[dr_costas]

hi all,

after reading with interest all the above topics I wanted to express my opinion:

seems everyone is right but from a different angle. I am not verse with the whole fs universe but I agree with mobious that a wiki page with all inconsistencies would be interesting for fans. However, calling them all retcons is not proper either unless there is evidence. Hard evidence.

If in FS1 there were 2 stable jumpnodes in sol (dont know, just saying) and then in FS2 some map shows only one, then this is retcon.

if in FS1 there were no beams used by shivans but in FS2 there are, this is inconsistency but not recon. If however there is a mention that there should be beams in FS1 in text or artwork or video, then it is retcon. FS1 is not FS2 and vice versa.

If there is no real contradiction with hard facts, then retcon is just another theory as to what happened.

My theory is that the universe exists in between missions and the player may have had communications about the beams before the mission briefing. Someones theory might be that V actually changed the shivans and gave them beams trying to persuade everyone that they had them all along.

[Mobius]

First of all, I really want to say that I'm amazed of what someone is posting here. Looks like certain people are more interested on offending and pointing someone else out as illogical instead of contributing in a notable way to the debate. Seriously, guys, if you don't have anything to say then don't post.

Can I just get this straight here? What I'm saying is that this entire thread is just your opinion. Everything you say which isn't definitely fact is nothing more than opinion. And just FYI, what you're saying here isn't ''fact''. It's inference, guesswork if you will, taken from the absence of certain statements in FS2 and other very vague comments.

Look, the problem I have with this being included in the Wiki is the fact that it's just some people's opinion. It's not even established material agreed upon by people. This entire retcon idea is plainly your idea, your opinion, your theory. It's not fact. Perhaps if you presented it as your opinion I wouldn't be so miffed.

I'm the one who's missing the point? For some strange reason, you appear to refuse everything that somewhat compromises FS1's role as "the best in the series"(because that's what retcon does, by underlining the fact that FS2's changes are well placed and planned to make their FS1 counterparts obsolete).

And due, "opinions"? I didn't come out with a theory like the others, which mix canon and non-canon stuff. Everything


There's a bad approach, that is all. Leaving certain stuff as "inconsistencies", without even mentioning retcon, leaves those inconsistencies as "What to do with them?" aspects of FS plot development. The word "inconsistency" says absolutely nothing and is only a way to confuse people. One example is the FS2 Intro, in which the Manticore that takes down the Hercules has reversed firing points. "Inconsistency" is the word used to define the issue although it'd be a lot more appropriate to use the words "error" and "mistake".

As you yourself said, quantity does not equal quality.  The Ancients may have had massive fleets spread out over thousands (maybe even millions) of star systems, but we know for a fact that they weren't all that far ahead of the Terrans and Vasudans in terms of their technological developments.  Do yourself a favor and try lining up a thousand FS1-armed Orions in front of a FS1-armed Lucifer.  Notice what happens?  That's right...the Lucifer cheerfully plows its way through the lot of them without suffering a scratch, even if the entire bomber complement of each Orion were launched against it.  Outside of subspace, it's literally an invincible ship in the FS1 era, and based on what the Ancients themselves say, it was equally invincible to them; even if the "shields" reference may have extended to fighters and bombers, it most certainly described the Lucifer.  You don't even need to bother with the rest of the Shivan fleet; that single ship could have done the job all by itself.

It is so epic to imagine that the Ancients got crushed by a single Lucifer...yeah, it's so epic... 

Quantity over quality? The Ancients were aggressive, well equipped and full of pride. It's more than believable that their levels of training and technology were good enough to let them base their strategies on both quality and quantity.



I compiled a list of "potential" retcons that will be analyzed in the article. As you may noticed, many of them haven't been discussed here (but I'd be glad to know what you guys think about them). Please note that the article will not sound as a definitive and clear voice, meant to replace everything else - that's why there will be a proper and moderate introduction to the subject at the beginning.


FreeSpace Universe Starmap

More like the only widely accepted retcon so far.


Vasudan Naming Convention

Analysis of ship naming conventions and how they changed in FS2. I will mention the Hope, the Rasputin, and the fact that all Vasudan ship names in FS2 are Egyptian(it didn't happen in FS1).


Capabilities Of The Ancients

Using canon references, I'll add an analysis of what the Ancients' capabilities probably were and how the lack of vital info in FS2 left us with FS1 sources, only.


Changes In Shivan Design

Analysis of the radical changes in Shivan designs noted in FS2, probably intended by as a development of Shivan concepts to boost the game.


Introduction Of Shivan Beams

By mentioning the Lucifer's "flux cannons" and a few fanmade theories, I'll analyze the introduction of Shivan beams in FS2.

[Snail]

And due, "opinions"? I didn't come out with a theory like the others, which mix canon and non-canon stuff.

For **** sake, man, you are missing the ****ing point.


I don't give a half of a half of a half of a **** (a half quarter of a ****/an eighth of a ****) what you think. For all I care you could add a whole section of your own bull**** into the Wiki.





WHAT I DO CARE ABOUT IS YOU PRESENTING YOUR VIEWS AS FACT.

YOUR VIEWS ARE NOT FACT.


DO WHATEVER YOU WANT, AS LONG AS YOU SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT FACT, BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT FACT.

THESE ARE NOT FACTS, THEY ARE YOUR VIEWS!!

[Commander Zane]

 

[Snail]

Look, mate. Difference between fact and opinion:


FreeSpace is cool - OPINION
FreeSpace is cool. Some people may agree, some may disagree. Either way, it's an opinion. It's not fact. It should not be presented as such.


FreeSpace is a game - FACT
There's no refuting that FreeSpace is a game. You cannot disagree with this. It can be presented as the truth, simply because it is the truth. FreeSpace is irrefutably a game.


Similarly:


Some say FreeSpace is cool - FACT
Some people do say that FreeSpace is a game. It's the truth.



FreeSpace should be retconned - OPINION
FreeSpace shouldn't be retconned - OPINION
Both of these are opinions.



Some members believe FreeSpace should be retconned - FACT
This is a fact. There is no refuting that some say that it should be retconned.



What's bugging me here is that Mobius is trying to present his views as some kind of over-arching ultimate solution to the inconsistencies of the game. They're not. What Mobius says is his views.


Look, all I'm asking for is this, at the beginning of the article:

"Some members believe that FS2 overrules FS1 canon blahblahblah" as opposed to "FS2 definitely overrules FS1 canon blahblahblahblah."




Other than that, I have no problems with this retcon idea.

[Commander Zane]

I know the difference between fact and opinion.
But I think your example of an opinion should be a fact anyway.

[Snail]

I know the difference between fact and opinion.

Some people in this thread don't.

[General Battuta]

Oooh, I see. Snail's points make even more sense than they did before, and although I had a general sense Mobius was wrong, I now see specifically why he's wrong.

Thank you, Snail, that last post was well-put.

[Mobius]

1) I think Snail should be banned, because he's uncapable of discussing in a polite way. If he doesn't get banned, I'll seriously want to know what the reasons behind that choice will be like;

2) I want comments regarding my list to improve it. This is not a General FreeSpace thread, I created this one in the Wiki because I have something in the works and I want constructive criticism before posting the final product.

I can't be bothered to consider Snail's behavior, since his only concern is offending me rather than contributing to the debate. He keeps his fingers insise his ears and refuses to join a peaceful debate only because he doesn't like me and the subject. That's ground for a ban, if you ask me.

Since I assume this thread will soon get locked I encourage people who want to contribute to the article to PM me and wait for the creation of the article. Thanks in advance;

[Snail]

Look, Mobius, I don't not like you or anything. What i don't like is your opinions and your assertions that what you say is irrefutably the truth or something.

It's not the frikken truth man. It's your opinion. And until you get that through that thick skull of yours, I won't shut up.


Ban me if the admins will, when I return I'll return like TrashMan with a vengeance.

[Goober5000]

Eh, I'm just going to lock this and say enough is enough.  Nobody's getting banned.