For the most part, I expect it is just going to give people upset bowels until their immune systems fight it off.
It's not really much worse than the flu. It's just that the world already has the flu. We don't need another one.
That said it's really weird cause I'm on holiday in Lijiang (China's number one tourist destination this time of year) and they've shut down the entire old town because of two cases.
I'm on the Wirral where the British evacuees from China are being quarantined here in the UK. :nervous:
Why the Wirral? It happens to be a peninsular so easier to quarantine the whole area, and is close to the Royal Liverpool Hospital where the have wards to quarantine infected patients.
It's quite a bit more serious than that though. This particular bug has an incubation period of 11 days or so and is infectious during it, meaning that people carrying it will infect others during that time. That makes it extraordinarily difficult to control the spread of the infection; if the chinese quarantine measures seem harsh, it's because anything less than that can't work.
It's quite a bit more serious than that though. This particular bug has an incubation period of 11 days or so and is infectious during it, meaning that people carrying it will infect others during that time. That makes it extraordinarily difficult to control the spread of the infection; if the chinese quarantine measures seem harsh, it's because anything less than that can't work.
I'd say it's not the transmission or fatality that makes it scary, it's this long incubation period that makes it so easy to possibly escape containment which makes it worrying...
In other news, is anybody else playing Plague, Inc.?
https://nextshark.com/plague-inc-increase-sales-amid-coronavirus/
All of China apparently.
document the progress of the war through memes.
But 99.9 percent of it is incredibly graphic and by societal standards in very poor taste.
Add to this that generally Italian bosses tend to think that smart working is for slackersOh, yes it's a thing I have always found annoying about Italian work mentality.
Has anyone read World War Z? The zombie outbreak starts in China. Coincidence? I think not.
I guess that the age of manufactured nihilism and the coronavirus outbreak are something that campaign creators should take note of as inspirations.
Anyway, in my area the situation is pretty bad. Hospitals ran out of ICUs, so it was ordered to "prioritize patients with higher survival chances": let the elderly die, and try to save younger patients.
We live in the ****ing worst timeline.
We live in the ****ing worst timeline.
That legit made me laugh out loud.
Lots of toilet paper being hoarded in the UK for some unknown sheeple reason.My guess is that someone made a comment about "**** hitting the fan" and people interpreted that a bit too literally. :P
Mother ****er.
POLITICO: Trump’s travel ban sidesteps his own European resorts.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/trump-coronavirus-travel-europe-resorts-126808
Here in Italy people hoarded pasta.
Mother ****er.
POLITICO: Trump’s travel ban sidesteps his own European resorts.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/12/trump-coronavirus-travel-europe-resorts-126808
What a ****ing idiot.
It's not really much worse than the flu. It's just that the world already has the flu.
Influenza has a faster spread and higher mortality rate. In short, don't panic about coronavirus but DO go get your damn flu shot (it's free in many countries).
Spanish flu has about the same mortality rate as Covid-19.
It infected 500 million people around the world,[2] or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands and in the Arctic. The death toll is estimated to have been anywhere from 17 million[3] to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics in human history.
The world isn't ending.
But it IS going to get a lot ****tier for a while.
Well...
It's not really much worse than the flu. It's just that the world already has the flu.Influenza has a faster spread and higher mortality rate. In short, don't panic about coronavirus but DO go get your damn flu shot (it's free in many countries).
sigh...
What timeline is this where we are looking to China as an example of how to treat people? Lol.
And you just know that a story will quietly appear and be forgotten about / ignored by Trump's entire base that it was because someone in the administration made money off the decision to use a US kit instead.
Biden falsely says Trump administration rejected WHO coronavirus test kits (that were never offered)
by Jon Greenberg (https://www.politifact.com/staff/jon-greenberg/)
March 16, 2020
by Victoria Knight (https://www.politifact.com/staff/victoria-knight/)
March 16, 2020
tl;dr:
- The WHO never offered to sell test kits to the United States.
- The CDC opted to develop its own coronavirus test and did not use the WHO’s protocol for the test.
- Other developed countries with advanced research capabilities developed their own tests. (emphasis mine)
See sources for this fact-check (https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/16/joe-biden/biden-falsely-says-trump-administration-rejected-w/#sources)
Copy-pasta with links:
During Sunday night’s debate (http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/2003/15/se.03.html), while levelling criticism at President Donald Trump’s handling of the national response to the coronavirus pandemic, former Vice President Joe Biden said the Trump administration refused to get coronavirus testing kits from the World Health Organization.
"Look, the World Health Organization offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now. We refused them. We did not want to buy them. We did not want to get them from them. We wanted to make sure we had our own," Biden said.
A similar claim on WHO test kits has also been circulating on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10222850123429995&set=a.1853283860201&type=3&theater).
The Biden campaign referred us to a Politico article (https://www.politico.com/news/2020/03/06/coronavirus-testing-failure-123166) that said the WHO shipped coronavirus tests to nearly 60 countries at the end of February, but the U.S. was not among them. That is technically correct, but it suggests that the United States would have been on the list under any circumstances.
The countries WHO helped are ones that lack the virology lab horsepower that exists across the United States. The outreach work by the Pan American Health Organization is a case in point.
The group is WHO’s arm in the Americas. It conducted trainings and sent materials to conduct tests to 29 nations. The list included Paraguay, Bolivia, Argentina, Chile, Belize, Costa Rica, El Salvador, Honduras, Nicaragua, and many others.
The group said it focused most of its efforts (https://www.paho.org/chi/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1186:directora-de-ops-las-americas-debe-prepararse-para-responder-a-casos-importados-brotes-y-transmision-comunitaria-de-la-covid-19&Itemid=1005) on "countries with the weakest health systems."
"No discussions occurred between WHO and CDC about WHO providing COVID-19 tests to the United States," said WHO spokeswoman Margaret Harris. "This is consistent with experience since the United States does not ordinarily rely on WHO for reagents or diagnostic tests because of sufficient domestic capacity."
According to interviews with several infectious disease experts, Biden’s statement leaves out key context regarding how different countries decided on which test they’d use to identify the presence of the coronavirus.
WHO lists seven different approaches (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/technical-guidance/laboratory-guidance) — including that of China, the United States, Japan, Hong Kong, Thailand, France and Germany — each one targeting different parts of the COVID-19 genetic profile.
Christopher Mores, a global health professor at George Washington University, said that when faced with an outbreak, the WHO will usually adopt the best test that a research group brings forward.
The German one became the approach WHO circulated as its preferred model.
Aid groups, such as the Pan American Health Organization, took that model and built their training and supplies around it. If the model was like the recipe in a cookbook, the supplies were the ingredients in a home meal kit from Blue Apron.
Any country could use whatever recipe it preferred, and even if the United States had picked the WHO’s protocol, it wouldn’t need the WHO to sell it the materials to follow it. Germany released its protocol on Jan. 17 (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/wuhan-virus-assay-v1991527e5122341d99287a1b17c111902.pdf), but the U.S. decided to have the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention develop its own. That protocol was published Jan. 28.
In this instance, this caused a lag in testing for the virus in the U.S.
The CDC’s test was different and more complicated than the German test. It worked in the CDC lab, but when the materials went out to state labs (https://www.propublica.org/article/cdc-coronavirus-covid-19-test), some of them got inconsistent results. The CDC had to resend packages with new chemical reagents.
State laboratories (https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2762951) started developing their own tests and were ready to use them, but had to wait for emergency approval from the Food and Drug Administration. All of this added up to a delay in testing capabilities which resulted in fewer Americans being tested and an overall slower U.S. response compared to other countries.
When asked to respond to Biden’s claim, the Trump campaign pointed to multiple news stories that said it's not uncommon for the U.S. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/10/us/coronavirus-testing-delays.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage) and other countries (https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/what-went-wrong-with-the-coronavirus-tests/2020/03/07/915f5dea-5d82-11ea-b29b-9db42f7803a7_story.html) to develop their own tests during outbreaks, and that the CDC did so during Ebola and Zika outbreaks. The campaign also said the CDC's test had a quick turnaround (https://www.wired.com/story/the-us-fast-tracked-a-coronavirus-test/) compared to other diagnostic tests like MERS and Zika that took months to develop. And the issue with the CDC’s protocol was not the test itself, but rather a manufacturing defect (https://www.wsj.com/articles/manufacturing-defect-in-some-early-cdc-test-kits-being-probed-11583119414), the campaign added.
That’s not how it works
While it might seem odd that the Trump administration shunned the WHO’s coronavirus test protocol, it’s normal for countries with advanced research capabilities to want to develop a measure that they trust.
"I don’t know if WHO agreed to sell the kits to us, but it should never have been something we needed to do given our technological expertise and the fact we would have ‘taken kits from low- and middle-income countries’ that otherwise could not make or afford them," said Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota, in an email.
It’s also unlikely, Mores said, that the WHO offered to sell kits to the U.S., because that’s not normally what the organization does.
"In my experience, this is never something that I would have to purchase," he said.
Typically, Mores said, American labs have all of the basic ingredients and equipment to run the test — all that would be needed is the viral sequences and an exact test protocol. The only catch at the moment is that supplies of those basic ingredients are stretched thin due to high demand.
Our ruling
Biden said, "The World Health Organization offered, offered the testing kits that they have available and to give it to us now. We refused them. We did not want to buy them."
Biden has a point that the U.S. did not attempt to use the WHO test. But the U.S. would never have needed complete kits from WHO. Even if it had adopted the WHO testing approach, it already had access to all the necessary materials.
WHO said there was never any talk of WHO sending testing kits to the United States.
Biden’s words leave out other important context and information.
The U.S. chose to use its own test, rather than the one circulated by WHO. Other nations, such as China, Japan and France, also developed their own tests. Multiple public health experts said that is not unusual.
Biden’s emphasis on WHO offering kits is simply wrong. We rate this claim Mostly False.
What's True
Jared Kushner’s brother, Joshua, is co-founder of the health insurance start-up Oscar, which recently released an online tool to locate COVID-19 testing centers in some areas. At least in the past, Jared Kushner has had a financial interest in Oscar.
What's False (basically the entire effing thing because the facts destroy the underlying reasoning for the conspiracy theory)
Oscar is not involved in the actual process of COVID-19 testing or in the manufacturing of such a test. Oscar created a website — open to the public — that screens users to see if they qualify for a test and then provides a list of testing sites nearby.
MRE veggie omelet ftw amiright?
Notice that even the link you quote points out that the decision to use American tests rather than simply copying the German one caused delays. Just cause Biden got a bunch of facts wrong doesn't mean that the CDC's decision was a good one. It was a bad choice. And I'll still bet money was behind it.'
On the first point, it’s hard to pin down whether the National Security Council staffers were "fired" in 2018, but they certainly left abruptly and have not been replaced, though other leaders in the coronavirus fight have been named in recent days.
CDC operating budget plans show that its funding for global public health protection — which includes global disease detection and emergency response and global public health capacity — increased from $58 million in fiscal year 2017 to around $108 million in fiscal years 2018 and 2019. (And that does not include any remaining supplemental funds available for use.) The increases included nearly $50 million more each year for CDC’s global health security initiatives.
Those amounts went up again in fiscal year 2020, when the CDC was awarded $183 million for global public health protection, overall, and $125 million specifically for its global health security efforts. For fiscal year 2021, President Donald Trump has requested that CDC funding for global disease detection and other programs be increased further — to $225 million total, with $175 million going directly to global health security.
It’s not accurate to say that Trump has been "defunding" the CDC, but he has tried to make cuts in key programs. It’s just that Congress didn’t listen.
The Trump administration’s initial proposals for the budgets for emerging and zoonotic infectious diseases at CDC — a key player in the fight against coronavirus — have consistently been lower than what was spent the previous year. The administration proposed $61.7 million less in 2018 than 2017; $96.4 million less in 2019 than in 2018; $114.4 million less in 2020 than in 2019; and $85.3 million less in 2021 than 2020.
However, Congress reshapes presidential recommendations as they see fit when they craft final spending bills. Every year since Trump has been president, lawmakers have passed bills — bills signed by Trump — that not only exceeded what Trump requested on emerging infections but also exceeded what had been spent the previous year.
jr2, you're going to continue to make a fool of yourself if you don't read the things you are either quoting or responding to.
You folks stay classy in here, and give Maddow my regards. :yes:
If you're not actually talking to anyone on this thread jr2, maybe you shouldn't be quoting people in your post?
But as I pointed out in my previous post, even if you are just standing up for the truth, even if you just think that the truth is super important and everyone needs to know the truth so you have to shout it out onto a thread that never asked you to do so, why are you being so selective about which truths you stand up for?
Why are you misrepresenting the truth in order to argue that the truth is important and shouldn't be misrepresented?
The U.S. is, under this current administration, failing miserably even by the standard of countries like Iran. We have no idea how many people are infected because we literally don't have the same kind of test the rest of the world is using.
Apparently the management of the factory I work at is debating whether or not to shut down due to COVID-19.
I'm not entirely sure what the fulcrum of the debate is. The assembly plants that we supply parts to are all shutting down. All of the suppliers that send us raw materials are shutting down. Even if we're an island of good health, we won't have any material to run or anywhere to send it.
What I am entirely sure about is that cramming 300+ people at a time into one room to make the announcement is probably not the best idea. You know, on account of the contagious disease and such.
*sigh*
Apparently the management of the factory I work at is debating whether or not to shut down due to COVID-19.
I'm not entirely sure what the fulcrum of the debate is. The assembly plants that we supply parts to are all shutting down. All of the suppliers that send us raw materials are shutting down. Even if we're an island of good health, we won't have any material to run or anywhere to send it.
What I am entirely sure about is that cramming 300+ people at a time into one room to make the announcement is probably not the best idea. You know, on account of the contagious disease and such.
but if all of you die they can hire a new work force at lower rates
Personally, we got ordered to work from home starting today until at least April.
Finally, my long training as a borderline recluse is paying off!
Finally, my long training as a borderline recluse is paying off!
As if on cue...
Before Virus Outbreak, a Cascade of Warnings Went Unheeded (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/19/us/politics/trump-coronavirus-outbreak.html)
Apparently branches of the government have been trying to prepare for this for at least 4-5 years. Specifically they did a simulation last year that almost perfectly matches the current outbreak and Trump still proposed cutting the CDC budget again. Most, if not all, warnings have gone unheeded for years.
What timeline is this where we are looking to China as an example of how to treat people? Lol.
The one where China's response, (once they got over the whole downplaying phase), was better organized and more effective than the american one.
But please explain to me how signing a bill once a year absolves this administration from literally all they have(n't) done in the past few years when it comes to, err
not staffing the cdc when people quit
disbanding *the entire pandemic team* after its leader quit
not staffing those gaps either
not having tests ready
lying about how long the disease was in the country (US's first case was in january)
claiming the disease was "under control" in february
not doing any testing to confirm this claim
purposefully leaving people to die in an effort to "not raise the numbers" on how many people were infected
claiming the virus was contained
not doing any testing to confirm this claim
saying that the coronavirus is "Like the flu"
saying the virus will "Disappear like a miracle"
not doing any testing to see if it's actually going away
underplaying the amount of (known) infections by saying they were "lower then just about anybody"
not doing any testing to confirm this claim
Having a 10 minute speech which turned out to be so wrong that various other departments had to correct it
Focusing this speech on how you're preventing the disease from entering the country, completely ignoring that the disease literally already is in the country (since January!) and what you really need is more testing.
Or you can continue to be a coward who shrinks away when confronted with reality.
I'm going to give your entire post a big citation ****ing needed for now though.
I'm going to give your entire post a big citation ****ing needed for now though.
How about you give it an actual response before you get ejected from this thread. Every single one of Josh's points is easy to source; you should be able to come up with a response without being given chapter and verse on every single one.
EDIT: jr2, what's your goal here? There is literally no argument to be made that the US response has been good.
Went to the store yesterday, and besides being low on most canned goods and TP...they were completely out of spinach, lettuce, oatmeal, and ground beef.
Folks are eating some really ****ing weird salads.
I saw a video from fellow teacher here in Xi'an who was explaining that watching his WeChat moments was like watching an entire country slowly lose their minds. And it's very, very true. Literally two weeks ago I looked out of a window and watched two kids play ping pong for a minute with no ball. :D
But the CDC budget was increased, and signed off on by Trump (although I get you're at least stating that he only proposed it, you also have to consider how bargaining works: you propose massive cuts, they propose massive increases, you meet in the middle).
The online furniture retailer Houzz Inc. told operations and administrative staff to come in while the rest of their colleagues went remote. “I have never felt more devalued or disposable as a worker,” said one Houzz worker. That employee, like others who spoke to Bloomberg News, requested anonymity for fear of losing their job. In a statement, the company confirmed that some employees have to work from offices that remain open but said those who expressed concern are able to speak with management or human resources “to find a solution.”
But there are cases in which a company deems itself—and at least part of its workforce—to be essential, requiring employees to take risks. On Wednesday, Tesla Inc. was awaiting final word on the status of its factory in Fremont, California, after Alameda County officials said it is not an essential business. Many employees have still been coming to work.
At American Airlines Inc., for instance, one employee said they were asked to work from the office “as an act of solidarity with frontline members.” A spokesperson said that work from home is allowed at the manager’s discretion and that the company has been working to ensure employees don’t feel pressured to come into the office.
not staffing the cdc when people quit
disbanding *the entire pandemic team* after its leader quit
not staffing those gaps either (https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2020/03/18/coronavirus-did-president-trumps-decision-disband-global-pandemic-office-hinder-response/5064881002/)
not having tests ready (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/14/coronavirus-us-testing-donald-trump)
lying about how long the disease was in the country (US's first case was in january) (https://edition.cnn.com/2020/03/11/politics/fact-check-trump-administration-coronavirus-28-dishonest/index.html)
purposefully leaving people to die in an effort to "not raise the numbers" on how many people were infected (https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-on-allowing-grand-princess-cruise-passengers-to-disembark-id-rather-have-them-stay-on-personally-2020-03-07)
claiming the virus was contained (https://www.businessinsider.com/five-times-the-trump-administration-downplayed-the-coronavirus-2020-3?international=true&r=US&IR=T)
"I don't want to downplay anything," Kudlow said before effectively downplaying the true extent of the coronavirus and its momentum. "Worry about the effect on human beings, for heaven's sake. But I'm just saying, let's not overreact. In many ways, America should stay at work."--Kudlow, Feb 25th -- which, at that time (almost a month ago at this point), it did look relatively contained, and we were less than a month from all the cries of "muh racism" for Trump closing down travel from China on Jan 31st.
"We don't actually know what the magnitude of the virus is going to be, although frankly so far it looks relatively contained."
not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51818627)
saying that the coronavirus is "Like the flu" (https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/stocks-dive-coronavirus-spreads-trump-repeats-risk-covid/story?id=69482971)
saying the virus will "Disappear like a miracle" (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-meeting-african-american-leaders/)
not doing any testing to see if it's actually going away (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-51875871)
underplaying the amount of (known) infections by saying they were "lower then just about anybody" (https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/03/11/fact-check-a-list-of-28-ways-trump-and-his-team-have-been-dishonest-about-the-coronavirus/)
not doing any testing to confirm this claim (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/03/how-many-americans-have-been-tested-coronavirus/607597/)
Having a 10 minute speech which turned out to be so wrong that various other departments had to correct it (https://www.businessinsider.nl/white-house-scrambles-to-clarify-details-on-coronavirus-response-2020-3?international=true&r=US)
Focusing this speech on how you're preventing the disease from entering the country, completely ignoring that the disease literally already is in the country (since January!) and what you really need is more testing.
-You might want to ask China about that. No new infections, right?
While it is a good idea to avoid the spread of lies and misinformation, this is not how it should be done jr2.
I mean, it's not even like you've pointed out anything I didn't know. You're debunking claims no one on this thread has made. Who cares if the problem with the test kits was due to a manufacturing problem or not? A delay in testing is a still a delay. It's still going to cost lives. Why are you glossing over the fact that the German protocol for testing was released long before the American one? That even without the manufacturing error you are pointing out the US would still have been behind. Why are you ignoring that even once the manufacturing defect was cured that there still is a lack of testing going on in the USA? Why are you posting that the claim that Trump fired the pandemic team is debunked but ignoring the fact that many of them resigned and then Trump failed to hire new people to replace them? No pandemic team is no pandemic team. Why have you quoted that CDC funding was increased, but not quoted why!
You know, just about every point you make here you glibly throw in "and he didn't test to confirm it!" at the end. I'm just saying.
Easily explainable if you don't think Trump is literally Hitler: he didn't want to double the number of infections from possible new exposures. Yeah, I know, "REEEEE!" and all.
He means Rachel Maddow, an MSNBC host who often serves as a convenient scapegoat for where "dem lib'rals" get all their news.
The federal government in Germany just announced a general ban on gatherings of more than 2 people, to be enforced by the usual agencies and backed by harsh sanctions (up to 25k €).
NY picked up about 5000 new infections yesterday. Here in NYC we're looking at about one death an hour. Army's looking at setting up field hospitals in stadiums. Witness the true power of The Doubling
Yeah, If I had been offered the choice in China, I would have chosen to stay. If I was offered the choice in the UK, I'd be getting the hell out of town. I find it ironic that it's the Western powers who mainly seem to be competing to see who can be the most irresponisble when it comes to protecting against the virus.
Meanwhile, looks like The Netherlands is on track to make the same mistakes Italy did :banghead: - The population simply isn't taking the social distancing seriously. Reading Dysko's posts as well as reconstructions of the Italian situation only a month ago and seeing the same thing happening here is not making me too hopeful about the coming weeks. Atleast the place I'm at is enforcing quarentine rules, but I do live in a mental health hospital, so I can't fully expect everyone around me to take care of themselves :blah:. Am rather frustrated at my housemates at the moment.NY picked up about 5000 new infections yesterday. Here in NYC we're looking at about one death an hour. Army's looking at setting up field hospitals in stadiums. Witness the true power of The Doubling
Considering that the US was worse at testing then the Netherlands, there will have been people dying of "unidentified lung issues" already to boot :\
It's like setting someone's house on fire to find out who is fireproof.Hey now, that test is 100% effective.
Stay safe batooter. Heard Ohio issued a shelter-in-place, which is honestly surprising given the relatively low numbers of confirmed cases there. Good for them.
So basically the same as the UK or US except with halfway competent leadership. Shows why I'm worried about what's going to happen in the UK given that they thought about it and still managed to come up with that herd immunity bull****.
Does herd immunity even work in this case?
I guess it would in theory...AFAIK there's been no evidence of either re-infection or mutation.
The federal government in Germany just announced a general ban on gatherings of more than 2 people, to be enforced by the usual agencies and backed by harsh sanctions (up to 25k €).
There is no doubt in my mind that we will one day discover a technology that will rapidly and decisively destroy infectious diseases of all types while harming the body minimally. What that technology will end up being, I have not the faintest idea, but I know it will happen.It will be a long road though. Fighting space aliens would probably be easier, at least when it comes to distinguishing a friend from foe.
Oh bloody hell americans
Outer Worlds was not supposed to be a documentary.
Someone's looking at the actuarial tables and thinking to themselves that it's cheaper to let millions die by trying to return to business-as-usual by Easter than it is to continue with current (or more extreme) containment measures and provide the economic relief that those measures necessitate. And given the figures at the head of the federal government, making or rubber-stamping decisions, I suspect that kind of ultra-simplified math, stripped of any human context is quite appealing.
The only "cure" for this kind of pathogen would be to devise a really quick way to test vaccines, in order to turn 18 months of trials and checks into 18 days or something. As far as I can tell, this is complete science fiction.
So no, we will suffer this for many decades still, if not centuries.
And the cringe continues (https://twitter.com/PodSaveAmerica/status/1241041962871881728)
Reporter: What do you say to the americans out there who are scared?
Trumpet: I'll say to them that you're a terrible reporter
He means Rachel Maddow, an MSNBC host who often serves as a convenient scapegoat for where "dem lib'rals" get all their news.
I presume it's just a coincidence that google tells me she's the first open lesbian news anchor?
Judging by current statistics I think there is a good chance the US will end up having the worst response in the entire world to this disease. If not, we'll probably be top 5.
NY picked up about 5000 new infections yesterday. Here in NYC we're looking at about one death an hour. Army's looking at setting up field hospitals in stadiums. Witness the true power of The Doubling
I guess it would in theory...AFAIK there's been no evidence of either re-infection or mutation.
So far we have 400,000 cases worldwide. Herd immunity requires about a hundred times that number. I wouldn't want to roll the dice that an RNA virus (which is a kind famous for a higher mutation rate) won't mutate into something nastier if our entire data set composes of 1% of the cases we would end up with.
****ing incredible (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3?utm_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T)
The only "cure" for this kind of pathogen would be to devise a really quick way to test vaccines, in order to turn 18 months of trials and checks into 18 days or something. As far as I can tell, this is complete science fiction.
So no, we will suffer this for many decades still, if not centuries.
As we all know easter is about sacrificing your grandparents to Nurgle.
Yet another story of the US's failure to test people (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52019509). How the hell does someone who as told by her family doctor that she might have the virus still not know two weeks later!
The national stockpile used to be somewhat more robust. In 2006, Congress provided supplemental funds to add 104 million N95 masks and 52 million surgical masks in an effort to prepare for a flu pandemic. But after the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009, which triggered a nationwide shortage of masks and caused a 2- to 3-year backlog orders for the N95 variety, the stockpile distributed about three-quarters of its inventory and didn’t build back the supply (https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/hs.2016.0129).
The administration of President Donald Trump was tripped up by government rules and conventions, former officials and public health experts say. Instead of drafting the private sector early on to develop tests, as South Korea did, U.S. health officials relied, as is customary, on test kits prepared by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, some of which proved faulty. Then, sticking to its time-consuming vetting procedures, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration didn’t approve tests other than the CDC’s until Feb. 29, more than five weeks after discussions with outside labs had begun.
Meanwhile, in the absence of enough kits, the CDC insisted for weeks on narrow criteria for testing, recommending it only when a person had recently been to China or other hot spots or had contact with someone known to be infected. As a result, the federal government failed to screen an untold number of Americans and missed opportunities to contain the spread, clinicians and public health experts say.
South Korea took a risk, releasing briskly vetted tests, then circling back later to spot check their effectiveness. {{The Elon Musk approach}} By contrast, the United States’ FDA said it wanted to ensure, upfront, that the tests were accurate before they went out to millions of Americans.
“There are always opportunities to learn from situations like this one,” FDA Commissioner Stephen Hahn, who has been on the job only three months, told Reuters. “But one thing I will stand firm on: We cannot compromise on the quality of the tests because what would be worse than no tests at all is wildly inaccurate test results.” {{Which is why you spot-check them, you obfuscating dope - learn to chew gum and walk at the same time}}
In a statement, CDC spokesman Benjamin Haynes said, “This process has not gone as smoothly as we would have liked.” But he said “more and more state labs have come online, increasing our public health system’s ability to detect and respond to cases.”
Bombarded by criticism amid a re-election campaign, Trump vowed on Friday to ramp up production of test kits in partnership with private companies and to make the diagnostic tests more widely available at hospitals and in-store parking lots. This week, the FDA said more than 35 universities, hospitals and lab companies had begun running their own tests, under the agency’s revised policy.
The American social safety net is gone and the private sector has (of course) absolutely no incentive or responsibility to do anything but extract the maximum profit from its workers before they die. Amazon is literally crowdsourcing pay for sick leave, presumably because their ideology of “turn no profit, just reduce costs” has them totally unable to provide for their people.
This is the destination Reagan set a course for. If anyone still believes in the deregulated neoliberal America after this...but who are we kidding. Of course they will.
Yet another story of the US's failure to test people (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52019509). How the hell does someone who as told by her family doctor that she might have the virus still not know two weeks later!
As for testing, apparently this was a bipartisan, multi-administration blunder.
Bloomberg, 2020-3-18 (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/hospital-makes-face-masks-covid-19-shields-from-office-supplies):QuoteThe national stockpile used to be somewhat more robust. In 2006, Congress provided supplemental funds to add 104 million N95 masks and 52 million surgical masks in an effort to prepare for a flu pandemic. But after the H1N1 influenza outbreak in 2009, which triggered a nationwide shortage of masks and caused a 2- to 3-year backlog orders for the N95 variety, the stockpile distributed about three-quarters of its inventory and didn’t build back the supply (https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/hs.2016.0129).
Maybe you want to, oh, I dunno, provide a little context? Kind of effing important
I read that NY is 10x worse than the rest of the nation at the moment. Hopefully it didn't get spread too far, some other state governors are issuing mandatory 14 day quarantine for visitors from NY.
Let me make a comparison: If I were to tell you that taking a shot of alcohol would help with a gum infection, and you went home and chugged an entire bottle of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and died, would that be my fault?
The concern is that we will be heading into much worse territory if society starts to collapse. People need to eat and have a roof + heat which requires fuel, electric, and food, which requires paying other people who also need those things. :rolleyes: If we get to hyperinflation and wheelbarrows of cash you could start seeing more dead from the effects of economics than from the virus (depending on how the virus goes of course).
I don't know what's funnier: That you think Trump's inability to contain his anger at reporters calling him on his bull**** is excusable, or that you think this entire exchange makes Trump look better.
What the hell does an article about masks have to do with testing
Let me make a comparison: If I were to tell you that taking a shot of alcohol would help with a gum infection, and you went home and chugged an entire bottle of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and died, would that be my fault?
Clearly a disaster we can't allow to happen again.
****ing incredible (https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3?utm_source=reddit.com&r=US&IR=T)
Let me make a comparison: If I were to tell you that taking a shot of alcohol would help with a gum infection, and you went home and chugged an entire bottle of Isopropyl rubbing alcohol and died, would that be my fault?
The details are: they took fish tank cleaner, which uses Chloroquine Phosphate, not the Hydroxychloroquine used in the malaria drug, AND, they took IIRC 1.5x the lethal dose ~3,000 mg? Correct dose for COVID would be 500 mg, lethal is 2,000 mg or so I recall. See https://www.rt.com/usa/483908-media-blame-trump-chloroquine for more on that.
And lmao @ anyone who believes an economic downturn is going to do more harm than three million dead Americans
And lmao @ anyone who believes an economic downturn is going to do more harm than three million dead Americans
Japan is remarkable - they have a huge upside-down demographic pyramid, and yet their case and mortality rates are incredibly low.
@Batutta: Depends who is these 3 millions.
For those who didn't notice, the graph The E posted has a log scale on the Y-axis. While China and Italy trended off the exponential path, the US is very much still in trouble.
@BlueFlames: This is one of the slogans that I can't actually comprehend in any way. Just look at it. If the Poor would not be Poor if not for the evil Rich that are stealing their fruits of labor... Then there's absolutely no reason for the Rich tokill these Poorlet these Poor die. Because when Poor are allowed to die, the Rich are losing income.
Okay, you might say. But when the Poor become elderly or ill, they need to have money invested into them in the form of medical services to bring their wealth output back to normal levels, which might be even totally impossible anyway, right? So there's preventative medicine. The Rich would want to not lose income because of the Poor becoming inefficient too early and to not have to invest wealth into them to get them back up to good output levels, and we all know that you need to use prevention because it's much cheaper and less troublesome than healing people later on. So actual medical prevention is more profitable for the Rich...
Then also count in the fact that less overworked and scared of losing income people seem to have actual better efficiency in creating wealth that can be stolen by the Rich, as Microsoft proved in Japan by shortening the work day to 6 hours (https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/nov/04/microsoft-japan-four-day-work-week-productivity) and profiting from it, IIRC.
So where's the "Rich want Poor dead" theme?
We are beating China. We are winning. We have the most cases, huge cases. Beautiful hospital wards, packed wall to wall. The doctors are doing a great job.
https://www.corriere.it/politica/20_marzo_26/the-real-death-toll-for-covid-19-is-at-least-4-times-the-official-numbers-b5af0edc-6eeb-11ea-925b-a0c3cdbe1130.shtml
https://www.corriere.it/politica/20_marzo_26/the-real-death-toll-for-covid-19-is-at-least-4-times-the-official-numbers-b5af0edc-6eeb-11ea-925b-a0c3cdbe1130.shtml
Couldn't the difference also be explained as people who died of other causes because the health service was stretched dealing with Covid-19?
The difference is enormous and cannot be a simple statistical deviation. Demographic statistics have their «constancies» and annual averages change only when completely «new» phenomena arrive.I wanna see those numbers.
No word about toilet paper shortages here in Italy that I know of, is that a US thing?In which area do you live? Here in Bergamo, when I last went to the supermarket 2 weeks ago, it was next to impossible to find, along with denaturated alcohol and clothes detergents.
We did get hand sanitizer shortages though.
Just to have some fun, here is a video of Italian mayors and governors angry with people disobeying orders:
Lipari island, so probably we have it just a tad better than in Lombardy I guess.No word about toilet paper shortages here in Italy that I know of, is that a US thing?In which area do you live? Here in Bergamo, when I last went to the supermarket 2 weeks ago, it was next to impossible to find, along with denaturated alcohol and clothes detergents.
We did get hand sanitizer shortages though.
And now we also ran out of brewer's yeast, as everybody is trying to make pizza at home :lol:
Also...does anyone recall, is the oft-quoted 1% mortality rate based on someone receiving intensive hospitalization, no care, or some overall average of those?
Mortality for COVID-19 appears higher than for influenza, especially seasonal influenza. While the true mortality of COVID-19 will take some time to fully understand, the data we have so far indicate that the crude mortality ratio (the number of reported deaths divided by the reported cases) is between 3-4%, the infection mortality rate (the number of reported deaths divided by the number of infections) will be lower. For seasonal influenza, mortality is usually well below 0.1%. However, mortality is to a large extent determined by access to and quality of health care.
Japan is remarkable - they have a huge upside-down demographic pyramid, and yet their case and mortality rates are incredibly low.
Japan is not testing at *nearly* the same rate as South Korea. (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-japan-testing/japan-uses-just-a-fraction-of-its-coronavirus-testing-capacity-idUSKBN2150ZR) Or, err, at all.
When people talk about "prioritizing the economy":
(https://media.giphy.com/media/gIqusaeYxgSiY/giphy.gif)
A really good article explaining how scientists attempting to model the virus spread using various assumptions has been co-opted to mean partisan "fake models" are being talked about now. Yes it's dumb. Yes it shows an amazing lack of understanding of how science works, but this is apparently the world we live in now.Even worse than that, in many instances it obviously is a deliberate decision to not care. Like a disease of its own.
Hey, at least we know the CCP is. You know. And, uh.. kicking journalists out. But still accurately testing & reporting. :rolleyes: I'd be more inclined to believe them if it was pretty tamped down but basically stopped cold? Yeahhhh.. sure. Imma press X on that.
Like, did China lock the entire country down or just Wuhan and other affected areas? Let's be logical.
jr2, you may still want to answer Karajorma's question or err, explain how you know better then the entire medical world what the best dose of malaria medicine to take for covid 19 is :P
Ballpark. But since you're oh so interested:Quote from: CDCThere are no currently available data from Randomized Clinical Trials (RCTs) to inform clinical guidance on the use, dosing, or duration of hydroxychloroquine for prophylaxis or treatment of SARS-CoV-2 infection. Although optimal dosing and duration of hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID-19 are unknown, some U.S. clinicians have reported anecdotally different hydroxychloroquine dosing such as: 400mg BID on day one, then daily for 5 days; 400 mg BID on day one, then 200mg BID for 4 days; 600 mg BID on day one, then 400mg daily on days 2-5.
Link (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/therapeutic-options.html) for CDC source.QuoteHey, at least we know the CCP is. You know. And, uh.. kicking journalists out. But still accurately testing & reporting. :rolleyes: I'd be more inclined to believe them if it was pretty tamped down but basically stopped cold? Yeahhhh.. sure. Imma press X on that.QuoteLike, did China lock the entire country down or just Wuhan and other affected areas? Let's be logical.
So err, do you believe China went too far or not far enough?
Do you actually read your own posts?
Oh yeah, I almost forgot. Where did 21 million cell phone users (https://www.bing.com/search?q=china%2021%20million%20less%20cell%20phones%20in%20use&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=china%2021%20million%20less%20cell%20phones%20in%20use&sc=1-40&sk=&cvid=A44B1755A2B8443986C6E8B9654E897A) disappear to in the PRC?
Please explain why you are engaging in exactly the sort of flim-flam and half truths you are calling other people out for.
even if you are just standing up for the truth, even if you just think that the truth is super important and everyone needs to know the truth so you have to shout it out onto a thread that never asked you to do so, why are you being so selective about which truths you stand up for?
Why are you misrepresenting the truth in order to argue that the truth is important and shouldn't be misrepresented?
Notice that no one particularly wanted to talk about the subject when it was going on though? Why is it that it's only in March that we're talking about China's failures in December & January? Could it possibly be that people want to distract us away from talking about America's failure in March being talked about in March?
Notice that no one particularly wanted to talk about the subject when it was going on though? Why is it that it's only in March that we're talking about China's failures in December & January? Could it possibly be that people want to distract us away from talking about America's failure in March being talked about in March?
China's cover-up is ongoing. Four of the disappearances/imprisonments that I mentioned took place in February. Ren Zhiqiang disappeared earlier this month.
We all know and agree that China has made mistakes. No one is discussing China because we all agree. There's no discussion to be had!
We passed the 9/11 death toll in the past two days! CONTINUE THE DOUBLING
Can we, as a thread, make an informed decision and ignore jr2's meaningless waffle
China didn't go far enough,
Say what you will about China but they did ultimately handle this crisis really well. Compare to incompetent crackpots in Western authorities such as "masks dont work, travel restrictions are ineffective" CDC and WHO.
The US implemented travel restrictions pretty early.
You may have noted that they did not work.
We all know and agree that China has made mistakes. No one is discussing China because we all agree. There's no discussion to be had!
I wasn't aware of this. I apologize for hijacking the thread.We passed the 9/11 death toll in the past two days! CONTINUE THE DOUBLING
Are we there already? I thought the coronavirus death toll was in the low two thousands.
Whoops you’re right, I should’ve waited 24 hours before declaring 9/11 2. Unless the doubling stopped!
Trump says he'll have done a good job if only 100,000 people die (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/30/trump-says-keeping-us-covid-19-deaths-to-100000-would-be-a-very-good-job)
So the construction jobsite I've been working at is re-opening Monday after being closed for a week. It's a wide open solar field, but there are about a hundred dudes who are going to be staying in motels in town, or carpooling daily, and still sharing the same handful of portable toilets.
But, they are checking everybody's temperature at the gate to make sure they don't have the corona.
I have decided I don't need to be a part of that, and I let them know I won't be in this week.
Having honestly no clue about your constitution, I'm asking genuinely if there any clause where he can get binned for just being bloody bad.
Having honestly no clue about your constitution, I'm asking genuinely if there any clause where he can get binned for just being bloody bad.
Nnnnnnope, at least not in the way you're thinking. The 25th Amendment has a section (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#Section_4:_Declaration_by_vice_president_and_principal_officers) addresses a method whereby the vice-president and majority of the Cabinet can declare their belief that the president is incapable of executing the duties of office. (The section before it gives a method for the president to do the same, i.e. before undergoing anesthesia for surgery.) If this were to occur, a series of steps is laid out which potentially culminates in both the House and Senate needing a two-thirds majority vote in order to confirm it. Were they to do so, then the vice-president would effectively serve as acting president until the current term is up and elections are held. Needless to say, as much as "invoke the 25th" has become a popular hashtag, there's a snowball's chance in hell of it actually happening: the vice-president and Cabinet are sycophantic boot-lickers to a man, and even if they did have a shred of moral fiber, Republicans control the Senate and have more than a 1/3 minority in the House. Basically, no matter how ****ty a president is doing, we're essentially stuck with them through the current four-year cycle.
Now, if you're talking about a president doing something flat-out illegal, obviously there's the separate process of impeachment, but, well, we all saw how that played out.
Yeah, subway sounds like second only to a hospital for infectiousness.
Only in a timeline as f*cked up as this one could the President* of the United States declare a death toll from a virus two to four times deadlier than the entire Vietnam War a "win.""delendus" is more appropriate I think.
I f*cking hate the Trump cult and everyone still in it. GOP delenda est.
Think of all that new real estate on the market 👍👍
China didn't go far enough,
Then you know that what the US is doing right now isn't going far enough either.
If Trump had proposed a nationwide lockdown in late January / early February (while impeachment articles were being delivered and Pelosi, deBlasio, and others were encouraging gathering in mass numbers in NYC and other places, and Italy was doing 'hug a Chinese person' day), you known darn well that every.single.user posting here condemning the US response RIGHT NOW would have been SCREAMING about the DESPOTIC POWER GRAB by the TYRANT Trump that was OBVIOUSLY in response to his HORRIFIC CRIMES that he was being impeached for.
If Trump had proposed a nationwide lockdown in late January / early February...I for one wouldn't have been mad actually (probably). There were some trips I was planning to take around mid-March that I cancelled around early February from an abundance of caution.
(while impeachment articles were being delivered...)Not strictly a direct response, but there's an interesting timeline relating actions and statements regarding impeachment and the outbreak. (https://www.reddit.com/r/Keep_Track/comments/fsxjqy/mitch_mcconnell_states_that_impeachment_delayed/)
(snipped image)I see an opportunity for media literacy here. Shall we actually take a look at the headlines in this collage?
I suspect that a lot of those headlines are probably photoshopped. But one thing I am sure of: That Washington Post "Get a grippe [sic]" headline is fake...simply because anyone with at least a 2nd grade education knows that the word "grip" is NOT spelled with two Ps and an E. The Post would never make a rookie editing mistake like that. :rolleyes:
If jr2 couldn't tell that that headline was faked, then he's not smart enough to realize that he's been taken for a ride by the coronavirus deniers. Or he's just a dumb troll who doesn't believe one word of what he's saying. Either way, his credibility is shot.
Firing people doesn't really compare with "disappearing" them.
We can't even tell what happened to those whistleblowers in China. Were they imprisoned? Tortured? Harvested? Who knows.
I saw this coming (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/03/17/trump-dissed-coronavirus-pandemic-worry-now-claims-he-warned-about-it.html), claims man who said it was going to be fine in january.
"We're seeing this coming (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200131-sitrep-11-ncov.pdf?sfvrsn=de7c0f7_4)" says world health organization in January.
No one saw this coming, says man who shows images of... err...
regional news sources and gaming news websites downplaying the virus and other websites mentioning that it doesn't kill everyone and spreads quickly, or at the time of writing hasn't spread very far.
Gee it's almost as if this virus wouldn't have been as much of a big deal because everyone counted on proper measures being taken!
You know mabye it's better if JR2 leaves the thread considering how much of an embarrassment this is. It's like he hasn't even read what any of those snippets say!
i am sorry, i retract my personal attacks on the author and merely note that in substance jr2's posts are exclusively either a) mindbogglingly wrong or 2) totally inane regurgitations of some random news article
in fairness to him he has stuck entirely to category a) in this thread as he has been in Trump Defence Mode throughout
edit to add: in further fairness to him this is still, of course, all the fault of the chinese
Oh look, Trump has tried to divert PPE manufacturing bound for allied countries into the US alone. Y'know, including in linked, integral supply chains like those between the US and Canada. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-3m-to-make-more-face-masks-ramp-up-imports-to-us-after-trump-order/
Thankfully 3M is pushing back.
Oh look, Trump has tried to divert PPE manufacturing bound for allied countries into the US alone. Y'know, including in linked, integral supply chains like those between the US and Canada. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-3m-to-make-more-face-masks-ramp-up-imports-to-us-after-trump-order/
Thankfully 3M is pushing back.
This is outrageous (of the US). I'd like to see anyone try to defend it.
Oh look, Trump has tried to divert PPE manufacturing bound for allied countries into the US alone. Y'know, including in linked, integral supply chains like those between the US and Canada. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/us-politics/article-3m-to-make-more-face-masks-ramp-up-imports-to-us-after-trump-order/
Thankfully 3M is pushing back.
To be fair, it's outrageous of the Trump administration. Most of the US voted against the orange sh!tgibbon.
It's crazy to watch people, in real time, turn into that character in disaster movies who cares more about some petty political/interpersonal bull**** than the Actual Disaster. I never believed in the military guys in The Stand who cared more about covering up the source of the virus than about stopping it, but it turns out they're a documentary!
That's better protective gear than we get in the actual COVID wards.
I presume a lot of dental procedures aerosolise the particles hence the spacesuit?
Or in the case of Boris Johnson try to suggest that everyone should get the virus instead of, you know, not get the virus. If Trump's plan was to keep denying that the light at the end of the tunnel was a train speeding towards him, Boris' was an attempt to derail the train using only his testicles.
I found this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9GYTc53r2o
Whether it is true or not, I don't know.
And whose fault would that be?
Don't forget the illuminati, 5G, media empires, aliens, daleks, aztecs and rolex.
Bo "shaking hands with everybody" Jo in ICU...
I've said to friends a few times - I don't wish death from this on anyone, but a good bout of prolonged misery and suffering is cosmic justice at work in the case of certain individuals.
This isn’t a Pearl Harbor moment where an enemy country attacked America by surprise. This is our Chernobyl moment. Something we could see coming, we had ample warnings about it, but the government ignored the experts and then tried to make it look less bad after it was out of control.
The thing that's really disturbing about jr2 is that he still doesn't give a **** about the disease. He's never managed to make the leap to talking about the pandemic as a serious issue. All he cares about is whether Trump did good or bad and what the liberals think about it.
So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.
According to the preliminary epidemiological investigation, most cases worked at or were handlers and frequent visitors to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. The government reports that there is no clear evidence that the virus passes easily from person to person.
So yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about the truth and are only trying to prove that Trump is great.
Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist. However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world. He's just normal. How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?
Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that. Trump plays it safe. He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down. Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.
https://www.who.int/csr/don/12-january-2020-novel-coronavirus-china/en/
January 12 2020QuoteAccording to the preliminary epidemiological investigation, most cases worked at or were handlers and frequent visitors to the Huanan Seafood Wholesale Market. The government reports that there is no clear evidence that the virus passes easily from person to person.
EDIT: A source for the claim CCP was stonewalling this and knew much earlier: https://nypost.com/2020/02/29/china-officials-knew-of-coronavirus-in-december-ordered-cover-up-report-says/
A top White House adviser starkly warned Trump administration officials in late January that the coronavirus crisis could cost the United States trillions of dollars and put millions of Americans at risk of illness or death.
The warning, written in a memo by Peter Navarro, President Trump’s trade adviser, is the highest-level alert known to have circulated inside the West Wing as the administration was taking its first substantive steps to confront a crisis that had already consumed China’s leaders and would go on to upend life in Europe and the United States
Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist. However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world.
*more bull**** from jr2*
#FakeNews, I pretty much only try to counter what I view as egregious bias (aka TDS). The tipping point was the comment that the US was handling this worse than Iran. You (the people that are lunatic enough to believe that kind of tripe just because Orange Man Bad) can **** right off with that load of bull****. FFS you've got George Conway defending Trump sometimes now. Never Trumpers. Defending Trump. Be better FFS (to the TDS infected in general).
EDIT: And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube. He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January? Early February at the least. K, just checked, January 18
Nope, I don't really expect people to believe that if they are leftist. However I can't countenance false accusations that he's the devil himself and somehow both incredibly stupid and incompetent at the same time as being an evil genius bent on conquering the world. He's just normal. How can anyone with a ****ing straight face claim Trump wasn't taking this seriously enough when we had Pelosi, Newsom, the Nevada governor etc in February encouraging mass gatherings in Chinatown, Mardi Gras, and basically insisting that Trump's only reason for closing off travel to China was racism (instead of simply an abundance of caution, despite the WHO claiming no person to person transmission based on China saving face by burying this for 3 weeks), and THEN turn around and blame Trump for dragging his feet because he basically implied it would blow over?
WHO advises against the application of any travel or trade restrictions on China based on the information currently available on this event.Does mjn's "counterpoint" (basically an statement: we warned but Trump always does the opposite) even carry any information?
Let's see, so 12th Jan, WHO states that nobody should restrict travel to/from China. 29th Jan, the advisor warns about the severity of the danger. Between the two dates two things supposedly happen at the same time: Trump attempts to preemptively reduce traffic with China (jr2, any sources?), and Trump also downplays the risk (anyone?).
Does jr2 even state that Trump did everything perfectly and nothing more could've been done, or it was just inferred because instead of hopping onto the "blame Trump" train he attempted to correct some points of the discussion towards something that doesn't outright blame Trump for everything?
Think about this from Trump's view: the 'experts' claimed this was a nothingburger despite signs counter to that. Trump plays it safe. He probably figures he's gotten ahead of this and shut it down. Not realizing that the situation in China was actually much, much worse than it appeared, and the WHO was relaying bad data from the CCP.
This discussion reminds me of some cases of immigrants being kicked out of the US during Obama's presidency, or having procedures leading to it mostly completed during Obama's presidency and finished by Trump administration. Then they're causing a big ruckus in the television and internet about how "evil Trump has ilegally kicked them out of the US", to the standing ovations of every piece of anti-Trump audience.
Criminal negligence 101. But I'm sure we can also blame the CCP about this. Or the Libs. Or Pelosi, somehow (apparently, the IDW is tasked of doing this).
This discussion reminds me of some cases of immigrants being kicked out of the US during Obama's presidency, or having procedures leading to it mostly completed during Obama's presidency and finished by Trump administration. Then they're causing a big ruckus in the television and internet about how "evil Trump has ilegally kicked them out of the US", to the standing ovations of every piece of anti-Trump audience.
Also, Trump did reduce traffic coming in from China ... long after the virus had already reached the US.
The thing that's really disturbing about jr2 is that he still doesn't give a **** about the disease. He's never managed to make the leap to talking about the pandemic as a serious issue. All he cares about is whether Trump did good or bad and what the liberals think about it.
#FakeNews, I pretty much only try to counter what I view as egregious bias (aka TDS). The tipping point was the comment that the US was handling this worse than Iran. You (the people that are lunatic enough to believe that kind of tripe just because Orange Man Bad) can **** right off with that load of bull****. FFS you've got George Conway defending Trump sometimes now. Never Trumpers. Defending Trump. Be better FFS (to the TDS infected in general).
EDIT: And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube. He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January? Early February at the least. K, just checked, January 18:
EDIT: And just for your information Batts, I follow Styxhexenhammer666 on Youtube. He's been treating this as a serious issue since what, January? Early February at the least.
Also, Trump did reduce traffic coming in from China ... long after the virus had already reached the US.
You know what's funny. No one ever talks about how effective that ban was. How many people do you think travelled to the US in February and March from China AFTER the ban was instituted? A couple of hundred people? Maybe a thousand?
Try 40,000! (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html) 40,000 people who were in China during the virus outbreak have flown to the US in the last two months despite the supposed ban on travel. Now admittedly that is a reduction from the number travelling in January. But if 40,000 people came from China into the US, virtually unscreened, let's not allow anyone to claim that this did very much to halt coronavirus at all. Especially when it was after the virus was already in the country, as you said.
He follows the right YouTube channel. My father is infected, my mother is infected, she got it from him, he got it from his student in a little college in a little town. A man on YouTube said it was a big problem. There is no more room in the morgues so the dead are stacked in trucks. China faked the numbers. The economy has to be saved. The important thing is to assure ourselves that Trump did everything possible. Only sixty thousand will die. No great loss.
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.
<snip quotes>
There are more people dead in my hometown than in all of Iran.
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.
if they are leftist.
if they are leftist.
Any credibility you might have at all just evaporated with these four words. This has nothing to do with political ideology. By EVERY OBJECTIVE MEASURE, the American federal government has failed in its response to this pandemic and made the situation in the United States far worse than it needed to be. The United States had the highest pandemic preparedness rating in the world going into this, and has fared demonstrably worse than every other first-world democracy whose data we can trust. It might actually be doing worse than China, which you keep harping on, although for obvious reasons the Chinese data is untrustworthy.
OMG outer wilds was political commentary after allEveryone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.
When you think about it aren't we still picking up echoes of the Big Bang?? Which just proves reality is the biggest echo chamber of them all???
<snip>
It might actually be doing worse than China, which you keep harping on, although for obvious reasons the Chinese data is untrustworthy.
Everyone else is stuck in an echo chamber, says person whose primary source of news on the coronavirus is an alt-right youtuber.
Yeah, I finally looked this guy up because some alt-right jackass has been spamming his **** for weeks on another forum I visit, and goddamn he's a piece of **** (https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Styxhexenhammer666).
****ing hell, more people are now dying in the US daily then people in other countries have died in total.
AmazinglyPredictably though, trump chooses to blame the WHO (you know the single entity that eradicated smallpox in 81) and threatens to withdraw support.
****ing hell, more people are now dying in the US daily then people in other countries have died in total.
As for the financial interest in chloroquine... Surely every single dollar Trump doesn't earn from this is worthy of any price, including thousands of dead.
Mass graves. Bodies in cheap boxes, piled 3 deep into a shallow pit, because they had no next of kin or their families were unable to pay for an actual funeral. In god damn New York City.
if all you care about is scoring points on some imaginary scoreboard by deflecting criticism of your governments' handling of this affair by pointing out how evil the chinese are
This does not make me furious. This is normal. This does not even register anymore. This is the legacy of a pandemic and we have seen it in Italy and China and every other country that has been hit hard by the virus. And I fail to see why the 'god damn New York City' bit is relevant or should be rage-inducing. If anything, the fact that NYC is a city that tends to stack people like sardines in every social context means that things could be much worse (and might still get worse). At this point, after seeing my neighboring country resort to using military convoys to ship bodies to other cities for cremation, I'm afraid to say that all I can mange is a lukewarm 'OK, this is a thing that is happening' and get back to work.
(just the usual completely infuriating refusal by our leadership to act in the interests of the EU as a whole when we could use our relative good fortune to render aid to others)
There's been a strong "They brought this on themselves" sentiment towards the Italians with the people I've spoken to, which is a bit... yeah.
Before Italy, most of the world didn't realize how great the danger was.
Usually, about 25 people are buried on the island each week, [NY Press secretary Freddi] Goldstein said. But since coronavirus began claiming victims in the US, she said there are 25 people buried there each day.
Despite being called on it multiple times you still only talk about, or apparently give a **** about, who is winning some abstract political game. You have never even tried to appear to give a **** about people dying. You can only bring yourself to mention the dead when you want to claim there aren't too many of them.
This thread debate sections: both sides' issues, summarized (decent job of pointing out that both sides get this wrong)
If feel that people on the right don't understand what this is about. Yes there is a political element to this, there always will be, but that's not the main driving force here. People are shouting at Trump about the Coronavirus because we want to see him doing something useful about it. We want him to realise that his inaction is costing lives. That when he spends two hours giving his briefing instead of governing the country, he's spending time that could actually be better spent making sure that people in his country survive the virus when they would otherwise get sick and die from it. That he shouldn't be concentrating on whether Joe Exotic is in prison or settling debts by purging his perceived enemies from the impeachment. That he has a very important job and he should be doing it!
Trump promotes the use of hydroxychloroquine
Trump owns stock in companies that make it. (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html)
I mean we don't have enough PPE for the hospitals (oh sorry I forgot, the health secretary says we have enough but those damn selfish doctors and nurses keep wasting it), let alone people going shopping.
As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.
As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.
man who believes the world is 6000 years old and climate change isn't real lectures others on ignoring scientific conclusions
Trump's statements that the virus was under control were the consensus of the medical community at the time.
If this doesn't make you furious, if all you care about is scoring points on some imaginary scoreboard by deflecting criticism of your governments' handling of this affair by pointing out how evil the chinese are, get. ****ing. lost. Leave this forum and never, ever return.
Posting without my moderator hat on, I need to defend jr2 and Trump here. I haven't watched jr2's videos, but there is an abominable amount of misinformation being published by the media. As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.
For example:
The Coronavirus Task Force was formed on January 29 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/statement-press-secretary-regarding-presidents-coronavirus-task-force/). The travel ban from China was instituted on January 31 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-2019-novel-coronavirus/), one day after WHO declared the virus a "global emergency". The travel ban from Europe was instituted on March 11 (https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/proclamation-suspension-entry-immigrants-nonimmigrants-certain-additional-persons-pose-risk-transmitting-2019-novel-coronavirus/).
Trump's statements that the virus was under control were the consensus of the medical community at the time. Even as late as March 1 Governor Cuomo said (https://archive.fo/cX4gO#selection-691.86-691.116) "there’s no reason for concern" and on March 11 Mayor DeBlasio said (https://ny.eater.com/2020/3/11/21175497/coronavirus-nyc-restaurants-safe-dine-out) "If you’re not sick, you should be going about your life".
New York has been the hardest hit in the US from the virus. Why aren't the media going after Cuomo and DeBlasio like they're going after Trump?
do you even read your own posts
Like at this point it's abudently clear that you don't actually read other people's posts or err, the tweets you randomly include in your posts. You're just failing at basic literacy.
I mean there really is no moderate right anymore in the anglosphere.
it should constantly be pointed out that in the eyes of the wider world the US has gone off the deep end.
I haven't watched jr2's videos, but there is an abominable amount of misinformation being published by the media. As a general rule, they will blatantly lie and misrepresent the current situation, Trump's actions, future projections, and even scientific conclusions.
...
If you are getting most of your "news" from the mainstream media then you have been deceived, perhaps a little, perhaps a lot.
I don't get the 6000 year old thing.
Is it true and if so, why is it relevant?
See this clip of Trump spewing that nonsense. (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-44959340/donald-trump-what-you-re-seeing-and-what-you-re-reading-is-not-what-s-happening)
Maybe you should even consider whether partisan affiliation has blinded you to other major threats coming our way. Threats whose consequences will care as little for cable TV talking points, Twitter screenshots, and retrospective 'we couldn't have known' assessments as this disease.
What matters, right now, is that thousands of people are dying.
What matters, right now, is that the USA's response has been incompetent and ineffective, and that this failure has enormously magnified the number of deaths.
What does not matter is who said what on cable TV on which day. It does not matter whether some national office declared that everything would be fine (it was manifestly not fine). It does not even matter that Donald Trump is president. What matters is that those in power have failed. Whoever they are, they failed to identify and act against a terrible threat.
Was there something specific about Trump and his government to blame for this failure? Maybe. You can argue about that. But you cannot do so by denying that a terrible failure has occurred at all.
Why would people call Trump supporters a death cult? Why would they be so unfair, so irrational, so emotional as to use that language?
Maybe because support for Trump seems more important to you than six hundred thousand sick people and counting. Maybe because it seems like support for Trump obliges you to disavow the scale and severity of this disease.
Maybe you should even consider whether partisan affiliation has blinded you to other major threats coming our way. Threats whose consequences will care as little for cable TV talking points, Twitter screenshots, and retrospective 'we couldn't have known' assessments as this disease.
Okay, so if the task force was formed at the end of January, why did they wait until mid-March to do anything? Why weren't they preparing plans and guidance for social distancing, contact tracing, scaling up testing to isolate cases, scaling up PPE production and hospital beds and ventilators in the event this escalated into a full-blown crisis.
CDC has launched an aggressive public health response focused on early case recognition, isolation of those cases identified, and contact tracing around those individuals. This response is a layered response, which includes both targeted airport screening, as well as heightened education and awareness of the American healthcare community to be vigilant in ascertaining the possibility of recent travel to China when they are evaluating patients with upper respiratory tract infection.
And so, domestically, we’re working on — working with our private sector healthcare preparedness. We’re working specifically around supply chain resilience because much of our healthcare products come from overseas. And we’re also working actively with NIH and our DOD colleagues, as well as our DARPA colleagues and the private industry to develop better diagnostics, possible therapeutics, as well as vaccines, which Dr. Fauci can speak more about.
But we’re very, very ready for this, for anything — whether it’s going to be a breakout of larger proportions or whether or not we’re — you know, we’re at that very low level, and we want to keep it that way.
...
The Johns Hopkins, I guess — is a highly respected, great place — they did a study, comprehensive: “The Countries Best and Worst Prepared for an Epidemic.” And the United States is now — we’re rated number one. We’re rated number one for being prepared. This is a list of different countries. ... This is a list of the different countries. The United States is rated number one most prepared. United Kingdom, Netherlands, Australia, Canada, Thailand, Sweden, Denmark, South Korea, Finland. These — this is a list of the best-rated countries in the world by Johns Hopkins.
We’ll also be continuing to reach out to governors, state and local officials. In fact, in recent days, the White House met with over 40 state, county, and city health officials from over 30 states and territories to discuss how to respond to this — to the potential threat of the coronavirus. We’ll be working with them in renewed ways to make sure they have the resources to be able to respond.
Q Mr. President, have you been any plans that would involve quarantined cities, like we saw in China? And what would have to happen for you to take a step like that?
THE PRESIDENT: We do have plans of a much — on a much larger scale, should we need that. We’re working with states, we’re working with virtually every state. And we do have plans on a larger scale if we need it. We don’t think we’re going to need it, but, you know, you always have to be prepared.
Q Mr. President, should Americans be going out getting protective equipment such as masks and so forth? And if so, what is the U.S. doing to boost production of masks?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we can get a lot of it. In fact, we’ve ordered a lot of it just in case we need it. We may not need it; you understand that. But in case — we’re looking at worst-case scenario. We’re going to be set very quickly.
I mean, I know Trump spews this rhetoric on a daily basis so I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people who are generally intelligent individuals have started to believe it for real. Of course, that was his goal all along.
See this clip of Trump spewing that nonsense. (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-44959340/donald-trump-what-you-re-seeing-and-what-you-re-reading-is-not-what-s-happening) "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening" Once his base believes that, of course Trump is now the only one they can trust. It's dictatorship 101 to do this stuff. How do you not see it? It's dangerous, it's hateful, and it's literally splitting our country in two.
Goob and jr2, you continue to tell on yourselves by constantly fixating on the issue of who's to blame, whether coverage of the blame is fair, whether people are blaming Trump too much, whether there's 'misinformation,' whether someone's team is winning or losing.
The deafening silence around the actual, objective matter at hand is telling.
A bunch of churches in my area decided that they were going to do their regular Easter service today. This was a permitted exception in Governor Bill Lee's stay-at-home order. We'll see if those decisions lead to the infection rate climbing higher over the next week or two.
What matters to me is the truth. In order to be objective, one must possess accurate information.
. . .
Nobody has the full picture, and the parts of the picture we do have are contradictory, incomplete, and often fraudulent. So it comes down to who you trust.
A bunch of churches in my area decided that they were going to do their regular Easter service today. This was a permitted exception in Governor Bill Lee's stay-at-home order. We'll see if those decisions lead to the infection rate climbing higher over the next week or two.
That stain on the human species Salvini tried to have it as an exception here too, considering there have been cases of contagion due to imbeciles that decided to have their prayer community reunions when the lockdown orders were already issued I'd say there are good probabilities of that happening.
Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?
Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?
Trump has kicked the chair away so many times now that I honestly don't know what he could do to persuade his faithful to turn on him.
In the U.S., testing data isn't being collated by a government agency.
A bunch of churches in my area decided that they were going to do their regular Easter service today. This was a permitted exception in Governor Bill Lee's stay-at-home order. We'll see if those decisions lead to the infection rate climbing higher over the next week or two.
That stain on the human species Salvini tried to have it as an exception here too, considering there have been cases of contagion due to imbeciles that decided to have their prayer community reunions when the lockdown orders were already issued I'd say there are good probabilities of that happening.
I thought Sally wasn't part of the government anymore?
Trump has retweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1249470237726081030) a call to fire Fauci.
Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?
Trump has retweeted (https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1249470237726081030) a call to fire Fauci.
Trump's stupidity knows no bounds. Firing Fauci would be political suicide... right?
Turns out that openly correcting Trump on live television gets you enemies amongst the fascists. Who would have thought?
We have the death counts. The number of people who are dead. But all you can do is pick at media accounts; all your energy and your communications bandwidth is bent to one purpose. And it's not giving a **** about the dead. It's protecting a politician from criticism.
And that is the sort of thing that as a Christian, people like Goober could be helping with. Convincing these people that God will listen to them just as well at home. That it isn't worth leaving your house and risking the health of the entire community because of a desire to do something you can do at home.
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church. Man does not live on bread alone.
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church. Man does not live on bread alone.
We have the death counts. The number of people who are dead. But all you can do is pick at media accounts; all your energy and your communications bandwidth is bent to one purpose. And it's not giving a **** about the dead. It's protecting a politician from criticism.
False. You are expressly contradicting the second paragraph of my first post in this thread (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1895961#msg1895961) - which even named you specifically.QuoteThis is not to take away from the very real threat posed by the pandemic, and my sympathies go to Battuta's family and anyone else who may be affected by the virus or may have family or friends affected.
Now was that a lie, or did you just overlook that part of the post?
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church. Man does not live on bread alone.
We have the death counts. The number of people who are dead. But all you can do is pick at media accounts; all your energy and your communications bandwidth is bent to one purpose. And it's not giving a **** about the dead. It's protecting a politician from criticism.
False. You are expressly contradicting the second paragraph of my first post in this thread (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=96228.msg1895961#msg1895961) - which even named you specifically.
Now was that a lie, or did you just overlook that part of the post?
National health security is fundamentally weak around the world, and no country is fully prepared to handle an epidemic or pandemic, according to the first comprehensive assessment and benchmarking of health security and related capabilities across 195 countries.The point is, the study (at least in my cursory and decidedly non-expert opinion) was measuring the wrong things. Not unimportant things, definitely not, but it had blind spots that, as it turned out, were pretty important.
Also wash your hands.
[earnest german engagement with goober]
I think you should go from this community. I think it's long overdue. You do not belong in this company.
The only reason he's still here is that a) he owns parts of the server infrastructure and b) like any true evangelist (both for his brand of protestantism and for Trump, the idol of Owning The Libs) he feels gratified by spreading the good word to the unbelievers, even if they are clearly having none of it.
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church. Man does not live on bread alone.
Everyone knows that Goober has done a lot for this community. Let's keep FreeSpace and GenDisc separate.
EDIT: That said, you do belong into this community and do not let anyone convince you otherwise. Political and world view disagreements are totally orthogonal and unimportant compared to our shared love of FreeSpace. That is why we are ultimately here, and I think everyone ought to be welcome here. Maybe even them commies
Political and world view disagreements are totally orthogonal and unimportant compared to our shared love of FreeSpace.
If you're allowed to go to the supermarket, you're allowed to go to church. Man does not live on bread alone.
There's probably something to be said about an ethics of 'no one should feel unwelcome, even if they have called for people to die.' It's very, very nerd.
At least in this thread, there isn't a single instance where Goober has "called for people to die" (admittedly, I haven't been around long enough to know Goober or his beliefs outside this thread). Is he defending practices, policies and beliefs that are almost certainly going to result in people dying? Sure. But that's not the same thing.
If we can't talk to folks on the "other side" and try to see where they're coming from, we're pretty well ****ed as a society already. I'm only active in a few forums, but I appreciate having people whom I fundamentally disagree with in them, because it forces me to examine what I believe and why. I don't know about you all, but I'm not so fragile that I can't stomach someone disagreeing with me, even in the face of a crisis like COVID.
I'll throw my .02 in here. I think a lot of folks in this thread are having a very hard time distinguishing between malicious intent and dangerous (even willful) ignorance. Giving other folks the benefit of the doubt, I tend to believe Goober et al. fall more into the latter category than the former. At least in this thread, there isn't a single instance where Goober has "called for people to die" (admittedly, I haven't been around long enough to know Goober or his beliefs outside this thread). Is he defending practices, policies and beliefs that are almost certainly going to result in people dying? Sure. But that's not the same thing.
If we can't talk to folks on the "other side" and try to see where they're coming from, we're pretty well ****ed as a society already. I'm only active in a few forums, but I appreciate having people whom I fundamentally disagree with in them, because it forces me to examine what I believe and why. I don't know about you all, but I'm not so fragile that I can't stomach someone disagreeing with me, even in the face of a crisis like COVID.
In other news, the Trump campaign has helpfully provided a timeline (https://www.donaldjtrump.com/media/timeline-the-trump-administrations-decisive-actions-to-combat-the-coronavirus/) of the administration's actions in response to the virus.
There are times where an issue has two opposing stances and it's valuable to see both sides. This is not one of them. Nor are many other critical issues of our times. I was just thinking about this earlier, actually—how people mistake the existence of two sides for the existence of a 'truth in the middle.' It's South Park logic, both-sides-ism. The fetishism of 'balance.' Create a reasonable position and a conspiracy theory and there's always someone who insists on Teaching the Controversy, because simply shutting one side down as nonsense is emotionally difficult and causes fights.
Some questions simply have a right answer.
Classy move calling folks whose lives are in danger and who don't want to see more deaths 'fragile.' Might want to rethink that one. When your local government has to make a decision between containing COVID and, well, not containing COVID, I hope your immune system isn't so fragile that it can't stomach someone disagreeing with it.
this timeline accurately shows that trump took no measures to curb the spread of the disease throughout all of February
April 6: President Trump had a “very friendly” phone call with former Vice President Joe Biden to discuss the coronavirus.
April 4: President Trump tweeted encouragement to American children unable to start their Little League baseball season on time due to coronavirus.
April 9: CMS temporarily suspended a number of regulations so that hospitals, clinics, and other health care providers can book the number of staff to confront the coronavirus
My argument (belief, whatever) is simply that we're better off not just dismissing people with whom we disagree as "unreachable" and asking them to leave a community. In my mind, that's being fragile because it's far easier to just say "no, go away you're wrong" than to keep talking to them.
Again this fixation on polls, statements, approval, disapproval, who thinks what about who: trying to construct a narrative out of what's happened. But all that is ultimately unimportant, because the inalterable Lacanian truth is the death count. It is large. It is bigger than it needed to be.
Something went wrong. I think it is fine to argue about what that is, and to disagree on who's to blame. I don't personally think Trump did a good job, but we have no hard indisputable evidence another President would have done better given the same circumstances. And the President is only one part of a large mechanism.
What I don't think is fine is denying or minimizing that something went wrong, and that thousands of people died as a result. You have to begin there to have any decency.
It's kind of hard to argue with the death count; it is what it is.
In the case of, say, an earthquake, the main thing that went wrong was nature.
Hey remember when I said that the New York death toll was likely higher? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html)
It's higher.
Meanwhile, the delivery of checks for the promised 1200 USD for every US citizens is delayed.... because Trump or one of his toadies decided that it was essential that his name be written on those checks.
<snip> Does Trump really need validation and recognition that much?</snip>
Eh, this is exactly the same what our currently governing party did as one of their main campaign points. To bribe the people with their own money and make them think these funds magically appeared due to the genius of the party leaders.
Which worked flawlessly.
<snip>
A few weeks ago everyone in the states got little postcards that said "President Trump's coronavirus guidelines for America". I never saw anything in the news about it, but I thought... huh. Shouldn't this be the CDC's guidelines? Trump isn't a doctor. I'm sure he forced his name onto the postcard for the same reason. My wife threw it out or I'd take a picture and post it.Huh. We never got one of those. But you're probably right about why his name is on it.
Unfortunately that is too high a value cheque to send it back with "Eat **** Bob" written on it.
- It is absolutely shocking how partisan this entire issue was from the beginning. Left bashing the right, right bashing the left. Both have good points at times, but this is the one time I (and i would think America as a whole) would want to see the politics put aside. Who cares about the upcoming election. Maybe that's just me.
<snip>
* The one exception here is Brazil, which political situation incidentally could also be described as "shockingly partisan"
There's a point where the cost of the cure is more than the cost of the disease itself.
There's a point where the cost of the cure is more than the cost of the disease itself.
This isn't actually true. The choices currently are:
1. Measures that are designed to prevent healthcare system collapse, but an economic collapse, or
2. Healthcare collapse AND economic collapse.
There is no magic third option where we mitigate economic damage. The economic damage comes with us either way.
Even here it's similar to what you described with the Governors in the US, actually. The governors of most Brazilian states are trying to follow the WHO's recommendations in general. Even the governors of Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo, who are decidedly right-wing and who both campaigned as allies of Bolsonaro have positioned themselves 100% against him on this.
Whelp. The Brazilian Health Minister has been fired.
tens of thousands of people die, then the economy is going to crater anyway just because so many people who had been contributing to the economy can't contribute anymore because they're frickin' dead
Whelp. The Brazilian Health Minister has been fired.
The President was angry that he was stealing his limelight, basically. Everyone was looking to the minister for what to do rather than the President, so that didn't sit right with the Dumbass-in-Chief. Besides, Bolsonaro's approval had long been in the mid to low 30%s, now it's in the low 20%s. While the minister's had risen to above 70%.
If the state govts manage to handle the **** to come, fine, but the tiny amount of federal support from the Health Ministry was still better than nothing. The new Health Minister will certainly be a handpicked to be an ass-kisser for Bolsonaro.
Trump's Bolsenaro North tbh. Bolsenaro always seems to take it a step further.
The main difference between them both in the pandemic is that while Trump was doing nothing to help, Bolsonaro was actively attempting to hinder the ones who were doing something.
This. 1,000 times this. I find those Republican politicians saying that it's better to let older Covid victims die rather than allow social distancing to run the economy into the ground to be utterly sociopathic and stupid. I find them sociopathic because, duh, they want a bunch of people to die and I find them stupid because if tens of thousands of people die, then the economy is going to crater anyway just because so many people who had been contributing to the economy can't contribute anymore because they're frickin' dead. Just as MP-Ryan said, the economic damage from the coronavirus is locked in, no matter what we do. All that can be done now is to mitigate the damage as best we can. Republicans can either help Democrats do just that, or get out of the way. If they don't get out of the way, then they'll have to face angry voters in November.I don't know that I've heard anyone suggest one of those two extremes. I think the Texas governor several weeks ago mentioned there would be a point where older individuals or those more at risk (underlying health conditions, etc) would, at some point, be responsible for their own safety, in that they'd need to be the ones staying home, and avoiding exposure.
This isn't actually true. The choices currently are:True, but I'm sure you'll agree that "economic damage" is not binary. There are certainly differing levels.
1. Measures that are designed to prevent healthcare system collapse, but an economic collapse, or
2. Healthcare collapse AND economic collapse.
There is no magic third option where we mitigate economic damage. The economic damage comes with us either way.
Plus, you know, losing your job isn't a disaster in the same way that permanent lung damage is. All these problems with unemployment can be solved, just not in ways that appeal to Republican politicians.Spoken like someone that is not struggling to put food on the table. "All these problems with unemployment can be solved" is (if I may, respectfully) a very, very nonchalant way of looking at a situation where countless millions (keywords) of people are reaching a point (if they haven't already reached it) where they are unable to pay their rent, buy medicine, put food on the table, etc. Often they have children. It's very important to step back and look at a situation like this from every vantage point. Not all are as fortunate as we may be. I've had some of the guys I know that work blue-collar warehouse jobs already call asking if I have any food in my freezer that they can have, promising me they'll pay me back some day. It's absolutely devastating. Don't for a second dismiss "these problems with unemployment". 99.9% of married men with young children who have to watch their family do without would take the risk of permanent lung damage in a heartbeat to put food on the table.
I think it's noteworthy that this is not really about "the left bashing the right" and the "right bashing the left", it's that people are bashing the US federal government for not doing what other countries are doing. If you look at whose party is governing the states that have issued "stay-at-home" orders, you'll find that this is hardly a partisan issue. As an outsider, the unique amount of partisanry wrt the Trump administration doesn't shock me at all, it's a natural result of how out-of-place the Trump administration is acting compared to the rest of the world*. There's a massive difference in "not wanting to die from a virus" and "putting your name on congress's grants". Pointing out that the US response has been lacking compared to the rest of the world isn't partisan.
Hol' up. Are you saying it's fine to willingly risk yourselves and all your friends by going to a large gathering where you're going to be close together, breathing and touching and (hopefully not, but probably) coughing on each other?
And why couldn't you do church from home? Basically my entire organization has switched to Zoom, and it's working and nobody's risking infection from it.
Goober are you seriously citing Trump's own campaign propaganda machine as an objective assessment of his administration's response?
I remember, a long time ago, believing that political differences were the result of fundamentally different ways of processing the world
Basically: If the only sources you can find that, in your opinion, are fair to Trump are Trump's PR people and shining examples of human decency like self-admitted rapist Mike Cernovich.... Why isn't that raising any questions for you?
Hey remember when I said that the New York death toll was likely higher? (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/14/nyregion/new-york-coronavirus-deaths.html)
It's higher.
How can anyone defend this kind of behaviour? Even if you don't think Trump made mistakes, surely this isn't the time for this? If he did it after the pandemic was dealt with it would still be petty and stupid but during the pandemic? How can anyone believe that this was the right thing to do?
The first rule of a crisis is "avoid making things worse". Given that the W.H.O. has been shown to be not only ineffective but also criminally negligent, it should be of paramount importance to prevent them from causing further damage.
Math is math no matter who does it.
They are literally just making up numbers at this point.
Basically: If the only sources you can find that, in your opinion, are fair to Trump are Trump's PR people and shining examples of human decency like self-admitted rapist Mike Cernovich.... Why isn't that raising any questions for you?
For goodness's sake, this is the genetic fallacy. Why, when I post an article containing mathematical calculations, do you completely ignore the calculations and talk about the author? Math is math no matter who does it.
You citing as evidence talking points prepared by the Donald J Trump ForGod-EmperorPresident campaign while in the same breath decrying partisanship and bias is a level of hypocrisy I have seldom seen.
Spoken like someone that is not struggling to put food on the table. "All these problems with unemployment can be solved" is (if I may, respectfully) a very, very nonchalant way of looking at a situation where countless millions (keywords) of people are reaching a point (if they haven't already reached it) where they are unable to pay their rent, buy medicine, put food on the table, etc. Often they have children. It's very important to step back and look at a situation like this from every vantage point. Not all are as fortunate as we may be. I've had some of the guys I know that work blue-collar warehouse jobs already call asking if I have any food in my freezer that they can have, promising me they'll pay me back some day. It's absolutely devastating. Don't for a second dismiss "these problems with unemployment". 99.9% of married men with young children who have to watch their family do without would take the risk of permanent lung damage in a heartbeat to put food on the table.
Spoken like someone that is not struggling to put food on the table. "All these problems with unemployment can be solved" is (if I may, respectfully) a very, very nonchalant way of looking at a situation where countless millions (keywords) of people are reaching a point (if they haven't already reached it) where they are unable to pay their rent, buy medicine, put food on the table, etc. Often they have children. It's very important to step back and look at a situation like this from every vantage point. Not all are as fortunate as we may be. I've had some of the guys I know that work blue-collar warehouse jobs already call asking if I have any food in my freezer that they can have, promising me they'll pay me back some day. It's absolutely devastating. Don't for a second dismiss "these problems with unemployment". 99.9% of married men with young children who have to watch their family do without would take the risk of permanent lung damage in a heartbeat to put food on the table.
The first rule of a crisis is "avoid making things worse". Given that the W.H.O. has been shown to be not only ineffective but also criminally negligent, it should be of paramount importance to prevent them from causing further damage.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the WHO will probably already have any money for at least part of this year from America anyway. So how is defunding them going to stop them from doing anything?
What it will do is add political pressure to do what Trump wants to regain their funding.
Republicans can either help Democrats do just that, or get out of the way. If they don't get out of the way, then they'll have to face angry voters in November.
GIVE ONE example of how the World Health Organization has been "criminally negligent" ONE.
I agree with you that it shouldn't be a partisan issue, but it appears to be.
Each evening I'll watch the white house briefing, and then a few minutes of each 'side' argue (Fox/CNN).
What it will do is add political pressure to do what Trump wants to regain their funding.
2. WHO erroneously said that travel restrictions are ineffective.
The thing about the German Kurzarbeit, similar models, even the cash stimulus payouts here in the us...these measures geared towards mitigating economic damage, saving the economy, however you want to put it... They're untested. They're essentially experimental for the kind of long-term shutdowns that seem to be necessary here. They also carry a hefty financial butcher's bill of their own, and at some point aaaallll that money our govts have spent trying to save the economy needs to be paid back in some form. Thats a scary unknown for policy makers, hence the push for the return to "business as normal" because at least we all sort of understand how that functions. I'm not arguing for or against anything here... Just positing some food for thought.
the US and Italy both implemented travel restrictions. They were ineffective.
What are you talking about, social security is far from "untested". The scale of this crisis is unprecedented,
too little and too late.
No, they were effective, even if they came too little and too late. Situation would be worse without them and they do slow down the curve. And that is why most of the world has corona-related travel restricitions implemented as of right now.
What are you talking about, social security is far from "untested". The scale of this crisis is unprecedented, but the basic mechanisms behind our social security do not care; We know that there's going to be a bit of deficit spending in the medium term, but here's the thing: That's not catastrophic either. Instead of seeing it as a debt, see it as an investment (which it is): By spending money now to keep people's lives and jobs as intact as possible, we're banking on a return on investment in a few years or decades.
I mean, what can they do? the WHO recommended states to go for early detection, testing, tracing and social distancing according to risk from february onwards (https://www.who.int/news-room/detail/30-01-2020-statement-on-the-second-meeting-of-the-international-health-regulations-(2005)-emergency-committee-regarding-the-outbreak-of-novel-coronavirus-(2019-ncov)), advice which the Trump administration completely ignored but is now praising itself for implementing. They can't exactly pressure the WHO to err, go back in time and not give the advice the US refused to listen to?
1. WHO erroneously said that healthy general population did not need to wear masks.
WHO erroneously said that travel restrictions are ineffective.
Italy implemented a full ban on travel to and from china from january the 31st onwards as soon as they detected the Coronavirus. (https://www.thelocal.it/20200131/italy-suspends-all-china-flights-after-coronavirus-cases-confirmed-in-rome/) It was the only EU country to do so.
It's also the EU country most affected by the outbreak.
This is similar to your other argument where you are taking an idealistic view of how to prevent the spread of a disease while the actual experts in doing so have the experience to know why that won't work and actually try to make suggestions based on the best data they have.
Prove it was erroneously. There's actually no scientific proof whatsoever that use of masks cuts down transmissions at all. Weigh that up against the danger of people panic buying PPE equipment
a medical mask is not required, as no evidence is available on its usefulness to protect non-sick persons. However,masks might be wornin some countries according to local culturalhabits. If masks areused, best practices should be followed on how to wear, remove, and dispose of them and on hand hygiene action after removal (see below advice regarding appropriate mask management).
So now you're trying to bull**** me about what the WHO said about masks?
If you are healthy, you only need to wear a mask if you are taking care of a person with suspected 2019-nCoV infection
a medical mask is not required, as no evidence is available on its usefulness to protect non-sick persons.
Evidently you don't understand what "Not effective" means. Not required does not mean not effective.
I think you and Joshua are absolutely right about what will be the result of trying to pressure the WHO. But that doesn't mean that Trump isn't arrogant enough to believe it will play out in his favour.
Just out of interest, what caused the WHO to start recommending cloth masks? I never heard an explanation for the change.
You're mistaking my intent here, so maybe I wasn't clear. It isn't to defend Goober's beliefs, nor is it to say "the truth is in the middle," because in this case it absolutely is not. You're correct, there are often such things as objective truths and right answers. My argument (belief, whatever) is simply that we're better off not just dismissing people with whom we disagree as "unreachable" and asking them to leave a community. In my mind, that's being fragile because it's far easier to just say "no, go away you're wrong" than to keep talking to them. I know it's been tried in this thread with limited success...that's good. Keep trying, is my point. Maybe this short aside will help illustrate what I'm trying to say: One of the biggest struggles in my field is how to shift attitudes and policies regarding climate change, particularly in conservative areas. And what we've found (studies have been done!) is that the answer isn't just to say "go away you're wrong," but rather to try and find areas where meaningful dialogue can take place (even though they are wrong). Common ground.
I have all the empathy in the world for those living in the hardest hit areas, and all the admiration in the world for those who are risking their lives to help (including, apparently, your partner, Battuta). You're in the worst place in the US for this, and that has got to be terrifying. I'm scared too...because it's ****ing scary.
Hi. Actually guy with a genetics degree here and hefty immunology course load. Wife is a public health RN. And I read journal articles and studies because I'm a nerd like that/
5. Conclusion: Facemask use demonstrated mixed results, but a randomized control trial suggests that it is effective.
The vast majority of people wear masks incorrectly (removing them to talk, not practicing proper hygiene, not maintaining a sterile zone) and they have been proven to increase risk of transmission via a false sense of security.
SARS-CoV-2 is droplet transmission and only aerosolized by certain medical procedures
The first large-scale community test of 3,300 people in Santa Clara County found that 2.5 to 4.2% of those tested were positive for antibodies -- a number suggesting a far higher past infection rate than the official count.
Based on the initial data, researchers estimate that the range of people who may have had the virus to be between 48,000 and 81,000 in the county of 2 million -- as opposed to the approximately 1,000 in the county's official tally at the time the samples were taken.
“Our findings suggest that there is somewhere between 50- and 80-fold more infections in our county than what’s known by the number of cases than are reported by our department of public health," Dr. Eran Bendavid, the associate professor of medicine at Stanford University who led the study, said in an interview with ABC News' Diane Sawyer.
If this holds true across other locales, that means as more antibody testing comes online over the next few weeks, the death rate as a percentage will decline.
As for the masks... even if you contaminate yourself by touching the mask, and then subsequently other items you touch, you're still at least partially protected from spraying your stuff around while talking or, God forbid, sneezing. Say, in a store - even if you touched your own mask with your hands or single use gloves, if you keep to touching only products that you are taking with yourself and surfaces that are frequently sanitised (like shopping basket handles), you're really minimising risks of transmitting anything to others.
If this holds true across other locales, that means as more antibody testing comes online over the next few weeks, the death rate as a percentage will decline.
it will not, however, reduce the absolute number dead, nor the degree of culpability of the american government in those deaths
Study author Dr Shengjie Lai, of the University of Southampton, comments: “Our study demonstrates how important it is for countries which are facing an imminent outbreak to proactively plan a coordinated response which swiftly tackles the spread of the disease on a number of fronts. We also show that China’s comprehensive response, in a relatively short period, greatly reduced the potential health impact of the outbreak.”
The research also found that improved disease detection, isolation of cases and social distancing (for example, the cancelling of large public events, working from home and school closures) are likely to have had a far greater positive impact on containment than travel restrictions. The authors suggest social distancing should be continued for the next few months in China to prevent case numbers increasing again after the lifting of travel restrictions in late February.
Conclusion: The NPIs deployed in China appear to be effectively containing the COVID-19 outbreak, but the efficacy of the different interventions varied, with the early case detection and contact reduction being the most effective.
there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).
Quote from: https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2020/03/covid-19-china.pageStudy author Dr Shengjie Lai, of the University of Southampton, comments: “Our study demonstrates how important it is for countries which are facing an imminent outbreak to proactively plan a coordinated response which swiftly tackles the spread of the disease on a number of fronts. We also show that China’s comprehensive response, in a relatively short period, greatly reduced the potential health impact of the outbreak.”
The research also found that improved disease detection, isolation of cases and social distancing (for example, the cancelling of large public events, working from home and school closures) are likely to have had a far greater positive impact on containment than travel restrictions. The authors suggest social distancing should be continued for the next few months in China to prevent case numbers increasing again after the lifting of travel restrictions in late February.Quote from: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.03.20029843v3Conclusion: The NPIs deployed in China appear to be effectively containing the COVID-19 outbreak, but the efficacy of the different interventions varied, with the early case detection and contact reduction being the most effective.
jr2 you continue to display a staggering inability to actually read the articles and/or tweets you present to us as an argument for the US response. Why do you keep doing this, and why do you shy away from the questions people have previously asked you in this thread?
Florida's governor, DeSantis, already drew criticism for leaving beaches open during spring break. Now, with Florida's daily death toll steadily increasing, beaches are starting to reopen. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229933/Beaches-Florida-start-reopening-EVENING.html)
You yell, "Barracuda!" and everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell, "Shark!"...we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.
And speaking, and breathing, and spitting, and coughing and sneezing..
QuoteYou yell, "Barracuda!" and everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell, "Shark!"...we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.
Did anyone else immediately think the same thing?
downplaying the severity while allowing travel (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/04/us/coronavirus-china-travel-restrictions.html)
Additionally, properly adhering to sterile practice mandates that all items of PPE are single-use and single-use only. Applying these guidelines to the general public is obviously untenable due to the amount required.
Also @maslo: you're exactly the kind of guy who should be wearing a mask and heavy PPE. Stay safe.
there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).
The numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy. So are the numbers from North Korea (which supposedly has 0 cases) and Russia (which supposedly has 273 total deaths).
"I'm not a public health expert but I'm pretty sure they're all wrong and China actually had ten million deaths, the crafty communists just covered it up." Without credible evidence for how many deaths you think the CCP have covered up this is just a conspiracy theory being used to cover up the West's failings.
- I've already mentioned several people who were disappeared or imprisoned in connection with the coronavirus. Their names bear repeating: Fang Bin and Chen Qiushi (journalists), Xu Zhangrun and Xu Zhiyong (academics), and Ren Zhiqiang (real estate tycoon).
- Doctors at the Central Hospital of Wuhan (https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/wuhan-doctors-say-colleagues-died-in-vain-amid-official-cover-up) were banned from communicating critical information to the public. Some doctors (e.g. Ai Fen and the late Li Wenliang) were punished for warning friends and colleagues.
- Starting on December 31, (https://citizenlab.ca/2020/03/censored-contagion-how-information-on-the-coronavirus-is-managed-on-chinese-social-media/) Chinese social media censored a wide variety of coronavirus-related keywords and keyword combinations, including (translated) "Wuhan seafood market", "SARS variation", "P4 virus lab", "Xi Jinping + epidemic spread", and "Communist Party + pneumonia + demonstrate + rule".
- In defiance of the CCP, (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/business/media/coronavirus-china-journalists.html) Chinese journalists have reported that officials concealed similarities to SARS, and that they delayed warnings of human-to-human transmission.
- Universities in China (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/11/china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest) have posted new policies specifically regarding research into the coronavirus' origins - for example, a requirement that papers on the source of the outbreak (but not papers on other medical topics) be approved by China's ministry of science and technology.
The whole debate about China lying about the number of deaths is morally bankrupt if you're going to say the president didn't fail in any major ways anyway. It implies that the US government had a correctly measured response to a virus which would kill 4000 people in China.
How can you trust a government that controls the narrative to such a degree?I'm not sure where you got the impression that anyone here trusts the chinese government.
The numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy.
there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).
I can't tell whether Hoover is claiming that
A. it's a conspiracy theory to say that China actually had ten million deaths; or
B. it's a conspiracy theory to say that the numbers from China are utterly untrustworthy.
If he's claiming A, then duh. If he's claiming B, then I directly addressed his claim.
- I've already mentioned several people who were disappeared or imprisoned in connection with the coronavirus. Their names bear repeating: Fang Bin and Chen Qiushi (journalists), Xu Zhangrun and Xu Zhiyong (academics), and Ren Zhiqiang (real estate tycoon).
- Doctors at the Central Hospital of Wuhan (https://www.straitstimes.com/asia/east-asia/wuhan-doctors-say-colleagues-died-in-vain-amid-official-cover-up) were banned from communicating critical information to the public. Some doctors (e.g. Ai Fen and the late Li Wenliang) were punished for warning friends and colleagues.
- Starting on December 31, (https://citizenlab.ca/2020/03/censored-contagion-how-information-on-the-coronavirus-is-managed-on-chinese-social-media/) Chinese social media censored a wide variety of coronavirus-related keywords and keyword combinations, including (translated) "Wuhan seafood market", "SARS variation", "P4 virus lab", "Xi Jinping + epidemic spread", and "Communist Party + pneumonia + demonstrate + rule".
- In defiance of the CCP, (https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/14/business/media/coronavirus-china-journalists.html) Chinese journalists have reported that officials concealed similarities to SARS, and that they delayed warnings of human-to-human transmission.
- Universities in China (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/11/china-clamping-down-on-coronavirus-research-deleted-pages-suggest) have posted new policies specifically regarding research into the coronavirus' origins - for example, a requirement that papers on the source of the outbreak (but not papers on other medical topics) be approved by China's ministry of science and technology.
How can you trust a government that controls the narrative to such a degree? The CCP has zero credibility. Remember that the same organization denied the existence of their concentration camps - and we still have no idea how many people are in those camps, though estimates range from hundreds of thousands, to a million, to three million. The CCP absolutely has the motivation and the power to hide their coronavirus death toll.
You could tell if you read his post!Quotethere is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies (I'm sure some of it is, but the US is currently like 10 times worse and is probably also undercounting).
there actually is a chance that the underreporting factor is not as large as you assume.
So, in my admittedly completely unprofessional estimation: Whether or not the chinese government is under-reporting does. Not. Matter.
And yet we heard about all that stuff and have proof it happened. Cause the Chinese government doesn't really care anywhere near as much about keeping secrets from the West as it does about keeping them from their own people. So when it comes to one of the biggest stories in the world, why would you expect the death count to be much higher than reported?
What have I assumed about the under-reporting factor?
I don't see how you can say that intentional under-reporting "does not matter". If we want useful data, then of course it matters. If we're playing the game of "how do the US' response and China's response compare" - which is not a game I'm interested in playing - then of course it matters.
OK, that's an earlier post than the one I was talking about. "The US is currently like 10 times worse" makes an assumption about the number of deaths in China. All of the data we have from China is utterly untrustworthy.
“You’re talking about 2.2 million deaths,” Trump said, referring to an Imperial College study that identified 2.2 million people as the high end of how many Americans could die if no measures were taken to slow the spread of coronavirus. “So if we can hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000, it’s a horrible number, maybe even less, but to 100,000, so we have between 100 [thousand] and 200,000, we altogether have done a very good job.”
Florida's governor, DeSantis, already drew criticism for leaving beaches open during spring break. Now, with Florida's daily death toll steadily increasing, beaches are starting to reopen. (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8229933/Beaches-Florida-start-reopening-EVENING.html)QuoteYou yell, "Barracuda!" and everybody says, "Huh? What?" You yell, "Shark!"...we've got a panic on our hands on the Fourth of July.
Did anyone else immediately think the same thing?
I'm just wondering who Trump will blame this time. Everyone on the left said don't do it. The WHO said don't do it. I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if China decides to chime in and say don't do it just so that they can say "We told you not to do it" when this turns into a ****ing disaster.
If this holds true across other locales, that means as more antibody testing comes online over the next few weeks, the death rate as a percentage will decline.
it will not, however, reduce the absolute number dead, nor the degree of culpability of the american government in those deaths
No, but what it will do, is when it turns out only 0.2% of cases are fatal, it will quickly reduce the amount of panic.
What have I assumed about the under-reporting factor?
That it is inflated by intentional efforts to cover things up.
Why do I need to explain your assumptions to you.
so there actually is a chance that the underreporting factor is not as large as you assume.
Because it, quite literally, does not matter at this point. It mattered back in January, now it doesn't; Now we have a lot of data from a multitude of sources, some more reliable than others.
TLDR; it doesn't matter what China's actual numbers are. The US has botched this problem either way and people are dying because of it.
But that's the thing: If China managed to hide tens of thousands of deaths, the US would still be matching that (assuming no under-reporting on the side of the US, which is a stretch considering its lack of testing). It's not so much about how utterly untrustworthy the Chinese data is, but how effective their cover-up would have to be in order to absolve the US government. Last time I checked...Quote“You’re talking about 2.2 million deaths,” Trump said, referring to an Imperial College study that identified 2.2 million people as the high end of how many Americans could die if no measures were taken to slow the spread of coronavirus. “So if we can hold that down, as we’re saying, to 100,000, it’s a horrible number, maybe even less, but to 100,000, so we have between 100 [thousand] and 200,000, we altogether have done a very good job.”
Do you think China is able to hide between a hundred thousand and 2.2 million deaths?
I am, in fact, making no assumptions about the size of the under-reporting factor. Have there been 5,000 deaths? 10,000? 50,000? I have no idea.
You must be joking. By saying that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are, you're doing exactly what jr2 and Goober were doing: minimizing the number of deaths, and the extent of the government's failures. jr2 and Goober were doing it with the U.S., and now you're doing it with China.
The U.S. government's response was horrible. That has nothing to do with China.
I have no idea what China's numbers are. That said, where concentration camps are concerned, China is able to hide between hundreds of thousands and 3 million prisoners.
TBH It's getting kinda hard to keep track of what the ongoing conversation in this thread is about. . .
I don't quite know how you think that's anywhere close to what our resident trumpets are trying to do: I don't think I am actually minimizing anything when I try to point out to you that this whole "They must be covering something up, because those official numbers are obvious nonsense" thing you're doing where the only supporting evidence you present are restrictions on social networks and scientific communication and research is, in my humble opinion, just another conspiracy theory that is rooted more in prejudice than in fact.
Do you realize that this thread and the very posts you are replying to are part of an ongoing conversation where people are disputing this statement? The whole notion of absolving the US government is the context in which the statements you are challenging have been made.
China is not able to hide this. The concentration camps are well documented. Their existence is widely known throughout the world (or atleast the people that care about following what China does).
GIVE ONE example of how the World Health Organization has been "criminally negligent" ONE.
the World Health Organization repeatedly amplified Chinese propaganda that the coronavirus outbreak was under control, including a January 14th tweet (https://twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152) which falsely claimed there was no human to human transmission of the disease, despite this having occurred in December.
Throughout January, the WHO praised China for its open and “speedy” response to COVID-19, even as Beijing authorities were silencing and disappearing doctors like Ai Fen who tried to warn the world that China was engaged in a cover-up.
The global health body also repeatedly told countries not to enforce border controls that could have stopped the spread of the virus, instead placing more importance on avoiding the “stigmatization” of Chinese people.
Also enplane why the USA is getting hit hardest by the virus if the W.H.O.'s "ineffectiveness" is to blame.
EDIT: Oh and:Math is math no matter who does it.They are literally just making up numbers at this point.
And without a tinge of Irony.
I didn't ignore them. I looked up the claims Cernovich made and found several more reputable sources that agreed with him.
You misunderstood the question, basically: If, as you say, it's all just simple math, why is the first source you quote the blog of someone who can be charitably described as a grifter?
The fact that the only people getting tested right now are the ones with permission, that are displaying symptoms.No, but what it will do, is when it turns out only 0.2% of cases are fatal, it will quickly reduce the amount of panic.
What are you even basing that on?
QuoteAlso enplane why the USA is getting hit hardest by the virus if the W.H.O.'s "ineffectiveness" is to blame.The USA is far from the hardest hit. Switzerland has six times the number of cases, per-capita.
You're seriously going to defend the claim that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? What if I said that it doesn't matter what NYC's numbers are? This is actually making me angry.
Honestly even aside from jr2/Goober's unbreakable partisan faith in Trump's infallibility, there is a deeper feeling in people in the West that the PRC simply cannot have managed the outbreak better overall than Western governments, and so the vastly lower death toll per capita must be entirely due to CCP lies.
You're seriously going to defend the claim that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? What if I said that it doesn't matter what NYC's numbers are? This is actually making me angry.
You're arguing at cross-purposes with pretty much everyone else at this point.
Nothing you have said addresses this. In fact you are literally doing what he complains about.
Are you agreeing that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? Because that's the most blatant minimizing and denialism that I've seen in the entire thread, which is exactly what irked me. Especially since everyone had already condemned that behavior.
The fact that the only people getting tested right now are the ones with permission, that are displaying symptoms.No, but what it will do, is when it turns out only 0.2% of cases are fatal, it will quickly reduce the amount of panic.
What are you even basing that on?
It's common sense.
Obviously I pulled the 0.2% out of thin air, but obviously if the only ones being tested have symptoms (i.e. have a much greater chance of actually being sick with coronavirus), then the % mortality is going to be WAY higher.
The CCP has zero credibility with regard to its reporting on the outbreak. You might as well pull a number out of a hat.
You're seriously going to defend the claim that it doesn't matter what China's numbers are? What if I said that it doesn't matter what NYC's numbers are? This is actually making me angry.
You cannot hide the answers to these questions no matter how much underreporting or fudging is going on. If it's not under control it grows exponentially to the point it can't be hidden. If it is but a lot of people are infected, you can't hide the strain on the medical infrastructure. Thus if it's under control, it's obvious. So no, China (or anyone else) fudging or misreporting the numbers doesn't matter. They're either engaging in the testing, tracing, isolation, and mitigation necessary to control the outbreak, or they're not, and the rest of the world can see the results either way.
I notice you left out precisely the part of Hoover's post that I was addressing.
The problem with relying on "reputable" sources is that people will lie to you about who is reputable and who isn't.
Per-Capita is not a useful measure when it comes to Epidemiology. population density and infection rate are far more important.
I think population density is especially meaningless as densely populated east Asian cities seem to handle this pandemic the best so far.
You do realize that viruses spread through close contact and proximity with other people right? You also understand that population density is a rough measure of how close people are to eachother right? That's what makes per capita meaningless too - you've already touched upon this yourself, but here it goes: Viruses have a "patient zero", an origin of the outbreak. They don't affect the population equally at all, becuase it all depends on whether or not people had contact with people who have the virus.
Don't agree, figures always have to be adjusted for population size or they lose almost all relevance. Comparing the whole of US to lets say, Italy, is quite meaningless.
Population density alone is only a very rough proxy to actual close contact between people, especially for wealthier cities with very well developed infrastructure.
Well done, you've basically said that China and India are automatically going to be 4 times better than the US and 20 times better than the UK even if they have the same number of cases and deaths.
You don't use public transport do you?
Well yes, I would say both China and India are significantly better off than the US (or certain US states) or UK as of now. Is that a controversial statement? I don't think so. Population size matters.
The problem with relying on "reputable" sources is that people will lie to you about who is reputable and who isn't.
My god, many parts of India and all the third world countries will be overwhelmed by this stuff, and we won't know it for months on end... until pictures of hospitals crammed with people suffering from "pneumonia related diseases" surface on the international news.
Amen.The problem with relying on "reputable" sources is that people will lie to you about who is reputable and who isn't.
Hyper-skepticism with the truth will always lead you to post-truth bizarro-world shenanigans. Avoid it at all costs.
Amen.
Just an hour ago my dad accused me of believing in fairy tales because I told him that the virus being created or coming from a chinese lab was bull**** when he brought up the argument, to be fair when when he told me I might have overreacted (bad science is a bit of a berserk button for me) but apparently he can't accept that there isn't some direct human responsibility and his first thought that I was being naive rather than relying on actual sources.
Ah. Well, that answered my thing too...which it's really stupid that now is when the 'virology lab' theory is making the rounds in the nethers of the internet, now that there's strong evidence against it. But I guess the nitwits only just now figured out there's a lab there, so they'll work with what they've got . :nono:
I have already sent him a few in Italian on my own after storming off, but thanks anyway. ;)Amen.
Just an hour ago my dad accused me of believing in fairy tales because I told him that the virus being created or coming from a chinese lab was bull**** when he brought up the argument, to be fair when when he told me I might have overreacted (bad science is a bit of a berserk button for me) but apparently he can't accept that there isn't some direct human responsibility and his first thought that I was being naive rather than relying on actual sources.
Scientists have taken a look and the theory is increasingly more ridiculous since research into the genome (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-not-human-made-lab-genetic-analysis-nature) has shown it basically came from nature. No need for the virus lab to do anything.
So now you have a source to give to your dad.
Pretty much.
Many of these people aren’t debating. They simply know they are right, whatever the logic or lack thereof, whatever the source, whatever the amount of scientific knowledge involved.
All hail the conspiracy theorists and the schizophrenia that follows.
Somebody get me my mace.
I have already sent him a few in Italian on my own after storming off, but thanks anyway. ;)Amen.
Just an hour ago my dad accused me of believing in fairy tales because I told him that the virus being created or coming from a chinese lab was bull**** when he brought up the argument, to be fair when when he told me I might have overreacted (bad science is a bit of a berserk button for me) but apparently he can't accept that there isn't some direct human responsibility and his first thought that I was being naive rather than relying on actual sources.
Scientists have taken a look and the theory is increasingly more ridiculous since research into the genome (https://www.sciencenews.org/article/coronavirus-covid-19-not-human-made-lab-genetic-analysis-nature) has shown it basically came from nature. No need for the virus lab to do anything.
So now you have a source to give to your dad.
The thing is I believe this stems deeper than misinformation: it’s a power play.
There is something deeply intoxicating about being the “only one who knows”, which might account for the uppity and conceited behaviour of these people. It places you in the place of a proverbial messiah.
That kind of brainwashing is strongly concomitant with the ones witnessed in sects or cults.
The government also said that companies which pay out dividends, buy back own shares or are registered in tax havens won’t be eligible for any of the aid programs, which now amount to a total of 400 billion kroner, when including loans and guarantees.
Unsurprising. We're led by a PM that played down the severity of Corona while boasting that he shook hands with patients in hospital. He caught the virus and wound up in the icu as a "precaution". Not even Trump managed that.
Fine, but admit that India has done 5 times better than your country did at preventing the virus so far then.
Patrick went on: "There are more important things than living, and that's saving this country for my children and my grandchildren and saving this country for all of us.
"I don't want to die, nobody wants to die but man we have got to take some risk and get back in the game and get this country back up and running," he told the Tucker Carlson Tonight host.
The other is realizing that companies are less important than people.
I am pretty sure your intention is not to advocate real-world violence against a very specific group of people. :doubt:
Because I'm pretty sure that would be against the site rules.
Take intent into consideration too: would you kill bill gates right now despite the medical foundation he set up?
The data is limited and, if anything, excess deaths are underestimated because not all deaths have been reported.
Researchers analyzed medical records of 368 male veterans hospitalized with confirmed coronavirus infection at Veterans Health Administration medical centers who died or were discharged by April 11.
About 28% who were given hydroxychloroquine plus usual care died, versus 11% of those getting routine care alone. About 22% of those getting the drug plus azithromycin died too, but the difference between that group and usual care was not considered large enough to rule out other factors that could have affected survival.
Take intent into consideration too: would you kill bill gates right now despite the medical foundation he set up?
I think in 50 years looking back at all this junk, the denial-ism about pandemics, the environment, the huge resurgence of nationalism, tribalism and intolerance, the referendum is going to be, "This was avoidable, but most people just didn't care."
As someone who studies history, we frequently mock people who lived in medieval times or prior ages as ignorant. And I think in some ways in the past 100 years, we've shown in large parts of the world we're still just as bad off or even worse.
I've genuinely lost almost all faith in representative democracy at this point. It only works if the voting populace is reasonably well-informed and has a vested interest in the betterment of society. And, well, ****ing look at us.
As someone who studies history, we frequently mock people who lived in medieval times or prior ages as ignorant. And I think in some ways in the past 100 years, we've shown in large parts of the world we're still just as bad off or even worse.
My employer has announced that they're reopening on the fourth.I’m sorry. That’s an awful choice to be faced with. Any chance of them letting you work remotely?
Profits over people.
I would make a point as teachers to notify all janitors in schools to double up on hygiene especially in lavatories and public rooms (lots of hydrogels and hankies if you can spare them). Schools are notorious Petri dishes.Exactly. I inevitably get several rounds of colds/sniffles during even a normal school year. Fortunately our state's governor shut things down for good a few weeks back, so even as conditions improve we'll stay safely home. Admittedly it really sucks for the seniors, though.
My parent is returning to duty as a teacher on the 11th of may here in France. I share the sentiment that this is stupid.
As a teacher, even IF it was safe to go back...what the flying **** would be the point of having the kids back all of 2 or 3 weeks before summer break starts?
My employer has announced that they're reopening on the fourth.I’m sorry. That’s an awful choice to be faced with. Any chance of them letting you work remotely?
Profits over people.
And it turns out the New York's mayor thinks that the best way of enforcing social distancing is to literally become a Soviet state in the middle of the US (https://nitter.net/NYCMayor/status/1251496378372632577)?
All of this conversation is skewed towards simplicity rather than truth. I'm pretty sure most people both think that 1, we should definitely quarantine while we have no means of protecting ourselves and keep vector barriers between workers, and 2, we can't stay home forever and ruin our economy to the point of destroying the entire society in a kind of a major depression the likes of which there is *no historical record*.
All of this conversation is skewed towards simplicity rather than truth. I'm pretty sure most people both think that 1, we should definitely quarantine while we have no means of protecting ourselves and keep vector barriers between workers, and 2, we can't stay home forever and ruin our economy to the point of destroying the entire society in a kind of a major depression the likes of which there is *no historical record*.
Food, shelter, power -- all these essentials are available, because obviously keeping their supply secure through the shutdown has been the first priority. There is no reason that extending the shutdown indefinitely would "destroy society", except that society has been captured by the capitalist economy of infinite growth and the capital class think they may as well destroy it if it's not making their stock portfolios go up.
The number of active COVID-19 cases in Tennessee is still rising. If I get called back to work on May 4th (as my employer is currently planning), then I'm going to quit. We either won't be past the peak or we'll be barely past the peak, and that's not the time to try to restart everything. The peak is the point of maximum risk of exposure.
I won't sacrifice my parents for the benefit of capital. I couldn't forgive myself if I got them infected in exchange for $16/hr.
I live in Tennessee, and I'm supposed to go back to dine-in food service at a restaurant May 1st
Everything is red vs blue, even public health and safety. Oh, and only one can be right.
And there are things more important than living... (https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/493879-texas-lt-governor-on-reopening-state-there-are-more-important-things) like proving the other side wrong.
And then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds, sounds interesting to me.
PSA: Do not inject disinfectant into your lungs. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtgVxGkrX1Y) Unfortunately I couldn't find a better channel than MSNBC, but Trump speaks for himself.QuoteAnd then I see the disinfectant, where it knocks it out in a minute, one minute, and is there a way we can do something like that by injection inside, or, or almost a cleaning. Because you see it gets in the lungs and it does a tremendous number on the lungs, so it’d be interesting to check that. So that you’re going to have to use medical doctors with, but it sounds, sounds interesting to me.
Impartial assassination wishes.
The obvious retort for you Goobers and jr2s out there is to claim that Trump was just making a joke, having a bit of a laugh, you know. The problem, as always with any attempts to exonerate Trump for saying incredibly stupid things, is that he wasn't. In that clip, Trumps bull****ting about using disinfectant is in the middle of some bull****ting about using UV light emitters in the body, an idea which I can't honestly claim to have an opinion on. In the same tone that he was talking about that maybe not entirely stupid idea, he was talking about disinfectant in the lung. If one of those suggestions is a joke and the other isn't, how the **** can you tell?
My head hurts.
In the middle of a pandemic is exactly the right time to fire an expert on vaccines because he won't back up the god-emperor's bull**** on unproven drugs (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52400721)
They're attributing it to interpretation malfeasance (or stupidity) by those darn liber'ls
https://www.breitbart.com/the-media/2020/04/23/fact-check-no-trump-didnt-propose-injecting-people-with-disinfectant/
When ABC News’ Jonathan Karl asked Dr. Bryant about whether the president had proposed injecting a person with “bleach and isopropyl alcohol” later, Trump clarified that “It wouldn’t be through injection,” and that he was talking about “cleaning, sterilization of an area,” and about applying the disinfectant to “a stationary object.”
Note: If you are not a stationary object and are, in fact, a person, please follow medical advice and do not inject disinfectant into your body.
The obvious retort for you Goobers and jr2s out there is to claim that Trump was just making a joke, having a bit of a laugh, you know. The problem, as always with any attempts to exonerate Trump for saying incredibly stupid things, is that he wasn't.
I personally won’t shed tears over people dying when following such ludicrous ideas. If you are dumb enough to ingest bleach in the first place, then consider your status in the human gene pool revoked. No regrets.
Joshua, as an example: if I told you to go stay underwater indefinitely and that said action would not impair your continued ability to breathe, would you?
There's also a brewing issue here where Trump thinks he can supersede State Governeror stay-at-home orders just because he's the president when the American Constitution explicitly says otherwise. So of course there are reports of Trump looking at using the justice department and suing states into cooperation.
As the coronavirus continues to kill thousands of people a day across Europe, one country stands out for keeping its death toll low.
Slovakia, a landlocked country of 5.5 million, closed its schools, shops and borders earlier than any other country after Italy. Meanwhile, politicians and TV anchors embraced face masks even before the government made them mandatory.
The measures bore fruit: Six weeks after the first reported infection, Slovakia has just 18 fatalities and is bottom of the European list of deaths per capita, according to data compiled by John Hopkins University as of April 26.
So, as it turns out, all those statements about covid-19 being about as dangerous as the flu? Actually true! If, that is, you shut down pretty much all public life, make sure that hospitals are well-stocked and staff well-trained.
On this, the first day of Tennessee's phased reopening, the state health department discovered ~1,000 previously unreported cases of COVID-19.
In Portugal, the big "scandal" now is that the first of May was celebrated with all kinds of hygienic measures we've all seen on the internet (distancing, masks, gloves, etc.), and the right wing was just groveling on their own misery, "why are these guys allowed to do this", etc.
They did the same pathetic outrage a week before, in the 25th April celebrations that mark 46 years since the Carnation Revolution freed Portugal from the fascistic dictatorship, surrounding the parliamentary yearly homage to the event.
IOW, we're doing fine. Masks have become available, if yet expensive (50 masks for 25 euros, the cheaper option in a particular supermarket, most are around 1 € per mask), which means in 3 days the whole country is obligated to wear masks by law in public areas, all the while when the economy is about to open up. We're doing incredibly in terms of tests, which surprised the heck out of me. So I'm genuinely positive about my own country's situation, albeit things can change in a heartbeat.
We'll see.
I'm kind of torn on allowing these kinds of social gatherings to take place. The last massive social gatherings (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-womens-day-spain/thousands-march-in-spain-on-womens-day-despite-coronavirus-fears-idUSKBN20V0ZJ) in our little corner of the globe had somewhat disastrous consequences.
So, uh, how is everybody doing? Are you still sheltering where you are? Are things getting back to sort-of normal yet?
Still attempting to teach from home, whatever "teaching" even means at this point. At least there are just a few weeks left. Going out to the supermarket remains an absolute ****-show. I feel like the world's worst cowboy every time I step out in public with a bandana tied around my face.
Passive masks such as surgical grade masks are only effective in preventing your spittle from infecting others, but sadly will be inadequate at filtering outside contaminants. So, if the fact of wearing a mask isn’t followed unanimously, then it’s pretty much useless, which is one of the reasons why there was so much talk about rerouting masks to health authorities in France, despite public uproar.
Any mask which doesn't cover all the soft tissue membranes is ineffective. So full face respirators or filtered respirator and swimming goggles is the only way you'll keep it out of a head based entry as everyone seems to forget the eyes.. . 😂
All an unfiltered cloth mask (like all these homemade ones with lovely patterns I'm seeing flood social media) does, is after a few minutes of normal breathing, it creates a humid panel in front of your mouth and nose which makes an excellent dragnet for everything to adhere to.
If it's not airtight, it's not right. Sure using a pan to bail water from a sinking rowboat is better than nothing. But a sieve is next to useless.
The science may not be settled if you say, but I can stick to my opinion and let you stick to yours without conflict %uD83D%uDC4D
My point here is that by failing to do so, the masks utility is being wasted, and it is a precious resource.
President Donald Trump’s obsession with the anti-malarial drug hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for the coronavirus may have started in part because of a self-described philosopher in China who is a fan of white nationalists, tweets anti-Semitic rhetoric and calls chloroquine “a Nazi drug that is here to teach a lesson to leftists about bias.”
Masks are compulsory now, but I still see many people wearing them without covering the nose, or removing them to chat better :wtf:
A reminder to everyone here. Face masks other than N95s DO NOT protect you from other people’s germs. They protect other people from your germs. Wear your ****ing mask. Protect the people around you.Yeah what he said.
And I bet you money that when the case numbers skyrocket again because it IS too early to go back to work, Trump will blame the protesters for gathering together and spreading the virus.
You know what's truly bizarre? China shut down the entire country when they had around 2000 cases. They ended up with 80,000 cases. Meanwhile, the US is opening up while having 20,000 cases a day! So 1/4 of the total number of cases China reported.
And even if you don't believe the numbers from China, look at the countries that did beat the virus (so far). South Korea did more testing than nearly anywhere and never got remotely close to 20k a day! They never got close to 20k TOTAL!
It just amazes me that people are so desperate to throw away their future for such a short term gain. Even though we know everyone will be back in lockdown soon as a result of this nonsense.
Note: Provisional death counts are based on death certificate data received and coded by the National Center for Health Statistics as of June 24, 2020. Death counts are delayed and may differ from other published sources (see Technical Notes). Counts will be updated every Wednesday by 5pm. Additional information will be added to this site as available.
Provisional counts of deaths are underestimated relative to final counts. This is due to the many steps involved in reporting death certificate data. When a death occurs, a certifier (e.g. physician, medical examiner or coroner) will complete the death certificate with the underlying cause of death and any contributing causes of death. In some cases, laboratory tests or autopsy results may be required to determine the cause of death. Completed death certificate are sent to the state vital records office and then to NCHS for cause of death coding. At NCHS, about 80% of deaths are automatically processed and coded within seconds, but 20% of deaths need to manually coded, or coded by a person. Deaths involving certain conditions such as influenza and pneumonia are more likely to require manual coding than other causes of death. Furthermore, all deaths with COVID-19 are manually coded. Death certificates are typically manually coded within 7 days of receipt, although the coding delay can grow if there is a large increase in the number of deaths. As a result, underestimation of the number of deaths may be greater for certain causes of death than others.
Previous analyses of provisional data completeness from 2015 suggested that mortality data is approximately 27% complete within 2 weeks, 54% complete within 4 weeks, and at least 75% complete within 8 weeks of when the death occurred (8). Pneumonia deaths are 26% complete within 2 weeks, 52% complete within 4 weeks, and 72% complete within 8 weeks (unpublished). Data timeliness has improved in recent years, and current timeliness is likely higher than published rates.
Are we reaching herd-immunity levels and just not aware of it yet?
(EDIT: Strange too how the media's focus has shifted from death rates to infections rates - since death rates at this point are no longer a sensational talking point).
I’m so f*cking pissed at Trump and all his enablers for just giving up on trying to save lives. There will be a reckoning in November.
EDIT: For those that haven't seen it. The White house has ordered hospitals to send Covid related data directly to them and specifically not to the CDC. (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/14/politics/trump-administration-coronavirus-hospital-data-cdc/index.html?utm_term=link&utm_source=twCNN&utm_content=2020-07-15T18%3A20%3A04&utm_medium=social)
I've been saying for years that it's actually quite astonishing how similar the US and China are in the end.
EDIT: For those that haven't seen it. The White house has ordered hospitals to send Covid related data directly to them and specifically not to the CDC. (https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/14/politics/trump-administration-coronavirus-hospital-data-cdc/index.html?utm_term=link&utm_source=twCNN&utm_content=2020-07-15T18%3A20%3A04&utm_medium=social)
Remember all the complaints that China was covering up their true figures? Remember when I said thisI've been saying for years that it's actually quite astonishing how similar the US and China are in the end.
There was plenty of warning even before Italy. South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc all had access to the same data the West did and their response was drastically different.
I'm yet to see a single iota of evidence that China covered up things on a scale that would have made the "rest of the world" do anything drastically different.
Let me ask you a question, what death toll and number of cases do you honestly think would have made Italy do something different?
I'm yet to see a single iota of evidence that China covered up things on a scale that would have made the "rest of the world" do anything drastically different.
There isn't any hard evidence that China is harvesting organs, either, and people have been digging for years.
The chinese government, again provably, did do the right things. They could probably have done those things sooner, just as every country in the world will always have to question how things would have worked out if they had started their shutdown a week or two weeks earlier.
There isn't any hard evidence that China is harvesting organs, either, and people have been digging for years.
Let me ask you a question, what death toll and number of cases do you honestly think would have made Italy do something different?
I guess we'll never know, will we?
There was plenty of warning even before Italy. South Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc all had access to the same data the West did and their response was drastically different. And the effects of the virus on those countries was also drastically different.
My workplace has had its first confirmed COVID case.
There isn't any hard evidence that China is harvesting organs, either, and people have been digging for years.
Wha....?
what even is this point you're trying to make?
It's also dumb to point to South Korea, etc. as proof that there was sufficient warning. No matter what China did, some countries were going to weather the outbreak better than others. Of course South Korea, Taiwan, New Zealand, and other countries deserve praise for their responses. But Fauci and other health experts don't deserve blame for underestimating the threat. Unfortunately, the science only became clear around the time of Italy's outbreak.That is manifestly the wrong lesson to take from all this. If the science was so unclear, why did South Korea slam shut in such an economically devastating way? They only did this because they listened to their scientific experts when they told them they were under existential threat. They listened.
My workplace has had its first confirmed COVID case.
Congratulations! :eek:
I'm sorry to hear that, what are they doing? Are they going to make sure everybody gets tested, or send everybody home for two weeks? Or something else? Or nothing?
The point of bringing up organ harvesting, and the fact that it's unproven despite years of investigation, is that asking for "evidence" against China is just dumb. As karajorma said, they're going to cover things up (and they're exceptionally good at it); however bad you think they are, they're probably worse.
It's also dumb to point to South Korea, etc. as proof that there was sufficient warning. No matter what China did, some countries were going to weather the outbreak better than others. Of course South Korea, Taiwan, New Zealand, and other countries deserve praise for their responses. But Fauci and other health experts don't deserve blame for underestimating the threat.
Unfortunately, the science only became clear around the time of Italy's outbreak.
This is clearly flying to nowhere. Ever since Goober and jr2 left the thread (which was admittedly a good thing), every criticism of the U.S. has gone unchallenged, and every criticism of China has generated controversy.
I'll stick to criticizing the U.S. from now on, which I quite enjoy anyway.
The point of bringing up organ harvesting, and the fact that it's unproven despite years of investigation, is that asking for "evidence" against China is just dumb. As karajorma said, they're going to cover things up (and they're exceptionally good at it); however bad you think they are, they're probably worse.
I'm yet to see a single iota of evidence that China covered up things on a scale that would have made the "rest of the world" do anything drastically different.
There isn't any hard evidence that China is harvesting organs, either, and people have been digging for years.
We can say, with near absolute certainty, that even if the chinese government had the full, accurate profile of COVID 19 in early December and even if they had sounded the alarm at that point, that this whole pandemic would have played out pretty much as it did. Why? Because the only reason why we in the west started to take it seriously was because Italy showed us what could happen if it were to go wrong.
After initial denials and cover-ups, China successfully contained the COVID-19 outbreak—but not before it had exported many cases to the rest of the world. Today, despite the falsehoods it initially passed on, which played a critical role in delaying global response, it’s trying to leverage its reputed success story into a stronger position on international health bodies.
Most critically, Beijing succeeded from the start in steering the World Health Organization (WHO), which both receives funding from China and is dependent on the regime of the Communist Party on many levels. Its international experts didn’t get access to the country until Director-General Tedros Adhanom visited President Xi Jinping at the end of January. Before then, WHO was uncritically repeating information from the Chinese authorities, ignoring warnings from Taiwanese doctors — unrepresented in WHO, which is a United Nations body—and reluctant to declare a “public health emergency of international concern,” denying after a meeting Jan. 22 that there was any need to do so.
After the Beijing visit, though, WHO said in a statement that it appreciated “especially the commitment from top leadership, and the transparency they have demonstrated.” Only after the meeting did it declared, on Jan. 30, a public health emergency of international concern. And after China reported only a few new cases each day, WHO declared the coronavirus a pandemic March 11 — even though it had spread globally weeks before.
[...] willfull blindness that caused Italy's health sector to crash around that date.
WHO heavily influenced by China.
So why was China not following it's supposed own advice by locking down Wuhan?
Italy's R0 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number) value is now officially above 1, again. This is what you get when people misbehave even though the regulations were (and are) good enough to reduce the infection rate to a minimum.Actually, new daily cases are so low that Rt increasing above 1 is likely to be caused by statistical fluctuations... for now :nervous:
For foreigners, it is also worth noting that, unlike the rest of the country, Lombardy has quasi-private healthcare (unsurprisingly, the governor who made this reform was found to be heavily involved in bribery scandals). Many hospitals are privately-managed, and focus more on specialist services than general medicine, and have comparatively few ITUs.[...] willfull blindness that caused Italy's health sector to crash around that date.
I do understand that the details on how coronavirus spread here may be difficult to get for a foreigner, because they require some basic knowledge of the country itself, but that one line seems to imply that the entire nation's healthcare system has been overwhelmed by Covid-19 at various stages. It wasn't. There are twenty regions in this country, and only one (maybe two, depending on criteria) of them got hit very, very hard. These regions are densely populated but they represent at best one fifth of the entire country in terms of population. And there have been areas within these regions that experienced Covid-19 in a much less catastrophic way.
Other regions, including my own, sent their own doctors to help and I don't recall any articles saying that ICUs were overwhelmed from Emilia Romagna southwards. There is a raging debate about very expensive makeshift hospitals, built and set up very quickly, that served no real purpose at all. We even hosted two patients from other regions because we had extra space in our own hospitals. An Air Force C-130 transferred these extra patients here (I still have the videos in my phone, recorded right from the tarmac).
Well, we now have the benefit of hindsight, but in many countries it was hard to argue for hard lockdowns at that initial time
But before that there were attempts at coverup and downplaying, even in Wuhan (remember the ophtalmologist who was admonished by police for making comments about new SARS-like outbreak?).
If other governments didn't sit up, take notice and say "We need to make sure this thing doesn't spread in our country cause China seem to be ****-scared of it!" then they are incompetent. If they didn't say "You know something, China does have a track record of covering-up stuff. Maybe we should prepare for the worst just in case" they are gullible idiots. People always seem to ignore that point and argue that somehow the leaders of their country were unprepared for China to lie to them. I can't express how stupid that argument truly is.
Edit: and in my point of view people like Fauci, trump and others who underestimated the virus - should be arrested and judged for homicide. Thats MY OPINION!
I wonder why so many countries opted for the lockdowns, while others (Sweden, South Korea, etc.) didn't. It was a traumatism for many people, especially the elderly. I hope we won't have to face those measures once again.Well, we now have the benefit of hindsight, but in many countries it was hard to argue for hard lockdowns at that initial time
South Korea didn't have major lockdowns. Lockdowns are one possible option, they aren't the only thing you can do. The failure in other countries was that they didn't do ANY of them.
I wonder why so many countries opted for the lockdowns, while others (Sweden, South Korea, etc.) didn't. It was a traumatism for many people, especially the elderly. I hope we won't have to face those measures once again.
I don't think it's fair to colour all Americans with the same brush for obvious reasons. Saying that though, Trump is one of the most stereotypically American presidents ever - he's loud, obnoxious, stupid, and fat.
Is it just me or is it a coincidence that the US and UK have both had the worst response to this thing globally and are both led by populist narcissists?
*snip*
*snip*
You even manage to make an anecdote about being insufferable, into an insufferable self-aggrandising episode...
... and people call me unlikable...
You, a normie: Let's not mix FreeSpace and thousands of people dying
Me, an intellectual, making a big difference in the world:
I don't claim to be an intellectual or whatever, but there's 1 thing I've learned for sure: It doesn't matter how much thought, abstraction and what else you put into your awnser - if the awnser is just rude... it's just rude.
Are you and your family ok
Are you and your family ok
Are you and your family ok
Fauci didn't underestimate the virus. Quit your bull****.
If there was a cover-up then the question becomes what would the real situation have needed to be like so that the rest of the world would have changed their response. And I honestly don't believe the Western world would have done anything different unless China had reported casualties in the hundreds of thousands, not just thousands like they did. Why? Cause even if there was a cover-up what they did tell us was ****ing terrifying. China shut down an entire city because they claimed 500 people had a virus. They shut down the entire country during the largest festival of the year for 2000 cases.
But this is not a major threat to the people of the United States and this is not something that the citizens of the United States right now should be worried about.
The American people should not be worried or frightened by this. It’s a very, very low risk to the United States, but it’s something we, as public health officials, need to take very seriously.
But the one thing historically people need to realize, that even if there is some asymptomatic transmission, in all the history of respiratory-borne illnesses of any type, asymptomatic transmission has never been the driver of outbreaks. The driver of outbreaks is always a symptomatic person, even if there's a rare asymptomatic person that might transmit, an epidemic is not driven by asymptomatic carriers.
One, they should realize at this point, it is a low risk. And two, that risk can change, so pay attention to what’s going on... So the question is, should we do anything different from what we’re already doing? No. Should we all be wearing a mask? Absolutely not.
So although we don't want people to be worried now, I think we need to realize that this could change. So right now, don't worry about it. Be more concerned about influenza, which is going into a second peak for the season, than coronavirus.
So, anecdotally, it’s clear that there are people who would judge to be asymptomatic when questioned, who very likely transmitted infection during the period of time that they were in the asymptomatic state. The question is, is that a predominant modality of transmission, what we call a driver of an outbreak, or is it one that’s minor? From talking to people who are over there now, and we’re getting more and more information as papers come in to look at to review, it looks like A, it does occur, but B, it is not something that is the predominant way that it’s transmitted.
Right now, at this moment, there’s no need to change anything that you’re doing on a day by day basis. Right now the risk is still low, but this could change. I’ve said that many times even on this program. You’ve got to watch out because although the risk is low now, you don’t need to change anything you’re doing.
Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks... There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask.
I'd suggest that Fauci didn't underestimate the virus so much as he completely underestimated just how much of a goddamn moron Trump is.
If you do move it, make a non-political Coronavirus thread, and move all the non-political posts into it please.
Easily the scariest thing about the Coronavirus is that @realDonaldTrump and his administration have made it political. Now it's about saving Trump instead of saving lives.
I don't claim to be an intellectual or whatever, but there's 1 thing I've learned for sure: It doesn't matter how much thought, abstraction and what else you put into your awnser - if the awnser is just rude... it's just rude.
Are you and your family ok
Does it not strike anyone else as bat-**** insane that we have to move a thread about a deadly viral pandemic into the Politics category? This should not be political.Yeah, that's kinda sad.
Relevant thing I posted to Twitter on Feb 28. (https://twitter.com/MjnMixael/status/1233399848872955905?s=20)QuoteEasily the scariest thing about the Coronavirus is that @realDonaldTrump and his administration have made it political. Now it's about saving Trump instead of saving lives.
Dude, do not ****ing lump Fauci in with Trump. He's literally the sole voice of reason and science right now.
I'd suggest that Fauci didn't underestimate the virus so much as he completely underestimated just how much of a goddamn moron Trump is.
THIS.
Everything Fauci said was scientifically correct. We know it's correct because it was correct in South Korea. It was correct in Taiwan. It was correct in Vietnam. Even the stuff about masks. We STILL don't know if that helped or not.
The thing that brings me hope is the daily polls between Biden and Trump that place the former at 10, 15 points ahead of Orange Man.
Out of everything that the US is doing, I don't really understand opening up public schools. Not only they're the most prevalent "petri dishes" in the society, but also don't they just not profit anyone?
Out of everything that the US is doing, I don't really understand opening up public schools. Not only they're the most prevalent "petri dishes" in the society, but also don't they just not profit anyone?
Read my wall of quotes again and tell me that Fauci didn't underestimate the virus.
But this is not a major threat to the people of Taiwan and this is not something that the citizens of Taiwan right now should be worried about.
The Vietnamese people should not be worried or frightened by this. It%u2019s a very, very low risk to Vietnam, but it%u2019s something we, as public health officials, need to take very seriously.
But the one thing historically people need to realize, that even if there is some asymptomatic transmission, in all the history of respiratory-borne illnesses of any type, asymptomatic transmission has never been the driver of outbreaks. The driver of outbreaks is always a symptomatic person, even if there's a rare asymptomatic person that might transmit, an epidemic is not driven by asymptomatic carriers.
One, they should realize at this point, it is a low risk. And two, that risk can change, so pay attention to what%u2019s going on... So the question is, should we do anything different from what we%u2019re already doing? No. Should we all be wearing a mask? Absolutely not.
So although we don't want people to be worried now, I think we need to realize that this could change. So right now, don't worry about it. Be more concerned about influenza, which is going into a second peak for the season, than coronavirus.
So, anecdotally, it%u2019s clear that there are people who would judge to be asymptomatic when questioned, who very likely transmitted infection during the period of time that they were in the asymptomatic state. The question is, is that a predominant modality of transmission, what we call a driver of an outbreak, or is it one that%u2019s minor? From talking to people who are over there now, and we%u2019re getting more and more information as papers come in to look at to review, it looks like A, it does occur, but B, it is not something that is the predominant way that it%u2019s transmitted.
Why didn't America's top infectious disease expert foresee the worst global crisis since WWII? Because he was simply working with the data available to him at the time. He couldn't know how contagious the virus was, or how much it was driven by asymptomatic carriers, or how serious a threat it posed, until it started hitting countries that actually shared their data.
He didn't underestimate the virus. What he underestimated is how dumb Trump would be about the virus.
QuoteBut this is not a major threat to the people of Taiwan and this is not something that the citizens of Taiwan right now should be worried about.QuoteThe Vietnamese people should not be worried or frightened by this. It%u2019s a very, very low risk to Vietnam, but it%u2019s something we, as public health officials, need to take very seriously.
Are those statements suddenly untrue when the country they were about is changed? So why should they be untrue about America?
QuoteWhy didn't America's top infectious disease expert foresee the worst global crisis since WWII? Because he was simply working with the data available to him at the time. He couldn't know how contagious the virus was, or how much it was driven by asymptomatic carriers, or how serious a threat it posed, until it started hitting countries that actually shared their data.
And yet the top infection disease experts in Taiwan and Vietnam DID foresee it. Are you claiming that they are clairvoyant? And you're still ignoring the point I made earlier. China shut down the entire country for 2000 cases. That's zombie plague level infectious! If you need more data than that, you're an idiot.
Fauci is not an idiot. Fauci works with someone who absolutely is and knew that if he said anything the idiot didn't like he would be replaced by an idiot. It's pretty clear that Fauci was taking the disease seriously right from the start. But he had to say it in a way that the idiot wouldn't pick up on it.
EDIT: Let me put things more simply. Italy didn't change the scientific evidence available. We already had those warnings. Italy changed the public perception from "This could never happen here" to "Oh ****! This could happen here!" You've just got things the wrong way round and assumed that because the public perception changed at that time, the perception of the scientists also must have changed. The very quotes you gave show that is nonsense. Fauci stated time after time that things could very easily change.
To be fair, outside of Brazil and possibly the UK, none of these countries have been nearly as dumb as the US for nearly as long.He didn't underestimate the virus. What he underestimated is how dumb Trump would be about the virus.
And how dumb the UK, Ireland, Italy, Spain, France, Sweden, Belgium, Brazil, Mexico, and many other countries would be, apparently.
But only a few of them have been as smart as Germany or Norway, which is very important.
And how dumb the UK, Ireland, Italy, Spain, France, Sweden, Belgium, Brazil, Mexico, and many other countries would be, apparently.
Why are you doctoring Fauci's statements?
In hindsight, the virus was not a "very, very low risk" to any country in the world; places like Taiwan and Vietnam weathered the storm precisely because they took strong and early measures.
America's top infectious disease expert seriously underestimated the risk
There are many possible explanations for Taiwan's and Vietnam's strong and early measures, not including "clairvoyance". Perhaps they were simply paranoid (rightly so, as it turned out); perhaps they were hypersensitive to danger from China (being under constant threat and/or being next door); perhaps they were burned once by SARS; perhaps they were advised by people more competent and informed than Fauci.
Germany wasn't "smart". Nothing my government did was "smart" in the sense of being innovative or unprecedented; everything that the RKI was recommending was textbook "This is how you fight a pandemic" stuff.It was at least smart in the sense that following proven procedures and listening to experts can help you through such a situation. You don't always have to reinvent the wheel, sometimes being smart just means using the right tools as described in the textbook. As we can all unfortunately witness right now, that's not the case everywhere...
Germany wasn't "smart". Nothing my government did was "smart" in the sense of being innovative or unprecedented;
QuoteThere are many possible explanations for Taiwan's and Vietnam's strong and early measures, not including "clairvoyance". Perhaps they were simply paranoid (rightly so, as it turned out); perhaps they were hypersensitive to danger from China (being under constant threat and/or being next door); perhaps they were burned once by SARS; perhaps they were advised by people more competent and informed than Fauci.
So you are now claiming that it was possible to make sensible decisions about coronavirus based on the science in January and February when Taiwan and Vietnam did it? Cause I take exception to your argument that Taiwan and Vietnam were right for the wrong reasons. That's the kind of dumb racist thinking that got the West into this mess in the first place.
Yep. So Taiwan did better than the West with less information than America had. Vietnam did better with the same information from the WHO and fewer resources. America on the other hand was one of the first countries to be affected by Swine Flu. So it's not like outbreaks are unknown there. Why weren't they better prepared?
Or, you know.
The reason could be that Trump is an imbecile and a narcissistic sociopath and the Republicans are spineless fascist enablers.
Immanuel, a pediatrician and a religious minister, has a history of making bizarre claims about medical topics and other issues. She has often claimed that gynecological problems like cysts and endometriosis are in fact caused by people having sex in their dreams with demons and witches.
She alleges alien DNA is currently used in medical treatments, and that scientists are cooking up a vaccine to prevent people from being religious. And, despite appearing in Washington, D.C. to lobby Congress on Monday, she has said that the government is run in part not by humans but by “reptilians” and other aliens.
So I guess this is what it looks like when a government is trying to falsify COVID data....
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ed5x6pwVoAA83mg?format=jpg&name=large)
So, I work at a small hotel in a place that sees a lot of tourists during summer, it's a family business and we basically live on the workplace at least since my grandfather.
In theory president of the region Sicily Musumeci has imposed a strict guideline to any tourist that comes from outside the region to register online so they can be tracked and hotels, hostels, B&Bs, etc. are supposed to enforce the thing by telling their guests to register if they haven't already.
It turns out that at least one hotel in Salina and one in Palermo don't give a flying **** about it and had to explain to a few guests that I didn't make the thing up on the spot (but then I shouldn't be surprised since there are a lot of places that don't ask for ID even though it's illegal not to register paying guests with the police).
The only time I was able to get out and actually buy groceries rather than ask someone else in the family I had an asshole with his facemask hanging from his neck basically coming to arm distance when there were room to stay about 10 meters apart on the street I was in, most people didn't wear a mask at all and a few seemed almost to actively try to counter my attempt to respect social distancing.
Even one of the few friends I have fell to the "masks are for sheep" bull****.
****ing hell, we are all gonna die are we?
So, I work at a small hotel in a place that sees a lot of tourists during summer, it's a family business and we basically live on the workplace at least since my grandfather.
In theory president of the region Sicily Musumeci has imposed a strict guideline to any tourist that comes from outside the region to register online so they can be tracked and hotels, hostels, B&Bs, etc. are supposed to enforce the thing by telling their guests to register if they haven't already.
It turns out that at least one hotel in Salina and one in Palermo don't give a flying **** about it and had to explain to a few guests that I didn't make the thing up on the spot (but then I shouldn't be surprised since there are a lot of places that don't ask for ID even though it's illegal not to register paying guests with the police).
The only time I was able to get out and actually buy groceries rather than ask someone else in the family I had an asshole with his facemask hanging from his neck basically coming to arm distance when there were room to stay about 10 meters apart on the street I was in, most people didn't wear a mask at all and a few seemed almost to actively try to counter my attempt to respect social distancing.
Even one of the few friends I have fell to the "masks are for sheep" bull****.
****ing hell, we are all gonna die are we?
That combines well (euphemism) with Andrea Bocelli's recent claims. He felt humiliated because, apparently, his mansion was not big enough to ensure high degrees of comfort during the toughest part of our lockdown: https://www.euronews.com/2020/07/28/covid-19-andrea-bocelli-felt-humiliated-and-offended-by-italy-s-lockdown
Seriously, it was a shame to see such an influential artist join the nomask-fascist-racist armada. People are making jokes about him not getting the chance to actually see what's been happening nationwide in the past few months (he's blind, you now). What's wrong with this guy? He's one of the best singers in the entire country.
In less-important-but-still-typical news, the entire MLB season could be scuttled because Florida Team were idiots. Color me shocked.
Okay, so, this is a bit interesting and you will be able to see the punchline coming from a mile away.
Just like in other countries, Germany too has a sizable minority of people who see mask-wearing and social distancing as violations of their rights. They even had a big public demonstration recently (which was subsequently closed because.... the 20.000 people present violated mask-wearing and social distancing statutes, what a surprise).
The news magazine Spiegel ran a poll recently (through a polling company, to reduce biases) asking about attitudes towards these demonstrations. A large majority (about 66%) outright said that they can't understand these attitudes, a further 12 % were more ambivalent but strongly trending towards not understanding, and about 26% said they had various degrees of understanding (which, of course, is different to agreeing with the views these demonstrators had, but nonetheless).
Where it gets interesting is when party preference is taken into account. The big parties, CDU, SPD and Greens, are all firmly (read: 90+%) on board with these restrictions. The more radically left Linke is also firmly on board, but about a fifth are skeptical; our libertarians are about 60/35 on the whole thing and our resident "we are not Nazis, we swear, we just don't like immigrants and jews very much" idiots from the AfD are...... strongly on the side of the protesting idiots.
What a twiiiist
Meat packing plant in the netherlands had 25% of their workers sick from covid
was detected late becauseeeeee the bosses forced their employees to lie to health inspectors.
Anyway I'm looking at becoming a vegetarian now.
Fourth case confirmed at work.
`Meat packing plant in the netherlands had 25% of their workers sick from covid
was detected late becauseeeeee the bosses forced their employees to lie to health inspectors.
Anyway I'm looking at becoming a vegetarian now.
Jeebus, Mariana and Jehoshaphat. The world needs more workers' unions.
Well... my brother who works for the essential service of a car wash just tested positive for Covid. But it's definitely a Democratic Hoax.
(But car washes are essential services? Who knew? :wtf: )
People in lockdown need to be able to play games. And it's not like a system by which you can buy and download games over the internet has existed for the last 10 years or so.
New daily cases in Italy have been slowly but steadily increasing for days, and today we had 845 new daily cases, the highest increment since 16th May.
Now I think it can be certainly said that we are in the 2nd wave too :(
Moreover, the number of people wearing masks is steadily decreasing. I have a bad feeling about this :(
Imschocked.gif
https://dangoodspeed.com/covid/total-cases-since-juneThat's interesting. So we may get to see who was right in the long run, the Democrat view leaning more towards prioritising saving more lives from the virus, or the Republican view leaning more towards thinking that it will do more harm in the long run if you don't open up the economy.
So the US case rate has become extremely partisan
The economy of South Korea is forecast to grow 1.9%, which is down from 2.1%.
https://dangoodspeed.com/covid/total-cases-since-june
So the US case rate has become extremely partisan
It is ****ing insane that an issue of global health is political.. but here we are.
Thirded. I am sick to death of tolerating the politicization and distortion of easily understood facts, as if the virus gives a tinker’s damn what your political alignment is.It is ****ing insane that an issue of global health is political.. but here we are.
seconded...
Easily the scariest thing about the Coronavirus is that @realDonaldTrump and his administration have made it political. Now it's about saving Trump instead of saving lives.
I mean, at this stage coronavirus is just an ever-present threat to virtually everyone around the globe. The only thing to talk about is how different governments choose to combat it, it's political in its very nature. I just wish the US's response wasn't one of denial, bickering and mass death.To be fair those are our three chief exports at this point.
There are investigations though regarding the covid crisis, dealing with the current health minister, the former one, and some logistics element ( it turns out our warehouses were empty of masks and PPE which should have been stocked to serve a situation like this one).
SECOND WAVE BABY
When I asked for a ban back in primordial whenever-the-**** Axem quipped that I should be back in October, just in time for Wave 2. ITS ALL HAPPENING AGAIN
THIRD WAVE BABY
I assume that infected anti-maskers do their best Braveheart impression as they die.
FRREEEEEEDOOOOOOOM
This year was, in the US at least and keeping in mind that the year ain't over yet, a bad one for police officers.
Can you guess what the leading cause of death for police officers on active duty was this year? Like, in a "more than all other causes of death combined" sort of way?
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ek3dj2bW0AE4qKv?format=png&name=small)
Yep, you guessed it. The totally not deadly, really not that much of an issue, "it's just the flu, stop panicking" COVID-19.
Get out while you can! It's sunny and COVID-free(ish) here!
I think that's a "would if we could" sort of situation, yea?yeah look that was maybe a little tone-deaf, my bad
We are going all the way to the top! Complete global saturation! Kill baby kill!
Only saw a few nose-out mask wearers (fools!)
Only saw a few nose-out mask wearers (fools!)
Only saw a few nose-out mask wearers (fools!)
Unfortunately, I'm doing that a lot. Why? Simple. When physically active (for example, at work but not only there) I tend to breathe a lot. Yes, I know that is a fantastic revelation. And I also tend to overheat a lot. Mix in the breathing obstruction and I have the choice between keeping my nose out of the mask, effectively slowly suffocating myself or using my hands to pull the mask away from my face once in a while to grab some cool and fresh air. So yeah, I think I'm doing the right thing here (especially that I try to cover my whole face whenever possible).
Hell, whenever I need a drink of water at work, I’ll make sure to have a long straw in my cup so that I can drink with the straw between my mask and my face and never have to expose my mouth. It’s a damn sight better than trying to drink with my mask down.You just reminded me of this gem.
Hell, whenever I need a drink of water at work, I’ll make sure to have a long straw in my cup so that I can drink with the straw between my mask and my face and never have to expose my mouth. It’s a damn sight better than trying to drink with my mask down.You just reminded me of this gem.
(please don't do this people)
It’s like being on safari and seeing the animals in their natural habitat!Hell, whenever I need a drink of water at work, I’ll make sure to have a long straw in my cup so that I can drink with the straw between my mask and my face and never have to expose my mouth. It’s a damn sight better than trying to drink with my mask down.You just reminded me of this gem.
(please don't do this people)
I thought it was going to be a case of forgetting they had them on, or constantly pulling them up and down to eat. Nah, just cut holes in the things! :rolleyes:
Did anyone get one of those weird nasal tests, and if so, how horrible was it?Got one done a few months ago. Honestly, not that bad dawg. The actual "is that the back of my throat?!" part lasted milliseconds. Definitely nothing to go out of your way to avoid.
The active case count has entered double digits at work. Management is sufficiently worried about community spread to hose the restrooms down with bleach, but not sufficiently worried to consider another shutdown.
What's a few human lives in service of the profit margins?
The active case count has entered double digits at work. Management is sufficiently worried about community spread to hose the restrooms down with bleach, but not sufficiently worried to consider another shutdown.
What's a few human lives in service of the profit margins?
Surely it's more profitable to have an office full of sick people or paying weeks-worth of sick time than to let people work from home or something? /s
I started to rewatch deep space nine as a comfortable escape, and one of the first episodes is about a deadly unknown virus spreading through the station, in which quark says in so many words that his bar is providing an 'essential service' so he won't close it down, and a freighter captain tries to break quarantine to avoid catching it and hit his deadlines.
So that was a fun, entirely fantastical escape from the stress of the modern world.
This is the final blow to "the Age of Information, where Ignorance is a choice". There are people out there who deny all of this, yet how can we expect them to believe that things such as the Holocaust happened, and the Earth is not flat? This is without any doubt the darkest side of providing people with free internet.
I sympathize with MitoPL not being able to breathe with his mask properly on (I’ve had my own breathed moisture inside my mask backflow into my throat and make me cough more than once) but since suffocation and leaving your nose exposed is too dangerous to other people, then MitoPL’s method of periodically pulling away the lower flap of his mask while not exposing his mouth is really the only option.There's a correction to be made here: when physically active, I just need to have my nose uncovered - if I don't, in the simplest words, I overheat nearly instantly and my only alternative is to touch my mask every couple minutes (which is often not possible, I need my hands to be free often).
Associated Press
High court blocks NY coronavirus limits on houses of worship
JESSICA GRESKO
Thu, November 26, 2020, 12:22 AM EST
WASHINGTON (AP) — As coronavirus cases surge again nationwide the Supreme Court late Wednesday barred New York from enforcing certain limits on attendance at churches and synagogues in areas designated as hard hit by the virus.
The justices split 5-4 with new Justice Amy Coney Barrett in the majority. It was the conservative’s first publicly discernible vote as a justice. The court’s three liberal justices and Chief Justice John Roberts dissented.
QuoteAssociated Press
High court blocks NY coronavirus limits on houses of worship
JESSICA GRESKO
Thu, November 26, 2020, 12:22 AM EST
WASHINGTON (AP) — As coronavirus cases surge again nationwide the Supreme Court late Wednesday barred New York from enforcing certain limits on attendance at churches and synagogues in areas designated as hard hit by the virus.
The justices split 5-4 with new Justice Amy Coney Barrett in the majority. It was the conservative’s first publicly discernible vote as a justice. The court’s three liberal justices and Chief Justice John Roberts dissented.
Lol we're* gonna die
*a bunch of churchgoing olds
Christians who absolutely must be in a church to worship God regardless of the obvious danger to themselves or others aren't real Christians.
Sorry to hear that Mjn.
It really does annoy me that I get to go out and have fun with my friends in China and yet back home my mum and sister have to spend Christmas alone because of a lockdown that could easily have been avoided. I literally said that the government should have locked down in October and said it was a "Save Christmas" lockdown.
My newborn has a fever of 102. I'm a mess.crap.
My newborn got symptoms. Her fever finally broke the other night, so that's a good sign.
"REPUBLICANO FACTIO DELENDA EST" which is "The Republican Party must be destroyed" in Latin. I can't wait to wear that one in public, especially after the treasonous insurrection at the Capitol on Jan 6.
Shouldn't it be Republicana Factio Delenda Est...?Actually, you’re quite right. I just got the mask today and I’m going to wear them tomorrow at work.
Back at the beginning of this **** I floated "three million dead Americans" as an absurd worst case scenario. We're up to 400,000! With 100,000 in the last couple weeks alone! So we're only three doublings from exceeding my goal.
Nice!!!!
Guess whose place of employment is in the midst of a major outbreak? And guess who tested positive yesterday? This guy!
You can't have it because it's a hoax and wearing a mask infringes on your freedoms.I mean everyone at my workplace (a high school) does wear masks for the entire day, except for lunch...which is where most of the teachers who got it were most likely exposed, since they all share the same lunch period. I don't know what my vector was, but it was probably cafeteria duty, when I'm in near-ish vicinity of over 75 kids removing their masks to eat.
At the moment the only real symptoms I have are full loss of smell and partial loss of taste. That and sheer boredom from being confined to the walls of my bedroom.
At the moment the only real symptoms I have are full loss of smell and partial loss of taste. That and sheer boredom from being confined to the walls of my bedroom.
Yeah, it's kind of astounding reading about how it's been handled over there. We ****ed up pretty much everything else yet somehow we've done shockingly well at rolling out the vaccine. A number of states are making it available to everyone over 16 without restrictions now. My state is not nearly so competent, but it did make the fantastic call to allocate its entire initial batch of the J&J version to educators, so I got my dose a couple of weeks ago.
We did well in the UK too.
*mumble* *mumble* fascists *mumble* *mumble* trains run on time. :p
An old friend of mine, AND my parents have decided not to get the vaccine. My mom says she's immunocompromised, so that makes sense, but my dad and friend don't have any good reason and it's unbelievable. As far as I've been able to gather, it's a nebulous mistrust of "the government"; they don't seem to understand that we're not dealing with the government, but with a frikken' deadly virus!
Politically it makes perfect sense. The vaccine rollout is something that can be blamed directly on the politicians leading it, so they have to be extremely cautious. Unlike the lockdown rules, where the politicians can blame Jan Publiek for not following their (too little, too late and not backed up by solid testing or track and trace) guidelines.
This is a weird doublepost.
My grandma, medicated for a preexisting lung condition, caught this disease. So far she is ok. I'd appreciate any happy thoughts. :(
Vaccine booking for me (30 y.o. with non life-threatening pre-existing health issues) should have started next Friday in order to get the first shot by June according to the original vaccine plan, but Lombardy region decided to put it back because reasons.Turned out it was postponed by one day only.
Unavailable in the UK. 😭
Got my second Pfizer shot yesterday. Despite knowing lots of people who fell sick for a couple of day after the second shot, I had no side effects at all.
Second shot's scheduled for the 19th of September.
Second shot's scheduled for the 19th of September.
I thought it was supposed to be a month, not three?
Got my second Pfizer shot yesterday. Despite knowing lots of people who fell sick for a couple of day after the second shot, I had no side effects at all.
After a while that's actually started to weird me out. Had no side effects either and it's like... "Did it work?"
which means my WeChat code goes gold.
I do find it amusing that Chinese people are worried about foreigners spreading the virus. A foreigner in China has almost certainly been here the entire time since flight restrictions make it really hard for new people to enter. Any random Chinese person you meet might have flown in two weeks ago.
I mean, racism doesn't make a lot of sense.
Still frustrated as all hell that our various European and American nations couldn't have done a better job at handing the CCP a propaganda victory though.
“You kind of go into it thinking, ‘Okay, I’m not going to feel bad for this person, because they make their own choice,’” Cobia said. “But then you actually see them, you see them face to face, and it really changes your whole perspective, because they’re still just a person that thinks that they made the best decision that they could with the information that they have, and all the misinformation that’s out there.
“And now all you really see is their fear and their regret. And even though I may walk into the room thinking, ‘Okay, this is your fault, you did this to yourself,’ when I leave the room, I just see a person that’s really suffering, and that is so regretful for the choice that they made.”
Isn't it ironic... don't you think?
Isn't it ironic... don't you think?
A doctor in Alabama tells the story of her having to treat dying patients who could've gotten the vaccine but didn't. (https://www.al.com/news/2021/07/im-sorry-but-its-too-late-alabama-doctor-on-treating-unvaccinated-dying-covid-patients.html)Quote from: The linked article, emphasis mine“You kind of go into it thinking, ‘Okay, I’m not going to feel bad for this person, because they make their own choice,’” Cobia said. “But then you actually see them, you see them face to face, and it really changes your whole perspective, because they’re still just a person that thinks that they made the best decision that they could with the information that they have, and all the misinformation that’s out there.
“And now all you really see is their fear and their regret. And even though I may walk into the room thinking, ‘Okay, this is your fault, you did this to yourself,’ when I leave the room, I just see a person that’s really suffering, and that is so regretful for the choice that they made.”
Joshua, what date was that Natural News article posted? I think I remember Republicans last year celebrating about how the coronavirus was rampaging through blue states and not red states, so I'm curious if this article was published around the same time.
On a related note, my family and I were going to have dinner at a restaurant tonight to celebrate a family anniversary, but my sister canceled it out of (entirely justified) concern for the Delta variant even though we're all vaccinated. So now we're just gonna get carry-out instead and eat dinner at Dad's place.
F@ck those anti-vaxx COVID deniers. I have no sympathy for the unvaccinated now. They had their chance to save themselves and not put the rest of us at risk. They failed. Karma is a b!tch sometimes.
The Delta variant has a very unusual capability of spreading much more easily than the Alpha did. And the other data we're having right now is that, when people get breakthrough infections, when they're vaccinated and they get infected, even when they have a situation where they don't have an advanced disease, they clearly can transmit it to other people.(source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/dr-fauci-on-cdcs-reimposed-mask-guidelines-vaccine-requirements-and-gop-criticism?fbclid=IwAR1AjhuXMDPneDnaPbQm30jnGQUrGx03H1T-BImV0nT94pohzKrKRMbmPrk )
This is not a common event. So I don't want people to be thinking that all kinds of vaccinated people are transmitting it. No, it's a very unusual, rare event, but it occurs.
So, when you have vaccinated people who might have a breakthrough infection, and we know now as the fact, as a scientific fact, that they can transmit the virus to an uninfected person, it's for that reason that the CDC made the change in recommendation, and did, just as you correctly stated, namely, that, if you are vaccinated, if you are in indoor setting, you should still wear a mask.
Well when half of your population is too dumb or easily manipulated to take the vaccine, yes, the effectiveness of the vaccine is pretty effectively compromised. It's like the antibiotic apocalypse. The virus is getting exposed to vaccine-boosted immune systems. So selection pressure drives the virus in the direction of mutations that can evade the vaccine. If everyone had the vaccine, there would be precious few places for the virus to breed and mutate, so it might actually be possible to kill it off. But with half the population in utter denial, they are perfect breeding ground while the virus plays out random permutations to break through the vaccine barrier.
As long as this situation remains unchanged, it seems pretty obvious to me how it will play out. The virus isn't going to stop, and we don't have the collective will power to do what it takes to stop it. In the meantime, my governor not only will not reinstate a mask mandate even as cases skyrocket, he has made it illegal for local city government (including school districts) from requiring masks to be worn.
School just started again, and my kids are nearly the only ones wearing masks there, and I just got emails informing me that 2 students in my daughter's class have been infected, and she's been exposed. She's vaccinated, and again, she wears her mask. But by now, how many other kids have been infected, even if she has not? I'm right on the ragged edge of hitting my panic button and pulling them out of school.
What Fauci said:QuoteThe Delta variant has a very unusual capability of spreading much more easily than the Alpha did. And the other data we're having right now is that, when people get breakthrough infections, when they're vaccinated and they get infected, even when they have a situation where they don't have an advanced disease, they clearly can transmit it to other people.(source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/dr-fauci-on-cdcs-reimposed-mask-guidelines-vaccine-requirements-and-gop-criticism?fbclid=IwAR1AjhuXMDPneDnaPbQm30jnGQUrGx03H1T-BImV0nT94pohzKrKRMbmPrk )
This is not a common event. So I don't want people to be thinking that all kinds of vaccinated people are transmitting it. No, it's a very unusual, rare event, but it occurs.
So, when you have vaccinated people who might have a breakthrough infection, and we know now as the fact, as a scientific fact, that they can transmit the virus to an uninfected person, it's for that reason that the CDC made the change in recommendation, and did, just as you correctly stated, namely, that, if you are vaccinated, if you are in indoor setting, you should still wear a mask.
What Italian medias are saying:
"OMG FAUCI SAID VACCINES DON'T WORK!!!"
:sigh:
What Fauci said:QuoteThe Delta variant has a very unusual capability of spreading much more easily than the Alpha did. And the other data we're having right now is that, when people get breakthrough infections, when they're vaccinated and they get infected, even when they have a situation where they don't have an advanced disease, they clearly can transmit it to other people.(source: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/dr-fauci-on-cdcs-reimposed-mask-guidelines-vaccine-requirements-and-gop-criticism?fbclid=IwAR1AjhuXMDPneDnaPbQm30jnGQUrGx03H1T-BImV0nT94pohzKrKRMbmPrk )
This is not a common event. So I don't want people to be thinking that all kinds of vaccinated people are transmitting it. No, it's a very unusual, rare event, but it occurs.
So, when you have vaccinated people who might have a breakthrough infection, and we know now as the fact, as a scientific fact, that they can transmit the virus to an uninfected person, it's for that reason that the CDC made the change in recommendation, and did, just as you correctly stated, namely, that, if you are vaccinated, if you are in indoor setting, you should still wear a mask.
What Italian medias are saying:
"OMG FAUCI SAID VACCINES DON'T WORK!!!"
:sigh:
I had quite a heated discussion about this on Facebook.
Apparently getting everyone vaccinated is "fascism" because vaccines don't work and can kill you.
As you can see, comrades, our situation is shockingly grim. [...] Total vaccination is the only way this thing stops.
well there you go lads now people will actually do something about it (https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210513/coronavirus-lingers-in-penis-and-could-cause-impotence#1).That's great news.
Double post update.
So who's got two thumbs and covid?
👍😂👍
At Goodall Witcher Hospital in the central Texas town of Clifton, officials are finding it difficult to transfer Covid-19 patients in need of ICU care to other hospitals since they are at capacity, they say.
In the State and Country dropdowns, I select Texas and Bosque County, respectively. Then in the map just beneath that, I choose Hospital Utilization, and "% staffed ICU beds used for COVID-19". In the map, most of Texas' counties (incl. Bosque) seem to have no data, but the few that do are in the 20%-30% range.
Am I misunderstanding something here?
But okay, 30% of the beds occupied at max. That uh actually seems kind of bad? How many free ICU beds does a hospital usually have?
In that same article is this quote: “When you go to the state website and it shows ICU beds available. Those numbers are horribly incorrect,” Squyres explained.
Where's this coming from, Sandwich?
Clifton texas has a population of about 4000. Even the whole county it's in is 18k. It's a tiny speck in the 29 million people of texas, I'm not sure how you can conclude anything about the state of anywhere from looking at it.
But okay, 30% of the beds occupied at max. That uh actually seems kind of bad? How many free ICU beds does a hospital usually have? How many free beds in general? An empty bed doesn't make money so I would assume not that much. 30% extra load might be catastrophic for all I know, or it could be nothing.
How about Dallas county? Close to 35% and on a terrifying slope. Tarrant county(the FW part of DFW)? 43%. Adjacent Denton county is showing fifty ****ing seven percent.
Again, this isn't beds used, it's beds used for covid only. Unless the ICU is always at least half empty, then yeah it's overflowing right now.
Yes. Because the percentage of ICU beds used for Covid19 is only counting the ICU beds that are used for Covid19. There's a lot of other reasons why people want to use ICU beds. If 10 ICU beds are in use and 3 are in use by covid patients, then the statistic is going to say that 30% of the beds are used for COVID-19.
Or, why am I asking these questions? ;)Maybe it was just an anticipation of yet another antivaxxer surfacing, so they could unanimously exclude you from the public discourse, high-five over saving the world once again and move on with their day.
Then in the map just beneath that, I choose Hospital Utilization, and "% staffed ICU beds used for COVID-19".Let's just stress the "staffed" word. It's a yet another variable.
Maybe it was just an anticipation of yet another antivaxxer surfacing, so they could unanimously exclude you from the public discourse, high-five over saving the world once again and move on with their day.
Beyond that, a purely housekeeping question: shouldn't this be in the actual covid thread?
Jesus man, real sorry to hear that. I'm sure you'll make it fight for every inch!
Note to all participants: Sandwich's small tangent here has the potential to become political and/or heated very quickly. Please think before you post and assume good faith. We'll keep an eye on it; report any issues. If it becomes quite political, it and its associated discussion will be bumped to PolDisc.
That's fair, no worries. Was your question answered sufficiently, or did you need more?
It was, yep. I think it's idiotic that a thread about a global pandemic could be considered a political discussion
So my horrendous chest pain is lessened. Foggy head and chills have subsided. I think I'm getting the better of this.
So my horrendous chest pain is lessened. Foggy head and chills have subsided. I think I'm getting the better of this.
My wife (currently and luckily down south with out kids visiting her parents due to a pre booked holiday, worked out nicely) has berates me for being nonchalant about my falling prey to infection. I reminded her thst my job to date has been to get within kissing distance of bombs and explosives designed to kill people who find bombs. I've had sit down chats with 17 year old boys about will writing and the high risks of death in our game, so the whole mortality thing is something I came to terms with over 20 years ago. And I'm only just noticing the difference between my professional circle and those not in it regarding "signing off".
I'm not saying I'm not respecting the lethality of covid, my wife an do have both lost a friend each to it. I just never see the sense in panic and letting it "kill my spirit" 😂
So my horrendous chest pain is lessened. Foggy head and chills have subsided. I think I'm getting the better of this.
My wife (currently and luckily down south with out kids visiting her parents due to a pre booked holiday, worked out nicely) has berates me for being nonchalant about my falling prey to infection. I reminded her thst my job to date has been to get within kissing distance of bombs and explosives designed to kill people who find bombs. I've had sit down chats with 17 year old boys about will writing and the high risks of death in our game, so the whole mortality thing is something I came to terms with over 20 years ago. And I'm only just noticing the difference between my professional circle and those not in it regarding "signing off".
I'm not saying I'm not respecting the lethality of covid, my wife an do have both lost a friend each to it. I just never see the sense in panic and letting it "kill my spirit" 😂
After seeing quite a bit of people dying around me without having been in the military I think the thought that bothers me most about mortality is not my own death (though I did get a full blast of death anxiety a year or so after my suicidal feelings had subsidized), but mostly the thought that other people can and will die suddenly, without warning, and I will have to live the rest of my without them. Like I 've been told the line between the army and the partner is sometimes a bit blurry, but I'm quite sure only the former considers you to be replacable :P
I got boosteeed
Got my booster yesterday too.
I had COVID-like symptoms two weeks ago (sudden 37,5 °C fever which even peaked up to 39 °C for one evening), luckily the swab turned out negative, so it was probably parainfluenza.
Now let's hope now that this nu variant doesn't f**k everything up.
(oh it was renamed omicron and the "nu variant" dad joke does not work anymore? :( )
Yeah, seriously, did we just skip half of the Greek alphabet or were there epsilon and lambda etc variants that just weren’t splashy enough to make the news?
Yeah, seriously, did we just skip half of the Greek alphabet or were there epsilon and lambda etc variants that just weren’t splashy enough to make the news? Or are they just skipping the “boring” letters?Italian media told "OMG we are doomed!" for every new variant that appeared (I clearly remember apocalyptic articles for Epsilon, Mu and Lamba variants), luckily they were not "good enough" to spread better than Delta.