Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Nico on February 01, 2005, 07:48:14 am
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Well, hem, voila, if anybody could post it ( just need the main lod with the turrets ), that would be kewl :)
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Ya ya.
What do you want it for out of curiosity?
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I'll let you guess :p
thanks, anyway :)
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There will be a High-poly Moloch soon...
Go ahead, Nico!
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Maybe, you can you a better job than I'm doing on it.:D
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Could be an animation, too guys. Or he could just want one for posterity, knowing Nico... anything is possible :P
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or maybe he wanted to ask for some random model file before he disapeared again so everyone would think he was hard at work on a new HTL model when in reality he was slacking off at some school doing things like 'homework', 'getting drunk', and 'makeing an ass of himself in front of women'.
here's me wishing Nico was a bigger fan of FS1 style Shivans than FS2 style.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
here's me wishing Nico was a bigger fan of FS1 style Shivans than FS2 style.
I am, definitively, but I have no idea how I'd make a moloch more "FS1"...
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If some admin can rename this to "high poly moloch", please...
Work in progress pics ( I've mostly worked on the front and the central neck thing ):
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip00.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip01.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip02.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip03.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip04.jpg) ( I like the last pic, it looks like a nasty insect :p )
I figured the moloch looked like some sort of big worm in armor( you can imagine that big neck being prolonged to the "head" and the engine exhausts, and you can even see holes in the ship where it shows ), so I'm just detaching the armor, adding a few polys here and there, that's my take on it.
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Interesting. It's an ass ugly ship, but that's not your fault. And I kinda like the armor around the top, having a gap in it. :nod:
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I always thought it looked pretty funky
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IIRC WeatherOP started to do one...
http://www.game-warden.com/forum/showthread.php?t=153
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obviously:
Originally posted by WeatherOp
Maybe, you can you a better job than I'm doing on it.:D
:p
Yeah, but I don't know how it looks like ( don't feel like registering on yet another forum ), and I have my own idea of how I want it, so might as well do mine.
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I require some advices:
I'm thinking of some small design changes, coz the moloch, yeah, is not a bad design, I think it has potential, but there's a couple major areas ( like the prow ) that are quite plain imho. So, point per point:
1) I'm thinking of splitting that prow in two, following the frontal leading edge
( from top, now you have /\,
after splitting you'd have something like / \ )
2) I'd keep the general shape, but completly break the whole smooth surface, maybe by making it into segments, like some sort of steps.
3) the back... well, for now, I have no idea on what to do with it. The same "step" method as for the prow wouldn't look right there, I think. But I'm actually thinking of doing the same split as for the prow, on the large pointy part that runs from the hangar to above the engines. Then I'd have that hangar incorporated to the "worm body", and have it diving deep inside it, ending in some sort of shivan hangar, which leads me to ( the dodgy ) point 4):
4) I don't really picture a shivan hangar like a terran one, I rather see some sort of bee hub, with cells. I don't actually compare shivans with bees, I just think it's, well, handy to have it that way, you can put cells in there w/o actually having to think about the fighters :p
Eventually, tho, the hangar will just be there if polycount isn't too high, otherwise, it'll just be a dead end, as usual. I'll most likely choose the ( very short ) dead end anyway, it prevents various problems, like " oh, I have to kill that moloch, let's go inside and pummel it from there".
5) the spikes. Mmh, well, the usual idea is to smooth them. I hate that. FS1 ships were not smooth, and they had much more character. They were angles over angles and some more angles. So I won't smooth the spkes, no, I'll make them less smoothed, in fact, like insect legs ( bad analogy, coz I surely don't want them to look organic, but you get the idea for the shape, it's a broken line ).
Actually, save for the worm body ( wouldn't be right otherwise ), I'll kill any blatant leading curve on the ship, I'll just keep surface curves.
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For comparisson, could you show both the original and this model untextured?
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No? If you don't remember how the original looks like, there's no point bringing it back to memory. The idea is to have that one to be good as it stands, not being compared to the old low poly ship.
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I agree completely. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing you take some extra liberties with the Moloch, as it's a pretty bland ship to begin with.
Oh, and I say if you can spare the polys, make the hanger. You can always shove a cover over the opening with the infamous "invisible" texture to keep fighters from getting in there.
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But then you couldn't get to the hangar, couldn't see it, and therefore, it would be useless ;)
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*pulls up the moloch model*
There really isn't much space in there for a bay, is there? What I was advocating though was putting it somewhere that was visible from outside, so that you could "see" the hanger without actually being in it. Most :v: models avoid having to deal with this by bending the hanger launch tube up and in, so that you can't see the end, but the Moloch doesn't.
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Yeah I know, it's just a plain "hut" dropped on top of the ship. bah, I'll see about the hangar at the very end, what bothers me more is the whole rear part. I think I'm gonna "blow it up" and make it 2 or 3 layers of "scales" that overlap a bit and open toward the rear and the underneath of the ship, ala lucifer, but less scattered.
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Add some random small spikes if the polycount isn't too high, and remember.
Spikes should be triangles!
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Originally posted by Nico
I require some advices:
I'm thinking of some small design changes, coz the moloch, yeah, is not a bad design, I think it has potential, but there's a couple major areas ( like the prow ) that are quite plain imho. So, point per point:
1) I'm thinking of splitting that prow in two, following the frontal leading edge
( from top, now you have /\,
after splitting you'd have something like / \ )
not sure exactly, if you have something in mind of what to do with this space then yes, (for example the charicteristic isosolese triangle with the three dots in it thats on the front of every FS1 shivan capship)
2) I'd keep the general shape, but completly break the whole smooth surface, maybe by making it into segments, like some sort of steps.
YES _defenately_
3) the back... well, for now, I have no idea on what to do with it. The same "step" method as for the prow wouldn't look right there, I think. But I'm actually thinking of doing the same split as for the prow, on the large pointy part that runs from the hangar to above the engines. Then I'd have that hangar incorporated to the "worm body", and have it diving deep inside it, ending in some sort of shivan hangar, which leads me to ( the dodgy ) point 4):
maybe the back would be a good place to try to replicate the armor plate things on the back of the lucifer
4) I don't really picture a shivan hangar like a terran one, I rather see some sort of bee hub, with cells. I don't actually compare shivans with bees, I just think it's, well, handy to have it that way, you can put cells in there w/o actually having to think about the fighters :p
Eventually, tho, the hangar will just be there if polycount isn't too high, otherwise, it'll just be a dead end, as usual. I'll most likely choose the ( very short ) dead end anyway, it prevents various problems, like " oh, I have to kill that moloch, let's go inside and pummel it from there".
I have recently made code changes that allow you to animate subobjects based on action, fighterbay launch is one of the suported actions
5) the spikes. Mmh, well, the usual idea is to smooth them. I hate that. FS1 ships were not smooth, and they had much more character. They were angles over angles and some more angles. So I won't smooth the spkes, no, I'll make them less smoothed, in fact, like insect legs ( bad analogy, coz I surely don't want them to look organic, but you get the idea for the shape, it's a broken line ).
Actually, save for the worm body ( wouldn't be right otherwise ), I'll kill any blatant leading curve on the ship, I'll just keep surface curves.
good kill them dead :)
just make sure that you keep the shape right, you need to make sure it has the exact visual impact as the origonal, eneraly what I do is I have the origonal model and I build a totaly new model just useing the origonal as a guide for proportion and angles
just in the five minutes sence I started reading this thread again I quickly threw together a general very rough scetch of what sort of stuff I'd do. (I also scribled the things I think I did wrong in the inital scetch on the scetch) one of the big things is I think some atempt should be made to put that damned shivan triangle thing on the front of it even if it has to be upside down. lots of sort of steped scale like paturns that have bits to them that end in almost-spikes (from wich longish narrow real spikes sometimes extend). meh, going into too much detail, you know what the paturns of FS1 Shivan ships are as well if not better than I do.
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hmm I probly should have rotated that, and made my comments more visable... :doubt:
oh well..
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Hmm, looks a bit like a pig actually.
I'd really love to see some Cain-like elements make their way into the Moloch theme, but I really don't see where it could go without severely changing the profile of the ship (which, as I understand it, is not Nico's goal here). The triangle on the front really bothers me, because like you Bob I'd love to see it incorporated somehow, I just don't see how it can be done. Nico, you've talked about perhaps splitting that front plate; could the traditional three-dots shape get recessed into the gap? I really have no idea how it'd ever work, but it's worth suggesting.
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like my comments say, I drew that too big
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Yeah, I see that now. I just don't see how you'd get it in there when there is a ventral seam running through that whole section.
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well if the triang was fliped so the tip was on the bottom I think it could be done.
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Originally posted by StratComm
The triangle on the front really bothers me, because like you Bob I'd love to see it incorporated somehow, I just don't see how it can be done.
I want that triangle too, and I see how to put it, don't worry.
Nico, you've talked about perhaps splitting that front plate; could the traditional three-dots shape get recessed into the gap? I really have no idea how it'd ever work, but it's worth suggesting. [/B]
Something like that :p ( and I won't need to put it up side down either ). Just need to find the best map, iirc, that triangle is quite blurry on all the ships :doubt:.
Actually, it'd be open in 3 segments, because under it, you have a central spike that I don't want to break in two segments. ( picture the sand worms mouth from dune, it's something like that )
Bob: about that hangar thing, I don't know at all how I'd do that... I can't picture any cool looking AND original door that would be used by the shivans.
Finally, I could use the lods in 3ds format too, since I'm modifying the design :p
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wasn't there the possiblity to switch an invisible poly from solid to non solid via sexps?. I thought it was made specifically for hangars, and I was planning to do it for colossus too.
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Title changed :)
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you could simply do one of those iris style openings
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Can we get a wireframe view as well?
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This is my design suggestion:
(http://img147.exs.cx/img147/336/moloch2yt.jpg)
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Originally posted by Bobboau
you could simply do one of those iris style openings
Mmh, what was the largest ship the moloch could launch? If it's the seraphim, it would have to be a very large iris, and it would need room to open all around it, not on just one or two sides. it's just not practical, imho.
DaBrain: as Bob guessed before, and as I often claimed from back when I joined HLP, and as was displayed by the first mod I ever released for FS ( the SF chimera ), I'm a fan of the FS1 shivan designs, not the FS2 ones. For some reason, they've decided to put spikes everywhere on the shivan ships in FS2, but they were not like that in FS1. There's no way I'll turn the moloch into a sea urchin :)
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Ok, I have to admit the spikes on the top are ugly.
But I like spikes. :)
Well, I doubt there is a way to make this ship look FS1-ish, without completely altering the design.
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To be honest with you, I think it's impossible indeed, but I'll try. At least, I'll try not to make it even uglier than it already was :p
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I'm sure it will turn out better than the old model. :yes:
*notice to myself: put the Moloch maps on my high-res list*
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We'd all be better served if Nico can finish the geometry first and make a custom UV map. Then you and LS can prettify the custom UV so it will look uber-nice :nod:
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I think that, assuming he'll find the time and (more important) the right mood, he would be able to do an excellent texturing job on his own;)
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Yeah, well, fighter style UV is definitively planed :)
update:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip05.jpg)
Funnily enough, while carving into that thing, I extruded what looks a lot like a pointy version of the lucifer front. I've detached it an made it a separate body in the "head". That's where I put the triangle thing, as you can see. I've cut the prrow into some sort of geometric shape, I'll work more on that.
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip06.jpg)
From that shot, it looks quite different from the original, so, to avoid complaints:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip07.jpg)
I've kept the profile view, it's almost identical, save for the dent in the prow, under the "worm" head.
All in all, save from a couple specific angles, like the second shot, you can tell right away that it's a moloch, even with the new front.
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Sorry to be blunt, but I don't like the new prow. It's too different, and not Shivan IMO - there's no [V] precedent fir that kind of geometry.
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"Screw canon!"
:nervous:
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Sorry to be blunt, but I don't like the new prow. It's too different, and not Shivan IMO - there's no [V] precedent fir that kind of geometry.
Then you won't use it :p
That being said, was there any precedent to the original moloch prow? Is there any other ship that has something remotly alike in the shivan fleet? Mmh?
Thought so.
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That's not bad.
The changed would be more apparent if you posted a wireframe view.
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:wtf: aren't the changes apparent enouhg already?
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip08.jpg)
Here's a view w/o the maps, you can't make anything out of the wireframe view.
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I really like it actually. The moloch was always a bit of a misfit, and this, while still different from the rest of the Shivan fleet, is certainly more along the technology and style of the rest than the original naval ship's bow, etc that was there before.
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just remember the moloch from the case, shooting the hole through that Deimos, it must be that badass, it looks too round up top there, keep it sharp and deadly
@DaB, your Moloch looks like a crab. Not an insult, it just really resembles a crab to me. I want to crack it open and devour the succulent meat inside
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Originally posted by Deepblue
"Screw canon!"
It looks cool, that's all that really counts.
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Nico, the bulk of the changes have only just now become apparent. The changes on the corridor were very hard to discover on the textured pic.
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Originally posted by Turambar
your Moloch looks like a crab. Not an insult, it just really resembles a crab to me. I want to crack it open and devour the succulent meat inside
...oookay.
Personally, I really like Nico's Moloch Remake. The original never looked good to me (reminded me of a pig, or something). Nicos makes it into a more insect-like ship (those things on the side of hte prow remind me of mandibles).
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i like it:D :D :D it deff now looks Shivan and menacing.
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It hasn't lost its FS2-style, in my opinion. Insect-like Shivans were all around FS2; Think of the Mara or the Rakshasa.
[EDIT]I don't understand HLP nowadays: Black Wolf and Nico posted AFTER I posted this and their posts are above mine.
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Originally posted by Nico
Then you won't use it :p
That being said, was there any precedent to the original moloch prow? Is there any other ship that has something remotly alike in the shivan fleet? Mmh?
Thought so.
Actually, I will, as will lots of others. Assuming you release it, It'll be put in the media VP and nobody will bother making a new, better one because one will already exist. If I choose to, I can replace or overwrite it, but a lot of newbies won't know how.
Personally, I consider that kind of relatively drastic change to be reimagining the ship rather than high polifying it, and reimagined ships mean you're changing the game, and breaking rather than bending canon. That's a problem for me. Given your sig, I guess this means that we differ, and since you're making the model, my opinions probably not going to count for an awful lot, but that's not going to stop me voicing it.
As for a precedent, it's a V model. It doesn't need a precedent, as it sets its own. Like it or not, that's how shivans design their ship prows. That's not the only way they design them of course, but it's one of the ways. Your new one isn't one of the ways they design their prows unless V says that it is.
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3 people saying they like it only two hours after I posted, that's enough to make me think I'm right :)
There, a pic from the back, just coz I liked that shot:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip09.jpg)
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personally, I like a lot the use of a multiple layers of plating disconnected from each other, and I don't dislike the shape of the grey plating on the prow (but you should work a bit more on it since the profile is too "heavy" imho), what I don't like is the inner part of the nose, the bubble. It is too small compared to the rest of the ship, ruining the overall "elegance", and compared to the prow's grey plating it should fill much more than now the space between the dents.
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oh, and I'm completely for the reimagery party.
screw the canon whenever needed!:)
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No.
Absolutely no. It is not instantly recognizable as a Moloch. It's recognizable instantly as some god-awful fugly wannabe.
It's also instantly obvious that you will not be able to place the turrets with the same fields of fire as they had originally, and therefore this ship is NOT a canidate for the media vps, as it would have noticible changes in the gameplay.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Personally, I consider that kind of relatively drastic change to be reimagining the ship rather than high polifying it, and reimagined ships mean you're changing the game, and breaking rather than bending canon. That's a problem for me. Given your sig, I guess this means that we differ, and since you're making the model, my opinions probably not going to count for an awful lot, but that's not going to stop me voicing it.
I never prevented anybody from voicing their opinion, nor can I force anybody to like what I do. I know my take on things can be controversial, but as you said, I'm the one who made it, and the first criteria for e, is if I like it or not. I prefer the way I've done it to the way it was before, and that's all that counts :)
As for the vp file, it doesn't HAVE to be put in, I surely don't want to force my tastes regarding shivan ships on others, and I'm fully aware that I always did things that many people will hate coz, well, I indeed don't care much about canon, but that's only my view, and I don't have anything against people sticking to it. I don't make a rule of automatically changing the original stuff, I just do it when I don't like it ( I didn't change the perseus, for exemple ).
As for a precedent, it's a V model. It doesn't need a precedent, as it sets its own. Like it or not, that's how shivans design their ship prows. That's not the only way they design them of course, but it's one of the ways. Your new one isn't one of the ways they design their prows unless V says that it is.[/COLOR] [/B]
Like it or not? Mmh, no, no problem with that, I don't like it, and I'm changing it :D
Suppose, if that moloch ends up in the SCP vp file, I think you're right, regardless of tastes, people would use it, just because removing it would be bothersome for most. After a while, everybody will get used to it, and see it as the normal design, and would do with it, weither they like it or not. So it would end up, in some way, being the official one, weither it's "canon" or not, since it would be widely used, and nobody, I dare think, would want to go back to the original version after a while. Therefore, where would the "canon" factor go?
Take the Starwars case. Up till now, everybody, I think, considered the Z95 to be canon, it was in official ( from what I've heard ) books, games ( games made by lucas art, and so Lucas agreed to it, I suppose, since he's known for eing quite nosy ), etc. But with episode3, he just scraps it, along with everything people considered canon up till then ( the dreadnaught, the victory, etc ) and throws in new ships, like that weird ass 6 winged fighter. You can bet that the next SW games will have those ships, not the old headhunter and others. Canon killed by new canon.
In my opinion, canon does not exist, you just have standards that can be be changed on a whim, when it's handy, useful, or even when it's useless ( there was no harm in using the Z95 in ep03, and not that ugly new fighter ).
If you take FS1, the only ship that had "beams" was the lucifer. No other. Back then it was then considered canon that the demon or the lilth wouldn't have beams. But they do in FS2. They could have made a new mesh for the lilith in FS2, and there would be gone the canon ieda that the lilth looks like the cain.
So you'll argue that if it's not :v:, it's not canon. But since I don't care about canon, and as :v: doesn't have the monopoly on FS design anymore, well, so what? If tomorrow :V: was starting working on FS3, and if I was hired by V, and they took my high poly Moloch for it, all of a sudden, would you agree to it? I think not, I hope.
So, enough with that sterile canon thing, the only thing that matters to me is: do I like it or not?
Regardless of canon, do you like it or not?
That's all that matters to me.
Please forgive me for te pointless essay, btw ;)
Mmh, that must be full of typos, but I really don't feel like reading all that again to correct mistakes :p
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
It's also instantly obvious that you will not be able to place the turrets with the same fields of fire as they had originally, and therefore this ship is NOT a canidate for the media vps, as it would have noticible changes in the gameplay.
Noticeable my ass. I have the turrets in the file, and save for moving them right or left a couple meters, there's nothing different with them.
But as I said, I don't care if it's in the vp or not. See, I made it for myself first, others do what they want with it after, I don't care.
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Actually (and I have checked) the turret locations and fields of fire can easily remain exactly the same as they are on the stock model. The only place that the gaps would even begin to alter turret placement or FOV is for the two turrets on the flat part of the stock model's nose, and there should be room enough up there to squeeze them on top of the seperated plates as it is. Everything else is perfectly fine.
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Nice timing Nico :)
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I'm liking everything about this model... unfortunately to say, except for the nose. While I don't mind the 2 panels you've got up, I'd perfur to see something like a little slimmer version of the original nose configuration, between the 2 panels... kind of the same way you did the rear of the ship.
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Yup, and you're right, the two turrets you mentioned are the two ones that have to be moved sideways. To be exact, if you take the width of the turret as a unit, you have to move it 1.5 units to the side. That would surely have a noticeable changes on the gameplay, that's for sure.
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*cough*
Upper aft laser mount. Where it would go is flat-out gone, and to move it somewhere nearby means it will fire through the ship with the same FOV and normals, and will not be able to be hit from angles it previously was.
The space for the turrets to either side the front engine used to have a small hood-like structure around it which prevented you from targeting them from the side. This is most definitely gone and the turrets can be targeted and hit directly from outside their original FOV, which was previously impossible. Although it's difficult to tell from the pictures you've posted, it also appears the plane they were on has been swept forward, which would make them even more vunerable if they had the same normals and FOVs.
You could also fire up through the giant split in the bow and hit the turrets there, knocking them out without getting hit in return much more easily then with the original Moloch.
Your ass, it appears, is quite exposed...
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
[...]
Well, listen, I have the file, and I assure you, the turrets don't need being moved anymore than the little adjustments so they don't hover at one meter above or the hull, or aren't half intersecting with it. There's no hood like structure around the front engine turrets, what protects them are the spikes next to them. That area has not been moved either. The upper aft turret base is not gone.
There's the original low poly moloch in the scene ( yes, I actually think about what I'm doing, I'm not making random changes in a whim ), so I can check weither the turrets are more vulnerable or not. The only different gameplay issue is if someone is willing to slip between the plates and risk bumping everywhere and die from repeated collision.
Then if you still don't agree, well, I don't care.
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Theres a lot of room for improvement in the fs2 ships but redoing them to look like fs1 ships is daft imo, you wouldnt remake the perseus look more like the herc for example. That said apart from the split bow I cant see sfa different in the ships, infact it looks to me like you caught exactly what the original designer was aiming for.
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Thanks.
There:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip10.jpg)
That's the original turrets, not moved, nothing. So you can exactly see how much I'll have to move them so they seat right on the hull. If that's not enough for you, well, too bad.
Turret case closed.
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In my opinion, canon does not exist, you just have standards that can be be changed on a whim, when it's handy, useful, or even when it's useless ( there was no harm in using the Z95 in ep03, and not that ugly new fighter ).
I agree on this one. I think Lucas is acting more than a little retarded by rewriting stuff that's been established in officially liscened SW products, but that's somewhat peripheral.
If you take FS1, the only ship that had "beams" was the lucifer. No other. Back then it was then considered canon that the demon or the lilth wouldn't have beams. But they do in FS2. They could have made a new mesh for the lilith in FS2, and there would be gone the canon ieda that the lilth looks like the cain.
So you'll argue that if it's not , it's not canon. But since I don't care about canon, and as :v: doesn't have the monopoly on FS design anymore, well, so what?
The thing with V though is that while they could have done all these things to break canon between FS1 and FS2, they didn't, with the exception of a few, relatively minor things like the Sol nodes. The beams can be accepted as the natural result of the passage of time, and a Shivan response to a greater percieved threat from the Terrans and Vasudans.
And while V may not neccesarily have a monopoly on FS design persay with all the mods that are coming out, this isn'tsupposed to be a new ship here, right? The basic, non split prow is one of those things that you only realise is significant when it's gone.
If tomorrow :V: was starting working on FS3, and if I was hired by V, and they took my high poly Moloch for it, all of a sudden, would you agree to it? I think not, I hope.
That's a difficult question. I guess I'd have to hope that V simply wouldn;t do that, but if they did, then I guess I'd have to accept it.
If I could, I'd like to make a suggestion... finish the model as you want it done, use it for your own gaming and release it as a mod for people to use if they choose, but perhaps you could hold off on submitting it to (I assume) WMCoolmon for the Media VP until some sort of poll was undertaken?
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
If I could, I'd like to make a suggestion... finish the model as you want it done, use it for your own gaming and release it as a mod for people to use if they choose, but perhaps you could hold off on submitting it to (I assume) WMCoolmon for the Media VP until some sort of poll was undertaken? [/COLOR]
Well, I never submitted anything to WMCoolmon, I didn't submit the perseus, and I won't submit the Moloch. They include my models if they want, I'm glad if they do, well, no big deal if they don't, I guess if something is not included, one day or another, somebody else will take his chance at it and will have more success. So, by all means, yeah, I'm totally for a poll, if someone thinks it could go into the vp file.
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Oh, and for the record, I do quite like what you've done with the rest of the ship. It's just that prow that I'm having difficulties with. :)
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Originally posted by Nico
Well, listen, I have the file, and I assure you, the turrets don't need being moved anymore than the little adjustments so they don't hover at one meter above or the hull, or aren't half intersecting with it. There's no hood like structure around the front engine turrets, what protects them are the spikes next to them. That area has not been moved either. The upper aft turret base is not gone.
Let's do a little illustration:
The upper turret used to be mounted:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/molochwip09ERROR.jpg)
Now it has to be mounted:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/molochwip09ERROR2.jpg)
Where
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/molochwip09ERROR3.jpg)
these will get in the way.
Originally posted by Nico
There's the original low poly moloch in the scene ( yes, I actually think about what I'm doing, I'm not making random changes in a whim ), so I can check weither the turrets are more vulnerable or not. The only different gameplay issue is if someone is willing to slip between the plates and risk bumping everywhere and die from repeated collision.
:wtf:
A little more illustration.
This
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/molochwip07ERROR.jpg)
was not taken from between the plates. And it probably gets worse if the angle is further above horizontal.
Nor was
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/molochwip06ERROR.jpg)
this.
Or even
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/molochwip05ERROR.jpg)
this.
And I wouldn't have to be between the plates to hit the front centerline turret, or even the side ones, through
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v307/ngtm1r/molochwip05ERROR2.jpg)
here.
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Originally posted by Nico
If that's not enough for you, well, too bad.
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I'm just making sure you understand that it's not going in the mediaVP.
Oh, and by the way. Your "not enough" comment is dependant on your "between the plates" comment.
Which has been proved false. You don't have a leg to stand on here.
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
I'm just making sure you understand that it's not going in the mediaVP.
I'm not looking for that, but, afaik, that's not for you to decide.
Oh, and by the way. Your "not enough" comment is dependant on your "between the plates" comment.
What? edit: no, whatever, don't explain, I don't want to know.
Which has been proved false. You don't have a leg to stand on here. [/B]
You've proven nothing, but if you think that red lines drawn on pics of a "breezes" WORK IN PROGRESS model do you any good, well I'm glad for you.
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You tried to defend this WORK IN PROGRESS model against these very points, and now that you've failed you want to use WORK IN PROGRESS as an excuse? WTFH? You just keep switching your argument.
It's really simple: You said that if it wasn't enough that people had to get between the plates to hit this stuff, too bad. But they don't have to get between the plates.
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ok ok, fine. Will you get off my leg now, or failing that, just send me a mail when you're done.
I think I'll repeat myself one last time, coz I've not written it enough: yeah, I'll find any lame argument that I can so you get off me coz I ****ING DON'T CARE. How many times do I have to tell you?
So ok, you've won, you're the best, Youpee! Yatta! Wheeee!
Darn, and people will wonder why I lose my cool.
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Damnit people, let him finish whatever he wants. If enough of you feel that it'll break canon, then petition wmcoolmon to exclusde it from the media VP. Stop *****ing at the model's author. Jeez. You really discourage modders from continuing work when you whine all the time.
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Yes, I agree.
1st: You don't have to use it. If it's included in the mediavp, it'll take all of, what, a minute(?) to remove. :rolleyes:
2nd: If you don't like it, fine, well enough. You don't need to get into an argument about why it sucks IN-DEPTH across 1 1/2 pages.
3rd: Make your own model if you're so dissatisfied with the direction in which this one is going. :p
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Actually, I will, as will lots of others. Assuming you release it, It'll be put in the media VP and nobody will bother making a new, better one because one will already exist. If I choose to, I can replace or overwrite it, but a lot of newbies won't know how.
Aren't High-poly ships an OPTIONAL download?:wtf:
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Generally, I'd like to keep models as close to the originals as possible for the mediaVP. However, as long as they are an improvement and still look enough like the original model to be recognizable, they're still valid candidates.
If people ***** and moan enough then yes, I won't include it in the mediaVP because I generally try to please the most amount of people with the least amount of complexity/work for them and myself. That's no reason for bugging Nico because he's deviating from the norm. If you don't want to see this Moloch model in the mediaVP, fine, start a poll or bug me about it. I'd rather people people worked on high-poly versions than not, because they didn't want to be flamed for deviating from the original in some way the poster didn't like.
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yeah do it yourself or stop moaning and just don't use it. Giving suggestions/critics is different than rejecting something at all nitpicking over minimal things.
I may understand arguing over the aspect of the nose (a big change indeed), but you are arguing about a couple of turretts placed offset and a minor change in the fov of some of them. I really hope that you are kidding about that, I may agree that the blind spots should remain the same of the original models, if present, but that's up, and this one could be easiliy fixed.
Hell, the gameplay doesn't change when you make modifications, but only if those modifications affect the way you play. You could even change the number of turretts and their position and don't change AT ALL the gameplay if you do it wisely, preserving the same blind spots and the real effectiveness of the defenses.
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Originally posted by KARMA
what I don't like is the inner part of the nose, the bubble. It is too small compared to the rest of the ship, ruining the overall "elegance", and compared to the prow's grey plating it should fill much more than now the space between the dents.
Missed that. Too small? I didn't change it, if I change it, there's gonna be another storm falling on me :p
More seriously, I was considering lowering the front of it, actually.
edit: like that:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip11.jpg)
And no, it doesn't require me to move the turret, it's just on another spot on the thing now.
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put more plates or something in that void n the front, try to make it sort of come together or something. maybe have some sort of extenion from the top part (wich doesn't look like you've done much with)
the ass end is looking sexy thoug, are we gona get some of those big red block engines? that would be so much cooler than the crap V did with them (why the hell did they abandon the big red block engines!? they are easy to make requier virtualy no textureing and look oh so cool)
don't worry about the nay sayers, I got all sorts of crap from people when I made the HTL deimos, and with Shivan ships I think you realy have a lot of room to play with, especaly with the uglier ships.
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mmh, well, i'm a fan of the red block engines too ( all my custom fighters have those save for the hydra ), but they would greatly benefit from tru glows, imho. Or that glow bar thing I requested, at least, in lack of something better.
I've narrowed the opening on the front.
How do you like the bent down "head"?
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(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/859/product-103859.jpg)
remember this fearful shape
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Originally posted by Nico
3 people saying they like it only two hours after I posted, that's enough to make me think I'm right :)
There, a pic from the back, just coz I liked that shot:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip09.jpg)
Is it just me, or does the back of the Moloch look like the underside of a bigass Shivan Herc Mk. II?
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Originally posted by Turambar
(http://images.ciao.com/ide/images/products/normal/859/product-103859.jpg)
remember this fearful shape
Take note that the Deimos in that pic has 4 extra dual-turret mounts (the sides of the darker grey area) :hammer:.
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There, I extended some kind of plateform between the two jaws, and I reduced the gap between them:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip12.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip13.jpg)
No more opening on the central missile turret.
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yeah, that looks better, it still has the added detail without changeing the shape too much.
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Okay.
I take it all back.
Ownage.
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glad to hear, hem, read ^^
Now, save for the engines, I don't know what to do with the rear, and that's bothersome.
And damn it's 6.20AM, I forgot to go to bed :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by ngtm1r
Okay.
I take it all back.
Ownage.
Agreed!
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great not put it in game!
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wow you wen't from it's **** it it owns in like one minor change :lol:
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Hmm, the thing about the moloch is that unlike all other shivan ships (fs2) it's spike are pointing backwards not forwards. Now, look at ythe picture showing the back (4 pics up) and imagine that as the front. I'm not suggesting anything, but it's cooler.
And ownage btw.
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Hmm...
Reverse it, make some slight texture modifications, and you've got yourself a new ship. ;) (The SCv Hcolom?)
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:yes:
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Nose looks better now. :nod:
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yeah much better
I meant that, disconnecting the bubble from the prows plating, it was smaller since originally you didn't feel it as a standalone but as part of a major structure covered by that nose grey plating. The result was like a men with a big body but a very small head ( someone remember the film beetlejuice?).
But it seem much much better now
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Major improvement, the first changes are good but this is perfect.
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Nico's Moloch notwithstanding.....
Originally posted by DaBrain
This is my design suggestion:
(http://img147.exs.cx/img147/336/moloch2yt.jpg)
I like this :D
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Originally posted by Trivial Psychic
Agreed!
I want even more polies! DaBrain's is the best, especially with the subtle cues taken from the Sathanas and Ravana.
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@Nico If you want to use tile maps, or if you want to create an UV map, you may want to use this glow map.
I think it fixes the ugliest part of the Moloch.
http://www.8ung.at/dabrain/CruisTileS5A-glow.pcx
@Woolie Wool You want that mesh?
Just open the *.pof in Lith and use 'subdivide' twice, then use 'optimize'. :) That's it. Well it has way too many polys now, but who cares. ;7
Ah, and it has some ... holes... :p
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Dabrain: I don't have LithUnwrap, so I can't use it as is.
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**** me that's pointy!
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(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip06.jpg )
:jaw:
I like that new front, old one looked like it would be good for ramming things
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Made it look entirely too much like a praying mantis from that angle for my liking. The new version is better :)
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Originally posted by Nico
Yeah, well, fighter style UV is definitively planed :)
update:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip05.jpg)
Funnily enough, while carving into that thing, I extruded what looks a lot like a pointy version of the lucifer front. I've detached it an made it a separate body in the "head". That's where I put the triangle thing, as you can see. I've cut the prrow into some sort of geometric shape, I'll work more on that.
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip06.jpg)
From that shot, it looks quite different from the original, so, to avoid complaints:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip07.jpg)
I've kept the profile view, it's almost identical, save for the dent in the prow, under the "worm" head.
All in all, save from a couple specific angles, like the second shot, you can tell right away that it's a moloch, even with the new front.
Holy ****. You ABSOLUTELY hit the nail on the head with this one. The very definition of Shivan, right there. :nod:
Absolutely stunning work, looking forward to having it ingame. I always hated the Moloch design. :)
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Maybe having the original side-by-side as a comparison would help me, but as of right now, I'm seeing even Nico's most recent update as deviating a little too much. I'm not an insane purist (I like the hi-poly Deimos, for instance), but I feel things should be kept as close as possible, a la the high-poly Herc. Obviously, Nico can do whatever he wants with it, but I might have a few objections to it going in the Media VP. I'll have to re-check the retail model, though.
As for a lot of people hating the original Moloch, I couldn't disagree more; it's one of my favorite Shivan ships. It's big, badass, spiky, ugly, and a nightmare to fight against, the way a good Shivan ship should be. :D If you want to talk ugly, look at the Rakshasha...a log with spikes on the ends. :p
P.S. Those red Shivan block engines were ridiculous-looking. :p
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Ironically, Nico's last update did more to bring the thing back in to "canon" than anything else. He changed how the textures were applied on the nose area, and there is the addition to the Lucifer-style front end, but neither of those is even particularly noticable except from the front where, IMHO, the Moloch was its ugliest before. That last shot that Lightspeed quoted is actually older.
EDIT: Board time really is FUBAR'd. I've got the last post in the thread, but Raa has it in the forum listing :wtf:
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What a strange ship...
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The Moloch was my favorite ship when I first played the FS2 demo.
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Originally posted by Mongoose
P.S. Those red Shivan block engines were ridiculous-looking. :p
Guess you're not gonna like the next update :p
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Not gonna do a fighter style mapping after all, it looks good enough as it is, at least the moloch doesn't have friggin huge sections covered with one single overtiled map.
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The armour looks kinda dodgy though, maybe just map those parts.
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well, I want to see it!!!
*is impatient*
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Originally posted by Nico
Not gonna do a fighter style mapping after all, it looks good enough as it is, at least the moloch doesn't have friggin huge sections covered with one single overtiled map.
Fewer maps mean HTL works much more efficiently.
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I'd imagine Nico knows that as well as anyone; tiled maps do have the advantage of being higher resolution, so it's not like it's a total loss or anything. As long as he doesn't introduce any more maps, the model won't be significantly worse than the stock one anyway. We're only talking about four, which is as much as some fighters.
Though it would be useful to use custom maps for the turrets, as right now most of them are using 2 maps for something like 6 faces.
EDIT: 5. I forgot that he's using that Lucy front end, and it's taking a special map. That said, it could probably be folded in with the "tile" that's being used for the spikes if he's careful about it.
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Oh, I like that last update to the nose. Kickin' ass.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Fewer maps mean HTL works much more efficiently.
four or five of them is ok, so long as he makes them all worth while (ubber poly count)
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Nico, that's great work. :yes:
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Originally posted by StratComm
EDIT: 5. I forgot that he's using that Lucy front end, and it's taking a special map.
Well, yeah, for now, it's using the cain map.
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Wow. I missed this. Fantastic stuf, Ven- uh, Nico :) Looking forward to seeing your take on proper Shivan engines...
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That last shot that Lightspeed quoted is actually older.
That's because I like the ones I posted the most. :)
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awesome, man...
i'm not a big fan of the mandible-things though... at least make em thicker! with alpha 2 out there, nothing that thin is safe from being smashed ;)
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Originally posted by Grimloq
awesome, man...
i'm not a big fan of the mandible-things though... at least make em thicker! with alpha 2 out there, nothing that thin is safe from being smashed ;)
Yeah, there are realy god odds he/she will crash into it and knock out somthing vital.
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polycount?
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Originally posted by Bobboau
four or five of them is ok, so long as he makes them all worth while (ubber poly count)
He's well withtin the limit, though, right (15) ?
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Originally posted by Roanoke
He's well withtin the limit, though, right (15) ?
The limit isn't representative of anything like the optimum arrangement for performace.
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Originally posted by Nico
There, I extended some kind of plateform between the two jaws, and I reduced the gap between them:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip12.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip13.jpg)
No more opening on the central missile turret.
Ah yes, thats much better. Before the prow felt (to me) to be a little too airy and fragile. Now its got that solid look about it that is the main strength of the Cannon Moloch design (to me).
Keep at it Nico:yes:
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Well, for now I'm too busy, it'll have to wait for the week after next one.
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We, the HLP community, are patient and ready to wait!
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Originally posted by Grimloq
polycount?
Just checked.
For now, w/o the turrets, it's 978 polys, and 1490 triangles. That's quite moderate for a corvette, I think, which is a good thing. After I've added the FS1 engines ( I will comepltly disregard any comment about that, btw, I prefer them that way, some share my opinion, so I'm happy with it, period ), I probably won't do much more changes to it. But I'll have to completly redo the turrets, coz they're just... well, primitive ( bawhahaha, that was funny ).
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Is the forward beam gun gonna be on that triangle thing?
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not gonna move the turrets.
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update on the back section:
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip14.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip15.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip16.jpg)
(http://freespaceserver.cjb.net/venom/fs+/molochwip17.jpg)
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Looking great. I'm still eager to see what it is that you plan on doing with the engines themselves though.
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I'm eager to see what I plan on doing with the engines too, to be honest :nervous:
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Now that looks like the Moloch. I'm flip-flopping; this thing is looking awesome. :D
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I think something like the engines on the mephesto freighter might be good.
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http://game-warden.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=439
I like WeatherOP's engines, but his armor on the neck is just rediculous
THe engines are good though, and its not really like you see them
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Very nice! :D
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Indeed, looking better all the time. :D
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Model looks veddy veddy nice, not so sure about the textures though.. I'd need to see it in game I suppose. :)
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It's the same maps as the original, at the same places :p
Anyway, since I'm playing WoW... a lot :nervous:... you're not likely to see that ingame in the near future :p
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WOW is EVILLLL.... you see, that's why I uninstalled every game I had (except for FS2).
You have to will yourself to work on models/campaigns insted of playing new games.
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MMO's eat your life away, thats why i stay away from them
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Like Lightspeed, I loved the "Praying Mantis" Moloch.
I would love to see it release someday as "Moloch experimental" or something.
It is (or rather was) the only shivan I remember which was amazingly good looking. And that for a alient insect species has to count for something.
I loved the darn thing. Please do release it in case someone (Inferno or other campaign) could use it in their roster.