[Fury]

I really like what you've done with FSPort, I really do. But I have to disagree with your attempt to maintain backwards compatibility with retail FS2.

At the moment FSPort and mediavps do not co-exist for the benefit of a fredder. A fredder cannot create missions taking place during FS2 timeline but including ships from FSPort for the simple reason that FSPort doesn't allow it due to use of tbl files. So that leaves a fredder with only one choice. Make his standalone missions or campaign into a mod. This is a lot of trouble to just duplicate already existing content.

For a simple fredder having FS1-era assets in his missions that take place during FS2-era may prove to be insurmountable task. Or a task that just isn't worth it.

Now that 3.6.12 is almost final, number of tbl entries won't be such a big problem anymore as 3.6.12 recommends Inferno builds over old standard ones. In 3.7.0 there won't be standard builds anymore. So honestly, I only see disadvantages for fredders and modders alike if FSPort continues to keep retail compatibility.

Sorry folks, but FS2_Open is where is it at. Mediavps and FSPort should be able to co-exist in a way that fredders can use ships and weapons from either era in missions which can take place at any time.

Some tables are still lacking modular support, but this is something that can be corrected for 3.7.0 and make it possible for FSPort to be fully modular for the convenience of fredders and modders alike. Screw retail support, really. We're not living in the '98 anymore.

* Fury  dons asbestos suit

[MatthTheGeek]

Agreed. I also think that we can just keep the current version of FSPort somewhere for retail compatibility, and start working on MediaVPs compatibility for the future versions.

[Goober5000]

You have the wrong impression.  Retail compatibility is not the reason we chose to use separate table files for the FSPort.  Recall that in the 2.x release cycle, the FS1 and FS2 ships coexisted in the same table.  We were able to squeeze everything into the 130-ship limit, including the special ship variants for Playing Judas.  We even included some bugfixed versions of the FS2 retail missions with all of our ported missions.  We had every intention that users be able to run FSPort and FS2 simultaneously.

Then we discovered just how many changes happened between FS1 and FS2.  The SD Demon, for example, had its hitpoints bumped by 60%.  The PVF Horus had a significant change in maneuverability.  There were weapon differences.  There were AI alterations.  The list goes on and on.  Cataloging and fixing these changes comprised three solid (as in jam-packed) months of work at the beginning of 2006, during which ST:R was put on hold.

It turns out that putting everything in fresh tables made the most sense.  With brand new table entries, we can include the FS1 tech descriptions in addition to the FS1 statistics.  We can cleanly structure our mod around comprehensively supporting the FS1-ST-Templar-Reconstruction era, without having to worry about legacy information and loose ends from FS2 overshadowing it.  We also freed up a large number of table slots for additional FS1-era ships and weapons (although you are correct to say that this point is rendered moot with the bumped limits in recent FSO builds).  In short, we have our own unique mod.  It is not so much an addition to the FS2 era as it is a replacement for it.  With some more work, it could even be a total conversion, though we don't want to go down that route because we don't want to entangle ourselves in the issue of whether that could count as providing a copy of FS1.

Furthermore, we have never shied away from supporting FS2_Open.  I have personally coded a large number of FSO features specifically for the FSPort, such as debriefing persona control, version-specific commenting, the voice acting manager, and so on.  The Port fully supports the use of mediaVPs and even has its own section in the FSU forum for it.  The Port also provides original background arrangements using mediaVP nebula art in addition to the standard retail FS2 background arrangements.

I think you're confusing "FREDder" with "spin-off mod maker".  It is very easy for a FREDder to use the port to make his own missions, with no modding required: just activate the Port mod folder, fire up FRED, and go.  On the other hand, if the Port's table files were structured the way you suggest, we would have a large number of entries with Ship X#FS1 Era and Ship X#FS2 Era (or likewise for weapons).  This would make FREDding quite tedious for not only the casual Port user, but also the advanced FS1 mission importer.  Imagine trying to import a mission and being prompted to choose either the FS1 or FS2 version of half of the ships and weapons used in the mission.  This situation would be ludicrous in practice.  Far better for us to make a clean break with the FS2 era and focus our efforts on FS1.  You'll note that this does not prevent other mods from using FSPort assets; all they have to do is make a custom TBM file with the ships, weapons, and AI profiles of their choosing.  This is a very small additional amount of work on their part, but this is a small price to pay for an overall coherent and consistent mod.

I'm sorry but this is merely another example of the typical "Holy crap you support retail so you must hate FSO!" fallacy that we commonly see around here.  Rest assured that Galemp and I have discussed this extensively for many years and we have very solid reasons for organizing the mod the way we do.

[Fury]

That still does not solve the actual problem. The amount of work you need to do in order to collect all required maps, models and tbl entries to just publish an FS2 mission or two is counter-productive. One solution to the problem would be to move FS1 ships and weapons that are missing in FS2 to mediavps. That would allow fredders to use them all in missions without having to go into the lengths of making a few missions or a campaign into full mod.

But I see we have plenty of purists who want to keep mediavps as minimal as possible. But that can be solved by having separate mediavps vp for FS1 stuff.

[Goober5000]

We already have a separate mediaVPs VP for Port stuff.  It includes such things as the high-poly Karnak, and it is being actively added to with models such as the high-poly Hades.  And your "solution" of moving the FS1 ships and weapons to the mediaVPs ignores what I said about making the Port a comprehensive mod for the FS1 era.

And you are significantly exaggerating the amount of work required to create a modular release with FSPort assets.  Take the Apollo for example: all that is necessary is to copy the ships.tbl entry to a new text file (with appropriate edits for the weapons), consult the entry to copy the POF file and the HUD art, and consult the POF file to copy the textures.  It can be done in a few minutes.  I know; I've done it myself.

You're complaining about about a very specific scenario that only affects a very small number of mod makers.  It's not appropriate for the Port to change its entire organizational structure to cater to your specific edge case, especially when what you need is so easily derived from what we provide.  The vast majority of our users create campaigns based around the FS1-ST-Templar-Reconstruction era, and we designed the Port specifically with those users in mind.  In fact, it is not uncommon for us to use modular tables the other way around; i.e. expanding the Port ship set with ships and weapons drawn in from external sources.

[Fury]

The separate mediavps vp does not include anything but the high-quality assets, alone it is not enough to provide necessary FS1-era assets for fredders.

I see you're using the word "mod maker". See, I'm not. All this time I used the word "fredder", a fredder doesn't have to know a thing about tables, how to open pofs or anything of the sort. A fredder wants to create a mission with specific assets in mind. At the moment we're denying those fredders just that. Don't you think the reason why we haven't seen any such missions around here could be because it's not worth the effort for few missions to bundle a full modpack, assuming fredder even knows how to do that.

Are non-modder fredders really such a niche they can be safely ignored?

[headdie]

I suppose the problem we have is that Port has grown into an entity semi sepperate from the rest of the community, the fact that it is as intergrated as it is with origins in a seperate game release is difficult i imagine.

I suppose what we could use is someone with a few days to spare to sit down and merge the tables and mediavps into a mod for ppl wanting to create a reconstruction era campaign to use a a base.  all that would be requied then would be for the fredder to use team loadout options and a sence of continuality to keep everything together

[Fury]

One way to work around the issue would be to split the one big FSPort vp-file into smaller downloads. At the very least those fredders that have no knowledge of modding (and the lazy ones too) can just pick up smaller FSPort vp-file containing models, maps, cache and tbm's to use them and drop it into their own mod dir. That alone could be just enough.

[Goober5000]

What about Shrouding the Light, Sol: A History, Phantoms, Echo Gate, Points of View, What If, and 0rph3u5's three "Memories of the Great War" campaigns?  Do they not count as "any such missions" using the Port?  What about Inferno: Alliance, which merges Inferno ships into the FSPort ship pack?

And you're again insisting that we divide up the Port release into modular tables, just to fill your specific requirements, when I've already clearly outlined the rationale for keeping the release in a single ships.tbl that overrides the FS2 ships.tbl.

I assume that you want to merge some Port ships into Blue Planet.  If that's the case, then post your needs here and I or another Port support person will be happy to walk you through it.  But don't insist that we reorganize our entire mod, for the worse, just because you'd like a drop-in trouble-free mod.  Such a thing doesn't exist.

[General Battuta]

No, this request is totally unrelated to Blue Planet.

[Goober5000]

Okay.  Well, even if it's not, the offer still stands.

[Admiral Nelson]

I do agree in a limited way with at least part of this request.  I think it would be advantageous to split out the FS1 models, maps and hud icons alone into a separate vp.  This vp could then live in the root folder with the ordinary FS2 vps.  No tables, modular or otherwise, should be included.  In this way the many campaigns which use Port ships (Pandora's Box, Twilight, etc) do not need to distribute separate copies of these same models over and over -- not to mention having also to distribute both high and low poly models.  Since no tables would be included the extra files should not impact anything.  The high poly Port models and maps can then sit in the ordinary media vps folder.  These steps would at least make it easy to use these canon models in an FS2 setting. 

[Fury]

What about Shrouding the Light, Sol: A History, Phantoms, Echo Gate, Points of View, What If, and 0rph3u5's three "Memories of the Great War" campaigns?  Do they not count as "any such missions" using the Port?  What about Inferno: Alliance, which merges Inferno ships into the FSPort ship pack?

You seem to be missing the point I'm trying to made. Oh well.

And you're again insisting that we divide up the Port release into modular tables, just to fill your specific requirements, when I've already clearly outlined the rationale for keeping the release in a single ships.tbl that overrides the FS2 ships.tbl.

FS1 ship and weapon entries covered by tbm's can also exist in tbl's and tbl's can be in the same vp file as missions. You don't lose retail compatibility, you don't lose single large tbl's, but you gain drop-in vp-file for FS1 assets that don't already exist in FS2.

I assume that you want to merge some Port ships into Blue Planet.  If that's the case, then post your needs here and I or another Port support person will be happy to walk you through it.  But don't insist that we reorganize our entire mod, for the worse, just because you'd like a drop-in trouble-free mod.  Such a thing doesn't exist.

Nothing to do with BP and I am perfectly capable of doing any of this myself if need to be and so are rest of BP staffers.

I believe I've made my point as well as I possibly can, so I won't pursue the subject any further.

[Mongoose]

Are non-modder fredders really such a niche they can be safely ignored?

Considering that "modding" can consist of looking up a table file on the Wiki and changing a single value, I honestly think that they are.  I've never so much as FREDded a single mission myself, but if I've been able to figure out how to do that much, it's not exactly asking the world for legitimate FREDders to do the same.

[Solatar]

I think, unfortunately, the fact that many "identical" ships in FS1 and FS2 have different stats makes it hard to combine everything into one table.  It would really just make things far too crowded.  I would support the decision to at least include a vp with the mediavps that contained some Freespace 1 ship models, to avoid them having to be distributed with every mod that would use them.

As far as I'm concerned, the Port is a total conversion, not a MOD.  Hell, in my setup I don't even have it installed as such.  I have a folder - Descent Freespace - separate from my Freespace 2 folder where all my port related stuff goes.  Helps me keep my time periods separate.

[Galemp]

I can see that there's popular support for a 'FSPort Lite' mod, one that packs the art assets and modular tables into a VP that can be plopped into any mod.

This is not a bad idea. However, I would argue that many ship and weapon mods should be released in this format--as it is, almost everything that's ever been released by the community has been unusable by Fredders out of the box, even with modular tables. If you want to argue for a unified asset distribution system, I encourage you to post on the FS Modding forum.

Fury, I do understand the point you're trying to make, and if you're willing to pick apart our assets and compile a core 'Port Lite' VP, then you could provide Fredders with a valuable resource. I encourage you to do so, however such a system will not be the primary distribution method used by FreeSpace Port, for the aforementioned reasons that we have to make a decision about the FS1 and FS2 discrepancies.

[Fury]

for the aforementioned reasons that we have to make a decision about the FS1 and FS2 discrepancies.

The "lite" vp-file would only contain ships and weapons that don't already exist in FS2. For example, SD Demon's altered stats wouldn't be included in the vp. Tbm containing altered stats for FS2 ships like SD Demon would be in the vp-file that contains missions.

[Galemp]

The point is that we're changing virtually every data file there is in FS2. If, for your purposes, you want to extract and re-pack some of the most common assets and distribute them to the community, then be our guest. But a comprehensive FSPort is a single project with plenty of utility in recreating the FS1 era, so it's going to remain unified as-is.

[Macfie]

I believe Dragon was working on a FS1 to FS2 mod that would allow you to use FS1 ships in FS2.  It is in temporary uploads on freespacemods.net

[Droid803]

That still does not solve the actual problem. The amount of work you need to do in order to collect all required maps, models and tbl entries to just publish an FS2 mission or two is counter-productive.

Maybe for you.
For me, putting together the modpack is the fun part.
FREDding is just a chore.

The greatest concern I have is that I don't want all this useless crap hanging around. When I link to the mediavps, I don't want to be automagically thrown a bunch of stuff from FSPort  or some Shivanized GTVA weapons that I'm never going to use. In fact, the mediavps lumping shivanized GTVA missiles is already making me consider just taking all the files I need from the mediavps and incorporating them straight into the mod itself and remove the dependency altogether, so I don't need to sift through fifty extra weapon/ship entries I don't want when looking for stuff in FRED and get errors about missing weapons/ships because I removed them from my Ships.tbl. (Actually, this more affects some campaigns like Allied Forces that should technically be able to use the mediavps assets, but is totally incompatible with the tables).

Hell, I'd even think separating the tables in the mediavps from the assets altogether would go a long way in making my life easier.