capship. And the damocles seemd to firing a version of Infyrno missile. But it didn't seem to track at all. Just fly for a while and making a big boom, with no child munitions that were noticeable...

TVWP anti-fighter armament is relatively weak. Think of the difference between FS1 blob turrets and FS2 AAA beams. There's a similar technological gap here. Also remember that the Damocles is the oldest warship in the game. You don't get a chance to do so in this mod, but later you can make bombing runs on an Atropos (the Fenris-looking "frigate")... you'll notice the difference.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 07, 2008, 10:22:52 am
That would be my fault. You're probably talking about the last group of pirates that arrive. Most of the crappy missions are mine. Slips like that are a Mustang trademark.

No wonder you cheated for you MT audition mission. :P
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on January 07, 2008, 10:25:11 am
Hm? I never got into MT, just sent them a sample mission and never got a reply...  (wonder why) :p
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 07, 2008, 10:33:50 am
Hm? I never got into MT, just sent them a sample mission and never got a reply...  (wonder why) :p

Yunnowhy?

Because I knew exactly what you did. You opened up sm1-01a.fsm from FreeSpace 1 and then altered it so it would work in FreeSpace 2. Then you added some stuff, changed it around a bit and thought that you could get away with it.

Well guess what? You didn't!! Ahahahaha!! I am so smrat!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 07, 2008, 11:28:52 am
TVWP anti-fighter armament is relatively weak. Think of the difference between FS1 blob turrets and FS2 AAA beams. There's a similar technological gap here. Also remember that the Damocles is the oldest warship in the game. You don't get a chance to do so in this mod, but later you can make bombing runs on an Atropos (the Fenris-looking "frigate")... you'll notice the difference.

Regardless of weakness or not, it doesn't seem to make sense for it to be shooting itself more than the enemy.  That just seems absurd.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: jr2 on January 07, 2008, 02:06:54 pm
Well guess what? You didn't!! Ahahahaha!! I am so smrat!

IDK whether to just ROFL, or to ROFL and siggify that.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on January 07, 2008, 02:11:16 pm
Regardless of weakness or not, it doesn't seem to make sense for it to be shooting itself more than the enemy.  That just seems absurd.

Yes, it's a problem that we've talked about on the internal. Just one of those hot potato things that noone's got around to. We figured that it wasn't much of a problem during the initial release as none of the missions make this bug too noticeable. But sharp eyes, Chief.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 07, 2008, 02:12:07 pm
IDK whether to just ROFL, or to ROFL and siggify that.

The misspelling was intentional.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on January 07, 2008, 08:58:15 pm
TVWP-missions and models fixed and reuploaded to solve Mustang texture issue and the shielded super fighter problem in mission 2.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 09, 2008, 10:25:01 am
Random note; TVWP capital ships have the same insane spin inducing engine wash thing going that some of the Inferno R1 ships did. Might want to look at the fighter moment of inertia stuff and the engine wash values.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on January 09, 2008, 10:30:24 am
It's not a bug, it's a feature... TVWP era fighters are supposed to be very light, puny, and difficult to handle compared to later technology.

Actually, I never heard of the exact reason for this change, but I prefer it that way. Even with engine wash introduced in FreeSpace 2, it feels odd to be just slightly buffetted by those massive-looking engines. It should throw you around somewhat.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 09, 2008, 01:10:44 pm
The problem is it can really, seriously screw with the player. I don't mind getting tossed around like all get out, but when you get caught in an engine wash that's turning you end for end every two seconds you're just ****ed. There has to be a way to make you shake without trapping you in a spin, which is its own form of silliness.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: jr2 on January 09, 2008, 02:02:35 pm
It should flip you end over end like it does now unless you have a very firm hand on the stick and counter it, IMHO ;)  In which case you should be buffeted like an ultralight aircraft in a gale.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on January 10, 2008, 11:58:40 am
There's really no way to get out of the exhaust buffeting other than simply letting the stick go dead and let the ship pass you by. The idea is that you're not supposed to get in the exhaust in the first place.

Quote
There has to be a way to make you shake without trapping you in a spin, which is its own form of silliness.

I'm sure there is. Just like everything else has a mass value, the ammount of "whack" you get from thrust is determined by something similar. But I like it this way.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 11, 2008, 02:59:32 am
There's really no way to get out of the exhaust buffeting other than simply letting the stick go dead and let the ship pass you by. The idea is that you're not supposed to get in the exhaust in the first place.

Hitting your burners normally gets you out fairly quickly, though doing it under normal power is an exercise in futility. Which is part of why this is A Bad Thing in TVWP; your burners don't recharge.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Prophet on January 11, 2008, 08:37:57 am
Since when has it been necessary to fly in to huge engines. Common sense tells you that's a bad idea. Stay off the engine burn and you'll be fine. It's really that simple... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: BlackDove on January 11, 2008, 08:50:00 am
I liked the engine wash ****ing you up.

Personally I would've preffered that and intense hull degradation, really punish people for flying near the stuff.

It would have made more sense if retail had it like that - I know I usually attack any big ship when I'm bombing from its engine side because there are usually no turrets or counter bomber mechanisms there which makes it easy to slip past a few cy's or helios'. I would have preferred it if the engines ripped you to pieces for trying to attack from there, and also nuke any incoming missiles coming from that direction.

I mean if you're losing hull, it should be damn sure the missiles lost theirs and pretty much disintegrated on their path if they were exposed to it enough.

But that's all... academic. The engine wash is great in TVWP IMO.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ARSPR on January 11, 2008, 11:32:59 am
What?  New builds don't give warnings?  Dang, I guess that means I do have a problem with the tables I've been working on.  Thought it was just a problem with 3.6.9.
But as Taylor has pointed, newest XT debug builds don't give pop-up warnings yet, but you can see all of them in fs2_open.log. REALLY, REALLY handy.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 11, 2008, 12:00:01 pm
If only windows had a function like tail for *nix...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 22, 2008, 09:22:48 pm
 :jaw:

... ... ... ... ... ... ...
(Downloads files)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mongoose on January 23, 2008, 01:24:48 am
Gah, I never did post in here after playing through this.  I freakin' love this thing, guys.  Just like WCS and BTRL, you've managed to create a completely different combat feel that's a hell of a lot of fun.  The lack of sensors was a great call; for the first time, I felt like I had to seriously pay attention to everything that was going on.  The fishtailing style of flight was awesome, too; between that and the ballistic weapons, it had a very WWII-ish feel to it for some reason.  I'm digging the storyline and character work; I can't wait to see what you guys have lined up next. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on January 23, 2008, 06:22:48 pm
Thanks for the comments. :)

Lightspeed spent a lot of time tweaking the flight characteristics of all the fighters and bombers, saying that people would appreciate the fresh approach to dogfighting.  And he was right. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 24, 2008, 12:26:40 pm
The thing is, it's not that fresh, and this a good thing. If you play Earth Defence or BtRL, it's totally different dynamics and it just doesn't feel like FreeSpace at all. Here you kind of skated the line, but it was still enough like Freespace that you could reasonably claim to be a FreeSpace mod instead of a TC.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 24, 2008, 04:00:53 pm
Yeah if you want radically different, try the Minbari Project...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 25, 2008, 05:00:27 am
Uh, the Minbari. :wtf:
I'm going to play it. NOW.

Oh, whee, no targeting system for the first few missions. :drevil:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 27, 2008, 08:01:20 am
A little off-topic, but about those Jovian gas miners. Does anybody know whether or not there is a way to use the damage arcing electricity stuff as a normal effect? It would look really good in between those arms where currently there is a crappy missile trail texture. If not, could it be implemented into the SCP? Like a toggle-damage-arc SEXP or something?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Woolie Wool on January 27, 2008, 09:51:43 am
Sorry, but I absolutely cannot tolerate the primitive sensors. I extracted all the missions and disabled primitive sensors in FRED after playing four times and being completely frustrated. With targeting, the game became a lot more reasonable. The fighter handling is interesting, the Shrike is surprisingly difficult to hit because its damping makes it move in multiple directions at once in hard maneuvers and it's not balanced by being a slow, wallowing pig like the Falcon.

The Atlases need to be slower. I know that they can barely turn, but if you're not in the prime place to intercept them, they are extremely difficult to catch. A bomber shouldn't outrun a Mustang Alpha on full AB. Just...no.

The capship weapons are useless. Completely useless. I don't even see why they build Damocles-class cruisers since they have only token weaponry and carry no fighters. Terran Turrets are actually quite scary in an unshielded fighter (if you get hit, that's 20% off your hull!). The Unification War turrets are so terrible that you can sit there and shoot at the Damocles' bridge in the gas miner mission and not notice it firing once.

The weapons are very nice and appropriately "primitive" feeling. Somehow the lead indicator works better for these guns than the FS1/2 energy guns. If I had any criticisms to make, I'd say the P-16 and P-22 don't carry enough rounds. Some missions are fairly difficult because of the threat of running out of ammo and there's no chance to get resupplied. Also, the P weapons should be classed as autocannons. Assault rifles are man-portable weapons using short cartridges that wouldn't make much of an impression on a fighter.:)

The Damocles tech description describes the Lunar Rebellion as being around 100 years ago. So what did they have for fighters then? Soyuz space capsules with a couple of missiles strapped to them?:P

This is a very interesting take on FreeSpace, although I couldn't stand the primitive sensors, Hopefully since the last couple of missions have full sensors, the rest of the campaign should have them too. I wonder how one of these fighters would stack up to the good old n00bis...:P
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on January 27, 2008, 11:29:17 am
I liked primitive sensors.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on January 27, 2008, 01:02:38 pm
Sorry, but I absolutely cannot tolerate the primitive sensors. I extracted all the missions and disabled primitive sensors in FRED after playing four times and being completely frustrated. With targeting, the game became a lot more reasonable. The fighter handling is interesting, the Shrike is surprisingly difficult to hit because its damping makes it move in multiple directions at once in hard maneuvers and it's not balanced by being a slow, wallowing pig like the Falcon.


Well, it's a matter of opinion. If you're willing to adapt then it can be a lot of fun.

Quote
The Atlases need to be slower. I know that they can barely turn, but if you're not in the prime place to intercept them, they are extremely difficult to catch. A bomber shouldn't outrun a Mustang Alpha on full AB. Just...no.


Matter of taste, I guess.

I don't have a problem with the bombers being fast- they have large engines and relatively small bomb loads compared to FS1/2 vessels. I didn't have a problem intercepting them either, just stay near the ship you're supposed to escort. This is especially important in UW where you have weak weapons versus bomber armor and shooting down bombs is critical.


Quote
The capship weapons are useless. Completely useless. I don't even see why they build Damocles-class cruisers since they have only token weaponry and carry no fighters. Terran Turrets are actually quite scary in an unshielded fighter (if you get hit, that's 20% off your hull!). The Unification War turrets are so terrible that you can sit there and shoot at the Damocles' bridge in the gas miner mission and not notice it firing once.

This has been brought up a few times before. The idea was that FS1 point defense is okay but FS2 point defense is quite powerful, so UW is "supposed" to be weaker than FS1 stuff. We also agreed to not use energy weapons, so no plasma turrets allowed.

Anyway, the Damocles is one of the weakest ships in the game, and it's meant to be- it's also the oldest design, according to the tech description. Later you'll be bombing frigates- those are somewhat tougher nuts to crack.

Quote
The weapons are very nice and appropriately "primitive" feeling. Somehow the lead indicator works better for these guns than the FS1/2 energy guns. If I had any criticisms to make, I'd say the P-16 and P-22 don't carry enough rounds. Some missions are fairly difficult because of the threat of running out of ammo and there's no chance to get resupplied. Also, the P weapons should be classed as autocannons. Assault rifles are man-portable weapons using short cartridges that wouldn't make much of an impression on a fighter.:)

Yeah, I don't agree with calling these guns "assault rifles", but oh well. There was a lot of crap that we meant to put in but was cut out due to time constraints. For example, we were going to have a LR science ship, like an austere Faustus.

Quote
The Damocles tech description describes the Lunar Rebellion as being around 100 years ago. So what did they have for fighters then? Soyuz space capsules with a couple of missiles strapped to them?:P

This is a very interesting take on FreeSpace, although I couldn't stand the primitive sensors, Hopefully since the last couple of missions have full sensors, the rest of the campaign should have them too. I wonder how one of these fighters would stack up to the good old n00bis...:P

The rest of the campaign will have complete sensors.  :p

The Unification War (UW) storyline appears to be loosely based on an obscure mid-90's book-made-video-game called "Rebel Moon Rising", depicting a lunar rebellion against the UN. The UW storyline looks rather UN-bashy, which wasn't my idea. Anyway, in Rebel Moon Rising there's no space combat, it's basically infantry combat on the moon.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on January 27, 2008, 01:56:15 pm
The Unification War (UW) storyline appears to be loosely based on an obscure mid-90's book-made-video-game called "Rebel Moon Rising", depicting a lunar rebellion against the UN. The UW storyline looks rather UN-bashy, which wasn't my idea. Anyway, in Rebel Moon Rising there's no space combat, it's basically infantry combat on the moon.
I've never read Rebel Moon Rising -- in fact, I wrote the UW story before I had even heard of it -- but it's on my list of books to read. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 27, 2008, 07:05:38 pm
I liked primitive sensors.

Agreed. My accuracy's horrid, but it's a no-cheat feature too. I like it.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Ole on January 27, 2008, 07:44:48 pm
I really liked the "no sensors", "limited ammunition", "limited afterburner" feeling. It was a different gameplay, yet one where I almost never thought "Oh no, how does this work?" but almost always "Yeah, I know how to do thios ... well, at least I think so".

And I really liked the missions. Got shot down in the 3rd but solved that after a while.

What I didn't like was the really fast acquisition of the sensor technology. One moment you're flying almost blind, trying to figure out if the guy next to you is friend or foe, next moment you kill off individual subsystems.

Really nice thing by the way was that there were almost no bugs for me. I actually counted two or three, which is quite good in my opinion.
Spoiler:
I still have to figure out if the missing background in the "Capture the gas miners" mission is a bug or not. Other than that there was an error message concerning a Medal of Valor and some kind of texture glitch at the Mustang B - which actually only affected the model in the target box iirc[/qspoiler]
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snaga on January 27, 2008, 08:23:50 pm
Yeah, I also enjoyed the features of this mod a lot. It has it´s own sinature with them, and really gives the feal of using some really old ships. Of course, I was despairing at first for the lack of the targeting system, but got to manage that. If there´s something I always wondered was how is it that you can identify which ship you have to escort without the targeting box. Now I know! ....... Darn hard! But seriously, I can´t wait for the rest of this mod, in my opinion it´s excellent. :yes:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Titan on January 31, 2008, 11:34:45 am
wait, so how do you install this? i can't wait to get home and try it, i love any pre-FS1 and FS1 era stuff
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 31, 2008, 11:37:31 am
It's just like any other mod, make a new folder for it in your FS directory, and extract all the VP files to that folder.  Then select that folder as a mod in the launcher and you're done.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 31, 2008, 11:39:15 am
wait, so how do you install this? i can't wait to get home and try it, i love any pre-FS1 and FS1 era stuff
It's just like any other mod, make a new folder for it in your FS directory, and extract all the VP files to that folder.  Then select that folder as a mod in the launcher and you're done.
That's right. But this time, do not make a mod.ini in the folder. TVWP has everything needed already and there's no need for anything from the mediavps or even the FSPort. Well, apart from purdier subspace effects maybe.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 31, 2008, 11:44:31 am
Which is why I didn't say to do that.  But, it can't hurt to do it if you don't specify any other mods in it.  It might be nice to have one for completeness with the launcher.  Have a link to the forums, project title, etc.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 31, 2008, 12:00:36 pm
Maybe something a little like this would work.

http://swc.fs2downloads.com/files/TVWP_mod_ini.7z (http://swc.fs2downloads.com/files/TVWP_mod_ini.7z)

As usual, if you don't have 7-zip (http://www.7-zip.org/), get it.  It's free as in freedom, not free as in beer.

Edit:  Fixed a missing ; in the mod.ini.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 31, 2008, 12:19:32 pm
Damn, you beat me to it. Well, if anyone wants, here's another one (http://koti.mbnet.fi/reiler/FunkyFreeSpaceStuff/tvwpmodini.zip). Comes with a lousier image and a different description.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 31, 2008, 12:46:16 pm
You also missed the Modname field     :P
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 31, 2008, 12:52:54 pm
Hmm. I didn't actually know there was such a thing. But ya-ha! You missed the semicolon after the Modname field  :P
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 31, 2008, 01:32:47 pm
Haha.  touche.

edit:  file in the link I posted is updated.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 31, 2008, 01:39:52 pm
Same here. I also 'borrowed' that picture you have.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on January 31, 2008, 01:46:47 pm
It was just made from their website, rescaled to 255 wide, then padded top and bottom with black to make it 255x112.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 31, 2008, 01:48:17 pm
Ya I know.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Titan on January 31, 2008, 02:27:57 pm
It's just like any other mod, make a new folder for it in your FS directory, and extract all the VP files to that folder.  Then select that folder as a mod in the launcher and you're done.

thanks. the fact that there was several files confused me.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Titan on January 31, 2008, 02:34:33 pm
ok, i downloaded all the files, and got this:

Error: Can't open model file <TerranDrone.pof>
File:J:\src\cvs\fs2_open_3_6_9.final\code\Model\ModelRead.cpp
Line: 1902
[This filename points to the location of a file on the computer that built this executable]

Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------


i understand that means the file is corrupted, in a bad directory,  or missing. what do i do?

EDIT: ok, this time i skipped tech room, and went right to the ready room, got this:

Error: Can't open model file <exos-main.pof>
File:J:\src\cvs\fs2_open_3_6_9.final\code\Model\ModelRead.cpp
Line: 1902
[This filename points to the location of a file on the computer that built this executable]

Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 31, 2008, 02:38:32 pm
1. Try downloading from a different mirror.
2. Make sure... actually, I suppose you put the files into their own mod folder, presumably named tvwp.
3. If you downloaded the normal maps vp, make sure you use one of the 3.6.10 builds or remove the normal map vp.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Titan on January 31, 2008, 02:39:09 pm
nvm, coulda swore i got the models, didn't trying again.

EDIT: i didn't get the normal maps, didn't know what HEAD was
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Titan on February 01, 2008, 01:01:37 pm
ok, just so i understand: this is pre-TV war, which translates into the demo is in the unification wars?

EDIT: and is there any way to turn on your sensors? its hard enough to see were your bullets are going, let alone trying to find out were you want them to go to.



btw, excellent work guys.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 01, 2008, 01:04:58 pm
Quote from: TVWP Website
Chapter 1: The Unification War

The year is 2313. Thanks to the development of intrasystem subspace jump drives and communications relays, Terrans have extended their reach throughout the solar system as never before. But with new opportunities come new risks, and no one can predict exactly what may happen on a given day. Fly as a new recruit to the Lunar Defense Force and defend the Lunar Republic from the growing threat of open war. Pirates, renegade factions, and natural phenomena will test your skills. But be prepared for a historic event that will change the fate of the human race forever...
Yes. Unification War.

And what are these 'sensors' you talk about? Whatever it is, we don't have 'em here at the Lunar Republic.
Not yet, anyways.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on February 01, 2008, 02:09:02 pm
EDIT: and is there any way to turn on your sensors? its hard enough to see were your bullets are going, let alone trying to find out were you want them to go to.

I think you misworded that statement.  It's no more difficult to see where your bullets are going now than in stock FS.  It might be more difficult to tell where your _target_ is going.  Bullets pretty much go straight, just like they always have.  I feel sorry for anyone who overly relied on the targeting reticle for aiming anyway, other than to have an idea of what direction the target is actually moving.  The lead distance is almost never close enough to rely on, especially when firing weapons with mixed velocities.  This mod is a great way to improve your aim.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 01, 2008, 02:55:48 pm
ok, just so i understand: this is pre-TV war, which translates into the demo is in the unification wars?

EDIT: and is there any way to turn on your sensors? its hard enough to see were your bullets are going, let alone trying to find out were you want them to go to.



btw, excellent work guys.

Targeting is disabled by primitive sensors. Rely on the radar and your eyes or hack the misisons.:)

I never got the hang of primitive sensors, maybe you'll have better luck.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on February 01, 2008, 03:12:50 pm
I'm wondering if poor monitor contrast might be to blame.  I have a crystal clear 19" LCD and have no trouble usual visual targeting.  Is it really that difficult to actually see the ships, once you're aiming in the right direction via radar?  Or is it something else about the lack of targeting that you have difficulty with?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Woolie Wool on February 01, 2008, 04:03:00 pm
I'm wondering if poor monitor contrast might be to blame.  I have a crystal clear 19" LCD and have no trouble usual visual targeting.  Is it really that difficult to actually see the ships, once you're aiming in the right direction via radar?  Or is it something else about the lack of targeting that you have difficulty with?

I have a 24" widescreen that's very bright. I'd doubt it is the widescreen modes, as my accuracy is fine with targeting, and only the 2D HUD elements get misaligned, and only at the edges. My accuracy goes from around 2% with primitive sensors to 20% with full sensors.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Titan on February 01, 2008, 05:37:05 pm
i have an old flatscreen thats 1024 x 768, and about 16' wide by 12' tall. and im saying the bullets are these little particles that're hard to see once they're a lil distance from your ship. and i did fine with the primitive sensors. the targetting just helps me assess what ships are there.

EDIT: dang, those mustang betas are the sexiest bombers i've ever seen.  :pimp:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on February 17, 2008, 01:40:27 am
   Holy **** a demo? Man, I need to get a job and get a real graphics card . . .not for new games but to play all these FSOpen campaigns I' missing out on.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on February 17, 2008, 06:39:05 am
     Well, I'll play it as long as there aren't any exploding ships and bombs . .. haha, how the hell do you do this glide thing? I know that the ship kinda, keeps moving after you centre the stick, but the damn enemy pilots are like flipping tail over the end so when I try to catch them they're coming at me guns a blazing. I'm getting shot out of the air, the freighters and my wingman are killing more of them than I am. What the hell's up with that? haha.


EDIT:
     Here's an error of sorts, on the mission where you have to guard the depot, then the moskalenko draws you and A1 off, the message from the schirra has the word "PIRMARY" instead of Primary. Not sure the exact context, it's when A1 first breaks formation to head off. ("primary objectives changed or something like that").
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on February 17, 2008, 07:30:10 am
Whoah I just noticed why I'm not getting the same "ship shooting itself" problem as everyone else! I had a rogue -wep.tbm somewhere in my FS2 folder that had a weapon with the same name as the Firestorm missile but with different stats... Wow... :wtf:
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 17, 2008, 07:39:39 am
Here's an error of sorts, on the mission where you have to guard the depot, then the moskalenko draws you and A1 off, the message from the schirra has the word "PIRMARY" instead of Primary. Not sure the exact context, it's when A1 first breaks formation to head off. ("primary objectives changed or something like that").
'Error' is a rather harsh word for an issue like this. Try 'typo' instead.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on February 17, 2008, 06:40:12 pm
Here's an error of sorts, on the mission where you have to guard the depot, then the moskalenko draws you and A1 off, the message from the schirra has the word "PIRMARY" instead of Primary. Not sure the exact context, it's when A1 first breaks formation to head off. ("primary objectives changed or something like that").
'Error' is a rather harsh word for an issue like this. Try 'typo' instead.

    Nah, spelling error. When someone's brain told his fingers to type the word they hit the keys in the wrong order.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on February 17, 2008, 06:59:07 pm
When someone's brain told his fingers to type the word they hit the keys in the wrong order.

That's the very definition of a typo, not a spelling error.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on February 17, 2008, 11:30:19 pm
When someone's brain told his fingers to type the word they hit the keys in the wrong order.

That's the very definition of a typo, not a spelling error.

   typo(definition): typographical ERROR

   It's an error, it's misspelled, whether it's wrong because his fingers didn't do their job or because he's an idiot I don't care. Either way, it's an ERROR. What's wrong with you people? Last bug/error report I make. Offer some help and people got nothing better to do than to argue semantics.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on February 17, 2008, 11:37:41 pm
He just thought it sounded a bit harsh, and there wasn't a need to go past what he said with it in the first place, he obviously didn't want to think of it that way.  They're more used to thinking of errors as things that affect gameplay.  I'm sorry for offending you.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on February 19, 2008, 05:29:17 am
He just thought it sounded a bit harsh, and there wasn't a need to go past what he said with it in the first place, he obviously didn't want to think of it that way.  They're more used to thinking of errors as things that affect gameplay.  I'm sorry for offending you.

   Nah I'm sorry dude, bit of an overaction on my part.
   Though I think people react a little too much to criticism in general. Though I work in a semi-artistic field (animation) so I'm used to people being harsh with me ("Your animation's garbage, what's he doing, that's crazy!"). But online,  people on a place like devArt give criticism and everyone jumps on them "what, it's great! You suck" sorta thing. A little offtopic but, applies to modding as well since people here can give criticism about models or in this thread about a campaign in general. Actually I just threw up a campaign dump of sorts in the Mission/Campaign forum (plug plug) and if people are harsh with me that's cool, at least someone aside from myself will have played the damn thing.

   Now back to the demo . . . I'll go and get ripped apart in a Falcon defending some crates full of toiletpaper.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on February 21, 2008, 11:49:45 am
   Now back to the demo . . . I'll go and get ripped apart in a Falcon defending some crates full of toiletpaper.

Hey, toilet paper is a luxury commodity in space! :D
Yeah. Unless, of course, you want to wipe with missiles or something.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on March 23, 2008, 05:46:12 am
    Hey I finished the campaign/demo. Good stuff. A little on the tough side, though the fact I played on hard might've had something to do with. Though the missions got a lot easier once the Mustangs came online.

Spoiler:
Though for a while there I was stuck on that VIP escort mission. Kept getting ripped apart in my Shriek before the Carrier even arrived. . . then finally, I escorted the transport out and I thought "Yes, finished this bad boy" but then I hadn't read the briefing in a while so soon realised I had to wait for the other one to come back. Then the damn carrier comes back, and more fighters, etcetera. . . thought I was mincemeat for sure but managed to make it through. Helps to have invulnerable wingmen sometimes. In a one-on-one fight most fighters seem to pown me because of their sideslip ability. I can never get on their tail, and they always get a few free shots. Though in a later mission, someone I thought was sure to take me out broke off so I could get on his tail. Dunno why he did that but anyway.

I didn't mind the Falcon either, sometimes when I used afterburner it didnt help worth a damn anyway. The Falcon at least has some meat on it and can take a few licks before it's blown apart.

Think it was the fourth or fifth mission though before I even got a kill (the VIP escort). Sad  :(
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on March 23, 2008, 05:49:41 am
Code: [Select]
[spoiler]You seem to have an extra s in your spoiler tags.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on March 23, 2008, 06:15:22 am
Code: [Select]
[spoiler]You seem to have an extra s in your spoiler tags.[/spoiler]

  Bugger, that's what I get for typing them.
  Thanks, though most people've probably played the demo long before I did anyway :).
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Fergus on March 31, 2008, 05:42:40 pm
Hey, for some reason the Falcon isn't visible ingame.  Now I can see the blue engines, and I can fly it, but there's no visible body (which makes shooting it or looking at it in the techroom very difficult).  Now I've redownloaded the main and model vp's, but this hasn't had the desired affect.  I'm using the normal 3.6.9 build on a clean install so it should be working and I've tried it with only the -mod command line and none of the other options but to no avail.  Any advice?
Spoiler:
The no targeting and the afterburners are a fantastic way of doing the ye olde look, really enjoying it so far
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on March 31, 2008, 05:48:11 pm
      I think you need to enable jpeg textures on the launcher.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Fergus on April 01, 2008, 12:01:02 pm
Cheers, it worked a treat.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 01, 2008, 12:02:39 pm
WTF have you been doing the whole time? You should have jpg/tga textures enabled always. You can't even see asteroids without 'em.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 01, 2008, 12:10:18 pm
Considering how unplayable those asteroids make any mission they appear in, that isn't necessarily a bad thing. At least on my system.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 01, 2008, 12:12:39 pm
Umm... no? If asteroids kill your rig, switch to 3.6.8Zetas. And what about "Rebels & Renegades"? "Paving the Way"? Those can be rather challenging if you have invisible asteroids that don't react to weapons fire but can still impact the hull of the capital ship you're supposed to escort.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 01, 2008, 12:54:12 pm
Umm... no? If asteroids kill your rig, switch to 3.6.8Zetas. And what about "Rebels & Renegades"? "Paving the Way"? Those can be rather challenging if you have invisible asteroids that don't react to weapons fire but can still impact the hull of the capital ship you're supposed to escort.
'

     If I run into a mission with asteroids I exit FS2, turn off the mediaVPs, finish the mission, exit again, and turn them back on. Typically.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 01, 2008, 01:00:46 pm
 :wtf: Suit yourself. I'm circumventing the issue by using the 3.6.8's. It's no biggie. And I'll patiently wait until the final 3.6.10's are released, since rumours have stated that the final versions shall once again have asteroids that don't clog everything below Hactar.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Woolie Wool on April 01, 2008, 04:58:19 pm
Or you could download 3.6.8 and unzip the asteroids into 3.6.10.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 01, 2008, 05:22:17 pm
Or you could download 3.6.8 and unzip the asteroids into 3.6.10.

   Yeah, that's a possibility. I was thinking of trying to delete the asteroids from the VP or something but never bothered to go that far. Too much work. :) I'll maybe check out 3.6.8 though . . . . not that I have much time to play Freespace right now anyway.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: BS403 on April 18, 2008, 12:15:14 pm
Umm... no? If asteroids kill your rig, switch to 3.6.8Zetas. And what about "Rebels & Renegades"? "Paving the Way"? Those can be rather challenging if you have invisible asteroids that don't react to weapons fire but can still impact the hull of the capital ship you're supposed to escort.
'

     If I run into a mission with asteroids I exit FS2, turn off the mediaVPs, finish the mission, exit again, and turn them back on. Typically.
typically I don't even bother with the media vps when i'm playing FS2.  Often times I play FS1 more then I play FS2.

"If its not broken, Don't Fix it."
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: SF-Junky on April 24, 2008, 10:55:42 am
Sorry, but I absolutely cannot tolerate the primitive sensors. I extracted all the missions and disabled primitive sensors in FRED after playing four times and being completely frustrated.
So did I. I completely agree with you in this one. Even today's aircraft have targeting systems and afterburners. I would have added fuel based ABs to any fighter and bomber craft in this mod.

What I have problems with, is the point in time al this happens. It's 2313 - only 22 years prior to FS1. They just discover the Delta Serpentis Jump Node. During only two decades they travel to about 25-30 star systems and built colonies in - what? - half of them? And besides, of course, they unite five or so fractions to the GTA and fight a 14-year-war against the Vasudans? Not to forget that they colonized the whole Sol system in the same small period of time. Sounds bit implausible to me, to be honest.

Oh, and btw., what exactly did you do to make the engine wash that... strange? It's because I'd like to use the ship model in my upcoming campaign if I am allowed to do so. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on April 24, 2008, 01:29:12 pm
Engine wash: Go into Ships.tbl, where the engine washes are defined. The engine wash in TVWP has nothing to do with the actual model or individual table entry, so as long as you copy-and-paste only the individual table entry into your mod the engine wash will be "back to normal".

Quote
What I have problems with, is the point in time al this happens. It's 2313 - only 22 years prior to FS1. They just discover the Delta Serpentis Jump Node. During only two decades they travel to about 25-30 star systems and built colonies in - what? - half of them? And besides, of course, they unite five or so fractions to the GTA and fight a 14-year-war against the Vasudans? Not to forget that they colonized the whole Sol system in the same small period of time. Sounds bit implausible to me, to be honest.

Almost every campaign I've seen is built on faulty reasoning and plot holes, why not this one too? Personally I hate the idea of a unification war. The FS1 techroom says that the Terrans evolved from nation-states to a global-state to a galactic-state, which implies a more slower and subtle process of political evolution than a quick "unification war" to wrap things up quickly. But I'm just a mission designer.

Quote
So did I. I completely agree with you in this one. Even today's aircraft have targeting systems and afterburners. I would have added fuel based ABs to any fighter and bomber craft in this mod.

FreeSpace != reality. In the Plato escort missions you can't target the Shivans even though you can see them with your unaided eye. I can list a thousand reasons why FS makes no sense, and having primitive sensors isn't a big deal in comparison. We knew many people weren't going to like it. We just thought that most people would be willing to adapt.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: GTSVA on April 24, 2008, 02:10:05 pm
Is this worth d-loading?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: SF-Junky on April 24, 2008, 02:10:43 pm
Engine wash: Go into Ships.tbl, where the engine washes are defined. The engine wash in TVWP has nothing to do with the actual model or individual table entry, so as long as you copy-and-paste only the individual table entry into your mod the engine wash will be "back to normal".
You're right, although there isn't any wash at all now. Yesterday there was still the strong wash from TVWP. Forget about it...

Quote
Almost every campaign I've seen is built on faulty reasoning and plot holes, why not this one too?
Because other's mistakes are no escuse for own ones. ;-)

Quote
The FS1 techroom says that the Terrans evolved from nation-states to a global-state to a galactic-state, which implies a more slower and subtle process of political evolution than a quick "unification war" to wrap things up quickly. But I'm just a mission designer.
There is a global-state in TVWP as far as I can see: UNE. I personally do not think that this is a disaccord. The tech entry doesn't specifically say that this unification process was a peaceful one.

Quote
In the Plato escort missions you can't target the Shivans even though you can see them with your unaided eye.
Yes, and there is a (plausible) explanation given by the mission designers. GTA lacks of data on the Shivan's electronics systems. That's not the case here.

Quote
We knew many people weren't going to like it. We just thought that most people would be willing to adapt.
Sounds a bit like a case of sink or swim to me...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 24, 2008, 02:17:15 pm
Quote
In the Plato escort missions you can't target the Shivans even though you can see them with your unaided eye.
Yes, and there is a (plausible) explanation given by the mission designers. GTA lacks of data on the Shivan's electronics systems. That's not the case here.

       Actually the idea of "stealth" of any variety is the MOST implausible thing in all of popular science fiction.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 24, 2008, 02:17:54 pm
Is this worth d-loading?

     It's like 10 missions with all new ships, what's not worth downloading? I recommend it though people have their differences.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 24, 2008, 02:21:42 pm
Is this worth d-loading?
That's like... you know. A weird question. We can't possibly know whether you like TVWP Demo or not. You have to decide yourself whether to download or not. Of course, if you download and play, you'll definitely know if it was worth it.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: GTSVA on April 24, 2008, 02:24:26 pm
OK! I'll see it now!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: SF-Junky on April 25, 2008, 07:03:09 am
Actually the idea of "stealth" of any variety is the MOST implausible thing in all of popular science fiction.
Why?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mustang19 on April 25, 2008, 08:07:43 am
Not really. If you're able to mask your own EM emissions and project fake emissions to mimic your surroundings (as space does have some weak background radiation), then it's pretty easy given the technology we'll have in 2335. Much more plausible, in fact, than

- Warp drives
- Slower-than-light lasers
- Humanoid aliens
- Spaceships that travel at bottle rocket speeds

Stealth is not "the most implausible thing in SciFi" by far...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on April 25, 2008, 08:13:55 am
- Slower-than-light lasers
IMO they're not lasers, just focused gas plasma balls that are colloquially called lasers.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 25, 2008, 08:45:39 am
- Slower-than-light lasers
IMO they're not lasers, just focused gas plasma balls that are colloquially called lasers.
Aye, but that's the point. It is stupid to call them lasers, if they are something else. And the speeds are ridiculous sometimes. I remember from Colony Wars - Vengeance that you could often outrun laser "bolts" with your ship.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on April 25, 2008, 09:24:36 am
Aye, but that's the point. It is stupid to call them lasers, if they are something else. And the speeds are ridiculous sometimes. I remember from Colony Wars - Vengeance that you could often outrun laser "bolts" with your ship.
Maybe they were a nickname that stuck. "Hey, Bob, it's a laser lol"
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 25, 2008, 09:48:33 am
Not really. If you're able to mask your own EM emissions and project fake emissions to mimic your surroundings (as space does have some weak background radiation), then it's pretty easy given the technology we'll have in 2335. Much more plausible, in fact, than

- Warp drives
- Slower-than-light lasers
- Humanoid aliens
- Spaceships that travel at bottle rocket speeds

Stealth is not "the most implausible thing in SciFi" by far...

       Uh, yes it is. Space is cold, your spaceship is not. Whether its because of the engines or the temperature required inside the cockpit or the reactor required to heat that cockpit, it'll be warmer than space. Much warmer. Read this if you need a more thorough explanation and a bunch of scientific equation stuff: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth (http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: colecampbell666 on April 25, 2008, 08:22:14 pm
Spectacular game, guys. Very good. I was gripped in from the beginning.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: HelDM on April 26, 2008, 03:15:11 am
This mod is absolutely brilliant! I can't wait for the full release.

I especially like the old school feeling. The HUD is beautiful and really gives it an "old fighter" feeling  :cool:

Keep it up!  :D

(omg.. first post ever here.... been following all the action on HLP for quite some time though)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on April 26, 2008, 09:15:06 am
:welcomesilver:

Welcome to the HLPBB!!! :D

I've got a problem...In the first mission about the ML my wingmen and me have 0 ammo. Clicking on "reset" didn't help.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: colecampbell666 on April 26, 2008, 09:35:00 am
Corrupt pilot?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on April 26, 2008, 09:37:15 am
That could be possible...I have installed a new INFASA modpack in a very bad way, changing something in my root FS2 folder.

I should simply delete the pilot and restart the campaign?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on April 26, 2008, 10:36:02 am
I should simply delete the pilot and restart the campaign?
Smacking up the Campaign file to where you were would save you from boredom, or you could just cheat your way to the end.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: GTSVA on April 26, 2008, 10:39:28 am
I'm not so sure about the HUD... but the ships and other ship models are awesome. The HUD just freaks me out... and some other things...

3.5/5!!!
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 26, 2008, 11:30:13 am
I've got a problem...In the first mission about the ML my wingmen and me have 0 ammo. Clicking on "reset" didn't help.[/i][/color]
Hey, I had that too. It might have been because I was using the Xt_0314 build, though I'm not sure since I wasn't motivated enough to start really testing to see if that really was the issue. But switching back to 20071028T and creating a new pilot fixed it.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 26, 2008, 10:18:09 pm
FreeSpace != reality. In the Plato escort missions you can't target the Shivans even though you can see them with your unaided eye.

This actually made a great deal of sense to me.

The Shivans are really, really different. Their ships don't even seem to obey the same rules of movement yours do. They evidence weapons and technologies nothing like the stuff you have at that moment. You've never even seen a bomb at that point in the game; those the Shaitans launch ought to be the first.  Your fighter's sensor system software is designed to track the emissions and sensor returns of Vasudan and perhaps Terran craft. The Shivans are nothing like either of them. They could have an emissions profile so radically different from Terran or Vasudan ships that your sensor software just doesn't know what they are and writes them off as spurious signals. (This is offered as one of the reasons in a Command Briefing.)

They may not even scan to active sensors at all. Their shields, after all, are quite capable of absorbing EM energy, as witnessed by the total ineffectiveness of your ML-16 chemical lasers, which means you might not even be able to get a radar/ladar return off them due to the signal being absorbed by the shield. This may also work both ways and tamp down a Shivan ship's own emissions, frustrating the task of passive sensor software that's not designed to track those emissions already.

Or the Shivans, not being human after all, could have some exotic form of ECM that your ship's software and sensor gear just isn't equipped to handle because nobody human ever thought of it. You don't have the tools to beat their ECM gear, not the correct programming or the correct sensors, or both. (This is also mentioned as one of the reasons in a Command Briefing.)

They could fix this, easily apparently, but we aren't really sure how. It might be that they simply configured the sensor and target gear to look for areas where background radiation did not exist to locate Shivan ships; points of black against the light, betrayed by the shield systems that at first protected them detection. It might be that Shivan ships have totally different emissions profiles from Terran and Vasudan craft, and they simply needed to upload the proper data so your software recognizes Shivan ships. It might be that new programming defeated Shivan ECM.

So all in all, yes, the primative sensors thing was rather dumb this time around.

But if it at first contact with the Vasudans you can't lock them up either, that would be totally justified. And I won't bat an eye.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: HelDM on April 27, 2008, 03:03:28 am
FreeSpace != reality. In the Plato escort missions you can't target the Shivans even though you can see them with your unaided eye.

This actually made a great deal of sense to me.

The Shivans are really, really different. Their ships don't even seem to obey the same rules of movement yours do. They evidence weapons and technologies nothing like the stuff you have at that moment. You've never even seen a bomb at that point in the game; those the Shaitans launch ought to be the first.  Your fighter's sensor system software is designed to track the emissions and sensor returns of Vasudan and perhaps Terran craft. The Shivans are nothing like either of them. They could have an emissions profile so radically different from Terran or Vasudan ships that your sensor software just doesn't know what they are and writes them off as spurious signals. (This is offered as one of the reasons in a Command Briefing.)

They may not even scan to active sensors at all. Their shields, after all, are quite capable of absorbing EM energy, as witnessed by the total ineffectiveness of your ML-16 chemical lasers, which means you might not even be able to get a radar/ladar return off them due to the signal being absorbed by the shield. This may also work both ways and tamp down a Shivan ship's own emissions, frustrating the task of passive sensor software that's not designed to track those emissions already.

Or the Shivans, not being human after all, could have some exotic form of ECM that your ship's software and sensor gear just isn't equipped to handle because nobody human ever thought of it. You don't have the tools to beat their ECM gear, not the correct programming or the correct sensors, or both. (This is also mentioned as one of the reasons in a Command Briefing.)

They could fix this, easily apparently, but we aren't really sure how. It might be that they simply configured the sensor and target gear to look for areas where background radiation did not exist to locate Shivan ships; points of black against the light, betrayed by the shield systems that at first protected them detection. It might be that Shivan ships have totally different emissions profiles from Terran and Vasudan craft, and they simply needed to upload the proper data so your software recognizes Shivan ships. It might be that new programming defeated Shivan ECM.

So all in all, yes, the primative sensors thing was rather dumb this time around.

But if it at first contact with the Vasudans you can't lock them up either, that would be totally justified. And I won't bat an eye.

I completely agree. Targeting someone means that your on-board computer has enough data about that ship/station/whatever to give you feedback on it's HP, it's systems etc. At least, this is the logical explanation. This is even more true in the case of not being able to target something at all (say a lot of missions in TVW). You computer simply isn't equipped to "see" ships while your eyes certainly can. (hence the phrase "there is no better computer then the human mind" hehe)

Consider it being a modern navigation system in your car with no satelite connection. You have to do with the maps that are provided by the software of the little computer. if you go to a place that the nav system doesn't support, you drive blind. You can upload new maps to make it better.

Same goes for Terran fighter computers. They can't target if the profile of the unit that's gonna be targeted is not uploaded on your comp. (obviously targets who have practically the same configuration show up to, but that targeting data can be incorrect at some points, because subsystems could be wildly different)
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on April 27, 2008, 03:12:17 am
I really have to agree with ngtmr1 here.

Now pilots have full computer support, I hard believe things will become WWI-like in a few hundred years.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 27, 2008, 04:49:07 am
Same goes for Terran fighter computers. They can't target if the profile of the unit that's gonna be targeted is not uploaded on your comp. (obviously targets who have practically the same configuration show up to, but that targeting data can be incorrect at some points, because subsystems could be wildly different)

    Eh, if you guys want to rationalize it away for the sake of the game that's cool . . . but in the real world there would be no stealth.

 
   I don't think the lack of targeting is that big a deal.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: HelDM on April 27, 2008, 09:28:22 am
it's not a big deal. I actually think it has a great flavor and really shows how far terran tech has come in FS. I'm only trying to rationalise it for story's sake ;)

Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on April 27, 2008, 02:52:45 pm
Eh, if you guys want to rationalize it away for the sake of the game that's cool . . . but in the real world there would be no stealth.

But that's just it, I'm not claim they were stealth, I'm claiming that your ship's sensors and softwear simply couldn't recognize them by hook or by crook.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 27, 2008, 03:00:38 pm
Eh, if you guys want to rationalize it away for the sake of the game that's cool . . . but in the real world there would be no stealth.

But that's just it, I'm not claim they were stealth, I'm claiming that your ship's sensors and softwear simply couldn't recognize them by hook or by crook.


           Well if your ships sensors can't lock onto something they can't recognize they're quite honestly pretty stupid.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 27, 2008, 03:16:04 pm
Eh, if you guys want to rationalize it away for the sake of the game that's cool . . . but in the real world there would be no stealth.

But that's just it, I'm not claim they were stealth, I'm claiming that your ship's sensors and softwear simply couldn't recognize them by hook or by crook.


           Well if your ships sensors can't lock onto something they can't recognize they're quite honestly pretty stupid.
Are you also stating that a virus scanner is stupid if it can't identify a virus if it doesn't have an entry on it in the virus database? Surely some heuristics can be applied to ships' sensors, but they only work so far. We don't even actually know just how different the Shivan engines are from their Terran and Vasudan counterparts.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 27, 2008, 03:38:50 pm
Are you also stating that a virus scanner is stupid if it can't identify a virus if it doesn't have an entry on it in the virus database? Surely some heuristics can be applied to ships' sensors, but they only work so far. We don't even actually know just how different the Shivan engines are from their Terran and Vasudan counterparts.

      Virus Scanner?
      Radar in the 1940s detected a plane whether it was a German Fighter, or Bomber, or British plane , or American or Italian or Russia or who cares what else. Whether their primary means of detection or not, Terran fightercraft must have some sort of heat sensing device (if they put a heat seeking in a rockeye (or FS1 equivelant), they can put something similar on a fighter), and if they do, then the Shivan ship would be a burning torch in a pitch black night. Even if they use some fancy grav engines, the ship itself is still going to be considerable warmer than space. (ie, space 3 degrees kelvin . . . compared to room temperature being about 200+ degrees kelvin for the ship).
      It's not about tracking a particular silhouette or configuration, it's about tracking an obviously artificial object.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 27, 2008, 04:22:53 pm
But can we be sure that the sensors on ships have been designed so that they track heat sources? It is still possible that those sensors were "stupid" and only functioned by tracking engine emissions, which caused the Shivan ships with their weird designs to be somewhat untrackable. The radar obviously did something else, because you could still see those blinking blips on it.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: ShadowGorrath on April 27, 2008, 05:19:54 pm
FreeSpace sensors are very different from what you think. They can detect subsystems and aproximate health of them and the ship. Plus it can calculate where to shoot ( lead indicator ) and can show distance with speed at the same time. That's because it's based on ship electronics data ( like in FS1, if I remember right, they said they can't lock onto Shivan ships because of the unknown electronic devices used on them ).
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on April 27, 2008, 07:08:41 pm
FreeSpace sensors are very different from what you think. They can detect subsystems and aproximate health of them and the ship. Plus it can calculate where to shoot ( lead indicator ) and can show distance with speed at the same time. That's because it's based on ship electronics data ( like in FS1, if I remember right, they said they can't lock onto Shivan ships because of the unknown electronic devices used on them ).

     Eh, don't modern aircraft give lead indicators on the HUD as well? What's so different about that? The fact that it knows more about the individual subsystems means it should be more powerful than your basic sensors, further negating the whole "we can't track teh shivans bit". I mean, if at first the computer cant distinguish the subsystems that's fine. But if it can't distinguish the ship from the background of space there's something wrong.

But can we be sure that the sensors on ships have been designed so that they track heat sources? It is still possible that those sensors were "stupid" and only functioned by tracking engine emissions, which caused the Shivan ships with their weird designs to be somewhat untrackable. The radar obviously did something else, because you could still see those blinking blips on it.

       Eh, you can't be sure of anything. The fact is that under modern technology an observer on Pluto could detect the main drives of the Space Shuttle in orbit around Earth. So I think a heat-related sensor system could likewise pick up a Shivan ship at a mere 150meters. Sensors don't track engine emissions, they track heat from the engine.

       
       The fact is, from my viewpoint, is that the Shivan ships weren't detectable because Volition wanted them to be even more mysterious and more powerful than they are just as the opening cinematic portrays. Likewise, TVWP in my interpretation wants to emphasize how low tech their era is by having the player fly in ships with very crappy sensor systems. Aside from of course, wanting to distinguish their MOD in some way from other mods.

       My one complaint with the sensor system in the TVWP Demo was that, I don't mind having crappy sensors. What I don't like is having to look down at my radar to know if the ship I'm shooting at is friendly or hostile. Basically I would've liked some nation distinguishing markings on the planes, like red stripe for Mars for example, Yellow for Jupiter. As it is, I think there'd be a hell of a lot of friendly fire incidents.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Solatar on April 28, 2008, 10:30:22 pm
I think the earlier weapons were purposefully weak (somewhere in the tech descriptions) for that reason. Pilots weren't issued more powerful weapons until they gained the situational awareness to not shoot their friendlies.

As far as the markings...I think they just wanted to get the project out the door. Feature creep almost killed it, so it had to stop somewhere (even though the markings would have been great).
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Admiral Nelson on April 29, 2008, 12:44:00 am
I tried putting markings on the craft.  The UV mapping wouldn't allow for it, and so one would have had to add a separate texture a la Ezechiel.  This would have required a modeler and was therefore not going to happen.  As Solatar says, it was time to get something out the door.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Antares on May 11, 2008, 01:51:33 am
If it'll make you feel better, you can cheat and lock onto 'cloaked' Shivan craft by targeting a friendly unit and then pressing "J" to target the unit that friendly is targeting.

They still show up as "Unknown".  :p
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: hip63 on May 21, 2008, 08:20:27 pm
So now that TBP is done, any chance you guys need an installer guy? ;7

hip63 :p
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: haloboy100 on May 21, 2008, 09:03:13 pm
Isn't Turey the installer d00d?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: jr2 on May 22, 2008, 03:35:22 am
He's the online Installer dude.  hip63 is the offline (burn to disc) installer dude.  (Although, admittedly, you can do the same with Turey's... hip63's looks better.  ;)  Good for pimping whatever project you're giving to your friend.  here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,53840.0.html)'s a link to his work.  Bleh, I'll quote it here for ya.


With the impending certification of TBP RC2 as being FINAL, I decided it was time to start priming your guys for TBP DVD

The Babylon Project DVD is not just the 3.4b web installer thrown on a disc, oh no, it's much nicer than that.

The DVD not only have an much more advance installer, it will have the latest Campaign Pack plus a whole lot of other goodness too!

First, have a peek at the DVD Main Menu which features B5 theme music with play/pause controls and menu animations:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/hip63/The%20Babylon%20Project/TBP_DVD_Preview1.jpg)

And here's the ReadMe in a built-in html viewer included on the DVD with working hot links:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/hip63/The%20Babylon%20Project/TBP_DVD_Preview2.jpg)

On the Extras Menu (not shown) there are nice extras like DirectX, OpenAL, DVD Cover Art and Web Links to related sites.

OK now the DVD installer is much more advanced than the web installer and is all about giving you more control over your install options:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/hip63/The%20Babylon%20Project/TBP_DVD_Preview3.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v121/hip63/The%20Babylon%20Project/TBP_DVD_Preview4.jpg)

Not shown is the screen that allows you to browse for an install location but fear not, it's there ;)

Coming soon!

hip63 :p
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: CaptJosh on May 22, 2008, 05:01:56 am
Ok, taking on the gripe of stealth in space.

So you could pick up heat in earth orbit clean from Pluto. Great. You can see a blob of heat. I might add that at that range, you'll be seeing where it was HOURS ago, if not over a day. And can you determine anything from it? Not really. Now that aside, could you find out anything at engagement range? No, not really. No significant characteristics, no target data. Maybe you'd get enough for a lead indicator, IF your radar system could lock on. Remember, the lock system is basically radar based. Heat seaking missiles are fire and forget weapons, and you better make damn sure there are no friendlies around near your target, because they're just as likely to get hit by your missile as the enemy.

Thermal imaging (FLIR, etc.) might be useful for tracking a target on the ground, or maybe in a helicopter to helicopter battle, it's pretty damn useless in the middle of a dogfight in fixed or sweepwing aircraft or the space equivalent thereof. Infrared is too long a wavelength to be useful for any more than giving a general idea of the position of a possible target.

So whoever has been complaining, quit *****ing and moaning about stealth being useless in space. So you can't conceal your heat signature. That's not that crucial in making your craft stealthy, so that it can't be locked on to via radar, and so that it's hard to hit. Remember, stealth != a cloaking device. The correct terminology is "low observability." A B-1 Lancer is a low observability aircraft. The B-2 Spirit and F-117A Nighthawk are better at it. The F-22 will be better still, and the F-35 even better. But it's not that they can't be detected, it's that they're very difficult to detect. Even if you see the F-22 it's hard to hit. You have to close to within gun range, somehow avoiding being missiled to death, and then you have to do just like in TVWP here, and guess your lead. Which is exactly what you have to do in the beginning against the Shivans, save one thing. You get enough on your radar to get a vague position, so you at least know about where they are relative to you, like maybe you're getting...oh, a heat signature?

Yeah, the campaign is tough. I like a challenge. So do most the players I've seen comment, it seems. Not every government is going to have top of the line avionics. So maybe the Lunies couldn't afford nice fancy sensor suites at first. I mean, the moon is not exactly resource rich. Granted I haven't played all the way through it yet, but maybe it takes the trade agreement with the Belters to get them the resources it takes to finally get state of the art avionics.

In closing, I would just like to say, it would seem that the complainers are complaining for no other reason to complain. Any arguments I see made are to win, not to learn. This is a mistake. If you can't keep your criticism constructive, keep it to yourself.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on May 22, 2008, 05:42:35 am
Ok, taking on the gripe of stealth in space.

So you could pick up heat in earth orbit clean from Pluto. Great. You can see a blob of heat. I might add that at that range, you'll be seeing where it was HOURS ago, if not over a day. And can you determine anything from it? Not really.

        Ah, yes, yes you can. So you read it hours later . . big deal, next second you get the next reading from an hour later, next second another reading etcetera. How long for example, do you think it'll take your ship to travel from Earth to Mars? It depends on the technology, but one thing's certain is that the guys at Pluto will know you're going to Mars LONG before you ever get there.

Quote
Now that aside, could you find out anything at engagement range? No, not really. No significant characteristics, no target data. Maybe you'd get enough for a lead indicator, IF your radar system could lock on. Remember, the lock system is basically radar based. Heat seaking missiles are fire and forget weapons, and you better make damn sure there are no friendlies around near your target, because they're just as likely to get hit by your missile as the enemy.

      So you're saying that a person couldn't create a system to track heat signatures?
      Radar is just sending out stuff and getting it back and reading what comes back. Why couldn't a person just set up something that reads it coming back in the first place?
      And if not heat tracking, what about visual tracking. What a person can't create a computer to track an object in motion?? That's already being done by some computer nerds with too much time on their hands. So you're saying your ship, can't track another ship 200 metres away? Considering that there'd be no need to wait for the radar to bounce back, it would be twice as fast as conventional systems.

Quote
Thermal imaging (FLIR, etc.) might be useful for tracking a target on the ground, or maybe in a helicopter to helicopter battle, it's pretty damn useless in the middle of a dogfight in fixed or sweepwing aircraft or the space equivalent thereof. Infrared is too long a wavelength to be useful for any more than giving a general idea of the position of a possible target. . . . A B-1 Lancer is a low observability aircraft. The B-2 Spirit and F-117A Nighthawk are better at it. The F-22 will be better still, and the F-35 even better. But it's not that they can't be detected, it's that they're very difficult to detect. Even if you see the F-22 it's hard to hit.

           Space has no horizon.
           No ambient heat.
           Anything artificial producing heat will be easily trackable.
           You talk about very difficult to detect? Well space has an ambient heat of like, what 3 degrees kelvin or somesuch. Whereas room temperature for a human is like . . . 200+ degrees kelvin. Bit of a difference is it not? That's not even talking about engines, etcetera. There's nothing difficult about it. You're talking about craft that are designed to reduce radar emissions, who needs radar in space?
       
Quote
So whoever has been complaining, quit *****ing and moaning about stealth being useless in space. So you can't conceal your heat signature. That's not that crucial in making your craft stealthy, so that it can't be locked on to via radar, and so that it's hard to hit. Remember, stealth != a cloaking device.

In closing, I would just like to say, it would seem that the complainers are complaining for no other reason to complain. Any arguments I see made are to win, not to learn. This is a mistake. If you can't keep your criticism constructive, keep it to yourself.


         Eh, you need to read the posts a little more carefully. My argument isn't a criticism of the TVWP at all. I enjoyed it and had no problem with the lack of targetting. Rather:
         People are saying, "oh, waaah, my ship can't lock onto the enemy targets. That's dumb. Even modern day fighters can do that!"
         To which I replied "well Freespace isn't very realistic to begin with, so who cares. If it were realistic there would be no stealth at all, yet the Shivans have stealth and so do FS2 fighters so obviously it's not realistic. Just play the demo and enjoy".
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: CaptJosh on May 22, 2008, 02:17:04 pm
Look, yet again, heat signatures wouldn't really give you enough information. You'd know something was there, but you wouldn't know what until you were within visual range. And you wouldn't know if it was an enemy until it started shooting at you, or it failed to answer some sort of challenge. So you could track a ship going to mars clean from Pluto. What does that have to do with being able to use a heat signature in the middle of a dogfight? At high relative speeds with shooting going on, you need something with a shorter wavelength to get the data fast enough to be useful. I'm aware of the supposed ambient temperature of space. Even so, you've got a heat signature, and nothing else. It doesn't tell you anything about your target except location, and maybe velocity. Doesn't tell you who they are. "Captain, infrared scans detecting a heat signature in sector 2, on course x by y by z." That's all you've got. Are they friendly? Hostile? You don't know. Heat doesn't tell you jack.

As for visual tracking, are you telling me that on a combat spacecraft, you're going to try to put cameras all over it so that it can use image recognition to do that? I don't think so. Gun cameras are about all you're going to do, and they, generally speaking, just record things. They're not connected to the flight computer, which has much more important things to be doing than crunching numbers from images. Yes, people are making image recognition systems now, for LOW SPEED or STATIONARY objects. Processing video data is processor intensive. Even if you use thermal imaging in space to bypass the issue of visually being hard to see beyond combat range, you're still talking about something that is hard for a computer. Not only would it be tracking the enemy, but it has to factor in your changing speeds, your maneuvers, and how that changes the lead on the target, and thermal imaging, even in space, is not going to be particularly precise. Plus you still have to have a way of tagging specific craft as friendly or enemy, so you still need something besides the infrared, which really isn't going to give you a useful silhouette. Again, the wavelength is too long.

So maybe by the time of or near FreeSpace they've solved that. Maybe not. Maybe even with all their fancy tech. they can't fit enough of a computer on a small craft to handle that. Nothing is really said about it, but if these fighters have fusion power plants, they have to have a LOT of radiation shielding, plus the hull has to be fairly heavy as well, to survive stellar radiation plus radiation from heavy weapons. Doesn't leave a lot of room for the on-board computer. Plus, any combat pilot will tell you that if you make it so they have to pay attention to too many guages, dials, buttons etc., they'll die. So, given your usual military mentality, such systems are not going to be included as they are not effective, and they just create more cockpit clutter. Besides, despite the comments in game about Shivans being hard to detect, they're not. They're hard to track, yes, and at first impossible to get a lock on. Probably due to some level of EM interference from their shields. If it was active jamming we probably couldn't break it, given the tech superiority. You can fire heat seekers at them if they're in your reticle, and those will track, and even hit, but they don't deliver enough punch to deal with the shields.

BTW, Akalabeth, you need a refresher course on your physics. The data you get from tracking a thermal signature that started at earth and was heading to Mars while you're at Pluto would be hours upon hours delayed, but there's no time dilation. Each second that passed, you'd get the next second's data, at whatever delay you were at due to the range.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: chief1983 on May 22, 2008, 03:08:12 pm
Heat tells you it's either neutral or hostile if it's _not_ emitting a friendly IFF signal.  And in a heated battle, anything not emitting a detectable IFF signal is probably assumed hostile until visual ID or some other info from command determines it to be otherwise.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on May 22, 2008, 04:02:22 pm
Even so, you've got a heat signature, and nothing else. It doesn't tell you anything about your target except location, and maybe velocity. Doesn't tell you who they are. "Captain, infrared scans detecting a heat signature in sector 2, on course x by y by z." That's all you've got. Are they friendly? Hostile? You don't know. Heat doesn't tell you jack.

       Uh, to quote the rocket page:

"When the enemy spots your ship by the exhaust plume, it not only knows that a ship is there, it also knows the ship's exhaust velocity, engine mass flow, engine power, thrust, acceleration, ship's mass and ship's course. Not only can it tell a warship from a cargo freighter with all that information, but it can also tell the class of warship, and maybe make a good stab at determining which particular member of that class it is.

In more detail: as mentioned above, propulsion system's exhaust velocity is revealed by the doppler shift in the emission lines, mass flow is revealed by the plume's luminosity, the thrust is exhaust velocity times mass flow, acceleration is revealed by watching how fast the plume origin changes position, ship's mass is thrust divided by acceleration, and ship's course is revealed by plotting the vector of the plume origin."


     So actually, from an engine emission, you can tell a great deal.
     If you can track the engine emission in a dogfight you can probably essentially track the craft itself. And if you need to put a few wide angle lenses or however you'd detect that on your craft, why not? A radar is what, just a rotating lense/dish itself. It's not all that different.

Quote
So maybe by the time of or near FreeSpace they've solved that. Maybe not. Maybe even with all their fancy tech. they can't fit enough of a computer on a small craft to handle that. Nothing is really said about it, but if these fighters have fusion power plants, they have to have a LOT of radiation shielding, plus the hull has to be fairly heavy as well, to survive stellar radiation plus radiation from heavy weapons. Doesn't leave a lot of room for the on-board computer.

        Eh, Freespace sensors are accurate enough to give relative speed of the target, not to mention the orientation of the target since they can guess accurately enough about what ship is attacking what target.

Quote
Plus, any combat pilot will tell you that if you make it so they have to pay attention to too many guages, dials, buttons etc., they'll die. So, given your usual military mentality, such systems are not going to be included as they are not effective, and they just create more cockpit clutter.

        The method that a computer determines target data is irrelevant to how that data is displayed to the ship's commander. It's all going to be the same data within the limitations of the information gathering process.

Quote
BTW, Akalabeth, you need a refresher course on your physics. The data you get from tracking a thermal signature that started at earth and was heading to Mars while you're at Pluto would be hours upon hours delayed, but there's no time dilation. Each second that passed, you'd get the next second's data, at whatever delay you were at due to the range.

     Hours upon hours?
     Light takes 8 minutes to reach Earth from the Sun, or 1 AU. Pluto is at most 49 AU from the Sun. Depends upon the relationship of the planets of course, but a ship leaving Earth for Mars, the information would get to Pluto in what, under 7 hours? That's not exactly a long time. Perhaps I should've specified more than there's no Stealth due to the Craft's exhaust, at which point people would say "but maybe the Shivans don't give off exhaust" or "maybe they use Grav drives, lalalala" or somesuch, at which point the heat of the craft would make it detectable.


      Anyway, as I said I liked the TVWP. No locking was fun. But Freespace, however fun, isn't an accurate universe. There are very few, if any games, on the market that are.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: rubixcube on June 17, 2009, 05:48:07 pm
sorry are you supposed to put these in subfolders in the mod folder? The mod is working but the models aren't showing up
There all just Ullysses
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Jeff Vader on June 19, 2009, 07:39:05 am
You've failed somehow.

Click the "Troubleshooting FAQ" link in my signature.
Scroll down to the bottom of the thread.
Read the "Your fs2_open.log" part and act according to the instructions.
Post your fs2_open.log here.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: CaptJosh on June 30, 2009, 01:18:27 pm
I think I know how he failed. He's calling the files that get downloaded folders. They're not. They're zip archive files. Their contents must be extracted to the mod directory. Furthermore, The Unification War Act 1 campaign must be selected also.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Snail on July 15, 2009, 06:21:05 am
Well yeah I was trying to steal some of your ships for a few random mods I was doing, and I found that the Kestrel has some kind of radius problem or something. Instead of flying around like a normal person, it decides to fly very slowly about 5 meters from my ship and occasionally try to take a peek into my cockpit, firing the occasional shot. The table is clearly not at fault; as I tried a whole load of variations with no effect.

Is this normal?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 16, 2009, 09:11:16 pm
That sounds like the Aeshma...
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Titan on July 18, 2009, 08:43:21 am
Well, then how does the AI work? Does it look for specific parameters, then decide how it's going to play?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 18, 2009, 11:18:47 pm
I don't think so. They use their primaries at short range, and missiles at anything beyond that. If they're armed with torpedoes, they'll make a beeline for the warship they are supposed to attack and fire at as maximum a range as they can get.

When it comes to dogfights, they will always try one of two tactics:

1. Flee so that another AI can smack their predator up; or
2. Out-circle the enemy.

They tend to do 2. more often on higher difficulties.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Dey on September 10, 2009, 06:38:03 am
I ran into a problem with the demo.
Code: [Select]
Error: Could not load in main hall mask '2_MainScreen-M'!

(This error most likely means that you are missing required 1024x768 interface art.)
File: MainHallMenu.cpp
Line: 1114


Call stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't spotted this on the forums and I don't know why this problem occurred.
The mainscreens is just black and anywhere I click it will ask me if I really want to quit the game.
I'm using the 3.6.10 build of SCP if that's of interest.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: The E on September 10, 2009, 07:57:48 am
Could you run a debug build (fs2_open_3_6_10d.exe) and post the fs2_open.log from the data folder inside of your FS2 directory?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Dey on September 10, 2009, 09:05:20 am
fs2_open.log:
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.10
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 8.2
  -spec_static 3.5
  -spec_point 8.6
  -spec_tube 1.0
  -ambient_factor 70
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -nomotiondebris
  -spec
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -no_vsync
  -dualscanlines
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod TVWP
Building file index...
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-enhanced.vp' with a checksum of 0xe0853b04
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-missions.vp' with a checksum of 0x9e0d67e1
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-models.vp' with a checksum of 0x8db9f490
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-movies.vp' with a checksum of 0x1b53b12f
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-normal.vp' with a checksum of 0xbae77fb9
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x0998d700
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\FS2OGGcutscenepack.vp' with a checksum of 0x84396e99
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0x377695e0
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\multi-voice-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0xd50e7442
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x3f08ae08
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x0098ee1f
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x749032a2
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x566add58
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xf2983309
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd4e3ad49
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x799e46a1
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x825f5ee0
Found root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa7037300
Searching root 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-enhanced.vp' ... 248 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-missions.vp' ... 12 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-models.vp' ... 97 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-movies.vp' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-normal.vp' ... 101 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\TVWP\TVWP-Root.vp' ... 236 files
Searching root 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\' ... 49 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\FS2OGGcutscenepack.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' ... 110 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\multi-voice-pack.vp' ... 307 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 1777 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 20 roots and 7589 files.
Setting language to German
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Software' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1280x1024 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer   : GeForce 8800 GT/PCI/SSE2
  OpenGL Version    : 3.1.0

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_NV_vertex_program3".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Compiling shader ->  null-v.sdr / null-f.sdr ...
  Shader in_error!  Disabling GLSL!

  Max texture units: 4 (4)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 705 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 40 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
Windoze reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
WARNING: "Unable to find WEAPON_LIST_TYPE string "Training#A"  in ship: Falcon's primary banks." at PARSELO.CPP:2525
WARNING: "Unable to find WEAPON_LIST_TYPE string "Training#B"  in ship: Falcon's primary banks." at PARSELO.CPP:2525
WARNING: "Unable to find WEAPON_LIST_TYPE string "Training#C"  in ship: Falcon's primary banks." at PARSELO.CPP:2525
WARNING: "Use of 'ballistic primaries' flag for ship 'Falcon' - this flag is no longer needed." at Ship.cpp:4127
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'tvwp-turretangle-shp.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Spelling error in table file.  Please change "inital" to "initial"." at ModelAnim.cpp:69
WARNING: "Pbank capacity not specified for ballistic-primary-enabled ship Firebee. Defaulting to capacity of 1 per bank." at Ship.cpp:5377
loading animated cursor "cursor"
ANI cursor with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
Ships.tbl is : INVALID!!!!
Weapons.tbl is : INVALID!!!!
cfile_init() took 216
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
ANI cursor.ani with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
Got event GS_EVENT_MAIN_MENU (0) in state GS_STATE_INITIAL_PLAYER_SELECT (37)
Someone passed an extension to bm_load for file '103rd.pcx'
WARNING! Couldn't load main hall background bitmap 2_MainScreen
WARNING! Couldn't load main hall background mask 2_MainScreen-M
ERROR: Could not load in main hall mask '2_MainScreen-M'!

(This error most likely means that you are missing required 1024x768 interface art.)
File: MainHallMenu.cpp
Line: 1114
    game_enter_state()    gameseq_set_state()    game_process_event()    gameseq_process_events()    game_main()    WinMain()    WinMainCRTStartup()    kernel32.dll 776beccb()
    ntdll.dll 77c0d24d()
    ntdll.dll 77c0d45f()
Int3(): From e:\storage\fso\fs2_open_3_6_10\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1235
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: The E on September 10, 2009, 09:12:33 am
It seems your FS2 installation is corrupt.
Code: [Select]
Searching root pack 'E:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 1777 files
stu_fs2.vp should contain 2355 files. While the file numbers for the other retail vps seem OK, the fact that a file like 2_MainScreen-M.pcx cannot be found is slightly worrying. I would recommend reinstalling FS2, see if that fixes the problem.
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NJSP 3002 on October 16, 2009, 04:55:35 pm
i dont know why but for some odd reason it says im missing 20 ship classes which is peventing me to play the game can anyone help? i downloaded every thing that was there to download so i dont know
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on October 16, 2009, 04:56:58 pm
You've got a rogue table somewhere. Could we have a screenshot of your FS2 directory? Do you have any mods selected?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NJSP 3002 on October 16, 2009, 05:02:38 pm
see thats what i thought but all i did was select mod i click on tvwp then hit run the everything was good i just didnt have any ships
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on October 16, 2009, 05:18:06 pm
Did you choose the TVWP campaign from the campaign room?
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: NJSP 3002 on October 16, 2009, 05:27:24 pm
yes i did
Title: Re: TVWP Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on October 16, 2009, 06:14:01 pm
Post a screenshot of the "20 ship classes missing" message.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Ziame on November 06, 2009, 01:00:32 pm
Nvm, fixed. I bet the other guy doesn't have tvwp root extracted
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Snail on November 06, 2009, 02:41:45 pm
PEBKAC
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Ziame on November 07, 2009, 09:50:01 am
PEBKAC

huh?
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Mongoose on November 07, 2009, 11:24:48 am
Problem Exists Between Keyboard And Chair
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Vrets on April 15, 2010, 08:59:22 pm
I'm downloading this again.

I trust that TVWP functions with 3.6.12?

I'm so trusting.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: CaptJosh on April 23, 2010, 07:41:15 pm
Played through it with no hitches on a 3.6.12 build. Seems fine.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Necroslayer on June 16, 2010, 06:14:20 pm
Looks like the kinks are dead for me... Can anyone upload them to another mirror?
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: The E on June 16, 2010, 06:15:33 pm
Please check: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=69901.0
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on June 17, 2010, 01:52:01 am
Indeed.  The Act II demo release also includes a bugfixed and improved Act I.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on June 17, 2010, 06:33:39 am
The Act II demo release also includes a bugfixed and improved Act I.

Oh, is it coming out soon?I saw it.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on June 18, 2010, 02:37:51 am
Captain Oblivious strikes again! :p

Honestly, I just posted on Monday that your title is one of the most consistently demonstrated on HLP. :D
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 18, 2010, 06:29:57 am
I don't even know why I have a custom title myself...
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: starlord on June 18, 2010, 11:33:37 am
Very interesting...

Forgive me, but I was wondering: does the prelude of the TVWP cover also the fight between the initial conflict earth and luna (the one where the damocles was first deployed)?

this would mean that would be the first space engagement in freespace Fanon continuity, right?
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on June 18, 2010, 12:35:07 pm
TVWP fanon, anyway; there is no single fanon continuity.  And yes, that's probably the first space engagement.

You won't find that in the TVWP because it happened around a hundred years before the Unification War.  The combat probably wouldn't look anything like FreeSpace combat.  However, we do provide a partial backstory in the tech room.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: starlord on June 18, 2010, 04:26:41 pm
Oh I see! Pity!

well some atmospheric mods could perhaps at some point cover that arc of the story: I remember defcon freespace having an opening for plot ideas... this might be the conclusion of the defcon era: the war between spacers (luna) wishing for earth independence and earth barely recovering from global turmoil and the beginning of space conflicts... this actually reminds me of the ben bova books (moon war).

just my 2 cents though...
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on July 13, 2010, 12:04:31 pm
I'm playing through the upgraded version of Act 1 (maybe I should have posted this on the other thread?) with the intent of completing it. I don't remember when and how I stopped playing the previous of Act 1, and I have to admit that it was a mistake.

I like TVWP's approach on things, it's original and makes FreeSpace 1's outdated assets look like extraordinary achievements in the history of space combat. Great work!

FREDding is nice, but I would have changed something here and there. For example, in the second mission:

Spoiler:
During the second replay, I know since the beginning that one of the Elysium transports is about to board a Chronos freighter. I position myself so that I can shoot at the transport as soon as its IFF turns to hostile, and then I realize (after depleting half of my ammo) that it's either invulnerable or guardianed. With the remaining ammo, I couldn't complete the mission and had to replay it a third time.

I found other glitches, maybe I should take note of them and post a report. I'll start doing it tomorrow.

More in general, I...

Spoiler:
...think you should have added directives since the very beginning.

I know they may kill the purpose of primitive sensors ("Destroy Fighters [6]" clearly says that there are 6 enemy fighters around, even if the player and his wingmen don't have the technology to monitor their movements), but IMHO they're necessary to prevent confusion. The problem can be easily solved by linking directives to events and adding the third argument so that directives don't seem too "prophetic" until the inception of advanced sensors. In addition to that, the advantage given by sensors may be boosted even more by directives which give the impression that onboard computers analyze all sensor data and determine the exact number of friendly and enemy assets whose military importance is critical.

Just a suggestion, of course. :)


P.S.
I see you used the word Serendipity. I was so surprised when I read it. ;) (Goober probably knows what I'm refering to: a look at INFA's private board would be enough.)
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Droid803 on July 13, 2010, 12:15:04 pm
Well, I'm pretty sure people can COUNT how many fighters there are when they're approaching.
You don't need sensors to do that.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on July 13, 2010, 01:13:39 pm
Yes, but sensors are much more precise and reliable, unless there are stealth fighters around.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on July 13, 2010, 02:06:21 pm
Protip: you can get around the 'destroy fighters (6)' problem by simply using destroyed-or-departed instead of is-destroyed-delay. It prevents the numbers from showing up.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Goober5000 on July 14, 2010, 03:22:42 am
P.S.
I see you used the word Serendipity. I was so surprised when I read it. ;) (Goober probably knows what I'm refering to: a look at INFA's private board would be enough.)
Not rly.  I tend to stay away from the INFA board because I'm looking forward much more to the next release of Inferno proper.

But Serendipity is a cool word. :nod:
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on July 14, 2010, 03:01:14 pm
Protip: you can get around the 'destroy fighters (6)' problem by simply using destroyed-or-departed instead of is-destroyed-delay. It prevents the numbers from showing up.

That is not a wise choice when hostile fighters are expected to escape during the mission. Not that it's going to happen so often, though...

Not rly.  I tend to stay away from the INFA board because I'm looking forward much more to the next release of Inferno proper.

But Serendipity is a cool word. :nod:

Indeed. :)
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on July 14, 2010, 03:03:55 pm
Protip: you can get around the 'destroy fighters (6)' problem by simply using destroyed-or-departed instead of is-destroyed-delay. It prevents the numbers from showing up.

That is not a wise choice when hostile fighters are expected to escape during the mission. Not that it's going to happen so often, though...

Take a look at what forum you're posting in.

Do hostile fighters have jump drives?
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on July 15, 2010, 11:58:40 am
I get the message but if you know how to do things the good way why would you choose cheaper and unreliable solutions? It's just a matter of good FREDding here.

Please note that "escape" is a rather generic word in terms of FREDding. A spacecraft can "escape" by 1) engaging its subspace drives, 2) entering a fighterbay and 3) jumping out without the warp effect. I see 1 can't be done in TVWP, but 2 and 3 are definitely possible ergo your trick will not work on various occasions.


We know that before the very end of FS1 spacecraft couldn't jump from one system to another. Therefore, at some point in the next acts of TVWP, spacecraft will be able to execute jumps from one sector of a system to another.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on July 15, 2010, 12:01:04 pm
If the trick doesn't work, don't use it.

But in TVWP so far, those situations you're describing don't happen. If they did happen, then don't use them in those situations. It's a matter of good FREDding here: you don't have to use the same solution everywhere.

Furthermore I'm not sure I actually see the problem with using destroyed-or-departed even if some of the hostile wing does depart. Unless you specifically MUST destroy them instead of letting them escape, it's not an issue either way.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on July 15, 2010, 12:14:05 pm
Furthermore I'm not sure I actually see the problem with using destroyed-or-departed even if some of the hostile wing does depart. Unless you specifically MUST destroy them instead of letting them escape, it's not an issue either way.

It's just doesn't work properly with the "Destroy <fighters>" formula. But we're going a bit OT here, so I'd say to discuss different approaches on FRED elsewhere.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on July 15, 2010, 12:17:12 pm
It works perfectly fine with the "Destroy [wing]" (say, Aries) formula. It doesn't display the numerical count of ships remaining, but will still be satisfied when they're destroyed - which is exactly what we want here.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: Mobius on July 15, 2010, 12:25:28 pm
The problem is that it will satisfied even if part of the said wing departs. Using terms like "Stop", "Repel", "Intercept" is fine regardless of the fate of that wing, but "Destroy" implies its total destruction ergo it's not plausible.


Again, we're OT here.
Title: Re: TVWP Act I Demo Release
Post by: General Battuta on July 15, 2010, 12:44:53 pm
I know that. I already explained to you how to get around that.

Don't use it when there's a chance some of the hostile wing will depart (and it actually matters.) But see that TVWP badge next to my name (not that I FREDded any of this Act I or II cluster****, mind)? In general TVWP ships do not depart. They just don't; the wings don't have departure cues, so they fight to the death. So when there's no departure cue set for the wing, it's fine to use destroyed-or-departed.

You are not a moderator. If we're off topic a moderator will handle it.