Author Topic: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)  (Read 21089 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Gray113

  • 27
  • There comes a time when the odds are against you,
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Quote
They have as much claim to democratic legitimacy as the GTVA does.

The distinction between choosing to accept a decision and being forced to accept a decision is quite significant.

Quote
The UEF economic models were generated by supercomputers the GTVA would have access to.  Isolationist conditions can be maintained and lifted slowly through tight regulation of the jump node.

Why would the GTVA gain access to these computers? The_E already stated that the Fedayeen would not hand over Cadssandra why would the UEF government had over their systems? Travel and freedom of movement would be restricted to UEF personel limiting the flow of trade between the planets. The populace may be hesitant about dealing with Tev approved traders due to percived injustices in the new regime.

Will respond to the rest later cos I have to go out now. Been fun debating with you :yes:

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The UEF government would hand over their economic supercomputers because they're very, very important to UEF economic stability, and not handing them over would be nothing but spite.  It would probably be the biggest possible betrayal of Ubuntu. 

Quote
The distinction between choosing to accept a decision and being forced to accept a decision is quite significant.
One and the same with both the GTVA and the Elders though.  If the Elders make a decision the average citizen isn't happy with, there's nothing they can do about it.  Of course, the average UEF citizen is well educated enough to know that the Elders probably know better than he/she does.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
...you realize you're arguing with devs, right ? They didn't chose to believe, they know what they're talking about. They wrote it !

Gray has every right to have an interpretation of the universe - in fact the setting is built so that people can have strong political beliefs about it, just like real life!

 

Offline CT27

  • 211
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
I'm sure the GTVA has thought about this too.  Even in a military victory, surely they don't expect the majority of Sol to welcome them with flowers and open arms do they?  That would be about as naive as in real life when the U.S. expected their post-Iraq invasion situation to be peaceful and everyone there to love them.

 

Offline gloowa

  • 25
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
How fortunate that that isn't at all what the GTVA is doing.
I think you severely overestimate the effect the invasion has had. Or the way it was conducted.
Sorry, i was under the impression that it was GTVA who was the aggressor (kicking down the door), that it was GTVA that decimated 3rd and wounded 2nd fleets (kills those of your family that tried to kick him out), nuked Luna (throws a grenade into child's room).

A admit, i have strong feelings against anyone that tries to invade another country (being a citizen of country that was erased from maps several times throughout history) and that affects my judgment, but there are things one simply does not do.

Also, yes i do realize I'm arguing discussing with devs. That's the whole point :) What better way to pump them for information about things to come? :P

Seriously though, i can't see UEF citizens NOT revolting against GTVA, it being a military autocracy at the moment.
Adm. Petrarch: For your excellent record of confirmed kills, you reached status of Ace.
Laporte: Dude, WTH are you doing in Indus briefing room?

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The GTVA isn't a military autocracy.

 
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The GTVA is not a military autocracy.  Secretary-General Tocqueville, the head of state of the GTVA, was elected through a democratic process.  A military with more autonomy than what we have today does not create an autocracy.  The only place the military calls the shots is in Sol, and that's not even GTVA territory (yet :drevil:).
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The Security Council does probably have more throw weight than we'd expect in a modern democracy, though. Like the Joint Chiefs being a major arm of government, although the Council isn't entirely military.

 
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Alright, I can go with that.  I still can't blame the GTVA for a system like that considering they're under constant threat of invasion from a foe with seemingly limitless numbers and the capability to make stars go supernova.
17:37:02   Quanto: I want to have sexual intercourse with every space elf in existence
17:37:11   SpardaSon21: even the males?
17:37:22   Quanto: its not gay if its an elf

[21:51] <@Droid803> I now realize
[21:51] <@Droid803> this will be SLIIIIIGHTLY awkward
[21:51] <@Droid803> as this rich psychic girl will now be tsundere for a loli.
[21:51] <@Droid803> OH WELLL.

See what you're missing in #WoD and #Fsquest?

[07:57:32] <Caiaphas> inspired by HerraTohtori i built a supermaneuverable plane in ksp
[07:57:43] <Caiaphas> i just killed my pilots with a high-g maneuver
[07:58:19] <Caiaphas> apparently people can't take 20 gees for 5 continuous seconds
[08:00:11] <Caiaphas> the plane however performed admirably, and only crashed because it no longer had any guidance systems

 

Offline gloowa

  • 25
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
I am fairly certain that Steele was calling the shots and giving order to everyone now in GTVA? Something long the lines "Steele gives orders to civilians now". I believe it was result of putting GTD Carthage out of action? I'm fairly certain that Steele was NOT elected for that role.
Adm. Petrarch: For your excellent record of confirmed kills, you reached status of Ace.
Laporte: Dude, WTH are you doing in Indus briefing room?

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
  • the REAL Nuke of HLP
    • North Carolina Tigers
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
the way i saw it is steele (a single man) is now in a similar position with the GTVA as the elders (a group of many) are with the UEF.  they hold no formalized political power, but they command respect and their wishes/orders generally granted, as the people with the actual power concede to their expertise.  the impression i had of the BP-lore GTVA is that the military in general has a similar influence over the civilian government to a lesser degree, with respect to the shivans as opposed to Steele with respect to the UEF.
I like to stare at the sun.

 
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
With no change to their lifestyle, and no visible enemy to resist, most UEF citizens would not be inclined to resist.
Also, note that the UEF citizens are (on average) highly educated and open-minded. I am fairly certain the GTVA is betting on that for making them understand that now that the war is over, it's better for all humanity if they keep living peacefully. They may not completely enjoy it, but they will be sensible to rational argumentation if the Tevs play their cards right.

Also, educated masses are harder to make revolt than uneducated masses.

Actually that's false - you need an educated class to foster the revolution, plus there is also non-violent versus violent resistance. As I said, understanding does not breed acceptance - understanding can be used in civil resistance, think Thoreau.

BTW my arguments make it sound like I am more pro-UEF than I really am. I almost wrote these paragraphs below earlier and perhaps I should've done so.

I am pro-UEF in the game, but outside of the specific construction of the BP universe I would be very uncomfortable with their system of government. While we do not know the exact details of the local governments, I would assume they are some sort of democracy, however, still an organization like the Council of Elders would make me quite uncomfortable. That wouldn't justify an invasion of their home system without provocation since their people are not being repressed or degraded, but it's not something I'd try to emulate in real life. :) Plus, while people on the board refer to GEFs as space hippies, truthfully Ubuntu is cloaked in that language as well: "Ubuntu flower girl". But the reality is that the Elders are more pragmatic than pacifist. Yes they attempted to broker peace with the GTA, but this is also an organization that allows and cooperates with an organization like the Fedayeen. It is an organization that built a pretty nice fleet despite their isolation. Battuta says they had the population and infrastructure to do more, but even so, they found the political will to build massive destroyers and assault frigates with a powerful bomber fleet to match when the only threat was a potential Shivan one, but which must have seemed very remote given the isolation. And yet they still built this fleet. These are not strict, moral pacifists. These are not flower children. And who knows (well outside the BP team) what Shambayla is? They have long range planning which yes has fostered immense economic gains and self-determination for the population, but there is an element of chess playing with people lives (including the GEFs) not unlike the Shivans and Vishnans (which makes sense given the latter's influence). 

Nor is the GTA some evil military dictatorship that treats its populace like North Korea. Far from it. However, it has been stated several times that the only thing keeping the disparate Terran colonies together and from revolting against the GTVA in a new Neo-Terran Front, slaughtering Vasudans and the status quo is fear of the Shivans (I exaggerate only slightly for effect). The GTA has forged itself into a weapon, those are the terms in which it thinks. Even Steele is such. Remember the conversation he has with the turncoat Elder? He immediately jumps to Shambayla being a weapon and the Elder laughs at him, saying something to the effect, "how little you understand us" (paraphrased obviously and to be fair, I would jump to it being a weapon or fleet too :P).

No doubt there would be collaborators (like the turncoat Elder), but there would also be civilian resistance to giving up their Elders to the GTA. And I don't think the GTA would respond well to it given their mentality. Again, this is not because the GTA are evil monsters, but they simply have the wrong toolset and mindset to occupy peacefully UEF-like planets. Their mentality is dealing with Shivans and the Neo-Terran Front (and related organization that have popped up since), not Henry David Thoreau. Essentially the GTA can't play their cards right, because they don't hold the right cards.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 04:24:36 pm by crazy_dave »

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The GTVA isn't a military autocracy.

Wait, I'm confused. Is the GTVA a democracy with authoritarian features or a dictatorship that superficially resembles a democracy? I've heard the devs say both.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
The GTVA isn't a military autocracy.

Wait, I'm confused. Is the GTVA a democracy with authoritarian features or a dictatorship that superficially resembles a democracy? I've heard the devs say both.

From what they've said, I *think* the GTVA is a democracy with a unified military bureaucracy within its governing - i.e. the elected civilians and the military leadership are fused in one council, run by an elected official. Devs, feel free to correct :). Steele has so much political power because he is so popular.

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
From what I understand, the GTVA functions as a democracy, but the military has carte blanche to do anything necessary to ensure the safety and continued survival of the Human and Vasudan species.

While that makes it, technically, a military dicatorship, the military has no reason in peacetime (or at least when the war isn't on GTVA ground) to meddle with civilian affairs, which means that in practice, the GTVA still functions democratically. The GTVA isn't North Korea. Elected civilian leaders are still controlling the daily Tev life, but in an emergency (be it shivan incursion or new insurgency), the military won't have to ask permission before acting accordingly and giving orders around.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Apollo

  • 28
  • Free Market Fascist
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
From what I understand, the GTVA functions as a democracy, but the military has carte blanche to do anything necessary to ensure the safety and continued survival of the Human and Vasudan species.

While that makes it, technically, a military dicatorship, the military has no reason in peacetime (or at least when the war isn't on GTVA ground) to meddle with civilian affairs, which means that in practice, the GTVA still functions democratically. The GTVA isn't North Korea. Elected civilian leaders are still controlling the daily Tev life, but in an emergency (be it shivan incursion or new insurgency), the military won't have to ask permission before acting accordingly and giving orders around.

Well it's more democratic than I thought, then.
Current Project - Eos: The Coward's Blade. Coming Soon (hopefully.)

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

  • Captain Obvious
  • 212
  • Frenchie McFrenchface
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
It sounds evident that if the GTVA military has full power, exercising that full power in an oppressive manner would only cause a massive eruption of civilian discontent, which would lead to a civil war or at least armed insurrections. Which is why the GTVA military would do its best not to blow on the embers, in a manner of speaking, if they can avoid it.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

Mod management tools     -     Wiki stuff!     -     Help us help you

666maslo666: Releasing a finished product is not a good thing! It is a modern fad.

SpardaSon21: it seems like you exist in a permanent state of half-joking misanthropy

Axem: when you put it like that, i sound like an insane person

bigchunk1: it's not retarded it's american!
bigchunk1: ...

batwota: steele's maneuvering for the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: you mispelled grâce
Awaesaar: grace
batwota: oh right :P
Darius: ah!
Darius: yes, i like that
MatthTheGeek: the way you just spelled it it means fat
Awaesaar: +accent I forgot how to keyboard
MatthTheGeek: or grease
Darius: the killing fat!
Axem: jabba does the coup de gras
MatthTheGeek: XD
Axem: bring me solo and a cookie

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Sorry, i was under the impression that it was GTVA who was the aggressor (kicking down the door), that it was GTVA that decimated 3rd and wounded 2nd fleets (kills those of your family that tried to kick him out), nuked Luna (throws a grenade into child's room).
Killing fighting soldiers in war is acceptable.  As for civilians, if they're collateral damage in a strike on a legitimate military target (and there's no reason to assume it wasn't), that's also acceptable. 

If you don't think that makes the bombing of Luna an acceptable military action in a time of war, I'm going to point you to the Jovian scorched earth protocols, which saw populated civilians stations destroyed by the UEF military to deny the Tevs a staging area.  Simak station in TBI is an example.  Some would say that's actually worse, because at least the civilians on Luna weren't killed by the ones meant to protect them. 

In any case, you cannot condemn the GTVA for the former without condemning the UEF for the latter.

 
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Sorry, i was under the impression that it was GTVA who was the aggressor (kicking down the door), that it was GTVA that decimated 3rd and wounded 2nd fleets (kills those of your family that tried to kick him out), nuked Luna (throws a grenade into child's room).
Killing fighting soldiers in war is acceptable.  As for civilians, if they're collateral damage in a strike on a legitimate military target (and there's no reason to assume it wasn't), that's also acceptable. 

If you don't think that makes the bombing of Luna an acceptable military action in a time of war, I'm going to point you to the Jovian scorched earth protocols, which saw populated civilians stations destroyed by the UEF military to deny the Tevs a staging area.  Simak station in TBI is an example.  Some would say that's actually worse, because at least the civilians on Luna weren't killed by the ones meant to protect them. 

In any case, you cannot condemn the GTVA for the former without condemning the UEF for the latter.

I don't think it was so much a condemnation, but an explanation of the point of view of the UEF citizenry who would not exactly be endeared to their GTA conquerors (and really what conquered people are?).

I wrote in either this thread or another (can't remember) that nothing either side has done would necessarily constitute a war crime - except the false flag operations each side ran (though the GTA doesn't know about the UEF one unlike the other way around). But the GTA are the aggressors and attacked the UEF without provocation.

From the UEF citizens' POV, the GTA are everything gloowa just said.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2013, 08:14:35 pm by crazy_dave »

 

Offline gloowa

  • 25
Re: GTVA victory aftermath (Major Spoilers)
Adm. Petrarch: For your excellent record of confirmed kills, you reached status of Ace.
Laporte: Dude, WTH are you doing in Indus briefing room?