[bloated]

it kind of plays ok into they sent one of their best ships and it was destroyed...

Erhm excuse me... but even if what we saw of the Shivans in FS2 is all they have, the Luci is utterly insignificant.

you missed my post completely.

specifically I mention that not only did the GTVA destroy the Lucifer but also the Ravana and Sathanas juggernauts.....

in effect the Shivans had nothing to fear from the Ancients because the Ancients had never managed a significant victory against them..... while on the other hand the GTVA handed them several defeats including destroying one of their capital ships well above and beyond the Lucifer.

it's an escalation of the conflict and each time the GTVA managed to defeat them... not only defeat but actually counterattack no matter how ineffective or effective depending on how you want to write in the destruction of those Shivan mystery devices during the final SOC mission in FS2.

this taken in context could explain why they decided to walk away from the conflict.... especially if they had no idea what they were dealing with and had never lost before.

they also had Bosch and his confederates to chew on in the meantime after securing their systems from further incursions.

[General Battuta]

Right, except that the destruction of the devices in 'Into the Lion's Den' can't possibly be part of the reason the Shivans 'withdrew' because the player might very well not destroy them.

[Droid803]

Right, except that the destruction of the devices in 'Into the Lion's Den' can't possibly be part of the reason the Shivans 'withdrew' because the player might very well not destroy them.

I thought destroying the devices was one of the primary objectives?

Also, even if the player didn't choose to fly the SOC missions, it doesn't mean noone else did.

[Mikes]

this taken in context could explain why they decided to walk away from the conflict.... especially if they had no idea what they were dealing with and had never lost before.

Yeah... sure... they were so afraid of the "Mosquito" that is the GTVA that they stopped their uncoordinated swatting and ran away from it in fear for their lifes.

I'd consider it a likilier explanation that they simply didn't care enough about the "overconfident gnat relentlessly attacking them" to honor them with with anything more than two thoughtless swipes while they went on with their business, whatever that may be. The Sathanas are impressive from our point of view because we compare them to what the GTVA had... and they only had 1 Colossus, the Shivans had at least 80 Sathani. But there is no reason or fact that would give a foundation to assume that the Shivans treat their Sathani as anything other than disposable units without any kind of intrinsic value at all.

All these theories that attribute human emotions or thinking to them and try to rationalize their behavior along the lines of how another "human star power" may have acted simply fall totally flat considering what any human admiral who found it even remotely important to wipe out the GTVA would have done with 80 Sathani, their supporting fleet elements and the associated fighter squadrons...   a real "war" with the Shivans in the traditional sense would have been so utterly one sided it's not even funny - heck, not even "Alpha1" could deal with 100+ to 1 odds... The GTVA would be screwed beyond hope even if all their pilots were Alpha1;) lol I mean... just take a minute and really appreciate the numberical imbalance that we are talking about here.

And now just consider the first invasion... the Lucifer Fleet for another moment... a threath that the GTVA was actually able to match... did the Shivans seem even remotely concerned with losses or self preservation or an "avoidance" of conflict, while you pretty much completely took the Lucis supporting fleet apart ?

And while the Luci was beatable... it would take a plothole of epic proportions coupled with several extraordinary leaps of faith and a severe kicking of the canon with feet to allow the GTVA to not just avoid, but somehow magically defeat the forces that the Shivans arrayed against them in FS2 in Battle. lol. I hereby present you the Independence Freespace Ending of suckiness: Let's upload a virus into their comnodes and kick their butts! Toot toot!  

In any case...  any kind of continuation really only would make sense if you are looking at NOT from a viewpoint "how to" defeat or explain the Shivans, but rather of how to preserve the overall atmosphere and integrity of the IP.

[NGTM-1R]

*snip*

The amount of unsupported conjecture presented as fact in this post is luverly.

The Shivans may not, probably don't in fact, have any conception of the depth to which Terran-Vasudan power runs. They simply had no way to accumulate such knowledge in FS2, except through Aken Bosch, and given what they did the only real conclusion along those lines is that Bosch feed them a gigantic load of crap involving a Terran-Vasudan fleet many hundreds of times more powerful than it actually was backed by enough Colossi to make even 80 Sathanas juggernauts worry. (Assuming they even needed the Colossus to do so, which they probably did not. Massed destroyer/corvette assault will probably work just as well.)

I've already posisted that the atmosphere and integrity of the IP (i.e. the growth and change of the Terran race) is best served by the defeat of the Shivans. In the end, in fact, I think I can make it stick without even having much trouble.

The Shivans are both the destroyer and the preserver; they are an imperfect tool, because all that they preserve they must eventually destroy. We know of no other means of faster-than-light travel than the use of subspace. There is no reason to think that any is possible. All or nearly all races will enter subspace and travel beyond their home systems. The conclusion presented in the FS1 ending that they preserve those not yet able to defend themselves by eliminating the others who could reach them is thus true, but presents a grossly flawed system.

But in forcing Terran/Vasudan harmony, in demonstrating that both species are terribly outclassed, the Shivans have rendered themselves redundant. Terrans and Vasudans will not make war on any other civilization they discover. They will extend the hand of friendship and try to make alliance, because they need allies. The Shivans were the symptom of a bigger problem, but they were not the solution. They created such a solution inadvertantly (or was it?) instead. Now they are the problem themselves.

And now just consider the first invasion... the Lucifer Fleet for another moment... a threath that the GTVA was actually able to match... did the Shivans seem even remotely concerned with losses or self preservation or an "avoidance" of conflict, while you pretty much completely took the Lucis supporting fleet apart ?

This in particular I have to take exception to. Canonical evidence is firmly in the concept that the Shivans were in fact mindful of their losses (the mission to capture the Taranis says as much), as any competent military force would be, and even after the loss of the Lucifer still could and did make a fighting bid for victory. (ST's mission "Hellfire" outright says as much.) The conception of the Shivans as a swarm of insects like ants or bees is shiney and distracting from the truth. They are very competent practioners of warfare, and they are not stupid. They are manuver warfare on an interstellar scale, well-versed in exploiting shock effect and hampered enemy reactions, going after the only targets that truly matter on that scale (jump nodes, the choke points and foundations of interstellar travel), and well aware of how to use their superior mobility (advanced subspace technologies) to best effect.

The FS2 Shivans demonstrate the same skills, but on an ironically much smaller stage.

[General Battuta]

The question is, NGTM-1R, whether they do any of those things consciously. An argument might be made that they're very sophisticated non-sophonts, or that they possess a very different kind of intelligence from our own individualistic cognition. (Hive minds are trite, but there are other alternatives.)

[bloated]

Right, except that the destruction of the devices in 'Into the Lion's Den' can't possibly be part of the reason the Shivans 'withdrew' because the player might very well not destroy them.

absolutely they can.... whether the player decided to play the missions or not isn't at the core of the issue much like the story never happened if the player didn't play the game.

the SOC didn't start and finish with the player the SOC is an entity within the storyline and in that storyline they accomplished a mission invading the Shivan territory... go with symbolic .... the GTVA actually invaded Shivan space... much like the Doolittle raid during WWII bombed japan.... how effective it was isn't the point.

the Shivan response to close off access to them.

Yeah... sure... they were so afraid of the "Mosquito" that is the GTVA that they stopped their uncoordinated swatting and ran away from it in fear for their lifes.

don't work within the limited framework of a human response..... what's more that gnat refuses to die and has become potentially quite destructive.

as a side note the U.S. has been destroying itself  for 9 years dumping a trillion dollars chasing ppl who live in caves & grass huts because some guys with boxcutters knocked some tall buildings down.... so let's not underestimate symbolic accomplishments.

again room is left open to maneuver here with the mystery devices in Shivan space...... how important were they.. if a gnat destroys their entire jump network..... that is one destructive gnat and not worth the risk when you can simply close access off by destroying 1 sun.

The Shivans are both the destroyer and the preserver; they are an imperfect tool, because all that they preserve they must eventually destroy. We know of no other means of faster-than-light travel than the use of subspace. There is no reason to think that any is possible. All or nearly all races will enter subspace and travel beyond their home systems. The conclusion presented in the FS1 ending that they preserve those not yet able to defend themselves by eliminating the others who could reach them is thus true, but presents a grossly flawed system.

your getting all of your information 2nd hand through the ancients....... none of this comes from the Shivans.

it's far worse than 2nd hand info given the Shivans have never been talkative to any race they are in the process of destroying.

the sole exception that we know of is following Bosch's attempt and with that they left closing off immediate access to Shivan systems..... which again plays into what I've mentioned earlier.

[General Battuta]

*headdesk* How many times have we had this debate in the past ten years?

You can come up with whatever you want to justify your theory for your campaign.

Right, except that the destruction of the devices in 'Into the Lion's Den' can't possibly be part of the reason the Shivans 'withdrew' because the player might very well not destroy them.

absolutely they can.... whether the player decided to play the missions or not isn't at the core of the issue much like the story never happened if the player didn't play the game.

the SOC didn't start and finish with the player the SOC is an entity within the storyline and in that storyline they accomplished a mission invading the Shivan territory... go with symbolic .... the GTVA actually invaded Shivan space... much like the Doolittle raid during WWII bombed japan.... how effective it was isn't the point.

the Shivan response to close off access to them.

Except that destroying those things is not necessary to complete the mission - you can complete the mission canonically without destroying a single device and then proceed with the campaign.

Thereby proving that the destruction of those devices had no bearing on the Shivan action in Capella.

[bloated]

Except that destroying those things is not necessary to complete the mission

as mentioned and you quoted even.

go with symbolic .... the GTVA actually invaded Shivan space... much like the Doolittle raid during WWII bombed japan.... how effective it was isn't the point.

even if you don't like the idea of the devices being destroyed it's of no consequence... personally I'm looking for credible explanations.

the lovely part of the devices being a mystery is that they could have been hugely significant... could have been & likely were, you can't ignore that right along with being unable to ignore that they were indeed threatened and or destroyed depending on which way you played the mission.

that is the rub.

you can criticise but you can't reject and given the abject stupidity demonstrated by a real life superpower over the past few years we also can't underestimate the reaction to such an event no matter how insignificant.

an arguement could be put forward that the SOC mission took place while the sun was being destroyed but again it's an easy fix..... the Shivans were doing "this", then the SOC mission so surprised them they immediately ordered the destruction of the sun to seal off all access..... again I'm looking for credible reasons for demonstrated actions that could certainly be considered somewhat knee jerk.

*headdesk* How many times have we had this debate in the past ten years?

You can come up with whatever you want to justify your theory for your campaign.

if you don't like the discussion....don't get me wrong I don't really care, it's a discussion about possibilities in regards to a story were all interested in but if your so frustrated then perhaps you'd be better off not being a part of it.

no one is demanding your presence here.

[General Battuta]

I'm not frustrated, but this is the Nth time we've all heard these points rehashed. You're correct that the discussion should nonetheless go on, but you have to recognize that everything any of us come up with is total wankery, and no theory has any precedence over any other.

[bloated]

you have to recognize that everything any of us come up with is total wankery, and no theory has any precedence over any other.

almost in agreement.

so long as the theory is credible and doesn't conflict with established story guidelines then it's all good... and I'm most definitely ok with discussing alternative ideas so long as they are within those simple guidelines.

my concern is with the criticism for the sake of such...... I may be wrong but I've seen resistance to any potential story which just seems kind of odd to be honest...... as a side note: their was a time any type of FS3 discussion was bad with a request against it by the mods.

it's nice to see that is gone.

[bloated]

The Shivans may not, probably don't in fact, have any conception of the depth to which Terran-Vasudan power runs. They simply had no way to accumulate such knowledge in FS2

monitored communications over time, stolen data from destroyed ships, captured data from planets they attacked would all seem feasible although I prefer them being ignorant of the GTVA.

the only real conclusion along those lines is that Bosch feed them a gigantic load of crap involving a Terran-Vasudan fleet many hundreds of times more powerful than it actually was backed by enough Colossi to make even 80 Sathanas juggernauts worry.

worry is at issue and what caused it if it was such.

let's play with the story on a much larger scale from the Shivan perspective and what they are doing.

I get the impression the Shivans have a massive empire that could potentially be at war on several different fronts simultaniously...... what level of tech they face, what level of resources they have available in question whether they are winning or losing or holding their own all a question remaining to be answered or written in.

so again let's play with the story a bit and say the Shivans are at war on multiple fronts and holding their own..... then this pesky race bumps into them called for the sake of discussion the GTVA and in order to deal with them will require a draining resources from other fronts.

how much do you send, what will be the true cost?

a front failing here for the sake of a gnat...... so they send a small in comparison fleet to see if they can destroy the race and judging by the initial tech assesment it should be feasible.... it fails and they don't know why because the loss was sudden & unexpected when they should have been winning with little effort.

now fast forward 30 years later and that race shows up again this time deeper into Shivan territory and this time they take out a Ravana class cruiser and the fleet with it.

it could be argued that the Shivans didn't dispatch the Ravana fleet because it was Bosch that activated the node in FS2 and entered it..... so this time the same "gnat" invaded Shivan territory and destroyed a fleet in the region.

so the Shivans send a Sathanas warship and it gets destroyed by the gnats again..... all while the Shivans know little to nothing about this race so what do you do?...... what resources do you dedicate that aren't already tied...... it had best be quick under the scenario I've proposed so they decide to seal the gate as fast as possible and get those ships back in place where needed while sacrificing a few just to get it done and during that process the GTVA again invades deeper into Shivan space and depending on the way you want to write it they destroy "mysterious" devices or their mere presence threatens them... either or no matter depending on the importance of those devices.

[Mikes]

*snip*

The amount of unsupported conjecture presented as fact in this post is luverly.

The Shivans may not, probably don't in fact, have any conception of the depth to which Terran-Vasudan power runs. They simply had no way to accumulate such knowledge in FS2, except through Aken Bosch, and given what they did the only real conclusion along those lines is that Bosch feed them a gigantic load of crap involving a Terran-Vasudan fleet many hundreds of times more powerful than it actually was backed by enough Colossi to make even 80 Sathanas juggernauts worry. (Assuming they even needed the Colossus to do so, which they probably did not. Massed destroyer/corvette assault will probably work just as well.)

wow... guess you kinda missed what my argument in this discussion actually was when you happily attack my "facts".
As for Bosh feeding the Shivans propaganda about the "might" of the GTVA (and them actually understanding him and also giving a s***)...  jolly me, did you mention "unsupported conjecture" there ?


If anything, then your post convinces me even more that any kind of "unoffical" FS3 attempt would be the worst thing to ever happen to the IP. Any kind of singular solution is quite inevitably doomed at this point, as obviously different people are quite fond of very different theories by now.
 
And yep... as a reminder, that was and still is my actual argument... even tho General Battutas suggestion is quite intriguing from my viewpoint,
i'm quite strongly opposed to the notion of "imposing" ANY kind of solution on anyone as a supposedly "unofficial/official" FS3 ending.


One can still discuss the benefits and drawbacks of specific endings especially as seen in light of the prevoious games artistic direction and atmosphere... but any kind of "ending" will naturally always be based on rather broad assumptions, simply because the few facts that are known about the Shivans from FS1/FS2 are anything but conclusive...     so well, i guess you kinda pointed out the obvious there. (altough, please also read individual posts in light of the premise they are based on)

[WeatherOp]

I can't post my thoughts. 

[NeonShivan]

The Shivans are a Race of Strange Evolved Ants that dont Evolve...(like that made sence). Shivans is an Advance Civilization. They were the first race to understand subspace. Then the Next then the Vasudans then Humanity. I have been learning about Shivans by diffrent people's opinions. They also have the power to re-invent the Subspace Portal. If they have the Infomation.

[Droid803]

They were the first race to understand subspace. Then the Next then the Vasudans then Humanity.

Fail. Reason: Ancients.

[NGTM-1R]

The question is, NGTM-1R, whether they do any of those things consciously. An argument might be made that they're very sophisticated non-sophonts, or that they possess a very different kind of intelligence from our own individualistic cognition. (Hive minds are trite, but there are other alternatives.)

The fact they are obviously tool-using (very sophisticated tools too) tends to wreck a nonsentient Shivan argument.

In a greater sense, warfare as the universal langauge comes into play. Assuming the Shivans are competent, and all signs on that point to yes, what they will do is not dictated by how they think but by what they are capable of. So it doesn't really matter to us what kind of intelligence they have.

wow... guess you kinda missed what my argument in this discussion actually was when you happily attack my "facts".
As for Bosh feeding the Shivans propaganda about the "might" of the GTVA (and them actually understanding him and also giving a s***)...  jolly me, did you mention "unsupported conjecture" there ?

's supported conjecture. Basically, what could Bosch have told them that would result in the course of action the Shivans took? Either he lied to them, or explained this was all a horrible mistake perpetrated by the crew of the NTC Trinity (and the Shivans know apologizing is never going to be enough).

And what your discussion is about is meaningless when you have the wrong facts. Doesn't matter what your conclusions are, you have to support them correctly.

[General Battuta]

Or he told them that humanity wanted an alliance and they, say, decided to give humanity a resource-rich nebula from which to gather new heavy metals, because that's the timespan the Shivans think on. Or something.

[Mikes]

The question is, NGTM-1R, whether they do any of those things consciously. An argument might be made that they're very sophisticated non-sophonts, or that they possess a very different kind of intelligence from our own individualistic cognition. (Hive minds are trite, but there are other alternatives.)

The fact they are obviously tool-using (very sophisticated tools too) tends to wreck a nonsentient Shivan argument.

In a greater sense, warfare as the universal langauge comes into play. Assuming the Shivans are competent, and all signs on that point to yes, what they will do is not dictated by how they think but by what they are capable of. So it doesn't really matter to us what kind of intelligence they have.

Well this really brings me back to my original argument.

As said before, the very thing that irks us about the Shivans is that we can not relate to them on an emotional or rational level.
From an artistic point of view this is a deliberate feature... they are what they are by definition and because of that, they appear as such a mystery to  us.

If you now come along and state that they "have to" be intelligent because they exhibit a certain kind of behavior and that is "why" we have to be capable to understand them... you are, from my perspective, merely professing your lack of regard for the artistic value of the properties of this fictional creation. As pointed out above... the moment you make them explainable, you make them less marvelous as a fictional concept, which is heavily based around defying this very explanation.

The irony of course is that we do not even know if they were intentionally designed this way or wether it can merely be attributed to a never released Freespace 3. The point here however is that it does not matter, because it works...  and any kind of "explanation" that aims at finally putting them into a box so we can ease off and rest our minds, would only degrade the concept at this point.

From a rational point of view, it also needs to be noted that the mere assumption that "intelligence" is universal and therefore the Shivans have to feature some form of intelligence that is comprehendable by us is a huge leap of faith right there as well, especially considering that we do not even know wether they evolved in our universe or in subspace or whatever else may be connected with it.

In my personal opinion... they are a marvelous concept if only for the very reason that these aliens... are actually quite alien... which sadly is rather rare in science fiction in general.
You will understand my dismay if that fact is not appreciated and instead people try to make them "more ordinary" for nothing more than idle curiosity

wow... guess you kinda missed what my argument in this discussion actually was when you happily attack my "facts".
As for Bosh feeding the Shivans propaganda about the "might" of the GTVA (and them actually understanding him and also giving a s***)...  jolly me, did you mention "unsupported conjecture" there ?

's supported conjecture. Basically, what could Bosch have told them that would result in the course of action the Shivans took? Either he lied to them, or explained this was all a horrible mistake perpetrated by the crew of the NTC Trinity (and the Shivans know apologizing is never going to be enough).

And what your discussion is about is meaningless when you have the wrong facts. Doesn't matter what your conclusions are, you have to support them correctly.

General Battuta presented us with a unique perspective, there is nothing wrong to explore that perspective and see where its implications may lead -
and which "facts" are "right" and "wrong" is indeed a matter of perspective as well... and where the Shivans are concerned they are entirely a matter of premises based on assumptions.

Unless you want to imply that you "perspective" is the only one that is right - then there are no right or wrong facts, only facts that are right or wrong for a certain way of looking at things. lol.

[NGTM-1R]

Unfortunately, fictional beauty must bow to supportable fact. Present to me a factual method by which nonsentients can use tools as sophisicated as spacecraft, and we will talk.

Similarly, we have posisted the possiblity of other types of intelligence based on our observations. Posisting the possibility that the Shivans are not intelligent as we would recognize the term is terribly presumptive (humans have imagined many kinds of intelligence, natch, from the Micronoid Aggregate to ones of an individual sentience that thinks more like dogs or cats)...and totally unsupportable, considering there is no possible evidence for any kind of intelligence which we do not recognize. You are attempting to prove a negative.

I have, all along, argued that we need never know how the Shivans think or what their culture is like, or anything, to fight them or even to win. That is more or less the thesis behind warfare as the universal langauge; optimal use of force is based upon capablities and not intentions.

General Battuta presented us with a unique perspective, there is nothing wrong to explore that perspective and see where its implications may lead -
and which "facts" are "right" and "wrong" is indeed a matter of perspective as well... and where the Shivans are concerned they are entirely a matter of premises based on assumptions.

Unless you want to imply that you "perspective" is the only one that is right - then there are no right or wrong facts, only facts that are right or wrong for a certain way of looking at things. lol.

Cute argumentative wording, but not relevant in any way, shape or form to what I said. Yes, Battuta could be correct (although such an explanation does stretch suspension of disbelief further than the other two considering such things as the casualities the supernova caused the GTVA). That's not revelant to the fact it's still supportable conjecture from available evidence, and nothing you seem to espouse is.