[nos_mercenary]

I have found a very good article that theorizes quite a bit about the shivans.  i suggest we put it into the Shivan part of the wiki, but i do not know where the author is and thus can't get his permission.  help? (and the article is in general freespace, also title the shivan manifesto.  very long)

[karajorma]

The Shivan manifesto gets discussed all the time but it's worth remembering that it is just one persons interpretation of the events of FS1 and FS2. It's not in any way canon and several people (myself included) disagree with several of the central arguments.

[aldo_14]

What kara said; the Shivan Manifesto is basically speculation, so it's no more valid as canon than, say, Inferno or the Capellan BBQ theory.  IIRC it has a number of holes in the logic, too, and relies a lot on supposition.

  I'd recommend against putting any fanon type stuff of this ilk in the wiki, as it's liable to being misinterpreted as canon, and it also risks people not developing their own ideas.  At most, we should put external links to discussion thread about this and other theories, but I think highlighting one theory alone - be it the SM or otherwise - is somewhat unfair to everyone with their own theories.  IMO, the only reason the SM is seemingly so popular in this regard (vis-a-vis other theories) is because a) it is quite long and b) most campaigns can't, don't or won't publish their own ideas for obvious reasons.

[NGTM-1R]

IMO, if somebody were to collect all the theories and write them up, it wouldn't be particularly bad to place them in a marked "fanon" section.

[karajorma]

I don't object to it being in a completely seperate section of the wiki. I wouldn't want it to be in the same articles as the canon stuff though,

[WMCoolmon]

Make a 'shivan manifesto' page. It sounds like something that might be searched for.

[Black Wolf]

I'm againt it, personally. The Shivan Manifesto is already seen as semi canon by some people, and I don't think we need to encourage that by putting it in the wiki. The way I see it, non canon info in the wiki should be footnote stuff, details - not major, full page articles.

[WMCoolmon]

I disagree, that is exactly the sort of thing that should be in the wiki. I mean, if we're going to keep redirecting new users to the wiki and complaining when people don't use it, we can't intentionally leave stuff out even though it's important. Something like the Shivan Manifesto is perfect, because it can have its own page with a "this is non-canon" warning at the top of it, and it's something that people would probably mention as the "Shivan Manifesto" but will be buried in some thread. (And since search is out, it's kind of a pain to find it.)

What with the SCP and all, the FS wiki has to be more of a community thing rather than just a list of all the stuff in FS1 and FS2.

[Black Wolf]

How about some sort of "Theories on the Shivans" or "Theories on the Ending of Freespace 2" page? Something that we can demarcate clearly as non canon, fan speculated, and where we can present multiple viewpoints without promoting one over another?

[WMCoolmon]

 

Sounds almost exactly like the whole ID/Ev thing.

I really don't care. I just think that the Shivan Manifesto should be in the wiki because it's one of the very few theories on Shivan behavior that's put together as a cohesive entity, and people reference it frequently. Sort of like the Federalist papers' connection to the Constitution, they aren't law in any way, but they do shed a certain light on how it can be interpreted and are well-known enough that others might base their interpretation on that, so they're a valuable read even if your opinion is totally different, because they effect the way people see things.

But to be honest that's over-analyzing it a little too much.

I think a general theory page on Shivans would be good (say, a Shivan Origins and/or Shivan Motives page(s)) with links to specific theories. I can't think of any off the top of my head, other than campaign-linked ones and of course the Manifesto, but I don't see any problem with them being in there. I just don't think we should try and limit or summarize them to make them 'appear' fair, just make it clear that they aren't canon and let people think what they will. The wiki is meant to be a reference, not a way of life, after all.

[karajorma]

The MindGames theory although very specific to MG is pretty much out in the open so that could probably be added. I quite like Aldo's explaination too.

[TopAce]

We should make an article, one which has a link to the Shivan Manifesto we all know. The article may only mention what a Shivan Manifesto is, what aspects it contains and why it was written.

I don't know enough about this piece of writing, so I daren't start such article.

We have the non-canon template anyway and there are non-canon stuff in the Wiki already.

[Black Wolf]

Just because it's already in there doesn't mean we have to encourage people to add things at random and get even more in. I still intend to cleanse the wiki of as much non canon stff as I can eventually.

[Wanderer]

I wouldn't mind non-canon stuff as long as it would be clearly indicated as such. With templates, colors tags or separate headers, what ever. And also the source (if any) of the non-canon material should be indicated.

But i would rather see canon articles to be without any non-canon material but articles could have links to non-canon material (on separate pages).

[TopAce]

Just because it's already in there doesn't mean we have to encourage people to add things at random and get even more in. I still intend to cleanse the wiki of as much non canon stff as I can eventually.

We could do something like WikiSource.

[IPAndrews]

The Shivan manifesto gets discussed all the time

Really? I've never seen one of these discussions. Sounds quite interesting too. I'd like to see how the Shivan Manifesto differs from say... the Dalek's 3 word Manifesto.

[StratComm]

It gets discussed all the time because some people have read it and assume that it is using actual canonical sources rather than conjecture as its basis.  I don't like it at all myself, and I get really annoyed when people start refering to it as the basis for some argument, as it really isn't canon at all.  As I understand it, the wiki's primary purpose is a collection of Freespace knowledge, but most of this knowledge relates to installing the game, or FSO, or mods, or whatever. Canon reference is fine, but do we really want noncanon mess cluttering things up?

[aldo_14]

The MindGames theory although very specific to MG is pretty much out in the open so that could probably be added. I quite like Aldo's explaination too.

I wasn't aware I'd posted my explanation(?)

[NGTM-1R]

I don't like it at all myself, and I get really annoyed when people start refering to it as the basis for some argument,

...to summarize opposing arguments.

Seriously though, quite a few of you people seem to be mainly opposed to its entry into the wiki because you don't like what it has to say. It's the first argument, the primary argument, you offer. Well, get down off your hobbyhorses and explain to me why it shouldn't be added again.

As the source on all things Freespace, the wiki needs to have...all things Freespace. Like the Shivan Manifesto, and any other Shivan theories that can be scrounged up. Yes, they should go in a non-canon section, but honestly no one has offered a coherent argument against adding them at all. This is knowledge of FS too.

[karajorma]

I wasn't aware I'd posted my explanation(?)

I've stiched it together from various posts on numerous topics

I especially like the idea that Bosch was played by the Shivans to get him to open the Knossos portal for instance.


@ngtm1r : You'll notice I haven't said I don't want the Manifesto in the wiki. I don't paricularly care either way. My main points are these.

• If the Manifesto is added it should not appear on any page that contains canon info. It should be completely seperate.
• All entries for non-canon information need to be labelled as such at the top of the page.
• Adding any non-canon info to the wiki presents a certain danger. If a new user were to turn up and push that the Shivans blew up Capella to prevent the attack of a giant space badger his theory would have the same validity as the Shivan Manifesto does. There are lots of people who think the Shivan Manifesto is seriously flawed too.
• The proper place for the discussion of theories is on the forums not the wiki. If someone puts up a theory on the wiki it has to stay there unedited even if there is a gaping flaw in the argument. Doing otherwise will simply result in the wiki turning into another forum with everyone editing out percieved errors in the theory. You might think that the Shivan Manifesto needs no corrections but would you be as willling to sit on your hands and leave Space Badger alone? [
• Adding any non-canon information to the wiki has the effect of legitimising it even if it is non-canon. There are already people treating the Manifesto as if it wasn't just one theory amongst many. The fact that FS2's ending left everything so open is one of the reasons that the community is still around. I'd hate to see people stiffling new and inovative ideas in favour of something from the wiki. I'd prefer to see the wiki as a place you go to check your facts. If you want to dicuss ideas go to the forums.

While I'm at it, exactly how long have I been moderator for this forum? Not that I mind but I'd never spotted it till now.