Author Topic: Scary Warships  (Read 23985 times)

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Offline Sushi

  • Art Critic
  • 211
Technical question: does $Max Aim Update Delay work on turrets right now?

It's a good way to make dodging flak a bit more feasible, if it works. :)

I'm pretty sure it doesn't at the moment, though, meaning I probably need to fix it...

 

Offline Fury

  • The Curmudgeon
  • 213
I believe it does not work, I tried a hefty delay and it made no apparent difference.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
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Which is the result of being such a piss-poor squad leader that you can't use Wingmen right, then you deserve being in the situation where you're alone and if capital ships could actually fend themselves against small craft with some effeciency like they should, the pilot deserves his imminent death. But no, the game's not designed to be done solo every single time. I don't know if you can decipher that but I for one would actually like to use the features that came with FreeSpace, that is, using my Wingmen to help accomplish the mission, not rush in alone and save the day a-la Superman.

You're talking on a forum where the stupidity of your wingmen is considered proverbial about how they're useful. Well, yeah, sure, they're useful in the Murphy's Laws of Combat Operations "Teamwork is essential" bit sense, but you don't really want to be out there trying to give them detailed orders. The game's not designed for it. Except for one magical playthrough each of "Good Luck" and the last mission of the canon version of Silent Threat, I can't recall any time where ordering my wingmen to do anything in detail was terribly helpful.

And those times were when they were being given specific attack orders for the fighter bay with Harbingers. An Ursa wing lobbing Harbingers into fighters exiting the bay is always beautiful. Can't say much for their usefulness besides attack my target commands and sometimes "disable my target". I've tried lots of things over the course of my years-long career playing this game. Outside of "attack my target" and in rare cases "form on me" while waiting for the hostiles to come to you, giving them commands is a crapshoot. The best results I've seen for any kind of detailed manipulation of your wingmen is using "engage" in an effort to refresh their priorities to the guys closest to them too, but the "best" results have been...nearly indifferent.

This game just isn't set up to give detailed commands to your wingmen. It's not Falcon 3.0. You're usually fighting seperate actions that happen to occupy the same space and time. That's all it's equipped to do.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline nuone

  • 25
Wingmen A.I. are not the best but, in certain situations they do prove invaluable. For example, when engaging capital ships I usually place a 'protect this ship' order while I disable capital ship beam weaponry. Once they are down and assuming no imminent threat (ex. bombers) exists to my objectives, I can send them in to mop up (assuming they have the correct ordinance). They prove invaluable at distracting enemy wings while I mop up.

Point is, they have their utility. A skilled pilot (gamer) utilizes all available resources to his advantage.

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Something I did a while back (When I still had a lot of added content in my game folder) was combine the weapon ranges and velocities of Thesizzler's Fast Mod and the capital ship refire rates of the Procyon Insurgency, and I played through and beat the original FreeSpace 2 campaign with this. It was a lot harder when projectiles had ranges between three and six kilometers and had velocities of 1,200 to 2,200 m/s, and blob turrets became just as much of a weapon of fear as flak, and I was forced to use my Wingmen a lot more than I'd ever have to with Vanilla stats, and it worked wonders, even if this was Retail AI, as clumsy as they can get. With everything in the game going faster there's even less time to try to coordinate a good enough strategy on big ships that multitasking is a must, and I can pull that off with relative ease.

This might sound game-breaking but it wasn't, everything was affected, missiles, ships, weapons, everything in the Tables was altered to quicken the game pace and need for tactics. I died plenty of times because something went wrong in my planning but if I could pull it off I didn't get many casualties on my side.

And what made it a bigger challange was that Thesizzler's ship tables tripled capital ship hitpoints. FreeSpace's command system might be simple but with the right stuff it is possible to use it with greater detail and actually get results.

 
It would also be nice if capital ships were not stationary, perhaps circling each other. Take cues from World War 2 and were good.

A simple ai-chase/attack goal in FRED will do that, provided that the defender is either stationary or ordered to attack the attacker.
"If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one.  Now I am become Death, the destroyer of worlds."
-J. Robert Oppenheimer, quoting the Bhagavad Gita

 

Offline Vip

  • 28
For those who have complained about gameplay differences in WiH in comparison to FS1/FS2, I'd like to make an analogy to old BSG vs. new BSG. It's essentially same thing, modernized. Fs2_open or mediavps do not have a chance to change gameplay, but mods do. We're taking that opportunity to explore our vast options. If it's fun, it will probably find its way to WiH. If its not fun, it's not used. Same goes to capital ship AI classes, should to prove to be detrimental to gameplay, they won't be used. But if the opposite is true, it will be used in moderation in key places to keep the game enjoyable regardless of whether said capital ship(s) is in your side or not.

This. The mods allow you to try different things. Have some faith in the designers, they surely know what is fun and what is not. Using the "But original FS didn't work like that" argument is ridiculous, because it only leads to stagnation.

As for the AI, I think that this is the right approach. Giving the superior AI to all capships would require a lot of rebalancing, but I think that including it for a few caps here and there will only improve the gameplay and the BP experience.
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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This. The mods allow you to try different things. Have some faith in the designers, they surely know what is fun and what is not. Using the "But original FS didn't work like that" argument is ridiculous, because it only leads to stagnation.

It's a mod, not a TC. I explained this once already. You have to preserve the experience or you're just jamming square pegs into round holes. The argument that "FS doesn't work like that" is not only valid, but vital if one is building something that purports to be FS.

Now you're confused, and maybe Fury was too, since Woolie and I were speaking in purely hypothetical terms not related to this actual project, since the whole thread is in purely hypothetical terms not related to this project. I've actually played a number of WiH missions (several times), and they haven't gone so far as to break the setting, like Woolie seems to advocate.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Woolie Wool

  • 211
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But I disagree. To me, the FS universe as cpnsisting of events, characters, factions, designs of ships, etc.. The actual way combat works from an in-universe perspective is entirely up to interpetation (never mind the fact that the game mechanics are completely incompatible with the basic structure and behavior of the universe and thus the existence of human beings). I don't consider radically gameplay-altering things like the Fast Mod to be "not FreeSpace", they're just another interpretation of the universe.

In short, the gameplay of a FreeSpace mod is whatever the author wants it to be, as long as it has Fenrises and Myrmidons and Vasudans and the GTVA and the Great War and obeys FS story continuity (as differentiated from game mechanics; you can have 300 m/s fighters, but you cannot say the Lucifer did not toast Vasuda Prime). You could even change the genre, and if it uses the universe, it's still a FreeSpace game--see Aardwolf's RTS mod. Even the two mods I have set in the FS universe differ in how closely they mirror classic FS gameplay; Twist of Fate is much closer to the original games' gameplay than Conflict: 2395. Both are more faithful (at least in fighter behavior) than Fast Mod.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 02:23:56 pm by Woolie Wool »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
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Just to clarify, NGTM-1R, the gunships in WiH m02 did have specific disarm orders.  :p

There are a few later missions that involve gunship flight escort where the gunships do a fine job of taking out specific weapons, but I believe they may need No Dynamic Goals checked.

 

Offline Scotty

  • 1.21 gigawatts!
  • 211
  • Guns, guns, guns.
I, for one, think that mods should actively try to distance themselves from the "Alpha 1 is superman, let's not bother with wingmen or bombers or anything like that."  It's the way FS1 and 2 played.  Okay, good for them, that isn't necessarily the best way to do things.  Personally, when something like that happens, it breaks the suspension of disbelief into teeny tiny pieces.  If a fighter can single-handedly destroy cruiser sized warships, why would there be cruisers anymore?  Answer: because single fighters shouldn't be able to destroy cruisers.

Although, giving cruisers, corvettes and the like a sort of damage resistance agaisnt fighter weapons would go a long way to mitigating that.

The point is, capships should be scary to fighters, or something is wrong with said capships (or the way they're used).

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Agreed to the highest level.

 

Offline Vip

  • 28
It's a mod, not a TC. I explained this once already. You have to preserve the experience or you're just jamming square pegs into round holes. The argument that "FS doesn't work like that" is not only valid, but vital if one is building something that purports to be FS.

Obviously I don't mean that we should go all crazy and include Gudams in an FS2 mod just because it's cool. But you seem to be against any kind of a change from the FS. A Mentu should have beam cannons ? No can do, it didn't have any in vanilla FS2. An Orion should be a little more capable in terms of anti-fighter weaponry ? Nope, it should remain defenceless just like in FS2. Let's try to see if we can do some teamwork in a mod ? Don't you dare, it's Alpha 1 who has to save the day.

Nothing personal, mate. In principal, your idea is nice. We should preserve the FS spirit in mods. But some of your comments sound as if you are some kind of a religious zealot, for whom any change to the game concept will ruin the spirit of FS (this reminds me of the Fallout 3 message boards BTW. It was nice to see the outrage of veterans whenever any new info would be published). Maybe it's just the way you write things that make me feel that way, dunno.

Oh, and it's a mod. A modification, not merely a custom campaign. Thus changes are more than welcome.

I, for one, think that mods should actively try to distance themselves from the "Alpha 1 is superman, let's not bother with wingmen or bombers or anything like that."  It's the way FS1 and 2 played.  Okay, good for them, that isn't necessarily the best way to do things.  Personally, when something like that happens, it breaks the suspension of disbelief into teeny tiny pieces.  If a fighter can single-handedly destroy cruiser sized warships, why would there be cruisers anymore?  Answer: because single fighters shouldn't be able to destroy cruisers.

Although, giving cruisers, corvettes and the like a sort of damage resistance agaisnt fighter weapons would go a long way to mitigating that.

The point is, capships should be scary to fighters, or something is wrong with said capships (or the way they're used).

Agreed. The reason why Alpha 1 is so almighty is that, frankly, otherwise players wouldn't buy this game. You leave out some realistic elements for gameplay and sales reasons. The beauty of fan-made stuff is that it doesn't have to worry about selling the mod, so it can boldly go where no retail game has gone before.
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline Commander Zane

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It's a mod, not a TC. I explained this once already. You have to preserve the experience or you're just jamming square pegs into round holes. The argument that "FS doesn't work like that" is not only valid, but vital if one is building something that purports to be FS.

Obviously I don't mean that we should go all crazy and include Gudams in an FS2 mod just because it's cool. But you seem to be against any kind of a change from the FS. A Mentu should have beam cannons ? No can do, it didn't have any in vanilla FS2. An Orion should be a little more capable in terms of anti-fighter weaponry ? Nope, it should remain defenceless just like in FS2. Let's try to see if we can do some teamwork in a mod ? Don't you dare, it's Alpha 1 who has to save the day.

Nothing personal, mate. In principal, your idea is nice. We should preserve the FS spirit in mods. But some of your comments sound as if you are some kind of a religious zealot, for whom any change to the game concept will ruin the spirit of FS (this reminds me of the Fallout 3 message boards BTW. It was nice to see the outrage of veterans whenever any new info would be published). Maybe it's just the way you write things that make me feel that way, dunno.

Oh, and it's a mod. A modification, not merely a custom campaign. Thus changes are more than welcome.
The fun thing about mods is that it can make the original aspects of the game itself more fun as well.
I'll just link these instead of tagging them.
http://img118.imageshack.us/img118/8052/colossusblobswarmxe5.png
Look at the firepower the Colossus is putting out, having to actually try to evade that is fun.
http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/9990/bangj.png
Or this Deimos, that one measly Nahema wouldn't be able to do the job itself (Had I not killed it myself. :P)
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/7418/aeolusc.png
That Aeolus is taking some heat, perhaps some more support would have benefited it.
Those ships are putting out a lot more firepower than they ever could do on Retail, it plays differently, but it's a hell of a lot more fun and challenging.

 
I like it when a cruiser comes in and it's 'holy ****, a cruiser! WE NEED HELP!', but not 'holy sh- *static*'...

If you get what I mean.
Sig nuked! New one coming soon!

 

Offline NGTM-1R

  • I reject your reality and substitute my own
  • 213
  • Syndral Active. 0410.


Obviously I don't mean that we should go all crazy and include Gudams in an FS2 mod just because it's cool. But you seem to be against any kind of a change from the FS. A Mentu should have beam cannons ? No can do, it didn't have any in vanilla FS2. An Orion should be a little more capable in terms of anti-fighter weaponry ? Nope, it should remain defenceless just like in FS2. Let's try to see if we can do some teamwork in a mod ? Don't you dare, it's Alpha 1 who has to save the day.

Nothing personal, mate. In principal, your idea is nice. We should preserve the FS spirit in mods. But some of your comments sound as if you are some kind of a religious zealot, for whom any change to the game concept will ruin the spirit of FS (this reminds me of the Fallout 3 message boards BTW. It was nice to see the outrage of veterans whenever any new info would be published). Maybe it's just the way you write things that make me feel that way, dunno.

Oh, and it's a mod. A modification, not merely a custom campaign. Thus changes are more than welcome.

If you want to straight-up bull**** about what I've said, does that mean I can do so about what you've said?

I don't mind needing a couple wings to reliably take down a crusier. (Of course, that's pretty much what you need in vanilla anyways, at least if you're under any real time constraints.) I draw the line however at having to deploy a full squadron against a light warship, because that will significantly change the way the game's played. Any battle of significant size ends up becoming a BoE rapidly, and if you want to know what a campaign of BoEs gets the community thinking I suggest you check out what people had to say about 158th. (It stank.)

If you need to deploy a squadron to successfully assault a light warship, then you have to assume he's got escorts to beat off a squadron, and so you need more ships, and at this point we're talking thirty-fighter strikes to kill cruisers and it can rapidly get worse if there's more than one around. When you have thirty friendly fighters on the field, Alpha 1's actions are going to carry very little weight typically. And if there's no point in the player being there, you're already having a serious uphill struggle for a point in anyone playing the mission. If the player consistantly isn't mattering in your missions, your campaign and your mod are more or less a piece of **** by default.

This is not to say that you cannot build a mission where Alpha 1's actions will matter greatly when there are thirty friendly fighters on the field, but how many of those have there been in the community? Four or five? It's not for the faint of heart, and they're generally campaign centerpieces. Building a whole campaign of them is impractical.

So by all means, build your thing with Gundams in FS. I'll chuckle a little but what the hell. It'll probably play okay. Your superduper warships, however, won't.

I, for one, think that mods should actively try to distance themselves from the "Alpha 1 is superman, let's not bother with wingmen or bombers or anything like that."  It's the way FS1 and 2 played.  Okay, good for them, that isn't necessarily the best way to do things.  Personally, when something like that happens, it breaks the suspension of disbelief into teeny tiny pieces.  If a fighter can single-handedly destroy cruiser sized warships, why would there be cruisers anymore?

Tactical misapphrension. Submarines can reliably destroy surface ships one on one and have been able to for a long time, why do we still have surface ships? Because they serve a different role.

A fighter is a weapon of space denial. It lacks the staying power to control. You need cruisers and destroyers to take and hold space, just as you need surface ships to take and hold water, or infantry to take and hold ground. Only they can provide long-term uninterrupted presence.
"Load sabot. Target Zaku, direct front!"

A Feddie Story

 

Offline Vip

  • 28
If you want to straight-up bull**** about what I've said, does that mean I can do so about what you've said?

I don't mind needing a couple wings to reliably take down a crusier. (Of course, that's pretty much what you need in vanilla anyways, at least if you're under any real time constraints.) I draw the line however at having to deploy a full squadron against a light warship, because that will significantly change the way the game's played. Any battle of significant size ends up becoming a BoE rapidly, and if you want to know what a campaign of BoEs gets the community thinking I suggest you check out what people had to say about 158th. (It stank.)

If you need to deploy a squadron to successfully assault a light warship, then you have to assume he's got escorts to beat off a squadron, and so you need more ships, and at this point we're talking thirty-fighter strikes to kill cruisers and it can rapidly get worse if there's more than one around. When you have thirty friendly fighters on the field, Alpha 1's actions are going to carry very little weight typically. And if there's no point in the player being there, you're already having a serious uphill struggle for a point in anyone playing the mission. If the player consistantly isn't mattering in your missions, your campaign and your mod are more or less a piece of **** by default.

This is not to say that you cannot build a mission where Alpha 1's actions will matter greatly when there are thirty friendly fighters on the field, but how many of those have there been in the community? Four or five? It's not for the faint of heart, and they're generally campaign centerpieces. Building a whole campaign of them is impractical.

So by all means, build your thing with Gundams in FS. I'll chuckle a little but what the hell. It'll probably play okay. Your superduper warships, however, won't.

It shouldn't be taken to such extremes. Nobody would want to participate in a battle where you need at least an entire squadron to take out a cruiser. In general, I think that most cruisers in FS are fairly well designed (minus the Aten which was weak even in FS1 and Mentu which should have at least one beam cannon) - they can dish out some damage, but they don't stand a chance against any bigger ship and can be obliterated even by a pair of Hercs unless they have a proper escort.

Deimos and Sobek have enough firepower to threaten even a destroyer and have still enough anti-fighter weaponry to make a solo run on it a path to quick death.

My main concern are destroyers. Whether we're talking about an Orion, a Ravana or Hatshepsut, they are next to defenceless against fighters and bombers. The majority of times I was killed by a destroyer was because I accidentally ran into its main beam and got insta-killed. In essence, a wing of bombers is capable of destroying a ship the size of a small city and kill over 10,000 people. It shouldn't be that easy. I always get irritated when playing "Slaying Ravana" - 4 bombers shouldn't be capable of doing such damage to a destroyer, even in a nebula environment. For taking out destroyers you should need at least 2-3 squadrons, not a single wing plus optional escorts. That's why I suggested giving the new AI only to destroyers.
Lieutenant Commander Richard "Viper" Pred

 

Offline General Battuta

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To be fair, on Insane - even with the retail AI - Slaying Ravana is a bit of a nightmare.

 

Offline Commander Zane

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I'd assume because of the escorts.

 

Offline Aardwolf

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To be fair, on Insane - even with the retail AI - Slaying Ravana is a bit of a nightmare.

That's an understatement.