[StratComm]

Nice timing Nico

[Trivial Psychic]

I'm liking everything about this model... unfortunately to say, except for the nose.  While I don't mind the 2 panels you've got up, I'd perfur to see something like a little slimmer version of the original nose configuration, between the 2 panels... kind of the same way you did the rear of the ship.

[Nico]

Yup, and you're right, the two turrets you mentioned are the two ones that have to be moved sideways. To be exact, if you take the width of the turret as a unit, you have to move it 1.5 units to the side. That would surely have a noticeable changes on the gameplay, that's for sure.

[NGTM-1R]

*cough*

Upper aft laser mount. Where it would go is flat-out gone, and to move it somewhere nearby means it will fire through the ship with the same FOV and normals, and will not be able to be hit from angles it previously was.

The space for the turrets to either side the front engine used to have a small hood-like structure around it which prevented you from targeting them from the side. This is most definitely gone and the turrets can be targeted and hit directly from outside their original FOV, which was previously impossible. Although it's difficult to tell from the pictures you've posted, it also appears the plane they were on has been swept forward, which would make them even more vunerable if they had the same normals and FOVs.

You could also fire up through the giant split in the bow and hit the turrets there, knocking them out without getting hit in return much more easily then with the original Moloch.

Your ass, it appears, is quite exposed...

[Nico]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
[...]

Well, listen, I have the file, and I assure you, the turrets don't need being moved anymore than the little adjustments so they don't hover at one meter above or the hull, or aren't half intersecting with it. There's no hood like structure around the front engine turrets, what protects them are the spikes next to them. That area has not been moved either. The upper aft turret base is not gone.
There's the original low poly moloch in the scene ( yes, I actually think about what I'm doing, I'm not making random changes in a whim ), so I can check weither the turrets are more vulnerable or not. The only different gameplay issue is if someone is willing to slip between the plates and risk bumping everywhere and die from repeated collision.
Then if you still don't agree, well, I don't care.

[Gank]

Theres a lot of room for improvement in the fs2 ships but redoing them to look like fs1 ships is daft imo, you wouldnt remake the perseus look more like the herc for example. That said apart from the split bow I cant see sfa different in the ships, it looks to me like you caught exactly what the original designer was aiming for.

[Nico]

Thanks.

There:

That's the original turrets, not moved, nothing. So you can exactly see how much I'll have to move them so they seat right on the hull. If that's not enough for you, well, too bad.
Turret case closed.

[Black Wolf]

In my opinion, canon does not exist, you just have standards that can be be changed on a whim, when it's handy, useful, or even when it's useless ( there was no harm in using the Z95 in ep03, and not that ugly new fighter ).

I agree on this one. I think Lucas is acting more than a little retarded by rewriting stuff that's been established in officially liscened SW products, but that's somewhat peripheral.

If you take FS1, the only ship that had "beams" was the lucifer. No other. Back then it was then considered canon that the demon or the lilth wouldn't have beams. But they do in FS2. They could have made a new mesh for the lilith in FS2, and there would be gone the canon ieda that the lilth looks like the cain.
So you'll argue that if it's not , it's not canon. But since I don't care about canon, and as doesn't have the monopoly on FS design anymore, well, so what?

The thing with V though is that while they could have done all these things to break canon between FS1 and FS2, they didn't, with the exception of a few, relatively minor things like the Sol nodes. The beams can be accepted as the natural result of the passage of time, and a Shivan response to a greater percieved threat from the Terrans and Vasudans.

And while V may not neccesarily have a monopoly on FS design persay with all the mods that are coming out, this isn'tsupposed to be a new ship here, right? The basic, non split prow is one of those things that you only realise is significant when it's gone.

If tomorrow :V: was starting working on FS3, and if I was hired by V, and they took my high poly Moloch for it, all of a sudden, would you agree to it? I think not, I hope.

That's a difficult question. I guess I'd have to hope that V simply wouldn;t do that, but if they did, then I guess I'd have to accept it.

If I could, I'd like to make a suggestion... finish the model as you want it done, use it for your own gaming and release it as a mod for people to use if they choose, but perhaps you could hold off on submitting it to (I assume) WMCoolmon for the Media VP until some sort of poll was undertaken?

[Nico]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
If I could, I'd like to make a suggestion... finish the model as you want it done, use it for your own gaming and release it as a mod for people to use if they choose, but perhaps you could hold off on submitting it to (I assume) WMCoolmon for the Media VP until some sort of poll was undertaken? [/COLOR]

Well, I never submitted anything to WMCoolmon, I didn't submit the perseus, and I won't submit the Moloch. They include my models if they want, I'm glad if they do, well, no big deal if they don't, I guess if something is not included, one day or another, somebody else will take his chance at it and will have more success. So, by all means, yeah, I'm totally for a poll, if someone thinks it could go into the vp file.

[Black Wolf]

Oh, and for the record, I do quite like what you've done with the rest of the ship. It's just that prow that I'm having difficulties with.

[NGTM-1R]

Originally posted by Nico


Well, listen, I have the file, and I assure you, the turrets don't need being moved anymore than the little adjustments so they don't hover at one meter above or the hull, or aren't half intersecting with it. There's no hood like structure around the front engine turrets, what protects them are the spikes next to them. That area has not been moved either. The upper aft turret base is not gone.

Let's do a little illustration:

The upper turret used to be mounted:



Now it has to be mounted:



Where



these will get in the way.

Originally posted by Nico
There's the original low poly moloch in the scene ( yes, I actually think about what I'm doing, I'm not making random changes in a whim ), so I can check weither the turrets are more vulnerable or not. The only different gameplay issue is if someone is willing to slip between the plates and risk bumping everywhere and die from repeated collision.

A little more illustration.

This



was not taken from between the plates. And it probably gets worse if the angle is further above horizontal.

Nor was



this.

Or even



this.

And I wouldn't have to be between the plates to hit the front centerline turret, or even the side ones, through



here.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Nico
If that's not enough for you, well, too bad.

[NGTM-1R]

I'm just making sure you understand that it's not going in the mediaVP.

Oh, and by the way. Your "not enough" comment is dependant on your "between the plates" comment.

Which has been proved false. You don't have a leg to stand on here.

[Nico]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
I'm just making sure you understand that it's not going in the mediaVP.

I'm not looking for that, but, afaik, that's not for you to decide.

Oh, and by the way. Your "not enough" comment is dependant on your "between the plates" comment.

What? edit: no, whatever, don't explain, I don't want to know.

Which has been proved false. You don't have a leg to stand on here. [/B]

You've proven nothing, but if you think that red lines drawn on pics of a "breezes" WORK IN PROGRESS model do you any good, well I'm glad for you.

[NGTM-1R]

You tried to defend this WORK IN PROGRESS model against these very points, and now that you've failed you want to use WORK IN PROGRESS as an excuse? WTFH? You just keep switching your argument.

It's really simple: You said that if it wasn't enough that people had to get between the plates to hit this stuff, too bad. But they don't have to get between the plates.

[Nico]

ok ok, fine. Will you get off my leg now, or failing that, just send me a mail when you're done.
I think I'll repeat myself one last time, coz I've not written it enough: yeah, I'll find any lame argument that  I can so you get off me coz I ****ING DON'T CARE. How many times do I have to tell you?
So ok, you've won, you're the best, Youpee! Yatta! Wheeee!

Darn, and people will wonder why I lose my cool.

[Taristin]

Damnit people, let him finish whatever he wants. If enough of you feel that it'll break canon, then petition wmcoolmon to exclusde it from the media VP. Stop *****ing at the model's author. Jeez. You really discourage modders from continuing work when you whine all the time.

[Jetmech Jr.]

Yes, I agree.

1st: You don't have to use it. If it's included in the mediavp, it'll take all of, what, a minute(?) to remove.

2nd: If you don't like it, fine, well enough. You don't need to get into an argument about why it sucks IN-DEPTH across 1 1/2 pages.

3rd: Make your own model if you're so dissatisfied with the direction in which this one is going.

[TrashMan]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Actually, I will, as will lots of others. Assuming you release it, It'll be put in the media VP and nobody will bother making a new, better one because one will already exist. If I choose to, I can replace or overwrite it, but a lot of newbies won't know how.

Aren't High-poly ships an OPTIONAL download?

[WMCoolmon]

Generally, I'd like to keep models as close to the originals as possible for the mediaVP. However, as long as they are an improvement and still look enough like the original model to be recognizable, they're still valid candidates.

If people ***** and moan enough then yes, I won't include it in the mediaVP because I generally try to please the most amount of people with the least amount of complexity/work for them and myself. That's no reason for bugging Nico because he's deviating from the norm. If you don't want to see this Moloch model in the mediaVP, fine, start a poll or bug me about it. I'd rather people people worked on high-poly versions than not, because they didn't want to be flamed for deviating from the original in some way the poster didn't like.