[IPAndrews]

Crashes in TBP Final are next to nonexistent for the end user and you know it.

[karajorma]

They're uncommon and I don't think it's fair to say that TBP is buggy. But there are some end user bugs still. Multiplayer particularly is affected by them.

Now whether they are due to TBP data or SCP code is the whole issue that caused this problem.

[IPAndrews]

I don't think it's fair to say that TBP is buggy.

Hopefully that will be the last of the SCP team trying to portray TBP Final as a bug ridden calamity for their own personal gain then. That would certainly be positive progress. At least in the realms of honesty.

[Bobboau]

"But there are some end user bugs still. Multiplayer particularly is affected by them."

hopefully the whole of the TBP team (consisting of IPAndrews and tomcat apparently) will be willing to address this issue someday some way.

[Goober5000]

for their own personal gain

Please tell me what the SCP team stands to gain personally from this thread.

[IPAndrews]

hopefully the whole of the TBP team (consisting of IPAndrews and tomcat apparently) will be willing to address this issue someday some way.

TBP's final status:

I am not going to discuss the decision the TBP *team* made to end development of TBP here. It was an internal decision. No public consultation was required. It is not up for being second guessed. It is not up for debate. It will not be reversed. It is none of the SCP team's business. It is none of the public's buciness. All things come to an end. It was our right to bring it to an end. We did. Last year!

I cannot make it any clearer and I hope (although I would be pleasantly surprised) there are some reasonable people who can understand this.

Meanwhile this debate, is not a debate, the decision was made as discussed above. Also there appear to be four kinds of people visiting this thread. Megalomaniac SCP team members. SCP team members who don't want to be associated with megalomaniac SCP team members. Random members of the public jumping to odd conclusions from invented details. Oh and then there's me. Stubbornly 100% happy with the decisions my team made. So really given everyone is rooted in their positions we are all wasting our time. Let's go do something else.

[castor]

I read this so that the former TBP team just wants to be left alone and not be pestered with TBP related issues anymore. And it makes perfect sense too, nothing is forever anyway. These people have already done more for us than I'd ever even dare to hope.
 
I understand they want to protect their work - after so many years you can hardly just drop it like it was nothing. Then again, it's pretty impossible to stop people from tinkering with it as it has been released via internets. Yet the team should be given the possiblity to step aside with dignity. Maybe a solution would be to release any HLP endorsed post-TBP modifications via projects of their own? Add-ons maintained and distributed clearly and completely separate from the TBP itself.

[Bas]

<- Has only read the first page

I want to ask (as an "outsider" ) whats wrong if ppl want to fix your mod? A personal question: Have you wrote the mod for your own ego or for the community and the players? I understand that you dont want other ppl working at your project, but you should re-wage what is more important.

[Polpolion]

I haven't seen IPAndrews deny that TBP's bugs are harmful to the SCP's development. All I've heard him say is that the SCP is trying to take over TBP. Nothing more. To be honest, that's completely unreasonable. If TBP bugs really are getting in the way of SCP development and TBP really won't fix them, then TBP should be removed from HLP, assuming that IPAndrews will not allow someone that does want to fix the supposed bugs to take over.

If they want it to be "done" and there are still bugs left, good for them. We'll blame then for leaving with an unfinished project. But if in doing that, they're compromising another project's ability to work, a project that they're using as a base for their mod, then they don't really have a right to drop it while their bugs are clogging up Mantis.

[chief1983]

I'm sorry but just because a bug doesn't necessarily affect the end user experience doesn't mean it's not a bug.  A bug is a bug is a bug.  The very fact that bugs have been found and corrected in this internal patch implies that bugs did exist in the TBP final release, whether or not they were at all noticeable.

Heh, our personal gain?  I stand by my previous statement:

This is going to go down into HLP history as the source of some major lulz if some things aren't sorted out post-haste.

In all seriousness though, if you're trying to wrap your head around this, please don't start accusing either side of behaving one way or the other, it's not really bringing anything helpful to this thread.  It should be clear that this thread isn't bringing across the entire story, so it's not a good way to grasp what's been going on.  What there is to bring from this thread, is that the veteran TBP staff has long ceased plans to offer any more support in the way of development for TBP, but IPA would consider a community supported patchset to ensure future compatibility a reasonable suggestion.  You may also gather that the community is interested in working toward that end, so I think it's safe to say that this thread has in fact seen its purpose achieved.

Actually I just noticed the slam of FotG in the first post, I must have stopped reading short of it.  While it's not giving credit to the fact that Brand had a hard drive crash and has pretty much had to start over, hence the reason for the new and improved versions of all the models, there's still a kernel of truth in what he had to say about discipline, so I can respect what he had to say.  Could have been a bit more tactful though.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I hate to even post in these types of situations but lets get some facts laid out. 

First TBP was finalize 5/20/08.  The installer and DVD were released later but that was the last compilation of the 3.4b core.  This whole issue SCP/TBP arose on 1/20/09.  That's 8 months after the final release.  There were at least 6 beta builds that tried to fix all the problems that could be fixed before 3.4b before the final.  That doesn't count 3.4 or 3.4a builds. 

Vidmaster and I officially joined the TBP team at about the same time as the final release.  With the release of the DVD the project was considered done and moved from a development stage to a FREDer stage.  In doing so IP stepped down as head of TBP and turned the forums over to Vid and I.  When we took over there was one thing that we promised to do:

Keep the 3.4b core as the final version of TBP.  No patches, nothing overrides the core data.  That was and is the golden rule an is clearly stated in the TBP rules thread. 

This does not hinder or halt and fan made development it merely means anything need to be done as a mod. 



The current situation started off simple enough with a question about TBP being final in the TBP internal forum.  I received a message from IP about his ICQ (or whatever messenger) conversation with Goober on the same day.  At almost the same time I received a PM from Goober to go to ICQ which I did.  We had a civil conversation about the status of TBP and possible solutions.  I explained the above status of TBP 3.4b being final and there would not be a patch.  I acknowledged that there are bugs and I should know as I run debug builds constantly in TBP to work out the bugs in multi.  I do the same in FS2 except when I decide to just play for fun.  I too paged through all those warnings for almost a year because I didn't know about the -no_warn flag.  I agree it is a pain in the but and know that the coders can't us the -no_warn flag to skip the bugs.  I put forth the following ideas:

TBP stays final
I reproduce all bugs possible in FS2. 
I am not against any updates but said updates need to be in a mod folder. 
I even stated a complete MediaVP style update in the future wouldn't be out of the question.

Now you may ask why a mod folder.  First it preservers the 3.4b final rule because the core data is not changed and TBP final can be played by simply turning off the mod.  Second if the patch does break existing campaigns and missions it can simply be turned off and those missions will work again.  Third FREDers have the choice of writing for TBP final or the mod.  Some FREDers want to keep their stuff compatible with the 3.4b core and use the 3.6.9 exes that are included with TBP Final. 

At this point  I thought the issue was resolved until I received a second summons to an ICQ session on the 23rd.  I stated the same things as before an again thought the situation was resolved.  Then out of the blue on the 30th I received a message containing the following:

I have raised the subject of dropping support for TBP in the SCP internal.  I should warn you that Taylor, karajorma, Wanderer, and I have all directly experienced the frustration of trying to work with a bug-ridden mod, and we will all likely be in favor of terminating support.  And I'd be willing to bet that the other members of SCP would be in favor as well, once they see our position and verify TBP's problems for themselves.

"Discontinuing support" would mean that all TBP-specific Mantis bugs would be closed, all TBP-specific Launcher options (such as the -tbp command line option) would be disabled, and there would be a popup upon game start saying that TBP is not supported by the SCP.  In addition we would remove TBP from the list of validated multiplayer mods for FS2NetD.

The message continued but that was when the you know what hit the fan.  Basically we were told fix it or we will break backward compatibility by removing all TBP specific features and multiplayer will be cut off.  Now having worked on multi for over a year I didn't take that very well and contacted Vid and IP.  Vid and I decided that the best course of action would be to talk to the other coders mentioned in the message.  So I did and received positive feedback from them about the ideas I put forth.  IP didn't take it as well and I can't blame him for that.  Things quickly spiraled downward in the TBP internal forum. 

During the downward spiral in the TBP internal we were also informed that people had been working on a patch for 3.4b.  No one bothered to ask or even inform us the people in charge of TBP about it.  There had been mention of members of the SCP making changes for their own personal use in fixing bugs.  This however was the first we heard of a patch and not only herd of it but were told TBP would be patched whether we wanted it to or not.  Not as a mod but as a 3.4c. 

Now how would you feel having clearly stated the position that TBP core is not to be changed, having put forward possible solutions and then being notified that your project was going to be updated by another team?  Pissed me off and it wasn't even my work in the 3.4b core. 

Now the downward spiral continued at an even faster pace starting with the thread in IP's signature.  Even the SCP team members that had thought a mod was a possible solution backed off their initial positions.  No longer was an update via mod and reporting bugs with FS2 data good enough solutions for some of them.  IP also withdrew the option for a mod because of this.  The models were now off limits for fixes. 

In the mean time we are trying to FRED an get mutiplayer up and running.  We are at a state where we don't even know if there will be multiplayer.  Pretty much all work on multiplayer has come down to finishing up what is currently being worked on and holding off on any new stuff as it may be a waste of time to make it in the first place.  How do you think we feel stuck in the middle?  We have to maintain our promise not to change 3.4b while trying to develop for a mod that may have support removed from the engine and multiplayer shut down. 

Thankfully things have started settling down a bit and hopefully cooler heads will prevail.  But don't jump to conclusions on who is wright an who is wrong.  I don't think there is even one person that knows the whole story.  As far as us not replying in threads like this there is an old saying:  "Leave sleeping dogs lie"  That is my approach.  When the dogs have rested then we will discuss the issues.  Threads such as this usually do no good but to anger both sides.  I could go on and on but I have other stuff to do..........

[General Battuta]

Okay, at the moment it looks like there mayyy be the potential for a consensus to emerge.

1) Would both parties be willing to work with an update if it was delivered as a mod, rather than a change to the core engine?

2) Would both parties be willing to consider the option of a 'Director's Cut' or 'TBP Special Edition' in the future, updating the core engine to 3.4c? This could come much later.

It would be great if TBP could continue in its position as one of the SCP's flagship total conversions. Although I think your commitment to finalizing TBP springs from the same commitment to reasonable milestones that made TBP so successful in the first place, we shouldn't let it stand in the way of a final step towards perfection.

As IPAndrews said, we've got to weigh the risks and rewards, and if at some point it seems like a rerelease of the core files wouldn't be too much of an issue -- it might even drum up new publicity! -- maybe the TBP team should do it.

In the mean time, we can deliver the patch as a mod in order to maintain multiplayer support.

Is that generally reasonable?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Lets keep discussion on that to the TBP forum.  It will just get confusing if we try to discuss it in both places. 

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,60953.0.html

Note all posts not relevant to the subject will be deleted. 

[General Battuta]

All right, I'll repost that last post of mine over there.

[karajorma]

And on that note I think it makes sense to close this thread. Discussion can continue on the TBP forums and since  I'm an active member of both teams and have argued both sides no one can complain I'm showing favouritism.