[aldo_14]

In all your criticisms of my own statements, BD, you're making the same sort of assumptions without evidence.  I freely admit I'm just guessing here (it's just a pain in the arse to add IMO equivalents to my own replies), but I'm sure you'd agree this type of debate is always circular in nature because the lack of unambigious statements within FS1/ST/FS2 leads us to add in personal philosophy.

Nitpicking highlights; we don't know that the Shivans are star destroyers (i.e. that Capella was intentionally nova-ed), also the reference to pharoahs rather than 'a peasant in Ancient Egypt' is a lot better sounding (avoids the repetition of 'Ancient Egypt' from the previous line, plus a pharoah is generally a more easily imagined cultural reference than a peasant), the point I was making RE: the 'but' was that the intonation, style, tone etc can have a lot of subtle meanings and even ask questions (especially as it's a monologue postulated as a 'what if?' - you yourself mention 'reading between the lines' for the monologues, and that's exactly what this is, so why dismiss it because you don't happen to like that idea), and you're completely wrong to assume that I'm using 'ideas' as a way to dissasociate Bosch from having relevance to the storyline (as in actuality I'm suggesting he has a role that is not a linear 'true' description of events, in the same sense as we can't regard Petrarchs postulations in the last thread as literal truth or the only option to consider).  I found the bold bits a little condescending, actually, because you're highlighting stuff that's no literal truth, especially when it comes to allusions and interpretations of the FS2 ending, which makes it sound like you're declaring this as some obvious fact when it's not) - which is why I felt compelled to reply.  Often the most, um, 'forceful' reply (which I tend to do myself) seems to 'win' these little arguements, which is sometimes a little wrong IMO because they are usually a draw.

This is exactly what I mean from the Bagpuss thing, though, because we're both probably vastly over-analysing this (on the basis of what is said, it seems - offhand - like the Shivans were travelling to another galaxy* via Capella and Bosch wanted to tag along, but that's far too simple for most of us, including me ).And you're right in that there's no point batting this about, but all I want to say is that neither you, nor I, nor anyone is definitively right on any of this.

*particularly given the dropped 'Exodus' subtitle.

[BlackDove]

Like I said, and I'll quote what I said:

In the end as a summation - we can all play the "yeeeeeeeah but that's not how they said and I don't accept your opinions because they left that part open and I had some other ideas here" - that's true, but it doesn't invalidate the fact that some of us have more logical solutions to the story of FreeSpace, and some of us less.

Subsequently I provided you with my ideas above and the reasoning for them so I see no need to reiterate - so far there hasn't been anyone to come along and make a more or equal statement as far as value goes, so that is why I'm going with my interpertations and assumptions. When I see someone make a better argument, I will accept it over my own. That's just how it goes.

Sorry if I sounded condescending with the bold stuff, just was trying to bold the important bits of my opinions.

edit:(which you pointed out in the end of your post - sorry it's hard to concerntrate)

But like you said

no point batting this about, but all I want to say is that neither you, nor I, nor anyone is definitively right on any of this.

That is true and I agree. It's just that I also think that the first part of this post is the way to go about it if we can't be completely right. (which we can't)

[karajorma]

Sorry Kara, I made some clarifications in my reply to aldo, so if you really want to reply you'll have to do it to that part as well, but like I said, I won't play the quote game you guys use to discuss.

I read them. I don't find them that applicable to the main thrust of my argument (That :V: could very easily have been setting us up only to take a completely different path than you are thinking of).

we don't know that the Shivans are star destroyers (i.e. that Capella was intentionally nova-ed)

Given that the Shivans are supposedly part of a bigger problem we have no proof that they weren't killed in a failed attempt to stop Capella going nova. Of course the question then becomes what did blow up Capella?

As I said before having such an open ended plotline is such a godsend for the community.

[BlackDove]

Sorry Kara, I made some clarifications in my reply to aldo, so if you really want to reply you'll have to do it to that part as well, but like I said, I won't play the quote game you guys use to discuss.

I read them. I don't find them that applicable to the main thrust of my argument (That :V: could very easily have been setting us up only to take a completely different path than you are thinking of).

Again if you want to discuss it, you can reach me at the irc string above, but unless you state it openly, I can't refute it or agree with it.

[karajorma]

I did state it openly. All your conclusions are based on the fact that you believe that weren't preparing a big plot twist whereby they reveal that Bosch was wong and something else was going on.

I don't really need to state what the something else was. It could be any of the other myriad theories that exist. All I need is to do is get you to accept the possibility that were setting us up and I'll have proved that what the Shivans were up to in the past, present and future might not be half as cut and dried as you claimed it was.

[BlackDove]

There are no theories that exist, that's the point. Not any coherent ones anyway that I can latch on to as possible.

And it sounds very unlikely that was planning any big plot twist where Bosch was wrong. Considering it's unlikely, I just much rather take to my own beliefs, which are likely.

The reason it's unlikely, is because we have a good frame of reference with three games already that followed a certain pattern. Unless you describe your already unlikely course, mine remains on the top.

[karajorma]

If you think it's unlikely then so be it. I find it completely plausable. In fact I find it more interesting than him actually being completely right.

You've limited yourself to a universe where something must be true because a character hypothesised out loud that it might be that way. I'd prefer to go with the theory that just cause a character hypothesises something doesn't necessarily make it so. Otherwise you are also left with the fact that the shivans definitely did use the destruction of Capella to get home just because Petrach says so.

[WMCoolmon]

Exactly why it's called a plot twist.

Not really WM, there are no assumptions that the Shivans kicked the Ancients' asses and the civilizations prior to the Ancients.

As much the fact is that the player wasn't told "That's how it happened", you have to be pretty retarded not to have gotten the hint and accepted it.

'Scuse me? And this isn't basing your arguments on assumptions, how?

Maybe the Manifesto makes assumptions that you don't agree with, however, for any kind of guess about What Freespace 3 Would Be Like, you have to make assumptions, even if you are holding a copy of the full Freespace 3 script, direct from Volition, in your hands. Because there's no certainty that it would've actually been used.

So you can complain about the Manifesto, but the thing is, while it has problems, it doesn't totally contradict any explicitly established elements of the Freespace universe. Volition could use it for Freespace 3 and retcon little to nothing in Freespace through Freespace 2, regardless of where you thought it was headed.

As such it's a valid theory for Freespace 3, it's a widely supported theory in the community, so it's worth having an article about in the wiki. If nothing else, it gives a chance to add the "fanon" notice at the top of the page so that people understand what exactly it is.

And like I said, if someone can make as convincing an argument as the Manifesto for the theory that the Shivans nuked Capella to gain the help of Space Badgers, then they are welcome to have an article about that in the wiki aswell, but it will have the same "fanon" notice as the Manifesto.

[karajorma]

After this discussion I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather see the fanon left out of the wiki completely.

I'd rather see our Freespace encyclopedia aspire to something like the Britannica, only reporting well documented fact than follow wikipedia with its idiotic attempts to please everyone (Graham Hanccock on the entry for the Pyramids? Please! ).

The wiki is meant to be the sum of the communities knowledge. The forum is the place for conjecture about the game.

[BlackDove]

Exactly why it's called a plot twist.

Not really WM, there are no assumptions that the Shivans kicked the Ancients' asses and the civilizations prior to the Ancients.

As much the fact is that the player wasn't told "That's how it happened", you have to be pretty retarded not to have gotten the hint and accepted it.

'Scuse me? And this isn't basing your arguments on assumptions, how?

Maybe the Manifesto makes assumptions that you don't agree with, however, for any kind of guess about What Freespace 3 Would Be Like, you have to make assumptions, even if you are holding a copy of the full Freespace 3 script, direct from Volition, in your hands. Because there's no certainty that it would've actually been used.

So you can complain about the Manifesto, but the thing is, while it has problems, it doesn't totally contradict any explicitly established elements of the Freespace universe. Volition could use it for Freespace 3 and retcon little to nothing in Freespace through Freespace 2, regardless of where you thought it was headed.

As such it's a valid theory for Freespace 3, it's a widely supported theory in the community, so it's worth having an article about in the wiki. If nothing else, it gives a chance to add the "fanon" notice at the top of the page so that people understand what exactly it is.

And like I said, if someone can make as convincing an argument as the Manifesto for the theory that the Shivans nuked Capella to gain the help of Space Badgers, then they are welcome to have an article about that in the wiki aswell, but it will have the same "fanon" notice as the Manifesto.

Like I said, and I'll say it again, there is a spectrum of logical and illogical things - the manifesto belongs in the illogical section of off the wall crap.

It is only so much of a valid theory for FS3 as much as the Capella BBQ theory is. That doesn't however mean that all theories are equally valid, because there is a degree of sane and insane interpertations.

But that is beside the point.

Separate issue is that the manifesto or any other plausable or non-plausable interpertation doesn't belong in the Wikipedia period. This is where we disagree. You seem to be of the thought that senseless crap as well as good ideas belong there, while I don't - regardless of them being good or bad.

I was just making distinctions between coherent ideas and off-the-wall ones when I discussed the manifesto.

That clear it up for you? Read Kara's post above mine.

[StratComm]

I don't like the Shivan Manifesto because it is a comprehensive theory.  I totally disagree with it on several key points, as I firmly believe that it is refuted by what we see in the only "canon" source that exists.  But then it is only an opinion one way or another and isn't part of my argument to keep it out of the wiki.  I'm fine with putting it somewhere with a big "this is not canon" flag on it, but I would hate to have it mistaken for something official as that is already happening with it's current existance as a single thread on the board.  It should be obvious that it is just a single way of reading the events of Freespace, coupled with a lot of assumptions and suppositions, and yet very often it is used as some infallible source of info.  That is ultimately my problem with it, and I'd have the same problem if my own thoughts on the Shivans were "widely supported by the community."  I wouldn't be protesting if there were multiple theories to put in the same place, but to only include the one when it is hardly agreed upon is wrong IMHO.

And even if/when it is put up, all that really needs to happen is to add a link to the discussion board thread about it with the disclaimer and perhaps a discussion on its merits and shortcomings as a fan-made story.  It doesn't need to be copied verbatim into the wiki because it is already on the same server.

[WMCoolmon]

Rather than rant some more, here is my rough idea of what the Manifesto page should be like:

http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Shivan_Manifesto

I would've preferred a more evident non-canon notice, but I didn't know how to put one on there without searching around for a bit. Something with a box, like the notice at the top of this page.

My point is - whether we think something is crap or not, if it is important enough within the community then it should be in the wiki. We already have 'fanon' in there - user-made campaigns. If we're going to shut out community developments, then the Wiki should not be a community wiki, but rather a separate project or even website.

Better that people can look up the Manifesto and see that it's non-canon, rather than poke through a half-dozen threads of interpretation and walk away thinking that Volition ripped off Titan AE.

Ack, StratComm posted.

If there are other theories available to put up, then I'm totally fine with that. I'd be interested in having them around to read, if nothing else. Ideally, I'd see them linked to on an 'Origins of the Shivans' page, which would list relevant facts from FS1 and FS2, then have some discussion on popular theories (ie Shivans evolved in space) and links to whatever specific theories (Mindgames, Manifesto) exist.

At the very least it will give people an idea of where other people have gone before, rather than suggesting the same things over and over again.

[Goober5000]

You think the pharoahs of Ancient Egypt could have imagined a lightning struck gaseous nebula in the depths of space?  Hell, the Pharoahs never even knew the world was round, let alone the cosmos.

The cosmos is flat, not round!

[WMCoolmon]

To be honest, even though I can imagine the cloud and all, I'm not too sure about actually going with the sound in space thing, or Bosch's voice following me around as I drift through a nebula full of toxic gases.

[BlackDove]

whether we think something is crap or not, if it is important enough within the community then it should be in the wiki.

That Manifesto is not important - at all. Theories on Shivans are a dime a dozen.

[WMCoolmon]

It's a *checks article* 30-page persuasive essay for an interpretation about pretty much anything Shivan, that's referenced regularly when a topic related to the Shivans comes up. I'll reference ID/Ev - even if you think the other side is spewing complete crap, it's still a good idea to be familiar with the other side's position so you can argue against it.

It was referenced on the first page of this thread[/url, actually, and someone posted in wikipedia that it was canon.

[StratComm]

I actually like what you've done with it WMC.  Again, I wish there were examples of competing theories up, but then no one has taken near that amount of time in putting something like that together.  I wish I knew more Wiki code to help make the non-canon warning clearer, but as a general summary and source for details on the Shivan Manifesto this more than adequately addresses my concerns with it.  A little more polish, and an overarching "origins of the Shivans" page and this gets my vote as to how to do it.

[aldo_14]

Dammit, I want to see the Space Badger Armada now.........

Anyways, I think it's fair to say - no fanon allowed in the wiki.

[knn]

I like the wiki page, and IMO there should be more fanon stuff in the wiki (except the Space Badger theory)
Like the plot and theories of fanmade campaigns (once they are released and not secret any more, with a huge spoiler and non canon warning, so you don't have to play through the campaign again to find out one minor detail, and of course only if the author(s) agree to put it up)
But that warning should be much bigger, I didn't even notice it. The 'Summary of the Manifesto' title is bigger and draws your attention away from it. Could you increase the text size perhaps? Or put one big Warning title over it?

[Wanderer]

Any better now?

I thought the spoiler / non-canon spoilers were too small and i was going to try to make bigger ones at some point anyway...