Author Topic: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)  (Read 21094 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
I doubt that was a particular consideration for the Japanese government and citizenry. 'Ah, balls, I guess we deserve it!'

 
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The thing you are forgetting is that the GTVA's stance on being ready to fight Shivans at the drop of a hat is not entirely unreasonable. Sure, they have "lost something out there", as Laporte put it, but that does not mean that their fears and wants are unjustified.

The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people. The UEF knows this; as such, there won't be all that many heavy objections.

No ... I don't think that's likely - if there wouldn't be heavy objections the UEF wouldn't still be fighting them at all. ;) The UEF leadership has a different path to fighting the Shivans. Plus we're talking about whether the UEF citizenry would accept GTA leadership after the war. I don't think they would. They might, it could go the way you're saying for the reasons you're saying, but given the type of government the GTA has become, the actions of the war, and the type of government the people of the UEF expect, the more likely scenario seems resistance.

Well, we do have a historical example of a nation surrendering to and becoming a key ally of a country that ordered the nuclear bombing of its civilian cities...

I doubt that was a particular consideration for the Japanese government and citizenry. 'Ah, balls, I guess we deserve it!'

That was a different situation and even so, very, very touch and go:

1) Japan was destroyed in a way the GTA are trying to avoid with the UEF, even with the bombing of Luna and other infrastructure assets showing they're willing to accept some destruction to achieve victory, they don't want to inherit something on the brink of total collapse. That would partially defeat the point of invasion in the first place.

2) The Americans did not remove the Emperor from power. The GTA is going to remove the Elders if they win. There are many that believe if the Americans had attempted to remove the Emperor, Japan would've been a different occupation (actually a new movie coming out about that). The GTA removing the Elders would be to attack the soul of the UEF and its citizenry.

3) Many Americans did want to see the Emperor tried and sentenced for Peal Harbor. If you are the UEF, the GTA attack was unannounced and unprovoked - even if you "understand" their mentality, you aren't going to simply accept them. You guys are the experts on the UEF-Ubuntu government since BP is your baby. :) But it doesn't seem like the wisdom and understanding the government tries to spread is coupled with acceptance. Resistance would still be perfectly acceptable. I'm imagining an entire civilization of Henry David Thoreau's. :)

As you say, we won't know until we get there. I don't think any of the scenarios we see here the ones you guys will choose. :)
« Last Edit: February 09, 2013, 06:08:31 pm by crazy_dave »

 

Offline CT27

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
While the GTVA may remove the Elders from power, it'd be wise (wouldn't it?) to keep some of the Ubuntu Party leaders in power right?  (As long as they accepted GTVA authority of course).

 
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
While the GTVA may remove the Elders from power, it'd be wise (wouldn't it?) to keep some of the Ubuntu Party leaders in power right?  (As long as they accepted GTVA authority of course).

The Ubuntu Party leaders are the Elders. :) There are government figures who actually do the day-to-day running. But the question is ... would they accept GTA authority? I'd argue not.

 

Offline Gray113

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The problem with comparing the UEF with Japan in this analogy is that the US actually occupied Japan something that the GTVA cannot do to the UEF. What is being suggested to be the GTVA strategy is the equivalent of the US keeping a couple of aircraft carriers in Japanese waters that would threaten to bomb the mainland if Japan did not tow the line.

The other fact is that unlike the UEF Japan at the time was a military dictatorship with little social mobility. When the US took over they liberalised the countries economy by diversifying away from military production towards trade whilst empowering previously downtrodden groups such as the workers, political activists and minorities. Also the emperor had very little power and was seen as only a figurehead for the military to use in order to maintain the loyalty of the population. The elders on the other hand are the guiding light for UEF governance and the GTVA has made a priority to remove them from power.


 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Remember the Ubuntus believe their form of government and their long range planning has made them enlightened and brought them paradise.

And they can keep paradise. And if they can keep paradise, have they any tangible reason to complain? People rebel because things are bad for them personally, remember.


Gray's analysis is fascinatingly wrong on several counts. First, that's not what is being proposed. The GTVA has the ability to blockade any and all individual planets in Sol. They would tell the local authorities to keep the peace and keep order or face total economic and travel exclusion. If they keep the peace and keep order, they may continue in business as usual. Life will change, if at all, only for those who go offworld.

He's got the history of Japan completely wrong. The US essentially destroyed Japan's economy, there are no meaningful minorities in Japan even today, and the US didn't empower anyone or rebuild anything. The Emperor-as-figurehead is a story told by MacArthur because he needed the Emperor to help keep order. Japan's economy only recovered during and after the Korean War when US influence was relaxed to allow the zaibatsu to come back in exchange for Japanese support.

Third, he's completely misread the influence of the Elders. It has been stated by Batts and Darius that they are closer to an extremely prestigious advisory council to the planetary governments than a genuinely executive power (something that anyone who's followed the lack of coordination between the UEF's fleets should probably have realized!). A more correct parallel would be the Supreme Council for the Defense of the Faith in Iran; immense advisory and veto power, but little actual decision-making is done there. Removing the Elders yet keeping their programs in place will result in very little short-term change on the ground.
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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Remember the Ubuntus believe their form of government and their long range planning has made them enlightened and brought them paradise.

And they can keep paradise. And if they can keep paradise, have they any tangible reason to complain? People rebel because things are bad for them personally, remember.


Gray's analysis is fascinatingly wrong on several counts. First, that's not what is being proposed. The GTVA has the ability to blockade any and all individual planets in Sol. They would tell the local authorities to keep the peace and keep order or face total economic and travel exclusion. If they keep the peace and keep order, they may continue in business as usual. Life will change, if at all, only for those who go offworld.

He's got the history of Japan completely wrong. The US essentially destroyed Japan's economy, there are no meaningful minorities in Japan even today, and the US didn't empower anyone or rebuild anything. The Emperor-as-figurehead is a story told by MacArthur because he needed the Emperor to help keep order. Japan's economy only recovered during and after the Korean War when US influence was relaxed to allow the zaibatsu to come back in exchange for Japanese support.

Third, he's completely misread the influence of the Elders. It has been stated by Batts and Darius that they are closer to an extremely prestigious advisory council to the planetary governments than a genuinely executive power (something that anyone who's followed the lack of coordination between the UEF's fleets should probably have realized!). A more correct parallel would be the Supreme Council for the Defense of the Faith in Iran; immense advisory and veto power, but little actual decision-making is done there. Removing the Elders yet keeping their programs in place will result in very little short-term change on the ground.

I disagree on almost all counts :) - threatening to destroy a place's economics is not going to faze the Ubuntu governments and may result in further recalcitrant behavior - especially the ones on Earth - Mars and Jupiter which are no doubt more precarious, maybe, but Earth? Forget it. As I stated above, this is appears to be a civilization of Thoreau's and people credit the Ubuntu leadership with bringing paradise about. They may be an advisory council (and in fact they have acted as much more than that during the conflict and even before), but the GTA views them as the leaders of the land and so does the populace. MacArthur was able to use keeping the Emperor as a figurehead to keep order, but the GTA have stated quite clearly about removing the council of Elders which form the philosophical backbone of the Ubuntu government and the entire civilization that has been built. To attack them is to attack to the soul of Sol's civilization. And can you even remove them but keep their long-range programs in place without their leadership to guide those programs? Further the main point Gray and myself are trying to make is that Japan is a bad analogy for the UEF. You yourself have stated several key differences in the situation in your own post. Thus saying that because Japan didn't revolt or resist after WWII and therefore it is reasonable that the UEF won't either seems erroneous.

Under the scenario of a GTA victory there is no reason not to expect non-compliance, work stoppages, and all other manners of resistance organized at the civilian level and more violent resistance leveled by the remaining UEF forces. It is also stated that the GTA maintain their civilization using two approaches: 1) fear of the Shivans and 2) returning home (which they have now done - sort of). As the_E has already rightly pointed out 1) is not unreasonable (neither is 2). But as is also stated in the game, 1)'s enough to run an army, but not a civilization. Maybe the Ubuntu population is actually made of less sterner stuff than what is articulated in the descriptions both Tech room and verbally by its members in the game, but it's also stated quite explicitly that this fear is not enough to motivate compliance by an Ubuntu citizen. Now perhaps a conquerer with a lighter touch might pull it off, but the GTA doesn't seem to go in for light touches. If they were interested in compromise and otherwise non-heavy-handed approaches, there probably wouldn't have been a war at all. To survive the horrors of the Shivans, their civilization has become a weapon and that's the tool they know how to use. That's not an approach that would mix well with an Ubuntu populace. For the occupation to be anything other than a disaster, the GTA would have to be other than what it is and being other than what it is, it wouldn't have invaded in the first place. Indeed, part of the reason for the invasion was the otherness of the Ubuntu government and culture relative to the GTA's. If that culture has indeed permeated the population, then GTA occupation and Ubuntu government are incompatible - oil and water.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 05:10:39 am by crazy_dave »

 

Offline Gray113

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
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there are no meaningful minorities in Japan even today

Wrong in the sense of what Japanese society considered to be minorities. There are several minority groups from parts of Japan such as the Burakumin, the Ryukyuan and the Ainu all of which were excluded from mainstream Japanese society due to discrimination by the majority Yamato who were in control of the government as well as the military. (Indeed the Burakumin are still viewed as sub human by many in a similar way to the Untouchables of India even though they are the same ethnically as the Yamato).

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The Emperor-as-figurehead is a story told by MacArthur because he needed the Emperor to help keep order.

The Emperor of Japan held power in a manner that is similar to most European constitutional monarchies - The government seeks the permission of the monarch in order to enact bills however this is only as a courtesy to old traditions. If for example the English queen tried to reject a new law that had been passed by the Westminister government then her power to block bills would be quickly removed and she would be replaced by a more helpfull figurehead.

A non-elected steering committee of scientists and philosophers who set long-term strategic imperatives for the Federation. The Council also maintains enormously sophisticated political and economic models in order to simulate the effects of its decisions. - taken from What is Ubuntu?

The council are in effect the power behind the throne as well as the advisory council to the planetary governments. Much in the same way as a system analyst would control the IT system of the company that employs them. The company knows what it wants a system to do and hires the analyst to create the system. The analyst however is the one who designs the system, knows if the design will work, suggests alternative actions/plans that can improve the functionality of the system for the benefit of the company, maintains the system, adjusts the system to take advantage of new developments, trains the staff in how to use the system to optimal standards and uses this knowledge to create the system that will replace the one they have just created. If the analyst was suddenly removed just as a new system was going on-line and replaced with outsourced tech team with a proven record of incompetence then the whole system would crash in a matter of weeks.

The council designed the systems that ensure Sols prosperity and maintain these systems. The government of the UEF may not answer to them but they do rely on the council in a way that ensures that they cannot disagree with their advice. The UEF fleets are different as each admiral has a high degree of autonomy and even then Byrne is in constant contact with the elders.

Edit: The Terran government is of course the outsourced tech team with a proven record of incompetence in the metaphore as they have been shown to be unable to properly administer their own systems without Vasudan aid.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 06:13:18 am by Gray113 »

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Edit: The Terran government is of course the outsourced tech team with a proven record of incompetence in the metaphore as the have been shown to be unable to properly administer their own systems without Vasudan aid.
This sentence is almost 100% false.

You guys really need to ditch the idea that the GTVA is a ****hole ruled by some despotic evil overlord of a government.  It is none of those things.  And you're assuming that UEF citizens would resist just for the sake of it, despite the fact that a GTVA administration would give them neither a reason to resist (because everything would go along as usual) nor a a visible enemy to resist (because their local government officials would still be the same).


The thing is, the UEF was able to evolve the way it did because they were isolated; now that that isolation has been broken, they will have to change to deal with the situation, just as the GTVA has to change to be able to incorporate 9 billion people.
  I think Sol has more than 9 billion people.  Today's Earth has nearly 7 billion.  :p
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 06:27:03 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline The E

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Yes, it does. I make no apologies for drawing that number out of a hat.
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Offline Gray113

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Aesaar - No one is accusing the GTVA of that. However it is a completely different style of government (militant) to what is practiced in Sol (Democratic) as well as being the aggressor in this conflict. The assumption that they can defeat the UEF militarily and then take over the running of Sol with very little problems is incredibly naive.

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This sentence is almost 100% false.

I suggest that you reread the Rift.

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Aesaar - No one is accusing the GTVA of that. However it is a completely different style of government (militant) to what is practiced in Sol (Democratic) as well as being the aggressor in this conflict.
Matth said it better than me:
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[07:39.39] <MatthTheGeek> just because they [the military] are allowed to do whatever it takes to ensure the survival of the human and vasudan species doesn't mean the gtva citizen are living in north korea
There is a civilian government in the GTVA.  Just because the military has a bigger role than we're used to does not make it a military dictatorship.  Moreover, I find it amusing how you call the UEF democratic despite the fact that effective power rests with the unelected Council of Elders, who themselves have access to a black ops group with extremely limited accountability.

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The assumption that they can defeat the UEF militarily and then take over the running of Sol with very little problems is incredibly naive.
Actually, they can.  The reason why has been explained to you time and time again, but you just don't want believe it.   I'll say it again anyway:  With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist.  Why would they? 

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I suggest that you reread the Rift.
  I suggest that you stop exaggerating every single tiny factor.  The Vasudans provide limited financial aid to the Terrans.  That most certainly does not equal, as you put it, "unable to properly administer their own systems without Vasudan aid."  And the "proven track record of incompetence" part is actually 100% false.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 06:55:27 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist.
Also, note that the UEF citizens are (on average) highly educated and open-minded. I am fairly certain the GTVA is betting on that for making them understand that now that the war is over, it's better for all humanity if they keep living peacefully. They may not completely enjoy it, but they will be sensible to rational argumentation if the Tevs play their cards right.

Also, educated masses are harder to make revolt than uneducated masses.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline gloowa

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Also, note that the UEF citizens are (on average) highly educated and open-minded. I am fairly certain the GTVA is betting on that for making them understand that now that the war is over, it's better for all humanity if they keep living peacefully. They may not completely enjoy it, but they will be sensible to rational argumentation if the Tevs play their cards right.
So basically it's a bully that kicks down the door to you home, kills those of your family that tried to kick him out, throws a grenade into child's room for good measure and then says "now that the hostilities have ended, you are to be happy to live under my command." I don't know about UEF citizens, but i know what my response would be.


Also, educated masses are harder to make revolt than uneducated masses.
I can't agree with that.
It depends on what are the masses supposed to revolt against, and for. I bet you would get more support from educated people if you tried to entice a democratic revolt in communist country, and exactly opposite would be true if you tried to switch from democracy to communism.

Also, take note of what Laporte says about Ubuntu society - that they are not easily manipulated by government to believe and do what government would like them to believe and do.

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Offline Aesaar

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
So basically it's a bully that kicks down the door to you home, kills those of your family that tried to kick him out, throws a grenade into child's room for good measure and then says "now that the hostilities have ended, you are to be happy to live under my command." I don't know about UEF citizens, but i know what my response would be.
How fortunate that that isn't at all what the GTVA is doing.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 08:42:24 am by Aesaar »

 

Offline The E

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
So basically it's a bully that kicks down the door to you home, kills those of your family that tried to kick him out, throws a grenade into child's room for good measure and then says "now that the hostilities have ended, you are to be happy to live under my command." I don't know about UEF citizens, but i know what my response would be.

I think you severely overestimate the effect the invasion has had. Or the way it was conducted.
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Offline Gray113

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Quote
There is a civilian government in the GTVA.  Just because the military has a bigger role than we're used to does not make it a military dictatorship.  Moreover, I find it amusing how you call the UEF democratic despite the fact that effective power rests with the unelected Council of Elders, who themselves have access to a black ops group with extremely limited accountability.

The UEF citizens elect their governors, whatever power the Elders have is because their social models are working which has earned them the support of the populace and their elected representatives. If the GTVA usurp power then they are removing peoples democratic choice through violence and replacing it with a dictatorship.

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Actually, they can.  The reason why has been explained to you time and time again, but you just don't want believe it.   I'll say it again anyway:  With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist.  Why would they?

There it is again the assumption that nothing is going to change which completely ignores my argument that the Terrans will probably be unable to recreate the economic systems that the Elders developed due to the complexity of these systems and the loss of unique environment in isolationist Sol that allowed these systems to flourish. If these systems fail then the populace is looking at massive unemployment and damage to social infrastructure. This will change peoples lives drastically and all this blame will fall solely at the feet of the security council.

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The Vasudans provide limited financial aid to the Terrans.  That most certainly does not equal, as you put it, "unable to properly administer their own systems without Vasudan aid." The "proven track record of incompetence" part is actually 100% false

One of the primary reasons cited for going to war was to give the Terran population an outside force to unite against - a common policy used by unpopular governments to distract from their own failings(recent examples include the invasion of Kuwait and the Falklands conflict). The Terran half of the GTVA is on the verge of civil war on a scale not seen since the NTF uprisings and without Vasudan aid the government would have already collapsed. Instead of doing as the Vasudans did to restore their systems and regain stability the terrans instead put all their resources into constructing the Sol gate and a crash fleet building program designed  to defend against a foe that cannot be defeated militarily. All this whilst ignoring massive social problems within their own populace. Once the gate was finally constructed instead of doing the smart thing and opening a covert dialogue with the leaders of the Sol government they instead took a massive gamble where they launched a war that has crippled what was left of their financial output leaving them dependent on military aid from the Vasudans and left them staring at the complete dissolution of their society if the fail to quickly conclude the war. All in all pretty incompetent by most standards.

You choose to belive that the GTVA will be able to run Sol as effectivly as the UEF then ok. I just remain to be convinced for the reasons that I have stated above.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
...you realize you're arguing with devs, right ? They didn't chose to believe, they know what they're talking about. They wrote it !
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Gray113

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
I know but it is fun :)

 

Offline Aesaar

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Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The UEF citizens elect their governors, whatever power the Elders have is because their social models are working which has earned them the support of the populace and their elected representatives. If the GTVA usurp power then they are removing peoples democratic choice through violence and replacing it with a dictatorship.
Except that the only elected members of the UEF government wouldn't be the ones getting removed.  The GTVA isn't removing anyone's democratic choice.  The Elders are not elected.  They have as much claim to democratic legitimacy as the GTVA does.

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There it is again the assumption that nothing is going to change which completely ignores my argument that the Terrans will probably be unable to recreate the economic systems that the Elders developed due to the complexity of these systems and the loss of unique environment in isolationist Sol that allowed these systems to flourish. If these systems fail then the populace is looking at massive unemployment and damage to social infrastructure. This will change peoples lives drastically and all this blame will fall solely at the feet of the security council.
  Why would the Terrans be unable to replicate the UEF systems?  The UEF economic models were generated by supercomputers the GTVA would have access to.  Isolationist conditions can be maintained and lifted slowly through tight regulation of the jump node.  Moreover, the demand for materials in the GTVA would result in increased demand for goods, not less.  The addition of a new market for UEF goods would not cause unemployment.  This is pretty much as basic as economics get. 

The GTVA government isn't staffed by morons.  They know what they're doing.


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One of the primary reasons cited for going to war was to give the Terran population an outside force to unite against - a common policy used by unpopular governments to distract from their own failings(recent examples include the invasion of Kuwait and the Falklands conflict). The Terran half of the GTVA is on the verge of civil war on a scale not seen since the NTF uprisings and without Vasudan aid the government would have already collapsed. Instead of doing as the Vasudans did to restore their systems and regain stability the terrans instead put all their resources into constructing the Sol gate and a crash fleet building program designed  to defend against a foe that cannot be defeated militarily. All this whilst ignoring massive social problems within their own populace. Once the gate was finally constructed instead of doing the smart thing and opening a covert dialogue with the leaders of the Sol government they instead took a massive gamble where they launched a war that has crippled what was left of their financial output leaving them dependent on military aid from the Vasudans and left them staring at the complete dissolution of their society if the fail to quickly conclude the war. All in all pretty incompetent by most standards.
Oh ffs.  Reread the causes of the war and you'll understand why "covert dialog" wasn't a good option for the GTVA.  Then make sure you understand what MORPHEUS is and you'll understand why war was the only option. 

Just because the Shivans can't be fought in the traditional manner doesn't mean that there aren't other viable contingencies that still require a powerful military.  The evacuation of Capella would not have been possible without a strong military.  And that, I'll add, is what the GTVA is focusing on.  They're capable of evacuating entire planets in a matter of days.  I trust in these contingencies far more than I trust the promises of some vindictive aliens who want us dead if we don't play by their rules.  And the Shivans could probably kill them too if they really desired it.

You seem to think that the GTVA is one step away from falling apart at the seams.  It isn't.  The core systems (Vega, Delta Serpentis, Beta Aquilae) are in decent shape.  The real issue is the periphery, which is where the effects of the depression were most keenly felt (Epsilon Pegasi is a notable example).  An unrestricted line to Sol would spell economic collapse for both the UEF and the GTVA.  The UEF models haven't planned for a massive influx of immigrants from the colonies, and the GTVA economy can't handle it either.  Believe it or not, the war was probably a good thing in the long run (assuming no Shivan attack).  The spread of Ubuntu is much the same.  Less of a problem in the core, but a huge problem in the periphery.

Next, A) the GTVA isn't dependent on Vasudan aid.  B) it wasn't the war that made them seek Vasudan help in the first place.  It was Capella.  The Vasudans got away from the Second Incursion almost completely intact.  The Terrans most certainly did not.  The Vasudan complaint was that the Sol Gate project was slowing economic recovery.  It is not the cause of the depression.  And no, the GTVA doesn't need the Vasudans in Sol.  They could send another Anemoi or two to replace the Agincourt without a problem.  The GTVA approached the Vasudans for two reasons: A) The UEF wouldn't attack the Vasudans, and B) resumption of cooperation between the two militaries is a good way to start mending the Rift.  I say again, the Terrans do not need the Vasudans in Sol.


BTW, don't assume I know too many things that aren't available to everyone else.  I haven't read that much of the internal stuff.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 09:45:17 am by Aesaar »