Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Liberator on March 23, 2002, 03:29:53 am
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Frigate is defined as "a warship that is smaller than a destroyer ". Simple Enough.
A Corvette is defined as "a highly maneuverable armed escort ship that is smaller than a destroyer ". This is where it gets more complicated, it doesn't say that a Corvette is smaller than a frigate.
Any way here my question, should there be a ship class called frigates in the FS? If so why? I mean if the only rep of this class(NTF Iceni) is any example theres no reason, when a Deimos packs as big a wallop and is cheaper and faster to produce.
All definition provided by //www.m-w.com, Merriam-Webster online.
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Well, what ships would go into the Frigate class? (aside from the Iceni)
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Well, FS ship classes are wrong anyways.
It should go like this (from smallest to biggest)
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Juggernaught
Cruisers like Aeolus and Mentu should be corvettes.
(Fast and maneuverable anti-fighter or anti-capship escort vessels)
Corvettes like Deimos and Sobek should be Frigates.
(Bigger than cruisers but no as fast, capable of tearing down both fighters and capships.)
Ships larger than frigates but smaller than cruisers should be designated as destroyers. Alright, perhaps this class can be used for ships that packs as much punch as cruisers but does not have fighterbay. Or packs as much punch as corvettes but has fighterbay. Or something like that... :p
And destroyers like Hecate and Hatshepsut should be cruisers.
(Big and sluggish, has wide variety of weapons arsenal and excellent fighter and bomber numbers. Does not have very much firepower over Destroyers howewer. Focus is on fighter and bomber numbers.)
Bigger ships than cruisers should be designated as battleships.
(Very big ships, it's a menace for all ships that are smaller than this class but does have smaller fighterbays than cruisers.)
And last juggernaughts which are the biggest ships, like Colossus and Sathanas.
(You see one of this class, RUN AND HIDE! Or be sure you have enough firepower in your pocket)
Of course I can't remember correctly real life ship classes sizes, but if I remember correctly, that is correct order of capital ship classes.
Of course balance is important, there should not be useless ship class, of course individual ships can be useless... :p
In my opinion of course. :D
So, yes there is place for frigates. :)
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you've forgotten:
(Fleet?) Carrier and Escort Carrier
and Dreadnaught (although this could be classified as an older type of Battleship)
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Looks right(ish).
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There's frigates in OTT, but they're defined this one because of special abilities, not because of size ( or else it's just a big cruiser or a small corvette, what's the point? ).
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
you've forgotten:
(Fleet?) Carrier and Escort Carrier
and Dreadnaught (although this could be classified as an older type of Battleship)
Yea, I left carriers out because I thought cruises will be enough.
Or if you want carriers then they should have very light armament but damn a lot of fighters and bombers.
But the problem will be that for one mission even single cruiser possesses more than enough fighters and bombers, so you never see the difference... only difference you see is the number and power of weapons which is sad...
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btw, FS2 classification may sound odd, but don't you think it's in fact qute logical? destroyer sounds like it can deal a lot of damage, and cruiser, well, kindda patrol areas maybe?
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Yes it sound better, expect for corvettes part.
Corvettes are small patrol/escort vessels, not full warships like in FS2... :p
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Personally, I define frigates as greater than corvette size (around 1km), with no fighterbay and similar weaponry to corvettes.
The main reason is just that I want a mid-range ship - and i'm mainly phasing out cruisers for corvettes - and also that the Terran destroyers are increasingly becoming more like a carrier (Hecate) in strength.
There's no good reason...it's just what i do.
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well from what i understand the frigate Bosch's frigatte at least could pose a threat to even a destroyer although i cant se how .
Another interesting thing is that a frigate could turn a single corvette into dust even 2 if im right not 3 because it would alredy be too much for it but nonetheless a frigate is a good thing to have in Fs2 especialy if they are more and belong to the GTVA! :headz:
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Fighter
Bomber
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battleship
Carrier
Juggernaught
Dreadnaut
Death Star ;7
I think....
However, Dreadnaut and Juggernaut might be switched around.
But to answer your question, yes there are room for corvettes. What Id really like to see is someone take the time in their campaign to properly re-designate all the ships to follow this more accurate line.
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cruisers more powerful than a destroyer in fs2?
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Originally posted by LtNarol
cruisers more powerful than a destroyer in fs2?
No, in real life. :) Sort of, all ship classes have their roles in real life navy, except battleships which are now decommissioned.
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btw, FS2 classification may sound odd, but don't you think it's in fact qute logical? destroyer sounds like it can deal a lot of damage, and cruiser, well, kindda patrol areas maybe?
My thoughts exactly. "Destroyer" seems to sound more powerful than "cruiser," if you know what I mean. ;)
I think there is also something called a battlecruiser in real life; anyone know where this class falls?
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The russian Battlecruiser KIROV packs a wallup of missiles well Battlecruisers coudl be described as cruisers who can engage other capital ships without support
The Russian Kirov Class Heavy Missile Cruise Ship are the world's largest 'cruisers' and might best be termed "battle cruisers". Originally designed as a large antisubmarine warship to search for and engage enemy ballistic missile submarines, the Kirov’s role was expanded to engage large surface targets and provide air and antisubmarine protection to naval forces after the introduction of the Granit antiship missile system. There are substantial differences in the equipment of each unit of this class.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/1144.htm(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/kirov-DNST8908439.JPG)
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Originally posted by Mr. Fury
Well, FS ship classes are wrong anyways.
It should go like this (from smallest to biggest)...
O Khonsu, not again. :rolleyes:
Do a search, people, please. And don't bring it up again. :no:
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
The russian Battlecruiser KIROV packs a wallup of missiles well Battlecruisers coudl be described as cruisers who can engage other capital ships without support
The Russian Kirov Class Heavy Missile Cruise Ship are the world's largest 'cruisers' and might best be termed "battle cruisers". Originally designed as a large antisubmarine warship to search for and engage enemy ballistic missile submarines, the Kirov’s role was expanded to engage large surface targets and provide air and antisubmarine protection to naval forces after the introduction of the Granit antiship missile system. There are substantial differences in the equipment of each unit of this class.
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/1144.htm(http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/row/rus/kirov-DNST8908439.JPG)
I miss the big ass WW2 turrets...
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
O Khonsu, not again. :rolleyes:
Do a search, people, please. And don't bring it up again. :no:
Note: I didn't create this topic, only replied to it. So don't quote me about that. :p
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(http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kirov/images/1144_8.jpg)
The 130mm AK-130-MR-184 Universal Automated Shipboard Artillery System.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kirov/index.html
You mean something like this? though I myself still prefeer tripple X turrets;7
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Bigass guns are cool. :cool:
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Saphah is reason enough to have a Frigate class
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Originally posted by Liberator
I mean if the only rep of this class(NTF Iceni) is any example theres no reason, when a Deimos packs as big a wallop and is cheaper and faster to produce.
All definition provided by www.m-w.com, Merriam-Webster online.
:o
Don't diss the Iceni! The Deimos can barely scratch it. The Iceni has two BGreens and can take on an Orion without breaking a sweat. A cheaper, easy to produce frigate might have only one BGreen, and less armor. That's still damned good.
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Dreadnaughts have more armor, and firepower than Battleships, but are roughly the same size.
Battlecruisers are essentially Cruisers without as much armor, so they can go faster. They also might have as much firepower as Battleships.
As for the Iceni, we never really see it do anything except run, or get hit by asteroids (i purposely let it die that way once), so i don't know for sure.
But i would think an FS2 Frigate would have the firepower of a Corvette, but a lot more armor, not as much as a destroyer though.
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I like the Destroyers the way their designated, I'm thinking instead of Frigates you'd have Destroyer Escorts. This is a legitimate naval class that specializes in screening fighters but has the firepower to lend a hand to the larger vessels.
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Originally posted by Bishop Gantry
(http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kirov/images/1144_8.jpg)
The 130mm AK-130-MR-184 Universal Automated Shipboard Artillery System.
http://www.naval-technology.com/projects/kirov/index.html
You mean something like this? though I myself still prefeer tripple X turrets;7
Oh yeah... :D
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I remember in the original Red Alert cut scene the guns of the cruisers. Now those were guns ;)
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Originally posted by Dranon
Dreadnaughts have more armor, and firepower than Battleships, but are roughly the same size
Technically speaking, a dreadnought is merely a type of battleship, one which has an all-big-gun armament. The Deimos and Iceni would be 'dreadnoughts', the allied various destroyers would not.
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Originally posted by Shrike
Technically speaking, a dreadnought is merely a type of battleship, one which has an all-big-gun armament. The Deimos and Iceni would be 'dreadnoughts', the allied various destroyers would not.
All-big-guns? Is that a smart design? Wouldn't it be a waste if that ship were destroyed?
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Originally posted by Setekh
All-big-guns? Is that a smart design? Wouldn't it be a waste if that ship were destroyed?
Heck, why build fighters? Wouldn't it be a waste if they were destroyed? :p
Frigates are cool, and so are Dreadnoughts (http://www.mgonetwork.com/~btarchive/clanwarships/mckenna.html) :D
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Heck, why build fighters? Wouldn't it be a waste if they were destroyed? :p
Not really, because they don't pack so many big guns...
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Originally posted by Setekh
Not really, because they don't pack so many big guns...
What about pilots, and Alpha 1, and the TV they put in them so you can see Command bob up and down? Now the TV has got to cost a lot...
Besides, look at how many fighters they make. The GTVA might commision one or two frigates, but it'll commision 10 or 20 fighter wings. :eek:
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Originally posted by Setekh
All-big-guns? Is that a smart design? Wouldn't it be a waste if that ship were destroyed?
Sorry....... warship terminology.
The primary battery is a single caliber of weapon, such as pretty much all post-Dreadnaught battleships. Take the Iowas - 9 16" guns. If they were non-Dreadnaught BBs, they would probably have an armament more like 4-6 16" guns and 6-9, oh, 12" guns.
The Deimos is a Dreadnought because it has one 'caliber' of weapon - TerSlashes. An Orion would not be a Dreadnaught, because it has two - TerSlashes and BGreens.
Secondary weapons (such as quick firing 4-6" guns and AA guns) are not factored in to the 'all big gun' comment. It's not literally all big guns.
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I base all my creations (although I havent posted much)as such for The FreeSpace Universe:
Capital Ships
> Freighters (Single Container Haulers)
> Transports
> Corsair (Clipper Type; Escort)
> Cruiser(Battle, Science, Medical, Transport;StarLiner, Awacs)
> Corvettes
> Destroyers (Carriers, BattleShip)
> Dreadnoughts (SuperDestroyers)
> Juggernauts ( ProtoType One of a Kind Type)
......................8) The Thing you all need to remember is that it is the FreeSpace Universe.......:rolleyes: Even though it doesnt seem right to todays type of craft ..........8):doubt: ;7 ;7 ;7
PSYCHO 8)
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PS: It's dreadnaughts. ;)
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Originally posted by Shrike
Sorry....... warship terminology.
The primary battery is a single caliber of weapon, such as pretty much all post-Dreadnaught battleships. Take the Iowas - 9 16" guns. If they were non-Dreadnaught BBs, they would probably have an armament more like 4-6 16" guns and 6-9, oh, 12" guns.
The Deimos is a Dreadnought because it has one 'caliber' of weapon - TerSlashes. An Orion would not be a Dreadnaught, because it has two - TerSlashes and BGreens.
Secondary weapons (such as quick firing 4-6" guns and AA guns) are not factored in to the 'all big gun' comment. It's not literally all big guns.
I see... So, is it dreadnought or dreadnaught? :)
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deppends if your american or british really :)
P.S Juggernaut
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Dictionary.com (www.dictionary.com) saves the day once again!
Corvette:
1. A fast, lightly armed warship, smaller than a destroyer, often armed for antisubmarine operations.
2. An obsolete sailing warship, smaller than a frigate, usually armed with one tier of guns.
Frigate:
1. A warship, usually of 4,000 to 9,000 displacement tons, that is larger than a destroyer and smaller than a cruiser, used primarily for escort duty.
2. A high-speed, medium-sized sailing war vessel of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries.
3. Archaic. A fast, light vessel, such as a sailboat.
Destroyer:
1. A small, fast, highly maneuverable warship armed with guns, torpedoes, depth charges, and guided missiles.
Cruiser:
1. One of a class of fast warships of medium tonnage with a long cruising radius and less armor and firepower than a battleship.
Battleship:
1. Any one of a class of warships of the largest size, carrying the greatest number of weapons and clad with the heaviest armor. Also called battlewagon.
Dreadnaught:
1. A battleship armed with six or more guns having calibers of 12 inches or more.
Juggernaut:
1. A massive inexorable force that seems to crush everything in its way
So there you go. Freespace is both right and wrong on some accounts (namely right with Corvettes, wrong with Cruisers, Frigates, and Destroyers).
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The frigate description there is out of date. Generally modern frigates are smaller than both cruisers and destroyers and are optimized for anti-submarine work.
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Methinks that someone has screwed around with the voting choices...;)
Yes they definitely do! We could have used some...what with all the Aeoleses destroyed...:(
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In relation to the definition of a frigate, apparently the specifications differ between navies. For example, the British navy class a frigate as an escort vessel between a corvette and destroyer in size, while the US navy classes it as an escort vessel between a destroyer an cruiser in size. Although historically it has been defined as the class of ship next in size to the top-of-the-line ships. Given such derivation for that one term, could you give an exact definition of how big a frigate is? Rather, it seems to be classed more by its role.
A Dreadnought (with an o) is a battleship with superior armament to all its predecessors. The original Dreadnoughts with the British navy fielded between 10 and 14 12" guns (as well as a speed of 21 knots) - ships with bigger guns (such as 13.5" guns) were unofficially called super-Dreadnoughts. Again, the definition has probably been changed/refined over time with emphasis placed on role (i.e. being bigger and meaner than the other ship classes) rather than specific number of guns.
That's just some info I have to throw into the discussion, we've already learned that the Freespace definitons don't necessarily tie in with the naval terms of today/yesteryear.
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Originally posted by Kazashi
In relation to the definition of a frigate, apparently the specifications differ between navies. For example, the British navy class a frigate as an escort vessel between a corvette and destroyer in size, while the US navy classes it as an escort vessel between a destroyer an cruiser in size. Although historically it has been defined as the class of ship next in size to the top-of-the-line ships. Given such derivation for that one term, could you give an exact definition of how big a frigate is? Rather, it seems to be classed more by its role.
The US Navy's frigates (such as the Perry class) are smaller than it's destroyers and cruisers. The term Frigate now refers to (in most navies) a ship smaller than both destroyers and cruisers, and often one that is optimised for ASM work.
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Originally posted by Shrike
The US Navy's frigates (such as the Perry class) are smaller than it's destroyers and cruisers. The term Frigate now refers to (in most navies) a ship smaller than both destroyers and cruisers, and often one that is optimised for ASM work.
I read your previous post, don't worry :)
Frigates over here in the RAN are generally bigger than our destroyers (if we still have any left in service) and put to work as guided missile frigates. While they do have anti-submarine capabilities this isn't emphasised as their primary role (someone please feel free to correct this, I severed my ties and most of my interest with the defence forces a few years back). Still, I guess you can have more than one designation for a frigate - one class would be designed for AS warfare (not that you need to attack our subs, they do a good enough job of falling to bits as it is), another carrying missiles etc.
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Now spekaing from a purly FS universe perspective, there is no room or need for a new class of ship either between cruisers and corvetts or between corvetts and destroyers.
The only vessel to have come as an "inbetween" has been the Iceni. Now I believe that the Deimos is an excellent warship but is under armed as far as anti cap ship capabilities go, for its class.
It should have had at least one bf green on each side, while the destroyers take on the role of haveing all bfgreens about 5 of them. It seems to me that this is how the Hecate should have been. If you look at the 5 beams on the Hecate you notice that they are all the same size and look exactly the same, yet they dont fire the same type of beam. What each beam fires varies from mission to mission reguardless of what the tables say. It seems that big V made some compromises for the ease in making missions, thus resulting in a lack of any standerdnization in weaponry (ex. in the mission where you first see the Colossus, the Deimos corvett has a bfgreen on the top of it that fires at the Colossus). The same should go for the Orion which should have 2 bfgreen on each side and one under the chin. Yet in some missions we see it with 3 bfgreens on each side and one under the chin.
The whole point being that in reality there would be standereds laid down, and that the need for them in this game is readily apparent. Deimos should have a bfgreen or 2, which would allow it to play its role. The need for frigates seems moot, because their role is taken up by other classes. The upgunned Deimos would be the perfect middle between a cruiser and a destroyer eliminating the need for any other "inbetweens."
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well there is one class pure Battleship no wasteful hangar bays all weapons armed to the theeths...
the only thing thta could go up against it would be other capships it would have superior AA compared to the destroyer carrier hybrids...
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1)I dont think so Starfox because you see even if corvettes are somewhat underguned but they lack the bigger fighterbay bigger armour that a frigatte could provide and not to methion that a frigatte has more guns than a corvette it will alwais have more guns than a corvette (in fs ship terminologi).The Iceni was the first of its kind and it wasnt that well armed or designed but it could still pose a threat to a destroyer while a corvette i doubt could fill this role.
2)Mi idea of the Fs frigatte is that ity is a ship bigger than a corvette (max2km the largest ) with at least 2BG and several ter/vas/shi slash AAAfbeams flak the works .
Basicly a frigatte is supose to bring a lot of firepower where you need it fast(more firepower than a corvette and less than a destroyer). For example if you need more firepower than a cxorvette could bring in one place you would get maibe 2 corvettes maibe a destroyer which is much more expensive than a corvette if you have to replace it (in case it goes down ) while a frigatte is cheaper.A frigatte could deal with 2 shivan corvettes maibe even 3 if it has Alpha 1 but 2 corvettes could not deal with them not even 3/2 the only other existing ship in Fs that could fill this role is a destroyer.
I believe i made mi self understud even if its a long thread!:D
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If you build a vessel with the specifications you mentioned, namely that it be 2km max, with 2 BG and all the anti air it would need, and give it a fighterbay, then you would have a vessel that is slightly weaker than a destroyer. Remember that an Orion is 2.1km in length.
By upgunning a corvette and even enlarging it a bit, then you will have a vessel that will provide a serious threat to enemy destroyers, and fullfill all the requierments that you laid out for a frigate, except for the fighterbay.
Now if you want a vessel that is smaller than a destroyer, but has a fighterbay, then you could do something like the Moloch, and you could even enlarge it to have grater capacity. A vessel like that would have less firepower, but have a fighterbay thus providing fighter and bomber support. SUch a vessel could be called a frigate, and become an invaluable support weapon and well as a strike weapon, thus fullfilling the needs without commiting a destroyer.
However, if you want a vessel that has big guns, with all the other various defensive weapons it would need, and have a fighterbay worth mentioning, then you would have to enlarge the vessel to the point where it is almost a destroyer, thus defeating the purpose.
The best solution I think if to upgun the current corvetts with 2bg, and enlarge them alittle for additional armor and fire power. At the same time build a new type of vessel, that is the same size, has less firepower, but has a good size fighter bay. This vessel could b called a frigate. By having corvetts and frigates with these specifications, will allow any role to be fulfilled without the commitment of a destroyer, and thus freeing them up for the bigger fish :)
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I thought frigates and destroyers were about the same size.
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In the FS universe thats not the case. Names for ship classes are very different from real life.
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Main Entry: cor·vette
Pronunciation: kor-'vet
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Middle French, probably from Middle Dutch corf, a kind of ship, literally, basket
Date: 1636
1 : a warship ranking in the old sailing navies next below a frigate
2 : a highly maneuverable armed escort ship that is smaller than a destroyer
Main Entry: frig·ate
Pronunciation: 'fri-g&t
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle French, from Old Italian fregata
Date: 1583
1 : a light boat propelled orig. by oars but later by sails
2 : a square-rigged war vessel intermediate between a corvette and a ship of the line
3 : a warship that is smaller than a destroyer
Main Entry: dread·nought
Pronunciation: 'dred-"not, -"nät
Function: noun
Date: 1806
1 : a warm garment of thick cloth; also : the cloth
2 : [Dreadnought, British battleship] : BATTLESHIP
3 : one that is among the largest or most powerful of its kind
:)
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FS Ship Designations and the mission roles:
Destroyer: Serves as a mobile command center, a base of fighter operations, and in an emergency situation fire support to conclude engagements quickly. Due to their large size destroyers do not make good places to be if a battle 'goes south', as they make extremely large targets once their escort has been 'escorted' ;7 .
Corvette: Primarily serves as a main battle and picket ship, rarely seen in less than pairs. Corvettes look to become the backbone of future GTVA fleets as they are able to survive almost any engagement. Non-destroyable by fighters(except the Myrmidon) and is death on wheels:headz: for bombers due to their slower speed.
Cruiser: Serves as a disposable source of moderate firepower, usually easily dispatchhed by fighters and bombers(see Aten). Cruisers usually operate singley or in unmatched pairs, usually with a small escort of fighters. Cruisers serve to bolster a pilots ego by allowing him/her to destroy a supposedly important enemy(or friendly, if your so inclined) warship. While not a threat in fleet operations, cruisers excel in Hit and Run operation, where there higher speed allows them to get in deal their damage and get out before the ship guarding it blow it away(unless Alpha 1 is guarding the area:snipe: ).
Fighters/Bombers: the power behind GTVA fleet ops a ship with out a fighter escort is a good as dead.
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Frigate?: serves as a forward command post, until Central deems the area safe enough to deploy a destroyer, also serves as destroyer escort during fleet engagements by screening fighters and bombers and coordinating fire with the rest of the battle group.
whadd'ya think? Am I right or wrong?
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Originally posted by Liberator
FS Ship Designations and the mission roles:
Destroyer: Serves as a mobile command center, a base of fighter operations, and in an emergency situation fire support to conclude engagements quickly. Due to their large size destroyers do not make good places to be if a battle 'goes south', as they make extremely large targets once their escort has been 'escorted' ;7 .
Corvette: Primarily serves as a main battle and picket ship, rarely seen in less than pairs. Corvettes look to become the backbone of future GTVA fleets as they are able to survive almost any engagement. Non-destroyable by fighters(except the Myrmidon) and is death on wheels:headz: for bombers due to their slower speed.
Cruiser: Serves as a disposable source of moderate firepower, usually easily dispatchhed by fighters and bombers(see Aten). Cruisers usually operate singley or in unmatched pairs, usually with a small escort of fighters. Cruisers serve to bolster a pilots ego by allowing him/her to destroy a supposedly important enemy(or friendly, if your so inclined) warship. While not a threat in fleet operations, cruisers excel in Hit and Run operation, where there higher speed allows them to get in deal their damage and get out before the ship guarding it blow it away(unless Alpha 1 is guarding the area:snipe: ).
Fighters/Bombers: the power behind GTVA fleet ops a ship with out a fighter escort is a good as dead.
-----------------------------------
Frigate?: serves as a forward command post, until Central deems the area safe enough to deploy a destroyer, also serves as destroyer escort during fleet engagements by screening fighters and bombers and coordinating fire with the rest of the battle group.
whadd'ya think? Am I right or wrong?
I would disagree on a couple of points on each class.
Destroyer: Being how in the current configurations of the GTVA warships the only ships that have large anti cap ship beams are the destroyers. This makes them the primary vessel for dishing out fire power, and are used on the front line all the time, not just in emergencies. The only exception is where the flagship of a fleet is not commited unless in an emergency.
Corvette: Although they are now the main battle, they are not usually used as a pickett ship, that job usually goes to the cruiser. Even in main battle, their anti cap abilities are insufficient, especially Deimos. Which is why I previously said that they would be perfect for the job if they were upgunned a bit.
Cruiser: Lets not forget the more modern cruisers like Aeolus for example, a far cry from Aten :) These vessel are good for strike missions and would be the best vessels for destroyer escort as far as AAA firposwer goes, and also as a picket type ship.
Frigate: Your description of a frigate makes it sound more like a command vessel than a comabt ship and normally command vessels dont act as escorts to destroyers, being how the destroyer is the command ship :) and that cruisers would be best for that role.
The best role for a frigate in the FS univers, I think would be to be a vessel the same size as the corvett, have minimal anticap guns, moderate AAA guns, and a fighterbay. Combined with the upgunned corvetts this vessel would serve to provide imediate fighter/bomber support, without the use of a destroyer. Thus allowing for much more flexability in how battle fleets are deployed and saving the destroyers for engaging the larger warships.
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Incidently, I think the medical ship may have originally been intended as a frigate. (Just look that the POF's file name!)
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NTF Iceni
- N Neo
- T Terran
- F Front, not Frigate :rolleyes:
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How's this:
While the detroyer remains premier in terms of firepower. Next generation GTVA corvettes will see a divergence in their design philosphies. The corvette as a warship class will continue to exist, however its anti-capital capabilites will likely be reduce to almost nothing however, correspondingly the excess reactor capacity will be diverted in to anti-fighter/anti-bomber weapons systems. The Corvette class will give birth to the Frigate clss warship that will focus on providing heavy firepower in a space only slightly larger than a Corvette without risking the lives of the many thousands of officers and men aboard a destroyer class vessel. The first generation Frigate warships will be considerably more vulnerable to fighters/bombers however with proper fleet deployment this is minimal.
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I mai be wrong but isnt a corvette in this case a deimos class corvette about 1 km long ship with a small fighter bay.I was talking about a frigatte which should range from about 1.3km tghe smallest to max 2 km the largest whit the bulk of the frigatte ship size to about 1.5-1.7km which is still a lot smaller than a destroyer in this case the Orion i was thinking about the corvettes in a Fs universe 40 years after the capella incident(my unposted yet campaign story) where the Orion Mk3is about 3.1km long and the Hecate Mk2 3.4km long thus making a 2 km long frigatte far smaller than eny other destroyer yet thought up.
But even in the curent Fs2universe a 1.6 km long ship wich provides a bigger firepower than a corvette a little more fighter/bommber payload and much more armour makung them much more rezistantthen the corvettes ofcourse these ships would have to have new more powerfull engines then the ones curently used...
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Terran/Vasudan Corvettes do not have fighterbays. Only the shivan corvette has a fighterbay.
I see Corvettes as being sort of like Cruisers, but bigger. Their anti-capship firepower should be increased a little (I just don't like the slash beams at all), or they should make 2 seperate ships, one for anti-capship work, one for anti-fighter/bomber work.
I see a Frigate as having the firepower of an improved Corvette, better armor/hull, and a fighter bay for some fighter/bombers. Sort of like a command ship for small task forces and such, or a special exploratory ship, since you never know what you might find when exploring new jump nodes.
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Originally posted by Dranon
I see Corvettes as being sort of like Cruisers, but bigger. Their anti-capship firepower should be increased a little (I just don't like the slash beams at all), or they should make 2 seperate ships, one for anti-capship work, one for anti-fighter/bomber work.
Two things about FS2 corvettes...
First, the tech description of the Deimos suggests that its purpose is the same as that of the cruiser, but it's bigger, tougher, and deadlier. A super-cruiser, if you will.
Second, the Deimos has two BGreens on the front, and a TerSlash on each side. It also has no less than six AAA guns, and six more flak guns. The Hecate has two BGreens on the front, and another BGreen on each side and the rear, for reference. The Deimos isn't that weak...
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Corvette
This smaller-class ship is often used as an armed escort for traders and political transports. The Corvette is significantly smaller than a Destroyer, but can use its speed to evade more powerful enemies. This ship was not designed for a full offensive, but it can do an excellent job at distracting the enemy while other ships move into position or escape, or it can be used in flanking attacks against smaller armadas. The Corvette is also the largest class ship that players begin with.
Frigate
This ship is usually deployed to keep smaller and faster ships away from the less maneuverable Destroyers. While not as maneuverable as the Corvette, the Frigate has more firepower. Frigates are also useful in flanking and rear attacks against enemy Cruisers otherwise engaged in combat. This is also the first ship which can be fitted with enhancing devices; Since these enhancements can perform a variety of functions, the Frigate is the first class of truly versatile ships.
Destroyers
This is a small, relatively fast and well-armed warship often used to support larger vessels. While its armament and enhancing devices are on par with the Frigate, the Destroyer sports a significantly thicker hull. This means that the loss of some speed and agility as compared to the Frigate is made up for by the ability to take a greater amount of damage before incapacitation. This allows a fleet of Destroyers to hold fast against smaller numbers of superior class ships.
Cruisers
The Cruiser is large, fast, and moderately armored and gunned. For several reasons, the Cruiser is the first in a more advanced generation of warships, distinguishing it from the smaller vessels: it has room for two additional devices, can hold some of the more powerful devices, and is the smallest ship which requires off-planet construction (though not necessarily in a vacuum.) The Cruiser is the pinnacle of elementary spacecraft development, and is often the largest ship that many evolving races have in their armada. Eventually, though, they are surpassed as the race learns new methods of production.
Battle Cruisers
The differences between a Cruiser and the more formidable Battle Cruiser are few but significant. They both have the same number of weapons batteries, but the size of each battery is greatly increased, greatly magnifying the offensive power of each Battle Cruiser. This ship is also lighter and faster that the Battleship, while being able to take much more damage than the average Cruiser. In fact, it is often a perfect combination of the classes above and below it.
Battleship
With the capability of destroying an average space station single-handedly, the Battleship forms the foundation of any serious armada. It is the largest, most heavily armed and armored type of ship able to be manufactured within gravity. Its lack of speed demands an array of escorts (Frigate class and smaller) to protect its vulnerable flanks and rear. Of course, such escorts are usually easily provided by anyone with the power to create a fleet of Battleships.
Dreadnaught
This ponderous beast is so large and well armed that it can barely be called a ship, and must be built in orbit. This super-vessel is bloated with weaponry and armor, and is a menace for any class of opposing forces. Many an opponent has suddenly realized they were doomed when they saw this powerful creation appear amidst its enemies fleets. Obviously, the Dreadnought requires a full deployment of escorts and support vessels.
MOBILE FORTRESS
The Mobile Fortress is so large and so well armed that it can only be classified a space station. This titan is large enough that it is a feature itself, around which an armada can station a defense. It does still retain enough movement though, that it can be brought to bear against any weaponry that your opponent might have which is larger. The Mobile Fortress is basically an excuse to put many, many guns together in one place.
DOOMSTAR
The Doom Star, as its name implies, is nearly a celestial body in its own right. The pinnacle of space design for any known sentient species, this behemoth is so large that merely trying to land it on a planet would cause an ecological catastrophe. It is large enough that it generates a large gravitational pull, which would wreak havoc on itself and any planets that it approached. Fitted with a terrifying array of weaponry, the Doom Star can dispense annihilation upon any nearly any enemy. Simply put, anyone who tries attacking a Doom Star deserves what they get.
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Well im not getting into the naval clasifications argument, but...
Frigate should not be a common ship in freespace. The Iceni was custom built as a command ship, and it clearly serves its purpose well. Its effective in combat since its fast (35m/s) and has enough power to defend against a destroyer, even though its not designed for direct assult. The only other place i think a frigate sized ship should be used would be as a command ship , for SOC for example. They arent warships designed for direct engagment, leave that to corvetes.
Plus IMHO, only destroyers should have fighter bays, it gives them more importance in their roll of the flagship of a fleet.
pete
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Originally posted by _argv[-1]
Two things about FS2 corvettes...
First, the tech description of the Deimos suggests that its purpose is the same as that of the cruiser, but it's bigger, tougher, and deadlier. A super-cruiser, if you will.
Second, the Deimos has two BGreens on the front, and a TerSlash on each side. It also has no less than six AAA guns, and six more flak guns. The Hecate has two BGreens on the front, and another BGreen on each side and the rear, for reference. The Deimos isn't that weak...
Since when did the GTCv Deimos have 2 BGreens as default weapons?
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The Deimos' default weapons don't include any BGreens, unless you're using a ships.tbl from some mod. (Not sure what it actually has in FS2 campaign missions though, that might be different from the default.)
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Think of a frigate as a destroyer without fighter complement and no hangars.
As a result, they are smaller and faster but by themselves pack almost as much heat as a destroyer
Heres something to think about: How would the GTVA Colossus be classified?
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I believe the Colossus was considered a super destroyer by the :v: staff. Of all the ships, the GTM Hippocrates is the closest to being an actual frigate I think, though they probably lowered it's turret count. From it's pof name I think it was originally intended to be a frigate. (As I've previously mentioned.) But you can get an idea what size and basic style they were thinking of for a frigate in FS2 by looking at the Hippocrates.
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Heres something to think about: How would the GTVA Colossus be classified?
Toothlees freighter:doh: :doh: :doh:
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Originally posted by EdrickV
The Deimos' default weapons don't include any BGreens, unless you're using a ships.tbl from some mod. (Not sure what it actually has in FS2 campaign missions though, that might be different from the default.)
You're right; maybe I was looking at a modified ships.tbl without knowing it.
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By default the Deimos has all TSlashes. But in the Main Campaign it varies from mission to mission. Example: the Lysander and Actium have BGreens but only fire them to destroy the cruisers. Meanwhile, later the Hawkwood has TSlashes except the aft right cannon which is an SGreen which is only fired at the Colossus.
The TSlash is used by default because it has a faster recycle time and looks more impresive.
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Originally posted by Liberator
The TSlash is used by default because it has a faster recycle time and looks more impresive.
It's weak beyond reason, it doesn't hit the target during 2/3 of its life (except on the rare occasion that it slashes the target lengthwise), and its life is only a couple of seconds. That's supposed to look impressive?
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IMO;
Corvettes - used in groups to flank and destroy larger ships, or 1 on 1 against similar / smaller ships.
Destroyers - jack of all trades - serve as filed command for the fleet, perform major operations against large capital ships or for blockades, provide fighter cover for smaller ships during battles. I reckon they are often held back simply to ensure they can provide cover - and their positioning in key battles reflects this. Also suitable for heavy recon, as they can cover large areas with fighters (Fs2 - Aquitane and Psamptik in the nebula).
Frigate - smallest fighter carring capital ship. Carries a small complement of dedicated fighter craft - possibly half that of a destroyer - and a limited amount of defensive weaponry. Emphasis on speed over power - in order to be used safely in teh kind of missions that the Psamptik was lost on. Also lower profile than destroyers, for use in covert operations.
Probably a dedicted ship - not used much by fleet, and more SOC and Vasudan equivalent groups.
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how big should its fighter complement be?
the firgate i mean.
and how big are those of the Orion, Hectate and hasteput?
...tnx karajorma
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The fighter complement of a destroyer is around 120+ ships. There's no way a frigate should carry half of that. Give them a couple of squadrons at most. 24 maybe 30 ships maximum. If you want to know fighter complements have a look at this site
http://pub11.ezboard.com/fjtofrm11.showMessage?topicID=4.topic
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Freespace classifications are based upon pre-WW2 era classes where the destroyer was originally larger and more powerful than the cruiser. These classes where also based upon size with firepower coming as a second classification field.
Todays classifications are based upon mass and size rather than firepower and size. The various classes have also been revered in their usage now playing the destroyer as a smaller and lighter ship than a cruiser.
Dreadnaughts wheren't technically a class, but rather a type of design originally constructed by the britist navy back in the days of WW1. But the name evolved and eventually became associated with the larger-than-battleship class vessels. Somewhere along the lines this also splintered off to become known as juggernaughts as well.
Fighters, Bombers and Support Gunboats are all support strike craft and shall not be placed into the same list as cruisers and battleships because they are not the same. Although we often thing of these vessels as small, fast and maneuverable compared to the hulking mass of the capital ship, they aren't always. Think of the B-52 bomber and the shear size and mass of that plane. It's a bomber, though far from small and maneuverable like an F-16 or F-3.
The same applies to Carrier vessels. A carrier is a transport vessels for smaller combat support craft. Not all classes should be placed into the same lists.
Classification by modern/todays standards are...
Corvette
Frigate
Destroyer
Cruiser
Battle Cruiser
Battleship
Dreadnaught/Juggernaught (depending where you're from)
Freespace Classifications...
Combat Support Craft
Cruiser
Corvette
Destroyer
Juggernaught
A frigate in FS2 is roughly appoximate to a corvette class vessel give or take a bit, though they don't appear to be an official classification of ship size/mass.
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Originally posted by elorran
Freespace classifications are based upon pre-WW2 era classes where the destroyer was originally larger and more powerful than the cruiser. These classes where also based upon size with firepower coming as a second classification field.
I was beginning to think the terminology consultant for FreeSpace was incompetent or something. Thanks for clearing that up.
Fighters, Bombers and Support Gunboats are all support strike craft and shall not be placed into the same list as cruisers and battleships because they are not the same. Although we often thing of these vessels as small, fast and maneuverable compared to the hulking mass of the capital ship, they aren't always. Think of the B-52 bomber and the shear size and mass of that plane. It's a bomber, though far from small and maneuverable like an F-16 or F-3.
This contrast also appears in the difference between the GTF Pegasus (smallest fighter by volume) and GTB Ursa (largest bomber by volume, apart from some Shivan bombers).
And by the way, B-52s are one hell of a lot faster than battleships. I suspect that the reason they aren't classed with cruisers and battleships is because they are aircraft, not watercraft. In FreeSpace, fighters, bombers, and warships are all spacecraft, so one might be tempted to group them together.
The same applies to Carrier vessels. A carrier is a transport vessels for smaller combat support craft. Not all classes should be placed into the same lists.
Note that FreeSpace destroyers and juggernauts (and some corvettes, namely the SCv Moloch class) also fall into the carrier class, since they carry fighters and bombers.
A frigate in FS2 is roughly appoximate to a corvette class vessel give or take a bit, though they don't appear to be an official classification of ship size/mass.
They are if you consider the Iceni. In that case, a frigate is a warship that is bigger, tougher, and more heavily armed than a corvette, but less so than a destroyer. Personally, I don't see why one would need such a ship. I think :V: should have just made the Iceni bigger and called it a destroyer. (Yes, you can make a reasonable-looking asteroid large enough to encase a destroyer. It'd be pretty big, but hey, some asteroids are big.)
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elorran: a couple of corrections if I may.
Pre-WWII destroyers were generally still smaller than cruiser class vessels. Some WW1 era cruisers were developed that had smaller dimensions than a couple of the later destroyer classes, however they retained a greater displacement, crew compliment, and armament. Things might've been different in the 19th century though....
The HMS Dreadnought was the British Navy's next "experiment" following the battleship classes, for the purpose of deploying bigger guns and more of them. There was no actual class of Dreadnought, though there were classes of battleship such as the Bellerophon and Colossus that were placed into that grouping due to the use of multiple 12" guns like the Dreadnought. Maybe that name just sounded so cool :)
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Originally posted by _argv[-1]
I think :V: should have just made the Iceni bigger and called it a destroyer. (Yes, you can make a reasonable-looking asteroid large enough to encase a destroyer. It'd be pretty big, but hey, some asteroids are big.)
I dont think :v: only made the Iceni small so they could hide it in an asteroid. The Iceni was a custom built command ship, its general tactic was to run, and it was good at it. Just think about the SOC mission where u are escorting the Iceni, a sobek warps in, and the iceni runs, even though it had enough firepower to destroy it in the first place (does in the end). If a destroyer goes into battle, its gonna have to be better than its enemy since destroyers arent fast enough to run. Plus with someone like Bosch coordinating tactics, who needs to pick a fight anyway? Take the mission where the Iceni sneeks past the Collosus and into the nebula, you couldnt have done that in an Orion or Hecate. The NTF had the Repulse for warfare, the Iceni was too important for battle.
pete
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Originally posted by beatspete
I dont think :v: only made the Iceni small so they could hide it in an asteroid. The Iceni was a custom built command ship, its general tactic was to run, and it was good at it. Just think about the SOC mission where u are escorting the Iceni, a sobek warps in, and the iceni runs, even though it had enough firepower to destroy it in the first place (does in the end). If a destroyer goes into battle, its gonna have to be better than its enemy since destroyers arent fast enough to run. Plus with someone like Bosch coordinating tactics, who needs to pick a fight anyway? Take the mission where the Iceni sneeks past the Collosus and into the nebula, you couldnt have done that in an Orion or Hecate. The NTF had the Repulse for warfare, the Iceni was too important for battle.
pete
This is correct, the NTF Iceni was designed to fight only if it had to.
Why do you think the NTD Repulse was selected to command the Epsilon Pegasi offensive?
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Originally posted by killadonuts
This is correct, the NTF Iceni was designed to fight only if it had to.
Why do you think the NTD Repulse was selected to command the Epsilon Pegasi offensive?
.......uuuuuhhhhh, 'cause Koth was Rear Admiral and very experienced?:doh:(http://www.smilies.nl/repuke.gif)
(http://www.smilies.nl/beerchug.gif) Beer war!
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Originally posted by nuclear1
.......uuuuuhhhhh, 'cause Koth was Rear Admiral and very experienced?:doh:(http://www.smilies.nl/repuke.gif)
(http://www.smilies.nl/beerchug.gif) Beer war!
I diddn't mean the ship individually. I ment it as an Orion class destroyer
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I dont think the NTF was capable of constructing Hecates, so they resorted to using the older Orions. Plus, they seemed to be in mass production with the NTF at the time.........:D
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Originally posted by beatspete
I dont think :v: only made the Iceni small so they could hide it in an asteroid. The Iceni was a custom built command ship, its general tactic was to run, and it was good at it. Just think about the SOC mission where u are escorting the Iceni, a sobek warps in, and the iceni runs, even though it had enough firepower to destroy it in the first place (does in the end). If a destroyer goes into battle, its gonna have to be better than its enemy since destroyers arent fast enough to run. Plus with someone like Bosch coordinating tactics, who needs to pick a fight anyway? Take the mission where the Iceni sneeks past the Collosus and into the nebula, you couldnt have done that in an Orion or Hecate. The NTF had the Repulse for warfare, the Iceni was too important for battle.
pete
That would imply that a destroyer couldn't jump in, get past the Colossus, and jump back out in 30 seconds. That's a lot of time, even for a destroyer. Also, if the destroyer's size makes it too large to get past the Colossus without colliding with it, it could always jump in on the other side of the Knossos.
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Originally posted by _argv[-1]
That would imply that a destroyer couldn't jump in, get past the Colossus, and jump back out in 30 seconds. That's a lot of time, even for a destroyer. Also, if the destroyer's size makes it too large to get past the Colossus without colliding with it, it could always jump in on the other side of the Knossos.
Look at kings gambit (the missions with the mjolnirs). The orion takes a lot longer than 30 seconds to warp out even though it is in some serious crossfire and tries to warp out as quickly as possible.
It seems likely that a destroyer takes longer than 30 seconds to recharge it's jump engines (at least after an interstellar jump) Even the cruisers and corvettes take longer than 30 seconds so maybe the Iceni was built specifically to avoid that problem.
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Originally posted by _argv[-1]
That would imply that a destroyer couldn't jump in, get past the Colossus, and jump back out in 30 seconds. That's a lot of time, even for a destroyer. Also, if the destroyer's size makes it too large to get past the Colossus without colliding with it, it could always jump in on the other side of the Knossos.
So why didnt the Iceni just jump in on the other side?
The Iceni, unlike a destroy, goes at 35m/s, only matched by a Mentu class, so it was obviously built to run.
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The Iceni was (probably) built for the ETAK project..... purpose designed to be able to slip through GTVa defences, and survive long enough to contact the Shivans. Everything else in the rebellion was just a diversion - the Iceni was only built to run.
IMO :)
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Originally posted by beatspete
So why didnt the Iceni just jump in on the other side?
The Iceni, unlike a destroy, goes at 35m/s, only matched by a Mentu class, so it was obviously built to run.
I wouldn't know... I made a private little FS2 mod to make the game more interesting. Among other things, the speeds for everything bigger than a bomber have changed. Freighters and transports have a top speed of around 50 m/s, cruisers around 30-40 (except heavy cruisers, which are 10, since they are much heavier but have the same engine), corvettes around 20, destroyers around 10, and supercaps around 20 (because the supercaps have those HUGE engines).
These mods are pretty damn cool, though it might screw with some missions that make assumptions about relative ship speeds. (Why can't everyone just use cap-waypoint-speed?)