[Snail]

You're completely forgetting rotational dampening and movement dampening. Those make a lot of difference. And slide movement isn't useless in the slightest - disable it if you don't believe me.

If you still think Dragons are useless, turn the difficulty up to Insane and fight a wing of them in a Loki.

[Al Tarket]

Getting into a proper dogfight against a Dragon with an assault fighter isn't pleasant; if the opponent is any good it might be an exercise in futility. There is another option though: Standing still and pretending to be a gun turret negates any mobility advantage, and Shivan fighters don't have the firepower to slug it out like that. Unfortunately, coming to a full stop isn't advisable when under fire from several opponents.

standing still against a shivan fighter? the only way you can destroy a dragon with a disadvange is to turn away, yet that ship turn and come after you and you turn around quickly and catch that shivan with its pants down (if they have pants ).

I consider, Dragons to be vastly overrated (i.e. I think it's good but hardly overpowered). People simply fly the wrong craft against them. Or maybe the craft are the right ones, and being able to fight Dragons on equal terms simply isn't the most important criterion for the mission. Let's compare the Shivan Dragon against its closest match in terms of manoeverability and the craft I consider the best overall dogfighter in the GTVA.

the closest if up against the best would be the Ulysses without any doubts.

First, let's pit the Serapis (widely regarded a useless craft) against the it. Flight characteristics are close - the Dragon wins on top speed with afterburners and is slightly more manoeverable, the Serapis effectively has almost twice the afterburner capacity though. About even, with a slight advantage to the Dragon (I never found the sliding too useful... others might disagree).

The serapis is useless, i never ever choose that fighter for anything .

Despite its much-criticized shielding, a Serapis will hold out longer against the Dragon's 5 Heavy Lasers  than the Dragon will against 4 Prometheus S... in other words, Shivan primaries suck even harder than Vasudan shields. Not that it's a major draw for close-in dogfighting, but the Serapis also has a generous missile capacity.
Endurance in a lengthy dogfight could go either way... the Serapis has the problem that more than half its damage capacity is made up of armour instead of shields - which doesn't regenerate. On the other hand, the regeneration rate before shields are breached is impressive thanks to excellent energy output; the Dragon feels underpowered by comparison. On the whole, the Serapis outguns the Dragon even when adjusted for sturdiness.

i have edited fs2o so i can pilot the shivan crafts, and by far the most manoeuvreable is the astaroth in my view. followed by the dragon, however the dragon is always a deceptive craft, to match two of the most manoeuvreable crafts in a fight, and your trying to track a dragon down with the highest setting, is very very difficult indeed.

Target profile of either craft is excellent with a slight edge to the Serapis from my experience. Gun points are open to debate (decent for the Serapis; the Dragon's are quite bad when firing from both banks but the best in the game when giving up 11% of theoretical firepower by just using the triple bank). I for one would take the Dragon's any day.

the dragon has the firepower to stand up to the enemy, you have one of them on your back and youll be waving bye bye to your serapis before long .

On the whole, they are closely matched. I would prefer the Dragon when being shot down myself by enemy fighters is a major concern (the Serapis has the annoying tendency to blow up at the first mistake), the Serapis when I have to keep allies alive (killing anything with Shivan primaries takes ages. Doubly so if the targets are Shivan too) or there's a chance of being shot at by antifighter beams (very very bad news for most Shivan craft).

serapis has the annoying habit of exploding before it enters a mission! so why goto all the trouble to compare the craft if the serapis cant even last before the fight begins .

The Loki is just as fast as the Dragon, can control the distance thanks to more powerful afterburners and has a better power plant (very important since dogfights between agile yet well-shielded fighters can take some time). It will also last more than twice as long against 5 Shivan Heavy Lasers than a Dragon will against 4 Kaysers; this time the Dragon is solidly outgunned without any way to interpret the sturdiness/firepower comparison to its advantage.
The Dragon has the edge in target profile, gun points and manoeverability, and it is a pleasure to fly... but the Loki moves well enough that I can accept its shortcomings in exchange for almost 3 times the firepower.

if the herc can track a loki easy, i doubt these words are solid, however if you think the loki is as good as the dragon, so be it.

@ nvsblmnc: Pretty much the only mix I like is Maxims + something against fighters, and that only in 6-gun craft (6 equal guns go to waste; same firepower as using just the 4-gun bank). Otherwise I like a double load of the heaviest weapon that doesn't use a prohibitive amount of energy.

which is one of the drawbacks i said the erinyes has.

[Rodo]

You're completely forgetting rotational dampening and movement dampening. Those make a lot of difference. And slide movement isn't useless in the slightest - disable it if you don't believe me.

If you still think Dragons are useless, turn the difficulty up to Insane and fight a wing of them in a Loki.

been there... do not recomend it, I would dare to say that 1 dragon should prove enought challenge on insane.

[Iranon]

@ Snail: I did plenty of tests... bottom line: Most dogfights that I find hard in a Loki I will also find hard in a Dragon. Usually harder.

@ Al Tarket:

Yes, a Serapis with a Dragon on its tail has a problem. The whole point of my comparison was to point out that exactly the same is true for the reverse and that the best weapons a Serapis can carry will destroy a Dragon faster than the other way 'round. As to the firepower... each and every Terran craft outguns the Dragon, including a Pegasus armed with Subachs.

If you consider light Vasudan craft like the Serapis not survivable enough for some missions, I agree - I stated as much. However, there might be others that would be unplayable in Shivan craft with Shivan weaponry (you might survive, but stand no chance completing the mission because you simply can't take down the opposition before they destroy something you are supposed to protect). Whether you need firepower or survivability depends on the mission, but I thought it quite useful to compare one craft's weaponry to a competitor's damage potential - and the result is that, as a rule, GTVA craft can chew through Shivan craft more quickly than the other way round... if they can hit them.

Re the Herc vs. Loki argument: It actually supports my claim if you think the Herc can fight a Loki with a reasonable chance of success: The difference in manoeverability is comparable to the one between the Loki and the Dragon. However, the Herc is slower, doesn't have an advantage in power output, is a big fat target and the edge it has in terms of 'effective firewpower' (firepower vs. opponent's ability to absorb damage) is considerably smaller than the one of the Loki vs. the Dragon.

I really think most light fighters can take on Dragons reasonably well; GTVA craft are generally well-balanced against one another. Personally I consider the Loki agile enough and prefer its comparatively heavy firepower. The Ulysses always makes me curse its inadequate power plant. However, if other players would prefer the Ulysses or Pegasus I have no objections: Even the Pegasus would outlast the Dragon in a head-on slugout and its sizable speed advantage and tiny target might more than offset the Dragon's incredible manoeverability.

***

All of this assumes the Terran craft are wielding the best weapons compatible with the craft - Kaysers for the Loki, Prometheus S for the other light fighters. With only standard issue weaponry available, I would indeed put my money on the Dragon against anything else.

[Mars]

The Subach is much, much, better than shivan weaponry.

[Droid803]

You don't want to face a SF Dragon that actually has decent weaponry.
By that, I mean giving Kaysers to Dragons. BAD END.

[Snail]

The bad thing about the Shivans is their weaponry, which is piss weak.

[Al Tarket]

@ snails observation.

Suback HL-7

Code: [Select]

$Name:                                  @Subach HL-7
+Title:                                 XSTR("GTW Subach HL-7", 3243)
+Description:
XSTR(
"Standard Issue
Level 3 Hull Damage
Level 2 Shield Damage", 3244)
$end_multi_text
+Tech Title:     XSTR("Subach HL-7", 146)
+Tech Anim:                     Tech_Subach_HL-7
+Tech Description:
XSTR(
"The Subach-Innes HL-7 is a xaser weapon, firing an intense, highly focused beam of x-ray emissions. Until the Shivans appeared with their shield technology, these weapons were considered an unnecessary and costly extravagance. But Great War dogfights against Shivan craft quickly taught the Allies that their ships didn't stand a chance unless they could punch through shields. The HL-7 works superbly against shields of all varieties and has become the standard issue Primary weapon for all Terran fighters and bombers.", 3245)
$end_multi_text
$Model File: none
; The following fields (preceded by @) are only required for laser
; rendering, which requires that "Model File:" be none.
; These are the same values that used to be hard-coded:
@Laser Bitmap: newglo9
@Laser Glow: 2_laserglow03
@Laser Color: 250, 0, 0
@Laser Color2: 0, 0, 250
@Laser Length: 10.0
@Laser Head Radius: 0.90
@Laser Tail Radius: 0.90
$Mass: 0.2
$Velocity: 450.0 ;; speed of the weapon (initially) -- may or may not change
$Fire Wait: 0.2 ;; in seconds
$Damage: 15
$Armor Factor: 0.9
$Shield Factor: 0.7
$Subsystem Factor: 0.3
$Lifetime: 2.0 ;; How long this thing lives
$Energy Consumed: 0.20 ;; Energy used when fired
$Cargo Size: 0.0 ;; Amount of space taken up in weapon cargo
$Homing: NO
$LaunchSnd: 76 ;; The sound it makes when fired
$ImpactSnd: 85 ;; The sound it makes when it hits something
+Weapon Range: 100000 ;; Limit to range at which weapon will actively target object
$Flags: ("in tech database" "player allowed" "stream")
$Icon: iconSD4
$Anim: SD4
$Impact Explosion: none

Shivan Heavy Laser

Code: [Select]

$Name:                                  Shivan Heavy Laser
$Model File:                    none ;  laser1-1.pof
@Laser Bitmap:                  laserglow01
@Laser Glow:    2_laserglow03
@Laser Color:    200, 31, 30
@Laser Color2:    200, 31, 30
@Laser Length: 7.0
@Laser Head Radius: 0.90
@Laser Tail Radius: 0.30
$Mass: 0.2
$Velocity: 475.0                           ;; speed of the weapon (initially) -- may or may not change
$Fire Wait: 0.5                             ;; in seconds
$Damage: 15
$Armor Factor:                  1.0
$Shield Factor: 1.0
$Subsystem Factor: 1.0
$Lifetime: 2.0
$Energy Consumed:               0.40                            ;; Energy used when fired
$Cargo Size:                    0.0                             ;; Amount of space taken up in weapon cargo
$Homing: NO
$LaunchSnd:                     103                                     ;;      The sound it makes when fired
$ImpactSnd:                     85                                      ;; The sound it makes when it hits something
$Flags:                         ()
$Icon:                          icongun05
$Anim:                          LoadGun07
$Impact Explosion: none

no difference with exception to the half a second fire recharge rate compared to the quarter of a second.

[Snail]

That's still an extremely large difference. Try hitting something with it.

[Colonol Dekker]

Subach = 2nd best after Kayser

[Al Tarket]

i did snail, it's a good weapon once you get around the fact it has a far more slower rate of fire then the subach.

[Snail]

The Shivan's weaponry is weak because their Heavy Lasers are weaker than the lowest-grade GTVA weapon.

[Mars]

Half the fire rate = half the firepower in this case, since they do identical damage.

[Snail]

It's probably worse than half the $Damage: value because of the AI's inability to aim properly.

[Droid803]

As I've said before, would you like to face Shivans armed with weapons superior to Kaysers like they supposedly are?

[Jeff Vader]

At least it would be challenging.

[Snail]

As I've said before, would you like to face Shivans armed with weapons superior to Kaysers like they supposedly are?

No, but less useless weapons. The NTF had Subachs and Prometheus R lasers, and were a much bigger threat dogfighting-wise than the Shivans. But weaponry better than the Kayser is kind of overkill and a formula for frustration...

[Iranon]

Why not ask that the Shivans bolt on some armour plates while we're at it? Or that Vasudans start installing some decent shields?

Weapon compatibility matters; otherwise we'll end up discussing an Osiris with BFReds in its turrets. I have no problem accepting that Shivan fighter weaponry is inferior (what I find harder to accept is that they use the same secondaries as the GTVA...).

The tech room description of the Kayser doesn't negate that to me; just because their technology is less effective doesn't mean it's less sophisticated, or that we can't learn something from it.

[Mars]

The Shivan lasers are actually approximately as effective as the prometheus R

[Droid803]

The tech room description of the Kayser doesn't negate that to me; just because their technology is less effective doesn't mean it's less sophisticated, or that we can't learn something from it.

Well, its strange.
Why would you try to copy some advanced-yet-****ty tech when your own already surpasses theirs in effectiveness?