Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => The Babylon Project => Topic started by: Slasher on June 17, 2011, 01:24:43 pm
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There have been a lot of features added by the SCP to the engine since The Babylon Project's final core release in 2008. These can add all kinds of eye candy, some subtle, like muzzle flashes on all weapons, some less subtle, like big particle explosions. Effect wise, does anyone have anything specific they think would be nice to see in TBP?
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Does "beam gutting" look silly with TBP's effects?
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No idea but I've thought about trying it if I ever get the time.
I did add the ability to slice the Nova's engine section off in the next Zathras.
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I dunno about beam gutting, but I'll try it out when I get the chance. I don't think it'd look out of place with Shadow slicer beams, for instance. I'm sure we all remember what it looked like when the G'Quans were getting carved up.
I've already tested muzzle flashes out and now that I know the table formatting I should be able to do those.
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Got particle spews on capital ship debris working. In my impatience I copied over a lot of random files from FreeSpace Upgrade's MediaVPs so I'm not sure how or why it works at this point:
(http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/7553/debrisn.jpg)
It's an improvement over 3.4 standards, but I think a prettier particle spew would be better for the capital ship debris.
Also the muzzle flash experiment goes well. For nine years, the Omega's dorsal and ventral turrets have had an off-center firing point. Before this wasn't really eye-catching, but when you use the muzzle flash it all but screams that the shots are being emitted a good five meters to the left of the actual turret barrel. I edited the Omega's model file so shots now come out exactly where they're supposed to:
(http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/8421/muzzleflashtbp.jpg)
This particular effect could probably stand to be more orange, like the shots themselves, and less "sparkly" and more in line with the brief flashes actually seen on the show. But that's for later. I'm actually more happy I've corrected the Omega's firing point issue. :D
I've also been experimenting with the "beam-gutting" effects. This particular example uses a copy/paste from the FreeSpace Upgrade tables along with some of their MediaVP effects:
(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/8820/beam5.jpg)
The crew of the N'Gant had a very bad day that day. Fortunately they all made it to the lifepods. Somehow.
I've noticed while watching No Surrender, No Retreat that the Starfuries occasionally had muzzleflashes on their guns. I'm thinking it wouldn't hurt to do them for those too, plus some of the other fighters.
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Cool! i would love to see muzzle flashes and beam gutting by the way they look awesome in those shots. thats all i can think of. The main thing i think that needs addressed is the balancing of the weapons ie the Omegas phalanx's. They are next to useless, extremely short range and rarely seem to hit anything. Yet the pulse weapons in BP seem to be pretty effective.
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seems like we will probably not only see a Zathras but also a "great machine" that updates graphics... :)
I, for once, would gladly have one.
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Cool, new TBP effects :)
Try adding those whiteout explosion shaders.
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That's actually a script, not shader.
But I agree, that's a good idea.
Also, I think that this should be included into Zatharas, since it is, IIRC, an equivalent of Mediavps.
I'd also like to see hi-res bitmaps for TBP effects, new, updated explosions and better looking engines.
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Well, there is something I'd like to see, but I obviously have no idea if it's even possible within the engine.
I'd be really interested in seeing a better cloaking/decloaking effect on those Shadow battlecrabs. I'd like to see them cloak or decloak gradually instead of just popping up.
Like I said, I have no idea if it will ever be possible to do something akin to the "rippling in and out of sight" as seen on the show, but i just wanted to mention it.
The beam-gutting on that G'Quan looks absolutely fantastic, though.
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This gradual decloaking is not possible at the moment. The engine simply doesn't support it.
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Actually, it could be possible using change-ship-class SEXPs and animated maps.
Also, WCS is trying to develop cloaking, so maybe they have any sucess.
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No, it isn't possible using change-ship-class and animated maps. If you think it is, you're wrong.
And whatever WCS is developing is immaterial for us until they release it.
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If I set it up to start as an invisible model, then change it's class to a version with animated map (which would start with a full alpha frame and transition to full opaque one) and once the animation is over, changed it's class to normal ship, what would fail?
Would that not work for some reason, or just be unlike cloaking seen on B5 (and thus unsuitable for TBP)?
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You asked about new effects, so...
I think you guys could probably use some new weapon effects. I've always sort of thought that about TBP, that the whole generic-blob-of-plasma rule was in full effect and while I can't, at this moment, remember if it was that way on the show, something a little higher-res might be in order. Something similar with the beams.
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I think the weapons could be updated, looking at the example Omega pulse weapons and the hyperion plasma turrets, they are almost perfect circles, Now after re-watching the show mainly seasons 3 and 4, the ship weapons were not near circles, they were stretched out a bit, i think thats the correct term?
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I think the weapons could be updated, looking at the example Omega pulse weapons and the hyperion plasma turrets, they are almost perfect circles, Now after re-watching the show mainly seasons 3 and 4, the ship weapons were not near circles, they were stretched out a bit, i think thats the correct term?
Its called motion blur...
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I think the method Dragon mentioned for fade-in/fade-out of ships has been doable ever since alpha maps and change-ship-class SEXPs have been usable. Unfortunately I think E is also correct in that we will not get a visual very similar to what's seen in the show - I really don't know how we could pull off the "shimmering" effect. Below is a link to a video of a Shadow battlecrab doing the fade-in/fade-out method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPRKweXCCM&feature=channel_video_title
I've also experimented with the "blobs" to get a less blobby look, though I'm not entirely clear on what people are looking for so more clarification would be awesome. In the video below I've "stretched" the plasma shot effects of the Earth Alliance warships from a length of 45 to 90, effectively doubling it. I also reduced the head/tail radius from 20 to 15, though I don't think this is really noticeable. The overall effect does make it look skinnier, though to me it still looks kind of like a blob so more input is needed. The weapon graphic itself is unchanged.
[edit]The weapon graphic got changed. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBHufB8x76c&NR=1
I'm getting the impression people want straighter, "lasier" lasers? In addition to them just being prettier. :D
I'm going to upload some screencaps I took just for comparison and discussion.
Narn and Centauri heavy cruisers fighting:
(http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/5400/vlcsnap2011062010h00m10.png)
(http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/9941/vlcsnap2011062010h00m46.png)
EAS Hyperion firing plasma turrets:
(http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/9862/vlcsnap2011062010h02m45.png)
(http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/9506/vlcsnap2011062010h03m21.png)
(http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/24/vlcsnap2011062010h03m36.png)
(http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/1339/vlcsnap2011062010h03m41.png)
Agamemnon firing forward laser (note the halo on the muzzle flash effect):
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/694/vlcsnap2011062010h04m49.png)
Impact effect of laser on Agrippa:
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6813/vlcsnap2011062010h06m56.png)
Damocles firing forward heavy pulse cannons:
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4994/vlcsnap2011062010h07m43.png)
(http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/3355/vlcsnap2011062010h07m52.png)
[edit]
Update for the blob thingies - I redid the graphic for the EA's heavy plasma weapons, which applies to just about all of the Nova's weapons and the Hyperion's main guns. Link to the new video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBHufB8x76c
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TBP didn't recreated these pulses too well, appearantely.
I agree that they should be made closer to the show.
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What Dragon said.
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I think the method Dragon mentioned for fade-in/fade-out of ships has been doable ever since alpha maps and change-ship-class SEXPs have been usable. Unfortunately I think E is also correct in that we will not get a visual very similar to what's seen in the show - I really don't know how we could pull off the "shimmering" effect. Below is a link to a video of a Shadow battlecrab doing the fade-in/fade-out method:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPRKweXCCM&feature=channel_video_title
That's really cool. A vast improvement! *thumbs-up*
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Been playing with the weapon visuals again. The pulse/laser combo turrets on the Omega seem to get mentioned a lot. Here's the current, TBP 3.4 version, albeit with the corrected Omega firepoints:
(http://img863.imageshack.us/img863/4228/notawesomephlnx.jpg)
I tried to make it more bolt-like and less blob-like, though if I go to far in that direction the pulse looks like it has no depth when viewed from an oncoming/outgoing vector:
(http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/9780/awesomephlnx.jpg)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/9976/awesomephlnx3.jpg)
(http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/4563/awesomephlnx2.jpg)
Going to start paying attention to Narn and Centauri capship weapons soon.
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That looks amazing Slasher, that looks so much better! :) :)
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Definitely better.
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Before now I never realized TBP used the same graphic for all 5 Narn capship pulse weapons. The same applies to the Centauri, excepting their Ion Cannon. I decided I'd try to add a little more variety, but this obviously slows the upgrade process down. The changes to the Narn weapons are fairly subtle so below is an example screenshot of the old (current) effect, followed by screens of the new ones. Screencaps of B5 episodes reveal very little in the way of detail for Narn weapons so I took some artistic liberties, hence the squiggly pulses for the lighter Narn anti-fighter guns.
Old effect:
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/827/oldnarn1.jpg)
New effects (Narn heavy plasma cannon and anti-fighter pulse):
(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/7562/newnarn5.jpg)
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8230/newnarn4.jpg)
(http://img688.imageshack.us/img688/5903/newnarn6.jpg)
(http://img683.imageshack.us/img683/6633/newnarn7.jpg)
Also worked some more on the Omega's guns:
(http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/7392/newomega1.jpg)
(http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/3152/newomega2.jpg)
(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/5158/newomega4.jpg)
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/5466/newomega5.jpg)
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9612/newomega6.jpg)
Unfortunately the gamma of the screenshots make it look a little different than in-game, but when you see it in motion it has a cool tracer-ish effect. When the Omega is firing all the phalanx turrets it looks kind of like WW2 style AAA fire.
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I like the new effects on the whole, but not the wiggly Narn effect. It doesn't make sense from a scientific point of view and wasn't in the show either! Already the old Narn fighter projectiles looks strange to me on that account. Also I think it's okay for similar kind of turrets on capital ships of one race to always use the same projectiles. Then you would know what you are dealing with! Last not least, please remember to add the version numer of the next Zathras patch somewhere in the mod window ;)!
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Awesome awesome awesome, the Narn wiggle effect, hmmm not sure any chance of a video of these weapons being fired, the wiggle effect will prob look better in real time, rather than looking at a screen cap. Also i just wanna see those omega turrets let rip! ;)
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Old Centauri effect:
(http://img854.imageshack.us/img854/2181/primusold1.jpg)
Unlike with the Narns, I got some good screencaps of the Primus' main guns firing:
(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/6252/primussc1.jpg)
(http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3756/primussc2.jpg)
I did unique muzzle flashes for the big and small pulses, plus fixed the Primus' firing points so the blasts don't come out of thin air...er, vacuum!
(http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/696/primusnew1.jpg)
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/2558/primusnew2.jpg)
(http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/5857/primusnew3.jpg)
Interestingly, several TBP ships seem to have this off-center firing point problem. I've noticed it with the EA Hyperion/Midwinter and the CR Vorchan so far, and there are probably others. It was easy enough to overlook before, but when you add in muzzle flashes it's glaringly obvious the blasts are coming out several meters away from the tip of the turret barrels. It can take a while to correct, but necessary if effects are going to be upgraded.
Oh! And the Narn effect in the previous post is tentative (like all the new effects, really). I've never done this before so I'm learning as I go.
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Oh! And the Narn effect in the previous post is tentative (like all the new effects, really). I've never done this before so I'm learning as I go.
Just make the new effects as close as to what is shown in the show. Everything else, regardless how cool ;), just shouldn't be considered...
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I've definitely been perusing B5 episodes for source material, but in places where there's no (or poor) info I'm kinda left to my own devices. We don't know what the Midwinter's turrets look like firing, for example, so it's a game of fill-in-the-blanks.
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We don't know what the Midwinter's turrets look like firing, for example, so it's a game of fill-in-the-blanks.
In that case I would use examples from the most similar known ship, because technology is transfered from one ship class to the other with only few big changes, which sometimes I would even blame on different clueless CGI teams and not actual intent. I really loved about the B5 universe that there was a logic behind most of the technical stuff, like that each race had it's own typical particles and beams and they only mixed them up when buying from one another, e.g. the Narn and EA beams looking the same or the Drakh and EA Shadow cruiser beams.
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For the Midwinters weapons i rewatched severed dreams and managed to get some shots of the midwinters weapons., every weapon pulse in the shots comes from the midwinter(clarkstown), hope these help.
Edit, i think these are the 4 forward main guns firing, as thats were they seem to be coming from. other than that i would guess that the rest of the weapons would be similiar to the Hyperion, except with beam turrets. I'd say the main ship to take a bit of artistic license on would be the nova, as i don't think that ship has ever been seen firing its weapons, apart from the beam error(or those could have been weapons bought from the narn) on the In the beginning film.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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this is really really neat...
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So, I'm not familiar with TBP at all (mod or the show).. but since I've been working with Slasher a bit on another project, I figured I'd take a look around. Just to satisfy my curiosity, does anyone have a link to the kind of 'gradual cloaking' effect that is in the show? I can't seem to comprehend what you are talking about with that.
Also, some of these effects are really stellar. Nice work. :yes:
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Iz's like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8WKvyOT38) and this from 2:50 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAsk3ay3e98&feature=related).
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The gradual cloaking effect in the show is the Shadows way of coming in and out of hyperspace. All the other races form the normal Jump point cone effect, were as the Shadows "phase" into Hyperspace producing a similiar effect to star treks cloaking, but Angelus clips show it better than i can explain
also check this clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpg-N_Pp-g
its shows the shadow fleet de-phase cloaking out of hyperspace.
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IMHO, Centauri effect is too red, I think that it should be orange-red (as seen on screencap).
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:nervous:
So why can't that be done with change-ship-class to one with an animated cloaking texture.. (as I've demonstrated over in FS Modding) followed by a ship-vanish or warp with no effect?
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I tried experimenting with that a little bit last month; details are at the end of the first page of this thread. Here's the link to the video again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEPRKweXCCM&feature=channel_video_title
It would probably be a little better if I'd used play-sound-from-file to add the Shadow scream during the fade-in/out.
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Those weapon effects looks amazing.
The shadow fade-in/fade-out looks better than it currently does in TBP, it is bit fast and it lacks the shimmering wich probebly is dificult to manage with the game engine.
Keep up the good work, looking forward to get these in the game.
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I justed checked the scripting API and I think that the shadow fade-out/in effect can be scripted to play automatically when a shadow ship jumps in or out. Using texture replacement the animated texture would be set and either replaced by the default texture when the animation has been played once or the ship would be removed from the mission when it is warping out. This way even old missions would benefit from the script as no additional mission setup would be required if it works the way I imagine it. :nod:
I'd like to try it but I'm no texture artist so I'd need some animated texture to have a starting point.
So, what do you think?
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I justed checked the scripting API and I think that the shadow fade-out/in effect can be scripted to play automatically when a shadow ship jumps in or out.
If something like this is possible for the warp effect, may I kindly ask again if something can be done about the normal effect which isn't like in the show too? I mean the 2D effect is much too flat and the 3D effect is too long with the flash in the middle and not at the end of the cone where it belongs. Something right between would be the optimal solution!
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That effect has nothing to do with scripting as the 2D Warp effect is a simple bitmap and the 3D warp effect is (AFAIK) a special model with the right textures. If the effect should be changed then these files have to be changed.
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:nervous:
I could probably make an animated texture set given that I had original textures to work with...
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One thing I had hoped to change back when I was an active member of the group, was to change the warping speeds for all craft to the same figures so that ships such as fighters and destroyers could all warp in and out as a group. Unfortunately, to achieve the desired visual effect, it would need an SCP upgrade to arrival/departure cues so that we could disable the rendering of the jump point while preserving the speed+decel/accel associated with jumping. That way, for the destroyer+fighters arrival or departure scenario, the main vortex would only be rendered for the destroyer, while the fighters would continue to cruise alongside the capital ship rather than stopping dead. It would probably also require some reworking of the existing missions for Raider Wars and virtually all other campaigns so that any ships jumping would arrive at their intended position rather than overshooting.
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So what you want is a flag like the existing no warp effect one but only kills the effect not the rest of the warp. Sounds doable.
One thing before all these effects get a bit out of hand. Remember there is a bitmap limit. So when possible it's best to keep the effects as small as possible and usable by as many things as possible. I've been redoing all the lods on the EA ships to free up a bunch of slots but it will be awhile before I get to other races.
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So what you want is a flag like the existing no warp effect one but only kills the effect not the rest of the warp. Sounds doable.
One thing before all these effects get a bit out of hand. Remember there is a bitmap limit. So when possible it's best to keep the effects as small as possible and usable by as many things as possible. I've been redoing all the lods on the EA ships to free up a bunch of slots but it will be awhile before I get to other races.
This is good since it will cut down on the amount of unique effects I have to do and speed things up.
For the Midwinters weapons i rewatched severed dreams and managed to get some shots of the midwinters weapons., every weapon pulse in the shots comes from the midwinter(clarkstown), hope these help.
Thanks for the screencaps. I started working on the Midwinter's main gun; here's the first of what will probably be several versions of the effect:
(http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/5343/midwinter.jpg)
IMHO, Centauri effect is too red, I think that it should be orange-red (as seen on screencap).
Adjusted the hue settings to make it a little more orange so hopefully it's more in-between now. Screenshots had their contrast settings edited so they look more like what I see in-game, since otherwise they look very bright and kind of washed out:
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/4954/newprimus1.jpg)
Also changed the Omega's phalanx turret effect...again. If anyone has any "decent" screencaps of the effect from the show, please do share. All I can get from my screencaps are somewhat blurry yellowish streaks.
(http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3669/newphlnx3.jpg)
(http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/3599/newphlnx6.jpg)
:nervous:
I could probably make an animated texture set given that I had original textures to work with...
The Shadow ships actually use an animated texture for their normal hull to simulate the organic armor look. Hypothetically speaking, would you need all the frames from the effect or just one to do a phase-in/phase-out set?
Still trying to hone in on a summer release for this stuff. Comments are appreciated. :)
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I hope this will help you, but don't expect to much. These impulses are moving too fast for getting decent screencaps. Seems the all Omega turrets have one and the same weapons effect... and thunderbolt also.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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I justed checked the scripting API and I think that the shadow fade-out/in effect can be scripted to play automatically when a shadow ship jumps in or out. Using texture replacement the animated texture would be set and either replaced by the default texture when the animation has been played once or the ship would be removed from the mission when it is warping out. This way even old missions would benefit from the script as no additional mission setup would be required if it works the way I imagine it. :nod:
I'd like to try it but I'm no texture artist so I'd need some animated texture to have a starting point.
So, what do you think?
I'd rather see this fixed in code to be honest. It would have the same effect of working with old missions as only the tables would need changing.
I vaguely remember adding a second TBP warpout type specifically with the Shadows in mind but I never hooked it up to anything so it just did the same as the Shadows in TBP have always done.
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Den5 once made special TBP build which had a "shadow" type warpout and warpin effects, along with a couple of other interesting features.
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Seems the all Omega turrets have one and the same weapons effect... and thunderbolt also.
This makes sense from a technical point of view. The EA would build their most powerful weapons into both!
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I hope this will help you, but don't expect to much. These impulses are moving too fast for getting decent screencaps. Seems the all Omega turrets have one and the same weapons effect... and thunderbolt also.
Thanks for these screencaps. These are way higher resolution than what I was using (because I've been too lazy to pull my Season 4 DVDs out of storage). Latest version of the Omega's guns:
(http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3152/newomega2.jpg)
(http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/814/newomega3.jpg)
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3730/newomega7.jpg)
The Omega's rear pulse guns use the same effect, albeit smaller. By extension, due to the way the ships are tabled, the Midwinter cruiser's non-foward gun/non-laser turrets use the same effect as the Omega's rear guns.
This makes sense from a technical point of view. The EA would build their most powerful weapons into both!
Not counting the Omega-X, of course. :D
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Off-topic
Den5 once made special TBP build which had a "shadow" type warpout and warpin effects, along with a couple of other interesting features.
It's was made by Asprin and Mihard from OpenSpace Softworks team. "Shadow" type is based on the "Hyperspace" warpin\ out effect, but it still needs refinement.
Was added flash weapon effect. This used single texture, not the animation as in 3.6.12 Media.
(http://den5.pochta.ru/flash.jpg)
Some features in this old video: http://den5.pochta.ru/hyperspacetest.avi (http://den5.pochta.ru/hyperspacetest.avi)
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I really love all the work in here...
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I was going to try some sort of cloaking effect for the Shadow guys.. but with the cloaking going into the code itself.. it made my way of doing it totally moot... But that's a good thing, especially since it seems you can have ships arrive cloaked!
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The people from the "Jouney to Hiigara" made some nice animated texture change (okay I made that term up, but it seems to fit) for the beast infection. Maybe their method might also help for the Shadows phasing in and out of Hyperspace?
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73529.msg1490924#msg1490924
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=73529.msg1499078#msg1499078
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Well the Drazi capship weapons really needed some attention so they got it. My low resolution screencaps leave a lot to be desired but they definitely imply a greenish colored pulse weapon and a more orangish laser as opposed to what we had in 3.4.
Screencaps from "Movements of Light and Shadow":
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/9496/drazicap1.jpg)
(http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/724/drazicap2.jpg)
Old effect:
(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/4035/draziold1.jpg)
New effect:
(http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/7338/drazinew1.jpg)
(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/4732/drazinew2.jpg)
(http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1787/drazinew3.jpg)
(http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/1420/drazinew4.jpg)
If anyone knows of any episodes where the Brakiri fire a non beam weapon, please point it out to me.
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I don't recall the Brakiri ships doing much firing at all.
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I'd take this with a fistful of salt, but from what I remember, Aviokis were never seen in show firing at all, and in one game mod that had them used in combat, the ships fired blue particle beams and pulse cannons.
On a trailer for TBP's Earth-Brakiri War however, their weapons were red instead.
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Well the Drazi capship weapons really needed some attention so they got it.
I remember me discussing with IPAndrews and I think Orph about this. That was before I fredded my first campaign :-)
I was banned for a week... FINALLY SOME REAL DRAZI WEAPONS!
Still, I'd prefer yellow shots for the pluses guns as well.
These shots are clearly yellow (with a tint of white) for me when I watch that episode :-)
On a trailer for TBP's Earth-Brakiri War however, their weapons were red instead.
They are in game (and use the EA weapons). If you change their beams, I'd really like you to make them yellow as well.
"Green" is strong, Minbari/Vorlon style. Blue beams are not really present in the show. Yellow seems a good choice, for it is used by the weaker Drazi a lot and the League shares weapons.
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Well the Drazi capship weapons really needed some attention so they got it.
I remember me discussing with IPAndrews and I think Orph about this. That was before I fredded my first campaign :-)
I was banned for a week...
What. :blah:
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Regarding weapon projectiles and colors of weapons not shown in the show, like the Brakiri. As long as FI was making the effects, I think I noticed a connection between races and colors of their weapons. Like Minbari green for capital ships and fighters. Centauri yellow for capital ships and fighters, beams not seen. EA and Narn red or blue for fighters and capital ships. Streib and Drakh dark blue. So one has to extrapolate from what was shown.
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Still, I'd prefer yellow shots for the pluses guns as well.
These shots are clearly yellow (with a tint of white) for me when I watch that episode :-)
"Fall of Centauri Prime" also shows the Drazi firing their pulse guns, and it might be my monitor but the effect still looks green. Can anyone find/acquire better caps?
(http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/4903/drazicap3.jpg)
On a trailer for TBP's Earth-Brakiri War however, their weapons were red instead.
They are in game (and use the EA weapons). If you change their beams, I'd really like you to make them yellow as well.
"Green" is strong, Minbari/Vorlon style. Blue beams are not really present in the show. Yellow seems a good choice, for it is used by the weaker Drazi a lot and the League shares weapons.
I think yellow is a good idea for the Brakiri beams too, given an apparent dearth of source material. I figure anything is better than Earth/Narn's signature red lasers. Wow, do the brave Brakiri not even fire a single shot during the show???
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Wow, do the brave Brakiri not even fire a single shot during the show???
I don't believe they do. I looked at every battle scene I could find with Aviokis and they're just...there.
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"Fall of Centauri Prime" also shows the Drazi firing their pulse guns, and it might be my monitor but the effect still looks green. Can anyone find/acquire better caps?
Isn't that fifth season after FI was out? I wouldn't really rely on anything done by ND, remember the Centauri Primus flying backwards in Sleeping in Light? They surely hardly knew what they were doing.
They are in game (and use the EA weapons). If you change their beams, I'd really like you to make them yellow as well.
"Green" is strong, Minbari/Vorlon style. Blue beams are not really present in the show. Yellow seems a good choice, for it is used by the weaker Drazi a lot and the League shares weapons.
I agree with the above. Green is Minbari/Vorlon strong. Violet/blue is Shadow/Drakh/Streib strong. Yellow is League/Centauri technological middle ground. Red is EA and Narn technological low end.
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Those new Drazi guns look good... and if I recall it correctly they are very much in line with Drazi fighter gun (which is yellow)
I remember me discussing with IPAndrews and I think Orph about this. That was before I fredded my first campaign :-)
I was banned for a week...
I don't recall that conversation... and I never was in a position to ban people...
But this is not the time and place to discuss this ---
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If I remember correctly both the Drazi and Brakiri bought and sold weapons and ships from/to whoever they could. It's highly likely they fired several types/colors of weapons.
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"Fall of Centauri Prime" also shows the Drazi firing their pulse guns, and it might be my monitor but the effect still looks green. Can anyone find/acquire better caps?
It is better? Also found Aviokis firing.
[attachment deleted by ninja]
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EA-like red beams and nondescript white blobs. Similar to what we have in TBP (though TBP blobs are yellow), but still worth improving.
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OK i re watched that ep online and their is definitely a hint of green in the Drazi pulse weapons. They are 100% greeny/yellow to me. Also the beam weapons are very yellow, almost Vasudan yellow to me, not the orange colour they are at the mo.
I remember me discussing with IPAndrews and I think Orph about this. That was before I fredded my first campaign :-)
I was banned for a week...
Your joking, you got banned for suggesting changes to make the weapons more screen correct?
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He was talking to IPA, so I guess that could happen, given how he reacted to people taking assets from TBP.
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Your joking, you got banned for suggesting changes to make the weapons more screen correct?
I am already regreting that I mentioned this :-( The answer is yes. And it is past. Me and FUBAR are the project leaders / carekeepers of TBP now and that's the end of the story.
BACK TO TOPIC, let's discuss these cool new effects and ships.
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That's what ussualy happens when a popular thread is going without new screens/progress updates for a while. :)
As for Drazi, I prefer a more yellow-ish pulse gun, though that's only my personal preference, as I haven't seen the show (I plan to do that though, but I never got around to it).
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Perhaps we could use them both. The yellow pulse for the Firehawks and the green pulse for the Sunhawks.
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Good idea. I forgot that as of Zatharas, there are two.
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Ah there we go.
I took some (bad quality I'm afraid - the better quality ones that I_E_Maverick posted, are no longer there) screencaps of the white brakiri blobs a long time ago and posted them here http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=34453.msg712750#msg712750
Actually I was afraid it happened back before TBP moved to HLP, but luckily it wasn't THAT far back.
For those who want to see it for themselfs, the screens were taken from "Into the Fire" just after the Xill (I think it's a Xill... the Vree saucer) blasts some fighters after Lyta commented on the Shadows being pissed (Good morning gentlemen, this is your wakeup call!).
How nice of ImageShack to keep pictures for six years (if I had waited till tomorrow it would even be the exact 6th anniversary of that linked post :lol: )
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Thanks for the source material, den5 and Nobert among others. I'm glad you guys have keen eyes because I probably never would have caught that stuff.
Since the last update I've mainly adjusted the brightness of effects I've already worked on. I'm going to refocus on those now, but over the interlude I experimented with some of the other stuff the SCP team has cranked out.
We can now pull off a believable Shadow fade effect thanks to Valathil's coding efforts. Additional thanks goes to The E for helping to get this running in TBP. Side note: ignore the old fade-in effect and me flying into the beam, the new effect only happens just before the video ends: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcwoMS4AcoE
emi_100 was working on normal maps (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=66282.0) for TBP ships but there haven't been updates on that front for quite some time. :( I experimented with it over the last couple of days. I tried working with the Omega's habitation section since that seemed like an easy one (heh). This is my first try at it so forgive me if it doesn't look very professional. Yes, I'm aware there's a weird seam going down the front due to the way it got UV mapped. Hopefully that's not too hard to fix. :confused:
Old version (pic from earlier in the thread):
(http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/3730/newomega7.jpg)
New version:
(http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/8618/bumpmaptest.jpg)
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/6559/bumpmaptest23.jpg)
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That shadow effect is a massive improvement, though I think that it could stand to be a bit quicker.
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Maybe you could tyr contacting Emi100 about normal maps. Maybe he still has them.
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*coughdontwasteyourtimewiththatomegatherearethingsinprogrescough*
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That shadow effect is a massive improvement, though I think that it could stand to be a bit quicker.
I haven't experimented with the effect a whole lot, but in its current form it can be de/activated via SEXP making this very convenient to configure, down to the length of time the effect takes to do its magic.
*coughdontwasteyourtimewiththatomegatherearethingsinprogrescough*
:eek: ...seems like somebody beat me to the punch! If it's who I suspect, then he's far more qualified to do this kind of thing than I am anyway. :D
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A question about the new Shadows decloaking effect. Once this is finished, will it automatically work for all old missions or does it needs to be activated for each event?
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That nebula in front of the Omega in the last screenshot looks like a massive muzzle flash coming out of the big red front cannon (i.e. the Hangar) :lol:
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A question about the new Shadows decloaking effect. Once this is finished, will it automatically work for all old missions or does it needs to be activated for each event?
The way these effects work unfortunately means that old missions will have to be redone to have them. They're triggered via sexp.
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I'd update mine :)
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The way these effects work unfortunately means that old missions will have to be redone to have them. They're triggered via sexp.
Okay, if there is an explanation somewhere on what has to be changed, I will update my patch for MAGs great Star Fury missions...
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Okay, first, you need to either update the main shaders to include these effects, or delete them altogether (thus causing the engine to fall back onto the built-in default shaders). Second would be to enable them using post_processing.tbl (or delete the existing one to use the built-in default), see this (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Post_processing.tbl#.23Ship_Effects) for details.
Now, to use these effects in a mission, the following things need to be done:
(I am assuming for the purposes of this tutorial that you have a mission where a shadow ship decloaks, strikes, and cloaks again).
1. Place the shadow ship. Open the ships editor, and mark the "Cloaked" checkbox in the Misc dialogue.
2. Open the events editor. Create an event using the ship-effect sexp, and select "Decloak" as the effect, with a duration of your liking.
3. To cloak a ship again, use the ship-effect sexp once more, only this time using the "Cloak" effect.
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Okay, first, you need to either update the main shaders to include these effects, or delete them altogether (thus causing the engine to fall back onto the built-in default shaders). Second would be to enable them using post_processing.tbl (or delete the existing one to use the built-in default), see this (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Post_processing.tbl#.23Ship_Effects) for details.
Isn't this going to end up in the next release of Zathras? I won't tinker with it myself...
2. Open the events editor. Create an event using the ship-effect sexp, and select "Decloak" as the effect, with a duration of your liking.
3. To cloak a ship again, use the ship-effect sexp once more, only this time using the "Cloak" effect.
How is the decloaking and cloaking of Shadow ships done right now? And what would happen if someone plays the changed missions with a setup using only the old effects?
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I think (with the caveat that I haven't looked at the mission files in question) that Shadow ships are being warped in without a warp effect.
One thing to know about this cloaking effect is that it does not rely on external effect files, it's all done using the shader built into the engine. If someone plays an altered mission with a build that does not support these effects (basically anything older than a nightly build revision 75xx, I think), they'll get an "unknown sexp" parsing error when trying to load that mission.
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Maybe you could tyr contacting Emi100 about normal maps. Maybe he still has them.
emi100 said he would look for them, but that was a while ago. Still holding out hope though. Since I've been working on Brakiri weapons I tried to do a bump map for the Avioki:
(http://img828.imageshack.us/img828/1542/aviokibump.jpg)
Interesting note about the Avioki. In TBP it uses mostly Narn weaponry. This still works since Narn pulse weapons are seen to be fairly indistinct white blurs in the show (I haven't finished them for the upgrade though). Nonetheless, TBP provides the Brakiri with their own proprietary pulse weapons anyways which are used mostly on the light Tashkat frigate. I went ahead and made them mostly indistinct white blurs too (well, there's a little detail there, but hard to see in these shots), but I might give them a very faint orange glow in the table file later to identify them as distinct weapons.
(http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/9039/brak1l.jpg)
(http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/2275/brak2.jpg)
I made the Drazi beam more yellow and used the tile/translation features in the table file so it now appears animated, or as animated as a beam weapon can look.
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/5228/newbeem1.jpg)
(http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/8991/newbeem2.jpg)
Finally, I added the slash/penetration effects to some of the other beam weapons (Centauri, EA, Whitestar). I tried to write an infinity symbol on the back of Drakh cruiser:
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/6664/infinityyi.jpg)
I'm using a smaller penetration effect for the younger races than what was seen for the Shadows in one of the earlier videos.
(http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/9110/acheron6.jpg)
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Very cool effects :)! So when can we expect them and in what form? Will Zathras 3.0 include all of this?
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really good
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Very cool effects :)! So when can we expect them and in what form? Will Zathras 3.0 include all of this?
I don't know what FUBAR's timetable on Zathras 3.0 is like, so it's hard to say. More advanced effects like the Shadow fade-in/out, beam penetration/damage marking, and some particle stuff aren't available using the vanilla 3.6.12 executables so including those without a full fledged Zathras 3.0 release is trickier and I'm open to suggestions.
The files that update only pulse/laser graphics could easily be released as soon as they're done, since they are completely compatible with Zathras without an independent executable download. They utilize features that are already available in 3.6.12 (muzzle flashes, beam tiling, maybe others I'm forgetting).
As for when they're done I can't say for certain. Some effects I think almost suffice the way they are, possibly only requiring a muzzle flash table entry/graphics for completeness. On the other hand, many other effects still require actual attention/creation. TBP has a lot of entries in the weapons.tbl, partly owing to the number of races represented in-game and the different weapons at their disposal. Granted, I'm obviously reusing effects wherever possible.
I'm thinking some kind of beta release in October though, just to bug hunt and get feedback from the real deal as opposed to static screenshots.
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Zathras Updates depend on available community content and SCPbuilds.
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I would like to see the TV Serie's lens flare (lightwave) effect on suns.. and if is possible when jump points are opened. That would help feel the b5's atmosphere on gameplay and be awesome.
(http://www.kxcad.net/LightWave/LightWave_3D_9/layout/light_properties/light_properties_panel/lens_flares/flare_001sm.png)
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I have textures files of the Lightwave's lensflare. If anyone know more about using them on FS2 than THIS (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Stars.tbl) wiki article, please contac me.
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"B5 style" lens flare would be a great homage to the show. It looks like you've actually got it in-game already. Is it available for download anywhere?
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No yet, i will pack it and I send you the link ASAP if you want to test it.
The slash/penetration effects look awasome, and the correction/add of the weapons fx too. Can i donwload it anywhere?
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Couple questions:
Does anyone have good caps of the Narn cruiser firing its dorsal turret at the beginning of Acts of Sacrifice? All I can see are somewhat indiscriminate blurs. Not impossible to recreate, but frankly that low level of resolution works better in a TV show where you see it for a few seconds as opposed to a game where you might see it all the time.
Also, do we ever hear the Brakiri weapons firing? I've noticed during testing that the sound effect for the Brakiri non-beam weaponry is really faint so I'm looking to either match up a sound effect we already heavy to them, or maybe capture one from the show itself.
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in the show, we NEVER SEE OR HEAR BRAKIRI WEAPONS.
In the large battle at the end of season three, there are a lot of yellow/white shots flying around but we never see a ship fire, therefore they could all have been fired from the Drazi or other vessels as well. I'd still say yellow is a good color for the Brakiri
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There you are wrong. While I have yet to see any pictures that convince me that the Brakiri fire orange beams (supposedly in ACTA), you can clearly see an Avioki fire white blobs with a bit of pink in them, including muzzleflashes, in "Into the fire".
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=34453.msg712750#msg712750
While the poor-quality screenshots I made years ago leave a little room for doubt wether the shots really come from the Avioki, watching the scene in the TV series itself doesn't.
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There's room for compromise on the issue of the Brakiri pule weapons while still remaining faithful to what little we've seen of them. All but two of the Avioki's pulse weapon emplacements are actually defined as Narn weapons in the table file, and there are two types of Brakiri capital ship pulse weapons available in the table files. Theoretically, we could do both yellow and white.
Here's the other problem: we don't really have any good shots of Narn pulse weapons. I think the only time they're seen firing is during the opening of Acts of Sacrifice and the ISN feed in And Now For A Word.
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I still don't look that that image as evidence... whatever, I am not the person deciding :-) Public development is personal development.
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There you are wrong. While I have yet to see any pictures that convince me that the Brakiri fire orange beams (supposedly in ACTA), you can clearly see an Avioki fire white blobs with a bit of pink in them, including muzzleflashes, in "Into the fire".
There's more than 5 years between those two episodes. It's easily possible that the Avioki started with one and was upgraded to the other during that time.
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I'd like to see 3d-Cockpit.
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Made a new version of the Vree bolt weapon with muzzle flash. The old one was a nice blob that thirty seconds in the table could probably have fixed, but since I had to break open GIMP for the muzzle flash graphics anyway I figured I would do a complete overhaul.
(http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/5332/vree2.jpg)
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Now if only we could get the AI to properly use the actual Vree way of fighting (massive barrage from the bottom middle of the ship)...
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Very good as always Slasher! keep the hard work!
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Yeah, I noticed in-game the bottom turret rarely ever fired for some reason. For the test mission I had to give the saucer a bunch of additional bolt cannons which was seriously annoying because the Xill has like 20+ of them. Oddly, under default configurations, the side turret "spines" are equipped with EA pulse weapons.
There was some discussion in the Updated Omega thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=78416.msg1601118#new) about the EA laser effects. I was thinking of reducing the prominence of the white "core" of the beam (probably the uppermost layer) so it was redder. Shots from Seasons 2, 3, and 4 respectively hopefully illustrate what I'm talking about:
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/694/vlcsnap2011062010h04m49.th.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/600/vlcsnap2011062010h04m49.png/)
(http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/6813/vlcsnap2011062010h06m56.th.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/3/vlcsnap2011062010h06m56.png/)
(http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4994/vlcsnap2011062010h07m43.th.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/vlcsnap2011062010h07m43.png/)
A comparison shot using the current TBP 3.4 effect is available in the Updated Omega thread for anyone curious. In any event, it's just a tentative idea that can always be dropped if there's widespread opposition or something.
Another issue brought up very recently were burn/damage decals for pulse weapons were possible. According to the wiki (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapons.tbl#.24decal:) they were possible at one point but the code has apparently been removed. Forum searches have revealed that the decal code caused problems with the game that were unsolvable at the time, but if TBP is still running if/when damage decals are reimplemented we can certainly use it.
Progress is continuing and I can now say that a test release of weapon upgrade effects will be out early summer if not before.
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I was thinking of reducing the prominence of the white "core" of the beam (probably the uppermost layer) so it was redder.
That sounds like a good plan! I don't know how this is handled in TBP, but I'm pretty sure the red EA and Narn beams in the show were exactly the same, because they stated that the EA bought weapons from the Narn during the Earth-Minbari war.
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Another issue brought up very recently were burn/damage decals for pulse weapons were possible. According to the wiki they were possible at one point but the code has apparently been removed. Forum searches have revealed that the decal code caused problems with the game that were unsolvable at the time, but if TBP is still running if/when damage decals are reimplemented we can certainly use it.
You have my total support on this feature, if is anything i can do let me know
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Last month I actually tried a couple of methods of simulating "damage glows" on ships and was so close to pulling it off. Unfortunately there are some limitations keeping me from getting there.
1.) The first thing I did was edit the ship tables so that the particle spews last longer and had zero velocity. This way the little "smoke trails" were limited to being glowing dots at the point of weapon impact. I changed the graphic so there wasn't any of the grey smoke, just a glowing animation given a relatively long (~8-30 second) lifetime in the table file. This actually looked pretty decent for fighter guns. Here are some examples of the aftermath of one of my strafing runs on an Omega's engine block and the nameplate section:
(http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2550/hitglow4.jpg)
(http://img805.imageshack.us/img805/5936/hitglow3.jpg)
(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/5991/hitglow2.jpg)
(http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/2816/hitglow1.jpg)
Unfortunately, giving the particles zero velocity means they hang in space at the point of impact too. This is fine for a totally static space station, but as soon as the target starts to move those hit graphics just stay there. The zero velocity impact spews also didn't stick to rotating subobjects so the Omega's habitation section left a nice circular trail of glows as it spun.
2.) So, disappointed, I tried to edit the weapon hit effects themselves. Impact animations can be specified per individual weapon now thanks to code modifications and this is done via the weapons tables. I figured I would just use an existing hit animation and edit the .eff file so it had a really long duration (10-20 seconds). This actually looked really faithful to the show's damage effects! Unfortunately it suffered from the same problem as the hit effects from pulse weapons didn't follow a moving target and just stayed, and faded, at the point of impact, leaving the animation essentially floating in empty space. There might be a way of gimmicking the tables to make this work; I noticed that the new beam slash effects seem to follow a moving target so there must be a way to get the impact effects from every type of weapon to follow the ship they hit...
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Gonna do a quick screenshot dump since it'll be awhile before there's another update.
New Narn anti-fighter pulse weapon. Got rid of the squiggly line from before. The final effect won't change much from this incarnation, if at all.
(http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/7194/narn3.jpg)
Finally changed the Earth Alliance's Minbari War-era weapons. No more ovoid blobs or "energy sperms" hopefully...
(http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1927/hvypulse2.jpg)
(http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/7590/medpulse1.jpg)
Fighters can have different countermeasures now! While the actual gameplay effect of the countermeasure will remain unchanged from TBP 3.4b for balance reasons, the actual graphic will vary from species to species now. The Earthers will no longer use the same exact looking countermeasure that the Minbari do, which also happens to be the same looking one the Dilgar use, etc. Here's some pictures of an EA fighter spamming flares:
(http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/280/flare2.jpg)
(http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/8378/flare1t.jpg)
Beginning of a Centauri bombardment. The little ruby orange glows with the long trails are the Palos missiles that the Vorchan and Secondus are armed with. They originally lacked the glow and the trail they left was a translucent white that I felt had to be changed. The adjustments make them just as visible as before so there should be no balance issues.
(http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/8224/bombard3.jpg)
(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/8171/bombard1.jpg)
Something else the Secondus can do:
(http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/1429/massdrvr4.jpg)
(http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/5149/massdrvr2.jpg)
I tried to get the asteroid to spin just like in the show but my understanding is this is impossible without changing the mass driver to a secondary weapon, which it really should have been in the first place. Changing it to a secondary weapon could ruin backwards compatibility with any mission that customizes the Secondus' weapons, unfortunately. FRED2 cannot override primary/secondary weapon emplacements on ships, so going from one to the other could break a mission in this case. I tried to make up for it by giving the asteroid model an animated glow map and obviously the particle spews, the latter of which needs some fine tuning to make it look less like the comet from the opening of Deep Space Nine episodes.
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Its perfect.
Currently occupied with my thesis but I certainly need to build something again for TBP...
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Its perfect.
Currently occupied with my thesis but I certainly need to build something again for TBP...
Word.
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FUBAR and I talked a lot about a TBP_mediavps mod on top of Zathras. Releasing all this awesome stuff like that seems the best way to me.
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I think that is going to add a lot of unnecessary complexity. Why not just add the stuff to Zathras and be done with it? If there is a chance of breaking existing missions, then either change it not to or don't release it in official or semi-official manner. Public separate and unofficial download issued by the author should be enough in that case.
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We thought (and still think if I am not mistaken, need to PM him again) that new visuals should always be optional.
However, the plan was to release an updated version (also on DVD) once the Fortune Hunters Voice Acting project is done, that comes with newest Zathras and Visual Patch active by default and should include only a selected few campaigns that are 100% compatible and voice acted.
the issue is that the FHVAP has been totally dead the last two months and I am still trying to reestablish contact with my two previously active main char actors.
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new visuals should always be optional.
Sense this does not make.
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I does, if they are more hardware intensive or change mission balance (apart from visibility I can't really imagine visuals having an impact here). Otherwise though I have to agree with Fury.
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Sometimes, you simply want to get the original experience. Playing unmodified FS2 for example. Or look at the recent remakes of older games, most of them come with a "original mode". Halo Anniversary, the Monkey Island games, ... , it is about "how did that look like back in the day?"
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Then they can play TBP without Zathras, can't they? I still think it makes only unnecessary complexity if there is the original TBP, then there is Zathras and on top of that yet another mod. The only reason for a separate mod pack would be to store maps or effects that are higher that have higher horizontal or vertical resolution than 2048.
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Sometimes, you simply want to get the original experience. Playing unmodified FS2 for example. Or look at the recent remakes of older games, most of them come with a "original mode". Halo Anniversary, the Monkey Island games, ... , it is about "how did that look like back in the day?"
To that I can only say, I have never felt the urge to play the original FS1, ever since FSPort was released and since I downloaded FSO I havn't touched the original FS2.exe even once.
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I still think it makes only unnecessary complexity if there is the original TBP, then there is Zathras and on top of that yet another mod.
I agree! There are already a lot of graphical options available in the launcher. So if these enhancements should be optional, this is the place where they need to got. Also again I urge to include OAL and compatible engine builds with the next Zathras version!
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i would like to see a starfury cockpit :)
Mercer
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i would like to see a starfury cockpit :)
Mercer
That's on my to-do list. I was playing around with a crude placeholder, and there are some z-buffer issues (which can be sorted out). It would be even more awesome, if someone would show me how to properly use the render-to-texture script to put the radar on a map of the cockpit model.
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and I'm open to suggestions.
I would like to see a whole new TBP based on the latest fso, not just added on to existing TBP, mods, etc. All that is needed is a minimal setup with the ships, interface, and maybe a few maps to show off new features. That way we could develop what is needed and fine tune everything else, new campians could be added later.
Btw, the new stuff looks awesome Slasher, especially in that shadow vid. :nod:
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I would like to see a whole new TBP based on the latest fso, not just added on to existing TBP, mods, etc.
I think that might not be possible. IIRC, TBP's team wanted the final release to be the absolute last one ever, and that even patching stuff via Zathras was controversial.
If you are not affraid to do some grave digging regarding TBP, I recommend you look for HLP user IPAndrews, and look at the threads he posted in circa 2008.
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I wouldn't say "the team" wanted it. Some members (or most likely just a single one) where quite adamant about it.
Beside that, if everything was done anew, from the ground up, any possible claim IPA had on TBP would vanish, since the only things that would remain the same, would be the things that are legally owned by Warner Bros and Straczynski and the name "The Babylon Project" which was already chosen and set, by the time IPA joined the team. He might have been a long-time leader of the Project, but he was not among the founders.
Anyway, considering how many years it takes to build such a big and detailed total conversion I doubt it will ever happen.
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The issue IPA had was that continually updating TBP meant that FREDders were trying to make missions for a moving target. Each release would break all the previous missions meaning that that there was nothing to play when the release came out. To be honest, I largely agree with that point of view. It's why the SCP insist that no change to the code can break retail FS2. It's also why I supported the idea of Zathras at the time.
However, if there are no campaigns currently in development (or they are in development by people who don't mind updating their campaigns after every release) and all the existing campaigns work with Zathras that argument becomes somewhat moot.
Given the boost a new release would give TBP, it's probably something worth thinking about.
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A new release wouldn't change a thing unless there finally was a major campaign to play - a grand narrative to experience - that would make the mod more than just a just a bag full of assets...
All of the campaigns out there aren't feeling connected apart from the mere fact that they are set in the same universe ... which is a reflection on the fact that those who make those campaigns (even those with the badge) have been flying solo mostly, myself included ...
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I think the exposure of a new release would help. Even if you don't have anything new. Just the engine improvements would be reason enough to do it. I'm sure you could impress the hell out of people if you showed them images using deferred lighting and shadows.
The problem is that at the moment, this project looks a little dead.
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Just the engine improvements would be reason enough to do it. I'm sure you could impress the hell out of people if you showed them images using deferred lighting and shadows.
I've to admit that I've not been keeping up with the engine improvements for some time now, so you have to pardon that I can't follow you argument all the way it is intended to take me ...
And desipte that I have to disagree with your point that pretty pictures alone would sufice ... Sure it would impress people to see things with all new bells and wistles that the engine can give but in the end there would be nothing BUT pretty pictures, nothing behind it that would grip anyones interest beyond the initial "oh shiny"-moment ...
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Nothing that new for those who have already downloaded it, but plenty of wow factor for those who haven't. :)
The point though is whether or not this would bring some fresh blood to the project (either as users or better yet as devs).
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there is more to SCP than pretty pretty graphics (though it helps) it is as much about the behind the scenes improvements to give mod makers greater flexibility and improved stability from better error catching and bug fixes.
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That's also a good point. TBP runs on 3.6.9. The build is close to 5 years old.
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A new release wouldn't change a thing unless there finally was a major campaign to play - a grand narrative to experience - that would make the mod more than just a just a bag full of assets...
It might encourage new campains. I have a B5 story to tell and if fso has progressed enough it may be possible to do now.
TBP runs on 3.6.9. The build is close to 5 years old.
Has it been that long? Lol!
Anyhoo, I would settle for a mod atm. Perhaps Zathras could be expanded into a fully fledged mod for fs2 (not a stand alone version like TBP).
Are there any assets we are 'allowed' to use from TBP?
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Making TBP an FS2 mod would be horrifically stupid. It's currently a stand-alone that doesn't require FS2. Why would we limit the number of possible users?
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Why would we limit the number of possible users?
Limit users? Possibly but making ppl wait years again for a completed stand alone version is going to limit public intrest and limit the number of users that will stick around and eventually develop for it too. I don't think the same closed way of 'when its done' and 'get what you are given' will be tolerated anymore, development needs to be more open.
I was thinking it might be a good idea to start with a fs2 mod in order to sort out what is needed, what works, what doesn't, the fastest way possible without using the old TBP and having the possibilty of the 'rug pulled from under us' so to speak. Once enough is done then a standalone new TBP (which I prefer) could be developed anyway.
Personally I don't see what the problem is, either we can use the TBP assets or we can't. If not then let TBP die and start a new project with less restrictions and more open development. If we can use them, then lets get on with it. :nod:
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Given the boost a new release would give TBP, it's probably something worth thinking about.
I agree with that! One option would be to finally include the latest engine builds, Zathras version and all working campaigns available in a huge TBP 3.5 release. If this is not possible because of the history of the mod, please find a way to include some engine builds and OAL and everything needed into the next Zathras release. Right now it's much too much fiddling to get it the mod up-to-date and you won't win new users this way.
Also in my personal experience creating the Unofficial Patches for Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines, more frequent releases keep a mod like this alive. If there is too much time between TBP or Zathras releases people will move on...
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Umm. Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's wrong with using the released TBP as a base to start developing from?
And no, according to what was said in the 3.4b release, none of the assets developed for TBP may be used outside of TBP.
Limit users? Possibly
No, definitely. By making it a mod for FS2, you are requiring people to buy FS2 before they can use it; TBP as released now is completely standalone.
making ppl wait years again for a completed stand alone version
You're misunderstanding the problem. There is no new version that has to built from the ground up, it's just the old version that could use some more polish.
I don't think the same closed way of 'when its done' and 'get what you are given' will be tolerated anymore, development needs to be more open.
In an ideal world, that would be true.
In this one, however, "completely open" development isn't a good idea, as nothing will get done ever due to everyone and their dog pitching opinions all the time.
I was thinking it might be a good idea to start with a fs2 mod in order to sort out what is needed, what works, what doesn't, the fastest way possible without using the old TBP and having the possibilty of the 'rug pulled from under us' so to speak. Once enough is done then a standalone new TBP (which I prefer) could be developed anyway.
There are a LOT of people around who know what is needed to build a standalone game. There is no need for such a discovery period.
And above all, there already exists a standalone game that is 90% there already. It just needs some love and care applied to its models and effects.
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Limit users? Possibly but making ppl wait years again for a completed stand alone version is going to limit public intrest and limit the number of users that will stick around and eventually develop for it too. I don't think the same closed way of 'when its done' and 'get what you are given' will be tolerated anymore, development needs to be more open.
I was thinking it might be a good idea to start with a fs2 mod in order to sort out what is needed, what works, what doesn't, the fastest way possible without using the old TBP and having the possibilty of the 'rug pulled from under us' so to speak. Once enough is done then a standalone new TBP (which I prefer) could be developed anyway.
Personally I don't see what the problem is, either we can use the TBP assets or we can't. If not then let TBP die and start a new project with less restrictions and more open development. If we can use them, then lets get on with it. :nod:
Sorry but even making it a Wing Commander Saga (or BtRL) mod would be less dumb than making it an FS2 mod. And that's still pretty dumb.
As someone who is the team lead in a stand alone FS2_Open game, I'm going to tell you flat out that trying to rebuild TBP is just flat out impossible, there isn't the interest in the project for it to ever happen. Even when there is interest (like with the BSG or Wing Commander TCs) we're talking about a ridiculously long dev time before you have anything worthy. And sad though it may be, there just isn't the interest in TBP to make it.
Either improve TBP via Zathras or as new release, but trying to remake a project that took several years when there was interest in it, would just be a huge waste of everyone's time. Especially as in the end, we'd only be doing it in order to get around one person having an issue that as I've said above is already pretty much moot anyway.
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does anyone know what IPAndrew's contribution was?
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It was pretty substantial. The problem is that by the end he was fixing up large amounts of the TBP assets. We're not talking about someone whose contribution can be easily removed.
But like I keep saying, this all hinges on whether there is anyone developing for TBP now, and whether there are missions that don't work on Zathras.
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If it was something easily nailed down then that would be a starting point but as he was randomly fixing bits all over then like you say you are looking at starting from scratch.
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There is no new version that has to built from the ground up, it's just the old version that could use some more polish.
Needs more than a polish imo.
By making it a mod for FS2, you are requiring people to buy FS2 before they can use it
Won't hurt, its worth owning anyway.
Even when there is interest (like with the BSG or Wing Commander TCs) we're talking about a ridiculously long dev time before you have anything worthy.
Depends on how 'worthy' you think it needs to be. Just the basics and the rest can be added over time. It could be as much about developing the game, not just about using the final release.
Either improve TBP via Zathras or as new release
Or forget it all together.
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You said he fixed the models. But those things are easily the most obsolete thing in TBP. What if we used TBP tables, sounds (including music, all this sounds like it's directly from the show) and interface, but remade all the models and weapon bitmaps.
The latter is what this thread started as, and the former would take a lot of time, but there's already plenty of new models IPA most likely didn't even see (if if he did, it was in War Without End). In fact, thanks to Emi_100 and WWE (hehe :)), remaking models could go surprisingly fast.
Interface could also use a small facelift, but that's relatively minor (unless IPA worked on it, but even then, it's not too difficult, if time consuming, to make a new interface using templates).
Tables might be a problem, since they're so easy to edit that every team member most likely made a change to them at some point, and they're quite well done, though they need some tweaks. Though compared to the rest of things that would need doing, re-writing them from scratch (perhaps with a new flight model, truer to the show) would not be a huge task.
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Who said that's all he fixed?
The point is that no one but IPA knows what IPA fixed. So unless you want to throw out the entire mod and start again either you drop any attempt to to pacify him or you run the risk of releasing and him coming back and saying "I changed that 1 file. You need to pull the entire thing"
Seriously though, this topic is rapidly straying into the land of the ludicrous.
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Umm. Maybe I'm missing something here, but what's wrong with using the released TBP as a base to start developing from?
You are missing that though less buggy and unhandy than 3.3 (oh god that was bad) TBP 3.4b without Zathras still crashes every debug build you throw it at... You wanted to know why something was broken? Well good luck! Maybe you got to see the relevant bug report before the debug build just gave up
That's part of the reason that lead to the inception of Zathras...
One option would be to finally include the latest engine builds, Zathras version and all working campaigns available in a huge TBP 3.5 release. If this is not possible because of the history of the mod, please find a way to include some engine builds and OAL and everything needed into the next Zathras release. Right now it's much too much fiddling to get it the mod up-to-date and you won't win new users this way.
It is possible IMO to jam it all into a new installer and download ... that's what the "DVD project"in '08 was for - Version 1.0 is still stickied
If you have a skills creating a new bundle from 3.4b and all the mods you can gather is no problem ... however no one has been around with the skill and comittment to do for a while
If there is too much time between TBP or Zathras releases people will move on...
To my shame, that's because Zathras is the project with which we left FUBAR pretty much alone - Zathras 1.0 gathered up all the bits and pieces team members had created for their own purposes but after that it was almost all FUBAR alone
One person can do only so much...
Needs more than a polish imo.
Then cut the one liners and spill it out, man!
If you haven't noticed: no one is stopping you from from coming on this side and get your hands dirty with simple contributions - you can do pretty much everything you like with TBP 3.4b but take its assets and release them as a new mod ...
Just the basics and the rest can be added over time. It could be as much about developing the game, not just about using the final release.
That's basically the course that TBP has been running since I've this badge - look where it go us... Don't like it? Too bad 'cause this is where we are...
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Now I will take some time to chill out...
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EDIT: sry I got all that worked up .... but the reason this gets my blood boiling is that I really want to work on a TBP campaign again...
and let's face it with all it's problems that's what TBP really needs, not new models, no new textures or effects not even those sweet new graphics rendering option a modern FS_Open build could provide...
just imagine Spoon or Darius has released just the models and tables for their mods and nothing else... would we be talking about Blue Planet or Wings Of Dawn if they had? We certainly wouldn't...
Back when I got the badge we had the EACW script and the hope that one day we would have all the stuff and people to get it working - never happened
Without it TBP is and will be an empty shell because that is what it was created for ... In the end Skullar set out to work on it years ago but there hasn't been a word from his for a long time...
I really would want to work on TBP campaign again ... just so TBP wouldn't be just a bad of full of tools with no purpose ...
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I know what you mean 0rph3u5 but at the moment there isn't the interest in making that campaign. It's one reason why I feel a new release, even one with just a few new missions to justify it, would be good for TBP.
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How about that mini-campaign I wrote some time ago for the FRED Academy? I intended it to be part of a much larger campaign which I called "A Future Born In Pain". The player takes on the role of a Narn pilot, beginning late in 2258, goes through the war with the Centauri, possibly helps protect B5 during 2260 and ultimately fights in the Shadow war. We've never seen much of what the Narn did after their liberation at the end of the Shadow war, so there could be some stories there as well.
For the main campaign I wrote the story up until a point early in the Narn-Centauri war, basically the turning point where it begins to become a losing war for them. Anyway, the mini-campaign which would have been a part of it, was to have begun just after the events of the Season 2 finale "The Fall of Night", and was 9 missions long.
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If you haven't noticed: no one is stopping you from from coming on this side and get your hands dirty with simple contributions
this is:
or you run the risk of releasing and him coming back and saying "I changed that 1 file. You need to pull the entire thing"
not new models, no new textures or effects not even those sweet new graphics rendering option a modern FS_Open build could provide...
Disagree, new textures, effects, gameplay are needed.
No change here by the looks of it... :(
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Not of the type you're asking for, no.
Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though. :p
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Not of the type you're asking for, no.
Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though. :p
basically make a release that is comparatively small in effort taken such as make it 3.6.14 compatible to drum up fresh support and enthusiasm, then use that to create new missions and campaigns and perhaps, just perhaps if there is enough new blood and enthusiasm do more ambitious things.
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Disagree, new textures, effects, gameplay are needed.
In my opinion TBP is already a great mod, one of the most ambitious I ever played and one of the most amazing too! There are some minor things that should be fixed to make it closer to the show, like the jump points, but I agree with 0rph3u5, that the campaigns are the meat and bones of the project! On that regard I would suggest to finish the Earth Minbari war mini campaign and then do a re-release with that as reason and the latest Zathras and builds and OAL together in one archive. It hasn't to include all the stuff like the DVD version did if that can't be done, but it should include everything else to work out of the box. BTW, 0rph3u5 wrote that there is no knowledge anymore how to do a DVD release. Isn't this just about wrapping it all up in one big installer? I did something like this with the Bloodlines UP, should I take a look at it if I find the time?
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Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though.
'Grounded' isn't the word I would use Lol! Amazing to see how the attitudes have stayed the same though, no wonder the project went no where.
Have fun guys.
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Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though.
'Grounded' isn't the word I would use Lol! Amazing to see how the attitudes have stayed the same though, no wonder the project went no where.
Have fun guys.
given that Kara is also part of a massive project that just released, perhaps not the best thought out comment?
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Those of us a little more grounded in realism think we can make changes though.
'Grounded' isn't the word I would use Lol! Amazing to see how the attitudes have stayed the same though, no wonder the project went no where.
Have fun guys.
Unlike you, we know what is involved in producing a high-quality total conversion from scratch. Diaspora, which had a dedicated team working on it, took 4 years from start to finish; a project like TBP, which in terms of models alone is many times the size of Diaspora, will take a LOT longer. It is thus a better idea to iterate on the basis of the released TBP.
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BTW, 0rph3u5 wrote that there is no knowledge anymore how to do a DVD release. Isn't this just about wrapping it all up in one big installer? I did something like this with the Bloodlines UP, should I take a look at it if I find the time?
Your help would be greatly appricated... Best you take it the PubDev sub-forum where you can give us an impression of what you would do... (not to clutter this topic anymore)
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I was *this* close to closing it.
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Now that Diaspora is out, I can point out one other thing I couldn't before. For a little while, we should get a steady stream of users who played Diaspora and then discover TBP. That's another reason I think a new release would be a nice idea. If you can get one ready for Diaspora R2, I've got no issue pushing users over in your direction via the "Other games you might like" route.
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I was *this* close to closing it.
Split might still be a good idea...
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So much for the early summer beta release. You'll see it in November of this year, or my forum name should be changed to something appropriately humiliating.
It's been a few months since I did any real work on it and even longer since the last update. The main thing that's changed since the last update is that almost all the explosion effects have been upgraded, with the exception of a few missile explosions. This increases the size of the effects pack significantly though.
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Still running things through the debugger but I hope to do a test release with the effects done so far before the end of the week.
There is one thing I was wondering about. I've reduced the chance of a "death roll" to 25% for most fighters. Is there any reason to think this would have an effect on gameplay?
Here's the change list so far:
Weapon Effects:
EA 42mm Plasma
EA 40mm Pulse
EA 45mm Pulse
DH Light Neutron Gun
EA Light Rail Gun
EA Phalanx
EA Plasma Launcher
EA Medium Plasma Turret
EA Heavy Plasma Turret 1
EA Heavy Plasma Turret 2
EA Heavy Plasma Turret 3
EA Adv Plasma Turret
EA Medium Pulse Turret
EA Medium Pulse Turret 2
EA Heavy Pulse Turret
EA Light XRay Laser
EA XRay Laser
EA XRay AAA
CR Light TwinArray
CR Medium TwinArray
CR Heavy TwinArray
CR Ion Cannon
CR Mass Driver
CR Battle Laser
NR Light TwinArray
NR Light TwinArray 2
NR Medium Plasma Turret
NR Heavy Plasma Turret
Drazi Medium Pulse
Drazi Light Beam
Brakiri Medium Pulse
Brakiri Heavy PUlse
VF Anti-matter Cannon
Minbari HNeutron
Minbari Neutron
Minbari Fusion
WS Neutron Beam#player
WS Neutron Beam
DH Neutron AAA
DH H-NeutronAAA
DH M-Neutron
DH H-Neutron
EA Panther
EA Bulldog
EA Vengeance
NR T'Kor
CR Palos
Fixed model firing points:
EA Midwinter
EA Olympus
EA Omega
CR Primus
CR Secondus
CR Vorchan
Misc:
-Starfury countermeasure effect changed (WIP, will eventually change for all species' fighters)
-Much lower chance of "death roll" for fighters, much higher chance of instantaneous explosion upon 0% hull integrity (tentative)
-Several new explosion effects, new particle/damage spew animation, some new impact effects
-Large capital ships (destroyer size and up) now flash when exploding (partially blinding player if looking at them)
-Beams can now leave glowing burn marks on ships, and "exit wound" damage effects
-Flaming debris from ships that have broken apart (works well with HTL modpack and Zathras 2.2 beta)
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EA Light XRay Laser
EA XRay Laser
EA XRay AAA
So what have you changed about them? Now that I know how to do it, I will try to remove the yellow core and make them more red on my system to be consistent with the show.
CR Battle Laser
Drazi Light Beam
As discussed in the other thread, I suggest these should be yellow, at least the last one can clearly be seen as being yellow in Shadow Dancing. I will make my Brakiri beams yellow too.
Minbari HNeutron
Minbari Neutron
I will make these more green on my system, especially to make a clearer contrast to the yellow-green "Vorlon kind" Neutron beam of the White Stars. Or did you already do this ;)?
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We see one large vorlon vessel firing in the shadow, when it destroys the shuttle in "Deathwalker". Its charge bubble is clearly yellow there, the beam is green but with a yellow stance.
http://media.avclub.com/images/articles/article/81/81843/B5_3_swing_and_a_miss_jpg_627x1000_q85.jpg
In "Interludes And Examinations" we unfortunaly do not see the Dreadnought firing but its charge is a lot greener there. Either way, the shot effect that we have in game is laughable, it is just the fighter one recycled (which fits well by the way).
I replaced it in my Fortune Hunters missions with something that had more kick, one of the First One Beams. Does the thing way more justice!
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We see one large vorlon vessel firing in the shadow, when it destroys the shuttle in "Deathwalker". Its charge bubble is clearly yellow there, the beam is green but with a yellow stance.
This is the main reason why I want the Minbari beams to be greener. The Vorlon beams were clearly more green-yellow in the show. And I agree with you that them firing at Deathwalker is not a good representaion of their power, I rather imagine something more powerful than the destroyer fires in Shadow Walking.
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Here is the link for a test release of the effects worked on so far: [see latest test release]
You will need a 3.6.14 .exe to use it, preferably a debug build. If you insist on not using a debug build then might I recommend one of the "shadow" builds (http://www.mediafire.com/?um9c1ukpq6684u6) available. If you're going that route be sure to grab Col. Fishgut's HTL (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=78416.msg1649048#msg1649048) pack (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71120.0) from the Public Dev. forum.
You will also need the Zathras 2.0 patch at the very least. The development 2.3 build is recommended since you get more debris, though I have not had time to port over the corrected firing points to the updated models in the latest test patch.
This release has many of the younger races' weapons upgraded. I haven't gotten around to the First Ones yet, or the Minbari for that matter. Everything can be considered a work in progress, etc. etc. I'm probably forgetting some important points but I have to get up in about three hours so I'll have to remember them later.
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This release has many of the younger races' weapons upgraded.
Okay, I just tested this quickly on 3.6.15d with Zathras 2.3 and MAGs Shadow Dancing mission, which has a lot of fighting going on. First let me say that I really like the cutting-beam-leaving-traces effects :)! I don't know much about the projectiles of the younger races, so I won't comment on those, but the X-ray beams still looked not-red-enough to me and while a look into the vp file showed that you intended to make the Drazi beams yellow, it seems you forgot df_b3.dds. I would also again suggest to give Centauri and Brakiri the same yellow beams as the Drazi! You may want to take a look at the effects I will change in the next Starfury Missions patch, attached below. Vorlon, Minbari, Spitfire and one Drakh effect included.
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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The X-ray beams the Brakiri use are still using the old (non upgrade) effect. The new X-ray effect only applies to the EA beams right now. That effect is probably final for the time being.
The Drazi beam should only have two sections right now. What error message did the game give?
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The X-ray beams the Brakiri use are still using the old (non upgrade) effect.
Okay, but do you plan to make the Centauri and Brakiri use the Drazi beams at all?
The Drazi beam should only have two sections right now. What error message did the game give?
When I run it with the 3.6.15 debug build I actually get a crash before I can see the Drazi fire (Assert: fireball_type < Num_fireball_types File: fireballs.cpp Line: 794), log attached, but in the release build the Drazi beams were as red as before, and while one can argue, that we never see Centauri and Brakiri fire their beams in the original show, we clearly see that the Drazi beams are pure yellow in "Shadow Dancing". Also I would use as an argument that both EA and Narn fire their red beams out of orifices, while Drazi, Centauri and Brakiri fire their beams from poles, like the Minbari, so they are obviously more advanced than those of the EA and Narn, which I think is a good reason for them to be yellow!
[attachment deleted by a basterd]
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ASSERTION: "fireball_type < Num_fireball_types" at fireballs.cpp:794
Int3(): From c:\code\fs2_open_0\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 963
Thanks for the debug log. It will be a few days before I can take a closer look at the problem. I may have messed up when writing the fireball.tbl. If you happen to have a 3.6.14 debug build on hand, do you get the same error running that too, or is it just the 3.6.15 version?
I'm thinking the Drazi beams are still red because I gave the files for the Drazi beam graphics the same filenames as the vanilla ones, which is a big modding no-no. The vanilla TBP 3.4 stuff is probably overriding the upgrade stuff, which is exactly why I should be using unique filenames. :banghead:
Oh, if I'm looking at the debug log right, the effects_upgrade.vp is in the core TBP directory? Have you tried moving it to its own folder and loading it as a mod in the Launcher, like Zathras? If not, try that and let me know if the Drazi beams are still red. Don't disable Zathras to do this, just add something like "-mod effects_upgrade" to the command line options, assuming you haven't already.
Argh, so many things I should have mentioned.
These screenshots are 9 days old (I can't take more current ones right now) but I don't think these particular effects have changed since then. If things don't look like this even after loading the effects as a separate mod then I'll have to recheck the tables and the .vp structure.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img27/9896/pre6.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img825/8596/pre4t.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img211/7154/pre3.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img713/7748/pre2v.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img90/7901/pre1s.jpg)
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Oh, if I'm looking at the debug log right, the effects_upgrade.vp is in the core TBP directory? Have you tried moving it to its own folder and loading it as a mod in the Launcher, like Zathras?
I moved the file into the Zathras folder and everything looks great :)! No more crash and the Drazi beams and the Brakiri beams are yellow now. But honestly, I like the Brakiri ones better and I think the Drazi should use the same effects. I know the yellow Drazi beam in Shadow Dancing looks a bit wobbly, but this is due to picture distortion in my opinion. When looking at the Drazi ship front when it comes out, it looks quite normal and I think it should do this in TBP too. You could use the cooler woobly effect for the First Ones ;). Also the Centauri are still firing red, so please consider giving them the same yellow beam! They are clearly yellow in The Lost Tales...
Before you start working on the Minbari and First Ones, take a look at the folder I attached. I made the Minbari beams greener the same way you did with the EA beams and I also included a green-yellow Nial beam. For the Vorlons there are unused cool beam effects in the core file, I just reassigned them to the main guns in the ship table and added a new fire effect for the dreadnaught which looks close to what we see in the show. I also made the Spitfire projectile a little bit violet on the corners, the Drakh scattergun blue and I will try to make the Dilgar scattergun pink. If this all ends up in Zathras, I can remove the optional effects from my next patch :)!
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The Drazi beams pretty clearly have a distortion effect to them.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img189/5104/drazibeam1.jpg)
I haven't tried yellow beams on the Centauri. However, most of the Centauri's weaponry seems to tend towards red or orange, so at the moment I'm inclined to go with those colors.
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The Drazi beams pretty clearly have a distortion effect to them.
Hm, maybe you are right. Only with TBP the distortion effect comes out much too clearly in my opinion! I also noticed that you added a pulse to the main Drakh beam. I can't find a video of the battle between Drakh and Whitestars right now, but I can't remember that to be so obvious. Also didn't the Drakh fighter use beams and not projectiles?
I haven't tried yellow beams on the Centauri. However, most of the Centauri's weaponry seems to tend towards red or orange, so at the moment I'm inclined to go with those colors.
I suggest a more yellow color because of the Lost Tales (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0t0i4iFs6ck, 2:30 min), although I agree with you that in some scenes they fire more orange (unless this is because of bad YouTube quality). Still it should be a different color than the EA and Narn pure red beams, more yellow-orange at least...
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Also didn't the Drakh fighter use beams and not projectiles?
The Drakh "fighters" that we have in the mod are somewhat non-cannon. The only ones we see in the show are beam-equipped ships. In "Lines of Communication", the fighters have fairly bright and cohesive beams, while those seen in "A Call To Arms" have less bright beams with sort of pulses contained within them. One could argue that these were the fighters encountered during ACTA, and it was from this scene that the fighter+pulse was derived. I prefer to think that it was a simple artistic choice by the effect creators, and that these ships were the same class as those seen in "Lines". By that rationale, I submit that the addition of the "Fighters" for the mod are based on a balance necessity for non-cannon missions.
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The only ones we see in the show are beam-equipped ships.
So I remembered this correctly, and it makes sense too, because the Minbari have beam using fighters as well.
In "Lines of Communication", the fighters have fairly bright and cohesive beams, while those seen in "A Call To Arms" have less bright beams with sort of pulses contained within them.
In such cases I would always go with the earlier version, because it should be obvious to everyone that CGI and effects consistency was lost more and more from Babylon 5 to Crusade.
I submit that the addition of the "Fighters" for the mod are based on a balance necessity for non-cannon missions.
I'm fine with the fighters like they are right now, but couldn't we just make the beams weaker in that case?
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Someone actually brought the Drakh beam problem to my attention earlier this year, which is the whole reason I made giving them pulses a priority. Here's the link to video, oddly with the scene where the Whitestar is destroyed cut: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfDPB7spGoU
(http://imageshack.us/a/img339/4497/vlcsnap2012112023h41m16.png)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img850/5637/vlcsnap2012112023h41m06.png)
It should be noted these are from "Lines of Communication." If anything, the pulses are the most distinct part of the Drakh beam effect. :)
Only with TBP the distortion effect comes out much too clearly in my opinion!
I'm really hesitant to make changes based on these kinds of observations, simply because different people use different monitors with different brightness settings. By simply upping the brightness and contrast you can get a different looking effect:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img600/5819/distortioneffects.jpg)
Therefore I think making minute adjustments to the effects at this point, when they are unnecessary, is a questionable use of time. :)
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It should be noted these are from "Lines of Communication." If anything, the pulses are the most distinct part of the Drakh beam effect. :)
We don't see the mothership fire, but I agree with you that it should use the same beams. So will you change the Drakh fighter weapons too?
Therefore I think making minute adjustments to the effects at this point, when they are unnecessary, is a questionable use of time. :)
I can understand this, I just wanted to state my opinion. Somehow it looks too powerful that way for a "small race" like the Drazi ;).
More questions: Why are their projectiles green and not yellow? Could this be seen on the show? Also what weapons have their fighter? And would it be possible to let the models in the info window fire to make this easier to check ;)?
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You know with all this talk about this weapon color being canon or this ship using beam being canon have you ever stopped to think that they could all be canon? What is there to say that these ships don't have weapons of different types that are different colors? The Narn and quite a few of the league species bought and sold weapons to each other. Hell seeing a Centari beam on a Brakiri ship wouldn't seem to be that uncommon. Narn reverse engineer the weapons and sell them. The Drazi sold ships, weapons, and parts to just about everyone if I recall. Heck I'm amazed the EA isn't seen firing multiple beam colors from the same ship especially in the EMW when things got desperate.
Anyway my point is why not leave the existing beam colors and give new optional ones as well. Let the mission designer decide. Not sure where we are on weapons count (probably not good) but there should still be some room.
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By that rationale, I submit that the addition of the "Fighters" for the mod are based on a balance necessity for non-cannon missions.
Examination of the Crusade eps, particularly Warzone, shows a lot of light blue pulses coming from some place other than the Excalibur. It's possible these are from our hypothetical Drakh fighters. :)
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/116/vlcsnap2012120118h57m20.jpg)
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The Narn and quite a few of the league species bought and sold weapons to each other. Hell seeing a Centari beam on a Brakiri ship wouldn't seem to be that uncommon. Narn reverse engineer the weapons and sell them. The Drazi sold ships, weapons, and parts to just about everyone if I recall. Heck I'm amazed the EA isn't seen firing multiple beam colors from the same ship especially in the EMW when things got desperate.
I agree with you on this, partly, and we know for sure that they EA bought their beams from the Narn which is why they look similar on the show. But on the other hand, more advanced races like the Centauri or Minbari will surely try to avoid having their weapons fall into the hands of their enemies! So to me it makes sense, that EA and Narn share the same type (because of the above), also Drazi and Brakiri (because the league will stick together) but the Centauri should have something a bit more advanced. Also Minbari and Vorlons build the White Stars to help B5 instead of just delivering new tech because I doubt normal EA tech would be able to use them. Think of energy level, artificial gravity and similar. This also explains why the X-Omega destroyers had only Drakh beams installed and not Shadow beams, probably no way to do this on a normal fusion reactor. You see, it must have some logic behind it, because I always loved this about B5 :)!
Anyway my point is why not leave the existing beam colors and give new optional ones as well. Let the mission designer decide.
As far as I know this is always an option and very easy to do in the mission files, as I have seen often with the Vorlons. But still I think that my version and even more so that of Slasher adds needed weapons that are just not available. Like this yellow beam which is clearly seen on the show...
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I don't think the League shares that many weapons. It's called "League of non alligned worlds" rather than "Allied worlds" for a reason. They seem to be more like the NATO or UNO or something even more loosely affiliated rather than any alliance close enough to share their most powerfull weapons with each other.
Sure the Drazi sell to just about anyone who can afford it and at least the Pak'ma'ra have been buying from them, but the league has many races and we can't judge them all because of how the Drazi act.
For example I've yet to see Vree weapons mounted on another race's ship and we havn't even seen any Abbai or Gaim ships (except for tabletop and rpg games which are non-canon) or what kind of weapons the Ipsha employ.
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I'm not saying not to add them I'm saying keep an open mind to what may and may not be canon. Narn using Cenauri beams would fit because the Narn used Centauri tech against the Centauri when the broke out of slavery. So why would they change color of the beams? Maybe they didn't. Maybe the beams the Narn/Centauri/EA/ and other "younger races" use are actually invisible and the color we see is added for aiming reasons and can be changed as simple as changing a light bulb so they changed the color so they could tell friendly vs hostile fire.
Lets go with another example those Drakh ships. As alread shown there is very little evidence of what they fire. Heck we don't even know if they had multiple fighter types. What we do have is one ship shooting blue beams with pulses then the color changes when seen later on. What we have is a ship that shoots pulse turrets and has an option beam as well as a second fighter. Now lets look at that blue beam in the pic from the show. How do we know those pulses are part of the beam and not a second weapon? Those blue pluses seen around the Excalibur could be the same weapon being fired at the same time as the beam but the beams have been upgraded with Shadow tech so they are no longer blue, possibly do more damage, but can't be fired as often so you now have pulses being fired without beams.
Is that all just speculation? Yep. But until something canon comes out and says it's dead wrong then it's possible TBP got it right.
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I'm not saying not to add them I'm saying keep an open mind to what may and may not be canon.
I don't think we will ever know what is canon. So for me only what is seen on the show, and even more so, only at the time when Ron Thornton and FI had control over the CGI is considered canon or whatever. If you read the articles at the B5 Scrolls, you will notice that the guys at FI really cared about bringing some logic into the B5 world, compared to the technobabble we knew from ST, down to getting the inertia of the Starfuries right and the gravity of the station itself. And even they made errors, like the Omegas firing beams out of the wrong guns and never using their missiles.
The rest I explain to myself by comparing the technological states of the different races which did play a huge role in B5. Vorlons and Shadows being the most powerful, use beams no other races use. Already here I dislike the Spitfires and Scouts not using beams but this is like it was shown. Their main helper races the Minbari and Drakh again use beams no other races use because they won't submit their advantage easily. With them I really dislike the ugly Drakh ship design and would rather have seen the much stranger looking Streib ships in their place, which (not by accident?), use blue beams as well, as did the X-Omega destroyers, which are based on Shadow tech. So far it all makes some sense to me.
EA and Narn using the same beams is logical too, and I don't think we are talking about easily replaceable colors here. I bet the FI guys wanted to differentiate the races and their technological state by their weapons. They did so regarding the engines and the artificial gravity too. Vorlons, Shadows, Minbari, Drakh and several league races all have no jet engines and supposedly artificial gravity. Centauri have the latter but classical engines, so they could be somewhere inbetween. EA and Narn have jet engines and no gravity, so it all makes sense in perspective of their development! BTW, did we ever get to see a Pak'ma'ra ship? I can't honestly remember...
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The only Pak'ma'ra owned ship we ever saw in the show was a Drazi Sunhawk (or Firehawk... but I think the former), which was destroyed by the Drakh shortly before they sent their ambassador to meet with Delenn and Forell on a White Star.
And I never saw any Drakh fire violet beams. The only thing I saw firing violet beams were Shadow ships and the Death Cloud (which is fully Shadow tech that the Drakh used, but didn't build themselfs). According to the show the Drakh found the cloud itself and according to the Centauri Trilogy books they found an automated factory that build it for them, which Vir and some technomages destroyed before it could finish a second cloud.
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At least in this release of the effects the Advanced Omega uses the same beam graphics and translation values as the Drakh minus the pulses, as per "Between the Darkness and the Light."
It makes you wonder if Clark hadn't been disposed and Earth had continued on "that" path if humanity would have ended up another Shadow thrall race like the Drakh.
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And I never saw any Drakh fire violet beams.
Yes, because even the Shadows wanted to keep some advantage over their peers. As did the Vorlons...
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You also have to remember the Shadows and Vorlons had organic tech which may have not been entirely reproducible by the Drakh or even the ISA ships with organic hulls. The different color beams might just be a hybrid tech of the shadow weapons and the existing species weapons.
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Regarding Shadow ship explosions, I'm pretty sure we can specify a specific explosion animation for individual ship classes. We are very fortunate in this case that the original table editors for TBP did not give the Shadow ships a shockwave effect be default. Therefore, swapping in the asteroid explosion should be simple, though I'd like to think we can do better than that. If I can pull it off, I'm going to make the explosion a deeper black, like the ship itself.
I'm not so sure about individual ship classes, or species for that matter, being allowed a unique damage/particle spew. I always imagined the Shadow ships in the game should "bleed" like the wounded ones in the show do, rather than spout those little trails of flame like all the other ships. I know SCP is in a code freeze right now, and even if they weren't, I doubt unique damage spews would be high on their list.
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Particle spew defined in species_defs has been broke since retail but hopefully will be fixed soon if it wasn't in the last couple of weeks. Then we can just use an existing shadow map for the pieces.
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Regarding Shadow ship explosions, I'm pretty sure we can specify a specific explosion animation for individual ship classes.
While we are talking about explosions, Slasher, I know your current effects project goes in the opposite direction :), but do you think it would be possible to make the explosions more like in the FI time of the show itself? Without any of these clouds and shockwaves, just a bright flash with sparks and then the ship breaking apart?
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You mean like the Season 1 explosions? :D
It's doable for fighters and small ships, like transports. I haven't fully tested m!m's particle trail script with TBP yet, so it might help in pulling off that effect. Explosion effects will probably be revisited anyway since this was my first time working with that particular animation editor.
For big ships were stuck with big, fiery Hollywood explosions unless we can cut capital ship explosion times down to a couple seconds. I'm not a huge fan of the Star Warsy shockwaves myself, but they're a gameplay concession from/for TBP 3.4.
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You mean like the Season 1 explosions? :D
I'm pretty sure they were like this until FI was kicked out. Just look at Shadow Dancing! There are only very few cloud explosions and most of them not much larger than the exploding ship itself. All the others are just bright lights and a lots of small spark-like particles.
For big ships were stuck with big, fiery Hollywood explosions unless we can cut capital ship explosion times down to a couple seconds. I'm not a huge fan of the Star Warsy shockwaves myself, but they're a gameplay concession from/for TBP 3.4.
I just did a quick test by removing the big explosions by limiting the animations to just the first frame. But then even with the ships breaking up fine, there is some kind of light and particle effect missing to make it look like a real explosion at all...
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It's not the length of the animation I'm concerned about so much as the time it takes for a capital ship to break apart. I have far less control over that, so we fit the explosion animation accordingly.
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If you want to play with it I suggest checking the Wiki as a number of new features for ship deaths have been added since 3.6.12: http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ships.tbl#.24Expl_Inner_Rad:
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It looks like particle spew characteristics can still be modified except for the actual graphic itself. I remember earlier this year I tried to use the particle effect for glowing hit decals by giving them a velocity of zero, but then they didn't move with the ship they were on. Still, given the options available, I can at least try to get a more "organic" explosion for the Shadow ships.
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Me n my bros have recently downloaded TBP and love it. How does one acquire all these cool updates that you guys are working on in this thread?
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By patiently waiting for them to finish the work and release it would be my best guess.
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Shadow Craps vomiting out their entrails upon death would certainly add a lot to the game's atmosphere.
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The Drakh beams definitely have pulses. I tried to get it in game. But I don't recall getting it working. I do recall the pulse either jumping around the beam randomly or ending up hopelessly elongated. Either way it looked pants.
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I don't know if the engine allowed it back then, but now the bitmap scaling factor can remain constant rather than be a function of the length of the beam. This has worked out pretty well for the smaller Drakh beams, but I'm not sure I like the effect replicated for their biggest weapons. One of the numerous things that could change between now and the next release.
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When capital ships are set to attack eachother, they fly to within extremely close range and circle eachother firing almost exclusively their secondary weapons. I know this can be corrected with waypoints, but perhaps a simple change in their AI can make them more believable when we don't want to put in waypoints(because we want some unpredictable element in the missions we create for ourselves). Say, they always face their target with their primary weapons and close within optimal range(range of their most powerful weapon).
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In general this is not super viable, as the AI code is a mess. One thing you can do to create more dynamic battles is to use moving waypoints.
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(http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/4800/1v55.jpg)
Why is there a blue tint around the beam?
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Does the Vorlon dreadnaught ever actually fire its main gun during the show? There doesn't seem to be any source material.
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S1 "Deathwalker"
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Thanks. That looks like such a wussy beam for such a big ship. Especially since the Vorlon cruisers fire a much beefier looking one in S3.
I'm thinking the Vorlons can probably scale the size of the beam for a given target. And since I can't make the current beam effect smaller anyway...
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I'm thinking the Vorlons can probably scale the size of the beam for a given target.
I agree. This might also have been kind of a deception with them missing on the first shot too ;).
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Can anyone send a download link? (I had to re-install the game, and I lost these upgrades :sigh: )
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If you mean the changed beam colors, they are included in the Babylon 5 - Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 1.9: http://www.moddb.com/mods/babylon-5-star-fury-pilot-unofficial-patch
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Almost... I was looking for the "beam-cutting" and muzle-flash effects.
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Almost... I was looking for the "beam-cutting" and muzle-flash effects.
Has anything new been done it that direction?
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Slasher anounced a .VP some years ago, where he added muzle flash and beam-slice effects to almost all weapons. That file is what I'm looking for.
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Is this the FX upgrade you were talking about?: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B01hVcJFK8KEbmd2aVo0SUFoRjA/view?usp=sharing
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Oh yes, that's it. Thank you
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I have been out of the loop for a while! Beam Slashing is a much required aspect to space battles in my opinion from B5 to Star Trek.... Must add.... I will curious to look at the tables when time permits! Did anyone get a chance to get my beam charge up effect to work on the V-Dreadnought I made.... I was able to make it happen, but after several lines of if/thens, and triggers in fred.... To be continued!
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Almost... I was looking for the "beam-cutting" and muzle-flash effects.
Has anything new been done it that direction?
It went into limbo a few years ago. I have made a belated New Years Resolution to, if not unlimbo it, at least make the link less hard to find so it's not buried on page 69 of Ghost Thread of Christmas Past!