Hard Light Productions Forums

Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => Blue Planet => Topic started by: Darius on August 07, 2010, 07:11:13 am

Title: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on August 07, 2010, 07:11:13 am
This is the first half of War in Heaven. We are tremendously grateful to all of you for your help, support, and advice. We hope that you enjoy this campaign as much as we have enjoyed the creative process. This really has been a labour of love. We owe special thanks to our fellow modders and to the Source Code Project and FreeSpace Upgrade Project teams for their patience and generosity.

Players should be aware that many of the assets in War in Heaven need another coat of polish; many of the ships in the campaign lack proper LODs, debris and texture optimization. Expect reduced performance. We would like to ask for the community's help in optimizing these models. If you would like to help us out, please send a private message to Esarai (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?action=profile;u=6586).

As always, my utmost thanks to the team for being a pleasure to work with, and my apologies to everyone else for the delay in getting this out :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: m!m on August 07, 2010, 07:15:06 am
Thank you for the release and I'm sure the waiting was worth it  :yes: :yes:

Now I just have to get a joystick to play this... :warp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 07, 2010, 07:22:35 am
I need the latest MVPs to play it, right?

Downloading now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: carbine7 on August 07, 2010, 07:28:44 am
Despite the fact that it's currently 5 in the morning.....

DOWNLOADING!
Oops, forgot, my joystick is broken. Well, guess I know what I'm doing first thing in the morning....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlackDove on August 07, 2010, 07:41:20 am
Congratulations on this release! :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: carbine7 on August 07, 2010, 07:43:05 am
You know what? Screw it, I'm playing with the broken joystick! I can wait another couple hours to fix it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 07, 2010, 07:44:02 am
First Half?



I'm gonna wait til part 2 is out then play it all in one go :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 07, 2010, 07:46:00 am
Your loss  :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 07, 2010, 07:46:36 am
For real-time discussion you can hop on to BP's irc channel (http://irc://irc.esper.net/bp). Also, here's Mibbit link (http://widget.mibbit.com/?settings=b73fe961ed217d9a3cbd9637dc7ba9bf&server=irc.esper.net&channel=%bp&noServerTab=false) for using irc in your web browser.

Edit: Damned forums always put http in front of the first irc link, it's supposed to be irc://irc.esper.net/bp
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 07, 2010, 07:51:38 am
Your loss  :D

Honestly, it's too much to get in one day at home. So i'll wait til i get to work and save it to my 64GB stick.

edit- patches and re-downloads, MVPS and the like. I'm busy all weekend so work will suffer my skiving on monday rather than my admin today :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 07, 2010, 08:33:19 am
All these releases are seriously impeding my editing progress on TopAce's campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 07, 2010, 09:36:40 am
On this day at this defining moment something happened.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 10:31:08 am
hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrngh so nervous

All I can think about is stuff we could have done to improve things further. Worryworryworryworry.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 07, 2010, 10:34:20 am
You can always add them to future patches... :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 10:34:58 am
They always tell me, 'Save it for the Director's Cut!'

I'm just an anxious mother.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: [Wolf]Maverick on August 07, 2010, 10:40:04 am
I have to say, truely epic...
the whole team did a wonderful job, for me the best Freespace2 Mod so far.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 07, 2010, 10:45:35 am
the whole team did a wonderful job, for me the best Freespace2 Mod so far.
I agree
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 10:46:35 am
hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrngh so nervous

All I can think about is stuff we could have done to improve things further. Worryworryworryworry.
you'll get feedback once people go through it. if its anything like AoA, everyone will be pleased, if not, it can go either up or down.


also curse you for not making a unified download. i always hated these chipped up dl's that seem so popular to people.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 07, 2010, 10:47:34 am
the whole team did a wonderful job, for me the best Freespace2 Mod so far.
I agree

I look forward to agreeing in a week or two.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 10:48:07 am
hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrngh so nervous

All I can think about is stuff we could have done to improve things further. Worryworryworryworry.
you'll get feedback once people go through it. if its anything like AoA, everyone will be pleased, if not, it can go either up or down.


also curse you for not making a unified download. i always hated these chipped up dl's that seem so popular to people.

Unifieds are coming, but as the recent patch shows there's advantages to splitting it up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 10:48:50 am
hrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrngh so nervous

All I can think about is stuff we could have done to improve things further. Worryworryworryworry.
you'll get feedback once people go through it. if its anything like AoA, everyone will be pleased, if not, it can go either up or down.


also curse you for not making a unified download. i always hated these chipped up dl's that seem so popular to people.

Unifieds are coming, but as the recent patch shows there's advantages to splitting it up.
Like what? Patching all up when update time nears?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 10:49:42 am
Here's my genuine review of the campaign  :nervous:

Spoiler:
Too much text! We did everything we could to make it flow well, including dialogue skips and checkpoints, but ultimately this campaign is written as if it's voice acted and it's not. Flow may be damaged by the probable need to either constantly check the message box or to go back and look through logs after combat.

This campaign really needs some voice acting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 10:57:28 am
Here's my genuine review of the campaign  :nervous:

Spoiler:
Too much text! We did everything we could to make it flow well, including dialogue skips and checkpoints, but ultimately this campaign is written as if it's voice acted and it's not. Flow may be damaged by the probable need to either constantly check the message box or to go back and look through logs after combat.

This campaign really needs some voice acting.
Spoiler:
dammit. :p

i had hoped the awesome voiceacting from AoA would be back.



may i offer my services for VA then? :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 07, 2010, 10:57:57 am
Here's my genuine review of the campaign  :nervous:

Spoiler:
Too much text! We did everything we could to make it flow well, including dialogue skips and checkpoints, but ultimately this campaign is written as if it's voice acted and it's not. Flow may be damaged by the probable need to either constantly check the message box or to go back and look through logs after combat.

This campaign really needs some voice acting.

Don't tell me TTS doesn't work.... =\
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 07, 2010, 10:59:09 am
Review: This is a good campaign. Play it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 11:02:14 am
Here's my genuine review of the campaign  :nervous:

Spoiler:
Too much text! We did everything we could to make it flow well, including dialogue skips and checkpoints, but ultimately this campaign is written as if it's voice acted and it's not. Flow may be damaged by the probable need to either constantly check the message box or to go back and look through logs after combat.

This campaign really needs some voice acting.

Don't tell me TTS doesn't work.... =\

Mixed bag. We did last-minute crash debugging on TTS. It'll work on all messages from fighters. Unfortunately it will ignore messages from capships and any messages using special alarm sounds ironically designed to grab player attention during battle.

We're working on a code-side fix for this problem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 07, 2010, 11:13:34 am
I volunteer for a TEV CAP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 07, 2010, 11:15:01 am
YEEEEAAAAH!

I hope that in general, people agree that this campaign is good enough to merit spam posts such as this one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firartix on August 07, 2010, 11:22:13 am
Yohey. I recall downloading something like blueplanet-3612 not that far ago, which was a version of AoA director's cut including as well stuff like gliding and improved AI. It was however requiring a non-stable .12 build (that was several months ago).
Will that version still work with the new AoA (i'm redownloading it atm) ? And will it work with WiH too ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 11:23:10 am
Yohey. I recall downloading something like blueplanet-3612 not that far ago, which was a version of AoA director's cut including as well stuff like gliding and improved AI. It was however requiring a non-stable .12 build (that was several months ago).
Will that version still work with the new AoA (i'm redownloading it atm) ? And will it work with WiH too ?

Please see the instructions in the AoA release topic (which basically say 'delete it, it don't work no more'.)

Make sure you have the AoA patch released yesterday.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 07, 2010, 11:26:13 am
Yohey. I recall downloading something like blueplanet-3612 not that far ago, which was a version of AoA director's cut including as well stuff like gliding and improved AI. It was however requiring a non-stable .12 build (that was several months ago).
Will that version still work with the new AoA (i'm redownloading it atm) ? And will it work with WiH too ?
Please refer to the actual release topic of the 3.6.12 Feature Pack.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68214.msg1399077#msg1399077

In short, it is unsupported, won't work with WiH and you should delete it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firartix on August 07, 2010, 11:27:51 am
myeah i'm idiot, i noticed the other post right after sending that one message ._.
Thanks anyway. I'll install it and come back to comment/whine once i get it to work D:
Question by the way, are the AI/Balance/Glide features from the Feature Pack included in another form into the new AoA or WiH ? I recall playing with gliding AI was quite fun o.o

Maybe i should stop finishing every sentence with a smiley, by the way  :blah:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 07, 2010, 11:31:53 am
For AoA there won't be officially supported method to enable advanced AI, in WiH it is used everywhere. Glide is not used in WiH. And no, there will not be anything like 3.6.12 Feature Pack coming for WiH. Not from me at the very least.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 11:35:58 am
It could be fun to build a version of the glide feature pack extended to WiH, but it's not a team priority at the moment.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 07, 2010, 11:38:47 am
That's so piss easy to do that it's not even funny. But I don't really want to, those optional downloads always cause trouble later down in the road. Right now I wish I hadn't done the Feature Pack for AoA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starbug on August 07, 2010, 11:40:16 am
Downloaded it,  and wow this is amazing, i love the intro, nice use of freedom fighters track. Ships, effects are brillant!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sigtau on August 07, 2010, 12:13:00 pm
Downloading now.

i love the intro, nice use of freedom fighters track. Ships, effects are brillant!

SPOILERS LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 07, 2010, 12:15:06 pm
YES! ****ING HELL YES! OH MY GOD WOOT!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ransom on August 07, 2010, 12:16:00 pm
Well, hello there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 07, 2010, 12:29:20 pm
Does War in Heaven have cockpit view ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 12:39:00 pm
Does War in Heaven have cockpit view ?

Not by default. You could enable it with a simple .tbm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 07, 2010, 12:40:17 pm
Does War in Heaven have cockpit view ?

Not by default. You could enable it with a simple .tbm.

Does that mean, you have high poly version of Cockpit view or the default one ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 07, 2010, 12:44:24 pm
All of the player-flyable ships have high-resolution cockpits by default. But, as Battuta said, you need to enable this via tbm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: shiv on August 07, 2010, 01:55:08 pm
Yay! Awesomness! Downloading now! ;7
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on August 07, 2010, 01:59:37 pm
Whoa it's out!?! Well, I know what i'm doing today...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 07, 2010, 02:02:48 pm
So stoked that the window to start the download doesn't even show up.
I thought 256k was faster than 64k, guess I was wrong, **** these Iraqi ISPs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 07, 2010, 02:05:25 pm
I'm getting an error about the sound.tbls.

Code: [Select]
sounds.tbl(line 342:
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF: 1 T_flyby2.wav, 0, 0.75, ]  instead.

kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>

Is this a problem with my FS2 Open install (the <no symbol> thing), or some part of my BP install?  I'm redownloading my bp2-audio1 file just in case.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 07, 2010, 02:14:08 pm
Please read the release post carefully, and make sure that you follow every item on the checklist.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 07, 2010, 02:29:31 pm
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT DLing :D :D :D :D :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 07, 2010, 02:31:05 pm
Found it!  Turns out my mediavps_3612 directory had an extra folder in it, making it "mediavps_3612 -> mediavps_3612 -> files" which doesn't work too well.  My fault for not checking after I unzipped stuff.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 07, 2010, 03:00:51 pm
1.  Intro was outstanding.
2.  use of music in missions is phenomenal
3.  How the hell do these checkpoints work?  I failed a secondary objective and I was hoping I wouldn't have to start the mission from the beginning...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 07, 2010, 03:19:47 pm
Checkpoints are generally set after some significant event in the mission. They're also not present in every mission (they require player-persistant variables, of which there are only 100, and at the moment we're using 93). In general, they're set up so that if you have unlocked one, you can be sure that you can continue the campaign when reloading from the checkpoint.

To activate one that you have unlocked, you need to open the comm menu at the beginning of the mission, and select the checkpoint from the reinforcements menu.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: aceraptor on August 07, 2010, 03:21:11 pm
I got a problem... I followed all the steps to the letter, the game started good, the movie went great, then it got to the next part, a journal entree?

And I got this

Could not load in FictionViewer-m!
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 49 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>

I press ok and it goes to the entree then I cant advance any further. I try to click the button to proceed but no luck.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 07, 2010, 03:21:55 pm
Read the release post. Make sure you follow all items on the checklist. This error probably means that you do not have the new mediavps installed correctly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FelixJim on August 07, 2010, 03:46:38 pm
player-persistant variables, of which there are only 100
Off topic: What. Really? I might have to rethink an idea or two...unless this is being addressed by the new pilot code? </wishing>
On topic: Yay! Oh, hang on. I really need to get around to installing a larger hard drive, what with this and the new mediavps. Will be DLing when that's done though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 07, 2010, 04:02:53 pm
All of the player-flyable ships have high-resolution cockpits by default. But, as Battuta said, you need to enable this via tbm.

High Res, you said ? :p

(http://tof.canardpc.com/preview2/752d8685-219e-4bd1-af91-1f213e6fa3b2.jpg) (http://tof.canardpc.com/view/752d8685-219e-4bd1-af91-1f213e6fa3b2.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 04:06:24 pm
Cockpits are whatever is present on the model. BP by and large uses only public assets, we try to optimize and improve stuff but we have never really added new stuff like cockpits.

If someone wants to model cockpits for those ships it'd be awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 04:09:07 pm
1.  Intro was outstanding.
2.  use of music in missions is phenomenal
3.  How the hell do these checkpoints work?  I failed a secondary objective and I was hoping I wouldn't have to start the mission from the beginning...

You will be notified every time you unlock a checkpoint and upon mission start if you have a checkpoint available in the mission.

It appears that notification for the m01 checkpoint is broken. I am fixing.

UPDATE: Checkpoint notification for m01 was broken because an event accidentally became chained due to a certain clumsy bat mis-clicking prior to release. The fix is now in, but it'll have to wait for the first patch. In the meantime, m01 checkpoint can be activated after it is unlocked by going to the reinforcements menu in the first 15 seconds of the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 07, 2010, 04:20:48 pm
I got a problem... I followed all the steps to the letter, the game started good, the movie went great, then it got to the next part, a journal entree?

And I got this

Could not load in FictionViewer-m!
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 49 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>

I press ok and it goes to the entree then I cant advance any further. I try to click the button to proceed but no luck.

Make sure all the mediavp files are actually in the first mediavps folder (the one in the freespace main directory) and not in a second mediavps folder in the first one.  That's where I was getting my problem, at least. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 07, 2010, 04:23:52 pm
For those who are interested about Cockpit View, just grab the attach file.



[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 04:28:25 pm
For those who are interested about Cockpit View, just grab the attach file.

Awesome, thanks. I'll have the team take a look at this and include it as an option in the release post.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 04:52:12 pm
GOD ****ING DAMNIT!



Spoiler:
I'm at the Saturn mission and FSO LOCKS UP ON ME! RIGHT IN THE MOST FRIGGIN EPIC MOMENT OF THE FRIGGIN CAMPAIGN SO FAR!!!! GOD ****ING DAMNIT!


*sighs*


need a breather.


All in all Epic campaign is Epic and, if i may be so bold, the BP team raised the bar for excellence even higher. Stop doing that or the other mod teams will have trouble catching up :D


VERY HAPPY with what i've seen sofar, i'm waiting to finish the game before taking a crack at reading all thats in the tech room tho.



also, WHERE the hell are the initial GTVA deserters? Surely they brought in a lot of firepower, and thats what Byrne is counting on i guess. He's still a huge dick. that engagement when the Imperioussomethingsomething (convoluted name for me to spell :P ) needs even MOAR DAKKA then is present at the moment.


My crash has nothing to do with anything either team did (MVP and BP), its just one of those "play for five hours or more, then crash and burn sucka" things that have been around since i first started using SCP (bout 5 years ago)

stopping now to let my head cool off a bit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 04:56:21 pm
Yay!
/me hugs pecenipicek

Tell us immediately if the lockup recurs. I pray it's not a PPV issue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 05:01:18 pm
Yay!
/me hugs pecenipicek

Tell us immediately if the lockup recurs. I pray it's not a PPV issue.
its not, as i've said, the lockup is one of the longerstanding things that have never been quite put a finger on, aka "I've noticed it happen with every build with every mod after extensive gameplay" meaning, i've been seeing it for the last 5 years since i'm using FSO and on average i get 4-6 hours of stability with FSO and the lockup almost always happens when something gets blown up. i seriously doubt its anything that can be covered with a simple bug-report and i think it would take a loooot of tracking down to get it, and then again, i'm one of the rare ****ers who can actually stand playing for more than 2-3 hours at a time.


[edit]also, there's one problem with the mainhall, when opening it, nothing lights up when i mouse-over it. (the continue, barracks, tech room, etc etc)


thats the one glaringly obvious thing that hit me, but no biggie since everything afterwards was worth it :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on August 07, 2010, 05:03:01 pm
Not reading the thread in case of spoils. Just want to say, I'm two missions in and already loving it. The writing is gold.

Quote
[15:09] <redsniper> omg
[15:10] <redsniper> they've done something right with WiH
[15:11] <redsniper> found myself swearing under my breath when a freighter I was escorting got blown up
[15:11] <redsniper> not because I failed, but just... because
[15:15] <@The_E> redsniper: Awesome
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 07, 2010, 05:04:08 pm
I haven't played through the whole thing yet, but so far this is pure win. Really brings new dimensions to Freespace combat.

The story is good too. I love a game with a good plot, so this mod is pretty much a dream come true. The fact that you can choose dialogue options also helps improve the immersion very well. The one thing that would make this absolutely golden is voice acting, but I assume that's coming later.

Also may I just say that
Spoiler:
Kitten Picture

was the funniest damn thing ever. :wakka:
I was laughing for a good five minutes after that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 05:04:37 pm
Not reading the thread in case of spoils. Just want to say, I'm two missions in and already loving it. The writing is gold.

Quote
[15:09] <redsniper> omg
[15:10] <redsniper> they've done something right with WiH
[15:11] <redsniper> found myself swearing under my breath when a freighter I was escorting got blown up
[15:11] <redsniper> not because I failed, but just... because
[15:15] <@The_E> redsniper: Awesome
You my dear friend havent seen **** yet. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IronBeer on August 07, 2010, 05:15:19 pm
Just began download.

There is no way WiH can be anything but epic. I know where my evening is going. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 07, 2010, 05:19:32 pm
Safe to say it's been five hours now and I still can't get visual1 to download. :doubt: Only got core so far.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 05:19:43 pm
Just began download.

There is no way WiH can be anything but epic. I know where my evening is going. 
more like where the night is going :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 05:20:48 pm
Safe to say it's been five hours now and I still can't get visual1 to download. :doubt: Only got core so far.

 :(

DVD?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 07, 2010, 05:38:08 pm
That would be awesome.
Hell I'd even pay for it. :D
I will win this war my connection started...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 07, 2010, 05:38:26 pm
Spoiler:
Am I just an idiot who can't press the right button, or is there an easier way to sort out the text on those cargo crates in the nebula than targetting next uninspected cargo, writing the lines down and deciphering it on paper OR opening up FRED?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on August 07, 2010, 05:39:13 pm
Press T.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 05:44:22 pm
Betrayal are you stuck on m08?  :nervous:

Also I think someone on freespace.pl is missing the AoA patch or doesn't have the mediavps in mediavps_3612.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 07, 2010, 06:08:54 pm
Bug/Problem:  In the mission with the freighter where you choose a tactic, the screen messages do not reflect rebound keys.  I had to reset to defaults and undo just to figure out what the heck I was actually supposed to push.  Granted, it's been something like two years since I opened FRED but I distinctly recall a function that let you bind to an action rather than a specific keypress.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 06:09:48 pm
Bug/Problem:  In the mission with the freighter where you choose a tactic, the screen messages do not reflect rebound keys.  I had to reset to defaults and undo just to figure out what the heck I was actually supposed to push.  Granted, it's been something like two years since I opened FRED but I distinctly recall a function that let you bind to an action rather than a specific keypress.

That function is in place in the mission. If it's not working there may be a bug at play.

EDIT: ...or not? Fixed in SVN. Sorry about that, and if you see any more post it up ASAP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 07, 2010, 06:17:32 pm
Bug/Problem:  In the mission with the freighter where you choose a tactic, the screen messages do not reflect rebound keys.  I had to reset to defaults and undo just to figure out what the heck I was actually supposed to push.  Granted, it's been something like two years since I opened FRED but I distinctly recall a function that let you bind to an action rather than a specific keypress.

That function is in place in the mission. If it's not working there may be a bug at play.

EDIT: ...or not? Fixed in SVN. Sorry about that, and if you see any more post it up ASAP.

Every mission that tells me to warp out has ALT-J coming up, when mine is set to Enter.  Similar problem for the dialog-skipping function too.  I'm blowing the dust off dear old FRED as we speak.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 06:18:56 pm
Bug/Problem:  In the mission with the freighter where you choose a tactic, the screen messages do not reflect rebound keys.  I had to reset to defaults and undo just to figure out what the heck I was actually supposed to push.  Granted, it's been something like two years since I opened FRED but I distinctly recall a function that let you bind to an action rather than a specific keypress.

That function is in place in the mission. If it's not working there may be a bug at play.

EDIT: ...or not? Fixed in SVN. Sorry about that, and if you see any more post it up ASAP.

Every mission that tells me to warp out has ALT-J coming up, when mine is set to Enter.  Similar problem for the dialog-skipping function too.  I'm blowing the dust off dear old FRED as we speak.

We don't have enough dolla signs. It'll get fixed in SVN, don't worry about it. Guess we didn't have testers with exotic enough key layouts.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 07, 2010, 06:34:49 pm
Spoiler:
I really liked the campaign where you fly a frigate around. However, I just set all 3 systems to lock and flew around killing corvettes as they showed up. I didn't notice much, maybe because I couldn't actually tell what mass drivers, torpedoes, and gauss cannons were supposed to look like. It seemed all my prettier munitions were the point defense auto target stuff. Oh, and I spent a good 5 play thrus before I figured out that I was supposed to STALL for time, not kill stuff ASAP. Yeah, it was a long week for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 07, 2010, 06:35:36 pm
 :P

Cockpit view with Track IR in action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeiURveWy60).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 07, 2010, 06:37:59 pm
Metaldestroyer: I'm sorry, but that tbm of yours will NOT be part of BP2. As you can see, you are losing the message senders, which is absolutely unacceptable for us. There's a code bug at work here which we'll have to track down and fix.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 07, 2010, 06:41:56 pm
I've just notice it :) That's fine if you don't include the tbm. However, what does happen if you use the 3.6.13 build ? the one for the new HUD Code ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 06:42:33 pm
I've just notice it :) That's fine if you don't include the tbm. However, what does happen if you use the 3.6.13 build ? the one for the new HUD Code ?

It looks awesome though. I love your FOV. Everything looks huge.

Shame about the bug, but otherwise great work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 07, 2010, 06:49:44 pm
I'm a fair bit through the campaign, and I absolutely love it.  The expansive, exquisitely detailed setting and the brilliant writing and dialogue combine to elevate this from merely campaign to cinematic experience of epic proportions.  While the dialogue itself can be cluttered sometimes in mid-dogfight (which is as far as I can tell completely unavoidable without fundamentally changing the structure of several missions), most of it is easily understood.  At several points in mid-mission, specifically during the interactive conversations, I actually feel like a pilot caught up in the wheels of interstellar machinations, forced to watch as the void burns, fire and death but a moment away.

Congratulations, BP team, on a masterpiece of storytelling.

Spoiler:
And I lol'd hard at the kitten picture. :lol:

I wonder who else took the time to scan all the cargo units in the "nebula."  Targetting them in order yields a very interesting piece of information.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 07, 2010, 07:03:50 pm
I don't post here often at all, but I felt I really needed to. The least expected thing happened, a space shooter made me sobby, or atleast gave me a runny nose and a trembling lip! This isn't just a campaign, this is an interactive novel and the best interactive novel I have ever played.

Spoiler:
The ending really was sad but very deep. I hope that Simms pulls through, but I got this gut feeling that she may not be as lucky and serves as a catalyst for Laporte's apparant transformation. I'm guessing she is a counterbalance for Bei. The hints at a romance or otherwise deep bond between the two really added a lot to the experience, allowing for the Laporte character to become immersive for the player along with the struggle between following her moral instinct and her emotional instinct. Atleast, at some point I started to really get into the character. I'm guessins Laporte's love for Simms comes from the comfort of having guidance: someone to keep her on a straight path and to keep her moral views from turning blurry with bloodlust. In difficult times that can be more than enough to love someone, without needing butterflies or schoolgirly giggles. Without Simms support, well, I dare not imagine what an abyss Laporte would tumble into...

Really, really great work. You really made my day. Looking forward to the next part!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 07, 2010, 07:16:46 pm
Thank you for those kind words. It's the kind of reaction we hoped for, and we're glad to see that it "clicked" in that way for at least a few people out there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on August 07, 2010, 07:17:15 pm
Betrayal are you stuck on m08?  :nervous:

Also I think someone on freespace.pl is missing the AoA patch or doesn't have the mediavps in mediavps_3612.
No matther what I will do, I always fail. Can someone explain me, how to notch that?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 07:20:57 pm
Betrayal are you stuck on m08?  :nervous:

Also I think someone on freespace.pl is missing the AoA patch or doesn't have the mediavps in mediavps_3612.
No matther what I will do, I always fail. Can someone explain me, how to notch that?

Spoiler:
Are we talking fail the dialogue, or the dogfight afterwards?

If it's the dogfight, just take the cheap tactic and run away until the gunships arrive. You can survive the dogfight by just evading a lot if you prefer to stay and fight.

If the conversation, go back and read the last briefing stage, and then try to apply that. If it's not working for you, let me know and I'll give a better hint. Sorry it's frustrating.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dr. Pwnguin on August 07, 2010, 07:27:57 pm
Absolutely brilliant work!

Spoiler:
Kittens!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 07, 2010, 07:35:10 pm
Spoiler:
Battuta, and the whole of BP team, GO TO HELL!!!




Now that thats out of the way i immensely enjoyed the whole campaign, the crash didnt repeat itself, all in all a nice smooth ride altogether :D

I always hated cliffhangers, and if our dear Noemi is something to make the younger Bei scared a bit... i am afraid what will happen to the GTA. (at this point its only the GTA engaging from what i've gathered and Vasudans still arent 100% sure about the whole deal with Gef's and all...)


Also, on the overall front, the whole campaign needs a lot moar dakka and voiceacting. Apart from that, the gunships are bloody awesome :D

To anyone reading this thread, you need to ****ing play this. End of Line.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellstryker on August 07, 2010, 07:36:07 pm
Hell yeah. How many missions is it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: [Wolf]Maverick on August 07, 2010, 07:37:19 pm
Hi, is it possible that you could release the awesome soundtrack as mp3s?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 07, 2010, 07:40:17 pm
Spoiler:
Kittens!

It's an Orwellian mind-control device! I don't care if they tried to make it otherwise!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 07:41:58 pm
Hi, is it possible that you could release the awesome soundtrack as mp3s?

*sigh* That's thorny moral territory. We can release the stuff we have IP rights of one kind or another to. Other stuff you can extract from the VPs with VPview, or we can provide YouTube links, but distributing them in the campaign is already sketchy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 07, 2010, 07:49:55 pm
Just finished. Holy crap epic. That's all I can say.

To anyone who has not played this yet: DL AND PLAY NOW! :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on August 07, 2010, 07:53:47 pm
Looking forward to downloading this at uni tomorrow - I'd do it now but I'm almost at my download limit and downloading both this and the new MediaVPs would certainly put me over the limit. :sigh:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shiva1994 on August 07, 2010, 08:04:56 pm
I have been waiting for this campaign since ages and all that waiting paid off. After finishing it, all I can say is that it's simply frakkin' awesome. In my opinion, this is the breakthrough in the storytelling and sets the requirements high for the next mods to come. I completely agree with Sara on this matter.

Thank you, excellent work.

Spoiler:

That was sad ending... and damn cliffhangers... Can't wait what happens next after such heavy loses by the UEF.

Btw. Kittens rule!  ;)

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 08:09:59 pm
I have been waiting for this campaign since ages and all that waiting paid off. After finishing it, all I can say is that it's simply frakkin' awesome. In my opinion, this is the breakthrough in the storytelling and sets the requirements high for the next mods to come. I completely agree with Sara on this matter.

Thank you, excellent work.

Spoiler:

That was sad ending... and damn cliffhangers... Can't wait what happens next after such heavy loses by the UEF.

Btw. Kittens rule!  ;)


*sniff sniff*

You guys make it all worth it.
/me cries and hugs everyone
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 07, 2010, 08:11:21 pm
Hi, is it possible that you could release the awesome soundtrack as mp3s?

*sigh* That's thorny moral territory. We can release the stuff we have IP rights of one kind or another to. Other stuff you can extract from the VPs with VPview, or we can provide YouTube links, but distributing them in the campaign is already sketchy.

I'll say it must be.

However, the soundtracking is excellent, only played the first few missions though. But, when Vortal Combat started playing in the first level, I just knew this was going to be something special.

And, overall, and so far, my impression is one of an utterly professional work. This is amazing. Voice Acting when it comes will elevate this to the ranks of godhood.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 07, 2010, 08:55:16 pm
Spoiler:
NOOOO! YOU BASTARDS KILLED EVERYBODY EVER! WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*Ahem*OH MY GOD, THIS IS THE GREATEST MOD I'VE EVER PLAYED IN MY LIFE!!!!
The characters were deep, the music only added to the story, the cliffhanger was ****ING EVIL AND I HATE YOU ALL and the missions forced me to change my entire playstyle from "gung-ho own everything" to "Be a little careful!" The ownage of Earth was especially tragic. However, I do have a major complaint that needs to be addressed below!

VVVVVVVVVVVVVVVV The below REQUIRES a response
Spoiler:
Now, I can't accept how you try to paint the character as a "wronged but good person" by having her put "Dear Diary - Today I strangled a puppy with my bare hands, and I liked it! What kind of monster am I?" and then go out and butcher a bunch of Tevs in each mission. That doesn't fly with me.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The above REQURES a response


Spoiler:
Where did Bei go off to, I wonder? I wouldn't be surprised if Bei Sr. is leading the Fedayeen himself!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 07, 2010, 08:57:53 pm
I'm leaning towards saying that WiH is a fair bit better than either FS retail campaigns. Who's with me?

(except it's not voice acted yet, but that will come for sure. Heck, I don't see why anybody WOULDN'T want to be credited in this amazing mod. I would, but I lack good recording equipment)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 07, 2010, 09:00:57 pm
Spoiler:
Where did Bei go off to, I wonder? I wouldn't be surprised if Bei Sr. is leading the Fedayeen himself!
Spoiler:
Have you watched the end cutscene?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 07, 2010, 09:12:58 pm
Spoiler:
Have you watched the end cutscene?

Yes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Backslash on August 07, 2010, 09:18:37 pm
For those who are interested about Cockpit View, just grab the attach file.
Metaldestroyer: I'm sorry, but that tbm of yours will NOT be part of BP2. As you can see, you are losing the message senders, which is absolutely unacceptable for us. There's a code bug at work here which we'll have to track down and fix.
Aha!  Turns out the table needs a +noreplace right after each $Flags: line.  Otherwise (as far as I understand it) the "show ship" becomes the only flag, replacing everything including "fighter" and "player_ship".  All sorts of wonky behavior ensues.

So here's a fixed (afaik) attachment:

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dr. Pwnguin on August 07, 2010, 10:10:35 pm
Heh, I also realized my laptop does not have the ability to withstand the awesomeness of epic ship clashes...

Until I switch to high-performance and put a fan nearby! Genius!

Spoiler:
Was I the only one that killed the hostage?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thorbin on August 07, 2010, 10:14:57 pm
I am getting the following error messages when I try to play WiH part 1. The intro cutscene plays okay, but the error messages pop up when I get to the first briefing:

First this one:

Could not load in 2_CommandBrief-mb!
ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>


followed by this one:

Verify failure: Vbuf0 != NULL

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>


I did follow the installation instructions to the letter, and I do have an SSE2 processor.

I will report these error messages on the SCP area.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 07, 2010, 10:24:59 pm
I am getting the following error messages when I try to play WiH part 1. The intro cutscene plays okay, but the error messages pop up when I get to the first briefing:

First this one:

Could not load in 2_CommandBrief-mb!
ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>


followed by this one:

Verify failure: Vbuf0 != NULL

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_SSE2.exe! <no symbol>


I did follow the installation instructions to the letter, and I do have an SSE2 processor.

I will report these error messages on the SCP area.

Probably no need to report - this should be a really easy fix.

Just run a debug build (ends in -d) by selecting it in the launcher and launching Blue Planet, then play up to the moment of the crash, then go into your /FreeSpace2/data/ directory and post your fs2_open.log.

After that we can fix your install.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thorbin on August 07, 2010, 10:31:11 pm
Here is my fs2_open.log output:


Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
Building file index...
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x2fa0cebd
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x2a530d55
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x2851edb0
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x1541da12
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe2219ccf
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7e75407b
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW1_Animaps.vp' with a checksum of 0x31613271
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW1_Normals.vp' with a checksum of 0x09e4b581
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW_Interface.vp' with a checksum of 0xd912cb06
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW_Intro.vp' with a checksum of 0xd8d071b9
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet1.vp' with a checksum of 0xdb02c05b
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\StormFront12_root.vp' with a checksum of 0x541cef16
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 68 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-core.vp' ... 2 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 403 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\' ... 357 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW1_Animaps.vp' ... 237 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW1_Normals.vp' ... 28 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW_Interface.vp' ... 982 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\ASW_Intro.vp' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet1.vp' ... ERROR: ERANGE: String error. Please Report.
Trying to put into 32 byte buffer:
ÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌÌ.
File: cfilesystem.cpp
Line: 719


Hmm. I just noticed a 'blueplanet1.vp'. An old file, perhaps?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 07, 2010, 10:35:24 pm
Whoa whoa whoa dude.

Are those mods you have not in their own folders?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 07, 2010, 10:35:44 pm
Do I hear the Dune soundtrack in the last few missions? :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: basnyy213 on August 07, 2010, 10:37:32 pm
thanks darius, guess i'm not sleeping tonight :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mongoose on August 07, 2010, 10:45:15 pm
Dammit, I'm gonna be in Pittsburgh for all of this week, and I'll have this sitting at home on my HD utterly tantalizing me.  Part of me feels like pulling off some ridiculous marathon of it before I leave...except I can't, since I want to replay AoA first.  Do want do want do waaaaaaaannnt. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 07, 2010, 10:52:26 pm
Spoiler:
:eek2: I will never look at psychologists the same way ever again, ever.  :shaking: Who knows how many of them can secretly be Vishnans in disguise!?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thorbin on August 07, 2010, 11:08:24 pm
Whoa whoa whoa dude.

Are those mods you have not in their own folders?
It would appear so. These are likely from a mod I installed over a year ago (I have had this FS2 installation on my PC a while). I have removed the 5 mod related VPs from my Freespace 2 root folder, and will try again. I will post the results later.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: asyikarea51 on August 07, 2010, 11:36:08 pm
My turn I guess. Three words:

Good... with merit. (Snail please shut up. Yes you're hyped with good reason, but it really pissed me the f*** off when you went high yesterday. Sorry. No I'm fine now really. :) :nervous:)

Was this what I was looking for? Don't know. Enough parts of the plot I detest. But I think you (whoever you is) came really close. :D :yes: :nervous:
Not like I've done anything useful as of late but if really did FRED what's in my head, maybe I might've emphasised the idea that
Spoiler:
everyone's evil
too.

Or maybe not... meh, I myself don't even know how I'd FRED it... :nervous:

With that out of the way...

--------------------------------------- tech stuff

1. This campaign needs voice acting not because it's awesome or any of the hype that some :nervous: people have been going round doing - it needs VA because there's SO MANY DAMN LINES that it's IMPOSSIBLE to play without going back to the Events window. Heck, with all that chatter it was obvious that the mission dudes had the voices in their head and FREDded away. And I think one or two sentences had the timing off, haven't seen things in FRED yet but I expect lots of sexp chaos that even I can't work heads or tails around, so I really cannot blame you people for that once-in-a-while slipup. I think it was only one line that had the timing off anyway.

Unfortunately by the end of the campaign I practically forgot who was even who. (lol wtf grammar? but can't think of a way to drive the point home XD) Apologies if this sounds offensive, but the only thing I caught on at credits point was some possible
Spoiler:
ecchi girl's love stuff.
At least now I understand why some people said things related to that in those infrequent forum posts and IRC chats during testing...

2. Major battles lagged HARD and the long combat distances weren't helping. The worst was texture corruption with the subspace warp everytime something jumped in or departed. Some of the battles were so damn intense that I simply sat there with a blank stare not shooting or even moving, unless something was shooting at me already. I cheapened out playing Very Easy because I couldn't be bothered to get my arse kicked while trying to get around the plot. Play on something harder and I guarantee things would be dying left and right enough to make me go berserk with the cheat codes rage-killing till the sequences broke.

Even the credits lagged REAL HARD!! I was all "screw the timing of the music, the event needs to finish first."

3. Even with mostly clear-cut instructions some things weren't obvious at first glance, such as the
Spoiler:
Striker packs lol I sound so Gundam SEED.
I didn't even know the Reinforcements menu was being used. Probably fits the battle tension though, "here I'm gonna teach you something in 0.9 seconds now hurry and press buttons" etc...

4. Button sequences. This one I won't blame, it's probably just limitations of the engine. I couldn't select some options because my control scheme is different (no multi messaging for one). I didn't realise this until I got to the
Spoiler:
superfast fighter training mission
and IIRC there was one decision tree before it... and I don't remember what the hell I chose.

5. Existing assets make me go all :doubt: when talking about "fancy big mods" like this one, this is one problem AoA has, but WiH tries to hide. I can see the effort in trying to make everything look uniform despite severe asset limitations (something which I try to do as well when I drown myself in random table edits despite not producing anything release-worthy). This mod is a good argument for me to continue to, well... "keep an open mind, stay neutral." Since depending on the situation I could really go either way if the whole issue of assets became a debate in itself.

--------------------------------------- story stuff

Spoiler:
5. At least this BP has something to keep the player in the mission, even when the mission failed warnings show up... but maybe that something is plain obvious, in that the GTVA just throws more big ships to make the player worse than dead, enough to make the player behind the 4th wall think, "F*** this, I'll restar--- wait, this is ridiculous. There MUST be a reason... play on then."

6. As the protagonist says, "big ugly ships ready to die." My reaction to it was, "Screw you, you didn't see a Sathanas with four imbalanced BFRed wiping everything off the floor and treating every usable munition against it the same as an ant's bite... GAAAAAAHHHHHH" (This point sounds like a random rant in itself :lol:)

7. Neither side is good, neither side is bad, but this is what BP was aiming for, so suck it up > pointlessly whine. Most of the time it was the GTVA that looked like the bad guy, Admiral Steele whatever, one UEF pilot citing "his dogs". Still, the Carthage baiting was equally evil looking at the UEF's side, yet it ALSO teaches people not to f*** with SOC for being able to plan so far ahead, just like World War II.

8. Something I noticed, anything significant to Alpha 1 in FS2 or canon gets to live. Nice. No that's not sarcasm - if somehow the Carthage gets through the entire BPverse not killed then that's probably some tribute to canon. As evil as it is I think it's better that way... I mean come on, who didn't hesitate over the trigger when the Carthage is in front of you, albeit with RED IFF? Not forgetting, when the test squadron from FS2 jumps in they were practically unkillable, and if the player hadn't run back to the Indus earlier or activated cheats, bullying session ensues?

---------------------------------------

9. Finally...

Spoiler:
When the tech room entries started talking about universes and so on...
No wait... nevermind. Deja vu. :mad: :( :sigh: <--- the "oh well suck it up" look.

You guys did hard work, so you earned it. :D :yes: Part of me will start whining about it but ultimately I know that's pointless. Safe to say though, even this Part 1 of WiH has killed any desire I have to even mod or FRED anything for a long time to come, probably... umm... "putting the pen to the paper" in layman's terms, for fear of what I have coming nowhere close.

That's it from me then. I'd talk more but this is already overkill to me. Cheers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 07, 2010, 11:56:24 pm
I am unable to finish this tonight.  If I continued trying to beat that mission, I'd end up ragequitting.

Spoiler:
****ing maxim bombers EVERYWHERE.  And it does NOT help AT ALL that my target bomb/bomber key is working in reverse order for some strange reason.  I want to target the bomb 100 meters in front of me, not FIVE ****ING CLICKS OFF!  Then, by the time I learn there's an SSM TAG'r en route to the Indus, I'm six clicks from him, and he's four clicks from the Indus.  Do the math.  Even if I get him with the treb-equivalents, he's already launched. :sigh:

I'll try again tomorrow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 07, 2010, 11:58:39 pm
Oh, that mission. Guys, no-one will know if you play it on very easy the first time. :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 07, 2010, 11:59:51 pm
I AM on Very Easy. :(

Spoiler:
I don't think I'd be having as much trouble if that first goddamn wave of bombers wouldn't come from behind and take the Indus down 15-20% before I can effectively reach them and scatter the formation.  Then, there are two full wings of bombers coming from the front starting to launch bombs, and I can only give orders to one wing of fighters.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 12:02:15 am
Stay near the frigates.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2010, 12:04:23 am
Spoiler:
Are we talking about Delenda Est?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 08, 2010, 12:05:42 am
Spoiler:
Are we talking about Delenda Est?

I think so. 
Spoiler:
Frigates bear down on the cornered Carthage
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 12:10:08 am
Spoiler:
Yep, that's Delenda Est. Stay close to the frigates, and learn how to use the Archer on beam turrets and Slammers on enemy bomber formations.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2010, 12:13:43 am
Spoiler:
Yep, that's the way. Also, you don't need to 'destroy' incoming bomber wings, pop slammers at them, fire into them, disperse the formations, and move onto the next one. Ten seconds spent evading submunitions is ten seconds they can't spend firing torpedoes. Hell, just spray primaries at them. Also, try and ignore most of the fighters (do NOT follow Brie's advice in the first mission, taking down bombers first has been military aviation doctrine since the Battle of Britain), except the first wave, or when you can easily slammer them.

Also, a good trick is to slammer fighter escorts and take the bombers with smaller secondaries, when things get heavy.

I found the trick was to make sure I wasn't being tied up with one formation. Also, that SSM strike wing is a MUST. It will make your day so much better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 08, 2010, 12:20:02 am
I'll keep that in mind tomorrow.  I'm not going to risk RRRAAAGHGH'ing at it tonight, and I need to be up early for church tomorrow.

Spoiler:
****ing maxims

I'm guessing this mission is the source of WHAT THE DEAR JESUS THE SKY IS FULL OF WARHEADS lulziness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 12:20:44 am
I'm on the third mission now, I am LOVING EVERY DAMN SECOND.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mjn.mixael on August 08, 2010, 12:22:28 am
I've said a lot about WiH in IRC.. I'll try to sum up what I said for the whole team to read.

WiH puts you in the think of battle and for the first time in FS.. you feel it. You REALLY feel it. This campaign takes the traditional style of "kill wings of fighters/bombers until something interesting happens" and throws it out the window. Like I said, WiH puts you right in the middle of the war. You are forced to make rash decisions on the fly, hoping that it was the right one. The missions flawlessly execute an atmosphere that is unrelenting and will leave you craving for more.

I did not care too much for AoA and I was skeptical that I would enjoy WiH any more than I did AoA. But let me tell you this. WiH is the best thing this side of sliced bread. (And sliced bread is freaking awesome).

If you are in the process of designing missions... go back to the drawing board because what you've got just isn't good enough anymore. This campaign proves that we no longer need the same old stuff.

 :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 08, 2010, 12:25:35 am
*Ahem*OH MY GOD, THIS IS THE GREATEST MOD I'VE EVER PLAYED IN MY LIFE!!!!

Hey, Chester A. Bum, back off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 12:28:24 am
I'll keep that in mind tomorrow.  I'm not going to risk RRRAAAGHGH'ing at it tonight, and I need to be up early for church tomorrow.

Spoiler:
****ing maxims

I'm guessing this mission is the source of WHAT THE DEAR JESUS THE SKY IS FULL OF WARHEADS lulziness.

Spoiler:
Don't forget you have wingman commands and your wiingmen are really good.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 08, 2010, 12:33:38 am
Spoiler:
Yep, that's the way. Also, you don't need to 'destroy' incoming bomber wings, pop slammers at them, fire into them, disperse the formations, and move onto the next one. Ten seconds spent evading submunitions is ten seconds they can't spend firing torpedoes. Hell, just spray primaries at them. Also, try and ignore most of the fighters (do NOT follow Brie's advice in the first mission, taking down bombers first has been military aviation doctrine since the Battle of Britain), except the first wave, or when you can easily slammer them.

Also, a good trick is to slammer fighter escorts and take the bombers with smaller secondaries, when things get heavy.

I found the trick was to make sure I wasn't being tied up with one formation. Also, that SSM strike wing is a MUST. It will make your day so much better.
Could you explain to non native english :) what is pop slammers ? It's the first time I read/heard it. I'm stuck on that mission as well.
Spoiler:
In Medium difficulty I got shot down by Long Range missile. The second try, I hide into the Reiza Station. But after, the station was destroyed. :( So I made a third try on Easy, and now, it's the Valeri which crush one of my Cruiser.

Damn, I love so much the Sound Track, and all that bang bang sounds :)

Don't watch if you didn't finish the campaign (I might be wrong concerning the mission title)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkbh6eWR7mg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIcsG2j6OMU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeiURveWy60
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2010, 12:38:33 am
Oh, I meant fire slammer warheads. I think we're talking about different missions, however.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 12:38:48 am
****ING FRIENDLY FIRE.
I wish those losers would check where I am before going LOL SLAMMERS when I'm dogfighting.

It's retarded. I could have taken all them Gefs solo (I killed over half of em already all by myself), just to get splashed by backup-I-didn't-want.

I am not amused.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 12:39:33 am
****ING FRIENDLY FIRE.

You're resistant to Slammer friendly fire in m15, but not in other missions. They only just got around to installing the IFF-fused warheads.  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 12:40:48 am
yeah well, a friendly wing jumped in and splashed me with slammers before I even knew what hit me :/
I complete the objective, complete the bonus objective, kill 10+ fighters, and then DIE TO FRIENDLY SLAMMER FIRE :<

I, am not enjoying this as much as AoA. Got no drive to keep playing from the story, and has too much QQ not enough PewPew.
AoA was awesome cause you got to bumrush Shivan Destroyers, and here, I'm stuck defending transports and freighters \o/. When a GTVA warship comes in, I don't even want to bother shooting at it.

I really hoping that changes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: asyikarea51 on August 08, 2010, 12:41:42 am
Go back to the drawing board because what you've got just isn't good enough anymore.

Bang. But oh well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2010, 12:44:19 am
Unless of course you played WiH prior and design all future missions with WiH standards in mind. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 12:46:36 am
Could you explain to non native english :) what is pop slammers ? It's the first time I read/heard it. I'm stuck on that mission as well.
Spoiler:
In Medium difficulty I got shot down by Long Range missile. The second try, I hide into the Reiza Station. But after, the station was destroyed. :( So I made a third try on Easy, and now, it's the Valeri which crush one of my Cruiser.

Spoiler:
You're on Darkest Hour. It's tricky. Here's my suggestion: keep your Beta Wing alive by giving them a lot of aggressive attack orders. When the big attack at the end comes in, have Gamma guard Rheza, send Delta out to attack the AWACS, and take your own Beta wing out to intercept one of the Maxim bomber groups, taking out the escort first.

Don't worry about saving the Vatican. The crew of that ship will gladly give their lives to defend Earth.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 08, 2010, 12:47:51 am
Where is Commander Bei from Age of Aquarius in that campaign ? :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 12:48:50 am
Where is Commander Bei from Age of Aquarius in that campaign ? :p

Spoiler:
You'll find out.

yeah well, a friendly wing jumped in and splashed me with slammers before I even knew what hit me :/
I complete the objective, complete the bonus objective, kill 10+ fighters, and then DIE TO FRIENDLY SLAMMER FIRE :<

I, am not enjoying this as much as AoA. Got no drive to keep playing from the story, and has too much QQ not enough PewPew.
AoA was awesome cause you got to bumrush Shivan Destroyers, and here, I'm stuck defending transports and freighters \o/. When a GTVA warship comes in, I don't even want to bother shooting at it.

I really hoping that changes.

I'm 56% confident you'll like Act 2 better. Just like AoA things kick into high gear around M10.

Also there's only one mission defending transports and freighters.

But all in all it's a much darker, more psychological story than AoA's hellyeah-kickass adventure. We figured we were taking some risks, but all in all I think they've paid off for most players.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 08, 2010, 12:57:54 am
Question: Can I find that song from the end (which I think is made by ORIGA, if QVP is to be trusted) on iTunes? I can't find it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 12:59:38 am
Question: Can I find that song from the end (which I think is made by ORIGA, if QVP is to be trusted) on iTunes? I can't find it!

Aney, Unborn Child by Origa. There's a remixed version by Darius also included in BP2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mongoose on August 08, 2010, 01:03:41 am
Wait...Origa's in here?  Like the GITS: Stand-Alone Complex themes Origa?  Now I really want it. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 08, 2010, 01:04:24 am
Its not there. Searching the title, artist, or album gives no results on iTunes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 01:07:31 am
Its not there. Searching the title, artist, or album gives no results on iTunes.

Here. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlQraziPI3A)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 01:10:48 am
Dammit Battuta you've ****ed my mind sideways, Dilmah told me it was you!
That mission was ****ing freakier than the Transcendant!
I think my spine froze.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2010, 01:14:27 am
Oh, Darius was also responsible!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: asyikarea51 on August 08, 2010, 01:16:10 am
I just remembered.

Spoiler:
Does the ending remind anyone of Descent 3's opening? I think there was more than one Descent reference in the mod as well, but I forgot.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thorbin on August 08, 2010, 01:48:04 am
Whoa whoa whoa dude.

Are those mods you have not in their own folders?
It would appear so. These are likely from a mod I installed over a year ago (I have had this FS2 installation on my PC a while). I have removed the 5 mod related VPs from my Freespace 2 root folder, and will try again. I will post the results later.

In addition to removing this mod VPs from my root folder, a couple of my MediaVP downloads were corrupt, so I replaced those files with fresh downloads. WiH now works as advertised. In fact, I just reached the first mission in Act 2, and have to get some sleep. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 01:50:28 am
Sleep is a crutch. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 08, 2010, 02:59:03 am
Hi, brand new to the boards so I'm unsure if this is the right place to be posted, but I appear to have encountered a bug on the Delenda Est mission (which I know is such happy happy news to you all  :D )

Details in the spoiler

Spoiler:

Basically, the event timings are severely out of whack.  The main offender is the Jackknife attack group.  Over the course of the 30 (not an exaggeration) attempts it took to finally beat this mission the Jackknife attack group never entered the engagement at the same time twice.  I had them never show up, I never had them jump in at what I assume is the correct point (after the final strike squadrons from the Tev destroyer are wiped out), but I had them show up everywhere else.  The vast majority of the time they jumped early, usually either before or immediately after the 30+ strike craft are launched.  Once they even arrived before the Jackknife order was given, I did not load from the checkpoint in that instance working on the possibility that that may be the source of the insanity, leaving me 10 clicks away and completely unable to do anything before they were diced into confetti.

Obviously, this makes the mission extremely difficult because 1) You're nowhere near the Tev corvettes you need to disarm and 2) there are still 30+ strike craft who will eat you and your wingmates alive should you ignore them and focus on the corvettes.  As mentioned earlier, it took me 30-ish tries to actually complete the mission, and I suspect my success is mainly based on lucky torpedo hits from the frigates and not any exceptional flying by myself.

there are other little oddities too, like the 2nd Tev corvette in the initial fight never wanting to jump out ever, and gamma wing starting out 5 clicks from you if you load from checkpoint 1 (making them basically useless for the massive charlie-foxtrot that immediately ensues) that kind of mar the whole fun factor as well.

I hate to give bad feedback because, on the whole, I have enjoyed AoA and WiHp1 immensely.  But unfortunately the finale got reduced to an incredibly frustrating experience for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 08, 2010, 03:01:41 am
Spoiler:
I just helped the War Gods steal the logistics vessel. My character got 2 days rest. I think I deserve some sleep too now. Probably shouldn't have started the campaign at 11:30...
So far:

-the dream mission was a pain in the ass but cool. Also reminded me a lot of Dead Space. How did it turn out that just tapping T got the boxes in the right order regardless of proximity to ship?

-flashing images when you first go crazy went way over my head. I could make out that the first flash was an eye (that was probably 4:3 distorted to 16:9), but the subsequent ones were a little hard to identify from lack of vsync and stretch distortion. Was that Earth? Oh, what is INDG or whatever the 5th one was? Also, was a little annoying trying to keep track of messages and the status numbers at the same time. They're too far apart on my screen :(

-I killed my hostage by accident. Objective told me to get a missile lock, so I did, but that didn't do anything. Then I accidently pressed the right mouse button :(

-the new interceptor I get flies at 200. ...wow. It even goes 120+ backwards. Yet to use that properly in combat though. One thing: its briefing .ani is all jerky and ugly looking. And very very GTVA in scheme.

-characters in general get lovely development even though there's such huge limitations to how you can interact with them. (ie, read briefing text, which ironically, is never brief)

-apotheosis? Does that mean I get to fly uber-rigged Vishnan ships later on? Not like UEF fighters aren't tons better than anything GTVA has already...

-never thought I'd dismay at Orestes jumping in, until I realized it wasn't the Orestes but another Raynor. I actually thought "omg we're all ****ed"

-clever use of the recommendations in the debrief.

-not sure how I'll ever be able to fly GTVA fighters again. They're all junk.

-k sleep.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 03:02:06 am
Hi, brand new to the boards so I'm unsure if this is the right place to be posted, but I appear to have encountered a bug on the Delenda Est mission (which I know is such happy happy news to you all  :D )

Details in the spoiler

Spoiler:

Basically, the event timings are severely out of whack.  The main offender is the Jackknife attack group.  Over the course of the 30 (not an exaggeration) attempts it took to finally beat this mission the Jackknife attack group never entered the engagement at the same time twice.  I had them never show up, I never had them jump in at what I assume is the correct point (after the final strike squadrons from the Tev destroyer are wiped out), but I had them show up everywhere else.  The vast majority of the time they jumped early, usually either before or immediately after the 30+ strike craft are launched.  Once they even arrived before the Jackknife order was given, I did not load from the checkpoint in that instance working on the possibility that that may be the source of the insanity, leaving me 10 clicks away and completely unable to do anything before they were diced into confetti.

Obviously, this makes the mission extremely difficult because 1) You're nowhere near the Tev corvettes you need to disarm and 2) there are still 30+ strike craft who will eat you and your wingmates alive should you ignore them and focus on the corvettes.  As mentioned earlier, it took me 30-ish tries to actually complete the mission, and I suspect my success is mainly based on lucky torpedo hits from the frigates and not any exceptional flying by myself.

there are other little oddities too, like the 2nd Tev corvette in the initial fight never wanting to jump out ever, and gamma wing starting out 5 clicks from you if you load from checkpoint 1 (making them basically useless for the massive charlie-foxtrot that immediately ensues) that kind of mar the whole fun factor as well.

I hate to give bad feedback because, on the whole, I have enjoyed AoA and WiHp1 immensely.  But unfortunately the finale got reduced to an incredibly frustrating experience for me.

wtf

It sounds like you have a borked pilot file. That is not a bug we've ever seen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 08, 2010, 03:08:57 am

wtf

It sounds like you have a borked pilot file. That is not a bug we've ever seen.

I figured it was something specific to me, but I also figured it was best to bring it up since I'm not exactly a modder and could be wrong.

If you want me to provide anything data wise I'm happy to help out, nothing else popped up the entire campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 03:22:33 am

wtf

It sounds like you have a borked pilot file. That is not a bug we've ever seen.

I figured it was something specific to me, but I also figured it was best to bring it up since I'm not exactly a modder and could be wrong.

If you want me to provide anything data wise I'm happy to help out, nothing else popped up the entire campaign.

No, you did exactly the right thing. We need to sort this out!

Can you launch your FreeSpace 2 install using WiH as a mod and then post the debug log? If you don't know how to generate one see the Support forum.

If you have a VP viewer like VPView (duh), could you also do me a favor and extract the bp2-15 mission file and send the text file to me via Pastebin? I need to make sure something hasn't gone wrong, because the mission file is quite explicit that
Spoiler:
the Jackknife ships will ONLY arrive once the Indus is precisely 8618 meters from the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 03:32:52 am
Spoiler:
-flashing images when you first go crazy went way over my head. I could make out that the first flash was an eye (that was probably 4:3 distorted to 16:9), but the subsequent ones were a little hard to identify from lack of vsync and stretch distortion. Was that Earth? Oh, what is INDG or whatever the 5th one was? Also, was a little annoying trying to keep track of messages and the status numbers at the same time. They're too far apart on my screen :(
Spoiler:
The fifth one was NGRI. Short for Nagari. See BP website, apparently links still appear in Spoiler tags. I didn't get what NGRI stood for either. When I realized, chills literally shot through my spine.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 03:35:09 am
Oh hey, thedjstu, do you remember if you started a new pilot file before kicking off War in Heaven? Just a diagnostic question, I don't think you're any breed of numbskull.  ;)

I gotta turn in. Another BP myrmidon should be along shortly to help out. If not, back in eight hours!

Wait! Bolt from the blue while brushing my teeth.

Did these problems you were having occur while replaying the mission after death or a mission failure? Did you hit either 'restart mission' on the death screen or 'replay mission' in the failure debrief?

If so, this closely resembles a bug I recently had using a late or final 3.6.12 build, in which missions could intermittently bork up when replaying. Events would trigger randomly (or not at all) and stuff was just...weird. QuantumDelta claims the bug may date back to retail.

You may be able to avoid the bug by quitting out to the main menu after every play and then restarting by pressing 'continue'. Your checkpoints should be preserved.

You may have been the victim of a code-side problem. That makes it all the more urgent to get that debug log!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 08, 2010, 04:42:56 am
Moddb download mirror added to WiH release topic.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 08, 2010, 04:50:51 am
:yes: to ModDB pimping!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 08, 2010, 04:52:03 am
Seems like WiH got coverage on Moddb front page. :D

(http://img213.imageshack.us/img213/3845/wihmoddbfrontpage.png)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 08, 2010, 04:58:20 am
I see it (http://www.moddb.com/), too. It's also at the top of the "Popular Mods" list, on the right. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 05:04:18 am
A minor dialogue nitpick, on the Pesedjet mission, they tell the Littman to go to the port dock, yet it docks on the ship's dorsal centerline.
Also with the Uriel's external points, is there anything that can be done about certain weapons hanging foward from where the pylons actually are, the Firestorm torpedos (Forgot what they're called this time) need to go back a fair deal I believe.

UEF Itano Circus is epic... :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 08, 2010, 05:07:24 am
Spoiler tags anyone? :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 08, 2010, 05:09:59 am
Congrats on two highlights in two days.
 
Still not got this yet.
 
Amazing how much a hangover can contribute to not wanting to do stuff. . . . . . It'll keep til I get at my high speed conn at work.
 
 
Checkpoints, choosing dialogue, few other bits I spied from the thread that interest my curiousity bone.
 
With regard to the VA issue. I'm old enough to remember Derelict without voice and I coped, I also managed with sync and Transcend and windmills.
This will not hamper my efforts to enjoy it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 05:12:01 am
Spoiler tags anyone? :nervous:
It's not like steps to complete the mission or critical information is being put out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: carbine7 on August 08, 2010, 06:38:19 am
I just finished the campaign, and words escape me. I'll leave it at  :jaw:

Spoiler:
I could just see the Indus becoming the next helpless Pyro :( . Descent 3 anyone?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellstryker on August 08, 2010, 07:01:38 am
Okay, I usually don't do this, but this campaign warrants an extreeeeemely lengthy review, which I hope won't be breezed over completely.

First the good; the writing. Usually, (and by usually I mean 90% of the time) sequels fail to meet their predecessors expectations. WiH on the other hand not only matched but exceeded AoA in every way (And yes, believe it or not I did have my gripes with AoA). I kind of wish you had time to expand more on Noemi's childhood, and her supposed mental instability, and I definitely would like to have seen returning AoA characters - in particular the Sanctuary survivors. When I saw no returning characters, or any real mention of their exploits outside of
Spoiler:
the nebula mission
, I was very put off and expected there to be too much new content to properly flesh out, and that it would not feel like a true sequel.

In this I was right and wrong. War in Heaven did not actually feel like a proper BP sequel, but the writing was so insurmountably better that it blew my mind. The overall plot and mission design was rock solid, and more realistic than anything I've played since The Procyon Insurgency, and the characters were what did it for me. Noemi was alright, though as stated earlier I would've liked to have seen her expanded on more, but Wargods and the writing for Simms in particular was astounding, and would very much like to know who did the majority of the writing for her, as she was bone chillingly reminiscent of a very, very close friend of mine. I'll be very upset if she's killed off
Spoiler:
, but given the last 'mission' it's unlikely that she survives.

The Indus and Two Fleet felt like home, I can't think of a better way to word it. This especially sunk in during the push through the Hood/Serkr blockade at the martian gate, and the aftermath of that mission (Which was also easily my favorite in the campaign).
Spoiler:
You wanted to protect your comrades, you wanted to come home alive, and most importantly you just wanted it all to come to an end. I'm also can't say I didn't shed a tear or two when the Yangtze and company made their final stand, or when the Indus drifted into the sun.

All these factors came together to form the greatest emotional experience in a freespace campaign seen to date - my only fear is that the freespace engine provides far too much limitation to present such a rich and well fleshed out universe.

-----------

Annnnd then there's the bad...

My biggest gripe here is the UEF ships, as well as the starboxes. They taxed the piss out of my poor old vista burdened rig I'm running at the moment due to inefficient texturing and LoDs (Or lackthereof? I didn't get a good enough look through the 5 or so FPS I got whilst staring at even a single Karuna). Any mission with even *one* of those things absolutely killed me, as did the Uriel and Lao Tze. I actually had to cheat on the Hood/Serkr blockade mission and the last mission because I couldn't kill anything in time to save anything. The Lunar city mission also made my comp writhe in agony as well.

Please fix it. It's bad enough having to play an ugly game, but an ugly and inefficient one just makes me want to rip out things spines. I don't like having to rip out the spines of brilliant writers.

And last but certainly not least, I could give VA a spin in the future when you're ready to begin that aspect of the campaign. I'd probably be best for Captain Sorensen, or something like that methinks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 08, 2010, 07:02:54 am
I just finished the campaign, and words escape me. I'll leave it at  :jaw:

Spoiler:
I could just see the Indus becoming the next helpless Pyro :( . Descent 3 anyone?

I didn't find it all that similar, to be honest, and yes, I've seen the intro for that game too. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 08, 2010, 07:09:19 am
My biggest gripe here is the UEF ships, as well as the starboxes. They taxed the piss out of my poor old vista burdened rig I'm running at the moment due to inefficient texturing and LoDs (Or lackthereof? I didn't get a good enough look through the 5 or so FPS I got whilst staring at even a single Karuna). Any mission with even *one* of those things absolutely killed me, as did the Uriel and Lao Tze. I actually had to cheat on the Hood/Serkr blockade mission and the last mission because I couldn't kill anything in time to save anything. The Lunar city mission also made my comp writhe in agony as well.

We are painfully aware of this. But we didn't have the ressources to get all the models fixed up in time, unfortunately. There is a new Karuna in the pipeline, and we've talked to a few guys who are willing to work on the other models.
We'll put them out there as quickly as we can, rest assured of that. In fact, if you (and I'm talking to everyone who might be reading this) can help us, just drop us a line and we'll talk about it.

As for the people of AoA:
Spoiler:
We left them out of this release on purpose, to allow us to concentrate on introducing the new characters properly. That said, they are still around and they will reappear (you have seen the end cutscene until the end, haven't you?), but for now, they are simply nowhere near Laporte, and War in Heaven is above all Laporte's story
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellstryker on August 08, 2010, 07:41:20 am
I don't have the right tools on here to assist with UV mapping or LoDing. If I would I could, believe me. Maybe in the future if somebody doesn't get to it first.

And, no need for the explanation on the AoA characters. I understood clearly once I finished the campaign. It was only early on that I was put off by it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: m!m on August 08, 2010, 07:42:18 am
I just finished this campaign and the only thing I can say is
 :jaw:        :jaw:        :jaw:
This is the best campaign I have ever played.
Everything was perfect, the plot, the characters, the models, the effects, the music, the atmosphere, ... everything!!
This campaign made me actually feel the emotions and the pain of
Spoiler:
Laporte. The ending is the perfect prelude to WiH part 2 and I just want to play it.(I hope I don't have to wait another year :nervous:)
Finally I want to express my thanks to the BP team and of course the FSU- and SCP-teams who have done an outstanding job bringing FreeSpace this far.
Thank you!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: matt007 on August 08, 2010, 07:59:51 am
I've never really posted on here, but I've been following the work going on for a long time, now I feel I need to share my thoughts on this wonderful campaign.

Spoiler:
Having played the Directors Cut version of AoA a few months back, I always thought it was at a similar level to Silent Threat and that user made campaigns had really become as good as they could be. Although I went into this with high expectations, I was absolutely blown away by what you guys have done here. In terms of character arcs and story goes, this campaign is simply unchallenged. Even the retail version of Freespace did not go into the sort of depth WiH does when it comes to the character you play. Her interactions with squad-mates (particularly Simms) and her strange schizophrenic personality all added to the experience.

The story of the war was superbly told, from the high points of catching the GTVA supply ship (the name eludes me) to the lows of Darkest Hour and the Carthage trap. The missions had a good variation of difficulty and were pretty much all enjoyable. The nebula mission with the Vishnan communication was really well done but the standout mission for me was Delenda Est. Not only was it epic in scale, with the number of ships and fighters present, but it was relentless throughout. The sacrifice of the Katana at the end was heart wrenching, down mainly to the superb character development throughout the campaign. I was half expecting a Vishnian ship to jump in and save the day during the final cutscene, but the appearence of a Fedayeen ship asking specifically for Noemi was an excellent twist.

The music, as with AoA was simply brilliant. You never realise how much difference in game music can make until you're sitting there in a tense space battle and you listen to it. Makes you feel the pressure of fighting the war and the need to kill or be killed.

There are a couple of niggles as with any campaign. The frame rate is one, which I see you've already mentioned. I have a very powerful PC, but even I was struggling to stay above 30fps at times. The other is the sheer volume of dialogue. Although necessary to tell the story in such detail, its quite frustrating to have to keep stopping and checking missed messages. WiH is already the best user made campaign I've played, but with voice acting it would comfortably be on a par with the retail campaign for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 08:04:06 am
I finished it, I feel empty now.
Best campaign I've ever played, definately eager to see what Part 2 is like.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 09:03:10 am
For those who are interested about Cockpit View, just grab the attach file.
Metaldestroyer: I'm sorry, but that tbm of yours will NOT be part of BP2. As you can see, you are losing the message senders, which is absolutely unacceptable for us. There's a code bug at work here which we'll have to track down and fix.
Aha!  Turns out the table needs a +noreplace right after each $Flags: line.  Otherwise (as far as I understand it) the "show ship" becomes the only flag, replacing everything including "fighter" and "player_ship".  All sorts of wonky behavior ensues.

So here's a fixed (afaik) attachment:
I snagged your attachment to see what the other ships looked like from the inside, seems the Uriel and Durga's panels don't come up (Missing texture?), and the Uhlan's interior is pretty shiny, but the rest look really good.

I want to fly the Narayana. ;7
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 09:08:37 am
Well, I loved that first cutscene so much I went and frapsed it, then uploaded it to youtube in HD (Recommend you watch it in HD and fullscreen it to read the dialogue, again)

Feel free to use it as a bit of advertisement here and there, as I think it captures War in Heaven perfectly (And set the mood so well)

Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_bWDo5mlDw&hd=1)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 08, 2010, 09:41:18 am
Spoiler:
-flashing images when you first go crazy went way over my head. I could make out that the first flash was an eye (that was probably 4:3 distorted to 16:9), but the subsequent ones were a little hard to identify from lack of vsync and stretch distortion. Was that Earth? Oh, what is INDG or whatever the 5th one was? Also, was a little annoying trying to keep track of messages and the status numbers at the same time. They're too far apart on my screen :(
Spoiler:
The fifth one was NGRI. Short for Nagari. See BP website, apparently links still appear in Spoiler tags. I didn't get what NGRI stood for either. When I realized, chills literally shot through my spine.
Spoiler:
Yeah no. I don't think I like the prospect of having Shivans in my head either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 09:44:33 am
Okay, I usually don't do this, but this campaign warrants an extreeeeemely lengthy review, which I hope won't be breezed over completely.

Believe me, mate, we savor every words of these reviews. They really do make it all worth it.

Quote
My biggest gripe here is the UEF ships, as well as the starboxes. They taxed the piss out of my poor old vista burdened rig I'm running at the moment due to inefficient texturing and LoDs (Or lackthereof? I didn't get a good enough look through the 5 or so FPS I got whilst staring at even a single Karuna). Any mission with even *one* of those things absolutely killed me, as did the Uriel and Lao Tze. I actually had to cheat on the Hood/Serkr blockade mission and the last mission because I couldn't kill anything in time to save anything. The Lunar city mission also made my comp writhe in agony as well.

Please fix it. It's bad enough having to play an ugly game, but an ugly and inefficient one just makes me want to rip out things spines. I don't like having to rip out the spines of brilliant writers.

If you'll read the release post, you can see that we actually have a big glaring notice there about inefficient models, followed by a request for help. We did everything we could, but Blue Planet's philosophy has always been to work with public assets - we don't focus heavily on modeling new stuff. If these models are going to fixed up we have to reach out to the community. Which we've done, and hopefully we'll have a performance patch in the future.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 09:45:19 am
Spoiler:
I just did the Combat Psyche Evaluation. I like how 'Ken' used nearly the same words as Bosch, about playing our part to the bloody end. A very nice touch, and stresses that Bosch was Nagari sensitive
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 08, 2010, 10:15:27 am
Spoiler:
I'm curious about the Carthage and it's Admiral. I assume that Steele did not inform the Carthage of his plans to suddenly have a destroyer pop-up to come to the rescue so the Carthage's admiral (who cares a lot for her officers) might be rather pissed off. Not because she nearly died, but because many of her loyal officers were nearly sacrificed. Also the Carthage seemed to play fair with it's admiral stating that she would face this battle the way it went with intent to win, or otherwise accepting ending up like admiral Koth once did sacrificing herself (we don't know if she would have surrendered if that other destroyer did not come to the rescue). Maybe the Carthage and her admiral may rethink their position in this war. I hope so.

As for Simms, I'm guessing she dies and maybe that is not as bad as surviving for Simms, I couldn't see her go on living. 'Teaching pilots how to fly' sounds like awaiting for death to come, for real this time. If she died, then she died in Noemi's arms, maybe that was all she could have asked for after all which happened. For once she died and someone stayed behind, instead of the other way around. Also I'm not sure if the Feyadeen are so top-secret that they'll wipe out the Indus after retrieving Laporte, which would make a great catalyst for pissing the girl off even more.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 10:18:53 am
Spoiler:
Admiral Anita Lopez knew that it was all part of a big plan. See this thread link (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on August 08, 2010, 10:22:23 am
NOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooo... and I haven't been able to play Starcraft II so far, because my new PC hasn't been finished yet. For good's sake my girlfriend is on vacation with her best friend next week, so I have plenty of time. :D

Anyway, thanks for that birthday present. I love you guys so much. :D :) I am so excited!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 08, 2010, 10:23:26 am
@Snail:

Spoiler:
Ah right I read that, forgot about it, I remember it now. I still wonder if this will shake things up within admiral Anita Lopez. I guess all will be revealed in time!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 10:38:31 am
@Snail:

Spoiler:
Ah right I read that, forgot about it, I remember it now. I still wonder if this will shake things up within admiral Anita Lopez. I guess all will be revealed in time!

First off you are awesome and make the whole team very happy. Second:

Spoiler:
I think Lopez knew she was part of some bigger plan that would put her beloved crews in danger, but she didn't know exactly how it was going to play out. During the events of Pawns and Delenda Est, she wasn't just acting (at least I think so), she was genuinely concerned for her crews and her own ship. She didn't know exactly how Steele was planning to run this - she probably had no idea the Imperieuse was lurking in-system - and for all she knew she was going to be left out to dry while Steele captured Earth or something. It's up to you to decide how she'd react to that, but you'll note that it's fairly rare for her battle group to actually lose many warships (fighters are another matter).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 08, 2010, 10:42:18 am
Batt, more keybind problems - the jump out (ALT-J versus my actual bind) shows up in every mission in the campaign, but "The Intervention" call for help key doesn't work and I'll be damned if I can figure out what it was originally bound to.  It's telling me to press CAPS Lock (my toggle Glide key) but that isn't doing it.  I made it through without doing it, but it'd be nice to have it actually work :)  I'll take this opportunity as someone with an unusual keyset (I use mouse/keyboard, and virtually everything is remapped from the defaults) to volunteer to beta test Part 2 =)

Great work still though - that mission against the SOC fighters was tense and actually had an emotional impact.  The BP team rocks =)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 10:47:36 am
Is anyone else that has show ship flags on their UEF fighters missing screen textures on the Uriel and Duraga? Making sure it's not just me now.
I see now, if you want insturment panels back on whatever fighters that have missing panels, they've been named invisible on PCS2, the panel textures are in the .VP so they can be loaded back up.

I also have a rough time with dialogue / cutscene skip (Fire or Alt + J) working, it does work once in a while but most times it doesn't. I do have the default keys mapped to the function.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 11:26:33 am
Bloody keybinds!

As well as many tiny mission tweaks we're working on slapping anti-Slammer armor on the player across more missions and (of course) fixing up those keybinds. Sorry about the inconvenience, saintly ones.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 08, 2010, 12:24:04 pm
Pffft, if the only problems in a release like this are a few balance issues and technical problems with keybinds, you guys have absolutely nothing to apologize for.  This mod is fantastic.

Actually, I saw Hellstryker's post there and I too have noticed some performance issues - which I find more impressive than anything as the visuals in a community mod with unpaid volunteers are bringing down the FPS on my system, which isn't exactly an old machine.  That's testimony to how much work has gone into this, so I'm pretty impressed.  The lowest FPS I've clocked so far is 29, which considering no other FSO mod has brought me below then 60 I have v-synced it at, is pretty damn impressive =)

On the plus side, the keybinds to fix your weapons in "The Intervention" worked just fine, so it's not a problem with every bind in the game ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 12:25:21 pm
That's testimony to how much work has gone into this, so I'm pretty impressed.  The lowest FPS I've clocked so far is 29, which considering no other FSO mod has brought me below then 60 I have v-synced it at, is pretty damn impressive =)

Don't give us too much credit! It's a testimony to how badly optimized the models are. We really need to get Steve-O's ships tuned up; they can work a lot better while still looking just as good.

Quote
On the plus side, the keybinds to fix your weapons in "The Intervention" worked just fine, so it's not a problem with every bind in the game ;)

Awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 08, 2010, 12:35:48 pm
Spoiler:
Mission where you save the Vasudan logistics vessel was masterful. First time ever that I had trouble pulling the trigger against enemies in any game. I don't think I fired a shot at all in the second half. Much more powerful than the airport level in MW2 in emotional shock, for what it's worth.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 12:37:31 pm
Spoiler:
Mission where you save the Vasudan logistics vessel was masterful. First time ever that I had trouble pulling the trigger against enemies in any game. I don't think I fired a shot at all in the second half. Much more powerful than the airport level in MW2 in emotional shock, for what it's worth.

Wow, awesome, thanks.
Spoiler:
We were really worried about that one; I'm glad it paid off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 08, 2010, 12:58:30 pm
Spoiler:
At least I'm not the only one who didn't shoot at that part. :nervous:

Going to try finishing up today, with the advice I got early this morning on IRC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 08, 2010, 01:11:35 pm
Quick question concerning fury AI: What are damage reductions/refire rates/max attackers/max turrets at each level? I'm playing at medium, because I'm going for a plot run first, and I'm not sure if my survivability is due to the awesome UEF fighters or player handicaps.

I mean, if I get caught in a torrent of primary fire and can't shake it, I'm dead in 2 seconds, which is definitely not the same as in retail medium. Yet, sometimes I pass missions with 100% hull integrity because my shields somehow soak up everything. Anyways, the point is, ideally, I'd like a difficulty with 0 handicaps, but not the h4x aiming skillz that exist in retail insane.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 08, 2010, 01:15:50 pm
Open bp2-aip.tbm from bp2-core.vp and find out. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 08, 2010, 01:53:38 pm
This is relevant to my interests.
Spoiler:
I spotted the shield.ani for the FTFx Thor, is the .pof somewhere around in the visual.vp?

And I've been wondering about these two...
Spoiler:
Little Devil and BALLS OF STEELE (Lawl)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 08, 2010, 02:55:00 pm

wtf

It sounds like you have a borked pilot file. That is not a bug we've ever seen.

I figured it was something specific to me, but I also figured it was best to bring it up since I'm not exactly a modder and could be wrong.

If you want me to provide anything data wise I'm happy to help out, nothing else popped up the entire campaign.

No, you did exactly the right thing. We need to sort this out!

Can you launch your FreeSpace 2 install using WiH as a mod and then post the debug log? If you don't know how to generate one see the Support forum.

If you have a VP viewer like VPView (duh), could you also do me a favor and extract the bp2-15 mission file and send the text file to me via Pastebin? I need to make sure something hasn't gone wrong, because the mission file is quite explicit that
Spoiler:
the Jackknife ships will ONLY arrive once the Indus is precisely 8618 meters from the Carthage.

I'll get on it. 

Spoiler:
With regard to your 2nd post, I just tried it launching from the tech room and I got jackknife jumping in when I was about 10.5k out from the carthage, since I was behind the group at the time it seems to be coming in at the correct distance.  however this happened almost immediately after the initial 2 Tev corvettes attacked (I still have tons of trouble making the leander jump away, it never seems too, even when all it's main beams are gone), so something is definitely still screwy there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 02:56:55 pm

wtf

It sounds like you have a borked pilot file. That is not a bug we've ever seen.

I figured it was something specific to me, but I also figured it was best to bring it up since I'm not exactly a modder and could be wrong.

If you want me to provide anything data wise I'm happy to help out, nothing else popped up the entire campaign.

No, you did exactly the right thing. We need to sort this out!

Can you launch your FreeSpace 2 install using WiH as a mod and then post the debug log? If you don't know how to generate one see the Support forum.

If you have a VP viewer like VPView (duh), could you also do me a favor and extract the bp2-15 mission file and send the text file to me via Pastebin? I need to make sure something hasn't gone wrong, because the mission file is quite explicit that
Spoiler:
the Jackknife ships will ONLY arrive once the Indus is precisely 8618 meters from the Carthage.

I'll get on it. 

Spoiler:
With regard to your 2nd post, I just tried it launching from the tech room and I got jackknife jumping in when I was about 10.5k out from the carthage, since I was behind the group at the time it seems to be coming in at the correct distance.  however this happened almost immediately after the initial 2 Tev corvettes attacked (I still have tons of trouble making the leander jump away, it never seems too, even when all it's main beams are gone), so something is definitely still screwy there.

Something is definitely screwy. Can you get a debug log up, please?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 08, 2010, 02:59:58 pm
Am currently running through the support forum trying to figure out exactly how to do that

edit: Updated with debug log.
Spoiler:
Complete with Jackknife arriving waaaay before the order goes out, and the ensuing charlie-foxtrot-

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 03:17:29 pm
Spoiler:
Mission where you save the Vasudan logistics vessel was masterful. First time ever that I had trouble pulling the trigger against enemies in any game. I don't think I fired a shot at all in the second half. Much more powerful than the airport level in MW2 in emotional shock, for what it's worth.

Wow, awesome, thanks.
Spoiler:
We were really worried about that one; I'm glad it paid off.


That dang bastard artillery frigate...I was gonna kill it if I had the ordinance to :<

I had problems shooting the Tevs to begin with...however, this mission is when I started shooting friendlies, attempting to kill however many I can without triggering traitor. :P
HINT: High damage missiles are good for this.

Which led me to...

Spoiler:
Attempting to kill the Elder shuttle on the moon and failing because it was invulnerable, but the suceeding in the next mission. Then I had a conversation with a dead person, and then someone said something about stealth fighters that never appear, and nothing happens for the rest of the mission.

I may have just broken a mission with my (sucessful) traitorous attempts!
In my defense the my supar secret was about to be busted. :nervous:

I'm just gonna replay the mission and not do anything that is obviously not intended for me to do, but a heads up anyway :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Tantalus53 on August 08, 2010, 03:36:45 pm
War In Heaven...

Spoiler:
When I just joined HLP, heard about and played inferno, i was waiting patiently for Inf. SCP. I was disappointed. When I heard it was finally released, I had my faith restored in Freespace. That big sequels /were/ possible.

Ill admit i had a bit of Sequel syndrome when i first started, figured it was gonna be on the over-glorified side, like i did with Halo 2.. I had unreal expectations of this mod. Then it went around and /fulfilled/ these unreal expectations. And even surpassed them. Darius and Co. you all have done it again. Though If you ask me, I personally prefer AoA (More or less, I only say that cause I cant admit that I enjoy killing Tev Pilots >>... GTVA FOR THE WIN.) Im at one of the best missions though, says Genny B and Nighteyes, so ill probably change my mind. DOESNT MEAN I LIKE UEF THOUGH. Cant wait for Part 2.

I<3 Admiral Steel, by the way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 03:45:14 pm
Ok, now my stupid wingmen went ahead and nuke the Norfolk when I gave them all the order to friggin ignore it, after smacking into me in a retarded series of collisions for the past five minutes and preventing my rearm :/
Thank you for failing the mission for me, worthless bozos.

Gotta do this one again too and pray they don't get any stupid ideas :/
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IronBeer on August 08, 2010, 03:45:24 pm
This is the finest FSO campaign I've ever seen. Full stop. No quantification.

Now I'm just dying for part II... "join the club", I suppose.

Anyhow, specifics:
Spoiler:
Oh, man. Where to start? Meh, no specific order needed.

1. The characters. This is what made AoA good, and it's what makes WiH legendary. I felt for pretty much everybody involved, except the GTVA asshole COs. Them I wanted to see pasted, but that can't a unique feeling. Speaking of which- during the last few moments of the "Delenda est", as the UEF battlegroup is getting slaughtered, I was legitimately upset, venting my frustration and impotent rage on the forces attempting to block the Indus' escape. No game, and only a few works of fiction, have ever stirred that kind of response before.

Laporte I found especially compelling, not particularly because of her sensitivity to "Ken" (and thus her existence as the protagonist), but because her personality (and transformation) were believable. Beginning with the first mission, her thoughts when scoring a kill: "Sorry mate, better you than me", "Hey, this is kinda fun"; then everything else from that point forward (the diary entries, the things she says during missions and briefings) created somebody that I could almost cross paths with in reality.

To degrees consistent with their significance to the story, all the other characters were done just as well, and to expound on each would take way too long.
Moving on...

2. The writing. Brutal. The plot to me was nightmarish, especially when emotional investment with the characters was so well done. There were two moments in particular, when rescuing the Vasudan logistics ship, and the first part of "Delenda Est", where the writers actually allow us to feel a glimmer of hope. Which is promptly shat upon, viciously in the latter case. I'ma go out on a limb and guess that General Battua had a pretty big hand in crafting the plot. Regardless of whether that's right or wrong, major kudos to whoever developed the plot- it was pretty much unpredictable, and really jerks the player around by their heartstrings.

3. The music. This deserves its own section. AoA's soundtrack impressed me so much that I include it on my everyday iPod lineup, and WiH will have that honor as well. Once I get around to extracting the thing, that is. One case that particularly stands out in my mind was the use of Apocalyptica's "How Far" during the SOC fight. Ditto with the use of "Lacrimosa". Don't get me wrong- all the music was spot-on, and kick-ass.

4. The Graphics. Beautiful to a T. Granted, a lot of that was probably the 3.6.12 MediaVPs- hats off to the MediaVPs staff, by the way- but all the Blueplanet-specific assets were all amazing, especially the Luna sequence. Atmospheric flight, here we come?

5. The Ugly. I want to say this campaign was perfect. I really do. But even legends can have flaws, and here are a couple that stood out for me. The dogfight at the conclusion of "Intervention" kicked my ass several times. Figured out how to win eventually (the trick is to not get shot), but the process frayed my patience a bit too much to be fun. But don't get hung up on this complaint- maybe I just kinda suck with the Kentauroi,

The only other "low" was the closing cinematic following "Sunglare". I could hear my computer crying, and it maintained playable framerates throughout the rest of the campaign, even the soon-to-be-storied "Delenda Est". On the other hand, the graphical assets are due for optimization, so this prolly won't stay a problem. By the way, do all the scenes in that closing cinematic exist in one "mission zone"?
Whew. Congratulations, Blueplanet team. I think you lot have made history.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 08, 2010, 03:57:13 pm
This is the finest FSO campaign I've ever seen. Full stop. No quantification.

Now I'm just dying for part II... "join the club", I suppose.

Anyhow, specifics:
Spoiler:

4. The Graphics. Beautiful to a T. Granted, a lot of that was probably the 3.6.12 MediaVPs- hats off to the MediaVPs staff, by the way- but all the Blueplanet-specific assets were all amazing, especially the Luna sequence. Atmospheric flight, here we come?

Spoiler:
Truth is, many of the more spectacular mediavps effects, like the bomb flash and the burning debris, were developed partially for BP first, and then donated to the mediavps

Quote
Spoiler:
By the way, do all the scenes in that closing cinematic exist in one "mission zone"?

Spoiler:
There is actually no other way to do it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: [Wolf]Maverick on August 08, 2010, 04:05:17 pm
Just finished it.
Great Job from the whole team. Truely a masterpiece, that surpass AoA. Can't wait for Part 2
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IronBeer on August 08, 2010, 04:18:23 pm
Spoiler:
There is actually no other way to do it!
@The E: Guessed as much, just wanted to be sure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 04:19:48 pm
Ok, now my stupid wingmen went ahead and nuke the Norfolk when I gave them all the order to friggin ignore it, after smacking into me in a retarded series of collisions for the past five minutes and preventing my rearm :/
Thank you for failing the mission for me, worthless bozos.

Gotta do this one again too and pray they don't get any stupid ideas :/

I'm trying to figure out how to improve this behavior (the collision issue is really annoying, but I mean the Norfolk nuking) and it bemuses me that you somehow managed to get this to happen, because as soon as the Norfolk is disarmed/disabled, they:

a) get their goals cleared
b) the Norfolk is IFFed to Unknown
c) the Norfolk is protected

I've never seen it occur!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 04:35:51 pm
It was disabled but it didn't IFF change to unknown.
It was hostile and they just all swarmed it with Gattlers.

Also, I suspect this is an issue on my end, but...90% of the campaign has no music. At all. The only time there was music was the mission above the moon (the one where you do nothing but fly in a straight line)...

I'm pretty sure its just something with FSO or OpenAL on my end since I get no sounds anyway (even on retail!) with 3.6.12 builds, so I'm on 3.6.13 just to be able to hear anything.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 04:37:25 pm
It was disabled but it didn't IFF change to unknown.
It was hostile and they just all swarmed it with Gattlers.

Also, I suspect this is an issue on my end, but...90% of the campaign has no music. At all. The only time there was music was the mission above the moon (the one where you do nothing but fly in a straight line)

:lol:

Your install is le borked. Get a debug log up pronto!

As a fix for the nuke issue I'm gonna armor the Norfolk a little.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 04:38:12 pm
I've tried debug it happens with retail. (not no music, but no interface/afterburner sounds)
I didn't see anything suspicious.

And yay! You used my dark Orion textures for the Carthage!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 04:39:15 pm
I've tried debug it happens with retail. (not no music, but no interface/afterburner sounds)

Get a debug log up pronto!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 08, 2010, 04:41:33 pm
One thing. If you encounter that "missing music" bug, quit the game and restart.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 04:42:02 pm
One thing. If you encounter that "missing music" bug, quit the game and restart.

That fixes it.
What causes it? O_o
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 08, 2010, 04:45:21 pm
Some bug in the sound code that hasn't been tracked down yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 05:44:41 pm
Ah, well I finished it.

Now that I'm done I can actually make an actual review.

Spoiler:
It was good. Not "go tell your grandkids" good like AoA, but solid, and recommended. For me, it didn't really live up to all its hype.
It didn't leave me going "holy crap, holy crap, that was awesome, I'm going to tell EVERYONE!" at the end like AoA did, but it did leave me thinking.

The characters, I felt were a lot less identifiable with than in AoA. Most specifically the main character. I could empathize with Sam, but Noemi for me felt...detached and her beliefs were so different. It was certainly interesting watching her realize herself, but I never really felt right flying as her. Perhaps its just because I never got to see what happened in Sol in the BP verse, but got to see the events of FS2. That made me far more attached to the GTVA than the UEF. Sure, the UEF are the victims of this war, but if they knew what was good for them they would stand down. If they can't even take on four GTVA destroyers in their home system, they'll never survive a Shivan incursion.

The plot was fairly slow for the first act, which consisted primarily of escort missions of one variety or another, even "Darkest Hour" and the attack on the GTD Meridian didn't feel very intense (mostly because my wingmen just blew everything to bits without me even doing anything). Perhaps it wasn't meant to be played on Easy/Medium but rather on Insane (or maybe it was the lack of intense music cause of the sound glitch that I didn't know about). It all changes in the second act, though. "Delenda Est" was masterful, if not cripplingly frustrating, seeing as it's so effing difficult to save the Katana and Altan Orde from the Deimos, only to have them be gutted by the Imperieuse anyway. I would have to admit, though, that seeing the GTVA the badass mofo Steele lay the smackdown on the UEF was satisfying, yet saddening at the same time (hearing all the "goodbyes" and all).

Shame FSO's sound code is glitchy and I played 80% of the campaign without music (and without knowing it) :( :( :(. The pieces I did hear were superb. Even without music though, the missions were designed well enough to make me think that it might have been intentional, just to...make the mood eerie yet solemn (until I realized EVERYTHING had no music including the mainhall). I really should play it again with music.

The graphics were great, though a bit lag-inducing :P
It was...interesting seeing mutant versions of the Kadmos, Tane, Morana, and Liberty flying around as civilian ships.

All in all, I don't think I have any real qualms about the campaign, there was nothing wrong with it, just that I would have preferred it be done from the GTVA perspective instead, but that would be a completely different story altogether. :P

It certainly did show me how hard it is to fight against what you believe in...even in a game. The backstory was just too well done and polarized me far to much for me to truly enjoy flying for the UEF. XD The GTVA spent the whole campaign asserting its badassery, so I guess I'm happy with that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 08, 2010, 05:55:13 pm
Finished WiH today. Took me 3 days. So here's my honest review (Spoilers may be included, read at your own risk)

My pc didn't had too much trouble with the visual goodies so yeah, WiH is a sight to behold. You wouldn't guess the game is 10+ years old if you play WiH.
The writing was really well done, Battuta showed his skills there. At times though, a bit too much. :p long logs and briefings makes WiH feel more like a novel then a game at times. I mean, the log entry inbetween the mission
Spoiler:
where you lure the Carthage and then scramble to follow it
was a bit of a flowbreaker.

The characters are realistically written, felt kinda Battlestar galactica like in atmosphere. Though I personally couldn't really care too much about them, they are realistic but not really 'likeable'. But hey, perhaps thats just me. I just personally start to lose interest rather fast when a lot of time is devoted to how persons feel and the state of their emotional health etc. (And really, I just hope
Spoiler:
simms dies for good so the lesbian subtones will stop...
)
Best character of the game is Seele. Kicking ass in the name of the GTVA, I salute you dear sir o7

In terms of Fredding the missions are all solid and well done ('cept for the last mission, which was impossible to complete without cheating. Even when I turned invincible and fully focused on taking out beam cannons, the Katana nearly died), the checkpoint system works beautifully. The skip dialouge parts didn't seemed to do much for me though.
When I think back, a few missions really spring to mind:
Spoiler:
the one with the dialouge tree (I felt kinda quilty going through that one only once, knowing how much effort it takes to fred that one) the one with the ejected gaian dude/chick/hostage situation, the missions where you face several pilots with nicknames and the cease fire over the vasudan ship (Which was quite a masterpiece of writing I might add, I too didn't liked shooting anyone in that mission.)
The only rotten apple was the last mission.  :ick:

Gameplay wise though, I was less enthusiastic about WiH. I really felt that so much time was spend on military tactics, military language and 'realistic' combat that the WiH team forgot that this is... a game? Several times in Act 1 I felt like I was just a useless presence on a field of cool looking battleships doing their thing without me being able to influence anything. "Why bother going after that fighter? It won't be a threat to that capship with its endless flak doom cannons anyway. Oh hey, bombers! Something relevant to kill!". I felt I was just there to witness a story being told. The GTVA is kicking ass (Hell yeah!) and the buntu's are a bunch of stumbling fools in comparison. And you are just there... looking at it happen. The first few missions felt kinda disjointed too (little relevance to each other) Act 2 was better in this regard, on occasion I actually had to do things (though it was often fine to let your team mates do the killing too) and it finally felt like I had to 'play' the game when the Uriel gunship became available. The missions started becoming 'chained together' too, instead of the "Escort this, Go here, Do this" of act 1.
Perhaps I was expecting too much Vassago Dirge level of 'holy **** wow' moments. I feel like I fell victim to 'overhype' for this campaign :(

I was honestly disappointed with the player selectable weapons (and how little info was being provided about what they do in the weapon loadout). A high RoF dakka gun, a slow RoF energy gun, an anti subsystem primary for the first part of the game. Along with the default dumbfire, aspect and swarm missiles. To be honest, I expected some more creativity there. I hardly felt it mattered what weapons I brought with me. (An other case of too much focus on awesome capship weaponry?) I actually felt a feeling of joy when I got to fly the GTVA stuff in that one mission.

The music was a bit of a hit or miss at times. Like, I was completely getting pumped up when the track in the first mission started playing... but then after those first few fighters it just promptly ceased... That was such a turn off  :p  An other case was the music used when you fly
Spoiler:
over the moonbase.
It felt like victory music but... all you did was fly and talk. Yet in several cutscenes and other cases the usage of music was spot on and plain epic.

In conclusion: WiH is a really good, polished campaign, that put its focus a tad too much on military tactics and capital ships (and imho, a bit too much on the emotions of the characters) and seems to forget at times at it is a game instead of a semi-interactive novel.
Here's hoping that for Act 3 and 4 the WiH team will focus some more on the gameplay and less on trival things like the distance of the earth from the moon and the position of the sun :p

Also, as im typing this, I see Droid803 posted a review too and I'm glad to see he agrees with me on what a badass Seele is and how satisfying it was to see him kick UEF ass :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 05:58:29 pm
/me agrees with Spoon

He probably said it better than I did.

I do have to add that the VLS torpedoes on the Karuna are awesome.
I have a thing for the Vagyr battlecruiser, see, and I'd love to see something that mounts like a rack of 10 of them along the op of the spine :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 08, 2010, 06:17:15 pm
I have now finished the campaign.  Review is as follows:

Firstly, generalities.

I was immensely impressed at the quality of the campaign at the end of Act I.  By the end of the campaign, I was absolutely blown away by the depth and quality presented.  I could feel a connection with the character as she plunged into the horrors of war, watched treasured friends die around her, struggling with the morality of an ever shifting conflict that shakes her to her soul and back again.  I could fairly taste the desperation as the UEF suffered blow after blow after blow, and feel the burning fury of pilots who had lost everything but themselves, and sometimes even that.  

Beyond the emotional connection to the protagonists, the combat sequences were masterfully executed, exhibiting wonderful, if challenging, balance, believable chatter, unique objectives, and enough recurring characters and vessels to lend a sense of solidity to the gameplay and overarching storyline.

The vast new and improved aresenal of both the UEF and GT(V)A leads to a varied and interesting combat dynamic, not altogether unlike an amazingly beautiful game of rock/paper/scissors carried out instead by kilotons of nuclear fury, shattering reports and impacts of ballistic cannons, and the harshly concentrated death and destruction of high-yield energy weapons.  Space superiority fighters are exactly what it says on the tin, Interceptors shoot down bombers, bombers kill capships, and capships kill everything smaller than them, up to and including other capships.  The way the player moves from flying the Uhlan SSF to the Interceptor fighter to the gunship is carried out in a believable way, much more so than the retail Freespace 2 campaign, where pilots are seemingly transferred between squadrons and combat roles at the tip of a hat.  There are only very few nearly useless weapons, while nearly everything else finds a decent use in different situations.  Granted, there are some stupidly good weapons, but those are used little enough, or are frequently unsuited the objective at hand, making their exceptional quality as weapons slightly less noticeable.

There were scant few bugs, and only one thing dampened my enjoyment of the game as a whole: the Karuna.  I am fully aware that the BP team is already trying to fix that, but everytime a Karuna enters the field, it pulls the rug out from under the framerate, making escort missions hellaciously irritating in practice, if not in theory.  Perhaps being forced to use a control scheme I am unfamiliar with exacerbated the problem, but it exists nonetheless.  

The music used was completely appropriate, a wonderful mix of hopeful, hopeless, triumphant, exhilarated, furious, and mournful.  Music can make or break a campaign, and, as in the vein of Age of Aquarius, the music for this campaign doesn't merely not break, or even make the campaign; it elevates the campaign on a gilded pedestal of awesomeness.

I have to leave for the moment, but I'll write the rest of this when I get back and edit this post.

EDIT:  1000th POST!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thorbin on August 08, 2010, 06:33:31 pm
Thanks again for your help in troubleshooting my Freespace 2 installation. Once I got WiH working, I almost couldn't stop. :yes: The missions were well crafted, and bring a growing sense of doom. I have to agree with the performance issues. Some of the larger battles turned my system into a slideshow a few times, but it is probably nothing a little fine tuning couldn't fix.
I also thought your selection in music was excellent. Your opening cutscene made good use of the music from the Star Trek trailer, and was there a piece from District 9 (that somber chanting music which would pop up when a mission went particularly bad)?
I look forward to part 2 with baited breath.  :hopping:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 08, 2010, 06:57:48 pm
Gameplay wise though, I was less enthusiastic about WiH. I really felt that so much time was spend on military tactics, military language and 'realistic' combat that the WiH team forgot that this is... a game? Several times in Act 1 I felt like I was just a useless presence on a field of cool looking battleships doing their thing without me being able to influence anything. "Why bother going after that fighter? It won't be a threat to that capship with its endless flak doom cannons anyway. Oh hey, bombers! Something relevant to kill!". I felt I was just there to witness a story being told.

You know, I'm surprised to hear this, because it's rather contradictory to what I thought about the first version. Combat in WiH version one was simple, clean, goal-oriented, classic FS. The player always had a purpose and it was clearly defined with pretty much one exception that was almost unnoticed because it was an in-mission cutscene. However they'd clearly worked on having things make sense from a strategy standpoint. (Well, sort of. I think the UEF was getting their ass kicked because they didn't really understand and that view seemed to surprise a few people.)

Of course I also believe that UEF flak at that stage was a lot less impressive. And it was pre-Fury AI, which from what you've said may have contributed to damaging your view by making the capitals much more impressive.

I was honestly disappointed with the player selectable weapons (and how little info was being provided about what they do in the weapon loadout). A high RoF dakka gun, a slow RoF energy gun, an anti subsystem primary for the first part of the game. Along with the default dumbfire, aspect and swarm missiles. To be honest, I expected some more creativity there. I hardly felt it mattered what weapons I brought with me. (An other case of too much focus on awesome capship weaponry?) I actually felt a feeling of joy when I got to fly the GTVA stuff in that one mission.

That, I know they were warned about.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 07:09:16 pm
Gameplay wise though, I was less enthusiastic about WiH. I really felt that so much time was spend on military tactics, military language and 'realistic' combat that the WiH team forgot that this is... a game? Several times in Act 1 I felt like I was just a useless presence on a field of cool looking battleships doing their thing without me being able to influence anything. "Why bother going after that fighter? It won't be a threat to that capship with its endless flak doom cannons anyway. Oh hey, bombers! Something relevant to kill!". I felt I was just there to witness a story being told.

You know, I'm surprised to hear this, because it's rather contradictory to what I thought about the first version. Combat in WiH version one was simple, clean, goal-oriented, classic FS. The player always had a purpose and it was clearly defined with pretty much one exception that was almost unnoticed because it was an in-mission cutscene. However they'd clearly worked on having things make sense from a strategy standpoint. (Well, sort of. I think the UEF was getting their ass kicked because they didn't really understand and that view seemed to surprise a few people.)

Of course I also believe that UEF flak at that stage was a lot less impressive. And it was pre-Fury AI, which from what you've said may have contributed to damaging your view by making the capitals much more impressive.

I was honestly disappointed with the player selectable weapons (and how little info was being provided about what they do in the weapon loadout). A high RoF dakka gun, a slow RoF energy gun, an anti subsystem primary for the first part of the game. Along with the default dumbfire, aspect and swarm missiles. To be honest, I expected some more creativity there. I hardly felt it mattered what weapons I brought with me. (An other case of too much focus on awesome capship weaponry?) I actually felt a feeling of joy when I got to fly the GTVA stuff in that one mission.

That, I know they were warned about.

Spoon's criticisms are rooted more in comparison with his own mod than FS2 retail. *shrug* But they're definitely things we're interested in improving, especially weapon diversity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 08, 2010, 07:18:41 pm
Spoon's criticisms are rooted more in comparison with his own mod than FS2 retail. *shrug* But they're definitely things we're interested in improving, especially weapon diversity.

No, I'm pretty sure he has an overall point. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 07:20:45 pm
Spoon's criticisms are rooted more in comparison with his own mod than FS2 retail. *shrug* But they're definitely things we're interested in improving, especially weapon diversity.

No, I'm pretty sure he has an overall point. :P

We'd like to improve weapon variety in R2; we cut several weapons from R2 that in retrospect maybe should have stayed there. But other points were simply consequences of our design decisions and are, as the saying goes, intended behavior.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 08, 2010, 07:29:00 pm
We'd like to improve weapon variety in R2; we cut several weapons from R2 that in retrospect maybe should have stayed there. But other points were simply consequences of our design decisions and are, as the saying goes, intended behavior.

I'm not saying that's wrong, but I am saying that your statement about "not differences from FS2 retail" are wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 07:29:51 pm
We'd like to improve weapon variety in R2; we cut several weapons from R2 that in retrospect maybe should have stayed there. But other points were simply consequences of our design decisions and are, as the saying goes, intended behavior.

I'm not saying that's wrong, but I am saying that your statement about "not differences from FS2 retail" are wrong.

Depending on the parsing you intend there, I don't recall making such a statement.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 07:37:14 pm
We'd like to improve weapon variety in R2; we cut several weapons from R2 that in retrospect maybe should have stayed there. But other points were simply consequences of our design decisions and are, as the saying goes, intended behavior.

I'm not saying that's wrong, but I am saying that your statement about "not differences from FS2 retail" are wrong.

Depending on the parsing you intend there, I don't recall making such a statement.

Aye, NGTM, he said that Spoon's comparisons were based more on his own mod than FS2, not entirely. Though I've no idea how true that is and will not get involved in this one beyond this scant contribution.

I finished the campaign, people have spoken more eloquently than I about it's pros and cons, though for me, really, I didn't really have any cons (Beyond Fed protagonists. Boo! Hiss! etc), my computer handled the detail excellently and the campaign was sheer poetry.

Loved it.

Also, 'The Blade Itself'  :yes: - Moar please.

Throw my voice behind "I want part 2 naow!"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dr. Pwnguin on August 08, 2010, 07:44:52 pm
Heh, did a second playthrough. :)

Spoiler:

Who thought of Mr. Cuddles? I didn't DIVE, DIVE, DIVE fast enough xD






Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thorbin on August 08, 2010, 07:55:28 pm
Spoiler:
What is the significance in the term 'Nagari' and where does it come from in real life? The only reference I found was it being a name for one of the written languages used in India.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 07:58:08 pm
Spoiler:
What is the significance in the term 'Nagari' and where does it come from in real life? The only reference I found was it being a name for one of the written languages used in India.
Spoiler:
Go to the tech room, select "Intelligence" and read the entry titled "Project Nagari". Essentially it's a naturally occurring phenomenon that allows certain individuals to communicate with Shivans (and Vishnans). ETAK artificially replicated this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 08, 2010, 08:02:21 pm
Certainly I admit, the player selectable weapons felt underwhelming to the stuff I grew used to in my own mod (Which has some rather over the top missiles and a wide set of primaries). Compared with retail FS2 the weapons in WiH do pretty well. (And no, please do not take this as a 'I think my mod is better then yours!' kinda thing (because its not intended as such). I only replied to this because Bats brought it up.)

Quote from: NGTM-1R
You know, I'm surprised to hear this, because it's rather contradictory to what I thought about the first version. Combat in WiH version one was simple, clean, goal-oriented, classic FS. The player always had a purpose and it was clearly defined with pretty much one exception that was almost unnoticed because it was an in-mission cutscene. However they'd clearly worked on having things make sense from a strategy standpoint. (Well, sort of. I think the UEF was getting their ass kicked because they didn't really understand and that view seemed to surprise a few people.)

Of course I also believe that UEF flak at that stage was a lot less impressive. And it was pre-Fury AI, which from what you've said may have contributed to damaging your view by making the capitals much more impressive.
(First version?  :confused:)
Well what I was trying to say was, Capships have such impressive Anti fighter screens. That lone enemy fighters don't mean a thing if you are escorting a capship.
True, most WiH missions had rather clear directives and most of the time I didn't had any problems understanding what was expected of me. When I wrote that bit, one mission was kinda stuck in my mind. In which I really had a moment of looking at big ships doing their things and events unfolding beyond my influence with a friendly capship spewing flak and a few scattered enemy fighters going about. I had a moment of "Why bother with the small fry?" back then. Because capships can handle themselves quite well in WiH. (In Retail, fighters can be quite dangerous because capships have such pathetic AA)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 08, 2010, 08:12:32 pm
NGTM-1R was part of the first Beta. The campaign underwent a rather massive change after that one (Or so the people who played both versions tell me; I was brought on the team only after it had concluded).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SuperCoolAl on August 08, 2010, 08:40:58 pm
You screwed with my head so much in this campaign. Well done :)

I say this is BETTER than AoA. I think this comes from the depth of a human war compared to a human v Shivan war. This was a fresh experience, the faction we play is significantly different than what we are used to. It was immensely fun to play, I liked all the characters and the community spirit among the squadmates. The FREDing was impeccable, the visual and aural scape as professional as you can get from a project like this.

I don't particularly like this GTVA, though. They definitely aren't the same GTVA as in FS2, they use too many 'dirty tricks' and attack civilians. And I don't feel like I understand the ultimate aim of the UEF in this war.
Spoiler:
They think the destruction of the Carthage will immediately turn public opinion in the GTVA against the war? Sounds pretty delusional.
Oh and please please please
Spoiler:
continue the romantic subplot! :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 08:47:10 pm
Certainly I admit, the player selectable weapons felt underwhelming to the stuff I grew used to in my own mod (Which has some rather over the top missiles and a wide set of primaries). Compared with retail FS2 the weapons in WiH do pretty well. (And no, please do not take this as a 'I think my mod is better then yours!' kinda thing (because its not intended as such). I only replied to this because Bats brought it up.)

Actually I think your mod is way better than WiH in that respect, and I will heap praise on Dawn for its creative and awesome gameplay elements.

We definitely want to open up the sandbox in R2, I think. I have a few non-standard elements in mind that I've talked with you about on IRC.

Quote
I had a moment of "Why bother with the small fry?" back then. Because capships can handle themselves quite well in WiH. (In Retail, fighters can be quite dangerous because capships have such pathetic AA)

Go play the m07 opening, or the 2v4 dogfight in The Intervention. Now consider that the AI levels on those fighters...aren't actually extraordinarily high.

Now think about some of those big battle missions with whole squadrons of fighters using that AI, and imagine what they'd be like without the Karunas to serve as a base of fire! Our whole concept with the Karuna was to expand the interaction between players and warships by creating a 'warship buddy' for fighter pilots that they could use as anti-Trebuchet cover and a place to run to when they were in trouble. (The fluff makes it specific that UEF fighter pilots are drilled heavily on working closely with their frigates, whereas the GTVA pilot corps has a problem with being trained to stand well clear due to the problem of beam friendly fire.)

So yes, Karunas eat fighters alive; but if they didn't you'd have a whole different kind of gameplay problem. It's not perfect, but it was the direction we chose to experiment in, and stuff like the opening dogfight in Aristeia attests to the fighters still being a fairly real threat.

Thus the excellent flak screen.

Also one of our design goals was to reduce the Alpha 1 Effect. Which I will admit does not always produce player-centric, agentic gameplay, which is a problem we worried about a lot during development.

I don't particularly like this GTVA, though. They definitely aren't the same GTVA as in FS2, they use too many 'dirty tricks' and attack civilians.

Well...consider that they feel they're fighting for the survival of all humanity. You can read up on their motivations on the techroom, but basically they believe that Ubuntu and the Federation that supports it are dangerous, delusional ideologies that will render mankind defenseless.

Thus the decision to adopt a total war stance against the Federation. (They're also a bit more desperate than the FS2 GTVA, coming off an 18-year depression that they survived only because of the unifying power of the dream of a return to Earth.)

You'll note they only attack civilians as collateral damage in the pursuit of war-critical targets, too.

Quote
And I don't feel like I understand the ultimate aim of the UEF in this war.
Spoiler:
They think the destruction of the Carthage will immediately turn public opinion in the GTVA against the war? Sounds pretty delusional.

Spoiler:
You can certainly accuse the 2nd and 3rd Fleet elements of the UEF Navy of optimism in that regard. More likely their aim was to get Admiral Steele relieved of command and yet another admiral shuttled in to get better results - the failure of Steele's risky tactics would have undercut his political backing. Think of the relief of the initial US commander in Iraq, or the Union generals in the US Civil War.

Also bear in mind that that plan didn't come from the Elders, it came from Netreba and Byrne.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cpt. Ritter on August 08, 2010, 08:58:29 pm
I troll mostly on these forums... but this release begs a post.

Simply put, Blue Planet was awesome on its own. I've played it probably more times than I've played retail FS2 now. In fact, its hard to play retail FS2 (even with the media vps) because blue planet is so much better.

I had high hopes for War in Heaven (simply because I knew it was going to be awesome from the get go) I was completely unprepared for what I just recently played through in more or less one sitting. I pay $50-60 for great games with great stories, that have development teams and costs something about 100 mil or more to make. (completely made up stat). War in Heaven is free. I would pay $50-60 for War in Heaven because it is that good. Heck, that doesn't even begin to describe it. War in Heaven defies any adjective I can attribute to compliment it. Story is wonderful, the ships are gorgeous, the fredding is near perfect, the missions themselves are exciting.

I was swept up in the tide of emotion. Fear, anger, understanding, calm, grief. Not many games can make that claim, few manage to do it so eloquently. Sufficient to say, War in Heaven is the best FS2 mod I have ever played. The team has outdone itself, seriously outdone itself. You guys have done what professional teams struggle to do. I'm still awe-struck by War in Heaven, and probably will still be for some time.

Fantastic work (understatement of the century)... but its really the only way to wrap up this post.

Title: lol
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:19:20 pm
Gameplay: 10
Graphics: 11
Use of extras: 10
weapons: 9 needs moar balance ie the Rapier used almost no energy for a heavy gun and the gattler needs a realistic gun sound (try the descent 2 Gauss sound)
Ships: 8 the fed ships were too far more powerful than the tevs'
Music: 9
Feeling: 10 \
Story: 10    /  This is the phucking Twilight Zone.


but this story REALLY needs some フリクリ
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 09:21:20 pm
I... uh... what did I just read  :wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:23:38 pm
I... uh... what did I just read  :wtf:

what i think, if you don't like how i think TOO BAD if you don't like what i think then SAY SOMETHING.
Title: Re: wtf?
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 09:25:18 pm
First of all, why do i get the impression that some of the crew are lesbians and that the Feds are 75% girls.

The cast of characters in the campaign is heavily skewed male.

Quote
WTF. second, whats up with the quantum 'sensitives' bit? quantum beings are nothing special, just get me a Sovereign with some quantum torps man, tear that **** up (Preemptive strike: don't give me that crap:'this isn't startrek, TREKIE' you've already fubar'd that with the 'alternate realities' bit). Sensitives? are you kiding me? OMG BREAK OUT THE TIN FOIL.

The Nagari Process is based on the FS1 intro.

Quote
but this time the Red Hand is actually the evil shivans military because they have grown so large in force and the shivans who remember the good ol' days are just holding the fort around Capella so the R-Hand doesn't get back in.

What?

Quote
wow, everyone dies and we have some fracking dues ex machina pop out of ****ING NOWHERE, really?

Wait are we playing the same...campaign?

Quote
oh and what about all of the good people of the GTVA?

The GTVA are the good guys. The UEF are the good guys. There are no bad guys. The GTVA is fighting for its values.

Quote
good ol' pilots Like DUCKTAPE (if you don't who i am talking about then you aren't a freespacer, LURK MOAR).

Mackie is from Derelict which is not canon to BP (though sort of alluded to), but Mackie's voice actor actually voices a UEF pilot.

Quote
The GTVA was build from the ground up, to stop the violence, the GTA was built so that if they DID encounter life they could handle the situation under a single entity and not have a bunch of different beliefs that would jeopardize interstellar relations. and who in the ****ing 'verse has the in-humanity to soil their home planet with their own kind who where strangled like animals.

The reason for the GTVA invasion is described at great length in the techroom. We flatter ourselves to think it's pretty convincing.

Quote
to sum it up: HOLLYWOOD. dude next time. lay off the cinema and sit with pencil and paper and DO IT YOURSELF and if you think you are doing well, DO IT AGAIN, Murphy's laws never fail.

I don't understand but whatever you're on I want some!

Quote
shouldn't a depression make them more grateful? the Great depression post WWI was worse and lasted longer. plus with more plants, why the **** did no one try to find more? seriously? they didn't lurk moar? wtf? what happened to the wild west spirit of taking up the most one could gather and taking a trip through the stars? (you have died of dysentery). what happens to that? I guess you don't live in America. or know anything about the old west. or there is no such thing as history class anymore.

Are they mushrooms? I never had much luck with mushrooms.  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 09:26:56 pm
I... uh... what did I just read  :wtf:

what i think, if you don't like how i think TOO BAD if you don't like what i think then SAY SOMETHING.

No, that wasn't what I was getting at. It was more to do with the haphazard way you set out your opinion. Sure, say something, but goddamn, make sure other people can understand you easily.

Or, like Battuta jokingly implied, we'll think illegal herbage is involved :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 09:29:57 pm
Isn't the "Red Hand" from Tides of Darkness?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:33:02 pm
@General Battuta

with the dues ex, i was NOT referencing to the silly campaign

thank you for clearing that up with the cast being girls bit.

on the last quote : "Cool story bro"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:34:01 pm
Isn't the "Red Hand" from Tides of Darkness?

yes it is dude i just said that
i prefer the Tides of Darkness take on the shivans. but this time the Red Hand is actually the evil shivans military because they have grown so large in force and the shivans who remember the good ol' days are just holding the fort around Capella so the R-Hand doesn't get back in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 09:34:58 pm
So uh what does it have to do with War in Heaven?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 09:37:54 pm
And where is there a deus ex machina...?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:42:47 pm
it just might have gone well together, as long as the red hand had officially declared that they were the main force of shivans and rightfully dropped the Red Hand tag now that they compose over 80% of all shivan territory, and mellowed down a bit after, but still pissed.

hey you know what, maybe its backwards and there is a small shivan sect who want the religious antics to end and think that this Great Counsel thing is a bunch of stuff and want it too end?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:43:32 pm
bah, nvm about the dues ex. it was a stupid observation
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 09:45:00 pm
it just might have gone well together, as long as the red hand had officially declared that they were the main force of shivans and rightfully dropped the Red Hand tag now that they compose over 80% of all shivan territory, and mellowed down a bit after, but still pissed.

hey you know what, maybe its backwards and there is a small shivan sect who want the religious antics to end and think that this Great Counsel thing is a bunch of stuff and want it too end?
This has nothing to do with Blue Planet. You are in the wrong place.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:45:04 pm
i give the story a 8.

edit:
@snail: fine, but i don't like the fact that there isn't at least one voob (veteran who acts crazy or stupid) to clear the atmosphere who doesn't die like a scrub, you need some comic relief, you need some フリクリ
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 09:45:23 pm
Guys guys I've updated the War in Heaven release post

(http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/bpheadersmall.jpg)
Blue Planet: War in Heaven
Part 1


"Preemptive strike: don't ask me to DO BETTER I suck at minor details"
"...Sensitives? are you kiding me? OMG BREAK OUT THE TIN FOIL...."
"...oh and what about all of the good people of the GTVA? what happened to the old values? What about all of the awesome good ol' pilots Like DUCKTAPE (if you don't who i am talking about then you aren't a freespacer, LURK MOAR). I firmly believe that High-Comm is filled with a bunch of Second-Incursion space jockey ****ers who just want earth under GTVA rule so they can put the victory on their retirement and their escapade is illegal by old GTA standards and that this ****ing article about illegitimate governments was only in case that earth was ruled by a bunch of ****ing..."
"...I don't feel like editing out my crap so:..."


FEATURES:
  • some of the crew are lesbians
  • have you been watching too much Hollywood? This is so typical Hollywood
  • I need a weapon...
  • dude next time. lay off the cinema and sit with pencil and paper and DO IT YOURSELF
  • kill all of the GTVA while using a bunch of philosophical **** to make excuses
  • What about all of the awesome good ol' pilots Like DUCKTAPE
  • a bunch of ****ing pansies who just frolic about like deer

Infamus, you are my new favorite person. Let's be buddies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: asyikarea51 on August 08, 2010, 09:48:29 pm
I really didn't know VLS was possible in FSO already like it did in X3. I always thought the missile would just fly, "up, up and away!!!!!" or worse. LOL

Someone said
Spoiler:
that they didn't feel like they were flying as the protagonist. I agree on this somewhat, but since I already take things at third-person perspective quite a bit you could say it simply hit me at a so-called "worse" level than it normally would, if such a level could actually be scaled since both sides of the scale to me are ambiguous. But maybe it helped me with review neutrality? I don't know so I'll just leave it at that I guess.

I should point out that her perfectly normal attitude with the bizarre ability to turn into a stone-cold killer is just... familiar... somewhere. Okay, maybe not at say, Hellstryker's level of familiarity who has a friend or so he said, but it still hit home to me somewhere.

*WTF's at Battuta's post*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 09:56:42 pm
@general battuta: HAH HAH HAH THATS TOO FUNNY!

Fine whatever everytime I say something everyone else just uses their position as a excuse to troll, instead of having constructive criticism, and yes most of my post is ****. I'm not a invalid
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 09:57:55 pm
@general battuta: HAH HAH HAH THATS TOO FUNNY!

Fine whatever everytime I say something everyone else just uses their position as a excuse to troll, instead of having constructive criticism, and yes most of my post is ****. I'm not a invalid

No dude, I actually think you're awesome. Welcome aboard.  ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 10:04:27 pm
@general battuta: HAH HAH HAH THATS TOO FUNNY!

Fine whatever everytime I say something everyone else just uses their position as a excuse to troll, instead of having constructive criticism, and yes most of my post is ****. I'm not a invalid
Can we be friends?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2010, 10:11:34 pm
Infamus,

A) I think your review is hilarious.

B) I can actually see where you got some of your points from.

Droid803:

Spoiler:
I could empathize with Sam, but Noemi for me felt...detached and her beliefs were so different. It was certainly interesting watching her realize herself, but I never really felt right flying as her.

That's actually the same way I feel. Well, in regards to the main character anyway. We're just, so, different! Yet, alike in some respects too.

Still, doesn't stop the campaign from being awesome. ;) (purely personal view, and not influenced by being a dev)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 10:12:57 pm
I didn't like Sam as much as Laporte.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 10:17:11 pm
I didn't like Sam as much as Laporte.

I'm rather torn, there were times where I found Sam to be a somewhat... one dimensional character (Maybe not the best way to put it, but it's 4am!), but generally an overall likeable chap, decent guy. Laporte was a much better written character, but... the viewpoint thing, that and she's vaguely psychopathic.

What really gets me though is
Spoiler:
Why we act as if the Vishnans are good guys. They're meddling bastards who should call off their brothers and stop messing with humanity. What gives them the bloody right? 'Destroy to preserve, you must choose one to survive'. How about we choose to try and reconcile the two peoples, not your arbitrary one or the other choice. The mission with the vasudan logistics  vessel shows that it's possible. God, I really hope the ending to the BP saga has us kicking the arse of the Vishnans Babylon 5 style (If you've watched that series, you'll get what I'm referencing)

Though I know it won't, that's just not even on the cards. It's simply a pipe dream.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 08, 2010, 10:20:48 pm
While we want to be really careful not to spoil anything, we can tell you this

1) We have the whole BP story mapped out from its beginning many billion years ago to the end of BP3. There is a bible with answers to all the mysteries.

2) We remain committed to examining every faction in the story ambiguously, including the Vishnans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 10:22:46 pm
While we want to be really careful not to spoil anything, we can tell you this

1) We have the whole BP story mapped out from its beginning many billion years ago to the end of BP3. There is a bible with answers to all the mysteries.

2) We remain committed to examining every faction in the story ambiguously, including the Vishnans.

Oh, I know, I've had private conversations with both you and The_E about the storyline. I know roughly where you going with that whole thing. It's just not exactly where I would take it.

Megaspoilers here guise, this is pretty much for Batts eyes only - actually, I won't post it, if Batts wants to hit me up for what I remember from the conversations on IRC, just PM me :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellstryker on August 08, 2010, 10:26:08 pm
[quote author=asyikarea51 link=topic=70746.msg1399971#msg1399971 date=128132210
Okay, maybe not at say, Hellstryker's level of familiarity who has a friend or so he said, but it still hit home to me somewhere.
[/quote]

Wasn't talking about Laporte, I was talking about Simms.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 10:29:10 pm
 :bump:

it might be good for Another Day.

but sure. i can help. i have a knack for placement and minor details if i am provided with something to go off of, but i would prefer to "be" one of the "new recruits" with a thing for antics and American Patriotism

oh yeah some good quotes:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/w/winston_churchill.html

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/g/george_s_patton.html

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/j/john_f_kennedy.html

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/r/ronald_reagan.html

The world is a fine place and worth the fighting for and I hate very much to leave it.
Ernest Hemingway

Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle.
Plato

To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Sun Tzu

Every Soldier worth his salt should be anti-war, but there are some things still worth fighting for.
I forgot

Ride on Shooting star! - you figure it out

edit: wow 7 posts before mine?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 08, 2010, 10:32:45 pm
What the--
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: asyikarea51 on August 08, 2010, 10:37:31 pm
@ Hellstryker

Sorry, I got confused then.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 08, 2010, 10:38:13 pm
FU- BBBBBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHA HAHAHHEHEHHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

did i forget to mention i am insane?

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 08, 2010, 10:39:29 pm
FU- BBBBBBBBBUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHA HAHAHHEHEHHAAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

did i forget to mention i am insane?

My dear chap, you didn't need to mention it  :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 08, 2010, 10:49:08 pm
I think that's readily apparent. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on August 08, 2010, 11:44:34 pm
Ok, now my stupid wingmen went ahead and nuke the Norfolk when I gave them all the order to friggin ignore it, after smacking into me in a retarded series of collisions for the past five minutes and preventing my rearm :/
Thank you for failing the mission for me, worthless bozos.

Gotta do this one again too and pray they don't get any stupid ideas :/

hahaha I can't stop laughting at your bad luck mate, I suffered the same stuff... but I'm well past it so... I'm sorry, it's funny :D

Spoiler:
want a kitty picture for those nerves? :P

Review:

Spoiler:
not sure if this requires a spoiler, but still..

Despite some frikking annoying missions (looking at you Deter....notrememberwhatwascalled Est), the campaign is well done, amazing stuff you got.
I'll be waiting for the next release, until then!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 09, 2010, 12:07:11 am
I don't know what Infamus is on (yet I'm pretty sure I seized some of it when I worked Customs :P) but I've yet to see any evidence of deus ex machina, the story is coherent and well-written, and I'd like to say an enormous THANK YOU to the team for introducing characters whose sexuality is not strictly and obviously heterosexual.  Having a female lead, let alone one who isn't stereotypical, is great.

Also, Laporte is a much better-rounded character than Bei - Bei felt to me like a whiny brat with a daddy complex, which made me want to play AoA as someone else entirely in several of the missions.  I definitely think the backstory, character development, and plot development is much more sophisticated and interesting in WiH.  I do a lot of reading, and the level of writing in this campaign is not pop-culture; it's essentially literary.  That's part of what makes it interesting - much in the same vein as Ransom's campaigns, the dialogue isn't forced and the plot is coherent and polished (which is part of why Sync and Transcend were such a joy to play).  A lot of the community modders suffer from serious over-dramatization and/or underwhelming sophistication in their writing; it's something we tried to avoid when reproducing Warzone (the first time around; I've no idea what Mobius has done recently :P) and you've done it very well here.

To those posting in this thread:   please, if you're going to post a long review of the campaign for the rest of us to read, do us a favour and edit for the following BEFORE posting:
1.  Spelling
2.  Grammar
3.  Paragraphs / Sentence structure
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 09, 2010, 12:21:45 am
Actually the 'daddy complex' that Bei had was what I really loved about the guy, I could relate to it. It felt like I was playing as someone close to myself when I played AoA, which is what made it such a real emotional 'journey' for me.

But that's just how I viewed it. Carry on, gents. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 12:32:01 am
Actually the 'daddy complex' that Bei had was what I really loved about the guy, I could relate to it. It felt like I was playing as someone close to myself when I played AoA, which is what made it such a real emotional 'journey' for me.

But that's just how I viewed it. Carry on, gents. :P

Well I really relate to Laporte because I have a lot of unresolved issues with how easy it's been for me to kill all these

...

look just PM me about it
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 09, 2010, 02:15:19 am
I think you must've misread my post somewhere...

I'm not making any statement about Laporte or any issues 'getting' her, Battuta.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: [Wolf]Maverick on August 09, 2010, 02:37:32 am
I think the best part of the story was the fact, that WiH showed that there is no good or evil in a civil war. War is pure horror, especially a civil war and even if many of the combatants need a moral excuse to get going, there is really no morale, no code of conduct. The Tevs learned that in the wars against the shivans and NTF and now the Earthlings learn the lesson too.
WiH perfectly shows, that there is no glory in war, only loss, death and despair and for me this is the perfect atmosphere for a campaign / game which deals with an intergalactic civil war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 09, 2010, 02:48:19 am
I think the best part of the story was the fact, that WiH showed that there is no good or evil in a civil war. War is pure horror, especially a civil war and even if many of the combatants need a moral excuse to get going, there is really no morale, no code of conduct. The Tevs learned that in the wars against the shivans and NTF and now the Earthlings learn the lesson too.
This. :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 03:01:12 am
I think you must've misread my post somewhere...

I'm not making any statement about Laporte or any issues 'getting' her, Battuta.

did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 09, 2010, 03:05:09 am
I love you guys! LOVE LOVE LOVE!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: K.d.R. on August 09, 2010, 04:39:59 am
i played it and i know i don't have any problems on my end, could be a corrupted installation, but this campaign is no where near as good as AoA, its full of bugs from what Ive got.

i have a few gripes with this Ubuntu god character and holy than thou attitude. i don't have tolerance for a religious figure without sounding insulting to what you may or may not believe in.  

the campaign until the Indus was plain boring and starts getting better.
the terrorists and the GTVA admiral, i like them, full or irony. i don't see the treachery or the emotions other see, but it's funny and well constructed, at least from what i can read, to that end i'm not getting any audio feeds, just a comm noise. one of the missions where Simms and you go for a patrol, every time her portrait comes up a momentary grey screen happens,  lucky it didn't happen shortly after or i'm sure i would of been slaughtered otherwise. Then there is the poorly constructed mission around Saturn, i had to restart that numerous times because there is no way i could shoot the beams down with general rank fighters attacking my craft. btw, the difficulty level was set on very easy so that tells you how overpowered that is, but the important thing is i got as far as i could to destroying the target and before the retreat, of course the ships you have to protect is always destroyed because of those beams from that other ship. before that it was a levy hitting one of your ships during it's jump taking both ships out stating i could of prevented it which was total BS.

i'm also getting the same problem everytime with the incoming transmission, the only way around it is to break into the debugger read what it says, press f2 and then esc and continue playing. that is annoying but manageable.

i'm gonna re-download bp2 again and see if i encounter the same problems.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 09, 2010, 04:46:47 am
BP: WiH does not have voice-acting, message beeps are all you're going to get. Voice-acting would take several years to complete.

However, WiH is not full of bugs. Quite the contrary. What bugs there are currently, are very minor. Let me list some of them from top off my head:
- Key-bindings in directives and such do not use player's actual keybindings. Easy fix and will be in the next update.
- Ships are taxing to system resources as they are not optimized for performance. This is very lengthy process and will be addressed slowly, but surely over time.
- Weapons in loadout screen have poor descriptions. This is an oversight because beta-testers never said a word about them.
- Few other very minor mission bugs that do not really affect missions, but will be fixed.

I'm sorry you find the campaign boring and so on, but we already knew that we're not going to please everyone with the direction and design we decided to go with.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: K.d.R. on August 09, 2010, 04:49:08 am
so i got a corrupted installation... great.

i wished these things came as one installation as an optional.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on August 09, 2010, 04:59:41 am
I'm several missions through now, and I have to say that, even though I'm only part way through, that this is a real masterpiece :)

One thing I did notice, though:
Spoiler:
In the mission where you attack the Meridian, you can order the Vilinus around. I believe that shouldn't happen?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 09, 2010, 05:00:09 am
Oops, haven't noticed that before!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: K.d.R. on August 09, 2010, 05:00:43 am
I'm sorry you find the campaign boring and so on, but we already knew that we're not going to please everyone with the direction and design we decided to go with.

i didn't say i found it ALL boring i said the part before the Indus :).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 09, 2010, 06:15:19 am
Quote from: General Battuta
Also one of our design goals was to reduce the Alpha 1 Effect. Which I will admit does not always produce player-centric, agentic gameplay, which is a problem we worried about a lot during development.
Well you succeeded quite well there. WiH really made me feel like 'just a small cog in a bigger warmachine' which worked with the story telling approach.  :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: OllieG on August 09, 2010, 07:37:23 am
This is an absolutely wonderful mod, one of the best narrative gaming experiences I've ever had - music, writing and story all very much on point. 

That said, I don't think I've been able to fully enjoy the experience because of the hardware requirements - certain ships (frigates mostly, but also some of the UEF fighters I think, it's hard to tell exactly) cause such a serious framerate drop that it makes the relatively difficult missions more or less impossible.  Having to turn the graphics all the way down seriously degrades the game play quality and some sections STILL slow down so much they're unplayable.  Now, I'm playing on a Macbook Pro so some of this is my fault (if I had a better computer this wouldn't be a problem I think), but I don't want to have to reduce the graphics to Tetris levels in order to pass each mission - especially missions so cinematic and grand in scope that they really demand drinking in ever detail. 

I don't know what people are worried about with the weapons btw, nailing a wing of Herc IIs with a slammer and watching all four go down in flames is awesome, and splashing an incoming bomber with a single huge burst from that kinetic weapon brought a huge smile to my face.  I just wish I could get targets in my sights with the framerate.

Spoiler:
I know people want to see big capital ship fights, but the two skirmish missions (the fight with the SOC wing and the dialogue mission where the raiders jump you) were some of the best in my opinion - they really personalized everyone involved, even the enemy pilots, and ratcheted up the emotional impact of the bigger battles where people were dying left and right.  There was more of a feeling of the "day to day" of this type of war.  I can't believe you made me kill Xinny and Zero, that was just...nasty.  Xinny's sign off line was especially heart-wrenching, not exactly sure why.  I did think it was great how their deaths corresponded to the fluff about the best GTVA pilots dying in their heavy fighters - both of them bought it because they couldn't turn fast enough and that long profile is a perfect target for dumbfires and guns.

If this campaign was voice acted and a little more polished you could put it in a box and sell it.  I'd buy.  I know it's a vast amount of dialogue and I'm not complaining.  Thanks for all your hard work!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gloriano on August 09, 2010, 08:17:00 am
Fantastic job guys really enjoyed the War in Heaven, missions were neat and everything else too. I just hope we don't need to wait the release 2 for 2 years  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 09, 2010, 09:09:36 am
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!
Spoiler:
I like how you actually had an event and debriefing for actually destroying the Carthage! Mr Cuddles was definitely challenging! (Not really, I cheated after I beat the campaign) Someone actually manage to destroy the Carthage and beat Mr Cuddles without cheating! There's a damn challenge!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 09, 2010, 09:34:21 am
Oh, finally.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 09, 2010, 10:03:33 am
Oh my f***. Blue planet massive battle. 2 fps.

Btw, I noticed in detail settings I had certain categories with a setting of 0 dots and 1 green gloved pointing hand. I'm assuming this means custom settings. I have no idea how to restore them, since I accidentally overwrote them with standard "dots" settings.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 09, 2010, 10:21:56 am
The Darkest Hour
Spoiler:
“I'm sorry Admiral, we did our best, but the Feds are putting up a fiercer fight than we expected. Drink one to us when you take Ea-” The video feed cuts out in a burst of static, and the bridge lapses into silence, broken only by a Comm officer who clears his throat nervously before breaking the hush.

“Omega code received, Admiral. We lost the Valerie.”

The tall man remains standing, staring at the blank screen on his console, his blue eyes unfathomable and hard beneath his steel grey hair as he absently nods an acknowledgement at the officer.

With a sudden jerk, he turns his head towards the Helm, “Helm, prepare to execute a jump to Rheza station's orbital slot, maybe we can turn the tide there.”

“Aye Aye sir,” the Sailing Master replies, preparing to execute the subspace jump with a professional ease complimented by a feverish intensity, a desire not to let down this implacable officer, more like a force of nature than a flag officer of the GTVA.

Admiral Steele glances at his plot again, a small, grim smile touching his lips.

Just something I wrote whilst eating my lunch, I haven't really checked it over all that much, so there are no doubt grammatical errors all over the place.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 10:37:49 am
Minor note: Steele is actually a bald black leader guy. At least in our minds.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 09, 2010, 11:03:20 am
Samuel L. Jackson? ;)

Or maybe Morgan Freeman?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starwolf1991 on August 09, 2010, 11:10:59 am
Darius and Blue Planet Team, may I offer my congratulations for this stunning masterpiece you have created. Masterpiece is prehaps the best word I can use to describe War In Heaven Part 1. :yes:

I swear I shed a tear at the end when.....well, you know what happened, it was soooo sad!. And another when the closing piece of music started to kick in.

Already looking forward to part 2. Can't wait!  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 09, 2010, 11:15:11 am
Minor note: Steele is actually a bald black leader guy. At least in our minds.

Ah well, that's how I pictured him. Asian-Caucasian parentage, perhaps. Though a Bald black guy would also work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 09, 2010, 11:16:52 am
Then there is the poorly constructed mission around Saturn, i had to restart that numerous times because there is no way i could shoot the beams down with general rank fighters attacking my craft. btw, the difficulty level was set on very easy so that tells you how overpowered that is, but the important thing is i got as far as i could to destroying the target and before the retreat, of course the ships you have to protect is always destroyed because of those beams from that other ship. before that it was a levy hitting one of your ships during it's jump taking both ships out stating i could of prevented it which was total BS.

sounds like my bug is popping up elsewhere :/
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 09, 2010, 11:25:58 am
Minor note: Steele is actually a bald black leader guy. At least in our minds.
That's one thing I noticed in WiH, little to no description on what characters look like. I only recall reading that simms has blond hair. But that's about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 11:27:05 am
Yeah, we wanted to supply pictures with the intel entries, but they're not done yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 09, 2010, 12:02:27 pm
Here's a thing - will we ever see the "First Battle of Neptune" single mission? Be nice to play the GTVA, even if just for a single mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 12:04:59 pm
I guess we will. I think Dilmah just has to go through it once more to make sure it works with the modpack as it is right now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 09, 2010, 12:10:24 pm
I guess we will. I think Dilmah just has to go through it once more to make sure it works with the modpack as it is right now.

Yayifications!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 12:12:41 pm
The Darkest Hour
Spoiler:
“I'm sorry Admiral, we did our best, but the Feds are putting up a fiercer fight than we expected. Drink one to us when you take Ea-” The video feed cuts out in a burst of static, and the bridge lapses into silence, broken only by a Comm officer who clears his throat nervously before breaking the hush.

“Omega code received, Admiral. We lost the Valerie.”

The tall man remains standing, staring at the blank screen on his console, his blue eyes unfathomable and hard beneath his steel grey hair as he absently nods an acknowledgement at the officer.

With a sudden jerk, he turns his head towards the Helm, “Helm, prepare to execute a jump to Rheza station's orbital slot, maybe we can turn the tide there.”

“Aye Aye sir,” the Sailing Master replies, preparing to execute the subspace jump with a professional ease complimented by a feverish intensity, a desire not to let down this implacable officer, more like a force of nature than a flag officer of the GTVA.

Admiral Steele glances at his plot again, a small, grim smile touching his lips.

Just something I wrote whilst eating my lunch, I haven't really checked it over all that much, so there are no doubt grammatical errors all over the place.

 :yes: :yes: :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: 23-down on August 09, 2010, 12:14:27 pm
Ok first I really wanna thank you for this amazing campaign or mod....

You guys are truly FS moddings best... I just played it through and every mission was really intence and hard!!!
Here and there I really had to use cheats for example in the mission where you started near an enemy flak frigate
To be forced to use cheats is pitty. Same situation like in 1 of the last missions with the Santanas in BP1.

The only things I could criticize here is the poor english.. I'm no native english speaker myself but I've found 100 of spelling errors - words on the wrong place (grammar issues maybe?) and that did it really hard for me to follow the entire story. I didn't had such problems with Blue Planet 1. Please recheck all briefings etc. For me many things seemed wrong. But maybe it's just me who's wrong. Maybe everything is just written in a strange english dialect I can't tell.

I also highly recommend to add voice acting inside the missions. Because I guess I just missed 75% of the radio signals.

A. They vanshied a lot to fast due to new signals.
B. During combat it's really hard to read and fight. I often had to press esc to read the more important things in peace.


Could someone tell me the exact story of this mod right here in spoilers? I really had big problems to unsterstand the plot. Normally I don't have such problems at all I can read english very good. But everything in this mod was really hard described like Oxford English. Or it was due to the fact that there were many issues like I said above. What is that with this Ubunto thing anyway? Space exploring people are some religious fanatics?

Another critical aspect:
Do you think that this campaign is realistic. (besides the fact that it is science fiction of course.)
I mean one Solar System against the entire GTVA and it's systems or at least the Terrans? Such a thing is unwinnable. Letting Earth Forces win the war in the following part2 of the campaign would be a disaster. Technically it's impossible. They lack in manpower, in ships, in supplies and most of the Sol fleets has allready been destroyed etc.

And like you mentioned it allready some models still require some work with their lods etc.. I have a high end computer , quad core good graphics card etc and yet it still lagged horrible sometimes. But I also had the advanced.vp enabled maybe without it.. It wouldn't have lagged not sure.

All in all it was still great playing it and I'm looking forward to play part2 when it's done.
Ps: I would love to see more of the ships we had in BP1. If I recall correct you didn't showed all of them in this campaign.

23-down
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 09, 2010, 12:21:41 pm
The Darkest Hour
Spoiler:
“I'm sorry Admiral, we did our best, but the Feds are putting up a fiercer fight than we expected. Drink one to us when you take Ea-” The video feed cuts out in a burst of static, and the bridge lapses into silence, broken only by a Comm officer who clears his throat nervously before breaking the hush.

“Omega code received, Admiral. We lost the Valerie.”

The tall man remains standing, staring at the blank screen on his console, his blue eyes unfathomable and hard beneath his steel grey hair as he absently nods an acknowledgement at the officer.

With a sudden jerk, he turns his head towards the Helm, “Helm, prepare to execute a jump to Rheza station's orbital slot, maybe we can turn the tide there.”

“Aye Aye sir,” the Sailing Master replies, preparing to execute the subspace jump with a professional ease complimented by a feverish intensity, a desire not to let down this implacable officer, more like a force of nature than a flag officer of the GTVA.

Admiral Steele glances at his plot again, a small, grim smile touching his lips.

Just something I wrote whilst eating my lunch, I haven't really checked it over all that much, so there are no doubt grammatical errors all over the place.

 :yes: :yes: :yes:


Thanks Battuta :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 12:24:34 pm
Ok first I really wanna thank you for this amazing campaign or mod....

You guys are truly FS moddings best... I just played it through and every mission was really intence and hard!!!
Here and there I really had to use cheats for example in the mission where you started near an enemy flak frigate
To be forced to use cheats is pitty. Same situation like in 1 of the last missions with the Santanas in BP1.

All missions are doable, even on insane, without using cheats.

Quote
The only things I could criticize here is the poor english.. I'm no native english speaker myself but I've found 100 of spelling errors - words on the wrong place (grammar issues maybe?) and that did it really hard for me to follow the entire story. I didn't had such problems with Blue Planet 1. Please recheck all briefings etc. For me many things seemed wrong. But maybe it's just me who's wrong. Maybe everything is just written in a strange english dialect I can't tell.

Could you elaborate on this with a few examples? Most of the team (including the head writers) are native speakers, and the rest of us has a pretty firm grasp of the english language (and failing that, our spell checkers), so any instance of these errors should be corrected.
Be aware, however, that we're using pilot slang quite heavily in a few places, and what may seem like an error can actually be intentional, just to emulate the way real combat pilots speak.

Quote
I also highly recommend to add voice acting inside the missions. Because I guess I just missed 75% of the radio signals.

A. They vanshied a lot to fast due to new signals.
B. During combat it's really hard to read and fight. I often had to press esc to read the more important things in peace.

We know. However, we were unwilling to delay the release for another year or so to get the voice acting done.

Quote
Could someone tell me the exact story of this mod right here in spoilers? I really had big problems to unsterstand the plot. Normally I don't have such problems at all I can read english very good. But everything in this mod was really hard described like Oxford English. Or it was due to the fact that there were many issues like I said above. What is that with this Ubunto thing anyway? Space exploring people are some religious fanatics?

There is a lot of backstory you probably missed found in the Techroom, I recommend you read that.

Quote
Another critical asspect:
Do you think that this campaign is realistic. (besides the fact that it is science fiction of course.)
I mean one Solar System against the entire GTVA and it's systems or at least the Terrans? Such a thing is unwinnable. Letting Earth Forces win the war in the following part2 of the campaign would be disaster. Technically it's impossible. They lack in manpower, in ships, in supplies and most of the Sol fleets has allready been destroyed etc.

In the BP universe, Earth and the colonies on Mars and Jupiter have about the same population as the entire GTVA combined. They also have the most extensive, most advanced infrastructure in known space. So yes, they do have a fighting chance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 12:25:44 pm
Ok first I really wanna thank you for this amazing campaign or mod....

Thank you!

Quote
The only things I could criticize here is the poor english.. I'm no native english speaker myself but I've found 100 of spelling errors - words on the wrong place (grammar issues maybe?)

Could you please pick them out? I think the problem may be that War in Heaven is written at a pretty high level. It's not very non-native-speaker friendly.

Quote
Another critical aspect:
Do you think that this campaign is realistic. (besides the fact that it is science fiction of course.)
I mean one Solar System against the entire GTVA and it's systems or at least the Terrans? Such a thing is unwinnable. Letting Earth Forces win the war in the following part2 of the campaign would be a disaster. Technically it's impossible. They lack in manpower, in ships, in supplies and most of the Sol fleets has allready been destroyed etc.

Actually, in FreeSpace Earth has a bigger industrial and population base than most (or all) of the rest of the human worlds combined. That doesn't necessarily translate into military success, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: 23-down on August 09, 2010, 12:31:15 pm
Allright then...

Then it's my poor understanding of english I suppose. It's still odd I never experienced such problems anywhere before.
However I really spotted some spelling issues here and there. I can't tell you right now where.. But in some briefings you mistyped words..

To give an unrelated example: The word "Birds" and you guys wrote "virbs".. Sometimes you mistyped letters twice in a word. Should I find these little issues again I will post them here.

I will check the Tech room right away.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 12:32:20 pm
Allright then...

Then it's my poor understanding of english I suppose. It's still odd I never experienced such problems anywhere before.
However I really spotted some spelling issues here and there. I can't tell you right now where.. But in some briefings you mistyped words..

To give an unrelated example: The word "Birds" and you guys wrote "virbs".. Sometimes you mistyped letters twice in a word. Should I find these little issues again I will post them here.

I will check the Tech room right away.

Whoa...that sounds really weird. Yeah, please let us know if you see things like that, as they could be indicators of some kind of technical problem.

Though just fyi, 'materiel' is a correct spelling.

I'm several missions through now, and I have to say that, even though I'm only part way through, that this is a real masterpiece :)

One thing I did notice, though:
Spoiler:
In the mission where you attack the Meridian, you can order the Vilinus around. I believe that shouldn't happen?

fix'd'd'd
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ZeroCooL on August 09, 2010, 12:41:50 pm
Hi I have a problem when I start the game telling me I have 705 errors also, when he started the mission and the game will let me on the desktop I missing something?

thanks
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 09, 2010, 12:41:59 pm
That was ****ing awesome!

However I noticed in one place that a mission objective was "Mission Goal Text"... although I don't remember which mission. That, and in one of the missions with dialog choices there was a moment where I was supposed to choose whether to engage or not, and no prompt telling me which numbers to press to do what. Ultimately I pressed 2 and it did what I wanted, though... not attacking.

What was the model for that derelict space station? It looked kind of like one of the Luna City models, but I couldn't tell because of the lighting.

Also,
Spoiler:
I eagerly await the opportunity to kick that Steele fellow's ass for what he did with the Vasudans... even though we've yet to face hostile Vasudans in the campaign. One way or another, that sonnova***** is gonna pay.  :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 12:45:11 pm
Hi I have a problem when I start the game telling me I have 705 errors also, when he started the mission and the game will let me on the desktop I missing something?

thanks

Go to the installation thread and make sure you've followed all the instructions there.

If that doesn't work, please generate and post a debug log. If you don't know how, see the troubleshooting forum.

Don't worry, we'll have it sorted out in a jiffy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 09, 2010, 12:45:25 pm
Quote
However I noticed in one place that a mission objective was "Mission Goal Text"... although I don't remember which mission. That, and in one of the missions with dialog choices there was a moment where I was supposed to choose whether to engage or not, and no prompt telling me which numbers to press to do what. Ultimately I pressed 2 and it did what I wanted, though... not attacking.

I can confirm the first one, since I saw it too, but can't remember the mission either.

As for the second, it's not a keyprompt.  Do what you feel like.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 09, 2010, 01:18:39 pm
Spoiler:
I eagerly await the opportunity to kick that Steele fellow's ass for what he did with the Vasudans... even though we've yet to face hostile Vasudans in the campaign. One way or another, that sonnova***** is gonna pay.  :mad:
He already anticipated you would react that way and has the perfect plan ready to deal with you.
Just as planned etc  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ION3 on August 09, 2010, 01:19:55 pm
Spoiler:
In the capship mission the turret selection by arrow keyes doesn't work for me. Pressing them nothing happens. Did I miss something or do you want the log?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 09, 2010, 01:29:13 pm
I never gave a review on "The Blade Itself"

The mission title is well put and the ship controls where well played, but the turret controls were lacking

1) as you may have noticed there is no way to tell your turrets to hold-fire, please add that. and also I see no difference between the Lock and Track modes: please explain.
2) instead having all of the guns automated, give the player direct control - as well as automated; make the mode selectable - over the main guns and missiles, to make it easier to hit something like a subsystem
*add 'semi-tracking' for manual guns, this should let the gun fire like a turret, but not being automated (Semi-tracking is a forward gun's ability to angle the shot slightly to lead a target or hit it from a angle with out actually facing it, even though you are using a forward pointing weapon), I don't think this has ever been done, however.
*it may seem stupid but it can be useful, and fun, then again it is hard enough to see what is going on
*OH! IDEA! this may take some time, but make it to where objects that you cannot see because of your ship's obscuring your view are highlighted in the appropriately colored wire-frame, to make things easier to see, and of course this is only for large ships.

oh, one last thing! fighter 3D cockpits please! (don't forget to make the Physical HUD transparent and remove the textures so its just a peice of Transparent-Aluminum unless your are IN cockpit view. yeah, the last mod i played with those, their textures where improperly coded but i can expect your to be much better.

if you guize can get the cap ship control out of beta, just think what could happen: AWESOME ;7

Spoiler:
who are Xinny and zero?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on August 09, 2010, 01:30:38 pm
So, I've been lurking these forums for... well actually years now... and finally WiH has put me over the edge and made me make an account, because I can't let this slide without reviewing it.

Genius, pure genius. To me personally, this is the best expansion of Freespace lore. Other takes on it are also good, often brilliant, but the Blue Planet take so far manages to balance out the pseudo-mysticism V built up around the Shivans with some ground-in-reality concepts, diluting it with wonderful pseudo-science and all makes sense so far.

To the campaign at hand:

Spoiler:
Story & overall feel:

Laporte was the most identifiable character of any campaign I played so far. This may not work for others as I have read already, but to me, her character arc was one I could relate to. The athmosphere and feel of the campaign together with sympathetic and believable characters like her and Simms (and also Steele in a way) made me so emotionally attached to everything, like works of fiction only seldom do.

When it comes to the battle of ideologies that seems to be raging even in these forums, I definetely side with the UEF more than with the GTVA - perhaps that also played a huge role in why I could really feel frustration and anger on every freighter lost, every capship sacrificed - and satisfaction for every little success.

While the Alpha 1 feel has been diluted, I never felt like a useless pawn, and the transcendant connection to the Shivans (I guess, I don't think those were the Vishnans talking with all the 'destroy to preserve' stuff) made me feel important and "chosen-oneish" enough. Rather than useless I felt like a necessary part of the greater machinery.

Talking of machinery, this campaign/mod - again more than many contemporary works of fiction - manages to show the harsh reality of war. In the way a work of fiction should - as an epic storyline of characters changing due to the influence of war. It shows that in war there is no moral high ground, there is no real glory, and you can't fight a war and still stick to morality. By that, not the GTVA nor the UEF are "evil", they just act by the necessities of war.

The focus on "real" strategy and plotting inside a war was a good thing to me. I was never too much a fan of the Alpha-1 "you will turn everything around single-handedly" feel. After all, there was a bit of that in here, too, in just the right dosage for my taste.

Steele is of course both awesome as a strategist, yet I personally was also compelled to hate him enough to reasonably put him into the "villain" category. Mainly the masterplan to alinate the Vasudans from the UEF made me both shake my fist at him and yet admire his grand scheme. His final trap was so masterfully implemented that I truly felt crushed. Defeated by myself more or less for even having the hope to maybe achieve a major victory against the GTVA there.

The use of music above all was perhaps what made this an "action-packed-thrillride" to quote every movie description ever made, yet this mod deserves it.

Gameplay -

Holy crap, this was hard... I played on medium, and I quickly realized that even a small mistake can cost you your life. Let a fighter behind you and one salvo can be enough to critically damage or sometimes even kill you. Dogfights are intense, and finally capships felt like they should feel (IMO) - a reasonable threat to fighters, instead of the sitting ducks I remember from retail.

The final mission took me forever, 20+ tries, and after 10+ I tuned down to easy and later even very easy. Especially frustrating to me was that I finally finished it once, came to the point where the tag appeared on your Beamblocker ship, and I accidentally was exactly in the line of fire of the green beam. The main reason it took so long though were performance issues. Dogfighting becomes very tedious when framerates drop and lag makes your aim nearly uncontrollable. Also I am curious on when exactly the beam overload event kicks in. Sometimes I managed to kill off every fighter of the last wave before it triggered, and sometimes it triggered almost immediately after they launched. Also the timing on when the second attack group warps in seemed a little sketchy/random to me at times - but never clearly broken like it happened elsewhere.

Besides that, the many fresh elements, dialogue choices, the customizable strike team against the corvette in one mission, the hostage situation, made clear this certainly wasn't just another FS2 campaign. All those options are also another reason I can't share the "you feel powerless to influence the outcome of missions" some seem to have got.

Besides the last mission, none felt frustrating enough for me to consider cheating, and I wouldn't call myself a very good pilot. But then again, I haven't had a chance to compare yet, as all my friends I tried bringing to FS2 were completely overwhelmed by the controls, as they were used to Freelancer as their only space game I guess.

Overall, I think this is better than most commercial games when it comes to mission design, story and characters. It has some minor flaws - performance issues and some bugs that are already being polished from what I got, so - kudos to you. To me you are awesome in many ways, including proving (again) that modders and hobbyists with a passion can sometimes even surpass standards set by the mainstream gaming industry.

Overall, better than AoA, better than everything else I played so far. To me it lived up to the hype.

Hm, pardon some minor language quirks that may appear above, I'm no native speaker, and my english tends to be over-stylized and complicated from what I'm being told, because I learned it mostly from literature and RPGs, later the internet, and not actual spoken english.

BTW: I hope this will eventually be VA'd, although I understand that this seems like an almost impossible task. It would just be a shame if it were never VA'd at all, as it would so greatly improve the game.

And I can't await Part 2.
Spoiler:
Damn those cliffhanger endings, especially when they mention AoA characters as possible major characters in part 2
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 09, 2010, 01:32:09 pm
who are Xinny and zero?

The pilots you fought in that one mission where some rogue GTVA pilots were trying to capture a transport.

Also, Alpha 3 and 4 in Into the Lion's Den.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 01:35:00 pm
*SNIP*

Hooray! Thank you so much.

And your English is great, no worries.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on August 09, 2010, 01:37:00 pm
Okay, that was awesome. Congrats to the Dev team for creating such a wonderful campaign. I know you've heard it before, but you've made my day.

Great story, great gameplay. Finally, I see some tactics being used, it's probably the first campaign in which, instead of swearing at capship behaviour, I praise it.

Also,
Spoiler:
HOLY **** WHEN DID FS2 GET INTERACTIVE DIALOGUES AND CHECKPOINTS ?! I WTFed hard at this at first, but loved it. cRPG elements in a space sim ? Hell yeah. Checkpoints, while they are a nice idea, are a bit borked. It only activates during the first playthrough, and usually my hull is at like 20% at this point (I almost always fail hard at first playthroughs :P) and I have to restart anyway :P

Oh, and too much text. Chatter during battles should be short, think about the poor players who have to hit F4 every minute or so to learn what's going on...

Spoiler:
Great job with creating atmosphere during all those missions. Losing both the frigates in Collateral Damage left me really angry. And then next mission you kick the Meridian's arse and I felt good, even though I support the GTVA.

Then I felt creeped out during this whole psychologist eval; seeing the anxiety and NGRI spike so high made me shiver. And the messages in those containers plus the comm node... I sense actions of epic proportions in the next Act !

The Darkest Hour was very chaotic, as it's supposed to be. No time to mess around and wonder what's going on, you just shot down bombs and bombers like mad and hope that the station will hold. I barely made it and felt proud that the station was still standing at the end.

And then comes What Binds Us. I really, really, really hoped that there would be something good coming from this war. A single act of cooperation. Then that frigate jumps in, and starts blowing the hell out of the Deimos while I'm trying to shout "WAIT YOU STUPID SONOFA...". Got me all emotional.

And finally Delenda Est. Really, it was going so well (though I did play this one and the previous mission on Very Easy). I really believed the Carthage was ours. And then that Tev destroyer appeared and crushed my hope.  Damn you, BP Team, for making me feel that way. Hell, you made me sympathise with the Feds, even though I began this campaign as a GTVA supporter.

Also, damn you for those cliffhangers !!! Almost like watching Battlestar Galactica again :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 09, 2010, 01:38:19 pm
who are Xinny and zero?

Also, Alpha 3 and 4 in Into the Lion's Den.

THAT'S WHAT I THOUGHT but then I figured they should be dead from old age by then.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 01:40:56 pm
Checkpoints, while they are a nice idea, are a bit borked. It only activates during the first playthrough, and usually my hull is at like 20% at this point (I almost always fail hard at first playthroughs :P) and I have to restart anyway :P[/spoiler]

Thank you for the review!

On the checkpoints issue - you're only notified of the checkpoint activation on your first playthrough, but you should be told that the checkpoint is available every time you restart the mission. Is this not happening? (It should occur on m10, m14 and m15; m01 is currently borked.)

Or are you saying that your later playthroughs didn't get stored when you reached the checkpoint again? Because they should be.

(BTW you can repair your hull with the support ship.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Madcat on August 09, 2010, 01:45:54 pm
First of all, a big THANK YOU to the whole team for all the effort you put into this!

I've finished my first playthrough today and it has been an amazing experience. I think that WiH really achieved a new level of quality for a mod: storytelling, immersion, graphics, music, sounds... it all just hit home for me.
I loved the attention to detail in all the tactical and strategical developments in the theatre, there must have been alot of thought put into it and it shows in the quality.
Had to change my playing style somewhat too, because I couldn't just go all merry banzai on a capship to take out some turrets on a whim, as the antifighter screen was quickly ripping me apart. So I had to learn to follow orders more closely (like, being told to stay away from them! :D ). Capships finally are REALLY scary things.

To the story and other stuff:
Spoiler:
I'm definitely not the most critical guy when it comes to characters and character development.
I noticed I could identify quite well with Laporte from the beginning, mainly as soon as she noticed that she actually likes to kill... as that's pretty much me in front of the computer while playing.  ;)
Fly around, kill stuff, try to complete the objectives and don't worry to much about shooting my own kind.
I have to say I bothed the Vasudan help mission on the first try, because when the Corvette arrived with the fighters, I was very close to them when they appeared and had no restraints to open fire... things got pretty ugly in the debriefing.  :P

I liked the parts where there are dialogue choices.
Am I the only one to call out the Gefs on the bluff and not take a hostage in the mission with the Nauticus? Seems to me like most others took that route...

Loved the part where you call in the strike package, it really felt like "WTF how do I operate this comm unit, never done it before, damnit the Corvette's closing in where's the entry with the heavy hitters ARGH!". Total immersion right there.

The overall story was outstanding in my opinion, and sometimes really had a gut-wrenching impact on me whenever we lost a ship, or what seemed to be a victory got turned around in a bad way. So, contrary to my above statement about usually flying around and having fun killing stuff, WiH really managed to showcase that war is not fun at all. Great job!

The graphics are amazing now, Freespace has never looked better... especially capship explosions are magnificient. I think that just now they finally look like they really should. Even from 8 clicks away the red flash shows that something really, really bad just happened.

I am happy to say that I didn't notice too many bugs and got through the missions quite well on Easy; which I always play on, so IMO the missions in WiH are balanced quite nicely. I actually got through Delenda Est on the first try. But that was one hell of a ride, and here again the armor repairing support ship has saved my life.
I got the problem with Gamma Wing circling around me and colliding with me all the time in the mission with the Norfolk, which was a slight nuisance as I couldn't select them in the comm menu and tell them to **** off when I wanted to rearm.  ;) But at least they didn't kill the Norfolk...

Yes, I had to press F4 many a time to catch up on the messages. No way around it when playing a mission for the first time.

The reverse thrust is a great idea, but I couldn't use it much because to press Z and the afterburner button on my joystick at the same time I need to let go of the stick. But one time it helped to get a fighter off my six and into my crosshairs... great fun!

All in all, definitely the best and most polished campaign I've played so far. Easily surpasses many commercial game releases... I've said it before, you guys rule beyond description!

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on August 09, 2010, 01:46:32 pm
Checkpoints, while they are a nice idea, are a bit borked. It only activates during the first playthrough, and usually my hull is at like 20% at this point (I almost always fail hard at first playthroughs :P) and I have to restart anyway :P[/spoiler]

Thank you for the review!

On the checkpoints issue - you're only notified of the checkpoint activation on your first playthrough, but you should be told that the checkpoint is available every time you restart the mission. Is this not happening? (It should occur on m10, m14 and m15; m01 is currently borked.)

Or are you saying that your later playthroughs didn't get stored when you reached the checkpoint again? Because they should be.

(BTW you can repair your hull with the support ship.)

I used the checkpoints in Missions 1 and 14. In both, it always reverted me to the first checkpoint ever made. So even though in Mission 14 I managed to disable the Deimos with 100% hull intact, only to get my PC crash due to overheating/performance issue (really, I'm looking forward to your assets being optimised, they are literally killing my PC. Then again, I'm playing at 1920x1080 with all details maxed :P). Each time I tried the checkpoint, I had 37% hull, like in the first playthrough of this mission.

Also, support ships repairing hull ? That didn't happen in any mission, and I did use the support ship whenever I could.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 09, 2010, 02:01:35 pm
@Vip, yes Support craft heal your ship to about 68/69% which is great, and you can do this UNLIMITED TIMES

@General Battuta, dude i had problems with the support ships, sometimes if i call them over they won't come; they confirm your order, the wait box says: "Busy" and then it disapears and the comm-box acts like I already called support, but this is not a major problem, getting the first one to leave and then calling another one fixes it.

Oh and if the the Feds have reverse ships, make some/all/new Tev ships have reverse thrust as well, oh and make them a bit tougher in the armor and maneuverability department, the USP Talon/Fang looking ship has no maneuverability yet it is an interceptor. (Heavy Fighter?) also the Nyx needs a tad more armor, just enough to make it heavy-fig worthy, not like a HercII or something like that but enough.

Edit: something to note, the graphics lag seems to be coming from the Centrifuges on the Frigates and stuff, oh and that is even at lowest possible graphics running at 1024x768x32 on a 512mb ddr2 ATI Radon X1650 and with a 2.6 core 2 duo overclocked at 2.74
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 09, 2010, 02:13:28 pm
I noticed that when flying the Nyx, the support ship didn't repaired my hull. I take it this was intentional? (Finished that mission with 1% hull :p )
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Madcat on August 09, 2010, 02:16:57 pm
I noticed that when flying the Nyx, the support ship didn't repaired my hull. I take it this was intentional? (Finished that mission with 1% hull :p )

I believe I remember reading somewhere that only the Fed ships have that kind of modular (?) armor which can be repaired by the support ship. So that should be correct.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 02:17:40 pm
Checkpoints, while they are a nice idea, are a bit borked. It only activates during the first playthrough, and usually my hull is at like 20% at this point (I almost always fail hard at first playthroughs :P) and I have to restart anyway :P[/spoiler]

Thank you for the review!

On the checkpoints issue - you're only notified of the checkpoint activation on your first playthrough, but you should be told that the checkpoint is available every time you restart the mission. Is this not happening? (It should occur on m10, m14 and m15; m01 is currently borked.)

Or are you saying that your later playthroughs didn't get stored when you reached the checkpoint again? Because they should be.

(BTW you can repair your hull with the support ship.)

I used the checkpoints in Missions 1 and 14. In both, it always reverted me to the first checkpoint ever made. So even though in Mission 14 I managed to disable the Deimos with 100% hull intact, only to get my PC crash due to overheating/performance issue (really, I'm looking forward to your assets being optimised, they are literally killing my PC. Then again, I'm playing at 1920x1080 with all details maxed :P). Each time I tried the checkpoint, I had 37% hull, like in the first playthrough of this mission.

Also, support ships repairing hull ? That didn't happen in any mission, and I did use the support ship whenever I could.

I'll check out the m14 checkpoint, it was inadequately tested. Could you post a debug log?
I noticed that when flying the Nyx, the support ship didn't repaired my hull. I take it this was intentional? (Finished that mission with 1% hull :p )

Yes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 09, 2010, 02:31:05 pm
Right *****es, it's half eight at night... I'm not in a pub, or with a woman. I'm in a freakin net cafe and have spent an hour and a half downloading this thing and it's pre-requisites....




I'm gonna be late home and this had better be worth it :p

I had to pay £3 for the honour too  :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on August 09, 2010, 02:34:46 pm

I'll check out the m14 checkpoint, it was inadequately tested. Could you post a debug log?


Does it have to be from the campaign, or can it be from the simulator as well ? Though I tried in the simulator, and it didn't have any checkpoints at all. And that mission crashed on me, once again. Too action heavy plus it's too freaking hot in this room, I should play such things in winter :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 02:49:59 pm

I'll check out the m14 checkpoint, it was inadequately tested. Could you post a debug log?


Does it have to be from the campaign, or can it be from the simulator as well ? Though I tried in the simulator, and it didn't have any checkpoints at all. And that mission crashed on me, once again. Too action heavy plus it's too freaking hot in this room, I should play such things in winter :P

Doesn't even have to be the mission - just boot up FS2 with War in Heaven selected. I just want to look at your install config.

Checkpoints won't work in the simulator.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 09, 2010, 02:52:33 pm
@General Battuta Incompatible is the right word man.

@Vip I was using a UEF ship, sry man
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 09, 2010, 03:07:27 pm
Code: [Select]
sounds.tbl(line 341:
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF: 0 T_flyby1.wav, 0, 0.75, ]  instead.

<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

How did this occur? I was pretty sure I followed all instructions carefully... :wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 09, 2010, 03:10:25 pm
Make sure all of your folders are "<main mod folder> --> files", not "<main mod folder> --> <folder of same name> --> files"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on August 09, 2010, 03:15:48 pm
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 11
  -fov .39
  -ogl_spec 80
  -spec_static .8
  -spec_point .6
  -spec_tube .4
  -ambient_factor 25
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -spec
  -no_emissive_light
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
Building file index...
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x2fa0cebd
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x2a530d55
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x1541da12
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe2219ccf
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7e75407b
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\Root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 403 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1905 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1892 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\' ... 17 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\Root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root 'h:\' ... 0 files
Found 32 roots and 20086 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Hardware' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

OpenAL: Restricting MAX_CHANNELS to 28 (default: 32)
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1920x1080 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer   : GeForce 9800 GT/PCI/SSE2
  OpenGL Version    : 3.3.0

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_NV_vertex_program3".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr) ...
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 4 (32)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  Shader Version: 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 1
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'radar-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-hdg.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-str.tbm' ...
loading animated cursor "cursor"
MediaVPs: Explosions script loaded!
MediaVPs: Flaming debris script loaded!
Ships.tbl is : VALID
Weapons.tbl is : VALID
cfile_init() took 1688
MVE: Buffer underun (First is normal)
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
Got event GS_EVENT_MAIN_MENU (0) in state GS_STATE_INITIAL_PLAYER_SELECT (37)
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Exit in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Pilot in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Continue in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Tech in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Option in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Campaign in main hall
Frame  0 too long!!: frametime = 0.272 (0.272)
Frame  0 too long!!: frametime = 0.334 (0.334)
Got event GS_EVENT_QUIT_GAME (5) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
Freeing all existing models...
... Log closed, Mon Aug 09 22:13:18 2010
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 03:26:55 pm
Code: [Select]
sounds.tbl(line 341:
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF: 0 T_flyby1.wav, 0, 0.75, ]  instead.

<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

How did this occur? I was pretty sure I followed all instructions carefully... :wtf:

I think you forgot to patch AoA up to the latest.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 09, 2010, 03:31:08 pm
I'm pretty sure I did it. :confused: My AoA Core VP has been created on August 5th, 2010. Is that the latest version?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on August 09, 2010, 03:34:07 pm
You missed a huge warning in red letters

NOTE: A new BP: AoA update  has been released, you must re-download BP: AoA Core, Visual 1 and Visual 2 if you downloaded them before August 7 2010. These AoA updates are required to play War in Heaven.

It's in the WiH release post
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mobius on August 09, 2010, 03:37:38 pm
Yep, I should have DLed it a third time. I've also noticed that I still had to extract all latest MVPs from their archives.

Meh, that's what stress does. :sigh:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 09, 2010, 03:44:57 pm
Ok, here's a bug/issue:

If you use a checkpoint, some objectives / directives are still listed as "incomplete"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 03:47:28 pm
Ok, here's a bug/issue:

If you use a checkpoint, some objectives / directives are still listed as "incomplete"

Point 'em out, I'll fix 'em.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 09, 2010, 03:50:25 pm
As much as I would like to replay the campaign right now, I've got homework to do. Hell, I shouldn't even be on HLP right now...

All I remember is it was like that in 1 or 2 missions featuring checkpoints. Regrettably, I didn't write it down as I noticed it... that would've killed immersion!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 04:05:05 pm
As much as I would like to replay the campaign right now, I've got homework to do. Hell, I shouldn't even be on HLP right now...

All I remember is it was like that in 1 or 2 missions featuring checkpoints. Regrettably, I didn't write it down as I noticed it... that would've killed immersion!

No surprise. Those checkpoints were implemented very late in development, right before release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 09, 2010, 04:32:22 pm
I'm getting these error messages:

Could Not Load in2_CommandBrief-mbf
<No Module>! Kfast System Call Ret
<No Module>! Wait For Single Object
<No Module>! <No Symbol>
<No Module>! <No Symbol>

Theres another thing too.  When I run War in Heaven, the first screen says that there are 66 errors.  :eek2:

Help please! :sigh:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 04:41:22 pm
I'm getting these error messages:

Could Not Load in2_CommandBrief-mbf
<No Module>! Kfast System Call Ret
<No Module>! Wait For Single Object
<No Module>! <No Symbol>
<No Module>! <No Symbol>

Theres another thing too.  When I run War in Heaven, the first screen says that there are 66 errors.  :eek2:

Help please! :sigh:

You didn't install quite right. Go to the release post, go over the checklist there and make sure everything's correct. Also make sure you've got 3.6.12 final selected in the launcher.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 09, 2010, 04:58:36 pm
:mad: :hopping: :mad2:

Whoever FREDded the Saturn Carthage mission is, I'm sure, quite proud to be included in that long list of moronic imbecile FREDders who think a hard mission is a good one. You should go see a FREDerapist for your balancing issues. Oh and the trick you used that I'm sure you think was oh so cute, using an end-mission SEXP so I'm never presented with the skip-mission dialog? Yeah, I'd like to force-feed you your own mousepad right now.

Time for a little www.freespace2.com... I was really hoping, having played most of the campaign on Hard so far, that I wouldn't have to do this, but I can't pass that mission even on very easy.

Gorrammit I still love the writing but I wish FREDders wouldn't pull these little stunts.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 05:00:48 pm
:mad: :hopping: :mad2:

Whoever FREDded the Saturn Carthage mission is, I'm sure, quite proud to be included in that long list of moronic imbecile FREDders who think a hard mission is a good one. You should go see a FREDerapist for your balancing issues.

Chill. It has checkpoints. Just use your Slammers and your wingmen.

The beam overload sequence has been made a little easier in SVN.

Quote
Oh and the trick you used that I'm sure you think was oh so cute, using an end-mission SEXP so I'm never presented with the skip-mission dialog? Yeah, I'd like to force-feed you your own mousepad right now.

Hrm, I actually never even thought of that.

Quote
Gorrammit I still love the writing but I wish FREDders wouldn't pull these little stunts.

God forbid the last mission put up a fight! (The only really unfair thing about it is the FPS raep caused by the Karunas.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 09, 2010, 05:09:49 pm
Support ships made vishnan beam noises when reloading primaries.  :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 09, 2010, 05:10:24 pm
Support ships made vishnan beam noises when reloading primaries.  :confused:
Noticed this too
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 05:21:37 pm
Support ships made vishnan beam noises when reloading primaries.  :confused:
Noticed this too

Code bug, Goober's fault.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 09, 2010, 05:21:48 pm


Chill. It has checkpoints. Just use your Slammers and your wingmen.

The beam overload sequence has been made a little easier in SVN.

God forbid the last mission put up a fight! (The only really unfair thing about it is the FPS raep caused by the Karunas.)

Any progress on figuring out the timing bug?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SuperCoolAl on August 09, 2010, 05:50:18 pm
My only problem with the last mission was

Spoiler:
the Altan Orde (I think it was called) would get absolutely shafted by corvettes, fighters, the Carthage, everything. Managed to keep it alive on 2% after a few tries, medium difficulty. You have to attack two corvettes (Delta wing are useless) while fighters swarm you and you really have to struggle to stay alive but also complete your beam disarming objective in a minute or less if it takes you time to get there. Sometimes you have too many directives active in this campaign it's difficult to know what to prioritise. Really glad you had the checkpoints!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 09, 2010, 05:50:52 pm
Quote
(The only really unfair thing about it is the FPS raep caused by the Karunas.)

Blargh... at one point I actually was playing in debug mode, and wondering why the frak I was getting 5 FPS. I only figured it out after I had a chance to look at my HUD and saw all the RAM allocation stuff in the upper right corner... :P

Yeah, I just beat it by filling my banks entirely with Slammers except one bank of Paveways, and using those on some beam cannons. (that was the hardest bit for me at least... I always lost one of the forward Karunas to beamspam. Or got pwned by flying into one :P). Excellent 'epilogue' mission (Sunglare), and very, very good credits soundtrack. Actually, all the BP music is invariably awesome.

(I did notice that your credits.tbl is the one from AoA, not WiH. Bug?)

I'll write a more detailed review in a few days, maybe after I get settled back at uni. For the moment, I'll only say that WiH was the single most atmospheric, compelling FS campaign I've played to date. Can't wait for more. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 05:54:48 pm


Chill. It has checkpoints. Just use your Slammers and your wingmen.

The beam overload sequence has been made a little easier in SVN.

God forbid the last mission put up a fight! (The only really unfair thing about it is the FPS raep caused by the Karunas.)

Any progress on figuring out the timing bug?

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

My only problem with the last mission was

Spoiler:
the Altan Orde (I think it was called) would get absolutely shafted by corvettes, fighters, the Carthage, everything. Managed to keep it alive on 2% after a few tries, medium difficulty. You have to attack two corvettes (Delta wing are useless) while fighters swarm you and you really have to struggle to stay alive but also complete your beam disarming objective in a minute or less if it takes you time to get there. Sometimes you have too many directives active in this campaign it's difficult to know what to prioritise. Really glad you had the checkpoints!

Your pleas have been answered, brave warrior! The next patch will see the active armor on the Altan Orde and Katana improved.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 05:56:01 pm
(I did notice that your credits.tbl is the one from AoA, not WiH. Bug?)

No, we tacked the BP2 credits on after the AoA credits.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 09, 2010, 06:05:49 pm
Ah, I see it now. Woot, I can find out where your awesome music comes from :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 06:06:47 pm
For those of you stuck on Delenda Est, what would you think about us patching in a helpful feature? It would track the number of times you started the mission via PPV, and when that count exceed six or seven, it would flash some kitten pictures at mission start.

Feedback please.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 09, 2010, 06:07:26 pm
i did a small adjustment
Vulcan/Maul: tech description, increased Vulcan RoF from 0.2 sec to 0.185 sec
Rapier: increased energy usage from 0.4 to 0.65 for balance (its a heavy gun)
Gattler: changed the sound so it doesn't sound like a plasma cannon (custom built) and gave it a very small trail as to it being a EM propelled weapon
UX Accelerator: tech description

(Don't worry its a VP; i love VP_MAKE) That's it! I hope you like it  :D

Edit:
Spoiler:
the Altan Orde (I think it was called) would get absolutely shafted by corvettes, fighters, the Carthage, everything. Managed to keep it alive on 2% after a few tries, medium difficulty. You have to attack two corvettes (Delta wing are useless) while fighters swarm you and you really have to struggle to stay alive but also complete your beam disarming objective in a minute or less if it takes you time to get there. Sometimes you have too many directives active in this campaign it's difficult to know what to prioritise. Really glad you had the checkpoints!

Your pleas have been answered, brave warrior! The next patch will see the active armor on the Altan Orde and Katana improved.

@General Battuta, yeah i just thought of that too, thanks man
i had the thing end up hanging on at 10 percent on EASY and NO bombs hit it, just maxims

EDIT: removed upload
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 06:27:34 pm
(Don't worry its a VP; i love VP_MAKE) That's it! I hope you like it  :D

Nice effort, but honestly? It's better if things like that are distributed without packing them in VPs. Makes it easier for us to see if you did it right.

Also, the fact that the UX is missing tech descriptions is not an oversight, while the weapon is pretty much finished, it's also not used in the main campaign, which is why we haven't written a description.
Also, vps built with VPMAKE do NOT follow the standard set for VP files. Just so you know, they are technically not guaranteed to work.

Oh, and the weapons tbl you included won't work, because you messed up the filename.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 06:32:56 pm
That said, thank you for the collaborative contribution - we'll definitely take a look at some of the suggested buffs/nerfs. I think some of them may be in order (Rapier energy use nerf, Vulcan ROF buff.) Scalpel's already been buffed on internal to serve as a combo shield breaker and disruptor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 09, 2010, 06:36:13 pm
@General Battuta, thx man

@The E, it doesn't matter if it is .tbm or .tbl they are the same thing, text files, either extension will work, i know these things

Also, what do you use to make VP's?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 06:37:40 pm
Maja (http://www.freespacemods.net/download.php?view.67), or cfilearchiver (which is a commandline-only tool).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 09, 2010, 06:44:25 pm
where can i get a copy of a VP version of 'cfileachiever'?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 06:50:03 pm
Attached to this post.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 09, 2010, 06:50:49 pm
Edit: I have tried to make a vp with VP MAKE Maja and cfilearchiver none of them work with BP for some reason, but if i set a primarylist in the mod.ini to the root (BPWiH) and splapp the data into, well... the data folder, it works just fine

Edit: here are the uncompressed files

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 09, 2010, 07:46:06 pm
Right. . . . . .
Spoiler:
you are SO lucky that I thoroughly enjoyed watching Steeles glorious crusade and getting impaled on shrapnel while having a nervous breakdown only to end up with a well-done tan. .  As i'm now four hours short of sleep. . . . . . .

 
Also I saw Kittens. . . . . . . And I hated them. :p
 
 
Edit- substituted quote tags for spoilers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 09, 2010, 07:56:36 pm
So... I flew THROUGH the spinny bit on a Karuna. I thought I was going to get owned when I saw it rotating towards my Uriel on full burn, but I clipped right through at the cost of ~40% hull integrity :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 09, 2010, 08:14:23 pm
Just had to say that the Capship mission/campaign is quite glorious and here's hoping there will be a few more of them in WiH2  :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 09, 2010, 08:19:36 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Tantalus53 on August 09, 2010, 08:30:30 pm
Spoiler:
Dear god, i hate all of you. Just when im playing, not just for the fun, but because I am /into/ the story, and I'm completely absorbed in it, (I locked my room door and told my five year old sister ide feed her to the bogeyman if she bugged me) you all hit me with a cliffhanger. I finally finished it, and everything made sense to me at the end. I felt involved. and being Pro GTVA I found myself Cheering when the Imperuse showed up like a god and blitzed every ship within spitting distance. The Yangtzee... Ive never liked the UEF, but i was sad when it got blown away... Same with Simms' illness. You've taken a Sci-Fi space combat sim and made it into a dramatic, movie-esque peice of pure artwork. And I almost forgot about the Bei's, nice to hear from them. I bow to you all, and Officialy am a larger fan of WiH than I am of AoA (and that's saying something.) and to think that WiH is only half released. You all have a gift.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 08:32:15 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

HOW CAN THAT BE

I mean they are specifically cued to arrive when the Indus is EXACTLY that...

...****. Wait a minute.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 09, 2010, 08:33:14 pm
I'm getting these error messages:

Could Not Load in2_CommandBrief-mbf
<No Module>! Kfast System Call Ret
<No Module>! Wait For Single Object
<No Module>! <No Symbol>
<No Module>! <No Symbol>

Theres another thing too.  When I run War in Heaven, the first screen says that there are 66 errors.  :eek2:

Help please! :sigh:



Could I please have screenshots of the root directory and the blueplanet and blueplanet2 folders?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 08:34:59 pm
I'm getting these error messages:

Could Not Load in2_CommandBrief-mbf
<No Module>! Kfast System Call Ret
<No Module>! Wait For Single Object
<No Module>! <No Symbol>
<No Module>! <No Symbol>

Theres another thing too.  When I run War in Heaven, the first screen says that there are 66 errors.  :eek2:

Help please! :sigh:



Could I please have screenshots of the root directory and the blueplanet and blueplanet2 folders?


What?

Can you post your debug log? You've just got a bad install, it'll only take a second to sort out.

Debug log will fix it.


Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

HOW CAN THAT BE

I mean they are specifically cued to arrive when the Indus is EXACTLY that...

...****. Wait a minute.


Can I get one more piece of info from you? Is the Jackknife group arriving when the Indus is about 8000 meters from the Carthage every time? Second, do the two Deimos corvettes that attack usually warp out/blow up near the Karunas, or do they move past them and fly away into the distance?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2010, 08:37:23 pm
I'm getting these error messages:

Could Not Load in2_CommandBrief-mbf
<No Module>! Kfast System Call Ret
<No Module>! Wait For Single Object
<No Module>! <No Symbol>
<No Module>! <No Symbol>

Theres another thing too.  When I run War in Heaven, the first screen says that there are 66 errors.  :eek2:

Help please! :sigh:

Actually, what you are missing is properly installed mediavps 3.6.12. Read the release post for the 3.6.12 mediavps CAREFULLY and follow the instructions TO THE LETTER.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 09, 2010, 09:11:12 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

HOW CAN THAT BE

I mean they are specifically cued to arrive when the Indus is EXACTLY that...

...****. Wait a minute.


Can I get one more piece of info from you? Is the Jackknife group arriving when the Indus is about 8000 meters from the Carthage every time? Second, do the two Deimos corvettes that attack usually warp out/blow up near the Karunas, or do they move past them and fly away into the distance?

1) Yes, it's about 8000 meters away every time.  2) The Leander (or whichever one your mission obj. is to disarm and not nullify) almost never jumps, despite all it's green beams being knocked out.  It just sails on past and then randomly leaves after a while, even though it's not under attack.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 09:11:49 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

HOW CAN THAT BE

I mean they are specifically cued to arrive when the Indus is EXACTLY that...

...****. Wait a minute.


Can I get one more piece of info from you? Is the Jackknife group arriving when the Indus is about 8000 meters from the Carthage every time? Second, do the two Deimos corvettes that attack usually warp out/blow up near the Karunas, or do they move past them and fly away into the distance?

1) Yes, it's about 8000 meters away every time.  2) The Leander (or whichever one you're mission obj. is to disarm and not nullify) almost never jumps, despite all it's green beams being knocked out.  It just sails on past and then randomly leaves after a while, even though it's not under attack.

Awesome. I know the problem. Tell me, are you issuing any disarm or disable orders to your wingmen?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 09, 2010, 09:15:06 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

HOW CAN THAT BE

I mean they are specifically cued to arrive when the Indus is EXACTLY that...

...****. Wait a minute.


Can I get one more piece of info from you? Is the Jackknife group arriving when the Indus is about 8000 meters from the Carthage every time? Second, do the two Deimos corvettes that attack usually warp out/blow up near the Karunas, or do they move past them and fly away into the distance?

1) Yes, it's about 8000 meters away every time.  2) The Leander (or whichever one you're mission obj. is to disarm and not nullify) almost never jumps, despite all it's green beams being knocked out.  It just sails on past and then randomly leaves after a while, even though it's not under attack.

Awesome. I know the problem. Tell me, are you issuing any disarm or disable orders to your wingmen?

Yeah.  For whatever reason beta wing cannot disarm/disable (the commands are grey'ed out, purposefully I assume now), but gamma wing can be ordered to disarm/disable so I've been sic-ing them on the Leander.  A job they fail spectacularly at, now that I think about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 09, 2010, 09:22:23 pm
Heh, wait, let me guess.

The Indus and Yangtze are scripted to stop once the two diemos corvettes jump out, so when the leander goes all fubar they just keep going and eventually get close enough to the carthage to trigger jackknife, at which point all hell breaks loose?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 09:24:16 pm
Heh, wait, let me guess.

The Indus and Yangtze are scripted to stop once the two diemos corvettes jump out, so when the leander goes all fubar they just keep going and eventually get close enough to the carthage to trigger jackknife, at which point all hell breaks loose?

Yes. Exactly. And there's a reason the Leander is going all FUBAR. What you've done is triggered a 'bug' - really an ugly hack - that's been in the engine since retail.

When you give a disarm or disable command to a ship, the engine tells all ships that are not the ships you issued the order to to stop firing at your target.

So when you give the disarm/disable command, you're ALSO telling the Indus and Yangtze to stop firing at the Leander...so it never goes low enough hull to warp out.

We really need a fix for this. In the meantime I'll disable all disarm/disable commands for Gamma. You can just avoid using them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: UltimateAlex94 on August 09, 2010, 09:24:55 pm
Spoiler:
Could someone tell me
a) How I am to be evading the Nyx Fighters in "My Brother, My Enemy"
b) What i need to say.. I tried this stuff for 10 times, was able to win the fight once and then got told i failed due to picking the wrong dialouges..
Thanks

Excellent ships and gameplay untill then though :D:D
Feels like AoA, just much better :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 09:29:19 pm
Spoiler:
Could someone tell me
a) How I am to be evading the Nyx Fighters in "My Brother, My Enemy"
b) What i need to say.. I tried this stuff for 10 times, was able to win the fight once and then got told i failed due to picking the wrong dialouges..
Thanks

Excellent ships and gameplay untill then though :D:D
Feels like AoA, just much better :D

Try just running in the opposite direction. ;7 The Nyxes can't keep up. When the gunships arrive, just kinda...steer back their way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 09, 2010, 09:37:00 pm
Heh, wait, let me guess.

The Indus and Yangtze are scripted to stop once the two diemos corvettes jump out, so when the leander goes all fubar they just keep going and eventually get close enough to the carthage to trigger jackknife, at which point all hell breaks loose?

Yes. Exactly. And there's a reason the Leander is going all FUBAR. What you've done is triggered a 'bug' - really an ugly hack - that's been in the engine since retail.

When you give a disarm or disable command to a ship, the engine tells all ships that are not the ships you issued the order to to stop firing at your target.

So when you give the disarm/disable command, you're ALSO telling the Indus and Yangtze to stop firing at the Leander...so it never goes low enough hull to warp out.

We really need a fix for this. In the meantime I'll disable all disarm/disable commands for Gamma. You can just avoid using them.

ahahahaha, she works!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: esarai on August 09, 2010, 09:37:14 pm
Spoiler:
When the stealth fighters popped Elder Taudigani, at first I was all

(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/esaraisaiea/sad-face.jpg)

But then I was all
(http://i279.photobucket.com/albums/kk124/esaraisaiea/KirkSTEELEcopy.png)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 09, 2010, 09:40:28 pm
:wakka:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 09, 2010, 09:41:50 pm
I'm getting these error messages:

Could Not Load in2_CommandBrief-mbf
<No Module>! Kfast System Call Ret
<No Module>! Wait For Single Object
<No Module>! <No Symbol>
<No Module>! <No Symbol>

Theres another thing too.  When I run War in Heaven, the first screen says that there are 66 errors.  :eek2:

Help please! :sigh:

Actually, what you are missing is properly installed mediavps 3.6.12. Read the release post for the 3.6.12 mediavps CAREFULLY and follow the instructions TO THE LETTER.


E how do you post a debug log?  Do you need mantis which I have never used before?   :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 09:43:03 pm
I'm getting these error messages:

Could Not Load in2_CommandBrief-mbf
<No Module>! Kfast System Call Ret
<No Module>! Wait For Single Object
<No Module>! <No Symbol>
<No Module>! <No Symbol>

Theres another thing too.  When I run War in Heaven, the first screen says that there are 66 errors.  :eek2:

Help please! :sigh:

Actually, what you are missing is properly installed mediavps 3.6.12. Read the release post for the 3.6.12 mediavps CAREFULLY and follow the instructions TO THE LETTER.


E how do you post a debug log?  Do you need mantis which I have never used before?   :confused:

Nope. Go to the support forum, read the stickied thread, it's in the last post.

You need to run a debug build (ends in -d or -debug), then go to FreeSpace2/data/ and post fs2_open.log.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 09, 2010, 10:02:44 pm
I don't see any debug build.  Could you please give me a link? :eek2:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 10:03:48 pm
I don't see any debug build.  Could you please give me a link? :eek2:

You have one in your /FreeSpace 2/ directory. It ends in -d or -debug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: azile0 on August 09, 2010, 10:38:10 pm
Whooooooooa. I just finished. Whooooooooooa.

I felt hunted. I felt trapped. I felt afraid. I felt rage at the Tevs. This mod is amazing, and I'm glad the BP team took so long to polish and perfect it. Now, I just need to wait another 3 years for part 2. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 09, 2010, 10:41:19 pm
It probably won't be 3 years for Part 2. The reason WiH took so long is because it was built up from scratch twice (an alpha build was dumped completely for not being awesome enough). It was also developed concurrently with AoA:DC. And it still took about 1/4 as long as most big mods. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 10:54:09 pm
Whooooooooa. I just finished. Whooooooooooa.

I felt hunted. I felt trapped. I felt afraid. I felt rage at the Tevs. This mod is amazing, and I'm glad the BP team took so long to polish and perfect it. Now, I just need to wait another 3 years for part 2. :D

Actually, War in Heaven only took about fifteen months!

Also how do you get rid of that flash that keeps apearing it keeps causing this to come up i thought you could stop it in the launcher but i cant find it.
LUA ERROR: [string "mv_exp-sct.tbm - On Mission Start"]:593: attempt to index local 'l_anim_flash' (a nil value)

------------------------------------------------------------------
ADE Debug:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:      (null)
Name of:   (null)
Function type:   (null)
Defined on:   0
Upvalues:   0

Source:      (null)
Short source:   
Current line:   0
- Function line:   0
------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------------------------------------------
LUA Stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------



STOP USING A DEBUG BUILD. Play with a release build.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 09, 2010, 11:02:09 pm
Then your mediavps and blueplanet installation is not done right. If you use final .12's and your mediavps and bp installation is done right, you get no debug errors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 11:03:38 pm
I've asked him for a debug log. Stand by.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 09, 2010, 11:04:11 pm
Support ships made vishnan beam noises when reloading primaries.  :confused:
Noticed this too
This shouldn't be possible. Those rearm sounds are hardcoded to use sound indexes 200 and 201, neither of which is used in BP2. These indexes should be empty.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 09, 2010, 11:07:11 pm
Support ships made vishnan beam noises when reloading primaries.  :confused:
Noticed this too
This shouldn't be possible. Those rearm sounds are hardcoded to use sound indexes 200 and 201, neither of which is used in BP2. These indexes should be empty.

I had this happen once on the retail FS2 campaign when I had BP:WiH selected as a mod.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 09, 2010, 11:09:11 pm
What? Retail campaign has no ballistic primaries. Which means, even if there was a vishnan beam sound assigned to indexes 200 and 201, they would never play in the retail campaign unless you've modded some weapon(s) to be ballistic primaries.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 09, 2010, 11:15:22 pm
I will add that I also experienced a Vishnan beam effect on rearm. I believe it triggered right when I got undocked. Or, it was this weird funky sound that had me spinning about looking for the source before getting confused and giving up. I'm not too sure though, since I'm pretty good at selectively forgetting things like this to aid in immersion.

(first mission with the Uriel, also first mission with ballistic primaries)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 09, 2010, 11:17:43 pm
No, that is not debug log. Read the instructions in this topic: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.msg1180359#msg1180359

So what i download CPU-Z and then what throw it in freespace directory and run it im confused

No. Simply select the -d or -debug build present in your FreeSpace 2 directory in the Launcher, run it, and post the log it generates in FreeSpace2/data/. This log will be called fs2_open.log.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on August 09, 2010, 11:22:53 pm
This might be kind of disjointed and rambling, bear with me...

I was asked by a team member to post a review. Since they create such awesome work for free, words of praise are their only 'payment' really, so I think they've earned that much at least.

First, a confession: I wasn't a huge fan of AoA at first. It was great fun, don't get me wrong, but I found the parallel universe plot amusingly cheesy. However it was still very enjoyable because the campaign took itself seriously, the missions were fun to play, and the music was excellent. Since then, it's become one of my favorite campaigns, but I digress... this isn't about AoA.

Spoiler:
First off, this is probably the most well written and well thought out campaign I've ever played. The prose added to the experience tremendously and was a joy to read. The fiction viewer pieces combined with the somber music really made me feel a sense of camaraderie with the Wargods (or foreboding in the case of red ants vs black ants). A million kudos for using actually using debriefing recommendations, btw.

I was assured that WiH would be a gritty, gruesome war story and wondered how that could be accomplished with FS's rather detached combat. Well now I know. I mean holy ****, radiation-poisoned evacuees drowning in their own vomit during EVA?  :shaking: I've seen a few people comparing WiH to BSG, and I can kind of see that, but as I'm writing this I realize that what it really reminds me of is the X-Wing novels. (That's a really good thing, in case you don't know.) Laporte is one cool cat, and it was great fun to watch her struggle with reconciling Ubuntu philosophy and the reality of warfare. Of course it was also great fun to BE her and feel the highs and lows of every victory and defeat.

I know a lot of HLPers have sided with either the UEF or GTVA, but I honestly feel conflicted even after finishing the campaign. I hate Steele's underhanded plots and douchebaggery. I hate to see Laporte and Co. crushed again and again. On the other hand... I don't want to see Xinny and Zero die, they're good guys, they went into the Lion's Den for God's sake. (Also, I'm old-school. I loved Derelict, so it was kind of bittersweet to see the 212th in one mission.) That zod rescue mission was nuts. I thought it might actually be a turning point in the war. Instead I ended up blowing away Scorpio 1 moments after chatting with him because I didn't want to die.

Okay so now let's talk gameplay. You devs are absolute maniacs. Whether you actually have or not, it certainly looks like you've thought out every possible detail of the war. Both fluff-wise and mechanics-wise you've set a new precedent in campaign-making. I mean seriously, the other day I was idling in #bp and Battuta's casually talking about "So yeah, the Aurora sets up a strike link, then passes it on the the other fighters in the area, and THEN they call in the SSM strike," and my mind was blown. Treb strikes, maxim strikes, SSM strikes, gunship strikes, torpedo strikes, strike strikes, WTFPWN Aeolus flak... son I am impress. Oh and all the unconventional stuff was cool too. Dating Simm, frakking QTE, hostage takan, all nice changes of pace.

Running out of steam here, going to wrap up. Playing as a woman was cool; strong female characters FTW. That massive explosion sound effect is god-tier. Difficulty was just right, I usually managed to barely squeak by on my first try on Medium (except on Delenda Est >_<). One Perfect Moment was nice, especially with the sucker punch that follows. The music was spot-on. It was cool to hear some of the same tracks from BP1, helped give it a sense of continuity. Steele is a magnificent bastard. Pegasi are terrifying. I totally caught the Red Faction: Guerrilla reference.

I now can't wait to do some balls-out crazy **** with the Fedayeen. :yes: (But I don't want to destroy the GTVA ;_;)

WiH was hyped up to be something amazing and you all delivered. Keep it up!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 10, 2010, 12:10:02 am
What? Retail campaign has no ballistic primaries. Which means, even if there was a vishnan beam sound assigned to indexes 200 and 201, they would never play in the retail campaign unless you've modded some weapon(s) to be ballistic primaries.

Sorry, I didn't explain well.  I had the beam sound, while reloading my secondaries.  It was in the King's Gambit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on August 10, 2010, 12:12:33 am
That actually got identified and fixed for a while, but came back again for some unknown reason. By the time I noticed it again it was two days before release, and none of us felt like delaying release for a bug that should already be fixed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 10, 2010, 12:56:36 am
The vishnan beam sound but has been fixed, again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 10, 2010, 03:18:40 am
THE ALTERNATE ENDING WAS AWESOME.

Spoiler:
I HUGGED MISTER CUDDLES! Then the Imperieuse jumped in and my invuln had somehow turned itself off. I almost died.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ION3 on August 10, 2010, 06:00:35 am
Quote
Vishnan beam effect on rearm

Me too
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: UltimateAlex94 on August 10, 2010, 08:33:15 am
Quote
Try just running in the opposite direction. ;7 The Nyxes can't keep up. When the gunships arrive, just kinda...steer back their way.

Haha alright, will do so. I thought I better not do this the first few (wait, few? ;D) attempts because I thought Simms is getting her ass kicked back there.
Anyway, I still Have no idea on point b, that conversation between you and Simms =/

Thanks though
-Alex

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 10, 2010, 08:54:45 am
Read the briefing carefully. Ng'Mei gives you a bit of advice on how to handle Simms.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 10, 2010, 11:30:51 am
Whooooooooa. I just finished. Whooooooooooa.

I felt hunted. I felt trapped. I felt afraid. I felt rage at the Tevs. This mod is amazing, and I'm glad the BP team took so long to polish and perfect it. Now, I just need to wait another 3 years for part 2. :D

Actually, War in Heaven only took about fifteen months!

Also how do you get rid of that flash that keeps apearing it keeps causing this to come up i thought you could stop it in the launcher but i cant find it.
LUA ERROR: [string "mv_exp-sct.tbm - On Mission Start"]:593: attempt to index local 'l_anim_flash' (a nil value)

------------------------------------------------------------------
ADE Debug:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Name:      (null)
Name of:   (null)
Function type:   (null)
Defined on:   0
Upvalues:   0

Source:      (null)
Short source:   
Current line:   0
- Function line:   0
------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------------------------------------------
LUA Stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------



STOP USING A DEBUG BUILD. Play with a release build.

I got the same error, I solved this by downloading the core and the 2 visuals assets from Age of Aquarious since they've been updated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 10, 2010, 12:07:58 pm
Another bug report:  In Pawns, if you load from the checkpoint then the Disable objective for the Deimos never completes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 12:09:41 pm
Another bug report:  In Pawns, if you load from the checkpoint then the Disable objective for the Deimos never completes.

Fixed!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 10, 2010, 12:15:37 pm
Another bug report:  In Pawns, if you load from the checkpoint then the Disable objective for the Deimos never completes.

Fixed!

Another bug:  after reloading from the checkpoint, all of Simms' dialogue comes from "Command."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 12:16:32 pm
Another bug report:  In Pawns, if you load from the checkpoint then the Disable objective for the Deimos never completes.

Fixed!

Another bug:  after reloading from the checkpoint, all of Simms' dialogue comes from "Command."

That's because Simms died; her guardian never goes off if the checkpoint is loaded. Already fixed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 10, 2010, 12:37:34 pm
SPOILER if you REALY want to know
 ;7
Spoiler:
4,3,3,1,1,2
;7
 
Yes there IS a Vishan beam sound during reloading

@BP Dev Team, I threw together a few creepy sounds into a file that you might be able to make use of
*Source: D1 D2

also i scrounged up possible new sounds for the fighter/bomber mounted EM-guns (Redeemer and Vajra) and the Rapier and Maul. I'm also going to try to remake the old Archer from Sol A History? and do some awesome stuff too it like not call it the Archer and give it a accurate back-ground but I'm going to throw all of that together so I'll have it when I have it

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 10, 2010, 12:57:58 pm
I don't understand the spoiler.

I'm guessing D1 and D2 is Descent 1 and 2?

You mean the Archer used on the Wraith from Dawn of Sol, there isn't an Archer in S:AH.

And I'm still curious about this:
Spoiler:
FTFx Thor shield.ani and a weapon called TerSlashBlueAAA, with a very small beam and beamglow, this seems to hint at something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 10, 2010, 01:24:18 pm
@Commander Zane, dawn of sol? oh right thanks man and yes its Descent

oh and the spoiler? hint: what are the default key bindings?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 10, 2010, 01:37:50 pm
Spoiler:
Saturn mission is pissing me off bigtime. What am I doing wrong? I keep failing it when the Orton orde or w/e gets swiss cheesed or killed by orion flak when it's trying to get it to surrender. I mean, is it necessary to sit 100 meters away from the Carthage in range of everything in sight when the frigate has 11 health left?

here's what I do so far after checkpoint 1: fighters show up, I kill a couple wings with slammers, then beeline to the nearest deimos. Kill 2 beams on one side, kill 2 beams on the orion, kill 2 beams on the other deimos, attempt rearm. At this point, most of my wingmen are dead but so are all enemy fighters. I then rearm and try to kill beams on the leviathans and the aoelus. I usually don't get to this point because the orde will be dead by then, even on very easy.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 01:40:57 pm
That part is being made easier in the next patch.

Could you drop this file into your /blueplanet2/data/missions folder and try it out for me? It should help you out with that section.

Edit: Attachment removed
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 10, 2010, 01:44:37 pm
:D yay!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 10, 2010, 02:07:45 pm
I have to say, the Saturn mission has some serious timing issues, so I'm glad to hear it's being addressed.

Spoiler:
For some reason, Jacknife occasionally jumps in early before you even engage the last of the enemy wings - so the group jumps in and you have to take out Deimos beams while there are still 20+ enemy fighters in the sky.  Good ****ing luck.

If that doesn't happen, and you actually manage to take out the Deimos beams, an adventure in and of itself because they keep turning, then the Indus gives the Carthage a chance to surrender, and it promptly blasts one of the frigates (Alta, usually) to pieces either with a beam cannon or flak.  No matter, I think, perhaps this is scripted... but no, the mission ends and informs me I could have saved the Alta.  Right.

I tried this on Medium, where I usually play (and have played the entire campaign to this point) and finally merged down to Easy after 8 failed attempts... and it's still not helping.

It might be doable if the Beam Dsiarming objective didn't fire until most of the fighter wings were eliminated, but as it stands I'm more often than not ending up with the enemy wings virtually intact and then getting an order to wipe out 8 beam turrets while the two Deimos corvettes spin on their axes making Archer use incredibly difficult.

I'm not sure if there's some unintended consequence of checkpoint loading happening here, but the timing in this mission can get seriously FUBAR'ed in a hurry.  As it currently stands, 70 seconds is nowhere near enough time to disarm the beam cannons if so much as a single enemy wing is left.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 10, 2010, 02:13:05 pm
i did it on easy and i was getting shot to hell and back.

The key is the Maxims, the blood Maxims, the Maxims in this mission will CRIPPLE your stuff, i ended up having the Indus hanging on at 10 percent because of those things, take out the anti-cap guys first.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 02:13:59 pm
MP-Ryan: try to avoid giving any disarm/disable orders in the mission. A patch is on the way.

In the meantime I'm going to PM you a version of the mission I want you to test.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 10, 2010, 02:16:46 pm
I have to say, the Saturn mission has some serious timing issues, so I'm glad to hear it's being addressed.

Spoiler:
For some reason, Jacknife occasionally jumps in early before you even engage the last of the enemy wings - so the group jumps in and you have to take out Deimos beams while there are still 20+ enemy fighters in the sky.  Good ****ing luck.

If that doesn't happen, and you actually manage to take out the Deimos beams, an adventure in and of itself because they keep turning, then the Indus gives the Carthage a chance to surrender, and it promptly blasts one of the frigates (Alta, usually) to pieces either with a beam cannon or flak.  No matter, I think, perhaps this is scripted... but no, the mission ends and informs me I could have saved the Alta.  Right.

I tried this on Medium, where I usually play (and have played the entire campaign to this point) and finally merged down to Easy after 8 failed attempts... and it's still not helping.

It might be doable if the Beam Dsiarming objective didn't fire until most of the fighter wings were eliminated, but as it stands I'm more often than not ending up with the enemy wings virtually intact and then getting an order to wipe out 8 beam turrets while the two Deimos corvettes spin on their axes making Archer use incredibly difficult.

I'm not sure if there's some unintended consequence of checkpoint loading happening here, but the timing in this mission can get seriously FUBAR'ed in a hurry.  As it currently stands, 70 seconds is nowhere near enough time to disarm the beam cannons if so much as a single enemy wing is left.
Spoiler:
I thought that was intentional. Almost every play through I've done has jacknife warp in on top of the enemy wings. I figured it was kinda realistic, since the operation isn't supposed to have a high probability of success in the first place.

Battuta, fury nuked your attachment before I could get it :( PM it instead plz?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 10, 2010, 02:18:33 pm
MP-Ryan: try to avoid giving any disarm/disable orders in the mission. A patch is on the way.

In the meantime I'm going to PM you a version of the mission I want you to test.

I haven't been issuing any orders other than destroy target and engage enemy, all against fighters.

I'll test it out right now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 02:19:54 pm
MP-Ryan: try to avoid giving any disarm/disable orders in the mission. A patch is on the way.

In the meantime I'm going to PM you a version of the mission I want you to test.

I haven't been issuing any orders other than destroy target and engage enemy, all against fighters.

I'll test it out right now.

Make sure you grab the text from the edit box at the bottom so it's not infected with line numbers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 10, 2010, 02:21:07 pm
i did it on easy and i was getting shot to hell and back.

The key is the Maxims, the blood Maxims, the Maxims in this mission will CRIPPLE your stuff, i ended up having the Indus hanging on at 10 percent because of those things, take out the anti-cap guys first.

The section up till the checkpoint is pretty easy on Medium. I got both escorts through with 26, 68 respectively, and they don't see further action past that point. It's the second part after the checkpoint that has me tearing out hair on even Very Easy.

Also, incredibly useful (though probably an exploit) to change your load-out at checkpoints. I started seeing more success in
Spoiler:
killing turrets after swapping my slammers for paveways. More success = I got to hear a bit of the dialogue about being tagged.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 10, 2010, 02:23:43 pm
The section up till the checkpoint is pretty easy on Medium. I got both escorts through with 26, 68 respectively, and they don't see further action past that point. It's the second part after the checkpoint that has me tearing out hair on even Very Easy.

Also, incredibly useful (though probably an exploit) to change your load-out at checkpoints. I started seeing more success in
Spoiler:
killing turrets after swapping my slammers for paveways. More success = I got to hear a bit of the dialogue about being tagged.
Yeah, I had no trouble getting to the checkpoint on medium, it's the events following at are driving me crazy too.  Though I haven't found paveways particularly useful due to the fact that the corvettes spin and they have a long lock time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 10, 2010, 02:30:42 pm
I know its too soon to ask whether part 2 will come out soon, but is it expected to take as long as part 1? Or was some of part 1's dev time modeling/engine/not FREDDING?

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 10, 2010, 02:33:12 pm
A lot of BP2's development time was spent building the modpack. We'll probably be able to get R2 out of the door more quickly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 02:35:04 pm
I know its too soon to ask whether part 2 will come out soon, but is it expected to take as long as part 1? Or was some of part 1's dev time modeling/engine/not FREDDING?



Considering that R1 was one of the fastest mod releases in history, I hope we can do it as fast as R1! With luck, faster.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 10, 2010, 03:02:29 pm
Battuta, PM sent to you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Duidalus on August 10, 2010, 03:10:00 pm
Normally I just lurk around here, but as with BP AoA, I need to convey my thanks to the BP team for creating this great campaign. I really enjoyed the soundtrack too as it simply is an essential part of my gaming experience with any game.

2 simple words are enough to describe the awesomeness of WiH p1: Holy ****.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 03:11:06 pm
Normally I just lurk around here, but as with BP AoA, I need to convey my thanks to the BP team for creating this great campaign. I really enjoyed the soundtrack too as it simply is an essential part of my gaming experience with any game.

2 simple words are enough to describe the awesomeness of WiH p1: Holy ****.

Thank you so much. It's really heartwarming to see all these people coming out of the cracks. People forget that this community is a lot bigger than it looks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firartix on August 10, 2010, 03:25:11 pm
Weeeeell
I told you i'd come back as soon as i had played a few missions but it was too good so i decided to finish it first D:

Anyway!
(NOTE: There's obviously more bad things than good ones, since most of the bad points i'm going to tell aren't/are crap)
EDIT: For the record, the "aren't/are crap" meant "aren't bad points/are fake ones". There, i'm cleared of guilty thoughts.

UBER-GUD stuff:
1 - The plot and all missions are good and ultra-immersive... THIS IS CRAP! Now i'm almost crying about how lame logistics on EVE Online are boring to play, and i have to write posts on HLP and listen to WiH music at same time (imported it, it was too coolz) to feel better.
2 - The checkpoint system is ONE OF THE BEST IDEA EVER!
3 - The capship playing mission is fun and all, with plenty good ideas, but a bit disturbing at start. I really liked the tactical and gunnery messages, that's immersive :P (In fact i almost started shouting some stuff like that while playing EVE Online then >_>)
4 - The interactive stuff. I was expecting so much from it that when you get to contact eris tacnet, i paused the game to note down the code, and then tried to write it w/ keyboard...



BAD stuff! (at least, imo)
1 - The checkpoint system, however, cause so many mission bugs D: i self destructed several times, had my wingmen go boom on load, had messages and dialog sequence replay for no reason, and even once I had simms getting gunned down in the middle of a mission (probably a SEXP not being applied or something, idk)
2 - On the last mission, CTD tends to happen when you die. Couldn't quite reproduce or debug.
3 - This campaign makes you want to threaten the mission makers so they hurry finishing part 2
4 - The capship campaign NEEDS more missions! Really, i think you should have included 2 or 3 missions instead of one - because one isn't enough at all to get a good overview of the tactical possibilities and stuff.... When i was told it was only one mission, i though this was a BoE. BoEs make perfect single-mission stuff imo, you get plenty stuff to do.
5 - The last mission definitely is too hard D: ! I could finish most of missions on Insane without (too much :°) problems, but i had to retry the very last multiple times on very easy....
6  - It was too short, i mean, story wise, i really didn't think it'd end that way (game wise it was cool too). I know it's part 1, but it's neither kindda an end or a big break imo..... well thinking about story it should be, but i sure didn't feel it that way.
7 - (WARNING: Personal POV following) The UEF ships needs more railguns and less torpedoes, they'll be more classy !
8 - Missing LODs make using debug builds on the last mission impossible, since the debug build lags soooo much and scalling down settings won't help then. I guess it can cause harm to old GPUs too - but i take it that the LODs will be done in time :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 03:27:44 pm
4 - The interactive stuff. I was expecting so much from it that when you get to contact eris tacnet, i paused the game to note down the code, and then tried to write it w/ keyboard...

That's the one thing that we didn't make interactive that I really wish we had. But it seems like everybody thinks it is and presses the keys.  :shaking:

Thank you for your review! We'd definitely like to do more capship missions and we're hard at work on R2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 10, 2010, 03:57:41 pm
Having finally finished the campaign, I have some more comments... BUT first, because I think criticism should always be exhausted so praise stands alone, I have a couple comments/suggestions about that last mission around Saturn (yes, even after the patched version):

Spoiler:
Battuta, I got your PM reply.  I think the difficulty in the fray after the checkpoint (prior to the checkpoint is absolutely fine) comes from a variety of sources.
1.  The testers all had extensive practice with Slammers, making the chewing up of the last 5 wings an easy affair for them.  By contrast, those of us who are playing WiH for the first time are relying on their aspect-lock, which doesn't seem to be as effective as the advice testers gave in other threads.  Those wings don't drop fast enough for your average player.
2.  Because the fighter wings don't drop quickly, it's incredibly frustrating to get an order to kill no less than 8 beam turrets while you still have somewhere between 4 (my best so far, on Easy) and 16 enemy fighters left to deal with.
3.  If the sheer number of beam cannons weren't enough, both Deimos corvettes spin rapidly on their X and Y axes, making Paveways useless (they just crash into the hull) and Archer use highly difficult.  Combined with the flak as you attempt to fly around the damn things, this quickly ruins your day if any fighters are left.  Not to mention the 70 (now 80, you've proposed) seconds you have to drop the cannons.

The patch you gave addressed the issue of the Alta dying during the Carthage-surrender sequence.

The issue which is causing mission failure is the beam cannon directive.  Rather than adjust to give you more time, I'd suggest the directive still fire when you have fighters in the sky, BUT set the two Deimos on direct courses for the frigates (eliminate the axis rotation), and reduce the number of beam turrets you have to kill (to the two front turrets on each vessel).  Following the destruction of both frontal beams on both corvettes, fire an event to roll them over and only then have the player destroy the aft turrets.  You could divide the overload sequence into two separate 45-second duration events, with 15 second spacing between them for the course change, rather than just lengthening the time given to kill all the turrets at once.  I notice there is already in-mission dialogue about execution of a roll to bring other turrets to bear, so this could be tied in.  Right now, the debrief when you fail says you need to kill all four turrets within the time-span, and the directive encompasses all four turrets (despite the fact that not all 4 necessarily will fire in an overload).

It also helps if your fellow Wargods attack the Deimos turrets.  That behaviour seems to be improved in the mission patch you gave me, as they finished up one of the Deimos corvettes shortly after I disarmed the other one.

Other than that, the rest of the mission is fine now.

Now then, having finished the campaign, here are my final-ish comments:

Spoiler:
I only recently reinstalled FSO to play Vassago's Dirge, and I'd been eagerly anticipating WiH after playing AoA (when it was first released).  I certainly wasn't disappointed.  I've already given a number of comments about the writing, but I have to briefly reiterate:  the backstory, character development, and mission writing in this mod is without a doubt the best in any FS mod I've played to date.  You guys seriously upp'ed the bar here, and you're well on par with or well past professional game studios on the writing side.  As I said early, it's almost literary.  Probably the best part about the writing is how mature it is - it's very gritty wartime drama, and the tone would be just as well suited to fiction about conventional war in this time period as it is to a sci-fi universe.  The writing had me wanting to basically forget about playing the game and just read through the plot elements - which tells you how immersive it is.

Mission design... while I would have appreciated a little more variety in the role the pilot ultimately ends up playing - as I said in another thread, most of what the pilot does is space superiority (and I hear this will be different in R2, so that's good) - the missions themselves were executed brilliantly, so much so that I didn't actually mind not doing much but space superiority.  The only small issue I had with some of them is the length - more checkpoints would have been extremely useful, though it was mentioned that you had to work within a hard-coded variable limit.  Aside from that, we had diverse settings, diverse goals, and certainly some creative FREDing going on.  And the use of music to convey emotion during the mission gameplay (and cutscenes) was pure genius.  Someone missed their calling as a music editor in film.  The missions made this one of those games (I refuse to think of WiH as just a mod) that you actually feel like you're involved in the story, which is a rarity in flight games (certainly, retail FS2 did not give this feeling nearly as well as WiH has).

The visuals were incredible, which we've come to expect - even when I was getting blown to tiny pieces or getting 'Primary Objective Failed' flashed across my screen in the final mission, I couldn't help but admire just how damn pretty this was.  No complaints on the visual end, though model optimization would be an added bonus.

One nagging drawback, which has been brought up by others, is the lack of real information about weapon choices.  I don't think I actually found a use for the Gattler, and it wasn't until late in the game that I discovered just how useful Darts can be.  Those drawbacks are easy fixes though - additional command briefing stages and tech room entries will take care of that easily.  The other slightly off-putting issue was jargon - there were a few jargon issues and acronyms that got thrown out there during in-mission dialogue that took away from the immersion factor because you can't help sitting in your chair thinking "What does that stand for?  I'm a pilot in a war, I should know what that stands for."  I wish I could remember which mission in particular made me notice that.

Lastly... the ending/cliffhanger.  Brilliant work.  I identified strongly with the Federation throughout the campaign, but I couldn't help admiring Steele in the same crushing moment that the Imperieuse jumped in and ruined the day.  The final sequences were great, and the last moments of the following cutscene when the Fedayeen [aside:  having recently read the Dune novels, this word bugged me because of its similarity to Fedaykin, which then set me wondering if that was intentional and served as a bit of a distraction every time the word cropped up] jumped in set my heart pumping.  As for the Bei's, father and son... well, all of it just makes me itch to play through R2.

In terms of overall feel and gameplay, WiH stands all on its own among FSO mods.  Brilliant work, gentlemen and ladies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 04:00:53 pm
Thank you, MP-Ryan. I may take your suggestion about the beam overloads.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on August 10, 2010, 04:09:46 pm
4 - The interactive stuff. I was expecting so much from it that when you get to contact eris tacnet, i paused the game to note down the code, and then tried to write it w/ keyboard...

That's the one thing that we didn't make interactive that I really wish we had. But it seems like everybody thinks it is and presses the keys.  :shaking:


You... don't have to press the keys ?  So you're telling me NOW, after several dozen tries at this mission ? Oh come on. I suspected that there was something fishy with the heavy lag after I pressed the keys, but hey, this whole interactive thing is fishy in the first place. And now you're telling me I didn't have to press those keys ? DAMMIT.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 10, 2010, 04:29:44 pm
How many missions have WiH ?
I'm stuck on Delanda Est mission.
Spoiler:
Normally, I play on Medium difficulty, but this one make my day and I play this mission X times before decreasing the difficulty. And now, on Very easy, I couldn't progress any more. The Indus is destroyed or if I go to the checkpoint it's both the Katana/Arta Orde (spelling ??) which went go boom. I don't have enought time to neutralize those deimos beams. My Wingmens seems to ignore my order.

PS: I didn't read previous message concerning this mission, since I've just notice they are talking about tis mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 04:31:47 pm
How many missions have WiH ?
I'm stuck on Delanda Est mission.
Spoiler:
Normally, I play on Medium difficulty, but this one make my day and I play this mission X times before decreasing the difficulty. And now, on Very easy, I couldn't progress any more. The Indus is destroyed or if I go to the checkpoint it's both the Katana/Arta Orde (spelling ??) which went go boom. I don't have enought time to neutralize those deimos beams. My Wingmens seems to ignore my order.

PS: I didn't read previous message concerning this mission, since I've just notice they are talking about tis mission.


Yeah I think we need to patch this ASAP.

At the moment the player has been given ten additional seconds to take out the overcharge beams and the Katana and AO have improved active armor as well. I may further reduce the number of beams that overload, or implement a rolling overload like MP-Ryan suggested. If you have feedback supply it now.

Testing is underway on a patched Delenda Est to reduce difficulty and clear up a few mission logic bugs players have identified. Expect a hotfix in the near future.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 10, 2010, 05:48:27 pm
i finished my little weak, i made the DoS Archer into the Tesla, it probably really needs balancing  but i did all of the effects to make it look like a blue-lightning cannon, oh and some sounds for the weapons.

I know that the Tesla's Tech description is insanely long, but it is for post-production explanation (the low ranking pilot thing, uh, I just thought it necessary for unknown reasons

I left the patch mission in there though.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 06:08:29 pm
I believe I'm observing the 'unpredictable Strike 2 arrival' bug in DE as well, and it appears related to checkpoint loads, but I can't guarantee a fix with the next patch. I believe the sequence has been rendered pretty fairly playable on Medium for the newcomer.

Spoiler:
One of the biggest problems with Checkpoint 1 appears to be the fact that it places the Indus and Yangtze too close to the Carthage, thus compressing the time available for the player to shoot down the Carthage's air wing to the absolute minimum. I'll try to recalibrate the checkpoint coordinates to buy the player more time, but it may need to wait for a future patch.

Testing underway. The patch will also contain a little tiny bit of extra content in various missions for the observant, various tiny bugfixes, and a way to account for complete jerks shooting down the shuttle in m13.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 10, 2010, 06:16:39 pm
i finished my little weak, i made the DoS Archer into the Tesla, it probably really needs balancing  but i did all of the effects to make it look like a blue-lightning cannon, oh and some sounds for the weapons.

I know that the Tesla's Tech description is insanely long, but it is for post-production explanation (the low ranking pilot thing, uh, I just thought it necessary for unknown reasons

I left the patch mission in there though.

Slight tip:
When writing XSTR entries, make sure you have either a tstrings.tbl for translations, or set the number to -1. You assigned numbers starting from 3300 for no reason.
Also, spellchecking is king.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 10, 2010, 06:28:35 pm
OOPS (O.O) >>
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on August 10, 2010, 06:42:20 pm
SO WHERE'S DARIUS???

I demand his appearance in this thread so we can hail him properly.

and maybe send him some love kisses..
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 10:49:19 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

I've figured out exactly what the problem is here; see related thread just posted.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 10, 2010, 11:29:52 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

I've figured out exactly what the problem is here; see related thread just posted.

Nah butta, my problem was ordering gamma to disarm the leander, not the chkpoint.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 10, 2010, 11:36:54 pm

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

I've figured out exactly what the problem is here; see related thread just posted.

Nah butta, my problem was ordering gamma to disarm the leander, not the chkpoint.

Whoops! Should have quoted someone else.

Disarm/disable orders have been removed in the patch version too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Troyd on August 10, 2010, 11:58:11 pm
Loving what I have played so far!

However, are there suppose to be voice overs like in AoA?  Or is that a directors cut thing :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 11, 2010, 12:08:00 am
Loving what I have played so far!

However, are there suppose to be voice overs like in AoA?  Or is that a directors cut thing :)

If a director's cut of War in Heaven comes out, it'l have voice, but we didn't get to it for R1.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on August 11, 2010, 12:42:54 am

Can I get your debug log? Or did I miss it earlier?

Feel free to paste it into the post in code tags.

yep, here it is again.  Just FYI: Jackknife group jumped in before the order was given in this particular playthrough

I've figured out exactly what the problem is here; see related thread just posted.

Nah butta, my problem was ordering gamma to disarm the leander, not the chkpoint.

Whoops! Should have quoted someone else.

Disarm/disable orders have been removed in the patch version too.

For what it's worth, I think I've played the mission through about 5 or 6 times now that I know how to not FUBAR it.  Absolutely amazing piece of work, with extra emphasis on amazing for the musical score.  I honestly don't know how it could possibly be improved, no complaints about the difficulty level here.

Quick question: how do you guys go about selecting VA's?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on August 11, 2010, 03:28:20 am
Wowsers. One day offline and more than a page in the BP forum of new replies. Thanks to everyone who took the time to review the campaign and given their constructive feedback. The energy with which the community is receiving the campaign is infectious, which'll make the daunting task of putting Part 2 together a lot easier :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 11, 2010, 04:25:37 am
Possibly issue with checkpoints and/or replaying the campaign after I beat it:

I was playing the campaign for a second time, and in "Aristeia", it seemed as though it was restoring from the checkpoint it had saved on my first playthrough, rather than restoring the game as it was when I reached the checkpoint on my second playthrough.

However, I can't be certain, because it takes a damn lot of playing to go through the whole campaign, and I'm not too eager to abandon my current progress.



Also, I got awarded the Ace by Zombie Petrarch.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Madcat on August 11, 2010, 07:42:23 am
After reading all this about Delenda Est, I really wonder how I could ever finish that mission on the first try (and on Easy, too). Probably has been sheer luck that I didn't die and had to use checkpoints, and the fact I didn't have a free second at the controls to even think of ordering Gamma Wing around to disarm ships.

Right now I'm almost afraid to continue with my second playthrough because I might just get frustrated on that mission...  :D
Looking forward to the patch!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 11, 2010, 07:44:12 am
I played a bit of Delenda Est today. Despite all these balance issues it's a masterpiece. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Satellight on August 11, 2010, 07:48:05 am
I played a bit of Delenda Est today. Despite all these balance issues it's a masterpiece. :(

Totally agreed. Even if I wanted to throw my computer by the window, I tried an tried and tried... I couldn't realize when I finally pass trough  :lol: I felt very good (just like an orgasm, you know  :nervous:)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on August 11, 2010, 08:04:25 am
I finished playing this today, and I stand by what I said before - what you've created is a masterpiece. I suppose I should give a little review:

Spoiler:
I commend the way you manage to make this actually feel like you're in a war, with all sorts of atrocities and other horrible things happening - the people-drowing-in-vomit part still sticks in my mind. Also, how it shows that the sides are not divided between black and white - just a whole field of gray. I liked how you see both the UEF and the GTVA using strategy and the associated military lingo too, it just makes it feel so much more realistic. :yes: (I also feel I should mention that I felt the UEF's fear of plasma beam cannons a few times in the mission where you try to get the Agincourt to the gate, when the Serkr corvettes fire their beams but miss.)

The characters were done really well, it was nice to see the development of the main ones throughout the campaign through both missions and the fiction viewer/command briefings etc. Noemi's development from wouldn't-hurt-a-fly to a killer fighter pilot especially. I saw a bit of myself when I read the part about the ants - although I probably wouldn't mind ants fighting I usually avoid killing bugs myself. :)

I found this quite challenging (I play on medium), and I died quite a few times through the campaign, but I didn't really mind because I felt motivated to keep repeating the missions until I could complete them. One thing that made me feel a little annoyed though was in the Cathage assualt mission where I failed for losing the Yangtze during the retreat - from the GTVA bombers - restarted from the second checkpoint and then found out that the Yangtze ends up being destroyed anyway, but it's not really that big of a deal.

The music was done excellently - it was able to capture the mood of what was going on very well. Only thing that annoyed me was continually hearing the music that plays when you get down to something around 1% in the mission where you defend the cruiser from the rogue GTVA pilots (and also in the mission where the Elder is assasinated, but the annoyance just came from the aformentioned mission), but that was just because I didn't like it personally - it was still a good fit.

Again, a masterpiece, and kudos to the Blue Planet team. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on August 11, 2010, 11:27:34 am
Just finished the campaign ! War In Heaven is totally awesome !! (Well, I managed to finished the Delenda Est after I went into Fred 2 and modify some values) :)
Can't wait for the second part. However, since I didn't have enought time to read all the comms in this last mission, I didn't found anywhere a mention concerning
Spoiler:
Commander Bei
.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 11, 2010, 01:07:55 pm
Watch the final cutscene. At the very end of it, after the credits, there's a dialogue between Sam and his father.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 11, 2010, 02:28:51 pm
First update to WiH has been released. This small update to Core should resolve most issues in missions. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70745.msg1401451#msg1401451)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 11, 2010, 02:32:23 pm
Changelog repost for the lazy:

Updates to Core

- Weapon loadout descriptions updated for UEF weapons
- Solaris turret angles fixed
- Scalpel shield damage increased
- Dirk tweaked to be more reliable at the expense of velocity and turning
- Cavalier damage increased, spin-up time increased
- Fixed vishnan beam sound when support ship finishes rearming
- Scripting updates for The Blade Itself, mission behavior now more reliable
- Key-presses in directives and training messages now display correct keys if they've been remapped by player
- Fixed The Cost of War checkpoint notification
- Delenda Est difficulty tweaked and fixed reported issues
- Deals in Shadows altered by addition of GEF gauntlet and traitor-branch if you shoot down the Elder's shuttle
- Spelling and grammar fixes in missions
- Lots of other small mission tweaks

Please report any issues you encounter. Feedback on Delenda Est difficulty is especially welcome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 11, 2010, 03:28:52 pm
I BROKE IT!!!

Code: [Select]

LUA ERROR: [string "bp2-csc-sct.tbm - On Game Init"]:91: attempt to concatenate local 'targetname' (a nil value)

------------------------------------------------------------------
ADE Debug:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: (null)
Name of: (null)
Function type: (null)
Defined on: 0
Upvalues: 0

Source: (null)
Short source:
Current line: 0
- Function line: 0
------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------------------------------------------
LUA Stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------



In "The Blade Itself", IIRC triggered by me targeting a bomb (with the bomb targeting control)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 11, 2010, 03:30:32 pm
Should be fixed in the patch we released an hour ago.

EDIT: Aaaand it's not. ****.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Renegade Paladin on August 11, 2010, 03:34:01 pm
The Yangtze shoots the Indus with its torpedoes while targeting the GTCv Hydra in Aristeia because it's between it and the target. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 11, 2010, 03:34:55 pm
The Yangtze shoots the Indus with its torpedoes while targeting the GTCv Hydra in Aristeia because it's between it and the target. 

I don't think they're armed at that point so it should be okay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 11, 2010, 04:28:44 pm
Should be fixed in the patch we released an hour ago.

EDIT: Aaaand it's not. ****.

Haha, yeah I was already using the patch IIRC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Solatar on August 11, 2010, 05:07:51 pm

Spoiler:
BEWARE TEH UBERSATH!  Escorted by none other than the freaky player squadron from Derelict.  Admittedly, I '~-k'ed the Carthage just to see. . .
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 11, 2010, 05:08:31 pm

Spoiler:
BEWARE TEH UBERSATH!  Escorted by none other than the freaky player squadron from Derelict.  Admittedly, I '~-k'ed the Carthage just to see. . .

:nervous:

Did it have enough guns?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Solatar on August 11, 2010, 05:37:31 pm
Plenty of guns, but I think the music is what made it.  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 11, 2010, 05:39:49 pm
Yeah, when I realised that it was the 212th Silver Scythes, I did a little fanboy squeal, it must be admitted.

Seems they've finally gone up in the world, no longer in the boonies but flying off a top of the line Destroyer, and in some of the GTA's newest space superiority fighters  :yes:

(I know that this isn't the same squadron as the Cold Element continuity, merely a nod to one of the community's more famous campaigns, but a man can dream, a man can dream.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MP-Ryan on August 11, 2010, 07:15:39 pm
So Batt, do you still need me to test the file you sent or is it now in the new core?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 11, 2010, 07:25:15 pm
So Batt, do you still need me to test the file you sent or is it now in the new core?

It's in, no worries.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 11, 2010, 07:43:51 pm
the ubersath? wtf?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 11, 2010, 08:13:09 pm
Kill the Carthage and find out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 11, 2010, 08:29:40 pm
Just did. All I can say is... ROFL.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 11, 2010, 08:54:02 pm
I did it first, back on like... page 20 or so.

I actually found out about it looking at the mission in Notepad++, and was like "I've gotta try that"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 11, 2010, 10:34:19 pm
Yeah, when I realised that it was the 212th Silver Scythes, I did a little fanboy squeal, it must be admitted.

Seems they've finally gone up in the world, no longer in the boonies but flying off a top of the line Destroyer, and in some of the GTA's newest space superiority fighters  :yes:

(I know that this isn't the same squadron as the Cold Element continuity, merely a nod to one of the community's more famous campaigns, but a man can dream, a man can dream.)
Well given that Blue Planet includes alternate realities and all, it's fully possible that Mackie's alternate self was in that wing. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 12, 2010, 01:56:58 am
Which mission spawns the Ubersath?  Delena Est, or the one before it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 12, 2010, 02:05:15 am
Delenda Est
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Venox on August 12, 2010, 02:59:29 am
/unlurk

Hey all, lurker here. I don't hang around the community often as I really don't fit in with such a stellar collection of talented modders, modellers, coders, voice actors, and just general awesome individuals in general. I would have absolutely nothing constructive to add and would probably seem like a blubbering, incoherent n00b who tried to act what he was talking about! Everyone here continues to amaze me with what I feel just isn't a game, but the FS2 SCP as a story-telling platform itself. The fact is, regardless of what I'm about to write here in this little post - good or bad - buried all the way back on the 24th...or 25th? page now... you guys, the entire SCP community, will continue rolling on churning out great, beautiful stuff, even if no one reads my post because... well, TL,DR! But, that's the way I like it.

Anyhow, I'm here in this thread to obviously talk about BP2: War in Heaven. . . where to start? Not that I have a hundred, million things to talk about as numerous as the stars themselves about it, more like...

What could I possibly say that hasn't already been said? What could I praise that hasn't already been praised? I had absolutely zero technical/gameplay problems with the mod, so I can't really criticize such problems like others have been having; quite the contrary, I consider myself so very lucky that I was able to run this mod with maximum detail, advanced graphics, with anti-aliasing (I can't stand jaggies!) and not have my computer explode on me. I felt like you get the full experience of the story that way.

But what experience? One that in my opinion, transcends stories of not other, also brilliant FreeSpace2 mods, but that of literature and film. War in Heaven was something moved me. No, I don't mean in the literal, physical "OMG THE MUSIC WAS SO AWESOME BLEW ME OUT OF MY CHAIR W-WAIT DID THAT NARAYANA JUST NAIL A TEV PERSEUS FROM 25,000K?! *goes flying out of chair*" (although that'd be pretty awesome), but that it simply...made me think about war. About life.

Life lost.
Life created.
Life saved.

Destroyers, Creators, and Preservers respectively. I'm not just Über-Alpha-One, but Noemi Laporte. And yet at the same time, I am not Noemi Laporte. She made decisions that were not up to me. But to her. To someone who truly was, not just the collaboration of a skilled mod team, but actually a real fictional character who I felt was the best part of the story.

Why? Combat high. The side of Noemi who is in increasingly dangerous situations. For while I couldn't dictate her actions on the flight deck, on Mars, on land... when she's in that cockpit, and the adrenaline starts flowing, guess who's in control? Not Noemi Laporte, but me. You. Whoever else sat behind those controls. We are her other half, the side hungry for more. She was flying, but yet I could control how bloodthirsty, or human she would be in combat. It was up to us whether she'd die in a blaze of glory or survive another nerve-rattling sortie. Yes yes, I know, it's still just my opinion (and believe me, I know that many will probably disagree with me and call me crazy) and my take on things, I know that literally, the story has a set path but... still, it felt like when she talks about being afraid of her other side, of embracing it at times, hating it at times... it was my fault.

I've played many SCP mods and stories over the years. Seen the many alternate universes that the story of FreeSpace itself has encompassed. I never really thought of any as superior or inferior to others, just different ways of telling tales of epic struggles of survival and warfare. How I determine whether a story is great and praise worthy, is if months and even years later, I remember every second of them. Back in 2007, I came across Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius and thought - nothing would ever be the same again. Little did I take into account back then, that the only thing that would exceed the original BP mod, was BP2. And it's not even a complete story that I've seen yet. I could probably go on to write dozens of more paragraphs about everything else, but I'm sure I'm losing folks attention by this point!

As I eagerly and patiently await for the next installment, just as I awaited for War in Heaven, as did many others who lie silently, lurking but secretly appreciative of not just what Darius and his team do, but everyone here does, I just wanted to say thanks guys.

Thanks for taking me to a whole 'nother universe, guys. Bleak as it seems - it's beautiful.

Yeah, it's corny. It's TL,DR - DEAL!! But keep on kicking ass. I've taken up enough of everyone's time already! Back to lurking.

/lurk
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: swashmebuckle on August 12, 2010, 04:55:04 am
Quick problem report before bed here--I just started the campaign with a new pilot (cloned from a finished Vassago's Dirge pilot if that makes any difference), and I didn't get a debrief after the first mission.  The text box read something like "No debrief for mission xxxx.fs2" and it registered me as having failed the mission (I had lost the medical ship I think, so 2 ships got away besides the cruisers).  I downloaded all the bp2 and AoA and MediaVP files just after release but didn't get started on this one until tonight, so I replaced my bp2 core vp with the August 11th updated one from the release thread.  I'd check out the mission file myself, but X11 and Darwine have decided to flake out on me tonight :(  The mission itself was awesome though! :yes:

Sorry if this was covered before--the thread is a bit long for 3 in the morning.  Using 3.6.12 release build on mac.  Cheers
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 12, 2010, 04:57:06 am
If something is working strangely, use a fresh new pilot. I suggest letting the medical ship die on intention in a playthrough (cheat if you must) to see if the bug is gone or not.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 12, 2010, 05:23:28 am
omfg. I just took a look at the "BP massive battle" mission.

one. frakking. half. of. a. frame. per. second.

but it was GLORIOUS. Once the ships are optimized, and I get a new PC someday, I'm going to play that mission again, as a testament to just how awesome FS can look.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 12, 2010, 05:27:01 am
The Maya program can average triangles etc to reduce poly's etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 12, 2010, 05:32:01 am
That is not the problem with our models.

The problem is that the Karuna, Sanctus, Narayana and ... ALL UEF fighters EXCEPT for the Uhlan, are not optimized for in-game usage. They don't have LODs for the most part, and they use waaaaaaaaay too many textures.
The latter part is the important bit for FSO, thus our models need re-UVing to reduce texture counts. The Karuna, for example, uses 25 unique textures, which is about 20 too many.

That is to say, the base LOD0 meshes are fine (except for wonky smoothing in places), it's just that the other LOD meshes are missing.
In addition, they lack Debris pieces for better asplodination.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 12, 2010, 07:55:34 am
The Maya program can average triangles etc to reduce poly's etc.

Autodesk products, to my knowledge, aren't used very much in this community. It's mostly Blender, Wings and/or PCS2 here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 12, 2010, 08:01:21 am
The Maya program can average triangles etc to reduce poly's etc.

Autodesk products, to my knowledge, aren't used very much in this community. It's mostly Blender, Wings and/or PCS2 here.

Usually import/export is safe, but Maya has an option to turn models or parts of a model into their own LOD version. I don't know if Blender, Wings etc do that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 12, 2010, 08:08:40 am
But, as I pointed out, that's not the problem with our models (not the biggest one, anyway).

Also, Androgeos, PCS2 is NOT a modelling program. It's a converter to convert models to the engine's pof format.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 12, 2010, 08:37:45 am
Its mostly an editor for the .pof format for some smart folk who do the .pof conversion in the actual modelling program (Screw the haters, the .pof export plugin for max works way way better than thT collada mess :P )

Autodesk products, to my knowledge, aren't used very much in this community. It's mostly Blender, Wings and/or PCS2 here.
Well you are wrong :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 12, 2010, 08:45:32 am
Its mostly an editor for the .pof format for some smart folk who do the .pof conversion in the actual modelling program (Screw the haters, the .pof export plugin for max works way way better than thT collada mess :P )

IF you have a version of Max that can use it, that is.

Anyway, we now return you to your regularly scheduled WiH talk.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on August 12, 2010, 09:53:49 am
Anyway, we now return you to your regularly scheduled WiH talk.

Heh, seeing the similarities between the Sol war and the NTF Rebellion (an 18 month war between Terrans over ideological issues ? Sounds awfully familiar), I subconsciously expected the UEF to deploy some big-ass ship to wtfpwn GTVA fleet and turn the tide of war, especially after hearing all the talk about
Spoiler:
Byrne's secret project back at Earth.

Spoiler:
Hell, I was sure that it would be the ship jumping in at the end of Delenda Est. Imagine how my hopes were crushed and how disappointed I was to see that instead of some UEF-version of the Colossus, I got Steele's flagship :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Madcat on August 12, 2010, 09:58:21 am
If you're still interested in spelling mistakes, I found one...
briefing page 3 of "One Perfect Moment":

"high-stess"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 12, 2010, 10:04:54 am
Ahem.

The Imperieuse is not Steele's flagship. The Atreus is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on August 12, 2010, 10:08:43 am
Dirk: Aspect-Seeking Corkscrew-Missile -- "aspect-seeking" is a canon term at least, but "corkscrew"? Well at least it's very useful for anyone who knows what it means. :P Unless it's military jargon in which case I have no idea what it means. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 12, 2010, 10:10:48 am
Corkscrew refers to its action as it chases the target. Observe the next time you fire a volley of them, they appear to follow the target in a corkscrew motion (who knows why, perhaps it assists with maneuverability if fired in a dogfight?)

It's not military jargon, don't worry. I was in that department. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 12, 2010, 10:36:07 am
The Imperieuse is Steele's dragon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on August 12, 2010, 10:38:57 am
Corkscrew refers to its action as it chases the target. Observe the next time you fire a volley of them, they appear to follow the target in a corkscrew motion (who knows why, perhaps it assists with maneuverability if fired in a dogfight?)

It's not military jargon, don't worry. I was in that department. :P
I assumed it was meant to tell the player that they lead-pursue, though I could be wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 12, 2010, 11:08:17 am
/unlurk

Hey all, lurker here. I don't hang around the community often as I really don't fit in with such a stellar collection of talented modders, modellers, coders, voice actors, and just general awesome individuals in general. I would have absolutely nothing constructive to add and would probably seem like a blubbering, incoherent n00b who tried to act what he was talking about! Everyone here continues to amaze me with what I feel just isn't a game, but the FS2 SCP as a story-telling platform itself. The fact is, regardless of what I'm about to write here in this little post - good or bad - buried all the way back on the 24th...or 25th? page now... you guys, the entire SCP community, will continue rolling on churning out great, beautiful stuff, even if no one reads my post because... well, TL,DR! But, that's the way I like it.

Anyhow, I'm here in this thread to obviously talk about BP2: War in Heaven. . . where to start? Not that I have a hundred, million things to talk about as numerous as the stars themselves about it, more like...

What could I possibly say that hasn't already been said? What could I praise that hasn't already been praised? I had absolutely zero technical/gameplay problems with the mod, so I can't really criticize such problems like others have been having; quite the contrary, I consider myself so very lucky that I was able to run this mod with maximum detail, advanced graphics, with anti-aliasing (I can't stand jaggies!) and not have my computer explode on me. I felt like you get the full experience of the story that way.

But what experience? One that in my opinion, transcends stories of not other, also brilliant FreeSpace2 mods, but that of literature and film. War in Heaven was something moved me. No, I don't mean in the literal, physical "OMG THE MUSIC WAS SO AWESOME BLEW ME OUT OF MY CHAIR W-WAIT DID THAT NARAYANA JUST NAIL A TEV PERSEUS FROM 25,000K?! *goes flying out of chair*" (although that'd be pretty awesome), but that it simply...made me think about war. About life.

Life lost.
Life created.
Life saved.

Destroyers, Creators, and Preservers respectively. I'm not just Über-Alpha-One, but Noemi Laporte. And yet at the same time, I am not Noemi Laporte. She made decisions that were not up to me. But to her. To someone who truly was, not just the collaboration of a skilled mod team, but actually a real fictional character who I felt was the best part of the story.

Why? Combat high. The side of Noemi who is in increasingly dangerous situations. For while I couldn't dictate her actions on the flight deck, on Mars, on land... when she's in that cockpit, and the adrenaline starts flowing, guess who's in control? Not Noemi Laporte, but me. You. Whoever else sat behind those controls. We are her other half, the side hungry for more. She was flying, but yet I could control how bloodthirsty, or human she would be in combat. It was up to us whether she'd die in a blaze of glory or survive another nerve-rattling sortie. Yes yes, I know, it's still just my opinion (and believe me, I know that many will probably disagree with me and call me crazy) and my take on things, I know that literally, the story has a set path but... still, it felt like when she talks about being afraid of her other side, of embracing it at times, hating it at times... it was my fault.

I've played many SCP mods and stories over the years. Seen the many alternate universes that the story of FreeSpace itself has encompassed. I never really thought of any as superior or inferior to others, just different ways of telling tales of epic struggles of survival and warfare. How I determine whether a story is great and praise worthy, is if months and even years later, I remember every second of them. Back in 2007, I came across Blue Planet: Age of Aquarius and thought - nothing would ever be the same again. Little did I take into account back then, that the only thing that would exceed the original BP mod, was BP2. And it's not even a complete story that I've seen yet. I could probably go on to write dozens of more paragraphs about everything else, but I'm sure I'm losing folks attention by this point!

As I eagerly and patiently await for the next installment, just as I awaited for War in Heaven, as did many others who lie silently, lurking but secretly appreciative of not just what Darius and his team do, but everyone here does, I just wanted to say thanks guys.

Thanks for taking me to a whole 'nother universe, guys. Bleak as it seems - it's beautiful.

Yeah, it's corny. It's TL,DR - DEAL!! But keep on kicking ass. I've taken up enough of everyone's time already! Back to lurking.

/lurk

Thanks so much. Morale +10!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 12, 2010, 02:20:53 pm
BATTUTA, WHAT DOES THE SCOUTER SAY ABOUT THE MORALE LEVEL?

Spoiler:
I apologize in advance for this :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 12, 2010, 02:24:10 pm
BATTUTA, WHAT DOES THE SCOUTER SAY ABOUT THE MORALE LEVEL?

Spoiler:
I apologize in advance for this :p

RELEASE IT SPOON! RELEASE EVERYTHING!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 12, 2010, 02:29:58 pm
I think he was fishing for the response that morale is OVER 9000!!!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 12, 2010, 02:35:23 pm
I think he was fishing for the response that morale is OVER 9000!!!!!

Yeah but my response was also a DBZ quote. So HA
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on August 12, 2010, 02:44:14 pm
Yeah but my response was also a DBZ quote.

Really? THEN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS GOING TO DIE!

But on a more "serious" note: After watching the BP massive battle, I am a bit confused. Not because the fps dropped to single-digits for most of it, but mainly because the UEF won, quite deceisively too. With 2 Destroyers to spare.

Is there beam jamming implemented in the mission, was it perhaps buggy behaviour of the beams due to the low framerate, or is that fabled superiority of GTVA-beams really not that big?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on August 12, 2010, 02:50:29 pm
Probably because Solaris-class destroyers own everything.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 12, 2010, 02:55:50 pm
Yeah but my response was also a DBZ quote.

Really? THEN THE WHOLE UNIVERSE IS GOING TO DIE!

But on a more "serious" note: After watching the BP massive battle, I am a bit confused. Not because the fps dropped to single-digits for most of it, but mainly because the UEF won, quite deceisively too. With 2 Destroyers to spare.

Is there beam jamming implemented in the mission, was it perhaps buggy behaviour of the beams due to the low framerate, or is that fabled superiority of GTVA-beams really not that big?

Replay the mission a few times and you'll see that the outcome is wildly unpredictable...which is why neither side would ever commit to a full fleet action.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 12, 2010, 03:22:05 pm
I'm tempted to pit some UEF simulated ships against GTVA simulated ships, to see combat performance under certain angles and tactics.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 12, 2010, 03:35:27 pm
is massive battle supposed to run decently on modern computers? 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 12, 2010, 03:36:55 pm
is massive battle supposed to run decently on modern computers? 

Heeeeeeeeell no.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 12, 2010, 03:39:32 pm
just making sure. :)

i rolled back video drivers to see if it fixes the Solaris skybox, but I can't really test it out now as i'm in the middle of moving back to skool.  so i ran massive battle to see what would happen :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 12, 2010, 03:40:52 pm
Consider it a benchmark.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 12, 2010, 03:49:08 pm
Maybe 3DMark will want to use WiH to stress-test videocards. :P

On a serious note, Massive Battle seems to run on 2-3 fps on my PC at the start, going to about 10-20 fps once the beams calm down, and I'm running a really fast rig.

edit: so no, it won't run fast on modern PC's.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 12, 2010, 04:05:18 pm
I guess it runs decently on high-end rigs.

I am not 100% certain what Battuta's intent was when he created it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: hypnagogic on August 12, 2010, 04:45:53 pm
I just want to say that I think WiH is really amazing; excellent work and integration of fiction into the storyline. An amazing campaign so far. I can actually see the scenes that are written about--the writing is some of the best I've seen in Freespace2 or any sci-fi fan fiction for that matter. The missions are also great. Not since Homeworld have I felt as bound up in the stories of the characters.

If you ever need help with voice acting please let me know, it's something I do in real life and would be happy to volunteer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 12, 2010, 05:03:49 pm
I just want to say that I think WiH is really amazing; excellent work and integration of fiction into the storyline. An amazing campaign so far. I can actually see the scenes that are written about--the writing is some of the best I've seen in Freespace2 or any sci-fi fan fiction for that matter. The missions are also great. Not since Homeworld have I felt as bound up in the stories of the characters.

If you ever need help with voice acting please let me know, it's something I do in real life and would be happy to volunteer.

Thank you! We're really surprised at and grateful for how overwhelmingly positive the reaction has been.

And if you're a voice actor, yes, we absolutely 100% need you. Could you send me a PM with your email?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 12, 2010, 05:23:38 pm
So you are going to put voice acting in War in Heaven too?

If so, I also offer my services.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 12, 2010, 05:37:47 pm
I'd also like to volunteer for that. And if the Labouchere ever makes an appearance, don't you dare give her to anyone else to voice act :P

And now something completely different.
Will there be a glide mod, like the one that came as part of the old 3.6.12 feature pack? I just love to glide  ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 12, 2010, 05:39:57 pm
I'd like to volunteer as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Insomniac34 on August 12, 2010, 05:45:48 pm
QUESTION: Is there any way to activate the new radar symbols? I have the 3d radar, but not the icons included in 3.6.12.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Madcat on August 12, 2010, 05:57:31 pm
QUESTION: Is there any way to activate the new radar symbols? I have the 3d radar, but not the icons included in 3.6.12.

Yes, download the icons... it's a separate, optional file in the 3.6.12 release thread.

Is there anyway to target the next nav buoy in the Kentauroi Race? Except for "Target under reticle"? I hate flying hair close to hard objects while having to look on my radar for the next waypoint...  :D
So far my record is, IIRC, 2:39 in the mission stats after warpout.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on August 12, 2010, 06:03:01 pm
Is there anyway to target the next nav buoy in the Kentauroi Race? Except for "Target under reticle"? I hate flying hair close to hard objects while having to look on my radar for the next waypoint...  :D
So far my record is, IIRC, 2:39 in the mission stats after warpout.

Shift+T twice happens to select the next buoy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on August 12, 2010, 06:18:28 pm
is massive battle supposed to run decently on modern computers? 

Heeeeeeeeell no.

I haven't seen such a frame-drop in a looooong, looooong time. Actually, I don't remember seeing anything similar to this at all. Still, as soon as all the Karunas were destroyed, this slideshow changed into a real 60FPS battle :)

I didn't know that the Solaris class was so powerful, in the end all 3 destroyers lived to see another battle. What kind of stats and weaponry those monsters have ? I also wonder how well they would perform against the Colossus or a Sathanas.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 12, 2010, 06:28:06 pm
is massive battle supposed to run decently on modern computers? 

Heeeeeeeeell no.

I haven't seen such a frame-drop in a looooong, looooong time. Actually, I don't remember seeing anything similar to this at all. Still, as soon as all the Karunas were destroyed, this slideshow changed into a real 60FPS battle :)

I didn't know that the Solaris class was so powerful, in the end all 3 destroyers lived to see another battle. What kind of stats and weaponry those monsters have ? I also wonder how well they would perform against the Colossus or a Sathanas.

http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/solaris-poster.png
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 12, 2010, 06:30:20 pm
is massive battle supposed to run decently on modern computers? 

Heeeeeeeeell no.

I haven't seen such a frame-drop in a looooong, looooong time. Actually, I don't remember seeing anything similar to this at all. Still, as soon as all the Karunas were destroyed, this slideshow changed into a real 60FPS battle :)

I didn't know that the Solaris class was so powerful, in the end all 3 destroyers lived to see another battle. What kind of stats and weaponry those monsters have ? I also wonder how well they would perform against the Colossus or a Sathanas.

They're only par with a Raynor and Serkr Team could take one out without a scratch. Sometimes that battle goes the UEF's way, sometimes the GTVA's.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 12, 2010, 06:31:05 pm
I didn't know that the Solaris class was so powerful, in the end all 3 destroyers lived to see another battle. What kind of stats and weaponry those monsters have ? I also wonder how well they would perform against the Colossus or a Sathanas.

See stats here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UED_Solaris).

Against a Sathanas, well.... Mathematically speaking, the Sathanas will destroy the Solaris in roughly 5 seconds, if it can bring all BFReds to bear. Conversely, it will take ... uhh ... what we call a very long time for the Solaris to eat through the 1.000.000 HP the Sath has.

Against the Collossus, the same thing applies regarding the 1 million HP, but since the Collies' damage output is much lower, the Solaris has a greater chance of knocking out the Collies' beams.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 12, 2010, 06:38:26 pm
Quote
Weyland-Yutani
Nothing good will come out from this
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 12, 2010, 07:03:17 pm
Damn, speaking of the radar icons I meant to check the .vp to see what was there (Oh wait, my hard drive crashed, got to wait four months, wheee), when I first played a mission with it there didn't seem to be icons for the UEF still, though I remember the Tev fighter icons were pretty big. The fact it uses the icon for the fighter it is was awesome though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: swamper123 on August 12, 2010, 07:09:06 pm
Thank BP team for your effort creating first, age of aquarius , and now war in heaven, I was playing some levels,but well my computer lags a lot even at mininum requirements , i will play it when i have more ram and video memory, thanks a lot again,  ;)


P.D: sorry about my english (:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 12, 2010, 07:30:40 pm
Quote
Blue Planet: War in Heaven Tech Description

Prior to the outbreak of the UEF-GTVA war, the Solaris class Destroyers were the most controversial pieces of military hardware in use by the Federation. They represented a massive investment of resources and manpower that, according to critics, was fundamentally unnecessary. Designed by an ad-hoc committee of the Federation's best engineering and tactical thinkers and built at Mars' Bradbury Fleet Yards, these enormous warships seemed like answers to a nonexistent problem.
Had the UEF decided not to make those three Solaris destroyers. How different would the war have gone?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 12, 2010, 07:50:24 pm
They might have had 8 or so light destroyers maybe being able to have good footing with fast response, who's to say. All I know is they DO have 3 destroyers and they seem to work well as long as the Tev's are bottlenecked.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FoeHammer on August 12, 2010, 09:23:53 pm
How many Titans do the Tevs have anyways?  We see three over the course of BP, but are there any that aren't involved in the Tev-Fed war?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 12, 2010, 09:41:52 pm
Hey I have a music request for the next release.

please put some of The Pillows in there.

I know its ridiculous but some of their stuff is completely applicable such as "I think I Can," "Fool on The Planet," "Hybrid Rainbows," and "One Life"

The go good along with the Bei's because of their Oriental(?) descent and just because フリクリ is awesome. (What's Laporte's descent? Simms?)

if you want, I have those songs on file if you want them to listen to.

"I Think I Can" would go great for a massive battle against a Tev destroyer. Why? just find the lyrics, you'll see what I mean
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 12, 2010, 09:49:37 pm
'Noemi Laporte' sounds like a latino name to me...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 12, 2010, 10:17:35 pm
How many Titans do the Tevs have anyways?  We see three over the course of BP, but are there any that aren't involved in the Tev-Fed war?

Three?
The Temeraire, Imperieuse, and...?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 12, 2010, 10:23:45 pm
are there any 14th BG defecting ships that will be seen in WiH?

The Temeraire?  :(

(I have other reasons for wanting to see that ship on the Fed's side) :warp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 12, 2010, 10:25:19 pm
The Temeraire is still GTVA, probably undergoing extreme analysis to find out just what happened to the 14th BG.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: blowfish on August 12, 2010, 11:42:43 pm
The Solace defected...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 13, 2010, 12:01:21 am
As did the Labouchere and Duke.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 13, 2010, 12:39:37 am
The last I read in the notes is that the Temeraire and a few others were somewhat rendered inoperable (ie missing?) due to mutiny or internal rebellion. Not much other information is given.

Also, what happened to the Sanctuary?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 13, 2010, 12:47:57 am
The last I read in the notes is that the Temeraire and a few others were somewhat rendered inoperable (ie missing?) due to mutiny or internal rebellion. Not much other information is given.

Also, what happened to the Sanctuary?

No, the crews fought and rendered the ships incapable of performing their duty. They were withdrawn. Save the Duke, Labouchere and Solace (and the Sanctuary) which defected and joined the UEF wholesale (Though it was by no means a unanimous process)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 13, 2010, 01:04:48 am
The Sanctuary is probably doing something sekret. Perhaps involved with Byrne's big sekret project.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: k19 on August 13, 2010, 01:22:24 am
WiH possible rivals FS1 in emotions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 13, 2010, 01:32:52 am
WiH possible rivals FS1 in emotions.


Hooray!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 13, 2010, 02:13:50 am
Spoiler:
Beat the Saturn mission, medium, first try. I like the new balancing :P Interesting how badly the UEF got screwed though. At least more dead Karunas means less lag for me!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Saturn on August 13, 2010, 02:15:11 am
 :yes: What a great campaign :yes: The team is very talented, thank all of you for your efforts. There is not much praise left that hasn't been said but thank you it is great.

I have a couple of questions, as I am playing this on a Toshiba Tecra  M4 laptop and I think the Video card is a Ge-force 6200 TE when I get to the mission with the Carthage the frame rate is a bit slow .5fps. I think I have everything turned on and maxed out. What would be some the best settings flags and settings to delete that would have the most impact on frame rate with the least impact on the visuals (yes I know, I want it all)?

The 2nd question concerns the load outs, is it my video card  or are all the missile and gun graphics (on the left) very small about 1/4 scale of FS2?


Thanks again!!! :)

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 13, 2010, 02:20:48 am
I believe the loadout graphics are going to end up small as they use models instead of bitmaps.

As for Delenda Est, the best way to improve performance is to wait for us to get those models improved.  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 13, 2010, 02:28:47 am
WiH possible rivals FS1 in emotions.


"emotions" covers a lot of things- particularly, for me, the "nostalgia goggles" through which I usually view FS1- but if I cast those aside, I find WiH much more emotionally satisfying than FS1. I don't think FS1's writing/plot is as bad as certain parties tend to make out, but WiH is certainly more believable and atmospheric. (So is AoA, for that matter, but WiH is more in the same strain as FS1- fighting a desperate war for your very survival, on the losing side.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 13, 2010, 03:03:48 am
WiH possible rivals FS1 in emotions.


"emotions" covers a lot of things- particularly, for me, the "nostalgia goggles" through which I usually view FS1- but if I cast those aside, I find WiH much more emotionally satisfying than FS1. I don't think FS1's writing/plot is as bad as certain parties tend to make out, but WiH is certainly more believable and atmospheric. (So is AoA, for that matter, but WiH is more in the same strain as FS1- fighting a desperate war for your very survival, on the losing side.)
I agree with most of the things in this post minus AoA. AoA was more like an acid trip.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 13, 2010, 03:12:30 am
I agree with most of the things in this post minus AoA. AoA was more like an acid trip.

wat

[EDIT]: added quote since I topped the next page
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 13, 2010, 03:28:10 am
i've seen a couple people say stuff about the re-balanced/patched mission(s), but I never saw a post/thread about an update.  o.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 13, 2010, 03:36:57 am
You mean this post? http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70746.msg1401460#msg1401460

Or this? http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70745.msg1401451#msg1401451
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on August 13, 2010, 03:53:31 am
Spoiler:
I tried the capship flying mission yesterday (or was it the day before? Anyway). I don't know how I went, other than the fact that I was blown up by the meson bomb because I was skeptical that it could destroy my frigate from 10km away (I think it was about that). Needless to say I was wrong.

How come that bomb was more powerful than the ones that were used to destroy the Knossos? Couldn't you survive them from only 3km away (in a fighter! But there was a Sobek there too, at a simliar distance if I recall correctly and it wasn't vaporised)? Not that I don't think there's a reasonable explanation, it's just that I don't know what it is  :nervous:

Also, I forgot to mention this - I recognised one particular bit of music in the Saturn mission as having been used on Top Gear before. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 13, 2010, 04:37:32 am
The meson bomb is a plot device that runs on phlebotinum. It's stated specifically that you won't be able to escape the blast (I forget when), so you'll have to consider options other than running from it.

In-universe, it was probably a modified bomb for military purposes, using more explosive material (and denser/better material- this is decades after FS2, after all).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 13, 2010, 05:10:03 am
Will there be a glide mod, like the one that came as part of the old 3.6.12 feature pack?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on August 13, 2010, 05:31:23 am
Well at least it took 28 pages before it got asked.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 13, 2010, 09:43:11 am
what he means is, no.  unless someone else hacks it in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Viko on August 13, 2010, 11:34:47 am
Well i am a little late (28 pages of reply) i've just finished the campaign and i can't wait to see the second part.

You guys did an outstanding work and thank you so much for the very good Time playing this campaign  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on August 13, 2010, 02:38:34 pm
Hi everyone

Just finished the campaign and would like to congratulate you on an outstanding job.   :D  I've played the Director's Cut of AoA and loved the voice acting, and really want to see WiH voice acted as well.

Again, terrific job, although cliffhangers like that are just plain mean.  :doubt:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nissan on August 13, 2010, 02:41:32 pm
The short version: "Well worth the wait" doesn't even begin to cover it. :D

The longer version:
Spoiler:
War in Heaven evoked emotion like no other campaign I've played. The way you guys set up seemingly hopeful events, then dashed them to the ground... tragic every time, but unbelievably well done. The events leading up to the arrival of the Imperiuse made it clear that the UEF force was doomed, but that didn't make it any more horrifying to see a GTVA destroyer emerge onto the scene. (Well, I say horrifying, but I was happy to see a Titan make an appearance since that's my favorite capship. :p)

But the most powerful scene for me was, by far, the arrival of the second UEF frigate in "What Binds Us". By that point I had conditioned myself to expect GTVA surprises, and the whole mission I was expecting a Deimos or an Aeolus to appear and blast the Indus. To instead see another UEF ship enter the area and destroy the "first sane thing that's happened since the start of this war"... I was too shocked, too deflated to react. I couldn't bring myself to shoot at any of the GTVA ships and just watched my wingmen and the Indus take care of things.

On that note, I think one of the neatest things you guys did, as far as creating the atmosphere, was to portray the GTVA as a completely foreign enemy. As much as it stung to have to kill Xinny and Zero, to battle the 212th, and to attack the Carthage, these were all just constant reminders of how little these names meant to Noemi and the rest of the good guys. I went into it thinking the UEF warriors might be hoping for a peaceful resolution (like me), but everything that transpired made me realize how little the main characters would want that and how unlikely such a resolution would be even if they did.

Awesome as it was, I have to echo the complaints about lag throughout the campaign. People were mentioning 20-30 fps during Delenda Est... honestly, I would've been happy to get something like that over the 7-8 fps I was often playing through in that mission (which, granted, is in some part because I play on a laptop). In all honesty, I found myself playing more for the story and it was good enough to make me overlook the choppy gameplay, which I understand was mostly just a result of the ship models, but I know you guys worked just as hard to make the gameplay excellent and would like to experience that as it's meant to be.

Other than that, though, there wasn't much in the way of errors, though there was one weird issue I found in "One Perfect Moment"...

Spoiler:
Just for fun, I decided to fly close to the surface of the Moon while on the way to the city. As I started to get kinda close, the city started to vanish, like a giant eraser was being dragged across from one side to the other (yeah I suck at explaining these things), and after the city had completely vanished I collided with something invisible. After I turned and flew up a few meters, the city was there again and there weren't any more problems. It doesn't seem like a terribly important issue, but figured it was worth mentioning.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Madcat on August 13, 2010, 04:29:47 pm
Shift+T twice happens to select the next buoy.

Thanks for that, I mapped that to a joystick button and now it works great!
Still, I wonder how Axem did the nav points in Vassago's Dirge, they selected the next one automatically (and had green rings!).

Now I managed to get 2:24 with the Kentauroi and 2:01 with the Lao Tze. The latter one is ridiculously fast and maneuverable...  :eek2:  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 13, 2010, 04:31:49 pm
The short version: "Well worth the wait" doesn't even begin to cover it. :D

The longer version:
Spoiler:
War in Heaven evoked emotion like no other campaign I've played. The way you guys set up seemingly hopeful events, then dashed them to the ground... tragic every time, but unbelievably well done. The events leading up to the arrival of the Imperiuse made it clear that the UEF force was doomed, but that didn't make it any more horrifying to see a GTVA destroyer emerge onto the scene. (Well, I say horrifying, but I was happy to see a Titan make an appearance since that's my favorite capship. :p)

But the most powerful scene for me was, by far, the arrival of the second UEF frigate in "What Binds Us". By that point I had conditioned myself to expect GTVA surprises, and the whole mission I was expecting a Deimos or an Aeolus to appear and blast the Indus. To instead see another UEF ship enter the area and destroy the "first sane thing that's happened since the start of this war"... I was too shocked, too deflated to react. I couldn't bring myself to shoot at any of the GTVA ships and just watched my wingmen and the Indus take care of things.

On that note, I think one of the neatest things you guys did, as far as creating the atmosphere, was to portray the GTVA as a completely foreign enemy. As much as it stung to have to kill Xinny and Zero, to battle the 212th, and to attack the Carthage, these were all just constant reminders of how little these names meant to Noemi and the rest of the good guys. I went into it thinking the UEF warriors might be hoping for a peaceful resolution (like me), but everything that transpired made me realize how little the main characters would want that and how unlikely such a resolution would be even if they did.

Awesome as it was, I have to echo the complaints about lag throughout the campaign. People were mentioning 20-30 fps during Delenda Est... honestly, I would've been happy to get something like that over the 7-8 fps I was often playing through in that mission (which, granted, is in some part because I play on a laptop). In all honesty, I found myself playing more for the story and it was good enough to make me overlook the choppy gameplay, which I understand was mostly just a result of the ship models, but I know you guys worked just as hard to make the gameplay excellent and would like to experience that as it's meant to be.

Other than that, though, there wasn't much in the way of errors, though there was one weird issue I found in "One Perfect Moment"...

Spoiler:
Just for fun, I decided to fly close to the surface of the Moon while on the way to the city. As I started to get kinda close, the city started to vanish, like a giant eraser was being dragged across from one side to the other (yeah I suck at explaining these things), and after the city had completely vanished I collided with something invisible. After I turned and flew up a few meters, the city was there again and there weren't any more problems. It doesn't seem like a terribly important issue, but figured it was worth mentioning.

Thank you, good sir! I hope we can get those models optimized for you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leeko on August 13, 2010, 05:31:35 pm
Crawling out of my lurking hole once again to deliver my accolades.

Spoiler:
This is a masterpiece. Somehow, WiH is one of the few gaming experiences I've ever had that genuinely moved me. The writing is excellent, the plot is a bit too good at raising your hopes and stomping all over them, and the use of music was superb. I especially liked the track from Half-Life 2, which is one of the other games that has the distinction of having a real, deep impact on me (Episode 2's ending, my goodness). The Kentauroi and Uriel were a real pleasure to use. They both made me feel godlike. The former because it can afterburn for ages and fly backwards at a decent speed (SO USEFUL for dogfights) and the latter because it can neuter capships from 3km away. But back on the topic of the emotional component, the writing does an excellent job of characterizing the cast. Noemi's instability and internal conflicts are both evident and believable, and very easy to empathize with. A rare sort of protagonist, in that the character development is strong but you have no problem getting into their shoes. Hats off to whoever was responsible for character design and writing. I have been blown away.
[/spoilers]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 13, 2010, 08:12:35 pm
oh campus internet how i've missed you!  downloading the update at 6 megabytes/second.  will be done before i'm through typing this :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 13, 2010, 09:32:43 pm
The music I recognize is the Emperor Battle for Dune Harkonnen theme by David Arkenstone.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 13, 2010, 09:49:12 pm
That was used on AoA, the music on Laporte's personal logs on Chapter 1 were also used then, but I don't remember the name of that track.

And of course the awesome AoA theme music (Main menu, also used in the Admiral escort mission and docking to the Sacred Keeper).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 13, 2010, 10:26:32 pm
You might also recognize Summon the Worms by Brian Tyler.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 13, 2010, 10:42:18 pm
Who does vocals on ending song? There's an accent in it that sounds almost asian.

Spoiler:
Woot. Didn't expect the ending to be the mission right after pull-my-hair-out-mission, but it was nice to get back to it and finish it off. Simms dying(?) was kinda sad, but a bit predictable at that point.

Oh, and audio seems to be asynch from the video in the credits. Warp sounds are way late, and the "horror-scree" sound that pops up when you see the eye again comes a fair bit after the eye actually pops up. Not sure if that's intentional, but it does seem more than a coincidence that the delays were about the same.

So uh, we're to expect Laporte and Sam to get together in the same wing in part 2? Whichever you play, the other better have maxed out AI :P

Also, because of Nagari and all, I was half expecting a fleet of Shivans to show up and save the Indus. My speculation is probably way off, but I bet Laporte will later convince the Shivans to come own the GTVA in some random deus ex. I can only hope that it doesn't happen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 13, 2010, 11:06:34 pm
Who does vocals on ending song? There's an accent in it that sounds almost asian.

Read the credits. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 14, 2010, 12:21:15 am
Who does vocals on ending song? There's an accent in it that sounds almost asian.

Read the credits. :p

Origa, she's Russian, but she lives in Japan.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 14, 2010, 03:44:05 am
ZOMG so awesome! I just barely started playing (had to wrap up AoA:DC first), and had great fun in just the first mission. I actually had to use tactics and attack runs and stuff, which is a big departure from my usual flight plan of: target nearest fighter (or bomber if necessary) kill it, repeat.

In that first mission, during the big attack after the checkpoint, the bombers kept taking out the Ironside. After multiple runthroughs trying different things and failing, I settled on: Arm double Dirk missiles. Put all energy to engines, afterburn straight toward Tev formation. Dirk the first two light bombers, then carry past the remains of that wing and it's escorts. Hit the first Boa with everything I can until I pass it. Go about 1000m past the formation, loop around, and burn straight into it again, firing all available missiles at nearest bombers. My wing took out most of the escorts, and the Ironside finally survived. I had 1% hull integrity left.

I just had to hop on here and say that.  :yes: :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: robot_house on August 14, 2010, 03:51:43 am
Hi, brand new to the boards so I'm unsure if this is the right place to be posted, but I appear to have encountered a bug on the Delenda Est mission (which I know is such happy happy news to you all  :D )

Details in the spoiler

Spoiler:

Basically, the event timings are severely out of whack.  The main offender is the Jackknife attack group.  Over the course of the 30 (not an exaggeration) attempts it took to finally beat this mission the Jackknife attack group never entered the engagement at the same time twice.  I had them never show up, I never had them jump in at what I assume is the correct point (after the final strike squadrons from the Tev destroyer are wiped out), but I had them show up everywhere else.  The vast majority of the time they jumped early, usually either before or immediately after the 30+ strike craft are launched.  Once they even arrived before the Jackknife order was given, I did not load from the checkpoint in that instance working on the possibility that that may be the source of the insanity, leaving me 10 clicks away and completely unable to do anything before they were diced into confetti.

Obviously, this makes the mission extremely difficult because 1) You're nowhere near the Tev corvettes you need to disarm and 2) there are still 30+ strike craft who will eat you and your wingmates alive should you ignore them and focus on the corvettes.  As mentioned earlier, it took me 30-ish tries to actually complete the mission, and I suspect my success is mainly based on lucky torpedo hits from the frigates and not any exceptional flying by myself.

there are other little oddities too, like the 2nd Tev corvette in the initial fight never wanting to jump out ever, and gamma wing starting out 5 clicks from you if you load from checkpoint 1 (making them basically useless for the massive charlie-foxtrot that immediately ensues) that kind of mar the whole fun factor as well.

I hate to give bad feedback because, on the whole, I have enjoyed AoA and WiHp1 immensely.  But unfortunately the finale got reduced to an incredibly frustrating experience for me.

I had something like that happen to me too. Although what I kind of realized is that maybe I was using the checkpoint too quickly. More specifically, I already unlocked checkpoint 1 and right when the mission starts I would open the communication window and use it. Then after the checkpoint loaded I would see the frigates moving at really high speeds and then decelerating, sort of like how large ships move really fast right after coming out of subspace and decelerate to normal speeds. So I thought that perhaps loading the checkpoint while the frigates are coming out of subspace causes them to retain their speed. Anyway after that realization I would just wait until the frigates slowed to around 100 m/s to load the checkpoint and that stopped the
Spoiler:
jacknife group from appearing too quickly
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 14, 2010, 05:01:56 am
Just played that creepy Nagari Ken mission again. Seriously, whoever FREDded that mission made it creepier than most of frakking Transcend. It didn't help that I'd read the entire species.tbl file beforehand and was therefore reminded exactly how creepy the Vishnans were.

Spoiler:
And then, of course, I realize that Noemi is being contacted by Shivans, not Vishnans, which somehow makes the whole thing worse.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 12:07:30 pm
Hi, brand new to the boards so I'm unsure if this is the right place to be posted, but I appear to have encountered a bug on the Delenda Est mission (which I know is such happy happy news to you all  :D )

Details in the spoiler

Spoiler:

Basically, the event timings are severely out of whack.  The main offender is the Jackknife attack group.  Over the course of the 30 (not an exaggeration) attempts it took to finally beat this mission the Jackknife attack group never entered the engagement at the same time twice.  I had them never show up, I never had them jump in at what I assume is the correct point (after the final strike squadrons from the Tev destroyer are wiped out), but I had them show up everywhere else.  The vast majority of the time they jumped early, usually either before or immediately after the 30+ strike craft are launched.  Once they even arrived before the Jackknife order was given, I did not load from the checkpoint in that instance working on the possibility that that may be the source of the insanity, leaving me 10 clicks away and completely unable to do anything before they were diced into confetti.

Obviously, this makes the mission extremely difficult because 1) You're nowhere near the Tev corvettes you need to disarm and 2) there are still 30+ strike craft who will eat you and your wingmates alive should you ignore them and focus on the corvettes.  As mentioned earlier, it took me 30-ish tries to actually complete the mission, and I suspect my success is mainly based on lucky torpedo hits from the frigates and not any exceptional flying by myself.

there are other little oddities too, like the 2nd Tev corvette in the initial fight never wanting to jump out ever, and gamma wing starting out 5 clicks from you if you load from checkpoint 1 (making them basically useless for the massive charlie-foxtrot that immediately ensues) that kind of mar the whole fun factor as well.

I hate to give bad feedback because, on the whole, I have enjoyed AoA and WiHp1 immensely.  But unfortunately the finale got reduced to an incredibly frustrating experience for me.

I had something like that happen to me too. Although what I kind of realized is that maybe I was using the checkpoint too quickly. More specifically, I already unlocked checkpoint 1 and right when the mission starts I would open the communication window and use it. Then after the checkpoint loaded I would see the frigates moving at really high speeds and then decelerating, sort of like how large ships move really fast right after coming out of subspace and decelerate to normal speeds. So I thought that perhaps loading the checkpoint while the frigates are coming out of subspace causes them to retain their speed. Anyway after that realization I would just wait until the frigates slowed to around 100 m/s to load the checkpoint and that stopped the
Spoiler:
jacknife group from appearing too quickly

You've got the problem exactly right. Fortunately I believe it's been fixed in the latest patch.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_07 on August 14, 2010, 02:07:52 pm
Good afternoon.

First, I want to congratulate the BP team for another top notch work. I have no doubt that this is among the best mods in FS, if not the best one. And, it's my favourite.

The only problem is that I can't play it! After the intro movie, the game crashes and displays the following:

Could not load in FictionViewer-m!
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 49 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>

I re-installed both the MVps and the mod, but to no result. Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 02:11:14 pm
Good afternoon.

First, I want to congratulate the BP team for another top notch work. I have no doubt that this is among the best mods in FS, if not the best one. And, it's my favourite.

The inly problem is that I can't play it! After the intro movie, the game crashes and displays the following:

Could not load in FictionViewer-m!
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 49 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>

I re-installed both the MVps and the mod, but to no result. Any help with this matter would be greatly appreciated.

Should be an easy fix. Please generate a debug log for us (see the Troubleshooting FAQ, last post).

I suspect you a) aren't using a 3.6.12 Final build, b) don't have the 3.6.12 MVPs installed in a folder called mediavps_3612, or c) didn't download the AoA patch? But we can fix it no matter what it is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_07 on August 14, 2010, 02:34:07 pm
I followed all the installation steps to the letter. Unzipped all the files to their respective folders, but my pc doesn't seem to let me play.

debug log is in attachment.

oh, and sorry for the sweet time I took.  :D

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 02:34:54 pm
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 15
  -ogl_spec 20
  -spec_static 1.5
  -spec_point 1.2
  -spec_tube 1.5
  -ambient_factor 35
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -nomotiondebris
  -noscalevid
  -spec
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -ballistic_gauge
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -window
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x2fa0cebd
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x24b50f90
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x1541da12
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x0de928dd
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7e75407b
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x7b00452a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\' ... 17 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 403 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\' ... 2 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1905 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1892 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\' ... 2419 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3035 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace 2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 31 roots and 22514 files.
AutoLang: Language auto-detection successful...
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Hardware' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

OpenAL: Restricting MAX_CHANNELS to 30 (default: 32)
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 800x600 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer   : GeForce 9500 GT/PCI/SSE2/3DNOW!
  OpenGL Version    : 2.1.2

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_NV_vertex_program3".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr) ...
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 4 (32)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  Shader Version: 1.20 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
ANI radar1 with size 130x106 (17.2% wasted)
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'radar-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-hdg.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-str.tbm' ...
loading animated cursor "cursor"
MediaVPs: Explosions script loaded!
MediaVPs: Flaming debris script loaded!
Ships.tbl is : VALID
Weapons.tbl is : VALID
cfile_init() took 508
Movie Error:  Unable to open 'intro' movie in any supported format.
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
Got event GS_EVENT_MAIN_MENU (0) in state GS_STATE_INITIAL_PLAYER_SELECT (37)
Someone passed an extension to bm_load for file 'hammer1.pcx'
ANI mainwalk.ani with size 127x297 (42.0% wasted)
ANI mainflyby.ani with size 315x116 (9.4% wasted)
ANI maincrane.ani with size 117x73 (43.0% wasted)
ANI mainexit.ani with size 203x110 (14.1% wasted)
ANI mainbarracks.ani with size 163x105 (18.0% wasted)
ANI mainreadyroom.ani with size 139x86 (32.8% wasted)
ANI mainoptions.ani with size 207x131 (48.8% wasted)
ANI maincampaign.ani with size 200x124 (3.1% wasted)
Got event GS_EVENT_NEW_CAMPAIGN (26) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
Got event GS_EVENT_START_GAME (1) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
=================== STARTING LEVEL LOAD ==================
Someone passed an extension to bm_load for file 'LoadingBG.pcx'
ANI Loading with size 515x26 (18.8% wasted)
ANI Loading.ani with size 515x26 (18.8% wasted)
Starting model page in...
Beginning level bitmap paging...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (particleexp01.eff) with 10 frames at 8 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (particlesmoke01.eff) with 54 frames at 15 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (particlesmoke02.eff) with 39 frames at 24 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-fbl.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (WarpMap01.eff) with 30 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (WarpMap02.eff) with 30 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Rock_Exp.eff) with 55 frames at 30 fps.
Loading warp model
Loading model 'warp.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'warp.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xbf802ad0, IBX checksum: 0x3888b26c -- "warp.pof"
 300
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shieldhit01a.eff) with 23 frames at 21 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shieldhit02a.eff) with 45 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shieldhit03a.eff) with 22 frames at 30 fps.
SHOCKWAVE =>  Loading default shockwave model...
Loading model 'shockwave.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'shockwave.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xa85bec39, IBX checksum: 0xbf8649d9 -- "shockwave.pof"
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shockwave3d-glow.eff) with 159 frames at 24 fps.
Model shockwave.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
SHOCKWAVE =>  Default model load: SUCCEEDED!!
MISSION LOAD: 'bp2-01.fs2'
Hmmm... Extension passed to mission_load...
Using callsign: Brie
Using callsign: Kassim
Using callsign: Laporte
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 11th Tactical Assault
Using callsign: 11th Tactical Assault
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Using callsign: 11th Tactical Assault
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Starting mission message count : 292
Ending mission message count : 296
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
Loading model 'FtUhlan.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'FtUhlan.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x6ac9794d, IBX checksum: 0x0c7ebe69 -- "FtUhlan.pof"
Submodel 'Uhland' is detail level 3 of 'Uhlana'
Submodel 'Uhlanc' is detail level 2 of 'Uhlana'
Submodel 'Uhlanb' is detail level 1 of 'Uhlana'
Loading model 'Torrent.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'Torrent.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x29fb97c8, IBX checksum: 0x1d3431a4 -- "Torrent.pof"
Submodel 'CRUISERHULLb' is detail level 1 of 'CRUISERHULLa'
Allocating space for at least 25 new ship subsystems ...  a total of 200 is now available (25 in-use).
Loading model 'fighter2t-02.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'fighter2t-02.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xcdb3e195, IBX checksum: 0x3176ea32 -- "fighter2t-02.pof"
Loading model 'fighter2t-05.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'fighter2t-05.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xc8b2f868, IBX checksum: 0x3dfad880 -- "fighter2t-05.pof"
Loading model 'gate.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'gate.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x41681466, IBX checksum: 0x02434415 -- "gate.pof"
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'vortexa', believed to be in ship gate.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'path01', believed to be in ship gate.pof
Loading model 'kadmos.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'kadmos.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x922ba49f, IBX checksum: 0xb72b27e1 -- "kadmos.pof"
Loading model 'medliner.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'medliner.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x867feedb, IBX checksum: 0x7606e0b3 -- "medliner.pof"
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Bridge', believed to be in ship medliner.pof
Loading model 'liberty.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'liberty.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x9833cc0c, IBX checksum: 0x156880b4 -- "liberty.pof"
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'fighterbay01', believed to be in ship liberty.pof
Submodel 'detail-1b' is detail level 1 of 'detail-1a'
Submodel 'detail-1c' is detail level 2 of 'detail-1a'
Loading model 'Bomber2T-03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'Bomber2T-03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xd02b1bbd, IBX checksum: 0x696dc3fc -- "Bomber2T-03.pof"
Loading model 'pfighter01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'pfighter01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xbc3ad812, IBX checksum: 0x45d67d8c -- "pfighter01.pof"
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01d' is detail level 3 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'fgstrikebmb.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'fgstrikebmb.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x2c385027, IBX checksum: 0x949c2e01 -- "fgstrikebmb.pof"
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01d' is detail level 3 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02d' is detail level 3 of 'thruster02a'
Loading model 'bomber2t-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'bomber2t-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x83c2373a, IBX checksum: 0x66491bd9 -- "bomber2t-01.pof"
Submodel 'bomb0x-d' is detail level 3 of 'bomb0x-a'
Submodel 'bomb0x-c' is detail level 2 of 'bomb0x-a'
Submodel 'bomb0x-b' is detail level 1 of 'bomb0x-a'
Loading model 'fighter2t-03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'fighter2t-03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xce1df975, IBX checksum: 0x37c93eb1 -- "fighter2t-03.pof"
Loading model 'navbuoy.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'navbuoy.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x7c9f8f53, IBX checksum: 0x10cd349c -- "navbuoy.pof"
OpenGL: Created 512x512 FBO!
ANI lock1 with size 35x33 (48.4% wasted)
ANI lockspin with size 63x63 (1.6% wasted)
ANI energy2 with size 54x60 (6.3% wasted)
ANI toggle1 with size 57x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI weapons1 with size 126x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI weapons1_b with size 150x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI toparc1 with size 157x37 (42.2% wasted)
ANI toparc3 with size 25x18 (43.8% wasted)
ANI leftarc with size 64x157 (38.7% wasted)
ANI rightarc1 with size 64x156 (39.1% wasted)
ANI targhit1 with size 31x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI energy1 with size 12x41 (35.9% wasted)
ANI targetview1 with size 137x156 (39.1% wasted)
ANI targetview2 with size 4x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targetview3 with size 7x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI damage1 with size 148x25 (21.9% wasted)
ANI support1 with size 108x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI objective1 with size 149x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI wingman1 with size 71x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman2 with size 35x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman3 with size 14x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI netlag1 with size 29x30 (6.3% wasted)
ANI head1 with size 164x132 (48.4% wasted)
ANI time1 with size 47x23 (28.1% wasted)
Loading model 'htsb.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'htsb.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x817cd0e6, IBX checksum: 0xb0b0e8b5 -- "htsb.pof"
Model htsb.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'ast03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'ast03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xb6dfc8cb, IBX checksum: 0x63399160 -- "ast03.pof"
Loading model 'ast02.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'ast02.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xa423ee95, IBX checksum: 0xe5f65885 -- "ast02.pof"
Loading model 'ast01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'ast01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x3caacd7a, IBX checksum: 0xc6bf3751 -- "ast01.pof"
=================== STARTING LEVEL DATA LOAD ==================
Loading model 'support2t-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'support2t-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x6512c7b6, IBX checksum: 0xd4a3527c -- "support2t-01.pof"
Submodel 'bodyb' is detail level 1 of 'bodya'
Submodel 'bodyc' is detail level 2 of 'bodya'
Submodel 'bodyd' is detail level 3 of 'bodya'
Loading model 'support2v-01.pof'
ANI Loading.ani with size 515x26 (18.8% wasted)
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'support2v-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x0abd41b4, IBX checksum: 0x3aadce53 -- "support2v-01.pof"
Submodel 'hercb' is detail level 1 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercc' is detail level 2 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercd' is detail level 3 of 'herca'
Loading model 'support01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'support01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x7a26cbbf, IBX checksum: 0xa4a3c026 -- "support01.pof"
Allocating space for at least 104 new ship subsystems ...  a total of 400 is now available (174 in-use).
About to page in ships!
ANI shieldft-02 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldft-03 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldft-05 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldbt-03 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldbt-01 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldkulas with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldRhea with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldlancer with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Subach_AniBitmap.eff) with 6 frames at 5 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (PrometheusR_AniBitmap.eff) with 12 frames at 5 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Prometheus_AniBitmap.eff) with 12 frames at 5 fps.
Loading model 'avenger3.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'avenger3.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8855f87f, IBX checksum: 0x27480536 -- "avenger3.pof"
Model avenger3.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'VulcanGUN.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'VulcanGUN.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x67299b6b, IBX checksum: 0x7f7bc244 -- "VulcanGUN.pof"
Model VulcanGUN.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'Blip.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'Blip.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8701ba27, IBX checksum: 0x43fcc9bb -- "Blip.pof"
Submodel 'blipb' is detail level 1 of 'blipa'
Submodel 'blipc' is detail level 2 of 'blipa'
Submodel 'blipd' is detail level 3 of 'blipa'
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Particle_Yellow.eff) with 11 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Particle_Blue.eff) with 11 frames at 22 fps.
Loading model 'rockeye.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'rockeye.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x821bc51b, IBX checksum: 0x957ed0d8 -- "rockeye.pof"
Submodel 'rockeye-b' is detail level 1 of 'rockeye-a'
Submodel 'rockeye-c' is detail level 2 of 'rockeye-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'Tempest.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'Tempest.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x4fcb12af, IBX checksum: 0xf2c2dadd -- "Tempest.pof"
Loading model 'NewHornet.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'NewHornet.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x2c76000e, IBX checksum: 0x3b55fe00 -- "NewHornet.pof"
Loading model 'bombardier.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'bombardier.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x11edee12, IBX checksum: 0x6082d46a -- "bombardier.pof"
Submodel 'realhornet-b' is detail level 1 of 'realhornet-a'
Submodel 'realhornet-c' is detail level 2 of 'realhornet-a'
Loading model 'crossbow.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'crossbow.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x19e682bb, IBX checksum: 0xd789e656 -- "crossbow.pof"
No subsystems found for model "crossbow.pof".
Loading model 'stilettoII.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'stilettoII.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xc03ac47f, IBX checksum: 0x5eff91ed -- "stilettoII.pof"
BMPMAN: Found EFF (missilespew04.eff) with 20 frames at 30 fps.
Loading model 'belial.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'belial.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x99bae2a2, IBX checksum: 0x80eea276 -- "belial.pof"
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shockwave01.eff) with 94 frames at 30 fps.
Loading model 'cmeasure01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'cmeasure01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x562739c3, IBX checksum: 0x9097924b -- "cmeasure01.pof"
Loading model 'Longbow.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'Longbow.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x9ed18a4a, IBX checksum: 0x818aa0f7 -- "Longbow.pof"
Loading model 'dirk1pod.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'dirk1pod.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xc39767db, IBX checksum: 0x2d4eeecd -- "dirk1pod.pof"
Model dirk1pod.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'InterceptorT.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'InterceptorT.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8d57e22a, IBX checksum: 0xd6388146 -- "InterceptorT.pof"
Loading model 'DirkPodHC.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'DirkPodHC.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x1a57e9d9, IBX checksum: 0x77ce014e -- "DirkPodHC.pof"
Model DirkPodHC.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'hellfire.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'hellfire.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x095d2434, IBX checksum: 0xc91c7cd7 -- "hellfire.pof"
Loading model 'hellfireEXT.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'hellfireEXT.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x80933ea9, IBX checksum: 0xf6a1f3ab -- "hellfireEXT.pof"
Model hellfireEXT.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (missilespew01.eff) with 20 frames at 30 fps.
Loading model 'GBU-240.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'GBU-240.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xb388876a, IBX checksum: 0x96cc6596 -- "GBU-240.pof"
Loading model 'debris01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'debris01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x974f214b, IBX checksum: 0x368eb490 -- "debris01.pof"
Loading model 'debris02.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'debris02.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8e0eed50, IBX checksum: 0x7b2a747e -- "debris02.pof"
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explode1.eff) with 43 frames at 25 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (PWmuzzle.eff) with 4 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Gmuzzle.eff) with 5 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Cmuzzle.eff) with 4 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Bmuzzle.eff) with 5 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Rmuzzle.eff) with 4 frames at 30 fps.
Paging in mission messages
Stopping model page in...
ANI radar1.ani with size 130x106 (17.2% wasted)
ANI Loading.ani with size 515x26 (18.8% wasted)
ANI lock1.ani with size 35x33 (48.4% wasted)
ANI energy2.ani with size 54x60 (6.3% wasted)
ANI toggle1.ani with size 57x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI weapons1.ani with size 126x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI toparc1.ani with size 157x37 (42.2% wasted)
ANI toparc3.ani with size 25x18 (43.8% wasted)
ANI leftarc.ani with size 64x157 (38.7% wasted)
ANI rightarc1.ani with size 64x156 (39.1% wasted)
ANI targhit1.ani with size 31x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI energy1.ani with size 12x41 (35.9% wasted)
ANI targetview1.ani with size 137x156 (39.1% wasted)
ANI targetview2.ani with size 4x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targetview3.ani with size 7x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI damage1.ani with size 148x25 (21.9% wasted)
ANI support1.ani with size 108x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI objective1.ani with size 149x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI wingman1.ani with size 71x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman2.ani with size 35x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman3.ani with size 14x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI netlag1.ani with size 29x30 (6.3% wasted)
ANI head1.ani with size 164x132 (48.4% wasted)
ANI time1.ani with size 47x23 (28.1% wasted)
ANI shieldft-02.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldft-03.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldft-05.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldbt-03.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldbt-01.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldkulas.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldRhea.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldlancer.ani with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
User bitmap 'TMP200x124+16'
User bitmap 'TMP207x131+16'
User bitmap 'TMP46x64+16'
User bitmap 'TMP139x86+16'
User bitmap 'TMP163x105+16'
User bitmap 'TMP203x110+16'
User bitmap 'TMP117x73+16'
User bitmap 'TMP315x116+16'
User bitmap 'TMP127x297+16'
User bitmap 'TMP256x256+8'
User bitmap 'TMP256x256+8'
User bitmap 'TMP128x128+8'
Bmpman: 2164/4750 bitmap slots in use.
Ending level bitmap paging...
=================== ENDING LOAD ================
Real count = 446,  Estimated count = 425
================================================
SCRIPTING: Starting flashy deaths script loading

Class: gtf ulysses
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf hercules
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf hercules mark ii
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf ares
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf erinyes
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf loki
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf pegasus
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf perseus
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf myrmidon
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sf mara (terrans)
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb artemis
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb artemis d.h.
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb medusa
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb ursa
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb zeus
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb boanerges
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtdr amazon
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtdr amazon advanced
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.45
BEDu: 5000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gts hygeia
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtfr triton
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.45
BEDu: 5000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: tc-tri
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1
BE: 0.4
BEDu: 4000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtfr poseidon
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: tc 2
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: tsc 2
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: tac 1
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: ttc 1
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtc fenris
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtm hippocrates
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtc leviathan
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtsc faustus
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtg zephyrus
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.55
BEDu: 7000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gta charybdis
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.5
BEDu: 6000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtd orion
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtd hecate
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtd orion#2 (bastion)
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtd hades
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gti arcadia
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtva colossus
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 5
FE: 6
BE: 0.75
BEDu: 11000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtcv deimos
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtc aeolus
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: ntf iceni
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: ntf boadicea
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtt elysium
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: gtt argo
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.4
BEDu: 4000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gti ganymede
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: knossos
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 5
FE: 6
BE: 0.8
BEDu: 12000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtsg watchdog
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtsg cerberus
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtsg alastor
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtep hermes
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: tc-meson bomb
FRM: 4
FE: 6
BE: 0.8
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 10

Class: gtsg mjolnir
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtsg mjolnir#home
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvf seth
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvf horus
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvf thoth
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvf serapis
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvf tauret
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvb sekhmet
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvb osiris
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvb bakha
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvf ptah
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvs nephthys
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: gvt isis
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: pvfr ma'at
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: gvfr bes
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: vac 5
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: vac 4
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvfr satis
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.45
BEDu: 5000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvg anuket
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.55
BEDu: 7000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvc aten
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvc mentu
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvcv sobek
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvd typhon
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvsg ankh
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvsg edjo
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gvep ra
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gva setekh
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.5
BEDu: 6000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvd hatshepsut
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sf dragon
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sf basilisk
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sf manticore
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sf aeshma
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sf mara
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sf astaroth
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sb nephilim
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sb taurvi
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sb nahema
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sb seraphim
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: st azrael
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: sfr dis
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.45
BEDu: 5000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sac 3
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1
BE: 0.4
BEDu: 4000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sfr mephisto
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: sc 5
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sfr asmodeus
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.45
BEDu: 5000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sac 2
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sc lilith
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sc rakshasa
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sd demon
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sd ravana
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sd lucifer
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: ssg trident
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: ssg belial
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: ssg rahu
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.55
BEDu: 7000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: scv moloch
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sj sathanas
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 5
FE: 6
BE: 0.75
BEDu: 11000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: shivan comm node
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtf aurora
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf kulas
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf comanche
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf seminole
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf cherokee
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb yurok
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb navajo
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtc hyperion
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtcv chimera
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtcv bellerophon
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtd titan
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtd raynor
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtl anemoi
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: orion refit
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: alliance jump gate
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.8
BEDu: 12000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: sj dante
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 5
FE: 6
BE: 0.75
BEDu: 11000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: vishnan preserver
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 5
FE: 6
BE: 0.75
BEDu: 11000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: vishnan arbiter
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: vishnan sacred keeper
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: vishnan missionary
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: vishnan preacher
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: vishnan seeker
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: vishnan inquisitor
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: vishnan protector
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uefg karuna
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gtf atalanta
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf nyx
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtf draco
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtb rhea
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: gtcv diomedes
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: gvl tawaret
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uef uhlan
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: uef kentauroi
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: uef uriel
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: uef izra'il
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: uef lao tze
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: uef ainsarii
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: ueb durga
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: ueb vajradhara
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: uem florence
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uet kadmos
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.4
BEDu: 4000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uet corsair
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: uet upanishad
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uea oculus
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.5
BEDu: 6000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uec sanctus
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.6
BEDu: 8000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uefg narayana
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.65
BEDu: 9000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: ued solaris
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: ues centaur
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6

Class: uefr demeter
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 6
BE: 0.45
BEDu: 5000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uec-dem
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 1
FE: 1
BE: 0.4
BEDu: 4000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uei kumari
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: intrasystem gate
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: uei bretonia
DRM: 0.25
DE: 2
DM: 1
FRM: 2
FE: 6
BE: 0.7
BEDu: 10000
BEDM: 2.5

Class: scimitar
FRM: 1
FE: 1

Class: sred
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 200
BEDi: 100

Class: lred
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 600
BEDi: 300

Class: bfred
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 2100
BEDi: 1050

Class: terslash
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 350
BEDi: 175

Class: lterslash
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 150
BEDi: 75

Class: bfgreen
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1900
BEDi: 950

Class: lrbgreen
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1900
BEDi: 950

Class: bgreen
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1200
BEDi: 650

Class: sgreen
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 210
BEDi: 105

Class: svas
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 350
BEDi: 175

Class: bvas
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1100
BEDi: 550

Class: vslash
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 750
BEDi: 375

Class: green beam
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 200
BEDi: 100

Class: mjolnirbeam
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 750
BEDi: 375

Class: mjolnirbeam#home
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 400
BEDi: 200

Class: cyclops
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 2000
BEDi: 1000

Class: cyclops#short
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 2000
BEDi: 1000

Class: rebel bomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 400
BEDi: 200

Class: helios
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 6800
BEDi: 3400

Class: unknown bomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 1500
BEDi: 750

Class: unknown megabomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 3200
BEDi: 1600

Class: shivan bomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 2000
BEDi: 1000

Class: shivan bomb#short
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 2000
BEDi: 1000

Class: shivan weak bomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 400
BEDi: 200

Class: shivan megabomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 6800
BEDi: 3400

Class: fusion mortar
FR: 20
FE: 6
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 80
BEDi: 40

Class: vasudan flux cannon
FR: 20
FE: 6
BEI: 0.4
BEDu: 500
BEDi: 250

Class: vishnan huge turret
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 90
BEDi: 45

Class: hred
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 800
BEDi: 400

Class: lrsred
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 100
BEDi: 50

Class: terslashblue
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 425
BEDi: 212.5

Class: bfblue
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 2200
BEDi: 1100

Class: hblue
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1850
BEDi: 925

Class: bblue
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1500
BEDi: 750

Class: mblue
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 900
BEDi: 450

Class: sblue
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 320
BEDi: 160

Class: abeamtiny
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 200
BEDi: 100

Class: sabeam
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 400
BEDi: 200

Class: babeam
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 870
BEDi: 435

Class: lrabeam
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 2500
BEDi: 1250

Class: mass driver#karuna
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1200
BEDi: 600

Class: gauss cannon#karuna
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 1200
BEDi: 600

Class: vishnan megabomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 4100
BEDi: 2050

Class: vishnan ultrabomb
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 4100
BEDi: 2050

Class: eos
FR: 150
FE: 7
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 1000
BEDi: 500

Class: supernova
FR: 200
FE: 7
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 5000
BEDi: 2500

Class: apocalypse#karuna
FR: 100
FE: 7
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 500
BEDi: 250

Class: archer
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 350
BEDi: 175

Class: redeemer
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 120
BEDi: 60

Class: vajra
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 600
BEDi: 300

Class: mass driver#sanctus
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 600
BEDi: 300

Class: mass driver#narayana
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 2400
BEDi: 1200

Class: gauss cannon#sanctus
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 600
BEDi: 300

Class: gauss cannon#narayana
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 2400
BEDi: 1200

Class: gattler turret#solaris
BEI: 0.2
BEDu: 15
BEDi: 7.5

Class: warhammer
FR: 50
FE: 6
BEI: 0.4
BEDu: 500
BEDi: 250

Class: sledgehammer
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 7500
BEDi: 3750

Class: jackhammer
FR: 100
FE: 6
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 4000
BEDi: 2000

Class: warhammer#sanctus
FR: 50
FE: 6
BEI: 0.4
BEDu: 500
BEDi: 250

Class: apocalypse#narayana
FR: 150
FE: 7
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 1000
BEDi: 500

Class: apocalypse#solaris
FR: 125
FE: 7
BEI: 0.6
BEDu: 1000
BEDi: 500

Class: hydra#spawn
FR: 25
FE: 6
BEI: 0.4
BEDu: 125
BEDi: 62.5
MediaVPs: Flaming debris script ACTIVE!
Received post for event GS_EVENT_FICTION_VIEWER during state transtition. Find Allender if you are unsure if this is bad.
Got event GS_EVENT_FICTION_VIEWER (66) in state GS_STATE_START_GAME (52)
ERROR: Could not load in FictionViewer-m!
File: window.cpp
Line: 85
Int3(): From c:\temp\fs2_final_export\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1155

Working on it. Gimme a bit.

I have a horrible suspicion.

Disable 'play in window.' See if it works.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_07 on August 14, 2010, 02:48:17 pm
The window mode was enabled to generate the log (Troubleshooting FAQ intructions). It doesn't work in full screen either...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on August 14, 2010, 02:50:15 pm
I followed all the installation steps to the letter. Unzipped all the files to their respective folders, but my pc doesn't seem to let me play.

debug log is in attachment.

oh, and sorry for the sweet time I took.  :D
can you try playing in fullscreen? (that is without -window selected)


nevermind....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 02:54:14 pm
The window mode was enabled to generate the log (Troubleshooting FAQ intructions). It doesn't work in full screen either...

You're kidding me!

Right. I'm sure we've seen this bug before, and I'm sure we solved it. I just need one of our tech support guys to show up. Sorry for the hassle.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_07 on August 14, 2010, 02:56:35 pm
not a problem at all :)

I apologise for not being too helpul (still in the noob evolutionary stage)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 03:01:39 pm
not a problem at all :)

I apologise for not being too helpul (still in the noob evolutionary stage)

For what it's worth, your install looks good...any chance we can get screenshots of your blueplanet, blueplanet2 and FreeSpace2 folders?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 14, 2010, 03:16:14 pm
Problem is too low resolution. Set it to 1024x768 or higher.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 03:19:54 pm
Problem is too low resolution. Set it to 1024x768 or higher.

We should patch in fiction viewer art for the lower resolutions, since we did it for loadscreens.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_07 on August 14, 2010, 03:24:50 pm
The E, thanks a bunch. Worked like magic. :lol:

well, now I'll get occupieded for the next hours.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 14, 2010, 03:34:41 pm
I don't know if this has been fixed or not... but one of the UEF bombers is missing most of its textures.

Also, do we have any intel/background info on the GTF Draco? It looks kind of like a Perseus...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on August 14, 2010, 03:39:24 pm
I don't know if this has been fixed or not... but one of the UEF bombers is missing most of its textures.
There are no missing textures. I suggest you to check your vp-files checksums.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 03:41:06 pm
Also, do we have any intel/background info on the GTF Draco? It looks kind of like a Perseus...

The ships.tbl entry should provide plenty of background.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 14, 2010, 03:57:44 pm
I don't know if this has been fixed or not... but one of the UEF bombers is missing most of its textures.

And you didn't tell us which one because....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 14, 2010, 04:01:45 pm
The model is "HellraiserXA.pof", the UEB Vajradhara. Looking at the model in PCS2 (with all of the relevant directories in the search path), nearly all of the textures for this model appear to be missing. Thus, I suspect it is not a matter of a bad download, but rather an oversight. Nonetheless, if you're sure this isn't the case, and if you can tell me where to find the checksum and what to compare it against, I'll go ahead and do that.

Illustration (in F3 lab, but it demonstrates the issue just the same): (http://i93.photobucket.com/albums/l77/Aardwolf001/Quick%20Illustrations/hellraiser_missing_textures.png)

Edit: @The E: because there's only 2 :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 14, 2010, 04:12:16 pm
The error is almost certainly on your end. Please post a log.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 14, 2010, 04:19:16 pm
Very well.

Code: [Select]

==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 15
  -ogl_spec 20
  -spec_static 1.5
  -spec_point 1.2
  -spec_tube 1.5 bloom_intensity 100
  -ambient_factor 35
  -env
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -nomotiondebris
  -spec
  -no_emissive_light
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -post_process
  -cache_bitmaps
  -rearm_timer
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -fullscreen_window
  -output_sexps
  -output_scripting
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x2fa0cebd
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x24b50f90
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x1541da12
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe2219ccf
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x30ee5a34
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0x377695e0
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 5 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 403 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 373 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1905 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1892 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\' ... 22 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' ... 110 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 31 roots and 20155 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Software' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1600x900 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : ATI Technologies Inc.
  OpenGL Renderer   : ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4670
  OpenGL Version    : 2.1.8784 FireGL

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr) ...
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 8 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 2147483647
  Max elements indices: 16777215
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  Shader Version: 1.30
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Outputting scripting metadata...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
render_target: creating new 1600x900 FBO
render_buffer: creating new 1600x900 render buffer
texture_pool: creating new 1600x900 texture
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-hdg.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-str.tbm' ...
loading animated cursor "cursor"
MediaVPs: Explosions script loaded!
MediaVPs: Flaming debris script loaded!
Ships.tbl is : VALID
Weapons.tbl is : VALID
cfile_init() took 1008
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
Got event GS_EVENT_MAIN_MENU (0) in state GS_STATE_INITIAL_PLAYER_SELECT (37)
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Exit in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Pilot in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Continue in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Tech in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Option in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Campaign in main hall
Got event GS_EVENT_LAB (64) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
Loading model 'HellRaiserXA.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX/TSB to read for 'HellRaiserXA.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xf7a4d505, IBX checksum: 0x0fbfdc44 -- "HellRaiserXA.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'hellraiser' referenced by model 'HellRaiserXA.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'bansheeparts' referenced by model 'HellRaiserXA.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GArmR', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GArmL', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverR', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverL', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverFRNT', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GProbes', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GRail', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Gbarrel', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverTop', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BbayBtms', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayRout', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayRin', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayLin', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayLout', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Frame  0 too long!!: frametime = 33.126 (33.126)
Frame  1 too long!!: frametime = 0.728 (0.728)
Got event GS_EVENT_PREVIOUS_STATE (7) in state GS_STATE_LAB (50)
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Exit in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Pilot in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Continue in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Tech in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Option in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Campaign in main hall
Got event GS_EVENT_QUIT_GAME (5) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
Freeing all existing models...
... Log closed, Sat Aug 14 17:16:17 2010

Of interest I imagine:

Code: [Select]
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x2fa0cebd
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x24b50f90
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x1541da12
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe2219ccf
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x30ee5a34
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
.
.
.
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 5 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 403 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 373 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
.
.
.
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'hellraiser' referenced by model 'HellRaiserXA.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'bansheeparts' referenced by model 'HellRaiserXA.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274

Edit: My WiH checksums seem to match those in the troubleshooting thread.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 14, 2010, 04:22:23 pm
Your bp-visuals1.vp is either corrupted or out of date. You DID update your AoA, didn't you?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 14, 2010, 04:27:47 pm
Your bp-visuals1.vp is either corrupted or out of date. You DID update your AoA, didn't you?

Hm, looks like that single VP might have slipped past me; it says it was last modified in February, versus the rest which were last modified in August. Will update now.

Edit: while that downloads curse you slow internet!, are you sure that vp contains the textures "hellraiser" and "bansheeparts" ? The changes listed in the update post suggest otherwise.

Edit the Second: My bad. Looks like it was indeed in that vp. And apparently I had already downloaded it but somehow neglected to extract it. It's working now.

Still, the listed changes definitely do not list anything about those textures.  :ick:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nissan on August 14, 2010, 05:47:48 pm
So I ran into an issue while replaying Delenda Est via the mission simulator.

Spoiler:
Toward the end, after the Imperiuse took out the Katana and around the time it blasted the Altan Orde, the mission ended abruptly. I'm not sure if it was immediately before, during, or immediately after the time the Altan Orde was destroyed since I was flying back to the Indus at the time, but I got sent to the debriefing screen and received a "no debriefing available" message. Without digging through the mission file itself, I'd guess that's when the second checkpoint kicks in, so maybe it's tied to that?

Not sure if this had any impact, but during the mission I had attempted to take out the Carthage beam that targets the Hanuman. Once I (with unexpected help from the frigates) got the beam down to 17%, it wouldn't drop any further. After the beam took out the Hanuman and the Imperiuse arrived, I launched one last Slammer at the beam and destroyed it, then went back to protect the Indus.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 05:51:16 pm
Are you on the latest patch? That issue should have been resolved - if it hasn't I need to take another look at it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nissan on August 14, 2010, 10:07:44 pm
By latest patch, you meant the latest version of bp2-core.vp, right? I hadn't done that yet, so maybe that was it...

Trouble is, updating that file seems to have created a new issue. After I start up the game, it says the mod has generated 48 active warnings, and when I try to load Delenda Est it crashes when I go to the loadout screen. I tried another mission at random (Darkest Hour) and that one broke while trying to load the command briefing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 10:09:33 pm
By latest patch, you meant the latest version of bp2-core.vp, right? I hadn't done that yet, so maybe that was it...

Trouble is, updating that file seems to have created a new issue. After I start up the game, it says the mod has generated 48 active warnings, and when I try to load Delenda Est it crashes when I go to the loadout screen. I tried another mission at random (Darkest Hour) and that one broke while trying to load the command briefing.

Debug log, please. Sounds like a somewhat borked install or bad download.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 14, 2010, 10:10:37 pm
i know this has been addressed before, but i can't find it again for the solution.  after getting the patch (i actually just redownloaded everything from modDB), i'm getting the "no debreifing for *mission name* and "you cannot accept, you failed" on the first mission.  I lost one of the civies in the convoy, but didn't fail.  debug log needed?  i checked hash on all the VP files after downloading.

EDIT: Played again with debug build, did not reproduce.  I did save all ships this time though.  Is there maybe a missing briefing for whatever certain set of circumstances I hit that time?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on August 14, 2010, 10:33:00 pm
hey Aardwolf, what is that awesome model viewer you are using?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: blowfish on August 14, 2010, 10:36:13 pm
That's the lab.  Press F3 from the mainhall to get to it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 10:46:08 pm
i know this has been addressed before, but i can't find it again for the solution.  after getting the patch (i actually just redownloaded everything from modDB), i'm getting the "no debreifing for *mission name* and "you cannot accept, you failed" on the first mission.  I lost one of the civies in the convoy, but didn't fail.  debug log needed?  i checked hash on all the VP files after downloading.

EDIT: Played again with debug build, did not reproduce.  I did save all ships this time though.  Is there maybe a missing briefing for whatever certain set of circumstances I hit that time?

It's very possible. *sigh* Will try to fix 'er up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 14, 2010, 10:57:18 pm
while you're at it....

in collateral damage, you can't call in support even after the jamming stops.  unless that was intentional.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nissan on August 14, 2010, 10:57:56 pm
Debug log, please. Sounds like a somewhat borked install or bad download.

Here it is.

Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -env
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -nomotiondebris
  -spec
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -ballistic_gauge
  -dualscanlines
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -window
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x24b50f90
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe2219ccf
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7e75407b
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\a_subspace.vp' with a checksum of 0x02b13584
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\FS2OGGcutscenepack.vp' with a checksum of 0x84396e99
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\LSNebPlusFS2Missions.vp' with a checksum of 0x775e7c1b
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0x377695e0
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\multi-voice-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0xd50e7442
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 36 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\' ... 368 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\a_subspace.vp' ... 63 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\FS2OGGcutscenepack.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\LSNebPlusFS2Missions.vp' ... 198 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' ... 110 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\multi-voice-pack.vp' ... 307 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root 'e:\' ... 0 files
Found 28 roots and 13599 files.
AutoLang: Language auto-detection successful...
Setting language to English
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Software' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1280x800 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer   : GeForce 8200M G/PCI/SSE2/3DNOW!
  OpenGL Version    : 3.0.0

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_NV_vertex_program3".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  null-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / null-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
      Shader file(s) (null-v.sdr / null-f.sdr) not found!
      Shader in_error!  Disabling GLSL!
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 4 (4)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 1
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
WARNING: "For 'MS_Impact', 3 of 4 LODs are missing!" at weapons.cpp:206
WARNING: "For 'Mekhu_Impact', 3 of 4 LODs are missing!" at weapons.cpp:206
WARNING: "For 'Kayser_Impact', 3 of 4 LODs are missing!" at weapons.cpp:206
WARNING: "For 'Subach_Impact', 3 of 4 LODs are missing!" at weapons.cpp:206
WARNING: "For 'exp04', 3 of 4 LODs are missing!" at weapons.cpp:206
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
Freeing all existing models...

EDIT: I think I figured out what might be the issue. If it is what I think it is, I'm an idiot. Hang on...

EDIT 2: Okay, yeah, this seems to have fixed it. So when I first installed the new mediavps, I renamed the folder from 'mediavps_3612' to just 'mediavps', and I changed the mod.ini file in the blueplanet2 folder accordingly. When I reinstalled the core files, it brought back the old mod.ini file that drew from the 'mediavps_3612' folder, which no longer existed on my computer.

Anyway, fixed the inconsistency, and the game didn't throw any warnings when it started up. I'll play through a couple missions to make sure it's in good shape though.

(While I'm feeling dumb, though, I might as well ask: is it cool if I change the 'mediavps_3612' folder to just 'mediavps' so I don't have to change the mod.ini file for every campaign I have, or would it be better to leave it as is?)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 11:14:20 pm
while you're at it....

in collateral damage, you can't call in support even after the jamming stops.  unless that was intentional.

There's unfortunately no way to change support availability mid-mission.

while you're at it....

in collateral damage, you can't call in support even after the jamming stops.  unless that was intentional.

There's unfortunately no way to change support availability mid-mission.



UNLESS THERE IS

stand by
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 14, 2010, 11:28:57 pm
there is?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 14, 2010, 11:33:40 pm
isn't there that SEXP to set support ship?
the one that lets them be launched from capships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2010, 11:35:05 pm
isn't there that SEXP to set support ship?
the one that lets them be launched from capships.

It appears that set-support-ship can in fact overwrite the mission support ship flags, which means we can use it here!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 14, 2010, 11:36:45 pm
hooray
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 15, 2010, 04:03:57 am
We need a thread for FRED tricks like these. I remember stumbling across this a long time ago, then forgetting about it.

[EDIT since I don't want to double post]: Where is the "icarus2" track (the fiction viewer one) from? I can't find it in credits.tbl.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on August 15, 2010, 09:20:31 am
It's a quick piano version of Michael McCann's Icarus that I did. Since it was done by a team member, it wasn't listed in the credits.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 15, 2010, 12:18:50 pm
oh and the spoiler? hint: what are the default key bindings?
The keybinds are for sending messages on multiplayer, I still don't get it.

Oh boy...where'd those radar icons go...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 15, 2010, 12:49:23 pm
BP radar icons can be found here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70841.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 15, 2010, 01:04:55 pm
Dur, I was on the wrong thread entirely. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 15, 2010, 04:05:58 pm
Can you help me? I got OpenFS latest, and first BP, but i got some troble in game.

When i start game, in pre-brifing (i mean before mission start), i can't click continue.

Also, i get this message: "Could not load in 2_CommandBrief-mb!
<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
"

How can i fix it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 15, 2010, 04:11:47 pm
Can you help me? I got OpenFS latest, and first BP, but i got some troble in game.

When i start game, in pre-brifing (i mean before mission start), i can't click continue.

Also, i get this message: "Could not load in 2_CommandBrief-mb!
<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
"

How can i fix it?

Should be an easy fix.

First, turn up your resolution in the launcher; I bet it's stuck at 640x480.

Second, please go to the Troubleshooting forum, read the last post in the FAQ, and then generate and post a debug log for us.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 15, 2010, 04:31:52 pm
It's not resolution. I tested on 1024x786 and 1280x1024

Code: [Select]
"==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 8.2
  -spec_static 3.5
  -spec_point 8.6
  -spec_tube 1.0
  -ambient_factor 70
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -spec
  -3dshockwave
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
Building file index...
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x2fa0cebd
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x24b50f90
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-adv-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x2851edb0
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x1541da12
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe2219ccf
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7e75407b
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\multi-mission-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0x377695e0
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\multi-voice-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0xd50e7442
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\' ... 35 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\' ... 28 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-adv-core.vp' ... 2 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 403 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'F:\games\FSO-clean\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root 'F:\games\FSO-clean\' ... 116 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\multi-mission-pack.vp' ... 110 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\multi-voice-pack.vp' ... 307 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'F:\games\FSO-clean\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 27 roots and 13530 files.
AutoLang: Language auto-detection successful...
Setting language to English
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Hardware' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1024x768 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer   : GeForce 7600 GT/PCI/SSE2
  OpenGL Version    : 2.1.2

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_NV_vertex_program3".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr) ...
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 4 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 4096x4096
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  Shader Version: 1.20 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-advanced-mfl.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Muzzle flash "BP_Cmuzzle_tiny" already exists!  Using existing entry instead." at muzzleflash.cpp:164
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Mekhu_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Mekhu_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Kayser_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Kayser_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Subach_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Subach_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Subach_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Subach_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "For 'exp04', 3 of 4 LODs are missing!" at weapons.cpp:206
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'capflash' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-advanced-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Mekhu_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Shivan_Impact01' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Kayser_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Vapula_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Akheton_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Kayser_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Prometheus_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Prometheus_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Prometheus_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'Kayser_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class GTF Aurora" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class GTF Kulas" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class GTF Comanche" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class GTF Seminole" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class GTF Cherokee" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class GTB Yurok" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class GTB Navajo" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class GTC Hyperion" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class GTCv Chimera" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class GTCv Bellerophon" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class GTD Titan" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class GTD Raynor" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class GTL Anemoi" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class Orion Refit" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class Alliance Jump Gate" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class Spacesuit" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class SJ Dante" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Preserver" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Arbiter" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Sacred Keeper" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Missionary" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Preacher" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Seeker" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name LightArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Inquisitor" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name MediumArmor specified for hull in ship class Vishnan Protector" at ship.cpp:2042
WARNING: "Invalid armor name HeavyArmor specified for hull in ship class UEFg Karuna" at ship.cpp:2042
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-str.tbm' ...
loading animated cursor "cursor"
Ships.tbl is : VALID
Weapons.tbl is : VALID
cfile_init() took 426
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
Got event GS_EVENT_MAIN_MENU (0) in state GS_STATE_INITIAL_PLAYER_SELECT (37)
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Exit in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Pilot in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Continue in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Tech in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Option in main hall
WARNING!, Could not load door anim 2_Campaign in main hall
Got event GS_EVENT_NEW_CAMPAIGN (26) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
Got event GS_EVENT_START_GAME (1) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
=================== STARTING LEVEL LOAD ==================
Someone passed an extension to bm_load for file '2_LoadingBGM01.png'
BMPMAN: Found EFF (2_Loading.eff) with 14 frames at 15 fps.
Starting model page in...
Beginning level bitmap paging...
Loading warp model
 -1
SHOCKWAVE =>  Loading default shockwave model...
Loading model 'shockwave.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'shockwave.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xa85bec39, IBX checksum: 0xbf8649d9 -- "shockwave.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'shockwave3d' referenced by model 'shockwave.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
Model shockwave.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
SHOCKWAVE =>  Default model load: SUCCEEDED!!
MISSION LOAD: 'bp2-01.fs2'
Hmmm... Extension passed to mission_load...
Using callsign: Brie
Using callsign: Kassim
Using callsign: Laporte
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 11th Tactical Assault
Using callsign: 11th Tactical Assault
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Using callsign: 11th Tactical Assault
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 42nd Pythons
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 500th Helldivers
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 103rd Archers
Using callsign: 101st Sidewinders
Starting mission message count : 292
Ending mission message count : 296
WARNING: "Unable to load sun glow bitmap: 'SunGlow'!" at starfield.cpp:2455
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'SolCorona001'!" at starfield.cpp:2469
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'SolCorona002'!" at starfield.cpp:2469
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona003'!" at starfield.cpp:2469
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona004'!" at starfield.cpp:2469
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona005'!" at starfield.cpp:2469
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona006'!" at starfield.cpp:2469
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
Loading model 'FtUhlan.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'FtUhlan.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x6ac9794d, IBX checksum: 0x0c7ebe69 -- "FtUhlan.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'glass' referenced by model 'FtUhlan.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Teal_Glow' referenced by model 'FtUhlan.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Red_Herc_Glow' referenced by model 'FtUhlan.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Submodel 'Uhland' is detail level 3 of 'Uhlana'
Submodel 'Uhlanc' is detail level 2 of 'Uhlana'
Submodel 'Uhlanb' is detail level 1 of 'Uhlana'
Loading model 'Torrent.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Torrent.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x29fb97c8, IBX checksum: 0x1d3431a4 -- "Torrent.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'ctile4' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'ctile4' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'tcov1' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'warnsrp' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'yellow_glow2_small' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Yellow_glow' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'yellow_glow' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'yellow_glow' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'yellow_glow' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Submodel 'CRUISERHULLb' is detail level 1 of 'CRUISERHULLa'
Allocating space for at least 25 new ship subsystems ...  a total of 200 is now available (25 in-use).
Loading model 'fighter2t-02.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'fighter2t-02.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xd88cd2a1, IBX checksum: 0xf1dc10ae -- "fighter2t-02.pof"
Submodel 'hercb' is detail level 1 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercd' is detail level 3 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercc' is detail level 2 of 'herca'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster03b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster03a'
Submodel 'thruster03c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster03a'
Submodel 'thruster05b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster05a'
Submodel 'thruster05c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster05a'
Submodel 'thruster06b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster06a'
Submodel 'thruster06c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster06a'
Submodel 'thruster04b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster04a'
Submodel 'thruster04c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster04a'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Loading model 'fighter2t-05.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'fighter2t-05.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x43698f32, IBX checksum: 0x1100c41c -- "fighter2t-05.pof"
Submodel 'fighter2t-05b' is detail level 1 of 'fighter2t-05a'
Submodel 'fighter2t-05c' is detail level 2 of 'fighter2t-05a'
Submodel 'fighter2t-05d' is detail level 3 of 'fighter2t-05a'
Submodel 'thruster04b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster04a'
Submodel 'thruster04c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster04a'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster03b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster03a'
Submodel 'thruster03c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster03a'
Loading model 'gate.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'gate.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x41681466, IBX checksum: 0x02434415 -- "gate.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'tcov7' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'tcov1' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'install01-02' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'capital01-04' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'tcov6' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'doctile5' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'vortexa', believed to be in ship gate.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'path01', believed to be in ship gate.pof
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'green_glow2_small' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'green_glow2_small' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'green_glow2_small' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'green_glow2_small' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_herc_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'green_glow2_small' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'green_glow2_small' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'blue_glow4' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Teal_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'blue_glow4' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'blue_glow4' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Teal_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Teal_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'blue_glow4' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Teal_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'blue_glow4' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'yellow_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'yellow_glow' referenced by model 'gate.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Loading model 'kadmos.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'kadmos.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x922ba49f, IBX checksum: 0xb72b27e1 -- "kadmos.pof"
Loading model 'medliner.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'medliner.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x867feedb, IBX checksum: 0x7606e0b3 -- "medliner.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'install01-02' referenced by model 'medliner.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'doctile4' referenced by model 'medliner.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'doctile1' referenced by model 'medliner.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Bridge', believed to be in ship medliner.pof
Loading model 'liberty.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'liberty.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x9833cc0c, IBX checksum: 0x156880b4 -- "liberty.pof"
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'fighterbay01', believed to be in ship liberty.pof
Submodel 'detail-1b' is detail level 1 of 'detail-1a'
Submodel 'detail-1c' is detail level 2 of 'detail-1a'
Loading model 'Bomber2T-03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Bomber2T-03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xd7f134d9, IBX checksum: 0x91e20081 -- "Bomber2T-03.pof"
Submodel 'hercb' is detail level 1 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercc' is detail level 2 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercd' is detail level 3 of 'herca'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster03b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster03a'
Submodel 'thruster03c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster03a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'pfighter01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'pfighter01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xbc3ad812, IBX checksum: 0x45d67d8c -- "pfighter01.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Red_Herc_Glow' referenced by model 'pfighter01.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Teal_Glow' referenced by model 'pfighter01.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01d' is detail level 3 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'fgstrikebmb.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'fgstrikebmb.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x2c385027, IBX checksum: 0x949c2e01 -- "fgstrikebmb.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'glass' referenced by model 'fgstrikebmb.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'red_glow_small' referenced by model 'fgstrikebmb.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'green_glow1_small' referenced by model 'fgstrikebmb.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'yellow_glow_small' referenced by model 'fgstrikebmb.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01d' is detail level 3 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02d' is detail level 3 of 'thruster02a'
Loading model 'bomber2t-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'bomber2t-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x509efd5d, IBX checksum: 0xf0d71abc -- "bomber2t-01.pof"
Submodel 'bomb0x-d' is detail level 3 of 'bomb0x-a'
Submodel 'bomb0x-c' is detail level 2 of 'bomb0x-a'
Submodel 'bomb0x-b' is detail level 1 of 'bomb0x-a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Loading model 'fighter2t-03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'fighter2t-03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x7c4233bb, IBX checksum: 0x2c32cf19 -- "fighter2t-03.pof"
Submodel 'valkc' is detail level 2 of 'valka'
Submodel 'valkd' is detail level 3 of 'valka'
Submodel 'valkb' is detail level 1 of 'valka'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Loading model 'navbuoy.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'navbuoy.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xb7295349, IBX checksum: 0xe6296d0e -- "navbuoy.pof"
OpenGL: Created 512x512 FBO!
ANI 2_lock1 with size 56x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI 2_lockspin with size 100x100 (21.9% wasted)
ANI 2_lead1 with size 26x26 (18.8% wasted)
ANI 2_energy2 with size 86x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI toggle1 with size 57x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI weapons1 with size 126x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI 2_toparc1 with size 252x60 (6.3% wasted)
ANI 2_toparc2 with size 35x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI 2_toparc3 with size 41x29 (9.4% wasted)
ANI 2_leftarc with size 103x252 (1.6% wasted)
ANI 2_rightarc1 with size 103x252 (1.6% wasted)
ANI 2_reticle1 with size 40x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targhit1 with size 31x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI energy1 with size 12x41 (35.9% wasted)
ANI targetview1 with size 137x156 (39.1% wasted)
ANI targetview2 with size 4x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targetview3 with size 7x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI damage1 with size 148x25 (21.9% wasted)
ANI support1 with size 108x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI objective1 with size 149x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI wingman1 with size 71x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman2 with size 35x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman3 with size 14x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI netlag1 with size 29x30 (6.3% wasted)
ANI head1 with size 164x132 (48.4% wasted)
ANI time1 with size 47x23 (28.1% wasted)
Loading model 'htsb.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'htsb.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x817cd0e6, IBX checksum: 0xb0b0e8b5 -- "htsb.pof"
Model htsb.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'ast03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'ast03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x6d9c8548, IBX checksum: 0x5a45972a -- "ast03.pof"
Submodel 'astb' is detail level 1 of 'asta'
Submodel 'astc' is detail level 2 of 'asta'
Loading model 'ast02.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'ast02.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xcb50099a, IBX checksum: 0x33fc7e46 -- "ast02.pof"
Submodel 'astb' is detail level 1 of 'asta'
Submodel 'astc' is detail level 2 of 'asta'
Submodel 'astd' is detail level 3 of 'asta'
Loading model 'ast01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'ast01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x52a0f68f, IBX checksum: 0x6f5be176 -- "ast01.pof"
Submodel 'astb' is detail level 1 of 'asta'
Submodel 'astc' is detail level 2 of 'asta'
Submodel 'astd' is detail level 3 of 'asta'
=================== STARTING LEVEL DATA LOAD ==================
Loading model 'support2t-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'support2t-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xdb916bfd, IBX checksum: 0xc0ea10ea -- "support2t-01.pof"
Submodel 'bodyb' is detail level 1 of 'bodya'
Submodel 'bodyc' is detail level 2 of 'bodya'
Submodel 'bodyd' is detail level 3 of 'bodya'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster02b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster02c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster02a'
Submodel 'thruster03b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster03a'
Submodel 'thruster03c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster03a'
Loading model 'support2v-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'support2v-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xb4ca2191, IBX checksum: 0x72cadd2d -- "support2v-01.pof"
Submodel 'hercb' is detail level 1 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercc' is detail level 2 of 'herca'
Submodel 'hercd' is detail level 3 of 'herca'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'support01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'support01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x7a26cbbf, IBX checksum: 0xa4a3c026 -- "support01.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'tercoc01' referenced by model 'support01.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'glass' referenced by model 'support01.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'Yellow_glow' referenced by model 'support01.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'teal_glow' referenced by model 'support01.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'teal_glow' referenced by model 'support01.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Allocating space for at least 104 new ship subsystems ...  a total of 400 is now available (174 in-use).
About to page in ships!
ANI shieldft-02 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldft-03 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldft-05 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldbt-03 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldbt-01 with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldkulas with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldRhea with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
ANI shieldlancer with size 112x93 (27.3% wasted)
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'Balor'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (Subach_Glow) for weapon 'Balor'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'Vulcan'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (Subach_Glow) for weapon 'Vulcan'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Loading model 'avenger3.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'avenger3.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8855f87f, IBX checksum: 0x27480536 -- "avenger3.pof"
Model avenger3.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'Maul'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (Prometheus_Glow) for weapon 'Maul'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Loading model 'VulcanGUN.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'VulcanGUN.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x67299b6b, IBX checksum: 0x7f7bc244 -- "VulcanGUN.pof"
Model VulcanGUN.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'Point Defense Turret'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (Prometheus_Glow) for weapon 'Point Defense Turret'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap for 'Burst Flak'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap (Cmuzzle_0001) for weapon 'Burst Flak'!" at weapons.cpp:3031
Loading model 'Blip.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Blip.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x74e3d996, IBX checksum: 0xcc9bd461 -- "Blip.pof"
Submodel 'blipb' is detail level 1 of 'blipa'
Submodel 'blipc' is detail level 2 of 'blipa'
Submodel 'blipd' is detail level 3 of 'blipa'
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'UEF Light Turret'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (CapTurret_Glow) for weapon 'UEF Light Turret'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'UEF Medium Turret'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (CapTurret_Glow) for weapon 'UEF Medium Turret'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'UEF Heavy Turret'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (CapTurret_Glow) for weapon 'UEF Heavy Turret'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'Mass Driver#Sanctus'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (Maxim_Glow) for weapon 'Mass Driver#Sanctus'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap for 'Mass Driver#Sanctus'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap (Particle_Yellow) for weapon 'Mass Driver#Sanctus'!" at weapons.cpp:3031
Could not find a usable glow bitmap for 'Gauss Cannon#Sanctus'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable glow bitmap (Maxim_Glow) for weapon 'Gauss Cannon#Sanctus'!" at weapons.cpp:2967
Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap for 'Gauss Cannon#Sanctus'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap (Particle_Blue) for weapon 'Gauss Cannon#Sanctus'!" at weapons.cpp:3031
Loading model 'rockeye.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'rockeye.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xf180b177, IBX checksum: 0xe6bac331 -- "rockeye.pof"
Submodel 'rockeye-b' is detail level 1 of 'rockeye-a'
Submodel 'rockeye-c' is detail level 2 of 'rockeye-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'Tempest.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Tempest.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x99e70c37, IBX checksum: 0x8bde2e21 -- "Tempest.pof"
Submodel 'realtempest-b' is detail level 1 of 'realtempest-a'
Submodel 'realtempest-c' is detail level 2 of 'realtempest-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'NewHornet.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'NewHornet.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x0f07cd0b, IBX checksum: 0x07f68a54 -- "NewHornet.pof"
Submodel 'realhornet-b' is detail level 1 of 'realhornet-a'
Submodel 'realhornet-c' is detail level 2 of 'realhornet-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'bombardier.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'bombardier.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x99891c8b, IBX checksum: 0xbe4be1af -- "bombardier.pof"
Submodel 'realhornet-b' is detail level 1 of 'realhornet-a'
Submodel 'realhornet-c' is detail level 2 of 'realhornet-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'crossbow.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'crossbow.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x32caa81e, IBX checksum: 0x3d08480a -- "crossbow.pof"
Submodel 'realcrossbow-b' is detail level 1 of 'realcrossbow-a'
Submodel 'realcrossbow-c' is detail level 2 of 'realcrossbow-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'stilettoII.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'stilettoII.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xeae5c02c, IBX checksum: 0xcfa495cf -- "stilettoII.pof"
Submodel 'stiletto2-b' is detail level 1 of 'stiletto2-a'
Submodel 'stiletto2-c' is detail level 2 of 'stiletto2-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'belial.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'belial.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x6890e668, IBX checksum: 0x4b930da9 -- "belial.pof"
Submodel 'belialreal-b' is detail level 1 of 'belialreal-a'
Submodel 'belialreal-c' is detail level 2 of 'belialreal-a'
Submodel 'thruster01b' is detail level 1 of 'thruster01a'
Submodel 'thruster01c' is detail level 2 of 'thruster01a'
Loading model 'cmeasure01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'cmeasure01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xe5f32533, IBX checksum: 0x51a56331 -- "cmeasure01.pof"
Loading model 'Longbow.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Longbow.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x9ed18a4a, IBX checksum: 0x818aa0f7 -- "Longbow.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'missile_flare' referenced by model 'Longbow.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Loading model 'dirk1pod.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'dirk1pod.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xc39767db, IBX checksum: 0x2d4eeecd -- "dirk1pod.pof"
Model dirk1pod.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'InterceptorT.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'InterceptorT.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8d57e22a, IBX checksum: 0xd6388146 -- "InterceptorT.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'missile_flare' referenced by model 'InterceptorT.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Loading model 'DirkPodHC.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'DirkPodHC.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x1a57e9d9, IBX checksum: 0x77ce014e -- "DirkPodHC.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'warnsrp' referenced by model 'DirkPodHC.pof'" at modelread.cpp:2274
Model DirkPodHC.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Loading model 'hellfire.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'hellfire.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x095d2434, IBX checksum: 0xc91c7cd7 -- "hellfire.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'missile_flare' referenced by model 'hellfire.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Loading model 'hellfireEXT.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'hellfireEXT.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x80933ea9, IBX checksum: 0xf6a1f3ab -- "hellfireEXT.pof"
Model hellfireEXT.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap for 'Warhammer#Sanctus'!
WARNING: "Could not find a usable particle spew bitmap (missilespew01) for weapon 'Warhammer#Sanctus'!" at weapons.cpp:3031
Loading model 'GBU-240.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'GBU-240.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xb388876a, IBX checksum: 0x96cc6596 -- "GBU-240.pof"
WARNING: "Couldn't open texture 'missile_flare' referenced by model 'GBU-240.pof'" at modelread.cpp:1733
Loading model 'debris01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'debris01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x974f214b, IBX checksum: 0x4b30798e -- "debris01.pof"
Loading model 'debris02.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'debris02.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8e0eed50, IBX checksum: 0x5ba55a34 -- "debris02.pof"
WARNING: "Unable to load sun glow bitmap: 'SunGlow'!" at starfield.cpp:2280
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'SolCorona001'!" at starfield.cpp:2294
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'SolCorona002'!" at starfield.cpp:2294
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona003'!" at starfield.cpp:2294
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona004'!" at starfield.cpp:2294
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona005'!" at starfield.cpp:2294
WARNING: "Unable to load sun flare bitmap: 'Corona006'!" at starfield.cpp:2294
ASSERTION: "Mflash_info[i].blobs[idx].anim_id >= 0" at muzzleflash.cpp:207
Int3(): From c:\temp\fs2_final_export\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 902"


here's log. Game crashed before i even get to the trouble point. Also, on start i get warning that the mod generated 66 error's on loading...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 15, 2010, 04:34:50 pm
AAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!


 put that in code tags.  [ code] [ /code] (without spaces)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 15, 2010, 04:36:30 pm
Sorry, i just not so often write on forums
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 15, 2010, 04:43:39 pm
no problem, i know you had no way of knowing.  i was just screwing around, not yelling at you ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 15, 2010, 05:00:11 pm
Thank you, good sir, we'll have an answer for you soon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 15, 2010, 05:04:30 pm
It's not resolution. I tested on 1024x786 and 1280x1024

here's log. Game crashed before i even get to the trouble point. Also, on start i get warning that the mod generated 66 error's on loading...

Your problem is that you do not have the 3.6.12 Mediavps installed correctly. They need to be in a folder named "mediavps_3612"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 15, 2010, 09:47:28 pm
Self-quote ftl.
And I'm still curious about this:
FTFx Thor shield.ani and a weapon called TerSlashBlueAAA, with a very small beam and beamglow, this seems to hint at something.
I really wish to know if there's going to be any involvement with this ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 15, 2010, 10:10:50 pm
Self-quote ftl.
And I'm still curious about this:
FTFx Thor shield.ani and a weapon called TerSlashBlueAAA, with a very small beam and beamglow, this seems to hint at something.
I really wish to know if there's going to be any involvement with this ship.

TerSlashBlueAAA is an experimental next-gen antifighter weapon for Tev warships.

We have no plans for the Thor at the moment. We have too many ships to use in R2 as it is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 15, 2010, 11:44:59 pm
So we are going to see new weapons on both sides, as well as new ships?
Damn, WiH2 feels as much of an 'upgrade' to WiH1 as AoA is to WiH1...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 15, 2010, 11:46:27 pm
So we are going to see new weapons on both sides, as well as new ships?
Damn, WiH2 feels as much of an 'upgrade' to WiH1 as AoA is to WiH1...

Well bear in mind you've already got basically all the new UEF ships in R2 sitting there in the techroom in R1 for you to read about. They just weren't used in the gameplay very heavily.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 16, 2010, 02:43:58 am
Are there going to be something like jury-rigged UEF ships with salvaged/reverse-engineered beams?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 16, 2010, 03:27:06 am
Yep, it's worked. Thank you guy's. This mod is awesome!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on August 16, 2010, 05:48:35 am
I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but after I've finished WiH a few hours ago I simply must let this loose: I F***ING LOVE YOU GUYS! :D When I played Starcraft II, my reaction more like "hmph, okay this is supposed to be the great successor we've been waiting for for 12 years, yes?", but to BP2 it just "YEEEEHA, holy ****, this rocks!"

This is not a campaign, this is artwork. I love it. I adore it. You made me a fanboy once and for all. ;) This is simply... one hell of a masterpiece of what you can do whith FRED. I think I haven't been in love with a piece of science fiction since I first saw Babylon 5 completely a few years ago. People should be _ordered_ to play it once they gain fs_open.

If the second part and Blue Planet 3 are even one tenth as good as this then they are more than worth playing them. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 17, 2010, 12:28:27 am
I haven't read through the whole thread yet, but after I've finished WiH a few hours ago I simply must let this loose: I F***ING LOVE YOU GUYS! :D When I played Starcraft II, my reaction more like "hmph, okay this is supposed to be the great successor we've been waiting for for 12 years, yes?", but to BP2 it just "YEEEEHA, holy ****, this rocks!"

This is not a campaign, this is artwork. I love it. I adore it. You made me a fanboy once and for all. ;) This is simply... one hell of a masterpiece of what you can do whith FRED. I think I haven't been in love with a piece of science fiction since I first saw Babylon 5 completely a few years ago. People should be _ordered_ to play it once they gain fs_open.

If the second part and Blue Planet 3 are even one tenth as good as this then they are more than worth playing them. :)

Thank you, good sir! Wonderful to hear.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 17, 2010, 03:12:20 am
Sweet merciful cows, never in my wildest dreams (or nightmares) did I imagine that I would
Spoiler:
be dogfighting two ace AIs in Erinyes while Apocalyptica plays.
That was terrifying and exhilarating and sad and awesome and overall incredible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 17, 2010, 04:51:32 am
Goddamit.... this is not awesome... Blue Planet: War in Heaven - it's something bigger and i don't get enough english word's to describe my... admiration. With even more impatience i await next part. You guy's ROCK!!!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on August 17, 2010, 05:20:41 am
Played AoA and WiH over the past couple of days. Have to say, best campaigns I've played yet.

Love the design of the new capships on both sides, the political intrigue, the cutscenes, everything.

Keep up the good work guys.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhys on August 17, 2010, 08:53:43 am
It would be interesting in Part 2 to have a mission that takes place on Earth, but I'm not sure if that's entirely possible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nehemiah on August 17, 2010, 03:32:54 pm
Here's how to save the UEF:

1) Execute the Ubuntu elder sissies.
2) Install and reverse engineer beam cannons on your ships taken from GTVA wreckage.
3) Surrender to the GTVA (so the ships with the reverse engineered beams from step two cn actually go to good use.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 17, 2010, 03:35:12 pm
This is how to save the human race :

1) Don't do anything of the above post.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nehemiah on August 17, 2010, 03:40:17 pm
Because I play FS2 so I can watch metal explode and drool over weapon-turret laden destroyer models while driving Helios torpedos into them, I will always have to side with the GTVA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on August 17, 2010, 03:52:23 pm
Mass drivers are so much cooler than beams, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 17, 2010, 03:53:23 pm
Yeah, watching a Solaris open up with all Arashis and all her missile turrets is a sight to behold.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 17, 2010, 03:56:41 pm
What do you mean by "open up" ? Is there some kind of animation ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nehemiah on August 17, 2010, 03:58:15 pm
I disagree with the missiles and mass drivers being cooler than beams.  I'm running on a laptop with an integrated graphics card that cannot handle all the projectiles used by UE ships.  Beams are easier for my computer's graphics card to handle.  All the projectiles end up becoming little squares with static inside them...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 17, 2010, 03:59:18 pm
What do you mean by "open up" ? Is there some kind of animation ?
He means firing weapons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 17, 2010, 04:01:48 pm
Quote
Is there some kind of animation ?

Yes. The covers on the launch tubes open before firing, and there's a nice particle effect when they fire. Like so:
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/screen0020.png)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 17, 2010, 04:02:59 pm
if time/resources were spent on improving mass driver damage rather than reverse engineering beams, they would probably end up being superior weapons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 17, 2010, 04:10:49 pm
Just wished the FSO animation code could handle translation correctly. Recoil would look awesome on those mass drivers !
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 17, 2010, 04:15:29 pm
if time/resources were spent on improving mass driver damage rather than reverse engineering beams, they would probably end up being superior weapons.

You know, at one point during development, those mass drivers had a better DPS than BGreens....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 17, 2010, 04:21:50 pm
or maybe the UEF could develop a gunboat kind of class that mounts an ungodly amount of mass driver turrets but not a lot else.  such a ship could have a similar role to the chimera, but require more cover.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on August 17, 2010, 05:09:15 pm
Sorry to interfere the discussion - I'll make it quick:

Finished WiH p1 an hour ago. Still pretty speechless. And I thought Vassago's Dirge were the pinnacle of innovative campaign-creation this year. Some of the big game-companies can take a leaf out of this book.
I knew, I encountered something special when I read the letters "SCP" five years ago. Thank you for that great experience, HLP-Community. Especially those who reach for the stars and manage to make some of these mods and campaigns better than many of the big budget games coming out today. You all rock! Greets from Germany.

Thanks for the attention.

Now go on  :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 17, 2010, 05:55:03 pm
On the topic of Vassago's Dirge, I noticed
Spoiler:
a creepy red nebula pshyco mission here and there both. Was this intentional, coincidental, or a side effect of having Axem on the team? Also, about the short-range subspace jump: same question.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 17, 2010, 05:57:06 pm
Axem was only hired after Vassago's Dirge was already complete; If there are story similarities, they are entirely coincidental.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 17, 2010, 06:03:43 pm
Axem was only hired after Vassago's Dirge was already complete; If there are story similarities, they are entirely coincidental.
I was speaking more of presentation than story in this case, but I suppose your answer works just as well for that.  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on August 17, 2010, 06:20:02 pm
It's a coincidence too! I only joined after I had finished FREDding Vassago's Dirge and then I saw it and smirked. Great minds think a like, don't you think? ;)

Say didn't Transcend do it fir-
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 17, 2010, 08:21:52 pm
On the topic of Vassago's Dirge, I noticed
Spoiler:
a creepy red nebula pshyco mission here and there both. Was this intentional, coincidental, or a side effect of having Axem on the team? Also, about the short-range subspace jump: same question.

It's an homage to Transcend, actually.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 17, 2010, 09:06:24 pm
Besides, WiH's is more mindrape than the other two combined. :shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 17, 2010, 10:53:36 pm
Besides, WiH's is more mindrape than the other two combined. :shaking:

What? You serious?
I don't know about you but I think Transcend's far creepier than WiH, if only for the atmosphere (being alone with no real allies with a voice pleading for help, as opposed to the voice telling you to help the side you're on win).

Hey, Transcend's basically a psychological horror story, while BP (and by extension WiH) is more "a bit of everything that's awesome" flavoured.

Also, red nebulas with black background are the creepiest and most atmospheric. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 17, 2010, 10:55:18 pm
I certainly think the Transcend one was scarier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 17, 2010, 11:23:16 pm
Depends on how you look at it, I guess. Usually, "horror stories" don't really do much for me- Transcend was creepy, but it's a horror campaign, so I guess I was "expecting it", if that makes any sense. WiH though- it's not a horror story. It's actually more like distilled awesome but that's beside the point. I'm hooked up to some psych evaluator talking to what passes for a therapist for around here. There's a weird value called "NGRI" which I think, from the literature, is "being contacted mindscrewed by Vishnans".

Then the psych dude starts talking about destiny and destruction and that I'll have to destroy the GTVA, and at first I'm all "WTF", because this is the last thing I'm expecting to happen. Then those insane flashes start, like I'm being communicated with at barely above the liminal threshold. Then I find myself in a blood-red nebula, talking to this "Ken" dude who I realize is not a Vishnan.

I'm talking to a goddamn SHIVAN.

This is the species that destroyed Vasuda Prime and would have glassed Earth. The species that, given the chance, would probably wipe out every living thing in our universe. Talking to the Vishnans is creepy enough, but I'm being mind-screwed by THE SPECIES THAT WOULD DESTROY EVERYTHING I KNOW IN AN INSTANT.

The Transcendant is creepy enough. He's powerful, insane and out of control. The mind-screw potential is all there as well. But he at least wants to be stopped. The Shivans have no such inhibitions.

Then I get to the cargo containers. They're apparently the communication between the Shivan and myself, so there's a good chance I'll go insane just by reading them. Or something. (Which does sort of happen btw). So I sit there, reading insanely disjointed poetry while being watched by a Shivan... device thing which could rip my fighter apart. I'm pretty sure a frakking Sesame Street episode would be mindscrew if delivered in that format. It's like I'm in the company of the whole Sathanas fleet that destroyed Capella, and they're WATCHING ME.

 :shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 18, 2010, 01:03:58 am
The Transcendant saw into the deepness of the universe. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 18, 2010, 02:38:16 am
Perhaps the Transcendant is the 'pilot' of the Preserver, or the Dante's.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 18, 2010, 04:15:27 am
To be fair when Transcend came out there weren't all the technical goodies in. For example that big eye that flashed over the screen helps making that mission much creepier.

Spoiler:
Oh I didn't mention it before, but I loved it when the computer detected Laporte being agitated and asked wether the user wanted to see kitten pictures to calm down :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrashMan on August 18, 2010, 05:14:38 am
Just finished the War in Heaven.

Spoiler:

Top-notch effort. Excellent FREDing, quality models and visuals, incredibly well-done cutscenes, brilliant music selection. From a technical standpoint, pure brilliance.

BUT (there's always a but, isn't it)...the story is killing it for me. The political background, the admirals and their maneuvers and plotting, the mission design - all are excellent. It's the background that seems to have a mix of all the things I hate.
Chosen One syndrome, prophetic visions, vishnians (they call themselves vishnias? Seriously, shivans is a codname given to the race..and the vishinan "name" magically matches?) and the Brahmas of old and all that business between them and the shivies. As ideas and concepts, I hate them in their very core with the blazing intensity of a million supernovas.

And the vibe I got...like some religious-political propaganda pamphlet. Seriously, I felt like the campaign was advertising this Unbutu and Buddhism or whatever.

It just looked like the psychological and religious mumbo-jumbo were added to create some false sense of depth. I found it boring frankly. If I wanted to read a novel, I would, so all those story part about what Naomi is doing or thinking - superfluous and not working well in the medium - at least not in the way it was presented.

Final verdict: 7/10
IF you don't have a problem with the above mentioned story elements - 9/10.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 18, 2010, 05:20:56 am
You must have hated AoA then. Most of those things mentioned took a backseat to the war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 18, 2010, 05:44:40 am
Just finished the War in Heaven.

Spoiler:
Seriously, shivans is a codname given to the race..and the vishinan "name" magically matches?)

Spoiler:
Had you read the techroom, it would have become clear that the whole Vishnan/Brahman naming scheme was something the Vishnans did for Sam Bei's benefit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 18, 2010, 09:42:57 am
you didn't even have to read the techroom for that if you played AoA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 18, 2010, 10:01:19 am
I have read some of this thread and have a few questions about what is being talked about

Spoiler:
1. I heard someone say that Noemi is hearing Shivans, not Vishnans. What evidence of this exists?

2. Who are Xinny and Zero? Are they those guys who disabled me in three seconds in that one mission?

A final note: Its hard for me to feel guilty for Noemi when she says she hates liking combat and then goes off and does it some more. Doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 18, 2010, 10:07:36 am
Spoiler:
1. I heard someone say that Noemi is hearing Shivans, not Vishnans. What evidence of this exists?

2. Who are Xinny and Zero? Are they those guys who disabled me in three seconds in that one mission?
Spoiler:
1. I think it fits in with the WiH is AoA inverted dynamic. Also it'd just be super mega awesome.

2. Xinny and Zero are the pilots that flew with you in "Into the Lion's Den" from the FS2 main campaign (along with Snipes). They return as the uber elite pilots in bp2-07 "My Brother, My Enemy" that fly Erinyes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 18, 2010, 10:17:57 am
Quote
A final note: Its hard for me to feel guilty for Noemi when she says she hates liking combat and then goes off and does it some more. Doesn't make sense.
Spoiler:
It does. Just look at the dialogue in the very first mission. Somethign like "... I can't just sit around while those Jovians risk their lives for us ..."
So while she hates fighting and what it does to her, she's willing to pay that price to save the lives of innocents and comrades.
But that's nothing to feel guilty about. Maybe sad or sympathetic or pity, but not guilty.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 18, 2010, 10:35:00 am
I should've been specific to the letter when I was talking about the Ken mission only. :blah:
Sure, disappearing Freighters / Transports and fighters is freaky ****, but with Ken, the flashes of imagery made it clear that the pilot, Laporte; (You) is being royally ****ed with in the head.
Maybe it didn't have the auditoral dialogue hidden in the middle of a staticy mess like on Transcend, i.e: "Help me...HELP ME! PLEASE."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 18, 2010, 10:58:01 am
Spoiler:
Flashing images is usually creepy enough, but the context in which they're presented makes it clear that Noemi is being mindscrewed at right above the liminal threshold. So it's anyone's guess as to what's going on below the liminal threshold. The fact that Noemi becomes a killing machine just reinforces that point: the Shivans have been manipulating her to force her to want to destroy the GTVA. She hates what she's become, because on a conscious level, she's still that child of Ubuntu- but that combat high makes a perfect breeding ground for Shivan "KILL KILL KILL" ideals.

And these are definitely Shivans she's talking to. I mean, "one side must be destroyed"? Does that sound like a Vishnan to anyone?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 18, 2010, 11:04:22 am
Destroying to preserve, on the other hand...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 18, 2010, 11:42:30 am
Just finished the War in Heaven.

Spoiler:

BUT (there's always a but, isn't it)...the story is killing it for me. The political background, the admirals and their maneuvers and plotting, the mission design - all are excellent.
Thank you!

Quote
It's the background that seems to have a mix of all the things I hate.

Actually, we thought about you during design, and there are some nods in m04 specifically designed to assuage your concerns.

Quote
Chosen One syndrome, prophetic visions, vishnians (they call themselves vishnias? Seriously, shivans is a codname given to the race..and the vishinan "name" magically matches?)

Sam Bei named the Vishnans; it was his call. The Vishnans plucked it from his brain.

Quote
and the Brahmas of old and all that business between them and the shivies.

Same there.

Quote
As ideas and concepts, I hate them in their very core with the blazing intensity of a million supernovas.

Really? If I'm not mistaken you're a big fan of Sword of the Stars, which includes ancient creator races (the Suul'Ka), psionics, and other fairly similar elements.

Quote
And the vibe I got...like some religious-political propaganda pamphlet. Seriously, I felt like the campaign was advertising this Unbutu and Buddhism or whatever.

Hrm. Why?

All that said I'm glad you enjoyed it.

A final note: Its hard for me to feel guilty for Noemi when she says she hates liking combat and then goes off and does it some more. Doesn't make sense.

Many drug addicts hate their addiction, but nonetheless: they're addicts.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on August 18, 2010, 03:57:13 pm
I was TENSED during the Ken mission. I was worried during the entire mission I'd get one of those 'screams with a scary face' like you see in those youtube scream traps.  :lol: Now they'll probably add that to WiH 2.  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 18, 2010, 04:21:42 pm
On my experiance there was nothing... tense or scarry in Ken's mission. I fell... well, just uncomfortable. But, hey, i just replayed Dead Space only two-three day's before WiH, so i poses temporaly immunity for this kind of scary moments.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: utops on August 18, 2010, 06:10:55 pm
Spoiler:
Hate this campaign because of story and that hippie  pseudo psychological teleogicall bull*** - Chater is anoying, ppl in this universe talk like spooks they insideout theyselves  in words too much like closest friends not like the military soldiers in wartime. Characters are simmiliar to this  in books by Paulo Cohelo and i hate this hard.  
Technicaly campagin is very good executed and gameplay is also strong point of BP
Too bad that story and character development ruin pleasant feeling towards  WiH as whole.
Also i have troubble to enter in to comm menu in mission near Saturn.

I found easteregg

Spoiler:
Sathanas emerge from subspace and hug me :D awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 18, 2010, 06:26:52 pm
Spoiler:
1. I think it fits in with the WiH is AoA inverted dynamic. Also it'd just be super mega awesome.

Spoiler:
It does have...interesting implications that Bei, who is arguably considerably more human than the average pilot should be in the middle of a mission, can communicate with the Vishians, while Noemi, who is probably psychopathic, can hear the Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 18, 2010, 06:34:24 pm
Spoiler:
1. I think it fits in with the WiH is AoA inverted dynamic. Also it'd just be super mega awesome.

Spoiler:
It does have...interesting implications that Bei, who is arguably considerably more human than the average pilot should be in the middle of a mission, can communicate with the Vishians, while Noemi, who is probably psychopathic, can hear the Shivans.

Spoiler:
If any of that is true, which I can neither confirm nor deny nor even make any remark with information content upon, my next question would be which direction the causality runs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hippy on August 18, 2010, 06:34:34 pm
Just want to add my voice to those proclaiming the sheer greatness of this campaign!

Thank you all so, so, so much for the amazing BP:WiH

Blew my mind. Truly epic in proportions and I for one can't wait for another installment. While other disagree, imo the NPC characters were wonderful and distinctly different in personality. Lorna Simms & the development of the WarGods as a squadron is done very, very well. Over the course of what is essentially a 'short' campaign (compared to FS2 retail or Derelict), the player nonetheless feels like they've been fighting forever. Dialogue points enhance this tremedously and provided a atmosphere of combat fatigue. The interactions with Lorna add to the sense of involvement in the squadron, making me actully feel part of the unit, with an emotional investment in it's success.

The Music! I've still got the Saturn missions track running through my head   :lol:

Only 1 thing I found clunky -> having to pause game to read the dialogue (because I didn't want to miss any of it), as others have said already, VA for BP:WiH would take it from a 9/10 to 10/10 for me. That said, even without the VA I found the dialogue captivating. A VA project is going to need a bunch of excellent female voice actors though.

Also: kitten picture!  :lol:  
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 18, 2010, 06:39:27 pm
I don't see any debug build.  Could you please give me a link? :eek2:


Update:

I have ran the debug program and learned nothing more.  It keeps saying No Module for a bunch of stuff.  Let me please see a screenshot to see if I got everything installed correctly. 

Any help would be appreciated.

Ralph
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 18, 2010, 06:41:32 pm
...

You, as an untrained user, can't learn more. Which is why you'll have to post the fs2_open.log from your data folder, so that guys who do know how to read these logs can tell you what's wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 18, 2010, 06:46:20 pm
I don't see any debug build.  Could you please give me a link? :eek2:


Update:

I have ran the debug program and learned nothing more.  It keeps saying No Module for a bunch of stuff.  Let me please see a screenshot to see if I got everything installed correctly. 

Any help would be appreciated.

Ralph

You're doing well! Go to FreeSpace2/data/, find the file called fs2open.log, and post it here.

Just want to add my voice to those proclaiming the sheer greatness of this campaign!

Thank you all so, so, so much for the amazing BP:WiH

Blew my mind. Truly epic in proportions and I for one can't wait for another installment. While other disagree, imo the NPC characters were wonderful and distinctly different in personality. Lorna Simms & the development of the WarGods as a squadron is done very, very well. Over the course of what is essentially a 'short' campaign (compared to FS2 retail or Derelict), the player nonetheless feels like they've been fighting forever. Dialogue points enhance this tremedously and provided a atmosphere of combat fatigue. The interactions with Lorna add to the sense of involvement in the squadron, making me actully feel part of the unit, with an emotional investment in it's success.

The Music! I've still got the Saturn missions track running through my head   :lol:

Only 1 thing I found clunky -> having to pause game to read the dialogue (because I didn't want to miss any of it), as others have said already, VA for BP:WiH would take it from a 9/10 to 10/10 for me. That said, even without the VA I found the dialogue captivating. A VA project is going to need a bunch of excellent female voice actors though.

Also: kitten picture!  :lol: 

Thank you, kind sir or madam! Glad you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 18, 2010, 06:59:54 pm
here it is:


[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 18, 2010, 07:02:44 pm
Okay.

Move your blueplanet 2 files out of blueplanet2/blueplanet2/, and just put them in /blueplanet2/. You don't need a second blueplanet2 folder inside your first one.

Second, please make sure you've got a complete Age of Aquarius install located in /blueplanet/; I only see the audio1 archive there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 18, 2010, 07:27:25 pm
Spoiler:
If any of that is true, which I can neither confirm nor deny nor even make any remark with information content upon, my next question would be which direction the causality runs.

Spoiler:
My assumption would be that they're only capable of communicating effectively with a similar mindset. Causality both ways; it requires a matched set, a receptive human and a member of the other species at the fringe of their own norms. Hence relative rarity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 18, 2010, 07:59:12 pm
Thank you General!! That was it!!!! :lol:

And that would be a good idea E!!! :nod:

This calls for drink!  ;)


PS. What was meant by the Core Files Updated?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 18, 2010, 09:17:45 pm
I think if UEF have beams, then they should be either red or white.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 18, 2010, 10:38:24 pm
An Earth fleet with white beams already exists.
Besides, why giving the UEF beams? Their ships are already fine as they are. It feels original and deviates from the raves massive battles between capships in FS2 are.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 18, 2010, 10:41:04 pm
UEF beams should be blue or yellow, since they'd likely be reverse-engineered from GTVA beams. Although... UEF + beams = suck. Missiles FTW.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Troyd on August 18, 2010, 10:51:42 pm
No UEF beams, unless its got something to do with that project thing.


The uniqueness and technological/social deviation from the separation of the two human entities is one of the major points of this mod and its story.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 18, 2010, 10:55:22 pm
No UEF beams, unless its got something to do with that project thing.


The uniqueness and technological/social deviation from the separation of the two human entities is one of the major points of this mod and its story.

Yes.

I think people often forget that - get this, this is crazy:

More time has passed between the Isolation of Sol and recontact with the GTVA (i.e. BP1) than passed between the discovery of subspace travel and the destruction of the Lucifer.

By a factor of more than two.

The GTA existed for about 20 years. The UEF has existed for 30+, possibly 40+ (I'd have to check our timeline.) The UEF has been the ruling government in Sol for more than half the length of human starflight.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 18, 2010, 11:05:00 pm
Probably just as a result of some eggheads who want to try out 'new' technologies. There should only be a few of them since they are strictly experimental and they exist  either because they rig some existing ships, or making last minute modification on some ships that were under construction since there are not enough time to build a proper one. The UEF actually have access to the Lucifer wreckage which contain the first beam weapon encountered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on August 18, 2010, 11:05:44 pm
This is how to save the human race :

1) Don't do anything of the above post.


Spoiler:
I really don't see how the UEF can win the war at this point, at least through conventional military means. Too many losses taken and not enough damage done, and now with the Vasudans also entering the war. I do wonder what the good admiral's secret project is, it may end up turning the tide.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on August 18, 2010, 11:47:59 pm
You don't just slap reverse engineered weapons on ships for no reason, you'd have to shift your tactics and everything.

The GTVA has had time to study Shivan tech, Earth hasn't.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 19, 2010, 01:17:17 am
Reverse engineering isn't easy, especially after 30-40 years of divergence. Even if the technology was easily understood by UEF engineers, are the resources (chemicals, materials whatever...) needed to build beam cannons in obtainable Sol? In what kind of quantities? What kind of R&D and capital investments are required to mass produce beam cannons, and are they possible or desirable in wartime?

Spoiler:
Especially since the UEF has lost Jupiter and lost half their earth/moon infrastructure and looks set to lose the war in another 6 months?

How long would it take, given that the war has been only 18-months long? And as the manwiththemachinegun said, would it be effective to intergrate these systems with exsisting UEF systems and personnel? And that's just the suspension of disbelief issues, not the actual desirability of it story-wise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 19, 2010, 01:37:04 am
Spoiler:
I really don't see how the UEF can win the war at this point, at least through conventional military means. Too many losses taken and not enough damage done, and now with the Vasudans also entering the war. I do wonder what the good admiral's secret project is, it may end up turning the tide.
Spoiler:
I don't think Byrne and the Elders' secret project is some kind of superjuggernaut. At least I hope not. I'm sure the BP guys are more awesome than that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on August 19, 2010, 01:58:56 am
Spoiler:
I really don't see how the UEF can win the war at this point, at least through conventional military means. Too many losses taken and not enough damage done, and now with the Vasudans also entering the war. I do wonder what the good admiral's secret project is, it may end up turning the tide.
Spoiler:
I don't think Byrne and the Elders' secret project is some kind of superjuggernaut. At least I hope not. I'm sure the BP guys are more awesome than that.


Spoiler:
Never said it was, but I've got the vibe it is something big and important. There's more ways to win a war than one uber ship of doom.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 19, 2010, 03:18:44 am
Whatever Byrne is up to, it is obviously related to
Spoiler:
the Beis and Project NAGARI
Perhaps he's trying to
Spoiler:
summon the Vishnans?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 19, 2010, 03:25:54 am
You don't just slap reverse engineered weapons on ships for no reason, you'd have to shift your tactics and everything.
This.

If the UEF were to adopt beams, they would have to change their entire Fighter-Frigate Operations handbook. It would have to be a much looser system of joint-arms operations and that would give up their main advantage, which is the ability to for fighters and frigates to work side by side.

The spontaneous fire of beams and the lack of warning pilots are given means that their existing combined arms methods would be ineffectual and would result in higher friendly casualties influenced by blue-on-blue beam fire. You simply cannot fly *that* close to a ship whose beams may just go 'BOOM', and with it, your fighter.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 19, 2010, 03:56:16 am
Actually I see comparatively little friendly beam fire. Sure there would be a few casualties but weighing it up you wouldn't need to completely revise your tactical approach.

I agree with your point but you'll have to do better than that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 19, 2010, 04:13:35 am
Well it really depends on what you're using the beams for.

If you're going to use them as point defence systems, you'd have to reduce their range or effectiveness to make them viable options, in my opinion. UEF fighters typically work in close proximity to their frigates, in a combined arms approach. When you have a weapon like a beam cannon, that fires without warning and has the potential to inflict great damage on its target, you really have to exercise caution. And especially if you're using them as point defence weapons, you'd need to have a few of them, and that wall of beam fire is potentially dangerous to friendly pilots, in particular, its range. With a weapon like a flak cannon, at least if you miss the target it has a shorter range and won't potentially strike a friendly frigate or ship a kilometre away.

Since the UEF like having potent anti-fighter armament, a decent number of beams to fulfill the role of point defence is probably likely.

Anyway, perhaps you wouldn't need a complete revision of tactics, but I think it's definetely going to affect the way UEF fighters and frigs to business.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 19, 2010, 04:44:26 am
In that case an artillery or arsenal beam UEF ship would be more viable, keep the frigates in the field and have the beam-ships jump in when required. Or a Titan/Ravana/Hecate strategy, again keep the frigates in the field but have the beam-vessel providing fighter support for the battle group, and again jump-in when beams are required. But yes, it's completely true that it wouldn't simply be 'put beams on every UEF ship' and just follow GTVA tactics...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 19, 2010, 05:26:12 am
Spoiler:
Hate this campaign because of story and that hippie  pseudo psychological teleogicall bull*** - Chater is anoying, ppl in this universe talk like spooks they insideout theyselves  in words too much like closest friends not like the military soldiers in wartime. Characters are simmiliar to this  in books by Paulo Cohelo and i hate this hard.  
Technicaly campagin is very good executed and gameplay is also strong point of BP
Too bad that story and character development ruin pleasant feeling towards  WiH as whole.
Also i have troubble to enter in to comm menu in mission near Saturn.

I found easteregg

Spoiler:
Sathanas emerge from subspace and hug me :D awesome.


I am glad that you enjoyed the gameplay and mission design, but I find your interpretation of the storyline elements somewhat lacking, especially with regards to the offending elements you mentioned.

Saying you dislike the campaign because of the story is ok, but you don't really specify many elements of the actual storyline that you disliked, so I can not really help there.

With regards to "hippie" elements of the background and story line, I can say that you are first of all wrong - the UEF are not exactly hippies, as should be obvious if you read between the lines. They can actually be quite ruthless to fulfill their goals. Not just flowers and sunshine all the time.

 The Ubuntu philosophy does prefer peaceful resolutions (as should all sensible sentient beings), but you'll notice they are ready and willing to defend themselves and theirs. Also, the Ubuntu philosophy has different influences depending on region. Some of the individuals do have serious difficulty fitting violent acts of war to their personal philosophies. However, there are very valid in-universe reasons to why the UEF culture developed (was guided to develope, really) as it did. Many of those are exposed in the WiH prose on the web pages, but some of the reasons have not been revealed yet. If the reason to "hippyness"as you called it were unclear, I hope this will help to clarify them. If you just plain dislike it, then I suppose I can not help you because the existence of Ubuntu philosophy and its influence on UEF was one of the primary reasons for GTVA to start the war in the first place.

None of Blue Planet series would exist in its current form if there were no reason for the war to begin with...

As far as "pseudo-psychological teleological bull****" goes, I am hesistant to ask if you are aware of what these terms actually mean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleology), so I'm going to have to assume what you actually mean to say.

If you mean to question the value of seemingly "supernatural" elements of the storyline, I can only say that there are no supernatural elements in Blue Planet. Everything that happens is natural. There are phenomena with unknown explanation, but that doesn't make them "supernatural", just unknown - so far. I am hesitant to further extrapolate on this tangent; I can just re-iterate my suggestion to read through the background material as thoroughly as you can.

What comes to annoying chatter, there is no excuse for that. There is simply too much of it - to appear as just text. Voice-acted, this problem would not really exist as you would hear each message spoken in real-time.

However, as far as the content of the messages goes, I find your argument a bit off the mark. I don't know of you have any military experience, but front line units usually are pretty close-knit crews. From the Wargods crew, there's pretty much just Simms, Ng'Mei and Olefumi as the "old guard", rest are replacements that they are going through at rapid pace. Laporte has a very close relationship with Simms (what kind of depends on your character interpretation). They are close friends as much as soldiers in war time. In the first part of the campaign, Brie and Kassim are Laporte's relatives, so their familiarity is explained there.

It is true that combat communications should usually be as short, coherent and informative as possible, but that sort of utilitarian approach makes for a bad way of telling the story with FreeSpace missions. We have tried to include miltiary-style language as much as possible, but that's really to just give a semi-professional impression to what the pilots are doing.

If you look atthe retail FreeSpace campaigns, that's the way it was done there too.

I hope you'll be able to enjoy the next parts of Blue Planet despite the things you disliked.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 19, 2010, 06:01:56 am
I guess there is nothing wrong with all this chatter in brief moment of war. Remember, guy's, they are not in real fight with anyone after destruction of Lucifer! So i find it normal.

And besides - i can't image fight group of 4-6 soldier, that do not have any kind of relationship, simply becouse it's a something, that psychology called "small group".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 19, 2010, 06:10:57 am
BTW, BP-team, i can't still get it, why human community in GTVA space don't get troubled about this war? I mean, if i was there, i probably shouted: "What the hell guy's?! Are you gone crazy? This IS Earth, how the hell there can be illegal goverment?? Thats a bull****"

And i think that i'm not alone in this, i guess.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 19, 2010, 06:16:46 am
BTW, BP-team, i can't still get it, why human community in GTVA space don't get troubled about this war? I mean, if i was there, i probably shouted: "What the hell guy's?! Are you gone crazy? This IS Earth, how the hell there can be illegal goverment?? Thats a bull****"

And i think that i'm not alone in this, i guess.
If you were overseas and subsequently found out that the government of your home country got overthrown by a bunch of personality cult dictator pricks, would you not favor their removal and the re-institution of the previous government?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 19, 2010, 06:17:10 am
Well there most likely is that going on.

But remember that as the only foreign body in the Sol system, the GTVA has some means of making sure the public knows 'Only what it's supposed to', and/or bastardizing the UEF in any kind of public announcements or forums.

In other words, the GTVA will probably spare no effort in painting the Federation as 'the bad guys', and themselves as the ones fighting for justice in an effort to get the population on their side (essential for the success of any war back home). Also, remember why Severanti was relieved. The Alliance wants Sol finished, and fast. One of the reasons most likely being that the Alliance don't want the general populace to start turning into a Vietnam-esque body of opposition toward the war, and allow it the time to do that.

EDIT: And what Snail said too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 19, 2010, 06:18:54 am
Going from a democractically elected government to a semireligious autocratic wtf that doesn't even register as a government to most people is usually regarded as a step backward.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 19, 2010, 06:22:26 am
Yeah. Citizens of Ubuntu might be willing to submit to a bunch of old guys sitting around a table claiming to hear whispers from the flying Spaghetti Monsters that run the universe, but not us... :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 19, 2010, 06:25:30 am
BTW, BP-team, i can't still get it, why human community in GTVA space don't get troubled about this war? I mean, if i was there, i probably shouted: "What the hell guy's?! Are you gone crazy? This IS Earth, how the hell there can be illegal goverment?? Thats a bull****"

And i think that i'm not alone in this, i guess.

The problem is that the GTVA has absolute control over the news that come out of Sol. There is no Internet to carry "unbiased" reporting out of Sol.
At any rate, the official reason for this war is that Sol has been taken over by a pacifistic, religiously motivated party that has been busy performing experiments on Terra's population. This jeopardizes Earth's chances of survival against a new Shivan assault, and since Earth is the largest, most highly developed economy in terran space, it endangers all of humanity.
Now, are there other opinions in the GTVA, pundits arguing against this war? Yes, certainly. However, in the context of the campaign, those aren't mentioned because they're not important. Let's just say that this war has an approval rating slightly below that of America's entry into WW2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 19, 2010, 06:52:48 am
But if the war drags on much longer, the GTVA will have to change their line.
That they were able to hold out against a superiour enemy for over two years shows that the UEF aren't completely pacifistic and incapable of defending themselfs as the GTVA claims them to be. Now add the Tevs high fighter losses into the mix (that many death can't be hidden for long, no matter how good their information controll and propaganda is) and surely some people "back home"  will start to question the GTVAs motives and/or their validity.
Which would of course explain why the GTVA gave Steele the freedoms he seems to have in commanding the Sol invasion forces. They run out of time and thus are willing to take greater risks both with the vasudans and on matters of moral (like nuclear bombing of civilian areas on Luna or calling the "total war clause" of the BETAC into effect).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 19, 2010, 07:01:21 am
About the fighter losses,

Keep in mind that historically, a side will unavoidably overclaim its share of kills. That, and that listing the figures of the pilots who ejected safely sounds a lot more friendly than "fifty fighter losses today!"

And then at the end of the sausage factory, you have something like 300 Federal Fighter Losses vs. 60 GTVA Pilots Recovered Today. But yeah, there are ways to hide the amount of fighter losses.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 19, 2010, 07:09:28 am

If you were overseas and subsequently found out that the government of your home country got overthrown by a bunch of personality cult dictator pricks, would you not favor their removal and the re-institution of the previous government?

Don't think so. And in any case don't favor returning to homeworld via heavy armor and weapon. Nuked Moon, Mars and averybody in GTVA think's it's okey... i don't think it's right.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 19, 2010, 07:11:48 am
But if the war drags on much longer, the GTVA will have to change their line.
That they were able to hold out against a superiour enemy for over two years shows that the UEF aren't completely pacifistic and incapable of defending themselfs as the GTVA claims them to be. Now add the Tevs high fighter losses into the mix (that many death can't be hidden for long, no matter how good their information controll and propaganda is) and surely some people "back home"  will start to question the GTVAs motives and/or their validity.
Which would of course explain why the GTVA gave Steele the freedoms he seems to have in commanding the Sol invasion forces. They run out of time and thus are willing to take greater risks both with the vasudans and on matters of moral (like nuclear bombing of civilian areas on Luna or calling the "total war clause" of the BETAC into effect).

Well.. that make sense, on some point, but still... well, maybe it's just my Russian soul. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 19, 2010, 07:15:04 am
Oh right, forgot that in WiH pilots can eject.
But while it's true that a side might overclaim their killcounts, but the Techroom entries (which sound more like an outsiders point of view) speak about the GTVA suffering great fighter losses untill the dump the tactics they used against the Shivans, which turned out to be disasterious against UEF fighters. On top of that we see massive numbers of GTVA fighters destroyed almost every mission.
Spoiler:
Just take the first mission:
3 Pegasi, 4 Artemis and 4 Myrmidons destroyed before the safepoint. Several Rhea, Boanerges and escorts (don't remember the exact numbers there, but at least 6 Rhea and 3 Boa) after that. And all the UEF had on scene were two damaged cuisers and one wing of three rookies.

Quote
But yeah, there are ways to hide the amount of fighter losses.
And how would you explain to the families of those pilots why they are no longer coming home or calling or writing? Claiming all those people missing, out of communication or dead by accidents won't work for long.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrashMan on August 19, 2010, 08:49:54 am
Quote
and the Brahmas of old and all that business between them and the shivies.

Same there.

What? All that discussion between the Shivans and Vishnian nd some kind of council and ancient creators - all that is not real? Bei made it up?


Quote
Quote
As ideas and concepts, I hate them in their very core with the blazing intensity of a million supernovas.

Really? If I'm not mistaken you're a big fan of Sword of the Stars, which includes ancient creator races (the Suul'Ka), psionics, and other fairly similar elements.

Different animals altogether.
SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.




Quote
And the vibe I got...like some religious-political propaganda pamphlet. Seriously, I felt like the campaign was advertising this Unbutu and Buddhism or whatever.


Quote
Hrm. Why?

All that said I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Hard to explain. I just did. Maybe because it was brought up so often.

Hey, I gave it 9/10 (if you like such plot stuff). That's as high as any game will EVER get on my meter. But I usually score games in ranges, since I feel it is more accurate. Note that 5 equals average = good.
So if I say 6,7-9 out of 10....That's high praise from me. IF you ever see me giving anything a 10/10, feel free to shot me, as I lost my mind and every last shred of objectivity I had.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 19, 2010, 08:53:50 am
Quote
and the Brahmas of old and all that business between them and the shivies.

Same there.

What? All that discussion between the Shivans and Vishnian nd some kind of council and ancient creators - all that is not real? Bei made it up?

No, he didn't make it up. However, what Bei saw was a heavily simplified and not necessarily accurate message from the Vishnans. The Vishnans do have an agenda of their own, and so what they told Bei could be deliberate misinformation on their part.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 19, 2010, 09:15:44 am
Quote
SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.
Quote from: Wikipedia
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy  for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious  for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 19, 2010, 09:28:15 am
Trashman is, like many do, simply applying the label to something he doesn't like without regard to the term's meaning.

Nevermind that FS is more or less built around the concept of a wish-fulfilment story being a first-person combat flight sim with an AFGNCAAP protagonist and therefore a Mary Sue is the best form of character to represent the player.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 19, 2010, 10:21:40 am
At this point, we do not know the background information surrounding the GTVA high command or the Ubuntu elders. Even Steele is probably just following orders.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 19, 2010, 10:24:42 am
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 19, 2010, 10:41:16 am
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:
  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 19, 2010, 10:53:43 am
I'm not a spiritual man but I've lived in Asia long enough, and I know the basics. BP Ubuntu's similarities with Buddhism is superficial at best, Ubuntu doesn't talk anything about inner vacuity or reincarnation circles. A large part of Ubuntu and UEF success comes from good economic models, especially infrastructure investments (with certain real-world parallels here) and a spirit to achieve worldly goals, including scientific achievement - trust me, neither Buddhism or Taoism or Confucius talk much about that. With regards to the Elders, it's interesting, I think I'll have to see more before I can really judge. Prima facie, a closed one party circle would seem contradictory to transparent and accountable government, but it's not impossible either.

At the same time, there's much we don't know about the GTVA, especially with the post-Capella changes in the BP universe. I'm not sure we can just assume it's western democracy in space. Sure, they have a general assembly, but how many political parties? What is the balance of power? What is electoral system across the different GTVA worlds? Does the system encourage citizen involvement in government, or does the business sector or the military dominate?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 19, 2010, 10:53:59 am
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:
If that's the case, I must be a Shivan. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 19, 2010, 11:14:03 am
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...
Martin Mandho = Darius
Noemi Laporte = Battuta

:nervous:

:shaking:
SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Fix'd.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 19, 2010, 11:18:12 am
BTW, BP-team, i can't still get it, why human community in GTVA space don't get troubled about this war? I mean, if i was there, i probably shouted: "What the hell guy's?! Are you gone crazy? This IS Earth, how the hell there can be illegal goverment?? Thats a bull****"

And i think that i'm not alone in this, i guess.

Oh, there's definitely some discontent on the home front; I believe you get hints of this during War in Heaven. Remember, one of the reasons for the war is the fact that the GTVA does not have a great grip on the hearts and minds of its people; it lacks soft power. The war has polarized the populace, both rallying a lot of support and crystallizing a lot of opposition. The GTVA has to manage presentation of the war very carefully.

Going from a democractically elected government to a semireligious autocratic wtf that doesn't even register as a government to most people is usually regarded as a step backward.

Well bear in mind that the Federation is perfectly democratic on the year-to-year level; it just has this weird little Council attached to it, which has very little short-term power but steers things in the long run. It's like the Supreme Court but bigger and more executive than judicial.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 19, 2010, 12:47:33 pm
I think if UEF have beams, then they should be either red or white.

Purple!

OOC: Nice user name.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 19, 2010, 02:01:55 pm
Red would be too Shivan and I don't think purple would fit in with the coloring of their ships. Maybe turquiose?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 19, 2010, 03:51:44 pm
BTW, BP-team, i can't still get it, why human community in GTVA space don't get troubled about this war? I mean, if i was there, i probably shouted: "What the hell guy's?! Are you gone crazy? This IS Earth, how the hell there can be illegal goverment?? Thats a bull****"

Rampant propaganda that shows the Federation as an autocratic dictatorship, almost a theocracy led by the Council of Elders.

You should look at history for examples about how unbelievably easy it is to make people feel threatened by the faction you want to go to war with.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: terran_emperor on August 19, 2010, 04:06:31 pm
Tell me, was the Halo-verse an inluence of the tactics of the two sides?

Cos Capital ship warfare in this reminds me of how it is described in the Halo books:

The UEF ships relying on Railguns and Missile Barrages is very similar to the UNSC tactics

Whilst the GTVA ships ripped things appart with beams - very similar to the Covenant...

And the UEF scoring minor victories but getting trounced in the big battles is also basically the UNSC's story

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on August 19, 2010, 04:15:06 pm
Battles in Freespace are usually spread out over a wide corridor of space, and rarely are there huge, decisive clashes.

Remember all the way back in FS1? Operation Thresher had the GTA lose over 300+ fighters and pilots, and yet that didn't effect fleet operations at all it seemed.

Thus I have no trouble swallowing a higher rate of attrition with even more dangerous weapons. Battles of Endor don't usually reflect how the GTVA/GTA usually fight, it's more spread out than that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 19, 2010, 04:24:59 pm
GTVA has no interest in destroying the UEF or glassing planets. That's a huge difference in the strategy compared to Covenant.

The biggest problem GTVA faces is in fact not the UEF military, but the logistical impossibility of occupying Earth (and, to lesser extent Mars). The best they can hope is to take control of the solar system space and orbital facilities, but if Earth population by and large decides they don't want to give their resources to the GTVA, what would GTVA do?

Send in the Marines? The Earth alone is probably still the largest population center of humanity, and most likely more populous than the GTVA as a whole.

As far as comparison to Covenant (pre-Halo 2 events) would go, their interest in humanity would be complete destruction.

So the question arises - what does the GTVA hope to accomplish with the war? Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?

Just saying that if the UEF decides to go for organized resistance on planetside, GTVA would have a hard time dealing with it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: terran_emperor on August 19, 2010, 04:34:10 pm
Thats not what i was saying. And I dont have a problem with that

What I was saying was that the UEF (losing) with Missiles&Rail Guns/GTVA (Wining) with Beams reminds me of how Capship combat  is described in the Halo-verse.

So I was asking if the Halo-verse was an influence
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 19, 2010, 04:42:33 pm
GTVA has no interest in destroying the UEF or glassing planets. That's a huge difference in the strategy compared to Covenant.

The biggest problem GTVA faces is in fact not the UEF military, but the logistical impossibility of occupying Earth (and, to lesser extent Mars). The best they can hope is to take control of the solar system space and orbital facilities, but if Earth population by and large decides they don't want to give their resources to the GTVA, what would GTVA do?

Send in the Marines? The Earth alone is probably still the largest population center of humanity, and most likely more populous than the GTVA as a whole.

As far as comparison to Covenant (pre-Halo 2 events) would go, their interest in humanity would be complete destruction.

So the question arises - what does the GTVA hope to accomplish with the war? Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?

Just saying that if the UEF decides to go for organized resistance on planetside, GTVA would have a hard time dealing with it.
Resurrect the original Harbinger?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 19, 2010, 04:55:12 pm
Because genocide is fuuuuun.


No, wait, it's not. You can't win a civil war, much less conduct an occupation, using antimatter bombs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 19, 2010, 05:05:53 pm
using antimatter bombs.

Salted fission-fusion quad warhead technically. I'm still a littler unclear on the utility there, as the slightest timing error results in fratricide and a suboptimal explosion, but...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 19, 2010, 05:12:45 pm
Just put a little dose of super-high-tech mixed with handwavium in and they work just fine. :P

Quote
Whilst the GTVA ships ripped things appart with beams - very similar to the Covenant...
The Covenant had just a single ship that used beams (not counting plasma turrets that Cortana reconfigured), the others were armed with some lasers for point defense and plasma torpedoes.
Not sure about that book with the "stealth spartans" though...

Quote
Remember all the way back in FS1? Operation Thresher had the GTA lose over 300+ fighters and pilots, and yet that didn't effect fleet operations at all it seemed.
If that came in answer to me: I wasn't talking about the fighter losses affecting the operation. I was just saying that so many dead pilots can't be hidden from the general public for long. And once those death get public, they put a lie to the GTVAs argument that the UEF is completely pacifistic and thus helpless against the Shivans, showing that High Command either was lying or seriously mistaken. Either way not a good way to stay in power in a society that's barely holding together in the first place. And the only thing that kept them together for almost two decades was the promise of reuniting with Earth (which helped focus the population into a common goal, but alienated the Vasudans - no pun intended).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 19, 2010, 05:16:18 pm
Norbert, some of the more powerful Covenant vessels had energy projectors which were massive beam cannons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 19, 2010, 09:32:35 pm
Norbert, some of the more powerful Covenant vessels had energy projectors which were massive beam cannons.

He's thinking of the one exemplar of those more powerful ships that showed up at the end of Fall of Reach.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 19, 2010, 09:55:50 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 19, 2010, 09:58:06 pm
the UEF DOES know about the shivan threat.  they have had access to the history of the GTVA post-lucifer, i assume through the defected ships and servicemen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 19, 2010, 10:01:54 pm
the UEF DOES know about the shivan threat.  they have had access to the history of the GTVA post-lucifer, i assume through the defected ships and servicemen.

Doesn't cover that they don't have a ready made fleet designed to combat the red-five-legged menace, and the GTVA does. Or did, before the UEF started knocking holes in it.

Rather short sighted there chaps, enjoy being Shivan munchies once you finish destroying your last, best hope for victory. (Yes, Noemi, I'm glaring at you)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 19, 2010, 10:08:35 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.

Taking out a government that's ruled Sol in peace and prosperity for longer than the GTA even existed probably won't endear you to the populace, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 19, 2010, 10:11:49 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.

Taking out a government that's ruled Sol in peace and prosperity for longer than the GTA even existed probably won't endear you to the populace, though.
Defeating the next Shivan incursion thanks to Sol's industry, technology, and population certainly will though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 19, 2010, 10:13:54 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.

Taking out a government that's ruled Sol in peace and prosperity for longer than the GTA even existed probably won't endear you to the populace, though.

How can it have ruled for that long? I thought it formed in the aftermath of the Luci's cataclysmic entry to the Sol system? Which makes the GTA (which was formed at around that time) just as long standing. And, honestly, a more effective government since it guided a sparsely populated colonial region through two rebellions, a shivan incursion and all the associated strifes. Admittedly, post 2nd Shivan Incursion, the glue that held the GTA together was the dream of a return to Earth, but...

Oh, and Sparda makes an excellent point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 19, 2010, 10:18:54 pm
the UEF DOES know about the shivan threat.  they have had access to the history of the GTVA post-lucifer, i assume through the defected ships and servicemen.

Doesn't cover that they don't have a ready made fleet designed to combat the red-five-legged menace, and the GTVA does. Or did, before the UEF started knocking holes in it.

Rather short sighted there chaps, enjoy being Shivan munchies once you finish destroying your last, best hope for victory. (Yes, Noemi, I'm glaring at you)

if the Sol fleet is knocking holes in the GTVA fleet, they were NOT ready to combat the shivans.  or the Sol fleet was just as ready, depending on how you look at it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 19, 2010, 10:25:54 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.

Taking out a government that's ruled Sol in peace and prosperity for longer than the GTA even existed probably won't endear you to the populace, though.

How can it have ruled for that long? I thought it formed in the aftermath of the Luci's cataclysmic entry to the Sol system?

You're thinking of the GTVA. The GTA formed 19 years before FS1 when intersystem starflight was discovered.

Quote
Which makes the GTA (which was formed at around that time) just as long standing.

After above post, this should be clearer: the GTA ruled Sol for 19 years, the Federation has been in power for 40+ (if I recall my history right.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 19, 2010, 10:29:16 pm
I'm crashing on mission 3 & 5....  with 5 being the worst ...is anyone else having that?  I'll get you the fs2.log file tomorrow if you need it.

regards,

Ralph

PS...what does schlaug mean? :confused:  because I said it to a german woman and she did this :hopping:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 19, 2010, 10:31:58 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.

Taking out a government that's ruled Sol in peace and prosperity for longer than the GTA even existed probably won't endear you to the populace, though.

How can it have ruled for that long? I thought it formed in the aftermath of the Luci's cataclysmic entry to the Sol system?

You're thinking of the GTVA. The GTA formed 19 years before FS1 when intersystem starflight was discovered.

Quote
Which makes the GTA (which was formed at around that time) just as long standing.

After above post, this should be clearer: the GTA ruled Sol for 19 years, the Federation has been in power for 40+ (if I recall my history right.)

Well, I always assumed the GTA had continuance as the Terran part of the GTVA, and the PVE folded into the fleet structure and as an equal partner in the alliance (but still, loosely, as an autonomous empire)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 19, 2010, 10:34:10 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.

Taking out a government that's ruled Sol in peace and prosperity for longer than the GTA even existed probably won't endear you to the populace, though.

How can it have ruled for that long? I thought it formed in the aftermath of the Luci's cataclysmic entry to the Sol system?

You're thinking of the GTVA. The GTA formed 19 years before FS1 when intersystem starflight was discovered.

Quote
Which makes the GTA (which was formed at around that time) just as long standing.

After above post, this should be clearer: the GTA ruled Sol for 19 years, the Federation has been in power for 40+ (if I recall my history right.)

Well, I always assumed the GTA had continuance as the Terran part of the GTVA, and the PVE folded into the fleet structure and as an equal partner in the alliance (but still, loosely, as an autonomous empire)

We're talking from the POV of the people in Sol, which is what matters to the people in Sol in terms of attachment to a government.

Nineteen years of wartime emergency powers versus 40+ years of prosperity is going to create powerful loyalty to one of those over the other.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 19, 2010, 10:38:12 pm
Do they want to win the hearts and minds of the UEF population, or try to subjugate the leadership of UEF to act as their puppets or possibly remove the UEF leading organs and replace them with GTVA command?
This doesn't sound that hard. Just tell them of the Shivan horrors and how Ubuntu has no idea what to do with them, then bomb the Elder Council to hell.

Taking out a government that's ruled Sol in peace and prosperity for longer than the GTA even existed probably won't endear you to the populace, though.

How can it have ruled for that long? I thought it formed in the aftermath of the Luci's cataclysmic entry to the Sol system?

You're thinking of the GTVA. The GTA formed 19 years before FS1 when intersystem starflight was discovered.

Quote
Which makes the GTA (which was formed at around that time) just as long standing.

After above post, this should be clearer: the GTA ruled Sol for 19 years, the Federation has been in power for 40+ (if I recall my history right.)

Well, I always assumed the GTA had continuance as the Terran part of the GTVA, and the PVE folded into the fleet structure and as an equal partner in the alliance (but still, loosely, as an autonomous empire)

We're talking from the POV of the people in Sol, which is what matters to the people in Sol in terms of attachment to a government.

Nineteen years of wartime emergency powers versus 40+ years of prosperity is going to create powerful loyalty to one of those over the other.

Ah yes, I was just dealing in hard facts there, to make sure that I hadn't got things wrong. I know that the silly Sol-ers will have their own (incorrect, naturally) assessment. Comes from having a bad government. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 19, 2010, 10:45:15 pm
Is the GTVA the answer to the Shivans? Remember in the background story one of the reasons for the GTVA's problems post-Capella is that before the second war the GTVA seemed to be keep the people safe from the Shivans... until they showed up with 80 jugs and blew up up Capella. What's more, since then the GTVA has been an economic mess, its two members in a deteriorating relationship and sure, its fleet has improved but is it enough to face down the Shivans? It's all the background materials guys, so what is the GTVA's answer to the Shivans?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 19, 2010, 10:51:06 pm
Is the GTVA the answer to the Shivans? Remember in the background story one of the reasons for the GTVA's problems post-Capella is that before the second war the GTVA seemed to be keep the people safe from the Shivans... until they showed up with 80 jugs and blew up up Capella. What's more, since then the GTVA has been an economic mess, its two members in a deteriorating relationship and sure, its fleet has improved but is it enough to face down the Shivans? It's all the background materials guys, so what is the GTVA's answer to the Shivans?

Their entire new fleet is BASED around destroying Shivans. It's not physically possible to defeat the Shivans as it stands, but the GTVA stands a better chance of holding down the fort (As in, they won't roll over in a day when the Shivans come knocking) until a solution is found. THAT makes them a more efficient and prepared government than the UEF can ever hope to be in my eyes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on August 19, 2010, 10:53:26 pm
Quote
Well, I always assumed the GTA had continuance as the Terran part of the GTVA, and the PVE folded into the fleet structure and as an equal partner in the alliance (but still, loosely, as an autonomous empire)


Actually it's the other way around. The GTA completely collapsed before the formation of the GTVA and so the terran systems were in total chaos.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 19, 2010, 11:23:13 pm
Their entire new fleet is BASED around destroying Shivans. It's not physically possible to defeat the Shivans as it stands, but the GTVA stands a better chance of holding down the fort (As in, they won't roll over in a day when the Shivans come knocking) until a solution is found. THAT makes them a more efficient and prepared government than the UEF can ever hope to be in my eyes.
You say "ever hope to be." Is there a reason why the UEF cannot collobrate in peacetime with the GTVA to build an anti-Shivan fleet?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 19, 2010, 11:37:05 pm
Quote
Well, I always assumed the GTA had continuance as the Terran part of the GTVA, and the PVE folded into the fleet structure and as an equal partner in the alliance (but still, loosely, as an autonomous empire)


Actually it's the other way around. The GTA completely collapsed before the formation of the GTVA and so the terran systems were in total chaos.
Not total chaos. The GTA disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 19, 2010, 11:51:54 pm
There really isn't a reason why the GTVA and UEF can't build warships together, except the UEF has deep cultural issues about building the sort of warfleets necessary to repel Shivan incursions.  They're very much a peaceful, isolationist society that wishes we could all just get along, except we can't because the Shivans could show up at any minute with a new ship of mass destruction bent on exterminating the Terrans and Vasudans.  The UEF could be described as a utopian society and have the name fit, except the UEF happens to exist in an imperfect galaxy, and I think the UEF wouldn't last five minutes if they opened themselves up to the outside galaxy.

The way I see it, and a reason why I have issues with Noemi being told by Ken to wipe out the GTVA is the GTVA is a monster of the Shivans' own creation.  The Shivans glassed Vasuda Prime, nearly destroyed Earth, and caused untold destruction in T-V space during the Great War.  Then, during the Second Shivan Incursion, the Shivans destroy an entire star system by causing (a) star(s) to go supernova with a fleet of eighty six-kilometer-long juggernauts each capable of wiping out a small fleet with one BFRed, and they each have four of those.  Noemi also mentions about how the Tevs have lost something important during their encounters with the Shivans.  Every time the Shivans have shown up, they've wreaked massive death and destruction upon the Terrans and Vasudans, so the Terrans becoming hard-ass bastards focused on survival at any cost by any means is unsurprising, to say the least, and to the best of my knowledge the Shivans just want to wipe out what they've created with no sign of remorse.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 12:37:37 am
There really isn't a reason why the GTVA and UEF can't build warships together, except the UEF has deep cultural issues about building the sort of warfleets necessary to repel Shivan incursions.  They're very much a peaceful,

Peaceful, yes, but...

Quote
isolationist society

If you read up on their history and ideology (or pay attention to some of the dialogue in WiH), they're actually very much about going out there and Doing Stuff. 'Kill stuff' is possibly not on their Top Ten Hobbies list, but Make Stuff and Find Stuff and Invent Stuff and Explore Stuff all are.

It's an open question as to what the UEF would do given interstellar travel.

Awesome discussion though.  :yes: Just tossing in factoids to keep things turning, I'd never ruin this by taking sides.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on August 20, 2010, 12:56:19 am
Quote
There really isn't a reason why the GTVA and UEF can't build warships together, except the UEF has deep cultural issues about building the sort of warfleets necessary to repel Shivan incursions.  They're very much a peaceful, isolationist society that wishes we could all just get along, except we can't because the Shivans could show up at any minute with a new ship of mass destruction bent on exterminating the Terrans and Vasudans.  The UEF could be described as a utopian society and have the name fit, except the UEF happens to exist in an imperfect galaxy, and I think the UEF wouldn't last five minutes if they opened themselves up to the outside galaxy.


On the flipside what caused those incursions were largescale interstellar wars via subspace. The UEF's pacifism might actually prevent a third incursion.

Quote
Not total chaos. The GTA disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs.

Anytime you remove a central authority from an area like that the results are never pretty. Somalia is a good example of that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 20, 2010, 01:06:22 am
'Kill stuff' is possibly not on their Top Ten Hobbies list, but Make Stuff and Find Stuff and Invent Stuff and Explore Stuff all are.
The Human Way of Doing Stuff. Only without the 'use all of this to make Stuff that can Kill Stuff' (also part of the Human Way of Doing Stuff), which, IMO, is why the UEF failed to pass the Species Survival in a Hostile Universe test.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 20, 2010, 01:26:44 am
Yep.  Chances are there are more races in the galaxy than the Shivans, Vasudans, and Terrans, and not all of those may be friendly, and the UEF may be force to wage a large-scale interstellar war using subspace against a hostile race through no fault of their own, and I don't think the Shivans will attack only the antagonists.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 20, 2010, 01:50:26 am
They're very much a peaceful, isolationist society that wishes we could all just get along, except we can't because the Shivans could show up at any minute with a new ship of mass destruction bent on exterminating the Terrans and Vasudans.  The UEF could be described as a utopian society and have the name fit, except the UEF happens to exist in an imperfect galaxy, and I think the UEF wouldn't last five minutes if they opened themselves up to the outside galaxy.
Given the empricial evidence I'm not sure if UEF is that isolationist. Their fleet is small, but that's because they've been trapped in their own system with a mostly unified politicial system. A fleet of frigates would have been enough for peacekeeping and fighting terrorists, yet they built the Solaris destroyers anyways. The point is that they have more military than they actually need. It's normal for militaries to scale down without an active threat, and with no active subspace nodes and no knowledge of Knossos devices, it's a different story from the GTVA, who knew the Shivans can jump in at any time.  Granted, the UEF is a creature of its situation, but it's not nessarsily isolationist or pacifist. You can't expect them to have a military buildup like the GTVA without any subspace nodes or knowledge that you can "fix" subspace nodes. Like the General said, how they'd adapt to rejoining the interstellar community is an open question.


The problem with the BP GTVA is that they're a society teetering on the edge - their economy recovery from Capella has been slow, their relationship with their closest ally is enstranged (instead of profiting from trade and growth), their growth is limited. A society needs a healthy economy to support a large, well equipped military, otherwise the debt gets overwhelming, the financial system falls apart, society becomes unstable - much of what happened to the old GTA in Sol. They're kept things together by investing in Centeur station, but where do they go from there?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrashMan on August 20, 2010, 01:54:18 am
Quote
SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.
Quote from: Wikipedia
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy  for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious  for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...

Check the definition on TV TROPES.

Mary Sue is not purely about power - but how other characters react around the Sue.
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.


Quote
Trashman is, like many do, simply applying the label to something he doesn't like without regard to the term's meaning.

Nevermind that FS is more or less built around the concept of a wish-fulfilment story being a first-person combat flight sim with an AFGNCAAP protagonist and therefore a Mary Sue is the best form of character to represent the player.

Bollocks.
FS 1 and 2 is not about Alpha1. You're not a super-special snowlake. Just a talented pilot.
The difference is so obvious I shouldn't even have to write this...

You fail again NGTM-1R
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on August 20, 2010, 02:00:55 am
Isn't Ubuntu mainly empirical? I haven't read the dossiers recently, but I kind of recall that Ubuntu does what works first and is pacifistic only as a corollary to that. Assuming it works as advertised then, I'd bet on the Federation being as prepared for the Shivans as possible given the circumstances and information they had.

As the GTVA, I'd see Ubuntu as a sure way to save the economy, and therefore the quickest path to bigger ships with bigger beams. I would also be confident that since Ubuntu does what works by definition, it will not result in the GTVA rolling over and dying in the face of the Shivan threat. So yeah, I'm tired and I need to reread the docs on Ubuntu.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on August 20, 2010, 02:07:15 am
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.
Well, it's not like people that can talk to extradimensional aliens are a dime a dozen...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 20, 2010, 02:27:39 am
Isn't that a bit of a Chosen Mary Sue thing right there?

Ypoknons:  At the end of FS1, after you defeat the Lucifer, end up in Sol, and the node collapses, Alpha 1 mentions being told the Shivans will return and that they can rebuild the destroyed node.  If I were the Sol government, I'd be worrying about the GTA outside Sol being destroyed, the Shivans showing up in Sol with another Lucifer or three, and finishing what they started.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 02:50:33 am
Isn't that a bit of a Chosen Mary Sue thing right there?

le sigh

The trope has clearly started being overapplied when characters like Luke Skywalker or Frodo start being labeled 'Mary Sues'.

Neither Laporte nor Bei qualify.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 20, 2010, 02:58:02 am
Ypoknons:  At the end of FS1, after you defeat the Lucifer, end up in Sol, and the node collapses, Alpha 1 mentions being told the Shivans will return and that they can rebuild the destroyed node.  If I were the Sol government, I'd be worrying about the GTA outside Sol being destroyed, the Shivans showing up in Sol with another Lucifer or three, and finishing what they started.
That's a good point, and I had forgotten. That might very well have the been the reason why the Solaris project got through, in fact.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 20, 2010, 04:00:14 am
That monologue at the end of FS1 isn't a good argument.
As far as we know it might only have been Alpha 1 hearing voices and noone else believing him.

And even if the majority of Sol believed that at first, the Shivans didn't come for decade after decade. So surely more and more people would have started to think that the Shivans either can't rebuild jumpnodes or simply aren't interrested in Humanity anymore, because of their isolation.
They did recover the Ancient materials that suggested the Shivans to attack only those that attacked other races after all.

On top of that a Karuna can easily defeat a beamless Demon. Of course that's not enough to crack a Lucifer, but maybe they build the Solarises for exactly that reason.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 20, 2010, 05:26:31 am
I am confused.

There seems to be a widely agreed consensus about the fact that Shivans, should they really want to destroy humanity, could not be stopped.

Yet, at the same time people propose that since GTVA's fleet could (speculatively) deter the Shivans for a longer period of time, they are the preferable faction of the two.

However, consider this: Based on FS1 monologues, what kind of factions do the Shivans go after?

Quote from: Ancients Monologues
Ours was a proud people, and always the strongest. For thousands of years our empire expanded. For so long we could imagine ourselves alone in the universe. For so long never did we encounter advanced life. And we travelled faster and further, spreading in our galaxy and before long we could see the day when our reachable systems would have been exploited. And then there would be nowhere else to go.

And we discovered subspace. It gave us our galaxy and it gave us the universe. And we saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it. In months the extermination of billions of years of evolution on a similar but slower path. With subspace, our empire would surely know no boundaries.

...

When the destroyers came for us, we attacked. Never had we been defeated. They are like the others. Strange, hideous, resisting, fighting. Only these were not like the others. They did not die.

We made our first retreat. We could forego one system. We left it to the destroyers and went elsewhere. But they followed, they hunted us. They followed us when we retreated, discovered where we lived.

For a long time, we did not know why they chased us. They were no ordinary enemy. They did not seek our territory, our technology, our resources.

Now we know our crime was sin.

...

And we retreated to our home system. Abandoned our empire. We believed at home we would be safe. For they are not a terrestrial species.

We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers. But our planet is our home. And yet still they came. And our world is gone.

...

There are a few of us left. We know we will soon be gone. And so we can see our fate as others will see it. There will be little legacy. No great expressions of what we once were. Our technology, our achievements if ever they are seen again will spawn none of the awe that filled our conquests.

We know our fate. We are being eliminated. When we traveled subspace, the cosmic destroyers took note.

When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom. And so the destroyers came for us.

...

There is little left for us. Little time. But much irony.

We did discover they are not invulnerable. The destroyers that darkened our skies like a plague can be harmed. But we have no way to deliver the hurt.

We have the knowledge but not the means. And so this is our legacy. In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked.

Quote from: Campaign End
I know why the Ancient ones were destroyed and I know what they knew. I know that if not for the Shivans, they would have perished long before. Without the Shivans, someone would have discovered the Ancients in their infancy, and eliminated them, just surely as they eliminated countless billions of others.

I believe it is only the destroyers who are killed. The Shivans are the great destroyers but they are also the great preservers. That is why when we moved into space there was no one powerful enough to kill us. Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come.

In the Vasudan war, we learned how to adapt, we learned how to study our enemy, we learned how to overcome, we learned how to survive. And so we did.

All the jump points from Earth are gone. But the Shivans can rebuild them. I'm told we can expect them again, but not in my lifetime. Such is liberation.

Assuming that this information is accurate, the Shivans attacked the Ancients because of their aggressive, expansionist nature; faction that prevents the evolution of other factions. Alternative interpretation is rampant subspace usage, but I find that somewhat unlikely.

Does Ubuntu and by extension UEF fulfill that description?


Now consider which faction has better chances of survival: One that attracts the attention of unstoppable destroyers yet has the military capacity to deter them for a given period of time before total collapse, or one that doesn't have quite as much military capacity and under attack would crumble faster, but doesn't attract the attention of the Shivans?

Of course there's the possibility that the Shivans are just doing it for the lulz but I doubt it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2010, 05:37:45 am
Quote
Not total chaos. The GTA disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs.
Anytime you remove a central authority from an area like that the results are never pretty. Somalia is a good example of that.
Yes. But canonically that's not what happened.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on August 20, 2010, 07:03:45 am
Quote
Quote
Trashman is, like many do, simply applying the label to something he doesn't like without regard to the term's meaning.

Nevermind that FS is more or less built around the concept of a wish-fulfilment story being a first-person combat flight sim with an AFGNCAAP protagonist and therefore a Mary Sue is the best form of character to represent the player.

Bollocks.
FS 1 and 2 is not about Alpha1. You're not a super-special snowlake. Just a talented pilot.
The difference is so obvious I shouldn't even have to write this...

You fail again NGTM-1R
You fail at reading comprehension Trashman. NGTM-1R didn't say that Alpha one Is a mary sue. But that a mary sue is the best form of character to represent the player in this genre.

Quote
SOTS also didn't have Chosen Mary Sues and prophetic visions.
Quote from: Wikipedia
A Mary Sue (sometimes just Sue), in fanfiction, is a fictional character with overly idealized and hackneyed mannerisms, lacking noteworthy flaws, and primarily functioning as a wish-fulfillment fantasy  for the author or reader. Perhaps the single underlying feature of all characters described as "Mary Sues" is that they are too ostentatious  for the audience's taste, or that the author seems to favor the character too highly. The author may seem to push how exceptional and wonderful the "Mary Sue" character is on his or her audience, sometimes leading the audience to dislike or even resent the character fairly quickly; such a character could be described as an "author's pet".
I don't really feel Bei or Laporte fall in that catagory...

Check the definition on TV TROPES.

Mary Sue is not purely about power - but how other characters react around the Sue.
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue Read the article again, please do tell how many of these points even apply to Laporte. Cause I can't find much.
I'm getting the impression though, that trying to argue with you is pretty much futile on this point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2010, 09:00:32 am
Check the definition on TV TROPES.

Quote
The prototypical Mary Sue is an original female character in a fanfic who obviously serves as an idealized version of the author mainly for the purpose of Wish Fulfillment. She's exotically beautiful, often having an unusual hair or eye color, and has a similarly cool and exotic name. She's exceptionally talented in an implausibly wide variety of areas, and may possess skills that are rare or nonexistent in the canon setting. She also lacks any realistic, or at least story-relevant, character flaws — either that or her "flaws" are obviously meant to be endearing.

Well, female bit that sure as hell ain't Bei. Neither of them are idealized wish-fulfillment versions of Darius as far as you or I know. And Noemi is a pyschopath and thus hardly somebody anyone here wants to be (I would hope). The names are not exotic for the setting. The character's talent is specifically tied to the players so I suppose if you've decided the REAL Bei/Laporte is actually controlled by QD that could be an argument (but that's a stupid decision) and the wide variety of areas isn't even touched on. They do both talk to things that aren't there for most people and the things talk back too, but this is one of a large number of possible qualifiers, and the BP team has stated specifically that they are not unique. The lack of flaws argument could be made about Bei, but on the other hand it most certainly cannot be made about Noemi.

Considering the lack of physical description, it's nearly impossible to apply traditional Mary Sue labels to either of them.

So as it stands you've managed to make a more successful, slightly, argument for Bei being a Mary Sue then for Noemi. You hit two points successfully out of eleven. 2/11. 18%. Your argument ain't doing well here Trash.

Black Hole Sue: I direct you to another trope called Little Hero Big War.

Of individual Sue Types TVTropes lists, if you wish to claim that they are God Mode Sue, this is clearly wrong for Laporte, who can actually be shot out of her fighter at one point, a first for a FreeSpace Campaign in that the player themselves can completely fail of their own accord and continue. Bei one could make that argument, but then, so could you for Alpha 1. They do both fail on occasion but never through any fault of their own, which is classic Sue symptoms. If Bei is a Sue, all player characters are Sues, so he's in good company.

Can't be Purity Sue in a combat flight sim. Let's move on.

Mary Tzu: You're not commanding anybody. I suppose you could say the player gets in on this if they've played the mission before what with their apparently divinely inspired foreknowledge. But that's the player, not the character.

Jerk Sue: Neither of these characters is a jerk. Granted Laporte is mentally unbalanced but she's not a jerk.

Possession Sue: Not possible in the setting. Unless you're gonna claim that Bei is Snipes. Which The_E has already denied most vigorously since the team says Snipes is dead.

Can't be a Copycat Sue either. Unless all player characters are.

Relationship Sue: Uh. Well, no. This usually refers to a canonical character and that didn't and can't happen.

Anti Sue: Well, I guess if you really suck at playing the game, but again that's the player and not the character.

Villian Sue: What, are you a Shivan?

Fixer Sue: references to canonical works preclude.

Thirty Sue Pileup: lol

Mary Sue is not purely about power - but how other characters react around the Sue.
Pretty much the whole universe revolves around Bei and even moreso Laporte, especially since we keep getting reminded how important and "speshul" they are.
[/quote

Bollocks.
FS 1 and 2 is not about Alpha1. You're not a super-special snowlake. Just a talented pilot.
The difference is so obvious I shouldn't even have to write this...

You fail again NGTM-1R

Only in your head, Trash. Only in your head.

So let me ask you this. Do you in fact understand the terms you throw around so casually? Are you a writer? Are you a fandom writer? Do you deal with this terminology day in and day out? I am, I am, and I do. I have some conception of what I'm actually talking about here because I need to. From whence comes your expertise on the subject?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 20, 2010, 09:13:14 am
Could we stop this mary sue stuff and get back to war in heaven please?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 20, 2010, 09:21:27 am
Second that request, over.

Trash/NGTM-1R, whilst I have my own views on the subject of discussion between the two of you, I'd like to politely ask that you take the next phases of your discussion to PMs.


Herra: I agree with your point there, although I don't think that it's apparent to the GTVA as of yet (should it be? Perhaps the Ancient monologues were never fully studied?). In their minds, I'd guess that it's a question of "When the Shivans return," rather then "Why do they keep f*cking coming back and how do we motherf*cking stop them?"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2010, 09:49:04 am
However, consider this: Based on FS1 monologues, what kind of factions do the Shivans go after?

Multiple readings are possible. For example, meditate upon this line:

Quote
We know when we entered subspace we were trespassers.

The Ancients monologue speaks of a specific crime, a specific sin. "Now we know our crime was sin."

It speaks of such sins after their imperialist expansionist tendancies, so it is at best an extremely tortured construction that they were referring to such things. Instead, the closest that would come to an identification of sin is the trepassing.

Subspace is also mentioned in more than one of the monologues, three of them in fact, but imperialism only one.


And also, this one:

Quote
In the Vasudan war, we learned how to adapt, we learned how to study our enemy, we learned how to overcome, we learned how to survive. And so we did.

Alpha 1 lays it out. Humanity survived, the Vasudans survived, because they were strong, because they were prepared and capable of fighting for it.


And both these ignore the vital point: It doesn't matter whether you're imperialist or not. It matters only that you be curious. The Shivans do not arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break their rules. They did not for the Ancients and they did not for FS2. They are here, now, and they await the unwary as they awaited Bosch's effort to find them. Even harmless exploration could bring down the wrath of the Shivans upon you. Unless you're posisting that Ubuntu is so insular it will never even explore beyond known space, some day they will meet the Shivans once more. And they will not be ready for it, they will not be able to buy they few days necessary to throw a pile of Meson bombs down the node and render themselves safe again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrashMan on August 20, 2010, 10:35:35 am
Isn't that a bit of a Chosen Mary Sue thing right there?

le sigh

The trope has clearly started being overapplied when characters like Luke Skywalker or Frodo start being labeled 'Mary Sues'.

Neither Laporte nor Bei qualify.

Who said that that Frodo or Luke are Sues?
Also, weather Laporte or Bei qualify is very much debatable. I say they do.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrashMan on August 20, 2010, 10:45:33 am
*SNIP*

I see you quoted only PART of the definition..the one that suits you best. The other is nicely ignored.


Quote
Only in your head, Trash. Only in your head.

So let me ask you this. Do you in fact understand the terms you throw around so casually? Are you a writer? Are you a fandom writer? Do you deal with this terminology day in and day out? I am, I am, and I do. I have some conception of what I'm actually talking about here because I need to. From whence comes your expertise on the subject?

Yes, I understand the terms perfectly. No, I do not write fanfics. I have written a few short stories for my own amusement - short and original stories. Never did finish them tough.
99% of fanfic writers are out of touch with reality IMHO, so you indentifying yourself as one doesn't do nothing to improve your case.

"I write fanfic, therefore I understand this stuff because I need to".. LOL. Don't make me laugh. As if writing automaticly implies knowledge and understanding. If there were the case, the term Mary Sue wouldnt' even exist.

And the very fact that you latch on to the "Mary Sue" definition and denounce it based on sex (Bei is male, not female), makes it clear you don't really grasp the term.


EDIT: (bit late reading that last request)... Fince, if you want to talk further, PM.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 20, 2010, 10:57:17 am
The thing is, we don't know exactly what the Ancients did, and we have very little information on both Shivan or Vishnan motives. Moreover, the Shivans might have 'gone rouge' after AoA, depending how you interpret the conversation and how it applies to our FS universe, and that adds another layer of complexity.

What is useful is to examine the organizations in the conflict in detail rather than use generalizations. But it's hard to evaluate both sides so early in the big picture of BP, frankly. I do have some sympathy for the UEF, I'd to examine Ubuntu society in more detail, but I doubt it's utopia.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 20, 2010, 11:30:03 am
How would the Shivans have "gone rogue" after AoA?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2010, 11:31:27 am
How would the Shivans have "gone rogue" after AoA?
Abandoned their place on the council. Giving the proverbial finger to the Vishnans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 20, 2010, 12:02:18 pm
Quote
[...]some day they will meet the Shivans once more. And they will not be ready for it, they will not be able to buy they few days necessary to throw a pile of Meson bombs down the node and render themselves safe again.
And why do you assume that the UEF would behave the same way in an open universe as they did in isolation?

It's like saying that if someone lives all alone on an island and doesn't lock the door, then inevitably he won't lock his door even after moving into a city with high crime rate....

The Shivans didn't show up in more than four decades, so they gradually reduced their military. But with the node open again, the Shivans are no longer a nightmare from the past, but again a very real threat. And considering the role of the Elders I doubt they could talk the Jovians and Marsians out of building up their military in case of a return of the Shivans even if they wanted to. The Earthers maybe, the other two... I very much doubt it.

Just becasue they try and try to negociate with the GTVA doesn't mean they'll do the same with the Shivans. They know very well that the old GTA and PVN both tried and failed to even speak with the Shivans. And I don't think they'd put their faith in ETAK plans either, considering what happened to Bosh. That is, if the GTVA was sloppy enough in their coverup for the UEF to ever learn about that matter.

Quote
and render themselves safe again.
Didn't you just say that the Shivans will inevitably return some day? In that case there is no "safe" in your definition, just a "not in open combat at the moment".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 20, 2010, 12:05:53 pm
Just becasue they try and try to negociate with the GTVA doesn't mean they'll do the same with the Shivans. They know very well that the old GTA and PVN both tried and failed to even speak with the Shivans. And I don't think they'd put their faith in ETAK plans either, considering what happened to Bosh. That is, if the GTVA was sloppy enough in their coverup for the UEF to ever learn about that matter.

Play Mission 11 again, and look at the techroom afterwards.....

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2010, 12:07:23 pm
Pretty nice gift.

:shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2010, 12:18:43 pm
And why do you assume that the UEF would behave the same way in an open universe as they did in isolation?

Why do you assume they won't? The military was not neglected because they didn't need it. If they really thought they didn't need a military we wouldn't have a WiH at all. The UEF has multiple destroyers and a swarm of frigates large enough to count as a serious force.

The military was neglected because by its existence it goes against Ubuntu's ideals. The lack of an existing threat compounds the problem, but let's be honest here: for the size of the resources available to them, the UEF has a very respectable force. It's simply also a very poorly designed force to fight the Shivans. Since the Shivans were the only reasonable threat the UEF military could have been designed to fight, this does not say good things about their tactical and strategic thought or the ability of the UEF as a society to produce the kind of people needed to fight such a war. They haven't made nearly the same scale of technical innovation the GTVA has in longer period of time then the GTVA did; no beam cannon, no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles.

The evidence that Ubuntu will keep pace enough to mount a credible defense just isn't there.

Didn't you just say that the Shivans will inevitably return some day? In that case there is no "safe" in your definition, just a "not in open combat at the moment".

True. But there is temporary safety; successfully defending yourself and shutting entry points. Eventually you might run out of room, but maybe not. It seems unlikely that known space is completely ringed with Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 20, 2010, 12:49:49 pm
I think the UEF could cut it in a war with the Shivans, however it all depends on if they want to devote Sol to being the arsenal of survival for Terrans and Vasudans.  They have the industry, economy, and R&D capability, however it is unclear if they are willing to actually utilize those resources in the capacity and quantity needed for a total war of survival.  The naivete of the Elders about pressing for a diplomatic solution without having the means to force the GTVA to the bargaining table speaks poorly for their ability to ensure the survival of Sol against a foe who gives no quarter and no mercy, such as the Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 12:53:08 pm
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2010, 12:55:58 pm
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.

I was more specifically singling out their shipboard main batteries. :P I'm not saying they're obselete; I'm saying they're low-technology solutions. You run out of those a lot faster.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 12:59:55 pm
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.

I was more specifically singling out their shipboard main batteries. :P I'm not saying they're obselete; I'm saying they're low-technology solutions. You run out of those a lot faster.

Yeah, with the exception of their CIWS the UEF warship guns definitely underperform their GTVA counterparts.

That said...they can do things the GTVA weapons can't. They're much better at knocking out turrets and subsystems from range, for one. Makes me curious as to how UEF ships would perform versus Shivans; somebody should FRED up a mission.

Speculating about performance vs. the Shivans is going to be difficult simply because the Shivans are so unpredictable, both in terms of their tactics and their technological development. Who knows what they'll be shooting at us if they show up again?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on August 20, 2010, 01:15:45 pm
In addition to the subsystem-sniping capships, the UEF also has some pretty tough fighters, bombers, and frigates to carry them. Shivans already have trouble with GTVA fighters.

However, I would like to see how GTVA tactics and hardware from WiH perform against Shivans. SSMs, Maxim strikes, and popup Trebuchet strikes are really cool; and I've never seen them used explicitly before now. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 20, 2010, 01:22:18 pm
Quote
no Kayser, many of their weapons are almost retrograde in terms of sophistication with their reliance on projectiles

The Rapier performs as well as the Kayser. Weapons like the Sidhe and UX Accelerator arguably outstrip it. And it's hard to call those projectile weapons obsolete when so many of them (UX Accelerator and Redeemer, for instance) are highly sophisticated antimatter-cored weapons.

I was more specifically singling out their shipboard main batteries. :P I'm not saying they're obselete; I'm saying they're low-technology solutions. You run out of those a lot faster.
I'm reminded of Stargate here: "Our weapons may be primitive, but they are effective."  I'm pretty sure the UEF could make main batteries that outstrip the capabilities of GTVA beam cannons if they had the desire, and more importantly, the time.  A Solaris destroyer with a spinal high-caliber railgun meant for anti-destroyer combat would be simply frightening with the range and damage potential of that weapon, especially backed up by the potent on-board CIWS to deter fighters and bombers.  Sir Isaac Newton is the deadliest son of a ***** in space after all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 20, 2010, 01:32:27 pm
Hey, if low-tech works, sticking to low tech makes sense.
Less likely for **** to mess up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2010, 01:36:36 pm
In addition to the subsystem-sniping capships, the UEF also has some pretty tough fighters, bombers, and frigates to carry them. Shivans already have trouble with GTVA fighters.

You're forgetting the reason UEF fighters perform so well is because they're designed for all these things at the expense of staying power, where the GTVA went the other way to stand off endless waves of Shivan fightercraft. UEF fighter screens would most likely crumble under sustained pressure that the GTVA couldn't afford to apply but the Shivans can.

Hey, if low-tech works, sticking to low tech makes sense.

Yeah, but Battuta accidentally illustrated my point by pointing out the antimatter-based projectile applications. Once you've gotten there, you're more or less deadended. You can't make a fundementally better weapon.  Projectile-based technology is tapped out and would be very difficult to further improve upon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 01:40:00 pm
In addition to the subsystem-sniping capships, the UEF also has some pretty tough fighters, bombers, and frigates to carry them. Shivans already have trouble with GTVA fighters.

You're forgetting the reason UEF fighters perform so well is because they're designed for all these things at the expense of staying power, where the GTVA went the other way to stand off endless waves of Shivan fightercraft. UEF fighter screens would most likely crumble under sustained pressure that the GTVA couldn't afford to apply but the Shivans can.

Indeed. UEF ships have much shorter operational lifespans and fuel endurance. Plus they're not designed with intersystem drives in mind (yet).

Quote
Hey, if low-tech works, sticking to low tech makes sense.

Yeah, but Battuta accidentally illustrated my point by pointing out the antimatter-based projectile applications. Once you've gotten there, you're more or less deadended. You can't make a fundementally better weapon.  Projectile-based technology is tapped out and would be very difficult to further improve upon.
[/quote]

Well the Vishnans found a way.  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 20, 2010, 02:24:22 pm
Not at all. The GTVA pretty much build their newer ships the same way the Shivans did. Massively powerfull beams forward. Lots of cheap fighters. And only few high-class fighters. And that mass of cheap low-performance fighters was slaughtered by the UEF fighters. And it would be the same with Shivan fighters.

And who sais that the UEF weapons can't be improved? Maybe they only contain very, very small amounts of anti-matter and once the containment technologies are improved that amount could be increased a great deal, resulting in damage beyond even the blue beams. Or maybe not. There's not enough data (that I'm aware of anyway) to judge.
Besides it would be sensible to assume that there are different kinds of anti-matter, since there are different kinds of matter. Maybe using other "anti-elements" produces different effects on the target.
And even if the warhead can't be improved, the other parts of the torpedos can be.  To give some ideas: Faster, thougher, faster lock-on, fitted with an onboard computer that flys a zig-zag course to make it less likely the bomb is shot down, reduced size without sacrificing payload (less likely to be shot down and the ability to carry more of them) or maybe even stealth...

And projectile bases weapons can also be improved by increasing projectile speed, size and rate of fire. Or possibly the other way around, reducing the size of the weapon while retaining the damage output, enabling them to fit more of them into a ship.

Quote
They haven't made nearly the same scale of technical innovation the GTVA has in longer period of time then the GTVA did
The GTVA didn't really innovate that much. Beams are copied from the Shivans. Kaysers? Copy from Shivan technology. Balor? Basically a downscaled Kayser and thus another Shivan copy. FLAK? Now those they developed on their own, but so did the UEF, just a different kind of FLAK. Bombs and torpedoes? Just bigger, more advanced versions based on the same principal as the old FS1 era weapons.
The UEF on the other hands build their torpedoes and bombs on another principal and developed railguns - both fighter and capship based - without any Shivan "help".

And I think the UEF would do very well against the Shivans (unless they totally change fighting style from the FS2 era), because the UEF takes the advantages the GTVA has over the Shivans and brings them to a new level. The Shivans have far poorer point defense than the GTVA (except FS2 era destroyers) which makes the UEFs torpedos even more of a threat.
And Shivan ships tend to have "soft" turrets and the beams concentrated forward. That makes them vulnerable to the UEFs strength: disarming turrets from long range. Unless the Shivan beams have a considerbly longer range than the GTVA beams.
Quote
You're forgetting the reason UEF fighters perform so well is because they're designed for all these things at the expense of staying power where the GTVA went the other way to stand off endless waves of Shivan fightercraft.
What do you mean with staying power? And why should the UEF fighters be less capable of destroying massive numbers of Shivan fighters than their GTVA counterparts?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 20, 2010, 02:31:29 pm
Meson bombs bro.
Meson bombs.

UEF don't even know what they are as evidenced in The Blade Itself.
Also happens to be one of the better ways to stop Shivans from killing your ass, at least temporarily.

What do you mean with staying power? And why should the UEF fighters be less capable of destroying massive numbers of Shivan fighters than their GTVA counterparts?

Shorter staying power in that they weren't designed for extended periods of operation?
Less fuel/supplies carried onboard so they can't go on as long of tours without resupply (a UEF battlegroup probably wouldn't have lasted the events of AoA cause they don't have logistics ship designs like the Anemoi)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 20, 2010, 02:33:40 pm
The UEF fighters have lesser endurance than GTVA fighters, like Battuta said they're high maintenance and have low fuel reserves, plus they suffer a higher degree of relative wear and tear compared to their Tev counterparts.  The UEF builds lots of F-35's, and the Tevs crank out MiG's and Sukhois.  Who will fare better in the attrition warfare the Shivans fight?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 03:37:16 pm
The Generation 1 Threat Exigency Initiative ships on the GTVA side were simply designed to provide cheap, plentiful screen fighters against Shivan bomber attacks. The Kulas is emblematic of that approach, while the Aurora has so many capabilities as a utility ship it's not even funny (I'd love to complete the AI component of the FRED spells system and give Auroras some spells.)

The Generation 2 fighters are much higher-performance and are meant to eventually make up the meet of the next gen GTVA fleet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on August 20, 2010, 04:03:05 pm
Herra: I agree with your point there, although I don't think that it's apparent to the GTVA as of yet (should it be? Perhaps the Ancient monologues were never fully studied?). In their minds, I'd guess that it's a question of "When the Shivans return," rather then "Why do they keep f*cking coming back and how do we motherf*cking stop them?"

It's hard to say what the Ancient Monologues actually were. They could have been recorded pieces of Ancient history from the sources recovered during the Great War, or they could have been exclusively experienced by the player character - Alpha 1 of the Great War.

If the former is right, it's hard to understand why they would not have been extensively studied. On the other hand, if they were exclusively experienced by Alpha 1, GTVA would never have known them since Alpha 1 was stuck in Sol. This is, in my opinion reinforced by Alpha 1's campaign ending monologue which is spoken entirely in the first person.

Lacking this information, it is easy to understand why GTVA would rather prepare for the next Shivan onslaught than try to remove the Shivans' reason to come after humanity again. It's not a logically wrong conclusion, but one borne with insufficient information.

Quote from: NGTM1-R
The Ancients monologue speaks of a specific crime, a specific sin. "Now we know our crime was sin."

It speaks of such sins after their imperialist expansionist tendancies, so it is at best an extremely tortured construction that they were referring to such things. Instead, the closest that would come to an identification of sin is the trepassing.

Subspace is also mentioned in more than one of the monologues, three of them in fact, but imperialism only one.


It is, of course, a possibility that simply usage of subspace will attract the attention of Shivans. It is possible that subspace travel has prolems that are unknown to humans and Vasudans, but Shivans are aware of and try to prevent them the only way they can, or maybe the simplest.

In this interpretation, subspace nodes would be weak points in space-time structure and subspace travel through them would exacerbate the problem when the vortices would poke holes in it even further weakening it. This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

However, they do use nodes when it is convenient to them.

Or it could be a method to get someone to explode something big (like a Lucifer or a Meson bomb) inside a node in order to collapse it.

This however presents a new problem - if it is subspace travel that attracts Shivans' attention - why don't they simply go and collapse the nodes themselves?

Why the interest in glassing planets (prime example being Vasuda Prime) and the overall destructive nature (exploding a star in a system full of fleeing refugees)?


Of course, like I said earlier it's just possible that Shivans do it for the lulz. In that case, that would be their sole motive, making them truly impossible to negotiate with. However, I sincerely doubt it and think they have some underlying reason for their selection of targets, and it isn't just subspace travel.


Quote
Alpha 1 lays it out. Humanity survived, the Vasudans survived, because they were strong, because they were prepared and capable of fighting for it.

Indeed.

This invokes the question: Could they have survived, had the not been capable of working together to defeat their common enemy?


Quote
And both these ignore the vital point: It doesn't matter whether you're imperialist or not. It matters only that you be curious. The Shivans do not arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break their rules. They did not for the Ancients and they did not for FS2. They are here, now, and they await the unwary as they awaited Bosch's effort to find them. Even harmless exploration could bring down the wrath of the Shivans upon you. Unless you're posisting that Ubuntu is so insular it will never even explore beyond known space, some day they will meet the Shivans once more. And they will not be ready for it, they will not be able to buy they few days necessary to throw a pile of Meson bombs down the node and render themselves safe again.

I don't see why curiosity alone would cause Shivans to annihilate your species. Unless they indeed pretty much just do it because they can.

Besides, how do you know Shivans don't arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break the rules? In Blue Planet continuity there is already two confirmed cases of inter-dimensional travel - the 14th Battlegroup to the universe where Lucifer glassed Earth, and Sanctuary coming back to FreeSpace Proper universe (BP continuity, of course). So, given that in Blue Planet continuity interdimensional travel is possible, that sort of makes your argument less solid.

As far as being ready for Shivans goes - UEF and GTVA are pretty much on par on their level of ability to seriously deter Shivans should they desire to annihilate them. GTVA might survive for some time longer (mostly because they are spread wider and could slow Shivans with collapsing nodes) - but then, safety from Shivans by collapsing nodes is questionable at best, knowing Shivans' cited ability to rebuild nodes, and even before that, their appearance in Ross 128, likely through a node undetected to GTA observations.

If Shivans decided to destroy humanity and Vasudans, there would be no stopping them. They would find ways around stopgap measures like destroyed nodes and such.

If they do it for the lulz (or, in your words, just to punish for simple curiosity) all is lost, and I don't believe in the no-win scenario.

Therefore I prefer to think they have a reason for doing what they do, and that's either the Subspace Argument (subspace travel is dangerous and Shivans prevent it, thus saving the universe) or the Rulebreaker Argument (Shivans monitor activities of sentient space-faring species and nullify those that present significant enough threats to other space-faring species).

Maybe not the strongest argument for it, but hey, this is a fictional universe with no confirmed canon solution to the problem of Shivans' motives, so all interpretations of the few vague hints are equally valid as long.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 04:18:26 pm
I believe FreeSpace canon supplies a complete explanation of Shivan motives circa FS1, namely that they act to destroy species which are a threat to other species, and to incentivize cooperation between species (thus earning a reprieve.)

As of the end of FS1, that's canonically what the Shivans were: protectors of galactic diversity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 20, 2010, 04:20:12 pm
Besides, how do you know Shivans don't arrive from extradimensional unreachable homes to destroy those who break the rules?

Mainly because as I pointed out, the evidence is strongly against it. The Ancients speak of an offensive phase, of attacking a Shivan system and failing to take it and withdrawing. Bosch's recon of the nebula found Shivans already there, and Into The Lion's Den proves that they did not emerge into the nebula fully formed; they came from beyond it, where they have holdings in real space including the only fixed Shivan objects we've ever seen.

If the Shivans can simpy arrive from another dimension then the fact they have always emerged before the leading edge of their opponent's expansion seems both counterproductive to them and unlikely at best.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 20, 2010, 07:52:47 pm
Quote
This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

I forget the exact quote, but somewhere early in the FS2 campaign, Petrarch says in one of the CBs, "We know... [don't remember this part] Shivans are just as dependent on nodes as we are."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 20, 2010, 08:12:11 pm
Quote
This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

I forget the exact quote, but somewhere early in the FS2 campaign, Petrarch says in one of the CBs, "We know... [don't remember this part] Shivans are just as dependent on nodes as we are."

I think it's late in the campaign, actually, and he says that the Shivans make use of unstable or ephemeral nodes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on August 20, 2010, 08:14:56 pm
The Shivans, I think, can traverse more unstable nodes, which don't appear on the nodemap because the GTVA doesn't bother documenting nodes they can't use.

This is how the Lucifer continuously outmaneuvered everyone in FS1.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dr. Pwnguin on August 20, 2010, 10:40:50 pm
I think a more important question is why Sol was left alone during the second Shivan Incursion? If the Shivans can actually go with Sub-Space travel without the use of a node then it stands to reason that the UEF somehow is not on their Agenda.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 21, 2010, 12:33:56 am
I think a more important question is why Sol was left alone during the second Shivan Incursion? If the Shivans can actually go with Sub-Space travel without the use of a node then it stands to reason that the UEF somehow is not on their Agenda.

The Shivans came from the nebula, they never expressed any desire to go further than Capella.
The rest of the GTVA wasn't on their agenda, even.

Sol is just about as special as Wolf 359 or Beta Cyngi in that regard.

Sorry, the Shivans didn't avoid Sol because of the UEF. They avoided most of Terran/Vasudan space for some other reason. Or rather, they were quite fixated on Capella...

Quote
This would further explain why Shivans themselves seem to not be dependant on nodes - possibly they can travel without them.

I forget the exact quote, but somewhere early in the FS2 campaign, Petrarch says in one of the CBs, "We know... [don't remember this part] Shivans are just as dependent on nodes as we are."

I think it's late in the campaign, actually, and he says that the Shivans make use of unstable or ephemeral nodes.

Its when they're discussing the meson bomb plan.
"The shivans may use unstable and uncharted jump nodes, but they're just as dependant on them as we are". (paraphrased, but that's what he says)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 21, 2010, 02:00:00 am
Not at all. The GTVA pretty much build their newer ships the same way the Shivans did. Massively powerfull beams forward.

Do you seriously think the GTVA would be so foolish as to rely only on beams that fire forward? Take a closer look at the weapons mounted on the Raynor, which was originally designed so that at least 50% of its overall firepower can be projected in almost any direction.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 21, 2010, 03:07:15 am
Yep, but the Chimera and the Bellerophon just don't have a single side beam, and the Titan only have a couple of slash beams. The Raynor is the exception in the new ship designs, along with the new Diomedes. It is made clear in the tech description that the GTVA expect a lot from their adaptation of the Shivans' shock jump tactics.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 21, 2010, 03:55:57 am
Yeah, that was as a result of Steele.

I think the GTVA may have to rethink its M.O. should the Shivans arrive again. The design of a ship such as the Deimos was probably the most practical design of the time period. As the GTVA were generally being shock-jumped by the Shivans, a ship such as the Deimos with its beams having a wide arc of fire and killzones to both sides would've been better suited to fend off Shivan jumps.

With their current beam placement, Terran ships would have to break formation immediately and face the threat if they were shock jumped. Assuming their maneuverability is high, this should be fairly attainable, however in practice I wouldn't be surprised if Terran ships weren't able to get a shot off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 21, 2010, 04:26:13 am
Those ships are made for aggressive manoeuvres, not defensive ones. The best defence is a good offence. You can't be shock jumped if you have already taken down the enemy ships.

Not that I really think this tactic is really viable, but that's definitely what was in GTVA's mind when they designed those ships. The biggest Shivan threat being juggernauts, shock jumps are the best way to take them out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 21, 2010, 04:39:24 am
Those Chimera and Bellerophon are meant to do those subspace jump attacks, which they do very well. But otherwise, they do left their broadside and rear defenseless to enemy capital ships (though they do have some AAA beams to swat light fighter assaults). But that is not all, since they also have the Diomedes which is just the exact opposite. It may lack the big guns, but it has the ability to engage enemies on its broadside. Of course we are not forgetting they still have their good old Deimos.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrashMan on August 21, 2010, 04:48:23 am
I think people read too much into the FS monologues. They are there for flare and atmosphere. Not some visions by Alpha 1.

Not to mention we never saw any ability of the shivans to create new nodes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 21, 2010, 04:54:16 am
... what does it have to do in this topic ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 21, 2010, 06:54:23 am
Those ships are made for aggressive manoeuvres, not defensive ones. The best defence is a good offence. You can't be shock jumped if you have already taken down the enemy ships.

Not that I really think this tactic is really viable, but that's definitely what was in GTVA's mind when they designed those ships. The biggest Shivan threat being juggernauts, shock jumps are the best way to take them out.
Cavalry, basically. Great when charging flanks, not so good in prolonged battle or if charged in their own flanks. Would be much more effective once the rapid jump technology is mass deployed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 21, 2010, 07:31:54 am
... what does it have to do in this topic ?

It was a few pages back.  He probably hit reply without checking the latest page.  I think we've all done that at least once.

That said, his post is still mostly his own brand of fanspec, so I'm not sure how relevant it would be even then.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 21, 2010, 12:19:20 pm
i personally think saying they were there just as part of the game package is less fanspec than saying they were visions or historical records.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 21, 2010, 12:34:26 pm
Quote
I believe FreeSpace canon supplies a complete explanation of Shivan motives circa FS1, namely that they act to destroy species which are a threat to other species, and to incentivize cooperation between species (thus earning a reprieve.)

As of the end of FS1, that's canonically what the Shivans were: protectors of galactic diversity.
But on the other hand, the Shivans continued to attack even after the GTA and PVN allied. They could have stopped right there and then, or shortly after the attack on Vasuda (The way the Terrans helped then is, in my opinion, the main reason why they formed the GTVA instead of splitting up after the last Shivan remnants were destroyed. That and the fear of another Shivan attack maybe.). But despite asuring the survival of both species, the Shivans didn't stop, but tried to take down Earth too. Now maybe they just wanted to make sure both species suffered the same fate and would have left after glassing Earth, but somehow I doubt that.

It's almost like those "hordes" from different fantasy settings, that can't stop of their own accord once the rampage is started. Only if they are defeated or attain total victory do they get themselfs under controll again.
Though FreeSpace 2 clearly discourages such a theory, since then the Shivans didn't rampage across TV space, but seems to be after some very specific goal(s) and "only" wiped out anything standing between them and it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 21, 2010, 12:53:29 pm
If they had stopped immediately, things would have gone back to the way they were at once. They had to force integration, not just peace.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 21, 2010, 02:07:11 pm
Hey, how many integrated missions are there in the game?

Just one. Good Luck. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 22, 2010, 02:57:33 am
Integrated? Like FS2's Clash of the Titans II-Apocalypse?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Tarond on August 22, 2010, 05:18:17 am
I have downloaded  yesterday " War in Heaven" and the new mediavps version as well as the AoA-updates. Unfortunately, the following error message comes after the Intro:
---------------------------
Error!
---------------------------
Could not load in FictionViewer-m!
<no module>! RtlDeactivateActivationContextUnsafeFast
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

[ This info is in the clipboard so you can paste it somewhere now ]


Use Ok to break into Debugger, Cancel to exit.

---------------------------
OK   Abbrechen   
---------------------------


If I on OK press I come to the mission briefing, however, can not accept there.

Have you some Idea's what I made wrong and how i can play War in Heaven?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 22, 2010, 05:19:33 am
Please set the resolution to 1024x768 or higher.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Burdokva on August 22, 2010, 05:36:23 am
I recently finished Blue Planet: AoA, the first campaign I've played since returning to FSII, and it was spectacular! War in Heaven looks even better, visual-wise, but I'd appreciate an honest answer on this - how does the campaign fare without voice-acting?

I have tired eyes and reading through a lot of text from the monitor is quite tiresome, even when there's a lot of VO. So I'm wondering if I should play it now and enjoy it as-is, even if i would strain me a little, or wait for something like AoA's Director Cut? 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 22, 2010, 05:42:30 am
I have tired eyes and reading through a lot of text from the monitor is quite tiresome, even when there's a lot of VO. So I'm wondering if I should play it now and enjoy it as-is, even if i would strain me a little, or wait for something like AoA's Director Cut? 

Be warned that War In Heaven uses a LOT of onscreen text. So it might be best to wait, however, we can't give any realistic estimate on when the VA process is complete.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Tarond on August 22, 2010, 06:24:33 am
Thank you for your quick reply.

My resolution is 1280X768.

I have change it to 1024X768 and get the same error + another:
Verify failure: Vbuf0 != NULL

<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 22, 2010, 06:26:56 am
Please post an fs2_open.log. Instructions on how to do this can be found here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.0).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on August 22, 2010, 07:28:44 am
playing through the campaign now... I can only say that it's top notch.
Excellent writing, excellent atmosphere, excellent gameplay.
kudos to you all

and to think that FS2 is 11 years old!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Tarond on August 22, 2010, 08:17:47 am
I hope it's the right one.


[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 22, 2010, 08:24:49 am
Code: [Select]
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 640x480 with 16-bit color...
This is a problem. Use 1024x768 at 32 bits of colour depth.

Code: [Select]
  OpenGL Renderer   : RADEON 9800 x86/MMX/3DNow!/SSE2
  OpenGL Version    : 1.5.4391 WinXP Release

This is a problem as well. WiH is not the gentlest of mods at the best of times, I would recommend deleting the bp2-adv-visuals.vp, as well as the mv_advanced.vp from the mediavps_3612 folder, since according to this:

Code: [Select]
Max texture size: 2048x2048
You can't use the 4096^2 resolution textures in the bp2 advanced vps anyway.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Veers on August 22, 2010, 09:17:00 am
Hi guys,

First off. Love Blue Planet: AoA. Its awesome, second. From what I understand about WiH, it will be just as good if not better.

Ive just been having problems getting it running on my own, and I followed the instructions a few times (Ive obviously missed something cause everyone else has done it fine.) And Im still lost.

Im running 3.6.12 Inferno, the 3.6.12 mediavps with launcher 5.5f . Everything works fine except for WiH.

Quote
---------------------------
Error!
---------------------------
Could not load in FictionViewer-m!
ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! SCP_DumpStack + 354 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! Error + 229 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! UI_WINDOW::set_mask_bmap + 85 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! fiction_viewer_init + 344 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! game_enter_state + 614 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! gameseq_set_state + 310 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! game_process_event + 1925 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! gameseq_process_events + 152 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! game_main + 782 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! WinMain + 330 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! __tmainCRTStartup + 358 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF.exe! WinMainCRTStartup + 15 bytes
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 99 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 54 bytes

[ This info is in the clipboard so you can paste it somewhere now ]


Use Ok to break into Debugger, Cancel to exit.

---------------------------
OK   Cancel   
---------------------------

And then it crashes. My apologies if Ive missed the answer somewhere here, Ive been browsing here for about 4 days. So my knowledge is still very limited in how the FSO works.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 22, 2010, 09:26:55 am
Yes, you missed the answer. It was in the post right above yours. Solution is to run the game at a resolution of 1024x768 or higher.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Veers on August 22, 2010, 09:46:30 am
Thanks for that, my apologies for completely missing it...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 22, 2010, 10:36:24 am
Integrated? Like FS2's Clash of the Titans II-Apocalypse?

Missions where they deploy a mixed Terran-Vasudan force, at the beginning of the mission, and had always planned to. Until Good Luck, we saw the Vasudans come in to take over from you a few times, or conduct escorts through your area of operations, but never actually operate jointly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 22, 2010, 06:33:44 pm
Admiral Steele wouldn't have been inspired by a mix of Admiral Villiers and Admiral Raymond Prescott from In Death Ground/The Shiva Option, would he have?

I realised that those two characters are who he reminds me of.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 22, 2010, 06:39:49 pm
Not consciously, at any rate.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 23, 2010, 04:18:15 am
After beating that mission, where you fly on UEFg Karuna, i'd like to say that was AWESOME... yep, there is still some.. issues with control, weapon system, i think... but i hope there will be more flying on this kind of ship. ))
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ariel on August 23, 2010, 01:48:52 pm
i got an error when i tried to open the campaign  the  a pic with the error

can someone help with this?

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 23, 2010, 01:55:03 pm
Please post an fs2_open.log. Instructions on how to do this can be found in the FSO FAQ.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: cransona on August 23, 2010, 09:14:23 pm
The Athens and the Malta!  Ha, I love it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IvKir on August 24, 2010, 04:03:07 am
i got an error when i tried to open the campaign  the  a pic with the error

can someone help with this?

Well.. i can be wrong, without .log file can't tell for sure, but i think you got troble with sound packs - check if they up to date and on their places.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Creeps on August 24, 2010, 04:53:50 pm
Hello, just registered. I have played Blue Planet AoA, also finished it and I think its awesome. Unfortunately I got some similar problem like Tarond had with War in heaven. The game crashes at the splash screen and I get this message:

ERROR: bp2-wep.tbm(line 805:
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [+Friendly Miss Factor:               1.4 1]
in weapon: SRed
.

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 262
Int3(): From g:\fso\fs2_rc3_export\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1155

According to the FS Open installer mediavps_3612 and the mod is fully updated. 3_6_12 inferno and the latest laucher are in the root folder. I also set the resolution to 1024x768 and deleted bp2-adv-visuals and mv_advanced but with no luck. I got the log in the attachments, hopefully it works.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 24, 2010, 05:07:40 pm
You need to use the 3.6.12 FINAL build. Get it here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70692.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Creeps on August 24, 2010, 05:22:11 pm
Oh I get it! I needed to use the standard build instead of the inferno one. Thank you very much it worked!  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 24, 2010, 05:24:21 pm
*Sigh*, No you NEED to use the INFERNO build. The build you used before was the 3.6.12 Release Candidate 3 build, War in Heaven specifically needs the 3.6.12 FINAL INFERNO build to work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Creeps on August 24, 2010, 05:39:38 pm
Yea, sorry im a noob at this. The standard one gave me some errors. I think I used INF sse2 before. Got it working with the final one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 25, 2010, 03:17:09 am
Just finished.

My... word...

Sweet, holy, darling, merciful, ****.

Good night, I think that was the best science fiction of this decade. ****, could be the best fiction of the decade.

If there was a Nobel prize for computer games, this would win all of them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on August 25, 2010, 10:11:25 am
My response as i played through the campaign would be inapropriate to post, but rest assured with began with disbelief and a "Fffuuu-" :nod:

I think very few would disagree if i said this campaign has set a new standard. Stuff like the multiple choice missions, checkpoint system and the reinforcement pool idea really takes it beyond being a new campaign, not to mention the depth of the storyline and strategy in the missions (like treb strikes) and movements of ships (how the hell did you pull off the corvette's twisting? :wtf: Is that some kind of SEXP thing?). Things like the three-gun banks on the Uriel (didn't quite sink in to begin with that that's a first IIRC), and the external gun mounts (including the deployment animation for the archer) really put icing on an already good cake!

You guys should really be proud of this; i recall Derelict being a campaign quite cherished by people, and i definately imagine BP is going to be alongside it soon enough!. Good luck with the second chapter! :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 25, 2010, 10:31:23 am
To paraphrase a game review I saw on some random game box a few years ago: "AoA raised the bar. WiH may transform the bar altogether."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 25, 2010, 10:41:46 am
"AoA raised the bar. WiH may transform the bar altogether."
QTF.

Stuff like the multiple choice missions, checkpoint system and the reinforcement pool idea really takes it beyond being a new campaign, not to mention the depth of the storyline and strategy in the missions (like treb strikes) and movements of ships (how the hell did you pull off the corvette's twisting?
The rolling capital ships and reinforcement pool was hot ****, loved it immensely. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 25, 2010, 09:20:31 pm
I understood the point system, no problem. The problem is that I had no idea which options to choose, since I had no idea how any of the combinations would work out tactically beyond - it's a bomber, gunship or capship. I think it could be a cool game dynamic if we were slowly eased into it, had several missions over which to try the system and see what different tacticial combinations do, and of course, if the choices made real tactical changes in the missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 25, 2010, 09:22:23 pm
Funny thing, I already had a good idea what to use, Uriel Gunship and Saturation Wing sounded too obvious for me. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 25, 2010, 09:25:55 pm
I wonder if there were any combos that didn't work in the mission, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 25, 2010, 09:46:19 pm
I wonder if there were any combos that didn't work in the mission, though.

If you went all interceptors and Uhlans you might have had trouble. But we do plan to do a mission that leverages that mechanic a little more fully in the future.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 25, 2010, 10:41:41 pm
it seemed rather obvious to me not to call in fighters to kill a capship.  with the extremely powerful defensive weapons in WiH, i figured saturation and gunships would be the most reliable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 25, 2010, 11:26:46 pm
So I'm the only one who called in the Durgas?


I'm not sure you understand that Durgas kick ass.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 26, 2010, 12:06:35 am
it seemed rather obvious to me not to call in fighters to kill a capship.  with the extremely powerful defensive weapons in WiH, i figured saturation and gunships would be the most reliable.

Pfft ... if that were the case, the UEF would never have built bombers in the first place.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 26, 2010, 12:34:04 am
So I'm the only one who called in the Durgas?

I'm not sure you understand that Durgas kick ass.

Someone else has mentioned it.

But you're forgetting the bit where nobody knows that, since this is the only place the Durgas are used and they're optional. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on August 26, 2010, 02:43:05 am
Just finished the campaign.  Words cannot express how badass this is.  It has full on CUTSCENES

I'm still confused about a few things though, primarily what is the motivation for the GTVA to be invading Sol in the first place?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on August 26, 2010, 02:44:56 am
I'm still confused about a few things though, primarily what is the motivation for the GTVA to be invading Sol in the first place?
If you read the tech room files available after beating AoA, it makes it much more apparent why.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 26, 2010, 02:49:28 am
or Admiral Bei's revised speach at the end of AoA director's cut
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 26, 2010, 09:08:36 am
Just finished the campaign.  Words cannot express how badass this is.  It has full on CUTSCENES

I'm still confused about a few things though, primarily what is the motivation for the GTVA to be invading Sol in the first place?

Glad you enjoyed it, mate.  :yes:

And yeah, the speech at the end of the AoA Director's Cut makes it a bit clearer, as does the techroom. I'm sure one of our local Tev die-hards will be happy to fill you in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 26, 2010, 09:40:41 am
I'm sure one of our local Tev die-hards will be happy to fill you in.
It's my bed time. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Tarond on August 26, 2010, 10:52:30 am
@The E

thank you for your advices.

Now WiH runs.
Sometimes it Crushed but the most time it works.

Where i can reset the max texture? I haven't found the 2048X2048 resolution I have to change?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 26, 2010, 10:56:17 am
Where i can reset the max texture? I haven't found the 2048X2048 resolution I have to change?

You can't. It's a limitation of your Graphics card. In order to change it, you need to buy a new one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Javito1986 on August 26, 2010, 05:49:53 pm
I finished it 5 minutes ago. Rushed over to let you know that... um... well, I think in Derenda Est you guys topped "DIVE DIVE DIVE!" and made the single most shocking moment in all of Freespace. I'm still reeling from that. WOW. Absolutely superb choice of music in that sequence too. I'm no stranger to that musical piece and that was one of the most amazing usages of it I've seen. It perfectly conveyed the stages of shock, menace, and finally desperation that pervaded that entire scene.

As a designer and writer I'm well aware of how hard it is to create material like this. Takes a long time, much dedication, much discipline and commitment, and the 'audience' doesn't always help by pressuring you to get the job done quickly because they're craving more. That being said.... PLEASE DEAR GOD DON'T MAKE ME WAIT LONG FOR PART II, I BEG YOU!!!!  :pimp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 27, 2010, 01:45:14 pm
So I'm the only one who called in the Durgas?


I'm not sure you understand that Durgas kick ass.

My Durgas exploded.  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 27, 2010, 01:51:18 pm
My combination of Uriel Gunships and Saturation strikers splashed their target in about five seconds and still lived. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 27, 2010, 02:39:50 pm
Durgas are ridiculously good, but they do need escort.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Javito1986 on August 27, 2010, 07:08:44 pm
Whoot! I just finished that mission with Xinny/Zero on insane. CHRIST AND ALLAH that was hard. Honestly, -that- is the hardest part of the game for me. I'm not sure why so many people complain that Darkest Hour and Delenda Est are hard, they have just the right balance. But this one... I don't know how you guys ever got through that fight enough times to properly beta test the mission :-p

It's SO much better if you draw them out and hit them one at a time, but even then everything has to go perfectly because the wingmen are just seconds from being on top of you. One trebuchet and it's goodnight, one 2 second burst of gunfire and you're dead. I actually made it through once before only to get killed by the second wing before Beta arrives. Lamely enough I died that time because Beta 3 crashed into me and knocked out the 15% hull I had left. I actually managed to evade ALL the gunfire and missiles (or at least keep my shields from dying on me) only to have my wingmate crash into me. LAME!

Anyway, I got through it a little while ago. You know what would be really great after you defeat the first group of fighters? A checkpoint  :D. Don't change the difficulty of the mission though! Fighting those guys SHOULDN'T be easy, it's fine as is. Sure it's INSANELY hard but it's not like you have to beat it in order to advance the campaign.

Quutamo was such a good choice though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 27, 2010, 07:11:31 pm
That fight isn't that hard, provided you don't storm in without a plan....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Javito1986 on August 27, 2010, 07:17:27 pm
It really really is. I didn't storm in at all either, I hung back and let them come to me and picked them off one at a time. Your wingmen aren't so good at dodging missiles though, and if even one goes down early (which happened about 75% of the time, usually on the first pass) then it's even more likely that the second wingman will also get picked off, leaving you on your own to fight 3 or more baddies. Even just two baddies vs the player is extremely difficult since the enemy AI does a great job of covering each other's tails and just one good hit is enough to put your Uhlan out of commission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 27, 2010, 11:27:43 pm
We wanted to do a challenging gameplay sequence using as few ships as we could. I think it turned out well. These guys are SOC operatives, they shouldn't be pushovers!

(Also I'm afraid we don't have enough variable slots left to put a checkpoint in there.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Javito1986 on August 28, 2010, 12:07:54 am
It does work very well. Note that I'm not complaining, I said not to change anything about it... but it's INSANELY HARD  :). Toughest part of the game for me by far. I still can't consistently get through it, it all depends on whether your wingmen survive or not.

That's okay, I like challenging space sims. I'm the guy who ground his way through X-Wing back in the day, before the difficulty nerf in the Win95 edition. Not to mention Procyon Insurgency... as a whole, neither Age of Aquarius or War in Heaven are anywhere near as difficult as, say, X-Wing but that one mission is high up there on the scale. At least you guys were nice enough not to make it mandatory to succeed in it  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 28, 2010, 01:15:09 am
Indeed. Failure is always an option. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: utops on August 29, 2010, 09:15:02 am
How UE officer was aware about Koth martyr deeds ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 29, 2010, 09:16:22 am
When the Ships from the 14th Battlegroup defected, they had copies of the GTVA's military-historical database.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 29, 2010, 09:21:35 am
Given that they got an entire logistics ship (GTL Solace) as well as an extremely important high-ranking officer (Bei), they probably got access to a lot more too (which more likely than not contributed to Severanti's conservative play-style).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 29, 2010, 09:22:51 am
How UE officer was aware about Koth martyr deeds ?


Indeed, as The_E said, the UEF has had eighteen months to review the GTVA's entire history, right up to very nearly the most classified level (since they have lots of great HUMINT). Being the UEF they've used this as much to print informational pamphlets to help their citizens understand the enemy as they have to gain any military advantage (though they've done that too).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on August 29, 2010, 02:31:59 pm
Ok, so having read the tech entries I'm still a little confuzzled.  The GTVA wants to wipe out or "forcibly reintegrate" with Sol because Sol is no being run by hippies who talk to non-dimensional whatsis who tell them what to do? 

I'll respond to that with a quote from the great film Midway:
Quote
Navy Intel:"Now, Admiral, I know it's thin..."

Admiral Nimitz:"Thin?  It's damn near invisible!"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 29, 2010, 02:36:55 pm
Ok, so having read the tech entries I'm still a little confuzzled.  The GTVA wants to wipe out or "forcibly reintegrate" with Sol because Sol is no being run by hippies who talk to non-dimensional whatsis who tell them what to do? 

I'll respond to that with a quote from the great film Midway:
Quote
Navy Intel:"Now, Admiral, I know it's thin..."

Admiral Nimitz:"Thin?  It's damn near invisible!"

They want to reintegrate Sol for several reasons (not the least of which is that Sol's economic power is about equal to the GTVA). They wish to integrate Sol because they fear that Ubuntu, if allowed to spread beyond Sol, would undermine the political fabric of the GTVA, which is heavily based on preparedness for a new Shivan assault.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on August 29, 2010, 03:42:37 pm
That's still a razor thin reason for killing millions.  I mean it's been established that the GTVA cannot match the shivans on a military level, there are simply too many of them and the technological gulf is too vast.  My opinion would be let them have their little hippie sit in as long as we get their shipyards and manpower.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 29, 2010, 03:46:04 pm
First of all, "killing millions" is not on the cards. Second, well.... you can't get Sol's economic power without getting the reason for that power as well; and as has been established, the GTVA fears that widespread adoption of Ubuntu would compromise the GTVA's warfighting capability.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 29, 2010, 03:59:35 pm
That's still a razor thin reason for killing millions.  I mean it's been established that the GTVA cannot match the shivans on a military level, there are simply too many of them and the technological gulf is too vast.  My opinion would be let them have their little hippie sit in as long as we get their shipyards and manpower.

The GTVA believes that if the Ubuntu government is not unseated the GTVA will collapse in the face of Ubuntu's viral spread. It's an us-or-them situation for them.

The GTVA does believe that it can meet the Shivan threat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 29, 2010, 05:02:54 pm
Obvious solution: shut down the portal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 29, 2010, 05:08:44 pm
Obvious problem: The promise of eventual reunion with Sol was a big factor in allowing the GTVA survive; It is still very much in deep economic and social trouble. They need Earth to continue on, if they would shut down the gate, you'd probably get a lot of resentment against the GTVA, leading to its eventual collapse. This, in the GTVA's mind, is unacceptable, as it sees itself as the only thing that can save humanity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 29, 2010, 05:26:20 pm
GTVA society was headed for some kind of social collapse in the near future anyway; the Alliance has never (according to FS canon) been much of a sociopolitical power, and its leadership fears a repeat of the post-Lucifer meltdown if it can't find a way to extend its control (and I mean that in the sense of realpolitik, not some kind of sinister military state). The war with the Federation solves a great many problems, including, hopefully, this one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on August 29, 2010, 05:39:40 pm
The war doesn't solve the problem, it merely redirects attention from it.  The fact remains, you cannot stimulate an economy by dumping money into it, especially once you have obliterated it's ability to produce.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 29, 2010, 05:43:05 pm
The war doesn't solve the problem, it merely redirects attention from it.  The fact remains, you cannot stimulate an economy by dumping money into it, especially once you have obliterated it's ability to produce.

Please reread the previous posts and the techroom. The invasion is not designed to stimulate anybody's economy (though you should probably be aware that the neoclassical conservative school of economic thought that currently dominates, the Chicago School - which advocates a strong free market and deregulation with limited government intervention - believes that the best way to guide an economy out of a recession is to keep spending up.)

But that's immaterial. The invasion happens because of this:

You open the gate to Sol after eighteen years of focusing your entire civilization on it. This is literally the hope that has kept your government and your population together.

You find that it is under the control of a religious government with a non-elected leadership that can and probably will rapidly take control of your entire population.

Furthermore your assessment is that the government is totally unprepared to fight the Shivans and that if they gain control over human space your entire species will be in danger.

Worst of all there are hints that their leaders are taking advice from and possibly under the control of those mysterious alien powers that you've been getting hints of for a long time.

You have two choices: watch your government disintegrate as a massive return-to-Sol movement rips the colonies apart, handing control over to the Federation and its dubiously prepared and dubiously trustworthy leadership, or turn to your list of...less wholesome contingencies.

What do you do?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 29, 2010, 06:03:56 pm
The GTVA does believe that it can meet the Shivan threat.
That always sounded **** to me, especially since they have the records of the Orestes' battlegroup. Either they are REALLY blind, or they have some kind of superweapon somewhere. I'd say the first one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on August 29, 2010, 06:20:47 pm
What I think is this:

You are mistaken to think that the "colonies" are worthless without Sol.  Counting your 18 years, it's been close to half a century since the node was collapsed, it's the height of arrogance to think that the individual planets don't have at least a similar level of industrial infrastructure as Sol.  If anything Sol would be closer to be a used up husk of a star system than say Delta Serp or something since it's been industrialized longer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 29, 2010, 06:24:11 pm
Oh, the colonies aren't worthless, not by a long shot. But they're also heavily dispersed across several star systems, while everything is in one place in Sol. Not to mention that Sol's infrastructure is the most highly developed, most efficient one in the entire GTVA.

In addition, "used up husk"? Sometimes, we tend to forget just how big star systems really are. Exploiting one to the point of where it's unusable is very, very hard.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 29, 2010, 06:26:17 pm
What I think is this:

You are mistaken to think that the "colonies" are worthless without Sol.  Counting your 18 years, it's been close to half a century since the node was collapsed, it's the height of arrogance to think that the individual planets don't have at least a similar level of industrial infrastructure as Sol.  If anything Sol would be closer to be a used up husk of a star system than say Delta Serp or something since it's been industrialized longer.

Who said anything about the colonies being worthless without Sol?

I'm honestly not sure we can continue this discussion until you begin reading the posts aimed at you. This is not a matter of industry alone, not at all.

But if you want to focus on industry, let's talk about FS canon.

By FreeSpace canon the colonies lost the bulk of their industrial base with Sol. Since then they have splintered, reunified, beaten off a second Shivan incursion, lost a major system and slumped into a depression.

Sol, which had the bulk of all human industry at the time of the Isolation, went through a collapse and then a boom. It is a solar system. Its sum total population could not begin to come close to denting all the resources present in it. The asteroid belt alone could feed the industrialization of Sol for centuries to come.

Given that Capella was a major system with only a few million inhabitants, there is no way that the summed industry of the colonies matches Sol, even - perhaps even especially - fifty years later.

Again, this is all by FreeSpace canon and extrapolation thereof.

But it's not matter of industry alone. Sol is a symbol.

Did you read the previous posts aimed at you? Did you see the points made in the previous one enumerating the reasons for the invasion? Economics are one driving force but not the only one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 29, 2010, 06:26:49 pm
It's not you to decide that Liberator, it's already made pretty clear in the BP fluff.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on August 29, 2010, 08:51:44 pm
I'm having trouble getting pass the seventh mission called,"The Intervention."  The game runs fine but this mission has a bunch of questions numbered 1 thru 4 and so forth.  Help please :hammer:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 29, 2010, 09:06:59 pm
I'm having trouble getting pass the seventh mission called,"The Intervention."  The game runs fine but this mission has a bunch of questions numbered 1 thru 4 and so forth.  Help please :hammer:

Not a native English speaker, I'm guessing?

Somebody give this man a correct conversation - I don't have the mission file handy.

Basically what you have to do is a Mass Effect style RPG conversation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on August 29, 2010, 10:12:07 pm
Bah, I had thing long-winded reply typed up and then I went for Ice Cream and realized it doesn't matter.  I'm a boneheaded idiot with the education of a dog flea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 29, 2010, 10:43:34 pm
Bah, I had thing long-winded reply typed up and then I went for Ice Cream and realized it doesn't matter.  I'm a boneheaded idiot with the education of a dog flea.

No you're not, and your questions are good ones, but I do think we've established a solid grounding for the war by now. More solid than many real wars, for that matter!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on August 29, 2010, 10:51:50 pm
More solid than many real wars, for that matter!

In that they actually thought them out, or that we know the actual reasons behind it and not just the propaganda?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on August 29, 2010, 10:57:41 pm
Both probably.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 30, 2010, 03:50:07 am
Quote
Obvious solution: shut down the portal.
I don't think it's that easy. The Gamma Draconis - Nebula jumpnode was open for what.... weeks? And when the Knossos was destroyed the node remained stable (to it is a remote possibility that the Sathanas somehow is responsible for this).
The Sol - Delta Serpentis node is open for close to two years. Unless the gate has a mechanism build into it to turn the node unusable (which is very, very unlikely in my opinion), shutting down the portal won't do any good. They'd have to blow up the node, like they did with the Capella nodes.

On top of that the GTVA wants and even needs Sol. If anyone would be willing to close the node again, it might be people from Sol. Tough they would need to break through the GTVA blockade, destroy the portal in Delta Serpentis to make sure it works and then blow up the node (with all the anti-matter they have stored I think they could muster enough explosive force to destabilize the node).
But since neither the government nor the Fedayeen seem to be willing to cut themselfs off, there is noone who has even a remote chance of making that plan work.

And even if, by some miracle, that happens, it's only a temporary solution, since the GTVA can simply build a new portal, but this time they will probably have more support from the general public. Though the Vasudans might be even more against it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: achtung on August 30, 2010, 11:05:04 pm
Finally finished last night, and I must say I'm still thinking about things that happened through the campaign today. The playthrough on hard was a real son of a *****, but I managed to push through. Thank you VERY much for the checkpoint system. I will say this though, if you try to use the checkpoint system on Delenda Est there is no possible way to complete the mission on hard. The Katana and Alten Orde(?) jump in way too soon after the Carthage throws its remaining squadrons at you. No way to take out those beams as you're being pummeled by the Perseus' with Balors. Of course it was late, so I could've just been performing poorly myself.

Oh, and the Vasudan Logistics mission actually made me feel emotion, maybe even a slight glimmer of hope. Excellent work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 30, 2010, 11:28:14 pm
I will say this though, if you try to use the checkpoint system on Delenda Est there is no possible way to complete the mission on hard. The Katana and Alten Orde(?) jump in way too soon after the Carthage throws its remaining squadrons at you. No way to take out those beams as you're being pummeled by the Perseus' with Balors. Of course it was late, so I could've just been performing poorly myself.

Make sure you're on the latest patch. Did you download around release day?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: achtung on August 30, 2010, 11:52:25 pm
I will say this though, if you try to use the checkpoint system on Delenda Est there is no possible way to complete the mission on hard. The Katana and Alten Orde(?) jump in way too soon after the Carthage throws its remaining squadrons at you. No way to take out those beams as you're being pummeled by the Perseus' with Balors. Of course it was late, so I could've just been performing poorly myself.

Make sure you're on the latest patch. Did you download around release day?
Just a couple of weeks ago actually.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on September 01, 2010, 09:52:36 pm
Hi guys!  I'm crashing on the 14th mission and here's my FS2LOG.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 01, 2010, 10:06:45 pm
Hi guys!  I'm crashing on the 14th mission and here's my FS2LOG.

The heck...?

How did you make it up to the 14th mission?

You have a blueplanet2 folder inside your blueplanet2 folder. Move all the stuff in that second blueplanet2 out into the first one, then delete the empty folder.

You also...do not seem to have Blue Planet 1 installed at all. Where are your AoA Director's Cut files? All I see is the BP1 Audio VP.

You don't have 3D ship or weapon selection turned on either; please enable those.

Lastly...this log doesn't even seem to show mission loading. How are you able to get in-game at all with this error in the way?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 02, 2010, 12:04:42 am
What Battuta said.

est1985, for the last time, read the installation instructions in the War In Heaven release post AND FOLLOW THEM PRECISELY. If you do not do that, we CANNOT guarantee that anything will work correctly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 02, 2010, 04:45:40 am
I wonder what the situation is in the outer reaches of Sol.
I know the GTVA controlled Neptune for a while and what happened during WiH 1, but what about Uranus and beyond?
Did the UEF have any holdings there in the first place and if yes how did they fare throughout the war?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on September 03, 2010, 11:34:57 am
This is going to deviate from the thread discussion slightly, but fear not, it's useful. I actually just finished Age of Aquarius. ****ing brilliant. This rivals the canon FS2 campaign (though FS1 still reigns supreme), that's how good it is. The story is, dare I say it, flawless. The Vishnans in particular blew me away.

I was disappointed to read that War in Heaven will not be voice acted. For me, the voices of Bei, Corey and Taylor (Taylor especially, whoever did her voice has got some ass-kicking talent) really helped make Age of Aquarius what it is. However, you guys have done a tremendous job as it is and I applaud you on everything you've done.

I won't be getting War in Heaven as of yet as I should really be focusing on exams, but in due time, I will play it. Blue Planet really exemplifies the apex of this community's talent. You guys are amazing. Thank you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 03, 2010, 11:38:16 am
This is going to deviate from the thread discussion slightly, but fear not, it's useful. I actually just finished Age of Aquarius. ****ing brilliant. This rivals the canon FS2 campaign (though FS1 still reigns supreme), that's how good it is. The story is, dare I say it, flawless. The Vishnans in particular blew me away.

I was disappointed to read that War in Heaven will not be voice acted. For me, the voices of Bei, Corey and Taylor (Taylor especially, whoever did her voice has got some ass-kicking talent) really helped make Age of Aquarius what it is. However, you guys have done a tremendous job as it is and I applaud you on everything you've done.

I won't be getting War in Heaven as of yet as I should really be focusing on exams, but in due time, I will play it. Blue Planet really exemplifies the apex of this community's talent. You guys are amazing. Thank you.

War in Heaven will actually be VAed, it appears - we just said we couldn't do it on our own. But people have stepped up!

Really glad you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on September 03, 2010, 08:25:28 pm
War in Heaven will actually be VAed, it appears - we just said we couldn't do it on our own. But people have stepped up!
Really glad you enjoyed it.

What I should have said was "disappointed that it wouldn't be voice acted immediately", lol. But not disappointed as in "damn, those guys should have done better", but a hopeful, "aww that sucks" sort of disappointed. I know you guys will deliver the awesomeness in due time!

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to play Blue Planet instead of studying for exams. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Insomniac34 on September 04, 2010, 10:48:41 am
I'm running a GeForce GTX 295 and a Core 2 Quad processor, and I still have framerate issues on some levels. Is that normal? Any recomendations in hardware settings to make it move a little better?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 04, 2010, 11:36:55 am
I'm running a GeForce GTX 295 and a Core 2 Quad processor, and I still have framerate issues on some levels. Is that normal? Any recomendations in hardware settings to make it move a little better?

The War in Heaven models are very poorly optimized. You're gonna have to hold out while we try to get them fixed up, I'm afraid.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on September 04, 2010, 01:05:34 pm
I'm running a GeForce GTX 295 and a Core 2 Quad processor, and I still have framerate issues on some levels. Is that normal? Any recomendations in hardware settings to make it move a little better?

Have a 260 and I experience some problems myself, but only in the most cap-ship crammed missions.

Still I think its all about engine performance more than your GPU being unable to handle the output, because I can play DeadSpaceTM , MW2TM without this horrendous lag and almost full render options in both.

though I could be wrong about engine performance...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on September 04, 2010, 06:36:31 pm
War in Heaven will actually be VAed, it appears - we just said we couldn't do it on our own. But people have stepped up!

Exactly as it happened with AoA, ney?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 08, 2010, 09:49:49 am
War in Heaven will actually be VAed, it appears - we just said we couldn't do it on our own. But people have stepped up!

Exactly as it happened with AoA, ney?

Quite so.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on September 08, 2010, 10:48:27 am
IMO that's a good design strategy in general. You won't really be able to work with voicing much until you finalize the dialogue, which (at least for me) is just about when you finalize the mission. At best you'd start VAing halfway through development of the campaign itself, and VAing is such an incredibly intensive process that it would probably delay the release by more than the original development time. Voice acting in BP is truly impressive but it's not worth waiting another year for the actual release.

Director's Cut releases for the win.

And dayum- VAing for WiH is going to be incredibly hard given some of the moments the characters go through. Noemi especially is going to have a hell of a time voicing, for example, Sunglare's briefing/narrative. But judging by the standards of the BP team, I know whoever you get can pull it off :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Evangelist on September 08, 2010, 11:21:39 am
Getting a replacement joystick tomorrow.  My Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 died three years ago (RIP :() and since then I've done all my Freespacing with a long suffering mouse.  No longer!

Can't wait to play this through again properly, at a higher difficulty and with proper aiming.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on September 08, 2010, 08:09:41 pm
Hello. I have downloaded the new Blue Planet 2 War in Heaven, that was posted on freespacemods.net.  This version is very easy to install but I'm having trouble with mission 8 (Act 2 Apotheosis). There are a series of questions that must be answered by hitting numbers 1-4 using the keyboard; and there are about 7 questions in total.  The first time I played this Mod, I got passed this and heard music, then there was a battle.  Now when I type in the same numbers on the keyboard, I can't get past this.  I've already played missions 9-13 before.  Any help would be appreciated. :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on September 08, 2010, 08:20:21 pm
Hello. I have downloaded the new Blue Planet 2 War in Heaven, that was posted on freespacemods.net.  This version is very easy to install but I'm having trouble with mission 8 (Act 2 Apotheosis). There are a series of questions that must be answered by hitting numbers 1-4 using the keyboard; and there are about 7 questions in total.  The first time I played this Mod, I got passed this and heard music, then there was a battle.  Now when I type in the same numbers on the keyboard, I can't get past this.  I've already played missions 9-13 before.  Any help would be appreciated. :confused:
What do you mean "can't get past"? The battle should happen regardless of whether you succeed or fail the dialog.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 08, 2010, 08:38:04 pm
Hello. I have downloaded the new Blue Planet 2 War in Heaven, that was posted on freespacemods.net.  This version is very easy to install but I'm having trouble with mission 8 (Act 2 Apotheosis). There are a series of questions that must be answered by hitting numbers 1-4 using the keyboard; and there are about 7 questions in total.  The first time I played this Mod, I got passed this and heard music, then there was a battle.  Now when I type in the same numbers on the keyboard, I can't get past this.  I've already played missions 9-13 before.  Any help would be appreciated. :confused:

Does the advice in the last stage of the briefing help at all? Or (this is a serious question, not some kind of mockery) are you a non-native speaker?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: est1895 on September 08, 2010, 08:47:47 pm
Well... my broken english is not good ...so it is hard to explain. :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 08, 2010, 08:52:14 pm
Well... my broken english is not good ...so it is hard to explain. :lol:

Can someone give him a sequence that will work?

As I recall, try flirting with her, then apologize sincerely and then assert your own skills. It should be hard to fail from that point on.

Once you've gotten a good outcome once you can skip the whole conversation from the opening menu.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 09, 2010, 11:36:37 am
i don't remember being able to skip the second time through.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 09, 2010, 11:38:04 am
i don't remember being able to skip the second time through.

The option's right there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 09, 2010, 08:12:48 pm
"Press Fire to skip"?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kiloku on September 12, 2010, 07:09:45 pm
I loved the checkpoint system (And I'm loving WiH all in all), but will we ever see it reach a level where it saves our Hull Integrity, Shields, Energy, Ammo, damaged subsystems and whetever else we'd want to save in a checkpoint? I feel kinda cheap recovering all my missiles on the checkpoint...
BTW: Sorry if that was mentioned before.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on September 12, 2010, 07:11:29 pm
I loved the checkpoint system (And I'm loving WiH all in all), but will we ever see it reach a level where it saves our Hull Integrity, Shields, Energy, Ammo, damaged subsystems and whetever else we'd want to save in a checkpoint? I feel kinda cheap recovering all my missiles on the checkpoint...
BTW: Sorry if that was mentioned before.
If I recall correctly, they had to do it that way because they ran out of variables. If they had more of those avaialable they should be able to save more precise locations, and other stats too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 12, 2010, 07:34:54 pm
I loved the checkpoint system (And I'm loving WiH all in all), but will we ever see it reach a level where it saves our Hull Integrity, Shields, Energy, Ammo, damaged subsystems and whetever else we'd want to save in a checkpoint? I feel kinda cheap recovering all my missiles on the checkpoint...
BTW: Sorry if that was mentioned before.

Your hull integrity should be saved, but until the engine variable limit is bumped we can't achieve higher resolution. We did all we could.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on September 12, 2010, 10:06:25 pm
is there a good reason for the variable limit, or is it just low on the list of priorities?  seems like increasing it should be no problem to me.  i think all our computers these days have a few more bytes to spare.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 12, 2010, 10:13:49 pm
is there a good reason for the variable limit, or is it just low on the list of priorities?  seems like increasing it should be no problem to me.  i think all our computers these days have a few more bytes to spare.

Any changes made to the engine must be done very carefully. The_E recently posted a build with the limit bumped to 250; go check it out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 16, 2010, 10:11:57 am
I just managed to save the Vilnius in mission three, but Kassim still talked about seeing bodies of it's crew floating around.... and it didn't warp out either when the retreat order came.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on September 16, 2010, 10:15:19 am
How the deuce did you manage to save the Vilnus? it dies before I even get there T_T
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 16, 2010, 10:40:46 am
I just managed to save the Vilnius in mission three, but Kassim still talked about seeing bodies of it's crew floating around.... and it didn't warp out either when the retreat order came.

Yeah, that's a design flaw we were aware of before release but didn't fix. We'd never seen anybody save the Vilnius, but we knew it was possible, and unfortunately we just didn't get a railroad or branch in place.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 16, 2010, 11:23:40 am
Quote
How the deuce did you manage to save the Vilnus? it dies before I even get there T_T
By being fast, precise, determined, a bit lucky ..... and switching to lowest difficulty setting.

You "just" have to take out three slasher beams on the Hecate (the two on the bottom and one in the back) and one on the Deimos (the backwards one). After that you should continue to disarm a few more turrets on the Deimos (on try two the Juarez took down the Vilnius with the FLAK on her middle engine....) and if you're lucky, the Vilnius will survive (at 4% when I finally managed on the third try). I'm not 100% sure, but I think some fighters attack that cruiser too.
You really have to blast towards the enemy at full speed right from the beginning, before the Vilnius even jumps in.

I was even able to take down the Juarez' engines and get it destroyed too :D That was for Luna you murderous bastards!

My loadout was Mauler in the tripple slot (but I only used that on a few fighters after disarming any turrets that shot at the Vilnius) and Scalpel in the other. Thinking back, it would have probably been better the other way round....
Missiles: all out Hellfire.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on September 17, 2010, 11:47:24 am
I was just playing one of the missions with Serkr Team (I forgot which one), when I noticed something odd.  I was flying towards them, and noticed that the Bellerophon didn't seem to have beam cannons, but then they just appeared as I got closer. 

I looked at the models in PCS2, and the second lods for both the Chimera and Bellerophon do not have any turrets, which is not unusual.  However, the lack of main beams on the second lod is quite noticable.  In game, it is very obvious when the games switches lods on these ships as you fly towards them. 

Would it be possible to add at least the main beam cannons to the second lods of these ships?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2010, 11:51:44 am
I was just playing one of the missions with Serkr Team (I forgot which one), when I noticed something odd.  I was flying towards them, and noticed that the Bellerophon didn't seem to have beam cannons, but then they just appeared as I got closer. 

I looked at the models in PCS2, and the second lods for both the Chimera and Bellerophon do not have any turrets, which is not unusual.  However, the lack of main beams on the second lod is quite noticable.  In game, it is very obvious when the games switches lods on these ships as you fly towards them. 

Would it be possible to add at least the main beam cannons to the second lods of these ships?

Yeah, that's something we noticed and would like to fix. We could always use some modelers to help out, as Esarai is very busy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 17, 2010, 12:13:04 pm
Forget about Tevs ships, Steve-O's ships are the ones needing the more work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SP2000 on September 17, 2010, 01:27:28 pm
Impressions are as follows:

First of all I thought Age of Aquarius was awfully mediocre. It felt just out of place within the FS Universe. Too much focus on character drama and fulfilling your destiny and adding in Vishnans which seemed like a "oh we need a good epic ancient race to counter the evil epic ancient race" The cold militarism of the Freespace universe was gone and in it's place was a load of spiritual crap. This is FS, not BSG(or at least BSG after it became stupid)

Now, War in Heaven. I'll start with the criticism.

The POV seemed skewed somewhat heavily towards the Ubuntu side. Now, I know that the viewpoint of Laporte is different than that of the authors, but still. It's just that the overall campaign seemed to portray the GTVA as the big bad imperialistic goons fighting against a peaceful, enlightened race. I see that both sides have a point to their argument, even though I think the GTVA is right in the long term. I think a few missions from the GTVA side are in order, simply to keep things balanced. The UEF seemed almost flawless when from the backstory it appears they are just as flawed at the GTVA except in another way.

Although it was much less than Age of Aquarius, the visions and spirituality should be toned down a bit. The briefings should be a little bit more formal. One of the things I like about FS is how the Command Briefings convey almost no emotion, simply facts and objectives. It lends an air of authenticity to everything. A problem with many custom campaigns that makes them lose professionalism and turns them into melodramatic fan fiction(not saying that BP is) is that they try to inject emotion and feelings into Freespace. FS has always had a very militaristic atmosphere while being dark and mysterious. I hope that whatever new projects you guys release will try to keep this intact as much as possible.

Now on the other hand, War in Heaven has excellent missions and gameplay. I don't say this lightly, but it's probably got the best missions of any FS2 campaign.
The last mission in particular was amazing. This is what war is space should be like. Every other mission in the FS2 engine was shamed after playing that.The amount of ships
and flak and beams and general firepower on display made it feel like it was a fleet engagement of the highest order. Even when other campaigns claim to have big battles, I am usually let down. I didn't think
the engine was capable of this.

Great use of "Budget Meeting" from the King Arthur soundtrack. Might want to take Globus - Preliator out and replace it, since it's a little bit overused in the sense of being epic cliche music, but at least you didn't use Reqium for a dream. But otherwise great music overall.

I have high hopes for whatever new campaigns are released. I just hope that more of the FS style atmosphere is used and there is less focus on characters and more on the overall war.

Also I just realized I have 3 posts over 6 years. Is that a record or something?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2010, 01:37:20 pm
BP is a definite departure from the core FreeSpace narrative style in terms of its approach to emotion. And yeah, not everybody's going to like that. It's a tricky line to walk, since most of our commenters love it, and then some of them are very vocal in disliking it.

I think in the long run people will see the spiritualism/destiny stuff in a more...subversive light. I can't talk more about that, but it's something we're interested in examining from more than one angle (i.e. Sam's very accepting angle). We know what we're doing there, and how it meshes with the mood of FS2, but it hasn't paid off yet.

I'm glad you enjoyed the missions and the campaign! Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 17, 2010, 02:20:13 pm
Hey, if people don't like BP, shame on them. Haters gotta hate. To the BP crew : don't change anything guys.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: achtung on September 17, 2010, 05:04:20 pm
I like the new narrative style, it's nice to have a departure from the cold and utilitarian FreeSpace style.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 17, 2010, 05:37:50 pm
Besides, good authors never write books for their fans. They just write books and the true fans will come. That's what I like about BP.  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on September 17, 2010, 09:56:48 pm
Hey, if people don't like BP, shame on them. Haters gotta hate.
I hope this wasn't directed towards SP2000, because he's obviously not a hater.

It's just that the overall campaign seemed to portray the GTVA as the big bad imperialistic goons fighting against a peaceful, enlightened race.
I was quite surprised by this, though. For me, every intercepted message seemed to scream, "These are the 'good guys' you're killing." Their tactics may be ruthless, but they're fighting for the survival of the human race.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 17, 2010, 09:59:12 pm
If the narrative tries to convince you that the GTVA is big bad and imperialistic, that's because it's pretty distorted by Laporte's point of view.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2010, 10:08:03 pm
If the narrative tries to convince you that the GTVA is big bad and imperialistic, that's because it's pretty distorted by Laporte's point of view.

Even Laporte doesn't believe that until the end. And even then I'm not sure she believes it intellectually; she just comes to recognize the need to hate the enemy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 18, 2010, 01:51:32 am
Hey, if people don't like BP, shame on them. Haters gotta hate.
I hope this wasn't directed towards SP2000, because he's obviously not a hater.
Nope, rather after Battuta about those "very vocal disliking it" - which is a friendly way of saying "haters" to me :D

Anyway, the GTVA isn't really BAD, it's just a bunch of fools who think they stand a chance against the Shivans - which is so obviously wrong it's just not funny anymore.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on September 18, 2010, 02:28:51 am
The Alliance will start believing you when you put the pictures from the Shivan get together at the Feds' place on facebook. :P

Until then, there's no tangible reason for the Alliance to support the Elders' "We'll invite them over for tea and talk it over," solution.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 18, 2010, 03:44:18 am
Anyway, the GTVA isn't really BAD, it's just a bunch of fools who think they stand a chance against the Shivans - which is so obviously wrong it's just not funny anymore.

The objective isn't even to fight them on a straight level, it's to hold them long enough to collapse a node. That's entirely within the realm of possiblity. It also fits nicely in with the GTVA's belief that the UEF would destroy the forward defense concept necessary to have a chance of survival.

So if you think the GTVA are fools, it's because you don't understand what's going on. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 18, 2010, 07:55:20 am
I'm not even gonna answer to a post which is both obviously wrong and obviously trolling.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on September 18, 2010, 08:00:17 am
Anyway, the GTVA isn't really BAD, it's just a bunch of fools who think they stand a chance against the Shivans - which is so obviously wrong it's just not funny anymore.

The objective isn't even to fight them on a straight level, it's to hold them long enough to collapse a node. That's entirely within the realm of possiblity. It also fits nicely in with the GTVA's belief that the UEF would destroy the forward defense concept necessary to have a chance of survival.

So if you think the GTVA are fools, it's because you don't understand what's going on. :P
I have no doubt that's part of it, but I fully expect to find out that the GTVA's plans are much scarier and awesomer that that. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on September 18, 2010, 08:50:38 am
I'm not even gonna answer to a post which is both obviously wrong and obviously trolling.
I thought NGTM-1R has a valid point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 18, 2010, 09:27:24 am
I thought so too. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 18, 2010, 09:51:31 am
You can't "hold" the Shivans when they start sending Dantes. And the GTVA know of Dantes since they have the records of the 14th battlegroup. Nuf said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on September 18, 2010, 10:15:03 am
You can't "hold" the Shivans when they start sending Dantes. And the GTVA know of Dantes since they have the records of the 14th battlegroup. Nuf said.
It's better than just committing mass suicide, which is what you would be doing otherwise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 18, 2010, 10:56:26 am
You're depressing dudes, you always forget the most important. It seems this debate is starting every few weeks and noone learn from it. I'm just tired of repeating the same thing, I suggest you to report to the previous topics in which it was discussed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Venicius on September 18, 2010, 11:00:32 am
I really enjoyed the opportunity to fly against the GTVA, and by the second mission, I really did begin to hate them.  The Laporte/Simms relationship was, in my opinion distracting and I wasn't all that crazy about iy, but it was still written well.  Great job on WiH gameplay and story, can't wait to play the next part of it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on September 18, 2010, 11:15:33 am
You're depressing dudes, you always forget the most important. It seems this debate is starting every few weeks and noone learn from it. I'm just tired of repeating the same thing, I suggest you to report to the previous topics in which it was discussed.
Once again, it's possible that the GTVA's plan comprises much more than just closing nodes to the Shivans. I think it does.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on September 18, 2010, 12:14:24 pm
You're depressing dudes, you always forget the most important. It seems this debate is starting every few weeks and noone learn from it. I'm just tired of repeating the same thing, I suggest you to report to the previous topics in which it was discussed.

So are you, and you're not contributing anything really useful - just "Feds have solution", and so far it seems to be TALKING to the Shivans, which didn't work too well for Bosch.

So, yeah, GTVA has a better solution.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 18, 2010, 12:16:57 pm
which didn't work too well for Bosch.

You are sure about this?

Also, plz2notflamewar, kthnx.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 18, 2010, 12:31:26 pm
Quote
Even Laporte doesn't believe that until the end. And even then I'm not sure she believes it intellectually; she just comes to recognize the need to hate the enemy.
Are you so sure about that?
If yes then you didn't read the "recommendations" in the "Their Darkest Hour" debriefing.
It goes something like that:

Spoiler:
My fighters was covered in soot from the Valkyries explosion, consisting partially of the dead crew. I got it on my hands, flightsuit and even my face. I havn't washed since.
Now the incident with the SOC wing might have brought her back a bit, but to me it seems that she hated the GTVA even before the assasination. Maybe not as uncompromising and deeply, but still hated them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on September 18, 2010, 12:45:46 pm
which didn't work too well for Bosch.

You are sure about this?

Also, plz2notflamewar, kthnx.
Bosch might have lots of plunder and Shivan wimmenz, but it certainly didn't work very well for 99% of his followers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 18, 2010, 02:29:30 pm
I'll bite this time I guess, entering the discussion. Both the GTVA and UEF when looking at the whole picture deserve merit. The UEF might know more than we think they know, possibly hoping to make peace with the Shivans. The GTVA hopes to control the jump nodes, so that the Shivans (or anyone) can't pour through. I assumed Bosch might be the Shivan-elected ambassador to humankind, which might explain why the Shivans bother to communicate through Nagari people in the first place. I always say that if they wanted us dead, they'd probably throw a handful of Sathanas Juggy's at us spearheaded by the Dante herself.

Both factions are taking a gamble. The UEF cannot know for sure if the Shivans already condemned us at the start of their first invasion. The GTVA does not know the slightest of the true technological might the Shivans have. The Shivans keep surprising us, so perhaps they might be able to open nodes anywhere: it might just cost such an effort that the Shivans prefer to travel through excisting nodes. Alternately, the Shivans might be able to build a Knossos device themselves. If the ancients could, sure the Shivans can. And if there's a GTVA gate on one side of the node and a Shivan gate on the other side having a tug of war trying to close and open the node, my bet is on the Shivans every time.

Also, we do not know what the entire universe looks like. The Shivan/Vishan/former-Brahman council may only be but one of many giantic forces living in the universe. So far we only got to look at our own galaxy, the milky way, which is a tiny place. But let's not ponder on the entire universe. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 18, 2010, 03:34:38 pm
Only the milkyway is overstating the scrope of FS2 quite a bit (a bit as in comparing a glass of water to an ocean).
There are millions of suns in our galaxy and how many systems are part of Freespace? Maybe a dozen?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 18, 2010, 05:19:35 pm
I more meant as the expected reach of the Vishans and Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 18, 2010, 07:50:43 pm
You can't "hold" the Shivans when they start sending Dantes. And the GTVA know of Dantes since they have the records of the 14th battlegroup. Nuf said.

They've also never sent Dantes first. The most powerful first strike group was a Ravana. (No, not the Lucifer, :v: has explicitly stated they worked their way in through a few preliminary systems first.)

All previous encounters with the Shivans have been in the form of meeting engagements, and the GTVA actually won the battle of the intial buildup in the first stages of the Nebular Campaign. While it's a bit of an ugly plan relying on intentions rather than capablities, it is a workable one and precedent from both previous encounters with the Shivans support it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on September 18, 2010, 07:59:07 pm
Additionally, I'm not sure a Dante would be an insurmountable adversary with the capabilities of Titans and Raynors in regards to their torpedo armament, as well as beams.  Shock jumping corvettes wouldn't exactly be life threatening, but they would still hurt, especially if they use that first volley of beam fire to target an important subsystem like, say, weapons?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 18, 2010, 08:20:42 pm
Additionally, I'm not sure a Dante would be an insurmountable adversary with the capabilities of Titans and Raynors in regards to their torpedo armament, as well as beams.  Shock jumping corvettes wouldn't exactly be life threatening, but they would still hurt, especially if they use that first volley of beam fire to target an important subsystem like, say, weapons?

By the looks of it 10 times the health of a Sathanas, so destructable if the GTVA would throw the majority of their fleet at it. Also has 4BFRED 24SRED and a lot of anti fighter weaponry (beams and flak) according to the wiki. I doubt said Dante travels alone however and with an escort of destroyers and perhaps one or more juggernaughts that would quickly change the odds. But, how many Dante's are there. Is it merely their ultra capital class or is it their version of the Colossus: a single super vessel and one of it's kind.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on September 18, 2010, 09:01:47 pm
You don't get it, the problem is not the type of ship they've got, the problem is their numbers.
No matter what you've got, Shivans will pwn us all for great cosmological justice.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 18, 2010, 09:14:13 pm
The GTVA doesn't know that, though.  From their point of view, all they see are angry Shivans who can and will unleash massive destruction on mankind at the request of an unknowable whim.  Would you not fight faceless destroyers with unknowable motives, or would you choose something that has a ridiculously slim chance of survival?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 18, 2010, 09:36:46 pm
You don't get it, the problem is not the type of ship they've got, the problem is their numbers.
No matter what you've got, Shivans will pwn us all for great cosmological justice.

You clearly didn't grasp the scenario I posisted.

Hell, you clearly didn't grasp the scenario you played in FS2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on September 18, 2010, 11:50:40 pm
Alright I read the stickies, downloaded all the lastest stuff and I am still unable to play WIH. Ladies and gentlemen I would like to run this mod and this problem is becoming painful in the late hours of the day.

I have a new computer, so I transferred all my old files to it with no issues. The 3.6.12 FS2 retail campaign runs fine. Now when I run the mod with the core, visuals 1, visuals 2 and audio all packed in a file titled blueplanetWIH, I get this most frustrating error...

bp2-wep.tbm(line 789:
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [+Unknown Miss Factor:               1.4 1.]
in weapon: SRed
.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

I don't know what to make of this. I see the word INF in there, so is there something going on with that? I checked for the most recent version and as far as I know I have it. Anyone up late? I would like to be defending earth as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 19, 2010, 12:27:14 am
You are not using 3.6.12 final, but RC2l. Please use final, it'll solve that error.

In addition please rename your War in Heaven folder to blueplanet2 or you could hit serious trouble in the future.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on September 19, 2010, 02:47:26 am
I think the GTVA's strategy with containing a Shivan invasion is quite good, and they did successfully enact and carry out their contingency plan for evacuating an inhibited star system in the Second Great War. What bothers me more, at least in the BP backstory, is that Capella seems to have magnified the GTVA's weaknesses as a governing body. This can be seen in GTVA's performance in dealing with the aftermath - slow economic recovery, increasing regionalism and strained diplomatic relations with the Vasudans and now the UEF civil war. Reduced Terran-Vasudan officer exchanges, for example, hampers coordination between fleets in case of an invasion. Continuing economic problems makes the GTVA a less attractive government, contributes to secessionist activity, and may hamper fleet building. These deficiencies are already undermining and will continue to undermine the GTVA's ability to coordinate its activities and deal with the Shivan threat and other threats to humanity, and, depending on the severity of these issues, may eventually threaten the GTVA's continuation as a political entity. Success is more than just a ideological choice between 'vigilance' and 'negotiation' but also a matter of expediency and effectiveness in government. In light of repeated Shivan invasions, a test of good governance is that the GTVA recovers from crisis, not just stopping the incursions but thereafter regaining strength socially and economically. Whilst returning to Sol held the GTVA together, even if they win the civil war, it doesn't exactly fix the long-terms diplomatic and governance issues.

It's possible to take a "well, if humanity is dumb enough to reject the GTVA, then it deserves to end" kind of opinion, but I don't think it's that simple.

I do not propose the UEF as an ideal solution to these problems. I agree with the GTVI opinion that the UEF is a product of its circumstances, and if it were to take on the GTVA's role, it would be a very different animal. Its military preparedness is probably not at GTVA levels, and that is a definite problem. However, I find the GTVI's view on the threat of mass emigration to Sol quite extraordinary - is the GTVA that bad at serving its citizens needs or Ubuntu that good? The UEF's amazing success at realigning Sol's economy and socio-political situation after losing all interstellar contact is quite incredible, the amount of redistribution of resources in the economy, for example, would have caused disturbances fatal to many governments (the Sol GTA's failed command economy being one example).

As for the talking to aliens situation, I think I'll have to see WiH R2 first. We know these people exist - the Beis, Noemi; there are other, possibly - the prophet, the Elders, Lt Ash, FS1 Alpha One, Bosch, maybe others. We'll have to see. I think the resolution of the situation also depends on what the Vishnans meant in the dialogue with Bei at the end of AoA as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 19, 2010, 04:23:29 am
What they meant and how honest they were with it.
Just because they tell Bei something, doesn't mean it's really true.

The team said often enough that the Vishnans have their own agenda and everything we know about them is what they told Bei. The only thing that Humanity knows for sure about the Vishnans is their combat performance and even there Samuel seemed to have had a big impact on tactics, both directly (by giving orders) and indirectly (by the knowledge the Vishnans pulled out of his brain).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on September 19, 2010, 04:27:31 am
They might have said things which are intended to bring about a certain result without being completely honest or dishonest. Plus, with things that vague, it's always open to interpretation, or even our interpretation of the BP team.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 19, 2010, 08:35:11 am
For that matter, simply because we can talk to the Shivans doesn't mean they're going to listen. They wouldn't listen to the Vishnans, who are in an infinitely stronger posistion to hold a rational discussion with an entity like the Shivans. If you accept the numbers argument people throw about against the GTVA, then you also accept that the Shivans don't need to listen to either side. They can crush everybody with equal ease. This isn't a species with a track record that suggests benevolence.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 19, 2010, 08:45:42 am
On the other hand you can't just map the Shivans actions in the other universe over to ours.
When the Vishnans tried to talk the Shivans out of fighting, they argued about the destruction of the 14th battlegroup plus the Sanctuary. They didn't argue about the third Shivan incursion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 19, 2010, 08:58:21 am
So you're saying they're not arguing about trying to wipe out humanity? Because that's what both discussions would be at the core.

In the alternate universe they didn't want to leave the job unfinished in form of the Sanctuary, and they added 14th Battlegroup to the targetlist despite their nature as being essentially strangers who just want to go home. The Shivans didn't HAVE to hit 14th Battlegroup on the way out. They could have focused on the Sanctuary. So not only did they want to wipe out all that remained of humanity in that universe, they wanted to wipe out all humans period.

The really scary thing though is that they wouldn't listen to the Vishnans, who are their equals. Humanity is at best a child and at worst an anthill in comparison. Why should the Shivans even bother to discuss anything with us if they don't accept the judgements of their equals?

For that matter, even in the regular FS Universe the Shivans have never showed a real capacity for mercy. They kept attacking convoys out of Capella long after it should have been obvious the GTVA didn't have the resources insystem to upset their plans. The Lucifer fleet was completely indiscriminate in target selection and neither asked nor offered quarter. Now, there is a slim (very slim) possiblity that the Shivans were provoked both times, but the response in either case wasn't remotely proportional either. This does not paint a picture of a race that is accustomed to leaving survivors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 19, 2010, 09:10:39 am
There is a difference between stepping on 5 ants and taking out an entire anthill....

Apart from that we don't know for sure wether the Shivans are interdimensional like the Vishnans appear to be (which again doesn't necessarily mean they really are), so maybe in our universe the Vishnans and Shivans are still a happy family.

In that argument the Vishnans said something along those lines
"One species is now annihilated, do you seek to destroy the other as well?"
But the Vasudans were only wiped out in the other universe, which to me is a pretty good indicator that they weren't talking about any inter-dimensional battle, but only about that particular universe.
In addition to that, it's been two years since that moment and the Shivans still didn't attack.
Now maybe they have some kind of feudal system and need that much time to muster an invasion force, but I somhow doubt that very much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on September 19, 2010, 01:54:02 pm
Quote
There is a difference between stepping on 5 ants and taking out an entire anthill....

Not when the hill is home to only five or six ants.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on September 19, 2010, 04:16:59 pm
AAH problems problems problems! I took battuta's advice and things are working... better, but I got this in game error message message right after the FS2 intro cutscene saying "The currently active mod has generated 37 warnings and\or errors during program startup. These could have been caused by anything from incorrectly formatted table files to corrupt modules... ...Source code project staff cannot provide assistance or support for these problems, as they are caused by the mod's data files, not Freespace open's source code."

Mediavps runs error free. It seems the error triggers only when I try to run WIH. If I press 'ok' when I see the error message, I can get to the flight deck. I am able to run "The blade itself", which I must say after having played it was quite an unexpected surprise. I must have gone through that mission 5 or so times by now. The UEF main battle frigate is pretty cool, let alone being able to control one. I was very excited to see that kind of innovative gameplay. I kept trying to see how well I could dance around enemy Deimos corvettes while feeding them large missiles.
 From what I have read on the forums, many people have said cap ship missions don't work. I think this one worked quite well. I thought It was pretty well balanced too. I hope this is the start of more such missions as the campaign description implied.

Anyways However, when I try to run the main campaign for WIH off the flight deck I get this error message. Last night, It's appearance was so discouraging that it put me to sleep. Keep in mind this is after seeing the previous message and hitting 'Ok'.

asystem Gate"
      "UEI Bretonia"
      "Scimitar"
   )
   ( tech-add-intel
      "Shivans in the Great War"
      "The Second Incursion"
      "The Post-Capella GTVA"
      "Earth"
      "Aken Bosch"
      "Vasudans"
      "Hammer of Light"
      "The Ancients"
      "Shivans"
      "Subspace"
      "The Rift"
      "The Rift Part 2"
      "Vasudan Mysticism"
      "Vasudan Mysticism part 2"
      "Project Nagari"
      "Project Nagari Part 2"
      "Vishnans and the 14th BG"
      "Vishnans - What We Know"
      "The Reunion"
      "The Reunion Part 2"
      "The Balance of Power"
      "The Balance of Power Part 2"
      "The Balance of Power Part 3"
      "The Balance of Power Part 4"
      "The Balance of Power Part 5"
      "United Earth Federation"
      "The Council of Elders"
      "The Fedayeen"
      "The Gaian Effort"
   )
   ( allow-weapon "Gattler" )
)
(Error appears to be: Mass Driver#Karuna)
File: missionparse.cpp
Line: 5388

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
atioglxx.dll! atiPS + 2878517 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

I have the core, visuals 1 and visuals 2 installed as well as audio. all the vps are in a folder titled blueplanet2. I downloaded INF http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70692.0 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70692.0) here so I don't think that's the problem this time even though I see INF a lot in that error message. I have been continually trying to reorder files to see if that's the issue but from what I can see, everything is in its rightful place.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 19, 2010, 04:21:08 pm
Please post a debug log. Instructions for how to do tihis are in the FSO FAQ, which is found here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.0

I suspect the error to be a missing or not updated BP: AoA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 19, 2010, 04:25:05 pm
Yeah, I'm guessing you didn't update your AoA install to the latest version. It may not be located in the 'blueplanet' folder either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 19, 2010, 06:52:52 pm
Quote
There is a difference between stepping on 5 ants and taking out an entire anthill....

Not when the hill is home to only five or six ants.
Some people must find it hilarious to pull a metaphor out of context....

Okay let's go a bit deeper:
The 5 ants are the 14th battlegroup and the Sanctuary.
The anthill is the whole GTVA.

Are you trying to tell me that the whole GTVA has the same number of people living in it, as the combined crews of the 14th battlegroups ships and the ones sleeping in the Sanctuary?

To wipe out that convoy from AoA the Shivans would only need a single Sathanas jumping in behind them and in range. Before the bombers could scratch the paint off the beamguns or the capships could turn and bring their heavy beams to bear, the 14th battlegroup would be a cloud of molten metal.
Wiping out the GTVA requires a lot more effort and fleet assets, not to mention the possible reconstruction of a node into their terretory.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on September 19, 2010, 07:51:56 pm
Quote
The 5 ants are the 14th battlegroup and the Sanctuary.
The anthill is the whole GTVA.

Counter-interpretation:
The five ants are the 14th battlegroup and the Sanctuary.
The anthill is the entire human race in that universe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 20, 2010, 04:38:11 am
The thing you quoted isn't an interpretation, but an explenation of what I to express with that metaphor. Since it states very clearly what I meant, there is no room for interpretations.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on September 20, 2010, 12:09:40 pm
Then you should probably have picked a better metaphor if you didn't want an alternate interpretation that conflicts with your own.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 20, 2010, 12:12:20 pm
You have to decide whether your metaphor is about red ants or black ants.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 20, 2010, 12:26:07 pm
Quote
Then you should probably have picked a better metaphor if you didn't want an alternate interpretation that conflicts with your own.
Maybe, but I didn't choose it, I just replyed to it, after NGTM-R1 chose that metaphor. What upset me a bit yesterday was, that you didn't quote the actual metaphor (at which point different interpretations are only natural - even though I still think the context shows pretty clearly what I meant in the first place), but rather you quoted my explenation of how I meant it for your comment.

Color?
If the GTVA humans are the red ones and the UEF the black.... does that make the Vasudans termites?
And what are the Shivans, since they are far more "swarming" still?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on September 20, 2010, 01:04:44 pm
Shivans would be army ants. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 20, 2010, 01:06:50 pm
shivans are the delicious sashila
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 20, 2010, 01:33:04 pm
Maybe, but I didn't choose it, I just replyed to it, after NGTM-R1 chose that metaphor. What upset me a bit yesterday was, that you didn't quote the actual metaphor (at which point different interpretations are only natural - even though I still think the context shows pretty clearly what I meant in the first place), but rather you quoted my explenation of how I meant it for your comment.

Hey, it's my metaphor to define! However context is irrevelant; Snail is perfectly correct in his assertion that they do constitute the entire anthill in the alternate universe, and the Shivans did try to kill them all.

(Batts is poking fun at your obtuseness. And possibly Snail's.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on September 20, 2010, 02:35:24 pm
Snail? :wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 20, 2010, 03:14:40 pm
Snail? :wtf:
On that we certainly agree. That was exactly what was going through my mind when I read that :lol:

And joining in the joking is the best way to reply to someone poking fun at you :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 20, 2010, 04:11:08 pm
Snail? :wtf:

You S people are all alike!

I'm at work, I don't have time to check things properly after reading. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 21, 2010, 04:35:51 pm
For the fun of testing the Dante's strenghts I just pitted several GTVA battlegroups (about a total of 10-15 destroyers and 20 corvettes) against a Dante with FRED. It wasn't pretty and that was with leaving any escorting Shivan destroyers out. Yes they managed to disarm the Dante, but not before it's four giantic beam cannons torn through several ships with great ease, taking a few more along before it's smaller beams were shut down also. Safe to say an invasion force of several Dante's cannot be repelled by any GTVA means as we currently know them (unless they are holding something back). A redo of the mission with several Ravanas, Demons and two Sathanas juggernaughts probably results in a total slaughter. Isolating the Dante and hitting her while keeping her engine down might result in destroying it. Still if they would have more than one Dante, that'd matter little. Collapsing the gates seems viable, since a single Dante might be stopped if rallying the majority of GTVA's fleets is possible, at the cost of great loss.

You S people are all alike!

I'm glad there's a dash before and after my username. :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: blowfish on September 21, 2010, 05:58:00 pm
The Dante's main beams are actually only BFReds in AoA.  It's not hugely more powerful than the Sath, though it has a huge number of SReds and of course hitpoints.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 05:59:44 pm
The Dante's main beams are actually only BFReds in AoA.  It's not hugely more powerful than the Sath, though it has a huge number of SReds and of course hitpoints.

There's so much I'd like to say and so little I can!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 21, 2010, 07:11:30 pm
Quote
For the fun of testing the Dante's strenghts I just pitted several GTVA battlegroups (about a total of 10-15 destroyers and 20 corvettes) against a Dante with FRED
I'm quite surprised about that number.
I just tried to pit 3 Solaris, 5 Karunas and 5 Narajanas against a Dante. And the UEF won with all three destroyers, 4 Karunas and one Narajana surviving on medium difficulty.
That is, after I replaced the Solarises torpedoes with Apocalypse#Narajana.... for some reason they just wouldn't fire their own torpedoes. Even when they were in range of their gattler turrets (which have less range) they didn't fire their Apocalypse#Solaris...

On a sidenote: In another attempt a Solaris repeatedly blew a Raynor away in about 1 minute without losing more than 30 seconds, but was also repeatedly wasted by two salvos from a Titan in direct "nose-to-nose" fights.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 21, 2010, 07:22:19 pm
Quote
For the fun of testing the Dante's strenghts I just pitted several GTVA battlegroups (about a total of 10-15 destroyers and 20 corvettes) against a Dante with FRED
I'm quite surprised about that number.
I just tried to pit 3 Solaris, 5 Karunas and 5 Narajanas against a Dante. And the UEF won with all three destroyers, 4 Karunas and one Narajana surviving on medium difficulty.
That is, after I replaced the Solarises torpedoes with Apocalypse#Narajana.... for some reason they just wouldn't fire their own torpedoes. Even when they were in range of their gattler turrets (which have less range) they didn't fire their Apocalypse#Solaris...

On a sidenote: In another attempt a Solaris repeatedly blew a Raynor away in about 1 minute without losing more than 30 seconds, but was also repeatedly wasted by two salvos from a Titan in direct "nose-to-nose" fights.

No armor, no ECM...tricky to translate straight results like that into in-universe terms.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 21, 2010, 07:58:41 pm
UEF missiles seem to hurt the Dante far more than GTVA beams. I guess that's all a matter of lacking scripts in my on-the-fly FRED experiment?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 21, 2010, 08:03:42 pm
The problem is, we're using armor classes A LOT to balance engagements. Meaning what you got there can be considered a "best case" result.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 22, 2010, 04:57:17 am
Not necessarily best case, since both the UEF and GTVA have some tricks up their sleeves as well. And unless the Shivans came up with something new in that regard since Capella and AoA, the terrans and vasudans also have way superiour fighters and bombers.
A "real" fleet clash wouldn't be capital ships only after all.

The Narayanas torpedoes outrange the SRed, so in a scripted battle they would stay back out of range of those (which they don't do when only ordered to attack), having to fear only the BFReds. I don't know the ranges of the blue beams, but I could imagine the same is likely to be true for the Bellerophons BBlue and possibly for the Chimeras MBlue.

Since the Shivans didn't encounter AWACS in battle before (in FS2, they were only used to boost sensors, not for electronic warfare - except the Hamakos jamming, but that was against NTF and only radio jamming), those could also be very usefull for at least a few minutes untill the Shivans adapt. And in such a battle a few minutes can make a lot of difference.

Also there was no player action involved. Don't forget Humanity has Laporte, Samuel Bei and possibly two Alpha 1!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 22, 2010, 08:05:39 am
They also have the HBlue, which is the only GTVA beam that out-ranges the BFRed. Ice cream cannon annihilates all. :drevil:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on September 22, 2010, 09:09:28 am
Humanity has Laporte, Samuel Bei and possibly two Alpha 1!

FS1 Alpha 1 would be really old by the time of the WiH events...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 22, 2010, 09:36:33 am
Humanity has Laporte, Samuel Bei and possibly two Alpha 1!

It could be three Alpha 1s if the one in ST is not Bosch himself.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on September 27, 2010, 03:06:37 am
The FS1 Alpha 1 if still present is probably at least a ship captain, probably a rear admiral or so.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 27, 2010, 04:16:49 am
Which wouldn't stop him from piloting a fighter if he feels like it.
But I don't think (FS1) Alpha 1 is part of the military. It's more likely that he's a Fedayeen (probably one of the first) or even an Elder. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he and the survivors of the Lucifer attack force (Humand and Vasudan) founded the Fedayeen in the first place.

I hope we will get more information and history on the Fedayeen with WiH 2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 27, 2010, 10:30:07 am
Perhaps the most poetic would be that FS1 Alpha died the way he lived, completely anonymous.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on September 27, 2010, 01:44:00 pm
Except that there's no way in hell the guy who blew up the Lucifer is going to die anonymously, right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scourge of Ages on September 27, 2010, 02:21:03 pm
Except that there's no way in hell the guy who blew up the Lucifer is going to die anonymously, right?
Maybe he just flies off into the sunset.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on September 27, 2010, 02:25:33 pm
...

There is no sunset in space. :doubt:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on September 27, 2010, 02:34:43 pm
...

There is no sunset in space. :doubt:


(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/407254main_image_1529_1600-1200.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on September 27, 2010, 07:01:45 pm
The FS1 Alpha 1 if still present is probably at least a ship captain, probably a rear admiral or so.
Well if he was going to do that, he'd actually have to change operational specializations. If he's still there, he's probably Chief of Air ops or sitting on some high up military council.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 27, 2010, 07:02:47 pm
All we know about him is that Martin Mandho visited him once.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on September 27, 2010, 07:15:06 pm
The FS1 Alpha 1 if still present is probably at least a ship captain, probably a rear admiral or so.

Not to mention that in 50 years, he'd be significantly higher than a ship captain or rear admiral.  People who are 50 years old are those things.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 27, 2010, 07:16:54 pm
All we know about him is that Martin Mandho visited him once.

There was, in fact, a very important meeting that people don't pay enough attention to.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 27, 2010, 10:50:39 pm
Well if he was going to do that, he'd actually have to change operational specializations. If he's still there, he's probably Chief of Air ops or sitting on some high up military council.

Giving a destroyer command to a former flight officer makes plenty of sense. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 28, 2010, 12:24:50 am
Well if he was going to do that, he'd actually have to change operational specializations. If he's still there, he's probably Chief of Air ops or sitting on some high up military council.

Giving a destroyer command to a former flight officer makes plenty of sense. :P

A flag command, but I wouldn't give him the ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 28, 2010, 04:35:28 am
That really depends on what he did in those 50 years. Steele started out as a fighter pilot too and switched to commanding capitol ships later on if I remember his resume correctly.
50 years are plenty of time to take command of a cruiser (probably Fenris or Leviathan, before they were decomissioned) and then work his way up the scales.
Though with the lack of destroyers in Sol, CO of a destroyer is a job that's rather hard to get I guess, unless the Fedayeen actually managed to have one without anyone knowing about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 28, 2010, 06:19:28 am
...

There is no sunset in space. :doubt:


(http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/407254main_image_1529_1600-1200.jpg)

Hah. :p

Also, one more image to add to my wallpaper queue (behind the LHC images I got last week).

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on September 28, 2010, 09:01:34 am
All we know about him is that Martin Mandho visited him once.

There was, in fact, a very important meeting that people don't pay enough attention to.

The ancient dialogues, I presume (since I believe you have them as visions)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nissan on September 28, 2010, 09:29:32 am
All we know about him is that Martin Mandho visited him once.

There was, in fact, a very important meeting that people don't pay enough attention to.

The ancient dialogues, I presume (since I believe you have them as visions)

No, he's talking about a mention of "one of the GTVA's most decorated pilots" in the BP prose. I'll quote it below...

Quote from: How did Ubuntu come to power?
In February 2345, Professor Martin Mandho, a major Restoration figure with former ties to the Galactic Terran Intelligence, went into closed retreat with certain spiritual figures popular in the Party.

Two months later, Mandho requested a meeting with one of the GTA’s most decorated pilots, as well as Vasudan survivors of the attack on the Lucifer.

Whatever happened in that meeting galvanized Mandho and the inner circle of the Restoration Project. Two years later, the Project declared itself the Ubuntu Party (taking on the name of an Afro-Asian populist political party that many of its founding members belonged to) and announced its intent to reestablish a system-wide government and take custody of mankind's future.

There's also this:

Quote from: Who are the Fedayeen?
They appear to date back to Martin Mandho’s 2345 conference with GTA flight corps veterans.

It is rumored that Vasudan survivors of the Lucifer attack are present amongst the Fedayeen.

In a society built on openness, transparence, and general nonviolence, the function of the Fedayeen is unclear and puzzling. The existence of the Fedayeen was a major aspect of the GTVA’s decision to go to war.

So while the most prominent in-game reference to the Fedayeen (aside from the ending) mentions the Vasudans, there's an implication here that Alpha 1 was also involved in the creation of the unit.

Having gone back to read it now, though, I'm more curious about how the Fedayeen were a major reason the GTVA went to war. One, it's surprising that the GTVA knew this unit existed if people within the UEF didn't even know for sure, and two, how is the existence of a black ops unit enough to spark a war of this magnitude?

I'm fixated on the fact that two of the people we know to be involved with the Fedayeen both were known to experience visions: Alpha 1, who in BP canon experienced the Ancient monologues as visions, and Noemi, who has Ken in her head. Not sure what to make of it though...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on September 28, 2010, 09:33:35 am
I'm fixated on the fact that two of the people we know to be involved with the Fedayeen both were known to experience visions: Alpha 1, who in BP canon experienced the Ancient monologues as visions, and Noemi, who has Ken in her head.
Spoiler:
And both Beis.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on September 28, 2010, 09:55:28 am
Spoiler:
That's too much NAGARI in one place. That can't be good.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 28, 2010, 11:41:16 am
Nobody is crossing the quantum streams, yet, are they?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on September 28, 2010, 01:01:24 pm
All we know about him is that Martin Mandho visited him once.

There was, in fact, a very important meeting that people don't pay enough attention to.

The ancient dialogues, I presume (since I believe you have them as visions)

No, he's talking about a mention of "one of the GTVA's most decorated pilots" in the BP prose. I'll quote it below...

Quote from: How did Ubuntu come to power?
In February 2345, Professor Martin Mandho, a major Restoration figure with former ties to the Galactic Terran Intelligence, went into closed retreat with certain spiritual figures popular in the Party.

Two months later, Mandho requested a meeting with one of the GTA’s most decorated pilots, as well as Vasudan survivors of the attack on the Lucifer.

Whatever happened in that meeting galvanized Mandho and the inner circle of the Restoration Project. Two years later, the Project declared itself the Ubuntu Party (taking on the name of an Afro-Asian populist political party that many of its founding members belonged to) and announced its intent to reestablish a system-wide government and take custody of mankind's future.

There's also this:

Quote from: Who are the Fedayeen?
They appear to date back to Martin Mandho’s 2345 conference with GTA flight corps veterans.

It is rumored that Vasudan survivors of the Lucifer attack are present amongst the Fedayeen.

In a society built on openness, transparence, and general nonviolence, the function of the Fedayeen is unclear and puzzling. The existence of the Fedayeen was a major aspect of the GTVA’s decision to go to war.

So while the most prominent in-game reference to the Fedayeen (aside from the ending) mentions the Vasudans, there's an implication here that Alpha 1 was also involved in the creation of the unit.

Having gone back to read it now, though, I'm more curious about how the Fedayeen were a major reason the GTVA went to war. One, it's surprising that the GTVA knew this unit existed if people within the UEF didn't even know for sure, and two, how is the existence of a black ops unit enough to spark a war of this magnitude?

I'm fixated on the fact that two of the people we know to be involved with the Fedayeen both were known to experience visions: Alpha 1, who in BP canon experienced the Ancient monologues as visions, and Noemi, who has Ken in her head. Not sure what to make of it though...

You misunderstand me, that's the exact thing I meant. And I'm fairly sure the main thing that the governments of Earth learned from that was about Alpha 1's visions of the Ancients, plus a whole lot of Vasudan mythology, and about the concept of Nagari
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on September 28, 2010, 02:04:18 pm
This tells me exactly why the Terrans went to war.  They didn't want to leave the future of Humanity(and possibly the Vasudans) in the hands of people who will rearrange all of society all the way down to individual psychological conditioning(this part is particularly distasteful) to further their ends, especially when said designs are spawned by visions and portents. 

What next, are you gonna have Noemi throw a container bones to make the final decision?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 28, 2010, 02:10:48 pm
This tells me exactly why the Terrans went to war.  They didn't want to leave the future of Humanity(and possibly the Vasudans) in the hands of people who will rearrange all of society all the way down to individual psychological conditioning(this part is particularly distasteful) to further their ends, especially when said designs are spawned by visions and portents. 

Now you're catchin' on.  ;7

Of course I doubt you'd be totally against Ubuntu. They're very free market, almost Objectivist in their focus on individual excellence and development, and big science-technology-and-exploration guys.

Also the 'individual psychological conditioning' is not much different from what any society does, just a bit more understood.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hero_Swe on September 28, 2010, 02:47:16 pm
You know, you'd think this was a professional venture, backed by funding and shareholders. But for something like this to simply come from a small group of people with a vision is simply amazing and a testament to willpower and faith. Simply amazing work guys and gals.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 28, 2010, 03:05:07 pm
This tells me exactly why the Terrans went to war.  They didn't want to leave the future of Humanity(and possibly the Vasudans) in the hands of people who will rearrange all of society all the way down to individual psychological conditioning(this part is particularly distasteful) to further their ends, especially when said designs are spawned by visions and portents. 

Now you're catchin' on.  ;7

Of course I doubt you'd be totally against Ubuntu. They're very free market, almost Objectivist in their focus on individual excellence and development, and big science-technology-and-exploration guys.

Also the 'individual psychological conditioning' is not much different from what any society does, just a bit more understood.
But how would the GTVA know that?
Not even UEF citizens know for sure wether the Fedayeen really exist. And even if they knew, they still wouldn't know why they were founded.
So how can the GTVA know? All the GTVA knew before the invasion was, what was readily available on the internet (or whatever succeded it) and what they could evasdrop with their spy drones.
And somehow I doubt the Fedyeen were able to keep their existance a secret by being sloppy with communications.
So how can they be a main reason for the GTVA to go to war, if the GTVA had no way of knowing anything other than rumors and hear-say?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 28, 2010, 03:27:22 pm
This tells me exactly why the Terrans went to war.  They didn't want to leave the future of Humanity(and possibly the Vasudans) in the hands of people who will rearrange all of society all the way down to individual psychological conditioning(this part is particularly distasteful) to further their ends, especially when said designs are spawned by visions and portents. 

Now you're catchin' on.  ;7

Of course I doubt you'd be totally against Ubuntu. They're very free market, almost Objectivist in their focus on individual excellence and development, and big science-technology-and-exploration guys.

Also the 'individual psychological conditioning' is not much different from what any society does, just a bit more understood.
But how would the GTVA know that?
Not even UEF citizens know for sure wether the Fedayeen really exist. And even if they knew, they still wouldn't know why they were founded.
So how can the GTVA know? All the GTVA knew before the invasion was, what was readily available on the internet (or whatever succeded it) and what they could evasdrop with their spy drones.
And somehow I doubt the Fedyeen were able to keep their existance a secret by being sloppy with communications.
So how can they be a main reason for the GTVA to go to war, if the GTVA had no way of knowing anything other than rumors and hear-say?

Interesting question, isn't it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 28, 2010, 04:10:23 pm
If there are persistent, wide-spread rumors about some ultra-top-secret organization, I'd say there was a better than 50% chance it exists.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Topgun on September 28, 2010, 04:12:19 pm
If there are persistent, wide-spread rumors about some ultra-top-secret organization, I'd say there was a better than 50% chance it exists.

the bilderberg group.
 :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 28, 2010, 04:31:09 pm
If there are persistent, wide-spread rumors about some ultra-top-secret organization, I'd say there was a better than 50% chance it exists.

the bilderberg group.
 :nervous:
Who?

My point is, if pretty much everyone in Sol has heard multiple, persistent rumors of the Fedayeen, chances are they exist.  Baseless rumors tend to lose widespread distribution after a while, and end up confined to the guys with tinfoil hats and end-of-the-world stashes of weapons and supplies in the desert.  And Nuke.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Topgun on September 28, 2010, 04:37:45 pm
If there are persistent, wide-spread rumors about some ultra-top-secret organization, I'd say there was a better than 50% chance it exists.

the bilderberg group.
 :nervous:
Who?

My point is, if pretty much everyone in Sol has heard multiple, persistent rumors of the Fedayeen, chances are they exist.  Baseless rumors tend to lose widespread distribution after a while, and end up confined to the guys with tinfoil hats and end-of-the-world stashes of weapons and supplies in the desert.  And Nuke.

Its an organization that many, many, conspiracy theorists believe are secretly influencing many of the world's governments.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 28, 2010, 05:47:32 pm
Its an organization that many, many, conspiracy theorists believe are secretly influencing many of the world's governments.

And it does exist, it's just there's nothing cool and Illumanti-like and government-controlling about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Topgun on September 28, 2010, 06:00:10 pm
Its an organization that many, many, conspiracy theorists believe are secretly influencing many of the world's governments.

And it does exist, it's just there's nothing cool and Illumanti-like and government-controlling about it.
That we have proof of....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 28, 2010, 07:56:01 pm
ignorantia beatitudo est. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 29, 2010, 04:03:46 am
Quote
If there are persistent, wide-spread rumors about some ultra-top-secret organization, I'd say there was a better than 50% chance it exists.
I just try to imagine the GTVA explaining this as the reason for the war to their citizens.
"Dear citizens.
We just reopened the Sol-Delta Serpentis jumpnode and our spyprobes have intercepted messages that hint at the existance of a secret black-ops group called the Fedayeen.
We don't know who they really are or what they want or even if they really exist, but since the rumors of their existance are so widespread there is a 50% chance that they really do exist.
Because of that, and some other minor reasons - like our continued survival in the face of the shivan threat or our current socio-political system being on the brink of collapse - we decided to go to war with them.
But the main reason for the war, as stated before, is the possible existance of a black-ops group we know nothing about and aren't even sure exists"

Don't get me wrong, what you say is often right (though not always), but maybe the people of the UEF just enjoy conspiracy theories more than we do now, because they had no real and tangible conflics and conspiracies to occupy their attention (except the one against the GEF) before the GTVA came in guns blazing.

Either way a 50% chance of them even existing can't be enough for it to be the GTVAs main reason for the war. So either is isn't the main reason at all, or the tevs have more information than they should have been able to get.
But since noone outside of the Fedayeen and the Elders even knows for sure they exist, I can only imagine three theories:
1) The GEFs fed the GTVA some made up "information" about the Fedayeen which the GTVA believed (extremely unlikely, since there was supposed to be no contact what-so-ever before the decition to go to war - besides, why should the GTVA believe terrorists in the first place).
2) A turncoat within the Fedayeen who detected the GTVAs spying and decided to join them.
3) The Fedayeen deliberately leaked information to the GTVA to further some shadowy plan of theirs. This might be the Vishnans testing Humanty, but not wanting their involvment being detectable, so they use their Human agents (and then go silent, either as part of the test, or because Humanity failed it).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on September 29, 2010, 04:56:41 am
If you ask me it sounds much more reasonable a war declaration than "THERE..........ARE..........FOUR.... WMDS" that no one actually believes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 29, 2010, 05:42:29 am
I'm certain the GTVA knows about the Fedayeen. They probably just don't know what the Fedayeen can do. Granted, the way Bei Wen Jian puts it at the end of Sunglare makes me feel that the Fedayeen aren't probably as invincibly boring as the GTVA's SOC, but they must be pretty formidable if they are kept at near the same level of secrecy as the SOC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 29, 2010, 06:14:31 am
Nearly the same level of secrecy?
Is there a single person in the whole GTVA who doubts the existance of the SOC? While they do covert missions, they are an official branch of the GTVA.

The Fedayeen on the other hand are known only to themselfs and the Elders.
I'd say the Fedayeen are even more secretive than the SOC or GTI/GTVI with the exception of the guys from the Hades rebellion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nissan on September 29, 2010, 09:47:31 am
I'm certain the GTVA knows about the Fedayeen. They probably just don't know what the Fedayeen can do.
This is what I'm curious about. Regardless of how the GTVA found out about the Fedayeen, we know that they knew of the Fedayeen's existence before the war began. It's just strange that the UEF's elite paramilitary force, of all things, is listed as a "primary" reason for going to war, since the GTVA's main stated reason is that the UEF is incapable of defending itself from the Shivans.

What if the "you're doomed when the Shivans show up" thing is just a front put on by the GTVA to cover up something bigger?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 29, 2010, 10:48:36 am
What if the "you're doomed when the Shivans show up" thing is just a front put on by the GTVA to cover up something bigger?

Laurence Fishburne!?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on September 29, 2010, 11:46:18 am

Space-Orkz?
A retrofitted Colossus?
Shivans on a plane?


Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 29, 2010, 01:33:28 pm
GTVA is probably just trying to cover up the fact that they are incompetent enough to think half a dozen Raynors and some Meson Bombs will be enough to stop the next Shivan Incursion.

inb4yousaidthatalready
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on September 29, 2010, 03:22:53 pm
why does the GTVA need a reason beyond "Earth has fallen under the influence of a bunch of radical non-elected idealouges forcing their own agenda on the populace, even going as far as to psychologically brainwash them, and we need to liberate/free them from that tyranny" to sell the war to GTVA citizens?  It's true on all counts, just heavily slanted to a particular viewpoint.

The actual driving factors for the war, imminent collapse of the GTVA economy etc..., don't need to be said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on September 29, 2010, 04:14:21 pm
Because they are happy, brainwashed or not. And some of them have guns, and they see an army marching in guns blazing; preaching 'freedom', yes, but guns blazing anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on September 29, 2010, 04:23:04 pm
Because they are happy, brainwashed or not. And some of them have guns, and they see an army marching in guns blazing; preaching 'freedom', yes, but guns blazing anyway.

last I checked the GTVA citizens are definitely not happy and are not in contact with UEF citizens, everything they get is through high command. 

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 29, 2010, 05:10:22 pm
This tells me exactly why the Terrans went to war.  They didn't want to leave the future of Humanity(and possibly the Vasudans) in the hands of people who will rearrange all of society all the way down to individual psychological conditioning(this part is particularly distasteful) to further their ends, especially when said designs are spawned by visions and portents.  

Now you're catchin' on.  ;7

Of course I doubt you'd be totally against Ubuntu. They're very free market, almost Objectivist in their focus on individual excellence and development, and big science-technology-and-exploration guys.

Also the 'individual psychological conditioning' is not much different from what any society does, just a bit more understood.
But how would the GTVA know that?
Not even UEF citizens know for sure wether the Fedayeen really exist. And even if they knew, they still wouldn't know why they were founded.
So how can the GTVA know? All the GTVA knew before the invasion was, what was readily available on the internet (or whatever succeded it) and what they could evasdrop with their spy drones.
And somehow I doubt the Fedyeen were able to keep their existance a secret by being sloppy with communications.
So how can they be a main reason for the GTVA to go to war, if the GTVA had no way of knowing anything other than rumors and hear-say?

Back on this, I think the Feyadeen (and possibly the elders) are pulling the ropes there. They may have an actual reason for having this war, something to do with the secret project going on. And so the Feyadeen probably lets the GTVA know only as much as the Feyadeen wants the GTVA to know: enough to provoke an attempted blitzkrieg invasion by the GTVA in Sol. Apparantly something is so important that it is worth the number of casualties and not unlikely the loss of Earth itself. If that is so, the Feyadeen  and the elders seem to invest their trust in the people of Sol, believing whatever social or religious transformation Sol went through has reached a point where the Solarians are ready to face the contents of the Pandora's Box that opened. The big question mark for me is what their greater plan is, but it seems to dictate such a different fate to humankind that it scared the hell out of the GTVA, possible related to the mentioned Contingency MORPHEUS:

Quote
Morpheus (pronounced /ˈmɔrfiəs/ or /ˈmɔrfjuːs/; Greek: Μορφεύς, Morpheus, or Μορφέας, Morpheas, "shaper [of dreams]") in Greek mythology is the god of dreams, leader of the Oneiroi. Morpheus has the ability to take any human form and appear in dreams. His true semblance is that of a winged daemon, imagery shared with many of his siblings.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 29, 2010, 05:48:32 pm
I was speculating pretty much that point as well in the post I wrote after the one you quoted  ;)
I didn't elaborate much on it, just tossed in the idea, though I think if this is the case, the Vishnans are likely to have a hand (or whatever they have) in it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on September 29, 2010, 05:58:50 pm
Whoops! Skimmed only over the rest of that page when people started going off-topic about today's conspiracy theories. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 30, 2010, 01:34:13 am
It's just strange that the UEF's elite paramilitary force, of all things, is listed as a "primary" reason for going to war, since the GTVA's main stated reason is that the UEF is incapable of defending itself from the Shivans.

Is it possible that their findings on the Fedayeen suggest a faction that may see reason to not stand up to the Shivans (a la HoL)?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 30, 2010, 03:28:47 am
I'm not quite sure what you mean.
First off who are "they".
Your post sounds as if "they" are the GTVA. But why would the invasion in Sol, which was at least partially done to preserve the ability to defend against the Shivans, hint at the existence of a pro Shivan faction within the GTVA?

Or do you mean the GTVA fears the Fedayeen might be pro Shivan?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on September 30, 2010, 06:23:43 am
Or do you mean the GTVA fears the Fedayeen might be pro Shivan?

This.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 01, 2010, 01:45:39 am
Why in God's Name would they be pro shivan?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on October 01, 2010, 02:02:07 am
Why in God's Name would they be pro shivan?
Because they think the Shivans are destroyers of those that destroy? Thus the Shivans would save the UEF (and possibly the Vasudans) from the GTA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on October 01, 2010, 03:05:28 am
I expect exactly this. Shivans fighting for ya. And you are full of joy 'cause BAM! getsome, damn TEVs! And then in the end - shazam! - twist and you are a pilot on the GTVAs side and you feel absolutely helpless, because this time the Shivans finish the job and there's nothing you can do but go to the UEF or die by the hand of the great destroyers. All hail to the shivans! :eek:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on October 01, 2010, 05:02:01 am
I... honestly don't think the Shivans will be defending anyone. That's not how they do things; defending is preserving.

They are like us. They destroy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 01, 2010, 05:20:42 am
The. Shivans. KILL. everything.

This is their defining characteristic, they are merciless and without consideration for anything.  Being pro Shivan is akin to killing your familiy and then yourself.  They cannot be "made friends with".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on October 01, 2010, 05:23:20 am
Not friends but: "We have business to do with those GTVA... just don't get in our way and you won't get hurt." ... but probably because the UEF are terrans, too, the shivans will wipe them out aswell... just to get sure :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 01, 2010, 07:15:43 am
The. Shivans. KILL. everything.

The Ancients and Bosch didn't think so. But they might have been wrong.

Bear in mind, though, that FreeSpace 2 was almost entirely about one man's quest to make an alliance with the Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on October 01, 2010, 10:18:53 am
And how did that turn out for the guys that went with him? :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 01, 2010, 11:16:17 am
And how did that turn out for the guys that went with him? :p

We don't know, but it's tangential to the falsified assertion that the Shivans KILL EVERYTHING (assuming immediate values of kill).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 01, 2010, 12:19:41 pm
The. Shivans. KILL. everything.

The Ancients and Bosch didn't think so. But they might have been wrong.
The Ancients home planet and all their colonies were burned.  Bosch's quest led to the death of 99% of his crew and a civil war that led to God knows how many other deaths.  He's not a visionary, he's a mass murderer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on October 01, 2010, 12:20:34 pm
YAY ALTERNATE CHARACTER INTERPRETATION!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 01, 2010, 12:30:47 pm
The. Shivans. KILL. everything.

The Ancients and Bosch didn't think so. But they might have been wrong.
The Ancients home planet and all their colonies were burned.  Bosch's quest led to the death of 99% of his crew and a civil war that led to God knows how many other deaths.  He's not a visionary, he's a mass murderer.

That has nothing to do with what we're talking about. The Ancients believed the Shivans only killed sinners; Bosch believed - no matter whether he was a mass murderer or not - that the Shivans could be allied with.

That's all that's relevant to the question of whether the Shivans KILL EVERYTHING; some parties disagree.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 03, 2010, 05:35:13 am
[...]  Bosch's quest led to the death of 99% of his crew and a civil war that led to God knows how many other deaths.  He's not a visionary, he's a mass murderer.
History has a way of ignoring unpleasant aspects of important leaders. There are plenty of examples in real history.

If it turns out that Bosch's actions saved Humanity from destruction then he will be considered a hero (or course only if Mankind ever learns about it - not if the Shivans simply stay away). If the Shivans continue to attack the GTVA then history will remember him as a deluded wannabe messias and mass murderer.
The perverse thing is, if he really saved Humanity, then the hundred thousands of death' he caused will have saved billions thus giving those death' meaning in a way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on October 03, 2010, 11:28:05 am
Yeah.  'Cuz we really want to get into an "Ends justify the means" argument here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 03, 2010, 04:33:19 pm
You're right we don't and I wasn't suggesting that, just mentioning how history likes to gloss over everthing in a nice sheen if it's a few centuries in the past.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Useful Dave on October 04, 2010, 03:57:57 pm
I've not been on for abit, but here's two things I've been sitting on trying to figure out for awhile, someone might've got there first though.

A: The UEF Alarm klaxon. Why does it revert to the GTVA one (as seen in AoA) rather than that used by the Renjian at the end of AoA?

B: In Delenda Est, if I remember correctly the Carthage 'snags on Jupiters gravity well', pulling it out of subspace. If it is incapable of re-entering, why are it's escorts capable of jumping out alongside it while the other ships have to climb free?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 04, 2010, 04:01:09 pm
I've not been on for abit, but here's two things I've been sitting on trying to figure out for awhile, someone might've got there first though.

A: The UEF Alarm klaxon. Why does it revert to the GTVA one (as seen in AoA) rather than that used by the Renjian at the end of AoA?

Many of the War in Heaven missions were finished before the AoA Director's Cut was polished up and shipped out. That alarm siren was a late touch in AoA, and we never got around to putting it in WiH. It was meant as more of a 'pay attention to this message!' sound than anything else. But making consistency there would be a nice touch for a re-release.

Quote
B: In Delenda Est, if I remember correctly the Carthage 'snags on Jupiters gravity well', pulling it out of subspace. If it is incapable of re-entering, why are it's escorts capable of jumping out alongside it while the other ships have to climb free?

The Carthage only escaped the Antenor ambush by using its sprint drive (similar to, but inferior to, the Atreus's model.) It had no charged and plotted subspace jumps during Delenda Est; it was working on getting its drives back into any usable shape (think of them as exhausted after a series of strenuous jumps). Its escorts, on the other hand, were faring better in that regard.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 05, 2010, 03:30:04 am
Many of the War in Heaven missions were finished before the AoA Director's Cut was polished up and shipped out. That alarm siren was a late touch in AoA, and we never got around to putting it in WiH. It was meant as more of a 'pay attention to this message!' sound than anything else. But making consistency there would be a nice touch for a re-release.

If you do, I hope you tone down the volume quite a bit. Because the Renjians alarm really hurts my ears the way it is now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on October 05, 2010, 06:13:13 am
The UEF klaxon doesn't work as well by itself as it did with voices, but it should make a return in the voice-acted version of War :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on October 07, 2010, 01:59:56 pm
The UEF klaxon doesn't work as well by itself as it did with voices, but it should make a return in the voice-acted version of War :)

Awesome :D

Also - I may have just stolen your highscore for "Fight Theme - AIM" on the elite scoreboard of Audiosurf
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: reavens on October 09, 2010, 05:12:29 am
ERANGE: String error. Please Report.
Trying to put into 32 byte buffer:
ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿy   $
<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

 :hopping:

always show this message when i firing missle.... :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 09, 2010, 05:56:45 am
Please read the FSO FAQ (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.0) and post an fs2_open.log.

In addition, please read the BP release post (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70745.0), and make sure you followed the install instructions correctly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 07:42:45 am
ERANGE: String error. Please Report.
Trying to put into 32 byte buffer:
ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿy   $
<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

 :hopping:

always show this message when i firing missle.... :confused:

Is your pilot name extremely long?  :nervous: And yeah, do what The_E said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on October 09, 2010, 12:38:10 pm
Does Steele use games theory ?
I felt BP WiH was very realistic, and I found why : it seems that Steele behave like a good poker player !

It became particularly easy to see in Delenda Est : Steele could crush the Indus and Yangze easily, but he damages them just enough (engaging 2 Deimos class cruisers in the fight, which cumulated firepower is just under the UEF 3 cruisers firepower). In the same time he refuses to surrender, forcing the UEF to push farther its assault on the Carthage, AND to engage 3 more cruisers !

replace poker tokens with human lifes and tons of metal : a player can still be back in the game while he has some tokens, so you have to take as many of them as you can in order to get a clear victory.
What Steele makes is not just a simple trap, he creates a new strategic way for the GTVA :
1) GTVA can't attack the earth directly, too many people could die, both from UEF and GTVA, that makes the public opinion for the two factions unstable, so as the end of the war ;
2) The offensive "guerrilla style" methods of the Wargods cans only be responded by a counter guerrilla tactics... leading to a long war, many deaths in a long time, without influence on opinions ;
3) Steele's strategy, easing UEF self confidence gain, is a way to make the UEF elite corps to put all its "tokens" in the same time is the very smart thing to do !

I'm trying to make a "gain matrix" which sum up what i think, but it's harder than for real conflicts since i haven't information like media influence in GTVA and UEF, death/month ratio for each faction and some other stuff we use to modelise real conflicts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

And yeah, I study strategics at university, and i could not help myself.  :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 12:44:56 pm
Does Steele use games theory ?
I felt BP WiH was very realistic, and I found why : it seems that Steele behave like a good poker player !

I become particularly easy to see in Delenda Est : Steele could crush the Indus and Yangze easily, but he damages them just enough (engaging 2 Deimos class cruisers in the fight, which cumulated firepower is just under the UEF 3 cruisers firepower). In the same time he refuses to surrender, forcing the UEF to push farther its assault on the Carthage, AND to engage 3 more cruisers !

replace poker tokens with human lifes and tons of metal : a player can still be back in the game while he has some tokens, so you have to take as many of them as you can in order to get a clear victory.
What Steele makes is not just a simple trap, he creates a new strategic way for the GTVA :
1) GTVA can't attack the earth directly, too many people could die, both from UEF and GTVA, that makes the public opinion for the two factions unstable, so as the end of the war ;
2) The offensive "guerrilla style" methods of the Wargods cans only be responded by a counter guerrilla tactics... leading to a long war, many deaths in a long time, without influence on opinions ;
3) Steele's strategy, easing UEF self confidence gain, is a way to make the UEF elite corps to put all its "tokens" in the same time is the very smart thing to do !

I'm trying to make a "gain matrix" which sum up what i think, but it's harder than for real conflicts since i haven't information like media influence in GTVA and UEF, death/month ratio for each faction and some other stuff we use to modelise real conflicts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_theory

And yeah, I study strategics at university, and i could not help myself.  :)

You may well be better at this than me, but I can confirm that this is exactly what Steele was trying to do. The Carthage was meant to be a target too good to pass up, but also threatening enough that the Wargods would have no choice but to go all in after it - putting all their assets in one place.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 09, 2010, 08:30:22 pm
Just finished...
It seems the Earth government sees every planet except for Earth as expendable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 09, 2010, 09:54:54 pm
The Earth G'Ment are a bunch of hippies who are running the government by smoking weed, listening to certifiably crazy people and rolling bones to make decisions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 09:56:04 pm
The Earth G'Ment are a bunch of hippies who are running the government by smoking weed, listening to certifiably crazy people and rolling bones to make decisions.

Sometimes I wonder why we bother writing all this stuff if people aren't gonna read it. *sigh* Read the techroom.

Shape up or ship out, you're doing a disrespect to those of us who worked on it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 09, 2010, 10:27:42 pm
I believe he was joking.

And Hellzed, well, all warfare is based on deception; he may well have studied game theory during his studies in strategy as a staff officer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 10:29:24 pm
I believe he was joking.

crunchy poeslaw
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 09, 2010, 11:08:22 pm
I've read it Batt, that's just how I interpreted it.  The Navari project is all about finding people who can tap into whatever it was that FS1 Alpha 1, The Beis and a couple of Vasudans have that allowed them to receive communication from further up the "food chain".  Given that the visions this conduit induces drove The Joker bat**** insane and pushed Sam to the point where he was willing to commit suicide(though it turned out for the better) and that there are intermissions where the Elders are talking back and forth about not being able to "hear them anymore".  I'm firmly in the camp of the Ubuntu leadership being drugged up Hippies who are just slightly not as far around the bend as the people they are trying desperately to find.

BTW, auditory and visual hallucinations are a firm sign that you are insane or on the way there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2010, 11:09:56 pm
Well that's all true, but bear in mind that Nagari was a GTI project, not UEF.

But the Council of Elders is not the entire Federation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 09, 2010, 11:19:36 pm
Perhaps not, but from how it's been presented, the Federation pretty much falls lockstep behind them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 10, 2010, 12:32:07 am
It feels like the Elders focus pretty much on long term effects only, ignoring any short term effects their decisions might have, which undeniably causes some people to suffer.
It's hard to believe that only 2nd and 3rd fleet admirals out of all the people in Sol they're slightly insane.

I haven't read all the backstory (the detail is amazing in my opinion), but that's pretty much what I've gotten from playing the campaign.

I definitely understand why you keep saying there's no moral high ground.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 10, 2010, 10:55:35 am
Sometimes I wonder why we bother writing all this stuff if people aren't gonna read it. *sigh* Read the techroom.
I certianly enjoyed reading all the proses, even before WiH1 came out :yes:

Just finished...
It seems the Earth government sees every planet except for Earth as expendable.
No they don't.
Spoiler:
But they beliefe very strongly (and correctly, as Steels blitz attack showed) that the GTVA is first and foremost after Earth. Since Admiral Byrne believes Earth is going to be attacked again soon, he concentrats all of his assets around the Blue Planet to be as prepared as possible for the coming storm and hope they can last long enough for the secret project to turn the tides.
While the other Admirals don't necessarily beliefe otherwise, they think sitting and waiting for the Tevs to attack them is suicide and declared authonomy from Byrne in order to go on the offensive against the invaders.
They do this mostly to gain time. Wether it's time for the secret project, or trying to draw the war out beyond the GTVAs ability or willingness to continue, or even time for developing their own beamweapons I can't tell for sure though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on October 10, 2010, 11:28:24 am
Quote from: Norbert
or even time for developing their own beamweapons I can't tell for sure though.
Having beam weapons of their own would level the playing field but I doubt it would give them enough of an edge to win over the GTVA

So whatever it is they are planning, it had better be something more grand :o
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 10, 2010, 12:22:21 pm
Perhaps not, but from how it's been presented, the Federation pretty much falls lockstep behind them.

Lib has a point. The team has talked a lot about the various factions in the UEF and soforth, but they haven't actually presented a government with serious divisions. It may be a point of view issue, but...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 10, 2010, 01:51:37 pm
Perhaps not, but from how it's been presented, the Federation pretty much falls lockstep behind them.

Lib has a point. The team has talked a lot about the various factions in the UEF and soforth, but they haven't actually presented a government with serious divisions. It may be a point of view issue, but...

Play the campaign, pay attention in m10. From the standpoint of a boots-in-the-place-where-boots-go-on-a-fighter military campaign, that's the kind of stuff you're gonna see. Bear in mind that Calder no longer has a government to answer to, but Netreba is definitely in dialogue with some civilian authorities. Also see some more resolution on the admiral/elder connectivity in the briefing for m13.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on October 10, 2010, 08:20:24 pm
So whatever it is they are planning, it had better be something more grand :o

Cap ship shields! AKA invulnerability flags! I think that would win a war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on October 10, 2010, 08:40:28 pm
So whatever it is they are planning, it had better be something more grand :o

Cap ship shields! AKA invulnerability flags! I think that would win a war.
'cept for the fact that beams pierce shields in the BP universe (at least, I remember reading Battuta say that on several occasions).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on October 10, 2010, 08:42:45 pm
They do. But remember that the lucifer cap-ship shields took the form of an invulnerability flag. Beams don't do anything against SEXPs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on October 10, 2010, 08:52:19 pm
That's because there are no beams in FS1!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on October 10, 2010, 08:53:47 pm
When there are beams, there is no invulnerable flag and a self-destruct SEXP triggers when the reactors are destroyed. :P (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Fallen_Angel)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 11, 2010, 03:18:23 am
Considering that the Lucifer could be damaged by every weapon in that mission, I always assumed that the beams overloaded (and thus shut down) the shields rather than piercing them.
Either that or the Vishnan weapons go through the Lucifers shields too.

Quote
That's because there are no beams in FS1!
Technically correct, but not canonically. But since the only ship with "beams" was the Lucifer itself that isn't much of an argument I guess :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 12, 2010, 06:35:57 pm
So what's with the nearly all-female lead cast and all the lesbian undertones?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Infamus on October 12, 2010, 06:42:32 pm
Here is my theory on the Lucy's shields:

They are actually a inverse version of the containment field used to stabilize the powerhouse of the Lucy's flux weapons, and that's why they are so powerful. But they are built to handle erratic, indirect energies, but beam cannons are direct and focused as are both other newer Terran weapons and especially Vishnan weapons making them effective at piercing the Lucy's shields. Unfortunately FSOpen doesn't have shield type coding yet so we just have to turn the invun off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 12, 2010, 06:46:54 pm
So what's with the nearly all-female lead cast and all the lesbian undertones?

I'm trying to figure out if this was meant for the Wings of Dawn forum.  :nervous:

The lead cast is actually split almost evenly. Brie, Kassim, Olefumi and Levi are male. Simms, Laporte and Karen are female.

This balance worked out pretty much accidentally.

When you get into secondary characters the cast is overwhelmingly skewed male, presumably because we are sexist pigs.

There are lesbian vibes because the story involves two women who are attracted to each other (though not necessarily lesbians.) This also worked out accidentally, though in the setting it doesn't really make a difference.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 12, 2010, 07:00:18 pm
Quote
When you get into secondary characters the cast is overwhelmingly skewed male, presumably because we are sexist pigs.
Let's just say it's a combination of the player base being mostly male, militaries today being predominately male and - the most important point -  that it's easier to get male roles voice acted ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 12, 2010, 07:02:52 pm
So what's with the nearly all-female lead cast and all the lesbian undertones?

The lead cast is actually split almost evenly. Brie, Kassim, Olefumi and Levi are male. Simms, Laporte and Karen are female.

<snip>

There are lesbian vibes because the story involves two women who are attracted to each other (though not necessarily lesbians.) This also worked out accidentally, though in the setting it doesn't really make a difference.

In the first mission Laporte says she doesn't want any "floozies" (when Kessim wants to set her up) so it's pretty clear that she's a lesbian or at least bisexual as floozie is term reserved for women. I'm not sure who Olefumi and Levi are, maybe they've not been introduced or I haven't noticed them.

Spoiler:
But at the point I'm at in the campaign (escorting the captured logistic ship past the gate blockade) the three main characters are all female and all of the male leads have dropped out of the war due to inability/weakness (Kessim and Brie). So it's not just about the ratio of female to male, it's also about how the men are weak and the women are not. Also I've noticed the command or flightops person is typically female as well.

Not that I mind a female lead, I encourage it, I did after all use a female lead in my own partial campaign. But for me personally the lesbian subplot distracts/detracts from the story.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on October 12, 2010, 07:08:09 pm
Unfortunately FSOpen doesn't have shield type coding yet
Yes it does (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ships.tbl#.24Shield_Armor_Type:).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 12, 2010, 07:10:53 pm
I'm afraid that may end up being a negative part of your experience, then. Sorry.

As for the gender balance, fortunes of war; no particular intentionality to it. Laporte was originally a male character, and when it became apparent he had to be a she for the story to work it may have created the appearance of a skew.

It's not a setting where it particularly matters, and the Indus tactical officer is female largely because it'll create a bigger voice contrast with the Indus' captain, who is male. Similarly for the Yangzte which has a female captain and a male tactical officer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 12, 2010, 07:18:22 pm
I'm afraid that may end up being a negative part of your experience, then. Sorry.

As for the gender balance, fortunes of war; no particular intentionality to it. Laporte was originally a male character, and when it became apparent he had to be a she for the story to work it may have created the appearance of a skew.

There's no need to apologize. Can't please everyone all the time.
Was just wondering what the deal was. If Laporte was originally a man and was changed to a female it would account for what seems to be somewhat feminist leanings.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 12, 2010, 07:27:07 pm
Whatever desire there was to put tough female characters into the setting was probably born more out of a certain fondness for Ellen Ripley than anything else.

That and the fact that the themes re: the psychology of violence and the talent for killing showing up in unexpected places work better with a female lead because women are stereotypically gentler, which makes her arc a little more pronounced as her starting point is easier to believe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 13, 2010, 05:37:47 am
@Akalabeth Angel
Out of curiosity, why do you think it distracts/detracts from the story?
I thought it made it more interesting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 13, 2010, 09:21:34 am
Always interesting again to see how people view the same-sex tension in this story. It seems to really draw parallels with television criticism of the past decades where for example sci-fi series boldly introduced the first black (and later female) starship captains. Some people seem not to care or take much notice, either accepting or tolerating the setting. Yet others find it out-of-place and distracting, or actually seem to find it amusing or interesting. Guessing it largely comes down to if the person views a same-sex romance as a taboo, nothing different and everything in between.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 13, 2010, 09:53:14 am
I think even if you are tolerant and accepting of that sort of stuff, it's easy to find yourself in a bit of an awkward position when you're sat as Laporte flirting with your same-sex superior officer. It's not something I'd find awkward in the slightest if I was sat on the train reading this in a book, but to actually play as the character and have that sense of 'involvement', I guess you could call it, has the potential to leave you sitting there feeling something between 'Well, this is new, interesting, and totally fits in with who I saw Laporte as in this new-age society' and 'Um, this is a little weird. You're my Squadron OC and the Frigate CAG, and my character is flirting with you. mmkay.'

Either way, it's something I envisage you get more accustomed to with exposure. I didn't find it so detrimental to the story, but during testing I felt like it hit me from left field the first time I played.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 13, 2010, 09:57:00 am
Well, remember, there's no use pretending there aren't a lot of chain-of-command romances IRL. How things are supposed to work in the regs is one thing, reality is quite another.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 13, 2010, 12:51:38 pm
@Akalabeth Angel
Out of curiosity, why do you think it distracts/detracts from the story?
I thought it made it more interesting.

Because a bunch of geeky gamer guys writing about a lesbian romance is not something that I can take seriously. I rate it just above anime or sonic fans drawing their favourite characters in questionable situations. 

If you look at a show like the L-Word, a now long-running series about lesbians in relationships it's created and written primarily by women, there's a reason for that. People write about what they know.

Most (or all) guys don't understand women, and I suspect they understand lesbians relationships even less. Because in most media, like everything out of hollywood, lesbian is equated to simply hot girls kissing but I suspect that's for the most part inaccurate and in more ways than one.

That being said, I appreciate the effort on the part of the team, trying to characterize a romance between any characters is not exactly easy (just ask George Lucas). And what I've read so far has been fairly mature/respectful in it's execution. But it simply turns me off.

Or I could be wrong and maybe there's some mystery gamer woman on the team doing most of the writing but I suspect that's not the case.

(PS - I'm a geeky gamer guy too in case that wasn't clear)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 13, 2010, 12:58:54 pm
@Akalabeth Angel
Out of curiosity, why do you think it distracts/detracts from the story?
I thought it made it more interesting.

Because a bunch of geeky gamer guys writing about a lesbian romance is not something that I can take seriously. I rate it just above anime or sonic fans drawing their favourite characters in questionable situations.  

A great deal of the Simms-Laporte stuff was written by a not-entirely-straight woman. Rian's on the BP team.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 13, 2010, 01:07:20 pm
@Akalabeth Angel
Out of curiosity, why do you think it distracts/detracts from the story?
I thought it made it more interesting.

Because a bunch of geeky gamer guys writing about a lesbian romance is not something that I can take seriously. I rate it just above anime or sonic fans drawing their favourite characters in questionable situations.  

A great deal of the Simms-Laporte stuff was written by a not-entirely-straight woman. Rian's on the BP team.

Oh are there actually women on the team? I checked the release page but there weren't any credits. With that in mind I might be able to take the relationship a bit more seriously.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 13, 2010, 01:08:23 pm
@Akalabeth Angel
Out of curiosity, why do you think it distracts/detracts from the story?
I thought it made it more interesting.

Because a bunch of geeky gamer guys writing about a lesbian romance is not something that I can take seriously. I rate it just above anime or sonic fans drawing their favourite characters in questionable situations.  

A great deal of the Simms-Laporte stuff was written by a not-entirely-straight woman. Rian's on the BP team.

Oh are there actually women on the team? I checked the release page but there weren't any credits. With that in mind I might be able to take the relationship a bit more seriously.

Credits are located in-game in the techroom's 'credits' tab. And I think The_E just pinned a thread in the forum as well for ease of access.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 13, 2010, 01:10:59 pm
Oh are there actually women on the team? I checked the release page but there weren't any credits. With that in mind I might be able to take the relationship a bit more seriously.

Credits are located in-game in the techroom's 'credits' tab. And I think The_E just pinned a thread in the forum as well for ease of access.

Okay. You're going to hate me for saying so but I haven't even been in the techroom yet :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 13, 2010, 01:12:15 pm
Oh are there actually women on the team? I checked the release page but there weren't any credits. With that in mind I might be able to take the relationship a bit more seriously.

Credits are located in-game in the techroom's 'credits' tab. And I think The_E just pinned a thread in the forum as well for ease of access.

Okay. You're going to hate me for saying so but I haven't even been in the techroom yet :D

It's all good. The story should always come first; the techroom exists to provide non-critical story info and to answer any lingering questions the player may have.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on October 13, 2010, 01:19:01 pm
Oh are there actually women on the team? I checked the release page but there weren't any credits. With that in mind I might be able to take the relationship a bit more seriously.
Eh? So whoever writes or contributes to the writing has more meaning to you than the writing itself? I believe you should be able to judge what you see and hear regardless of who has written it.

not-entirely-straight
Are you sure you should be divulging such personal details on an internet forum, or anywhere for that matter? I don't know about her, but I wouldn't be pleased.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on October 13, 2010, 01:40:11 pm
I think, by now, Battuta might have some clue as to what is and is not okay with Rian... at least I hope so.
You know they're engaged, right?:nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 13, 2010, 01:43:38 pm
not-entirely-straight
Are you sure you should be divulging such personal details on an internet forum, or anywhere for that matter? I don't know about her, but I wouldn't be pleased.

Agreed, that's rather personal stuff. Even if she openly flaunts her sexual preference, even then it's up to her, unless you know her that well that she's fine with that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 13, 2010, 01:48:20 pm
Well, we live together, so if she's fine with it that's cool and if not I'll hear about it pretty soon.  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 13, 2010, 02:21:52 pm
Oh are there actually women on the team? I checked the release page but there weren't any credits. With that in mind I might be able to take the relationship a bit more seriously.
Eh? So whoever writes or contributes to the writing has more meaning to you than the writing itself? I believe you should be able to judge what you see and hear regardless of who has written it.

As I said in my original post, I had found the writing fairly mature and respectful up to the point I was in the story. It's not the writing that puts me off, it's the concept in general. Games are not known for realistic, developed female characters (or male characters for that matter). And both games and movies throw in hot babes or lesbians just for the sake of shock/controversy or a cheap gimmick to appeal to guys. So when a team that was incorrectly presumed to be all male writes a lesbian romance the concept can come across as pretty contrived. But having a woman writer, write a woman's role, brings more legitimacy to the work especially in the medium of games, where as I said women tend to be very dumbed down and one-dimensional characters.

Not only that, but I work in television, albeit not as a writer. Still it's pretty easy to see where stories are going and to recognize when stories fall into formula or throw gimmicks in for no particular reason. If a person approaches a story and a concept is introduced that they create pre-conceptions about, those pre-conceptions can colour the remainder of that thread of the story. And in a case like this, if those pre-conceptions are dispelled, it can allow the viewer (ie me) to have a more open mind about the purpose of that thread.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 13, 2010, 06:12:41 pm
Well, we live together, so if she's fine with it that's cool and if not I'll hear about it pretty soon.  :nervous:

It's okay, if Ally is anything to go by Rian won't kill you.

...much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 14, 2010, 04:29:39 am
Well, remember, there's no use pretending there aren't a lot of chain-of-command romances IRL. How things are supposed to work in the regs is one thing, reality is quite another.
That's perfectly true, but flirting with a superior officer/Squadron OC is something I personally find to be quite awkward. Probably because my perception of the Squadron OC is tarnished by my earlier experiences. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 14, 2010, 08:23:03 pm
Well, remember, there's no use pretending there aren't a lot of chain-of-command romances IRL. How things are supposed to work in the regs is one thing, reality is quite another.
I think you are overestimating on this.  It's off topic, but the various militaries spend YEARS training and conditioning they're personnel on this stuff.  While I have no hard numbers, I would suspect that romances between officers are probably less than 1/2 of 1% of the entire corps and enlisted is probably more but not much more.

Anyway, back on topic, I am really looking forward to see how the hippie old guys, the psychotic bisexual and Mossad knockoffs are gonna solve the issue and tribulations put forth in the installment!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 14, 2010, 08:24:45 pm
Mossad is probably a bit better than the Feyadeen. Or at least blessed with less competent enemies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 14, 2010, 09:46:52 pm
Well, remember, there's no use pretending there aren't a lot of chain-of-command romances IRL. How things are supposed to work in the regs is one thing, reality is quite another.
I think you are overestimating on this.  It's off topic, but the various militaries spend YEARS training and conditioning they're personnel on this stuff.  While I have no hard numbers, I would suspect that romances between officers are probably less than 1/2 of 1% of the entire corps and enlisted is probably more but not much more.

Oh, I'm well aware it's not exactly common, but even in our good old US of A's military all that training and conditioning doesn't always take, especially in high-stress situations. I spent a while reading Iraq memoirs, particularly those of female soldiers, and there was a lot of coupling and a fair number of pregnancies. (The Abu Ghraib crew had a chain-of-command liason going on). The female soldiers' memoirs went so far as to comment, a bit acerbically, that there were two types of military women: *****es and whores, and that you were rapidly going to get sorted into one category or the other.

And on a narrative level, the number of flight officers who simultaneously survive a large number of combat sorties and do so with distinction and large kill tallies is also very small, probably less than 1/2 of 1% of the corps.  :p Main characters are interesting people!

(Bear in mind though that Simms and Laporte are actually pretty careful not to slip up in this respect; Simms goes so far as to transfer Laporte off her ship when she feels it's a threat to her command.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pr011 on October 14, 2010, 11:59:33 pm
I met my soon-to-be wife in the Navy.

I would say that there is probably just as many personal relationships in the Forces as there is any occupation, but it happens a lot more then the powers that be would like people to think. Although I have no hard figures, it is certainly higher than 0.5%.

If you look at some of the younger recruits, some even at the age of 17 or 18, and throw in the inevitable rapid consumption of alcohol during runs ashore, it's amazing there isn't more pregnancy or inappropriate relationships then there already is. Factor in the stress of a long deployment and/or danger of an operational tour too, where sight of the future narrows to just getting through to tomorrow. There is extensive sexual education in place and in some places, free contraception available.

People are people. The Forces and relevant rules recognise that. The issue arises when such behaviour affects safety and operational effectiveness, hence such rules as splitting partners up into different units to prevent a situation of favouritism or a loss of perspective during an emergency.

Hence the reason why I felt that Simms moving Laporte to another ship was quite a realistic event.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 15, 2010, 07:09:20 am
I met my soon-to-be wife in the Navy.

I would say that there is probably just as many personal relationships in the Forces as there is any occupation, but it happens a lot more then the powers that be would like people to think. Although I have no hard figures, it is certainly higher than 0.5%.

If you look at some of the younger recruits, some even at the age of 17 or 18, and throw in the inevitable rapid consumption of alcohol during runs ashore, it's amazing there isn't more pregnancy or inappropriate relationships then there already is. Factor in the stress of a long deployment and/or danger of an operational tour too, where sight of the future narrows to just getting through to tomorrow. There is extensive sexual education in place and in some places, free contraception available.

People are people. The Forces and relevant rules recognise that. The issue arises when such behaviour affects safety and operational effectiveness, hence such rules as splitting partners up into different units to prevent a situation of favouritism or a loss of perspective during an emergency.

Hence the reason why I felt that Simms moving Laporte to another ship was quite a realistic event.

Nothing quite like hands-on experience. Thank you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on October 15, 2010, 12:10:30 pm
I don't think it's the fact that inter-unit liasons occur so much as it is the fact that it's the main character's direct superior. 

Related:  Are all inter-unit relationships of that nature barred, or is it only direct chain of command?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 15, 2010, 12:13:30 pm
I don't think it's the fact that inter-unit liasons occur so much as it is the fact that it's the main character's direct superior. 

But there was no liason. In fact there was an explicit order to the contrary.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pr011 on October 15, 2010, 02:47:35 pm
Amongst peers interpersonal relationships were tolerated as long as it was quiet and strictly kept off ship. That said, long term relations did not often happen and it was normally a very short thing.

Relationships breaking the commissioned / non-commissioned barrier, however, were massively frowned upon, as well as ones between direct line managers and subordinates. A good way to kill a career! The superior would open themselves to allegations that s/he could be abusing their position, certainly with far younger and less experienced people in subordinate roles. It also could offer a breakdown in discipline. Then we enter the dangerous world of boards, panels and hearings.

Regardless, those in relationships would find themselves posted elsewhere to prevent bad situations – what if the superior had to discipline the junior? What if the superior had to order the junior into a dangerous situation, such as fighting a fire? Would the concentration of both in a critical moment be impaired if they knew the other was in danger nearby?

Each situation would have to be judged on its merits. In training, it was well known amongst us sprogs that one of the Lieutenants training us was in a relationship with a Marine Sergeant. They were both instructors in different departments and it was never seen in public, so not a lot happened and it continued. If that Lieutenant or Sergeant had formed a relationship with a cadet under training however, the establishment would have dropped on them (and the cadet) from a great height. I think what I’m trying to say is that’s not so black and white as “NO RELATIONSHIPS ALLOWED”.

To put this back on topic – would Simms be in the wrong to have a relationship with Laporte as her direct line manager? Probably. If not for the operational side being so intense and demanding on his time, I would suggest the Captain of the Indus or his senior officers would eventually intervene (although Simms ended it on her own terms before anything really started). Would it be different if they were pilots of similar rank in different units? I think it would be tolerated. I think that such a relationship adds depth to both characters, and allows massive potential in terms of drama - let them challenge the rules and get court martialled! Or have a situation where they have to choose between their relationship and their military objectives! For me, the fact that they are same sex is not relevant, the story is still good either way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 15, 2010, 03:38:37 pm
Meh...I tire of this conversation...WE NEEDZ MORE 'SPLODEY!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 17, 2010, 08:50:28 am
I literally wanted to rip Steele's head off by the end Delenda Est, and that was after completing the campaign 2 times.
Steele is a very excellent character, but...
I HATE HIM!!!
can't wait to hear him voice acted

I finally understand what to do on The Blade Itself.
Spoiler:
Guns blazing at the Tristea the first chance I got 5 times in a row. XD
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on October 18, 2010, 09:04:51 am
What are the rotating things on the UEF ships ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 18, 2010, 09:08:37 am
What are the rotating things on the UEF ships ?

Melee weapons to defend against close-range fighter attack.  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 18, 2010, 09:17:37 am
They're pretty poor at that actually. Any pilot keeping a proper lookout should be able to avoid a centrifuge moving at about 2k's an hour.

When you lose situational awareness and snuggle in with a Karuna however, that's a different story. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on October 18, 2010, 09:20:29 am
What are the rotating things on the UEF ships ?

Artificial gravity, I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on October 18, 2010, 09:36:36 am
Yeah... I thought it was gravity, because it's too big for a radar dish (except AWACS)...
How can anyone explain why GTVA has a different artificial gravity technology, since it has been cut from Earth a relatively short time ago (and why are there no Orion class or Fenris class cruisers in the UEF fleet, they existed long before the subspace link was severed) ?

I see 2 possible explanations : this has something to do with natural ressources (something (unobtainium ! XD ) needed for maintaining gravity without rotating parts in the ship, that can't be found in Sol; or a big modernization plan based on new tactics in case the Shivan could return to Sol, including decomissioning all GT cruisers, to build lighter, more effective cruisers with a lower power consuption (assuming that a good old rotating device is less power hungry that some kind of advanced high energy physics machine producing a less-thant-stable artificial gravity field).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 18, 2010, 10:18:30 am
How can anyone explain why GTVA has a different artificial gravity technology, since it has been cut from Earth a relatively short time ago (and why are there no Orion class or Fenris class cruisers in the UEF fleet, they existed long before the subspace link was severed) ?

We did actually discuss using FS1-era ships in the UEF fleet, and we may still do so. But most of the GTA First Fleet was scrapped or mothballed during the big collapse in Sol; think of it as akin to what happened to most of the US WWII fleet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on October 18, 2010, 10:48:28 am
this seriously beats everything so far. Freespace, BSG, my own stuff for TBP, the upcoming WingCommander Saga  :lol:
This is insanly good, brilliant fredding, design and writing. Great use of music, interesting scenarios through and through, incredibly tense. HOLY ****ING ****, you people just outclassed pretty much anyone else  :yes:

impressed doesn't nail it here ;7
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 18, 2010, 10:51:38 am
this seriously beats everything so far. Freespace, BSG, my own stuff for TBP, the upcoming WingCommander Saga  :lol:
This is insanly good, brilliant fredding, design and writing. Great use of music, interesting scenarios through and through, incredibly tense. HOLY ****ING ****, you people just outclassed pretty much anyone else  :yes:

impressed doesn't nail it here ;7

Don't put yourself down! But thank you, I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on October 18, 2010, 11:03:21 am
something to do with natural ressources (something (unobtainium ! XD ) needed for maintaining gravity without rotating parts in the ship, that can't be found in Sol
Nebulae?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on October 18, 2010, 11:06:50 am
There are gas giants in Sol :nervous:

(I guess most ships run with Helium3 & Deuterium of course)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on October 18, 2010, 11:33:57 am
I'm guessing from a cost/performance point of view it made more sense to just build new more tactical versatile and relevant Sanctus-class cruisers rather than upgrade these really old ships. It's not like the UEF was desperate for more pickets until the civil war started, and even then new cruisers shouldn't be that hard to churn out. Plus the Sanctus was the first UEF capital ship design IIRC, and that means there's been plenty of time to retire the old cruisers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 18, 2010, 11:36:00 am
Yeah. There's the issue of the FS1-era ships being kind of ****ty without beam upgrades, and they probably weren't build with the magazine space for the new railguns-n'-torps paradigm.

The UEF found itself with an enormous amount of antimatter generation ability and its military direction really went down the road of utilizing that, which meant designs built around a projectile-centric tactical paradigm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 18, 2010, 06:11:18 pm
I can still imagine a Fenris or Levianthan being refit as an effective minelayer perhaps, but I'd imagine every Orion was probably recycled for material and electronics to be replaced by frigates (and later, the Solaris-class). Also I imagine that this universe too has a Sanctuary, but that the GTA never launched it unlike in the AoA universe thus probably scrapping it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on October 18, 2010, 06:57:53 pm
(and why are there no Orion class or Fenris class cruisers in the UEF fleet, they existed long before the subspace link was severed) ?
[/quote]
I thought about that too, but then I realised that hardly any GTVA ships you encounter in the campaign come from the FS1 era (A couple of Leviathans, an (upgraded) Orion, and a few Elysiums). It was just that I was used to the FS2 GTVA ships, and how radically different the UEF ships were compared to them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 18, 2010, 07:26:00 pm
Am also curious about what makes up the Vasudan armada. Probably a mixed fleet of both the venerable Typhons and Hatshepsut destroyers, along with a whole bunch of corvette's and newer ships. I'm guessing it's atleast the size of the Terran GTVA fleet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 18, 2010, 07:27:45 pm
There are a number of new-to-the-story (though not to the community) Vasudan assets, and in general the Vasudan fleet is about half a generation ahead of its Terran counterparts, both technologically and numerically. Expect a few lovely surprises.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 18, 2010, 07:30:40 pm
I always imagined whoever (GTVA or UEF) is best at playing a little game of make-believe to draw the Vasudans to their side would ultimately win the war. Guessing though they learned from the Colossus and didn't put all their money on a single racing horse anymore by building supercam ships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on October 18, 2010, 08:21:33 pm
How can anyone explain why GTVA has a different artificial gravity technology, since it has been cut from Earth a relatively short time ago (and why are there no Orion class or Fenris class cruisers in the UEF fleet, they existed long before the subspace link was severed) ?
I remember something about "expensive grav plating" in the tech room, but now I can't find it. :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on October 18, 2010, 09:09:36 pm
There are a number of new-to-the-story (though not to the community) Vasudan assets, and in general the Vasudan fleet is about half a generation ahead of its Terran counterparts, both technologically and numerically. Expect a few lovely surprises.
I look forward to this.
Kneel before Zod!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on October 18, 2010, 11:27:51 pm
I'm not surprised the GTVA still has Leviathans in service, as the General implied they're actually useful with beam cannons and the GTVA's many systems requires a larger fleet, both against the Shivans and internal threats. Unlike in Sol, where you could probably jump a Karuna on top of insurgents in 5 minutes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 18, 2010, 11:34:05 pm
Leviathans are not exactly front-line platforms, but make useful anchors for light tactical operations and serve decently as minelayers.

You will curse the name of minelayers when you get a chance to fly against them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 18, 2010, 11:56:01 pm
Mines, eh? Sounds pretty interesting. They're not like the Cargo Pods in Derelict, are they?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 18, 2010, 11:56:54 pm
I finished it.
I liked it, if nothing else it kept me playing, but of the two I prefer Age of Aquarius by far.

Overall the production values were good of course and the important missions were punctuated by a good use of music. The writing overall was good and so forth. And most of the camera moves were fairly good. But . . .

Spoiler:
Overall I found the campaign a little too sterile. Going for hard-military realism is interesting but in some cases it just gets boring.

The escort the Agincourt through the gate mission for example. The whole mission is sort of set up to some big climatic showdown where the Solaris jumps in, but the only thing that gets destroyed in that mission is my Frame Rate. Why does the Medea stay and die while the other ships all depart? And more importantly, the Hood jumping out is very anti-climatic "yeah! you better run!". Yay. Not fun. I understand the whole idea about preserving their ships, but it's interesting that a ship can get puliverized to the brink of death and then still luckily have its jump drives intact to make good its escape. That's where sterile military bit comes in. Having nearly every ship jump out instead of being destroyed is very unsatisfying.

And later on, the end mission was not at all believable imo. Four UEF ships throw themselves at the Imperieuse to get cut down? If you're going to throw your life away then throw it away by ramming your ship into the Carthage. At least then you'll achieve your bloody mission objective. Having an entire fleet, fly right past the Carthage was beyond stupid in my opinion. Your ships are at knife fighting range to your target, and you just leave it unmolested to chase someone down in a surely futile attempt to buy time?? Makes no sense whatsoever.  If the Imperieuse jumps between them and the Carthage, then sure, throw yourselves at him. But like they say in the briefing, if they take down the Carthage they can end the war. So Imperieuse or no Imperieuse why would they pass up that opportunity?  

Also I found Laporte a bit schizophrenic, and that's not supposed to be ironic. The first half of the campaign her thoughts seemed a bit disjointed and to me didn't really fit the mood of the missions. Maybe it's just me. Having everyone depressed at getting their butt kicked is fine. But if I don't feel it too it doesn't connect.


Like I say, overall it was a well done, and there was good build up when it counted but there wasn't enough payoff in those important missions. And yeah, maybe that was supposed to be the intent. But when it stretches believability I don't buy it. Then again, that whole Lucifer vs the fleet in AoA had a lack of payoff for me too. It did after all, turn out to be dream. The first time around at least.


EDIT - Also it's interesting that everyone thinks Laporte is hot ****. The way the campaign is set up the player is much more of an everyman instead of an Alpha 1. Laporte plays an important role sometimes, but she's not always crucial to the mission, and not always in a military sense either. So having everyone rave about her when all she's done is stay alive seems a bit out of place. Only time she single handidly saves the day is when she uses her phone (that I can think of anyway)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on October 19, 2010, 12:05:26 am
There are a number of new-to-the-story (though not to the community) Vasudan assets, and in general the Vasudan fleet is about half a generation ahead of its Terran counterparts, both technologically and numerically.
Is this because of the GTVA/UEF war?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on October 19, 2010, 12:48:47 am
Probably simply because the Vasudan rocks :p
inb4 Hatshepsut vs Hecate
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 19, 2010, 02:25:19 am
There are a number of new-to-the-story (though not to the community) Vasudan assets, and in general the Vasudan fleet is about half a generation ahead of its Terran counterparts, both technologically and numerically.
Is this because of the GTVA/UEF war?

Not really, no. In the backstory, the Vasudan Empire simply came out of the Great War and the second Incursion rather unscathed. They weren't plagued with having to re-house 250 million refugees, they didn't have the uncertainty of having lost contact with their homeworld, and so they were able to concentrate on rebuilding and renewal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 03:15:45 am
Oh one more thing I will say, using the recommendations tab to give personal post-battle thoughts was a pretty cool idea. If I ever do another character-driven campaign I just might thief it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pr011 on October 19, 2010, 05:53:24 am
There are a number of new-to-the-story (though not to the community) Vasudan assets, and in general the Vasudan fleet is about half a generation ahead of its Terran counterparts, both technologically and numerically.
Is this because of the GTVA/UEF war?

Not really, no. In the backstory, the Vasudan Empire simply came out of the Great War and the second Incursion rather unscathed. They weren't plagued with having to re-house 250 million refugees, they didn't have the uncertainty of having lost contact with their homeworld, and so they were able to concentrate on rebuilding and renewal.


Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, would not the loss  of Vasuda Prime during the great war cause massive social and economic instability in the empire, much like the loss of Earth for terrans eventually led to the rise of the NTF?

The loss of a homeworld would be fundamentally disastrous for any species.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on October 19, 2010, 06:04:51 am
Vasudan culture can be interpreted to be better equipped to deal with such a severe setback, due to how they perceive history and time. For them time is something occupied by both the living and dead, and the concept of their homeplanet continues to exist in their consciousness. The loss of their homeworld could be minimised as a result.

I don't know what canon says about Aldebaran or whether there are any planets in the system that they can use to replace Vasuda Prime, but as the seat of Vasudan parliament it gave them a pretty strong platform to rebuild their government and economy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 19, 2010, 06:11:09 am
I would also say that having a smoking crater of a homeworld there to visit, to mourn and ultimately, to make peace with what happened is better than not knowing what happened.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 07:19:31 am
Why does the Medea stay and die while the other ships all depart?

Look at what happens in the mission: it's the only ship that's jumped in recently and hasn't had a chance to recharge.

Quote
And later on, the end mission was not at all believable imo. Four UEF ships throw themselves at the Imperieuse to get cut down? If you're going to throw your life away then throw it away by ramming your ship into the Carthage. At least then you'll achieve your bloody mission objective. Having an entire fleet, fly right past the Carthage was beyond stupid in my opinion. Your ships are at knife fighting range to your target, and you just leave it unmolested to chase someone down in a surely futile attempt to buy time??

Give us some credit for sense. We tested this strategy during development and it doesn't work; the Carthage will not die in time. It's just as futile for the Wargods and they know it. If they could have taken out the Imperieuse's forward beams with railgun or torp fire, however, they could have taken out BOTH destroyers and won an overwhelming victory. Easy choice there.

Quote
EDIT - Also it's interesting that everyone thinks Laporte is hot ****. The way the campaign is set up the player is much more of an everyman instead of an Alpha 1. Laporte plays an important role sometimes, but she's not always crucial to the mission, and not always in a military sense either. So having everyone rave about her when all she's done is stay alive seems a bit out of place. Only time she single handidly saves the day is when she uses her phone (that I can think of anyway)[/spoiler]

That's exactly the point, though; staying alive and being a good component of the team that gets the job done is what qualifies for excellence here, not single-handedly winning the day.

I think this reaction is just a case of 'the campaign wasn't for you'. Most of the things you're worried about were intentional design decisions in an attempt to smarten up the FreeSpace universe and make a sustained war believable. Ships should always jump out if they can, destroyers are tough as hell and should almost never let themselves be killed, and the player should not be a totally game-changing force.

You may like R2 better though.

There are a number of new-to-the-story (though not to the community) Vasudan assets, and in general the Vasudan fleet is about half a generation ahead of its Terran counterparts, both technologically and numerically.
Is this because of the GTVA/UEF war?

Not really, no. In the backstory, the Vasudan Empire simply came out of the Great War and the second Incursion rather unscathed. They weren't plagued with having to re-house 250 million refugees, they didn't have the uncertainty of having lost contact with their homeworld, and so they were able to concentrate on rebuilding and renewal.


Forgive me for playing devil's advocate, would not the loss  of Vasuda Prime during the great war cause massive social and economic instability in the empire, much like the loss of Earth for terrans eventually led to the rise of the NTF?

The loss of a homeworld would be fundamentally disastrous for any species.

Actually, canon says the Vasudans came through reconstruction very strong, so canonically...no.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 19, 2010, 07:32:20 am
Vasudan culture can be interpreted to be better equipped to deal with such a severe setback, due to how they perceive history and time. For them time is something occupied by both the living and dead, and the concept of their homeplanet continues to exist in their consciousness. The loss of their homeworld could be minimised as a result.

Being a philosophical bunch also helps too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 19, 2010, 07:37:57 am
Quote
That's exactly the point, though; staying alive and being a good component of the team that gets the job done is what qualifies for excellence here, not single-handedly winning the day.
Keep in mind that in addition this, Laporte has apparently racked up a staggering killcount.

And something you'll come across when you read the biographies of pilots and in basically every field of the profession of arms is that experience is a very valuable thing, and something that's greatly respected for very good reasons. In addition to this, staying alive when everyone around you is dying is also in the league of incredible things. I once saw an interview with 'Bam' Bamberger (you may be familiar with him, depending on how into WWII aviation history you are), he said during the interview that when he was in Malta, a pilot who started out in a bomber squadron based at the same airfield as he started the week as a Sergeant Pilot and ended the week as a Wing Commander simply because he was the only one pilot of the original bunch left.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gorman on October 19, 2010, 11:14:19 am
I would like to pass on my observations and suggestion as a freespace fan & real life officer. Sorry for my English.  
 
When I was playing AOA for the first time I was amazed by its story, new ships, and very entertaining missions. Then came WIH - and to be honest - missions were great fun and for the first time freespace was becoming sort of Scifi-Milsim, but i was expecting something more from the story and overall shift from fun to some philosophical  thing - did not go well.  
 
I will start with the things i do not like - and finish with some suggestions regarding tactical and  
I think, from what i have read and seen for past ten years in army - Humans are predators, we rule this planet because we are at the top of the food chain - we excel at killing, and we develop so we can do it more efficient - first Sumer civilization, first city-states were created to gain upper hand in war, to create more advanced weapons,armor and logistical capability. First kings were warlords. Few centuries ahead in Egypt, second civilization was born upon people fighting for "black land" and Nile. When people find out that only way to protect themselves is to create bigger,more advanced societies. As kingdoms grow bigger(democratic states did not stand a chance with kingdoms - see Athens vs Sparta etc) they conquer and suppress neighbors so no one could become a threat to them - and if state archive total supremacy over enemies (Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Macedonian Empire, British Empire, etc) - they collapse due to internal affairs and lack of motivation to improve - if you are all powerful - why should you spend money on army or war-oriented economy?  
And then you will be surprised how fast your enemies are developing, joint with each other to attack you.  
It was the arms race that put human race in space - and it will be arms race that will keep us there.  
Our whole history of development evolve upon war.  
 
We are like shivans - we are ultimate predators and if we encounter something we do not know - we attack - better safe than sorry. As we did with the Vasudans. The only thing that keep us from next war with them were the Shivans. GTVA was created to counter that threat. And it did its purpose - during the second shivan incursion the high command did great job. I my opinion any other government would fail to accomplish so much in that situation. If High command would hesitate for a minute to use meson bombs to close the nodes to capella - ...  
 
After what happened during second incursion, when we finally have a grasp of shivan capabilities and power - And when we finally managed to open a way to Solar system - the most productive system, whose economy is equal to all human colonies - we find Ubuntu Party that  "placed emphasis on economic recovery and political stability, rather than military strength", knowing well that shivan understanding of jump nodes and Subspace is far better (They could use uncharted node to get to Sol) and they could eventually get to Sol by normal space(given 30-40 years by sublight speeds) - all they have come up with is 3 solaris-class battleships with carrier capability and some frigates - very good I admit. But as for biggest human economic power  - such small force is a sign of weak government and utter stupidity of its leaders.  For comparison - smaller GTVA managed to build dozens of Hecate/Orion/Titan/Raynor Class Carriers/Battleships  in that time. Not to mention Collossus.  
 
We have battle-harden warriors like Steele against Natreba, Calder and other bunch of soft, not prepared for combat maniacs.  
 
Now Ubuntu leaders want to play with everybody lives in a bosch-like attempt to put their fates in hands of unknown alien race, that for all we know could be in a alliance with the shivans or At least not be able to stop them like in AOA.  
So the question is - would You, put your life in hand of some crazy prophets that  have said if we are cute and sheep-like enough we will live because some  powerful aliens we do not nothing about  (but for what we have seen in AOA are no real match for Shivans) could come and "use ancient art of pantomime" on destroyers to save the day before shivans will be bored with it  and slice their keepers with BFReds.  
OR you could take your chances in combat / work as hard as you can to build up economic base - to protect those you love - in this case you At least have a fighting chance.  
 
As for laporte talking with aliens and bend on GTVA destruction - If you are a Shivan, a ultimate predator in space - you have hundreds of years of war experience - what is the easiest way to cleanse the galaxy from species like your self before they grow and become a threat to you? You disrupt its government by supporting some pacifists who will in time disarm your opponent, turn them against each other so they will be weaker when you go in directly.  
Shivans would not posses such technology if they would be mindless or dumb. They could rollover us if they really want to - but at Very high cost. Its easier to use Bei, Laporte and Elders to destroy leadership of those who managed to defeat or atleast set back your offensive.  
 
Maybe whole 14th BattleGroup incident was staged by shivans to stop GTVA from taking back earth where they secretly rule?  :doubt:  :lol:
 
.........
 
Ok now I will focus on some tactical issues and suggestions.
 
Freespace battlefield is asymmetric with 4 dimensional battlefield (4th is Subspace)  - I very liked the way WIH embraced that. You can attack with smaller forces draw enemy to you and then ambush him using subspace jumps. So basically it all down to numbers - who have more wins.  
I wont focus on GTVA vs UEF because it's already lost war for the UEF from the beginning. And having Steele at helm - i doubt it will take much longer - unless UEF have been building a fleet of solaris'es or Icanus somewhere ;-). So i will pass on my observations on ways to fight the shivans
 
The only choke point were you can use smaller forces to defend against larger ones, are the Jump Nodes (irrelevant in WIH becouse GTVA already taken the Node).  
All this leaves some interesting questions like:
1. You need to find a way to keep your flanks safe in order to counter those subspace jumps.
2. How to defend against superior numbers of ships
3. What are the ways to create "choke point" in 4th dimensional space.  
4. How to counter enemy massive dreadnoughts like Sathanas
 
etc.  
 
The most important ones are in my opinion 2 and 3 - We need to find a simple and efficient way to counter shivan superior numbers - and i think the answer to that are mines - mass produced, with simple IFF system. cheap, used in massive numbers to cover nodes and installations - they would create much needed tactical depth and a choke point - keeping shivans from jumping at beam range - shivans have poor point defenses - it would take them a while to clear thought a minefield. Also Pegasus stealth technology would help to improve their usefulness.  
Giving much time to stage an attack by our superior fighters and long range missiles.  
 
Apocalypse/Eos, mass drivers, Bombers armed with Helios bombs/ missiles/torpedoes shown great potential in long range battles - We need to keep those Beams at long range to stand a chance.  
 
Develop some ECM buoys/decoys to mess with they targeting computers - drag them behind your ships - like today destroyers.  
 
Use EOS/Apocalypse single-shot multi-missile pods as cheap way to add much needed long range-firepower when defending installations/nodes.  
 
Shivans most powerful units like Sathanas are defenseless against rear and flanking attack - making them easy pray for wisely deployed node defense forces.
 
I wonder if any one would care to read that much.

Sorry for my English.

For Blueplanet Crew -
Keep up with good work - if AOA & Wih were commercial games - they would still by great.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on October 19, 2010, 12:36:33 pm
I think, from what i have read and seen for past ten years in army - Humans are predators, we rule this planet because we are at the top of the food chain - we excel at killing, and we develop so we can do it more efficient - first Sumer civilization, first city-states were created to gain upper hand in war, to create more advanced weapons,armor and logistical capability. First kings were warlords. Few centuries ahead in Egypt, second civilization was born upon people fighting for "black land" and Nile. When people find out that only way to protect themselves is to create bigger,more advanced societies. As kingdoms grow bigger(democratic states did not stand a chance with kingdoms - see Athens vs Sparta etc) they conquer and suppress neighbors so no one could become a threat to them - and if state archive total supremacy over enemies (Roman Empire, Persian Empire, Macedonian Empire, British Empire, etc) - they collapse due to internal affairs and lack of motivation to improve - if you are all powerful - why should you spend money on army or war-oriented economy?  

I tend to disagree with statements like that. To me, the predatorial history of man is not a mean in itself, but a way to achieve the real goal: Mankinds unique characteristic to set him apart from animals - his will (or some may say lust) for power. Power meaning not necessarily military or political might, but in general the ability and freedom to influence and change the world around us (including our own life), to get the world closer to the imaginations of our mind and subdue reality.

The other big factor that is also found in some animals, but not to that extend, is of course hierarchy and social status. This is closely linked to the above - military/political leaders (changing the world, foremost the way mankind itself is structured through force), merchants (changing the world through exchange and creation of values, foremost your own life by acquisition of said values) and artists/philosophers (changing the way people think and creating ideals to live by) have (had) high status in society.

Many wars were essentially pillage hunts to gain ressources, slaves, luxuries. If you win a war, you don't have to work as much and have a lot of valuables, which leaves you more time and ressources to spend on sophistication and acquisition of power and culture. And every bit of culture is another part of nature which doesnt dictate our life and has been replaced - another freedom fought for by mankind.

In that regard it may also be a factor in explaining why many cultures have a view of destruction and creation being connected and "in balance" in an ideal society.

Also, the UEF thought two things: A - they may be isolated for as long as they themselves choose, until they perhaps discover subspace portal technology themselves and B - the only Shivan fleet they knew was the Lucifer fleet - and their force might even be enough to cope with a threat as big as that. True to say, thoughts like that crushed many empires, but it was understandable to see where they were coming from.

Now, the GTVA is going through another way to bring an empire to it's knees. Imagine North Korea. Incredible output of War machinery for it's Gross National Product, but collapsing because of inefficiency (much force is needed to subdue and control the populous which more and more lives in squalor) and lack of infrastructure. Of course NK has more problems than the GTVA, but still, it comes close in terms of their economical focus and their problems.

On another note, your tactics are actually very very good. Only two problems might arise: Shivans have been known to use subspace nodes that the GTVA didn't know about (seeminlgy appearing from nowhere), and Shivan Numbers are so enormous and their attitude is so machine-like, they might disable minefields by just sacrificig some heavily armored capital ships. They could field a fleet of Satanas juggernauts - and we can reasonably think that might have been just a fraction of their total-war capabilities. Even with genius tactics and increased military output - I fear the inevitable could only be delayed.

So, the link to the Vishnans is essentially the only thing I personally think we have. The Shivans couldn't be resoned with, but here may be some way to actually do something to that regard. Maybe not reason with them, maybe just discover some war-changing weakness, or get a war-changin ally. Maybe find out their motivation and being able to fulfill that without mankind being exterminated. Of course we must stand our ground and fight, but this war cannot be won.

Still, nice post. And your English is OK, you are perfectly comprehensible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 12:42:04 pm
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And later on, the end mission was not at all believable imo. Four UEF ships throw themselves at the Imperieuse to get cut down? If you're going to throw your life away then throw it away by ramming your ship into the Carthage. At least then you'll achieve your bloody mission objective. Having an entire fleet, fly right past the Carthage was beyond stupid in my opinion. Your ships are at knife fighting range to your target, and you just leave it unmolested to chase someone down in a surely futile attempt to buy time??

Give us some credit for sense. We tested this strategy during development and it doesn't work; the Carthage will not die in time. It's just as futile for the Wargods and they know it. If they could have taken out the Imperieuse's forward beams with railgun or torp fire, however, they could have taken out BOTH destroyers and won an overwhelming victory. Easy choice there.

It they thought there was any chance of taking on the Imperieuse they wouldn't have sent the Yangtze and Indus away. Not to mention that leaving a fully armed destroyer at your rear is seriously flawed tactically. Like I say, just ram the Carthage, there's no relative speed in freespace anyway. 20m/s from a starting point of 500 feet away is the same as 20m/s from 10 clicks out (ie the opening cinematic). Get four ships ramming the carthage I'm sure it'll go down. It just came across as contrived melodrama to me.

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I think this reaction is just a case of 'the campaign wasn't for you'. Most of the things you're worried about were intentional design decisions in an attempt to smarten up the FreeSpace universe and make a sustained war believable. Ships should always jump out if they can, destroyers are tough as hell and should almost never let themselves be killed, and the player should not be a totally game-changing force.

No just the opposite. Some parts of the campaign were not believable. If the Carthage is crippled and has its back to the wall and no one's in the know of what Steele is doing, would all of her escorts abandon her one by one? Same thing with the Hood, her escorts jumping out and leaving her by herself. That doesn't make sense. What if the uffies launch a surprise bomber strike and crippled her engines. When you're tasked with protecting a vital ship you don't abandon them and hope they'll get out by themselves. And you certainly don't all abandon them when you KNOW they cannot get out. No matter what the Admiral tells you to do.

And having ships jump capable regardless of how damaged they are doesn't make much sense to me either. Especially when in the last mission the Yangtzee for some contrived reason can't jump out with the Indus. Why is it that one ship can't jump out at 32% hull when the previous 30 ships jumped out at 12-15% hull just fine.

Reason being of course you wanted a melodramatic ending to a realistic story. But do melodrama and realism really go together?


That and ships exploding isn't about gameplay, it isn't about campaign flavour, it's about consequence. People die in war. That's realism. Ships enter battles, and don't come out at the end. Not everyone can get out, even when they have the opportunity. Looking back at the campaign, nothing of consequence really happens throughout the whole campaign. Very few ships die. No planets change hands. The Tev war hasn't really advanced in any way. Yeah, there's supposedly some logistical problem but it has no visible consequence. Look at the Agincourt. They take it, but the Tevs just replace it. Then 1st fleet takes it, which from the previous missions sounds like it would throw a wrench in 2nd fleet's plans, but 2nd fleet keeps doing what it's doing anyway. So what was the consequence of the Agincourt? It didn't affect the Tevs. It didn't affect 2nd fleet. Supposedly it affected some secret project which we never see anyway. But really that whole arc had no consequence at all.

In the same way they try to help the Vasudans to bring them on their side. But all their efforts end in with the Vasudans still being bad guys.

And what about 2nd fleet? The Wargods get destroyed. But Laporte ends up joining the Fedayeen, some super secret elite taskforce, which wasn't doing anything anyway. So do the deaths of the Wargods matter? No, not really. Are the uffies weaker? No, because now some new ships are joining the war to replace the ones they just lost. So overall not much really happens in the whole war at all.

The highlight of the campaign for me was the opening cinematic, and that was probably due in large part to your choice of music than anything else. Music is emotion, and the star trek trailer music was a very good choice.

Anyway, a lot of this sounds like *****ing. But I would like to emphasize that overall the production quality was very good. The writing was well done, the war was obviously very thoroughly thought out and there was also obviously quite a lot of good fredding at work. Most of the cinematics and camera moves were pretty good as well and the missions took musical cues very well. Some parts of the campaign just didn't click with me, especially the last mission. I certainly have no qualms with the quality of the campaign, I'm just not fully endeared to the execution of the story.

Also I for one, dislike this notion of "rebalancing" missions in a campaign. Forced Entry from AoA was one of the most memorable from the campaign, and it was memorable in part because it was hard. A campaign should have both medium difficulty and hard missions. From what I understand, the climatic battle of this campaign was at one point harder but was later dumbed down. Personally I won it on my second attempt playing on medium. Conversely to what many people say, it is good to have challenging missions. One shouldn't always rebalance things because people are having trouble. If they're having trouble they should put it on very easy.

The mission I had the most trouble with was 2nd to last one. And that was hard because my computer kept crashing (esp antipodes) and because the Deimos kept catching me with beam fire.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on October 19, 2010, 12:54:06 pm
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A campaign should have both medium difficulty and hard missions.

Or you could play on a higher difficulty for a mission or two.  Difficulty spikes tend to lead to a dramatic increase in the number of ragequits for a given mission.  For a very good example, take a look at all the soon-after-release comments for Delenda Est.  Rebalancing is sometimes very necessary.

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Especially when in the last mission the Yangtzee for some contrived reason can't jump out with the Indus. Why is it that one ship can't jump out at 32% hull when the previous 30 ships jumped out at 12-15% hull just fine.


You have four ships.  If you sacrifice two of them in a delaying maneuver, the other two can escape by widening the gap between themselves and the enemy.  If you try to run with all four, the enemy catches and destroyes them all.  What do you do?

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But really that whole arc had no consequence at all

In case you've forgotten, there's still more to WiH to be released.


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In the same way they try to help the Vasudans to bring them on their side. But all their efforts end in with the Vasudans still being bad guys.

First off, the Vasudans have never been the bad guys.  Second, I refer you to my above statement.

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So overall not much really happens in the whole war at all.

To borrow some terms from mathematics, it's about distance travelled, not about displacement.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 12:57:02 pm
Quote
And later on, the end mission was not at all believable imo. Four UEF ships throw themselves at the Imperieuse to get cut down? If you're going to throw your life away then throw it away by ramming your ship into the Carthage. At least then you'll achieve your bloody mission objective. Having an entire fleet, fly right past the Carthage was beyond stupid in my opinion. Your ships are at knife fighting range to your target, and you just leave it unmolested to chase someone down in a surely futile attempt to buy time??

Give us some credit for sense. We tested this strategy during development and it doesn't work; the Carthage will not die in time. It's just as futile for the Wargods and they know it. If they could have taken out the Imperieuse's forward beams with railgun or torp fire, however, they could have taken out BOTH destroyers and won an overwhelming victory. Easy choice there.

It they thought there was any chance of taking on the Imperieuse they wouldn't have sent the Yangtze and Indus away. Not to mention that leaving a fully armed destroyer at your rear is seriously flawed tactically. Like I say, just ram the Carthage, there's no relative speed in freespace anyway. 20m/s from a starting point of 500 feet away is the same as 20m/s from 10 clicks out (ie the opening cinematic). Get four ships ramming the carthage I'm sure it'll go down. It just came across as contrived melodrama to me.

You'll just have to take it as contrived melodrama, then. Ramming has dramatic appeal but at the relatively slow speeds present in FS wouldn't do much damage (it's more of a slow sustained kiss than a sharp blow.) We worked out the options there and ultimately the one they took was the one that gave them the best odds of success. Sending the Yangtze and Indus away was a logical choice because they could possibly escape the Imperieuse's beam envelope; the forward echelon couldn't and had to take the option that gave it the best chance of survival.

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I think this reaction is just a case of 'the campaign wasn't for you'. Most of the things you're worried about were intentional design decisions in an attempt to smarten up the FreeSpace universe and make a sustained war believable. Ships should always jump out if they can, destroyers are tough as hell and should almost never let themselves be killed, and the player should not be a totally game-changing force.

No just the opposite. Some parts of the campaign were not believable. If the Carthage is crippled and has its back to the wall and no one's in the know of what Steele is doing, would all of her escorts abandon her one by one?

They knew exactly what Steele was doing. And yes, they absolutely would abandon her one by one, if the alternative is destruction and if their commander is a woman who is known for putting the lives of her subordinates above all else.

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Same thing with the Hood, her escorts jumping out and leaving her by herself. That doesn't make sense.

If the alternative is them exploding, it absolutely does. They don't jump out until it's clear they won't survive otherwise.

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And having ships jump capable regardless of how damaged they are doesn't make much sense to me either. Especially when in the last mission the Yangtzee for some contrived reason can't jump out with the Indus. Why is it that one ship can't jump out at 32% hull when the previous 30 ships jumped out at 12-15% hull just fine.

Did you miss all the dialogue about the Yangtze's engine failure? Her engines were wrecked by Maxim penetration. I guess you could say it's contrived, but these things happen.

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That and ships exploding isn't about gameplay, it isn't about campaign flavour, it's about consequence. People die in war. That's realism. Ships enter battles, and don't come out at the end. Not everyone can get out, even when they have the opportunity.

Tens of thousands of people die. That's realism, and it's present in spades. What wouldn't be realistic is if multi-thousand-man warship crews could routinely be taken down by small groups of one-man fighters. Why even bother with warships, then?

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Looking back at the campaign, nothing of consequence really happens throughout the whole campaign. Very few ships die. No planets change hands.

Too many ships died! We were scrambling right up until release to cut down on warship losses. Remember, we have an order of battle for both sides, and we were freaking out because half the respective combatants were blowing up just in R1. We were afraid we weren't going to have anything left to fight the war with!

Off the top of my head if you perform well in R1 you can wreck the Ajax, Essex, Juarez, Redoubtable, Norfolk, Siren, Utica, Ithaca, Medea, Valerie, blah blah

And on your side you lose the Akula, the Ranvir, you can lose the Ironhide, the Suffron, the Vatican, the Dea Icaunis, the Dea Bricta, the Auxerre, the Guerriere, the well I think you get the point. These kinds of losses in such a short span of time are pretty catastrophically huge, and there are other ships blowing up offscreen.

No planets change hands (except Jupiter) because planets are huge and it takes a long time to work up to an invasion that makes Normandy look like a tea party.

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The Tev war hasn't really advanced in any way. Yeah, there's supposedly some logistical problem but it has no visible consequence. Look at the Agincourt. They take it, but the Tevs just replace it.

The Tevs have to bring in the Vasudans to make up for the loss.

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Then 1st fleet takes it, which from the previous missions sounds like it would throw a wrench in 2nd fleet's plans, but 2nd fleet keeps doing what it's doing anyway.

I agree that the consequences there were not as well shown, but it's hard to display consequences that are 'the status quo remains'. They don't get to undertake some ops they might have otherwise, but which you'll see in R2.

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So what was the consequence of the Agincourt? It didn't affect the Tevs. It didn't affect 2nd fleet. Supposedly it affected some secret project which we never see anyway. But really that whole arc had no consequence at all.

The capture of the Agincourt forced Steele to bring in the Vasudans which led to the incident at the Pesedjet which led to the assassination of Elder Taudigani which ultimately brought about the Carthage gambit.

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In the same way they try to help the Vasudans to bring them on their side. But all their efforts end in with the Vasudans still being bad guys.

The enemy is proactive and smart. It's a chess game and you only get to see the opening half in R1.

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And what about 2nd fleet? The Wargods get destroyed. But Laporte ends up joining the Fedayeen, some super secret elite taskforce, which wasn't doing anything anyway. So do the deaths of the Wargods matter? No, not really.

Except that it marks the abrupt and catastrophic termination of the first big UEF offensive push.

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Are the uffies weaker? No, because now some new ships are joining the war to replace the ones they just lost. So overall not much really happens in the whole war at all.

They are absolutely weaker. They lost the centerpiece of their strategic offensive, their biggest morale linchpin and six front-line warships.

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Anyway, a lot of this sounds like *****ing. But I would like to emphasize that overall the production quality was very good. The writing was well done, the war was obviously very thoroughly thought out and there was also obviously quite a lot of good fredding at work. Most of the cinematics and camera moves were pretty good as well and the missions took musical cues very well. Some parts of the campaign just didn't click with me, especially the last mission. I certainly have no qualms with the quality of the campaign, I'm just not fully endeared to the execution of the story.

Thanks, I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Quote
Also I for one, dislike this notion of "rebalancing" missions in a campaign. Forced Entry from AoA was one of the most memorable from the campaign, and it was memorable in part because it was hard. A campaign should have both medium difficulty and hard missions. From what I understand, the climatic battle of this campaign was at one point harder but was later dumbed down. Personally I won it on my second attempt playing on medium. Conversely to what many people say, it is good to have challenging missions. One shouldn't always rebalance things because people are having trouble. If they're having trouble they should put it on very easy.

Ultimately we need to balance our missions between accessibility and challenge. If you want your missions to be very hard, please play on insane. Delenda Est is absolutely challenging, but if an experienced player beats it on their second try on medium, then that sounds like it's balanced perfectly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 01:10:03 pm
They knew exactly what Steele was doing. And yes, they absolutely would abandon her one by one, if the alternative is destruction and if their commander is a woman who is known for putting the lives of her subordinates above all else.

Not according to you they didn't. From page 10 in a response to -Sara- you wrote:

"During the events of Pawns and Delenda Est, she wasn't just acting (at least I think so), she was genuinely concerned for her crews and her own ship. She didn't know exactly how Steele was planning to run this - she probably had no idea the Imperieuse was lurking in-system - and for all she knew she was going to be left out to dry while Steele captured Earth or something."

So not knowing that Steele would come to save the day, they all left her one by one to die. That don't make sense. Unless of course you were mistaken in your previous post.  Anyway I might respond to some the other points later but don't want to make this seem like an argument as opposed to a discussion anyway. Plus I'm at work so really should be working not internet forum chatting :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 01:15:04 pm
They knew exactly what Steele was doing. And yes, they absolutely would abandon her one by one, if the alternative is destruction and if their commander is a woman who is known for putting the lives of her subordinates above all else.

Not according to you they didn't. From page 10 in a response to -Sara- you wrote:

"During the events of Pawns and Delenda Est, she wasn't just acting (at least I think so), she was genuinely concerned for her crews and her own ship. She didn't know exactly how Steele was planning to run this - she probably had no idea the Imperieuse was lurking in-system - and for all she knew she was going to be left out to dry while Steele captured Earth or something."

So not knowing that Steele would come to save the day, they all left her one by one to die. That don't make sense. Unless of course you were mistaken in your previous post.  Anyway I might respond to some the other points later but don't want to make this seem like an argument as opposed to a discussion anyway. Plus I'm at work so really should be working not internet forum chatting :P

She knew that Steele had a plan and she knew that Steele had quite specifically told her to put her battle group in harm's way. She didn't know the endgame (you're right, I shouldn't have said 'exactly what Steele was up to') but when I fumbled with that 'exactly' what I should have said was that she was well aware that this was all 'part of the plan'. She knew her ships were going to be shot to hell and so she ordered them out.

There is zero doubt in my mind, knowing Lopez's concern for and loyalty to her crews, that she briefed all her captains ahead of time to jump out when badly damaged.

You also have to understand that they don't gain much of anything by staying on scene to fight to the death. We clocked this out too and generally they're only giving up fifteen or twenty seconds of station time - not enough to make a huge difference before exploding.

While it might seem like this is me hastily retconning my own response to Sara, the fact that she was ordered to put her crews in harms way was established before R1 was even released; check out the BP Library, thread title 'Conversations from War in Heaven'.

Honestly even if she believed this were her last stand, I believe she'd order her escorts to withdraw. (Whether they'd obey the order is another question.)

And just to expand on a broader philosophical point.

Honestly I suspect the harshest critic of the story out there is me. I can go on for hours about everything I think is wrong with War in Heaven, to the point of mockery and cruelty. But it's not totally clear to me that makes a huge difference.

For any given narrative the experienced quality is a function not just of the narrative itself but the viewer's expectations and standards. I know there are people out there for whom this story would just be facile, sophomoric melodrama, and others for whom it's a profoundly moving work. (I've been particularly touched by the notes we've received from GLBT people who thanked us for giving them a space in the story).

As a creator, there's just a point where you have to accept that kind of variability in response and do the best you can. It always stings to get a negative reaction, ironically more than it pleases to get a positive one, but while there are some criticisms that are pretty much universal, there are other fixes that you can't make without a price.

During development we made it a goal to deconstruct, first, the FreeSpace gameplay model, and second, the narrative model of FreeSpace in which vast amount of death occurs with little impact on the relatively faceless characters. But we knew that those decisions were going to carry a price, because :V: picked that gameplay model and that narrative model for a reason. A powerful Alpha 1 allows the player to feel like they really impact the outcomes of the missions and, in turn, the story. Faceless characters and a fast-paced, clean narrative allow the story to keep the player engaged without becoming bogged down in philosophy and introspection.

You make choices and you work with the consequences. Sometimes they're bad choices, sometimes they're merely divisive. But I think we'd rather produce something divisive but at least grasping for artistry than something safe and by-the-book. Believe me, there are times when I wish we had a nonspeaking character and our briefings could just say 'here are your targets, here's what you've got to do', a la retail - because in many ways that approach has some major advantages, and it's definitely safer. But what we're doing works for enough people to make it worth it to keep doing it.

Which isn't to say your criticism is in any way invalid or wrong, Akalabeth; honestly it's flattering to get that degree of thought.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 19, 2010, 02:24:41 pm
Will we learn what happened to the ships disbled prior to Delenda Est and if not, can you tell us?
To capture a Deimos and an Aeolus would help the UEF quite a bit, if they can pull it off (material for research and development, material for the secret project or just as additions to the fleet), even tough their weapons are pretty much completely destroyed during the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 02:44:53 pm
Well, a lot of it maybe seems like nitpicking, but to expand upon some thoughts in what may be a more constructive way.

-The Yangtzee's jump drives failing-
I don't have a problem with a damaged ship not having it's drives working. That's fine and makes sense to me. But the precedence from all of the preceeding missions are that damaged ships can jump out so long as their drives are recharged. So you have 30 or so ships jump out no problem, and then at the most critical moment, a story-centric ship can't jump. You've established one precedence, and then contradicted it for the sake of the story. If previously you had other ships unable to jump due to damage it would set the precedence that most ships make it out, but sometimes they simply can't.

-Ships exploding-
On the subject of ships dying, you say you have a battle order and that in fact many ships were lost in that battle order. And that's cool, but the player doesn't know the battle order (unless maybe it's in the techroom). I think perhaps the problem is not that ships don't die, but that those ships aren't central to the mission. Sometimes stuff was happening in a mission and I didn't even know what was going on. The Agincourt mission for example. What were those Jovian cruisers doing? I assume they were supporting. But they jump in to left field, then apparently their AWACs dies, and then they die. But honestly the first time I played that mission I wasn't even aware they were there until the Medea started slaughtering them.

The ship I honestly cared the most about was the taskforce in the opening cinematic. Part of that is due to the music. But I feel the cinematic had a sense of drama that the rest of the campaign lacked. It's a very cliche sort of set up, someone taking themselves on a futile suicide run but shows desperation and sacrifice and I didn't find that same desperation in the campaign myself. I think it's easy to make a player care about a ship that has been around the whole time, they just get used to it. It's harder to make a character care about someone they know nothing about. So when you pull it off here it's good work. But in reference to the FS2 campaign, one of my most memorable moments was not the Colossus dying, or the Psamtik dying, or hell even the Galatea dying(FS1), it was the faceless Sobek in Capella defending a fleeing convoy from a Moloch and bomber wings. The player's first or 2nd mission in the Blue Lions and their thrown in, in media res into a mission and the first 10 seconds tells you its a desperate struggle and that thousands of vasudans just gave their lives to save thousand of other faceless people. Though of course that mission also has 3-4 acts of build-up behind it to support that moment.

I don't know, drama is hard to pull off, though you obviously pulled it off effectively with some players.

It might be the everyman approach taken with the campaign. Part of the problem for me with the Agincourt mission was that I wasn't part of the central action. All I did was:
1. Try to not die
2. Defend the AWACs
3. Call for Reinforcements
4. Take out an AWACs.

The player is certainly involved in the mission, but it's very much a supporting role. And when you're in the background, you're disconnected from the main action. So when the main action starts going, you have no real connection to it. For example, the mission starts off by introducing the Hood and the Serkr Team. But then player has no direct interaction with either one of them throughout the whole mission. The first time around I hadn't even known whether Serkr team left or were destroyed, had to hit F4 and check what happened because I was like "where did they go?". Obviously that's partly a VA thing as well. But not entirely.

I'm not saying the player has to be winning the war himself/herself. But if you're not directly connected to what's going on, why would you care? Those two Jovie cruisers might as well have been casualties listed in a debriefing for all it mattered to me. So far as I can tell their only purpose was to keep the Medea busy so it didn't immediately glass the Indus and Yangtzee.

EDIT - But you could have accomplished the same thing by having the Medea jump further out and then have everyone freak out about its slash beams as it came in to range on one of the flanks. It would have lacked the impressive entrance, but when you kill a bunch of guys I don't care about and/or didn't even know where there it's not as impressive (to me anyway).

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 02:53:11 pm
-The Yangtzee's jump drives failing-
I don't have a problem with a damaged ship not having it's drives working. That's fine and makes sense to me. But the precedence from all of the preceeding missions are that damaged ships can jump out so long as their drives are recharged. So you have 30 or so ships jump out no problem, and then at the most critical moment, a story-centric ship can't jump. You've established one precedence, and then contradicted it for the sake of the story. If previously you had other ships unable to jump due to damage it would set the precedence that most ships make it out, but sometimes they simply can't.

I agree it would've been a good idea to have a previous ship suffer a 'critical hit' of this sort. That's a fair point.

The notion here was that Maxim fire had penetrated the Yangtze's armor decks and specifically ripped up the jump drive, which doesn't normally happen in battle.

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On the subject of ships dying, you say you have a battle order and that in fact many ships were lost in that battle order. And that's cool, but the player doesn't know the battle order (unless maybe it's in the techroom). I think perhaps the problem is not that ships don't die, but that those ships aren't central to the mission. Sometimes stuff was happening in a mission and I didn't even know what was going on. The Agincourt mission for example. What were those Jovian cruisers doing? I assume they were supporting. But they jump in to left field, then apparently their AWACs dies, and then they die. But honestly the first time I played that mission I wasn't even aware they were there until the Medea started slaughtering them.

Yeah, that's something voice acting would help with, knowing that those cruisers are there.

As for the order of battle - don't confuse 'the player' with 'you, Akalabeth Angel, the player'.  :p We got a lot of complaints during testing that too many ships were dying, and on top of that we based this campaign in part on complaints from FreeSpace 2 that capships blew up too often there.

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But in reference to the FS2 campaign, one of my most memorable moments was not the Colossus dying, or the Psamtik dying, or hell even the Galatea dying(FS1), it was the faceless Sobek in Capella defending a fleeing convoy from a Moloch and bomber wings. The player's first or 2nd mission in the Blue Lions and their thrown in, in media res into a mission and the first 10 seconds tells you its a desperate struggle and that thousands of vasudans just gave their lives to save thousand of other faceless people. Though of course that mission also has 3-4 acts of build-up behind it to support that moment.

Again, something voice acting would help with - the Vatican in Darkest Hour does almost exactly that, refusing to withdraw in spite of imminent destruction. So too do the cruisers in mission 1, if badly battered.

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It might be the everyman approach taken with the campaign. Part of the problem for me with the Agincourt mission was that I wasn't part of the central action. All I did was:
1. Try to not die
2. Defend the AWACs
3. Call for Reinforcements
4. Take out an AWACs.

Expanding player agency is something we're looking at in R2. But again, the player is directly connected to what happens in that if they do not perform well (on medium+ difficulties), the mission will fail. So again, this is just a difference in how much you value a design goal. We very intentionally tried to place the player in the context of a team effort.

I mean your list of 4 items...those are some pretty key actions there. Calling in the reinforcements alone is more impact than a given soldier will ever likely have on a battle, and (today) is probably enough to win a pretty major medal.

I'm not saying you have to like it, a few other players have said they don't, and the story in R2 places the player in a situation where they get to have a much bigger impact on the course of battles.

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I'm not saying the player has to be winning the war himself/herself. But if you're not directly connected to what's going on, why would you care? Those two Jovie cruisers might as well have been casualties listed in a debriefing for all it mattered to me. So far as I can tell their only purpose was to keep the Medea busy so it didn't immediately glass the Indus and Yangtzee.

You can save them if you try hard enough, it's just very difficult. Again, feeling disconnected from the action is a risk we knew we were taking, and it's basically contingent upon whether the player is willing to accept being 'a grunt in the mud' rather than 'Alpha 1, the one and only competent pilot in the navy'.

There's always a fine line between 'dramatic realism' and 'fun'. If we had our way player killcounts would be exponentially lower, closer to real life where 5 kills is a crazy large number; but that wouldn't be very much fun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 03:23:29 pm
As for the order of battle - don't confuse 'the player' with 'you, Akalabeth Angel, the player'.  :p We got a lot of complaints during testing that too many ships were dying, and on top of that we based this campaign in part on complaints from FreeSpace 2 that capships blew up too often there.

Hmmn, playtesters should be more about mission balance and less about the story you're trying to tell. I don't know if those complaints were necessarily integrated into the campaign. Either way, just tell the story and don't try to please everyone. Heed Bill Cosby's advice.

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Again, something voice acting would help with - the Vatican in Darkest Hour does almost exactly that, refusing to withdraw in spite of imminent destruction. So too do the cruisers in mission 1, if badly battered.

Actually I probably enjoyed the Vatican mission more than some of the big dramatic ones at the end because I was directly involved in the mission. I was defending the Vatican (and convoy), so I was actually central to the mission as was the ship in question. Another one I cared about for example was the Kuiper belt installations in the 2nd to last mission. I lost that mission numerous times because I kept getting hit by TerSlashes, because I put myself between the Deimos and the station so I could more easily take out its beam cannons with Paveways in an effort to save those civies.

Another example might be Forced Entry, which I never played with VA btw. When I beat that mission I was in many ways an everyman as well. I sent wings to do certain jobs, and aside from the first two cruisers I didn't have a direct role in killing ships because I didn't have time. I just disabled their main beams and the fleet mopped up with their heavy firepower. I played a supporting role, albeit more integral, but was still directly involved in what was going on.

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You can save them if you try hard enough, it's just very difficult. Again, feeling disconnected from the action is a risk we knew we were taking, and it's basically contingent upon whether the player is willing to accept being 'a grunt in the mud' rather than 'Alpha 1, the one and only competent pilot in the navy'.

Well in the end I indirectly delayed their deaths by taking out one beam with Paveways but they still died.

As for Grunt in the mud. That's fine, and I both appreciate and have at times tried to emulate that same ideal. But just because you're a grunt doesn't mean you're not on the front lines.

The last mission was actually pretty good in this regard until the ending to my mind. Nice set up. Good backdrop. The player ran bomber defense. Then they had to disable enemy beam weapons. They were directly supporting the main action. But then the Imperieuse jumps in, the allied ships abandon their mission despite having it within grasp, and the player becomes less a participant of the action than a witness to it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 03:26:31 pm
For what it's worth I think one of my own complaints about R1 is that it doesn't let the player get her hands dirty often enough. I can promise R2 will alleviate that since the story setup allows the player to naturalistically assume a central role in a lot more of the missions, either as a critical strike element or a battlefield commander.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 19, 2010, 03:31:25 pm
As for the order of battle - don't confuse 'the player' with 'you, Akalabeth Angel, the player'.  :p We got a lot of complaints during testing that too many ships were dying, and on top of that we based this campaign in part on complaints from FreeSpace 2 that capships blew up too often there.

Hmmn, playtesters should be more about mission balance and less about the story you're trying to tell. I don't know if those complaints were necessarily integrated into the campaign. Either way, just tell the story and don't try to please everyone. Heed Bill Cosby's advice.

On the contrary. In a mod such as this, with the emphasis we put on storytelling, story feedback from external sources is absolutely critical. In the end, we didn't really alter the story we had, we just adressed specific issues that came up.

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the allied ships abandon their mission despite having it within grasp

Wrong. Once the Imperieuse showed up, the mission objective was unreachable, as General B tried to explain several times already. Just accept the fact that, within the confines of WiH, ramming doesn't always work, and that there is such a thing as a freak hit that can take out a jump drive.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 03:33:31 pm
Yeah, again, there was just no way they could take out the Carthage before the Imperieuse was on them. They could have parked themselves in her hangar bay one by one and self-destructed and it still probably wouldn't have done the job.

The Carthage was defanged and hardly a threat by that point anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 04:27:58 pm
the allied ships abandon their mission despite having it within grasp

Wrong. Once the Imperieuse showed up, the mission objective was unreachable, as General B tried to explain several times already. Just accept the fact that, within the confines of WiH, ramming doesn't always work, and that there is such a thing as a freak hit that can take out a jump drive.

I'll accept the fact that from the mission designer's perspective that the goal was unreachable and I'll maintain the fact that this player's perspective it was. Or put another way, I understand what you're trying to go for. I just don't buy the execution of it as a player. When the Imperieuse shows up and the fleet goes off to die I wasn't getting choked up, I was frowning and shaking my head. It was at that point that the campaign completely lost me and I pretty much ceased to care about anything that happened afterwards.

I understand what you're saying, and I understood what Battuta said in his very first post. But from my perspective in the mission you've got this: Six ships, including four frigates, within a click or 2 of the target. And then rather that throw everything they have at the target, including themselves. Four of those ships run off to face down some other destroyer knowing they'll die and knowing they probably won't do a damn thing. And they don't immediately die either, they blab about sacrifice and yadda yadda for a good minute, minute a half before they bite it. (EDIT - And not even that, but they're actively closing with the Imperieuse. Shortening their distance and their lifespans). So what, SIX heavy warships over a minute and a half can't take down an already damaged destroyer? I don't buy that for a minute.

What I WOULD have believed was if the six ships were on their final attack run and the Imperieuse jumps in and cuts through half of them in the opening volley and the others scatter and make a crash jump leaving the Yangtzee behind.

But the mission as it played out? No chance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 04:58:50 pm
the allied ships abandon their mission despite having it within grasp

Wrong. Once the Imperieuse showed up, the mission objective was unreachable, as General B tried to explain several times already. Just accept the fact that, within the confines of WiH, ramming doesn't always work, and that there is such a thing as a freak hit that can take out a jump drive.

I'll accept the fact that from the mission designer's perspective that the goal was unreachable and I'll maintain the fact that this player's perspective it was. Or put another way, I understand what you're trying to go for. I just don't buy the execution of it as a player. When the Imperieuse shows up and the fleet goes off to die I wasn't getting choked up, I was frowning and shaking my head. It was at that point that the campaign completely lost me and I pretty much ceased to care about anything that happened afterwards.

I understand what you're saying, and I understood what Battuta said in his very first post. But from my perspective in the mission you've got this: Six ships, including four frigates, within a click or 2 of the target. And then rather that throw everything they have at the target, including themselves. Four of those ships run off to face down some other destroyer knowing they'll die and knowing they probably won't do a damn thing. And they don't immediately die either, they blab about sacrifice and yadda yadda for a good minute, minute a half before they bite it. (EDIT - And not even that, but they're actively closing with the Imperieuse. Shortening their distance and their lifespans). So what, SIX heavy warships over a minute and a half can't take down an already damaged destroyer? I don't buy that for a minute.

*sigh*

Maybe you'll buy this.

We built this mission as an actual military operation. We carefully gamed out how long it would take the Wargods to destroy the Carthage by main force, timing it down to the second, by simply disabling the Imperieuse's arrival trigger and watching how long it took to shoot the Carthage apart. We have archived copies of the mission where that's exactly what happens: the Imperieuse never shows up, the Wargods win.

Believe me when I say the Carthage has as a lot of safety margin. Like, minutes worth. The Imperieuse could probably have run a while late and still saved the Carthage.

The only correct maneuver here is to try to close the range with the Imperieuse, get on her flanks, and blow her to pieces. And believe it or not that will work. We also have archived versions of the mission where the Wargods manage to do just that. That's the call Captain Genady made and it was the only right one: force the Imperieuse to engage the closest targets first, instead of what it logically would've done: shoot up the farthest, then work its way in.

In fact I want to pick out a particular misconception you have because it seems to underlie some of your problems here:

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(EDIT - And not even that, but they're actively closing with the Imperieuse. Shortening their distance and their lifespans)

Beam damage does not fall off with range. You are either in range and dead, or out of range and not dead, or out of arc and not dead. Get your ship onto the Imperieuse's broadside and you have a shot, or torpedo the forward beams (and being closer helps you do that better) and you have a shot.

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What I WOULD have believed was if the six ships were on their final attack run and the Imperieuse jumps in and cuts through half of them in the opening volley and the others scatter and make a crash jump leaving the Yangtzee behind.

This is not meaningfully different from what happens. The six ships are on their final attack run; the Imperieuse jumps in, they have no chance to escape (even scattering in six directions will only save two of them), the Imperieuse cuts through half of them in the opening volley which it would do no matter whether they attempted to close, attempted to retreat, or attempted to attack the Carthage, the survivors scatter.

I understand many of your objections but on this one you're just going up against objective fact. We actually played out all the scenarios you're trying to describe, so we know what really happened. In fact charging the Imperieuse is such a good idea that we had to give her special ECM cover and subsystem guardians to prevent the Wargods from sometimes getting lucky and murdering her, then turning back to finish the Carthage. And if you want to call that contrived, well then yes, guilty as charged.

Look, to wrap it up, I'm going to make it as simple as possible.

We gamed out every option here at the end of the mission. We tried every possible course of action to ensure there really was call for a big sacrifice. Seriously, when reading these, remember that we actually FREDded these outcomes and watched them play out.

If all the Wargods run, they all die; the Imperieuse and its escort (the Hydra?) take the farthest targets first and then pick off the stragglers.

If all the Wargods shoot at the Carthage, they will, almost always, all die before taking out the Carthage. That's right: six frigates, two cruisers, not enough. The Carthage is armored to hell and back.

If all the Wargods charge the Imperieuse they can sometimes get its forward beams (before we guardianed them) and proceed to kill her. This is very embarrassing, Steele would not be happy.

If some of the Wargods charge the Imperieuse they can sometimes - very rarely, VERY rarely, but if we hadn't armored and guardianed them it might be possible - get its forward beams and proceed to kill her. The two rear-echelon ships, however, are now guaranteed to make it out if they turn and run, because the Imperieuse needs to target the charging ships first to deal with the threat.

That's what our testing showed. We really wanted to make sure there was actual call for what happened in that mission, and while it's possible later balance adjustments ****ed with it, this is the foundation we proceeded from.

At the same time, this still represents a failure for us, because if the story didn't have you hooked by then to the point where you were willing to play by its rules, it means we failed to draw you in earlier. And while that's discouraging, of course, it's just the risk you run when you put something out there; there are always people who just don't find it to their taste.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 05:58:12 pm
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(EDIT - And not even that, but they're actively closing with the Imperieuse. Shortening their distance and their lifespans)

Beam damage does not fall off with range. You are either in range and dead, or out of range and not dead, or out of arc and not dead. Get your ship onto the Imperieuse's broadside and you have a shot, or torpedo the forward beams (and being closer helps you do that better) and you have a shot.

And yet, the Imperieuse doesn't fire for a good minute or more which suggests that the fleet was out of range. Because in previous missions, ships like Sekr and the Medea fired coming directly out of Subspace.

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What I WOULD have believed was if the six ships were on their final attack run and the Imperieuse jumps in and cuts through half of them in the opening volley and the others scatter and make a crash jump leaving the Yangtzee behind.

This is not meaningfully different from what happens. The six ships are on their final attack run; the Imperieuse jumps in, they have no chance to escape (even scattering in six directions will only save two of them), the Imperieuse cuts through half of them in the opening volley which it would do no matter whether they attempted to close, attempted to retreat, or attempted to attack the Carthage, the survivors scatter.

It is meaningfully different. In my example the fleet dies trying to achieve it's mission objective. In WiH the fleet dies abandoning it. Like if attacking the Imperieuse is the best option, then what are the Indus and Yangtzee doing? Why aren't they involved in the attack. Would not 66% or so more firepower help achieve that aim? Especially if victory is both viable, and worth the risk? (ie overwhelming victory).

See the player doesn't know how many hitpoints the Carthage has. They don't know how many hitpoints anything has. The only thing I remember is that Serkr was supposed to have special armour, but then three Serkr ships gets their butts kicked by a pair of frigates (with maybe some help from the Jovie cruisers). So their armour I guess wasn't all that special.

As far as I know the Carthage is an Orion with a fancy jump drive. Maybe it said something about armour, I don't know. Either way, another alternative might be for example to have the Indus and Yangtzee join the battle line and then only crash jump out when defeat is obvious. And have the captain say "we can't take the carthage down in time, our only option is to attack!" sorta thing. Maybe he says that, I was too busy shaking my head. But of course if the Indus joins it would allow the player to potentially muck things up, or to see that things are fixed and they can't do anything about it. So instead, the player has to run off, even with the hand-holding objective "stay close to Indus" because they might break the mission.

That's why having the Imperieuse jump in and scrag half the fleet before the player can even flinch is a better solution in my mind. It's like FS1. They always said the Lucifer was invulnerable, but really was it? The player never gets to even take a shot at it. It jumps in at 3 clicks, kills the Galatea, jumps out. Jumps in at 5 clicks, kills an Arcadia, jumps out. If the Imp jumps in, and kills half the dudes, it's clear to the player that "yeah, we really are screwed. Let's get out of here before those beams recharge". Doesn't give him a chance to do anything in return either.

That and brevity is the soul of wit. Having all that self-sacrifice dialogue by the Frigate captain can be arguably less effective than the Imperieuse just jumping in and blowing ships apart. Then after the Indus crash jumps out of there you do the slow truck out with the Yangtzee. The death of the other ships is quick and surprising, the death of the Yangtzee is long and drawn out. Good contrast.

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At the same time, this still represents a failure for us, because if the story didn't have you hooked by then to the point where you were willing to play by its rules, it means we failed to draw you in earlier. And while that's discouraging, of course, it's just the risk you run when you put something out there; there are always people who just don't find it to their taste.

The story had me hooked up until that point but that bit at the end I jumped off the hook and back into the water. I'm not saying the campaign wasn't necessarily to my taste. Sure I preferred AoA, sure I didn't always know what was going on but that's fine.  I was interested in it and playing it up until the end, then at the end the train went off the tracks. I'm only mentioning other things because the suspensions of disbelief was broken at the end. Had it not been, I probably would glaze over the things. All stories have flaws, the better the story, the more flaws you can accept. But the end to me broke the story.

Oh well. Good stuff anyway. We'll see what Part 2 offers.
Anyway, that's all I'm gonna say. Think I've expressed my objections to the story clearly enough.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 06:08:46 pm
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(EDIT - And not even that, but they're actively closing with the Imperieuse. Shortening their distance and their lifespans)

Beam damage does not fall off with range. You are either in range and dead, or out of range and not dead, or out of arc and not dead. Get your ship onto the Imperieuse's broadside and you have a shot, or torpedo the forward beams (and being closer helps you do that better) and you have a shot.

And yet, the Imperieuse doesn't fire for a good minute or more which suggests that the fleet was out of range. Because in previous missions, ships like Sekr and the Medea fired coming directly out of Subspace.

It was passing telemetry with the Carthage and taking no risks with its beam emitters. This isn't the kind of stuff a player who we've succeeded in hooking should be worrying about. We told you the Carthage had extra armor that was beam and torp-resistant, we established that frigates have pretty good onboard ECM, we did everything we could to avoid having to say it right in the moment. And for every player but you so far it's worked.

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What I WOULD have believed was if the six ships were on their final attack run and the Imperieuse jumps in and cuts through half of them in the opening volley and the others scatter and make a crash jump leaving the Yangtzee behind.

This is not meaningfully different from what happens. The six ships are on their final attack run; the Imperieuse jumps in, they have no chance to escape (even scattering in six directions will only save two of them), the Imperieuse cuts through half of them in the opening volley which it would do no matter whether they attempted to close, attempted to retreat, or attempted to attack the Carthage, the survivors scatter.

It is meaningfully different. In my example the fleet dies trying to achieve it's mission objective. In WiH the fleet dies abandoning it. Like if attacking the Imperieuse is the best option, then what are the Indus and Yangtzee doing? Why aren't they involved in the attack. Would not 66% or so more firepower help achieve that aim? Especially if victory is both viable, and worth the risk? (ie overwhelming victory).

Seriously. I just told you that we spent all this tame gaming it out. The presence of the Indus and Yangtze there is not all that helpful because they're so far back. They cannot meaningfully help.

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See the player doesn't know how many hitpoints the Carthage has. They don't know how many hitpoints anything has. The only thing I remember is that Serkr was supposed to have special armour, but then three Serkr ships gets their butts kicked by a pair of frigates (with maybe some help from the Jovie cruisers). So their armour I guess wasn't all that special.

Okay, this is getting absurd. They get their butts kicked because they can't hit anything with their main guns. C'mon, I enjoy the criticism but that kind of distortion is unfair.

And you're explicitly told the Carthage has special armor, right where you're told it has a fancy jump drive.

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And have the captain say "we can't take the carthage down in time, our only option is to attack!" sorta thing. Maybe he says that, I was too busy shaking my head.

See, I think this is the problem. I don't think we ever had a chance with you because we hadn't hooked you by there. And that's not your fault, it's ours.

But I gotta say it pisses me off a little to do something better than :V: and then get told it ruins the whole campaign for you. Because if you managed to enjoy the FreeSpace 2 campaign with 'Their Finest Hour' and the Colossus declaring it was going to stand and fight to buy time for the Bastion and then getting beamed to death about ten seconds later, I don't see why you're hung up here.

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But of course if the Indus joins it would allow the player to potentially muck things up, or to see that things are fixed and they can't do anything about it. So instead, the player has to run off, even with the hand-holding objective "stay close to Indus" because they might break the mission.

No, it would get the player killed, because we're smart enough to put steps in place to prevent the player from hitting the obvious scripted bits, like giving the Imperieuse a nigh-insuperable escort screen.

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That's why having the Imperieuse jump in and scrag half the fleet before the player can even flinch is a better solution in my mind. It's like FS1. They always said the Lucifer was invulnerable, but really was it? The player never gets to even take a shot at it. It jumps in at 3 clicks, kills the Galatea, jumps out. Jumps in at 5 clicks, kills an Arcadia, jumps out. If the Imp jumps in, and kills half the dudes, it's clear to the player that "yeah, we really are screwed. Let's get out of here before those beams recharge". Doesn't give him a chance to do anything in return either.

That and brevity is the soul of wit. Having all that self-sacrifice dialogue by the Frigate captain can be arguably less effective than the Imperieuse just jumping in and blowing ships apart. Then after the Indus crash jumps out of there you do the slow truck out with the Yangtzee. The death of the other ships is quick and surprising, the death of the Yangtzee is long and drawn out. Good contrast.

I'm sorry we didn't do it exactly the way you'd like. Please pardon us for wanting to avoid the instant beam-rape cliche as per our design objectives.  :rolleyes:

Your proposed solution is not one that works for us. And this is why. If the Imperieuse could jump in and sodomize everything in its path in an eyeblink it could have done that at any given time. It could probably have done it when the Wargods were sitting around in Mars orbit.

The Carthage was parked in a prepared killzone, gathering targeting data to pass to the Imperieuse to give it a clean beam shot, and even so the Imperieuse needed time to fight through the ECM, lock up its targets, make sure of its shots and take them. I'm sorry we didn't spoonfeed that to you, the player, but that would've made the sequence even longer.. Your suggestions would have destroyed the transition to Sunglare, rendered the entirety of Delenda Est into a big plot hole (why let the Wargods even get that close? Why not jump the Imperieuse in right away? They were waiting until they could be sure they could get them all.)

Look, you've got a whole (one mission!) minicampaign right there designed to explain why Captain Genady would rapidly and willingly sacrifice himself to save others. Go make use of it. Because like I said above, the double standard being applied here is starting to piss me off. Why bother setting up an elaborate mission with a carefully constructed trap and a separate minicampaign to explain the psychology of Captains Genady and Altan Orde when you could just, y'know, have the Imperieuse jump in and kill everything in .31 seconds?

Pardon my snark but there was a lot of effort put into this and hearing you say 'no, no, do it like this' is...not helping.

I can't say you're wrong, because of course your subjective opinion is valid, but this is just getting really frustrating for me as a creator, because there is nothing I will ever be able to do to address your complaints short of letting you make the mission. And that feels unfair.

I mean ****ing seriously. We simulate every possible mission outcome to make sure ours makes sense, we go to hours of unnecessary effort to get that done, and while of course the player can't know that you're not even willing to take that as evidence that we knew what we were doing?

Any creative effort is a gamble, and I'm okay with different opinions, but please do not tell us to do it your way over ours, because that suggests we were simply incompetent rather than making a choice. There's no FreeSpace moment that's worked less for me than the Lucifer's various insta-kill beam ambushes; they just made me giggle. We really wanted to avoid that.

Probably getting a bit worked up here. Must chill.  :blah:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on October 19, 2010, 06:29:35 pm
Would you like a kitten picture?

(http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/kittenlove.jpg)

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 06:42:36 pm
Quote
See the player doesn't know how many hitpoints the Carthage has. They don't know how many hitpoints anything has. The only thing I remember is that Serkr was supposed to have special armour, but then three Serkr ships gets their butts kicked by a pair of frigates (with maybe some help from the Jovie cruisers). So their armour I guess wasn't all that special.

Okay, this is getting absurd. They get their butts kicked because they can't hit anything with their main guns. C'mon, I enjoy the criticism but that kind of distortion is unfair.

And you're explicitly told the Carthage has special armor, right where you're told it has a fancy jump drive.

I'm talking specifically about armour here. Both the Carthage and Serkr have special armour.

Serkr, when unable to fight, did not stand up long against 2 Fed Frigates
Carthage, when unable to fight, therefore should not stand up long against 4 Fed Frigates and 2 Cruisers.

Assuming that the special armour is comparative. Maybe the Carthage has extra special armour. It's not uncommon for corvettes or even cruisers to have hitpoints comparable to a destroyer. I don't have a clue what the hitpoints are. All I know is that 3 ships didn't take long to flee from 2 ships, so why would 1 ship survive long against 6?

Quote
But I gotta say it pisses me off a little to do something better than :V: and then get told it ruins the whole campaign for you. Because if you managed to enjoy the FreeSpace 2 campaign with 'Their Finest Hour' and the Colossus declaring it was going to stand and fight to buy time for the Bastion and then getting beamed to death about ten seconds later, I don't see why you're hung up here.

It doesn't ruin the whole campaign. Just that mission. It doesn't make the rest of the campaign any less enjoyable, the things that bug me about it are just more apparent. Heck I could probably play through most of that mission, still have fun, until the last minute or so.

Quote
I'm sorry we didn't do it exactly the way you'd like. Please pardon us for wanting to avoid the instant beam-rape cliche as per our design objectives.  :rolleyes:

Instant beam-rape cliche, or futile charge for nothing cliche, take your pick.
I pick the former.

Quote
Your proposed solution is not one that works for us. And this is why. If the Imperieuse could jump in and sodomize everything in its path in an eyeblink it could have done that at any given time. It could probably have done it when the Wargods were sitting around in Mars orbit.

The Carthage was parked in a prepared killzone, gathering targeting data to pass to the Imperieuse to give it a clean beam shot, and even so the Imperieuse needed time to fight through the ECM, lock up its targets, make sure of its shots and take them. I'm sorry we didn't spoonfeed that to you, the player, but that would've made the sequence even longer.. Your suggestions would have destroyed the transition to Sunglare, rendered the entirety of Delenda Est into a big plot hole (why let the Wargods even get that close? Why not jump the Imperieuse in right away? They were waiting until they could be sure they could get them all.)

And yet they didn't get them all.
There's all manner of ways to do it, all I'm saying is that the way it was done didn't work for me. You could have just as easily had the Carthage getting data on them from the get go, with better data the closer they are. Then soon as the Imp jumps out of subspace, she transfers that over and the Imp fires. If you wanted to take it one direction you can make up all manner of reasons why that would work and another approach would not, same as someone could do just the opposite. If that's the way you wanted the mission to end you'll achieve that end by whatever provides a suitable means to that end.

Quote
Look, you've got a whole (one mission!) minicampaign right there designed to explain why Captain Genady would rapidly and willingly sacrifice himself to save others.

Is that Blade of whatever? I thought that was just a one-off test mission. And all I got from that campaign was that he was willing to sacrifice an Arcadia full of civies for the sake of the military assuming I'm thinking of the right character. I can take another look at it sometime though.

Quote
Go make use of it. Because like I said above, the double standard being applied here is starting to piss me off. Why bother setting up an elaborate mission with a carefully constructed trap and a separate minicampaign to explain the psychology of Captains Genady and Altan Orde when you could just, y'know, have the Imperieuse jump in and kill everything in .31 seconds?

Pardon my snark but there was a lot of effort put into this and hearing you say 'no, no, do it like this' is...not helping.

I can't say you're wrong, because of course your subjective opinion is valid, but this is just getting really frustrating for me as a creator, because there is nothing I will ever be able to do to address your complaints short of letting you make the mission. And that feels unfair.

Believe me when I say I understand how much work can go into a mission, it's not my intent to devalue the blood sweat and tears that went into the quality of the campaign. A quality that I'd aspire to and a quality that far outweighs any of my previous personal efforts.

But any artist who puts their work out there has to be prepared to take criticism. In my case, I simply don't like one ASPECT of the campaign, that being the ending. I can still appreciate it for its other virtues. The other quibbles about ships jumping out all the time are more nitpicks than anything, and I understand your intent in doing that. Oh I don't like the Solaris either, because it killed what should have been a climactic end to an otherwise important mission. If it killed the frame rate for other people as much as it did for me, it should've been cut from the mission and replaced imo.

You can't please everyone all the time. You pleased me most of the time, so that should be good enough. When I'm giving you examples of how it might have played out, I'm not telling you how to do it. I'm just saying "this didn't work for me, but if it were like this, it would have". Not "you should've done this, you suxxxor!!!!!".

Not everyone likes the same thing. For example some people love Transcend, I thought it was a repetitive bore fest. But I had fun playing Sync. We're all just playing and/or modding this game because we like it. So if you play a campaign and enjoy most or even some of it that's all you can ask for. And I got as much from WiH.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 06:46:03 pm
That's fair.

Obviously as someone who does creative stuff I understand that everything can be improved, almost ad infinitum. There's always something wrong and it's always going to catch somebody's eye. It's just frustrating to be told it threw people out of the campaign, because it means we didn't quite do a good enough job, y'know? Even if it works for 99% of players it's the one that gets away that's going to rankle at you.

But I still think you have to admit it's infinitely better than Her Finest Hour. Also:

Quote
And yet they didn't get them all.

Yes, because most of the Wargods sacrificed themselves to prevent it, which was the design goal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 07:07:35 pm
Obviously as someone who does creative stuff I understand that everything can be improved, almost ad infinitum. There's always something wrong and it's always going to catch somebody's eye. It's just frustrating to be told it threw people out of the campaign, because it means we didn't quite do a good enough job, y'know? Even if it works for 99% of players it's the one that gets away that's going to rankle at you.

If you serve everyone chocolate pudding there'll always be some person who wanted lemon.

Again, most of my comments are not a 'you should do it this way' but rather 'I might have enjoyed it this way instead'. Take it or leave it. Just trying to elaborate or say something more than "I didn't like the ending"

Quote
But I still think you have to admit it's infinitely better than Her Finest Hour.

Apples and Oranges.
A mission is only as good as it fits/serves within the context of its story. In that way simple missions like one might find in Homesick can be more interesting than a complex mission in another campaign with a poor story. Point being, look at your work on its own, and at each piece in how it relates to the whole. Comparing it to predecessors or other campaigns should be completely secondary to considering how well it achieves what you set out to achieve. If a lot of people experience it, and if most people enjoy it, and if even some people say it surpasses previous campaigns like AoA or FS2 then consider it a victory.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 19, 2010, 07:14:50 pm
Indeed, each to their own. I personally liked the deviation from the usual way FSO campaigns are told. I think that with BP's genre and style of storytelling a movie-like approach was taken: unlikely events pile up to bring the protagonist into deep trouble against all odds. For some that is a turn off, for others such as me it turned this campaign into a space opera rather than just a gameplay experience. :) I'm glad people have different opinions, or this world would sure be a boring place if we all always agree. :D

Would you like a kitten picture?

 :wakka:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 19, 2010, 11:08:06 pm
Hmmn, not to re-stir up a hornet's nest (and more importantly not to piss anyone off- - - again) and there's no need to reply to this, but as an addenum, I take it back. That is my specific reason for disliking the ending.

Having had time to ponder it on my 40 minute walk/transit home, if it helps understanding that 1%, I don't think my problem was with the mission design specifically. It was just with the story in general. Aside from a mission here and there (ie saving civies, defeating the SOC), the Wargods and/or the player never really get a victory the whole campaign long. Lost ships die. Agincourt's taken away. Logistics hole filled. Elder dies second before relaying info. Vasudans duped. Two Hecates get away, said to be back in a "few weeks". Hell even the rescue op some uffie comes in and fouls it up. And then of course the final mission. I guess the intent was to have most people feel sad. Or to get pissed. Well I got pissed, but not at steele, just at the story. It was too much, and I just stopped caring. I think I literally said, "Whatever, this is stupid.". To have so much happen and for nothing to go in their favour? Riiiiight. Anyone ever heard "the best laid plans never survive contact with the enemy?" Steel never heard it apparently. And then to put the icing on the cake the Yangtzee can't make it out, and Karen sticks around to die. And then to put more icing on the cake the Indus is doomed, and everyone is dying, and simms is dead and Noemi waited 5 second too long to say she loved her. I suppose you can also throw in the Vasudans have a miltary force insystem now too but I didn't bother. At that point there was so much icing on the cake I couldn't see the screen.

But yeah, my apologizes for the previous argument (and for the touch of sarcasm in this post). I knew I didn't like the ending, but I often start arguing before I know what my reason is. In this case I wasn't clear on the details of why I didn't like it. Some of the other stuff I touched on does play a role, like ships escaping to be repaired in a few weeks not counting as a real victory for example.

And as I said before, I did for the most part enjoy the campaign before it went off the rails for me. With a few bumps here and there maybe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 19, 2010, 11:10:49 pm
Well bear in mind what you've played is basically Empire right up to the point where Luke gets his hand chopped off and falls into a pit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Molybdenum on October 20, 2010, 12:05:51 am
, the Wargods and/or the player never really get a victory the whole campaign long.

How is getting the Agincourt not a victory? It just ends up getting used in operations instead of RnD at Earth. The missions prior to Delenda Est were basically a ALFA OEN WINFEST. You could save any and all ships. Delenda Est did a good job in popping that feeling of making a difference and leaving a withered husk.

"the best laid plans never survive contact with the enemy?"

This applies more to the TeVs, thier plan was based on one person's psych profile. While they were at it they could have double the intel on Steele an find how much he likes bait and switch tactics.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 20, 2010, 07:13:36 am
Tev plans seem to work perfectly almost every time, or Steele just has **** loads of contingencies... :mad:

Just to say it...
I actually disobeyed orders my first playthrough of Delenda est and charged head on into the the Imperius.
Needless to say I was plastered by the amount of flak, beams and fighters it had.  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on October 20, 2010, 07:26:43 am
Good thing I didn't answer as well, yesterday. I already had an answer half done when I had to abandon ship, so to speak. It was embarrissingly sloppy and full of half-remembered facts compared to Battuta.

I guess why I didn't have a problem at all with "losing" throughout the campaign is mainly, that it is WiH part 1, so as for the dramatic arc it is fitting to end at the moment of highest peril and greatest loss. Maybe part 2 will work better for you, who knows?

But I get where you're coming from, and I think we all just have to accept that your taste and the overall design of the campaign are just different.

Also, Steele's plans do work out so well because when you face it - even with the Indus, Steele is a hardened bastard, and the UEF are a bit naïve. The assassination, the perceived chance for victory, everything laid out perfectly to play with their emotions in a game that needs clear thinking above all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2010, 08:10:40 am
Not to mention the mole in the UEF. Useful for calibrating your contingencies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 20, 2010, 12:59:52 pm
Well bear in mind what you've played is basically Empire right up to the point where Luke gets his hand chopped off and falls into a pit.

No I understand what you're doing here. You're turning Noemi into a jaded character, a bloodthirsty fanatic who will make even the fanatics of the Fedayeen look like pansies and in part 2 she'll kill loads of Tevs and she'll like it and at the end of her arc she'll either die lost because she needs to die, or she'll find some way to redeem herself and regain that part of herself that is currently dead and buried.

That's cool, and a decent story. But to have everything not go their way, it's too much. It's just overdone. Their own government screws them. Steele screws them. Even fate and circumstance screws them. For example, the Altan Orde sacrificing herself to save the Indus and Yangtzee. One minor victory for the good guys in the face of total defeat. But oh wait, the Yangtzee can't jump out. So she dies. Then the Indus makes a crash jump, but oh wait, she's right by the sun, and crippled, so everyone onboard is dead or dying. Including Simms. Then Noemi tries to make the best of a bad situation and confess her feelings, but Simm dies right before she tells her. And make no mistake people, Simms is dead. Dead like dinner.

And I understand the allusion to Empire, but even Empire had good moments. The Rebels had minor victories, they had good moments here and there. Like I say, I'm not saying it was a bad story, or a bad idea, it was just over done. For example, Leia tells Han she loves him BEFORE he's frozen. In WiH, Noemi is seconds too late with Simms. The elder is seconds too late with Noemi (which btw was so obvious. Transferring a high level official 5 clicks in an escape pod? Yeah she's so going to die).

I don't mind fighting a losing war. Nor do I mind a sad ending. (heck my own campaign had a sad ending). But when their own government, the tevs and even fate and circumstance conspire against them at every turn it's too much. It stopped being believable for me. It was so obviously scripted that I was taken out of the story. There has to be at least a bit of give and take.

How is getting the Agincourt not a victory? It just ends up getting used in operations instead of RnD at Earth.

Because 2nd fleet doesn't get the Agincourt. They score a victory, but a pyrhic one. Their own government shafts them and takes it to use in some research project you never see and that doesn't do anything. And any harm they did to the Tevs is immediately erased when the Vasudans bring in their own ships. They dont' kill Serkr, they don't kill the Hood. This is an 18month war, and ships any ship out for a few "weeks" is inconsequential. From what GB said the Hydra's even in the last mission. The ship they failed to kill come backs to kill them in the end. Basically they did all that for nothing.

Even stopping the Hecate. I don't remember the name. Some Hecate bombs luna, they drive it off and score a victory but oh wait. Circumstance conspires again because now Steele has secured command and he's a better opponent and the damage to Luna is still done and the Hecate will be back in a few weeks.

I may be forgetting some, but the only victories I can remember are saving the civies. Oh and then we stopped a bomb, that was going to be used, to, blow up SOMETHING SOMEWHERE. And then we stop the SOC from rescuing SOMEONE for SOMETHING. Are those victories? Maybe but they mean nothing to me. Or another mission, we save some orbital platform over Earth, but it means nothing because the logistics are all boned across the system and the uffies are still screwed.

Heck even rejuvenating Simms spirit. You save her from depression, but by the end her spirits dead again. And she's pushing you away. And then she's dead for real.

Or the Truce mission. That kind of thing happens in war. We've heard about WW1 the troops in both trenches singing Silent night together, or playing soccer on New Years, or a truce in a French town in WW2 and everyone's gathered around the piano. And they have their truce, they go back to their lines, and then they kill each other. But in WiH, even the true is ruined. Not by tevs, or feds, but by fate and circumstance. Ship comes in, doesn't know what's going on, fires for the heck of it. Oh moment ruined. Why not just have that tender moment, give that bit of hope, and then fight those guys in a later mission.

None of these ideas are bad on their own, but when it keeps getting piled on and on and on the huge pile of bad fortune just breaks it for me.

Quote
The missions prior to Delenda Est were basically a ALFA OEN WINFEST. You could save any and all ships. Delenda Est did a good job in popping that feeling of making a difference and leaving a withered husk.

I don't know what the winfest was. Only mission I remember prior to the end was the elder dying, and the mission before Delenda Est. That mission of course being set up for the big ambush. So again, no victory. If there are some genuine tangible victories let me know.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2010, 01:22:54 pm
We looked a lot at the experience of being in the Imperial Japanese Navy circa 1943-1944.

If you consider that 'too obviously scripted' then take it up with God or whoever runs history. Sorry the story was too grimdark for you, but again this comes down to personal taste.

On the factual level I think you're gaming the ambiguities here. You pick out the negative consequences of each 'victory' to show that it wasn't a victory at all, but you fail to note enemy materiel destroyed, time gained, offensives delayed, elite pilots downed, critical stations saved. There are no pure wins, sure, but there aren't that many pure losses either.

It's a story about fighting off defeat. But that's happened a lot in history, to a lot of people in a lot of armies. And until you have the full story you can't expect all the consequences of events in Act 1 to be apparent.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 20, 2010, 01:58:50 pm
Akalabeth Angel, I think by now everyone knows (very in depth) what you don't like about WiH1 and why. Repeating it another few times won't change anyones opinion and will only clutter up the thread.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 20, 2010, 02:02:24 pm
We looked a lot at the experience of being in the Imperial Japanese Navy circa 1943-1944.

You mean the two years of the Pacific war in which there were no major naval battles?

Quote
If you consider that 'too obviously scripted' then take it up with God or whoever runs history. Sorry the story was too grimdark for you, but again this comes down to personal taste.

Exactly. It's personal tastes. I'm just explaining why it doesn't fit my personal taste so you can understand that 1% that got away. I do however appreciate how with any criticism of your campaign you blame the critic, and not the campaign. In the same way you blamed spoon way back when. And probably did the same to other people. Clearly here the problem with my experience here is me and not the experience.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2010, 02:12:16 pm
We looked a lot at the experience of being in the Imperial Japanese Navy circa 1943-1944.

You mean the two years of the Pacific war in which there were no major naval battles?

May dates may have been slightly off.  :nervous: Basically the bits where they were getting their asses kicked. An absurd percentage of their fleet was lost.

Quote
Exactly. It's personal tastes. I'm just explaining why it doesn't fit my personal taste so you can understand that 1% that got away. I do however appreciate how with any criticism of your campaign you blame the critic, and not the campaign. In the same way you blamed spoon way back when. And probably did the same to other people. Clearly here the problem with my experience here is me and not the experience.

I know that, and I've posted exactly to that effect several times. It's not a matter of apportioning blame, and the examples you picked here are ironically self-defeating - Spoon and I work together pretty closely and his feedback on R1 pretty much echoed, in a much milder sense, my own criticisms of it, the point where all the changes he suggested were already in our plans for R2.

Like I've said several times, you're not going to find a harsher critic of the campaign than me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on October 20, 2010, 06:52:34 pm
Alkabeth, if I may point out again, half of your gripes with WiH are all set to be explained/wrapped up in R2.  Like the Agincourt, or the Vasudans.  Seriously, complaining that those parts of the story weren't "wrapped up" entirely in the first half isn't exactly valid criticism.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2010, 07:25:07 pm
Let's just move on. Everyone's entitled to their own opinions. Ultimately the experience of a campaign is a negotiation between the campaign itself and the player.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 20, 2010, 08:07:33 pm
How many downloads does WiH have by now?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2010, 08:10:50 pm
That's an excellent question. I'd guess not too many more than last time (doubt we've broken 10,000) but we can try to tally it up again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on October 21, 2010, 05:14:04 pm
   When I gave it first thought, I imagined Admiral Steele's 'Serker team' to be undefeatable by the UEF. They jump in and annihilate pretty much any warships, their point defense systems turn back whole squadrons of heavy bombers, and if they are in trouble their jump systems quickly recharge and they're gone. If I were Admiral Calder, i'd call it and wave the white flag. Luckily for the UEF, i'm not Admiral Calder.

Recently, after reading the 'What the heck is the point if the GTVA just jumps?' posts on this thread I have been trying to imagine scenarios where Serker team would get scrapped by UEF forces...

Scenario 1:
UEF baits Serker team with a Karuna frigate, holding two artillery frigates in reserve to jump in the instant Serker team arrives. The Karuna is sacrificed (hopefully with a light crew) and Serker team is pounded to kingdom come before they can charge their drives and escape (hopefully).

Scenario 2:
Fighter squadrons loaded with paveways  are kept on reserve in cockpit flying one tactical jump from suspected targets of Serker team. The instant a subspace vector is detected, the strike team jumps in from behind and disables as many members of Serker team as possible before they escape. A warship strike force of perhaps 1 Karuna or 2 Sanctus, jumps in behind Serker team and destroys them in their disabled state. Hopefully subspace jumps are accurately calculated by an AWACS or another friendly warship in sector, and hopefully the GTVA is dry on reinforcements.
 
Scenario 3:
The UEF pours resources into development of anti-subspace combat tactics, allowing ships to track and hunt down ships in subspace just as in freespace1 with the Lucifer. Hopefully the UEF will have reverse engineered Alpha1's (fs1 Alpha1) fighter to first discover this technology some 60 years ago. If Serker team extends itself too far away from the fleet, a heavy strike team of jumptrack equipped bombers jumps in after Serker team to hound them until they perish. This might require multiple squadrons of bombers with fighter escort to alternate their harassment and whittle the corvettes down, but at least Serker team has nowhere to hide. Hopefully nowhere to run as well.
   
   These are tactics for Serker team. I haven't even considered the GTD Atrius. It seems like that ship does not even need to be in the area to attack, vectoring in subspace missiles via AWACS like in 'Darkest hour'. Someone mentioned a submarine striking from the depths of subspace? That's quite demoralizing for the UEF.

   "This war will never be won by force of arms. It may not be won at all. We need more time... " - Admiral Robert Byrne

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 21, 2010, 05:24:21 pm
You could also starve them for fuel and force them to make more careful, efficient jumps. Good luck with that, though!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 21, 2010, 05:37:29 pm
Or lure them into an asteroid or debris field (or similar clustered obstacles) and blow a load of hidden anti-matter mines up in their face.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 21, 2010, 06:50:28 pm
Well... the last mission of the Agincort arc shows that they can be beat. Block their beam targeting with an AWACS, send in some gunships and/or fighters to destroy the engines and then even a single Karuna is enough to take them out.
But due to story purposes that mission had the engine systems of those three ships protected, to make sure they are still alive later in the campaign I guess.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on October 21, 2010, 07:34:13 pm
In a way, everything depends on disabling their engines fast enough. If you can achieve that, it should be easy to blindside them with a frigate or even cruiser when you have the time. Block their communications to make sure they don't get reinforcements for bonus points.

Basically many Shivan and next-gen GTVA ships should be vulnerable to that. Unfortunately it isn't really an easy thing to do.

The minefield idea is also very interesting. I think Minefields are underused in the FS Universe, and I sometimes wonder why. Sure, in open space mine fields are useless, because space is far too huuuuuge, but in FS, with subspace nodes... It seems there should be minefields in frontier systems of the Terran-Vasudan war and Minefields laid during retreat from Shivan forces all the time.

Maybe no one wants to risk never being able to use the mined node ever again, but still, it seems strange that it isn't really used as a tactic all the time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 21, 2010, 08:01:31 pm
Passive detonation mines are not always that great. Mines that shoot back, CAPTOR-style - now there's something!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on October 21, 2010, 10:15:46 pm
What about missile pods ? Fighter sized pods, without shields, which fire apocalypse missiles (8 at the same time for example, but only for 3 reload cycles). They would be deployed like mines, by mine layers. I took this ideas from Honor Harrington books ;)
It would be a bit like GTVA beam pods in retail, used to blocade a node aginst NTF, but in a more terran style.
It could look good, deployed in big geometric forms, lights blinking all at the same time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 21, 2010, 10:56:29 pm
Passive detonation mines are not always that great. Mines that shoot back, CAPTOR-style - now there's something!

Is that the same as a sentry with the kamikaze flag?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: thedjstu on October 21, 2010, 11:10:52 pm
you could make a case for auto-targeting mjolnir platforms being mine-ish, which brings me to the "why are there not 20 of them around each node) thought.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 21, 2010, 11:30:25 pm
Passive detonation mines are not always that great. Mines that shoot back, CAPTOR-style - now there's something!

Is that the same as a sentry with the kamikaze flag?

No. Not at all.

you could make a case for auto-targeting mjolnir platforms being mine-ish, which brings me to the "why are there not 20 of them around each node) thought.

How do you know there aren't? Well not each node, but there are certain obvious firebreaks where there are going to be a ton of these things.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on October 22, 2010, 12:27:50 am
Passive detonation mines are not always that great. Mines that shoot back, CAPTOR-style - now there's something!

Is that the same as a sentry with the kamikaze flag?
When bad guys come near, the mine 'splodes launching a (swarm of) torpedo(es) at the target.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on October 22, 2010, 02:09:21 am
Man, this is looking pretty scary. Sentries with trebs, mines.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on October 22, 2010, 10:40:25 pm
Just thought I'd point this out - the way the event for the Tevs going hostile in "What Binds Us" is set up (i.e. before the other frigate arrives) sometimes means that it can spontaneiously trigger if (I believe) the Scorpio fighters collide with something (looking at the mission file, I do not believe any of the other triggers - i.e. with the Sampson or Arethusa - were set off). I was just replaying the mission and it happened again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 22, 2010, 11:17:45 pm
Just thought I'd point this out - the way the event for the Tevs going hostile in "What Binds Us" is set up (i.e. before the other frigate arrives) sometimes means that it can spontaneiously trigger if (I believe) the Scorpio fighters collide with something (looking at the mission file, I do not believe any of the other triggers - i.e. with the Sampson or Arethusa - were set off). I was just replaying the mission and it happened again.

It should be based on shield quad strength. Collision damage shouldn't do it.

Unless it's using get-damage-caused instead of the shield setup?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on October 22, 2010, 11:45:06 pm
Code: [Select]
$Formula: ( when
   ( and
      ( is-event-incomplete
         "new arrival music change"
      )
      ( or
         ( shield-quad-low "Scorpio 1" 50 )
         ( shield-quad-low "Scorpio 2" 50 )
         ( shield-quad-low "Scorpio 3" 50 )
         ( shield-quad-low "Scorpio 4" 50 )
         ( < ( hits-left "Arethusa" ) 95 )
         ( < ( hits-left "Sampson" ) 95 )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Arethusa"
               "Engines"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Arethusa"
               "Turrets"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Arethusa"
               "Navigation"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Arethusa"
               "Communications"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Arethusa"
               "Weapons"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Arethusa"
               "Sensors"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Sampson"
               "Engines"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Sampson"
               "Turrets"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Sampson"
               "Navigation"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Sampson"
               "Communications"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Sampson"
               "Weapons"
            )
            95
         )
         ( <
            ( hits-left-subsystem-generic
               "Sampson"
               "Sensors"
            )
            95
         )
      )
   )
   ( play-sound-from-file "vergil.ogg" 1 )
   ( unprotect-ship
      "Indus"
      "Arethusa"
      "Scorpio 1"
      "Scorpio 2"
      "Scorpio 3"
      "Scorpio 4"
      "Alpha 1"
      "Alpha 2"
      "Alpha 3"
      "Beta 1"
      "Beta 2"
   )
   ( turret-free-all "Indus" )
   ( turret-free-all "Littman" )
   ( turret-free-all "Arethusa" )
   ( turret-free-all "Sampson" )
   ( unlock-primary-weapon
      "Alpha 1"
      "Alpha 3"
      "Scorpio 1"
      "Scorpio 2"
      "Scorpio 3"
      "Scorpio 4"
   )
   ( unlock-secondary-weapon
      "Alpha 1"
      "Alpha 3"
      "Scorpio 1"
      "Scorpio 2"
      "Scorpio 3"
      "Scorpio 4"
   )
   ( change-iff-color
      "Friendly"
      "Hostile"
      255
      0
      0
      "Scorpio"
      "Arethusa"
      "Sampson"
   )
   ( change-soundtrack "<No Music>" )
   ( ship-no-guardian "Scorpio 1" )
)
+Name: ceasefire broken
+Repeat Count: 1
+Interval: 1
+Team: 0

All I know really is that it triggered without me doing anything. I was just sitting somewhere above the Pesedjet and they suddenly went hostile.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2010, 12:17:04 am
It's been an infrequent issue with the mission for a while. Unclear why.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on October 25, 2010, 05:43:21 am
I hope you don't mind me finding stuff like this... :nervous:

If you neglect to destroy the Vedda in "My Brother, My Enemy", it will dock with the Dea Icaunis (almost destroying the Mosaic with its Balor turret in the process), and then if you proceed to destroy it, it will attempt to jump out and take the Dea Icaunis with it!

(http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7530/screen0105w.png)

I know you're supposed to destroy or make it jump out before this happens, so it's not a big deal, but thought I'd point it out anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 25, 2010, 07:11:31 am
ahahahahaha

ahahahahahahahahahahaha

This is so awesome I don't think we should patch it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 25, 2010, 09:25:17 am
I remember these kind of moments happening in Awakenings. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 25, 2010, 09:27:36 am
This is all part of a desperate SOC plan.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 25, 2010, 09:31:08 am
The slow moving vessels throw off the aim of the UEF pilots.

Fact.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 25, 2010, 09:48:17 am
I guess it's taking the concept of 'human shield' to extreme proportions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on October 25, 2010, 10:28:11 am
That's a pretty amazing jump...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 25, 2010, 10:51:44 am
I've seen them haul away entire Arcadia stations. :P But I guess someone can always grab the Atreus with an unmanned transport vessel and jump into the sun. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 25, 2010, 01:41:39 pm
Imagine if a Centaur hauled a Solaris away... :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 25, 2010, 01:45:19 pm
Or all it'd have taken to safe Capella were 62 Elysium transports. :P

Ahem anyway, maybe this is derailing. Sorry.

Spoiler:
Did anyone actually kill the Sathy yet in the last full mission without cheating?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 25, 2010, 01:48:16 pm
It's not easy. Conventional weapons will do nothing against it once its hull integrity is 1%. Only a weapon with the "-big damage" flag can destroy it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on October 25, 2010, 04:01:14 pm
Isn't the Archer big-flaged ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 25, 2010, 04:03:57 pm
Isn't the Archer big-flaged ?

I don't think so. The Archer does however use a special weapons flag which was implemented specifically for it. At least it does if I recall right.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 25, 2010, 04:14:07 pm
The Archer does have the "huge" flag, so it can be used to kill big ships. It also has the "capital+" flag, which stops the AI from using it against Fighters and Bombers (Which it previously would do, not knowing that the Archer is basically useless against Fighters due to being a "puncture" weapon)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on October 25, 2010, 05:33:22 pm
Spoiler:
How do you even survive ten seconds against the Sathanas in that mission?  It's main guns are replaced by 4 Ultra AAAfs, and each time I've made it jump in, those beams just shredded me.

Also, I'm really looking forward to some bomber missions in WIH2.  I remember reading on the BP website that the Durga was considered "excessive" by the council.  Then when I saw the Vajrahada in the tech room, my first thought was, if the Durga is excessive, then what the hell is this thing? :eek:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on October 25, 2010, 07:34:14 pm
Just right. No such thing as 'excessive firepower'
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on October 25, 2010, 09:30:25 pm
Spoiler:
How do you even survive ten seconds against the Sathanas in that mission?  It's main guns are replaced by 4 Ultra AAAfs, and each time I've made it jump in, those beams just shredded me.



Which mission was this again? I dont remember that in AoA having Ultras......
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 25, 2010, 09:34:30 pm
Spoiler:
How do you even survive ten seconds against the Sathanas in that mission?  It's main guns are replaced by 4 Ultra AAAfs, and each time I've made it jump in, those beams just shredded me.


Which mission was this again? I dont remember that in AoA having Ultras......

Start Delenda Est. ~-K the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: blowfish on October 25, 2010, 09:53:22 pm
Spoiler:
How do you even survive ten seconds against the Sathanas in that mission?  It's main guns are replaced by 4 Ultra AAAfs, and each time I've made it jump in, those beams just shredded me.

Well you're cheating anyway, so you might as well make yourself invulnerable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 26, 2010, 04:26:20 am
Spoiler:
But better be fast at if, because the event that makes the Sath appear also deactivated the Invul cheat, if you had it on before destroying the Carthage!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 26, 2010, 08:01:46 am
Spoiler:
Should've made it an every-time.  :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on October 26, 2010, 09:37:24 am
Well at least he didn't assassinate the Elder.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: djmindcrasher on October 26, 2010, 10:44:36 am
I've just finished playing. It was amazing! Gorgeus! Wonderful and unbelievable achhhhh:D So many entirely new ideas (choosing lines like in RPG's, Luna city, SSM's), so real atmosphere... When Colossus with 80.000 crew blew up I didn't feel death so much l felt when in WiH an ordinary cruiser was destroyed...
And beautiful music, especially in Noemi's diary.
I thought after AoA nothing can match its epicness and playability and now I know that continuation is even better! Despite it's first Freespace mod I had to lower level of graphic details and sometimes even a resolution of screen. Darius, General Battuta, do you realise it'd better and interesting than more of commercial sold games nowadays and has better plot than space opera movies? I'm sure you gave lot of effort into this project.
It would be really hard do VA it, but game deserves it.
In the end I have one tricky question, maybe my dirty imagination has fun of me:
Spoiler:
Are Noemi and Lorna lesbian?:D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on October 26, 2010, 11:01:27 am
Spoiler:
Are Noemi and Lorna lesbian?:D
I thought it was pretty obvious. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 26, 2010, 12:19:22 pm
Spoiler:
Are Noemi and Lorna lesbian?:D

You know, if each of the 16 members of the BP team got a dollar each time this comes up... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on October 26, 2010, 12:38:47 pm
.... they could have bought the rights to FreeSpace by now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 26, 2010, 01:38:26 pm
[...]
It would be really hard do VA it, but game deserves it.
Take a look here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71181.0. You can even participate in the effort to get it voice acted.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: djmindcrasher on October 26, 2010, 02:39:30 pm
[...]
It would be really hard do VA it, but game deserves it.
Take a look here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71181.0. You can even participate in the effort to get it voice acted.

Unfortunately I don't have much time for it, I have zero experience in VA and I'm not native English speaker so I could dub only Kassim:P But I guess someone is already attached to him:P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 26, 2010, 06:19:50 pm
Considering that both the UEF and GTVA are multi-culti accents aren't a problem as long as it's understandable. And since you mentioned Kassim, his deadline was extended just today ;)
And as far as I know, non of the minor roles have been decided yet, with the possible exception of Archer flight, since that has been removed from the script.

And lack of experience shouldn't be a problem either, since at least some of the AoA voice actors didn't do any VA before either (me for example - proud voice of the GTCv Labouchere :D) and WiH has way more roles to fill than AoA had.
And this is only part 1 of WiH....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on October 26, 2010, 10:04:04 pm
And lack of experience shouldn't be a problem either, since at least some of the AoA voice actors didn't do any VA before either (me for example - proud voice of the GTCv Labouchere :D).

I liked that voice, pretty very signature. Glad to hear the Labouchere is auditioning for WIH.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 27, 2010, 08:14:21 am
Yay, thanks :D. And there I always though I was the worst voice of all AoA...
Guess it's the old thing with hearing your own voice as others hear it :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mura on October 27, 2010, 11:30:52 pm
You little f|_|ckers...
Code: [Select]
[23:24] <mura> ;___;
[23:24] <mura> duuuude
[23:24] <mura> ****ing tevs
[23:24] <Fury`> ?
[23:25] <mura> good thing the blister in my finger has almost healed, or it would have exploded on the joystick
[23:25] <@Battuta> you beat it mura?
[23:25] <mura> manly tears moisturize my eyes...
[23:25] <@Battuta> you gotta post your reactions on the forum man
[23:25] <mura> i don't feel like i have beaten anything
[23:25] <@Battuta> rest of team has to see!
[23:26] <mura> you ****ers! you almost made me cry!
[23:26] <mura> i'm still trembling with anger T__T
[23:26] <@Battuta> tell the foruuuum
[23:26] <@Battuta> tell everything!
[23:26] <@Battuta> team must hear!
[23:26] <@Dariusfolio> delenda est?
[23:26] <mura> i'm just gonna paste a transcript
[23:27] <mura> yeah...

So there you have it... this is just not cool... i mean, what the hell? D:

EDIT: It might look like i'm angry at the team or something... well, kind of, this guys did it too well, i got... just... *sigh* DAMN TEVS! Steele, you magnificent bastard! AGH!!!

Congratulations on making something so freaking amazing, can't wait for the third release!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on October 28, 2010, 12:43:41 am
Steele, you magnificent bastard!
Did Steele write a book? I would love to be able to cry out loud "Steele you magnificent bastard, I read your book!" during WiH2
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 28, 2010, 12:48:57 am
If I remember correctly, he wrote a treatise on the use of the destroyers in GTVA Battlegroups in response to lessons learned by studying Shivan tactics, and this directly affects the way the GTVA maneuver their fleet assets during WiH.

"Steele, you magnificent bastard! I read your treatise!" probably doesn't have the same ring to it. Although I could cook up such a treatise in writing post-exams...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 28, 2010, 07:32:05 am
Code: [Select]
[00:52] <Caiaphas> I will be honest.  I cheered during the finale of DE.
[00:58] <mura> Tev scum
[00:59] * Caiaphas is diehard Tev and doesn't afraid of any crazy fed.
[00:59] <mura> **** the feds! wardog for life!
[01:00] <mura> aaaah, no mames, estubo tan pinches bueno que tengo que expresarlo en español!
[01:00] <mura> EN MAL ESPAÑOL!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on October 28, 2010, 09:38:16 pm
"Steele you magnificent Bastard, I read your Treatise!" Hmmm, it has the wrong amount of syllables, perhaps "Text" may work...

No... It still doesn't sound right...

I wonder what the space-age aquivalent of "Infanterie greift an" might be anyway? I guess Steele's treatise fits that role in a way...

Ah, **** it, I'll just pretend it IS a book. Let's hope WiH 2 will give me a truly good moment to shout it Patton-style.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on October 28, 2010, 09:40:43 pm
Until the UEF can use his shock jumping tactics against him through something like beam-equipped Narayanas, I doubt it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 30, 2010, 03:23:36 am
Wait a minute...the Feds have Anti-matter tech?  Why on earth are they using Rail/Coil guns?  You'd think they would have some method of flinging the stuff at range and blowing the hell outta everything.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 30, 2010, 04:46:48 am
Yes, they have. It's called "packing it in a penetrator projectile which is shot via mass driver into an enemy target". Or "pack it into a missile warhead".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 30, 2010, 06:09:00 am
I admit that I let a small Squeeee of joy escape when the
Spoiler:
Imperieoooos jumped back in,
in DE. But I have to also add that I audibly cursed the stealth fighters  . . . . . You know the ones I mean.
 
I still love Betac and all the video tape rental privilidges it bestows on its citizens. :yes: lifelong free rental for TEV military. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on October 30, 2010, 06:27:33 am
We have achieved the ultimate ideal of free video rental. But at what cost?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on October 30, 2010, 06:46:06 am
Narayana's are really quite powerful, at least when the tactical situation fits their profile. I don't think they were given the chance to shine given the circumstances in R1, but for example in the Rheza station mission they took off more than a 1/3 of the Atreus hitpoints by the time the dialogue ended and Steele jumped out. They also play an important role in the background, helping the Solaris-destroyers in diversion in Aristeia iirc. Same with the Durgas really. But that's the premise of BP combat - tactic, counter, tactic, counter ....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on October 30, 2010, 07:25:05 am
Well, on the surface, that's the premise of every military engagement ever.

But going below the surface, as Sun Tzu said, "All warfare is based on deception." If you're familiar with Matt Reilly, you'll recall in Ice Station the SAS lecturer and officer also said "Have your enemy look at one hand whilst you doing something else with the other," or something to that effect. What it really is is making the enemy think your doing this, have him believe it and counter it. Except you've been expecting this counter and you have an action that nullifies this counter as well as achieving what you want to achieve here, or something at least a little like that.

But if you're one step ahead of this, you'll have prepared a contingency for the enemy action and enacted it. Or even better, have been expecting this all along and have your enemy eat right out of your palm. On the note of contingencies, flow charts are really helpful with planning them, I've found; wouldn't be surprised if Steele's office on the flagship is covered in flowcharts written on butcher's paper. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 30, 2010, 09:13:40 am
Wait a minute...the Feds have Anti-matter tech?  Why on earth are they using Rail/Coil guns?  You'd think they would have some method of flinging the stuff at range and blowing the hell outta everything.

Antimatter is extremely hard to contain and even harder to get to detonate in a yield-maximizing fashion. For this reason it's delivered via torpedoes, generally. The standard-issue torps on the Apocalypse, Narayana, and Solaris, as well as the Jackhammer and Sledgehammer ASMs, are all antimatter-tipped, like the GTVA Helios or (I think?) the Tsunami.

There are some antimatter-cored railguns in service too. But don't fall into the SF trap of thinking of antimatter as a be-all-end-all replacement for nukes. Though the yield efficiency is nominally much higher, it's way more expensive and you can't carry as much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on October 30, 2010, 11:22:03 am
I'm just stretching....grasping for a way for the Feds to have some kind of tactical parity with GTVA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 30, 2010, 11:24:43 am
They do. While beams are a massive advantage, it's one that is mostly in terms of logistics (not having to carry around magazines full of asplodey stuff is reaally good). The tactical properties of beams can be countered, as the UEF demonstrates by using missile swarm and precision mass drivers to take out turrets en masse.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 30, 2010, 11:27:01 am
I'm just stretching....grasping for a way for the Feds to have some kind of tactical parity with GTVA.

We wanted an asymmetric balance model, though, so their capship guns alone won't bring them to parity. Good fighter/gunship/bomber tactics are the key to the UEF holding or gaining ground. In that respect they outperform the GTVA.

That said they can put some pretty heavy throw weight on scene. You'll get to see some very tense railgun/torp-vs-beam duels in R@.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on October 30, 2010, 11:51:26 am
Good.  I've been itching to see Narayanas and Solarises get to show their stuff.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 30, 2010, 11:58:35 am
The Toutatis showed her stuff in Aristeia...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on October 30, 2010, 12:05:52 pm
The Toutatis showed her stuff in Aristeia...
Yeah, in the same sense that the Narayana did in Darkest Hour.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 11, 2010, 07:57:23 pm
blue planet on blue planet

Quote
<@toolttuta> are you saying our campaign isn't freespacey enough!?
[20:55] <@The_E> Too much character drama
[20:55] <@Axem> not enough fighter centric missions
[20:55] <@Darius> alpha 1 speaks too much
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 11, 2010, 08:08:36 pm
Well, they're right.

It's definitely not that freespacey. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 11, 2010, 08:10:31 pm
don't explain the joke you KILL the joke
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 11, 2010, 08:20:46 pm
don't explain the joke you KILL the joke

Should I explain that too. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Arcalane on November 13, 2010, 04:53:41 am
Here, have a pretty picture of a gliding Katana nuking the Thalassa (http://i56.tinypic.com/vr592t.jpg).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 13, 2010, 05:18:34 am
Seems like you got fair use out of Beta Wing there. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Renegade Paladin on November 13, 2010, 06:58:56 am
So, I noticed something while recording VA lines.  When the Toreador responds to Steele, the captain orders gunnery to load sabot.  Now... why would you do that?  In space?  I fail to see the advantage of a sabot round in vacuum, especially in a mass driver; if you're going to fling a mass at the enemy in order to damage him, why would you want some of that mass to flake off and not hit the enemy?  Or more to the point, it's going to hit the enemy, since this is space, and after separating from the round it's going to keep moving just as fast as it did before separation and in the same direction (barring some sort of violent propulsion involved in the separation of the sabot from the round it encases) and is therefore going to hit the enemy anyway, so you're adding a complicated mechanism for no practical effect. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Arcalane on November 13, 2010, 07:12:12 am
So, I noticed something while recording VA lines.  When the Toreador responds to Steele, the captain orders gunnery to load sabot.  Now... why would you do that?  In space?  I fail to see the advantage of a sabot round in vacuum, especially in a mass driver; if you're going to fling a mass at the enemy in order to damage him, why would you want some of that mass to flake off and not hit the enemy?  Or more to the point, it's going to hit the enemy, since this is space, and after separating from the round it's going to keep moving just as fast as it did before separation and in the same direction (barring some sort of violent propulsion involved in the separation of the sabot from the round it encases) and is therefore going to hit the enemy anyway, so you're adding a complicated mechanism for no practical effect.  

Raw mass impact is not always the key to breaking through the enemy's armour, especially when all sorts of fancy technobabble armour technologies are in play. Let's say you're engaging a lightly armoured target. If you hit them with a dense projectile (such as a saboted armour penetrator made of, say, tungsten) it'll overpenetrate, so you switch to a round that'll punch through their soft armour and then explode before it rips out the other side.

On the other hand if they have heavy armour then a round the size of a dustbin that just flattens on their fancy armour is no use - you want a shaped, armour penetrating projectile, that may or may not include a discarding sabot part.

~~

Seems like you got fair use out of Beta Wing there. :P

I don't tend to keep track of the wingmates, I must admit. Strikecraft get splattered so easily compared to frigates.  :ick:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 13, 2010, 07:15:29 am
Yeah. :P Although Beta Wing can almost win the mission for you in some parts; in my recollection. I digress. I too was a little surprised upon hearing SABOT rounds being used; last time I'd heard the word SABOT was when I was playing that old M1A2 Abrams tank game as a young 'un. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 13, 2010, 07:48:11 am
Part of the reason why sabot is used is that a heavy, dense penetrator round can cause problems for the barrel it's fired from if it's in direct contact. (Seriously, don't try to fire something made of tungsten or DU out of a barrel without a sabot, it'll really **** up a metal as light as steel.) The other is that a subcalibur round with a lighter sabot can develop higher velocities than a full-scale round.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 13, 2010, 11:29:22 am
UEF armor-piercing rounds are smaller than the (often enormous) muzzle diameters of the gauss cannons and mass drivers, for all the reasons explained above. Thus they need sabots.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on November 14, 2010, 06:20:23 am
Hm, so yeah, why sabots are used in space, I can understand. But I just thought, and I might be wrong there: Aren't sabot's usually discarded with help of air drag? Wouldn't you need somthing like high explosives to blow them off the projectile, potentially destabilising...

...

wait, I just realised: Why would you even want the sabot discarded, it's basically completely arbitrary if it hits the target together with the projectile...

Still, space sabots do sound kind of strange - but I didn't even notice it the first time around, so even if it didn't make sense, suspension of disbelieve for the win.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 14, 2010, 09:12:22 am
I don't think it particularly said anywhere that they were discarded. But I'd actually imagine they are, you want clean lines down the length of the projectile for when it does eventually hit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 14, 2010, 12:51:26 pm
I don't think explosives will be necessary. Pockets with some gas should do the trick. Unless the gas cools off and turns liquid too early, it's expansion should be enough to move the discarded parts away from the actual projectile far enough so they don't get in the way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 14, 2010, 02:56:46 pm
I expect more interesting exotic weapons technology was salvaged from the Lucifer debris, but I'm probably speaking before my turn, who knows what's involved or used in the secret project or even by the Feyadeen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on November 14, 2010, 03:40:08 pm
Who knows? Why, the Battman knows, of course.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crian on November 15, 2010, 12:22:18 am
Hi everyone!

This is my first post here. I haven't played SCP for about 2 years then I decided to come back last week and take a look at what's new. Oh boy was I in for a treat!

Finally, this is the closest thing we're probably gonna get to Freespace 3, and it's great! Congratulations to the team for this great achievement!

Age of Aquarius really pumped me up for more, then War in Heaven really got me going. I almost couldn't stop playing it! Granted, there are things here and there that could've been improved but the whole experience is just overwhelmingly positive that I couldn't bother myself to mention them. Except one though... the whole lesbian thing feels a little gimicky but really who cares??  :lol:

I like the militaristic vibe you imbued into it without sacrificing fun. Sure there was a lot of text but it was so good that I actually PAUSED the game several times to read the dialogue!  :D

Definitely a lot of inspiration from the modern BSG (card games and sparring, the chatter, plus a few others), Babylon 5 (those Karunas scream Omega), I even saw a little Homeworld 2 there (those Solaris-Class Destroyers look and fire like the Vaygr Battlecruisers). There are others that I can't think of right now.

Well to end this statement: BRAVO! EN CORE! BRAVO!

Needless to say, I'm waiting eagerly for the next installment. Christmas is around the corne... baah I'm not gonna nag y'all (and get flamed in the process). You'll release it when it's done. You guys are the masters.    ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: blowfish on November 15, 2010, 01:59:39 am
:welcomeblue:

:D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on November 15, 2010, 03:01:38 am
I think mass driver sabot are simply denser heavier rounds with improved penetrator instead of those in real life for gunpowder based weapons. The sabot covering is not necessary for mass drivers since the slug is fired using electrical charge or magnetic force.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Killer Whale on November 15, 2010, 05:58:54 am
Haven't read any of this topic but I have to say. This was Epic. I'd go into more detail into why it's epic, but you'd already know and I can't be bothered with spoiler tags. Don't you love that shiver you get at awesome moments? This is the way war fiction should be. Freespace 3 would never have had a chance against this, so personally I can stop hoping for it forever because we've already got better. Unfortunately, this also made me realise my new computer isn't as great as I'd thought (4 FPS? I wanted something like 60, or at least a non-gameplay-affecting number. I mean c'mon, there's only a few frigates and fighters in my hud).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 15, 2010, 06:13:44 am
As we've said several times, the problem is that the frigate models, while gorgeous, are also not well optimized for in-game usage. We're working on fixing that, but it's taking some time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 15, 2010, 07:35:49 am
Yeah. We've got the heavy frigate type almost optimized thanks to Esarai's amazing work.

Thank you everybody for your praise, it really helps us keep going.

Quote
Except one though... the whole lesbian thing feels a little gimicky but really who cares??

The lesbian thing was accidental, not thrown in there for titillation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Arcalane on November 15, 2010, 09:04:43 am
The lesbian thing was accidental, not thrown in there for titillation.

It's kinda understandable though. When all the guys are either fighter jocks, deck officers or boring old crewmen...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 15, 2010, 09:08:54 am
I should clarify. I don't want to make it out to be 'oh, we'd never have done it on purpose.' In the setting, it's not something that really matters to the characters or to the society they live in, and we as developers have been really touched by the letters of thanks we got from GLBT players who had somebody to root for. But it wasn't written as fanservice.
Title: Testing... testing... is this thing on?
Post by: Vertigo 7 on November 15, 2010, 07:06:05 pm
Yeah soooo... its been nearly a year since I've been around and played FS2. I remember when I first discovered HLP I was seeking out a means to recover the enthrallment I got when I played FS1 and 2 from their retail launch days. To my amazement and wonder I discovered HLP and low and behold they've gotten the source code and omg they're revamping the graphics and models and everything! It was truly a happy day.

Then I discovered the community projects... Babylon 5, Silent Threat Reborn... to name a few I was blown away by the detail and attention thrown into the projects. It really made my return to the Free Space universe all the better.

So I kept hearing chatter on IRC about this "Blue Planet" mod and some intersting ships available for download. I monkeyed a little bit with some of the ships, they were beautiful... So I took the plunge and downloaded the full mod. From the get go, I was yet again blown away... I didn't think it would be possible for the mod to top ST:R and the like, yet... there it was, in all its glory... A very interesting and riveting story with some fantastic game play. Could it possibly get any better than this?

The question was answered upon my recent return to the Free Space universe with War in Heaven... I was expecting some brilliant work with the follow up to AoA but this exceeded my wildest expectations.

You guys have really outshined yourselves... Not since Final Fantasy 7 have I ever been so drawn into character development, game play, and story. You have brought a very human and realistic aspect. To quote myself from #bp its one of those "have your cake and eat it too" moments that I find are so rare yet highly sought after.

You guys have my sincerest thanks for releasing something of this quality and magnitude for all of us to enjoy. Major kudos to you folks. I can't wait for part 2!
Title: Re: Testing... testing... is this thing on?
Post by: General Battuta on November 15, 2010, 07:46:29 pm
Hooray! Thank you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on November 15, 2010, 09:55:27 pm
I was replaying "The Plunder" in the tech-room, and I was bugged by this line of Laporte's: "They have a thing for oversized, sensational warships. Their Colossus and all. I guess they never learned from the Galatea and Legion." Now, I understand the Colossus part, but I don't really get the part about the Galatea and Legion - the main fighting capships in the GTVA force are corvettes (which are smaller than the UEF's frigates!) and destroyers like the Atreus and Imperiuse have been shown to be quite effective. :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 15, 2010, 10:02:07 pm
The Galatea and Legion were both mainstay warships that lasted about thirty seconds in line combat with their Shivan counterpart - too big and centralized for their jobs. Ironically the same was true of the Colossus. In this case, Laporte seems to be suggesting that the Agincourt would be better off as a lot of smaller logistical assets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 15, 2010, 10:03:35 pm
Of course given the way our "why not a carrier" discussions have gone, you could read a lot of the UEF's/Laporte's maturity and understanding of subspace-age tactics into such...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on November 15, 2010, 10:21:30 pm
Also maybe that the Tevs are compensating for something. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 15, 2010, 10:50:37 pm
Of course given the way our "why not a carrier" discussions have gone, you could read a lot of the UEF's/Laporte's maturity and understanding of subspace-age tactics into such...

Which in this case as in many are excellent; when the battlespace is essentially contiguous and multiply connected and the limiting factor is number and accuracy of subspace jumps more than anything else, the last thing you want to do is centralize a function. Presenting a distributed target is as effective as presenting a heavily defended one especially because it gives your defense depth and reactivity.
Title: Re: Testing... testing... is this thing on?
Post by: bigchunk1 on November 15, 2010, 10:58:25 pm

You guys have really outshined yourselves... Not since Final Fantasy 7 have I ever been so drawn into character development, game play, and story. You have brought a very human and realistic aspect. To quote myself from #bp its one of those "have your cake and eat it too" moments that I find are so rare yet highly sought after.

I never played Final Fantasy 7, but I know what you mean. What makes BP so nice (for me) is the level of care and thought that goes into it. It's so apparent in the result. All the elements compliment themselves so nicely that nothing really gets in the way of the player's ability to absorb the experience. The player considers Laporte, her situation, the mystery surrounding her mental state and the characters on both sides of this complicated and grey shaded war. It never crossed my mind that there were 'too many fighters in one wing' or that 'this ship looks tacky' etc. To reiterate what i've said in an earlier post, it really comes off as a professional undertaking. It has become a set of fiction that I have come to 'trust' able to naively and childishly read and ponder its many aspects only to come out with many of the same things you have mentioned.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on November 16, 2010, 12:57:47 am
I just thought of something, given how effective GTVA ships are vs. the Fed counterpart, why didn't they just charge to Earth and blow everything to hell.  War's over in 20 min with a minimum of casualties.  I mean if the battlegroup from AoA is the spearhead, where's the rest of the fleet?  A spearhead is worthless without a shaft to push it through the enemy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on November 16, 2010, 03:23:04 am
If you had actually read this topic, you wouldn't have had to ask.

1) Fed capitals are plenty effective against Tevs, Fed capitals have advantage in range and tactics compared to average Tev cruiser/corvette.
2) Fed fighters and bombers outperform Tev equivalents.
3) Solaris represent real deterrence unless Tevs somehow manage to find all three with their pants down.

In conclusion. Tevs have advantage in their beam weapons but they are only able to use that advantage in direct head-to-head confrontation within range of their beams. Feds don't have to play into Tevs hands by allowing that. Instead they can disarm these beams fairly effortlessly by using gauss cannons, torpedoes and gunships.

Feds capitals excel at anti-fighter role. It is far harder for Tevs to disarm and disable Fed capitals. Not only that, but Feds gunships and bombers specialize in anti-capital role and they are far more maneuverable than Tevs cruisers and corvettes. And Feds have the means to protect those gunships and bombers while they do their job.

Feds would be able to mobilize far more assets than what Tevs could bring through the one node, particularly when Tevs can't even bring in full force because they have to maintain presence in other systems just in case of Shivans.

The war is not simply about which side has the biggest guns on their capital ships. Beams won't make that big of a difference in grand scheme of things. Yes, it is undeniable advantage, but still very limited advantage.

Not to mention that Tevs would have one humongous disadvantage if they would just storm Earth. They have no target there. Did you expect Tevs to bomb Earth or something? Well, not gonna happen, Earth is their home too and they want it intact. Sure, there are bases around Earth orbit. But they would still have to pick military targets. While Tevs would be busy blasting those stations, Feds would be busy blasting their ships. In the end Tevs would receive huge losses in exchange for few stations.

Tevs need to target Feds logistical support to win the war. All war critical assets are heavily guarded and Feds would get advance warning of every move Tevs make and react accordingly. Direct confrontations in both sides would result in hefty losses for both sides, including Tevs. And Tevs would lose regardless of their advantage in beams.

In short, if Tevs would use direct-confrontation as their primary tactics, they would win battles but not the war. Their war effort would collapse due to losses received. Beams aren't going to change that. Steele plays aggressively, but he's not stupid. He's going to be very careful at managing his assets, logistics and minimize losses, that's the only way to win against an opponent on his home ground.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on November 16, 2010, 03:41:51 am
Many of the Fed's tactical advantages will melt away in a frontal assault. Sehkr team, for example, is just dead as anyone else if pinned down by artillery frigates and Durgas (nevermind the super-heavy bombers, those are downright scary). Try some stuff in FRED - if the UEF manages to get the drop on the GTVA instead, it isn't pretty for the GTVA. Or see the attack on the Severanti's flagship, the retreat of the Atreus at Rheza and the defeat at Artesia. The GTVA has been very good at maximizing its tactical advantages, and that's how they win, but they can be beat too.

Strategically, the GTVA wants as much benefit from Earth whilst expending as little of their own resources as possible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 16, 2010, 04:18:27 am
Furthermore when the GTVA came through the node they wouldn't have known the capabilities of the UEF ships. Commiting your entire fleet in that systems against an enemy you know barely anything about and leaving your support lines unprotected on top of that is just plain suicide.

Even if they would have done as you suggest and by some miracle gained orbital dominance of Earth, that would leave them cut off. They can't conquer Earth, so they won't get supplys from down there. And since they have their entire Sol fleet around Earth, the Jovian and Martian fleets can simply entrench themselfs at the jumpnode and wait till the GTVA forces run out of fuel, food and all kind of other supplys while constantly nibbling away at them with small hit-and-run attacks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on November 16, 2010, 04:26:24 am
Many of the Fed's tactical advantages will melt away in a frontal assault.
Bear in mind that the only beams that are significantly more powerful than Feds torps/mass driver/gauss cannon combo are the new-gen blue ones. Of the new ships all but Diomedes, Titan and Raynor have all their firepower directed forward. On the other hand you have Feds with torp launcher that have about 240 degree coverage. This means that Feds are more maneuverable in close quarters. Feds are dead if those new-gen ships catch them their pants down, but otherwise it may go either way depending on situation and what ships are in the engagement.

FS2-era Tev ships don't have enough firepower to ensure a sure victory over Feds. It takes less time for Feds torps to kill those beams than it does those beamers to kill the Fed ship. Engagements never are so static though, so this comparison doesn't hold water much. The new-gen BP-era ships have more firepower though and more often than not, can survive a direct confrontation.

More importantly, Tevs need to ensure that their ships stay alive for perform in the next operation. Managing to kill Fed ships in direct combat is fine and all, but getting your own ships killed when they can't jump out before Feds retaliate isn't smart. I'm sure you've seen this happen in WiH several times, for example two Diomedes corvettes in The Darkest Hour and Aristeia. Some may argue that those two corvettes died for nothing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 16, 2010, 04:27:58 am
Also, take a very close look at this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72393.0).

At the start of hostilities, the UEF had 3 Destroyers, 35+ Frigates and 60+ Cruisers. And what can only be described as a whole damn lot of Fighters, Bombers and Gunships. There is no way a GTVA Battlegroup (or 2, or 3) can simply steamroll through a force that size.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on November 16, 2010, 04:33:02 am
Which in this case as in many are excellent; when the battlespace is essentially contiguous and multiply connected and the limiting factor is number and accuracy of subspace jumps more than anything else, the last thing you want to do is centralize a function. Presenting a distributed target is as effective as presenting a heavily defended one especially because it gives your defense depth and reactivity.

Which ignores the logistical problems inherent. Logistical support is more effectively delivered via a few large ships rather than many small ones. Duplication of ships is duplication of effort. Many small ones opens the possibility of defeat in detail. They are unable to defend themselves, attack, and scout all at once because of their small number of fightercraft, they may not even be able to execute more than one of these tasks at a time. Coordination becomes more problematic.

Everyone on the planet (except you?) learned the problem with small carriers back in the Second World War. If you want to design an effective carrier, you need a large embarked force. If you want to do that in FreeSpace, it has to be able to defend itself.

Laporte's commentary even goes against her own service's design of the Solaris, for chrissakes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Arcalane on November 16, 2010, 05:29:58 am
I'm sure you've seen this happen in WiH several times, for example two Diomedes corvettes in The Darkest Hour and Aristeia. Some may argue that those two corvettes died for nothing.

I feel sorry for the Diomedes in Aristeia - I managed to neutralize it's slash beam emitters within a couple of minutes of it's arrival. With no AI programming to initiate a roll maneuver in order to bring the other two emitters to bear, it was systematically pulverized by torpedo barrages whilst the remaining ships in the battlegroup moved in on the GTD Hood.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2010, 07:50:18 am
I just thought of something, given how effective GTVA ships are vs. the Fed counterpart, why didn't they just charge to Earth and blow everything to hell.  War's over in 20 min with a minimum of casualties.  I mean if the battlegroup from AoA is the spearhead, where's the rest of the fleet?  A spearhead is worthless without a shaft to push it through the enemy.

This is addressed many times; there's even a standalone mission in the techroom to explain why it wouldn't work. There are also numerous techroom entries to explain what the shaft behind the 14th Battlegroup's spearhead was (for example, check out 'The Reunion').

Which in this case as in many are excellent; when the battlespace is essentially contiguous and multiply connected and the limiting factor is number and accuracy of subspace jumps more than anything else, the last thing you want to do is centralize a function. Presenting a distributed target is as effective as presenting a heavily defended one especially because it gives your defense depth and reactivity.

Which ignores the logistical problems inherent. Logistical support is more effectively delivered via a few large ships rather than many small ones. Duplication of ships is duplication of effort. Many small ones opens the possibility of defeat in detail.

No more than having a single failure point. The entire point (this has been hammered home a few times now) is that defeat in detail is actually harder to pull off than taking out a single centralized target given the FS realities.

Remember the basic rule of thumb of subspace war: a ship not yet deployed is more powerful than a ship on the field. Defeat in detail by definition requires committing a large force to each of a chain of small targets in sequence. But as soon as you put that large force on the field you've tipped your hand, given up the advantage, and opened everything else you've got to the countermove. Whether it's an overwhelming response to your large attack or simply giving up the target and hitting the enemy in return, you're making a big mistake by committing more than you need to one target. Meanwhile the distributed enemy still has all the other fractions of their distributed assets free to respond (presumably by running for safespots or the coverage of something like Artemis).

Witness the Wargods, who concentrated too much force in one place. It's like pokerchess; the rules of the game are minimum possible commitment, concealed moves, uncertain dispositions and reserves and never giving away anything you don't have to.

Quote
Everyone on the planet (except you?) learned the problem with small carriers back in the Second World War. If you want to design an effective carrier, you need a large embarked force. If you want to do that in FreeSpace, it has to be able to defend itself.

And in FreeSpace, distributed taskings have a huge advantage of their own - they're easier to defend than a single point, and said 'large embarked force' can exist from multiple points. There's actually no meaningful difference between nine small carriers and one big carrier in terms of their offensive deployments, though there would be on defense if all the carriers were stupidly in the same place - but carriers aren't at issue here; logistics ships are. Subspace means the battlespace is multiply connected. Put all the targets in one place like the Agincourt and, well, you get the Agincourt: a brace of Paveways to the engines and your war's in trouble.

Another advantage of attempting defeat in detail is that it exploits the enemy element's inability to mutually support. But with subspace, mutual support is easy!

Quote
Laporte's commentary even goes against her own service's design of the Solaris, for chrissakes.

Not so; the Solaris is a pretty big ship but it's backed up by an enormous amount of distributed organic flight capability. Each one of those frigates is a small carrier. That said I'm not sure she'd disagree about the Solarises; her move from big deck operations down to a frigate seemed to make her much happier, and those things are Sathanas bait.

The ad hom above was low-quality. Either get better or keep it on the level. It's that or another thrashing and splitlock.

But if you are interested in learning more about an oddly similar and perhaps somewhat inspirational method of war, check out Goonswarm's grid-fu manual, which is a great read.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on November 16, 2010, 08:02:36 am
Which ignores the logistical problems inherent. Logistical support is more effectively delivered via a few large ships rather than many small ones. Duplication of ships is duplication of effort. Many small ones opens the possibility of defeat in detail. They are unable to defend themselves, attack, and scout all at once because of their small number of fightercraft, they may not even be able to execute more than one of these tasks at a time. Coordination becomes more problematic.

Everyone on the planet (except you?) learned the problem with small carriers back in the Second World War. If you want to design an effective carrier, you need a large embarked force. If you want to do that in FreeSpace, it has to be able to defend itself..

I'm not too sure if that holds up in a subspace battlefield. In this, you are threatened by enemy ambushes all the time. Also, smaller ships have better subspace maneuverability.

Basically - one big central supply vessel means all your big ships have to jump to it to resupply, or it has to jump to them. Every jump of the supply ship makes it vulnerable if it's location is known to enemy ambushes as long as it's drive has to recharge, and every destroyer commited to resupply potentially gives away it's location (it's own and that of the supply). Also it is nailed down for some time as well before it could disengage from any ambush on the logistic vessel.

Supply through a decentralized fleet of fast and agile transports and freighters means, that they can jump fast, in and out, resupplying without endagering themselves as much (they recharge much faster), and also any attack on them is an opportunity for a counterattack - so the risk involved in attacking a small group of freighters resupplying a frigate may be unproportionally high when compared to the payoff.

The danger of losing the war by losing or inefficiently commiting all those small ships and independently workig frigates is much lower in a subspace battlefield, than having one big central logistic vessel.

The main reason the GTVA employs those large vessels, for all what I know or suspect, is to operate long times independently in systems under enemy control. That was never needed or intended for the UEF assets. Their frigates where made to police sectors of one solar system independently for some time.

Also, the more ships you have - the more pieces you have to react to opportunities. Absolute manouverability through subspace means that you can commit vessels very dynamically. It does not mean that your small ships will be eaten up without support being there in time, but it means that every small ship can be used to counterattack any offensive, as long as it isn't engaged otherwise. Positioning and dynamic tactics are even more important here than they ever were in any WWII sea warfare scenario. For that, a few clumsy ships that still don't hold up well under beam fire or long range artillery frigate bombardement or bomber commitment are always off worse than a fast and agile fleet.

Also, strike craft are not bound to their carriers that much. They can also jump in and engage anywhere, and then resupply basically anywhere as well if their carrier/frigate/destroyer were to be destroyed.

Of course, thanks to the passiveness of the UEF command, they aren't using this to it's full capabilities. Also, subspace warfare makes for some dilemmas much akin to trench warfare: If you attack blindly, the attacker is always the one getting slaughtered in unproportianally great numbers (here due to dynamic counterattacks, not due to fortification), for just a few "yards" of advantage.

Quote
Laporte's commentary even goes against her own service's design of the Solaris, for chrissakes

I don't really get that one. The Solaris, I thought, was not a supply point for the frigates, which can act very independently but only, well, a large ship for deterrence. I may have missed something though.

EDIT: TL;DR: What Battuta said
EDIT2: "so the risk involved in attacking a small group of freighters resupplying a frigate may be unproportionally high when compared to the risk involved." - way to be redundant - wtf was I thinking...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2010, 08:04:16 am
Indeed, the Anemoi was designed to supply ships operating away from a coherent strategic command, like in a theater like the nebula.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on November 16, 2010, 08:10:57 am
Bear in mind that the only beams that are significantly more powerful than Feds torps/mass driver/gauss cannon combo are the new-gen blue ones. Of the new ships all but Diomedes, Titan and Raynor have all their firepower directed forward. On the other hand you have Feds with torp launcher that have about 240 degree coverage. This means that Feds are more maneuverable in close quarters. Feds are dead if those new-gen ships catch them their pants down, but otherwise it may go either way depending on situation and what ships are in the engagement.

FS2-era Tev ships don't have enough firepower to ensure a sure victory over Feds. It takes less time for Feds torps to kill those beams than it does those beamers to kill the Fed ship. Engagements never are so static though, so this comparison doesn't hold water much. The new-gen BP-era ships have more firepower though and more often than not, can survive a direct confrontation.

More importantly, Tevs need to ensure that their ships stay alive for perform in the next operation. Managing to kill Fed ships in direct combat is fine and all, but getting your own ships killed when they can't jump out before Feds retaliate isn't smart. I'm sure you've seen this happen in WiH several times, for example two Diomedes corvettes in The Darkest Hour and Aristeia. Some may argue that those two corvettes died for nothing.
I meant many of the GTVA's advantages will fade away in a frontal assault, hence the Sehkr team example. Sorry, school's been intense and I haven't been proof-reading the way I should.

The Diomedes class is interesting, but it seems like it just doesn't have enough teeth to operate solo the way we've seen them deployed. There's wisdom in how the UEF operates its frigates in pairs, but I'm not 100% sure how the Diomedes fits into the GTVA battle doctrine. Maybe it's just more effective for peacekeeping a large number of systems with less powerful, internal enemies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2010, 08:19:10 am
It is worth pointing out that in both cases the Diomedes showed up it was deployed as a coup de gras against what should have been a well-softened opponent; and in both cases it fell victim to a reactive counterdeployment. Damn those fighter screens, screwing everything up!

Oh and the Diomedes was designed to provide flank security for Belles and Chimeras.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 16, 2010, 11:00:47 am
I wonder though how lethal an accurate beam shot is when hitting one of the Fed torpedo tubes while it's about to fire or reloading. I assume canonically there is some sort of containment for such breaches, such as torpedoes being unarmed and not lethal until fired or otherwise properly detonated (as opposed to being randomly destroyed)?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2010, 11:03:35 am
If you look in-game you will see that UEF torpedoes do not arm until within a set distance of their targets. If you shoot one down right after it leaves the tube you'll generally just get a little 'poof'.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on November 16, 2010, 05:31:56 pm
One possible reason for the Tevs to use larger logistics ships could be that they can be deployed on longer operations (like what happened in AoA).  While several smaller ships could carry the same number of supplies, the endurance of each ship might be less.  These ships might not be meant for supply of the entire fleet, but of specific elements that are isolated from easy resupply.  The ships deployed in Sol were on the other side of the subspace node bottleneck, and they couldn't guarantee a continuous flow of supplies through the node.

Another reason could be that, for a given volume of supplies, a larger ship might be more efficient than multiple smaller ones.  Multiple smaller ships might result in more ship tonnage per ton of supplies than one larger one.  For instance, if you have two smaller ships that can each carry half the supplies of another ship, the ships themselves might be more than half tonnage, half the cost to operate, etc. than the larger ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2010, 05:37:07 pm
Definite possibilities. And as I think was mentioned the Anemois were designed to serve in areas beyond the umbrella of standard logistics, like in Shivan-infested systems (or when driving your battlegroup right into the heart of the UEF and demanding its surrender.) They're not necessarily a bad design, and heck you could make an argument for keeping your logistics in one place, but to Laporte of the UEF, in the context of the ongoing war in Sol, it's not a decision she respects.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SomeGuyWithAName on November 17, 2010, 03:07:03 am
I think large logistics vessels make sense, if you employ your forces across several systems, as the GTVA has to. As has been said: In enemy territory, you need something like that. Especially since BP established that nodes can work as bottlenecks for supply and forces commited away from home systems have to account for that.

If your battlefield is a single system though, and you never expect to operate aggressively in enemy territory/systems - a decentralised system is much more efficient in subspace warfare.

So both strategies have their place, and they are actually pretty characteristic for the UEF and GTVA respectively. Laporte's criticism is therefore also a reflection of the unresolveable schism of philosophy - both on and outside of the battlefield, of the two factions.
Title: Re: Testing... testing... is this thing on?
Post by: General Battuta on November 17, 2010, 08:57:29 am
Yeah soooo... its been nearly a year since I've been around and played FS2. I remember when I first discovered HLP I was seeking out a means to recover the enthrallment I got when I played FS1 and 2 from their retail launch days. To my amazement and wonder I discovered HLP and low and behold they've gotten the source code and omg they're revamping the graphics and models and everything! It was truly a happy day.

Then I discovered the community projects... Babylon 5, Silent Threat Reborn... to name a few I was blown away by the detail and attention thrown into the projects. It really made my return to the Free Space universe all the better.

So I kept hearing chatter on IRC about this "Blue Planet" mod and some intersting ships available for download. I monkeyed a little bit with some of the ships, they were beautiful... So I took the plunge and downloaded the full mod. From the get go, I was yet again blown away... I didn't think it would be possible for the mod to top ST:R and the like, yet... there it was, in all its glory... A very interesting and riveting story with some fantastic game play. Could it possibly get any better than this?

The question was answered upon my recent return to the Free Space universe with War in Heaven... I was expecting some brilliant work with the follow up to AoA but this exceeded my wildest expectations.

You guys have really outshined yourselves... Not since Final Fantasy 7 have I ever been so drawn into character development, game play, and story. You have brought a very human and realistic aspect. To quote myself from #bp its one of those "have your cake and eat it too" moments that I find are so rare yet highly sought after.

You guys have my sincerest thanks for releasing something of this quality and magnitude for all of us to enjoy. Major kudos to you folks. I can't wait for part 2!

Merged this in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Arcalane on November 18, 2010, 06:54:29 am
Battuta was asking in #hard-light for some BP2 screenshots yesterday (presumably something to do with the ModDB stuff) so I got a few snaps. I don't think they made the cut, but I'm pretty pleased with them.

Lunar City Approach, Lunar Surface (One Perfect Moment) (http://www.wyrdysm.com/arcalane/randomstuff/BP2-LunarSurface.png)
UEFg Katana #1, lit by an exploding Deimos (The Blade Itself) (http://www.wyrdysm.com/arcalane/randomstuff/BP2-Katana1.png)
UEFg Katana #2, lit by an exploding Deimos (The Blade Itself) (http://www.wyrdysm.com/arcalane/randomstuff/BP2-Katana2.png)

Chronologically the #2 shot came first; it's easy to tell because of the brighter glow. Getting HUDless screenshots from The Blade Itself was a pain in the ass because some of the targeting brackets (the orange and yellow ones, I think) are not hidden by the "hide HUD" control - as a result I couldn't get snaps that had any of the Deimos Corvettes in until they were quite thoroughly dead.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2010, 08:35:17 am
Pre-emptively cleaning up the inevitable splitlock. NGTM-1R if you want the post for your files let me know.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Killer Whale on November 19, 2010, 03:20:04 am
I changed my mind, I am going to bother with spoiler tags.
I hadn't played freespace in a while, my last post was January and I often spent time listening to stuff about things I hadn't played. But last week I updated with Turey's and got really excited seeing BP2. Re-did BP AoA on saturday. After getting confused a bit before changing my engine to SSE2, I finished BP2 on sunday, and monday afternoon. I just wanted to point this out as my reply was several months after the release and for all you know I could have spent months playing it.

Freespace 2 Open Blue Planet: War In Heaven is the best video game I have ever played. In the short time before I started really comparing it to other stuff, it was also the best fiction I've ever seen. After thinking about it a bit more its more like the third best fiction (I'm sorry, but the Bourne two-part trilogy (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TwoPartTrilogy) and El Goonish Shive top it. Maybe after the Karuna's cleaned up and you get voice acting). To expand, I preffered BP:WIH to: Lord of the Rings, Avatar (the $2.8x10^9 one), Halo: Combat Evolved, Age of Empires II Conquerors, The Inheritance Cycle, The Seventh Tower, Peggle, Casino Royale, World Of Warcraft, The Keys to the Kingdom, The Order Of The Stick, Doctor Who, The Matrix, The Hilltop Hoods, The Herd, British India, Freespace 2 retail, Descent: Freespace, Ender's Game, Artemis Fowl, Battlefield 1942, Fringe, The Alamo, Big Fish, any of the English lit things I've done (Romeo and Juliet, Of Mice and Men, The Catcher in the Rye, Macbeth, To Kill a Mockingbird, Oedipus Rex, Lord of the Flies)(But I don't really like them anyway), The Chronicles Of Narnia, Derelict, Transcend, Star Wars or Temeraire (in no particular order) just to name some of the best I can name off the top of my head! (some other big ones could go in there, but I haven't actually seen them.) Not to say I think these are worse then BP:WIH, just that BP is better. (Know what I mean? (You here what I'm saying? (If you do, get your ears checked, because no one said a word. (Sorry, couldn't resist (Scott McCloud (Understanding Comics (woah, bracket pyramid)))))))
Why?
Spoiler:
First of all is minor characterisation. In Halo, for example, marines say things like "get up so I can kill you again" (less funny when they oblige), "hey, that was my kill", grunts scream hectically (sp?) and about the only a couple of scenes touch on the tragedy of so many dying (one was only to show how badass and scary the badies were). Blue Planet: War In Heaven had pilots asking for forgiveness for both themselves and pilots once they killed someone. There wasn't so much "good kill", rather it made you realise that this was a war. This was horrible, people were actually dying here. ("I can see the bodies. Oh my god, some are still moving!" For the win). Very little fiction, and almost no video games (not any I've played at least) have actually made the point that your killing people. Your just killing avatars and getting more and more dulled to the violence around you. Or for fiction, faceless mooks whose only name is "Enemy Soldier" and only mention is they died with the rest of their squad when their magician got killed by Eragon. Nobody cares about them, not the reader, not the protagonists, not the antagonists. But you care for them in BP2. And getting recommended to see the psych constantly is right on the money. I've killed whole squads of soldiers because I got bored in Halo. I've gone traitor in FS2 retail for kicks. But I killed one enemy pilot in BP2 because no-one was paying attention to her and I didn't think the mission designer or the crew of the relief forces would notice her. And I felt ashamed.

Crowning Moments of awesome. You start the game with You Shall Not Pass and it works. Again and again you put in Epic moments and make the player realise that they're in an influencial turning point in history. Play "The Battle of the Bulge" or "El Alamein" on Battlefield 1942. It's not an influencial battle. Its you running around killing AIs and having them respawn when they lose their HPs. Blue Planet had events in them that made you realise, they were events. Freespace 2 was a bit too big, a bit too unrealistic. It broke my Willing Suspension of Disbelief when the sun went nova. The sun going nova is an event so momentous, I can't get it. But you made me realise that the officers and crew on that frigate were real, and they just lost their lives in an important battle. Bravo BP team. Bravo.

Main Characterisation. To be fair, characterisation has been done much better. It was pretty basic. My much love El Goonish Shive goes into some very deep and heart renching (sp?) moments. There is one very important thing that brings this up though. This is a game. A first person shooter flight sim. Games are for fun, games are to fill time when your bored, they serve as engines taking you to another world where you can be a psycopath and people will thank you for it. Plots are an afterthough. You made this game, not a hobby, not an addictive money-making waste of time, but a medium. Sure, books go deeper and have far deeper characters than WIH, but that's what they're meant to do. With luck you just created the first proper (keyword: proper, others have plotlines, but they're plot<fun.) gamic narrative (definitely not a word) where fun is equal to or less than story. That's probably completely false, but its the first and best I've seen.

FSO. Freespace is over a decade old. It's [insert preferred curse here] awesome. That has got to be an incredibly rare trait. Tetris and space invaders are incredibly old and still kicking (tetris moreso), but that's not thanks to their graphics. How did a game maintain cutting edge graphics over an 11 year period? It's all thanks to you Source Code Project.
Edit:
Honourable Mentions to (understatement):
Mission where you team up with GTVA to help Vasudans. I didn't fire a shot during or after negotitations and flew around horrified by their deaths.
Hostage. As I already mentioned, I felt ashamed for killing her.
Steele's plans, I loathe him for the vasudans thing, fear him for Delenda Est, and respect him as a brilliant GTVA operative
Last mission, the saving was predictable I'm sorry to say, but the simms thing and montage... gold. How the heck did you make me empathise with a random bridge officer with only a few lines better than other fiction's protagonists?!
The Elder dies, nothing new, i didn't know her or her importance, there's more where she came from. Wait, my character's fuming about it. I should be to! Hey, you killed the elder, come and take this you [censored]. etc. The reaction by the characters caused me to shift from indifference to fury, just because I learnt I should be, which is odd because it could have so easily have gone the other way and made me feel manipulated by putting words into my mouth. Soon I was hoping that the whole planet would rise up against the atrocity, prove Steele a liar to the vasudans, and kick some GTVA butt back to Delta Serpentis (or wherever the Sol Gate leads to).
How did you have nebula and non-nebula in the same mission?! Must be some new fso thing.
You showed me how awesome battles can be without huge cap-ships hanging around.
I thought that a hull repair support ship would be unbalanced. It wasn't.
Subspace missiles. Oh my god we are so doomed. In hindsight I think if you destroyed the right fighters they couldn't fire though. Missed that.
Music
Kittens
Edit:In short, if you [BP team] feel unhappy with what you've achieved. Don't be.


Because it is...








Epic

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 19, 2010, 04:55:09 am
Thank you muchly for that review. We just hope we can get R2 to live up to those standards.

Quote
In short, if you [BP team] feel unhappy with what you've achieved. Don't be.

We don't. Sure, there are always areas where we feel it could be better, but that's unavoidable in any creative effort that is finished.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on November 19, 2010, 06:01:09 am
Epic review is epic :D

Thank you for your multitude of words. I have stopped being unhappy with what we've achieved and become awesome instead.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 22, 2010, 01:55:00 pm
Okay, enough is enough. With something like a 100% report rate on this issue and no sense waiting for a code change, I'm gonna try to hotfix Pawns to get rid of the Uriel hugging issue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MC_K on November 23, 2010, 02:46:22 pm
Darius and team,

it might be a bit of a blasphemy to the original FS2 fans, but I'm afraid that Blue planet : war in heaven is even better than the original campaign. As far as the story goes, if I take Blue planet minus age of aquarius (so only war in heaven), I really loved it. I was a bit surprised by the choice of main characters ( I thought a woman came up with this - yeah I'm being a bit chauvinistic here  :D ), but what I also felt was that BP played as an interactive movie. Maybe even because of the music :)

You're on the right track and I'm glad I could played this fantastic sequel to FS2. I don't have anything better to say and you probably have even higher standards that which you've achieved with WiH, so keep on keeping on :) You've done a good job!

Spoiler:
I wondered where Samuel Bei was and for a while, it really felt like I'm playing a different campaign whatsoever, than the sequel to BP1 :D. The choice of characters was surprising, I thought that a woman must have came with that idea :)

Last, but not least...

BoE!!!! Whooo :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MC_K on November 24, 2010, 01:00:00 pm
Oh, and a small doublepost,

when music is really good, I tend to put it on my mp3 player. And I did it with WiH music ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 24, 2010, 01:00:25 pm
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on November 25, 2010, 08:19:40 am
I keep forgetting to ask this...
What does the team think is best lighting setting for playing WiH?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on November 25, 2010, 08:22:34 am
Whatever works for you. The settings recommended in mediavps release topic work well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on November 25, 2010, 08:23:48 am
Fury once suggested having desaturation post-processing applied to all missions to help set the mood. Combine that with ultra-dark settings and...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on November 25, 2010, 08:59:33 am
Fury once suggested having desaturation post-processing applied to all missions to help set the mood. Combine that with ultra-dark settings and...
Case in point. This screenshot was taken with desaturation and film grain post-processing effects during WiH development.

(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5728/screen0099.png)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on November 25, 2010, 09:21:17 am
Oh wow. I have to admit, that coupled with the shockwave effects from ED would look pretty cool.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on November 25, 2010, 10:22:30 am
Holy ****. :eek2:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 26, 2010, 11:47:26 am
There are a bunch of sample lighting settings that you guys can try out over here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Sample_Lighting_Settings). I originally used Spidey's, until I was convinced by QD to revert to default light settings to capture ship images for the Wiki, and since I'm too lazy to keep switching light settings all the time, I'm now using the default light settings only.

For a time, a lot of people (I think) used Herra Tohtori's. Even I used it, until I realised that a small glitch caused the game to read Word documents off reflected surfaces... :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 26, 2010, 06:36:36 pm
I just got done playing this release of BP and I must say that one level really freaked me out!  I'm not going to say which one so I don't spoil anything, but I personally think the developers could really make one heck of a nice fear mod for FS that could top Transcend.  Only question I have about the mod is why it wasn't fully voiced like the last?  I mean, some acknowledgements were voiced, aside from the ones that were left over from the game itself, but that was it.  None of the chats were voiced at all!  Anyone else noticed this?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on November 26, 2010, 06:38:21 pm
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71181.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 26, 2010, 06:45:54 pm
Ah...Well, then forget I asked about the voicing, but I still stand on what I said before.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on November 26, 2010, 07:26:27 pm
There are a bunch of sample lighting settings that you guys can try out over here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Sample_Lighting_Settings). I originally used Spidey's, until I was convinced by QD to revert to default light settings to capture ship images for the Wiki, and since I'm too lazy to keep switching light settings all the time, I'm now using the default light settings only.

For a time, a lot of people (I think) used Herra Tohtori's. Even I used it, until I realised that a small glitch caused the game to read Word documents off reflected surfaces... :lol:
I know about that page and its really useful, too. :yes:
I was more looking for a BP specific lighting setting. The optimal lighting setting so to speak to show off the team's work but still look very dark and cool.

No matter, I can fiddle around with settings some more.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 26, 2010, 11:52:34 pm
Ah...Well, then forget I asked about the voicing, but I still stand on what I said before.

Voice acting the campaign would have held up release by probably more than a year; possibly more like two years. We decided to release without VA the first time around.

The script is several hundred pages long and probably far outstrips that of either the retail campaign or AoA in length.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rscaper1070 on November 27, 2010, 12:42:52 am
Yikes, does that mean 2012 for VA'd WiH?  :( Well once you have a stable of goto actors could you do the VA work parallel to the game development for the other acts?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on November 27, 2010, 01:26:15 am
Yikes, does that mean 2012 for VA'd WiH?  :( Well once you have a stable of goto actors could you do the VA work parallel to the game development for the other acts?
Say it ain't so! You're going to make the rabbit cry.

(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x380/Brandon_Rehayem/crying_rabbit.jpg)
I mean campaigns without voice acting is like french fries without ketchup... sure you can have em plain, but the ketchup just makes them so much better!

I think GB means that voice acting WOULD HAVE delayed WIH so that's why they didn't wait until VA before release.  That makes perfect sense to me,  but that does not mean R2 is the only thing that matters... oh and that VA thing we are going to crank out in 2012. I mean right?  heh...right?!?

Don't scare me like that...  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 27, 2010, 05:47:29 am
Meh, ketchup sucks. And French fries aren't French.

VA is nothing much than the icing on the cake to me. Awesome to have, but the cake (be it a lie or not) remains just as tasty without it :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 27, 2010, 10:31:49 am
Still, that's food.  The only problem I see with not having the VA is finding time to read all that chat in the middle of a dogfight, you know?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 27, 2010, 11:18:44 am
We're moving on it in parallel to R2 development. It'll get done when it's done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on November 27, 2010, 11:31:55 am
We're moving on it in parallel to R2 development. It'll get done when it's done.

Yes.  Hopefully before the end of 2011.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 27, 2010, 11:56:13 am
Man, I'm not sure I can wait that long for Acts 3-5!  The ending of WiH leaves you at a cliff hangar!  I hate it when that happens! :shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 27, 2010, 12:10:33 pm
Release of R2 is independent of progress on voice acting. We're making rapid progress on that as well but we're not ready to set a timeframe. We ended up beating our early projections for R1, so we're just not going to make any for R2!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on November 27, 2010, 04:48:20 pm
Hah, the fedayeen-ending was the ultimate cliffhanger I encounter for years :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on November 27, 2010, 06:27:25 pm
Fedayeen kick ass!.... I hope.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on November 27, 2010, 09:52:27 pm
Hopefully they won't be the lace-wearing milk drinkers than the rest of the fleet seems to be...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 27, 2010, 09:55:25 pm
I would like to introduce you to the Jovian Rim Fleet, my man.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 27, 2010, 10:28:24 pm
Well, what I'd like to know is where the Vishnran (I think that's how you spell it) will come into play?  It seems like they just dropped out of the series after the first BP
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on November 28, 2010, 01:39:13 am
I would like to introduce you to the Jovian Rim Fleet, my man.
That appeared for all of about a minute during the opening and got they're asses handed to them.  I'll give points for effort, but it didn't even look like the Jovians slowed them down all that much.  When Steele wanted to come, he came, and lots of people died.  The Jovians and Martians didn't even make him bat an eye.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 28, 2010, 02:17:35 am
I would like to introduce you to the Jovian Rim Fleet, my man.
That appeared for all of about a minute during the opening and got they're asses handed to them.  I'll give points for effort, but it didn't even look like the Jovians slowed them down all that much.  When Steele wanted to come, he came, and lots of people died.  The Jovians and Martians didn't even make him bat an eye.

:beamz:

/me concusses Liberator all over the universe with the Ubuntu FleetNet News.

You have completely ignored the backstory of WiH. The Rim Fleet more or less stood up alone against everything the GTVA threw at the Federation for eighteen months. Calder held the whole Alliance off on his own with minimal support from either Byrne or Netreba. He held Cyrus Severanti at bay while the other two fleets were doing who knows what. Severanti took eighteen months to capture Jupiter, and the only reason why he was able to do so at the end was because the Alliance decided to send Steele and his entire battlegroup in to assist. Faced with two fleets, a conservative theatre admiral and a master strategist and already weakened from one and a half years of fighting, the Rim Fleet had no chance.

So compare that, Liberator, to how easily Severanti and Steele were able to make headway into Sol after Jupiter fell. It could not have taken more than two months. Compare that to the eighteen months that Calder spent keeping the entire Alliance at bay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on November 28, 2010, 05:06:40 am
Like I said.  I'll give points for trying.  But that's the trouble, the GTVA wasn't committing the kind of force size or composition that would've broken the Jovian line quickly till they got some intel that another Nagari subject had been found.  Then they were in a hurry to wrap the war up.  If the kinds of strategies and the sheer amount of brute force that was applied after 18 months of fighting to hurry the end of it had been applied after the supply line had been secured, which couldn't have taken more than a couple weeks, the war would've been over within 3 or 4 months, the result the same from the GTVA's standpoint, and God only knows how many sailors, pilots and ships on both sides would have been saved. 

The GTVA is behaving more like the Anti-Sprial, trying to evoke absolute despair, than a military or political opponent.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 28, 2010, 08:29:14 am
No. Absolutely wrong.

The GTVA spent those eighteen months painstakingly wearing down the UEF's entrenchment, including the pervasive subspace tracking net.

Furthermore, GTVA strategy was clearly predicated on the desire to force a UEF surrender without significant loss of life or materiel on the UEF side. The GTVA needed that infrastructure and wanted it intact.

Good militaries lose wars. It doesn't make them lace-wearing milk drinkers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 28, 2010, 09:16:57 am
Yeah, Lib, it wasn't in the GTVA's best interests to play Erich von Manstein/Blitzkrieg with them during those 18 months. As Battuta said, the GTVA needed the infrastructure intact. It's a bit like invading China; you don't tear down the Great Wall, brick by brick, when you invade. You break down just as much as you need, then go in and rebuild that portion of the wall.

It may have been your enemy's but hell if it's not helping you, it's at least making your job a tiny bit easier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 28, 2010, 11:06:49 am
Underestimation of the UEF persistence/perseverence?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 28, 2010, 11:22:37 am
The defection of half of Admiral Bei's fleet helped too.
Title: Error at mission 4
Post by: mercer78 on November 28, 2010, 11:55:32 am
Hi there,

i downloaded BP yesterday and at mission 4 i got this error.
see attached file

this are the error message after i kicked out.

Invalid ship class name.

In sexpression: ( when
   ( is-event-true-delay
      "ken: unforgivable"
      7
   )
   ( set-object-position
      "Alpha 1"
      ( get-object-x
         "Alpha 2"
         "<none>"
         0
         0
         500
      )
      ( get-object-y
         "Alpha 2"
         "<none>"
         0
         0
         500
      )
      ( get-object-z
         "Alpha 2"
         "<none>"
         0
         0
         500
      )
   )
   ( set-object-facing-object
      "Alpha 1"
      "Alpha 2"
   )
   ( set-object-facing-object
      "Alpha 2"
      "Alpha 1"
   )
   ( remove-sun-bitmap 1 )
   ( fade-in )
   ( change-ship-class
      "GTF Loki"
      "Alpha 2"
   )
   ( ship-stealthy "Alpha 2" )
   ( set-skybox-model "default" )
   ( mission-set-nebula 1 )
)
(Error appears to be: GTF Loki)
ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
atioglxx.dll! DrvPresentBuffers + 10811861 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>


Verify failure: Vbuf0 != NULL

kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 163 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_12r_INF.exe! <no symbol>


Ship type "UEF Uhlan" found in loadout of mission file. This class is not marked as a player ship...skipping
ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! SCP_DumpStack + 354 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! Warning + 430 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! stuff_loadout_list + 538 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! parse_player_info2 + 165 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! parse_player_info + 299 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! parse_mission + 489 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! parse_main + 449 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! mission_load + 215 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! game_start_mission + 198 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! game_enter_state + 482 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! gameseq_set_state + 310 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! game_process_event + 242 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! gameseq_process_events + 152 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! game_main + 782 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! WinMain + 330 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! __tmainCRTStartup + 358 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_12d_INF_SSE.exe! WinMainCRTStartup + 15 bytes
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 14 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlCreateUserProcess + 140 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlCreateProcessParameters + 78 bytes

hope somebody could help :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 28, 2010, 11:57:22 am
Please read the release post. Make sure you followed the install instructions to the letter. In addition, please post the fs2_open.log fromthe data folder.

At a guess though, I suspect that this "Cockpitmod" thing you are using is to blame. It is not an official BP addition, so please remove it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mercer78 on November 28, 2010, 12:04:09 pm
i followed the install instructions and i have tryed it without the cockpit mod i get the same error :( hier is the file.

Code: [Select]
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 15
  -fov 1.00
  -ogl_spec 20
  -spec_static 1.5
  -spec_point 1.2
  -spec_tube 1.5
  -ambient_factor 35
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -nomotiondebris
  -spec
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -ballistic_gauge
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod cockpitmod,blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x2fa0cebd
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x60465ead
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x24b50f90
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x5d4c1bfb
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x8fea63ef
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\blueplanet1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7cce0d26
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x1541da12
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xcc452f9d
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x060bee91
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe2219ccf
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7e75407b
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x44c7e8dd
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0x377695e0
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\multi-voice-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0xd50e7442
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\Freespace2\cockpitmod\' ... 100 files
Searching root 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 154 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 61 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 660 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 1976 files
Searching root 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\' ... 23 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\blueplanet1.vp' ... 637 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 403 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 685 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 46 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1905 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1892 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root 'C:\Freespace2\' ... 57 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\multi-mission-pack.vp' ... 110 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\multi-voice-pack.vp' ... 307 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Freespace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 35 roots and 21301 files.
Setting language to English
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Software' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 640x480 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : ATI Technologies Inc.
  OpenGL Renderer   : ATI Radeon HD 4800 Series       
  OpenGL Version    : 3.3.9901 Compatibility Profile Context

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr) ...
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 8 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 2147483647
  Max elements indices: 16777215
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  Shader Version: 3.30
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
Loading palette gamepalette1-01
No cached palette file
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 86 frames at 24 fps.
WARNING: "Weapon explosion 'SubbeamWarm' does not have an LOD0 anim!" at weapons.cpp:180
Int3(): From c:\temp\fs2_final_export\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1277
Resetting dynamic tree node limit from 0 to 0...
Resetting dynamic tree node limit from 0 to 0...
Resetting dynamic tree node limit from 0 to 0...
Resetting dynamic tree node limit from 0 to 0...
Freeing all existing models...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Unable to find WEAPON_LIST_TYPE string "Rockeye"  in ship: GTF Ulysses's secondary banks." at parselo.cpp:2259
Int3(): From c:\temp\fs2_final_export\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1277
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 28, 2010, 12:07:26 pm
Code: [Select]
Found root pack 'C:\Freespace2\blueplanet\blueplanet1.vp' with a checksum of 0x7cce0d26
Please delete this file

Code: [Select]
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 640x480 with 32-bit color...
Please use a higher resolution.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 28, 2010, 12:08:28 pm
The defection of half of Admiral Bei's fleet helped too.

Still their decissions to increase forces in Sol was made late.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mercer78 on November 28, 2010, 12:10:50 pm
Thx!!!
after deleting the file bp1.vp it works ! u made my day thx again :)

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 28, 2010, 03:22:29 pm
One thing I've never understood about BP is why did the GTVA want to conquer the Sol system in the first place?  Something about that compared to the rest of the FS history doesn't add up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 28, 2010, 03:39:16 pm
That question has been discussed to death in this here thread. You should check out the tech room for information.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 28, 2010, 05:03:33 pm
One thing I've never understood about BP is why did the GTVA want to conquer the Sol system in the first place?  Something about that compared to the rest of the FS history doesn't add up.

There is an enormous amount of material in the techroom or on the Blue Planet website explaining just that. And yeah, it adds up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 29, 2010, 05:03:23 am
I've got a small question:
What happend to those ships which defected to the UEF?
Are they the reason, why third fleet isn't allowed to use the logistics ship or are they simply part of this spooky project of first fleet...

And by the way, excuse my bad english.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on November 29, 2010, 05:14:04 am
a) they are fighting with UEF-Forces.
b) Or they never defected really to the UEF of course. They defected to the Fedayeen (like the Great War pilots).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 29, 2010, 05:49:50 am
It was Duke, Labouchere and Solace right? It's likely that whatever combat ships defected to the UEF were tasked with defending da seckret projekt, while the Solace herself was involved in it directly. It makes sense since I doubt the Feds will aggresively deploy two ships they're unfamiliar with and that they likely can't crew themselves.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on November 29, 2010, 05:51:19 am
You forgot the Sanctuary.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 29, 2010, 05:52:33 am
If you think about it, how much more valuable are those ships undamaged? The UEF has a window into how GTVA ships and crews operate. They can look for weaknesses in the crew structure and overall hull of the vessel, as well as picking up new things that the GTVA perhaps does a bit better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 29, 2010, 06:11:03 am
Aye...this makes sense...but what about the GTD Temeraire, according to the freespace wiki, the ship defected post mission, but reading the conversations, it sounds that the ship jumped back to Delta serpentis.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on November 29, 2010, 06:12:42 am

Hm, I think that many crew members defect, the ships itself stays with the GTVA (poorly, I liked the Temeraire and Rear Admiral Carey).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 29, 2010, 07:36:03 am
Carey did her part. She's never mentioned directly in War in Heaven, but she plays a key role in the plot.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 29, 2010, 08:15:36 am
Now that you mentioned it...was she the spy who Steele turned?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 29, 2010, 08:22:46 am
May be illuminating. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 29, 2010, 09:03:29 am
Interesting. I had always found it hard to believe Lopez, being the caring sort of officer she is, would go along with such a ruthless plan especially when it presented such a huge amount of danger to her crews. The sort of tension between her and Steele in that discussion is exactly how I played it out in my head before having read 'conversations'.

There is of course the unanswered question of how Steele managed to turn Carey. Assuming it really was Carey that supplied information to the Feds for the Carthage Op.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 29, 2010, 09:06:09 am
Interesting things happen at Blackbird Village.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 29, 2010, 09:45:39 am
The UEF never learned of the identity of the mole. They could have just used her communicator and the UEF never would have known someone else sent the message.
But if it really was Carey, then they probably brainwashed or blackmailed her into doing it.

And I really don't think that Steele was the one to turn her, if she really was turned. He was just the one to reap the benefits of that turning.

I hope WiH2 will play out the growing resentment between Lopez and Steele a bit more, maybe even up to the point were she refuses to go along with his insane schemes and is removed from her post. Defecting to the UEF would go too far for her though I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 29, 2010, 10:02:45 am
The UEF never learned of the identity of the mole. They could have just used her communicator and the UEF never would have known someone else sent the message.
But if it really was Carey, then they probably brainwashed or blackmailed her into doing it.

And I really don't think that Steele was the one to turn her, if she really was turned. He was just the one to reap the benefits of that turning.

I hope WiH2 will play out the growing resentment between Lopez and Steele a bit more, maybe even up to the point were she refuses to go along with his insane schemes and is removed from her post. Defecting to the UEF would go too far for her though I think.

Or Steele goes so far with a motto of "the ends justify the means" that Lopez will try and see him removed from his post.

Either way I got this gut feeling that the Shivans will show up again to force alliances.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 29, 2010, 10:11:05 am
That's what I'm thinking too, but now a days, I beginning to think of the Shivans as a cliche theme.  Someone needs to come up with something more original, you know?  Change it up a bit!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 29, 2010, 10:15:42 am
We have stated that we're committed to resolving the UEF/GTVA war storyline on its own terms, using the elements that have been put into play.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on November 29, 2010, 10:17:39 am
Someone needs to come up with something more original, you know?  Change it up a bit!
Make it an angry AI Pyrgos swarm. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 29, 2010, 10:35:24 am
We have stated that we're committed to resolving the UEF/GTVA war storyline on its own terms, using the elements that have been put into play.

Quite a political-esque statement there. :P I'm hoping that means there'll still be room for Vasudans to come into play in some form or another. Does this statement also cover Mr Cuddles?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nohiki on November 29, 2010, 11:09:14 am
This is THE campaign. I can't describe the epicness of this mod, they didn't make words with enough volume yet. The only thing i totally hate on WiH is that it seems like herecy to play it for the second time. It has such a great story that going through it again is like touching the greatest tabu of all times :D Not even my favourite book (The foundation) deserved that honor from me  :nod: Epic job *wonders if he's gonna survive the waiting for the next part*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 29, 2010, 11:34:20 am
If it wasn't for using original FS models, it could probably release stand-alone as a game. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 29, 2010, 01:39:52 pm
This mod is the only reason why I've digged out my retail CDs and finally installed FSO^^
And now...I fred a little bit but most of the time I replay the campaigns^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 29, 2010, 02:14:34 pm
Hey, I got my copy downloaded again just so I can have it!  I've always loved this game and its series!  DESCENT ROCKS!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on November 29, 2010, 10:33:33 pm
Hey guys,

I just played WiH Part 1. I know I'm a latecomer, but my original plan was to wait until VA had been done. But I decided to treat myself yesterday. Determined to finish it all in one sitting (as I had with AoA), I went to bed at 5AM, lol. Here's my review:

Overall, the mood was a lot darker and grittier than AoA's, which I felt was fitting. It was really made clear that the war had taken it's toll on everyone involved. Noemi Laporte's character was no exception to this, which added a great deal of immersion. It made me see the hostiles as actual pilots as opposed to objects in FRED. No campaign has been able to tear me away from the FREDified thinking for a long time, so for that I applaud you.

As always, character development was excellent. Whilst I didn't get as "attached" to Noemi as to Samuel Bei (meaning I could more easily place myself in Bei's shoes and pretend I was Bei), my curiosity about her thoughts and mindset was piqued right throughout the campaign. The psych evaluation mission in particular had me on the edge of my seat. The F.E.A.R.-esque sounds and flashes really got my adrenaline pumping. I can't wait to hear that mission with voice acting.
However, I'm not only talking about the player character here. Characters like Kassim and Simms were also well fleshed out, and in the case of Admiral Steele, whilst we only encounter him once in-game, his reputation is cemented in Command Briefings and the like as the BP equivalent of Chuck Norris, which I think is awesome. I look forward to his demise.
I think the character development and immersion in general will be greatly enhanced by VA when it comes along.

I have to complement extremely the use of audio. From the subtle change of the commit sound to the new music tracks, it all helped to make me feel a lot more... in the future, I guess. The music IMO is a highlight of this campaign. It greatly contributed to establishing the mood for each mission. I did notice a little pause as the game switched tracks, but that's the game's fault.

The intro cutscene was awesome. Enough said.

The gameplay remained true to the classic FS style, but the new ships and weapons, whilst being limited in their selection, served to freshen the gameplay and also add immersion. I especially liked the tactic of having GTVA weapons available after the capture of the Agincourt, but not compatible with UEF fighters. Brilliant way to highlight the differences between GTVA and UEF technology. It's little details like this that make me really enjoy campaigns as I know the designers have been very thorough and have applied thought to more than just their missions and briefings.
Some of the gameplay ideas implemented here are amazing. Things like checkpoints, calling in the strike package, the amazingly multi-pronged conversation with Lorna Simms, and of course The Blade Itself really got my attention not only as a player, but as a FREDder. I'm definitely going to check out these missions in FRED to see how you guys did these things. Can't wait to learn from your expertise.

Now, when downloading, I had qualms about whether or not to download the advanced visuals. I had read on the forums that ships like the Karuna had raped people's computers. In the end, I decided to go for it and test it out. I was not disappointed. Not only did my computer handle everything perfectly, these ships are beautiful. They contain enough new stuff to make a flashy and surprising ally to escort or enemy to fight, but they hearken back to the FS core that we all know and love. And don't even get me started on the backgrounds. The lunar city... I will definitely be checking that mission out to find out how it works. Amazing. The Saturn background in particular... WOW. When I saw it, I completely ignored the battle and the dialogue for the first few minutes just to stare at it. And let's not forget the falling-into-the-sun background. Whilst I felt that it could have been improved (ie not been mostly just a white circle), it served as a great immersion tool and added to the holy****we'regonnadie factor.

Now, I have to say that I liked AoA's story better (I like fighting aliens), and that AoA got me more immersed and hyped up in general while playing, but I attribute a lot of that immersion to voice acting, so I will not render final judgment onto this campaign until VA is done. Here's hoping for Vishnans in Part 2 or future releases as well.

All in all, a very, very well-crafted campaign. I can see why so many people love it (I do too). However it ranks slightly below AoA in my book, because the deciding factor in my view that differentiates the good from the great is how emotionally involved it gets me. Whilst WiH tried a lot harder to expand on the player character's feelings, this had the opposite effect in terms of how attached I felt to that character. I felt a bit like my feelings were being forced. Not that the PC's feeling expansion was bad, it just detracted from my ability to relate to the character and put myself in her shoes (probably also not helped by the fact I'm male), which I was able to do without much problem with Samuel Bei, as I was given freedom to assign my own feelings to him. Once again, this is not a criticism of the campaign in itself. It simply has a different approach to treatment and expansion of the PC compared to AoA.

As a concluding statement let me say that regardless of what I've said above, I loved playing WiH Part 1. Can't wait for Part 2, and the best of luck to the BP team. You've done a brilliant job so far. I know you won't disappoint in the future.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on November 29, 2010, 11:16:54 pm
No criticism meant, but I always think it's difficult for us to imagine that we're on the battlefield unless we've experienced similar... experiances. Or trauma, really. Not that Laporte is traumaized per se, well maybe she is now, but I think it might be easier to sympathize with Bei at the personal level.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 30, 2010, 03:35:18 am
Good review CommanderDJ, I basically agree with all of that. :yes:

No criticism meant, but I always think it's difficult for us to imagine that we're on the battlefield unless we've experienced similar... experiances. Or trauma, really. Not that Laporte is traumaized per se, well maybe she is now, but I think it might be easier to sympathize with Bei at the personal level.
Yeah, well historically pilots don't really experience the same kind of trauma that infantrymen experience anyway; rarely in fighter squadrons is it something reminiscent of 'All Quiet On The Western Front' kind of stuff. If you read books like 'The Big Show', 'Fighter Pilot' and that, a lot of the trauma was through friends dying, and undoubtedly in the lives of pilots like Clive Caldwell, this kind of stuff had a large effect on them. Reading stuff like Bob Doe's autobiography, it was things like tiredness (something touched on in AQOTWF) and the operational tempo that really worked them over as well (he also mentioned that they used to lose 2-3 pilots per scrap they got in, during the BoB). Characters like Lorna Simms are quite reminiscent of someone who may have been a Squadron OC during the BoB.

Although WiH is a little different than that in its presentation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2010, 07:42:17 am
Quote
Yeah, well historically pilots don't really experience the same kind of trauma that infantrymen experience anyway

Yeah, well, historically, they really do. Check out the memoirs of Quentin C. Aanenson. Read the stories of pilots listening - and watching - their friends burning alive. Read Catch-22; think of what it was like for strategic bomber crews.

I think your argument insults their memory.

Quote
rarely in fighter squadrons is it something reminiscent of 'All Quiet On The Western Front' kind of stuff. If you read books like 'The Big Show', 'Fighter Pilot' and that, a lot of the trauma was through friends dying, and undoubtedly in the lives of pilots like Clive Caldwell, this kind of stuff had a large effect on them. Reading stuff like Bob Doe's autobiography, it was things like tiredness (something touched on in AQOTWF) and the operational tempo that really worked them over as well (he also mentioned that they used to lose 2-3 pilots per scrap they got in, during the BoB). Characters like Lorna Simms are quite reminiscent of someone who may have been a Squadron OC during the BoB.

So now you're saying they did suffer the very psychological stresses presented here. Great.

Quote
Although WiH is a little different than that in its presentation.

Don't see how. Seems like it presents exactly what you're talking about: concern over the loss of friends, fatigue due to operational tempo, stress caused by the enormous responsibilities placed on them. Or are you going to argue that watching ten thousand people die in half a second, ten thousand people explicitly placed under your care, isn't stressful?

There are the Federation's cultural factors as well. But you of all people should appreciate the extraordinary psychological resilience required to serve as a combat pilot.

Here. A jacket quote from a memoir.

Quote
Before war’s end, he would fight in every major air battle on the Western front. He would be forced to watch his friends’ planes streak across the sky after being hit by German flak, blazing like comets as their pilots tried desperately to eject and found themselves stuck inside, burning alive. He would be forced to make decisions about when to let enemies go and when to end their lives. He would be forced to accept the fact that the bombs he dropped over the German front were killing men just like him who only wanted to fight this war and go home as soon as possible. He would be forced to see fellow pilots walking around disfigured after a fire in their planes ignited by enemy fire burned half their faces off, looking like the living dead (and often acting like it, too).

Boy, any of that sound familiar? Seems like a few of those issues popped up here in BP2! Friends dying in screaming agony? Check. Questions about the humanity of enemy pilots? Check. Questions about the ethical nature of the war? Check. Disfigured friendly pilots? Well...I guess we've only got one psychologically disfigured.

I honestly don't get where you're coming from here.GRUMP GRUMP GRUMP

okay i had some coffee now
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 30, 2010, 08:33:50 am
I think you didn't actually read what I wrote. I said fighter pilots for that very reason. Bombers are different environments to fighters.

Your entire argument is based around the fact that by 'trauma infantrymen experience anyway', I'm referring to friends dying. I'm not. That's why I spent an entire paragraph on it. :P
Quote
No criticism meant, but I always think it's difficult for us to imagine that we're on the battlefield unless we've experienced similar... experiances. Or trauma, really. Not that Laporte is traumaized per se, well maybe she is now, but I think it might be easier to sympathize with Bei at the personal level.
I read 'on the battlefield'->'infantry specific trauma' as implying howls of artillery barrages, grit in the trenches, ringing ears, and fumbling with ammunition. Did the fact I read AQOTWF beforehand have something to do with it? Probably. But Ypoknons hasn't come out and said that's not what he was getting at, so it's fair game.

Quote
Although WiH is a little different than that in its presentation.
This I'll admit was a statement that wasn't well thought out.

Quote
I think your argument insults their memory.
Their memory? What memory do you have of them, Battuta? Books, movies, videogames? Were any of your family combat pilots? Were any of your family killed in action as combat pilots?

What ****ing memory of combat pilots do you have to ****ing tell me, that I, am insulting them?

You know what I'm talking about here. Tread carefully.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 30, 2010, 08:36:49 am
Take your fight to IRC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2010, 08:41:51 am
Quote
I think you didn't actually read what I wrote. I said fighter pilots for that very reason. Bombers are different environments to fighters.

There was one whole sentence in my post about bombers, and a great many about fighters, so I'll discard the above as irrelevant.

You're making statements about combat stress vs. exposure. We both know someone, right now, coming home with PTSD after having not fired a shot. I assume you know what I'm talking about.

When you read 'on the battlefield' to mean something other than what it actually means - out there in the war, at its broadest - you're cheapening the suffering of, and sacrifices made by, those who didn't serve in the commonly fetishized role of infantrymen, pilot, or surface combatant crew. We recently had a thread in which recent veterans made it clear this was unwise.

I have experience with loss to combat, directly and, almost more tragically, indirectly. I'm not interested in using those experiences, or the people involved in them, as totems in a pissing match on the Internet.

On the broader level, if you were trying to make the macro point that War in Heaven oversells the stress of combat for military pilots, you're now floundering. The specific congruence between War in Heaven's subject matter and the primary source recollections of combat pilots establish adequate veracity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 30, 2010, 08:59:35 am
Quote
When you read 'on the battlefield' to mean something other than what it actually means - out there in the war, at its broadest - you're cheapening the suffering of, and sacrifices made by, those who didn't serve in the commonly fetishized role of infantrymen, pilot, or surface combatant crew. We recently had a thread in which recent veterans made it clear this was unwise.
Fair enough. I have no intention of insulting anyone.

Quote
On the broader level, if you were trying to make the macro point that War in Heaven oversells the stress of combat for military pilots, you're now floundering. The specific congruence between War in Heaven's subject matter and the primary source recollections of combat pilots establish adequate veracity.
I'm not posting with the intention of making any point of the sort. In fact, now that I read what I wrote, it has little relevance to what Ypoknons was actually saying, let alone it being made with the intention of an argument. You also take 'Although WiH is a little different than that in its presentation.' to mean that WiH didn't present those things, or at least, that's how I'm reading it based on what you've posted. That's not what I was getting at. I was getting at the fact that for Laporte, killing, the stress about her feelings for it and the fact she ends up with a penchant for it, is also a major point of her being in those circumstances, rather than it just being what I'd mentioned earlier. Perhaps I wasn't specific? Sure. But was I meaning 'WIH IS SO ****ING INACCURATE COMPARED TO THE EXAMPLES I GAVE MAN?' No, I was not.

I'm too tired for this, but I'm not posting with the intention of proposing some argument against why WiH does x, y, or z incorrectly. If you'd like to play smart ass and quote parts of my posts that say otherwise, you can go ahead and feel validated, but I'm not going to bother.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2010, 09:02:37 am
That's a fair response. My angle was coming off your agreement with DJ's review and then quoting Ykonopon's statement here:

Quote
No criticism meant, but I always think it's difficult for us to imagine that we're on the battlefield unless we've experienced similar... experiances. Or trauma, really. Not that Laporte is traumaized per se, well maybe she is now, but I think it might be easier to sympathize with Bei at the personal level.

I read it as disagreement with the notion that Laporte, in particular, is rendered inaccessible by the fact that few of us have experienced combat stress. As per the above citations, I think the life of a combat fighter pilot is extraordinarily stressful and traumatic, and I would be surprised to hear you disagree given all you know.

Thus the rest.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on November 30, 2010, 09:08:42 am
Ah right, fair enough.

As per the above citations, I think the life of a combat fighter pilot is extraordinarily stressful and traumatic, and I would be surprised to hear you disagree given all you know.
Oh, did I say I disagreed?

Well, my bad. :D I'm too tired to go and look right now, but I don't have the intention of putting that across.

Wait, I think I misread your post. :\ Well, whatever. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 30, 2010, 10:25:24 am
Way I see it, if we want to have that feel that we're on the battlefield, just enable the cockpit views.  There you go.  Now, you feel as if you're in a real fighter with real baddies hammering down on you.  I mean, come on.  That's as close to a feeling that you're out on a real battlefield as you're going to get.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on November 30, 2010, 10:44:47 am
I tend to be a bit more general and vague about my positions, mostly because I'm quite occupied with career and school, I attend an accelerated post-graduate program, so I don't anyways have to time to research, check and defend my positions.

Regarding the military in particular, while I have done enough reading to get a basic idea of solider psychology, enough to appreciate what's going in WiH, there's only so much depth I feel comfortable discussing. Especially, where I am living current , Hong Kong, is one of the most demilitarized cultures around as defense has always been handled by the controlling power (formerly Great Britain, now the PRC), meaning we really have little contact with military affairs (unlike our close cultural cousin Singapore). So that might factor a bit into my original post as well, some of the distance I feel because I'm reaching out quite far from where I am.

Whereas with father issues and striving towards... I don't know what with Bei really wants, I really do need to replay AoA, but it seems easier to get, closer, more everyday.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 30, 2010, 10:47:32 am
@NFSRacer: The worst mistake one can make with any principle of game design is to use polishing as the only solution and means to make a game more immersive. A good example is MMO's which keep adding monthly minigames and funky effects to 'entertain' the player until an expansion pack is for sale: a recent MMO which updated it's graphics and world will find half of it's playerbase miraculously disappearing in a period of 18-24 months, you watch. :) But yea, cockpits don't cut it. Immersion is when you stare at the screen, living the story while aftewards you say "well ****, I'm staring at a monitor, I totally forgot!". BUT, for me Delenda Est for example IS very immersive and does give a feel of loss and grief over the pilots who go down. So I think the way BP is going, it is doing just great.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 30, 2010, 11:41:24 am
@NFSRacer: The worst mistake one can make with any principle of game design is to use polishing as the only solution and means to make a game more immersive. A good example is MMO's which keep adding monthly minigames and funky effects to 'entertain' the player until an expansion pack is for sale: a recent MMO which updated it's graphics and world will find half of it's playerbase miraculously disappearing in a period of 18-24 months, you watch. :)

Wait, so adding stuff is better than updating existing stuff? Am I getting that correctly? :confused:


But yea, cockpits don't cut it.

Cockpits break my copy of FS2. I'm too lazy to troubleshoot, so I can live without them.


Immersion is when you stare at the screen, living the story while aftewards you say "well ****, I'm staring at a monitor, I totally forgot!". BUT, for me Delenda Est for example IS very immersive and does give a feel of loss and grief over the pilots who go down. So I think the way BP is going, it is doing just great.

Funnily enough, immersion for me is when I panic and start asking myself a million times what my assigned controls are. I get that in WiH and, surprisingly, multiplayer. I don't usually get that in single-player because I tend to cheat. Being a beta tester for WiH, however, means that I try not to cheat while playing so as to give the most accurate feedback as I can to the devs. That helps to immerse me into the game as well. The immersion in WiH is so strong that, despite playing what has been released a number of times already, I still cannot remember precisely what happens and where or when it happens.

And yes, I still panic in the opening seconds of The Cost of War. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 30, 2010, 12:52:23 pm
@NFSRacer: The worst mistake one can make with any principle of game design is to use polishing as the only solution and means to make a game more immersive. A good example is MMO's which keep adding monthly minigames and funky effects to 'entertain' the player until an expansion pack is for sale: a recent MMO which updated it's graphics and world will find half of it's playerbase miraculously disappearing in a period of 18-24 months, you watch. :)

Wait, so adding stuff is better than updating existing stuff? Am I getting that correctly? :confused:

No, I meant to say that adding small details such as cockpits as enhancements alone do not miraculously fix problems as NFSRacer thinks. If BP would have had problems with immersion (it does not, the story is VERY immersive already as is the building of tension in the missions with it's unexpected events) NSFRacer's suggestion of adding cockpits isn't a magic solution. I used the example that many games on the market try to implement gimmicks to their repertoire with the hopes of making a game great, something common in the less succesful MMORPG's out there. Some very young MMO's, barely 2-3 years on the market have shut down for that reason. Those games added 'metaphorical cockpits' thinking their problem was solved. As far as I'm concerned BP doesn't have problems though and is far more solid story-wise to me than the retail campaign (I'm never much of a nostalgic anyway). I could have worded that all far better though.


But yea, cockpits don't cut it.

Cockpits break my copy of FS2. I'm too lazy to troubleshoot, so I can live without them.

As can I, live without them that is. Compared to the rest of the game cockpits aren't quite as high quality as the fighters and ships are. I don't miss them either.


Immersion is when you stare at the screen, living the story while aftewards you say "well ****, I'm staring at a monitor, I totally forgot!". BUT, for me Delenda Est for example IS very immersive and does give a feel of loss and grief over the pilots who go down. So I think the way BP is going, it is doing just great.

Funnily enough, immersion for me is when I panic and start asking myself a million times what my assigned controls are. I get that in WiH and, surprisingly, multiplayer. I don't usually get that in single-player because I tend to cheat. Being a beta tester for WiH, however, means that I try not to cheat while playing so as to give the most accurate feedback as I can to the devs. That helps to immerse me into the game as well. The immersion in WiH is so strong that, despite playing what has been released a number of times already, I still cannot remember precisely what happens and where or when it happens.

And yes, I still panic in the opening seconds of The Cost of War. :p

And are you thinking "oh yea, what does it matter, I can start again"? I think not. ;) So yep, you're very immersed, glad to hear you're having as much fun as I do! :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 30, 2010, 03:18:24 pm
I'm not saying it fixes it!  I'm just saying that it'll enhance the feeling.  You've got the wrong idea, dude.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on November 30, 2010, 03:21:18 pm
Dude? :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 30, 2010, 03:24:28 pm
Whatever.  You get my point now!

Also, after reading my post time and again about adding in the cockpit views, I realized that I didn't get my point across with what I wrote down; I had just woken up at that time, so I was half asleep.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2010, 03:25:11 pm
It's all cool, mah homologues.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 30, 2010, 03:28:48 pm
Still, what I would like to see with the cockpits is the dashboards acting like real cockpits with all the lights and what not?  That really would make the game better in my opinion since I like a realistic look to my games, but that's for a different discussion, one that I can do when I get back from work tonight.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2010, 03:34:01 pm
Like this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EHOhOYiOEA)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on November 30, 2010, 03:43:03 pm
Like this! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EHOhOYiOEA)

Saw that today, quite wowed me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 30, 2010, 03:50:14 pm
Just like that, basically!

EDIT:  Btw, does anyone know the release date of that mod?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2010, 03:54:55 pm
Just like that, basically!

EDIT:  Btw, does anyone know the release date of that mod?

Diaspora will be done when it's done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 30, 2010, 03:56:50 pm
Well, that's a little enigmatic.  Fine, I'll ask on the Diaspora boards.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on November 30, 2010, 04:02:33 pm
Jeez, some people just don't get it....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on November 30, 2010, 04:04:17 pm
Hey, I just prefer a good answer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2010, 04:05:25 pm
Hey, I just prefer a good answer.

That is the official answer. It's the same release date BP2 had, and, now, the same release date BP2R2 has.

Nobody can predict when a mod will be done. It'll be done when it's finished. That's the best anyone can do, and the best answer you'll get.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: vurt on December 01, 2010, 07:32:40 am
I've been lurking for a long time, just wanted to say this mod isn't so much a mod as a work of art. You can tell that a lot of effort went into getting all the details right; the atmosphere, the music but most of all the emotion. This mod takes you through an emotional roller coaster, and that's what makes a memorable gaming experience. You actually feel the loss of each capital ship, because you're always reminded that you're in a dire situation in the war and capital ships are few and far between. Big difference to a lot of other mods, where capital ships are constantly coming and going and end up coming off as expendable. This is just another one of those little details, and like I said, details are what separates this mod from the rest.

My only gripes were the lack of voice acting (totally understandable though) given the sheer amount of dialogue, and the alert sound was too loud and obnoxious for my taste. Could have done with something a little more subdued, it'll stand out even if it's not blaring in your ears I think ;)

Looking forward to the continuation. And oh how I wish I had the time these days to learn FREDding after playing this :(

Spoiler:
And I was NOT expecting that ending. I thought "Finally after all this despair it's time to kick some TEV ass and turn this thing around!" which quickly turned to "Oh no.. you BASTARDS!" What a cliff hanger!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 01, 2010, 09:40:21 am
Spoiler:
And I was NOT expecting that ending. I thought "Finally after all this despair it's time to kick some TEV ass and turn this thing around!" which quickly turned to "Oh no.. you BASTARDS!" What a cliff hanger!
But at least we got a very nice closing sequence with great music. I love that closing sequence. Reminds me a lot of the way Gundam 00 foreshadowed it's 2nd season at the end of season 1, only with better music ;) . Not that daybreak's bell is a bad song, but unborn child is still better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on December 01, 2010, 11:06:52 am
I didn't like the ending music. Well, not the music itself, but the fact it had words. Music with lyrics and games don't work well IMHO. The ending was still awesome though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on December 01, 2010, 02:36:10 pm
The only way to get an exact release date is when developers are employed (thus paid), a distributor has a deadline and said developers have no other reallife commitments. And even then it moves about several times.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 02, 2010, 03:58:14 am
You mean if the publisher is bound and determined to force the developers into releasing on time, no matter if they are finished or not?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on December 02, 2010, 04:33:29 am
I didn't like the ending music. Well, not the music itself, but the fact it had words. Music with lyrics and games don't work well IMHO. The ending was still awesome though.
I thought it was fitting... Music with words usually don't fit with the actual gameplay parts, no?
Probably just personal preference anyway. I know people that shun music with lyrics completely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 02, 2010, 05:15:46 am
That song couldn't work without the lyrics at least not in WiH. If you listen they're relevant to the story, to an extent.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 02, 2010, 05:33:34 am
Surprise, surprise I've got a question:
The UEF Stealthfighter...
Why can't it carry the paveway, I mean, it would be usefull to send some of these, disable a certan ship with paveways and reinforcement have an easy job, wouldn't it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 02, 2010, 06:11:14 am
Surprise, surprise I've got a question:
The UEF Stealthfighter...
Why can't it carry the paveway, I mean, it would be usefull to send some of these, disable a certan ship with paveways and reinforcement have an easy job, wouldn't it?

That would have made the UEF's job too easy, if all they had to do was send in these little buggers and Pave the Way. Besides, I think the Paveway is near the larger end of the scale when it comes to regular missile size.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 02, 2010, 07:00:44 am
I too think it fits the situation of WiH very well.

Code: [Select]
This is not new conversation
Many people feel this way
History repeats itself again
In this ruthless world, the killing
Broken people all around
It's a shame, but it seems to never end

Aney, Aney, you, my unborn child
Sorry, sorry, I can't sing a brighter lullaby

A new day of realization
Future mothers plead
Let my body be a source for peace
Feeling fear 'cause there's no telling
What will follow in the years
Lost in doubt and hesitation, forgive me please

Aney, Aney, you, my unborn child
Sorry, sorry, I can't sing a brighter lullaby

I've never met you, though I've felt you in a dream
Hearts whispered in silence, you were there
No, I couldn't assure you, everything will be alright
For now, I walk this shadow world alone.... so alone

Governments and all they promise
I can see their lies
Now the price is just too high to pay
Hatred, poverty and darkness
Who will bring us light?
Can't we stop the pain and just start living life?

You, generals heartless
Make your wars, have you no god?
Truth unite all mothers of the world
For love, peace and freedom, we must find a better way
Hope given back to my unborn child every child

Aney, Aney
want to sing a brighter lullaby
Aney, Aney
Source: http://www.songmeanings.net/songs/view/3530822107858698421/
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 02, 2010, 07:02:03 am
The Paveway probably has too much of an energy/heat signature whatever to leave the ship stealthy. That would be my excuse against uber weapons on a stealth fighter.

EDIT: ninja'ed. Looking at the lyrics there they are indeed very relevant to the story.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on December 03, 2010, 05:05:08 am
The Paveway probably has too much of an energy/heat signature whatever to leave the ship stealthy. That would be my excuse against uber weapons on a stealth fighter.

EDIT: ninja'ed. Looking at the lyrics there they are indeed very relevant to the story.

That and it's Origa, she has an amazing voice, how can you not like it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on December 03, 2010, 05:17:35 am
You mean if the publisher is bound and determined to force the developers into releasing on time, no matter if they are finished or not?

Yep which is a real shame. Therefor "done when it is done gets my vote" ;).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on December 03, 2010, 08:20:47 am
That and it's Origa, she has an amazing voice, how can you not like it.

Because her earlier albums were mostly atrocious as compositions? :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: StarfuryB5 on December 04, 2010, 02:19:22 pm
Didn't know where to post this so i did it here.
Whenever i start the game, after the intro it says that the currently loaded mod has generated 66 errors during application launch etc...(don't remember the whole thing) and when i'm past the intro and that log entry, it gives me an error saying

Could not load in 2_CommandBrief-mb!
<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! CreateThread + 30 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

And then i get the briefing, but i can't click anywhere with the mouse and pressing enter does nothing, so i can't start the first mission. You're probably gonna say that i've installed/placed something incorrectly, but i've checked everything a million times.
I have original FS2, latest (3.6.12INF) SCP, latest (3.6.12) mediavps, latest BP:AoA DC (the one that uses 3.6.12) in "blueplanet" folder, BP:WiH in "blueplanet2" folder, latest launcher (5.5g), no advanced mediavps or anything, 3D ship/weapon selection enabled. That is i think all that is mentioned in the release thread, and it's still not working...   :confused::mad:

Can anyone help pls? I really liked the first part and i wanna play this one too...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 04, 2010, 02:22:52 pm
I'm gonna guess your resolution is set to 640x480 in the launcher. Turn it up.

If that doesn't work, please post a debug log; it'll let us solve your problem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 04, 2010, 02:29:48 pm
Please post an fs2_open.log. http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.msg1180359#msg1180359
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on December 04, 2010, 02:31:38 pm
I had a similar problem at the proper resolution (not at 640x480), but as it turns out, it was the STEAM interface I was running with FS2.  If you're running that, open the interface, then close it, and it should work again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: StarfuryB5 on December 04, 2010, 03:05:58 pm
No STEAM whatsoever...^^

Heres the log (attached), and my system specs:

OS: WinXP
Graphics Card: ATI Radeon HD3750
CPU: cpuz log in attachments
Memory: 3GB

When i launch it with debug exe it gives this error:

Weapon explosion 'MS_Impact' does not have an LOD0 anim!
<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! SCP_DumpStack + 354 bytes
<no module>! Warning + 430 bytes
<no module>! weapon_explosions::Load + 296 bytes
<no module>! parse_weapon + 7848 bytes
<no module>! parse_weaponstbl + 172 bytes
<no module>! parse_modular_table + 267 bytes
<no module>! weapon_init + 101 bytes
<no module>! game_init + 1900 bytes
<no module>! game_main + 519 bytes
<no module>! WinMain + 330 bytes
<no module>! __tmainCRTStartup + 358 bytes
<no module>! WinMainCRTStartup + 15 bytes
<no module>! RegisterWaitForInputIdle + 73 bytes

The error without the debug mode is explained in my previous post on this thread.


[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 04, 2010, 03:08:22 pm
Please open the mod.ini in the blueplanet2 folder. Replace it with this:
Code: [Select]
# PLEASE NOTE ALL INI SETTINGS ARE *OPTIONAL*

# modname:       Display name only, so you can have spaces instead of underscores for multi word MOD's
# image255x112:  Location of a 255x112 bmp you wish to display in the launcher
# infotext:      Text that will appear in the launcher
# website:       Link to your website
# forum:         Link to your forum
[launcher]
modname      = Blue Planet 2;
image255x112 = bplogo.bmp;
infotext     = Eighteen months after Age of Aquarius, the UEF/GTVA war enters its final, apocalyptic phase.
website      = http://blueplanet.hard-light.net;
forum        = http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/board,169.0.html;
[multimod]
primarylist  = ;
secondarylist = blueplanet,mediavps_3612;
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: StarfuryB5 on December 04, 2010, 03:18:44 pm
Seems to be working. HUUUUUGE thanks man you've just saved my night. Though i dunno where i fcked it up...
Beer opened, cigarette lit, missiles loaded, cleared for departure!  :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Niue on December 05, 2010, 08:38:29 pm
I've been a fan of the Freespace series ever since it first came out; though when I initially bought it, it came as a dual pack with an equally obscure RPG (Descent to Underworld or Undermountain?).  The original FS1 and FS2 had amazing plotlines, and once I upgraded to FSOpen and got around to the Blue Planet: AoA and WIH, its amazing to see how the Freespace community after all of these years has continued to build immersion into such a rich science fiction universe.  Both Blue Planets are a testament to the skill of the modding community, and its sad to see that there aren't many commerical space sims anymore... not that it matters since the Freespace chronology represents the pinnacle of space superiority dogfighting (I wouldn't be surprised if real life militaries use a HUD that resembles the FS HUD in the future) and capital ship warfare simulations.

One thing I liked the most about the Blue Planet series is how it attempts to realistically portray the sociopolitical aspects of both the GTVA and the UEF in the post-Capellan era.  The complex nature of both the characters within, as well as the grey-on-grey morality with regards to which government best represents humanity's interests, are qualities that aren't found much in science fiction anymore (or most fiction in general!).  The realism in that regard is what drew me in... so I guess for me the emphasis on plot, character development, and storytelling should continue to be the focus of the Blue Planet series (the gameplay is great too, feels like canon FS1/FS2 battles).

Keep up the excellent work!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 05, 2010, 08:58:23 pm
Thank you! Glad you liked it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 06, 2010, 03:28:36 am
also, :welcome:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on December 06, 2010, 05:27:24 am
Hey guys,
Just gotta thank the BP team once again. In my initial review a few pages back I didn't convey my initial impressions completely accurately. Initially, I was (to be frank) quite disappointed. I thought AoA was better and didn't feel as immersed, mostly because I didn't feel I cared about the characters at all, in contrast to AoA where I was genuinely concerned as to what was going to happen to them. However, just now I've relistened to some of the music from BP2, and my mind was cast back to the conversations between Simms and Laporte, and stuff like their sparring sessions etc, and I've realised that I've started to care, and all of a sudden I see the campaign in a whole new light. So yeah, you guys have done it again, it just took a little while. Thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 06, 2010, 07:24:22 am
I think a lot of it is a function of voice acting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on December 06, 2010, 08:52:43 am
I agree, that did play a huge part in AoA. Either way, BP as a whole is made of win.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Killer Whale on December 16, 2010, 06:28:08 am
War In Heaven is the best video game I have ever played. In the short time before I started really comparing it to other stuff, it was also the best fiction I've ever seen. After thinking about it a bit more its more like the third best fiction
Scrap that, I didn't realise til a while after that post that it changed by perception. Best work of fiction ever.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on December 18, 2010, 04:49:54 pm
Whoah, today I took my notebook to a friend and his 50" Plasma-TV and his HDMI-7.1 Reciever/Amplifier to watch some films. But first I showed him the intro of War in Heaven on the big screen. The brilliance of the image and sound just blew me away while I was explaining to him what was going on there - I shed tears telling him that earth's fighting a war it cannot win lol... man that was kinda ridicoulus (I didn't cry but had wet eyes :D ).

Just wanted to tell you how good your work really was there (and I how nerdy I feel right now)...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: esarai on December 21, 2010, 10:44:18 am
I took my notebook to a friend and his 50" Plasma-TV and his HDMI-7.1 Reciever/Amplifier

I envy you.  The WiH intro on that.... damn.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on December 21, 2010, 11:47:33 am
Hell, modding this game seems quite easy, so try just the SCP, if not WiH!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 21, 2010, 12:15:50 pm
I took my notebook to a friend and his 50" Plasma-TV and his HDMI-7.1 Reciever/Amplifier

I envy you.  The WiH intro on that.... damn.

I play it on my 32' LG HDTV :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on December 21, 2010, 02:52:22 pm
Really. Buy a HDMI-ready computer + big screen (and probably a 5.1 or 7.1 home-cinema) and play your games on it. I'm gonna sell my 24inch monitor and take the damn 42inch LED-TV instead. It was just so awesome :shaking:

Whats all of this together when you buy good quality? 3000 bucks?
It's worth the experience! :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on December 21, 2010, 02:56:14 pm
Just mind the resolution. Big TV's with bad resolution make games look bad. Also very high resolutions make games play slow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on December 21, 2010, 03:57:22 pm
Just mind the resolution. Big TV's with bad resolution make games look bad. Also very high resolutions make games play slow.

Exactly!  You need to try to find a balance between quality and performance before you should try the big screen TV thing.  Otherwise, you're just wasting time and effort for something that looks bad or not all that great.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on December 21, 2010, 06:07:31 pm
My monitor is 26", it has a resolution of 1920x1200 and it can double as a television because it has a seperate port for a cable or connection to other forms of TV. I find it to still be sharp enough with a big screen, yet the resolution isn't killing my games to low FPS. Instead of being a TV which can work as a decent monitor, this is a monitor like others, but which makes a rather nice TV. Televisions often have worse resolution. So did I once have a 30" or so television which could double as monitor but which was only able to handle a resolution of I think 1280 x 960 or even only 1024 x 768. Things got very pixelated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on December 21, 2010, 08:39:24 pm
Television resolution != monitor resolution

1080p is only 1080 lines tall, my main monitor on my rig is only 30 lines short of that and it's only 21 inches diagonal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on December 22, 2010, 12:17:49 am
It's not just the size, it's your distance from the screen as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on December 22, 2010, 04:07:31 am
Speaking from experience a good distance from a 42" is about 6 feet.  This is impractical in a lot of situations, but there it is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 23, 2010, 12:42:11 am
Six feet is about half a room's length in Singapore. :eek:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on December 23, 2010, 03:31:29 am
Umm...I'm sorry you guys live in crackerboxes? ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 23, 2010, 08:54:52 am
Umm...I'm sorry you guys live in crackerboxes? ;)

You could say that. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on December 23, 2010, 01:04:52 pm
Six feet is about half a room's length in Singapore. :eek:
Older apartments pretty much invariably have more living space than new ones, I find. Probably due to new laws forcing everyone to have a bomb shelter on the 11th floor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on December 23, 2010, 01:06:58 pm
Six feet is about half a room's length in Singapore. :eek:
Probably due to new laws forcing everyone to have a bomb shelter on the 11th floor.
And what happens when they're below that floor?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on December 23, 2010, 01:28:01 pm
You missed the point. Are bomb shelters going to work if they're on the 11th floor?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on December 23, 2010, 01:32:36 pm
**** no.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on December 23, 2010, 07:12:32 pm
Yeah, but for a time it was necessary for all new apartments and houses to have at least one bomb shelter per floor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on December 24, 2010, 10:12:21 am
Sounds like giving people a hoax-assurance. A bit like telling people to duck and cover behind a carton box when a nuclear bomb hits 5 miles away from them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 24, 2010, 04:22:05 pm
Like a seargeant I knew once said:

"This CBRN suit will protect you from any chemical, biological, radiological or nuclear threat. When an A-bomb gets dropped and starts knocking over f*cking buildings this suit will keep you 100% safe."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 24, 2010, 04:34:35 pm
Get horizontal, kevlar towards the flash which just blinded you lol.

Kids..... Back in my day we called it NBC :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Astronomiya on December 24, 2010, 06:31:05 pm
Sounds like giving people a hoax-assurance. A bit like telling people to duck and cover behind a carton box when a nuclear bomb hits 5 miles away from them.
Which, funnily enough, will provide some measure of protection.  Five miles away from a modern strategic warhead (usually in the 3-500 kT range), the box won't protect you from the blast, which you probably would not die from at that distance completely unprotected, but it will take the thermal pulse for you, meaning it burns, not you.  Ionizing radiation at five miles distance is not a concern with that size warhead either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on December 24, 2010, 11:35:23 pm
Umm, Astro, I think the people in Nagasaki circa 1945 would disagree about the effects of ionizing rads further out than 5 miles on bombs under 1kt.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 25, 2010, 12:48:39 am
I do think he means tactical, but Fat Man was actually 21 kT
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Canna_Bis on December 25, 2010, 01:17:46 am
Be advised that the nuke was dropped a few miles from the city... The bomber's crew simply missed...

BTW: They would archieve the same effect dropping the Little Boy and/or Fat Man on an uninhabited island...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Astronomiya on December 26, 2010, 03:21:46 am
Umm, Astro, I think the people in Nagasaki circa 1945 would disagree about the effects of ionizing rads further out than 5 miles on bombs under 1kt.
I never said anything regarding fallout, which is a large problem just five miles from a nuclear detonation, especially a groundburst.  In terms of the initial blast, though?  An utter non-factor at that distance; in fact, the smaller the nuke is, the relatively more dangerous the ionizing radiation gets.  Read this (http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Nwfaq/Nfaq5.html) FAQ; I've already linked to the relevant page in it.

And Mars, no I do not mean tactical; a modern strategic warhead is indeed usually 3-500 kT.  It's more efficient to use a whole bunch of smaller devices on a dispersed target like a city in a circular pattern than detonating one really big one over the target's center.  Doing so increases the area over which a large amount of blast overpressure (greater than ~10 psi) is generated, thus destroying more hard targets.  On a side note, it is a cruel irony that going with a counterforce strategy (targeting factories, military bases, railyards, etc.) over a countervalue one (targeting population) kills more people.  This is because of the heavily increased fallout from all the groundbursts needed to get the required overpressure to destroy all the targets.  A countervalue strategy is more effectively carried out using airbursts, so you can maximize the area over which the thermal pulse starts fires and inflicts lethal 3rd-degree burns.  Fun fun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on December 26, 2010, 04:34:06 am
Or you could, you know, drop a rock from orbit and say it was an Act of God.  Though do it too much and they might catch on...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 26, 2010, 11:38:25 am
My understanding is that strategic nukes start at 100 kT and work their way up.
Strategic Nuclear Weapon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_nuclear_weapon)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on December 27, 2010, 12:08:18 am
That must be a relatively recent classification, because the bombs dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were less than 20 kTs, yet were strategic.
Perhaps it depends where you drop them?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Astronomiya on December 27, 2010, 01:32:16 am
That must be a relatively recent classification, because the bombs dropped at Hiroshima and Nagasaki were less than 20 kTs, yet were strategic.
Perhaps it depends where you drop them?
No, it's actually been around for a while.  Following the wiki link Mars posted, it really depends on what the bombs are used for; tactical nukes are used on the battlefield, while strategic ones are usually used for targeting logistics and command and control assets.  The yields of each tend to separate out naturally because of these different missions.  You want a small nuke on the battlefield to avoid killing your own troops and minimize collateral damage, while when you're going after the enemy's industry, a much larger yield per weapon is more effective.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on January 07, 2011, 09:10:32 pm
The support ship seems to be rather eager to rearm me if I fly the Atalanta. :p
(http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/1010/screen0195.png)
(http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/265/screen0197.png)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 08, 2011, 04:19:22 am
You sure know how to run your ship down... :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 08, 2011, 06:39:15 am
Not willing to touch that dirty Tev hardware me suspects...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2011, 10:30:52 am
speed 303
 
:wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on January 08, 2011, 10:42:18 am
All rockets and bombs inside the support-ship fired without releasing them :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 08, 2011, 10:49:17 am
speed 303
 
:wtf:


Perhaps it just came out from subspace, but then again, the Sathanas barely manages 837, and it slows down very fast the moment it fully appears.

Yeah. :wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on January 09, 2011, 01:00:26 am
speed 303
 
:wtf:


Perhaps it just came out from subspace, but then again, the Sathanas barely manages 837, and it slows down very fast the moment it fully appears.

Yeah. :wtf:

Nope, it's not to do with subspace. I tried again to see if the Hygeia suffers the same problem. It came out of subspace at normal speed (about 20mps) and then immediately accelerated to around 330mps. So I believe it is something to do with the Atalanta's (and by extension, the original Kvasir's) paths.
(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/8042/screen0201.png)

You sure know how to run your ship down... :p

Haha; I've been trying that mission again to try the Tev ships out - while I was able to complete it originally in the Draco, I got killed multiple times in that and the Nyx when I retried it. I was able to complete it again when I tried the Atalanta.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on January 09, 2011, 02:26:09 am
yea, Kent's a great fighter, very fast, lots of primaries and secondaries, average durability. And slammers. Draco's even faster but it's got less guns and missles; Nyx has tons of firepower and shields but the low speed hurts in the BP world (Sol theater if we want to use the in-universe terminology). Atalanta's a good mix, I always try to finish those off first, very bad to have on your tail (especially in a Uhlan), though it's not as fast as the Kent.

Of course in-universe the trade-off is that GTVA fighters have longer endurance and inter-system drives, but hey.

Come to think of it, I loved WiH's protrayal of Maxim, Balor and Treb weapon systems... here's begging for some cool new GTVA fighter weapons to fly against in R2? ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on January 09, 2011, 11:49:45 am
speed 303
 
:wtf:


Perhaps it just came out from subspace, but then again, the Sathanas barely manages 837, and it slows down very fast the moment it fully appears.

Yeah. :wtf:

Nope, it's not to do with subspace. I tried again to see if the Hygeia suffers the same problem. It came out of subspace at normal speed (about 20mps) and then immediately accelerated to around 330mps. So I believe it is something to do with the Atalanta's (and by extension, the original Kvasir's) paths.
*image redacted*

Autogen paths in PCS2 and make sure they're saved, sometimes they're not. I ran into this exact issue before (mentioned in the Kvasir thread) and fixed it that way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on January 10, 2011, 12:04:35 pm
yea, Kent's a great fighter, very fast, lots of primaries and secondaries, average durability. And slammers. Draco's even faster but it's got less guns and missles; Nyx has tons of firepower and shields but the low speed hurts in the BP world (Sol theater if we want to use the in-universe terminology). Atalanta's a good mix, I always try to finish those off first, very bad to have on your tail (especially in a Uhlan), though it's not as fast as the Kent.

Of course in-universe the trade-off is that GTVA fighters have longer endurance and inter-system drives, but hey.

Come to think of it, I loved WiH's protrayal of Maxim, Balor and Treb weapon systems... here's begging for some cool new GTVA fighter weapons to fly against in R2? ;)
I loved the Nyx, its pretty much an updated erinyes. I personally never got used to the Kent, I'm a heavy over speed kinda player I guess  :p
Shame you were only allowed to pick a GTVA fighter in one mission
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ION3 on January 10, 2011, 12:13:26 pm
Quote
I personally never got used to the Kent, I'm a heavy over speed kinda player I guess

Really? The Kent is godlike! I mean it has almost the same fire power and missle capacity as the Nyx but is MUCH faster. The backwards afterburner especially makes it very deadly. It's disadvantage is thatit is quite large, easy to hit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 10, 2011, 12:17:19 pm
yea, Kent's a great fighter, very fast, lots of primaries and secondaries, average durability. And slammers. Draco's even faster but it's got less guns and missles; Nyx has tons of firepower and shields but the low speed hurts in the BP world (Sol theater if we want to use the in-universe terminology). Atalanta's a good mix, I always try to finish those off first, very bad to have on your tail (especially in a Uhlan), though it's not as fast as the Kent.

Of course in-universe the trade-off is that GTVA fighters have longer endurance and inter-system drives, but hey.

Come to think of it, I loved WiH's protrayal of Maxim, Balor and Treb weapon systems... here's begging for some cool new GTVA fighter weapons to fly against in R2? ;)
I loved the Nyx, its pretty much an updated erinyes. I personally never got used to the Kent, I'm a heavy over speed kinda player I guess  :p
Shame you were only allowed to pick a GTVA fighter in one mission

Something we have in common, which is why in WoD I chose the Ray III-W (Whereas a lot of people went for the E). I've never bothered trying the GTVA fighters in that mission, simply because I might become attached and miss them in later missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 10, 2011, 05:21:30 pm
Nyx has 8 guns, 160 missile capacity, faster acceleration than the Kent, only slightly less maneuverable, 650 shields, 350 hitpoints,

Kent has 6 guns, 120 missile capacity, faster than the Nyx, has 380 shields, 275 hitpoints.

So for a slightly slower a ship, you have 30% missiles, 30% more primary firepower, 56% more resilience, a smaller target profile, and the GTVAs far more familiar weaponry.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 10, 2011, 07:28:55 pm
I like the Nyx. If it was a special-issue fighter, I would have liked it even more than I would the Ares.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on January 10, 2011, 07:47:41 pm
Nyx has 8 guns, 160 missile capacity, faster acceleration than the Kent, only slightly less maneuverable, 650 shields, 350 hitpoints,

Kent has 6 guns, 120 missile capacity, faster than the Nyx, has 380 shields, 275 hitpoints.

So for a slightly slower a ship, you have 30% missiles, 30% more primary firepower, 56% more resilience, a smaller target profile, and the GTVAs far more familiar weaponry.

The Nyx cannot reverse trust. The Kent can use that ability to turn on a dime, making it VERY deadly with the right pilot. The Kent has some HUGE advantages for the veteran pilot who can handle these extra features.

It's like comparing a Volkswagen to a Ferrari. Both drive nicely for the average driver when on the highway, keeping to the allowed maximum speed. The driver may even pick the Volkswagen because for normal use, it is known to probably be more durable. But if you ask a race driver to pick one of the two cars to win a speed competition, he'll probably pick the Ferrari for it's sharp turns and higher speed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 10, 2011, 07:51:37 pm
/me stares at QuantumDelta.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on January 10, 2011, 07:56:01 pm
QD will pick a Kent, fly circles around you and be a dick. :P

*pokes QD*.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 10, 2011, 09:09:18 pm
Nah, he'll take a Nyx, pound the ever loving hell out of you, and then do that never-to-be-sufficiently-damned corkscrew to avoid anything you throw at him.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on January 10, 2011, 09:51:31 pm
Also the Kent has 200 afterburner, forward and back, Nyx just 140.

I loved the Nyx, its pretty much an updated erinyes. I personally never got used to the Kent, I'm a heavy over speed kinda player I guess  :p
Shame you were only allowed to pick a GTVA fighter in one mission
ah well, the Izra'il will have missions in R2 anyways :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 10, 2011, 09:56:25 pm
I can't maneuver and reverse thrust at the same time for some reason, so it's essentially meaningless, unless I'm fleeing and shooting missiles behind me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 10, 2011, 10:21:13 pm
It might be your keyboard. Keyboards supplied with computers manufactured by companies like HP limit the number of keys you can press down simultaneously.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2011, 10:22:04 pm
I can maneuver while reverse thrusting but not while reverse afterburning this causes me great distress
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 10, 2011, 10:40:20 pm
I can never tell when I'm stationary or reverse-thrusting because I usually just jam the Reverse Thrust key down to stop. I hardly use reverse afterburn myself, although I still use it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on January 11, 2011, 12:52:18 am
N-Key Roll Over ftw.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on January 11, 2011, 04:48:20 am
Wat??
I used reverse thrusters an awful lot. I used them for everything from evasive maneuvers to hit-and-run missile strikes against way too slow Tev ships. Also, I've never noticed any key-stroke limit problems.
N-Key Roll Over ftw.
I dun get it... :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 11, 2011, 04:52:29 am
Eh, reverse thruster. Never managed to use them properly. Or rather, never found myself in a position where not using them was an issue, aside from the occasional Deimos beam disableness when the corvette is moving forward.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 11, 2011, 07:51:35 am
QD will pick a Kent, fly circles around you and be a dick. :P

*pokes QD*.

Man I've been on the receiving end of a QD flown Perseus I can't imagine what the Kent would be like in his hands. Also, is it just me or do Tev fighters tend to have stronger shields than UEF counterparts?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on January 11, 2011, 08:22:14 am
So for a slightly slower a ship, you have 30% missiles, 30% more primary firepower, 56% more resilience, a smaller target profile, and the GTVAs far more familiar weaponry.
More familiar but crap. Keep your Piranhas, where are my Slammers?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 11, 2011, 09:49:09 am
QD loves the Kent, I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 11, 2011, 12:54:24 pm
Also, is it just me or do Tev fighters tend to have stronger shields than UEF counterparts?

The Nyx and Uriel are about even, but generally yes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 11, 2011, 11:59:34 pm
Federation ships tend to be more versatile and durable. Allied ships are usually faster and better shielded.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 12, 2011, 12:19:37 am
Backwards
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ION3 on January 12, 2011, 04:55:05 am
I'm using the reverse afterburner so much, that i can't fly ships without them anymore.

And on kent vs Nyx:

The Kentauroi has REALLY high acceleration and decelleration if you use the forward and reverse afterburner for that. The Draco also has really high deceleration. Makes it very deadly. The two gun points more on the Nyx don't matter much for me because i can't shoot both gun banks at full power at the same time. So i'm only using the primary bank most of the time, which is the same size for both. And you need to use low power/high range weapons on the Nyx most of the time, because you can't close in to use hight power weapons. I rarely run out of missles on the Kent, so the larger missle capacity of the nyx doesn't matter much for me either. The fact that the Kent has three missle banks compared to the Nyx's 2, on the other hand, does matter to me. The smaller profile of the nyx is offset by the greater speed. Both ships move by about the same amount of ship-lengths per second. And you can evade most missles on the kent without using the burner or countermeasures.

So for me Nyx vs Kent boilds down to: 50% more armor + smaller profile vs 50% more speed + reverse afterburner.


While the gtva arsenal is more diverse, the rapier combines the best attributes of the keyser and prometheus. The GTVA has no weapons that are that good.




What about the Atlanta? Will it get glide mode in r2? Would like to experiment with that.

Another function which i use very often is weapon/missle switch. So i'm often really annoyed with the weapon switch delay. You know, I don't like my weapons to lock up on me in a dogfight.

I don't have problems with Key rollover. I'm using the mouse for turning. (mouse sensitivity really high)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 12, 2011, 11:37:45 am
I did a little table editing that enables glide for every fighter except the Scimitar (just copy/paste really). Anyway you can find it here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70954.msg1403112#msg1403112

If you want to use it together with the post-processing "mod" don't forget to change the secondary list line in it's mod.ini to "secondarylist = blueplanet2-glide,blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612;" with the lighting_test_wih being active mod in the launcher.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ION3 on January 12, 2011, 01:39:13 pm
I just       added glide to the atlanta myself. ^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ION3 on January 14, 2011, 03:03:58 pm
Don't know if anyone already said something like that:

The one biggest disappointment i had with WIH was when the imperieuse jumped in  in Delena Est and i totally anticipated it and just thought: how lame.  Didn't they have any better idea?

The point when it appeared to me that the campaign would end like that was when in one of the briefings it was said, that the imperieuse should still be in delta serpentis. "Should be", not "is".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 14, 2011, 03:16:11 pm
I didn't expect that, but I expected something. Despite that, it was well pulled off, it had foreshadowing, but it didn't give it away. The only way it could have been more mysterious would have been close to Dues Ex Machina. I think they did a fine job, but you might have a point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 14, 2011, 04:10:39 pm
Don't know if anyone already said something like that:

The one biggest disappointment i had with WIH was when the imperieuse jumped in  in Delena Est and i totally anticipated it and just thought: how lame.  Didn't they have any better idea?

The point when it appeared to me that the campaign would end like that was when in one of the briefings it was said, that the imperieuse should still be in delta serpentis. "Should be", not "is".

Personal thing really. I was quite happy seeing the Carthage being pounded and my mouth just dropped when the Imperiuse jumped in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 14, 2011, 04:30:14 pm
The point when it appeared to me that the campaign would end like that was when in one of the briefings it was said, that the imperieuse should still be in delta serpentis. "Should be", not "is".
Perhaps they thought the Imperieuse was following standard procedures.
If you wreck 10 ships and the 10 appear later in Delta Serpentis, then you can safely assume that the 11th ship you wreck will also appear in Delta Serpentis.
Then again, there are no certanties in war. The best laid out plans go to hell once battle begins. I think they call that effect 'fog of war'

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 14, 2011, 04:32:54 pm
Well, I think every other aspect of the trap (capture of the logistics ship, damaging the Hood) was a set up to make victory seem as realistic as possible. . . before destroying the Wargods entirely.

As a GTVA fanboy I was getting frustrated at how smoothly it was going for the clearly inferior UEF, so once the Imp jumped in I had to tell myself "finally!"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 14, 2011, 04:33:19 pm
Don't know if anyone already said something like that:

The one biggest disappointment i had with WIH was when the imperieuse jumped in  in Delena Est and i totally anticipated it and just thought: how lame.  Didn't they have any better idea?

The point when it appeared to me that the campaign would end like that was when in one of the briefings it was said, that the imperieuse should still be in delta serpentis. "Should be", not "is".

Personal thing really. I was quite happy seeing the Carthage being pounded and my mouth just dropped when the Imperiuse jumped in.

Yeah, I enjoyed it. I expected something to go wrong, but not that. Mostly because I was just letting the story wash over me and not really trying to think things through.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 14, 2011, 04:58:13 pm
Even if you do think things through it makes sense, though only if you've read the Conversations - GTVI had compromised the Federation's source inside the GTVA at this point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 14, 2011, 08:20:58 pm
Even if you do think things through it makes sense, though only if you've read the Conversations - GTVI had compromised the Federation's source inside the GTVA at this point.

Yep, I had no problem with the Imperieuse warping in, made sense story wise, and was generally just a kickass scene.

Tevs4eva!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 14, 2011, 08:27:43 pm
This sounded UEF

Quote
"The real unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, without anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future.

But the crimes they hope to prevent in that future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present - they are real."

- Commander Aral Vorkosigan, in Shards Of Honor, by Lois McMaster Bujold

and of course the other side gets its say, but perhaps someone has something more apropos

Quote
"Nobody is stronger, nobody is weaker than someone who came back. There is nothing you can do to such a person because whatever you could do is less than what has already been done to him. We have already paid the price." Elie Wiesel
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 14, 2011, 08:58:47 pm
Quotes that could be pro-GTVA

Quote from: George Washington
To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace.

Quote from: William Sherman
it is only those who have never heard a shot, never heard the shriek and groans of the wounded and lacerated ... that cry aloud for more blood, more vengeance, more desolation.
and
Quote from: William Sherman
You might as well appeal against the thunder-storm as against these terrible hardships of war. They are inevitable, and the only way the people of Atlanta can hope once more to live in peace and quiet at home, is to stop the war, which can only be done by admitting that it began in error and is perpetuated in pride.

Quote from: Sgt. Henry C. Nelson, “To Be Able to Look My Children in the Face,” in Why I Fight, published by the U.S. Army.
Not to “force our ideas on the rest of the world”.... I am fighting for the right of peoples to say how they shall be governed. If they like our form of government, fine. If not, let them have another — but let the choice be theirs, not something handed down to them by a self-styled “Leader” — or a yoke laid on them by an invader....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 15, 2011, 04:21:39 am
Well, I think every other aspect of the trap (capture of the logistics ship, damaging the Hood) was a set up to make victory seem as realistic as possible. . . before destroying the Wargods entirely.

As a GTVA fanboy I was getting frustrated at how smoothly it was going for the clearly inferior UEF, so once the Imp jumped in I had to tell myself "finally!"

Reading conversations I got the impression that Steele's Grand Scheme was as a reaction to the Wargod's successes, not a carefully laid out plan of itself. Bear in mind that Steele had only been in Sol for a short period of time before the Agincourt was stolen, I don't think he would've been able to draw up such an intricate plan in that time.

Also, I can't see the capture of a Logistics ship as being an 'acceptable loss' if it was indeed a plan, it's simply too valuable a piece of hardware.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 15, 2011, 04:31:06 am
It was months:

Quote

The Wargods are dead.

The informant. The source that gave us the Agincourt...he must have been turned. Steele threw the Carthage out as bait, gave us a scent, and waited until we bit hard.

And all the while the Imperieuse was waiting, probably somewhere out in the Kuiper Belt, listening for the signal to strike.

It must have been planned weeks in advance...months, maybe. When we thought she'd returned to Delta Serpentis, she'd really just gone to ground.

The Agincourt may or may not have been on purpose. The UEF thought the Imperieus was in Delta Serpentis after Darkest Hour. That's mission #6 out of 16. That entire time the Imperieus was being held in strategic reserve.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2011, 11:12:07 am
I suspect the Agincourt was not on purpose. The Imperieuse was probably withdrawn as a general-purpose hole card, a contingency.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on January 15, 2011, 11:18:59 am
The Wargods for a logistics ship. I wonder how that ranks on the tactical calculus, taking into account the UEF secret project and all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on January 15, 2011, 12:53:31 pm
The Wargods for a logistics ship. I wonder how that ranks on the tactical calculus, taking into account the UEF secret project and all.
Depends on how much hope the UEF is placing in the secret project
The wargods were probably expendable ('cept for laporte)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on January 15, 2011, 01:01:20 pm
Nothing is really expendable for the UEF if you ask me. At least not militarily.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ION3 on January 15, 2011, 03:41:54 pm
DOES the Vasudan destroyer also have the experimental subspace drive? It seems to have a similar technology.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2011, 03:45:16 pm
As with most reactor-related technology the Vasudans are doing extremely well. Their frontline warships - and the Hatshepsut has been kept up to spec - have some extremely impressive capabilities.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 15, 2011, 03:54:23 pm
I'd hazard a guess that even though their beams (probably) won't be as effective as Terran beams, and fighters and capship armaments might be a little behind their Terran counterparts, Vasudan vessels are actually much more suited to Terran tactical doctrine than Terran ships are themselves.  With their improved reactors and engines, they'll be much more effective jumping into and out of engagements quickly.  This allows for a very dynamic approach to combat, and a much deeper reserve, considering that ships can disengage and re-engage somewhere else very quickly.

Or all of that I just said could be an asspull.  We'll see.

EDIT:  run-on sentence is run-on.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2011, 03:56:41 pm
Vasudan beams have actually generally outperformed their Terran counterparts, with both the BVas and VSlash excelling.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 15, 2011, 04:11:47 pm
Versus BGreen and TerSlash, or versus BBlue and BlueSlash?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2011, 04:12:41 pm
BGreen and TerSlash. Next-generation Vasudan weapons may well have improved concomitantly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Useful Dave on January 17, 2011, 03:23:25 pm
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned prieviously, but it's probably better to mention twice than not at all.

If you kill the hostage in "For the wrong reasons" after the Gef forces have been routed, then the messages played are the same as those that would be if you killed them during the stand-off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 17, 2011, 04:33:50 pm
Here's a good quote from Metro 2033 that has a certain UEF charm to it:

"You reap what you sow, Artyom. Force answers force, war breeds war, and death only brings death. In order to break this vicous cycle one must do more then just act without any thought or doubt" - Khan
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on January 17, 2011, 07:50:00 pm
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned prieviously, but it's probably better to mention twice than not at all.

If you kill the hostage in "For the wrong reasons" after the Gef forces have been routed, then the messages played are the same as those that would be if you killed them during the stand-off.

So after the battle is safe? That's murder right there. Would be fitting if the mission failed (or you at least are warned) if you did that. I'd imagine under normal circumstances shooting someone who surrenders under various conventions would definately cost you your wings. Then again they probably assuming ensigns are cannonfodder at this point and would simply warn her.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 18, 2011, 10:42:44 am
/me updates http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/For_the_Wrong_Reasons#Notes

It's the second-to-last bullet point. Did I get that right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 18, 2011, 12:10:39 pm
So after the battle is safe? That's murder right there. Would be fitting if the mission failed (or you at least are warned) if you did that. I'd imagine under normal circumstances shooting someone who surrenders under various conventions would definately cost you your wings. Then again they probably assuming ensigns are cannonfodder at this point and would simply warn her.
But that Gef pilot never surrendered. The only thing you hear from her are insults.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 18, 2011, 12:14:24 pm
Well try killing the hostage early (as soon as you find her) and see where it gets you.  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on January 19, 2011, 12:57:04 am
right, she is just one of the random Gef pilots who ejected. She has not surrendered either. At least the other Gefs try to call you out if you use her as a hostage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 20, 2011, 01:04:42 pm
Nah, he'll take a Nyx, pound the ever loving hell out of you, and then do that never-to-be-sufficiently-damned corkscrew to avoid anything you throw at him.


I learned that corkscrew on FS1 PXO.......


Sob sob sob.
Withkeyboardandmouse :)

I wish to see more civil traffic in WiH2......wrong topic but I dont mind :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FSW on January 23, 2011, 03:04:50 pm
I finished WiHp1 today. I loved it! Here's a quick review, possibly tainted by a combat high. There will be spoilers for AoA and WiHp1.

Missions
Some of the missions are so grand in scale that the player seems to take a back seat. I don't see this as necessarily a bad thing; it's sometimes the most believable way to show the story. Besides, there is no shortage of missions in which the player does play an integral role.

WiHp1 is full of cool gameplay ideas; like Trebuchet strikes, SSM strikes, calling in specialist strike packages, and even hostage negotiations! I like how damaged warships attempt to jump out rather than let themselves be destroyed in a futile gesture(although, why the Yangtze's fighters don't flee with the Indus is a mystery).

I have no idea how the mission checkpoints work, but they're an excellent idea. They're a little buggy with regards to remembering surviving wingmen and subsystem damage.

The campaign badly needs in-mission voice-acting (let's make it happen!) (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71181.0); I often have to check the comms log after battle.

Story
So far, WiH seems quite divorced from AoA, but I get the sense that the events of both are building up to intertwine. Some of the out-of-mission interactions between Laporte, Simms, and the other Wargods are a bit cheesy, but it works to humanise the wingmen to some degree, and it adds some flavour and depth to the universe. The Project Nagari subplot moves slowly; I expect that it will become more important later, but at this stage it could have done with some more depth.

I felt that the 'real' story is the epic game of solar chess between the Admirals. Between his manipulation of the Vasudans and the trap for the Wargods, Steele has been built up into quite the tricky adversary. It feels, at times, that the player's nation is fighting an unstoppable foe; there are glimmers of hope, and times when that hope is snatched away (the mission with the Vasudan logistics ship comes to mind). It's good storytelling.

Blue Planet
The best part about Blue Planet is that the universe is so deep; the creators clearly care about the world they are crafting. For example, the they haven't randomly added new ships to existing FS2 assets; they've thought about the design and strategic philosophies of the UEF and GTA fleets. Every ship has a role to fulfill within its fleet, and a backstory to its design (also, they're beautiful). Fleets now use novel tactics and weapon systems, particularly using AWACS to great effect. It all comes together to feel like a believable evolution from the FS2 era.

The tech room entries add a lot of flavour to the universe (particularly the politics of the GTVA and UEF), and go some way towards addressing one of my few gripes about BP:AoA: the GTVA's motive for invading Sol, and the rationale behind immediately attacking Renjian. I'd like to see some entries on the new GTVA ships, written from a UEF perspective.

The music, as with AoA, is excellent! It sets the tone perfectly, and is never intrusive.

Multiplayer
It's obviously not finished, but so far it can be a lot of fun.

I'm really looking forward to the next installment; and, of course, the voice-acted version.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 23, 2011, 04:11:42 pm
Yay! I am glad you liked it.

(although, why the Yangtze's fighters don't flee with the Indus is a mystery).

There's a message (easy to miss, until VA'd) from Karen in which she and Olefumi declare their intent to stay with their beloved ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 24, 2011, 10:36:57 am
Honour Before Reason. Bless them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 24, 2011, 11:59:56 am
Bearing in mind that the fighters were relying on Indus to jump them out: she probably wouldn't have had room for Yanghtze's complement. Besides, it isn't as if Indus was out of harms way afterwards. Crash jump = bad me thinks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on January 24, 2011, 02:00:31 pm
I don't think there was anything that thought out behind their decision. I mean Levi got blown up while retreating (I had to open the message log to see this) and I'd assume some other Indus Wargods didn't make it through either so there should have been room for extra fighters on the Indus.

As said above I think it was more 'honor before reason' than anything.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ZeroCooL on January 24, 2011, 04:07:30 pm
WIH is an excellent campaign is more like a FS3 I've played and say I've played many campaigns

I sometimes think that the community has to continue from the point that you will leave BP when done to so unify argument and continue the story into the 24 century and not stuck in the post capella or wear the unknowns that left FS1 and FS2

recommend you leave mysteries and expand the universe of FS to generate new arguments and thus create more campaigns that history does not die out in a lot of parallel lines
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 24, 2011, 06:09:02 pm
I don't think there was anything that thought out behind their decision. I mean Levi got blown up while retreating (I had to open the message log to see this) and I'd assume some other Indus Wargods didn't make it through either so there should have been room for extra fighters on the Indus.

As said above I think it was more 'honor before reason' than anything.

Yeah just being pedantic there, they knew the end was near and went down guns blazing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 25, 2011, 11:58:02 am
It's noble, as I've mentioned on the Inferno board, but it defies reason and logic.

Still, it was noble.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 25, 2011, 11:59:57 am
It's noble, as I've mentioned on the Inferno board, but it defies reason and logic.

Still, it was noble.

No on the Inferno board you said the Yangtze and the Yangtze didn't exactly have many other options.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 25, 2011, 12:30:46 pm
/me ponders.

...oh yeah, it lost engine power and couldn't jump. I forgot. :warp:

It's not really honour before reason anymore. It's just a last stand, and a very bold one at that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on January 27, 2011, 10:54:58 pm
It is just they realize they can't run, so rather then die as cowards, they want to deal as much damage and take down as many enemies as they can with them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on January 27, 2011, 11:55:29 pm
They didn't have to die.
Surrender's an option, but they'd rather die that do that I guess.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 28, 2011, 04:42:19 am
The fighters would have been able to get away, but they chose to stay with their grounded mothership instead.
With the losses the Indus would have had enough room in their hangar for all surviving fighters. And even if it didn't the wargod's fighters still have jumpdrives as you can see in the mission right before Delenda Est. But since the Indus was crash-jumping they couldn't make sure everyone would come out at the same spot if they didn't land.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on January 28, 2011, 05:23:51 am
For me, those fighters wanting to die with the Yangtze, was symbolic for how many just gave up hope, making one last stand. It really added to that disappointment the pilots must have felt.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on January 28, 2011, 07:57:43 am
Well I'm sure, despite the sense of defeat, they must have had some consolation in the fact that they would be going down fighting. That's what I really liked about it, and what I found inspiring.

Rather than interpreting it as loss of hope, I thought of it more as the opposite (though in a slightly different context). Those tev bastards had them right there, and rather than surrendering for real and thinking the battle was lost, they held their fighting spirit right until the bloody end and died as heroes - for their brothers and sisters in arms.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 28, 2011, 03:52:13 pm
Not actually a blue planet theme, but if I disable the engines of a capital ship...let's say a Deimos...why the heck has it still full speed while two out of three engine sections are disabled?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 28, 2011, 03:55:15 pm
Game mechanics. The engine doesn't simulate the fact that partially disabling a ship will make it slower. It's either fully disabled, or not disabled.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 28, 2011, 04:11:29 pm
Not actually true! Damage to an engine subsystem will slow a capship, apparently as far back as retail.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 28, 2011, 04:14:30 pm
/me agrees with Battuta on the matter.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 28, 2011, 04:25:38 pm
I've tested and actually toota is right, at least in FSO. Haven't tested with retail exes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 28, 2011, 05:43:58 pm
IIRC it's been that way since FS1
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on January 28, 2011, 08:30:00 pm
A ship with multiple engine subsystems will slow down too if you destroy one or two subsystems
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on January 28, 2011, 08:58:14 pm
A ship with multiple engine subsystems will slow down too if you destroy one or two subsystems
However, IIRC, they will still render as all being enabled until they are all disabled (ie. the engines will still glow). Which can be a little confusing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on January 28, 2011, 09:04:36 pm
Um no, I don't believe they do.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on January 28, 2011, 09:13:02 pm
I'm semi-completely sure the thrusters on a destroyed engine subsystem shut down when destroyed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on January 28, 2011, 09:22:15 pm
They do if they're linked properly in the POF.
For some fighters they aren't.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 28, 2011, 09:28:33 pm
I'm semi-completely sure the thrusters on a destroyed engine subsystem shut down when destroyed.

If they do, it's an SCP addition.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on January 28, 2011, 10:09:07 pm
Frikking Trinity and it's inexplicable engine glow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 30, 2011, 12:37:47 am
Doesn't the Colossus have some engine subsystems that are NOT coded as engine subsystems?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on January 30, 2011, 01:44:04 am
I've noticed that. Looking at the table, it turns out that "enginelarge01", "enginelarge02" and "enginelarge03" are not destructible, either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on January 30, 2011, 09:37:22 am
got a question:

Is there a particular reason for the UEF's logo to have 5 starts under the eagle?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 30, 2011, 09:49:23 am
Maybe they represent something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 30, 2011, 09:54:32 am
go to the next page
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 30, 2011, 09:56:08 am
Each star represents a virtue embodied by the Ubuntu Party as a constant reminder for who the Navy is fighting for and protecting.

Ren - Humanity/benevolence

Yi - Honesty, uprightedness

Zhi - Knowledge

Xin - Faithfulness and integrity

Li - correct behaviour, politeness and manners.
 
Only through these five virtues will the human race be saved through Confuc Ubuntu.

EDIT: Plus the fact that Steve-O's original eagle logo had five stars in it. But this works just as well!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 30, 2011, 10:59:35 am
I find it a little strange that unity isn't one of these five virtues, but perhaps it can only be achieved through a combination of the five mentioned above, so it may be justified.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 30, 2011, 11:45:11 am
If you follow those five, unity comes pretty much by itself. Besides the UEF doesn't sound like a fully united state, more like something like a very close alliance of the three member states (Earth, Mars and the Jovians). At least it sounds that way to me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on January 30, 2011, 12:56:47 pm
thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on January 30, 2011, 02:34:59 pm
I always assumed it represented the power of Earth, Wind, Water, Fire and Heart since they were combined underneath a blue flying creature and the planet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on January 30, 2011, 02:43:06 pm
I have really rotten luck. Just got hit by the Carthage's snipe at the UEF AWACS in Delenda Est.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 30, 2011, 05:06:42 pm
Ryuseken: That's for the Gaian Effort's logo :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on January 30, 2011, 09:56:41 pm
Not big on Tao or Buddha here are we? ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on January 31, 2011, 03:15:55 am
The Gaian Effort? nah, they are more like a violent version of Green Peace than any religious group.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 31, 2011, 04:29:06 am
The Gaian Effort was never a particularly dangerous or long-lasting organisation, so their rise to prominence over the past eighteen months has been of great interest to political analysts in the Federation. Origins of this mysterious group can be traced back to a fundamentalist left-wing fringe group on Mars that stood for political office in 2295. Mars at that point was undergoing a huge industrial revolution, mostly fuelled by the discovery of subspace and the ease that material could now be transported across planets. The Socialist Party for a Green Mars, as they were known back then, were unhappy with the mostly Earth corporations-financed infrastructure that was being built at a great pace in Mars City. Supporting a population of only 50 million at the time, a huge migrant explosion and increase in population served to destabilise the fragile marsforming and landscaping projects that were running at the time.

The majority of Mars' population were weary of their backwater status, despite being part of the community of Core Planets in the solar system. The Jovians and Saturnians at least had reason to live in squalour: Martians should not be reduced to the same level. They welcomed the modernisation of their culture with open arms, and the resentful SPGM was thrown even further into the fringes.

In 2315, the capital tower for TerraCorp in Geneva, Switzerland was bombed, and simultaneous explosions were recorded at other TCorp assets around the system. The terrorist group known as the Spirit of Gaia claimed responsibility for the attack, citing recent environmentally unsustainable mining practices on Mars, Europa and Titan to fuel a growing GTA economy as reasons for the attack. TerraCorp never fully recovered from the attack, and was eventually bought up by a competitor.

The charismatic leader of the Spirit of Gaia, Reverend Iain McDuff, had hammered into the heads of his followers a new, terrifying philosophy, bringing into fruition the seeds of the Cult of the Planet which had been planted earlier by the Socialist Party for a Green Mars. The CP drew its inspiration from five prophets living in Earth at the end of the 20th Century. The period was marked by rapid decline in environmental integrity, with corporate greed and human indifference to the environment being rife. Their world was in peril: Gaia, the Spirit of the Earth, could no longer stand the terrible destruction plaguing the planet.

Five prophets were chosen from five different places around the globe: Africa, North America, Europe, Asia and South America. In each of them, Gaia embued one of five shards of the planet's essence. Only by working in harmony together in communication with Gaia, and by combining their individual power into one goal could they prevail against Gaia's enemies. Together, they were known as the Listeners of Gaia, or the Planet Ears, as they were the only ones who were known to hear the voice of their planet.

Though no official records of the Planet Ears' existence has been known to exist, McDuff was said to be in possession several ancient audio-visual records outlining their deeds and heroics in service of Gaia. These 20th Century artifacts continue to serve as inspiration to the terrorist organisation to this day.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on January 31, 2011, 04:34:38 am
Not big on Tao or Buddha here are we? ;)
Tao would not fit Ubuntu too well I think. Maybe for the Gaian effort? or not...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 31, 2011, 05:16:03 am
Not big on Tao or Buddha here are we? ;)

Sure we are...that virtues thing was just a 2 minute google search. To be honest, it's never come up until now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 31, 2011, 06:50:46 am
It is worth noting that Laozi is one of the central figures of Taoism, so if the Federation has a fighter designated Lao Tze... ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on January 31, 2011, 09:33:15 am
Oh gods, I thought Battuta was just joking about the Planet Ears and all that. FFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU-
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 31, 2011, 09:36:36 am
I don't think you need to take them as part of our ultra srs grittydark canon. They exist with Mr. Cuddles.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 31, 2011, 10:55:00 am
Planet ears?

Planteers?

Darius, you are my hero.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 31, 2011, 03:35:01 pm
Planet ears?

Planteers?

Darius, you are my hero.

qft
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nuclear1 on February 05, 2011, 04:41:32 pm
Alright, just finished WiH, and have been ordered to report findings here:
Spoiler:
Long story short, I've been playing campaigns since Derelict was released, and I think this is easily my favorite to this point. 
Highlights:
* Great character development.  Especially the written parts between missions.  Only other time I've been upset over a character's death before was in Homesick. 
* Fantastic use of new FRED features.  Liked being able to reload at checkpoints, and it felt pretty cool calling in strike packages.  The interactive conversation was Simms was a neat little bit too.
* Missions were varied enough to be entertaining, but never so desperate for variety that they bordered on the ridiculous.

Disappointments:

* It ended.

Well done guys.  :yes:  Can't wait for the end!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 06, 2011, 04:16:51 am
Disappointments:

* It ended.
I'm pretty sure this can be written without any spoiler tags

Actually it's more like it's on pause, since the story will continue  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gloc on February 06, 2011, 12:12:25 pm
After having had it sitting on my hard drive since release, I finally sat down and played through WiH this week. It was fan-freaking-tastic. Thanks, guys. I eagerly await the next release. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 06, 2011, 12:21:39 pm
After having had it sitting on my hard drive since release, I finally sat down and played through WiH this week. It was fan-freaking-tastic. Thanks, guys. I eagerly await the next release. :)

Thank you for playing! We're pushing along and hope to have R2 ready in record* time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Archaic on February 07, 2011, 10:43:43 am
define record time.

you could mean the longest time between releases! :shaking:

also
Spoiler:
dalenda est made me feel guilty as i bravely turned my tail and fled

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on February 07, 2011, 11:22:47 am
So I was randomly wondering,
In the BPverse, the GTVA colonies have about the same industrial infastructure combined as Sol.
What about the Vasudans? We know they recovered significantly faster than the GTVA did post Capella. But how much industrial infastructure did they lose when Vasuda prime got glassed?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 07, 2011, 11:27:52 am
On the one hand, obviously a fair bit. On the other hand, since Vasuda Prime was such a ****hole, they were great at being IN SPACE. Witness the fact that even post-Vasudapocalypse, the orbital shipyards in Vasuda Prime were able to roll out 6000 Bakhas!

All in all the Vasudans are doing pretty well and are probably an industrial and scientific power on par with the Federation. However, like all factions in BP they have their own weaknesses, in particular some truly byzantine internal politics. Say what you will about the Terran half of the GTVA's failings socially or economically, its military will do its job and is highly responsive to political will*, whereas the Vasudan fleet is...well, while the Medjai are fiercely loyal to the Emperor, there's a lot of weird stuff going on in the rank and file fleet battlegroups. As far back as FS2, you can see that people like Admiral Ahmose were liable to play things a little looser than Terran admirals not named Bosch, and that situation has just gotten worse. (Who was Captain Apries of the Pesedjet anyway?)

While it might seem like the military and economic might of the Vasudans seriously outstrips that of their Galactic Terran brethren, the great weakness of the Vasudan people has always been their tendency to make everything incredibly complicated.

*barring transdimensional abduction by meddling aliens
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on February 07, 2011, 02:12:29 pm
(Who was Captain Apries of the Pesedjet anyway?)
Wait, he was a member of the Medjai wasn't he? Why wouldn't he be loyal to the emperor?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 07, 2011, 02:15:59 pm
For all we know he's utterly loyal! But he is one of the few viable suspects for what happened in that mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 07, 2011, 05:13:41 pm
I liked the coincident, that Apries ship had a backup generator so it could jump out just when the GEF attacked...lucky vasudans^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on February 07, 2011, 05:17:05 pm
Well all Hatshepsuts have a flash reactor for that sort of thing, apparently. Which is cool.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 07, 2011, 05:35:25 pm
Well, then I missed that point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 07, 2011, 05:39:58 pm
It's never actually laid out ahead of time, since there's no way the characters would reasonably know, but in our fluff the Vasudans (who even in FS2 were good at reactors) are now really good at reactors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on February 07, 2011, 05:41:16 pm
Well, then I missed that point.
The Vasudans have always been better at building reactors than the Terrans. This will probably become important when the Vasudans reappear in WiH part 2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 07, 2011, 06:53:53 pm
Hm...well, if that's true...shouldn't BP-vasudan reactors be able to support that fancy ultra AAA?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 08, 2011, 12:53:56 am
Well, terrans reactor do already. It's just that they can't have both the Ultra and an onboard targetting system for it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on February 08, 2011, 01:30:36 am
That's something I don't understand.  How can you have power enough for a flashy, beamy thing that is no doubt terribly inefficient, but not enough for a computer that can monitor 30 targets at once?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on February 08, 2011, 03:15:44 am
Future suck.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on February 08, 2011, 05:54:43 am
That's something I don't understand.  How can you have power enough for a flashy, beamy thing that is no doubt terribly inefficient, but not enough for a computer that can monitor 30 targets at once?
Balance. :nervous: :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 08, 2011, 08:20:44 am
There were actually a lot more ultraAAAs in WiH R1 before release but it was a...well, balance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 08, 2011, 09:09:29 am
Getting hit with a TAG-B in Post Meridian is something of a death sentence unless you've already disarmed the Juarez.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on February 08, 2011, 09:12:11 am
I've been hit by TAG-Bs in that mission before, but only when I'm escorting the Indus and Churchill.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 08, 2011, 10:58:38 am
That's something I don't understand.  How can you have power enough for a flashy, beamy thing that is no doubt terribly inefficient, but not enough for a computer that can monitor 30 targets at once?
Here are some justifications I just came up for what is apperently a balancing issue:
Energy isn't the only concern. Maybe the UAAA is just too big to have enough room for the targeting computers as well.
Or they cause interference with the usual computer systems because of it's high energy throughput and thus needs very special computers, that are (apart from their resistance to the interference of course) inferiour.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 08, 2011, 11:11:21 am
Don't forget the heat issues, always heat
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 08, 2011, 12:35:02 pm
Venting heat into open space should solve that shouldn't it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on February 08, 2011, 12:38:36 pm
...and how exactly does one "vent" heat into open space? :P

Sure, space is "cold", but space is a vacuum, the only way you can lose heat to it is through radiative heat loss, a la black body radiation, which is slooooooow.

Or flushing coolant I guess, but that's limited, and I'm not even sure if that works.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 08, 2011, 12:46:56 pm
Venting heat into open space should solve that shouldn't it?

You can't; there is nothing in space to serve as a thermally conductive medium, therefore the only venting possible is via radiation, which is incredibly slow. Overheating is thus a huge problem for spacecraft.

The solution is to use an active cooling system and then vent or recirculate the coolant.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on February 08, 2011, 01:48:02 pm
The SSV Normandy has a very nice cooling system.
It spews small liquid particles out of its nose ( :D ) that go all along the hull and harvests them at the rear to transport them to the nose again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 08, 2011, 05:10:19 pm
Even there it is too slow for prolonged use in combat, which contributes to space battles in Mass Effect being rather short (that and how quickly ships get blown up....).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Asteroth on February 08, 2011, 05:15:30 pm
The SSV Normandy has a very nice cooling system.
It spews small liquid particles out of its nose ( :D ) that go all along the hull and harvests them at the rear to transport them to the nose again.
I'm not quite understanding this. If you're not actually getting rid of the coolant and just recirculating how does that solve the problem? The point is to transfer the heat to the coolant and then throw it out into space, taking back in won't help, it will still be hot and will take an exorbitant amount of time before it cools.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 08, 2011, 05:23:44 pm
It's a surface area vs mass thing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on February 08, 2011, 07:11:36 pm
The idea is to eject the coolant in a very fine mist, so there is much more surface area.  The coolant radiates heat as it travels from the front of the ship to the back, where it is recollected so it can be used again.  You don't want to just eject in off into space because that would require ridiculous amounts of coolant.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on February 08, 2011, 07:35:28 pm
Exactly how do you prevent vapours from, well, expanding due to zero external pressure, so you can collect it again? O_o
You must have some massive vapour collectors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 08, 2011, 07:44:26 pm
This thread is the #2 google hit for "ssv normandy cooling system"  :blah:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on February 08, 2011, 08:06:05 pm
Does that mean we'll get confused Mass Effect fans here?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 09, 2011, 04:42:56 am
Exactly how do you prevent vapours from, well, expanding due to zero external pressure, so you can collect it again? O_o
You must have some massive vapour collectors.
Mass Effect fields. Among other things, they can be used to create shields (called kinetic barriers) and artificial gravity.

Since FS2 ships use artificial gravity, they could mimic a similar effect with their gravity generation technology I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on February 09, 2011, 07:35:23 am
About heat, why not do the Shivan thing and shove it into subspace? Unless that's beyond the GTVA level of technology
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 09, 2011, 12:36:51 pm
About heat, why not do the Shivan thing and shove it into subspace? Unless that's beyond the GTVA level of technology
Quote from: BP Tech Database
Alliance analysts have no explanation for this weapons system. The Sathanas' main beam cannons discharge kilotons of magnetically confined plasma at .9998 lightspeed. They are capable of continuous fire without overheating. It is unclear where the heat goes, leading GTI analysts to the unsettling conclusion that these weapons are not compatible with thermodynamics as we understand it. It is possible that waste heat is somehow shunted into subspace, or that the Shivans use quantum sleight-of-hand to process the heat out of local space. No allied warship can survive engagement with one of these weapons. Current GTVA tactical doctrine calls for concentrated bomber strikes to destroy these weapons before they can be brought to bear on allied capital ships.

Sounds a little beyond them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 09, 2011, 12:46:47 pm
If somebody actually calculates the yield implied by that techroom description I bet it would blow up star systems or something  :nervous:

freespace physics
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on February 09, 2011, 01:24:12 pm
Wouldn't a captive singularity make for a pretty decent heat sink?  Maybe that's that the Shivans do?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 09, 2011, 01:34:47 pm
Well...it's an interesting notion and I couldn't immediately reject it, but I believe a black hole with a mass of 'merely' 10^11 kilograms will radiate blackbody emissions at something like 10000000000000 degrees, and probably evaporate right quick.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Doko on February 09, 2011, 01:57:22 pm
What kind of timeframe can we expect for R2 at this point?

Days/months/years? I have no idea what kind of time it takes to complete a mod of this magnitude and there's an overwhelming amount of posts in these boards. (just joined a couple of days ago)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 09, 2011, 02:01:52 pm
If somebody actually calculates the yield implied by that techroom description I bet it would blow up star systems or something  :nervous:

freespace physics
1 short ton at 99.98% light speed is "only" 973.96 Megatons of TNT
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 09, 2011, 02:11:34 pm
What kind of timeframe can we expect for R2 at this point?

Days/months/years? I have no idea what kind of time it takes to complete a mod of this magnitude and there's an overwhelming amount of posts in these boards. (just joined a couple of days ago)

Well, R1 was in development for 18 months, which was good time all in all. That timespan included a lot of hurfing and blurfing about that we won't have to do on R2, and most of the team didn't even show up until towards the end. We also had to help identify and fix a few SCP bugs.

On the other hand, R2 is significantly more complex than R1 in terms of its missions. It's been about 5-6 months since R1 came out and we're closing in on 1/3rd 'done' with R2 mission-wise. So I'll tentatively say 12 months to go.

When we push Act 3 to beta we'll try to do a veiled preview. We're very happy to have a lot of deep, multi-angled gameplay, but the big challenge we're facing right now is that we have to explain it all to players in a way that's transparent and fun.

One thing I can say is that you're not likely to have any less reading in R2, but more of it will (hopefully) be optional or set up in a way that you can easily breeze by it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 10, 2011, 03:46:49 pm
I would kill for a screenshot...

SRy for double posting...
but who was the godfather for the GTD Raynor?^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 10, 2011, 03:52:08 pm
Stratcomm, Lt.Narol, CODEDOG ND and mikhael.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 10, 2011, 04:50:14 pm
Ah...I think I...asked the question the wrong way...
The GTVA ships classes all have mythical and other sources for their names...Hecate,Orion, Deimos, Titan, Diomedes etc...
but Raynor? Marshall James Eugene Raynor?^^

Next question...how "big" are gauss cannons and massdrivers?
To big to be mounted on the turrets of a Raynor or Titan?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 10, 2011, 04:55:35 pm
The Raynor's name was never altered from that of the original design (by the above chaps), probably in part as a tribute to their work getting the model worked up and available to the community. Why they selected that name I don't know. I'm not sure it's ever uttered in voiced dialogue which would make it reasonably simple to change to the Atreus-class if we ever felt so inclined.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on February 10, 2011, 04:56:38 pm
It was named Raynor because it looks very similar to his Vulture bike.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on February 10, 2011, 05:02:06 pm
Which he doesn't ride any more....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on February 10, 2011, 05:08:55 pm
Which he doesn't ride any more....
No, but you have to remember that the Raynor was made way before SC2 was released, and the retail-quality model even before that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on February 10, 2011, 05:28:09 pm
I sort of got used to Raynor, but it does not fit in the list now that I know what it's named after.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 10, 2011, 05:50:27 pm
All of the Titan class ships we've seen have been named after British vessels. The Raynor isn't the only one with naming differences.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on February 10, 2011, 05:59:56 pm
Not exactly. Even in FreeSpace 1 and FreeSpace 2 have Terran ships had mythological names for its type (prominently Greek) but used different geographical names for each individual ship, such as Soyokaze, Intrepid, Eisenhower, Carthage, Repulse (which is also the name of at least one British naval ship), and Aquitaine. In fact, most ship names were probably not Greek.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on February 10, 2011, 06:33:27 pm
All of the Titan class ships we've seen have been named after British vessels. The Raynor isn't the only one with naming differences.

Cannot be compared, I don't think there's much which can change that. Titan's were mythical beings. Raynor, if called after the Starcraft character is an entirely different source. But it sticks to the player by now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on February 10, 2011, 08:12:21 pm
Well, there might have been a successful commander/president or other famous person who was named Raynor sometime during FS history, and they named the class after them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Asteroth on February 10, 2011, 10:45:54 pm
I thought it was a charming reference, but I think they earned the right to name it what they wanted rather than conforming to the naming conventions/
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on February 10, 2011, 11:35:01 pm
Or maybe Starcraft is just that big in the future?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on February 10, 2011, 11:37:16 pm
Or maybe Starcraft is just that big in the future?
Unless Koreans are a dominant race in the future, I doubt that
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on February 11, 2011, 03:13:11 am
Actually not all are from greek mythology. The Silent Threat ships for instance, many are named after Norse mythology instead.

The Raynor isn't the only one though, there is also the Kulas fighter.

I can also see the naming conventions in UEF ships, the first fleet ships are named after famous leaders, the second fleet ships are named after rivers, I am not sure about the third.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on February 11, 2011, 02:04:26 pm
Interestingly, a couple Terran destroyers in FS2 were named after random French provinces, like Aquitaine, Alsace, Normandy and Corsica.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 11, 2011, 02:18:52 pm
I was simply going for the class name.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on February 11, 2011, 04:18:21 pm
I liked the reference, though that might be because there was a period in time when i was 10 where I only played Freespace, Starcraft and Rogue Squadron. Ahhhhhh Good times. :P
Title: Re: What do you want in the rest of War in Heaven?
Post by: DeadNova on March 04, 2011, 05:11:40 pm
New user, first post.

Around 2 weeks ago my video card died and I'm forced to use an older PC.  Since this is a fairly weak and old PC I started to search for older games and found one of my old favorites FS  :)

Back when I first played it there was only FS1. Now I played FS2. ST, ST:R and a couple of user made campaigns.

There are some campaigns that are actually way better then the original ones, like Derelict, BP:AoA and I only played 2 missions so far in WiH, but I'm already amazed. No idea how you guys do it, but whatever you do keep it up.

The best part I liked about the 3 prev mentioned campaign besides the new models, plot and everything is the voice acting. They just take it to a whole new level and even though it's not easy to "move me" some of the dialogs and monologs managed to do so.

My current video card is really ancient and the game slows down too often for my taste, but I still can't get up from the PC and will definitely replay them when I get a better PC.

Now I know that what I said so far has no connection what so ever with this thread, but I had no idea where to write this and I just want to congratulate and thank you guys for the job you did.

What I would like to see in the next part and in part 1 is voice acting ^^ especially the "recommendation" in the debriefing and the in-game chatter. It's really hard to concentrate on killing enemy ships and avoiding fire when you have to read the text. 

It may have been said before and I presume it was, but I'm so overwhelmed with this campaign that I could hardly exit the game to write this. I finished AoA in 1 night and was looking for the next part. When I saw WiH I was "hell yeah!!!" even without voice acting. Can't wait or the next part and for some voice acting  :D :D :D

And sorry again for posting in the wrong thread, but I wasn't able find an "OMG you guys are the best" thread  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 04, 2011, 05:22:08 pm
Thank you! Glad you enjoyed it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 04, 2011, 06:46:43 pm
Or maybe Starcraft is just that big in the future?
Unless Koreans are a dominant race in the future, I doubt that

You don't know that won't happen. Based on GTA rocketry I'd hazard North Korea ended up as mankind's dominant super power.

Oh and speaking of voice acting my one concern is the voices I've had for characters in my head will all be null once the 'real' voices come out. I can't for the life of me think why but I always visualised Laporte as being black and having like a South African accent or there enough. I doubt we have a lot of female south african FS players. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 04, 2011, 06:51:39 pm
Unfortunately not. Laporte's ethnicity is also somewhat ambiguous (though FSOSara's renders have her rather white, she was definitely imagined as all sorts of looks).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on March 04, 2011, 07:12:17 pm
The name sounds French to me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on March 04, 2011, 07:15:13 pm
I'm fairly sure it's French, seems to be a combination of La Porte, a French surname.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: DeadNova on March 04, 2011, 07:17:50 pm
Laporte maybe, Noemi = Hungaian. It only needs é instead of e :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 04, 2011, 07:27:29 pm
Unfortunately not. Laporte's ethnicity is also somewhat ambiguous (though FSOSara's renders have her rather white, she was definitely imagined as all sorts of looks).

I'll probably just make a female pilot images if I ever get to it of various races. I want to spend more time for finishing avi-heads first, that came to a bit of a stand-still unintentionally. Then the player can use their own imagination on what LaPorte looks like, with image 1 being the 'canonically agreed' version or such.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on March 04, 2011, 07:45:25 pm
La porte= the door?^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JCDNWarrior on March 04, 2011, 08:23:16 pm
La porte= the door?^^

The door to what, I wonder..
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 04, 2011, 08:23:35 pm
I'm fairly sure it's French, seems to be a combination of La Porte, a French surname.

Not only is it silly to attempt to figure out the nationality of a name several centuries from now, given the inevitable linguistic and cultural drift, but there is significant French influence in many areas of Africa - thus the phrase 'Francophone nations'.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on March 04, 2011, 08:35:26 pm
An even sillier attempt than looking at surnames to derive an ethnicity is looking at the first name, especially if it's not an uncommon one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 04, 2011, 10:09:50 pm
I imagine the entire UEF as white with Australian accents.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 04, 2011, 10:14:02 pm
Eh mate? What'd you say about the barbie?!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: blowfish on March 05, 2011, 01:24:34 am
Being so far in the future, it's quite possible that cultures have mixed sufficiently that you could imagine nearly any combination of names/accent/physical appearance and have it be reasonable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 05, 2011, 01:27:13 am
300-400 years is close enough that I would expect to see quite a bit of distinctiveness still.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 05, 2011, 04:21:56 am
Not in countries like the US, where you get ethnic backgrounds literally from all around the world.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on March 05, 2011, 04:23:40 am
Nor most of western europe or the better areas of asia.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on March 05, 2011, 06:21:56 am
Cultural diversity to me is a lot more interesting a racial/genetic diversity - an opinion formed by growing up ethnically diverse crowd in different areas, it's interesting to see what everyone 'picks'
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 05, 2011, 06:34:04 am
Also, off-world colonies developing their own cultures.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 05, 2011, 07:23:50 am
Yeah, Martians rule.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 05, 2011, 05:30:46 pm
300-400 years is close enough that I would expect to see quite a bit of distinctiveness still.

I already know full-blooded Japanese with the last name "McKinney".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on March 05, 2011, 05:34:47 pm
I know Chinese with the last name "Lee". :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 05, 2011, 08:23:42 pm
That's... a pretty normal sounding Chinese last name.
Point is, in 300~400 years it would be near impossible to tell people of different ethnic origins apart by last name only.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on March 05, 2011, 08:55:36 pm
That's... a pretty normal sounding Chinese last name.
Point is, in 300~400 years it would be near impossible to tell people of different ethnic origins apart by last name only.
That was a joke. :nono:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 06, 2011, 08:54:42 am
It's also interesting what 300 years of different gravity and conditions do to a person. They might be more slim or otherwise. I can imagine having to addapt to radically different living conditions will result into HUGE social changes. We've seen only the tip of the iceberg so far of that I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 06, 2011, 10:57:49 am
They might have increased the gravity artificially.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 09, 2011, 06:52:55 am
It's also interesting what 300 years of different gravity and conditions do to a person. They might be more slim or otherwise. I can imagine having to addapt to radically different living conditions will result into HUGE social changes. We've seen only the tip of the iceberg so far of that I think.

A lack of gravity may make them physically weaker, as it does to most astronauts in space.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 09, 2011, 07:21:49 am
Well at least the pilots must have kept fit. Believe me, even at 4g's, sustaining a conversation is a hard ask for extended periods, let alone tangling at 9g+ that fighter pilots pull.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on March 09, 2011, 10:03:26 am
You mean a chinese whose name don't sound chinese and can't speak mandarin? that's me
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 09, 2011, 10:53:05 pm
Well at least the pilots must have kept fit. Believe me, even at 4g's, sustaining a conversation is a hard ask for extended periods, let alone tangling at 9g+ that fighter pilots pull.

FS fighters appear to operate at relatively gentle acceleration regimes...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 10, 2011, 09:35:19 am
Stargate cheated by throwing in the whole inertia inhibitors, or whatever, which nullified the amount of G's a pilot pulled in space. Since I assume people walk onboard Freespace ships instead of floating around, thus giving evidence to technology for artificial gravity etc, such may be possible entirely for fightercraft as an opposite, reducing the amount of G's a pilot suffers from. Sci-fi flavour.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 10, 2011, 09:39:50 am
There's actually no clear evidence of artificial gravity in Freespace.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 10, 2011, 09:45:20 am
There's actually no clear evidence of artificial gravity in Freespace.

But what about the dude walking around in the FS2 mainhall?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 10, 2011, 09:55:34 am
And Bosch standing on his bridge. Neither are any of the command figures strapped in and do many walk around the main hall unaided (not counting the marine armour).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 10, 2011, 10:53:49 am
Magnet shoes.
Nuff said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 10, 2011, 12:16:19 pm
There's actually no clear evidence of artificial gravity in Freespace.

But what about the dude walking around in the FS2 mainhall?

and bosch's monologues.
and the operator in fs1.
and the briefing guy room in fs1.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 10, 2011, 07:22:06 pm
We so need a flava article on artificial gravity in capital ships and stations. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 11, 2011, 04:14:31 am
Magnet shoes.
Nuff said.

Would actually change the way you walk significantly in a way not seen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 11, 2011, 05:13:57 am
Magnet shoes.
Nuff said.
And what about the scene where Bosch sits? Does he have magnets in his backpockets too?  :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 11, 2011, 05:42:01 am
As long as he has magnets on his shoes, he can rest on a chair pretty easily. I don't see why he would need anything else.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on March 11, 2011, 06:48:02 am
There's a preponderance of evidence that the GTVA have artificial gravity - what's been mentioned, as well as stuff like hair not flowing around freely (the operator at riviera in particular) and the fact that the Vasudan in the mainhall bottom left isn;t strapped in to anything (and Vasudans don't even wear shoes).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 11, 2011, 07:36:58 am
/me is reminded of the Aquitaine's mainhall.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 11, 2011, 09:50:25 am
Besides we know how big are magnetic boots, at least the combat variation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 11, 2011, 10:18:23 am
That was fun. :p

Anyway, what about artificial gravity in fighters?

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 11, 2011, 10:57:37 am
Why should they add such a thing, the fighter pilot already deals with a lot of G-pull
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 11, 2011, 11:03:20 am
Well presumably if you've got artificial gravity you can help deal with those Gs. Gravitational force due to acceleration and mass are physically identical.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 11, 2011, 04:28:00 pm
How come the Sanctus doesn't have a rotator?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 11, 2011, 04:40:11 pm
Presumably it generates its gravity traditionally; apparently requiring more power.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 11, 2011, 04:44:33 pm
That, and the fact it's originally a Diaspora ship IIRC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 11, 2011, 04:47:10 pm
That, and the fact it's originally a Diaspora ship IIRC.

W-what?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 11, 2011, 04:51:28 pm
I thought it was, no ? Where did that ship come from then ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on March 11, 2011, 04:59:01 pm
I thought it was, no ? Where did that ship come from then ?
It is not. Steve-O created it, and it has heavy Babylon 5 influences as does his Karuna.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 11, 2011, 05:03:59 pm
Yeah, Steve-O ship. You think Diaspora would've used that many textures?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 12, 2011, 12:36:35 am
How would I know ? I've never have a look at a Diaspora's pof.

Anyway, I could have sworn... I guess I have a couple of fried memory cores in that headz.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 12, 2011, 12:46:08 am
Well a good rule of thumb is that Diaspora has never released any of its ships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on March 12, 2011, 01:02:42 am
There's been some comparisons between the Sanctus and Bolitho in the past...might have been where the association came from
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on March 12, 2011, 05:42:35 am
I think the old upanishad was closer to diaspora...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 12, 2011, 11:04:05 am
Well, as long as the UEF Ansarii isn't a black-matte Colonial Viper (which in turn still looks like an X-Wing to me), it's good with me. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 12, 2011, 11:10:08 am
The Viper or the Ansarii (F-19) looks like an X-Wing? :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 12, 2011, 11:45:36 am
The Viper or the Ansarii (F-19) looks like an X-Wing? :confused:

TOS Vipers do.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 12, 2011, 12:13:27 pm
wat

No.

Vipers have a vague resemblance to the F-16. The F-19 never existed; it was just a piece of concept art showing some guys impression of what the F-117 Nighthawk looked like, before it was officially unveiled. The Ainsaari model is based on that concept art.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 12, 2011, 12:15:59 pm
wat

No.

Vipers have a vague resemblance to the F-16. The F-19 never existed; it was just a piece of concept art showing some guys impression of what the F-117 Nighthawk looked like, before it was officially unveiled. The Ainsaari model is based on that concept art.

I just meant to reply on the original comments that some of the ships looked like Diaspora ships. To which I commented that it's all fine as long as the Ansarii is not a Viper (which it is not). :) Yea I know the resemblance of the F-19 and the Ansarii.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dragon on March 12, 2011, 06:34:27 pm
"Some Guy" you're talking about is noone other than Tom Clancy.
F-117 was so secret that people with better connections than Clancy were fooled by this (quite reasonable considering the Blackbird) depiction.
Even Lockheed employees who didn't had clearence for Have Blue (F-117 predecessor) had to go into a windowless mess hall when it's tests took place.
US Government did a great job misleading people about F-117.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 13, 2011, 05:42:38 am
[...]Steve-O created it, and it has heavy Babylon 5 influences as does his Karuna.
The Karuna in undeniable, but the Sanctus doesn't look much like a Babylon 5 ship. While it is pretty similar in armament and role to the Olympus corvette (railguns, plasma based pulse turrets and missiles - only the burst flak stands out), it's looks are very different from any B5 ship I remember. It does however have a resamblance to the destroyer of the Noah faction from "Nexus - The Jupiter Incident".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 13, 2011, 05:45:00 am
It's like a blend of the EA Shuttle and the AoG Avenger Carrier, filled with spikes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on March 13, 2011, 09:42:34 am
(http://membres.lycos.fr/babylon5pt/terra/olympus_2.gif)
Actually, there's some pretty striking similarities, mostly in the way of the engines and their configuration.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 13, 2011, 03:55:51 pm
Okay, maybe the engines look alike, but it's still looking more like the Noah destroyers than this lovly little flying brick.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on March 13, 2011, 04:08:00 pm
(http://nexusthegame.net/w/images/d/da/Destroyer.jpg)
(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Uecsanctus.jpg)
...A little, small bit, I guess, but otherwise? Not seeing it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 13, 2011, 04:24:51 pm
Try them in a silhouette view from either the top or the side.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 14, 2011, 07:03:01 am
The bridge, nose spike, and a slimmer but similar profile to the Sanctus is what I see.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on March 15, 2011, 03:45:53 pm
While playing bp2 again (Sometimes I start to think about suing you for making me addicted) during the past days, I wrote down a whole number of expressions of which I couldn't find out what they mean:

Collateral Damage:
1. FrigRon
2. TacArt Bravo
3. Ecliptic North
4. EMCON

Post Meridian:
1. Calling the Shots (well, you can take that from the context, but...)
2. Master Arm
3. BFM Advantage
4. G-Loc

For the Wrong Reasons
1. RSP
2. EOD Team
3. SAR

Darkest Hour
1. ACM
2. Load Sabot
3. Triage Casualties

The Plunder
1. CQB/HVBO

Delenda Est
1. Maader Ho

What does all that stuff mean? Worth to mention that most of it appears during your time with the Solaris. Seems like the Wargods would prefer simple language. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 15, 2011, 03:56:52 pm
A FrigRon is a Jovian frigate squadron (usually two/three ships).

TacArt Bravo is Tactical Artillery Squadron Bravo.

The ecliptic north is the area of a solar system (or planetary moon system) 'above' the ecliptic plane, which is the orbital plane of the bodies in the system.

EMCON is emissions control, curtailing or eliminating outgoing signals to prevent detection by enemy forces who might be listening.

Master Arm is a control on a combat aircraft that governs whether or not weapons can be fired.

BFM advantage is the upper hand in a dogfight (with the dogfight maneuvering being considered 'BFM', basic fighter maneuvers).

G-Loc is g-induced loss of consciousness, the impact of acceleration forces on a pilot's brain forcing them towards or into a faint.

RSP is Render Safe Procedure, a component of defusing a warhead.

EOD team is an Explosives Ordnance Disposal team.

SAR is Search and Rescue, a unit charged with tracking down ejected pilots.

ACM is Air Combat Maneuvering, the tactics used to win a dogfight.

Sabot rounds are weapons smaller than the bore of a gun, surrounded by disposable 'sabots' which help them fill up the weapon's bore so they can still be fired. In BP2 context, they are penetrator rounds designed to pierce heavy armor by concentrating maximum pressure on minimum area, as opposed to hive rounds which carry a larger explosive payload.

Triage is a process in combat medicine whereby medical specialists sort the wounded into three categories: those who will survive without treatment, those who will die no matter what, and those who would die without treatment but could be saved with work.

CQB/HVBO teams are close quarters battle/hostile vessel boarding operation teams.

Maader ho is an expression in Olefumi's blend of Afrikaans and South African slang.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on March 15, 2011, 04:07:46 pm
Wow. Thanks for that quick answer.
I guess at least one of you has served with the air/naval forces to know all that stuff? :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 15, 2011, 04:10:34 pm
A few.
Or they just know it for other reasons, like myself and my old space battle comics.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SD-Beast on March 15, 2011, 04:19:18 pm
After completing AoA again, and knowing what happens in WiH.
Spoiler:
The Vishnan's spoke so highly of the GTVA's accomplishments, add to this that Elder Mandho(sp?) says the whispers (From the Vishnans?) have stopped in "ken"... I think the Vishnans want the GTVA to win the conflict.

But not because they want the GTVA to become the new Brahmans, but rather....
Spoiler:
To replace the Shivans, who've been banished from the great council. I don't think it would take much convincing to get the GTVA to exterminate the former Destroyers... if given the chance.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 15, 2011, 04:20:16 pm
A few.
Or they just know it for other reasons, like myself and my old space battle comics.

Most of the pilot slang comes from Dilmah, who plans on having a career in the australian air force.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 15, 2011, 04:30:40 pm
I actually wrote most of the slang in after too many hours in Falcon 4.0, but Dilmah is probably better at it than me. There are a few uses that aren't entirely consistent with real life that I think he's spotted.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 15, 2011, 05:00:31 pm
After completing AoA again, and knowing what happens in WiH.
Spoiler:
The Vishnan's spoke so highly of the GTVA's accomplishments, add to this that Elder Mandho(sp?) says the whispers (From the Vishnans?) have stopped in "ken"... I think the Vishnans want the GTVA to win the conflict.

But not because they want the GTVA to become the new Brahmans, but rather....
Spoiler:
To replace the Shivans, who've been banished from the great council. I don't think it would take much convincing to get the GTVA to exterminate the former Destroyers... if given the chance.



That actually occured to me too. I don't know if that's the intended plot, but I almost kind of hope.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on March 15, 2011, 05:14:37 pm
In BP2 context, they are penetrator rounds designed to pierce heavy armor by concentrating maximum pressure on minimum area, as opposed to hive rounds which carry a larger explosive payload.

Are those rounds still 'sabot' if they don't use sabot? What you describe there is simple AP.
Then again, I know tanks, not navy. Perhaps the same term is used for two different types of ammunition.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 15, 2011, 05:22:51 pm
They're 'sabot' in that they're smaller in diameter than the bore of the weapon they're being fired from.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 15, 2011, 05:26:03 pm
In BP2 context, they are penetrator rounds designed to pierce heavy armor by concentrating maximum pressure on minimum area, as opposed to hive rounds which carry a larger explosive payload.

Are those rounds still 'sabot' if they don't use sabot? What you describe there is simple AP.
Then again, I know tanks, not navy. Perhaps the same term is used for two different types of ammunition.

They're smaller than the usual bore of the railguns, so they need sabots.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nuclear1 on March 15, 2011, 09:06:05 pm
EMCON is emissions control, curtailing or eliminating outgoing signals to prevent detection by enemy forces who might be listening.

Which, fun fact, is called two different names in the US government comm world:  EMSEC (Emissions/Emanations Security) or the NSA codeterm TEMPEST.


...trivia man AWAY
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 16, 2011, 04:39:54 am
After completing AoA again, and knowing what happens in WiH.
Spoiler:
The Vishnan's spoke so highly of the GTVA's accomplishments, add to this that Elder Mandho(sp?) says the whispers (From the Vishnans?) have stopped in "ken"... I think the Vishnans want the GTVA to win the conflict.

But not because they want the GTVA to become the new Brahmans, but rather....
Spoiler:
To replace the Shivans, who've been banished from the great council. I don't think it would take much convincing to get the GTVA to exterminate the former Destroyers... if given the chance.
Spoiler:
If I remember the timing correctly, the Vishnans stopped their contact during the war, not immediately upon arrival of the 14th in their own universe, so I think they stoped whispering either because they are disappointed by the UEFs actions during the war, because of some treaty with the Shivans about not intervening in such wars or because they want to evaluate the reaction of the UEF to see wether they really are as enlightened as they hope them to be.
Or as a more sinster alternative, they want to wait till the UEF lost the last shred of hope to ride in as the great saviours to make it easier for them to manipulate the Humans in the future.

Come to think of it, it could even be possible that the Shivans jammed the connection between the Vishnans and the Elders, either deliberately or simply through the connection between Ken and Laporte.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 16, 2011, 07:47:18 am
A few.
Or they just know it for other reasons, like myself and my old space battle comics.

Most of the pilot slang comes from Dilmah, who plans on having a career in the australian air force.
Yeahs, I picked a fair bit of it up at RAAF Base Pearce, where I used to get sent up for courses and that for weeks at a time when I was a cadet, and as a result got familiar with a bit of pilot slang and general defence force slang.

I actually wrote most of the slang in after too many hours in Falcon 4.0, but Dilmah is probably better at it than me. There are a few uses that aren't entirely consistent with real life that I think he's spotted.
The way in which you've used them makes them 'consistently inconsistent', which is good enough for me, since it satisfies the rule of cool. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 16, 2011, 10:13:22 am
Spoiler:
If I remember the timing correctly, the Vishnans stopped their contact during the war, not immediately upon arrival of the 14th in their own universe, so I think they stoped whispering either because they are disappointed by the UEFs actions during the war, because of some treaty with the Shivans about not intervening in such wars or because they want to evaluate the reaction of the UEF to see wether they really are as enlightened as they hope them to be.
Or as a more sinster alternative, they want to wait till the UEF lost the last shred of hope to ride in as the great saviours to make it easier for them to manipulate the Humans in the future.

Come to think of it, it could even be possible that the Shivans jammed the connection between the Vishnans and the Elders, either deliberately or simply through the connection between Ken and Laporte.

Spoiler:
Or the terran civil war and the recent skirmish (AoA) with the Shivans has sparked a war of their own. Vishans vs. Shivans. Metaphorically gods vs gods, a "war in heaven".

That's what I think anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 16, 2011, 10:40:03 am
That would make a lot of sense, but we wouldn't be able to see any of it in R2 anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 16, 2011, 02:03:38 pm
Spoiler:
But what would that mean for Ken?
Is he some kind of rebell, that he is taking his time with Laporte instead of helping in the war against the counterpart?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 16, 2011, 02:06:46 pm
We don't know if Ken is a Vishnan or a Shivan or a member of either one acting independently of his species.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 16, 2011, 02:12:12 pm
Quote
We don't know if Ken is a Vishnan or a Shivan
I used "counterpart" instead of stating either species exactly because of that. ;)
Quote
or a member of either one acting independently of his species.
And that's exactly what I meant with "rebel" in my question.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 16, 2011, 02:14:28 pm
Oh well then in that case I suppose we agree.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 16, 2011, 06:36:17 pm
Spoiler:
But what would that mean for Ken?
Is he some kind of rebell, that he is taking his time with Laporte instead of helping in the war against the counterpart?

Spoiler:
I can't guess Ken's true purpose until WiH part deux is released. For all we (don't) know, the UEF may making a shocking choice which triggers Laporte to choose an entirely different side. She seems like a fighter, if the UEF surrender, flee, go on exodus or do something totally wack there's no telling what role Laporte plays.

Again Ken might indeed be Aken (Bosch) who in turn tries to rally terrans to help the Shivans, only used as a tool and puppet by the Shivans to fight the Vishans with and ensuring that the devided terrans become no new Brahmas. In that case they can continue destroying stuff unopposed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 16, 2011, 06:48:21 pm
Spoiler:
"You are a made thing" This line has always had me pondering. Does it refer to Laporte's ultimate purpose? Or is she literally a Shivan baby?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 16, 2011, 07:01:44 pm
Spoiler:
"You are a made thing" This line has always had me pondering. Does it refer to Laporte's ultimate purpose? Or is she literally a Shivan baby?

Spoiler:
I assume she was conditioned with her psychosis by divine (Shivan or Vishan) intervention. An entirely different option is that Ken is the last of the Brahmas who is responsible for both Bei and Laporte, believing it'll even the terrans out and lead to a greater destiny.
.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 16, 2011, 08:45:37 pm
I think you may have it backwards regarding mental state being a result of contact.

Consider the mental state of our known...let's call them contacts. Samuel Bei was known for his calm and certainty, and he certainly projected that in his appearances in AoA. This would also describe the Vishies. This state existed in Bei before his first contacts, which would seem to put the lie to your ordering of things.

Now consider whose mental state Naomi's appears to most closely match.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 16, 2011, 09:07:09 pm
Bei talked about hearing their voices for his entire life, though (iirc) and not realizing it
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 16, 2011, 09:46:59 pm
Bei talked about hearing their voices for his entire life, though (iirc) and not realizing it

Curses, a good theory foiled.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 17, 2011, 01:15:41 am
Well, he didn't realise it until the Temeraire's battlegroup was rescued by the Sacred Keeper.

And then he executed Order 66went to fulfil his destiny and averted a catastrophe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 17, 2011, 06:11:17 am
In that regard, even more would point toward Ken being Shivan. From what we saw of them I think of the Vishnans as subtle and only intervening when necessary and with minimal force, thus their influence over Bei was completely "invisible" so to say to others. Noone noticed anything odd about him.

But the Shivans, usually prefering a more direct approach, messed up a little bit in their contact with Laporte and thus she was diagnosed with a mental condition.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 17, 2011, 07:03:16 am
...and thus she was diagnosed with a mental condition.

Where did you get this from? "Fugue" flight is not a mental condition. It's a post-battle trauma symptom.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 17, 2011, 08:04:14 am
Laporte : "I had a psychotic episode in my early teens. Hallucinations, imagined companions, schizophrenic symptoms."
From : Ken, Mission 04, WiH.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 17, 2011, 08:49:08 am
Symptoms only, but I see your point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 17, 2011, 10:14:33 am
I think it was mentioned that it was officially diagnosed at some point. Don't remember where that was mentioned though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 18, 2011, 08:46:09 am
Would be unlikely, such a diagnosis would disqualify her for Officer Aircrew entry. That's under current laws, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 18, 2011, 09:25:20 am
I guess it comes down to if in the 24th century psychotic symptoms can be ordinarily be entirely repressed without any ill side-effects under normal circumstances.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 18, 2011, 10:03:49 am
Would be unlikely, such a diagnosis would disqualify her for Officer Aircrew entry. That's under current laws, though.
"Conveniently, it remitted in time for you to enter the Academy."
Lieutenant Vicmouth, same mission, the line just following the one I quoted earlier. Sounds like some of you didn't pay enough attention at that dialogue, amirite.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 18, 2011, 10:10:04 am
Hey man, if you'd played those missions in as many different stages as I had, it'd become a big blur for you too. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 18, 2011, 10:24:01 am
Just crack-open the mission file. Do you think I remember all the dialog by heart too ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 18, 2011, 10:29:26 am
Well I couldn't recall that anything of that effect was said (though now you've jogged my memory and I do), so I had no reason to. Anyway!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 18, 2011, 10:29:45 am
But all work and no play makes Dilmah a dull boy. I think he has to open missions, both textual and ingame often enough already. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on March 18, 2011, 01:12:28 pm
Is it logic to send someone with a spotty psychological record to the heat of combat?
I think if Laporte were to apply to a modern air force, they'd laugh in her face.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 18, 2011, 01:29:44 pm
Never know, they could let her in anyway. I've seen some people with psychs that really made me question just how far processing personnel bend their own rules.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 18, 2011, 02:03:40 pm
Is it logic to send someone with a spotty psychological record to the heat of combat?

We have no idea what psychological record being "spotty" means by this point in time. It's a not-uncommon sci-fi concept that by the standards of a future society a fighter pilot is often a raving lunatic. Laporte might well have been selected for her specialty because she was borderline, and therefore guaranteed to be both aggressive and relatively unimpressed by the stresses of her job.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 18, 2011, 02:18:33 pm
I've no doubt there were serious concerns about her suitability, but this being a future where treatment for various physical and mental ailments has presumably advanced a great deal, it was taken as gospel that if she were able to nail the entrance requirements - including checks for just this kind of instability - she would make it in. History alone isn't enough to disqualify when that history presumably lead to (often effective!) treatment.

By comparison, someone born paraplegic in the UEF could doubtless get into the fighter corps assuming their paraplegia was no longer an issue at the time of application and they could pass the physical standards.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 18, 2011, 05:57:15 pm
Also there is a desparate war going on. When you need pilots bad, you tend to soften the prerequisits a bit more I guess.
Additionally there are Brie and Mandho. Having a wing leader and an Elder among your aquaintances might help in getting the job you want. While it is theoretically possible, I think it's rather unlikely that from all the 1st fleets wings Laport would end up in the one led by her uncle by coincidence.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 19, 2011, 07:00:30 am
I thought she was admitted before the war started. I'm not sure.
Damn I need to play BP again... but that's not a bad thing actually. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 19, 2011, 09:45:01 am
Doesn't really matter. Could just as well be that the Feyadeen monitored her since her birth and they pulled the strings to get her in, because they know she'll be needed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 19, 2011, 02:30:10 pm
Considering the "should we be overjoyed or very afraid" line and that she was tested by Vicmouth in the middle of the campaign I somehow doubt it was the Vedayeen who pulled strings for her.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 19, 2011, 05:30:02 pm
They would have to be onto the Nagari bit long before anyone who has an immediate, pressing reason to investigate it was, which seems...unlikely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 19, 2011, 05:57:57 pm
You're jumping to conclusions. First we don't know whether the Beis and the Fedayeen are of the same opinion on that matter, especially since they (the Beis) seemed to have learnt about it only recently. Second, the fact that the Bei's received the Vicmouth's report doesn't mean that this is the first report the Fedayeen have made on her. They might have just passed them the most recent data on her when they decided to reveal them her case. We lack data on the relation between the Beis and the fedayeen to make any assumption on that front.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 19, 2011, 06:06:10 pm
Vicmouth worked for the Council, but this doesn't mean his information didn't reach the Fedayeen (actually it basically guarantees it).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 19, 2011, 07:30:03 pm
I was more referring to the people who suggested the Feyadeen got her into the fighter corps to begin with and have been watching her most of her life.

They didn't have a reason to be looking yet, before the war started, because there wasn't a threat or anything to be gained before the node was reopened. Any Feyadeen interest in Naomi will come later than the point they realize there's something to be interested in, and so far as we know that point was the debriefing of Bei.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 19, 2011, 08:32:43 pm
I'm pretty sure the Elders have been making researches on Nagari long before AoA. They might very well have detected the potential of Laporte when she was young and followed here ever since.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 19, 2011, 10:48:00 pm
I'm pretty sure the Elders have been making researches on Nagari long before AoA. They might very well have detected the potential of Laporte when she was young and followed here ever since.

Why? There's absolutely no evidence for this. They wouldn't have even had a reason to look into it, and if they did it was a far less urgent one then the Vasudans, who according to BP fluff only came to this a good bit after Capella. Naomi's been alive longer than anyone's had a reason to be interested in her.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 19, 2011, 11:09:32 pm
They know about nagari, the last indicator on mission Ken was for it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 19, 2011, 11:24:57 pm
They know about nagari, the last indicator on mission Ken was for it.

They know about it now. But that doesn't say anything about when they learned.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SD-Beast on March 20, 2011, 01:10:12 am
I thought it was heavily implied that the Elders/Fedayeen knew about Nagari because FS1's Alpha 1 had the same gift?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on March 20, 2011, 01:33:01 am
I thought it was heavily implied that the Elders/Fedayeen knew about Nagari because FS1's Alpha 1 had the same gift?

But as long as the node was closed, there was no point in pursuing that knowledge. It couldn't gain them anything.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 20, 2011, 01:35:04 am
What?

Just because the benefits are not readily identifiable does NOT mean you abandon research on the subject.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 20, 2011, 02:04:26 am
What?

Just because the benefits are not readily identifiable does NOT mean you abandon research on the subject.

Tell that to the UEF military
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 20, 2011, 03:35:32 am
The Fedayeen are not UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on March 20, 2011, 05:21:14 am
Then what are they?  NSA/CIA equivalent?  Stazi?  KGB?  They are obviously a military organization and are affiliated with the UEF.

One thing I do know, they are NOT a fanatical theocratic hegemony born from a desert world with giant worms.  :nono:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on March 20, 2011, 06:32:56 am
They aren't really working for the UEF and the elders (officially), many of them are Nagari sensitives (including the two Bei's), they are waiting for the end of the war and they know about these apocalypse story mentioned by Emperor Khonsu.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 20, 2011, 06:39:46 am
Then what are they?  NSA/CIA equivalent?  Stazi?  KGB?  They are obviously a military organization and are affiliated with the UEF.

One thing I do know, they are NOT a fanatical theocratic hegemony born from a desert world with giant worms.  :nono:
The only affiliation I see is that they obviously use the same ships. Of course we know next to nothing about the Fedayeen (neither do any of the main WiH characters at this point) so all we can do is speculate.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 20, 2011, 06:40:37 am
The Fedayeen might not even exist, that is how cool they are.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on March 20, 2011, 06:50:27 am
Then what are they?  NSA/CIA equivalent?  Stazi?  KGB?  They are obviously a military organization and are affiliated with the UEF.

CIA's Special Activities Division.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 20, 2011, 06:53:31 am
They aren't really working for the UEF and the elders (officially), many of them are Nagari sensitives (including the two Bei's), they are waiting for the end of the war and they know about these apocalypse story mentioned by Emperor Khonsu.

Baseless speculation in bold. Stuff that is really wrong in italics.

Then what are they?  NSA/CIA equivalent?  Stazi?  KGB?  They are obviously a military organization and are affiliated with the UEF.

One thing I do know, they are NOT a fanatical theocratic hegemony born from a desert world with giant worms.  :nono:

None of the above. Wait for R2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 20, 2011, 07:00:38 am
One thing I do know, they are NOT a fanatical theocratic hegemony born from a desert world with giant worms.  :nono:
This made me chuckle.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 20, 2011, 07:02:30 am
The <REDACTED> might not even exist, that is how cool they are.

Who?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on March 20, 2011, 02:37:07 pm
The ones we speak about.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on March 20, 2011, 04:14:11 pm
One thing I do know, they are NOT a fanatical theocratic hegemony born from a desert world with giant worms.  :nono:
This made me chuckle.
FINALLY!!!!

After 10 years I made someone laugh intentionally!  VICTORY!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on March 20, 2011, 05:03:52 pm
The ones we speak about.

Well, that would fly if they weren't explicitly mentioned in Sunglare. From a member, no less.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 20, 2011, 05:53:30 pm
Or at least someone claiming to be a member. But can you really trust the word of someone coming out of nowhere and admitting they'd be perfectly content to let the ship's crew die a painfull death, if it wasn't for that one special person they want to recruit?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 20, 2011, 05:55:36 pm
The ones we speak about.

Well, that would fly if they weren't explicitly mentioned in Sunglare. From a member, no less.

How would you know? Radiowaves must be pretty hard to pick up against the Sun's background noise, anything could've been said out there...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on March 20, 2011, 06:06:48 pm
Or at least someone claiming to be a member. But can you really trust the word of someone coming out of nowhere and admitting they'd be perfectly content to let the ship's crew die a painfull death, if it wasn't for that one special person they want to recruit?

A whole ship, the implication was that the crew was Fedayeen. "We are not fleet. We are Fedayeen" and universe meta-knowledge has them pinned as existing, with FS1 Alpha 1 and the Vasudans having disappeared into it/formed it.

I think it's safe to say the Deterrence Flotilla of First Fleet is some euphemism to give some legality to the otherwise paramilitary organisation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 20, 2011, 06:13:27 pm
The ones we speak about.

Well, that would fly if they weren't explicitly mentioned in Sunglare. From a member, no less.

How would you know? Radiowaves must be pretty hard to pick up against the Sun's background noise, anything could've been said out there...
That was a science vessel studying solar weather patterns. I don't know what you think you saw pilot, but I suggest you forget all about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 22, 2011, 04:24:23 am
Coming back to a topic of four pages ago...
I had a though yesterday (probably due to reading the first Ciaphas Cain book again).

I thought that maybe Ken is deliberately trying to provoke a war between the Shivans and Vishnans.
Let's assume for a moment that the conflict in AoA was limited to the other universe and "over here" they are still allies. Now we have the UEF, which is clearly under the influence of the Vishnans and suddenly a "person" that appears much like a Shivan in philosophies and behaviour starts to manipulate what is hinted to be the strongest Nagari presence in the whole star system.
Now that is a pertty clear provocation towards the Vishnans, who might start to blame the Shivans for their conduct, which might lead to a war between the two.

Such a scenario would throw up a few question (or reiterate them in some cases):
Who or what is Ken? Is he a rebel Vishnan or Shivan, Bosch, or a member of another, so far unknown, species?
Whatever he is, what would he have to gain though?
Is he an outcast out for revenge? Or maybe a surviver trying to take revenge on the Shivans for wiping out his race and the Vishnans for just watching?
Is he trying to occupy the attention of the big two, so his own race can go unnotices for a bit longer?
Or is he trying to pave the way for an attack against the big two?
Or is he actually a Brahma poking around and testing the reactions of the Shivans and Vishnans to judge wether they kept their roles and punish them if they didn't?
Or might he be a Shivan from the other universe that sliped somehow made it through to our universe and tries to make the Vishnans pay for what they did in AoA, with or without the Shivans on our side knowing about it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 22, 2011, 06:33:58 am
Makes me wonder if the Vishnans are even really present in our own universe. I think it's hinted in AoA that they're constant in both our universe and the 'apocalypse scenario' universe. Sam states a few times that he's felt their presence in some form or another throughout his life, yet they only contacted him when he went into the AoA universe. Now they're suddenly silent. Does it take a whole glasssed planet for them to show up? :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 22, 2011, 08:29:00 am
No, you got it a bit wrong. The Vishnans kept in touch with him during the first eight months of the war (i.e. the first eight months after the end of AoA). WiH begins eighteen months after AoA, and Sam mentioned that he has not heard from the Vishnans for ten months.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 22, 2011, 09:50:42 am
IIRC in the mission Ken, one of the messages was an Elder saying 'no one's heard a whisper from them in <can't remember>, why are they silent?' as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 23, 2011, 01:14:05 am
Quote from: Elder Martin Mandho, bp2-04.fs2 "Ken"
Why are they silent? No one has heard a whisper in more than a year...what does it mean?

This one?

"More than a year" is greater than ten months, though, and Samuel said "ten months" at the end of Sunglare, so is there a continuity issue there?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 23, 2011, 03:12:33 am
Since those comments were made by different people I see no continuity breach.
The Elder lost contact more than a year ago, Sam followed suit a few month later.

It could be that the Vishnans kept the contact with Sam up longer than with the Elders deliberately to facilitate whatever plans they have for the UEF.
Or they aren't unwilling to communicate, but rather unable and because Sam has more Nagari presence (or however you want to call it) they were able to keep in touch with him longer than with the Elder.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 23, 2011, 04:15:21 am
I don't think Samuel's Nagari sensitivity has anything to do with him being unable to communicate with the Vishnans. I've a feeling that they deliberately decided to cut him off for a little space. As to why they would do that is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 23, 2011, 06:29:56 am
Perhaps the Shivans did something to the Vishnans in that Apocalypse universe, with that SJ Dante...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on March 23, 2011, 07:00:03 am
last i checked, the dante was actually getting hammered by the preserver... if the two met again in combat...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 23, 2011, 07:34:17 am
last i checked, the dante was actually getting hammered by the preserver... if the two met again in combat...

Only cause the preserver is freded to knock out the Dante's beam cannons. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 23, 2011, 07:40:19 am
Yeah, IIRC the Dante is slightly better than the Preserver. Doesn't mean that the Vishnans wouldn't win. Also doesn't mean that neither of em don't have even bigger stuff.

Inb4Gargant.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 23, 2011, 10:30:17 am
The Preserver wasn't positioned to properly combat the Dante. This is why it always ended up taking more damage in initial releases of AoA. Even in a fair fight, the Dante will most likely win (4 BFReds versus 3 LRABeams).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 26, 2011, 01:24:56 pm
Just had this insane thought, what if Vishans = Shivans and they're just using this really elaborate ploy to have humankind eradicate itself?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on March 26, 2011, 01:37:28 pm
Arms races tend to make sides stronger toward the end, unless we really did go brink-of-extinction style, it wouldn't make sense.
It's also really not the Shivans' style.
....And it's a bit too convoluted...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 26, 2011, 01:39:42 pm
Just had this insane thought, what if Vishans = Shivans and they're just using this really elaborate ploy to have humankind eradicate itself?


Mind = Blown.

In all seriousness, that would be such a cop out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 26, 2011, 02:01:07 pm
(or maybe the Vishnans and Shivans are distinct but working together)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on March 26, 2011, 02:04:26 pm
Yeah, IIRC the Dante is slightly better than the Preserver. Doesn't mean that the Vishnans wouldn't win. Also doesn't mean that neither of em don't have even bigger stuff.

Inb4Gargant.
The Dante may be bigger in total surface area, but the Preserver has it beat in both volume and length.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 26, 2011, 04:02:20 pm
I don't think the Shivans and Vishnans are working together in some ploy to destroy Humans and Vasudans. If they wanted to do that, they could have simply used those 80 Sathanas to glass every planet anywere near GTVA space.

Maybe they are two factions fo the same species, with different philosophies, but I very much doubt they work together, much less to destroy mankind.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 27, 2011, 11:33:50 am
Maybe they are two factions fo the same species, with different philosophies, but I very much doubt they work together, much less to destroy mankind.

They aren't really factions at all tbh, they're role in the plot seems to supersede that. I like to think the Vishnan-Shivan situation is complicated enough that we won't be able to guess these things straight out, or deceptively simple enough to achieve the same effect, if you catch my drift. :) I doubt the Shivans/Vishnans are somehow working together to destroy humanity or anything as straightforward as that. If their motives were straightforward they'd have already achieved them, which they evidently haven't.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 27, 2011, 04:20:06 pm
It was more of a what-if and "WTF" remark than a serious conclusion. :P But it would be shocking.

I'm also not sure at what scale the Shivans and Vasudans are active. If it is within their galaxy or within the universe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on March 27, 2011, 05:45:12 pm
The Shivans purpose, at least within the BPverse(as I see it), based upon the very short dialogue between the preserver and dante, is to "encourage" growth of species once they reach a certain level of development and also to "encourage" in such a way that they are unified as a species prior to contact with the other enlightened species.  So here's how I see it:

Brahmans were the most advanced Type 3 in the Races and then left that group and disappeared they either collapsed(possibly becoming Humans?) or became Type 4 and no longer had anything in common with the Others.

Vishnans seem to be slightly more advanced than the Shivans and are likely a solid Type 3.  They also seem to be de facto in leadership of the Others as they banished the Shivans in the apoc-verse.

Shivans are the lowest in the hierarchy.  Borderline Type 3, they are more likely a Type 2 with a few nasty tricks.

Humans and Vasudans are high end type 1 that the Shivans are "encouraging".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on March 27, 2011, 06:56:38 pm
The Shivans purpose, at least within the BPverse(as I see it), based upon the very short dialogue between the preserver and dante, is to "encourage" growth of species once they reach a certain level of development and also to "encourage" in such a way that they are unified as a species prior to contact with the other enlightened species.  So here's how I see it:

Brahmans were the most advanced Type 3 in the Races and then left that group and disappeared they either collapsed(possibly becoming Humans?) or became Type 4 and no longer had anything in common with the Others.

Vishnans seem to be slightly more advanced than the Shivans and are likely a solid Type 3.  They also seem to be de facto in leadership of the Others as they banished the Shivans in the apoc-verse.

Shivans are the lowest in the hierarchy.  Borderline Type 3, they are more likely a Type 2 with a few nasty tricks.

Humans and Vasudans are high end type 1 that the Shivans are "encouraging".
This is interesting but can you define the 'types' you are referring to?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 27, 2011, 06:57:13 pm
I assume you rate that with Kardashev scale? Generally rated from type 1 to type 3, type 0 and 4 being more so unofficial/theoretical.

This is interesting but can you define the 'types' you are referring to?

In short, for those who don't know the Kardashev scale, it is a typology which grades the advancement of a species on a universal scale. I'll explain it as I understand it:

Type 0 - Unofficially, a civilization which cannot draw the full power from their own planet falls in this catagory. Like us! But we're getting close, we're 0.72 right now and rising faster each decade, depending on innovative new ideas for gaining energy wether or not we rise even faster still.

Type 1 - The first grade on the Kardashev scale, involving a civilization which can draw all available power from their own planet in any thinkable way. This can be from heat, water, air, converting whatever material into a source of energy and so on. Scientifically, quote, 10^16W to 10^17W.

Type 2 - This type of civilizations can draw energy directly from their own sun(s) or a source of similar power. They can for example build a Dyson's sphere or shell (an artificial world around a sun, living on the inside of the sphere and not on the outside surface) which finds itself in the habitable zone of a star. The amount of power they draw is so large they are capable of powering and maintaining some serious technological endeavours. If these people can convert energy into matter, they can probably spit out one after another large starship with ease. Again scientificially, we're talking here about 4 ×10^26W, roughly the amount of energy our sun gives out. This can vary depending on the size of a sun.

Type 3 - Now, these guys learned to not just tap into their sun (or a comparable power source), but into other suns! They most probably can travel between solar systems and repeat the process they applied to their own star, to another star. Alternately, they may have found ways to manipulate space so that they can tap into other stars comfortably from their own solar system. These guys eventually travel from star to star and can tap into the energy from their entire galaxy. They can summon up so much energy that they probably can perform unthinkable feats, manipulating laws of physics/science in ways we cannot come to imagine. How much energy that is depends greatly on the size of the galaxy.

Type 4 - Not really part of the Kardashev scale, but theoretically these civilizations can tap into the energy of several galaxies or even the supermassive black hole at the centre of our galaxy. These civilizations harvest so much power that they can probably manipulate the very excistance of all that is. Eventually they may leave the explored universe as we know it, they are no longer part of the workings which are our universe.


I imagine the Terrans and Vasudans both as a type 1 civilization. They can fully draw power and resources from theirs and other planets, or totalling that of one planet by using various planets to this goal. The ancients may have come close to being a type 2 civilization, as they seemingly had much more time to spread over the galaxy and already managed to build several (immensely costly) Knossos gates.

I personally also place the Shivans as a type 3. They seem to blow up entire stars and not taking into account whatever reason or explanation BP will offer for that, they probably draw power from the resulting nebulae or black holes this way. I think the Vishans can do the same, but being preservers probably do not take more than they need. Shivans seem to create entire fleets of Sathanas juggernaughts which in numbers are an effective but costly design, we do not know how many ships the Vishans own. Seeing that the Brahmas formed a triumvirate society with the Shivans and Vishans, I'll imagine they were on par with the Shivans and Vishans for some time, until either being destroyed or reaching a type 4 stage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on March 27, 2011, 07:16:06 pm
Thanks for that, that was nicely written and informative. One thing I've wondered about the BP-verse is why the Vishans and Shivans are so concerned with the goings on of humanity. I know, I know, the Vishans see the potential within us to take the mantle of the Brahmans, but as you say, we seem to be just on the cusp of a type 1 species, which is essentially the start of our journey to the stars and no way near what we'll eventually become. The ending shot of War in Heaven, with the milky way in the back and hundreds of thousands of stars makes me wonder, are interdimensional creatures waging war across parallel universes really that interested in one little war around one tiny star, a war which without intervention is presumably going to run its course soon anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 27, 2011, 07:22:39 pm
Who says we'll become the next Brahmas in one week? :) If the Vishans and Shivans trust us to become the creators, we may have to walk a path of thousands if not tens of thousands of years. :)

Also, alternately, spiritualists may reckon that a type 4 would be an evolution where one becomes a being transcending the physical state as we know it, either by natural or artificial evolution. Many religions which deal with rebirth believe that when all of life's lessons are learned, one becomes transcended in such a manner.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2011, 10:55:24 pm
Act 3 beta FREDding should be done as soon as AXEM

(we're just waiting on his m21, more or less)

This will put the elapsed time for Act 3 at about 7 months or so, which is a little slower than we wanted, but Act 3's missions turned out to all be hilariously complex. I have been replaying them recently and many of them are also hilariously fun, though not without their issues.

We have an optional new system whereby players can access a lot of extra plot material via missions if they like. There's an opt-out for those who prefer to get down to the action. Those souls will probably still face many WORDS, but fewer than they might otherwise.

We've been corresponding with a man of some stature in the development team of [REDACTED FOR HIS PRIVACY], a game of some repute. As a pro developer he seemed quite fond of our work but wanted some voice acting to help deal with all the tl;dr.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 27, 2011, 10:59:07 pm
I don't know what else to say, so forgive me:


WOOOOOOOOOOO!  :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 27, 2011, 11:00:01 pm
I'm curious, is it hard to make an explosion with a huge flash and bloom, for a nuclear weapon like the Eos? The standard blue shockwave is really...well...bland.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2011, 11:01:30 pm
Like the one on the Supernova?

The Eos should already have a pretty good flash and a fair bit of faux-bloom...

Mars: just be aware we've still got to do Act 4 and 5. Unless people want to play Act 3 as some kind of super-mini episodic release, but I dunno...seems too much of a dripfeed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 27, 2011, 11:04:53 pm
Like the one on the Supernova?

The Eos should already have a pretty good flash and a fair bit of faux-bloom...

Mars: just be aware we've still got to do Act 4 and 5. Unless people want to play Act 3 as some kind of super-mini episodic release, but I dunno...seems too much of a dripfeed.

No, it's any news is good news. I don't expect the release anytime soon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 27, 2011, 11:10:55 pm
What, THAT was the...bloom? There was...no flash at all and the bloom is hilariously tiny...I was expecting more, but...heheh, I don't think it's a high priority so...I guess I'll have to be content with the current one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 27, 2011, 11:13:05 pm
What, THAT was the...bloom? There was...no flash at all and the bloom is hilariously tiny...I was expecting more, but...heheh, I don't think it's a high priority so...I guess I'll have to be content with the current one.
Dude. . . Supernovas and capital ship explosions do make a flash. Also, you keep on coming off just came off (to me) as extremely passive aggressive, and I don't know if you mean to.

EDITED
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 27, 2011, 11:30:20 pm
I mean, Eos impacts. I'm not sure what you mean by passive aggressive though...what is it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 27, 2011, 11:33:46 pm
 I suspect I simply misread your post, I tend to see passive aggression behind every bush.

Hang on, I'll look at the table, there's a good chance it's a simple mod.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2011, 11:37:44 pm
What, THAT was the...bloom? There was...no flash at all and the bloom is hilariously tiny...I was expecting more, but...heheh, I don't think it's a high priority so...I guess I'll have to be content with the current one.

Go to seven minutes in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIGG1zyX5Cc&playnext=1&list=PL319DA3374E2CBE03

Too small for you?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 27, 2011, 11:40:43 pm
I hope it's a simple mod, because this doesn't look like there's any flash at all... (http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww286/TSADestiny/Et%20cetera/Untitled-1.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2011, 11:41:47 pm
That looks fine. The Eos isn't a superweapon, it has about half the yield of a Cyclops.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 27, 2011, 11:44:58 pm
That's fine? If you say so, then I guess it is. Although...nuclear weapons aren't superweapons? Interesting...even though it can wipe cities off the planet. Although, when it comes to weapons like nukes and antimatter bombs, one would expect a blinding flash of light and a huge bloom, and more for antimatter bombs. Would look pretty though, but...heheh, yeah.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2011, 11:48:04 pm
Mate, I don't think you have an idea of the scale of FreeSpace weaponry. Your average Tempest or Hellfire rocket is nuclear-yield. An Eos is by no means a superweapon.

Now you can feel free to mod every weapon in the game to produce a blinding flash of light and a huge bloom, but I expect you won't have much fun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 27, 2011, 11:49:00 pm
These things are operating in vacuum. No matter for them to propagate a boom off of, and the flash is going to be incredibly short lived and far less impressive than it would be in atmosphere.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 27, 2011, 11:49:31 pm
That's fine? If you say so, then I guess it is. Although...nuclear weapons aren't superweapons? Interesting...even though it can wipe cities off the planet. Although, when it comes to weapons like nukes and antimatter bombs, one would expect a blinding flash of light and a huge bloom, and more for antimatter bombs. Would look pretty though, but...heheh, yeah.

GTM Fury (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Fury) It's a weapon from FS1, it was carried in large numbers, much like a Hellfire or a Tempest. Not look at the yield in the Tech Description - it's 3Kt - yes 3 Kilotons of TNT.

Yeilds in FS are very high. In BP they've been tuned down a bit, but still, a nuclear bomb is par for the course in BP. A lot of ordinance goes flying around.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2011, 11:49:56 pm
Yeah, nukes in vacuum are basically a flashbulb.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 27, 2011, 11:55:19 pm
I would, but sadly I'm not cut out for coding and modifying something like Blue Planet even for myself.


Well...I doubt we'd need bombers for a planetary bombardment since we can just simply wipe out an entire continent with a wing of Ares loaded with Tempests, hahaha.

Although, I'm not getting what FS1 is trying to do, by cramming all those numbers and kilotons and Class A B C threats into the tech room.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on March 28, 2011, 12:08:22 am
Mate, I don't think you have an idea of the scale of FreeSpace weaponry. Your average Tempest or Hellfire rocket is nuclear-yield.

That's something I really, really wish wasn't canon, TBH. It means that every time you give pirates or in BP the Gefs any secondaries at all, their motivation to fight the player ought to disappear. "We have 240 Tempest missiles. Give use what we want or we will start destroying cities."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on March 28, 2011, 12:09:28 am
Mate, I don't think you have an idea of the scale of FreeSpace weaponry. Your average Tempest or Hellfire rocket is nuclear-yield. An Eos is by no means a superweapon.

Now you can feel free to mod every weapon in the game to produce a blinding flash of light and a huge bloom, but I expect you won't have much fun.
Well actually, Eos, Supernova, Apocalypse, etc were/are supposed to have the red flash like Helios, Cyclops and rest of the player usable bombs do. And according to the config files, they still do. Which means there should be visible red flash, unless it is obstructed by shockwave somehow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 28, 2011, 12:09:55 am
Mate, I don't think you have an idea of the scale of FreeSpace weaponry. Your average Tempest or Hellfire rocket is nuclear-yield.

That's something I really, really wish wasn't canon, TBH. It means that every time you give pirates or in BP the Gefs any secondaries at all, their motivation to fight the player ought to disappear. "We have 240 Tempest missiles. Give use what we want or we will start destroying cities."

Except, you know, the 650 meter maximum range.  That kinda puts a crimp on anti-city strikes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 12:14:28 am
I've no idea how they got into almost capturing that Comet Breaker, but if I were them, I'd remove that fuse that detonates it 650 meters. Nuclear rockets detonating in the atmopshere isn't good either...EMP and all that. Like Black Wolf, I wished that FS1 techroom stuff wasn't canon, but...it's set in stone.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on March 28, 2011, 01:18:32 am
Also kind of a hassle using FS2 weapons in atmospheric battles and having to have it behave differently.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 28, 2011, 03:22:21 am
Well, even if they behave differently, there won't be much of a difference unless the objects are torpedoes, right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 28, 2011, 04:21:36 am
Gravity and aerodynamic restistance in case of any missile and projectile. Physical reactions and more heat loss for plasma weapons. Possible refraction by higher particle density for lasers. And probably a lot more I don't know about.

Also shockwaves propagate better in the atmosphere, making them much more of a threat.

So yes, atmosphere is going to have a pretty big impact on almost (if not every) aspect of a battle.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on March 28, 2011, 04:42:28 am
You guys are supposing that planets won't have planetary defense of any sort. There will also be the mandatory fighters that even backwater planets will probably have.

Edit: Ah whatever... I'm speculating as well. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 04:56:19 am
I think it can be inferred that fifth generation air superiority fighters like the F-22 Raptor and the PAK-FA will triumph against the fighters of today (23xx). Seriously though, I think that any military will make sure to have a terrestrial arm, like aircraft carriers and fighter jets. I'm willing to bet UEF fighters, however atmospheric flight-capable they are, cannot compete against a true fighter jet deployed by the UEF Air Force.











...that is, if it even exists.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on March 28, 2011, 06:43:25 am
I've no idea how they got into almost capturing that Comet Breaker, but if I were them, I'd remove that fuse that detonates it 650 meters. Nuclear rockets detonating in the atmopshere isn't good either...EMP and all that. Like Black Wolf, I wished that FS1 techroom stuff wasn't canon, but...it's set in stone.
It's not just FS1 that has a couple bad eggs like that, you know. FS2 has plenty more (which are probably worse) such as Argon only being in Sol aside from the nebula or that godawfully unlikely material the Deimos is made out of. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on March 28, 2011, 07:00:56 am
I've no idea how they got into almost capturing that Comet Breaker, but if I were them, I'd remove that fuse that detonates it 650 meters. Nuclear rockets detonating in the atmopshere isn't good either...EMP and all that. Like Black Wolf, I wished that FS1 techroom stuff wasn't canon, but...it's set in stone.
It's not just FS1 that has a couple bad eggs like that, you know. FS2 has plenty more (which are probably worse) such as Argon only being in Sol aside from the nebula or that godawfully unlikely material the Deimos is made out of. :p
:rolleyes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 28, 2011, 07:02:07 am
Isn't bloom a setting in the launcher?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 28, 2011, 07:06:50 am
Enable Post Processing, yes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 28, 2011, 07:31:57 am
So Destiny should just add the options -post_process and -bloom_intensity <something bigger than 75>?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on March 28, 2011, 07:34:29 am
Uh, the red flash is NOT a post-processing effect. It's an effect like any other explosion or shockwave effect, having post processing enabled or not doesn't make a difference whether it appears or not.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 28, 2011, 07:38:28 am
So Destiny should just add the options -post_process and -bloom_intensity <something bigger than 75>?
The Post Processing bit isn't needed on the custom flags tab anymore, it's on the graphics settings.
But also what Fury said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 07:59:00 am
Hmm...well, personally I don't think it matters too much anymore. Enjoy what already comes out of the factory.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 28, 2011, 08:25:54 am
Now that you got what you asked for you don't care anymore? :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 28, 2011, 08:37:54 am
Act 3 beta FREDding should be done as soon as AXEM

(we're just waiting on his m21, more or less)

M21? Just how many missions is this bad boy gonna be packing? Did Axem just start working with WiH from R2? I can't imagine how awesome R2 is gonna be with Vassago's Dirge talent on hand. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 08:47:14 am
Well the numbering picks up where R1 left off, so the first mission of Act 3 is m17. But missions aren't always developed in linear order.

I am free to disclose that Act 3 contains eight missions, one of which is a special sort which you will visit repeatedly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on March 28, 2011, 08:48:27 am
Battuta means mission 22. Act 3 sort of...expanded a bit from what was originally planned.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 08:52:15 am
**** you're right, m22.

The total count should still be correct though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 09:21:33 am
Now that you got what you asked for you don't care anymore? :(
I'm afraid of messing with settings I'm not familiar with, hahaha.


This is how the story goes: One day, I was playing with FRED. I didn't really know what the special EXP stuff meant, so I set it to 25k each. So somehow I blew up a Colossus while I was sitting 10klicks away. So I watched, a blue light. Slowly expanding. It...got closer. I was wondering where it was going. A few seconds later, it got larger. And suddenly, WHAM! I was sent flying at 200m/s before exploding.


Destiny was killed by a shockwave of the GTVA Colossus

Quick Start Mission
Quit or something
Return to briefing
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 28, 2011, 09:40:38 am
This is how the story goes: One day, I was playing with FRED. I didn't really know what the special EXP stuff meant, so I set it to 25k each. So somehow I blew up a Colossus while I was sitting 10klicks away. So I watched, a blue light. Slowly expanding. It...got closer. I was wondering where it was going. A few seconds later, it got larger. And suddenly, WHAM! I was sent flying at 200m/s before exploding.


Destiny was killed by a shockwave of the GTVA Colossus

Quick Start Mission
Quit or something
Return to briefing
To most people that would be an encouraging experience, as you now know what special exp does. Of course it's fine with me if you don't like it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 09:44:06 am
I don't think I wouldn't like it, I'll change it if I really feel it's...not enough. Don't worry.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 10:08:29 am
I don't think I wouldn't like it, I'll change it if I really feel it's...not enough. Don't worry.

The special explosion thing you're talking about doesn't have anything to do with the changes you wanted made to the Eos, though.

EDIT: I'm not saying you're a moron or anything, just that modding the Eos explosion effect won't make you die in a huge explosion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 28, 2011, 11:40:21 am
I'm actually at a loss as to how the flash works with Supernova torpedos and capital explosions. . . is it scripted?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 11:51:14 am
I think that split/one-second flash comes naturally in big explosions, like ships blowing up and stuff if you're close enough to it. It's barely noticeable with the Eos though, but...maybe it's something in the weapons.tbl.

I don't think I wouldn't like it, I'll change it if I really feel it's...not enough. Don't worry.

The special explosion thing you're talking about doesn't have anything to do with the changes you wanted made to the Eos, though.

EDIT: I'm not saying you're a moron or anything, just that modding the Eos explosion effect won't make you die in a huge explosion.
I understand perfectly, I was just givin' an example of my insecurity around settings I've never messed around before.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 11:54:34 am
I think that split/one-second flash comes naturally in big explosions, like ships blowing up and stuff if you're close enough to it. It's barely noticeable with the Eos though, but...maybe it's something in the weapons.tbl.

No, it's a special script in Blue Planet, later ported to the 3.6.12 MediaVPs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 11:56:38 am
Hmm I see, BP must contribute quite something to the mediaVPs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 28, 2011, 11:58:50 am
Yes. The script is found in the mediavps, mv_exp-sct.tbm in mv_effects. Its behaviour is controlled by the config data found in data\config.

I think that split/one-second flash comes naturally in big explosions, like ships blowing up and stuff if you're close enough to it. It's barely noticeable with the Eos though, but...maybe it's something in the weapons.tbl.

No, it's a special script in Blue Planet, later ported to the 3.6.12 MediaVPs.

By which he means, the script was originally used in BP2, but got integrated in the 3.6.12 MVPs during development.

Hmm I see, BP must contribute quite something to the mediaVPs.

That script was the major thing. Most contributions are actually codeside, as Battuta, Darius, Axem and Esarai are notorious for doing stuff that breaks the engine.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 28, 2011, 12:29:16 pm
That's a nice team motto: Breaking stuff to make it better!  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 12:32:59 pm
...unless it's your potato chips, but that's a different thing.

I wonder what the UEF uses Venus for.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 12:46:10 pm
sauna resort
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 28, 2011, 12:47:25 pm
What happens on Venus stays on Venus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 28, 2011, 12:49:29 pm
I seriously would not want to go to a sauna where it rains acid...dang.


Venus must be pretty secretive, it seems. Maybe the Secret Project™ and the temple of the Fedayeen®!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 28, 2011, 12:54:18 pm
I would expect them to use it for gas mining and the like. There's nothing really inhabitable about Venus or anything around it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 12:56:24 pm
it's a deeeeep cleanse
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on March 28, 2011, 01:04:41 pm
dravis might still be on venus at that time...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on March 28, 2011, 01:10:12 pm
A spa sanctuary.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 28, 2011, 01:38:37 pm
It's more like a giant barbecue fest. Many rednecks fled earth when they confused venus for paradise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 28, 2011, 02:20:48 pm
Venus probably smells about as good as most Southern towns I spent my childhood in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on March 28, 2011, 03:57:39 pm
'Women are from Venus', I heard. And that's the reason to go to Venus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 28, 2011, 04:09:14 pm
'Women are from Venus', I heard. And that's the reason to go to Venus.

.... and then sue the false advertisement. But perhaps that's impossible once you've been downgraded to a flat 2D pizza version of yourself under Venus' atmosphere. It almost feels like an artificial selection tes..... Heeeeeeeey!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 28, 2011, 09:49:06 pm
Most contributions are actually codeside, as Battuta, Darius, Axem and Esarai are notorious for doing stuff that breaks the engine.

Yeah. For a while, we even had to make our own builds because the most recent Nightly Build wasn't advanced enough. After mid-July 2010, however, the Nightly Builds caught up and everything went back to normal.

I know Esarai's Arashi model was too complex for FS2_Open to handle, so it was scaled down. I don't know how Axem, Battuta and Darius managed to break such a relatively stable engine, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 09:49:57 pm
The **** done in a lot of the missions (Ken, for instance) was too much for it to handle in many respects.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on March 28, 2011, 10:45:28 pm
I know Esarai's Arashi model was too complex for FS2_Open to handle, so it was scaled down. I don't know how Axem, Battuta and Darius managed to break such a relatively stable engine, though.
Of the ones that I can think of off the top of my head, they were mostly related to assumptions that a previous coder (sometimes even :v:) had made. 

Ken for example, the rapid spamming of the training messages that is the brain reader, would crash the game because it would fill the buffers if the HUD was turned off too long (say when you turned your head, or devoured the world in an inky blackness (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=69103.0).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 28, 2011, 10:48:08 pm
The **** done in a lot of the missions (Ken, for instance) was too much for it to handle in many respects.

And what would that be exactly?.
I don't remember anything out of the ordinary in Ken aside from the indicator and the background/nebula change, yet I think both can be pulled off using already existing sexps.
Did any of those made FS2 crash on the early stage?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 10:50:48 pm
The **** done in a lot of the missions (Ken, for instance) was too much for it to handle in many respects.

And what would that be exactly?.
I don't remember anything out of the ordinary in Ken aside from the indicator and the background/nebula change, yet I think both can be pulled off using already existing sexps.
Did any of those made FS2 crash on the early stage?

Reading the previous post will be informative to you. And Ken is actually extremely complicated behind the scenes, using a bunch of workarounds involving empty string vars in training messages to play multiple sounds at once (play-sound-from-file can only handle one at a time.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 28, 2011, 11:02:30 pm
using a bunch of workarounds involving empty string vars in training messages to play multiple sounds at once (play-sound-from-file can only handle one at a time.)
That's the answer I was looking for, now I have a that need to open the file and take a peek.... or maybe tomorrow after a good rest.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2011, 11:10:15 pm
There's a couple of other interesting tricks in there like a 20-string-variable recursive loop with each var passing its value to the next every other second, and a lot of vars printed to training messages. But it's pretty simple compared to most r2 missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on March 28, 2011, 11:27:58 pm
and I thought I knew how to make complicated missions...such a mistake :ick:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on March 29, 2011, 12:28:52 am
It never occurred to me that the brain readings were that complicated. I'm genuinely impressed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 29, 2011, 05:18:54 am
Which was more complicated to FRED, the Blade Itself or Delenda Est?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 29, 2011, 05:22:49 am
Well, I guess the Blade Itself wasn't very complicated to FRED, since most the goodies are done via scripts...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 29, 2011, 05:32:26 am
We interrupt your discussion for a pretty picture.

(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/nara.png)

This concludes the interruption. Regular discussions will now resume.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 29, 2011, 05:42:29 am
Sweeeee...uhh...umm...well...eeto...ano...were those light blue things/colors/lights there in R1?

No wait, what was the regular discussion again...?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 29, 2011, 05:50:22 am
Weyland-Yutani?! :P I've always been an advocate of Lance Henriksen for the role of Admiral Byrne but...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 29, 2011, 05:58:27 am
Umm. You did see this:
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/solaris-poster.png)

Right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 29, 2011, 05:59:12 am
Sweeeee...uhh...umm...well...eeto...ano...were those light blue things/colors/lights there in R1?
No. This is the new optimized version by Esarai. Not only it only uses a single 4096² map instead of a dozen of 1024², but the whole texture scheme as been re-adapted to fit with the Solaris. The Karuna and the Sanctus are gonna follow the same treatment.

Honestly, the old scheme was crap. Dark tile textures were hiding the most of the details of that beautiful ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 29, 2011, 06:14:38 am
Hmm I see, it looks...pretty. Although no matter how I look at it, UEF caps all look like they just...stuck armor/components to a base and voila, a pretty ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 29, 2011, 06:16:49 am
Beautiful, beautiful ships.

Quote
Although no matter how I look at it, UEF caps all look like they just...stuck armor/components to a base and voila, a pretty ship.

WOOOOT
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 29, 2011, 06:36:00 am
The Narayana looks amazing. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on March 29, 2011, 07:03:11 am
Original design: Tethis Designs, Steve O
Artillery refit: Esa...Rai..., Bradbury

:D

Also: min time between jumps - yay for info!

The details really help! Looks techier now, I can imagine the interior would be tastefully done with the 300-years later version of LED mood lighting ;)

Here's to seeing the ship in action!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 29, 2011, 07:17:26 am
Hmm, I'm curious. The UEF ship designs look awfully good for...well...ramming...has there been any thought about this? (Without making the ship explode, actually.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 29, 2011, 07:22:23 am
Since FS2 ships explode from the middle outwards, that would actually make a nice scripted sequence, were a Nara smashes through some other ship and comes out, battered but alive on the other side.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 29, 2011, 07:30:47 am
I could...imagine it out the top of my head actually.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2011, 07:32:00 am
Well, I guess the Blade Itself wasn't very complicated to FRED, since most the goodies are done via scripts...

Totally incorrect. TBI has some extremely complex FREDding, like the capship ETS system, all the ship's abilities (jamming, repair, the menus), so on. I'd say less than half of the cool stuff in the mission is done via scripting.

The Blade Itself was probably on par with Delenda Est in terms of being tricky. Less brute force but more elegance and complexity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 29, 2011, 07:58:08 am
Since FS2 ships explode from the middle outwards, that would actually make a nice scripted sequence, were a Nara smashes through some other ship and comes out, battered but alive on the other side.
So...I actually did it. (http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww286/TSADestiny/Rammingspeed.jpg) The Nara came in a bit too early though but...you get it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on March 29, 2011, 08:15:12 am
I would expect them to use it for gas mining and the like. There's nothing really inhabitable about Venus or anything around it.

Actually... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Venus#Aerostat_habitats_and_floating_cities)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 29, 2011, 10:45:32 am
So...I actually did it. (http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww286/TSADestiny/Rammingspeed.jpg) The Nara came in a bit too early though but...you get it.

Hahahaha Awesome. Plus, I'm really digging the optimized ships, guys. I think that color scheme suits the Nara more. Cant wait to see the Karuna.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 29, 2011, 11:27:40 am
Ahh, missed the nod on the Solaris poster. Lance Henriksen still has my vote for Admiral Byrne.

So...I actually did it. (http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww286/TSADestiny/Rammingspeed.jpg) The Nara came in a bit too early though but...you get it.

The lighting on those makes them look really unattractive. I'll bet the sexed up Nara will look much better in that pic, hopefully along with the nuDeimos with the next release of the MVPs in the distant future. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 29, 2011, 11:40:08 am
Totally. Although I think mainly because I was so close to the ships...plus the explosions. Oh and, including the Nara firing it's cannons.


The optimized ships look...awfully reflective though, haha. Not that I don't like it, it's pretty cool.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 29, 2011, 11:48:43 am
Awsm collision pic is awsm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 29, 2011, 12:49:54 pm
I just realized that that was the front half of the Nara in that pic, meaning that poor Deimos got speared. :lol:

Though to be fair I'm quite glad that FS in general has averted that whole "ramming always works" BS.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on March 29, 2011, 05:52:03 pm
Well ramming never works when you just bounce off the hull. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 29, 2011, 06:07:51 pm
So I'm kind of slow and I'm very tired today, you'll excuse me if I'm saying gibberish, but isn't GTVA behavior shivan-like? I mean, unilateral war without warning, without justification (apart from we don't like you)? And if so, could we infer the reasons of the shivans' actions in FS1 and FS2 based upon the reasons of GTVA's actions?

It almost seems to me like a giant school lesson of pain and misery, one which all living beings must succeed in order to get somewhere? "We must teach them that pacifism won't work", says GTVA. "WeÊe♂ mVs┬ t£ach thÕse specÞÆs to defÊnd themselvês", say the shivans.

What a bloody mess. I should get to sleep. Oh, and Laporte gets on my nerves.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 29, 2011, 06:11:16 pm
Well, to be fair to the GTVA, as aggressive as this whole plan was, the original intention was to force the issue relatively peacefully. The war was never supposed to happen. So I get where you might be drawing the comparison, but I dont think it quite holds up.

Plus, I'm pretty sure "we dont like you" was never at the forefront of their reasoning.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 29, 2011, 06:13:04 pm
The GTVA has several good reasons for going to war with Earth.  Long story short, they believe conquering Earth is the only way to keep mankind able to fend off the next Shivan incursion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 29, 2011, 06:19:43 pm
Quote
Plus, I'm pretty sure "we dont like you" was never at the forefront of their reasoning.

Well GTVA doesn't like Ubuntu's politics, ideology, philosophy, the "irrationality" of the Elders, and so on, and so on. Might as well just say "I hate you, you sissy pacifistic commie little hippie bastards, ur gonna put all of us in danger!"

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 29, 2011, 06:31:49 pm
It isn't that they don't like Ubuntu, its that they don't believe that it can protect humanity accurately when Shivan Ragnarok rolls around. Whether or not they like it is completely irrelevant to their decision.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SD-Beast on March 29, 2011, 06:54:54 pm
Actually it is, read GTVI's report on Ubuntu. The Terran assembly despises Ubuntu because if it spread into GTVA systems, terran's would flock to the UEF because of it. Basically, unchecked spread of Ubuntu would severely undermine the Terran Assembly's power. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 29, 2011, 07:07:33 pm
Yes, thereby, in their minds, undermining Humanity's ability to defend itself from the Shivans, as was stated above. The argument isn't whether they like it or not, the argument is that the GTVA's more personal feeling about Ubuntu were irrelevant in the face of all the great logical reasons they could subjugate Earth.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 29, 2011, 07:42:46 pm
They don't like it because it "undermines Humanity's ability to defend itself from the Shivans, as was stated above". :D

Do you want a map?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 29, 2011, 07:49:51 pm
Exactly. They have a reason. Not simply "We Dont Like You."

I believe I have completed your map sir. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on March 29, 2011, 09:44:42 pm
Even though Ubuntu's current plan of "attack" is based on the ramblings and hallucinations of people of questionable mental status.  I mean seriously, it's like they've been listening to the Chaos Gods and are performing the feint of feints to lure more skulls in for Khorne or something.

BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!  SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!
(although, honestly, I like the Eldar and the Orks better.  Dem Spikey Boyz iz whacko!)
Disclaimer: This post was meant as comedy and in no way reflects the actual point of Nagari in the plot)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 29, 2011, 10:04:03 pm
What is Ubuntu? (http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/)
Quote from: Why Are We at War?
The Ubuntu Party cannot function in an open universe. It is an artifact of the unique conditions of post-Isolation Sol. All its enlightenment and sophisticated modeling cannot account for the presence of hostile, xenocidal aliens.

Ubuntu has no answer for the Shivans. It relies on a universe in which all living beings can, in the long term, be persuaded to cooperate through market and psychological forces.

Additionally, conditions in the GTVA are ripe for the spread of the Ubuntu ideology. We consider the philosophical positions of the Ubuntu Party to be a threat to the preservation of the human species. We must move rapidly to contain this threat and organize a gradated return of Sol to legitimate GTVA authority. GTVI has already prepared a program to absorb and learn from Ubuntu's social engineering projects. The Ubuntu Elders will be socially isolated and gradually discredited.

Under the Titan Accords, the governments of Jupiter, Mars and Earth are members of the Galactic Terran Alliance, and bound by their treaty obligations so long as an external threat exists.

Lastly see REDACTED.

EDIT:

The Security Counsel has no problem with the UEF, or the idea of Ubuntu, within the context of a Shivan free world.
Quote
Once the military phase of our operations in Sol are complete, we will face the task of integrating and governing a population larger than that of the entire GTVA, rousing their society to meet the challenges of perpetual near-extinction. This transition will be difficult, but it is also necessary for human survival. The marginalization of the Ubuntu Party is an uncomfortable necessity, but if the past fifty years have made one thing clear to us, it is that we must never flinch from the exigencies of survival.

Super late EDIT:

Also, in the fiction, it's strongly hinted that the GTVA has deeper reasons for going to war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 30, 2011, 12:46:36 am
Deeper reasons, eh...probably...they want Earth back. Even I do. When they...finally. Finally return to Earth...their homeworld...they meet someone who doesn't reciprocate them for blowing up the Lucifer. If not for the GTA-PVN/GTVA, the UEF wouldn't exist, Earth...wouldn't be there...it'll be the...apocalypse universe all over again...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 30, 2011, 12:57:03 am
I suspect the deeper reasons will involve Nagari, the Vishnans, or the Shivans directly

EDIT:

I hope that this, and Contingency MORPHEUS are touched on later.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 30, 2011, 03:06:47 am
Deeper reasons, eh...probably...they want Earth back. Even I do. When they...finally. Finally return to Earth...their homeworld...they meet someone who doesn't reciprocate them for blowing up the Lucifer. If not for the GTA-PVN/GTVA, the UEF wouldn't exist, Earth...wouldn't be there...it'll be the...apocalypse universe all over again...
Erm.... why should Earth be thankfull toward the GTVA for blowing up the Lucy? That was done mostly by the GTA (which was led by Earth) with one squad of Vasudans helping out.
If they should be thankfull to anyone, it is to those fighter and bomber pilots who actually did the blowing up. And those who survived ended up stranded in Sol (and according to rumors in the Fedayeen).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 30, 2011, 03:48:50 am
Because the GTA was the predecessor of the GTVA and the UEF should be thankful? Haha. Primarily because none of the ships sent to blow up the Lucifer entered from the Sol jumpnode. But I think Mars's point is more...well. Fitting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2011, 04:04:54 am
No. Predecessor = Came before. They are successors. Also, "they should be thankful"? That's like an american saying to a german, "We would really like a significant portion of your industrial output and we'd like you to abandon socialized medical care, because we liberated you in WW2. Oh, and we'll start shooting you if you don't."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 30, 2011, 04:37:38 am
Successor and predecessor, they're almost the same. Not that I really want to flesh out on it, but after losing Sol, and having Capella blown up, I'd think the GTVA would be ""We would really like a significant portion of your industrial output and we'd like you to abandon socialized medical care, because we liberated you in WW2. Oh, and we'll start shooting you if you don't."".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2011, 04:41:57 am
Quote from: Merriam-Webster
Definition of PREDECESSOR

1
: one that precedes; especially : a person who has previously occupied a position or office to which another has succeeded

Quote from: Merriam-Webster
Definition of SUCCESSOR

: one that follows; especially : one who succeeds to a throne, title, estate, or office

Yeah. Totally the same.

Also, I think you hit "Post" prematurely. You forgot to make a point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 30, 2011, 05:32:29 am
Yeah, must've hit the enter key when I was alt-tabbing. Doesn't matter though. I'm done with making points and stuff...there's food in the kitchen. Although, the UEF ships...there's this contractor with a 'threat' in it's name. Why that? It's...unique.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 30, 2011, 05:47:16 am
"Oxys-Ultor Threat Workshop" Probably like Lockheed Martin's "Skunk Works"  Advanced Development Programs. It's a dedicated project to develop an interceptor and interceptor weapons  would be my guess.

They developed the Kentauroi and Rapier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2011, 05:48:25 am
Also,  :v: reference.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 05:51:48 am
Actually it is, read GTVI's report on Ubuntu. The Terran assembly despises Ubuntu because if it spread into GTVA systems, terran's would flock to the UEF because of it. Basically, unchecked spread of Ubuntu would severely undermine the Terran Assembly's power. :)

^ This. I hate to draw parallels with RL conflicts but the GTVA's motives in Sol are similar to the US wanting to avoid the 'domino effect' of communism spreading in south Asia by invading Vietnam. Yes it's a totally different scenario, but it's a similar motive, out of a wide range of motives I'm sure. If Ubuntu were allowed to spread unchecked throughout GTVA systems they'd become irreversably pacifistic and unable to combat the Shivan threat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 06:00:20 am
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 30, 2011, 06:11:23 am
^ This. I hate to draw parallels with RL conflicts but the GTVA's motives in Sol are similar to the US wanting to avoid the 'domino effect' of communism spreading in south Asia by invading Vietnam. Yes it's a totally different scenario, but it's a similar motive, out of a wide range of motives I'm sure. If Ubuntu were allowed to spread unchecked throughout GTVA systems they'd become irreversably pacifistic and unable to combat the Shivan threat.
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

I think that 4 destroyers =/= Shivan armada.

Remember, the Sol system has around the same amount of available resources as the GTVA, and they've managed to build ~26 destroyers and escorts for all of them, with a rebellion, and another Shivan incursion during that time. 

In that same 50 years, the UEF has produced 3 destroyers, 35 odd frigates, and a whole crapton (between 60 and 80) of cruisers.

I'm not saying that the UEF isn't an extremely capable force, for its size. But if the Terran Assembly decided that they'd suddenly risk everything to take Sol, do you really think the UEF fleet would hold them at all? Now imagine that Sol gets invaded by 10 Sathanas Juggernaughts and escorts.

Which military has a realistic, if small, chance of stopping them?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2011, 06:29:26 am
Ahem. Consider this. The GTVA basically has one Battlegroup for each system. The UEF has the rough equivalent of five. In a system that has been cut off from everything. And that doesn't need that much of a military presence, not really. I mean, it's like trying to convince the american public that what they really need are five additional Carrier battlegroups. They're just surplus to requirement.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 06:31:46 am
Exactly. If you were trying to say that because the UEF has a smaller fleet than the GTVA, they can't resist to the Shivan, that's true but doesn't help much since the GTVA itself wouldn't resist to the Shivans either.

If you were trying to say that the UEF is militarily inferior to the GTVA, then yes they are, but they're nowhere near defenseless pacifists. They have a small fleet compared to the GTVA simply because they had nothing to defend themselves against besides the Gefs. Even with a comparatively small fleet, and a comparatively inferior technology overall, they managed to hold against two fully-armed battlegroups hardened by two wars, with a single fleet, which isn't a small feat for "pacifists", especially pacifists that haven't seen a war in 50 years.

Besides, it seems pretty obvious to me that if Ubuntu spreaded to the whole GTVA, now knowing the full extent of the Shivan threat, they would spend much more of their resources on the military front - even more than the already huge amount they spent while being completely isolated and having no threat to defend themselves against (three 3.5 km long destroyers and squadrons of freighter-sized fleet bombers aren't exactly what I'd call police and peace-keeping forces) - so the whole "Ubuntu would leave us defenseless" argument is pretty much retarded to me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 06:37:55 am
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

If you take the UEF's fleet and compare it to the industrial capacity of the Sol system it's relatively small, even though in actuality it's quite large. If you were to apply that same ratio of military to Ubuntu-ised GTVA systems they'd have very minimalist defences, certainly not enough to combat the Shivans.

They're pacifistic in the same sense that they aren't militaristic. Just because they have adapted to fight a hyper intense war in a single star system doesn't mean they have any sort of galactic-scale war fighting ability, at least not on par with what the GTVA has.

Ninja'ed. Surely the vast amount of shipping, Gef raids and the unlikely possiblity of Shivan invasion is justification for a navy at all? I still believe the UEF have a rather small force relatively speaking when compated to Sol's military potential. Doesn't change the fact that though relatively small it's still a large fleet.

Ninja'ed again. The GTVA has Sathanas-killing firepower on hand. You can argue that they're ultimately ineffective since the Shivans would inevitably win, but it doesn't change the fact that the GTVA is a much safer bet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 30, 2011, 06:45:04 am
Besides, it seems pretty obvious to me that if Ubuntu spreaded to the whole GTVA, now knowing the full extent of the Shivan threat, they would spend much more of their resources on the military front - even more than the already huge amount they spent while being completely isolated and having no threat to defend themselves against (three 3.5 km long destroyers and squadrons of freighter-sized fleet bombers aren't exactly what I'd call police and peace-keeping forces) - so the whole "Ubuntu would leave us defenseless" argument is pretty much retarded to me.
Really? It seems to me that the citizens of Sol would remember the fact that there are highly advanced xenocidal aliens sitting right outside their metaphorical doorstep. They don't know about the Sathanas fleet, but they do know the Shivans can use hitherto uncharted jump nodes, have weapons of immense power, and were prevented from destroying earth by the very last available squadron at the last second.

This seems like a good reason to keep building ships.
Ahem. Consider this. The GTVA basically has one Battlegroup for each system. The UEF has the rough equivalent of five. In a system that has been cut off from everything. And that doesn't need that much of a military presence, not really. I mean, it's like trying to convince the american public that what they really need are five additional Carrier battlegroups. They're just surplus to requirement.
IIRC GTA  has two battlegroups ~ 4 destroyers per system. The GTA systems of course are much less densely populated, and have much less infrastructure than Sol. The military output of the UEF in this light is not impressive.

I'm not saying that their ships aren't impressive and tactically diverse, I'm saying that no, they don't have the military power of the GTVA at all..

Buckshee said it better I think.



EDIT:

Oh, also, this whole "The Shivans would kill all anyway, so it doesn't matter" argument doesn't make a lot of sense either. Clearly 80 Sathani are going to steamroll everyone, but the more powerful the force, the bigger the assault they'll be able to hold off and the more people they'll be able to evacuate. The point of all that gear is to hold back Shivans, and who knows, maybe if you kill enough Sathani, they won't be able to make the next star go Supernova.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2011, 06:54:55 am
If you take the UEF's fleet and compare it to the industrial capacity of the Sol system it's relatively small, even though in actuality it's quite large. If you were to apply that same ratio of military to Ubuntu-ised GTVA systems they'd have very minimalist defences, certainly not enough to combat the Shivans.

Except that they didn't have that large a fleet because they didn't really need one. If the UEF were to cover the same territory as the GTVA, you bet they would do things differently.

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They're pacifistic in the same sense that they aren't militaristic. Just because they have adapted to fight a hyper intense war in a single star system doesn't mean they have any sort of galactic-scale war fighting ability, at least not on par with what the GTVA has.

You cannot make extrapolations on their probable behaviour based on their behaviour under very specific, unique circumstances.

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Ninja'ed. Surely the vast amount of shipping, Gef raids and the unlikely possiblity of Shivan invasion is justification for a navy at all? I still believe the UEF have a rather small force relatively speaking when compated to Sol's military potential. Doesn't change the fact that though relatively small it's still a large fleet.

Yes, but subspace is the great equalizer. Response time for warships responding to an emergency is on the order of a few minutes across the entire system. The police is never more than a few minutes away, being a robber is remarkably less fun that way.

Quote
Ninja'ed again. The GTVA has Sathanas-killing firepower on hand. You can argue that they're ultimately ineffective since the Shivans would inevitably win, but it doesn't change the fact that the GTVA is a much safer bet.

That's a different issue. The GTVA has beam tech, sure. The GTVA has corvette strike teams built around beam tech that can kill Destroyers in a heartbeat.
However, extrapolating what you see in the UEF across a hypothetical UEF that covers the entire GTVA is a very wrong thing to do.

Really? It seems to me that the citizens of Sol would remember the fact that there are highly advanced xenocidal aliens sitting right outside their metaphorical doorstep. They don't know about the Sathanas fleet, but they do know the Shivans can use hitherto uncharted jump nodes, have weapons of immense power, and were prevented from destroying earth by the very last available squadron at the last second.

Sure. That's why they have a massively oversized and overpowered fleet.

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IIRC GTA  has two battlegroups ~ 4 destroyers per system. The GTA systems of course are much less densely populated, and have much less infrastructure than Sol. The military output of the UEF in this light is not impressive.

GTVA (terran side) has a dozen systems, and 15 Battlegroups. So yeah, it's 1:1.25.

Quote
Oh, also, this whole "The Shivans would kill all anyway, so it doesn't matter" argument doesn't make a lot of sense either. Clearly 80 Sathani are going to steamroll everyone, but the more powerful the force, the bigger the assault they'll be able to hold off and the more people they'll be able to evacuate. The point of all that gear is to hold back Shivans, and who knows, maybe if you kill enough Sathani, they won't be able to make the next star go Supernova.

Assumes facts not in evidence. To wit, that 80 Saths form a hard upper limit for the Shivans. The basic problem with fighting shivans is that noone knows what their capabilities are. They're giant space fleas from nowhere, there is no way to measure what their logistical capabilities are.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 30, 2011, 07:03:26 am
Assumes facts not in evidence. To wit, that 80 Saths form a hard upper limit for the Shivans. The basic problem with fighting shivans is that noone knows what their capabilities are. They're giant space fleas from nowhere, there is no way to measure what their logistical capabilities are.

What other solutions are there?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2011, 07:06:40 am
There aren't many. It's just that the GTVA's fixation on shooting Shivans to glowy bits, while certainly helping to remove a few Shivans here or there, may not be the ultimate answer. It's basically like this, the GTVA thinks that shooting Shivans works, and that if you can shoot enough Shivans, they'll eventually stop coming. Which, given what we know about Shivan motivations and capabilities, is a deeply, deeply flawed but viscerally exciting way of doing business.

The GTVA's problem is that while they're excellent at shooting Shivans, they've subordinated every facet of their industry to, in one way or another, help shoot Shivans, to the detriment of research into other things that could be done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 07:07:53 am
That's a different issue. The GTVA has beam tech, sure. The GTVA has corvette strike teams built around beam tech that can kill Destroyers in a heartbeat.
However, extrapolating what you see in the UEF across a hypothetical UEF that covers the entire GTVA is a very wrong thing to do.
Exactly. If the GTVA had come peacefully and the Ubuntu had spread to the whole GTVA, the GTVA-Ubuntu would have the whole GTVA and UEF technology and assets at their disposal. So the technological gap becomes here totally irrelevant.

Quote
Assumes facts not in evidence. To wit, that 80 Saths form a hard upper limit for the Shivans. The basic problem with fighting shivans is that noone knows what their capabilities are. They're giant space fleas from nowhere, there is no way to measure what their logistical capabilities are.
That too. the GTVA knows from the 14th battlegroup records that they have at least one Gigas Dante-class superjuggernauth. We don't even know if the GTVA fleet could even slow down such a thing - the situation is pretty much lost with even a single Dante. Now, add the fact that we don't even know how many of them they would send against us, nor if they don't have ships even larger and more powerful, and you'll get the point.

What other solutions are there?
That's what WiH2 and BP3 will be about dear sir. Wait and see.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 07:16:22 am
Quote
Ninja'ed. Surely the vast amount of shipping, Gef raids and the unlikely possiblity of Shivan invasion is justification for a navy at all? I still believe the UEF have a rather small force relatively speaking when compated to Sol's military potential. Doesn't change the fact that though relatively small it's still a large fleet.

Yes, but subspace is the great equalizer. Response time for warships responding to an emergency is on the order of a few minutes across the entire system. The police is never more than a few minutes away, being a robber is remarkably less fun that way.

Alright, I'll agree that for it's stated job role the UEF navy is abnormally large and abnormally well-equipped. But taking into account the industrial capacity of Sol it could be several times larger still, but it isn't. If we're generous to a GTVA run by Ubuntu I can agree further and say they would adapt to the military needs accordingly, but they'd still have a much smaller overall fleet, because they simply aren't as militaristic as the GTVA. Contrasted against the Shivan threat that isn't a good thing.

If Ubuntu were to become the ruling power of humankind it would end up losing it's fundamental principles anyway. Just as you said it's a product of a very specific, very unique set of circumstances. Sol is a resource rich gem with only one major security issue (Gefs). Ubuntu isn't up to the task of governing more than a single star sytem, particularly several dozen, most of which are nowhere near as developed as Sol and have serious issues with security and poverty. I can't see a system of government ruling over a bunch of pampered kitten-lovers tackling the destitute wrecks of human colonies, it would surely collapse.

Ninja'ed thrice. Put down to brass tacks a Terran assembly led GTVA has a better chance of standing against the Shivans militarily than an Ubuntu led GTVA. I'm not saying the UEF can't fight Shivans I'm saying they won't fight them nearly as well or with nearly as many ships and personnel. Plus the aove reasons for poltical failure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2011, 07:32:19 am
If Ubuntu were to become the ruling power of humankind it would end up losing it's fundamental principles anyway. Just as you said it's a product of a very specific, very unique set of circumstances. Sol is a resource rich gem with only one major security issue (Gefs). Ubuntu isn't up to the task of governing more than a single star sytem, particularly several dozen, most of which are nowhere near as developed as Sol and have serious issues with security and poverty. I can't see a system of government ruling over a bunch of pampered kitten-lovers tackling the destitute wrecks of human colonies, it would surely collapse.

Ubuntu has gotten Sol out of a large economic and social crash following the node collapse. Saying that they wouldn't be up to the task of administrating a large interstellar community ignores several key points about Ubuntu, namely that one of its core principles is to never stop questioning their methods and altering them swiftly and decisively if they turn out to be rubbish.

Quote
Ninja'ed thrice. Put down to brass tacks a Terran assembly led GTVA has a better chance of standing against the Shivans militarily than an Ubuntu led GTVA. I'm not saying the UEF can't fight Shivans I'm saying they won't fight them nearly as well or with nearly as many ships and personnel. Plus the aove reasons for poltical failure.

Again, you are extrapolating. We don't know how the UEF would react if they were in the GTVA's shoes, assuming that they'd basically do the same thing that they did on Earth is fundamentally flawed.

Also, you keep saying that the UEF spends less on its military than the GTVA does. Fair enough, it's true, they do do that. There's a parallel here between the EU and the US. America spends billions on its military, while the countries spend a proportionately smaller amount. Now, Americans keep saying that us euro types can only afford to do so because of their spending. Which might be true. However, it may also be wrong. There is no way for us to know for certain.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2011, 07:39:55 am
Hem. May I please remind dev team members not to take sides too strongly. Players are encouraged to have their own opinions on the war and the strength of the two sides.  ;)

And I do want to note that the Ubuntu socioeconomic models honed in Sol would not translate well to every system of the GTVA. There's significant risk of an administrative 'crash' in scaling up like that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 07:56:56 am
Ubuntu has gotten Sol out of a large economic and social crash following the node collapse. Saying that they wouldn't be up to the task of administrating a large interstellar community ignores several key points about Ubuntu, namely that one of its core principles is to never stop questioning their methods and altering them swiftly and decisively if they turn out to be rubbish.

Very true, but that was several years in the past. The UEF as it stands in the present (i.e. the future :P) is governing over a fairly stable, fairly porsperous system. They'd have to adapt significantly to tackle the issues in impoverished human colonies, which are used to years of Terran assembly heavy-handedness and not Ubuntu's softer touch.

Also, you keep saying that the UEF spends less on its military than the GTVA does. Fair enough, it's true, they do do that. There's a parallel here between the EU and the US. America spends billions on its military, while the countries spend a proportionately smaller amount. Now, Americans keep saying that us euro types can only afford to do so because of their spending. Which might be true. However, it may also be wrong. There is no way for us to know for certain.

Again a true point, I'm not saying however that I know for certainty how such and such would pan out, it's simply an opinion, one I believe to be the most accurate but could easily be wrong.

Your example is a much different scenario though, the US has interests al over the globe to 'defend' and it's military has always traditionally been a political weight as much as a fighting force. We don't have the same amount of support for our militaries as they do, speaking in general of course. I could probably argue that the US could likely achieve it's standing deployments and it's operations with half the force it does now, a lot's to be said for a country having a big military especially when talking to other countries.

The GTVA has a large fleet because it's a part of their deal: we'll keep you safe and we'll do it because we have a lot of ships. Even if the populace knows it's now bullsh*t it's still a lot to know that there's an armada waiting to tackle the Shivans should they ever come knocking again. With the smaller forces an Ubuntu-GTVA would likely field the effect on the populace wouldn't be there.

Hem. May I please remind dev team members not to take sides too strongly. Players are encouraged to have their own opinions on the war and the strength of the two sides.  ;)

And I do want to note that the Ubuntu socioeconomic models honed in Sol would not translate well to every system of the GTVA. There's significant risk of an administrative 'crash' in scaling up like that.

Ninja'ed. That's the thing though you really can't take any side strongly at all, it's grey on grey after all. I still symapthise for the UEF if only for their much fairer, much kinder Ubuntu than the Terran Assemly's muscle flexing.

EDIT: Spelling Ubuntu like Ubunut is really easy to do.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 30, 2011, 08:28:45 am
Hem. May I please remind dev team members not to take sides too strongly. Players are encouraged to have their own opinions on the war and the strength of the two sides.  ;)

And I do want to note that the Ubuntu socioeconomic models honed in Sol would not translate well to every system of the GTVA. There's significant risk of an administrative 'crash' in scaling up like that.
Ubuntu-led GTVA would be further compounded by dumb/annoying people like the Command guy head ani, especially. And Byrne, to a lesser extent. But your second point is what I quite relate to.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 01:14:59 pm
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.

Plus, Jupiter is hardly full of pacifists.  That's 1st fleet, which didn't do much until the beginning of R1.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2011, 01:19:42 pm
Yeah, of course. Pacifists that have managed to resist to the GTVA ultra-advanced might for 18 months with a third of their forces. Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly

Well, I'm not sure that's clear. It certainly would have been a lot more bloody, but there were a lot of ways things could have gone wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 30, 2011, 01:24:17 pm
Well, I'm not sure that's clear. It certainly would have been a lot more bloody, but there were a lot of ways things could have gone wrong.

Thats the nature of all warfare. As I see it, Severanti had a reasonable advantage there for a few weeks and he should have taken the initiative. Granted, this is hindsight talking, but I doubt he would've done any more damage to Earth's infrastructure then Steele did with his total war stance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 01:25:01 pm
Okay, I'll rephrase it to say "The war would have been over one way or another."  Either Earth would fall, or GTVA public support would evaporate.

Still, point remains that the main reason the buildup to WiH took 18 months is because Severanti adopted a cautious, relatively low intensity stratagem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 01:32:54 pm
Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.
And why do you think he had to adopt this stance ? That's because he got his battlegroup *****slapped in the face when he rushed to Neptune, thinking he was going to battle pacifists.

Severanti may be cautious, but Steele in his position wouldn't have been able to defeat 3 full fleets with a mere two battlegroups composed of Capella-era ships either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2011, 01:34:12 pm
Okay, I'll rephrase it to say "The war would have been over one way or another."  Either Earth would fall, or GTVA public support would evaporate.

Still, point remains that the main reason the buildup to WiH took 18 months is because Severanti adopted a cautious, relatively low intensity stratagem.

Sure, but the strategic realities made that a pretty good option. He cleared the underbrush, so to speak. Rushing in would have been a frightening prospect.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 01:37:01 pm
Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.
And why do you think he had to adopt this stance ? That's because he got his battlegroup *****slapped in the face when he rushed to Neptune, thinking he was going to battle pacifists.

Severanti may be cautious, but Steele in his position wouldn't have been able to defeat 3 full fleets with a mere two battlegroups composed of Capella-era ships either.

He lost one, count it, ONE Deimos at Neptune.  The UEF lost two Karunas and four Sancti.  That rate of attrition is immensely favorable to the GTVA, considering that Deimos are rather plentiful in the GTVA battlegroups.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 01:37:51 pm
Okay, I'll rephrase it to say "The war would have been over one way or another."  Either Earth would fall, or GTVA public support would evaporate.

Still, point remains that the main reason the buildup to WiH took 18 months is because Severanti adopted a cautious, relatively low intensity stratagem.

Had 1st and 2nd Fleets gotten off their collective ar*ses they might even have pushed Sevveranti back through the node. Conversely had Steele been in charge from the outset he may very well have sent Calder reeling far in advance of R1. It is as you say though: hindsight. We can go back and say we should've rolled up armour before dropping paratroopers during Op Market Garden, but we didn't and WWII lasted for another year.

Holy hell, ninja'ed x3.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 30, 2011, 01:40:16 pm
Recalling from the BP website about the Ubuntu, UEF and etc etc., I think there are several reasons Severanti took it slowly. I think the 'suddenly being thrust into Sol in the midst of confusion' was the GTVA 4th Fleet, so that...isn't Severanti...hmm.

What's around Neptune anyway? What happened? Losing two Karunas and four Sanctus cruisers for a single Deimos?


Wow insane ninjaing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2011, 01:41:50 pm
Nobody ever remembers that Severanti deliberately did not engage in high intensity combat.  If he did, the war would have been over quickly, and Earth's infrastructure would have been destroyed at far greater cost to both sides.
And why do you think he had to adopt this stance ? That's because he got his battlegroup *****slapped in the face when he rushed to Neptune, thinking he was going to battle pacifists.

Severanti may be cautious, but Steele in his position wouldn't have been able to defeat 3 full fleets with a mere two battlegroups composed of Capella-era ships either.

He lost one, count it, ONE Deimos at Neptune.  The UEF lost two Karunas and four Sancti.  That rate of attrition is immensely favorable to the GTVA, considering that Deimos are rather plentiful in the GTVA battlegroups.

Yeah, but he got pretty close to losing his flagship, which wouldn't have been favorable at all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 01:44:10 pm
Holy jeezus, can't you wait for me to edit my posts before rushing with 5 more ?

He lost one, count it, ONE Deimos at Neptune.  The UEF lost two Karunas and four Sancti.  That rate of attrition is immensely favorable to the GTVA, considering that Deimos are rather plentiful in the GTVA battlegroups.
You don't retreat for loosing a single corvette. If Severanti lost First Neptune, it's because the UEF defeated him, and his whole battlegroup and fighter complement probably took a good beating in the process.

The thing is, he lost against what the GTVA was considering until then as defenseless pacifists. Given the strength ratio between the UEF and his forces, he nearly HAD to engage himself into a war of attrition until the GTVA could deploy more forces.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 01:49:02 pm
If you read the fiction again (and I don't mean to imply you haven't), he retreats for effectively two reasons.  1) Yes, his flagship had taken a beating, and 2) his fighter cover was shredded.  Neither of those, however, is tantamount to a *****slapping defeat.  I'm fairly certain, although you could probably turn up some argument, that Severanti would have decisively taken Neptune had he stayed the field.

Remember too that the entire 16th Battlegroup was waiting in reserve.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2011, 01:49:57 pm
Well bear in mind that Uriels carry Jackhammer torpedoes and that gunships were explicitly close-assaulting his Hecate, which usually means ripping up subsystems. I'd say he was in serious danger of losing his flag.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 01:50:57 pm
Have you got a link to the video for Severanti's Neptune op? Or maybe even the mission itself? (Damn no puppydog eyes smiley)

EDIT: Nvm found the video on youtube, thanks anyway Scotty.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 01:52:16 pm
The withdrawal of a Hecate from the field is hardly an overwhelming loss of firepower on the Tev side, but I'll concede that his flag quitting the field was a good idea.  I'm just not convinced that the rest of the 13th, perhaps reinforced by the 16th, would have lost or even been effectively slowed by any resistance around Neptune.

@Buckshee:  Battle of Neptune (the mission) was never really completed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 01:57:44 pm
For the vid, there you go (http://www.myvideo.de/watch/7097901/First_Battle_of_Neptune_Freespace_2_Blue_Planet) (first Google match)

Well, granted, Hecates suck, but without your command ship and your fighter cover, there is only so much you can do against an enemy who has already overwhelmed your position.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 02:04:22 pm
I think we disagree on the "Already overwhelmed" part of the argument.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2011, 02:06:06 pm
RACE FOR PAGE 100YES!****
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 02:08:32 pm
Well, "killed one of your Deimos", "fighter cover shredded", "close-assaulting your flagship" and "destroying all of its subsystems" are more than enough to call a "all your positions are belong to us" situation.

Also, W00T at ttuta.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 02:17:50 pm
Wow, that was the first mission I've ever seen in FS that made the Hecate look really cool. The vid cuts out after 5 mins though, what happened next?

Oh and if we ever see pre-R1 WiH missions is there a version of the Nara without artillery? I couldn't help noticing it still had cannons in the vid.

Damn Battuta, you're like an epileptic kid chasing a train.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 03:09:22 pm
Well, "killed one of your Deimos", "fighter cover shredded", "close-assaulting your flagship" and "destroying all of its subsystems" are more than enough to call a "all your positions are belong to us" situation.

Also, W00T at ttuta.

In light of crippling capship losses on the UEF side, and the entirely applicable (if possibly harmful) We Have Reserves capability of the GTVA, I don't think it's enough to call it.

And yes, woot at tutta. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on March 30, 2011, 03:11:59 pm
There are some missions, I want to play...battle for Neptune and Saras Helios are included:)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 03:15:48 pm
Battle of Neptune might get revisited/finished if enough people want it bad enough (don't quote me on that.  It's Dilmah's mission).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 03:19:55 pm
In light of crippling capship losses on the UEF side, and the entirely applicable (if possibly harmful) We Have Reserves capability of the GTVA, I don't think it's enough to call it.
I don't think the GTVA had much more reserves to commit at this point. Remember the GTVA forces on the field were about half those in WiH, and that the UEF was still in A1-supar shape. If any, it's the UEF who would be in the We Have Reserves situation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 30, 2011, 03:22:32 pm
In light of crippling capship losses on the UEF side, and the entirely applicable (if possibly harmful) We Have Reserves capability of the GTVA, I don't think it's enough to call it.
I don't think the GTVA had much more reserves to commit at this point. Remember the GTVA forces on the field were about half those in WiH, and that the UEF was still in A1-supar shape. If any, it's the UEF who would be in the We Have Reserves situation.
Err... According to Post Meridian, the GTVA had "two dozen" destroyers, of which only 5 (Hood, Meridian, Carthage, Imperieuse, Atreus) were actually deployed in Sol.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 03:25:17 pm
Err... What's your point ? The GTVA had only two destroyers in Sol at that time (Requiem and Meridian IIRC), Vs the four they had in WiH.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 30, 2011, 03:26:48 pm
My point being they have reserves out of Sol?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 03:27:19 pm
And what do you want to do with reserves out of Sol to help in a battle that takes place inside Sol ?

The UEF had all its forces at an intrasystem jump away, aka a few minutes away aside from the prep time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 30, 2011, 03:28:26 pm
And what do you want to do with reserves out of Sol to help in a battle that takes place inside Sol ?
They're called "reserves" for a reason. Presumably because they are reserves. Being held in reserve.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 03:28:41 pm
The big difference is the political availability of extra forces to the Tevs.  A new Deimos or three can be sortied through the gate with little fuss, it seems.  Sending a FrigRon from 1st Fleet to support 3rd Fleet and militia elements is both much less likely to happen, and decidedly more of a political move, with all the disadvantages (and, granted, sometimes advantages) that entails.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 03:30:01 pm
Besides which, nearly all other UEF capital ship forces are vitally needed to defend other pieces of real estate at that point.  Namely, Jupiter, Earth, Mars, the entirety of the shipyards at any and all of those, and other installations around the system.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on March 30, 2011, 03:30:39 pm
Battle of Neptune might get revisited/finished if enough people want it bad enough (don't quote me on that.  It's Dilmah's mission).
Just watched the vid...every time the missiles locked on, the vid paused, because I hit the trigger^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 03:36:15 pm
They're called "reserves" for a reason. Presumably because they are reserves. Being held in reserve.
... soooo, if you keep them in reserve in a position where they won't be able to join the battle until at least half an hour, how does that help the Meridian's battlegroup to hold First Neptune after its flagship was forced to flee and its fighter complement was wiped out ?

Besides which, nearly all other UEF capital ship forces are vitally needed to defend other pieces of real estate at that point.  Namely, Jupiter, Earth, Mars, the entirety of the shipyards at any and all of those, and other installations around the system.
Well, first, with the small amount of Tev forces in Sol, those assets didn't required as much protection back then as they did during WiH. Second, why would you want to send capital ships to get beamraped out when you can just send fighters, with superior design, to wipe the enemy fighter cover, that still lack the combat experience against the superior UEF designs, and then Uriels to finish the capships off ? Because that's in a nutshell what happened.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 30, 2011, 03:37:03 pm
The big difference is the political availability of extra forces to the Tevs.  A new Deimos or three can be sortied through the gate with little fuss, it seems.  Sending a FrigRon from 1st Fleet to support 3rd Fleet and militia elements is both much less likely to happen, and decidedly more of a political move, with all the disadvantages (and, granted, sometimes advantages) that entails.

And it's more of a case of the UEF not knowing exactly if such Deimos, hell even more Hecates or Raynors, are en route or not, and they have to calculate their tactical risks with this big unknown variable lurking in the dark.

In such a scenario, it is much more intelligent to play the kind of "hedgehog tactic" that, for instance, Kasparov used in his first game against Deep Blue (where he actually raped the computer to smithereens). That is, keep astonishing "low ball", concentrate your resources and keep movement to the minimum possible way, deep back at the defense. Only when you see a deep clearance far ahead in the moves, you go for the kill.

Curious. As I think of it a little better, this WiH war is very analogous to blind chess, with one side having less pieces sure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 30, 2011, 03:57:58 pm
They're called "reserves" for a reason. Presumably because they are reserves. Being held in reserve.
... soooo, if you keep them in reserve in a position where they won't be able to join the battle until at least half an hour, how does that help the Meridian's battlegroup to hold First Neptune after its flagship was forced to flee and its fighter complement was wiped out ?
My point was that the GTVA had reserves, not that they were actually being useful. Was simply stating that the GTVA had a lot more reserves than the UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 04:02:30 pm
And it's more of a case of the UEF not knowing exactly if such Deimos, hell even more Hecates or Raynors, are en route or not, and they have to calculate their tactical risks with this big unknown variable lurking in the dark.
Again, if they are on the other side of the node, they won't be of much help in current battles. The time required to jump through the node, recharge drives (spring jump drives were even rarer back then than in WiH, and the UEF probably didn't even know about em) and jump to the battle field is long enough for the battle to be over and debris cold.

So, for the UEF, the only thing they have to worry about tactically are ships in-system.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 30, 2011, 04:04:49 pm
Of which there was an entire extra battlegroup already in theater. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 04:19:59 pm
Wth were the UEF doing during those 18 months? Surely they could've evicted Severanti once they had the intel and combat ready ships? Two battlegroups are hardly a match for an armada of 30+ frigates, even if those battlegroups are manned by fine, well endowed GTVA personnel.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2011, 04:25:46 pm
Maybe, but any offensive would open territory the UEF couldn't afford to lose, would place their ships firmly on the board and open to counterattack. And the node's right there, with a great deal of GTVA might on the other side, ready to slip through and strike at exposed weaknesses.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 04:31:23 pm
As was debated on the former Warship inflation thread, the UEF can't really hold the node if it ever manages to gain control of it. Besides, sending reserve ships to support a raging battle where half the enemy forces are already committed, like at Neptune, and using those same assets to attack a well fortified position are totally different tactical situations.

Pounding the Meridian to death at Neptune probably didn't require many assets, half a dozen full wings from the Toutatis and Jovian stations would be enough to shred the already softened fighter cover and score good hits on some capital hulls.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 30, 2011, 04:32:44 pm
Pounding the Meridian to death at Neptune probably didn't require many assets, half a dozen full wings from the Toutatis and Jovian stations would be enough to shred the fighter cover and score good hits on some capital hulls.
Also, the Meridian's fighters had no idea what to expect. Probably didn't even know what hit 'em.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 30, 2011, 04:42:11 pm
Exactly. We're at an very early stage of the war, where the GTVA, besides their early tapping into UEF public channels, still knows little of the capabilities of the UEF, and expects more or less to fight happy space hippies that don't know how to use their outdated guns. They really fell from high that day.

That was true for the UEF too, as they probably didn't fully debriefed the 14th battlegroup defectors yet, but still had data from the Renjian encounter and the early 3rd fleet charge against the 14th. They hadn't fully adapted their tactics against beamrape yet, which is why they lost 2 frigates, but they knew enough to riposte with fighter rape and win - or at least not loose - the day.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 30, 2011, 05:03:51 pm
Come to think of it that first engagement at Neptune is a good portrayal (spelling?) of what would happen, seeing as how the outcome was ultimately indecisive.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on March 30, 2011, 06:54:27 pm
If it matters, I threw together a impromtu unscripted sic em mission with a Karuna, a Solaris and some crusiers vs. a single sath with beams off.

I dunno if it was shockwaves or what, but the solaris went up like a roman candle at 48 minutes and the karuna followed suit 30 minutes later(though this could have been collision damage from the crusiers).  The Sath was at 51%.  I honestly would have had more Karuna's since that would have been more representative of a UEF attack group, but 3 were grinding FRED down to single fps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 31, 2011, 03:07:27 am
Did your Solaris even fire at the Sath? I remember staging a similar mission with my Solaris refusing to fire, no matter what I did, untill I replaced it's torpedoes with the Narayana variants. It still wouldn't fire it's gattlers though.
And one Karuna was killed by friendly fire if I remember correctly, but the others took down the Sath.... except the one that ended up stumbling in front of the Sath (yes, I left it's beams intact). Took them forever to kill that leviathan.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 31, 2011, 03:18:56 am
Battle of Neptune might get revisited/finished if enough people want it bad enough (don't quote me on that.  It's Dilmah's mission).
Just to clear things up on this front, the mission itself is actually in a completed state, however this was before Furian AI was adopted, so what's needed is about a weekend or so on my part to sit here in my underwear and rebalance the mission for the new AI. Might buy myself a case of coca-cola and try it soon, actually. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on March 31, 2011, 03:21:25 am
A lot of things have changed since then and stuff has been added, like armor types which you could use too.

Edit: Oh and I think your mission features Narayana, which was fluffed in tech description to have been retrofitted to its current form after the hostilities started. Which would make it improbable for artillery configuration to be used in the Neptune mission. So either that ship needs to be replaced or somehow alternate model without big guns acquired.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on March 31, 2011, 03:23:41 am
Nope, the Solaris just swam right up to it, disgorging torpedoes as soon as she got in range.  I might try the same thing except with waypoints and make a merry chase of it.  Though why a Sath would run from a destroy 3 frigates and a half dozen cruisers is beyond me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on March 31, 2011, 03:31:05 am
A lot of things have changed since then and stuff has been added, like armor types which you could use too.

Edit: Oh and I think your mission features Narayana, which was fluffed in tech description to have been retrofitted to its current form after the hostilities started. Which would make it improbable for artillery configuration to be used in the Neptune mission. So either that ship needs to be replaced or somehow alternate model without big guns acquired.
Okay, I'll write that down for when I find the time to sit down and work it all out. Armour types will be very, very, helpful.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on March 31, 2011, 06:04:06 am
COuld be useful indeed in BP: spectrum of war...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2011, 07:43:11 am
Just swap the Narayana's main guns out in FRED.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 31, 2011, 10:39:23 am
Hmm, I'm curious. Why doesn't the GTVA do EMP strikes as well? It could very well mess with a lot of people and doing a EMP strike along with bombing run would seriously mess up capital ships. (And a general annoyance to players)

I got this idea when my Raynor, for some reason, fired a spread of EMP missiles off it's bow, like saturation fire. It looked pretty...cool. Especially when I watched a Narayana's missiles just...stop in mid-space.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2011, 10:41:37 am
EMP strikes were in several missions but were removed because they're really annoying for players.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on March 31, 2011, 10:55:41 am
Isn't EMP the point to annoy? Odd...must be really effective as a psychological warfare weapon. I won't press on.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 31, 2011, 10:57:48 am
Isn't EMP the point to annoy? Odd...must be really effective as a psychological warfare weapon. I won't press on.
Yeah, but annoying isn't fun. And games are supposed to be fun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2011, 10:58:00 am
Isn't EMP the point to annoy? Odd...must be really effective as a psychological warfare weapon. I won't press on.

No, they literally make the game unplayable and break player mission experience by rendering key messages unreadable.

Putting Morningstar turrets on every capship would be super effective but it's annoying as hell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on March 31, 2011, 11:12:11 am
Putting Morningstar turrets on every capship would be super effective but it's annoying as hell.

Oh God Inferno flashbacks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 31, 2011, 12:04:25 pm
Battle of Neptune might get revisited/finished if enough people want it bad enough (don't quote me on that.  It's Dilmah's mission).
Just to clear things up on this front, the mission itself is actually in a completed state, however this was before Furian AI was adopted, so what's needed is about a weekend or so on my part to sit here in my underwear and rebalance the mission for the new AI. Might buy myself a case of coca-cola and try it soon, actually. :)

Can I put in a request for the Chimeras and Bellerophons in mission be changed to Deimos/Diomedes?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 31, 2011, 12:25:26 pm
Yeah that would make more sense...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 31, 2011, 01:10:36 pm
But then the Nara would probably kill stuff quicker if the Chimera destroying it is changed to a Deimos or Diomedes...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 31, 2011, 01:16:29 pm
That's probably fixable, and Diomedes can kill things only marginally slower than a Chimera- it just needs to be positioned with its target *above* it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 31, 2011, 01:40:23 pm
There's no issue putting a Chimera or a Belle there if you really want.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on March 31, 2011, 01:52:10 pm
I think Scotty had plans for most of the ships in the battlegroup though, and having these guys there would mess stuff up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 31, 2011, 02:14:49 pm
It could be that Chimeras and Bellerophons have been much more widely produced than the seven or eight we've seen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 01, 2011, 07:26:23 pm
So I finally ended BP: WiH. It was not until recently that I had a machine that could even run it to the bitter end and now that I have it, I still have to deal with huge fps downtimes in Delenda Est, even if I downgrade graphics.... which is something of a crime given the aesthetic beauty of that whole battle.

Now my review.

Spoiler:
I started the campaign with little patience to read the personnal logs, although I began to regret it halfway the campaign. These texts really put the missions in context, and so I might have missed some key elements to the plot in the start.

In the first missions I was already hating my own avatar. It's somewhat irritating to see "yourself" uttering silliness from this ubuntu cocky fighter who seemed to come out directly from some self-centering education program bubble. If FreeSpace 2 was about how "you" didn't matter *at all* in the grand scheme of things, in BP:WiH you start off as not mattering *at all* while acting as if you really are the center of the universe. The peak of facepalming is the moment when Laporte sings victory, minutes after seeing admiral Steele beamraping a whole station to smithereens. Even if one doesn't know anything more about the war, clearly it was out of place, Laporte still had a lot to learn.

Fortunately, she did. Her attitude gets tolerable further down the campaign and it is actually downgraded a bit, at the same time the player starts to make an observable dent, and so some cockyness starts being justified.

I ended the campaign liking her.

The whole campaign breathes astonished polish detail in every level. First, it made me feel for the characters for the first time in FS2. This was something that not even BP:AoA managed to do, nor any other campaign (like Derelict). Characters had depth and, more importantly, had an arc. The romance between Simms and Laporte was more than decorational, and the last declaration was both beautiful and terrifying, giving Simms death. I can only wonder how much will Laporte go full insane, or if she passes through some kind of shock reset, helped by the Fedayeen (and the Elders?) and becomes some sort of Justicar that will blow GTVA to ashes all by herself.

Secondly, the ships are beautiful and used to their full strategic potential. The contrast between the "beamrapers" and the "missileoverwhelmers" strategy made good chess moves in the screen, as if a side had two knights trying to beat two bishops.

Third, the whole campaign has an arc to it, and hits the right spots in each moment. For instance, in the beggining, UEF is still trying to not lose too much. Gets a beating in Earth, and then Laporte is transfered to a different unit who will do things rogueish. And they start to kick ass. And right at the end where we would really close the arc with a joyous bang.... we get a real punch in the stomach. And it feels right.

Fourth, it is diverse. I never got bored. I even thought I was going to be very bored in the moon's mission, but alas I wasn't. Very detailed and complex missions that are always surprising you with novelties.

To the answers polled. (At last you boring dolt!)

I identify with Federation. But I do respect GTVA, and I'm not as shocked by its amorality as I felt the campaign was pushing me to be.
I used multiple checkpoints. I'm a bad player. Checkpoints are a big help ;).
Called the bluff. Way more intense ;).
Darkest Hour was right, I guess. I didn't repeat the mission, but then again I don't ever play on hard (I play for fun on my laptop over my lap).
What do you mean "let Xinny and Zero shoot me down"? Is that a choice or a failure? Hehe.
I failed first Simms conversation, since I couldn't ever have her say what I actually wanted. The problem: I didn't read the briefing words carefully enough. Once I said "what the hell, let's try full blown escalation", it all went well. Ah.
Nyx? What Nyx? :P
I don't remember Aristeia's pointbuy.
I was both shocked, appalled and thinking "what a great move, you asshole Steele". And when Vasudans arrived, it quickly escalated to "what a ****ing bastardly genious, now I want to kill you". So, there, great great script. At first I was unconvinced that the Vasudans were that "stupid" to believe in such a strange suggestion by Steele. Consider: why wouldn't Steele try to boycott this reunion? That would be only logical. Why would the Vasudan take his advice seriously? Why wouldn't he consider the evidence that UEF tried to put on the table? A little stretched, but it passed on my BS detector.
Delenda Est isn't hard. It isn't hard when its frame rates are above 15. It's a ****ing great mission, and reminded me of the last mission of Inferno, in its basic structure (objective: kill the background battleship, but before you have to kill the cruiser screens and the bomber waves, with warping-in cruisers to go for the kill). There are obvious differences. Delenda Est isn't exactly a BoE, and it was full of incredible tactics. The last appearance of the Imperieuse really surprised me.


Can't wait for BP:WiH2.  :yes:

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2011, 07:42:16 pm
Yay! Glad you liked it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 03, 2011, 06:22:09 pm
Just replaying AoA...Concerning Noemi Laporte and her conection with the shivans...
In the mission where you have to protect the vishnan ships against a Moloch, sveral cruisers and strikecraft, there are several containers and after playing Vasagos Dirge I'm very sceptical towards unscanned containers...
After scanning you get the folloing lines, ordered by the numbers:

SAC 3  6: He Waits in the cooling ruin
SAC 3  7: For a daughter made out of war
SAC 3  8: Brothers! Brothers! Paramatma!
SAC 3  9: Why are you so cold?
SAC 3 44: You look to the walls and works
SAC 3 45: We dance in the garden of life
SAC 3 46: You look for the one from many
SAC 3 47: We look for the one above all.

Well paramatma is something like ... consciousness merging with the highest self...well, I don't quite get it, so maybe someone could search Wikipedia, Brahman is mentioned there as well.^^

Theory: "Someone is waiting in the cooling ruins" the cooling ruins could be Capella...and someone is waiting there...the Dante perhaps?
"The daughter made out of war" could be Noemi Laporte...

If this was posted and discussed somewhere, please provide me a link...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 04, 2011, 01:55:01 am
It wasn't discussed yet. Good find.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 04, 2011, 04:43:27 am
So, supposing that Noemi is the chosen one.  The one to lead the battle against Dante and secure humanities place in the cosmos.  How in the hell do you kill it?  And no, I refuse to allow her to do a Commodore Decker and charge down it's gullet with a bomber full of planet cracker bombs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 04, 2011, 04:50:38 am
Dammit. Now we have to come up with a new plan.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 04, 2011, 04:58:11 am
Replayed the mission again, cause there was a frighter there, hauling another container...so:

SAC 3  5: We are your only hope
SAC 3  6: He Waits in the cooling ruin
SAC 3  7: For a daughter made out of war
SAC 3  8: Brothers! Brothers! Paramatma!
SAC 3  9: Why are you so cold?
SAC 3 44: You look to the walls and works
SAC 3 45: We dance in the garden of life
SAC 3 46: You look for the one from many
SAC 3 47: We look for the one above all.

I understand it, that Noemi will not lead the battle against the shivans, she will rather be the counterpart of Sam, perhaps leading the shivans, if she loses herself in the war against the GTVA...I mean, why would the shivans bother telling Sam via containers, what a long term goal is?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 04, 2011, 05:09:40 am
Replayed the mission again, cause there was a frighter there, hauling another container...so:

SAC 3  5: We are your only hope
SAC 3  6: He Waits in the cooling ruin
SAC 3  7: For a daughter made out of war
SAC 3  8: Brothers! Brothers! Paramatma!
SAC 3  9: Why are you so cold?
SAC 3 44: You look to the walls and works
SAC 3 45: We dance in the garden of life
SAC 3 46: You look for the one from many
SAC 3 47: We look for the one above all.

I understand it, that Noemi will not lead the battle against the shivans, she will rather be the counterpart of Sam, perhaps leading the shivans, if she loses herself in the war against the GTVA...I mean, why would the shivans bother telling Sam via containers, what a long term goal is?

Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra....speaking in metaphors is really hard.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 04, 2011, 05:44:31 am
Just replaying AoA...Concerning Noemi Laporte and her conection with the shivans...
In the mission where you have to protect the vishnan ships against a Moloch, sveral cruisers and strikecraft, there are several containers and after playing Vasagos Dirge I'm very sceptical towards unscanned containers...
After scanning you get the folloing lines, ordered by the numbers:

SAC 3  6: He Waits in the cooling ruin
SAC 3  7: For a daughter made out of war
SAC 3  8: Brothers! Brothers! Paramatma!
SAC 3  9: Why are you so cold?
SAC 3 44: You look to the walls and works
SAC 3 45: We dance in the garden of life
SAC 3 46: You look for the one from many
SAC 3 47: We look for the one above all.

Well paramatma is something like ... consciousness merging with the highest self...well, I don't quite get it, so maybe someone could search Wikipedia, Brahman is mentioned there as well.^^

Theory: "Someone is waiting in the cooling ruins" the cooling ruins could be Capella...and someone is waiting there...the Dante perhaps?
"The daughter made out of war" could be Noemi Laporte...

If this was posted and discussed somewhere, please provide me a link...

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=68469.0

I don't really expect you to go digging up year old topics though. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SD-Beast on April 04, 2011, 07:56:48 am
I recall it being states that, in BP the Shivans can only do their thing under certain rules.
 
Spoiler:
What if Project Nagari is the Fedayeen enacting those rules or conditions that allow the Shivans to operate? Especially given "We are your only hope."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 04, 2011, 09:16:31 am
I recall it being states that, in BP the Shivans can only do their thing under certain rules.
 
Spoiler:
What if Project Nagari is the Fedayeen enacting those rules or conditions that allow the Shivans to operate? Especially given "We are your only hope."

God no, that would be so overkill.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FSW on April 05, 2011, 01:49:48 pm
Quote from: Luis Dias
At first I was unconvinced that the Vasudans were that "stupid" to believe in such a strange suggestion by Steele. Consider: why wouldn't Steele try to boycott this reunion? That would be only logical. Why would the Vasudan take his advice seriously? Why wouldn't he consider the evidence that UEF tried to put on the table?
Perhaps the Vasudan Admiral was in on the whole thing. Perhaps he, for some yet-undisclosed reason, wanted an excuse to get involved in the war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 05, 2011, 01:54:32 pm
Quote from: Luis Dias
At first I was unconvinced that the Vasudans were that "stupid" to believe in such a strange suggestion by Steele. Consider: why wouldn't Steele try to boycott this reunion? That would be only logical. Why would the Vasudan take his advice seriously? Why wouldn't he consider the evidence that UEF tried to put on the table?
Perhaps the Vasudan Admiral was in on the whole thing. Perhaps he, for some yet-undisclosed reason, wanted an excuse to get involved in the war.

Now that's better.

And a by-liner by some of the pilots passing on that speculation would have been great.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 05, 2011, 03:33:53 pm
Quote from: Luis Dias
At first I was unconvinced that the Vasudans were that "stupid" to believe in such a strange suggestion by Steele. Consider: why wouldn't Steele try to boycott this reunion? That would be only logical. Why would the Vasudan take his advice seriously? Why wouldn't he consider the evidence that UEF tried to put on the table?
Perhaps the Vasudan Admiral was in on the whole thing. Perhaps he, for some yet-undisclosed reason, wanted an excuse to get involved in the war.
"One day, it will no longer be said that Earthborn fight like Vasudans, but Vasudans fight like Earthborn."


Remember this from somewhere, hmmmmmmm?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 05, 2011, 06:16:38 pm
It's an odd set of circumstance for the Vasudans from a practical point of view. If the assembly is successful in conquering and annexing Sol into the GTVA the Terran race will have almost double the population and industrial capacity of the Zods. A GTVA with Sol in it's grasp would make Terrans the undisputed bigger partner in the Alliance, comparable to the "Special Relationship" status between America and Britain in that one side is clearly the master.

On these counts alone the Vasudans should want anything but a Tev victory, not to mention the obvious cultural ties Ubuntu shares with Vasudan society.

I wonder what Khonsu meant by that quote. Was he referring to the Terrans of the GTVA or the literal earthborn, the Feds.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on April 05, 2011, 06:22:07 pm
Actually we have no idea what Zod industrial capacity is. It could well be that they already have a much larger capacity than the Terrans - annexing of Sol might make the Alliance more equal.

And I assume the second.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on April 05, 2011, 11:41:18 pm
I played around with some assumptions here, but there's too many variables here. What is the rate of growth in a space-age economy, not limited to a single planet? What was the size of the Vasudan economy after the first invasion? What is the degree of the contraction (or stagnation or limited growth) that GTVA faced after the second invasion and exactly what happened in the GTA - UEF transision, with its massive resdistribution and subsequent growth?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 06, 2011, 05:42:45 am
I played around with some assumptions here, but there's too many variables here. What is the rate of growth in a space-age economy, not limited to a single planet? What was the size of the Vasudan economy after the first invasion? What is the degree of the contraction (or stagnation or limited growth) that GTVA faced after the second invasion and exactly what happened in the GTA - UEF transision, with its massive resdistribution and subsequent growth?

I think you're quite open for blatant "duck it out of your ass" if you want to. IOW, you can have it as you want it. For instance, freespace universe doesn't mention transhumanism. You'd think that in such a long time, humans would have figured out how to implant cpus and memory chips in their brains, miniscule as a water droplet, powerful as a supercomputer.

In such a case, growth rates in the economy could well achieve north of 20%, 50%, 100% a year. Why not, it's not as if we have precedent over this to get a clue. Notice that in such types of numbers, you are absolutely lost about what is going to happen within ten years. Will your economy be five times bigger? 20 times? A hundred times?

Granted, freespace doesn't seem to be a "transumanistic" universe, but they do have incredible technology, and their growth rates can be anywhere we want them to be.

So it's more up to the demands of the plot for our own entertainment than anything else. Do you want to build a campaign where GTVA is overrun by a maddening race growing their economy 100% a year? Or do you want to make a plot, pretending this is the twentieth nth century, but it's nothing more than a picture of our own time and place (which is what science fiction almost always is)?

Your call, really.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on April 06, 2011, 05:47:59 am
Well, we know for a fact that humans are still bound by the same biases they've always had, although I wouldn't rule out much more educated people on average. We also know that in terms of economy UEF > GTA and the Zods > GTA, but not by how much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 06, 2011, 06:53:29 am
It's also slightly reminiscent of the japanese war against the usa. Japan did good damage at the start, but the economic machine of the states eventually overran japan.

There are significant differences. For one, the fleets of the usa were more comparable and similar to each other than the case in here. For two, the moment war is declared, the whole usa economy was turned into a war machine, and in this case, there are still attempts at appeasement and "other solutions". Americans weren't this hippy-pacifistic.

For three, it seems that Steele has learned from history and guessed correctly that if the GTA prolongues this war too much, there is the chance that the sol economy will eventually overturn the tides of war. So he is pressing before, and I'm paraphrasing a well known japanese expression, the "dormant bear awakes".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 07:24:15 am
The UEF economy turning the tides of war is something I really, really doubt. In this case you can't use Japan and America as examples. The GTA already managed to move out of their planet, and into space. The GTA (and the GTVA) even managed to colonize many many other systems. The UEF in comparison, had nothing of the sort, only receiving what was of the GTA's work, the Sol system. They're not like countries or territories, the factors are more immense than 'we sail here and put flag'. You should not use WWII as a comparison, in any case...

I'm certain that the GTVA is the dormant bear. If the UEF has been fighting for (I don't remember how many months), why haven't they won, forcing the GTVA back into the node and spreading Ubuntu throughout the GTVA and causing a massive civil war? Because it's the fact that the GTVA can win a war of attrition, and the UEF can't. They are nothing like a dormant bear. Why haven't the entire Sol sector gone into a fury and rage, churning ships and stuff out like crazy after all the 'atrocities' the GTVA committed? The Elders? One is dead because of it.

The Vasudans have already shifted into full-scale logistics support. If the GTVA decides to pull out all stops...you know.



Edit: I think I know why, and why you should smack Byrne in the balls for it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 06, 2011, 07:44:09 am
No, sure, I agree that the analogy is lost in the middle of the war, and is blown to shreds in Delenda Est. Your point about they being interstellar territories is irrelevant for this point, for it is an analogy, not a direct translation. And I'm sure that historians would slap you too if you deflated WW2 as a "we sail here and put flag".

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I'm certain that the GTVA is the dormant bear

Yes, that's right, in terms of actual firepower. My point was an economical one. In WW2, when japan attacked the US, their naval fleet was also superior to the american one. What made the difference was the relative economics between those countries (given they had time to make up for the difference in firepower).

Quote
If the UEF has been fighting for (I don't remember how many months), why haven't they won, forcing the GTVA back into the node and spreading Ubuntu throughout the GTVA and causing a massive civil war? Because it's the fact that the GTVA can win a war of attrition, and the UEF can't.

This is a non-sequitor. The UEF cannot win the war due to various factors, one of which is the lack of willingness to do so, and another one is the lack of defensive confidence to back up such an attack. The GTVA fleet is a pure attacking one, resting in a system where they have to defend nothing but themselves. The UEF has to defend their own industries, their planets, their base stations. This assymetry causes one fleet to be defensive and the other to attack. But this is perpendicular to the attrition issue. The GTVA also has "attrition issues", since they are fighting "their own people" in a shameless war without too much of a justification. People back on the other systems may start not to like it that much.

I mean, just witness what the shebang it was in the war on iraq, and that was a war against a very lunatic, mad, egomaniacal, criminous douchebag. How can you maintain the support for a war against pacifists without political backslash in GTVA territories for so long? Propaganda, sure, but even that has its own limits.

So in terms of "attrition", I'd say that both teams have their own issues. The GTVA might not hold public approval for too long, and the UEF might just not hold on in terms of actual logistics and army maintenance due to actual physical attrition.

Who will get to that cracking point before? The "logical bets" would be on UEF just going down now pretty fast, but this is a novel, a fantasy, a good adventure, and the hero is in the UEF. So my actual bet is that the UEF will win with a ****ing bit twist, and hopefully not a deus ex machina (surely, the writers are good).


I mean, if Sheppard alone can destroy a whole fleet of reapers all by him/herself, why the **** not? :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 06, 2011, 07:50:20 am
the hero is in the UEF

Hardly a reason to have the UEF win. This may be fantasy, but it is quite realistic, and heroes die in war as anybody else. See the rogue SOC squadron Laporte and Simms destroyed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 06, 2011, 07:54:50 am
the hero is in the UEF
Hardly a reason to have the UEF win. This may be fantasy, but it is quite realistic, and heroes die in war as anybody else. See the rogue SOC squadron Laporte and Simms destroyed.
The rogue SOC squadron weren't the protagonists. Laporte is. Protagonists usually win.


Of course the BP guys are super cool and I'm sure they won't go down any formulaic route.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 08:02:07 am
So...who is Xinny and Zero in that SOC squadron? I was decimated on every try, even the first.



So what's with the lack of orbital planetary defenses? There is simply nothing like weapon satellites (no, no! Don't look at that giant one -Sara- made!) or giant magnetic accelerator cannons...not even a Morningstar-armed sentry gun? It's Earth, you know! Earth...well, Earth. The most important place or something. There's no mention of Earth firing Ground to Space missiles either, while Mercury does.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2011, 08:24:44 am
the hero is in the UEF
Hardly a reason to have the UEF win. This may be fantasy, but it is quite realistic, and heroes die in war as anybody else. See the rogue SOC squadron Laporte and Simms destroyed.
The rogue SOC squadron weren't the protagonists. Laporte is. Protagonists usually win.

But uh that's like the worst example ever because the rogue SOC squadron can win that mission. You can get shot down and not kill them and proceed with the campaign.

So...who is Xinny and Zero in that SOC squadron? I was decimated on every try, even the first.

They're Alpha 3 and Alpha 4 from 'Into the Lion's Den' in FS2.

Quote
So what's with the lack of orbital planetary defenses? There is simply nothing like weapon satellites (no, no! Don't look at that giant one -Sara- made!) or giant magnetic accelerator cannons...not even a Morningstar-armed sentry gun? It's Earth, you know! Earth...well, Earth. The most important place or something. There's no mention of Earth firing Ground to Space missiles either, while Mercury does.

Why put something on the ground when you can put it in space? Sticking a weapon at the bottom of a gravity well is not going to make it more effective.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on April 06, 2011, 08:25:57 am
So what's with the lack of orbital planetary defenses? There is simply nothing like weapon satellites (no, no! Don't look at that giant one -Sara- made!) or giant magnetic accelerator cannons...not even a Morningstar-armed sentry gun? It's Earth, you know! Earth...well, Earth. The most important place or something. There's no mention of Earth firing Ground to Space missiles either, while Mercury does.

Who says there aren't any planitary defences? When Laporte's squadron arrives at the scene, the GTVA attack is already going at for a while. Enough time to destroy nearby weapon platforms. To protect the whole Earth space with such satellites as indicated in B5 is rather impossible, anyway. You'd need hundreds of thousands if not millions of those platforms to put up a full screen. Way to expensive, way to ineffective. It'd be far more cost effective to have fighters and warships.

Earthborn missile launchers would be way too ineffective imo. It would take far too long for them to reach orbit and could thereby easily be shot down by fighters and/or ship turrets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on April 06, 2011, 09:04:11 am
Video of an actual earthbased missile used against a satellite: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ7g4tejb4Y

To be honest, I'm not sure which method of missile defence is more practical for a space age society. If the resources are on the planet, is it better to build it, launch it to a platform and then launch it in wartime... or just build it and launch it in wartime?

I would think a multilayered defence system would work best. One with platforms, warships, and earthbased defences.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 06, 2011, 09:16:31 am
Subspace makes a "screen" of defence satellites totally illogical. You can send a moving fighter to a scene, but you can't send an immobile gun platform anywhere. The only place platforms are used in FS at all are nodes and cargo depots and only then because they're both small enough to defend with such devices. The UEF fleet is Earth's defence. Besides how in hell would you justify a defence network in a system that has near zero security issues barring ze mighty Gef.

Not to mention weapons in FS have crap range right enough.

Ninja'ed: it's a stationary object getting shot down. FS Ships move. :P

Argueing for planetary based defences to shoot down stuff in space is like saying you should put a load of artillery piece on a country's coastline to protect against foreign navies. Best thing to fight a navy is your own navy, same in space.

Problem with FS is like all sci-fi, space=ocean.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 09:26:13 am
I'd say build and launch it in wartime. The GTVA hasn't done any orbital bombardments, instead they smashed all those stuff in orbit. We don't really know if ships in FS (except BP anyway...) can even operate in atmospheres, or achieve escape velocity. Does the UEF have a terrestrial arm? Fighters? Aircraft carriers? All that.

Unless the GTVA is going to do an orbital bombardment, ground-based missile silo clusters is more safer than one in space, probably......but yeah, bigchunk does have a point with multi-layered defenses. If your warships get sunk in the Atlantic ocean Buckshee, those artillery pieces you put there will be pretty useful.



You have to be kidding me Batutta, I think I'm glad I let them shoot me down got shot down by them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Suongadon on April 06, 2011, 09:34:21 am

Earthborn missile launchers would be way to effective imo. It would take far too long for them to reach orbit and could thereby easily be shot down by fighters and/or ship turrets.

Ineffective you mean? They'd only be easy to shoot down if they were being shot from the same side of the planet as the target. Better to shoot them from the other side, that way the warheads are in orbit and cruising long before they can be intercepted by the target. Maybe a little much realistic for a universe where ships have a top speed though.

Though wouldn't a surface installation basically be inviolate in FS? Since unlike an orbiting satellite or a spaceship, it can't be swarmed with fighters/bombers (since they're not good at atmospheric flight, right?), and a capital ship trying to bombard the surface would have to get into its range. *edit* Though it depends on how close a ship can jump to a planet, doesn't it?

To be honest, I'm not sure which method of missile defence is more practical for a space age society. If the resources are on the planet, is it better to build it, launch it to a platform and then launch it in wartime... or just build it and launch it in wartime?

If there was no concern for keeping hundreds/thousands of several hundred megaton bombs on the planet then I'd think keeping it on the planet would be best (cheapest, most defensible) for defending the immediate area, with ships responsible for supporting these systems and protecting installations outside the planetbound weapons' reach.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 06, 2011, 10:01:06 am

Ineffective you mean? They'd only be easy to shoot down if they were being shot from the same side of the planet as the target. Better to shoot them from the other side, that way the warheads are in orbit and cruising long before they can be intercepted by the target. Maybe a little much realistic for a universe where ships have a top speed though.

Though wouldn't a surface installation basically be inviolate in FS? Since unlike an orbiting satellite or a spaceship, it can't be swarmed with fighters/bombers (since they're not good at atmospheric flight, right?), and a capital ship trying to bombard the surface would have to get into its range. *edit* Though it depends on how close a ship can jump to a planet, doesn't it?

Problem is that those installations are on the wrong side of the gravity well. Since they can't move, they can be taken out with ease by dropping an asteroid on them.

Quote
If there was no concern for keeping hundreds/thousands of several hundred megaton bombs on the planet then I'd think keeping it on the planet would be best (cheapest, most defensible) for defending the immediate area, with ships responsible for supporting these systems and protecting installations outside the planetbound weapons' reach.

See above RE: asteroids. Once you have the location (via HUMINT, spysats, whatever), your ground-based installation is toast. And even if it is able to fire a shot at a target, there are still many problems. One, such a launch is guaranteed to be noticeable from orbit (given the amount of explodey payload you need to scratch an FS vessel). Two, the missile will take a few minutes to reach the target, which is usually enough for the target to jump away real quick. Three, if you've used this tactic once, you can't repeat it, since no commander worth his stripes will send ships worth firing at into range of your installations when he can send in a couple fighters and bombers to destroy what he needs to destroy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 03:08:09 pm
Is it actually safe to warp into a planet's gravity well, and atmosphere? Plus I'm sure there's plenty of ground-based defences. Humans fight for land, not for space. Maybe some THAADs or PAC-3s or something, then SAMs and maybe shield the top of the missile silo. Would be pretty cheap to shield the lid. It's probably the size of a Vajra.

Also asteroids + Earth = Not what GTVA wants






...although I began drooling at the prospect of being capable of firing a full Tomahawk cruise missile adapted for space use out of a UEF bomber...seeing the wings deploy and ignite it's rocket engines...damn. *drool*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 06, 2011, 03:38:40 pm
Ground based defences, maybe, but not against anything in space. Any spaceborne threat will likely have a subspace drive, making a missile strike with it's long flight time totally useless. Basically what the E just said. I doubt there are aircraft carriers of any kind, I like to think 24th century aircraft would have enough range and speed to make sea assets totally mute. Hell there probably won't be an air force anyway seeing as there are no other factions on any one planet to fight in the air.

FS canonically has space navies and infantry only, which makes sense for the above reasons. I may be a little biased seeing as I personally hate the idea of archaic sea and air forces in a future with space battles.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logistics on April 06, 2011, 03:39:42 pm
Quote
...although I began drooling at the prospect of being capable of firing a full Tomahawk cruise missile adapted for space use out of a UEF bomber...seeing the wings deploy and ignite it's rocket engines...damn. *drool*

Adapted for space + wings.

...I'm not seeing it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 03:48:54 pm
Well Buckshee, I'm willing to bet any pure space or hybrid space-air fighter will not perform better than a pure air superiority fighter with 2385 technology. (Macross is just your ordinary fighter with thermonuclear engines, awesome ain't it)

Quote
...although I began drooling at the prospect of being capable of firing a full Tomahawk cruise missile adapted for space use out of a UEF bomber...seeing the wings deploy and ignite it's rocket engines...damn. *drool*

Adapted for space + wings.

...I'm not seeing it.
There's something called the cool factor!

And note that most, launchable thingies have fins, if not, wings. When you go to weapon loadout.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 06, 2011, 03:50:34 pm
Is it actually safe to warp into a planet's gravity well, and atmosphere? Plus I'm sure there's plenty of ground-based defences. Humans fight for land, not for space. Maybe some THAADs or PAC-3s or something, then SAMs and maybe shield the top of the missile silo. Would be pretty cheap to shield the lid. It's probably the size of a Vajra.

Well, we thought about this. We figure that the energy required to make a jump depends on how deep you are in a gravity well, and how heavy you are. So while you may be able to jump into a gravity well, you may not be able to jump out again. Basically, fighters can skip the Orbit/Atmosphere interface, heavier ships can't. If you've seen BSG's Return to New Caprica arc, you can imagine what a Destroyer jumping into Atmosphere looks like, only minus the successful jumpout.

And, well, FS is still a universe where the Weber/Heinlein rule is valid, i.e. if you control the orbit, you control the planet, because nothing can stop you from dropping ordnance or troops from a superior position.
To reiterate, Surface-to-Orbit weapons systems are one-shot weapons, you can use them once, but then their effectiveness is nil, because the countermaneuvers are rather easy and obvious.

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Also asteroids + Earth = Not what GTVA wants

Nope, it's not what they want. However, it's what they can do, and it's what they will do if pushed hard enough.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 04:00:09 pm
I'm firmly entrenched that having a terrestrial arm is important, because it's better to have a soldier guarding a city than no one at all. Both Battles of Deneb had ground forces involved (No mentions about Shivan armies invading or how terrifying it can be, but the shipboarding cutscene was scary enough).

Although, I don't foresee the GTVA wanting to really start doing orbital bombardments with asteroids, unless they're really going to be pushed out of Sol. The UEF'll need a lotta antimatter ready...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 06, 2011, 04:02:43 pm
Oh, sure, there probably are ground-based army units.

However, the war will be decided in space; just as the War in the Pacific was decided in the Pacific, not through ground battles on japanese soil.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on April 06, 2011, 04:17:53 pm
I'm firmly entrenched that having a terrestrial arm is important, because it's better to have a soldier guarding a city than no one at all. Both Battles of Deneb had ground forces involved (No mentions about Shivan armies invading or how terrifying it can be, but the shipboarding cutscene was scary enough).

Although, I don't foresee the GTVA wanting to really start doing orbital bombardments with asteroids, unless they're really going to be pushed out of Sol. The UEF'll need a lotta antimatter ready...

Having a warship parked overhead with the ability to conduct airstrikes and bombard entrenched positions is a rather insurmountable tactical edge.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 04:31:40 pm
I'm not that sure the efficiency of the fighters part of the airstrike would be high, but if it works, it may as well work if there aren't Rapier/Dart-armed F-22s around. Being capable of bombarding people from on top of their heads, is essentially endgame for the defending forces. That is, if the weapons actually work as intended, when they fly through the atmosphere. The main guns of Karunas and Naras probably could. For beams, I think there's a possibility the whole magnetic thingy can be sustained actually. Although, I think slashing beams would decimate entire swaths of defenses at once, while LRBGreens are for melting through to bunkers.

Although I think ultimately the war was ended due to the atomic bombing, the Pacific just hastened their defeat, and allowed the Allies to move ground forces to the Home Islands. They were prepared for a bloody...bloodbath on their own soil.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 06, 2011, 04:38:32 pm
Yes, but one cannot help but notice the complete absence of the famous siege of Tokyo from this universe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on April 06, 2011, 04:56:56 pm
I'm not that sure the efficiency of the fighters part of the airstrike would be high, but if it works, it may as well work if there aren't Rapier/Dart-armed F-22s around. Being capable of bombarding people from on top of their heads, is essentially endgame for the defending forces. That is, if the weapons actually work as intended, when they fly through the atmosphere. The main guns of Karunas and Naras probably could. For beams, I think there's a possibility the whole magnetic thingy can be sustained actually. Although, I think slashing beams would decimate entire swaths of defenses at once, while LRBGreens are for melting through to bunkers.

Seeing as how threatening to bombard planets was the Alliances original strategy, and knowing that beams are proven to work effectively at surface bombardment, I'd say that beams NOT working in such a capacity is a pretty hard assertion to defend.

Do remember though, these beams have high megaton yeilds at least. The LRBGreen beam wouldn't melt through a bunker, it would utterly destroy a city. A single Chimera would probably be capable of taking out every major city in the United States in several minutes. I doubt the alliance would primarily use beams in a siege scenario, more likely, they'd use strikecraft based weaponry and toned down guns to destroy surface targets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 06, 2011, 05:04:40 pm
Knowing the gigaton-scale damage involved in your average FS battle, the GTVA probably have what's equivalent to wave motion guns on every ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on April 06, 2011, 05:13:06 pm
I think BP has actually lowered the yield of most weapons in their canon, but they're still absurdly high
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 06, 2011, 05:19:05 pm
GTVA Infantryman after unsuccessful Earth invasion:- "I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 06, 2011, 05:22:44 pm
I think BP has actually lowered the yield of most weapons in their canon, but they're still absurdly high
Still, I vaguely recall a comment that basically said there was more firepower being slung about in a couple minutes than every war up until the 21st century put together.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 06, 2011, 05:27:14 pm
Although I think ultimately the war was ended due to the atomic bombing, the Pacific just hastened their defeat, and allowed the Allies to move ground forces to the Home Islands. They were prepared for a bloody...bloodbath on their own soil.
When will people finally learn that the nukes were not the reason for the end of the war.
Japans economy was close to collapsing, they were close to running out of fuel for their ships and planes and they were already offering conditional surrender, with the only condition being allowed to keep the Emperor.
The nukes were completely unnecessary for anything other than showing the soviet union that they had them and that they had more than one.


As for surface-to-space missiles, I doubt they would be effective in FS2. Any missile with enough fuel and a strong enough engine to break the atmosphere, would have to be a certain size and that would make them big enough to be shot down by point defense. So unless you could fire a massive swarm of them, they'd never hit the target.
Maybe it would work if it was surface-launched SSMs, but I doubt anything, even something as "small" as an SSM missile (if I remember correctly, they are bigger than some fighters), can be launched from the surface of a planet.
But maybe the moon has a weak enough gravity well to be used as an SSM missile base, if the UEF ever uses their own version of this weapon.

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Nope, it's not what they want. However, it's what they can do, and it's what they will do if pushed hard enough.
I don't think the GTVA can be pushed hard enough to resort to dropping asteriods on Earth, even if they are close to being pushed out of Sol. If word of that get's into GTVA space - and word of something of that magnitude WILL get through - they'll have full scale riots on the majority of their planets not to mention wide-spread mutiny in the fleet. They were only able to finish the portal project with the promis of a reunion. Genocide will be the death sentence (politically for sure, most likely also literally) to the current GTVA leadership. In the worst case it might even lead to a fracturing of the terran part of the GTVA, because the systems declare themselfs independent from the monster the GTVA has become.
And that's not even taking into account what kind of reaction you would get from the Vasudans, Vishnans and Shivans. Or what it would do to the other planets of the UEF.
Right now they only want the GTVA stopped. After such a massacre, they'd be out for blood. And not just a few troops, but pretty much every surviving person in the entire Solar System.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on April 06, 2011, 05:39:46 pm
I have a funny feeling the GTVA is capable of a lot. . .
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2011, 05:40:52 pm
I think any direct act of aggression against Earth might well be politically dangerous for them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 05:44:37 pm
The Galactic Terran-Vasudan Alliance. If they devastated Terra...it wouldn't be the GTVA anymore. Maybe Neo-Terr...never mind. Oh 14th Battlegroup, why did you have to chance upon a meson fluctuation?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 06, 2011, 05:51:12 pm
Because if they hadn't, we would never have had the chance to play Blue Planet AoA and who can tell what WiH would have been like.
Not to mention hours and hours of discussing the reasons and consequences for the war, the role of the Shivans and the Vishnans in the universe, the enlightenment of the Human race, or even the morality of killing civilians.
AoA also brings us a better perspective of the civil war and the moment the Renjian get's blown up and the Beis desert is priceless.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2011, 06:00:54 pm
It does seem like a rather unusual chance event, doesn't it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 06, 2011, 06:07:17 pm
It very well sure is. AoA was quite...well, makes you think a lot. Kinda spooky at times, like the Duke. It really spooked me out, what the hell was going on and why won't it stop.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 06, 2011, 06:20:26 pm
I always assumed the Vishans (or maybe for an unexplained reason the Shivans) had drawn the 14th battlegroup into their alternate universe. Which also makes me think if the Vishans and Shivans really get involved into the war and start breaking rules, they can make entire fleets disappear by manipulating jump nodes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on April 06, 2011, 09:36:23 pm
The Vishans (and presumably the Shivans) have already demonstrated the ability to randomly throw matter across dimensions and back again. Physics is their plaything. If it ever came down to either race being allowed to break their "rules," there wouldn't be a war. Even if their powers only apply in subspace, we've become so dependent on that one factor for travel and communication that society in the GTVA would simply break down and cease. Sol might be okay, but theres nothing stopping said Alien Gods from steamrolling them out of existence through more conventional means.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on April 06, 2011, 10:05:24 pm
I always assumed the Vishans (or maybe for an unexplained reason the Shivans) had drawn the 14th battlegroup into their alternate universe. Which also makes me think if the Vishans and Shivans really get involved into the war and start breaking rules, they can make entire fleets disappear by manipulating jump nodes.
Yeah, when I first played AoA, I didn't really buy the whole "fluctuation in the meson reactors" thing.  That might have been a side-effect of jumping into another universe or possibly how they actually jumped universes, but I always had a feeling that the Vishnans were ultimately responsible for it.  The only problem with that, according to their conversations w/ Sam, apparently the Vishnans, at least the ones present in that alternate universe, were not aware of the humans until they showed up in that alternate universe.  That implies one of two things: either the Vishnans weren't responsible for the 14th battlegroup ending up in the alternate universe, or they lied to Sam about their knowledge, involvement, etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 06, 2011, 10:09:21 pm
There's a third option, too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 07, 2011, 06:07:59 am
There's a third option, too.

Shivans.

And a fourth: shivans and vishnans from a reality are different from the other. Vishnans from one dimension may not be aware of the same things vishnans from the other are.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 07, 2011, 07:19:31 am
here's a fifth one:

"our" shivans are different from the "apocalypse 'verse" shivans and both are alternate universe versions of the vishnans
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 07, 2011, 07:27:27 am
Shivan and Vishnan sound so alike too, pronounced. Because you can construct Shivann out of Vishnan, maybe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 07, 2011, 07:32:47 am
That is due to the origin of the names in Indias history, since those two and Brahma are (hindu?) gods.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on April 07, 2011, 07:42:47 am
actually, all three are part of the trinity formed by the essential hindu gods...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on April 07, 2011, 08:09:31 am
Surely another possibility is that an as yet unknown third party is involved in the 14th Battlegroup's meson fluctuation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 07, 2011, 08:35:00 am
Maybe the Fedayeen, acting on behalf of the Vishnans, or whatever beings they really are in contact with, were sabotaging the portal with energy emissions from their side of the node.
Either to deliberately get the 14th bg into that other universe, or with the objective to just make them disappear and thus delay the invasion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 07, 2011, 08:50:49 am
There's a third option, too.

Shivans.

Nope.

Quote
And a fourth: shivans and vishnans from a reality are different from the other. Vishnans from one dimension may not be aware of the same things vishnans from the other are.

The Vishnans were described as being able to move between universes as we move between rooms.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 07, 2011, 08:52:23 am
Hold on, does that mean the Vishnans only exist in one universe? They don't have alternate universe counterparts?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on April 07, 2011, 08:57:22 am
Hold on, does that mean the Vishnans only exist in one universe? They don't have alternate universe counterparts?
I think he's implying that there's only one 'group' of Vishnans, who are able to move between universes at ease. ie. the Vishnans in the 'apocalypse' universe would be one and the same as any possible Vishnans in the 'main' universe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 07, 2011, 09:03:08 am
Okay so as I understand it, they can move freely between universes, but there's only one group of them. (?)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on April 07, 2011, 09:06:08 am
What about the Shivans?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 07, 2011, 09:39:51 am
I assume they exist in all universes but can't travel quite so freely between them. (?)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 07, 2011, 09:45:55 am
Edging so close to dangerous secrets here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on April 07, 2011, 10:01:11 am
Secrets that sent the Jester mad.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 07, 2011, 10:22:55 am
I assume they exist in all universes but can't travel quite so freely between them. (?)

Maybe they need to blow up stars to do so?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 07, 2011, 10:28:58 am
Secrets that sent the Jester mad.
Sanity is for the weak and uninformed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on April 07, 2011, 10:58:13 am
Secrets that sent the Jester mad.

Madness or Enlightenment? Those of us confined purely to this level can never tell the difference.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 07, 2011, 11:01:05 am
I assume they exist in all universes but can't travel quite so freely between them. (?)

Maybe they need to blow up stars to do so?
If they did, when they invaded from Ross 128, there would be lots and lots of lights in the sky. Maybe they chose Capella since it was immediately out of Gamma Draconis, but why couldn't they just blow up Gamma Draconis's star? If there was no star, the entire map should be...pitch black, 'cept for the glowmaps, the fighter's lights and stuff.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 07, 2011, 11:40:16 am
Quote
And a fourth: shivans and vishnans from a reality are different from the other. Vishnans from one dimension may not be aware of the same things vishnans from the other are.

The Vishnans were described as being able to move between universes as we move between rooms.

Yeah, I heard this too. Doesn't mean there aren't other Vishnans in the other rooms. I mean, I walk out the room I'm standing right now, to the other room and there are other people there other than me.

I understand though you are implicitly saying that this is not the case, and since you are one of the writers of BP, I'll take your comment as canon ;).

We'll see what you have come up with when you release the next part of the story. As long as it is good stuff, good for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 07, 2011, 11:43:38 am
Quote
And a fourth: shivans and vishnans from a reality are different from the other. Vishnans from one dimension may not be aware of the same things vishnans from the other are.

The Vishnans were described as being able to move between universes as we move between rooms.

Yeah, I heard this too. Doesn't mean there aren't other Vishnans in the other rooms. I mean, I walk out the room I'm standing right now, to the other room and there are other people there other than me.

Right, but you could then speak about the conditions in your rooms, making it pretty unlikely you'd all have a different room agenda and awareness.

Quote
I understand though you are implicitly saying that this is not the case, and since you are one of the writers of BP, I'll take your comment as canon ;).

Nope. Only material delivered in the campaigns and posted fluff stuff is canonical.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 07, 2011, 11:47:30 am
In fact, any uttering by a team member may be misinformation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on April 07, 2011, 11:49:50 am
In fact, any uttering by a team member may be misinformation.
Of course. You're deliberately feeding us counter-intelligence in order to keep the surprise as real as possible. Clever boys.

Right, but you could then speak about the conditions in your rooms, making it pretty unlikely you'd all have a different room agenda and awareness.
No, but the other people that usually work on those rooms might have a - more or less slightly - different agenda than me. We don't know if the Vishnans are a 100% unified entity, from the in-universe and the cross-universe point of view.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 07, 2011, 12:05:04 pm
The idea of an inter-universe federation of vishnans with their own agendas, purposes, desires, and internal metrics and so on, is very interesting and funny.

Funny in the sense of mind-gobbling. It's just so far ahead of my brain that I can't parse any kind of policies, strategies or tactics that may come out of such state of affairs. As far as I can ('t) see, they could well do nonsensical monty pythonesque things and it would all make perfect sense in vishnans' point of view.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on April 07, 2011, 12:09:56 pm
The idea of an inter-universe federation of vishnans with their own agendas, purposes, desires, and internal metrics and so on, is very interesting and funny.

Funny in the sense of mind-gobbling. It's just so far ahead of my brain that I can't parse any kind of policies, strategies or tactics that may come out of such state of affairs. As far as I can ('t) see, they could well do nonsensical monty pythonesque things and it would all make perfect sense in vishnans' point of view.

Well, AoA made it very clear that Subspace allows one to access different universes (and may even have given the GTVA some idea of how to achieve it), so all it would take is for the Vishnans to be able to utilise it more proficiently to step between universes. Once you assume that level of ability, it doesn't become any different to the GTVA using it to move between star systems, just that it opens grander vistas of territory.

It also implies that Subspace itself might be a territory, a vast inter-universal sea, and perhaps that wars are fought in them (Certainly, the Vishnans/Shivans talked about the Brahmans in the past tense, so something must have happened to them. Of course, I'm assuming that the Brahmans of old were travellers between universes, and imparted that knowledge to the Shivans/Vishnans, whom I see as their children/servants), and perhaps it has it's own host of "organisms", and maybe the GTVA have just been incredibly lucky that asides from the Shivans/Vishnans, they've not bumped into anything else coming out of the azure of Subspace.

Edit:

I just mind****ed myself - what if the UEF project is an attempt to get reinforcements from a Paralell universe? (UEF/GTVA Paralells)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 07, 2011, 12:48:32 pm
That's probably what I dislike most about the BP universe, the coincidence between the religious mythology of that trinity and the actual occurrences in BP universe.

Consider. Shivans were first named as such by earthlings in the first few encounters in the first great war in FS1. They *couldn't* have known anything about their nature and their relations with these other species, their importance, etc. The naming of this species was a completely different process, one in which we had to "invent" a name for them, and someone picked "shivans" because it was cool and resonated a little with the mythos.

Now, the writer decided that it would be very cool to include the other races depicted in the mythos, the Vishnans and the Brahmans. And indeed it is, but it creates the whole problem of coincidence. Is it a pure coincidence that these new species are actually performing as an aproximate render of the human mythos, or does this imply that Hindus in BP universe were in fact "the true religion on Earth"?

It's a problem for me, personally. When finding new things about the universe, I don't expect it to render itself into some pre-conceived almost numerological narrative that I coincidently picked when I named a certain species with a certain name 50 years ago. I expect it to be a little more surprising than that. Because otherwise, we suffer from the StarGate syndrome.

Having said that, I fully understand the writer. He had to cling on to some structure and he found that he could bring an interesting story with which he could work with.

And it's very entertaining, so I should just shut up :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 07, 2011, 12:55:49 pm
You could well have your causation backwards. The Vishnans presented themselves to Sam Bei (including their own name) using information from his brain. They knew humanity had named the Shivans, and knew the mythological resonance to the name. From there they could present a package that appealed to him.

It doesn't even necessarily have to involve deceit, just a talent for using what the subject already knows to make the story easy to understand. And there's plenty about Vishnan behavior in AoA that doesn't seem to make them out as goody-two-shoes friends.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 07, 2011, 01:03:59 pm
You could well have your causation backwards. The Vishnans presented themselves to Sam Bei (including their own name) using information from his brain. They knew humanity had named the Shivans, and knew the mythological resonance to the name. From there they could present a package that appealed to him.

Just to clarify what I said, because I don't think I was sufficiently good expressing it (and I still can fail it again), I didn't say that these other species were coincidentally close to the mythos because of their names or general status, but that their behavior, structure and numbers rendered pretty much close to the mythos at hand. Which is always a coincidence, even considering all the excellent caveats that you bring up.

There could have been millions of species. There could have been 30. 42. There could have been 5 species. The whole story was, probabilistically, bound to crack the overall structure of the human mythos.

Quote
It doesn't even necessarily have to involve deceit, just a talent for using what the subject already knows to make the story easy to understand. And there's plenty about Vishnan behavior in AoA that doesn't seem to make them out as goody-two-shoes friends.

Well, since I see all gods as eternal enemies of mankind, that isn't necessarily a contradiction :lol: .
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 07, 2011, 01:10:45 pm
It's, in essence, a translation convention (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TranslationConvention). One of the things that you should keep in mind about the Vishnans is that everything they chose to present to Sam Bei was filtered through a Vishnan-Human translator constructed by using Sam's memories.


Just to clarify what I said, because I don't think I was sufficiently good expressing it (and I still can fail it again), I didn't say that these other species were coincidentally close to the mythos because of their names or general status, but that their behavior, structure and numbers rendered pretty much close to the mythos at hand. Which is always a coincidence, even considering all the excellent caveats that you bring up.

Sam only saw what the Vishnans chose to show him. It is not guaranteed that they were 100% open and honest about their intentions, or which role they play in the overall cosmology of BP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 07, 2011, 01:21:28 pm
Point taken, E. It didn't stop me from "mehing" in that precise plot point. If the story unfolds in such a way that it renders my small point moot, it would be awesome.

Mind, though, it won't have to do that to "buy me in". I'm bought already. Stories do not have to be perfect in every sense, specially in not-so-central issues like this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 07, 2011, 02:56:00 pm
Wait... don't the Hindu have way more than 3 deities and Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu are just the highest ranking or something?

Also the Shivans might have had a hand in the picking of the name for them. For all we know, they might be monitoring or even manipulationg us in small ways since the stone age thanks to nagari sensitivity. Just look at Laporte! Ken is definately having an influence on her live, far beyond sleepless nights.
They might have intentionally planted that name in the mind of someone who would later suggest it, because it suits their purpose. Shiva being both a destroyer and protector certainly fits what we know/suspect of the Shivans (protecting the young ones, by wiping out the destoryers).
Or the Vishnans might have done it, because it suits their plans for Humanity, that we associate the Shivans with Shiva and them with Vishnu.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 07, 2011, 04:57:46 pm
There are some misconceptions about the Hindu Trimurti of Brahma, Vishu, and Shiva that I would like to clear up.

First of all, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, at least in the Bhagavad Gita, are not separate bodies.  There is only one of the three at any given time.  For example, the passage of the Bhagavad Gita cited by J. Robert Oppenheimer at the advent of the atomic bomb (Chapter 11, for anyone who wants to look it up), Krishna (and avatar of Vishnu) shows Arjuna all of his forms, of them being Shiva and Brahma ("And now I am become death, shatterer of worlds").

Brahma created the world from iniquity, and re-creates periodically (more on that later).
Vishnu preserves that which Brahma has created.
Shiva destroyes the universe, which Brahma then creates anew.

The destruction and creation occurs regularly every so often.  I can't recall the name or exact time period, but it's something like 1.2 billion years in a normal interval or something.

So, BP Doesn't follow Hindu mythology.  It borrows terms to get the point across.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 07, 2011, 05:01:00 pm
Quote
Brahma created the world from iniquity, and re-creates periodically (more on that later).
Vishnu preserves that which Brahma has created.
Shiva destroyes the universe, which Brahma then creates anew.

Seems sufficiently literal to me.

But I won't press the point. Whatever rocks your boat ;).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 07, 2011, 05:06:17 pm
The point is that only one exists at a time, and that it is literally impossible for them to be set against each other.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 07, 2011, 05:09:10 pm
You don't have to use Hindu mythology. There are many other systems analogous to the one presented in Universal Truth.

For example you could call the two species the Insulins and the Glucagons if you preferred.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 07, 2011, 05:11:47 pm
Another wild guess is that Brahmas aren't all that dead but grew far beyond even the level of excistance the Vishans and Shivans excist in (think the 'Q' or 'Organians' from Star Trek) and seek a more solid/physical replacement as they are no longer on one line with the Shivans and Vishans when it comes to plains of excistance. So far it seems the Shivans and Vishans have all the fancy toys but both aren't quite mature enough to play with them. They both have somewhat selfish agendas and probably innately aren't capable of deviating from their point of view: they respectively preserve and destroye but yet they are left in a decission-making role which conflicts with their biased views. If the latter comment is true, I imagine both Vishans and Shivans would are terrified of giving strangers (compared to them, a child race) that power and they're probably too arrogant to let go of their own views on how things should be ran given their old age.

Heck, alternately if the Brahmas still 'live' they may intent a different design which no longer upholds the 'holy' trinity which once was the Vishans/Shivans/Brahmas. Perhaps the GTVA/UEF are but a catalyst which has the potential to form some sort of galactic federation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on April 07, 2011, 08:35:55 pm
Same here, I'd always kinda figured the Brahmans ascended past even the point the Vishnans operate at, and it left this enormous vacuum that forced the two "lesser" races to act as they did. They seemed lost, to me anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 08, 2011, 01:30:25 am
Another wild guess is that Brahmas aren't all that dead but grew far beyond even the level of excistance the Vishans and Shivans excist in (think the 'Q' or 'Organians' from Star Trek) and seek a more solid/physical replacement as they are no longer on one line with the Shivans and Vishans when it comes to plains of excistance. So far it seems the Shivans and Vishans have all the fancy toys but both aren't quite mature enough to play with them. They both have somewhat selfish agendas and probably innately aren't capable of deviating from their point of view: they respectively preserve and destroye but yet they are left in a decission-making role which conflicts with their biased views. If the latter comment is true, I imagine both Vishans and Shivans would are terrified of giving strangers (compared to them, a child race) that power and they're probably too arrogant to let go of their own views on how things should be ran given their old age.

Heck, alternately if the Brahmas still 'live' they may intent a different design which no longer upholds the 'holy' trinity which once was the Vishans/Shivans/Brahmas. Perhaps the GTVA/UEF are but a catalyst which has the potential to form some sort of galactic federation.
That would make the Vishnans the Vorlons and the Shivans the Shadows almost exactly.  Makes me wonder when Lorien is going to turn up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 08, 2011, 03:54:20 am
Maybe on the surface, but not really when you go into details.
The Shadows don't try to wipe out any species. They want to stir up conflicts among to younger races to help them evolve faster (Chaos through warface, evolution through bloodshed, perfection through victory), believing that the survivors of such wars are smarter, stronger and better. Only in chaos can growth occur, order is stagnation. Of course some species get wiped out, but for them that is regrettable but accepteble collateral damage. "Of course some are lost, but you can't let that get in the way of the goal" to quote a kind of ambassador of the shadows in the final episode of season 3.
The Shivans on the other hand wiped out the ancients without giving them a chance to "learn their lessen". Wether the Humans and Vasudans survival or the ancients annihilation is the exception from their usual way is anyones guess.

Unlike the Vishnans the Vorlons don't much care about the enlightenment of the younger ones, or about preserving anything. They just want to teach absolute order and discipline to the younger races, because they beliefe this is the only way for them to evolve, up to the point that, once the rules of engagment are broken, they wipe out whole planets that were "infected" with the Shadows' philosophy. They even were willing to destroy a planet which was the home of a primitive, albeit numerous (several millions, I forgot the exact number), species that wasn't even aware of the base the Shadows build on their world.

Lorien and his people "meditated between order and chaos" as the technomage trilogy put it. They believe and growth can only occur were order and chaos are in balance. That's why they left both the Shadows and the Vorlons behind as guardians.
We have no information on the Brahmans, except that they existed.... and even that isn't fully reliable information, considering the circumstance of how the 14th got privy to that info.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 08, 2011, 07:49:22 am
[digession]
Based on information provided by Lorien himself, there may not have been any other of his people.
[/digression]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 08, 2011, 09:16:33 am
And also based on cave paintings and writing Galen (and probably Sheridan too, though it's never mentioned or shown) saw deep in the caves of Za'ha'dum, were it is depicted and written, how the Shadows once followed the balanced path, but slowly turned towards the path of pure chaos.
Now granted, that is information from a book, but a book for which the author Jeanne Cavelos worked very closely with J.M. Straczinski (creator of Babylon 5). JMS said in an interview that it was 95% canon IIRC. The only book he said to be 100% canon was "To dream in the City of Sorrows".... which was written by his wife. Make of that what you will ;).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 10, 2011, 09:19:56 am
Then again maybe Laporte is a heavily medicated patient from the 21st century in a psychiatric ward, suffering of a horrible case of schizophrenia with all of BP happening inside her head. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on April 10, 2011, 09:28:13 am
Then again maybe Laporte is a heavily medicated patient from the 21st century in a psychiatric ward, suffering of a horrible case of schizophrenia with all of BP happening inside her head. :D
And Samuel Bei is the gentle professor? :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 10, 2011, 09:33:49 am
Chiwetel Steele, MD.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 10, 2011, 09:44:53 am
But that would be one hell of a turnaround. Imagine BP 1 and 2 being a prophetic dream of the Jester and in BP3 we have to prevent the War in Heaven from ever happening.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 10, 2011, 09:47:13 am
"It was all just a dream" is one of the worst storytelling tropes ever, since it basically invalidates everything that happened until the dream is revealed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2011, 09:48:40 am
Chiwetel Steele, MD.

Fund it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 10, 2011, 09:50:59 am
"It was all just a dream" is one of the worst storytelling tropes ever, since it basically invalidates everything that happened until the dream is revealed.
Yes, but there is a difference between "It was just a dream" and "It was a vision of the future, that will come true, unless I prevent it".
Especially if it turns out to be a self fullfilling prophecy and everything will happen as it was shown in the vision, exactly because the protagonist tried to prevent it from happening.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 10, 2011, 10:01:37 am
Especially if it turns out to be a self fullfilling prophecy and everything will happen as it was shown in the vision, exactly because the protagonist tried to prevent it from happening.

Which, in a game where the protagonist is built up to be a decisive force in the game universe, is even worse.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2011, 10:03:04 am
Hey let's not get mad here. Let the fans talk!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on April 10, 2011, 11:14:36 am
Especially if it turns out to be a self fullfilling prophecy and everything will happen as it was shown in the vision, exactly because the protagonist tried to prevent it from happening.

Which, in a game where the protagonist is built up to be a decisive force in the game universe, is even worse.
Not if it's possible to prevent events, but just takes some thought.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 10, 2011, 05:45:29 pm
I wonder if the light from Capella has reached Sol yet...?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 10, 2011, 06:07:37 pm
Depends on which one of the quaternaries they blew up.  But, yeah, there should be a visible neblua since it's only 42 LY away.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2011, 06:13:03 pm
Depends on which one of the quaternaries they blew up.  But, yeah, there should be a visible neblua since it's only 42 LY away.

Indeed, but Capella only being 18 years past it'll need a wee bit more time to cross the distance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on April 10, 2011, 07:24:05 pm
Something that interests me is the reaction of Sol's people to the history of the GTVA. Obviously, terror. They basically would have heard, 'It was like the war that destroyed Vasuda Prime and nearly Earth, except quite a lot worse.' That's enough to make anyone paranoid but if I actually lived in the BP setting I'd be fascinated by the parallel history the Tevs had lived through. Do we know just how much the average Joes and Janes of Sol know about what happened?

Interesting to think about Capella's light reaching Sol. Would be a pretty sombre astronomical sight.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2011, 07:33:31 pm
They know quite a bit. I believe Laporte reflects on the GTVA's history at a couple points, when she's feeling more empathic, and discusses how differently they've had things - facing down the demons instead of a sealed system full of riches. I believe the Ubuntu government prepared a set of pamphlets for broad dissemination once they were done debriefing the 14th Battlegroup's defectors, and these were generally quite popular (and upsetting) reading.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 11, 2011, 12:43:55 am
Interesting to think about Capella's light reaching Sol. Would be a pretty sombre astronomical sight.

Capella is 42 light years away, and War in Heaven is 20 years after it blew up. The fireworks won't reach Sol until 22 years pass... if there's anybody left to watch them, that is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 11, 2011, 02:15:54 am
I thought this was 18 years after something that happened a dozen years after....wait, now I've confuzzuled myself.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 11, 2011, 02:17:31 am
FS1 ---32 years---> FS2 (Capella) ---18 years---> BP
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 11, 2011, 03:50:18 am
If I remember correctly it says "50 years after the great war" in the AoA intro. The "great war" is the first Shivan incursion, which happened during the last moments of the terran-vasudan war (and caused it to end).

The FreeSpace 2 campaign, starting out with the NTF rebellion, is commonly refered to as "second Shivan incursion" and very seldomly also as "second great war" and as Scotty already posted happend 32 after FS1 and 18 years before Age of Aquarius.
Now add a few weeks for AoA, a few more month for the gap between AoA and WiH and a month or two, during which WiH plays and you'll roughly get to the 2 more years that are missing to the 20 years since Capella that were mentioned before.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on April 11, 2011, 04:03:48 am
The gap between the end of AoA and start of WiH is eighteen months.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 11, 2011, 09:37:55 am
20 years...ok, now I'm not confused.  Just amazed that a civilization that could build the Colossus in secret without anyone noticing the expenditures could then turn around and crash economically and stay there for the same period of time they took to build their supership.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 11, 2011, 10:29:38 am
Except, they didn't build the Colly in secret. They launched her in secret, possibly ahead of schedule, but that doesn't mean that they hid the cost of it. The Colossus project took 30 years and was just the spearhead of a massive public investment scheme designed to kickstart GTVA shipbuilding and R&D efforts. They couldn't keep something like that secret, even if they tried.

Also, the economic collapse was triggered by several things. One, the restructuring of the node network with increased transit times across a part of the GTVA. Two, the massive amount of civil aid that was needed to rehouse the Capella refugees. Three, economic uncertainty after the reveal that yes, the Shivans are still around and yes, they can blow up stars, and yes, the best we can do to stop them is to abandon an entire starsystem. And on top of that, we have a few months of the same uncertainty called the NTF Rebellion. Take all that together, and you get the ingredients for a tasty economic recession.

Also, remember that the Sol gate project was a direct effort to counteract said depression just like the Colossus project was.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 11, 2011, 10:32:04 am
The Sol gate project was hell and a half economically, too.

I doubt the recession continued for a full twenty years - but it's probably been accompanied by a shift in economic policy to 'jesus ****, military now' over growth and investment.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 11, 2011, 01:37:10 pm
I could possibly see Terran hatred for Capellan refugees somewhat directly after the supernova. Unless the said Terrans are really the good kind. I don't think that hatred exists now as of WiH...

...but the Colossus single-handedly smashed the NTF Rebellion after the rest of the GTVA worked their asses off to keep the NTF at bay for the Colossus to become deus ex machina for the Rebellion. I'd say that's good enough for the Colossus. If the NTF Rebellion continued during and after the Shivan invasion, heh...good luck GTVA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 11, 2011, 01:41:18 pm
First part:  What?  Highly unlikely.  The whole GTVA was shocked at the destruction of Capella.  It's much more likely that there was immense sympathy for the refugees.  In general, mind you.  Nobody would like to have them, but that's not the same as hating them.

We know hate still exists as of WiH, because Laporte pretty much hates the GTVA at this point.

The NTF Rebellion did occur during the Shivan invasion.  The nebula missions with the 107th and 134th both take place before the destruction of the NTF at the hands of the Colossus (and Alpha 1 :P).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 11, 2011, 01:52:16 pm
I wouldn't go so far to say the Colossus singlehandedly crushed the NTF.
After the Colossus destroyed a Deimos, Koth' flagship and a couple of cruisers the NTF went for the suicide charge at the portal, relegating the juggernaught to shoot those that fell behind.
I'd estimate the majority of NTF capital ships were smashed by the various blockades rather than the colly.

And considering it was Boschs plan to form an alliance with the Shivans, that charge would have come sooner or later anyway if you ask me,  Colossus or no Colossus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 11, 2011, 03:08:42 pm
The Colossus was described in the briefings to have taken care of atleast one more destroyer and several corvettes. It's hard to imagine the NTF having more than a few destroyers at hand.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 11, 2011, 03:43:32 pm
Nine Orions and one Hecate confirmed, more possible.  At least two were destroyed by the Colossus, the NTD Repulse and the NTD Andronicus.  The Colossus also possibly destroyed the Vasa, but we only know that it was destroyed, not by whom, at the Gamma Draconis node.

The Colossus also destroyed (with player help, among others), the NTC Majestic, NTC Refute, NTC Conquest, NTC Camisard, NTC Vanguard, NTCv Hawkwood, NTCv Congreve, and NTCv Danton.

That's just the ships in the NTF it destroyed.  Adding in Shivans, you get the SJ Sathanas, the SD Beast, of the major Shivan captial ships.  We have no idea how many smaller ships the Colossus destroyed before Their Finest Hour.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 11, 2011, 04:04:53 pm
I'd say lots, and lots. I'm surprised that the NTF even possessed a Hecate, the Hecate was like the 'image' of the GTVA, while the Orions were for the NTF.

Although now the 'image' of the GTVA is probably the Raynor. Or Auroras.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 11, 2011, 04:09:34 pm
I'd say lots, and lots. I'm surprised that the NTF even possessed a Hecate, the Hecate was like the 'image' of the GTVA, while the Orions were for the NTF.

Although now the 'image' of the GTVA is probably the Raynor. Or Auroras.

Why surprised? It was a popular rebellion, just because the Hecate was newer doesn't mean they weren't crewed by personnel willing to defect.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 11, 2011, 04:14:23 pm
I'm not sure, maybe veteran officers/battle-hardened crew are more easily swayed than fresh out of the boot camp crew, imbued full of GTVA-ness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 11, 2011, 04:19:48 pm
I'd say lots, and lots. I'm surprised that the NTF even possessed a Hecate, the Hecate was like the 'image' of the GTVA, while the Orions were for the NTF.

Although now the 'image' of the GTVA is probably the Raynor. Or Auroras.

Ten total, as of the beginning of the FS2 campaign.  See post above.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 11, 2011, 04:43:35 pm
I'd say lots, and lots. I'm surprised that the NTF even possessed a Hecate, the Hecate was like the 'image' of the GTVA, while the Orions were for the NTF.

Although now the 'image' of the GTVA is probably the Raynor. Or Auroras.

Ten total, as of the beginning of the FS2 campaign.  See post above.
That's easily half of the entire Terran armada in FS2, I believe. Scary how...Bosch is. Not to mention he has a pretty good VA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 11, 2011, 04:53:20 pm
Not realy Destiny...there's an article in the wiki about the fleetsize...look it up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 12, 2011, 12:44:28 am
There are ten confirmed GTVA Terran destroyers in the main FS2 campaign.  And we see the components of presumably approximately half of the active GTVA Terran fleets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on April 12, 2011, 04:44:52 am
returning to the dante, I was surprised when I learned that it was armed with BFReds "only", I expected them to be a scale up... How different is the dante in that case than an overgrown sathanas?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 12, 2011, 05:32:27 am
Oh, put a friendly Sathanas in front of a hostile Dante in FRED. You'll see.




Actually...well, I'm not good at explaining things, especially something as...well...simple as the Dante so the others'll do it better. I could say that it does have a fair amount of beams around it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 12, 2011, 10:23:55 am
According to the wiki 24 SRed's and 15 SAAA are like blisters on it's hull. It has 18 various flak turrets too. I'm not sure though if the BP Dante has the same equipment.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 12, 2011, 10:56:29 am
Funny thing, the Dante.

Dante vs Great Preserver: GP wins.
Dante + one Nahema vs Great Preserver: Shivans win.

How odd that a little Nahema can tip off the balance there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 12, 2011, 11:31:49 am
Strange...I safed the Vilnius and still she is called lost with all hands in the debriefing after Post Meridian^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 11:33:44 am
Strange...I safed the Vilnius and still she is called lost with all hands in the debriefing after Post Meridian^^

Yeah, there's no debriefing logic for saving it. Needs a patch.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 12, 2011, 12:28:48 pm
Interesting to think about Capella's light reaching Sol. Would be a pretty sombre astronomical sight.

Capella is 42 light years away, and War in Heaven is 20 years after it blew up. The fireworks won't reach Sol until 22 years pass... if there's anybody left to watch them, that is.

Such fireworks will be in place in other systems, and with different "time stamps" on them. It starts with a very bright spot, and then a big bluish wave starts to form. I say bluish due to the relativistic effect of the shell going at under c speeds, but it obviously depends upon the starting constitution of said shell, it's actual speed, and some calculations ;).

Inside the shell, if you could warp into it, you'd see a vacuum enlightened in red. Reddish. The same shell that is seen as bluish outside, is seen reddish inside. Simplistic, but in terms of fiction it could work. It is still lit, even after Cappella goes dark, depending on the speed of the outer shell. If the outer shell goes at almost C, then it is arguably still being lit by the Cappella star blast that happened 18 years ago, from the point of view of someone inside Cappella's system. This could arguably be true, even if there is no Cappella star anymore.

The end result would be a dark system (with an invisible and tiny black hole in the middle?), with a constant ambient reddish glow coming from everywhere. Very shivan like.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 12, 2011, 01:47:18 pm
Presum
The end result would be a dark system (with an invisible and tiny black hole in the middle?), with a constant ambient reddish glow coming from everywhere. Very shivan like.
Presuming they blew up the Capella with enough mass to form a sigularity.  Capella is a twin binary system.  Two big-ish stars and two dwarfs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 12, 2011, 02:00:39 pm
Presum
The end result would be a dark system (with an invisible and tiny black hole in the middle?), with a constant ambient reddish glow coming from everywhere. Very shivan like.
Presuming they blew up the Capella with enough mass to form a sigularity.  Capella is a twin binary system.  Two big-ish stars and two dwarfs.

No, I just presume that the end speech by admiral Petrarch in FS2 is what is supposed to happen in canon. Normal calculations on supernovae and how many stellar masses a star requires to get itself into a black hole are irrelevant here, since it's the shivans doing the work here, deploying technology to create the black hole out of a supernovae blast.

Further, in FS canon no one speaks of binary stars in Cappella :lol:

But we can always suppose they do exist (they are just too far away to be seen in FS2...)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 12, 2011, 02:25:07 pm
When in FS2 is there ever a mention of a black hole? Petrarch only talks about the destruction or the explosion of "the star capella", never mentioning a black hole.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 12, 2011, 02:29:41 pm
When in FS2 is there ever a mention of a black hole? Petrarch only talks about the destruction or the explosion of "the star capella", never mentioning a black hole.

Actual quote: "The explosion of a star might be the bridge between this universe and their own".

What kind of cosmic phenomena is out there believed to be possibly a bridge between universes? I can only count one. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 12, 2011, 02:34:18 pm
Or perhaps the shockwave works as some kind of slingshot and hurls them towards their destination?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 12, 2011, 02:44:26 pm
When in FS2 is there ever a mention of a black hole? Petrarch only talks about the destruction or the explosion of "the star capella", never mentioning a black hole.

Actual quote: "The explosion of a star might be the bridge between this universe and their own".

What kind of cosmic phenomena is out there believed to be possibly a bridge between universes? I can only count one. ;)
A black hole isn't a bridge to anything, save the next life, if you believe in something like that. It's just a ball of matter with so high gravity, that even light get's sucked into it. And with the exception of radiation bursts, something that goes in (or rather becomes part of it) never comes out of it again. All those bridge to some other place and the very name "hole" are artifacts from a time when people just didn't know what it really was.

Also you forget subspace! Blowing up a star will certainly change the gravity conditions quite severely. And as far as I konw gravity is a major factor for subspace nodes to come into being. Now granted, a black hole has massive gravity, which might aid in the creation of a "super node", but then maybe it's the chaotic conditions, after the explosion or that the node was created from a source of gravity which disappeared afterwards that makes that node usefull for the Shivans.

Or maybe the Shivans in our galaxy are lost and blowing up Capella was actually sending a signal flare through subspace, allowing the Shivans in their ancestral homes to locate the stragglers and start to build a portal towards them.

And those are just a few spontan ideas I had just now, wihtout any carefull thinking about it....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 12, 2011, 02:53:18 pm
When in FS2 is there ever a mention of a black hole? Petrarch only talks about the destruction or the explosion of "the star capella", never mentioning a black hole.

Actual quote: "The explosion of a star might be the bridge between this universe and their own".

What kind of cosmic phenomena is out there believed to be possibly a bridge between universes? I can only count one. ;)

Black Holes crush sh*t, that's all they do as far as we know. Besides we witness the Jugger fleet jumping out via subspace. Assuming it isn't an intrasystem jump, as Petrarch doesn't casually say "oh btw they're still in Capella", they must've jumped to another system entirely, suggesting at the very least they created a super node. Still it's all conjecture, all we have by way of canon is footage of the Sathanas fleet jumping out, for all we know they might very well be hiding in Capella still.

Actually here's a scary thought: perhaps the Sathanas doesn't rely on nodes for subspace travel, at least not in the same way we do. Suppose for instance, that instead of creating a supernode the Shivans jumped back to Gamma Draconis via the Cap-Gamma Drac node, without physically having to fly to the location of the node. The Shivans have demonstrated the capability to traverse nodes too unstable for Terran/Zod vessels, perhaps the same applied to the Knossos node after the portal was destroyed: a sort of residual subspacey-ness that Sathanas juggeranauts can traverse.

Re-reading all that, it ain't smart but f*ck it, it's a video game. :)

Ninja'ed: beat me to the punch on black holes and nodes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 12, 2011, 04:35:03 pm
Black Holes crush sh*t, that's all they do as far as we know.
Down to the point where there is nothing left but elementary particles.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on April 12, 2011, 04:57:08 pm
[/lurk]

Had an interesting thought, not sure if it's been discussed yet...

While the Wargods were getting wiped out at Saturn, weren't the Toutatis and Eris supposed to be engaging the Atreus and Hood? Do we have any idea how that went? Anyone care to speculate?

[lurk]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 05:03:02 pm
[/lurk]

Had an interesting thought, not sure if it's been discussed yet...

While the Wargods were getting wiped out at Saturn, weren't the Toutatis and Eris supposed to be engaging the Atreus and Hood? Do we have any idea how that went? Anyone care to speculate?

[lurk]

You will get some eyes on this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on April 12, 2011, 05:10:54 pm
. . . Weren't all the destroyers pictured, alive and well, in Sunglare?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 12, 2011, 05:19:52 pm
There are such things as nondecisive engagements.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 12, 2011, 05:52:29 pm
. . . Weren't all the destroyers pictured, alive and well, in Sunglare?

Aye they were....Steele, in his pure masculine brilliance, probably anticipated diversionary Fed attacks once they gained information on the Carthage's jump schedule. The Tevs were likely playing defence, I doubt any major assets were lost by either side, except for the Wargods and Calder's pride of course.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on April 12, 2011, 06:38:01 pm
[/lurk]

Is Sunglare actually going to end like that, once R2 is out? Unless WiH R1 and R2 are done as separate campaigns, having that credits sequence in between acts would be kind of weird.

[lurk]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 07:03:18 pm
WiH1 and WiH2 will be separate campaigns; WiH1 hit the variable limit for a campaign and thus it's a good idea to have WiH2 be a new one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 12, 2011, 08:45:17 pm
Same characters, I presume? Or somebody else will take the PC role from Laporte?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 12, 2011, 08:49:12 pm
They were outlined as one campaign so yes, same PC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 13, 2011, 05:43:47 am
Or perhaps the shockwave works as some kind of slingshot and hurls them towards their destination?
Yeah, that SCv Moloch got toasted.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 13, 2011, 06:46:53 am
Or perhaps the shockwave works as some kind of slingshot and hurls them towards their destination?
Yeah, that SCv Moloch got toasted.

I never got why the Shivans let their own kind burn like that. Juggers warp out and everything that isn't a Sathanas gets flame-grilled; how's that? The obvious answer is they really just don't care, but the fact that Shivans try and protect their assets at all makes this point somewhat mute. I remember playing the campaign first time round, all those years ago, completely stunned at the sudden rush of 80 Sathanii and the subsequent boom. They almost seemed desperate in some way.

Can't really crack this sort of stuff by typing as you think...maybe we should start a "crack BP storyline thread", collate all the wee hints and weird metaphor cargo containers to see how far we get. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 13, 2011, 08:19:50 am
I never got why the Shivans let their own kind burn like that.

Perhaps they offered to stay behind so that the Saths could jump out. Heroic sacrifice and all that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 13, 2011, 09:39:32 am
Or their jumpdrive was damaged during the battle.
The three Sath that blew up, clearly had to stay to maintain whatever they were doing for long enough to achive whatever they were trying to achive though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on April 13, 2011, 09:55:59 am
The three Sath that blew up, clearly had to stay to maintain whatever they were doing for long enough to achieve whatever they were trying to achive though.

I always thought they ran out of energy because their red glow went down. The star was clearly out of control even if they hadn't stayed.

But in the end I also think that the shivans don't care about some of their ships when the goal to be achieved is high enough (the Lucifer fleet had limited ressources - so it's normal that they protected cargo depots etc. )
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 13, 2011, 11:33:22 am
Or perhaps the shockwave works as some kind of slingshot and hurls them towards their destination?
Yeah, that SCv Moloch got toasted.
Slingshot in subspace...like... nitro in racing cars?^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 13, 2011, 12:01:51 pm
The three Sath that blew up, clearly had to stay to maintain whatever they were doing for long enough to achieve whatever they were trying to achive though.

I always thought they ran out of energy because their red glow went down. The star was clearly out of control even if they hadn't stayed.

But in the end I also think that the shivans don't care about some of their ships when the goal to be achieved is high enough (the Lucifer fleet had limited ressources - so it's normal that they protected cargo depots etc. )
I don't think they just ran out of energy. When the green energy ring sends out a shockwave, most of them switch off, but on those four (I just rewatched it, and it's four, not three) that didn't jump out, it remained on, even after that, only going out half a second before the last jumpvortex of the fleeing ones closes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 13, 2011, 12:48:08 pm
I never got why the Shivans let their own kind burn like that.

Perhaps they offered to stay behind so that the Saths could jump out. Heroic sacrifice and all that.

Humanlike thinking. You are not thinking alien-ish.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 13, 2011, 01:03:07 pm
Maybe they just don't care about being incinerated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on April 13, 2011, 01:17:50 pm
Maybe they are babyeaters.




No wait, that was something different.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 13, 2011, 01:18:21 pm
Maybe they just don't care about being incinerated.

Maybe they don't even understand the concept of "caring".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logistics on April 13, 2011, 01:28:59 pm
Maybe they just don't care about being incinerated.

Well, they should at the very least understand efficiency. If nothing else, those ships were worth time and effort to construct...or grow...or phase in from some other reality.

I'm more of the opinion that the effect of the supernova was inheirantly chaotic, and some of the Shivan 'Captains' were just a little too slow to react. It's nice to see that they can make mistakes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on April 13, 2011, 01:54:29 pm
Or maybe they have a freaking huge number of saths and losing one or two isn't really a big deal :P

Now THAT would be kinda scary. (And funny)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 13, 2011, 02:19:45 pm
Well, they should at the very least understand efficiency. If nothing else, those ships were worth time and effort to construct...or grow...or phase in from some other reality.
Maybe it's so insignificant to them that they care less about efficiency than being incinerated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 13, 2011, 03:50:36 pm
Or maybe the ones that died early gave everything they had to start the reaction that killed Capella and the ones that stayed even as they warped out were needed to keep the reaction going.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on April 13, 2011, 04:02:29 pm
You should also count the completely purposeless fight that the shivans were doing against the gtva fleets that got inevitably burned.

I think they just did it for the lulz. (Ah, you humans! You thought you had a chance? GOTC.. -- blast)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 13, 2011, 04:06:58 pm
I think blowing up Capella was extremely important to the Shivans. They wanted no risk, not any risk, that the GTVA'd have some means of stopping the Sathanases from doing what they did. Better to take precaution than risking the opponent having a plot-device to ruin the quality of your nova-able sun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 13, 2011, 04:15:27 pm
Well...Batutta had this interview with a guy from Voilution?
THere was a line that the shivans used the supernova to return to "shivan-town"...think about it...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 13, 2011, 06:10:11 pm
I think blowing up Capella was extremely important to the Shivans. They wanted no risk, not any risk, that the GTVA'd have some means of stopping the Sathanases from doing what they did. Better to take precaution than risking the opponent having a plot-device to ruin the quality of your nova-able sun.
Maybe the GTVA even did have the means to disrupt the process, naturally without knowing it. For all we know, simply opening a jumpnode too close might have upset the delicate process of whatever they were doing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 13, 2011, 06:27:30 pm
I think blowing up Capella was extremely important to the Shivans. They wanted no risk, not any risk, that the GTVA'd have some means of stopping the Sathanases from doing what they did. Better to take precaution than risking the opponent having a plot-device to ruin the quality of your nova-able sun.
Maybe the GTVA even did have the means to disrupt the process, naturally without knowing it. For all we know, simply opening a jumpnode too close might have upset the delicate process of whatever they were doing.

Dear God, imagine the repercussions if the GTVA really did manage to somehow disrupt the effect. 80 Sathanii, glassing GTVA colonies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on April 13, 2011, 06:39:20 pm
That's not a good thing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 13, 2011, 07:09:58 pm
Hopefully they'd jump off into unknown space and find a similar star. Out of sight, out of mind.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 13, 2011, 08:23:41 pm
Imagine the repercussions if the GTVA really did manage to somehow disrupt the effect. 80 Sathanii, glassing GTVA colonies.
The GTVA would seal more nodes. And then wait until they get anywhere else in the universe at the mind boggling speed of 54 km/h
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 13, 2011, 08:28:26 pm
80 Sathanii, glassing GTVA colonies.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE GRAMMAR INQUISITION.

Sathanas is a Greek word, thus the plural would not be -i!

*warp out*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 13, 2011, 08:36:36 pm
The plural is 'Sathanas juggernauts' boys
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on April 13, 2011, 08:38:54 pm
80 Sathanii, glassing GTVA colonies.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE GRAMMAR INQUISITION.

Sathanas is a Greek word, thus the plural would not be -i!

*warp out*
Not completely! Satanas is a Greek word, which means, you guessed it, Satan. Volition added the 'h' to the name.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nuclear1 on April 13, 2011, 08:49:52 pm
80 Sathanii, glassing GTVA colonies.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE GRAMMAR INQUISITION.

Sathanas is a Greek word, thus the plural would not be -i!

*warp out*
Not completely! Satanas is a Greek word, which means, you guessed it, Satan. Volition added the 'h' to the name.
Even less completely!  Sathanas is apparently a Latin word (http://www.websters-online-dictionary.net/definitions/Sathanas?cx=partner-pub-0939450753529744%3Av0qd01-tdlq&cof=FORID%3A9&ie=UTF-8&q=Sathanas&sa=Search#922), where Satanas is also an acceptable spelling!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 13, 2011, 09:11:01 pm
The plural is 'Sathanas juggernauts' boys
Or just 'juggernauts'. No other vessel, Collossus notwithstanding, responds to that classification in FS2 or BP* canon.

*I consider the Dante a 'superjuggernaut'
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on April 13, 2011, 10:48:22 pm
I thought we'd established once and for all, it's "Sathanasen."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on April 13, 2011, 10:59:34 pm
sathy jugs
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on April 13, 2011, 11:06:15 pm
I humbly submit "Sath Spam" to the running.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 14, 2011, 11:54:35 am
Big half-spider ship works too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on April 14, 2011, 12:34:28 pm
Or giant space flea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on April 14, 2011, 12:47:51 pm
Or mobile Uber-Lazor-Spam-Generator.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Venicius on April 14, 2011, 01:34:32 pm
Always looked like giant ticks to me...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 14, 2011, 07:42:18 pm
An attacking mantis actually. But with two more arms.

(http://www.anneofcarversville.com/storage/_1933375_mantis300.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on April 14, 2011, 09:16:27 pm
80 Sathanii, glassing GTVA colonies.

NOBODY EXPECTS THE GRAMMAR INQUISITION.

Sathanas is a Greek word, thus the plural would not be -i!

*warp out*

Linguistics fun time!

The -i plural ending is only used in situations where the singular ending of a noun (of Latinic/Romanic origin) is -us (I don't remember the exact declension.  Second?) like octopus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on April 14, 2011, 09:19:13 pm
So it's not like... octopuses?  :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on April 14, 2011, 09:19:28 pm
Second masculine. But there's another... fifth? whose endings are -us in the singular and the plural.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on April 15, 2011, 02:26:10 am
Anyone else run into errors loading the lunacity.pof with newer builds?

This debug log was made using v7109d:
http://pastebin.com/a8MAurKV

No assert, the game just freezes (not responding) while loading the .pof at the start of the mission. Anyone know why?

I think this means the moon dogfight is going to need to have the lunacity.pof removed. I remember being able to load the mission only sometimes with v6832r.

Tried a 2nd time and got this debug log using v7109d:
http://pastebin.com/3D7c3Ea8

Got an assert regarding insufficient data on the ibx... Don't know what that means.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 15, 2011, 02:38:38 am
I am not exactly sure why this fails for you, but please download the attached model and place it in blueplanet2\data\models.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 15, 2011, 03:15:32 am
After switching to the new build I had some problems with that too. Try to load up the model in the techroom, so the game can create the cache files for it (took a little over five minutes for me), after that the mission would load fine again on my computer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on April 15, 2011, 06:58:16 pm
Fixed with the help of E. It's not an error really... the model just takes a really long time to load all its cache files to the gpu. Computer even goes into (Not Responding) while it works.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on April 16, 2011, 04:13:12 am
hmm, do recent computers have that long a time to load those models?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 16, 2011, 04:34:57 am
Recent builds have a different format for cache files. That means that the cache files we shipped with WiH aren't valid anymore, and that the engine has to regenerate them. This will take some time, especially for the more complex models. And yes, this can still take quite a long time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on April 16, 2011, 12:50:54 pm
But only the first time it is loaded. Once the cache files are created, the loading time isn't bad at all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on April 17, 2011, 09:20:01 am
Letting people know that those who want to do anything with the Luna city model (making a giant super beam cannon for example) should download the one that The E attached, as it's got less mesh holes than the one that's in the modpack.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on April 17, 2011, 10:36:44 am
Letting people know that those who want to do anything with the Luna city model (making a giant super beam cannon for example) should download the one that The E attached, as it's got less mesh holes than the one that's in the modpack.

You see, I've turned the moon into what I like to call a "Death Star".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mith86arg on April 18, 2011, 08:45:10 am
Thnx for the Blue Planet AoA and Bp WiH capaings guys... they are just, awesome, i can stop playing 'em.
 
Keep the good work! hope u release a VA add on for WiH some day  :rolleyes:

Thnx again! long live to the team of this project
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on April 18, 2011, 08:55:00 am
You see, I've turned the moon into what I like to call a "Death Star".

Well, was referring to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3FHN_3INDY) but yours gives a better mental image :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 18, 2011, 01:55:15 pm
You see, I've turned the moon into what I like to call a "Death Star".

Well, was referring to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3FHN_3INDY) but yours gives a better mental image :D

How about this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQ2VSpVA_4 :D

Ahem! But back on topic. Sorry!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Insomniac34 on April 19, 2011, 03:07:51 pm
Hey guys, is there any somewhat simple way to increase the distance that the Bellophoron and Chimera corvettes' blue beam emitters disappear? It's annoying and ugly every time they blatantly disappear after a distance. I'd like to be able to make it infinite, or at least expand the draw distance immensely.

thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 19, 2011, 03:10:27 pm
I think you can change the LOD distance in the tables (bp-shp.tbm in the blueplanet files).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on April 19, 2011, 03:29:18 pm
You can either change that LOD distance indeed, or alter the pof itself by duplicating the turrets into lower LODs. Or a mix of both, even.

Isn't that supposed to be addressed into WiH2 ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on April 19, 2011, 05:10:57 pm
You see, I've turned the moon into what I like to call a "Death Star".

Well, was referring to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3FHN_3INDY) but yours gives a better mental image :D

How about this one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQ2VSpVA_4 :D

Ahem! But back on topic. Sorry!
*Gasps in fascination* :eek:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-LoW on April 20, 2011, 02:55:22 am
That deathstar is just a background texture... right? :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on April 20, 2011, 08:02:23 am
It would've killed Sara's computer if it wasn't, I think.
Unless the SCP stealthily managed to add tessellation to FS2
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 20, 2011, 10:38:14 am
It's a skai-boox!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: swashmebuckle on April 20, 2011, 08:54:04 pm
That's pretty freaking cool right there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rscaper1070 on April 21, 2011, 12:36:31 am
You should hire her.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on April 21, 2011, 08:34:57 am
Das ist very, very cool
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on April 22, 2011, 07:58:01 pm
I didn't say I drew it! I just found a proper death star art, added filters and shadowing to make it fade into the background and stomped it into a skybox! Oh geez.. :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on April 22, 2011, 10:18:28 pm
You'll never know how awesome things can warp people's perception...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on April 27, 2011, 05:07:18 am
Anything that has something to do with Star Wars is like a drug to us...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on April 27, 2011, 08:47:06 am
moar drug for ya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aDJFHU_zzA
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on April 27, 2011, 11:19:08 am
moar drug for ya: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aDJFHU_zzA

:lol: That is genius.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 02, 2011, 08:52:28 am
Right, I don't want to use my own opinion, but...

How does the GTVA like their threat exigency stuff, used against real Shivans? Did the end result of the threat exigency thingy work as expected? Was there room for improvement? Did it fail horribly?

The GTVA's pre-Sol invasion doctrine was never engineered for fighting the UEF in mind. So...I don't want to factor them in, because they're unrelated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 02, 2011, 08:58:29 am
Well, the 14th performed admirably in the alternate universe even in the face of overwhelming Shivan attack, but those Shivans were still operating at somewhere between FS1 and FS2 tactics and technology levels.

There's no telling how new doctrine will perform in a notional third incursion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Insomniac34 on May 02, 2011, 08:59:15 am
Right, I don't want to use my own opinion, but...

How does the GTVA like their threat exigency stuff, used against real Shivans? Did the end result of the threat exigency thingy work as expected? Was there room for improvement? Did it fail horribly?

The GTVA's pre-Sol invasion doctrine was never engineered for fighting the UEF in mind. So...I don't want to factor them in, because they're unrelated.

Well, the TEI ships laid a severe beatdown on most standard Shivan forces in AoA. They still were heavily outmatched by superdestroyers and juggernauts, however. Something tells me that a defensive operation, a la Capella in FS2, would be far more succesful with the new ships. Shock jumping Chimeras and Bellaphorons, subspace missile strikes, precision jumping, better and faster fighters, even more destroyers with HUGE hangar bays (the Titan), more powerful beams, ship-ship missiles, expanded logistics capabilities with the GTL Anemoi, and who even KNOWS what came of any recovered ETAK data, as far as potentially disrupting Shivan communications and jamming their weapons is concerned. Also, I am sure plenty more was learned about subspace travel via the whole rebuilding-a-knossos operation, so the GTVA could very well have extremely advanced subspace tracking, able to detect Shivan ships way before they even appear. And who even knows what the Vasudans have come up with militarily...

The possibilities are endless, really.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 02, 2011, 09:00:29 am
Right, I don't want to use my own opinion, but...

How does the GTVA like their threat exigency stuff, used against real Shivans? Did the end result of the threat exigency thingy work as expected? Was there room for improvement? Did it fail horribly?

TEI succeeded, in that it gave the GTVA a new, more powerful and more flexible fleet. Its success can be seen when you look at the 14h Battlegroup, and how it was able to cope with being stranded in another universe all of a sudden, defeating a Sathanas, a Lucifer, and a number of Destroyers over the course of a few days.

Quote
The GTVA's pre-Sol invasion doctrine was never engineered for fighting the UEF in mind. So...I don't want to factor them in, because they're unrelated.

Okay, you may want to clarify that statement a bit, because I have no idea what it is you're trying to say.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on May 02, 2011, 09:54:08 am
I think his point is that the ships weren't developed with the UEF in mind.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on May 02, 2011, 11:25:42 am
true, but remember the vishnans helped: the orestes would not have lasted long against the lucifer...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 02, 2011, 11:49:15 am
The Lucifer, a demon and several smaller ships. And we don't know how many ships the Orestes and consorts destroyed before Bei rode in with the Vishnans.
That they were able to drive the Lucifer away several times (they wouldn't say "everytime we manage to damage it, it jumps" if they did it only twice) and not lose any ships in the process shows how good those ships and crews are.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on May 02, 2011, 01:52:54 pm
Plus, Lucifer aside, these were the ships that managed to quickly destroy a Sathanas Juggernaut with minimal losses, using the tactics they were built to take advantage of (shock jumps), again not to mention the potentially vast amount of other Shivan craft the Orestes and Temeraire took out offscreen. And they arguably had even less intel to work off of than the forces in the SSI.

These TEI ships are the real deal, and I think its more then safe to say their designers achieved their objectives.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 02, 2011, 02:51:55 pm
I agree.... untill the Shivans adapt anyway, but I guess we'll see in BP 3.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leuthesius on May 02, 2011, 07:51:40 pm
Just finished AoA.

I'm so very glad that I grabbed an Ares instead of the Eriynes (sp) fighter. Did you know that an Ares can survive a direct impact with a Shivan Cruiser's primary beam cannon? I finished the final mission with 1% hull and no sensors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on May 02, 2011, 07:52:58 pm
What difficulty
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leuthesius on May 02, 2011, 08:08:35 pm
No idea. Whatever standard is. I haven't played with the difficulty settings.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on May 02, 2011, 08:19:53 pm
Easy, then. which means you have twice as much HP as you actually have due to 50% damage reduction.
So, it would actually have killed you almost twice over :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leuthesius on May 02, 2011, 08:21:56 pm
Probably. It's just the only fighter I've ever stared straight into a main beam and gotten shot and lived. I went from 100% to 1%. Pow! I lol'd.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 03, 2011, 12:22:48 am
The Lucifer, a demon and several smaller ships. And we don't know how many ships the Orestes and consorts destroyed before Bei rode in with the Vishnans.

Even after Bei and the Vishnans come in, the Hyde tends to get destroyed by the Boreas, because everyone else is busy dealing with the Lucifer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryu Gemini on May 11, 2011, 11:14:12 pm
So whatever was the reason for Capella's Supernova in the Blue Planet continuity anyway? 

I mean, in the standard one (without the preservers or the specific reason for Shivans existing), it is speculated as being for opening a way back home (maybe to "shivantown"). 

But that doesn't really work in Blue Planet, considering both the revealed purpose of the shivans as well as their nature. 

Spoiler:
At the end of AoA, the dialogue between the great preserver and that Dante makes it seem as though they are both "higher plane" entities (at the least, the Vishnans are from the experiences Bei has with them).  I don't know what manner of requirements are in place for either side to "inject" new ships into the universe from their own realm, but any way I can think of to involve Capella only leads to me questioning why the shivans would "open up" that area when they already had enough juggernauts to wipe the area clean, especially if "opening up" that star would have also allowed the Vishnans to begin sending ships into that region of the universe. 



Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on May 12, 2011, 02:47:21 am
I never got hit by a Rakshasa beam before though, but I know a Deimos and Diomedes beam is an instant death.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 12, 2011, 03:34:22 pm
In the BP continuity the blowing up of the star might have been a warning to the GTVA.
"Know that we can even blow up your stars. There is no place were you can hide and you can't defeat us, so behave yourself or die!"

Also any information about the Vishnans existing outside of the universes and only projecting themselfs into one of their choosing comes directly from them. Information that they pretty much loaded directly into the receipients brain, before his mind was plugged out of his body and either transplanted or projected into a ship. Who can tell what else they did with Beis brain in the process....

That's why I think we don't know wether Beis information is really true. And even if it is, we still wouldn't know if the Shivans are the same, or "only" a corporeal species fully dependant on subspace to travel around and get in reinforcements, wether they come from another sunsystem, galaxy or reality.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 13, 2011, 05:25:02 am
I never got hit by a Rakshasa beam before though.

I have, in retail. Instant death, even on Very Easy, flying a Seth.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 13, 2011, 06:41:23 am
This is the most frustrating thing...rushing towards a shivan capship, maxim blazing away at their beamcannons...and all the sudden BAM, it simply smacks you up^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 13, 2011, 07:20:30 am
So...why don't you guys fly out of beam firing arcs on approach? Like approaching from another direction (does not apply to Deimos).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on May 13, 2011, 07:38:46 am
This is the most frustrating thing...rushing towards a shivan capship, maxim blazing away at their beamcannons...and all the sudden BAM, it simply smacks you up^^
All you need to do is to "avoid the beam and you won't get hit, pilot." :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 13, 2011, 08:27:13 am
Floating 50m in front of the beam cannon is my thing^^
but the best thing to disable a beam are two trebs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 13, 2011, 09:00:24 am
So...why don't you guys fly out of beam firing arcs on approach? Like approaching from another direction (does not apply to Deimos).

I was doing something similar to this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=COWg869CXlg). :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 13, 2011, 09:18:25 am
Well Rakshasa beams are...rather small so I understand where you're coming from. Been skewered myself by BFReds as well, nothing out of the ordinary.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on May 15, 2011, 07:53:22 am
(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/1216/stealthuriel.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/829/stealthuriel.png/)


Stealthy Uriel ftw. But what is the meaning of this. I redownloaded the visuals and it didn't helped.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 15, 2011, 07:56:45 am
Please post an fs2_open.log.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on May 15, 2011, 08:53:46 am
Here is it.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 15, 2011, 08:56:24 am
Mmmm ... so the UEF has Coalition cloaking technology. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 15, 2011, 09:06:37 am
Code: [Select]
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\SathMod.vp' with a checksum of 0x42fb4bfa
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\shiva.vp' with a checksum of 0xba89429b
...
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\SathMod.vp' with a checksum of 0x42fb4bfa
...
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\SathMod.vp' with a checksum of 0x42fb4bfa

You really only need that pack once.

AS for the error that ends the log, I have no idea about that. Seems that some tbl somewhere is wrong.

As for the invisible Uhlan, it looks like the textures for that model haven't been loaded, try loading it up in the F3 lab in a debug build to see what happens.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jeff Vader on May 15, 2011, 09:11:27 am
Err, how well do adv visuals and a GeForce 7900 GS go together?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on May 15, 2011, 09:48:48 am
Err, how well do adv visuals and a GeForce 7900 GS go together?
They work very good, I've played this mod before, everything was working fine.

Problem solved. I've tried to implement another mod into Blue Planet 2 and it caused trouble.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 12:32:58 pm
*ping* I'm curious, really. Why was the Ranvir armed with Hydras in Collateral Damage? Artillery units are supposed to be horrible at close range combat. It wasn't a fair fight for the Idomeneus just because the Deimos had the advantage of jumping in close enough so that the Apocalypse couldn't engage it.






...well it's probably going to be hand-waved as plot progression or that the Ranvir was testing out new missiles, no point asking in the beginning...but that's not the spirit, so I'd like to know why, in terms of FRED or how the team wanted the whole thing to progress.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 22, 2011, 12:43:59 pm
Maybe they can switch missiles if the need arise. They would keep hydras on board for this kind of situation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 22, 2011, 02:33:31 pm
Re-read the tech description.
Quote
Hydra missiles are now in limited but expanding deployment aboard all ships that are outfitted with the Hwacha or Hwacha Mk 2 missile launchers, but are generally used only in emergencies, or when the ship has depleted its store of Apocalypse torpedoes.
They're switchable on the same launchers than the Apos. However, since they are efficient at closer range only and have less DPS than the Apos, they're used only in situation where the enemies PDS are overwhelming or all Apos have already been launched.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 07:11:42 pm
Guess the Ranvir was lucky to have Hydras loaded after jumping away from Artemis.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 22, 2011, 07:22:20 pm
Guess the Ranvir was lucky to have Hydras loaded after jumping away from Artemis.

Why is luck necessary? The Hydra is basically inferior to the Apocalypse in every way except for its ability to saturate point defenses at close range. Using them in a knife fight just makes sense - the big artillery Apocalypses can't track well there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on May 22, 2011, 07:26:45 pm
Hydras make such pretty fireworks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 07:33:46 pm
Guess the Ranvir was lucky to have Hydras loaded after jumping away from Artemis.

Why is luck necessary? The Hydra is basically inferior to the Apocalypse in every way except for its ability to saturate point defenses at close range. Using them in a knife fight just makes sense - the big artillery Apocalypses can't track well there.
If the Ranvir happened to be (still) loaded with Apocalypses after jumping out of Artemis and ambushed, it certainly would've been destroyed. The crew nonetheless would be quite shaken by their defeat at Artemis, and even the best of commanders would think 'what could I have done better', for many times at once.



...which reminds me, there are lots of discrepancies with the nameplates and FRED-given names in BP-00. What happened? Conflicts in naming?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 22, 2011, 07:44:31 pm
Guess the Ranvir was lucky to have Hydras loaded after jumping away from Artemis.

Why is luck necessary? The Hydra is basically inferior to the Apocalypse in every way except for its ability to saturate point defenses at close range. Using them in a knife fight just makes sense - the big artillery Apocalypses can't track well there.
If the Ranvir happened to be (still) loaded with Apocalypses after jumping out of Artemis and ambushed, it certainly would've been destroyed. The crew nonetheless would be quite shaken by their defeat at Artemis, and even the best of commanders would think 'what could I have done better', for many times at once.

Or, you know, they could have just switched magazine cells to the Hydras when they had to deal with a hostile in close. Not the hardest thing in the world.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 08:20:17 pm
Guess the Ranvir was lucky to have Hydras loaded after jumping away from Artemis.

Why is luck necessary? The Hydra is basically inferior to the Apocalypse in every way except for its ability to saturate point defenses at close range. Using them in a knife fight just makes sense - the big artillery Apocalypses can't track well there.
If the Ranvir happened to be (still) loaded with Apocalypses after jumping out of Artemis and ambushed, it certainly would've been destroyed. The crew nonetheless would be quite shaken by their defeat at Artemis, and even the best of commanders would think 'what could I have done better', for many times at once.

Or, you know, they could have just switched magazine cells to the Hydras when they had to deal with a hostile in close. Not the hardest thing in the world.
Exactly, but it's an ambush for a reason, at least it seemed like one with Deimos corvettes and Aeolus cruisers all over the place. Unless the Ranvir was drilled to switch to Hydras at the speed of light every time they jumped out, time would be needed to switch missiles. Even three seconds is enough for a beam cannon to charge up and fire.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 22, 2011, 08:24:57 pm
 :wtf:

You seem to be operating under the impression that the battle began at the moment the Navaja Alpha wing arrived on the scene. The engagement had been underway before that, and there was time enough to switch cells.

Even if it had been thirty seconds or more (probably more), a Deimos carries TerSlashes. They're not going to hull a Narayana very quickly. Why do you think the three seconds required for a beam cannon to charge up and fire is any kind of problem when a Narayana can survive many many beam weapon hits?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 22, 2011, 08:47:32 pm
I also think the Ranvir would have been destroyed anyway? It fired Apocalypse torpedos at Serkr, but Serkr destroyed the Nara anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 22, 2011, 08:51:33 pm
Yeah, I'm really not sure what he's talking about. He thinks it's unfair that a warship in a war switched to a more effective weapon for the tactical situation it was in?  :wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 08:52:52 pm
Well I'm confident of the Narayana's hull strength against TerSlashes, but slash beams slashing the Narayana all over is bound to blow up something in the long run, like one of the missile launchers. I'm not sure what the subsystems and turrets the TerSlash on the right of the Ranvir could be hit. I'm not really a coder so I've never delved into how strong the Narayana's subsystem/turret strength are.

Well, it's probably not unfair now that I've been presented with the full details. I'm losing coherence in what I'm saying, I think. I was basing off before the mission started, i.e. after the Ranvir jumps out and the Navajas are still at the Solaris.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 22, 2011, 09:03:39 pm
Well, we watched the Narayana switch back from Hydras to Apocalypse torpedos in less than a minute, so I assume it could have done the same as soon as it was under attack.

As for losing missile launchers, even now, they're pretty easy to armor; it's a tube with a lid. You can probably make the lid out of unobtainium in the future.

As for the Ranvir surviving Serkr, I'm pretty sure they're able to destroy a full strength Narayana in one burst, but don't quote me on that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 09:11:11 pm
Hmm, the Idomeneus must've gotten a good six/eight/twelve TerSlashes if the Ranvir was changing torpedoes.

The Serkr has Eight MBlues and one BBlue...wow they do over 150k+ damage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 22, 2011, 09:29:37 pm
Hmm, the Idomeneus must've gotten a good six/eight/twelve TerSlashes if the Ranvir was changing torpedoes.

The Serkr has Eight MBlues and one BBlue...wow they do over 150k+ damage.

That they do. . . IDK what kind of armor the Nara packs though.

And you can't presume how long it takes to change torpedos. . .
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 09:57:54 pm
Well, under a minute...could be 59 seconds, 30, 10. Well, speculation is fun. Although armor does matter much. Perhaps the Nara uses 'frigate armor', although I've no idea what it is (error dialog popped up stating it). Man, GTVA Command is slow at adapting their doctrines. Only a few of the Capella-era ships have pulse weapons, even then the Cardinal and Regensburg still had to retreat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 22, 2011, 10:02:11 pm
I somehow doubt most federal ships we see in WiH are armored against beams, as beams, particularly those of the blue "**** off" variety, seem to kill Feds rather quickly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 22, 2011, 10:06:56 pm
You're right on that somewhat...although I noticed the Renjian didn't get instantly skewered by the 14th Battlegroup. It took some (quite a few) beam hits, fired off some mass driver and gauss cannon rounds, then exploded.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on May 22, 2011, 10:15:45 pm
The Karuna is also a damn tough ship for it's size, something that seems to be standard doctrine for UEF vessels save for the Sanctus. The Renjian was also, IIRC, only taking fire from the Orestes and even then was in a weird spot that precluded use of the Raynor's main gun. Still went down fairly fast under those circumstances.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 22, 2011, 10:25:51 pm
I think Tev vessels are actually slightly tougher - the Deimos has IIRC the same armor and 5,000 fewer hitpoints than the Karuna, at roughly 2/3rds the size, the Diomedes is comparable.

The Bellerophon is a beast.

I'm curious what armor setting the UEDs are going to use typically.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on May 23, 2011, 12:29:35 am
I think Tev vessels are actually slightly tougher - the Deimos has IIRC the same armor and 5,000 fewer hitpoints than the Karuna, at roughly 2/3rds the size, the Diomedes is comparable.

Really? I thought  Karuna's always seemed like they took metric ****tons more punishment than Tev Corvettes. Not a measly 5k hitpoints.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 23, 2011, 12:59:22 am
They have special armour plating, I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 23, 2011, 01:13:34 am
They mostly use Heavy Armor 100 (which is the same as all the other cap ships) given certain situations though, they use heavier armor. So do all the other ships in the game (essentially).

The Carthage is merely the most notable example.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on May 23, 2011, 01:44:55 am
Really? I thought  Karuna's always seemed like they took metric ****tons more punishment than Tev Corvettes. Not a measly 5k hitpoints.
Hitpoints in WiH aren't static. Ships take as much punishment as is needed for a mission to play out well. You can chalk it under cinematic gameplay and rule of cool.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 23, 2011, 03:16:08 am
Yeah. Armor magic rules.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Regent on May 23, 2011, 03:21:57 am
Given the GTVA's emphasis on emulating Shivan shock-jump tactics, why does the Titan do -just- enough damage to not kill a standard enemy destroyer at 100,000 HP in a single salvo, like the Ravana? A Hyperion could tag along to finish off the job, but it seems like a liability to have to take additional ships that could be useful elsewhere. In the 25 seconds it takes for the Titan to reload (or recharge) its beams, the enemy could have jumped out or counterattacked.

Also btw excellent job with AoA and WiH - they are both great campaigns.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 03:31:34 am
Game balance or to allow plot development without needing to make new beams that'll have that particular ship survive, I guess. Well my theory is rubbish. For me, I think the idea is that the beams and their damage potentials were created first.




Then after that, they thought about what the beams were supposed to be fired at.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 23, 2011, 03:32:30 am
In in-mission situations, the enemy destroyer would have active armor reducing some of the damage anyway. In BP, ship vs ship battle aren't determined purely by table stats. You can also expect the bomber complement or escorting warships to finish it off anyway, you never send a destroyer alone.

The GTVA's doctrine tend to favour hunter-killer corvette teams such as Serkr to take down destroyers and above. Destroyers are a too high-value target to risk if you don't have to.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Regent on May 23, 2011, 03:44:09 am
If a Titan jumps in 3 kilometres from a target and fires while launching bombers, the target could have charged its drives and jumped before the bombers covered the distance.

However chances are the destroyer's escorts would finish it off anyway so I guess it wouldn't really make a big difference in combat.

Also do Shivan ships have active armor or those HP-regenerating nanomachines found on the UEF ships? The GTVA is geared around combating the Shivan threat, and the UEF should be nothing more than a short-term disturbance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 23, 2011, 03:55:48 am
those HP-regenerating nanomachines found on the UEF ships?
err... wut ?

I remember damage control teams, but nothing about nanomachines. Are you mistaking with Inferno or something ?

the UEF should be nothing more than a short-term disturbance.
A faction able to face the full might of the battle-hardened GTVA for 18 months, with a third of their forces, crews that have never seen real battle and a budget that wasn't focused on warfare at all compared to their foe, sounds a little more than a short-term disturbance to me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Regent on May 23, 2011, 04:08:42 am
Just checked The Blade Itself... it was some damage control sealant, not nanomachines. Silly me.

About the UEF - maybe not a minor disturbance, but it isn't what the GTVA is 'meant' to fight. The Alliance probably expected them (the UEF) to fall much easier and underestimated them, but they are still (technically) a short-term enemy - The Threat Exigency Initiative is meant to counter the Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 04:18:50 am
Matt, if the GTVA was fighting at 'full might' the UEF would fall in a week, if not a day. Committing every single ship, pilot and marine in the Terran arm of the GTVA. That, is half might. If you toss in the Vasudans at total war, that is full might.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 23, 2011, 04:23:07 am
Quote
Also do Shivan ships have active armor or those HP-regenerating nanomachines found on the UEF ships?
So far there is no instance of the Shivans using something like that.
But the thing with the Shivans is, you can never tell what they really are capable of. Every time you think you have seen the worst and have the upper hand, they bring up something new and devastating to beat you back into the dirt.
Also there would be the tech room entries on their weapons. They all seem to have some limiters installed, preventing them from using the full power they could have. Wether this is a self-imposed measure on part of the Shivans or a case were they are using conquered/gifted technology they don't fully understand is anyones guess for now.

Matt, if the GTVA was fighting at 'full might' the UEF would fall in a week, if not a day. Committing every single ship, pilot and marine in the Terran arm of the GTVA. That, is half might. If you toss in the Vasudans at total war, that is full might.
While you are correct in this, the GTVA did send battle hardened veterans and their very best ships against the UEF. While they could theoretically send a whole lot more forces into Sol (practically they can't muster much more than they already did, due to reasons discussed at length in other threads), they already got their elite in that conflic and lost many veteran pilots to the superiour UEF fighers early on untill they changed their tactics.
So while you are correct, the intent of Matts post (that the UEF is far more than just a small annoyance) is also correct, even though the wording was off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Regent on May 23, 2011, 04:30:24 am
Anyway the GTVA was fighting with its hands tied by avoiding a total war situation. If they really wanted the Sol system at any cost, they could have jumped straight to Earth and Mars orbit with 10, or 20 destroyers and blasted every logistical installation and planetside settlement larger than a village. If the UEF doesn't surrender outright they (the GTVA) could then retreat to the node and blockade it until the UEF metaphorically bleeds to death.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 23, 2011, 06:27:12 am
The GTVA really can't do that. To mobilize all those forces means weakening the "anti-shivan garisons". Now couple that with the strained relations with the Vasudans, the economic and political situation back in GTVA home terretory and they'd have massive riots all over the place and an end to the alliance with the Vasudans. And if they aren't damn carefull in the negotiations maybe even a new terran vasudan war.
Also they wage this war to aquire the industrial capacities of the Sol system. To blow it all to hell is the last thing they'd want to do.

And that is, if the ship crews even go along with that "plan" rather than refuse or outright defect. There've got to be several ten thousand of civilians or more on those stations after all and the GTVA knows that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on May 23, 2011, 06:32:53 am
Not to mention it'd be utter chaos with the UEF shoving Durgas down every GTVA destroyer's throat. It'd win the war militarily, but there would be massive losses and who knows what the political fallout on the GTVA side would be. So that wouldn't achieve much at all.



It'd make a beast series of missions though. :3
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 06:40:34 am
I've a feeling Durgas don't like bunched up GTM Trebuchets...for some reason.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 23, 2011, 06:52:35 am
All pilots have been through counter-Treb training, at least by the time of WiH. Especially elite pilots flying rare and critical ships like Durgas.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on May 23, 2011, 06:56:41 am
Mate, every pilot goes through counter missile training. It's a matter of A) chance, B) experience, and C) training. And hell, we've all been through counter-missile training in the TSM before you join the 107th yet I guarantee every one of us has been hit by a missile at some point after that in our FS careers. :P

I mean, every pilot gets training in landing yet we still have instances where pilots mess it up every now and again. Bottom line being that training isn't insurance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 23, 2011, 07:51:48 am
Yeah, but Durgas aren't Uhlans or Artemises. Contrary to the GTVA, the UEF doesn't build masses of bombers and throw expendable pilots with a third the training of their fighter pilots in their cockpits.

Given the number of Durgas in service and their tactical weight, we're talking here about elite pilots, probably among the finest of the UEF. I don't think they fear a few trebs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on May 23, 2011, 07:53:29 am
Plus in missions that currently use the Durga don't they have Plot Armor?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Regent on May 23, 2011, 08:10:23 am
The ones that attacked Serkr team were cut to pieces, so not all Durgas have plot armor.

Then again Serkr has plot armor even thicker than that of most destroyers. They won't go down without a (really impressive) bang and plenty of pent-up UEF emotion, and Durga's aren't spectacular enough nor can they put up enough fireworks to destroy them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on May 23, 2011, 08:12:16 am
Yeah, but Durgas aren't Uhlans or Artemises. Contrary to the GTVA, the UEF doesn't build masses of bombers and throw expendable pilots with a third the training of their fighter pilots in their cockpits.

Given the number of Durgas in service and their tactical weight, we're talking here about elite pilots, probably among the finest of the UEF. I don't think they fear a few trebs.
You'd think so, but as I said before,  chance plays a great role. Remember that Scott Speicher was an Lt. Cmdr at the time of his death, undoubtedly an experienced operator in the F/A-18, yet he was shot down by a surface to air missile, a threat that these pilots often trained day in and day out on in their training 'blocks'. The same applies to pilots of any aircraft, a potent missile is a potent missile.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 23, 2011, 08:33:14 am
The ones that attacked Serkr team were cut to pieces, so not all Durgas have plot armor.

Then again Serkr has plot armor even thicker than that of most destroyers. They won't go down without a (really impressive) bang and plenty of pent-up UEF emotion, and Durga's aren't spectacular enough nor can they put up enough fireworks to destroy them.

Don't you think that's kind of a big assumption to make?

Anyway the GTVA was fighting with its hands tied by avoiding a total war situation. If they really wanted the Sol system at any cost, they could have jumped straight to Earth and Mars orbit with 10, or 20 destroyers and blasted every logistical installation and planetside settlement larger than a village. If the UEF doesn't surrender outright they (the GTVA) could then retreat to the node and blockade it until the UEF metaphorically bleeds to death.

This, too?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on May 23, 2011, 08:38:58 am
It's all a matter of when (or if) the GTVA makes a Trebuchet successor which explodes NEAR it's target. :P

Quote from: Regent
Anyway the GTVA was fighting with its hands tied by avoiding a total war situation. If they really wanted the Sol system at any cost, they could have jumped straight to Earth and Mars orbit with 10, or 20 destroyers and blasted every logistical installation and planetside settlement larger than a village. If the UEF doesn't surrender outright they (the GTVA) could then retreat to the node and blockade it until the UEF metaphorically bleeds to death.

Heared this more than once, it's been answered more than once also. You cannot draw away the whole armada of the GTVA from their positions (they don't have a 100 destroyers to spare). There's no use conquering Sol at the cost of destroying every large settlement, not even the GTVA can cover up genocide on such a scale. They'd not want to as they probably intent to bring the Solarian terrans back into the fray against the Shivans once those return. If they would destroye massive settlements It'd devastate the GTVA terrans politically, heck the Vasudans may jump them out of moral considerations or otherwise pre-emptively fearing that if the Terrans would destroye whole cities of their own kind, they are an insane danger that may at any moment repeat the same trick on Vasudankind (probably with even fewer reservations) if the alliance destabilizes. Besides, the GTVA doesn't know when the Shivans will be here and if they're watching. For all they know the Shivans may be waiting until the GTVA has hole in it's defense. We all saw what happened when that occured in Freespace 1. They won't be surprised a second time, as we saw in 'Lion at the Door' in Freespace 2, where the GTVA immediatly sent in two ships to secure the gate pronto, by having sufficient forces at hand and nearby.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 23, 2011, 08:57:29 am
Given the GTVA's emphasis on emulating Shivan shock-jump tactics, why does the Titan do -just- enough damage to not kill a standard enemy destroyer at 100,000 HP in a single salvo, like the Ravana? A Hyperion could tag along to finish off the job, but it seems like a liability to have to take additional ships that could be useful elsewhere. In the 25 seconds it takes for the Titan to reload (or recharge) its beams, the enemy could have jumped out or counterattacked.

You're assuming that beams could somehow magically be made to do more damage in the setting.

If you look at the way Titans and Raynors actually engage in offensive combat everywhere they're seen in BP, you'll have your answer.

Game balance or to allow plot development without needing to make new beams that'll have that particular ship survive, I guess. Well my theory is rubbish. For me, I think the idea is that the beams and their damage potentials were created first.

Then after that, they thought about what the beams were supposed to be fired at.

The way the blue beams are designed creates a tactical dynamic which helps support one of BP's main combined-arms themes. Why do you assume it's some kind of mistake?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 09:21:47 am
It certainly isn't a mistake if combined arms actually works properly. There's always a reason for the SBlue to have 6k+ range, and a recharge time of 40secs, and the BBlue of 8k+ range, and a recharge time of 30secs.

In FS2, capital ships were usually deployed alone, even the pilots called the two-ship Mentu-Sobek 'fleet' Command sent  on the mission before the Bastion mission "You call this a fleet?!". In BP it's more different. A corvette can be supported by a cruiser or two to complement it's anti-warship firepower, instead of having to drag another corvette along which could be put to better use elsewhere in the system. I don't see any mistakes here.





...well the Serkr team is a more extreme version...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on May 23, 2011, 09:27:19 am
I'd complain if there was a Mentu covering anything in the battlezone too, they're nothing more than cannon fodder; ineffective against most anything.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 09:31:45 am
I suppose the Vasudans would've outfitted Mentu cruisers with Vasudan pulse weapons, light ones to serve as escorts from incoming bombs. They're good meatshields too (60k!).




Oh yeah, technology-wise, how feasible is it to incorporate blue beams into ships from the green beam era? Putting TerSlashBlue and TerSlashBlueAAA on Deimos corvettes was quite a light show. Would it take a lot of reconfiguring? Changing the beam emitter themselves only (Changing the beam cannon itself is a given...)?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 23, 2011, 09:38:08 am
There were Deimos with TerSlashBlue? If so that's probably a mistake. It's not feasible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 23, 2011, 09:40:08 am
It is more I think.
You need properbly new reactors, energy conduits and all this fancy stuff.
I think thats the reason, why the Carthage is a combat evaluation destroyer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 09:48:12 am
Oh, should've said 'FREDding Deimos corvettes with TerSlashBlue and...' instead. Always thought that changing the green beam cannons and the green beam emitters would do the job. Perhaps you gotta cut the hull open, brrr.

So I'm curious, how does one get radiation poisoning from Helios detonations? Antimatter is pretty clean. The Darkest Hour has a lot of information and if appropriate, 'goodies'.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 23, 2011, 09:50:29 am
We had a discussion about it on IRC a couple of days ago (good timing) and the leading theory is, green beams were made to be easily compatible with old spaceframes and energy grids (even medical frigates carry them !) at the expense of power output, while the Capella-era Vasudan beams and the blue beams need the ship to be specifically designed for them - for the Zods, it's pretty obvious since only new ships carry them, aside from the Typhon who is said to have power grid compatibility issues with them ; for the blue beams, we have yet to see any Capella-era ship outfitted with them (even the fully retrofitted, full of new tech Carthage used good old BGreens and Terslashes), and tech entries hint at the fact green beams use fusion reactors, while blue beams use meson reactors.

What we can only speculate about if what new-gen Zod ships use. Have the zods opted for compatibility with older ships ? We already know that they have retrofitted at least some Capella-era ships with pulse weaponry (to be noted that retrofitting Capella-era tev ships with pulse weaponry is also undergoing). Or will they use the same meson-based blue beams as the terrans, or a custom version based on a similar tech, for use only on their new-gen designs ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 09:55:24 am
Hmm, I see. I suppose you could generalize that green beams are low-powered but easier on the reactor, hard to get powerful damage outputs even when overloaded due to fusion reactors being 'weak' in comparison to meson reactors, but easier to refuel because they've gotten lots and lots of gas from the nebula before Capella blew up, while blue beams are...uhh...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 23, 2011, 10:32:22 am
So I'm curious, how does one get radiation poisoning from Helios detonations? Antimatter is pretty clean.

No it's not, not at all. There are no fission byproducts and fewer neutrons or x-rays, but the gamma emissions are obscene.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 23, 2011, 10:49:44 am
What we can only speculate about if what new-gen Zod ships use. Have the zods opted for compatibility with older ships ? We already know that they have retrofitted at least some Capella-era ships with pulse weaponry (to be noted that retrofitting Capella-era tev ships with pulse weaponry is also undergoing). Or will they use the same meson-based blue beams as the terrans, or a custom version based on a similar tech, for use only on their new-gen designs ?

Well, technically speaking, SVas and VSlash are still significantly superior to the SBlue and TerSlashBlue in terms of DPS, though they have a more limited range. On the other hand, canonically, the SVas was  used only on the Hattie, and the VSlash on the Sobek, while the terrans happily use slash beams on their destroyers.

Maybe next-gen vasudan warship won't feature new beams, but old beams on a wider number of ships?

Also, if they have their own customed non-blue new beams, what color should they be ? :D (Blue beams on vasudan deigns must look weird; gotta try that when I get home)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on May 23, 2011, 10:52:32 am
New beam weapon: Slash Beam Nuke. Everytime it hits a ship, it detonates an apocalypse in its hull, making a row of nukes hitting a ship.

Man, that would be so great (and crappy at the same time lol)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 11:04:16 am
Wow in that case, Fleet TacNet is misleading. Helios torps must've eaten real deep into the stations, past the radiation shields (unless they were on the outside...). Kinda lucky there weren't any Helios-armed bombers around Rheza as far as I remember, but Steele himself is scarier than a wing of Helios-armed bombers.

What/Where was the Solaris engaging/engaged around Earth? There didn't seem to be any mentions of it.


On the topic of Vasudan beams, I believe Vasudan designs are efficient and powerful enough not to require developing new beams, other than long range variants of their current beams. Although, the Vasudans seem to also be utilizing fusion reactors as of the UEF-GTVA war. Interesting to see what the Vasudans will come up with when they use meson reactors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 23, 2011, 11:06:16 am
Wow in that case, Fleet TacNet is misleading. Helios torps must've eaten real deep into the stations, past the radiation shields (unless they were on the outside...). Kinda lucky there weren't any Helios-armed bombers around Rheza as far as I remember, but Steele himself is scarier than a wing of Helios-armed bombers.

You don't even know where the transmission was coming from.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on May 23, 2011, 12:07:31 pm
Wow in that case, Fleet TacNet is misleading. Helios torps must've eaten real deep into the stations, past the radiation shields (unless they were on the outside...). Kinda lucky there weren't any Helios-armed bombers around Rheza as far as I remember, but Steele himself is scarier than a wing of Helios-armed bombers.

That transmission was random chatter from some unknown point in a huge battle, Destiny, and IIRC had no given source.  It could have signified any number of circumstances that could have resulted in a bunch of crewman getting fatal Rad Doses. Say, for instance, those men were in a station Escape pod that exited right next to an impacting Helios, or maybe they were pilots that had ejected and gotten dosed by random detonations, then picked up afterwards. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 23, 2011, 12:26:15 pm
That's why I used 'must've' alone and didn't add 'definitely' in front. Speculation. If the...uhh...'vampires' that were hitting Hydura were partially intercepted and didn't blow up the station, that's another circumstance for rad dosed people. 500 casualties coming in at once for the receiving station or medical ship would be pretty hard on them.





(Wouldn't exiting next to a Helios impacting would destroy the pod entirely...?)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 23, 2011, 12:50:23 pm
That depends on how close "next to it" is. The bomb shockwaves in BP aren't as powerfull as they used to be in the first release of AoA (i.e.: I'm going to blow up this shivan bomb 50 meters in front of me.... *bang* Wtf? why am I dead? Ah, the memories  :lol: ).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on May 23, 2011, 12:50:51 pm
That depends on how close "next to it" is. The bomb shockwaves in BP aren't as powerfull as they used to be in the first release of AoA (i.e.: I'm going to blow up this shivan bomb 50 meters in front of me.... *bang* Wtf? why am I dead? Ah, the memories  :lol: ).
Gah Universal Truth :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on May 23, 2011, 11:54:04 pm
That depends on how close "next to it" is. The bomb shockwaves in BP aren't as powerfull as they used to be in the first release of AoA (i.e.: I'm going to blow up this shivan bomb 50 meters in front of me.... *bang* Wtf? why am I dead? Ah, the memories  :lol: ).


From what I remember the FS1 Shivan Megabomb shockwaves were extremely dangerous.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on May 24, 2011, 03:49:48 am
New Vasudan beams would be orange, white, or purple I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 24, 2011, 04:10:52 am
From what I remember the FS1 Shivan Megabomb shockwaves were extremely dangerous.
Were the insta-death to a full hull, full shield fighter 50 meters away from the exploding bomb? I don't remember ever dying to a bomb shockwave in FS1 or FS Port, except one time in the final mission, when I was very low on health while getting too close to a reactor.
But in original AoA I died .... often to bombs, even from full health.

It made forced entry all the more frustrating. You manage a perfect playthrough, including taking out all the Ravanas beams and on the way back to your own ships, one of the Temeraires torpedoes is shoot down by the Ravana right next to your fighter and you die :banghead:.
While it was annoying as hell in the beginning, once I got used to it, it was fun. I was a little disappointed whenthe directors cut turned bombs completely harmless against shields.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 24, 2011, 04:25:26 am
The Supernovae of the Temeraire are still as one-shotting, believe me ;p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 24, 2011, 05:51:25 am
Eos are nasty enough as well. I got hit by a TAG-C once, didn't try to evade; "meh, shield is fully charged what can a bomb possibly do to m*dead*"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 24, 2011, 06:39:55 am
From what I remember the FS1 Shivan Megabomb shockwaves were extremely dangerous.
Were the insta-death to a full hull, full shield fighter 50 meters away from the exploding bomb? I don't remember ever dying to a bomb shockwave in FS1 or FS Port, except one time in the final mission, when I was very low on health while getting too close to a reactor.
But in original AoA I died .... often to bombs, even from full health.

It made forced entry all the more frustrating. You manage a perfect playthrough, including taking out all the Ravanas beams and on the way back to your own ships, one of the Temeraires torpedoes is shoot down by the Ravana right next to your fighter and you die :banghead:.
While it was annoying as hell in the beginning, once I got used to it, it was fun. I was a little disappointed whenthe directors cut turned bombs completely harmless against shields.
I actually got killed by the Ravana splitting in half, when it forced the game into a cutscene. Had to do it all over again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 24, 2011, 06:48:05 am
I get killed so often, when a ship explodes and some debris hit me...realy funny^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on May 24, 2011, 09:36:57 am
From what I remember the FS1 Shivan Megabomb shockwaves were extremely dangerous.
Were the insta-death to a full hull, full shield fighter 50 meters away from the exploding bomb? I don't remember ever dying to a bomb shockwave in FS1 or FS Port, except one time in the final mission, when I was very low on health while getting too close to a reactor.
But in original AoA I died .... often to bombs, even from full health.

It made forced entry all the more frustrating. You manage a perfect playthrough, including taking out all the Ravanas beams and on the way back to your own ships, one of the Temeraires torpedoes is shoot down by the Ravana right next to your fighter and you die :banghead:.
While it was annoying as hell in the beginning, once I got used to it, it was fun. I was a little disappointed whenthe directors cut turned bombs completely harmless against shields.
I actually got killed by the Ravana splitting in half, when it forced the game into a cutscene. Had to do it all over again.

Temporary godmoding could prevent that when FREDded
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on May 24, 2011, 09:37:53 am
That was probably fixed in the Director's Cut.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 24, 2011, 12:42:06 pm
What was the fighting in the caargo bay a metaphor........for?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on May 24, 2011, 11:26:10 pm
I get killed so often, when a ship explodes and some debris hit me...realy funny^^
Debris is the most overpowered weapon in FreeSpace ever. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on May 24, 2011, 11:38:07 pm
Enif station's worst enemy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 24, 2011, 11:38:33 pm
We can actually give debris a damage type now and armor against it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 25, 2011, 03:50:07 am
Would it be possible to have point defense weapons shoot down incoming debris, like they already shoot down asteroids on collision course?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 25, 2011, 03:56:06 am
Debris are much, much stronger than asteroids (they might actually be invulnerable until they self-destruct), so it'll be only a waste of firepower.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 25, 2011, 03:57:47 am
Since they explode on impact instead of bouncing off, they can't be invulnerable. And if the damage type they do can be changes I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to reduce their hitpoints.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 25, 2011, 05:23:51 am
Since I like freding ridiculous missions, involving ships blowing up several shivans, including a Sathanas...
If the Sath explodes, sometimes, the debris can be seen floating around quite some time, or, if my little ships keep firing their beams, no debris at all appear...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on May 25, 2011, 05:43:00 am
Debris can be destroyed by weapons fire, weapons just won't target them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on May 25, 2011, 06:00:41 am
Good mission design will ensure that debris is no immediate threat to friendly ships. I remember some other mods where the mission designers did not take into account the possible directions debris can spin off to along with it's speed and how quickly it can reach a friendly larger ship, resulting into friendly victorious vessels being sadly destroyed by debris from an enemy cap-ship, thus failing the mission. :P So far this didn't happen to me yet in BP as far as I can remember, so I assume debris has been a factor the mission designers have taken into account.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 25, 2011, 06:11:55 am
Once, during a run of High Noon, the Colossus was hit by stray Sathanas debris and lost 20% hull because of it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 25, 2011, 06:30:30 am
Good mission design will ensure that debris is no immediate threat to friendly ships. I remember some other mods where the mission designers did not take into account the possible directions debris can spin off to along with it's speed and how quickly it can reach a friendly larger ship, resulting into friendly victorious vessels being sadly destroyed by debris from an enemy cap-ship, thus failing the mission. :P So far this didn't happen to me yet in BP as far as I can remember, so I assume debris has been a factor the mission designers have taken into account.

Except you really can't make assumptions about debris, given the many, many factors involved in its creation. The only way we've found to make sure that mission outcome isn't ruined by debris is liberal use of ship-protect whenever something blows up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on May 25, 2011, 07:23:14 am
ship-protect won't actually work there though. Have to use ship-guardian in that case.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 25, 2011, 07:26:12 am
Ship-disco-boogie.



Feature request? :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on May 25, 2011, 07:41:53 am
Once, during a run of High Noon, the Colossus was hit by stray Sathanas debris and lost 20% hull because of it.
So that's how the Sathanas "inflicted moderate damage to the Colossus" despite having no beams... :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on May 25, 2011, 09:45:01 am
Actually, in the last mission of age in aquarius, the orestes has a high possibility of going down to 60 percent integrity due to the reijian's debris...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 25, 2011, 10:12:30 am
So that's how the Sathanas "inflicted moderate damage to the Colossus" despite having no beams... :p

Yes, via flaming wreckage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on May 25, 2011, 10:18:37 am
Hmm..I survived the joust this time, but I realized that I couldn't bear to fire a single shot in My Brother, My Enemy. I just...C-3-5'd, and the two Uhlans blew up all the fighters, until Chavel or something came and blew up Alpha 2 and 3. Just for some unfathomable reason, I couldn't fire. When I clicked on my stats in the debriefing, everything was 0.


I don't know what magic spell the BP team casted, but...well-done in actually affecting the psychology of a player. Very, very well done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on May 25, 2011, 12:04:14 pm
Good mission design will ensure that debris is no immediate threat to friendly ships. I remember some other mods where the mission designers did not take into account the possible directions debris can spin off to along with it's speed and how quickly it can reach a friendly larger ship, resulting into friendly victorious vessels being sadly destroyed by debris from an enemy cap-ship, thus failing the mission. :P So far this didn't happen to me yet in BP as far as I can remember, so I assume debris has been a factor the mission designers have taken into account.

Except you really can't make assumptions about debris, given the many, many factors involved in its creation. The only way we've found to make sure that mission outcome isn't ruined by debris is liberal use of ship-protect whenever something blows up.

I meant more in the direction of not letting ships which are battling a Sath fly circles around it within 1500 metres of range, or 5 minute long conversations happening while a friendly ship is relatively close to the hostile Sath.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on June 06, 2011, 10:29:58 am
Hmm..I survived the joust this time, but I realized that I couldn't bear to fire a single shot in My Brother, My Enemy. I just...C-3-5'd, and the two Uhlans blew up all the fighters, until Chavel or something came and blew up Alpha 2 and 3. Just for some unfathomable reason, I couldn't fire. When I clicked on my stats in the debriefing, everything was 0.
...

That sounds strange. Are you also unable to control your ship movements as well? I had an issue with the player being under AI control after the Kai Chavel cutscene, but the AI immediately warped out and ended the mission for me. If that's not the case, perhaps there is some oddity where your primaries remain locked after the cutscene due to some loophole in the mission. I don't know about the stats being reset to 0 (primary shots fired and everything?), I can't say what would cause that unless you actually didn't fire a shot.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on June 06, 2011, 11:11:50 am
I think he meant the ship controlls were fine, but his emotions played havoc and prevented him from firing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 06, 2011, 11:12:34 am
I think he meant the ship controlls were fine, but his emotions played havoc and prevented him from firing.
Xinny and Zero prevented him from firing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on June 12, 2011, 03:14:22 pm
[/lurk]

Oh hm... just thought of something. How is it that the UEF's name for "Nagari" is the same as the GTVA's?

[lurk]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on June 12, 2011, 03:27:47 pm
Because the name was coined by the GTI, prior to the Sol isolation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 12, 2011, 04:12:23 pm
Yep, research on it predated the Isolation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on June 12, 2011, 11:01:05 pm
I'm about 95% sure you're already doing this... but you know how the gatling cannons have a sort of motorised spin up sound before it starts spewing lead? You know how the gattler does not make that sound(I thought it was broken when I first used it)?

Well now it can! Check out one of the newer editions to the weapons.tbl wiki... http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapons.tbl#.24PreLaunchSnd:

With this .tbl feature the gattler can play the spinup sound before firing. Isn't that cool?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on June 12, 2011, 11:21:29 pm
I'm about 95% sure you're already doing this... but you know how the gatling cannons have a sort of motorised spin up sound before it starts spewing lead? You know how the gattler does not make that sound(I thought it was broken when I first used it)?

Well now it can! Check out one of the newer editions to the weapons.tbl wiki... http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Weapons.tbl#.24PreLaunchSnd:

With this .tbl feature the gattler can play the spinup sound before firing. Isn't that cool?
That's pretty awesome.



Now for people on the receiving end to hear a brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrruuuuupppppp. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhKp6B7Ktpw&feature=related)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on June 17, 2011, 12:45:30 am
[/lurk]

Ooo, just remembered another thing that had been bugging me...

Did the UEF ever bother to finish those two warships in "Pawns", or did they just leave them? If the player doesn't destroy them, I mean...

[lurk]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 17, 2011, 02:05:40 am
[/lurk]

Ooo, just remembered another thing that had been bugging me...

Did the UEF ever bother to finish those two warships in "Pawns", or did they just leave them? If the player doesn't destroy them, I mean...

[lurk]
I think they simply captured/boarded them. Maybe, the ships were sent to the 1. Fleet or even to the FSI.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 18, 2011, 05:35:06 pm
I hope the Nelson survived......Just because of the name.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Arthur_the_great on June 18, 2011, 06:08:50 pm
Anyone know what the status of this Campaign is??

Oh. Yeah Hi everyone
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 18, 2011, 06:21:46 pm
Anyone know what the status of this Campaign is??

Oh. Yeah Hi everyone

FIRING BLUE!!!
:welcomeblue:


It's been finished since late last year...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on June 18, 2011, 07:39:45 pm
Anyone know what the status of this Campaign is??
It's been finished since late last year...
At least the first half has been (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70745.0).  The second half is still in development.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 18, 2011, 11:19:06 pm
Anyone know what the status of this Campaign is??

Oh. Yeah Hi everyone

First half released since last year.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on June 24, 2011, 02:01:29 am
Not to pressure (since from my own rl creative projects I know annoying THAT is), but as a longtime Blue Planet fan I thought I'd inquire as to how WiH2 is coming along as we near the 1 year anniversary of the first half's release? Or are you guys mostly focusing on finishing the voice acting for part 1? Not that that would bother me, I've thought of auditioning myself now that I have a decent mic for work purposes.

I actually just reinstalled FS2 and started my first replay of WiH tonight. I WAS going to wait for the special edition but... well what can I say? BP is one of my favorite stories and I wanted to experience it again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on June 24, 2011, 03:12:29 am
Not to pressure (since from my own rl creative projects I know annoying THAT is), but as a longtime Blue Planet fan I thought I'd inquire as to how WiH2 is coming along as we near the 1 year anniversary of the first half's release? Or are you guys mostly focusing on finishing the voice acting for part 1? Not that that would bother me, I've thought of auditioning myself now that I have a decent mic for work purposes.

I actually just reinstalled FS2 and started my first replay of WiH tonight. I WAS going to wait for the special edition but... well what can I say? BP is one of my favorite stories and I wanted to experience it again.

Hopefully this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=76041.0) answers your question a bit! :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on June 24, 2011, 03:24:04 am
Voice acting WiH1 is not slowing the progress of WiH2 down, because it's not done by the actual BP team for the most part. General Battuta seems to have a hand in the VA effort, but the actual VA director (I think that's a good word) Iss Meunr, who does most of the work on the VAing as far as I'm aware, isn't part of the actual BP team.
Just like AoAs voice acting, which was done by Rian and General Battuta (back then "just" a fan and not a member of the BP team).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 24, 2011, 08:35:44 am
Not to pressure (since from my own rl creative projects I know annoying THAT is), but as a longtime Blue Planet fan I thought I'd inquire as to how WiH2 is coming along as we near the 1 year anniversary of the first half's release? Or are you guys mostly focusing on finishing the voice acting for part 1? Not that that would bother me, I've thought of auditioning myself now that I have a decent mic for work purposes.

I actually just reinstalled FS2 and started my first replay of WiH tonight. I WAS going to wait for the special edition but... well what can I say? BP is one of my favorite stories and I wanted to experience it again.

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=76041.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on June 24, 2011, 12:10:30 pm
Oh nice, that"s exactly the kind of thing I was hoping to see!

As far as Wings of Dawn, funny you should mention that since I just downloaded it overnight about two days ago and am just waiting for the weekend to start it up
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 24, 2011, 12:17:01 pm

As far as Wings of Dawn, funny you should mention that since I just downloaded it overnight about two days ago and am just waiting for the weekend to start it up
It's worth the wait, trust me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on June 25, 2011, 01:14:09 pm
Quick question while we're all here, will the next release be the end of the Blue Planet storyline?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on June 25, 2011, 01:16:08 pm
No. We have plans for a Blue Planet 3 (after War In Heaven) that will wrap up the BP storyline as much as a storyline like that can be wrapped up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on June 25, 2011, 01:23:44 pm
No. We have plans for a Blue Planet 3 (after War In Heaven) that will wrap up the BP storyline as much as a storyline like that can be wrapped up.

I know it's been said before but I can't find the post where it's at: what are the names for the WiH R2 acts?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on June 25, 2011, 01:41:58 pm
They're called Tenebra, War in Heaven, and Revenant.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on June 25, 2011, 04:59:08 pm
Quick question: How is the checkpoint system designed to work? I know it does some magic with ship teleportation and remembering damage, but there seems to be a bug with it in my current playthrough.

When loading a checkpoint in
Spoiler:
that mission where you run the blockade
, my ship Hull gets saved, but my secondaries do not. Loading a checkpoint always gives me full missiles. Also, disabled ships seem to get un-disabled once you load a checkpoint.

There is also this weird thing with AI shield management. I'm not sure why, but certain friendly fighters like to sit around with 0 shields, but have probably diverted energy away in the ETS so that they don't recharge. They can sit around for up to a minute sometimes without any observable shield charge. This is on insane difficulty. (Usually these are the guardian'd AI as well, if not exclusively, since most things die pretty quick if they don't care about keeping shields up)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 25, 2011, 05:16:59 pm
Quick question: How is the checkpoint system designed to work? I know it does some magic with ship teleportation and remembering damage, but there seems to be a bug with it in my current playthrough.

When loading a checkpoint in
Spoiler:
that mission where you run the blockade
, my ship Hull gets saved, but my secondaries do not. Loading a checkpoint always gives me full missiles. Also, disabled ships seem to get un-disabled once you load a checkpoint.
The checkpoint system uses campaign-persistent variables. Because of engine limitations, there is only a limited number of those. Which means that the BP team had to choose what they really wanted to save and what not. It seems that in this case, secondary ammo wasn't considered a priority.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 26, 2011, 12:20:32 am
Yep, what Matth said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on June 26, 2011, 11:02:15 am
Understood. I just never noticed it first run through because I didn't use checkpoints much, so I thought it might have been a bug that cropped up in the newer nightlies or something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on June 26, 2011, 07:32:08 pm
Spoiler:
So did SOC compromise the source that fed the UEF the information on the Agincourt and Carthage sometime between Aristeia and Delenda Est? Probably because they were well aware there must have been a leak somewhere for the UEF to be able to trap the Agincourt in the first place? And then Steele allowed the Carthage attack to go through with the intention of eliminating the War Gods?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 26, 2011, 08:01:18 pm
Spoiler:
So did SOC compromise the source that fed the UEF the information on the Agincourt and Carthage sometime between Aristeia and Delenda Est? Probably because they were well aware there must have been a leak somewhere for the UEF to be able to trap the Agincourt in the first place? And then Steele allowed the Carthage attack to go through with the intention of eliminating the War Gods?

It does seem so. (You can find out the identity of the leak if you read 'Conversations from War in Heaven', too. And I don't think anybody has yet figured out how the leak got the information she did.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 26, 2011, 08:52:28 pm
vishnans did it
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on June 26, 2011, 08:57:16 pm
Wait, could we have figured out how she got the information?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 26, 2011, 09:38:51 pm
Well, let's try. Here's the relevant conversion, from the original thread.

Quote
Bergher-Tanikawa Suites, Duchenne, New Berge, Hulldown Continent, Beta Aquilae

"Tell me why you did it."

"I don't owe you anything."

"You earned our trust, Thea. You were extraordinarily, painstakingly convincing. I would have sworn before a tribunal that you were as loyal as the day you left."

"Apparently you should find a new line of work, then."

"Is that a confession, Thea?"

"That's Rear Admiral to you, Captain."

"You were stripped of your rank and citizenship in the GTVA six hours ago. I could execute you summarily and you wouldn't even get a goddamn epitaph. So answer my question."

"I don't know what you're talking about. I will protest this injustice to the limit of my ability. Get your spooks out of my home."

"Don't play games with me. I'm here to offer you a chance at absolution."

"I wasn't aware that the Alliance had any morality left in its table of assets. Absolution seems like a stretch."

"My God. I don't know what those monsters did to you over there, but it really is as terrifying as they say, isn't it? You were the best, Thea. You knew who you were."

"Enlighten me."

"You were a patriot. You were...an honest-to-God champion of humanity."

"I wasn't aware I'd abrogated that responsibility."

"Abrogated? 'Abrogated'? You gave them the ****ing jump schedules, you traitorous piece of ****. There were ten thousand people in that - "

"Keep your voice down."

"Tell me why you did it."

"If I did something, I did it because I took an oath to secure the future of humanity."

"You are as irredeemably, unutterably lost as your commander was, aren't you?"

"I - "

"Shut up. Sergeant, secure Thea Carey and move her to the Blackbird Village site. She can still make up for the damage she's done...one way or another."

For those of you who don't remember (blasphemy! :p), Rear Admiral Thea Carey was the CO of GTD Temeraire in Age of Aquarius. She presided over most of the exploration of the alternate universe while Orestes was holding position in Delta Serpentis, and was the first flag officer to make contact with Sanctuary and see the Vishnans up close. Nonetheless, she was not among those who defected to the UEF in "Journey's End". Samuel Bei had a lot of respect for her as an officer and perceived her as quite professional and unlikely to entertain plans that involved him fulfilling his destiny and turning into a ship, which is why he stole a shuttle instead of asking nicely.

And with the summary out of the way, on to the conversation. Aside from telling us that Carey was the informant, it seems to imply that she spent some time in one of the UEF's infamous reeducation camps. Rather perplexing, as Temeraire and the rest of the 14th were stationed as far as possible from the Sol theatre to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening.

Hmm. It just occurred to be that Al'Faddil was captured by the UEF, too. So either the UEF was operating outside of Sol (unlikely in the extreme), or at least two 14th officers were allowed back in. In the latter case, the GTVA must have had very specific reasons.

My best guess is that Carey was selected by GTVI to stage her defection, got found out, and subsequently decided to defect for real. This still doesn't explain why she would have needed to know Agincourt's jump schedule, though.

The hell with it. Vishnans.  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 26, 2011, 10:02:40 pm
it seems to imply that she spent some time in one of the UEF's infamous reeducation camps. Rather perplexing, as Temeraire and the rest of the 14th were stationed as far as possible from the Sol theatre to prevent exactly this sort of thing from happening.
I don't think so. My hypotheses are :
1) either the arrester knew what happened to the 14th battlegroup and when he said "I don't know what those monsters did to you over there, but it really is as terrifying as they say, isn't it?", he was referring to Vishnans brain-washing em, or just the horror of facing Shivans again.
2) or, most likely, he doesn't know about that (I'd expect that to be classified to the highest level, and we don't know who this arrester is, but Captain seems a little low to have access to that info), and whatever the GTVA concocted to explain the 14th battlegroup disappearing for 2 months (or was it weeks ?) and return heavily battle-damaged involved the UEF being very terrifying or something, and that's what he refers to.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on June 26, 2011, 10:28:56 pm
He may be a Captain but he's interrogating her and is probably GTVI or affiliated with it. Not a stretch to assume he knows what happened to the 14th, the remaining crew were all extensively debriefed. I think it's clear he's referring to the Vishnans/Shivans.

What was he referring to when he says "there were ten thousand people in that..." though? He makes it sound like 10,000 people died but the Agincourt was taken intact?



p.s. The revelation that it was Carey blew my mind wide open. I'm not surprised they allowed her, al-Faddil and probably others to serve again, it has been 18 months and they've proven themselves extremely competent officers. I really would think it'd be interesting to learn in the future how they feel about serving with the GTVA after that fiasco... though I guess that question is certainly answered already in Carey's case.

p.p.s. When I first booted up War in Heaven I wondered what in the world a story about the Sol-GTVA war fit in with Age of Aquarius. Now though I'm realizing what an absolutely brilliant prologue that was. Kinda want to go play it all over again to start connecting more dots...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 26, 2011, 10:57:47 pm
Hmm, it's possible he's talking about Shivans. I'm still leaning toward her having been one of the UEF's reeducation camp guests, though.

"My God. I don't know what those monsters did to you over there, but it really is as terrifying as they say, isn't it? You were the best, Thea. You knew who you were."

Emphasis mine. The 14th's adventure was a year and a half ago, and the reeducation camps are ongoing. The former would be referred to in the past tense, the latter would be referred to in the present tense, as it is here.

Or I might be giving way too much weight to the conjugation of one verb. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on June 26, 2011, 11:21:24 pm
Or it could just be the concept of fighting such a monolithic entity as the Shivans, who feel no remorse, give no quarter, and do not retreat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on June 26, 2011, 11:28:17 pm
When would she have gone to one of the camps though? She didn't defect at the end of AoA.

Also this is the first I've heard of reeducation camps. Sounds like GTVA propaganda! Where else are they mentioned?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on June 27, 2011, 01:36:50 am
Probably she was not in the Temeraire when they defected, most likely in the Solace, or the Sanctuary.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on June 27, 2011, 02:15:57 am
What was he referring to when he says "there were ten thousand people in that..." though? He makes it sound like 10,000 people died but the Agincourt was taken intact?
They don't know what happened to those 10000 people. They could be dead or prisoners. Or they could even have willingly joined the UEF (well... a part of them anyway). Since those people were specialists their loss (as in them being unavailable, not necessarily dead) hurts the GTVA and might help the UEF a great deal in researching GTVA technology faster.

We also don't know if the escape pods Laporte shot down were occupied and if they were, how many people were in them. The GTVA might have found the debris and maybe even a blackbox with a recording of the battle after the Agincourt was noticed as missing, so they might know about the destroyed pods.


As for how she got the information in the first place. Do you think she might have been cooperating with the Vasudans that sent Laporte that secret data?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on June 27, 2011, 03:41:57 am
just a passing question, what happens to the sanctuary in wih? is it dismantled?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on June 27, 2011, 05:42:04 am
Guys...she was taken captive on Beta-Aquilae...not anywhere in Sol.
She fed the UEF the jump schedules of the Agincourt, then she was captured and Steele used her most likely to lure the Wargods in the trap at Saturn...
And nothing is known about the Sanctuary...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 27, 2011, 08:44:14 am
Or it could just be the concept of fighting such a monolithic entity as the Shivans, who feel no remorse, give no quarter, and do not retreat.

Maybe, but I'm not entirely convinced. We don't see people who fought in the SSI defecting to the UEF left and right, so if he's saying that her reasons for aiding the enemy had something to do with experiences fighting the Shivans, he's talking about something specific to what the 14th went through. Also, this guy's a Captain. He's been in the service a long time, most likely long enough that he wouldn't need to rely on hearsay to know what fighting Shivans is like.

When would she have gone to one of the camps though? She didn't defect at the end of AoA.

Also this is the first I've heard of reeducation camps. Sounds like GTVA propaganda! Where else are they mentioned?

"My Brother, My Enemy". The debrief postulates that the GTVA views what happens to prisoners of war as a fate worse than death.

Carey almost had to have been in Sol at some point. There's no reason that someone not involved in Sol operations would have had access to the jump schedules.

As for how she got the information in the first place. Do you think she might have been cooperating with the Vasudans that sent Laporte that secret data?

I don't think so. Steele didn't bring in Vasudan logistic support until after the Agincourt was captured, so there's no reason the Vasudans would have known.

Guys...she was taken captive on Beta-Aquilae...not anywhere in Sol.

She was taken captive by the GTVA in Beta Aquilae a year and a half after the war started. We don't know what she was doing, or what happened to her, during the intervening time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on June 27, 2011, 09:00:32 am
Quote
Carey almost had to have been in Sol at some point. There's no reason that someone not involved in Sol operations would have had access to the jump schedules.

That might not be entirely true.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 27, 2011, 09:08:33 am
Or it could just be the concept of fighting such a monolithic entity as the Shivans, who feel no remorse, give no quarter, and do not retreat.

The Shivans are not something you chip your morality on. Your will to live, perhaps, but not your morality. They're uncomplicated. The UEF doesn't offer anything better than the GTVA on that subject.

Carey almost had to have been in Sol at some point. There's no reason that someone not involved in Sol operations would have had access to the jump schedules.

First and second sentences show no relation. Plenty of people can be involved with Sol operations without being in Sol.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on June 27, 2011, 09:14:55 am
Carey almost had to have been in Sol at some point. There's no reason that someone not involved in Sol operations would have had access to the jump schedules.

Completely agree on this. I don't suppose it's too far of a stretch to assume that Carey may have been involved in or even in command of the GTD Requiem, but then again that was many months before the start of WiH, I doubt the jump schedule would've remained the same. There's always the possiblity that she was captured or defected, but if that was true it would surely have made the headlines, 'Requiem CO captured!'

Hell come to think of it we don't even know who the Hood or Imperiuse's CO was, may even have been Carey at some point, as far-fetched as that is.

Ninja'ed:
Quote
Plenty of people can be involved with Sol operations without being in Sol

Sure, but only a select few would be able to access the kind of info Carey did and she would have had to have been in Delta Serpentis at the very least to pass on that information to the UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 27, 2011, 09:54:28 am
First and second sentences show no relation. Plenty of people can be involved with Sol operations without being in Sol.

But involved in such a way that they would need to know jump schedules? The only people who need to know those are the people piloting the logistics ship and the people who need to rendezvous with the logistics ship. Considering that Anemois are practically defenseless high-value targets that spend a lot of their time with next to no escort, that's the sort of information that the minimum possible number of people would be informed of.

Hell come to think of it we don't even know who the Hood or Imperiuse's CO was, may even have been Carey at some point, as far-fetched as that is.

I was thinking along those lines, too. That the GTVA trusted Carey doesn't mean they trusted the rest of Temeraire's crew, so they would have given her a new command if they sent her back to Sol. It's possible that she was Imperieuse's CO and that passing on the order to nuke Luna was the last straw for her.

Of course, that's even more baseless than most of this speculation. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 27, 2011, 10:40:10 am
But involved in such a way that they would need to know jump schedules? The only people who need to know those are the people piloting the logistics ship and the people who need to rendezvous with the logistics ship.

There are other people who will need to know. Those flying escort, for example. The people who gave the orders for the resupply schedule. The people who need to know when the ships involved will be available, not available, and in need of restocking, which means whatever command the logistics ships are attached to and the commands that command is subordinate to. The mere existence of a schedule invalidates your supposition of who needs to know.

Logistics is not a simple subject, and there could be entire armies of people who don't need to know, but will certainly do their jobs better with the knowledge and so might be informed. The GTVA has the only means of communication bottlenecked, so there's not a great deal of obvious danger in telling people with no reason to traverse the Sol node or send messages that way. Then there are the armies of people who could simply make highly educated guesses based on travel distances and times of tasks involved given a hard fact or two, like seeing the resupply ship leave its home area.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 27, 2011, 10:41:51 am
Quote
Then there are the armies of people who could simply make highly educated guesses based on travel distances and times of tasks involved given a hard fact or two, like seeing the resupply ship leave its home area.

On the right track! The answer involves the GTL Fortune.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 27, 2011, 11:17:11 am
Plot.



Thickening. :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on June 27, 2011, 12:09:36 pm
On the right track! The answer involves the GTL Fortune.
The Solace defected, I don't remember anything about the Fortune.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 27, 2011, 12:19:21 pm
wat

Aren't intrasystem jumps either instantaneous or very nearly so? Meaning that mission length timetables give no hint whatsoever as to how far the logistics ship is going, and that there's furthermore no need to position a logistics ship anywhere near the ships it's to resupply?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on June 27, 2011, 12:19:32 pm
On the right track! The answer involves the GTL Fortune.
The Solace defected, I don't remember anything about the Fortune.
I thought they both defected.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on June 27, 2011, 12:20:29 pm
On the right track! The answer involves the GTL Fortune.
The Solace defected, I don't remember anything about the Fortune.
I thought they both defected.
Only one of them did (which one it was slips my mind)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on June 27, 2011, 12:28:54 pm
Look here then, I suppose? (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=72393.msg1461375#msg1461375)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on June 27, 2011, 12:45:04 pm
or
Quote
Some of the 14th's ships were no longer available for analysis - the GTC Duke, GTCv Labouchere, and GTL Solace had defected wholesale to the UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 27, 2011, 01:06:01 pm
wat

Aren't intrasystem jumps either instantaneous or very nearly so? Meaning that mission length timetables give no hint whatsoever as to how far the logistics ship is going, and that there's furthermore no need to position a logistics ship anywhere near the ships it's to resupply?

The information Carey leaked involved the timing and coordinates of the Agincourt's jumps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 27, 2011, 01:14:22 pm
wat

Aren't intrasystem jumps either instantaneous or very nearly so? Meaning that mission length timetables give no hint whatsoever as to how far the logistics ship is going, and that there's furthermore no need to position a logistics ship anywhere near the ships it's to resupply?

The information Carey leaked involved the timing and coordinates of the Agincourt's jumps.

I know that. I meant that to leak the coordinates, she would have had to know them exactly. She couldn't have deduced them from knowledge of which ships Agincourt was to resupply or how long she was to be gone, as NGTM-1R seemed to be saying with:

Quote
Then there are the armies of people who could simply make highly educated guesses based on travel distances and times of tasks involved given a hard fact or two, like seeing the resupply ship leave its home area.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on June 27, 2011, 01:50:37 pm
Even if it was true that only someone in Sol could know the schedules (which isn't the case) who's to say that Carey was the one who obtained the schedules in the first place. She could have just passed them along, acting as middle(wo)man between a person who dug up the plans and another person who made the call to the UEF. There could even be a whole chain of people involved, though the higher the number, the more unlikely the scenario gets. The fewer people who know about a conspiracy, the easier it is to conceal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on June 27, 2011, 02:09:11 pm
Maybe she had some contacts in the military office and asked 'yo, what's the Agincourt's jump schedule?' :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 27, 2011, 02:14:39 pm
Maybe she had some contacts in the military office and asked 'yo, what's the Agincourt's jump schedule?' :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_%28information_security%29
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 27, 2011, 02:31:25 pm
Well maybe she said please. :p

More seriously, there's no reason for more than two people at maximum to be involved in this: one to obtain  the information, and one to get it into Sol (if the first was elsewhere and did not have means of doing so). Any additions to the chain between those two just adds needless risk.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 27, 2011, 02:40:09 pm
I know that. I meant that to leak the coordinates, she would have had to know them exactly. She couldn't have deduced them from knowledge of which ships Agincourt was to resupply or how long she was to be gone, as NGTM-1R seemed to be saying with:

It's not like a jump node moves much. You only have to put a tail on the ship as it enters Sol, so you only need to know about when it enters the Sol node in Delta Serp really. Alternately, you only have to be able to compromise one part of a rendezvous to put all parties to it in danger. The Agincourt itself did not have to be the ship whose movements were known if one of the ships she was to resupply was.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 27, 2011, 02:55:06 pm
Okay, that makes a lot more sense than what I thought you said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on June 27, 2011, 03:01:56 pm
Maybe she had some contacts in the military office and asked 'yo, what's the Agincourt's jump schedule?' :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compartmentalization_%28information_security%29
If you haven't realized I'm just dumbing the process down.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on June 27, 2011, 03:12:26 pm
I think it's interesting the GTVA even let people from the 14th serve in the fleet again, knowing what they know about what they encountered.

Spoiler:
I'm assuming the Morpheus Contingency has to do with the Vishnans or Shivans or both with their big MASSIVE warships entering our realm and attacking Terran space? Steele is head of the fleet, it makes sense he'd be privy to that information and knows exactly what went down with the 14th. Actually makes his commitment to ending the war quickly and with limited attrition make even more sense.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on June 30, 2011, 10:06:47 am
A random idea, but very different angle on the identity of Brahmas came to me today.

Perhaps the Brahmas were never an actual species, instead being the conglomerated product of the two entirely different Shivan and Vishnan species. The Shivans know only to destroy, the Vishnans know only to preserve. These two properties together however allow for creation which in itself is the act of scrapping concepts deemed not useful (destruction) and keeping concepts which deserve merit and further consideration (preservation). To explain why both the Vishnans and Shivans believe the Brahmas to have been a seperate species, one must look at the nature of these two ancient and surviving species. To the Vishnans the act of exacting destruction, and to the Shivans the thought of maintaining preservation are SO alien, that neither can comprehend nor grasp the concept of creation which requires an understanding of both destruction AND preservation. Thus so the act of creation was never understood by the Shivans and Vishnans, it was merely the product of a successful collaboration between the Shivans and Vishnans and for them it was convenient: life kept developing and both could keep fulfilling their respective purposes. Somewhere in the course of time things went wrong and their alliance faltered. The truth behind the true face of creation became corrupted and misinterpreted and the workings of their alliance ceased to be. The alliance was now a mere officiality: both the Vishnans and Shivans knew the alliance was apparently important but neither knew why. Ironically having a narrow and biased perspective is the one and only thing the two share in common and so they both agreed there must have been a third species which was capable of creation: a concept they never have or will understand. Because these mythical 'creators' are nowhere to be seen, they are assumed to have disappeared a long time ago and are considered to have perhaps perished. There never was a Triumvirate of Shivans, Vishnans and Brahmas. It was a Duumvirate, an alliance between two species, two species which despite being eachothers nemesis formed a mutualistic bond through which all in excistence could prosper in the long term. Two species which forgot they are two sides of an automaton which must not deviate from their purpose. Humankind or Vasudankind aren't the Brahmas, nor will they be. If they prove themselves worthy, they are tolerated for the time being until becoming malevolent to the universe. But MAYBE if the Terrans and Vasudans can solve their conflicts, the Vishnans and Shivans for a brief moment will observe and realize the miracle of creation, the value of an alliance. Indeed brief, but clear and evident enough to realize the importance of their roles: destruction and preservation, again in perfect balance to resume their part in creation again for the next few billion years.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on June 30, 2011, 11:20:27 am
That's a rather interesting theory...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 01, 2011, 02:42:32 am
So the Brahmans are kinda like a religious idol for both species. Something they think was real, when it only really is the manifestation of their own wishes and because they were so fixated on "their part" of the alliance, they forgot how to do anything beyond that purpose and thus the higher goal moved on into myth.
That certainly would make an interresting storyline, though I'm not sure we will ever learn enough about either species for such ideas to make it into BP... anyone planning on doing a campaign as a Vishnan or Shivan?

It also has a very Babylon 5ish feel to it, where the Shadows and Vorlons worked together toward a common goal (despite their drastically different approaches to it), but over the course of the millenia the question of who was right became more important to them than the actual goal (helping the younger races evolve).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on July 01, 2011, 12:19:08 pm
So the Brahmans are kinda like a religious idol for both species. Something they think was real, when it only really is the manifestation of their own wishes and because they were so fixated on "their part" of the alliance, they forgot how to do anything beyond that purpose and thus the higher goal moved on into myth.
That certainly would make an interresting storyline, though I'm not sure we will ever learn enough about either species for such ideas to make it into BP... anyone planning on doing a campaign as a Vishnan or Shivan?

It also has a very Babylon 5ish feel to it, where the Shadows and Vorlons worked together toward a common goal (despite their drastically different approaches to it), but over the course of the millenia the question of who was right became more important to them than the actual goal (helping the younger races evolve).

Haven't seen enough of B5 to compare the two, nor have I seen it beyond the season where Earth was freed from a dictator (even so have only seen episodes on occasion). But I guess many myths and scifi's have such a theme in common there. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 02, 2011, 03:23:26 pm
The season were earth was freed from a dictator was the 4th out of 5 seasons, so if you had seen every episode up to there, you'd have seen the vast majority of B5.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 02, 2011, 03:24:43 pm
And while Season 5 isn't bad, strictly speaking, it lacks the narrative drive that made Seasons 2 through 4 so awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on July 02, 2011, 07:48:29 pm
The season were earth was freed from a dictator was the 4th out of 5 seasons, so if you had seen every episode up to there, you'd have seen the vast majority of B5.

Dutch TV broadcasted it in chunks, sometimes with up to almost 2 years of rehearsals. It's only the last few years that they buy recent series here. But I'll rewatch those series someday. Was long ago that I saw them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on July 02, 2011, 08:15:45 pm
And while Season 5 isn't bad, strictly speaking, it lacks the narrative drive that made Seasons 2 through 4 so awesome.

The biggest problem with season 5 was that they didn't plan for it to happen the way it did. During the shooting of season 4 they didn't know if there would be a season 5, so everything that was supposed to go there get crammed into season 4.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Anjelus on July 02, 2011, 08:41:54 pm
Season 5 is a mixed bag. The first half dealing with the telepaths is mostly pretty bad, but then they were always a weak link in the show.  The second half that focuses on Londo though is as good as anything B5 did before though, he and G'Kar are the strongest characters in the show in my opinion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 04, 2011, 12:29:10 pm
The problem with all the mythology behind ideas that may end up seeming to be simplistic, like the Shivans being the destroyers who know nothing about "creation" and the Vishnans the creators who know nothing about "destruction" is that they run against the most basic fundamental questions, and are clearly a dumbification of these species, instead of a complexification, something that we would expect in a more evolved species through time.

The most fundamental questions I'm talking about are of the nature of consistency. If the shivans only know how to destroy, who builds their ships? Who is responsible for the maintenance of their empire (thousands of years of the 2 law of thermodynamics will demand from you a little "creativity" energy to compensate, I'd say)? And on the other side, how come the Vishnans are able to fight the shivans, if they are so unable to "destroy"? They seem as competent as it gets, albeit at one point they decide to trust Bei's instincts (but even that decision is a tactical aggressive one, to find a path to better fight the shivans, even if taken at face value).

So while I did enjoy reading that, Sara, specially for the huge irony of what your explanation implies (and I'm a big, big fan of irony, so I really liked that part) I'm still not buying this simplification. It's like an insult to my (the player) intelligence. Are we really to believe that these two amazing species are so oblivious to the nature of creating things, or to their own natures? It's so counter-intuitive...

Make these Shivans and Vishnans more intelligent within your mythos, and I'll buy it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 05, 2011, 04:00:22 am
Maybe you take us a bit too literal here. Only knowing about creation/protection means, they just never consider going on the offensive. They put up a defensive line or jump in to protect others already under attack*, but without outside influence, they don't just charge into enemy terretory.** The Vishnan pilots even say "We destroy to preserve" when you order them to attack.
Spoiler:
*Like the mission were the Vishnans first showed up in force, destroying a demon and two ravanas bearing down on the Temeraire's group.
**Technically even the push through Shivans lines was a defensive action, since they rushed in to save the Orestes.

And even if you take the Shivans literally, they could be something like the Macross Zentradi. Their ships are all constructed by automated station left to them by their creators, the protocultue. They don't know how to build ships or weapons or anything else, but those automated factories supply them with all they need to continue their wars. They don't know how to maintain their ships either, but the ships are sophisticated and robust enough to last for milennia without maintanance. Once a ship breaks down, it's simply abondened.

I don't think the Shivans are that extreme, but that they have weapons that have the majority of their damage potential "locked up" might mean, they don't really understand the technology they use (either that or they are intentionally holding back, or someone else is pulling their strings ordering them to go in with the gloves on). Them only replicating their ships and weapons from some original without ever modifiying it (either because they don't know how, or because it would be sacrilege) would be one way to explain that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 05, 2011, 10:33:47 am
Yeah, that tastes better.

And you wanna know the part I like better? Your Orwellian quote "We destroy to preserve", which is delicious in itself, as if they have to convince themselves (and/or Bei) that they are not doing what they are actually doing.

This paradox / inconsistency within pacifistic/conservationist ideologies is clearly an indication that species can't be differentiated so much in their ideologies if they are to survive in the cosmos. They have to preserve themselves and whatever they feel is precious to them. Having this point in consideration, I see no difference between the shivans and the vishnans, they only differ in what they want to "preserve".

Your point about shivans using an automated factory (or factories) is interesting and curious. I would want to know more about that, in a way that would be interesting. The problem with it is that it dumbifies and vulgarizes shivans into stupid easy riders of ancient technologies to bully everyone else, wiping out the lovecraftian mysterious charisma that they have in FS2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on July 05, 2011, 11:51:59 am
So one way to put it is...'don't define the Shivans'...?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 05, 2011, 12:17:15 pm
Or define them in the campaign and then at the end smash those definitions to the garbage can where they should belong.

IOW, mindrape the players. You know you want it ;).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 05, 2011, 01:59:15 pm
I hate arsepulls.

:doubt:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 05, 2011, 02:03:27 pm
Snail hates arsepulls

FS is filled with arsepulls

therefore Snail hates FS
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on July 05, 2011, 02:04:43 pm
I hate arsepulls.

:doubt:
That's not what MarsofWar said
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 05, 2011, 06:39:10 pm
Snail hates arsepulls

FS is filled with arsepulls

therefore Snail hates FS

Luis Dias is unable to distinguish between limited viewpoint and arsepulls.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 06, 2011, 03:12:01 am
The Uckfay is an Arsepull?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 06, 2011, 01:24:27 pm
So the constant arsepuls of "Hey we are totally bashing the Shiv... " BEZZZZ BEAMRAPE BY RAVANA

"Ok, let's crack this nut, well we are on top again, we are surely DA BES...." BEEAZZZZZ BEAMRAPE BY SATHANAS

"Sigh, ok let's get this **** done, hey look we did it we are so ****ing Godlik...." BEEAZZZZZ BEAMRAPE BY SATHANAS FLEET


didn't happen and were all within my delusions?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 06, 2011, 01:29:09 pm
:rolleyes:

Those aren't arsepulls.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 06, 2011, 01:30:09 pm
Ah, ok so what is an arsepul?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 06, 2011, 01:33:05 pm
There is a difference between a plot twist and a PLOT TWEEEEEST!

PLOT TWEEEESTS tend to be things that make things that came prior to them make no sense at all. Go watch some M. Night Shyamamlanan for examples.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 06, 2011, 01:35:50 pm
Ok, so whatever I was proposing, it surely wasn't that.

Although I admit I did enjoy the sixth sense, and, say, the usual suspects.

But whatever plot twist one should imagine, it wouldn't be a stupid "**** whatever you saw earlier" one. I also didn't say it would be easy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 06, 2011, 05:30:42 pm
didn't happen and were all within my delusions?

Luis Dias is unable to distinguish between limited viewpoint and arsepulls.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 06, 2011, 05:49:53 pm
Or perhaps I'm more demanding than you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 06, 2011, 06:11:06 pm
Or perhaps I'm more demanding than you.

No, you're not. I'd say you're considerably less demanding, in fact, since it's clear you don't have the drive to comprehend the setting and the tools used to convey it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 06, 2011, 06:13:35 pm
Yeah I'm just stupid like that. Thanks for that info.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 07, 2011, 07:02:31 am
Ok, so whatever I was proposing, it surely wasn't that.
You said, and I quote:

Or define them in the campaign and then at the end smash those definitions to the garbage can where they should belong.

IOW, mindrape the players.


WHAT A TWEEEEEEST
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 07:06:44 am
Not if it is done correctly, like say in an investigatorial manner, alpha 1 is led to believe in a certain narrative and certain nature of shivans. Clues will slightly deceive you to confirmation. Some dark itch within your head still lurks though. There's something wrong in the narrative. And in the later part, you begin to realise that your anterior notions were wrong due to the lacking of a key information that shatters your pathetic ideas to the ground. Now you end up not understanding the shivans again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on July 07, 2011, 09:28:20 am
Either way I often see a lot of reasoning being done from a Homosapien perspective when you try to reason or approach issues Luis. You seem to have read a lot, have a lot of recallable knowledge, but you're applying what you know by comparing apples to pears. Something not developed under the same conditions we excist in (be it a different planet, temperature, lack of presence of natural threats, heck living in completely different universe with entirely different laws of physics and time) may have entirely different motivations, perspectives and morals. Per example, something could communicate and reason within a certain set of parametres to fulfill it's reason for, or way of excistence as effective as possible without actually being self-aware. Beings with a thoughtpattern we can at best only vaguely compare to OCD, or sociopathy. Non-corporeal energy with a god-complex and the nasty tendency to destroye and erase anything clashing with prime numbers, because they cannot oversee anything else than primes and innocently believe that to be a cosmic mistake which needs fixing. Even as a member of Homosapiens I try to still link these examples back to things as we know them, but one cannot play the anthropologist without immersing into a different culture, or be a sociologist while not staying to some extent statistic and unbiased. I know I'd never try to apply freudian psychoanalysis to my canine. :rolleyes: Why compare Shivans or Vishnans psychology to that of humans?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 09:57:24 am
Thing is, pretty much all the possibilities you enumerate are also human, Sara. And you're right, we are doomed into thinking in an homosapien perspective. Still, we try our best to think out of it, or at least rephrase the same human psychologies in alien paradigms and contexts, making them strange enough, and by and large I think we have succeeded quite a few things in the past century.

Just consider darwinism and how it shred to pieces our concepts of what is a mind, what is altruism, pleasure, morals, etc. Consider the dangers lurking beneath the proposition of the "semantical apocalypse". These thoughts would be utterly alien to the nineteenth century person (with some notable exceptions, like say Nietzsche). I think that we are doing a pretty good job at imagining new ideas and concepts, it's just that we would like to be more productive in that regard. But imagining the novel is not easy ;).

As for me being too homosapien, you're probably right, but I do have some defenses there. It's not "human" per se to deny both ultra-pacifism and ultra-aggressiveness, but the end result of a certain kind of "natural selection" weeding out those extremes from being used in reality by any species. Not because they aren't human, but rather because they are both inneficient and self-destructing.

But I'm willing to admit my denialism if you counter by saying that you are thinking about shivans et al as part of a deeper balanced ecossystem trapped inside an attractor, that forces both shivans and vishnans to behave like they do for a really long time, stagnating them both into a steady state of vulgarity and lack of new achievements. They don't know how to create any more, and they are also stopping any other new species to threaten their own authority and presence on the galaxy by burning them to the ground before they start to compete.

Sort of like microsoft in the end nineties against all else.

See? It's like impossible to me not to think humanlike. What I also propose is that this is also true for all your ideas as well ;).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 07, 2011, 10:52:35 am
Man I definitely got to read this while stoned! What I will say, within the confines of my young, uninitiated mind, is that BP is a human story and any characteristics the Vishnans or Shivans have will be human characteristics. Because that's simply all we can relate to and sympathise with, which is the whole point of storytelling. Even an antagonist has human qualities, be it a super-computer, dog, a car etc.

Not if it is done correctly, like say in an investigatorial manner, alpha 1 is led to believe in a certain narrative and certain nature of shivans. Clues will slightly deceive you to confirmation. Some dark itch within your head still lurks though. There's something wrong in the narrative. And in the later part, you begin to realise that your anterior notions were wrong due to the lacking of a key information that shatters your pathetic ideas to the ground. Now you end up not understanding the shivans again.

The thing is though we aren't actually being given a clear definiton on the Shivans to contradict, or a clear idea on just wtf is going on. We have a set of facts such as Nagari individuals aren't hearing Vishnans anymore, Laporte is being influenced by Ken (who may or may not be a Shivan) and a message from cargo containers that means DariusGod knows what. It's been stated (in the vid commentaries) that if you can join together some of the dots you can probably anticipate what will happen next. Since most of us aren't very smart (you know who you are) this isn't likely to happen for most of the player base, so I don't see anyone forming a concrete idea to be knocked down, if you get what I mean.

If, say for instance, all the evidence pointed to the Shivans invading or some other comparable event and something entirely different were to happen then I could agree with you. Fact is the though all the evidence points to...well f*ck knows really, only the storyteller knows, unless you're as smart as the storyteller...which I'm not. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 11:29:06 am
I didn't say this was already happening in BP, Buckshee. I was only proposing stuff to the airwaves, and it may resonate in one mind or not and within 15 years could be somewhat used in any form on some unknown mod.

IOW, I'm just talking.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 07, 2011, 11:54:31 am
Fair dooz, there's a fine line between a plot twist and a cop out though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 12:04:01 pm
I'm not demanding bad plots, if that's your question.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 07, 2011, 12:34:15 pm
Oh there's plenty out there without demanding for it. Any recent Shyamalan film for instance...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 07, 2011, 12:37:54 pm
We've gone through this before. I think we settled on "Luis Dias does not understand plot."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 01:12:51 pm
And I think we've also established that that is an insult, and not really an argument.

Look, I can take your insult lightheartedly if only you explain it to me why I don't "get it". As if I was 3 years old.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on July 07, 2011, 01:18:48 pm
Happy hour over? :)

Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on July 07, 2011, 01:26:24 pm
Colossus/Amaterasu, Laporte C-4-1ing the Shivans/Vishnans, Khonsu II with a GVBB Vasuda, Shivan Subspace Rift cannon, Vishnan plot beams.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 07, 2011, 01:26:57 pm
IOW, I'm just talking.

Y'know, using a literal troll catchphrase isn't helping your case.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 07, 2011, 01:39:26 pm
Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?
GTVA - Zerg rush destroyers because TrashMan gets appointed to Sol theater after Steele slips and dies in the bath
UEF - Byrne's special project turns out to be the TSJ Icanus from Inferno
Vasudans - Vasudans have some Nagari phenomenon of their own (something to do with that one guy in the dossiers) and talk to teh Shivans
Shivans - destroy-universe SEXP
Vishnans - preserve-universe SEXP
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 07, 2011, 01:44:18 pm
Happy hour over? :)

Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?
Counterquestion: Do the Shivans and Vishnans even have sleeves?
Also the Vasudans for that matter. I've seen Vasudans, but except for the pilots in their flight suits (they can't hide anything in the sleeves, since they need to be vacuum-proof) they seemed to be naked.

Anyway: The Shivans and Vishnans don't really need a surprise, thanks to those overpowered monsterships they have (Dante and however the Preserver's shipclass is called). With the GTVA I think their trumpcard are more political backstabbing, ambushes and tactical manouvering, rather than any surprising new technology/supership (I'm not saying they won't have any new toys mind you, after all their new mini-cruiser is already confirmed).
And the UEF still has their secret project going, whatever that may be. I suppose we can rule out the supership, since that would be far too cliché for BP, not to mention rather unlikely to be finished in 18 month and total secrecy. One hell of a trump would be material that proofs Steeles manipulation of the Vasudans and a way to let the Vasudans know and beliefe it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 01:53:33 pm
Damn, I only proposed to be surprised by some "amazing" plot twist that bewilders our petty prejudices, and suddenly and automatically I don't "get" plots, coz I'm just stupid like that. Of course I'm angry.

About your question is a far more pleasing and interesting one. Therefore I won't answer it. :lol:


No, really. It's a tough question. GTVA is on the higher ground now, so it's up to the UEF to show its own trump cards. It logically follows from the last cutscene that this trump card may have something to do with the Fedayeen, portrayed as a special group with special powers (like the spectres, say). More generally, they could theoretically resort to guerilla tactics and delay GTVA's victory as far as possible, since it's clear that bombing Earth is really out of the question.

However, they ought to be able to protect the council in any way, shape or form, and I'm both stunned at how is supposed the GTVA to strike them out, or UEF to protect them. IOW, I'm still somewhat at a loss where the black king in the chess board is supposed to be (something quite central to the game's strategy and tactics to be deployed, I'd say).

Now what particular trump card will the Fedayeen take out of their ass? Hard to predict, could be anything that crosses the minds of BP writers. A new stealth technology? A new fighter? Dunno.


GTVA? They still haven't used a lot of technical capabilities we might find in WiH2. Like tagging missiles, for instance, or the Pegasus. They showed brilliant schemes to wipe out ships in the first episode. I don't think we've seen it all. Their strategy should / could be heavily influenced / inspired by Delenda Est, to bring out timid UEF frigates & destroyers to the open so they can defeat them. Traps will be planned and tried to make. A mission outline where Laporte in a stealth fighter finds out about an incoming trap to a certain UEF battlegroup (and then further stress to get out fast to warn them... probably ending up in failure) feels possible.


Shivans are moddeled as if they were Shadows with their obscure psychological manipulations?

Vishnans haven't made an appearance in this universe yet. I have no idea where BP writers will take them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 01:54:46 pm
IOW, I'm just talking.

Y'know, using a literal troll catchphrase isn't helping your case.

WTF is wrong with you. This IS a thread where we are JUST TALKING about stuff.

FFS, did you woke up in the wrong side of the bed or smth?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 07, 2011, 02:20:17 pm
I wouldn't take it so hard Luis, if you get pissed off at stuff NGTM says you'll be pissed for a long time, just leave it.

The GTVA can and does play to it's strengths, which is what makes them such an effective military force. The problem with the UEF is that they have such brilliant potential in ships like the Durga and the ability to hit opponents beyond beam range, but they don't use these strengths quite as effectively as they could. When they do however they are definitely a force to be reckoned with. We know the UEF only has 6 months left to fight and on top of that a pending assault by Steele, backed by Vasudan logistics and possibly direct military support.

The Fedayeen have their work cut out for them. I'm really looking forward to seeing more of them and the Gef in WiH2.

TAG missiles were used during Post Meridian (which still remains my favourite mission). The Juarez beams your ass if you get hit. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 07, 2011, 03:03:59 pm
WTF is wrong with you. This IS a thread where we are JUST TALKING about stuff.

FFS, did you woke up in the wrong side of the bed or smth?

In simplest terms you've demonstrated, repeatedly, in this very thread, that you don't understand the concept of viewpoint and how it relates to storytelling and my distaste for you is that of a professional for an amateur. Note that I am doing a considerable disservice to actual amateurs at fiction by saying so, since most of them are at least able to understand the limitations of first-person viewpoints.

In simplest terms, you continue to label things asspulls when the story, told from a first-person and decidedly limited viewpoint, can very realistically not touch on them before they come up and therefore they could have always existed and, more importantly, been planned from the start, rather than the implied accusation that the writers are making **** up as they go along. Not only do you demonstrate a blatant disregard for the art and the science of storytelling, but for the skills of the BP team.

So yes, that does annoy me a good bit. It annoys Snail a good bit too it seems. I daresay it annoys the BP folks a good bit. And I would prefer you cease your commentary on things which you clearly are not equipped by your experience to commentate on, if you don't understand something as simple as the difference between first person limited and third person omniscient.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2011, 03:16:47 pm
Of course I don't understand any of the complexificated words you are talking about. Fiction? Viewpoint? Storytelling? Please someone buy me a dictionary already.

I have made no such mistakes you accuse me of, except for one. I did sincerely asked what an "arsepull" was because google didn't help me on that one. I'm SO SORRY I am not a native english speaker so the term didn't flow into my brain as naturally as it does to yours. I did ask naturally because my initial idea was dissed as such. If my idea is "dissable" as such, then so the FS2 plot is "dissable" as one, since what I was proposing was something similar to, but with different methods than, FS2 main plot.

And finally how the hell proposing to be stunned by the plot is something that "hurts" the BP folks is quite beyond me, I think you are smoking something really hard by now. Until you calm down yourself, I won't reply to you anymore, it's getting ****ing ridiculous on your part.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 07, 2011, 03:52:23 pm
(http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll214/Masenkoe2/Forums/whats-going-on-in-this-thread-1.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 07, 2011, 04:31:14 pm
Something different before everyone explodes: What trump cards do you all expect the GTVA, UEF, Vasudans, Shivans and Vishnans have up their sleeves?
GTVA - Zerg rush destroyers because TrashMan gets appointed to Sol theater after Steele slips and dies in the bath
UEF - Byrne's special project turns out to be the TSJ Icanus from Inferno
Vasudans - Vasudans have some Nagari phenomenon of their own (something to do with that one guy in the dossiers) and talk to teh Shivans
Shivans - destroy-universe SEXP
Vishnans - preserve-universe SEXP


I REALLY REALLY hope that's how Steele dies. I just laughed so hard I farted.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 07, 2011, 04:56:47 pm
I think Steele's going to end up dying heroically, attempting to save Earth from the mistakes of the UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: pecenipicek on July 07, 2011, 05:07:24 pm
i truly hope all of you tevs burn.



[/buntu]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 07, 2011, 05:07:49 pm
By save you must mean glass it to the stone age of course. "We destroy to preserve" :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 07, 2011, 05:10:25 pm
Steele dies due to the cleaning staff forgetting to put up a Caution Wet Floor sign up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on July 07, 2011, 05:14:25 pm
I think Steele's going to end up dying heroically, attempting to save Earth from the mistakes of the UEF.
Why does he have to die? He could easily have a contingency for that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 07, 2011, 05:20:45 pm
Like this?

when
-true
-set-character-guardian
--steele
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 07, 2011, 05:37:27 pm
Steele dies due to the cleaning staff forgetting to put up a Caution Wet Floor sign up.

Steele will only die when it is necessary to become Bill Adama for Diaspora.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 07, 2011, 05:56:05 pm
I picture a large Shivan fleet congregating around Earth, the UEF fleet being utterly ****ed, and the Atreus and Imp jumping in and saving the day in a high-loss battle for survival.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 07, 2011, 06:24:17 pm
I imagine if it comes to that cooperation would have happened way prior.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on July 07, 2011, 08:06:12 pm
after Steele slips and dies in the bath
Sounds familiar (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=46714.msg952276#msg952276). :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 07, 2011, 08:07:34 pm
I somehow think that Steele might make it through WIH II unscathed, but that's the death I would envision for him if he was to die.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 08, 2011, 03:23:36 am
I don't really care how he dies, as long as he dies... preferably in BP3, after his manipulations of the Vasudans got out and he got punished for it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 08, 2011, 05:36:59 am
I somehow think that Steele might make it through WIH II unscathed, but that's the death I would envision for him if he was to die.

Nah, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. He'll get what's coming to him.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on July 08, 2011, 05:51:11 am
Nah, you live by the sword, you die by the sword. He'll get what's coming to him.
A fat juicy steak and promotion?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2011, 06:27:23 am
Steele gets depromoted to a figther pilot and we get to play him in BP3!!

Unprecedented number of alpha1 suicides strangely occurs afterwards, due to just general pucking by the gaming community!

BP writers laughing their asses off at the outcome!

Asteroid impacts earth and all ensuing discussions on who ****ed up BP reliefly close to an end.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on July 08, 2011, 10:13:23 am
I don't want Steele to die. Just because he's Machiavellian doesn't mean he should be killed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logistics on July 08, 2011, 10:21:00 am
I don't want Steele to die. Just because he's Machiavellian doesn't mean he should be killed.

But quite entertaining.

Honestly, the man is a risk taker. Live by the sword, die by the sword. He'll take one too many chances, and it'll blow up in his face spectacularly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on July 08, 2011, 10:23:59 am
As long as he doesn't just die because he pushed his jump drives too hard. That would be spectacularly anticlimatic.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 08, 2011, 11:24:41 am
Nah, he will die crashing the Atreus straight into the Dante, while opening a subspace...just like the Dominus Astra^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 08, 2011, 11:35:25 am
As long as he doesn't just die because he pushed his jump drives too hard. That would be spectacularly anticlimatic.

And that's exactly why it should happen. :p

Seriously, WiH doesn't do ridiculous heroic deaths, and that's a large part of what makes it work. How many ships have made some heroic speech and charged a destroyer only to get zomgwtfbeamraped before they get anywhere close?

I can think of at least six off the top of my head, two of them with "ramming speed" thrown in for good measure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2011, 11:56:58 am
I haven't the slightest clue on how no one has figured out before that if you warp your cruiser / frigate or even a destroyer into the very core of a shivan juggernaugth like the Dante, you'd probably have an amazing ratio between your losses and shivan's.

Alternatively, one could install a subspace drive into a big asteroid and warp it inside uninvited big warships. Create a bunch of said asteroids! I'd say it would cost a lot less than wasting your own vessels risking the lives of so many crewmembers...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 08, 2011, 12:06:14 pm
As long as he doesn't just die because he pushed his jump drives too hard. That would be spectacularly anticlimatic.

And that's exactly why it should happen. :p

Seriously, WiH doesn't do ridiculous heroic deaths, and that's a large part of what makes it work. How many ships have made some heroic speech and charged a destroyer only to get zomgwtfbeamraped before they get anywhere close?

I can think of at least six off the top of my head, two of them with "ramming speed" thrown in for good measure.
How about the crew of the Nelson? Or the Captain of the Ironhide? The majority of the Wargods? The crew of the Valarie?

WIH is full of heroic deaths.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on July 08, 2011, 12:07:27 pm
It's implied that Terran jump technology is not nearly accurate enough for that, and that Shivan technology might not even be good enough either.

A non-canon reason is that subspace reacts poorly to high gravity situations, which suggests that it doesn't like matter very much. It might not be possible to open a rift within matter at all.

On that note, SSM strikes are pretty close to what you're suggesting. Warp them in as close as possible, and let them fly the rest of the way.

A more plausible usage of raw subspace as a weapon is to activate a drive within a cargo hold or something. It would open a rift to subspace, which is presumably vacuum and capable of accelerating Orions to 120m/s. It could be a really expensive version of a pocket nuke or a warhead "payload".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2011, 12:08:09 pm
Yeah reading Trashman talking about BP is the bizarrest thing. Almost makes me believe I'm living in an alternative universe and somehow the vishnans brought me here in a subspace queerness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2011, 12:12:06 pm
It's implied that Terran jump technology is not nearly accurate enough for that, and that Shivan technology might not even be good enough either.

A non-canon reason is that subspace reacts poorly to high gravity situations, which suggests that it doesn't like matter very much. It might not be possible to open a rift within matter at all.

It's all about writing choices. I agree it would make a very unreasonable war, or at least not fun anymore. Rule of fun dictates therefore that this idea be thrown in the garbage.

Quote
On that note, SSM strikes are pretty close to what you're suggesting. Warp them in as close as possible, and let them fly the rest of the way.

Right on. I was almost mentioning that but I went for minimalism.

Quote
A more plausible usage of raw subspace as a weapon is to activate a drive within a cargo hold or something. It would open a rift to subspace, which is presumably vacuum and capable of accelerating Orions to 120m/s. It could be a really expensive version of a pocket nuke or a warhead "payload".

Hmmm dunno... seems convoluted.... ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Timerlane on July 08, 2011, 12:27:01 pm
Personally, I'd also probably be surprised if there's no subspace ramifications to blowing up large ships in/next to an open subspace aperture. Maybe not a risk of outright collapse, like being directly at an open node proper, but perhaps a shortening of the lifespans of the 'stable' notes in the system would result.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on July 08, 2011, 12:41:27 pm
Maybe warping directly into another ship just disperses your own ship across the system. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2011, 12:43:36 pm
Perhaps you can somehow mess up with the wormhole created by an enemy ship, and place its emerging vortex in a different place than the one the enemy ship was originally planning.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on July 08, 2011, 12:47:39 pm
On the subject of subspace, I wonder if a ship can pull a bonehead maneuver using UEF subspace gates.

For those of you who don't know what the bonehead maneuver is, it is from Babylon 5 and involves a ship opening a hyperspace window inside the hyperspace window already opened by a hyperspace gate.  The two dimensional vortexes interact and KABOOM!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 08, 2011, 02:50:16 pm
As long as he doesn't just die because he pushed his jump drives too hard. That would be spectacularly anticlimatic.

And that's exactly why it should happen. :p

Seriously, WiH doesn't do ridiculous heroic deaths, and that's a large part of what makes it work. How many ships have made some heroic speech and charged a destroyer only to get zomgwtfbeamraped before they get anywhere close?

I can think of at least six off the top of my head, two of them with "ramming speed" thrown in for good measure.
How about the crew of the Nelson? Or the Captain of the Ironhide? The majority of the Wargods? The crew of the Valarie?

WIH is full of heroic deaths.

Thank you for listing a bunch of ships that

Quote
made some heroic speech and charged a destroyer only to get zomgwtfbeamraped before they get anywhere close

EDIT: On reflection, "heroic" was poor word choice on my part. I'm referring to the glorious covered-in-the-blood-of-my-enemies sort of death that a lot of people seem to want for Steele.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on July 08, 2011, 03:45:46 pm
Well, subspace rifts seem to be effectively "invisible" to anything that didn't create it/isn't sharing its resonance frequency (tech description on subspace or subspace drives mentions this I think). I use "invisible" here to mean that no other matter or energy seems to be able to interact with it. (Let's ignore the fact that it glows bright blue)

Since you can't fly into a warp hole made by something else, I imagine that blowing stuff up beside it won't do anything to the hole at all. More on this logic, it gives a reason for why you can't use raw subspace as a weapon: it doesn't interact with anything except for whatever the drive is linked to. Presumably a linkage is more than "it's touching" and is more demanding, such as being specially wired into the rest of the ship.



OMGOMGOMG someone should hack a capital ship and force it to crash jump to random coords. Or mess with the Nav enough so that you can't guarantee an accurate jump. If you can screw with beam turrets, why can't you screw with subspace drives? ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 08, 2011, 04:07:25 pm
Kol, I ninja'ed you on that one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Timerlane on July 08, 2011, 05:28:50 pm
Well, subspace rifts seem to be effectively "invisible" to anything that didn't create it/isn't sharing its resonance frequency (tech description on subspace or subspace drives mentions this I think). I use "invisible" here to mean that no other matter or energy seems to be able to interact with it. (Let's ignore the fact that it glows bright blue)

Since you can't fly into a warp hole made by something else, I imagine that blowing stuff up beside it won't do anything to the hole at all. More on this logic, it gives a reason for why you can't use raw subspace as a weapon: it doesn't interact with anything except for whatever the drive is linked to. Presumably a linkage is more than "it's touching" and is more demanding, such as being specially wired into the rest of the ship.
Two canon problems with the assumptions; Freighters/cargo and other docked ships(including a GTFR Chronos hauling the unwilling/foreign-tech Taranis Cain-class cruiser through subspace), and the Endgame cutscene(Lucifer's rift opens, everyone comes out).

In the latter case, one could possibly blame game engine limitations for never seeing shared subspace rifts in-game, and the fact that until near the end, there weren't supposed to be non-Shivan fighter-size intersystem subspace drives(ignore Vasudan escort fighters from as early on as 'The Hammer and the Anvil'*), so apart from large fleet/convoy movements, there'd be little opportunity to show ships jumping through shared rifts, apart from docked vessels.

*the Vasudan fighters due to take guard of the shield prototypes at the node; if they didn't have intersystem drives, how would they have escorted the convoy into the next system? :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 08, 2011, 05:43:37 pm
Subspace is a means of travel, one we don't know a lot about. If you start having it in campaigns as a weapon you can make up all sorts of ridiculous abilities. I like it the way it is, since it can be used skillfully as a FRED element in it's own right, one of the many things that made Vassago's Dirge so stunningly good.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on July 09, 2011, 11:21:39 am
The way I thought of jump nodes and sharing tunnels is that each ship traverses their own independent tunnel depending on what frequency they used to open it. If everyone just picks the first random one that worked, then they'd all use different tunnels but end up at the same place at the same time once they exit.

If you can track a ship through subspace, it means you can know of its resonance frequency/pattern. Duplicate it, and you're in the same tunnel.

As for cargo, I figured that somehow the docking mechanism does something to carry the object through subspace with it. I guess if the coupling mechanism was too complicated, it'd be impossible to get a human pilot, and all the secondary ordinance, to follow his/her ship into the rift. Maybe simple contact is in fact all it takes.

I do agree though, using subspace as a weapon would probably introduce all sorts of weirdness. Because it messes with space time and contact with parallel universes, people probably don't want to abuse it that much.

@ Luis: yeah, whoops >.>
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 10, 2011, 09:09:44 am
It's me again^^
After reading through the wiki, specifically the AoA walkthrough...did the Temeraire realy defect to the UEF?
And with the Carthage being upgraded, could this be the as well done for the Aquitaine? Looks quite nice with helheim textures and some of the new weapons ;7
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 10, 2011, 09:12:19 am
After reading through the wiki, specifically the AoA walkthrough...did the Temeraire realy defect to the UEF?

No. The Fortune, Duke, and Labouchere defected.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 10, 2011, 09:16:50 am
Well, then someone should fix this:  http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Journey%27s_End (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Journey%27s_End)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 10, 2011, 09:32:49 am
Where on that page does it say anything about the Temeraire defecting?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 10, 2011, 09:38:04 am
Quote
Members of the project team have confirmed that both the GTD Temeraire and GTL Fortune were two of the ships in the battlegroup that defected post-mission.

1 GTD Titan

    Temeraire (#)
(#) Defected post-mission
Under notes and casualties.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 10, 2011, 10:02:03 am
Quote
Members of the project team have confirmed that both the GTD Temeraire and GTL Fortune were two of the ships in the battlegroup that defected post-mission.

wtf?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 10, 2011, 10:07:02 am
Wherever that comes from, it's definitely wrong. Might date back from pre-AoA DC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 10, 2011, 10:15:34 am
Should be cleared up now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 10, 2011, 10:27:29 am
It is, thank you :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 10, 2011, 10:43:31 am
Oh geez, the buntu with a Titan class destroyer.

THAT would be interesting, if they actually used it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 10, 2011, 10:57:06 am
It would be, if they had one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Asteroth on July 10, 2011, 12:16:55 pm
I could have sworn I saw the Temeraire jump out with the rest of the defectors at the end of AoA. I just assumed it was just being used in that mysterious project.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 10, 2011, 12:22:18 pm
Nope, just the Sanctuary and Admiral Bay, and your wingmen, jump out on screen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 11, 2011, 05:18:40 pm
So, speaking of Titans...

wtf was the Imperieuse doing during Aristeia? It's stated during the course of the mission that all major GTVA assets are tied down elsewhere--but we later find out that the Imperieuse was hiding in the Oort Cloud since the end of the blitz, and she would have had a couple weeks to be resupplied by the time the Agincourt reached the jump gate. Why not destroy the Indus and Yangtze and prevent the Agincourt from falling into UEF hands?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 11, 2011, 05:21:31 pm
Hiding something like the Imperieuse requires some tactical sacrifices. I'd expect a total or nearly total communication blackout. Maybe they just couldn't warn em.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 11, 2011, 05:27:26 pm
They were waiting for bigger fish to fry. Widen the net. Watch the rats being joyful while GTVA played with them. And when four Karunas showed their backside, nham nham nham.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 11, 2011, 05:37:47 pm
Exactly. Preventing the capture of the Agincourt would have been a good thing, but it would also mean that the Imp would have only scored 2 kills. The way Steele used the Imp was a deliberate gamble to not only bag an entire UEF task force, but also deliver a crushing blow to the already fragile fleet morale.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 11, 2011, 05:50:17 pm
Are 4 Karunas really more valuable than an Anemoi ? Let alone one Anemoi and 2 frigate kills in bonus. Or even the Big T, which was pretty vulnerable during that op. I don't think so.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 11, 2011, 05:52:23 pm
The problem is, that the Imp could not kill the Big T on her own and that her beams would be most likely jammed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 11, 2011, 05:56:37 pm
That's what the wargods thought in DE. Look how well that served em.

The tag trick that happened in DE would likely have happened in Aristeia prior to our hypothetical deployment of the Imperieuse.

Not to mention that the Imp is a battle carrier with full fighter/bomber complement. The Big T's bays were dry at that point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 11, 2011, 06:12:35 pm
Destroy to destroyer battles are probably something the GTVA wants to avoid if they can help it, better to risk 3 or 4 corvettes and a few squadrons than put yourself at equal risk to the enemy.

4 Karunas and a Sanctus is basically like losing two destroyers for the UEF, from what I understand, so yes, a very big deal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 11, 2011, 07:40:43 pm
I think I recall the briefing for "The Plunder" as referring to an Anemoi as "more valuable than any destroyer". Hyperbole to boost morale, perhaps, but I doubt it was a complete fabrication on the part of the speaker. Denying one to the enemy while at the same time preserving it for yourself has to count for quite a lot.

Plus, by deploying the Imperieuse early in during the battle at the jump gate instead of setting the trap at Saturn, the GTVA could have avoided:

+Heavy damage to most of Serkr Team
+The destruction of the Medea (a Diomedes is serious business, right?)
+Moderate damage to the Hood

Plus:
+The capture of a Deimos and an Aeolus
+The destruction of or severe damage to four Deimoses
+Moderate damage to the Carthage
+The destruction of THE CARTHAGE'S ENTIRE AIR WING DOWN TO THE LAST FIGHTER. That's not the type of thing that does wonders for a ship's morale, no matter how much Fed ass gets kicked as a result.

And possibly most important of all:
+The need to play insanely dangerous games with the Vasudans to get the GTVA's warships resupplied.

All that for a net gain of two Karunas and two Sanctusesiiae's destroyed (assuming the Indus was mission-killed and will have to be scrapped, which I think is a pretty safe bet). Letting the Altan Orde and Katana off the hook for the moment doesn't really seem like such a bad idea.

Of course the trump card of this argument is that having the Imperieuse jump in and zomgwtfhaxbeamrape everything twenty seconds in to Aristeia would have made for a pretty awful campaign. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 11, 2011, 07:57:29 pm
It just says "incredibly valuable" so I think its safe to say that a Raynor or Titan is probably more valuable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 11, 2011, 08:04:24 pm
Yes but LordPomposity makes a good argument about that plot hole. Not sure if it was explained away with some excuse or not, but I agree it's not the most robust of war plots one could imagine.

Now, we must also understand that the Sekr team "had it covered", were it not for the UEF beamz trick. So it made sense for the defense team to be what it was, and when **** was hitting the fan, Steele did bring up a Raynor (I think don't remember all too well).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 11, 2011, 08:14:04 pm
Remember that the forces present at the node were expected to hold. If the Imperiuse had been brought in, it may have destroyed the Karunas, but it would have been at risk from the Big T, and the element of surprise lost. At the point the Tev forces began to show signs of weakening, the best contingency for Steele was probably to wait.

A ship held back in reserve is always a bigger threat than a ship that is sortied.

As for the losses, the Tevs seem to have no particular difficulty repairing damaged ships. There's no information on how expensive Diomedes are, but corvettes in general seem to be glorified cruisers in the eyes of the GTVA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 11, 2011, 08:35:14 pm
Remember that the forces present at the node were expected to hold. If the Imperiuse had been brought in, it may have destroyed the Karunas, but it would have been at risk from the Big T, and the element of surprise lost. At the point the Tev forces began to show signs of weakening, the best contingency for Steele was probably to wait.

A ship held back in reserve is always a bigger threat than a ship that is sortied.
Yup, which is why Steele should have waited for the Big T to be sortied to jump the Imperieuse in. Which he didn't. He could have basically won the war in one shot. Where's your tactical genius now, huh ?

I have another hypothesis : The Temeraire wasn't hiding for all that time, it did transit to DS but came back sooner and its return was hidden. Maybe it was still in DS by that point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 11, 2011, 08:46:02 pm
Yup, which is why Steele should have waited for the Big T to be sortied to jump the Imperieuse in.
And swiftly lose it. The Titans rely entirely on their forward firepower for everything. As impressive as they are, an unsupported Titan is unlikely to take out a similarly uparmored Solaris before being defanged and destroyed. All of Serkr had already been expended, the Siren was destroyed, the most that could have escorted the Imp would be a few Deimos.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 11, 2011, 09:09:26 pm
Yup, which is why Steele should have waited for the Big T to be sortied to jump the Imperieuse in.
And swiftly lose it. The Titans rely entirely on their forward firepower for everything. As impressive as they are, an unsupported Titan is unlikely to take out a similarly uparmored Solaris before being defanged and destroyed. All of Serkr had already been expended, the Siren was destroyed, the most that could have escorted the Imp would be a few Deimos.
I'll agree with that. Slap the two in FRED together, and a Solaris will utterly curbstomp a Titan--even if the Titan has the most optimal engagement angle possible. There's more to actual battles than FRED, of course, but the discrepancy is pretty large. There's still the mentioned-above point that the Imperieuse had a full fighter complement while the Toutatis was empty, but sending the Imperieuse after the Toutatis would still have been an excessive risk at the very best.

Then again so is propping up terrorists against your allies, but whatever. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 11, 2011, 09:19:50 pm
I think the Titan and Raynor are tougher against the Solaris in BP canon, but even if they were equivalent warships, its an awful risk.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 11, 2011, 09:33:12 pm
You are assuming that the Imperieuse would win that war if deployed. I have my reservations about that. And even if true, that fight was being fought by UEF terms with new tricks up their sleeves and the overall tactical superiority on their side. GTVA was caught red handed on that one, still tried to correct things by bringing the Diomedes. Toutatis only jumped in in the last few seconds. Notice that if they brought the Imperieuse, the Hood would completely fall. Why? Because they couldn't leave the Imperieuse all by itself trying to deal with the Toutatis and a duel of Karunas. So they would have to leave the Hood to defend the Imperieuse, but it would fall on the spot. And then the Imperieuse would be in a real tight situation, with uncertainty looming big at its chances.

Steele was rather a gentleman. He recognized superior tactics and had a cool head. He knew how to let go.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 11, 2011, 10:07:39 pm
Also, that's the same reason you don't see a full fleet on fleet engagement between the GTVA and UEF, their forces are even enough to existentially threaten each other. The reason there was no imp in that mission is the same reason a Solaris doesn't show up at the Sol jump node.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on July 12, 2011, 12:11:09 am
Yup, which is why Steele should have waited for the Big T to be sortied to jump the Imperieuse in.
And swiftly lose it. The Titans rely entirely on their forward firepower for everything. As impressive as they are, an unsupported Titan is unlikely to take out a similarly uparmored Solaris before being defanged and destroyed. All of Serkr had already been expended, the Siren was destroyed, the most that could have escorted the Imp would be a few Deimos.


As I recall Serkr team was still out and about. The Marcus Glaive, Hydra, and Pilum all made it through WiH. Serkr + Imperieuse + shock jump = one really dead Solaris.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 12, 2011, 01:25:06 am
Also, that's the same reason you don't see a full fleet on fleet engagement between the GTVA and UEF, their forces are even enough to existentially threaten each other. The reason there was no imp in that mission is the same reason a Solaris doesn't show up at the Sol jump node.
Exactly. Everybody seems to be forgetting there's still a whole UEF bomber corp out there. If the Imp had warped in, with minimal fighter support too, it would have been swiftly defanged and smashed by gunships/durgas. 2nd/3rd fleets were both occupied, but I'm sure even conservative 1st fleet wouldn't have missed such a golden opportunity.

Yup, which is why Steele should have waited for the Big T to be sortied to jump the Imperieuse in.
And swiftly lose it. The Titans rely entirely on their forward firepower for everything. As impressive as they are, an unsupported Titan is unlikely to take out a similarly uparmored Solaris before being defanged and destroyed. All of Serkr had already been expended, the Siren was destroyed, the most that could have escorted the Imp would be a few Deimos.


As I recall Serkr team was still out and about. The Marcus Glaive, Hydra, and Pilum all made it through WiH. Serkr + Imperieuse + shock jump = one really dead Solaris.

Still being beam jammed? Remember too that the GTVA was only just able to track the Agincourt and block the intrasystem gate, for a great deal of time they had no idea where it was. They were just able to deploy Serkr and the Hood. I don't see an unescorted Titan being really useful. This is supposed to be a war, not every scenario can be tackled 100% perfectly, even by Steele.

It's a testament to the man that he managed to take a crushing defeat and deliver a catastrophic defeat. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on July 12, 2011, 01:31:24 am
And in addition, we haven't seen those experimental units yet. Byrne and the Fedayeen probably kept the Vajras well hidden until the time comes to unleash the big surprise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on July 12, 2011, 01:35:45 am
Quote
Still being beam jammed?

That is something that would be taken into account. A TAG from a Pegasus can break through the jamming and it isn't clear how many AWACS craft the UEF really has that are fully operational (one of which was destroyed).

Quote
They were just able to deploy Serkr and the Hood.

Because the 2nd and 3rd fleets launched a major diversionary assault, during which the Eris was nearly destroyed and their supporting artillery units were seriously hurt.

Quote
I don't see an unescorted Titan being really useful.

Yet one of them single handedly wiped the floor with the Wargods. :P When deployed properly don't underestimate the amount of damage that thing is capable of inflicting.

Quote
This is supposed to be a war, not every scenario can be tackled 100% perfectly, even by Steele.

It's a testament to the man that he managed to take a crushing defeat and deliver a catastrophic defeat. :P

True.



Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 12, 2011, 02:51:05 am
Quote
They were just able to deploy Serkr and the Hood.
Because the 2nd and 3rd fleets launched a major diversionary assault, during which the Eris was nearly destroyed and their supporting artillery units were seriously hurt.
When Byrne said that he was clearly angry at the risk taken. I wouldn't take his wording too literally here.

Quote
I don't see an unescorted Titan being really useful.
Yet one of them single handedly wiped the floor with the Wargods. :P When deployed properly don't underestimate the amount of damage that thing is capable of inflicting.
Not entirely true. The Imperieuse didn't just wipe the floor with the wargods all on it's own. The Karunas were already damaged from a very intense and long battle and there were the Carthage and a strike corvette there as well, both of which pack quite some firepower as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Destiny on July 12, 2011, 03:15:49 am
The AWACS with the Hood was scrambling Calder's torpedo locks in that mission...etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 12, 2011, 05:01:22 am
Who said, that the Deimos and Aeolus were truly captured by the Feds?
There ist still this SOC Diomedes, which could escort a repair team in and take them back?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 12, 2011, 06:11:35 am
I think everyone has forgot that the Imperieuse is a battlecarrier. With a full complement of fighters and bombers. Which are more than enough to wipe the floor with a Big T that had left its fighter complement behind.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 07:03:51 am
In hindsight of course that the GTVA could have done X and Y and Zed. What matters is what you can do within ten minutes, specially when you are being defeated by completely surprising technology like the beam jammer. Of course that if you had previous knowledge of this weapon you could have prepared against it and armed your ships with "tag missiles". But you didn't because you were caught with your pants down.

To have a sudden cruiser just come out of nothing with TAG missiles ready within just 5 minutes of the Serkr team being surprised would be a completely irrealistic plot. No army is able to think and execute a reaction that fast.

Quote
Yet one of them single handedly wiped the floor with the Wargods.

This is utterly ridiculous. The imperieuse won that war because the wargods were already pressed with the Carthage and its escort, and by the surprise effect. You cannot possibly believe that a single Titan is able to destroy four Karunas. Because it isn't.

Further, a Solaris and two Karunas will kick the Imperieuse's ass in less than one minute. (Not that my own experiment was a good one, since I didn't get the ****ing Titan to open beam fire, but still it was an eye opener)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dragon on July 12, 2011, 07:06:09 am
Titan has impressive firepower, but only on the front. Flank it and it's down to a medium beam and pulse turrets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 07:06:21 am
I think everyone has forgot that the Imperieuse is a battlecarrier. With a full complement of fighters and bombers. Which are more than enough to wipe the floor with a Big T that had left its fighter complement behind.

I really lost count on how many bombers I killed on that mission. If you stay close to your big ships, you'll be overwhelmed but surviving. And the Imperieuse still falls down. So I don't think so.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 12, 2011, 07:09:36 am
Quote
Yet one of them single handedly wiped the floor with the Wargods.
This is utterly ridiculous. The imperieuse won that war because the wargods were already pressed with the Carthage and its escort, and by the surprise effect. You cannot possibly believe that a single Titan is able to destroy four Karunas. Because it isn't.
The problem is:-the Imperieuse was escorted by a Chimera Corvette.
The Imperieuse destroyed the Altan Orde and the Katana. The Kyoto and the Insuperable were destroyed by both the Imperieuse and that corvette.
Then it destroyed the Yangtze. Three Karunas and two Sanctus cruisers (with help from the Imperieuse's squadrons, that one Chimera and the plethora of bombers arriving) are really good for a titan scratchboard.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 07:13:04 am
Conceded, still you don't have the Solaris in DE. It just isn't a comparable setting. In the first engagement, the Titan would run into serious trouble and risk. Not in DE, where they pwned the wargods without a scratch. Comparing those risks, I'd say that Steele is so much a better strategist than many of you ;).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 12, 2011, 07:38:39 am
Without a risk, because the mission was specifically rebuild to make it that way.
In earlier (pre-release) versions of the missions the wargods sometimes succeded in disarming the forward beams of the imperieus, resulting in all GTVA vessels on scene being destroyed!
So much for the Imperieus singlehandedly taking on four Karunas "without any risk"...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 12, 2011, 08:45:33 am
Conceded, still you don't have the Solaris in DE. It just isn't a comparable setting. In the first engagement, the Titan would run into serious trouble and risk. Not in DE, where they pwned the wargods without a scratch. Comparing those risks, I'd say that Steele is so much a better strategist than many of you ;).

The Toutatis was only barely able to break off from its own engagement in time to attack the Hood. Send in the Imperieuse about ten minutes before that, and the Toutatis wouldn't have been able to engage.

In hindsight of course that the GTVA could have done X and Y and Zed. What matters is what you can do within ten minutes, specially when you are being defeated by completely surprising technology like the beam jammer. Of course that if you had previous knowledge of this weapon you could have prepared against it and armed your ships with "tag missiles". But you didn't because you were caught with your pants down.

It's entirely possible to lose the AWACS in that mission.

Exactly. Everybody seems to be forgetting there's still a whole UEF bomber corp out there. If the Imp had warped in, with minimal fighter support too, it would have been swiftly defanged and smashed by gunships/durgas. 2nd/3rd fleets were both occupied, but I'm sure even conservative 1st fleet wouldn't have missed such a golden opportunity.

The Imperieuse would have been able to bring to bear the same strikecraft support as she did at Saturn, where I don't recall her being ganked by First Fleet bombers. Jump in the Medea alongside the Imperieuse instead of sending her on a suicide run on her own, and you have your corvette support, too.

I think everyone has forgot that the Imperieuse is a battlecarrier. With a full complement of fighters and bombers.

Including a few with BALLS OF STEELE ai. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 12, 2011, 08:54:31 am
Nope, IIRC there is no BoS AI in DE. Only Little Devils.

The only point where BoS is ever used is in Blade Itself, for the ETS and turret fire rate.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 12, 2011, 09:00:27 am
Nope, IIRC there is no BoS AI in DE. Only Little Devils.

The only point where BoS is ever used is in Blade Itself, for the ETS and turret fire rate.
BOS was used in the intro too. Ever wondered why the firing rate of the Atreus's pulse turrets was so insanely high?

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 12, 2011, 09:25:28 am
That looks freakin AWESOME!

I'd like to voice Atreaus Tactical for the TEV campaign if anyone from that is reading here :arrr:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 09:31:42 am
The Toutatis was only barely able to break off from its own engagement in time to attack the Hood. Send in the Imperieuse about ten minutes before that, and the Toutatis wouldn't have been able to engage.

This doesn't solve the plot problem of "I have five minutes to think, command and execute all this reaction that people are talking about in the most perfect manner possible, as if there aren't any other engagements occurring elsewhere"

Quote
It's entirely possible to lose the AWACS in that mission.

It's entirely possible to die in that mission. Your point?

Quote
The Imperieuse would have been able to bring to bear the same strikecraft support as she did at Saturn, where I don't recall her being ganked by First Fleet bombers. Jump in the Medea alongside the Imperieuse instead of sending her on a suicide run on her own, and you have your corvette support, too.

That would have been suicidal. Pretty much dead. Like D-E-A-D.

If the Imperieuse had jumped alongside the Medea, the Toutatis would have commited itself a little bit earlier for da prize. It would make an exit vector in the Imp's backside / broadside, and bye bye Imperieuse.

That's the worst idea I've read on what admiral Steele could do in that situation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 12, 2011, 10:01:21 am
This doesn't solve the plot problem of "I have five minutes to think, command and execute all this reaction that people are talking about in the most perfect manner possible, as if there aren't any other engagements occurring elsewhere"

If there's enough time to break off the Hood and Serkr team from whatever they're doing, there's enough time to break the Imperieuse off from doing absolutely nothing. Also, unless Steele is a complete moron he probably realized that there was some chance the Agincourt was headed for a jump gate, even if he had no way of knowing which one. He had a couple weeks to put together a plan for that contingency.

Quote
Quote
It's entirely possible to lose the AWACS in that mission.

It's entirely possible to die in that mission. Your point?

Losing the AWACS is not a mission-ending scenario. Dying is a mission-ending scenario. There is no canonical information as to whether or not the AWACS survived. There is canonical information as to whether or not Laporte survived. Debating what might have been a good idea if the AWACS had been destroyed is therefore pertinent. Debating what might have been a good idea if Laporte had died is therefore impertinent.

Quote
Quote
The Imperieuse would have been able to bring to bear the same strikecraft support as she did at Saturn, where I don't recall her being ganked by First Fleet bombers. Jump in the Medea alongside the Imperieuse instead of sending her on a suicide run on her own, and you have your corvette support, too.

That would have been suicidal. Pretty much dead. Like D-E-A-D.

If the Imperieuse had jumped alongside the Medea, the Toutatis would have commited itself a little bit earlier for da prize. It would make an exit vector in the Imp's backside / broadside, and bye bye Imperieuse.

That's the worst idea I've read on what admiral Steele could do in that situation.

Ignoring again the fact that the Toutatis was engaged elsewhere and was not able to extricate herself until several minutes after the Medea was destroyed. The Toutatis was also engaged during Delenda Est, and did not break off to flank and destroy the Imperieuse when she showed up then.

And ignoring again the fact that the Imperieuse had a full air wing and the Toutatis was empty.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 10:20:52 am
This doesn't solve the plot problem of "I have five minutes to think, command and execute all this reaction that people are talking about in the most perfect manner possible, as if there aren't any other engagements occurring elsewhere"

If there's enough time to break off the Hood and Serkr team from whatever they're doing, there's enough time to break the Imperieuse off from doing absolutely nothing. Also, unless Steele is a complete moron he probably realized that there was some chance the Agincourt was headed for a jump gate, even if he had no way of knowing which one. He had a couple weeks to put together a plan for that contingency.

But he did. He placed the Serkr and the Hood in front of the jump gate waiting for the Agincourt.

This ought to be enough. No one anticipated the BeamzJam. Only after that point should you count the seconds for a comeback being thought and executed. And within those seconds you should also count the seconds of confusion among the Serkr Team of what the hell happened + communication with Steele + "WTF happened u Serkr idiots?" + "We're still trying to understand" + "It appears we are being jammed sir", "WTF how is that F possible?!?" + "No clue sir" + "Ok, LET ME THINK FOR A SECOND"

Quote
Losing the AWACS is not a mission-ending scenario. Dying is a mission-ending scenario. There is no canonical information as to whether or not the AWACS survived. There is canonical information as to whether or not Laporte survived. Debating what might have been a good idea if the AWACS had been destroyed is therefore pertinent. Debating what might have been a good idea if Laporte had died is therefore impertinent.

When the AWACS get the chance of being destroyed, isn't the wargods team all over the Hood anyway? Or can that event occur before the Serkr team goes away? If so, we could be seing a slight plot hole. But it's almost in the realm of nitpicking very specific chain of events.

Quote
Ignoring again the fact that the Toutatis was engaged elsewhere and was not able to extricate herself until several minutes after the Medea was destroyed.

If the situation was that bad, they could come sooner. It was a matter of priorities, and the admiral figured that a small support would cover the Medea situation and he could come a little later to the field. The possibility of flanking the Imperieuse is, I think, high on his priorities.

Quote
The Toutatis was also engaged during Delenda Est, and did not break off to flank and destroy the Imperieuse when she showed up then.

The Toutatis was already calculating its attack on the Hood but not Saturn. But that's a good point.

Quote
And ignoring again the fact that the Imperieuse had a full air wing and the Toutatis was empty.

I'm really not that much impressed by this, since waves of wings still take their time to launch, and in less than a minute of back and forth, the Toutatis really kicks the Imperieuse to the ground. The waves may do a good damage to the T, even bring it down, but at the cost of a good destroyer. If the T jumps into the Imp's broadside, it's game over for the Imp.

Now I don't remember the fiction, so I don't know what the excuse for the T not showing up in DE was. Probably the excuse was the same one as the Imp's in Aristea: too risky. Yes, they would probably kill the Imp, but they would take a lot of damage as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 12, 2011, 10:29:43 am
Is it explicitly stated that that's the first time beam jamming was used? I don't recall ever reading one way or another, and I had assumed the UEF had been doing it for a while. The closest I can find is that the Oculus was developed in the weeks preceding the fall of Jupiter. If there's a quote to the effect that Aristeia was the first time one had been deployed in a beam-jamming capacity, then you're absolutely right.

I think the AWACS can be destroyed at almost any point in the mission, after which the Hood problem is invariably resolved by giving suicidal attack-subsystem orders to invulnerable wingmen. :p

And sorry for the pissy use of bold text in my previous post. The internet is serious business. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 10:37:12 am
Oh I just assumed from the conversations. They are pretty much crossing their fingers "will it work?", and then it does.

I think you hit a good spot in your "If the Imperieuse was good enough to get three Karunas, it was good enough to get two and an Agincourt" before, specially if paired with the "If the T was good enough to protect the two Karunas in Aristea, it was good enough to protect the three ones in Saturn".

I have no reply to that that doesn't feel slightly cheated. Perhaps a good question to the BP team?

And you've been completely nice Lord, nothing to apologize for. When you read yourself calling other people names that's when you have to start worrying yourself :).

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 12, 2011, 10:38:46 am
We don't know yet how fierce the attack on the T is during Delande Est. My guess is that the attack was fierce enough to threaten the Toutatis is nearly destroyed in the attack, or at least badly threatened.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 10:46:26 am
Yeah that's the kind of answer I was trying to avoid...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 12, 2011, 10:58:05 am
The description of preview screenshots on ModDB state that the Big T was engaged with Serkr during the events of DE.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 10:59:24 am
There we go.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 12, 2011, 11:03:22 am
I thought the concern over the jamming at the beginning of Aristeia was whether Calder would come through and get the AWACS into position in time, not whether the jamming would work once it did get there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 12, 2011, 11:31:16 am
Yet one of them single handedly wiped the floor with the Wargods. :P When deployed properly don't underestimate the amount of damage that thing is capable of inflicting.

Not single handed, it had fighter escort and a corvette. Try debeaming it and you'll see how important those assets are.

And ignoring again the fact that the Imperieuse had a full air wing and the Toutatis was empty.

No it didn't, the Imperiuse air wing was pushed back during the Blitz. It was "restocking".

I won't dismiss the fact that having the Imp on hand in Aristeia would've probably tipped the balance in favour for Tevs, but it's clear that Steele had her on standby for a very specific scenario, one which she was deployed for and completed brilliantly. Steele keeps to his cards; deploying the Imperiuse is the very last thing he was thinking of when the Hood and Serkr were on call. Calder and Netreba attacked Jupiter for a reason: they wanted Steele occupied with defence exactly so that he wouldn't have assets available or be able to react in time to the Agincourt escaping. I doubt even he would have anticipated Serkr to be beaten. Expected maybe, in the realm of unlikely possiblities, but not actually defeated.

Steele's reaction was to send the Medea and this is a far more sound course than warping in an under-strength Titan. Unfortunately the Wargods simply wanted it more and it was their turn to win, simple as. Tevs rarely lose, tactically it's way more gray than it looks, seeing as how Calder's artillery was thrashed and presumably many UEF fighters lost.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 12, 2011, 12:00:31 pm
Yes, Aristeia marks the first time beam jamming is used. Yes, the fact that it was present was one factor for Steele not to deploy the Imperieuse there and then (Him wanting to see where the Agincourt would end up was another, as was his belief that Hood and Serkr would be enough to stop the Wargods' escape). If he had deployed the Imperieuse, not only would the success not be assured (due to beam jamming), he would also have played his ace card without the assurance of that being enough. Had one of the UEF destroyers jumped in, he would have risked not only losing Imperieuse or Hood, but Serkr as well. Not a good deal for him.

(And yes, Steele does know that this was a risk, yes, he probably caught flak over this decision, and yes, he would make the same decision even if he knew what happened after)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 12:06:47 pm
yeah, that's what I mostly thought. Now how I get rid of this smug smile that invaded me?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 12, 2011, 12:18:41 pm
By not being such a prick.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 12:21:48 pm
Ah thanks that did it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 12, 2011, 12:23:14 pm
Wait......wait............





There it.............



No....

It's gone.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 12, 2011, 12:24:27 pm
Or punching yourself in the face :D

One little thing I discovered: Why are the Thalassa (Blade Itself) and the Ania armed with STerPulses? Mission balance tweaking?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 12, 2011, 01:00:10 pm
Nope, some Deimoses and other Capella-era ships are getting retroffited with pulse weaponry. Expect to see more of those in the future.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 12, 2011, 02:22:16 pm
AWESUM!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 12, 2011, 03:39:15 pm
Well, that clears that up. Next stupid question!

Might the UEF start mounting the oculus's beam-jamming and other EWAR equipment on its warships? It seems to me that sticking mission critical equipment responsible for thousands of lives on a fairly fragile support vessel is a very bad long-term strategy.

And its not like the warships don't have room for it:

(http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/755/sizecomparisonc.jpg)

Even if they had to sacrifice a few weapons or a little speed for the upgrades, I'd think that protecting the entire fleet from direct-fire beams would be more than worth it. We know that the Sanctus is a hybrid warship/freighter, so simply replacing part of its cargo bay with EWAR equipment would massively enhance EWAR survivability without compromising the cruiser's combat effectiveness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 12, 2011, 03:42:16 pm
I think it has been said before that those ships do have some electronic warfare stuff on them. The Eris (2FM flagship) apparently has lots.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 03:44:43 pm
I think it has been said before that those ships do have some electronic warfare stuff on them. The Eris (2FM flagship) apparently has lots.

If you play the mission where you get to play the cruiser first hand, you do have beam jammers in your ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on July 12, 2011, 03:51:01 pm
That was a frigate, actually, but yes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 12, 2011, 03:53:01 pm
I assumed the Katana's capabilities in TBI were non-canon. It jams slashing beams, occurs before (what I now know is) the canonical first deployment of beam jamming technology, and makes Delenda Est not make a whole lot of sense.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 12, 2011, 03:55:07 pm
Yes, I also thought about that. And you're right, it doesn't seem canon. But quite fun otherwise!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 12, 2011, 04:23:56 pm
Certainly. Although I was quite disappointed when my cunning plan to prevent the diomedes from jumping out by parking in front of it failed. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 12, 2011, 05:08:44 pm
I suspect that that's something that will work or not work as the plot allows. The Carthage exploited some type of weakness in beam jamming for instance. It's likely that beam and / or missile jamming will occur a lot in the next WiH
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dragon on July 12, 2011, 05:20:52 pm
The Blade Itself is, as far as I know, "canon" for BP, but this advanced EW suite isn't installed on all ships, because it's costly and somewhat fragile. AWACS ships don't have heavy weaponary to eat reactor power and armor plating to block emiters, so they're better suited for EW than larger warships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on July 12, 2011, 11:44:38 pm
The only justification why they aren't so widespread (the Ranvir apparently don't have it) is that they were still prototypes when Steele raided Artemis Station, so they haven't got the chance to equip it on every single ship. Though it is still pretty strange that the Katana have one in The Blade Itself (though it is almost useless there anyway since all the enemies have slash beams), but seemingly don't in Delenda Est. We haven't seen the Eris in action, though it probably loaded with these.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 13, 2011, 12:06:50 am
I thought the Katana's jamming worked on the slashing beams in TBI, though. I at least don't recall getting beamed while I had jamming active.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 13, 2011, 01:55:18 am
For that matter there's a downward spiral in effect; the more ships the UEF loses, the less time it can devote to retrofitting the equipment on its existing ships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 13, 2011, 02:19:54 am
For that matter there's a downward spiral in effect; the more ships the UEF loses, the less time it can devote to retrofitting the equipment on its existing ships.
Unfortunately, they can't afford any losses in the current situation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on July 13, 2011, 03:55:51 am
Quite so.

Unfortunately, it doesn't stop them from losing ships even so.

Speaking unofficially, it's quite possible the advanced equipment tested on the frigates was transplanted onto a destroyer (it being a more robust frame and more likely to be able to shape engagements).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 13, 2011, 08:15:41 am
Or that it was damaged in the constant battles during the retreat from jupiter and they lacked the time, the ressources or both to repair it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 13, 2011, 08:43:07 am
So we agree that it is almost a plot hole
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 13, 2011, 08:45:32 am
If you're clever you can complete the Blade Itself on hard without using any of the abilities, aside from hull repair, which we know is canon. In other words, believe what you want to believe. It isn't a plot hole, just a wee break from continuity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 13, 2011, 08:52:54 am
right. So because you can finish blade itself without using the tech you're supposed to be only using for the first time in Aristea, then "nothing's wrong". Is this BP's version of "dont ask dont tell"?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on July 13, 2011, 08:55:44 am
It isn't a huge problem, it's a nitpick, plus it's a bonus mission. You're playing a Karuna, it's understandable you'll have certain abilities to level the playing field or else it just won't be any fun. I'd rather have fun than sacrifice some abilities for the sake of unnecessary canon. It isn't game breaking and it really doesn't affect the story in any meaningful way. If the Ranvir and Akula had those abilities they'd have still got toasted imho.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 13, 2011, 12:03:15 pm
I'm being nitpicky in the sense of being rigorous. I really don't care if BP has this little plot hole gem, it in no way diminishes its "grandeur" to me at all. Even the best games in the industry are filled with plot holes and retcons (well just look at the original FS at that!!), it's just an impossible thing to evade.

But in discussing these things I think we bring ourselves to learn more about BP than otherwise. And to call a spade a spade is not a crime that I think is so bad.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 13, 2011, 11:41:12 pm
We've already established if you were rigorous you'd have done some rigorous preparation, not rigorous nitpicking. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 14, 2011, 12:08:42 am
We've already established if you were rigorous you'd have done some rigorous preparation, not rigorous nitpicking. :P

You're nitpicking. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 14, 2011, 12:18:23 am
You're nitpicking. :p

I never claimed otherwise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 14, 2011, 12:41:42 am
Yo dawg we heard you like nitpicking so we made the BP forum.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on July 14, 2011, 02:02:39 am
Which is why he made an excellent beta tester.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 14, 2011, 09:08:27 am
We've already established if you were rigorous you'd have done some rigorous preparation, not rigorous nitpicking. :P

That's fair.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 14, 2011, 06:58:42 pm
So... you had beta testers going over every detail of the missions.... do you plan on getting "story beta testers" who nitpick about every possible plothole and inconsistancy? Because I think there would be a few people around here who could do that, looking at what we're doing to the already released stuff :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 14, 2011, 07:38:16 pm
I can't think of one I found so far that was actually a plot hole or inconsistency upon examination, so I'm guessing they did.

Well, other than the Katana jamming GTVA slashing beams before the first time the UEF ever jammed GTVA beams, but that's a case of "this mission needs to be cool". :p

And I daresay they succeeded.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 15, 2011, 03:12:46 am
I wasn't really looking into the past, but (half) jokingly asking about future releases. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 19, 2011, 11:24:41 am
New news post up on moddb. Check out some of the tunes Belisarius has made for us:

http://www.moddb.com/mods/blue-planet-war-in-heaven/news/music-is-in-the-air
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 19, 2011, 12:24:24 pm
Pretty sick, allready falling in love with them^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on July 19, 2011, 04:32:37 pm
How can I download those?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 20, 2011, 04:10:02 pm
In the Custos thread, Darius showed a screeny of the converted Nexus Cruiser.....


What role will it fill? It looks.quite transporty / civvie liner, possibly fuel tankerish?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on July 20, 2011, 04:14:58 pm
Killed quote, incapable of thinking before posting.
Cruiser, not Destroyer like the first ship on the first level. Right.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on July 20, 2011, 08:24:18 pm
The "Avalanche" cruiser? It was really a joke render to show that it's there, I haven't considered putting it in the mod yet. Did you want it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 21, 2011, 12:45:54 am
:3


Pwease.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on July 22, 2011, 07:46:01 pm
How can I download those?

You don't. Ask Belisarius first.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 24, 2011, 09:26:33 pm
How can I download those?

You don't. Ask Belisarius first.

 :blah:... :) ...:lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 24, 2011, 09:33:14 pm
How can I download those?

You don't. Ask Belisarius first.

 :blah:... :) ...:lol:

Your posturing insults us all, QuakeIV. Belisarius will not give up his music.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 25, 2011, 12:09:34 am
How can I download those?

You don't. Ask Belisarius first.

 :blah:... :) ...:lol:

Your posturing insults us all, QuakeIV. Belisarius will not give up his music.

Thems fightin' words, boy.

EDIT: On a side note, is it legal to record that music?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 25, 2011, 04:28:10 am
You could just wait till the release and then extract them from the release...
People are so lacking in patience these days :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 25, 2011, 05:24:04 am
Q4, that depends on the fact of whether those files are under copyright law or not. I don't know the law in this subject, so I assume that they are. Of course, Belisarius could be a nice guy and just say "sure, copy at will", but until then it's up to your own ethics.

If you pirate his songs without his consent, I think that tells you more about yourself than anyone else.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on July 25, 2011, 05:57:06 am
After recently finishing WiH I thought I'd jump in to pass on my congrats to the BP team  - AoA & WiH are simply amazing pieces of work, I can't wait to see WiH part 2!

And now, a question :) In the mission with the Hood & the Serkr team (you're escorting the Agincourt), I've been wondering why the GTVA didn't have a plan to  destroy the intra-system gate in case everything went to hell (as did happen).  Steele seems to be the type to always have a contingency (OK - so the Diomedes could have been the contingency). Anyway the wiki seems to indicate that destroying the gates isn't out of the question from a feasibility point of view. Or from a willpower point of view for that matter given that other gates have been destroyed in the war.

So, destroy the gate and the Agincourt plus escort is going to have to limp through normal space to the next gate, which should give the GTVA plenty of time to try and recapture it again, perhaps by camping outside the next closest gate or plotting a likely course between here & there and filling the area with Auroras...

Am I missing something here?

Edit: freakin typos!  :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 25, 2011, 06:02:30 am
That's assuming that the UEF would be unable to simply get enough support out there to rebuild the Agincourt's jump drive, if given more time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 25, 2011, 06:12:41 am
But the point is interesting. Why wouldn't the GTVA just diss the jump gates, or at least sabotage them, creating problems to UEF operations, and no problem at all to GTVA operations?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 25, 2011, 06:18:44 am
Because destroying the gates isn't all that straightforward. And because all the important bits of the UEF fleet do not need the gates. And because destroying gates when you do not have to is a bad idea in terms of post-war occupation economy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 25, 2011, 06:23:47 am
Well the ease of sabotaging it is completely dependent to the fiction, so I can see where you can say something the lines of "this is  unsabotageable beause technobabble".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 25, 2011, 06:25:20 am
It is not unsabotageable. But doing so is about as safe as sabotaging running fusion reactor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on July 25, 2011, 06:26:46 am
Just mine the damn things.  Can't make it more impassable than that without sabotaging or destroying them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 25, 2011, 06:41:06 am
Well, as far as I can tell, these gates only got strategically interesting when they wanted to bring the Agincourt to other parts' of the sytem.

I won't even ask on how they brought the Agincourt to that gate at 40ms-1, because a huge plot hole is there waiting to explode, and I don't want to be a party-crasher. Oh wait, I just did.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 25, 2011, 06:43:01 am
And now you're just trolling.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 25, 2011, 07:00:17 am
Yeah, after second thoughts, most probably. They take several days to get there, so it is believable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on July 25, 2011, 07:43:38 am
That's assuming that the UEF would be unable to simply get enough support out there to rebuild the Agincourt's jump drive, if given more time.

I guess that comes down to how long it takes to repair a subspace drive (and how much GTVA drives have diverged from UEF ones over the past 50 years  :)) Still, if it were easy to repair I figured that they would have shipped the parts in straight away rather than crawl on sublight for 6 days.  Unless of course the GTVA could track the inbound repair ship and relocate the Agincourt that way...

Because destroying the gates isn't all that straightforward. And because all the important bits of the UEF fleet do not need the gates. And because destroying gates when you do not have to is a bad idea in terms of post-war occupation economy.

Yep, the gates don't matter to the military as all their ships have subspace drives, it's only the civilian commerce that really use the gates and that comes back to the point that the GTVA want to capture the Sol infrastructure intact.  However, I'd have thought the disruption caused by loss of a single gate would be worth being able to hang on to the Agincourt.

Anyway, seeing that destroying the gates isn't straight forward, I'd like to know under what circumstances other the gates were destroyed during the war. I mean, was it accidental destruction, or deliberate? 

Actually, I haven't played TBI yet, but I recall seeing people talk about the GTVA punting a meson bomb through a gate as an area denial weapon - how close was that to the gate when it went off?  If it was close and the gate withstood the blast then it's a pretty resilient gate!

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 25, 2011, 07:45:28 am
The meson warhead didn't move an inch after being dropped through the gate. The gate did not survive the explosion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on July 25, 2011, 10:54:34 am
Q4, that depends on the fact of whether those files are under copyright law or not. I don't know the law in this subject, so I assume that they are. Of course, Belisarius could be a nice guy and just say "sure, copy at will", but until then it's up to your own ethics.

If you pirate his songs without his consent, I think that tells you more about yourself than anyone else.
The tracks have already been downloaded to my computer for free, because they must have been in order for me to listen to them. It is one of my pet peeves that no convenient way was provided to turn that data into a nice OGG file. Of course, if Belisarius doesn't want me to listen to them offline then I'll respect that, but that seems a little far fetched.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 25, 2011, 10:59:42 am
That's the problem of streaming vs downloading, where there is a major "philosophical" discussion all around the nets, since physically you are absolutely right, some kind of copy must have been sent to you in order for you to listen to the music, so "what is the difference", really?

Now, understand that my point is almost academic. I don't know Belisarius that well so I really have no idea where his feelings reside on this issue. Many artists have deep feelings about their works being "used" or downloaded in the airwaves without their consent, and I get that, since I'm a creator myself. However, this is a very open-sourcy thread, and so it is also likely that Belisarius won't have any problem with it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 25, 2011, 01:34:46 pm
It would make sense to armor the UEF jump gates, however It seems unlikely that the GTVA would give jump gates higher grade armor than their warships.  Since their warships tend to be raped to hell and back by beam weapons fairly regularly and quite rapidly, so I would assume the gates are quite destroyable by GTVA weaponry.

There are a few ways around that though:

The GTVA might need that gate for future plans of theirs.  Maybe the gate was of more strategic value than the Agincourt.

You could also simply argue that the gates can have all of the armor they want because they never get moved.  Which is rather contrived, though not impossible I suppose.



Q4, that depends on the fact of whether those files are under copyright law or not. I don't know the law in this subject, so I assume that they are. Of course, Belisarius could be a nice guy and just say "sure, copy at will", but until then it's up to your own ethics.

If you pirate his songs without his consent, I think that tells you more about yourself than anyone else.
I will now abbreviate my response::hopping:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 25, 2011, 01:59:21 pm
It would make sense to armor the UEF jump gates, however It seems unlikely that the GTVA would give jump gates higher grade armor than their warships.  Since their warships tend to be raped to hell and back by beam weapons fairly regularly and quite rapidly, so I would assume the gates are quite destroyable by GTVA weaponry.

There are a few ways around that though:

The GTVA might need that gate for future plans of theirs.  Maybe the gate was of more strategic value than the Agincourt.
The GTVA has nearly no need for the jump gates. Every ship, from the smallest fighter to the biggest Destroyer is equipped with jump drives. The only reason the jump gates exist and were not destroyed is due to future economic plans (if the GTVA wins, they will high likely make use of the freighters and other ships used by the UEF).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 25, 2011, 02:03:09 pm
(http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/techfs/ships/mesonbomb.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 25, 2011, 02:12:46 pm
(http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/techfs/ships/mesonbomb.jpg)

Yes, we are all in agreement that the GTVA are more than capable of destroying jump gates should they so desire. However, they do not.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on July 25, 2011, 02:28:38 pm
The jumpgates are of strategic and military value for both sides, because they allow them to conceal their fleet's movement. As teammembers explained before, subspace sensors can only detect that a gate was activated. They can't detect how many ships, what kind of ships or even if any ships at all were sent through, were a jump powered by the ships drives gives the people behind the sensors a good idea of what caused the flare on their instruments.
Then there is also the matter of jumpdrive charging. If you came in through a gate, your drive is fully charged to make a jump out of there if things get too sticky. If you use up the charge for jumping in, then for better or worse you're stuck there till your drives recharge.

As for the situation in the mission: They did make the gate pretty impassable. They put a destroyer and Serkr in front of it. Under normal circumstance that wouldn't have been just sufficient, but actually overkill for the foces they expected. What they didn't know was, that the UEF is able to jam their beams and thus the hunter became prey and had to run or be destroyed.
Also Laporte was only able to call in support from the Toutatis, because she was using a GTVA transponder and thus wasn't affected by the jamming.

That is why I like this mission a lot. It shows that the GTVA and Steele are just Humans too. They can make mistakes and can be caught by surprise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 25, 2011, 02:36:44 pm
That is why I like this mission a lot. It shows that the GTVA and Steele are just Humans too. They can make mistakes and can be caught by surprise.
Especially the captain of the Marcus Glaive who plead the Bloodletters to withdraw while they got creamed with Slammers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 25, 2011, 02:55:34 pm
Yes, we are all in agreement that the GTVA are more than capable of destroying jump gates should they so desire. However, they do not.

I was referring to the usefulness of said gates.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vertigo 7 on July 25, 2011, 04:30:41 pm
if the GTVA destroyed the jump gate system and achieved a total military victory, they would be screwed in the sense that the established economic system in Sol relies on the jump gate network. It makes more economical sense to try to keep it intact to use existing supply and commerce routes if they were to win. Attacking the jump gate network would just be a "F-U" move against the UEF and not serve the GTVA's interests other than that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 25, 2011, 05:05:38 pm
Attacking the jump gate network would just be a "F-U" move against the UEF and not serve the GTVA's interests other than that.

Not that that would necessarily stop them. They've already blown up plenty of the infrastructure that they started this war explicitly to capture.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 25, 2011, 08:31:15 pm
Not that that would necessarily stop them. They've already blown up plenty of the infrastructure that they started this war explicitly to capture.

I don't believe you quite grasp the concept of infrastructure as the GTVA wants it, i.e. manufacturing capacity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 25, 2011, 09:15:13 pm
"- can anyone confirm that the Saab shipyards are gone? Does someone have a visual? There must be surviving fighters -"

Shipyard = a place where ships are built and repaired. The GTVA's reasons for blowing up the shipyards no doubt had more to do with the later than the former, but they have destroyed manufacturing capacity.

I'm not saying Steele's an idiot. To the contrary, I'm saying he's not dumb enough to risk losing the war by letting the UEF keep all its infrastructure in the hopes that he can capture it later.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on July 25, 2011, 11:37:35 pm
We've already established, or at least Battuta has claimed, that any Arcadia-class installation in Sol is capable of constructing Karunas. The destruction of a single shipyard is of relatively little consequence to the ability to build new ships.

Though considering the general fragility of logistic systems it may make all the difference in the ability to repair them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 26, 2011, 06:11:03 am
Keep in mind that Darkest Hour was a major shift in the Tev tactical doctrine, following the entry of the GTVA in Total War. Destroying so much infrastructure was indeed something Severanti has been trying to avoid for 18 months, but the GTVA are now at a point they just don't care anymore and want to end the war quickly and with minimal Tev losses.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 26, 2011, 06:18:52 am
We've already established, or at least Battuta has claimed, that any Arcadia-class installation in Sol is capable of constructing Karunas. The destruction of a single shipyard is of relatively little consequence to the ability to build new ships.
Has someone from the BP-team ever stated how many Arcadia-class stations are in the hands of the UEF?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on July 26, 2011, 06:25:59 am
Has someone from the BP-team ever stated how many Arcadia-class stations are in the hands of the UEF?
Zero, because the Tevs have already captured them all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on July 26, 2011, 06:32:49 am
Has someone from the BP-team ever stated how many Arcadia-class stations are in the hands of the UEF?
Zero, because the Tevs have already captured them all.
I meant before the war.
And they can't capture all stations when they've already destroyed stations like Simak.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 26, 2011, 06:51:54 am
We've already established, or at least Battuta has claimed, that any Arcadia-class installation in Sol is capable of constructing Karunas. The destruction of a single shipyard is of relatively little consequence to the ability to build new ships.
Has someone from the BP-team ever stated how many Arcadia-class stations are in the hands of the UEF?

No.

Has someone from the BP-team ever stated how many Arcadia-class stations are in the hands of the UEF?
Zero, because the Tevs have already captured them all.

Cite source.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 26, 2011, 07:28:06 am
Has someone from the BP-team ever stated how many Arcadia-class stations are in the hands of the UEF?
Zero, because the Tevs have already captured them all.
Wait what.

They might have captured all the Arcadias in Jovian space that Third fleet didn't manage to destroy (and I'd say this number is 0, given that logistics-wise, an Arcadia = one destroyer battle group supplied, and it is said somewhere IIRC that they only got one destroyer worth of logistics by capturing Artemis during the Jovian defeat), but we don't know how many Arcadias there is in orbit of Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 26, 2011, 09:40:59 am
Keep in mind that Darkest Hour was a major shift in the Tev tactical doctrine, following the entry of the GTVA in Total War. Destroying so much infrastructure was indeed something Severanti has been trying to avoid for 18 months, but the GTVA are now at a point they just don't care anymore and want to end the war quickly and with minimal Tev losses.

I know. However, my post was in response to a discussion about an event that took place after Steele assumed command and GTVA doctrine shifted, so the destruction of Saab Shipyards is relevant to the GTVA's way of strategic thinking at the time.

The reason, imo, that the GTVA didn't blow up the gate was because they had every reason to believe they could stop the Wargods without doing so. By the time they were proven wrong, the Toutatis was attacking the Hood and it was too late to destroy the gate. It wasn't because they chose to sacrifice the Agincourt so that the gate would still be intact when they conquered the system.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 26, 2011, 09:46:32 am
I agree. The Agincourt was worth far more to the Tev than a random subspace gate. However important they may be for the civilian trade post-invasion, those gates are far from the military value of a logistics ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 26, 2011, 11:33:05 am
:3


Pwease.


:nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on July 26, 2011, 11:38:25 am
:3


Pwease.


:nervous:

you most make a cruiser
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on July 26, 2011, 07:18:11 pm
Is it just me, or do the briefing tech anis (like when you get introduced to the Kentauri) kind of stuttery? I mean, I'm fine with it if that's how they're recorded. I'm more worried about something being configured wrong on my system.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 26, 2011, 08:24:39 pm
If you mean microsoft mary sucks, thats normal.

Though there is probably a problem if there are little chunks of silence mixed into the audio.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on July 26, 2011, 09:42:15 pm
Dekker: had no internet for the past two weeks. I haven't forgotten, dont' worry!

The stutter is in the graphical tech ani rather than the audio. We're aware of it, though I thought the Kent entry was the only one that really stuttered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on July 26, 2011, 10:29:27 pm
I only noticed the Kent entry, so that's all I meant.

Thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: nomad0305 on August 01, 2011, 08:08:56 pm
I read on TvTropes.com the entry for BP & over there it mentioned that there was a separate mission why Captain Gennady chose to stand his ground & help the other Wargods retreat in the last mission .. Could someone pls point me where can i get my hands on that mission?? I would very much like to get it !
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on August 01, 2011, 08:23:50 pm
The mission you are after is "The Blade Itself".  It's in a separate campaign (1 mission long) so just select it from the campaign screen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 02, 2011, 01:17:26 pm
Actually, The Blade Itself is not related to Delenda Est in any immediate way.  TBI takes place before the beginning of the main campaign by between a few hours and a few days.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 02, 2011, 01:26:34 pm
Actually, The Blade Itself is not related to Delenda Est in any immediate way.  TBI takes place before the beginning of the main campaign by between a few hours and a few days.

The relationship, from the TBI success debriefing:

Spoiler:
They say that every time you sacrifice someone, you build up a debt to Fate - as if the people you killed for your own purposes, no matter how noble, are waiting to even the scales. Fate is patient, but eventually, she always comes to collect.

I'm not a religious man, though god knows Ellen has worked on me. But here's my prayer, Fate - such as it is.

Next time I have to make a call like this one, make sure my life is on the other side of the ledger. I never wanted to be a man who doesn't pay his debts.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on August 02, 2011, 01:36:55 pm
Whoa, totally missed that connection before you pointed it out.

Spoiler:
I like how he doesn't give a damn about whether his crew wants to live or die, lol
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 02, 2011, 01:43:02 pm
He's the Captain. In the absence of him doing something insanely risky, they do have neither cause nor right to remove him. And I am very certain that, while Gennady may feel guilt over what happened there, he wasn't going to go all suicidal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 02, 2011, 01:54:19 pm
In Delanda Est, the Altan Orde and Katana had jumped in more recently than the Indus and Yangtze, so it would have probably taken longer for their drives to recharge once the Imperieuse crashed the party. Since the Altan Orde and Katana were already well inside beam range, they were probably going to be destroyed even if they attempted to flee. The right decision in this case was pretty clear-cut.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mafu on August 03, 2011, 12:44:41 am
Please, I beg of you, for the next part please slide the story enough to the side to give me a chance to actually play the game.  Missions seem to fall into two camps:

Camp 1: The mission grabs the difficulty bat and hammers you into the ground with it (i especially loved defending a station from wave, after wave, after wave, oh my god SSM's, after wave, only to lose at the very end when a destroyer jumped in and got its stupid self blown up forcing a restart on an already long mission).

Camp 2:  The mission has only token enemies that pose no challenge and only serve as a vehicle for ten to fifteen minute banter between pilots.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on August 03, 2011, 03:50:01 am
Checkpoints generally help with your "camp 1" missions, although I can't remember off the top of my head if "The Darkest Hour" (which I think you were referring to) uses them or not.

I've had my fair share of moments like you describe, getting rammed by the Hood jumping out, or getting hit by the Medeas slash beams, both in Ariesta (which wins my prize for hardest mission to beat so far!)   :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mafu on August 03, 2011, 04:17:00 am
Ok, maybe I need to take back my critique... is there some way to turn checkpoints on that I'm not realizing?  If there is I'll take back at least some of what I'm saying as my biggest grip is definitively Camp 1 ( Camp 2 just feels like a waste of time for the sake of exposition which is annoying but not joystick hurling inducing).

I hear you on Ariesta, if that's the one I'm thinking of I ended up just skipping it to get on with the story after about the 20th attempt ended with me just getting slapped from the sky by an errant beam and told myself I would come back and do it later.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 03, 2011, 04:18:36 am
If there's a mission you just can't seem to get past, you can play the rest of the campaign from the tech room by going there and pressing ctrl + shift + s (I'm pretty sure that's the command).  That will unlock every mission, and you can just play them in order from there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on August 03, 2011, 04:34:58 am
Ok, maybe I need to take back my critique... is there some way to turn checkpoints on that I'm not realizing?  If there is I'll take back at least some of what I'm saying as my biggest grip is definitively Camp 1 ( Camp 2 just feels like a waste of time for the sake of exposition which is annoying but not joystick hurling inducing).

You don't need to turn on checkpoints, you just need to select them in the 1st 10 seconds of a mission after you restart.  Each checkpoint is triggered by reaching a certain point in the mission.  e.g. in the 1st mission, after all the dialogue you might see a message flash up saying "Checkpoint saved".  If you die after this point, when you restart the mission, you can restart from the checkpoint by using the reinforcements menu.  C-4-1 I think... (but don't quote me).  Anyway, you should see a message in those 1st 10 seconds of a restarted mission saying "select a checkpoint from the reinforcements menu"

Some missions have multiple checkpoints, e.g. Delenda Est (final mission)

Please note that the checkpoint doesn't save the entire state of the mission.  e.g. your 2ndary loadout status & killcount (plus probably other) variables are not saved. (I think this is a limitation of the current version of the game engine).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 03, 2011, 04:36:59 am
And most long dialogues can be skiped by pulling the trigger.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mafu on August 03, 2011, 04:42:55 am
You don't need to turn on checkpoints, you just need to select them in the 1st 10 seconds of a mission after you restart.  Each checkpoint is triggered by reaching a certain point in the mission.  e.g. in the 1st mission, after all the dialogue you might see a message flash up saying "Checkpoint saved".  If you die after this point, when you restart the mission, you can restart from the checkpoint by using the reinforcements menu.  C-4-1 I think... (but don't quote me).  Anyway, you should see a message in those 1st 10 seconds of a restarted mission saying "select a checkpoint from the reinforcements menu"

Huh, I never even realized this was a feature in the game, probably would have saved me some gray hairs.  Certainly never saw any message like the one you describe, but the first 10 seconds of any given mission (especially the difficult ones where they would come in handy) are usually devoted to me quickly shooting out individual wingman orders, selecting proper missile banks/firing modes, getting to 100% thrust (seriously why do missions never start you at full thrust?  Why would you ever want to fly at 1/3 in a combat zone?), etc. so I've probably just been missing them.

This is a feature that really should have been pointed out at the very start of the campaign, possibly through the same feature that allows the story screens before some command briefings.  Just a simple "hey, there are checkpoints in this game and this is how you use them" would save some serious levels of frustration, I can't be the only person to have never realized that this feature existed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mafu on August 03, 2011, 04:44:21 am
And most long dialogues can be skiped by pulling the trigger.

This I did know, mainly just by impatiently pressing buttons waiting for the mission to start after I died once.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 03, 2011, 04:45:19 am
We DID do our best to point things out (although we dropped the ball on the very first mission, admittedly).  If you have unlocked a checkpoint, there will be a message at the beginning of the mission telling you about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mafu on August 03, 2011, 04:54:47 am
We DID do our best to point things out (although we dropped the ball on the very first mission, admittedly).  If you have unlocked a checkpoint, there will be a message at the beginning of the mission telling you about it.

lol, well I don't know what to tell you.  Played the entire campaign (minus that one mission I had to skip), never knew the feature existed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 03, 2011, 08:33:07 am
I have to wonder if the subtitle sexp isn't working on your computer for some reason, as this is the one used both to tell you that checkpoints exist and that you can press the trigger to skip certain dialog.

As for me, I never had a problem with the talky missions. WiH's primary purpose is to tell a good story, and a fair amount of dialog is necessary for that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 03, 2011, 02:16:24 pm
Mafu gave you a very good reason why even story interrested people may want to skip dialogue:
Quote
This I did know, mainly just by impatiently pressing buttons waiting for the mission to start after I died once.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on August 03, 2011, 02:26:50 pm
Mafu gave you a very good reason why even story interrested people may want to skip dialogue:
Quote
This I did know, mainly just by impatiently pressing buttons waiting for the mission to start after I died once.
Dun dun dun!
Well, I never skipped dialogues and cutscenes. They make a mission even more awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 03, 2011, 02:58:32 pm
Mafu gave you a very good reason why even story interrested people may want to skip dialogue:
Quote
This I did know, mainly just by impatiently pressing buttons waiting for the mission to start after I died once.

um it's already possible to skip dialog

I was just expressing the opinion that there's no need to reduce the amount of dialog in missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mafu on August 03, 2011, 04:40:55 pm
um it's already possible to skip dialog

I was just expressing the opinion that there's no need to reduce the amount of dialog in missions.

I'll probably agree with you once the voice acting is done, this campaign really needs it.  I'm sure I'm missing a lot of cool lines because I just can't spare the moment to read them. 

I'm fine with there being a lot of dialog, but there are to many instances where its all that is happening to the determent of actually playing the game for my tastes.  I'm not saying I didn't like the campaign (I did and will replay it in a few weeks probably to see if I enjoy it more by using checkpoints) but only that I think they missed the sweet zone between game play and story development.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 03, 2011, 04:43:12 pm
um it's already possible to skip dialog

I was just expressing the opinion that there's no need to reduce the amount of dialog in missions.

I'll probably agree with you once the voice acting is done, this campaign really needs it.  I'm sure I'm missing a lot of cool lines because I just can't spare the moment to read them.

Yeah, it will certainly be a big improvement.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on August 03, 2011, 05:48:05 pm
In case you didn't already know, you can press F4 to read past dialog. Not a true solution, but it can save you if there's something critical that you missed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mafu on August 03, 2011, 07:28:03 pm
In case you didn't already know, you can press F4 to read past dialog. Not a true solution, but it can save you if there's something critical that you missed.

Yeah, but do you really want to read through every mission to see if you missed something when you know you going to have to go and read a long winded debriefing, recommendation/personal log, fictional piece, four frame command briefing/personal log/personal messages, 7 frame mission briefing, and then in all likely hood read about 3 minutes of pilots talking to each other?  This is what I mean when I say the story needs to kindly get out of the way and let me play the game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 03, 2011, 07:45:53 pm
Haters gotta hate. The story is what makes BP great. Gameplay is just a nice bonus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 03, 2011, 07:53:37 pm
In case you didn't already know, you can press F4 to read past dialog. Not a true solution, but it can save you if there's something critical that you missed.

Yeah, but do you really want to read through every mission to see if you missed something when you know you going to have to go and read a long winded debriefing, recommendation/personal log, fictional piece, four frame command briefing/personal log/personal messages, 7 frame mission briefing, and then in all likely hood read about 3 minutes of pilots talking to each other?  This is what I mean when I say the story needs to kindly get out of the way and let me play the game.
Play SGWP2 and have fun reading command / mission briefings three times longer than anything in BP. Without the jaw-dropping gameplay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 03, 2011, 08:46:49 pm
In case you didn't already know, you can press F4 to read past dialog. Not a true solution, but it can save you if there's something critical that you missed.

Yeah, but do you really want to read through every mission to see if you missed something when you know you going to have to go and read a long winded debriefing, recommendation/personal log, fictional piece, four frame command briefing/personal log/personal messages, 7 frame mission briefing, and then in all likely hood read about 3 minutes of pilots talking to each other?  This is what I mean when I say the story needs to kindly get out of the way and let me play the game.
Play SGWP2 and have fun reading command / mission briefings three times longer than anything in BP. Without the jaw-dropping gameplay.

I think there are better ways to say BP is a good campaign than comparing it favorably to SGWP2. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on August 03, 2011, 09:15:12 pm
Actually it's not favorably comparing it. Show me another campaign with just as much briefing and mission text, and get back to me.
Either way Blue Planet emphasizes story. Take the story out and you're missing a large component to what makes it great. Its gameplay is outstanding but that's not all BP is about.
I'm just pointing out that if you think the stuff in BP is nothing but tl;dr, we have stuff that's truly tl;dr.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 04, 2011, 03:40:56 am
Everyone's going to have a different idea of what amount of dialog works for them. BP is not commercial, they don't have any 'target market' whose attention span has to be taken into account for commercial viability, so as long as some people in the community thinks it's fine, they can do it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 04, 2011, 04:26:56 am
Haters gotta hate. The story is what makes BP great. Gameplay is just a nice bonus.
I think your going a bit overboard here. He just pointed out aspects of BP2 that he dislikes a bit, not bashing it as bad. I can see no "hating" going on here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on August 04, 2011, 04:45:21 am
my only problem with it is the ridiculous font size of the game. When I get home I am mostly tired. When I play the game is after I put the kids in bed. The last thing I want is to **** even more my own tired eyes.

That's why I almost never read BP's story. It pains the eyes. And I refuse to play a game that pains me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on August 04, 2011, 04:59:38 am
Haters gotta hate. The story is what makes BP great. Gameplay is just a nice bonus.
Wait, what? No. That's utterly the wrong way around. Storyline is a nice bonus, but definitely secondary to gameplay when you're making a game. Writing a novel, sure, or one of those terrible mid-nineties "interactive movies", you're right. Games, definitely not.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on August 04, 2011, 06:04:24 am
Wait, what? No. That's utterly the wrong way around. Storyline is a nice bonus, but definitely secondary to gameplay when you're making a game. Writing a novel, sure, or one of those terrible mid-nineties "interactive movies", you're right. Games, definitely not.
Gotta agree here. I value gameplay when playing a game a lot more than story. Great gameplay but a fairly bad story I can deal with, bad gameplay and a good story I cannot.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 04, 2011, 06:12:17 am
Haters gotta hate, too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on August 04, 2011, 06:26:20 am
come on Matth, it's not about hate, it's about what different people take from a game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 04, 2011, 06:35:14 am
A game that is poor to play but has a superb story gets put down and uninstalled because the story is not revealed. A game that has terrible story but is easy/fun to play gets completed because it is easy/fun.

You can sell a game without a story but that's fun to play. Tetris comes to mind. You cannot sell a game without gameplay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hades on August 04, 2011, 06:35:34 am
come on Matth, it's not about hate, it's about what different people take from a game.
He says that because he can't come up with anything else, really.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on August 04, 2011, 06:41:14 am
NGTM has it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on August 04, 2011, 08:46:13 am
I do think story IS the main drive behind BP's success as Mat, but also it is definitely not the main reason for an FS-like game to succeed at all... gameplay innovation does bring an impressive amount of pluses to the equation.

Anyways, personally I think the thing that made BP so great for me was the story, simply because I wasn't expecting it to be that good, gameplay on the other side... I'm always looking forward a refined product when playing an FS mission/campaign, Hard Light community requires it actually because we're a bunch of crazy perfectionists after all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 04, 2011, 09:12:13 am
Haters gotta hate, too.
Oh common.... grow up. Not everyone who has a different opinion than you is automatically a hater.

As for me: If there is a story present, I think there needs to be balance between both story and gameplay. Horrible gameplay will make me dislike the game just as much as horrible storytelling.
Of course games without story can be fun too, but having no story at all or having a bad story are quite different things.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 04, 2011, 09:34:18 am
You can sell a game without a story but that's fun to play. Tetris comes to mind. You cannot sell a game without gameplay.

It's not just Tetris. Several 8-bit games fell into this category too. Arkanoid, Pac-Man, the list goes on. Games used to sell because they were so easy to pick up and play right off the bat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 04, 2011, 10:52:09 am
In WIH part 2, I want puppies. Kittens are irritating. Mew mew mew mew..... Little gits.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 04, 2011, 11:43:39 am
I don't think puppies will still exist in the 24th centuries. The UEF can't not have exterminated their ugly race from Sol.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 04, 2011, 11:56:09 am
You can sell a game without a story but that's fun to play. Tetris comes to mind. You cannot sell a game without gameplay.

It's not just Tetris. Several 8-bit games fell into this category too. Arkanoid, Pac-Man, the list goes on. Games used to sell because they were so easy to pick up and play right off the bat.
No need to go that far back. Just look at a lot of multiplayer shooters, like the Battlefield 1942, Quake 3, Team Fortress or Counterstrike and their succesors. Or games that do have a background story, but the story isn't really part of the game, like Sins of a Solar Empire, League of Legends or Left for Dead.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on August 04, 2011, 12:00:57 pm
I like Angry Birds.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 04, 2011, 12:26:11 pm
I don't think puppies will still exist in the 24th centuries. The UEF can't not have exterminated their ugly race from Sol.
If they did, then that's likely the reason the GTVA declared war.


(edit- ****ed up keyboard moving words around)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 04, 2011, 04:27:20 pm
In WIH part 2, I want puppies. Kittens are irritating. Mew mew mew mew..... Little gits.

CAT ATTACK MEW MEW PEW PEW.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 05, 2011, 03:51:34 am
Nooooooooooo........

:beamz:


 :arrr:


Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 08, 2011, 02:56:35 am
rabid parrot is better
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Evangelist on August 09, 2011, 05:43:04 am
If you were anything like me, the engagement with the Imperieuse had all Karunas heavily damaged from the battle already.  The Carthage alone could probably have finished them off.

Having a Titan class destroyer jump in mid combat, most likely while jump drives were recharging was easy to do.  Not to mention that apparently the Titan had fighter killer elite squadrons out there as well?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 09, 2011, 09:07:00 am
Yep. The mission uses armor-class sexps to more or less ensure that all the karunas are heavily damaged by the time the **** hits the fan, and it uses the Little Devil AI class to make sure the player doesn't get close enough to the Imperieuse to realize that her beams are guardianed. That mission design has Steele-like planning. There are even contingencies for the use of cheat codes....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on August 18, 2011, 08:04:49 pm
I don't have a POF viewer with me atm, so random question: how many tris/verts is the moon landscape?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on August 18, 2011, 08:08:14 pm
Not enough. It's quite bland if you ask me...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 18, 2011, 11:02:27 pm
I have to agree they don't need the Imperieuse there. They could just send a group of corvettes to finish the job considering most are heavily damaged.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 18, 2011, 11:04:58 pm
Would that have been nearly as cool?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on August 19, 2011, 01:01:12 am
No. Such an action wouldn't have the psychological effect like the arrival of the Imperieuse, a destroyer which was supposed to replenish it's fighter squadrons in Delta Serpentis.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 19, 2011, 04:56:39 am
Well, sending in the Imperieuse had quite a few effects on the operation:

1) Tells Wardogs that they are screwed beyond the universe;
2) Intelligence failure;
3) "Enjoy" the fireworks;
4) Explode.

You don't get any of these four if you send corvettes in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 19, 2011, 02:15:26 pm
Gods not dogs.
Wargods.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 19, 2011, 02:20:53 pm
All Buntu forces are dogs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snail on August 20, 2011, 01:58:51 am
Serkr team = wardogs
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 20, 2011, 05:49:11 pm
No wonder people always confuse that name with the protagonists'.

trollface.jpg
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 22, 2011, 02:21:26 am
All Buntu forces are dogs.


Quote of the week......

Maybe we should have a REAL quote of the week accross the board. Submit in Grognards adminno-types?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 22, 2011, 01:43:30 pm
No. Such an action wouldn't have the psychological effect like the arrival of the Imperieuse, a destroyer which was supposed to replenish it's fighter squadrons in Delta Serpentis.

On the other hand, if you can do it with the corvettes and thereby conceal the presence of the Imperieuse for an assault on a more important target, that might be worthwhile.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 22, 2011, 02:01:58 pm
I don't know what's much more important than four Karunas, especially if the rest of the Tev fleet is tied up in combat thanks to attacks by Netreba and Calder.  Four Karunas is a large chunk of the main offensive forces of the UEF, and it would take a lot of corvettes to bring down that many frigates and keep the losses low.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 22, 2011, 02:15:32 pm
A Solaris would be a more important target. It's not like if they have many of those, or any way to replace em.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 22, 2011, 02:20:57 pm
Solaris destroyers are also heavily-escorted, and Calder and Netreba would be stupid if they didn't charge their drives and plot escape courses as soon as they entered the battlefield.  A successful kill of a Solaris in relatively open space is a lot harder than four Karunas trapped in Neptune's gravity well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 22, 2011, 02:23:14 pm
I don't know what's much more important than four Karunas, especially if the rest of the Tev fleet is tied up in combat thanks to attacks by Netreba and Calder.  Four Karunas is a large chunk of the main offensive forces of the UEF, and it would take a lot of corvettes to bring down that many frigates and keep the losses low.

More of the UEF logistics system, further accelerating their collapse. The ships don't matter if you can't fuel them, feed their crews, or keep them loaded with ammo. Indeed, keep the UEF military as intact as possible while stripping away its logistical supports will make things worse for them.

The only way the use of the Imperieuse in this fashion makes sense is that Steele was using the engagement as a proving ground for tactics or equipment.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on August 22, 2011, 02:33:11 pm
How would you kill UEF logistics, by wiping out their infrastructure and supply train?  The whole point of the war is to capture as much of it as possible intact.  Steele's blitz on Earth wiped out a lot of it, and I think he wants to preserve as much as possible for when the UEF falls.  Steele could even be under orders from the Security Council to minimize further losses to Sol's infrastructure and shipping.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on August 22, 2011, 07:27:12 pm
The Imperiuse brought down the Wardogs because the Atreus battle-group was guarding Atremis station, Serkr team was distracting the Big T, the Carthage was absorbing damage, and the Hood's battle group was probably defending something or another, getting patched up, perhaps running a few random offensive operations to keep the buntu on their toes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on August 22, 2011, 07:37:39 pm
What I want to know is.... how bout some new hype of WiH2? hmm?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 22, 2011, 09:37:21 pm
The only way the use of the Imperieuse in this fashion makes sense is that Steele was using the engagement as a proving ground for tactics or equipment.

Or if there wasn't a corvette team available.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on August 22, 2011, 10:56:01 pm
Or if there wasn't a corvette team available.

The Imperiuse brought down the Wardogs because the Atreus battle-group was guarding Atremis station, Serkr team was distracting the Big T, the Carthage was absorbing damage, and the Hood's battle group was probably defending something or another, getting patched up, perhaps running a few random offensive operations to keep the buntu on their toes.

This point a thousand times. Me thinks that was a busy day for Steele
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on August 23, 2011, 01:26:56 am
Actually the Hydra is there, following the Impereuse, which you can get a clearer view in the ending cutscenes. You can see the other 2 of the Serkr team fighting the Eris and others in the screenshots.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 23, 2011, 10:00:36 am
Yes, but sending in the Hydra alone would probably not have had the desired effect. We know from the aforementioned screenshots that the Marcus Glaive and Pilum were engaged elsewhere, and we have no particular reason to believe that other corvettes were available to accompany the Hydra in the Imperieuse's place.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 23, 2011, 10:06:40 am
Also, sending the Hydra alone would simply not have worked. 4 Karunas and 2 Sanctuses, even battle damaged, can easily eliminate a single Chimera from the picture. The whole Serkr team would have got the job done, but they can't be everywhere at once, right ? This is subspace chess, you can't necessarily send all the pieces you want where you want.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on August 23, 2011, 06:01:24 pm
Not to mention Steele had a "queen" available that the UEF knew nothing about.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on August 24, 2011, 05:00:33 am
He had a queen? Really?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 24, 2011, 05:09:56 am
Dude, lrn2chess.

The Imperieuse is the queen in this scenario.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 24, 2011, 05:23:05 am
Admiral Shima  = My queen <3
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on August 28, 2011, 07:54:33 am
My little sister was drinking Ubuntu cola a second ago - as a right-minded Tev, I bombed that thing.. from orbit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Master_of_the_blade on August 28, 2011, 10:15:47 am
Firstly, i just LOVE the mod. What you have made is a legit Freespace 3. Its one of those rare mods that also emotionally engaging.
I didn't quite understand the names and names of the goods in the cargoboxes in the red nebula when she meets Ken in the testing of mental stability.
I would like to know if you are releasing voice acting for the mod.
Also, is it possible for you to e-mail me the music tracks used in the mod, especially the one played during the log entries of Laporte. You you want to, my email address is deeparthDOT1995ATymail.com(I've written my email address this way for security reasons.)
Dumb question: Laporte and Simms are both women, aren't they?
Thank you in advance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on August 28, 2011, 10:18:52 am
Dumb question: Laporte and Simms are both women, aren't they?
Thank you in advance.
They are.

And there is a voice acting "effort".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on August 28, 2011, 03:54:08 pm
You already have the music files. The easiest way to get them is by using vpview. It's very straightforward to use and allows you to open .vp files. There is a link for the program in my signature.

once you have it installed, go to freespace2/blueplanet2 and click on bp2-audio1
If you want the music from Age of Aquarious, go to freespace2/blueplanet and click on bp-audio1
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Master_of_the_blade on August 29, 2011, 09:22:07 am
You already have the music files. The easiest way to get them is by using vpview. It's very straightforward to use and allows you to open .vp files. There is a link for the program in my signature.

once you have it installed, go to freespace2/blueplanet2 and click on bp2-audio1
If you want the music from Age of Aquarious, go to freespace2/blueplanet and click on bp-audio1
Got it. Thanks a lot ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starwolf1991 on September 04, 2011, 11:33:04 pm
Per the screenshots in April, has the reduxed Narayana been fully-completed? If so, is it also being kept aside until WiH R2's release? Only curious, being a fan of the Narayana. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on September 05, 2011, 12:31:48 am
starwolf, the reduxed Narayana has been complete for months.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starwolf1991 on September 05, 2011, 12:35:14 am
Well, can forgive for being behind in mod news :/
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on September 05, 2011, 12:45:40 am
you want has cheeseburger i send you
or just ask them for it
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 05, 2011, 05:18:39 am
(http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/17/16897/Screen_024.jpg)

That pic is like, what, 9 month old. ModDB says 6th January.

(This old HWBP).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leuthesius on September 05, 2011, 11:24:53 pm
I have now played through BP and WIH on a computer that can ALMOST handle everything at full graphics. The renderings on those ships are ridiculous if my triple sli gt 470 sytem can't handle it. It doesnt cut down past 7fps in most regards, but sometimes it sure as hell tries. I'm sure if I surrender and knock it down to just high or mostly high instead of EVERYTHING ON AT ALL TIMES, then I would have no issues at all.

I have to say again, that this game is phenomenal. Utterly phenomenal.... I cannot wait until all of the voice acting is done, and BP3 is released to play.  The developers deserve a pat on the back for this. Wonderful story.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 06, 2011, 03:28:44 am
There is a difference between the memory your computer has the memory FS2 is allowed to use.
And the FPS counter doesn't go below a certain threshold, even when the actual FPS drop below 1. Just try out the massive battle single "mission" in the techroom ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: WormholeSurfer on September 06, 2011, 04:48:08 am
I really like the new frigate, but Steve-O's Narayana is IMHO the best looking ship ever released for FreeSpace, and I'm sad to see it go.  Will there be a way to use the old models in R2?

I have now played through BP and WIH on a computer that can ALMOST handle everything at full graphics. The renderings on those ships are ridiculous if my triple sli gt 470 sytem can't handle it.
Try disabling SLI and any power-saving feature, you shouldn't have any problems with that card. My old nvidia 7900GS (4-year-old midrange card) could run WiH above 30fps except some of the battle scenes in Aristeia and Delenda Est, and my 6870 never falls below 60 even with Fury's postprocessing mod.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on September 06, 2011, 09:14:14 am
Who said the Narayana was going away?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 06, 2011, 09:37:12 am
I really like the new frigate, but Steve-O's Narayana is IMHO the best looking ship ever released for FreeSpace, and I'm sad to see it go. 
Wat

The new Narayana is the same ship/design as the old one. It's just better looking and muuuuuuuuuuch more optimized. The Nara isn't going anywhere.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 06, 2011, 10:27:32 am
Indeed. While the new Narayana is less colorful than the old one, the fact that it doesn't eat framerates for breakfast means that there will be no officially supported patch to use the old model.

Same goes for the Karuna.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 06, 2011, 12:00:34 pm
Don't forget that the last screenshot of the Nara was made in the BP mod for Homeworld 2. HW2 has quite different lighting and handles normal maps differently, as far as I gathered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on September 06, 2011, 12:38:46 pm
Not to mention shadows.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 06, 2011, 12:49:32 pm
Don't forget that the last screenshot of the Nara was made in the BP mod for Homeworld 2. HW2 has quite different lighting and handles normal maps differently, as far as I gathered.
Yup. Not to mention that this, for the purpose of the thread, was a 9 month old pic. Bad ambient lighting and no normals.

This is what it currently looks like in HWBP
(http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/17/16897/ss00145.jpg)

And what it looks like in FS (this is the 10-12 months old version that I don't know how I managed to acquire and which pof isn't suitable for ingame usage. Not sharing, don't ask). Might not reflect the current state of the ship, but I don't think it has been much altered visually since then.
(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1538/nara.png)

While the new Narayana is less colorful than the old one
Wat.

Old nara is a dark tileraped mess. How is it more colorful.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 06, 2011, 12:57:46 pm
Sorry, the last time I saw the old one was literally months ago :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on September 06, 2011, 01:03:15 pm
The textures have been improved on the Narayana since I last saw it in that WIP thread. They are now much more rich with detail. It looks very nice actually. I probably will end up liking it the more I see it in game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on September 06, 2011, 04:34:02 pm
And what it looks like in FS (this is the 10-12 months old version that I don't know how I managed to acquire and which pof isn't suitable for ingame usage. Not sharing, don't ask). Might not reflect the current state of the ship, but I don't think it has been much altered visually since then.

Wat, how is it not suitable for ingame usage.
I have like 10 (new) missions that work using that 10-12 months old version (or something slightly newer) in an independent modpack that never used the old one.

Then again I am kinda pr0 at debugging pofs at this point so I may have inadvertently fixed it in my sleep like the ****ing boss I am.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 06, 2011, 04:37:47 pm
That's probably it. The pof has different subsystem names, and broken subobject positions in LODs. Nothing that can't be fixed, but I've never been arsed to. It was suitable for conversion to HW2 and I never asked more of it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: WormholeSurfer on September 07, 2011, 09:50:53 am
That in-game pic does look nicer than the one a couple pages back, but I'm still partial to the old model. Anyway I'm clearly outvoted so I'll see if I can hack the vp's on my own to use the old one once R2 is released, as I'm lucky enough not to have the framerate issue that's apparently plaguing y'all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on September 07, 2011, 10:25:19 am
Doesn't the intial R1 Narayana have bad smoothing?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 07, 2011, 10:31:16 am
Yes. A trait it had in common with a lot of Steve-O ships, given that he uses TrueSpace.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Timerlane on September 07, 2011, 12:16:54 pm
Wait, have the optimized WiH ships been formally packaged up and released?

I originally got as far as Aristeia, and after about a dozen attempts, finally had enough of the FPSsanity-draining Karunas turning it into what felt like a luck-based mission, and decided to wait for the fixed-up ships before I tried to go any further.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 07, 2011, 12:27:00 pm
No, not all of them. Some of them have been passed out to selected people, and I think I posted a dump in FSModding at some point.

However, given that the new Karuna is finally completed, there will be a new WiH release soon, we just need to do a runthrough of the campaign and see if everything's working right, as well as wait for the SCP to start the RC process for 3.6.14 (Unfortunately, yes, the WiH rerelease WILL require 3.6.14, and will be incompatible with 3.6.12).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 07, 2011, 12:48:54 pm
(Unfortunately, yes, the WiH rerelease WILL require 3.6.14, and will be incompatible with 3.6.12).
How is it unfortunate that a new release will not be compatible with an old, outdated build ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 07, 2011, 01:11:41 pm
Because I would rather release with a stable build as a requirement, not one that is still in development.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 07, 2011, 01:15:53 pm
Well, you said 3.6.14, not RC. I supposed it was implying stable. My mistake if that isn't the case.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 07, 2011, 01:19:46 pm
Well, it's like this. We're still waiting for the sound code to be tested some more before we start releasing release candidates. Once we are at that stage, I feel comfortable releasing the wiH update, but not before.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on September 12, 2011, 12:47:50 pm
This just occurred to me, but if it does not affect singleplayer at all to add an eyepiece to the new optimised ships, such as the Narayana, it would help out bp multi down the road.

This will allow certain capships to be made playable without inserting another .pof file in the bp multi svn.

I believe this is already being done, but just double checking. If it adversely affects the single player experience in any way... don't worry about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on September 12, 2011, 07:53:24 pm
The New Narayana is really cool; I found it on the Ship release section under the cruisers and corvettes section. I wonder how many cruisers and corvettes can it take down? Hmmmm. ^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 13, 2011, 04:57:19 am
That depends on what kind of cruiser and corvette it is, from what angle they attack, how far they are away, what kind of weapons they carry and wether anything like special armor is applied in FRED.
And also wether they are just told to attack or given specific waypoints.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on September 13, 2011, 10:55:38 am
That is very true, Norbert, but couldn't this frigate fire several kilometers away? Farther then the GTVA's Big Blue Beam?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on September 13, 2011, 11:17:02 am
Yes, but range is only one component of combat effectiveness. Tev ships have a particular love for one-shotting everything out of existence, for instance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on September 13, 2011, 11:28:54 am
The GTVA of course wanted that 'One shot, one kill,' option, after all they went through two wars with the Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 13, 2011, 11:45:29 am
The new-gen Tevs ships are just an attempt at emulating the Shivan shock jump tactics at their finest. Chimerae and Bellerophons are specifically designed as Sathanas hunters. They are also designed to fend multiple waves of low-tech Shivans bombers, instead of the advanced gunships the UEF likes to field.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on September 13, 2011, 11:53:51 am
I am curious, what happened between the GTVA and the Vasudans? I hope Earth doesn't get bombarded in WIH.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on September 13, 2011, 02:55:20 pm
Relationships have suffered and no, Earth will not be bombarded, since they need it intact^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 13, 2011, 04:49:34 pm
You know what's an awesome weapon that doesn't get much attention in WiH? Hydra torpedoes.

Any chance we could get bomber-mounted Hydras someday? Could be a fun option to have alongside the Jackhammer/Sledgehammer/Warhammer, since we're gonna be seeing more of the Durga and hopefully Vajrahadra.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on September 13, 2011, 04:53:08 pm
The Hydra is used if they're running out of apocalypse.
But it is still nice.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 13, 2011, 04:56:34 pm
Hydra is a capitalship-grade swarm torpedo. There are about as much chances of seeing it mounted on a bomber as seeing an Apocalypse mounted on a bomber, aka none.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on September 13, 2011, 05:02:56 pm
They're used in different combat situations. The Hyrdra is proficient against better point defenses, and against close in enemies, but it lacks the raw punch of the apocalypse
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on September 13, 2011, 06:01:34 pm
I want to see a UED Solaris kick some serious GTVA butt! I can imagine that thing wiping out half a Tev fleet before going down!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 13, 2011, 06:09:56 pm
Well, you do have the Toutatis kicking some GTD Hood butt. But then again, it's an Hecate. A Sanctus could have done it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on September 13, 2011, 06:17:09 pm
quote author=MatthTheGeek link=topic=70746.msg1547503#msg1547503 date=1315955396]
Well, you do have the Toutatis kicking some GTD Hood butt. But then again, it's an Hecate. A Sanctus could have done it.
[/quote]

*laughs* Oh, man I bet that Captain crapped his pants when he saw 3km Destroyer coming out subspace.  He probably took the logistic ship that was heading out. ;p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on September 13, 2011, 06:24:33 pm
Uhm...the Solaris is considered to be the..."weakest" of her class...
On their own, no Solaris can take on a Fed fleet...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on September 13, 2011, 06:33:37 pm
Solaris destroyers are pretty freaking tough, yes; but they're not "take out half the Fed fleet" tough.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 13, 2011, 09:06:30 pm
Hydra is a capitalship-grade swarm torpedo. There are about as much chances of seeing it mounted on a bomber as seeing an Apocalypse mounted on a bomber, aka none.

Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently. I'm aware that it has both a shorter range and lower total damage than the Apocalypse, but point defenses in BP are frighteningly competent at either destroying warheads or shredding a bomber that gets close enough to have its warheads get through. It's a bad example because of the beefed up AI class, but just about the only time we see Durgas, engaging the Serkr corvettes, they get Swiss cheesed pretty quickly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 13, 2011, 09:14:32 pm
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 14, 2011, 12:14:00 am
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.

I was curious and did some (relatively) empirical testing.

Conditions:

Aggressor - UEB Durga
Range - Approx 2100m
Weapon - Warhammer swarm bomb
AI class: BP-Colonel

vs. Hyperion cruiser:
Sides are impenetrable. 50 salvos (400 bombs) out of 50 shot down by point defenses.
Top approach equally futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom approach futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Front approach surprisingly futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Back is the weak point, no appreciable coverage.

vs. Chimera corvette:
Side approach free of holes. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Ditto for the top. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom is well-covered. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Direct frontal approach is almost completely vulnerable.
Back approach has some coverage, but on a rough estimate approx 50%-80% of bombs get through.

vs. Bellerophon:
50/50 side approach bomb salvos shot down. Side approach on a Bellerophon is suicide thanks to placement of AAA beams.
50/50 top approach bomb salvos shot down.
50/50 bottom approach bomb salvos shot down.
As with the Chimera, front arc is almost completely uncovered and the aft coverage is woeful.

vs. Deimos, retrofitted with BP-era weaponry:
50/50 side salvos shot down.
Top coverage is easily overwhelmed.
50/50 bottom salvos shot down.
Again, the front is extremely vulnerable, although getting in the way of the business end of a slash beam makes the front approach a risky endeavor.
50/50 back salvos shot down; the Deimos is frightful from the back, and the ship most capable of protecting its engines from bombs.

Some interesting observations: the Hyperion cruiser is a nightmare to attack. The Chimera and Bellerophon seem to me to be flawed designs in combat with the UEF because the front beam emitters are almost completely defenseless. The Chimera probably has the worst overall point defense coverage. The Bellerophon is AAA beamrape except from the front and back. Besides having less than optimal anti-capital armament, the Deimos is just as competent in anti-strikecraft defense as its newer counterparts, especially when its missile launchers are armed with things that don't suck, although that's another discussion entirely.

After firing about 5000 total Warhammers, firing them at areas covered by point defenses still has dubious results, since the turrets will prioritize incoming warheads over any other targets. Depending on the ship and coverage area, some of these point defenses could likely handle 2-3x the volume of Warhammers that I was able to fire at them without breaking a sweat, and the low damage of individual Warhammer warheads makes the attrition rate an interesting data point. If I were a UEF analyst, I would deem it unacceptable. Yes, the test is flawed because the conditions absolutely don't reflect a battle environment, but when you start adding variables, it's hard to stop. If you're able to choose your angle of approach to fire at the weak points of the vessel you're attacking, you don't need Warhammers anyway. Warhammers are an attempt to compensate for less-than-ideal firing conditions.

I maintain my observation that BP-era point defenses are frighteningly competent.  :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on September 14, 2011, 12:20:25 am
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.

I was curious and did some (relatively) empirical testing.

Conditions:

Aggressor - UEB Durga
Range - Approx 2100m
Weapon - Warhammer swarm bomb
AI class: BP-Colonel

vs. Hyperion cruiser:
Sides are impenetrable. 50 salvos (400 bombs) out of 50 shot down by point defenses.
Top approach equally futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom approach futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Front approach surprisingly futile. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Back is the weak point, no appreciable coverage.

vs. Chimera corvette:
Side approach free of holes. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Ditto for the top. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Bottom is well-covered. 50/50 salvos shot down.
Direct frontal approach is almost completely vulnerable.
Back approach has some coverage, but on a rough estimate approx 50%-80% of bombs get through.

vs. Bellerophon:
50/50 side approach bomb salvos shot down. Side approach on a Bellerophon is suicide thanks to placement of AAA beams.
50/50 top approach bomb salvos shot down.
50/50 bottom approach bomb salvos shot down.
As with the Chimera, front arc is almost completely uncovered and the aft coverage is woeful.

vs. Deimos, retrofitted with BP-era weaponry:
50/50 side salvos shot down.
Top coverage is easily overwhelmed.
50/50 bottom salvos shot down.
Again, the front is extremely vulnerable, although getting in the way of the business end of a slash beam makes the front approach a risky endeavor.
50/50 back salvos shot down; the Deimos is frightful from the back, and the ship most capable of protecting its engines from bombs.

Some interesting observations: the Hyperion cruiser is a nightmare to attack. The Chimera and Bellerophon seem to me to be flawed designs in combat with the UEF because the front beam emitters are almost completely defenseless. The Chimera probably has the worst overall point defense coverage. The Bellerophon is AAA beamrape except from the front and back. Besides having less than optimal anti-capital armament, the Deimos is just as competent in anti-strikecraft defense as its newer counterparts, especially when its missile launchers are armed with things that don't suck, although that's another discussion entirely.

If I remember right, the Chimera and the Bellerophon were never intended to be used in a long-length combat situation, more for tactial strikes. They were also never used as lone capital ships. Serkr Team is a good example. While they screw other capital ships, they can set up a relatively good anti-fighter screen together due to their close formation. And it also looks cool.

Oh and while the GTVA discovered the UEF relatively early, they didn't seem to informed the TEI to make some design changes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 14, 2011, 01:49:16 am
Ah, rats. Oh well, it never hurts to dream that it could have been miniaturized sufficiently.
Yup. It's called Warhammer.

You're welcome.
snip

Yeah, that's why I didn't say the designs were flawed in general. They work exactly like they're supposed to. But I think they have some interesting weaknesses the UEF in particular could exploit to render them almost completely useless. There's a reason almost all of the frontal beams on the Chimeras/Bellerophons/Titans have to be guardianed in WiH missions, and that's because they're almost completely defenseless to assault fighter/bomber attack. One determined Uriel could probably disarm Serkr team's frontal beams with the Archer and Paveways without ever getting fired at by their turrets. Since the BP team isn't stupid, I imagine we're either going to be exploiting these weaknesses in WiH2, or be specifically prevented from doing so by more than guardian sexps.

But, my original want of a bomber-sized Hydra was exactly because of the competence of non-frontal point-defenses. While I think it's awesome and sensible that warships can defend themselves from incoming warheads, the arms race is constantly changing leaders. Again, if I were a UEF analyst, I would deem the Warhammer torpedo to be inadequate in its role of attempting to saturate point defenses so that bombers can engage from non-optimal vectors. Pulse turrets absolutely pick their teeth with warheads. Now that I think about it, most GTVA cruisers and corvettes in WiH get damaged by mass drivers or strikecraft; the torpedoes on the Karuna and Narayana are much better against destroyers that have much more surface area to cover. The time we see a frigate engaging a corvette at short range - she's using Hydras for a reason.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on September 14, 2011, 03:48:31 am
Part of the point of WiH is that you - a lone strike craft - have minimal chance of actually making an enormous difference. The Warhammer is intended to saturate point defenses when a wing or a squad of strike craft launch their attack.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 14, 2011, 04:13:49 am
Part of the point of WiH is that you - a lone strike craft - have minimal chance of actually making an enormous difference. The Warhammer is intended to saturate point defenses when a wing or a squad of strike craft launch their attack.

Yeah, that's kind of why I qualified when describing my experiment that I know it was sorely lacking in variables. But I also noticed that from certain directions, especially the sides, could handle three or four simultaneous double volleys of Warhammers with very few individual warheads leaking through. Based on the low damage of those individual warheads, it would take an unacceptable amount of ordinance to saturate the defenses. I do, however, realize that the qualification of the term "unacceptable" is completely subjective. It's not my project, so I hope I'm not coming off like I'm demanding anything. Just presenting some data and offering my own conclusions.

I think it's interesting that the Chimera and Bellerophon designs have so little protection for their main firepower, and, along with the Hyperion, almost no protection for their engines. In regards to point defenses, the Deimos is actually better. It at least has two turrets in the front covering its main slash weaponry, and two AAA beams in a very unfortunate spot if you happen to be making a run at its engines. I feel like it would be remiss of the BP team to ignore the fact that these are glaring weaknesses the UEF could stand to exploit, since they seem to place a great deal of value on making the Freespace universe a little more strategically and tactically sensible. Nostalgia goggles and rule of cool aside, the vanilla FS1 and FS2 campaigns are full of shortsighted design and boneheaded tactics and one of the reasons I love BP is the attention to detail.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 14, 2011, 08:17:16 am
If they used Warhammers exclusively perhaps. But when you start mixing the bomb types, you start to get results. As far as I know the AI doesn't differentiate between bomb-types, so you could have half the bomber wing fire warhammers to keep the point defense busy and follow up wtih the other half of the wing firing the real killers one or two seconds later.
Or alternatively use the time the point defense is busy with shooting Warhammers to get in close enough to take out a few turrets with scalpels and/or bombs.

Also why quote a post directly in front of your own at full length?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on September 14, 2011, 10:54:43 am
Sounds like your going to need another squad because if both sides of point defenses are busy or that will be the time for a cruiser to strike. But all in all, what do I know?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 14, 2011, 12:13:41 pm
I wonder if there's a way to make turrets prioritize highest damage warheads first? That would really make things interesting.

Oh well. I presented some data and it's a discussion point in a discussion thread, so hey, even if no one agrees with me, it's something. I'll have to do some more testing in FRED when I get the time, maybe see if Warhammers make it so that stronger warheads can get through. The biggest problem, I think, is that there's no way to organize coordinated bombing runs with AI wingmates. You can tell them what to attack, but not when, so it's hard to come to a conclusion one way or another. Sure, 4 Durgas launching a double salvo, that's 32 warheads in space and it'll be hard to get them all, but if anyone's really curious as to how good point defenses are, it takes about 2 minutes to FRED. Slap a Hyperion 4 klicks away, arm Warhammers, fire and watch it shred them effortlessly. The three large pulse turrets on the top of the Hyperion can reliably shoot them all down before they even get in range of the AAA beams or the Terran Turret 2s.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 14, 2011, 02:47:57 pm
Sounds like your going to need another squad because if both sides of point defenses are busy or that will be the time for a cruiser to strike. But all in all, what do I know?
Why both sides? They would of course all attack from the same side, otherwise the whole manouver wouldn't make any sense. Of course it would work even better with two squads, the more the marrier, but the question is if you can muster that many and are able to commit them all, without weakening another force or leaving the reserves dangerously low.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on November 19, 2011, 09:58:33 am
In "Collateral Damage," I just had the Treb strike jump right into the Ranvir's point defense. Nice going there, Argus. :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on November 21, 2011, 03:34:00 pm
I'm assuming you meant to say 'awesome' :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on November 21, 2011, 03:39:00 pm
The words used to have the same meaning. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on November 22, 2011, 07:32:50 am
Maybe he meant awe-full?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on November 22, 2011, 10:50:50 am
Definition 3 (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/awful) is still valid, but not used very often. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on November 25, 2011, 11:41:52 pm
Once again, the Indus fails to defeat the Valerie. Wonderful memories. :P

Throwing all fighters at the turrets worked, but seemed a little coldhearted.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on November 26, 2011, 09:08:38 pm
I never popped a review here, huh?

Just in case, even thouh I'm spoiling nothing.
Spoiler:
Might've been a year since I first played this, but it was amazing. Not only is it fun, but it had immersion. I was a skeptic at first because I found the Age of Aquarius (BP1) to be an above-average-but-not-the-best campaign simply because the whole magical, alternate universe and the alien war lacked the human element. There is no reason to feel sorry for the Shivan, and the deus-ex-machina Vishnans felt very cliche. War in Heaven, on the other hand, is truly a human conflict. Vishnans were retconned (or were they?) to be a species that can't be fully trusted, and everything that happened can be scientifically (in a sense) explained. Everything about it feels real, even the politics.

While some of the ships look good, the best part regarding the graphics are the effects. At the time, War in Heaven were using things never before seen. In fact, WiH helped influence the Mediavps, the community's graphical enhancement. And let's not forget about the planets. The details on the bitmaps are astounding. Mars, for example, is terraformed. Unlike other cheap scifis, Mars is "realistically" terraformed for the time, and it doesn't cover the whole planet. Also, Earth during one missions is lighted up on places that currently do not have lights but can be predicted to have lights in the future. These subtle differences make the world a much more believable place. Another bonus would be the recommended lighting. It helps establish a mood, and it works beautifully. The only thing bad about the graphics would be the unoptimized models, but we'll talk about that later.

The story (including the backstory) shines here, and I would say that it is the best in any game/mod I've played. It is very well-written, and the characters are easy to relate to. This is novel. There is no black-and-white. There's just gray, even the terrorists. Where a scifi book may have a glossary in the back of the book for special terms, the game's equivalent Techroom database entries is extremely detailed. You can tell that the BP team did their research by the way the characters speak in-game, which is a lot more than what most of Hollywood do for their movies. Oh, and anything can be an allusion to anything. Very deep.

The gameplay of the first part of War in Heaven is pretty much FreeSpace 2 with a lot of subtle-but-awesome tweaks. The AI is much smarter and does not cheat, for example. Most of the weapons and spacecrafts are useful unlike retail FS2, where you only need to reuse the same three ships to win. And the missions aren't at all repetitive. There's even a mission where you can command a frigate! This was revolutionary at the time. The only gripe that anyone might have is the long narrative, and dying before a checkpoint when that happens is very annoying. The lack of voiceovers doesn't help, either. One last problem was that the game bogged down at times because of the lack-of-optimized ships. However, these flaws may be remedied some time soon.

In summary, this is the best mod I've ever played, and I've fallen in love with the story. The graphics are above average, especially the special effects, and the gameplay is excellent. The only complaints that I have currently are the lack of voice acting and the lack of optimization, but those will eventually be fixed. All in all, a gem in the FreeSpace community along with Windmills and Vassago's Dirge.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicClucker on November 27, 2011, 03:35:00 pm
While Diaspora maybe the showstopper when it comes to pews and booms, BluePlanet has always been my favorite jawdropper for its plot and...

BALLS OF STEELE! (Delende est, still a hard romp to play and fun as heck).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on November 27, 2011, 03:47:08 pm
While Diaspora maybe the showstopper when it comes to pews and booms, BluePlanet has always been my favorite jawdropper for its plot and...

BALLS OF STEELE! (Delende est, still a hard romp to play and fun as heck).
BOS was only used in the intro cutscene so the Atreus can pew pew the UEF-fighters. The little devil AI was used during Delenda Est.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on November 27, 2011, 05:28:26 pm
Oh heh, I didn't know that. I only knew it was used in TBI and the Gef gauntlet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on November 28, 2011, 01:09:56 pm
I'm rather curious, as I was listening to some music from the game.

Some of the music files in the vps aren't even named, like 'quutamo.ogg'.  What song was that?  e: after actually searching the credits table I think I know enough about this one

There was also a series of interlocking audio clips with the prefix 'tw' such as twamb and twbattle1 and such.

Also, is Imperativa from a movie or something? I could swear I recognize it from somewhere.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on November 28, 2011, 01:48:52 pm
Maybe for a trailer. Immediate Music's Music (lol :wtf:) is often used for trailers and such.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on November 29, 2011, 12:40:15 am
There was also a series of interlocking audio clips with the prefix 'tw' such as twamb and twbattle1 and such.

The tw prefix denotes that they're part of the table-defined "Total War" soundtrack (used in Delenda Est). The naming has nothing to do with their original source(s), as far as I know.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on November 29, 2011, 06:57:19 pm
Hm, alright.  Anyone know where it came from?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on November 29, 2011, 07:20:50 pm
King Arthur film, track named Budget Meeting by Hans Zimmer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on December 01, 2011, 05:12:50 pm
Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on December 11, 2011, 01:57:56 pm
I just noticed, WiH takes place 18 months after the start of the UEF-GTVA war, and Age of Aquarius takes place 18 years after FreeSpace 2.  Probably just a coincidence, but I thought I might mention it. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on December 11, 2011, 03:36:35 pm
I'm more interested in the 18 months part; about 18 months after the NTF rebellion started...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on December 11, 2011, 03:38:35 pm
Oooh, nice catch
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Firstdragon34 on December 11, 2011, 10:05:07 pm
I wonder what that means. I know about the NTF, but who's the 'NTF' in WIH? The GTVA or the UEF? I'm sayin' the GTVA, since they are a military freaks.
I would've defected right to the UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on December 12, 2011, 12:37:45 am
On the other hand, it's the UEF who are trying to contact "someone."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 12, 2011, 02:22:52 am
The NTF were rebells and terrorists fighting the two actual governments in their story arc (Vasudan and Terran).
Sounds more like the Gef to me. They too are rebelling and commiting acts of terror against the two major governments (GTVA and UEF) of this conflict, though unlike the NTF they occasionally cooperate with their enemies to further their own goals.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 12, 2011, 06:43:32 am
The NTF were rebells and terrorists fighting the two actual governments in their story arc (Vasudan and Terran).
Last time I checked, the GTVA was already a unified government in FS2, not exactly two separated entities.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 12, 2011, 07:35:01 am
It's an Alliance. Like the UN, comprised of two thingies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 12, 2011, 01:08:45 pm
Terran General Assembly and Vasudan Parliament are the actual governments. The alliance is just what the name says: An alliance. Though it apperently goes further than the UN. More like a combination of NATO and EU if you ask me.
That's also the reason why they still have seperate militaries, each with their own shis, fleets and command structures.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 12, 2011, 06:26:34 pm
I wonder what that means. I know about the NTF, but who's the 'NTF' in WIH? The GTVA or the UEF? I'm sayin' the GTVA, since they are a military freaks.
I would've defected right to the UEF.

It sounds like you're trying to find the bad-guy.

You will be somewhat unsuccessful, as the story is designed to make both sides shades of gray. Who you like, or dislike, will depend entirely on your ethical position, and in what light you see the sides.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on December 12, 2011, 07:35:31 pm
If you're looking for the "bad guy," I'll bet there will even be a case to be made for the Shivans' being the "good guys." :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 13, 2011, 02:12:36 am
I wonder what that means. I know about the NTF, but who's the 'NTF' in WIH? The GTVA or the UEF? I'm sayin' the GTVA, since they are a military freaks.
I would've defected right to the UEF.

It sounds like you're trying to find the bad-guy.

You will be somewhat unsuccessful, as the story is designed to make both sides shades of gray. Who you like, or dislike, will depend entirely on your ethical position, and in what light you see the sides.
You could even say three sides, since even the Gef are not pure evil. They too fight for what they believe is the right thing, though some of their cells use very questionable methods. But then again all the Gef in the campaign were of the same radical cell, there might be other asteriods inhabitat by groups that try to save the planets by chaining themselfs to machines and camping on construction sites and such.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 13, 2011, 05:09:51 pm
ATTENTION ALL BP FANS

An update to BP2 has been released. Please update your installs.
Do note that this update depends on other updates that were applied to BP1, please redownload BP1 Core and BP1 Visuals1 packages.

EDIT:

Due to a snafu during VP packaging, the shiphull7 texture is missing. Please download it here: http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/Shiphull7.7z and place it in blueplanet2\data\maps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 13, 2011, 06:12:59 pm
Yessss!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 13, 2011, 06:37:07 pm
Alright: There are several problems with this obviously amazing update.

The UES Aranyaka still has the Centuar description, including the Centuar's name referenced in the description.

Cockpits are not rendering properly. I may simply not have the glass textures?

Despite those two minor errors; this is incredible. How much of the fiction has changed? Would the authors recommend reading through all of it again?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rscaper1070 on December 13, 2011, 06:52:25 pm
I'm getting "404-Not Found" for Visuals 1. :( Is it getting reupped with that missing texture file in place?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 13, 2011, 06:53:52 pm
That it is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 13, 2011, 07:14:33 pm
Regarding the fiction: Nothing has changed there, except we're using a new font for all texts not appearing on the HUD which may make them all a bit easier to read. Related to that, if you find yourself unable to scroll down in some command briefings, it means you are not using 3.6.14 RC2, which will be available shortly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 13, 2011, 07:37:22 pm
Speaking of the HUD, it's amazing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 13, 2011, 07:42:59 pm
bp2-visuals1 has been reuploaded. Please redownload it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mjn.mixael on December 13, 2011, 08:01:23 pm
Nice radar... :/

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 13, 2011, 08:20:41 pm
Cockpits now have glass!

Is it just me or is the Cretheus > Custos? Faster acceleration, further engagement range, faster maximum speed, MUCH smaller profile.

EDIT:

Ancamna has an enormous kill score currently. 65,536 points.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on December 13, 2011, 08:35:47 pm
The two .7z files that have downloaded thus far both fail to open (bp2-adv-visuals and bp-visuals2) :(

Edit: In either 7zip or winrar

Edit: Add bp-visuals1 to the list of .7z files that won't open. :( My connection is chugging along at 10-26 KB/s for the three remaining files, ETA 2 hours. If they are also corrupt, I am going to be very disappoint.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 13, 2011, 08:52:21 pm
I'd hold off downloading any of them for now. There are still a few models that need to be testing, and there are still some bogus descriptions and table values that need checking.

EDIT: Sorry about this, but I'm going to temporarily take down the download links for now. Those who have already downloaded the update -- the modpack shouldn't  break anything ingame for the most part, but a few niggling stuff means the files are going to get updated again in the near future, and I'd rather minimise people downloading the same file twice.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on December 14, 2011, 05:52:28 am
:wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on December 14, 2011, 06:35:49 am
Argh what a tease! Really looking forward to the WiH update.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on December 14, 2011, 09:32:15 am
Argh what a tease! Really looking forward to the WiH update.

I managed to get them in time, sooo pretty  :D  Can't wait for the final update.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on December 14, 2011, 09:56:24 am
FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU--
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 14, 2011, 02:43:07 pm
Downloads are live once more. Get cracking.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on December 14, 2011, 03:07:02 pm
Nice radar... :/
Obviously the Tev AWACS is trying to intimidate you with a solid wall of enemies!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on December 14, 2011, 03:30:54 pm
Wow, that was fast. Very impressive models--good work, and thank you.

Maybe if the UEF is pressed for drydock time to upgrade Karunas to Mk2, they could cut out the new paintjob. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 14, 2011, 04:33:48 pm
The geometry is much different as well. I suspect it was two different Karuna models developed in tandem, and the BP team worked both in - but I could very well be mistaken.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 14, 2011, 04:39:30 pm
Two different models. The MkI is optiruna from Esarai, fitting in the same style as the optirayana and the Solaris. MkII is Steve-O own new version of his Hyperion ship (the original basis of WiH old Karunas) and wasn't made with WiH in mind as far as I know.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 14, 2011, 04:46:44 pm
Is the stuff from the "WiH lighting test" package (saturation, film grain, ect) still compatible with the new release?

Did the UEM Florence always look like this before? Because now it looks like a recolored, high poly version of the TEC Percheron light carrier from Sins of a Solar Empire with added turrets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 14, 2011, 05:05:46 pm
No, and it hasn't been for some time as far as I am aware. It's really not recommended to be used anymore.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 14, 2011, 05:15:36 pm
So, if I got no BP at all...installing AoA and then WiH would ensure I got this fancy update?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 14, 2011, 05:20:43 pm
Since the original links in the release-post were replaced with the new files, yes.

Having the text above the radar is something I need to get used to, but it sure makes it less likely to not notice an incoming message, even in the middle of a battle.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on December 14, 2011, 05:49:10 pm
Is the stuff from the "WiH lighting test" package (saturation, film grain, ect) still compatible with the new release?

I've just tested it and it seems to work. Personally I think the grain and saturation are an integral part of War in Heaven, so it's a shame to see The E say they're no longer recommended.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JCDNWarrior on December 14, 2011, 06:04:25 pm
Great to see there's a new release with new ships - I'll be checking it out tomorrow. Could give my own project something of a boost as well ;) Great work, looking forward to WiH Part 2 as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 15, 2011, 03:24:12 am
I'm a little sad to see the old Mig-21 look-a-like Lao Tze being replaced by a Star Fury Thunderbold look-a-like. Don't get me wrong, the new one looks very good too, but I like the old one a bit better.
Any chance the model might make a return as a new fighter in the future?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Talon 1024 on December 15, 2011, 03:48:24 am
I doubt it, since the "old" LaoTze model is essentially a copy/ripoff of someone else's artwork.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on December 15, 2011, 06:01:59 am
awww, it's gone?  that was my favorite fighter design i've ever seen in freespace. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Talon 1024 on December 15, 2011, 08:08:19 am
I don't know why, but I'm getting this error message when playing Post Meridian:

Code: [Select]
Cannot find a dock path for ship Indus Alpha 1, dock index 0.  Aborting dock.

<no module>! KiFastSystemCallRet
<no module>! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
<no module>! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
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Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on December 15, 2011, 08:24:28 am
awww, it's gone?  that was my favorite fighter design i've ever seen in freespace. :(
I really felt it broke too much with the UEF style.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 15, 2011, 08:53:39 am
I don't know why, but I'm getting this error message when playing Post Meridian:

Dockpoints for Kentauroi were borked at one point. Looks like the fix didn't take.

We'll update the visuals1 vp but for now, everyone use this (http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/jackal-E.7z) fixed pof.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 15, 2011, 08:56:32 am
Hm, I use the new build and the BP updates to install my SCP from the very start...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on December 15, 2011, 10:09:01 am
I don't know why, but I'm getting this error message when playing Post Meridian:

Dockpoints for Kentauroi were borked at one point. Looks like the fix didn't take.

We'll update the visuals1 vp but for now, everyone use this (http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/jackal-E.7z) fixed pof.
Thanks for this man, I'm having the same problem on Darkest Hour as well. Where do we put the pof?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 15, 2011, 10:10:29 am
blueplanet2\data\models
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 15, 2011, 12:46:40 pm
Celebration of freespace thread directed me here. Praise be to new updates. (Do Karunas still nuke system performance?)

(Also, when you say that 3.6.12 is no longer supported, does that mean that I should be grabbing 3.6.14 RC1, or is sticking with a recent 3.6.13 nightly okay)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on December 15, 2011, 12:55:13 pm
Celebration of freespace thread directed me here. Praise be to new updates. (Do Karunas still nuke system performance?)

(Also, when you say that 3.6.12 is no longer supported, does that mean that I should be grabbing 3.6.14 RC1, or is sticking with a recent 3.6.13 nightly okay)

It means grab RC2 which is now out, and yes I saw a performance increase with the new ships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 15, 2011, 02:07:07 pm
awww, it's gone?  that was my favorite fighter design i've ever seen in freespace. :(
I really felt it broke too much with the UEF style.
Which is still the same with the replacement.
Apart from that, I don't mind it not looking in line with the rest of the fleet, since they are exclusively piloted by the white guard and thus not part of the regular military.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 15, 2011, 02:16:51 pm
So, after minor difficulties (thanks again to Zacam and Kyad ;)) I was able to play the update with the latest build and as of now it is sweet.
For the first time I'm able to fully enjoy everything^^
And the Karuna Mk2 is sweet, can't wait to see it screwing Tevs before being guttet by them :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 15, 2011, 02:49:54 pm
WiH 1 is essentially a series of "look at them run - hahaha. . . oh god. . . oh ****" events.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on December 15, 2011, 04:25:25 pm
I doubt it, since the "old" LaoTze model is essentially a copy/ripoff of someone else's artwork.
The guy then gave us permission to use it. He was very ticked with the lack of credit, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on December 15, 2011, 11:42:28 pm
Whatever happened to thorough testing before releasing? I hope you guys aren't slipping from the quality standards you've set with prior releases and updates. I was also very concerned about releasing an update that requires 3.6.14 RC2 before it was even out. Even though it was indeed released very soon after, was there really such a hurry you couldn't have waited till next day? Would have given the time to spot those bugs that required you to pull the updates too.

It sounds as if some R2 assets were included with the WiH update, which seems a bit odd. But I guess this was done intentionally since the svn at least used to be structured to prevent this from happening.

Regardless, congratulations for releasing the updates. Optimized UEF ships alone makes it well worth the trouble.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 16, 2011, 01:07:38 am
Metal shaders are a nice addition on top of the new RC2 pixel shaders. However, it'd be nice if the effect is tweakable. With my current lighting settings, the metal shader highlights are somewhat overbearing.

(Also, not sure if by design or otherwise, WiH will not render sunshafts, almost as if they were forced off)

Edit: sorry, ignore my rant.

Could someone tell me what the custom gauges in the table do? I'm interested in customizing my local setup for a neater 16:9 HUD and would appreciate knowing what they are. For example, where can I see an example of this stealth gauge? Thanks
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Venicius on December 16, 2011, 07:31:09 pm
Hey, just downloaded the new files for bp and WiH but I've got fighters that show up completely black except for the cockpits. Is it the "visuals" or the "assets" files I need to redownload?

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 16, 2011, 09:46:32 pm
Well next time hopefully there'll be better communication with the team leader about releasing the modpack and there won't have to be a hurried testing session by the only person around at the time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 17, 2011, 05:15:30 am
Hey, just downloaded the new files for bp and WiH but I've got fighters that show up completely black except for the cockpits. Is it the "visuals" or the "assets" files I need to redownload?

Here's your problem:
Code: [Select]
  OpenGL Renderer  : Intel 965/963 Graphics Media Accelerator
  OpenGL Version   : 2.0.0 - Build 8.14.10.1930

This graphics chip is not capable of running with shaders, despite its best attempt at doing so. You need to start the exe with the "Disable GLSL support" option activated (To be found under Troubleshooting).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CaptJosh on December 17, 2011, 08:46:36 am
Either that or get a real GPU. Intel Graphics, even the more recent HD APU versions, just don't handle 3D accel and shaders and such worth a damn.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 17, 2011, 08:50:57 am
I am actually kinda worried that the engine even tries to load the shaders. According to the log, the GLSL supportes is version 1.1, the FS shaders are written against 1.2 or higher...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 17, 2011, 10:01:45 am
My crapbook has an intelgrated 945GM and I have no such issue. The shaders aren't loaded for me, which is the intended behaviour with such ****ty chipsets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Venicius on December 17, 2011, 12:50:56 pm
disable glsl support did the trick!  those ships are beautiful!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on December 18, 2011, 01:34:46 am
so are the downloads all sorted out now?  can i get the update and not have to put individual models/whatever in also?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 18, 2011, 07:08:00 am
Apart from the Kentauroi dockpoints, nothing else gamebreaking has come up so far after more testing. The Solaris is slightly smaller than it should be, but that'll be fixed along with the Kentauroi.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 18, 2011, 08:24:38 am
I just noticed something fishy going on with the Karuna MK2, while putting her through some 1v1 battle to see what she's got.
Most of the time no problems, but sometimes when the rotating section is destroyed, it isn't replaced by the damaged looking one, but simply disappears. So basically there is no connection between the front and back parts.
So far it happened twice out of 11 times. I can't say how often the rotating section got destroyed and was properly replaced with the damaged model though, but twice it just became invisible. I could still crash into it and hit it with weapons and from the hitbox I'd say the invisible part is the damaged model.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: metirian on December 18, 2011, 11:18:12 am
i also have a question. the same thing happens to me about the karuna Mk2 but my question is about the karuna 1. when i play the model in the missions i made it will come out of warp and when i target it it has no subsystems and weapons. so when its attack it doesn't fight back. I'm new at this so is there something wrong with the model. or my computer?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 18, 2011, 12:20:17 pm
When I put a Karuna and a Karuna 2 into a mission, both worked fine.
Does it only happen in that self-made mission or in the campaign too?
If it's only in the mission, maybe you borked something up while FREDding.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on December 19, 2011, 08:10:39 pm
Well,  I got bored studying for finals and decided to pop back in here to see what's new, and what do you know, the BP team has another awesome update.  I've grabbed the 3.6.14 RC2 build and all the updates for both AoA and BP2, but I'm having some weird lighiting issues, specifically w/ custom flags.  I think it will be easier to just show what's happening. Oh, and I've attached a FS2_open log.

So this is what it looks like w/ an empty custom flags field and hidden post-processing:

(http://img831.imageshack.us/img831/3165/screen0154.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/831/screen0154.png/)

And w/ post-processing turned on:

(http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/9305/screen0155.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/694/screen0155.png/)


And then this is what happens when I plug Herra Tohtori's settings into the launcher and postprocessing is hidden:

(http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/9382/screen0158.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/607/screen0158.png/)


Finally, Herra's settings in the launcher w/ post-processing on:

(http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1674/screen0159.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/444/screen0159.png/)


I have no idea what's going on here.  Those same settings worked fine on 3.6.12, and the new shaders in the BP2 update work fine on their own, but they don't want to play well together.  I've tried several other custom settings, and they've given similar results.

edit: messed up the image links

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 19, 2011, 08:45:01 pm
Do you get something similar with other ships? The new karuna has some lighting issues in the model, so it's probably not the best candidate to test lighting on.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on December 19, 2011, 09:02:45 pm
It happens on everything.  On top of that, I realized I missed the new shaders for 3.6.14. When I dropped them into mediavps_3.6.12, the same thing happened while running just the mediavps.

edit: I just tried running 3.6.14 RC2 w/ 3.6.12 mediavps and custom flags without the new shaders installed and it worked fine. With the new shaders, everything looked like the above images.  The same thing happens with BP2 even without those shaders in the mediavps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 19, 2011, 10:01:52 pm
Is it just me, or do you get way higher FPS with bloom and FXAA on rather than off? That shouldn't be happening unless some rendering steps are getting cut out, I think. (Or I guess if the fps counter goes haywire when you printscreen...)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on December 19, 2011, 10:20:07 pm
That's just from hitting printscreen.  For most ships, my FPS hols steady at 120 whether postprocessing is on or off.  The only time it drops at all is when using postprocessing on large ships (destroyer+).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 20, 2011, 12:25:37 am
Well, we ARE using a desaturation/noise filter in post. Those don't really play well with excessively dark settings.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 20, 2011, 01:24:31 am
The excessive darkening in screenshots with post-processing on should just be from the the upped contrast flag, I'm guessing. (Usually, it's a good idea to keep emissive light on when contrast is tweaked up, I find)

I still find it strange that things look so dark. Herra's settings don't look like those screenshots. Also, my lighting stayed about the same when moving from 3.6.13 shaders to WIH shaders. I'd have to say that something is definitely gimped in your local setup.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 20, 2011, 05:50:22 am
How big are the chances to see a mission like "The blade itself" with the Karuna MK2?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on December 20, 2011, 11:31:10 am
Well, we ARE using a desaturation/noise filter in post. Those don't really play well with excessively dark settings.

I tried using the recommended settings on the wiki and this is what happnes:

(http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/1675/screen0165.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/823/screen0165.png/)

I don't know why everything seems to be so dark.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 20, 2011, 11:32:22 am
Have you tried not using -no-emissive-light?

EXPERIMENT TIME:

Recommended light settings, no pp:
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/reclightnopp.png)
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/reclightnopp2.png)

Recommended light settings, pp:
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/reclightpp.png)
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/reclightpp2.png)

Default light settings (what I play with), no pp:
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/deflightnopp.png)
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/deflightnopp2.png)

Default light settings, pp:
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/deflightpp.png)
(http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/E/pics/deflightpp2.png)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on December 20, 2011, 11:51:51 am
Have you tried not using -no-emissive-light?

Yeah, that last shot was w/ the recommended settings, which don't use -no-emissive-light.  I've tried pretty much all of the choices on the sample lighting page, and they all give similar results.

EDIT:

Recommended Settings, No pp:
(http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/3469/screen0166.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/209/screen0166.png/)

Recommended Settings w/ pp:
(http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/3804/screen0167.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/screen0167.png/)


Default, no pp:
(http://img560.imageshack.us/img560/686/screen0168.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/560/screen0168.png/)

Default w/ pp:
(http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5168/screen0169.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/502/screen0169.png/)

Edit 2: Ok, I've been experimenting w/ just running the mediavps.  If I run 3.6.14 RC2 w/ 3.6.12 mediavps w/out the new shaders, everything looks fine.  But when I put the new shaders into the mediavps folder, it seems like it only displays abient lighting (which would explain why -no-emissive-light made everything completely black).  W/ the new shaders, no matter how high I turn bloom, there are no reflections in the ship lab.  This same thing happens in BP regardless if I have the shaders in the mediavps or not.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 20, 2011, 03:32:04 pm
Seems everything is rendered a lot darker than it is on my end. Are there any settings in your GPU driver's control panel that may affect this?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on December 20, 2011, 04:06:25 pm
Seems everything is rendered a lot darker than it is on my end. Are there any settings in your GPU driver's control panel that may affect this?

I've already reset everything to default.  This might be something I shoud brind up on the SCP board because their shaders are causing the same issues.  I've tried running just the mediavps, and it seems when I use the shaders, it stops rendering external lighting: notice how their are absolutely no reflections or bloom on any of my screenshots.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 20, 2011, 04:08:36 pm
How big are the chances to see a mission like "The blade itself" with the Karuna MK2?
:(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 20, 2011, 04:10:38 pm
One question just occured to me: Your log says you're using a 5730, yet the log also says that the supported OpenGL version is 3.3. Which version of the Catalyst drivers are you using? Because all 5k series cards can do OpenGL 4.2 with the latest drivers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Delta_V on December 20, 2011, 04:43:50 pm
One question just occured to me: Your log says you're using a 5730, yet the log also says that the supported OpenGL version is 3.3. Which version of the Catalyst drivers are you using? Because all 5k series cards can do OpenGL 4.2 with the latest drivers.

Thanks, got everything working now.  Time for a stupid question: how do you make sure those drivers are up to date?  I went into the device manager and Windows said that the drivers were up to date, but in fact they had not been updated since I bought the computer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 20, 2011, 04:48:29 pm
Well. One, don't trust Windows update on this. The drivers distributed by Win Update are bare minimum drivers that aren't recommended for anything. Two, keep an eye out. AMD has a monthly release schedule, while you aren't required to update every month (and in fact, given that updates sometimes break things, it's best to wait a few weeks while people test them out), checking back every two or three months is always a good idea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: metirian on December 20, 2011, 11:09:16 pm
well i reinstalled war in heave again after i coulden't get the karuna's to work. so i loaded a mission up and again the models still don't work right. so im now at a loss.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on December 21, 2011, 01:55:53 am
well i reinstalled war in heave again after i coulden't get the karuna's to work. so i loaded a mission up and again the models still don't work right. so im now at a loss.

Did you download the AoA update as well?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: metirian on December 21, 2011, 07:26:42 pm
yes
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: metirian on December 21, 2011, 07:56:23 pm
ok i got it working now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on December 22, 2011, 06:10:57 am
Looking at the new Karuna with shadows is beyond drool-worthy. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 22, 2011, 06:39:31 am
Droid did some work on the Karuna, and the lighting errors have been fixed. New visuals1 will be uploaded over the next couple of hours.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on December 23, 2011, 07:12:18 pm
It seems that something borked here with the Karuna Mk II. The subsystems don't rotate with the new visuals.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Alpha1 on December 25, 2011, 06:54:51 am
Thanks for the Update!
What i liked: updated models for vishnan ships etc are great and the new Lao-Tse looks fantastic! Arestia is balanced better i think.
But there is some criticism too.
-I have to wait very long for the florence class vessel in "The cost of War". Its a bit boring in the end to wait for that ship. The last ship in the convoy and it travells with only 30m/s, not 35 like the others...
-I can't find a singel reason for the Cho in "Collateral Damage" to depart - it isn't even scratched?!? When i first played the mission the Regensburg blowed up after shooting from Ranvir i think - liked that!!! I replayed the mission in the simulator and the Ranvir doesn't shoot with its main guns until the Regensburg departs... i only uses the torpedos and the Cardinal gets into beam range... the Ranvir could have opened fire long ago - maybe a skripting error?
-Delenda est has become very difficult or i was in a bad shape... Its hard to disarm that much beams between all these ships! I played the original mission some dayes before and i think it was balanced a bit better. But maybe I have to get used to the update.
-Is there something wrong? The Rapier is a "blue Kayser now" :-((
-The support ship is great! But sometimes it bounces around with more than 200m/s and doesn't rearm anybody :-( It happend in Dalenda est and the mission before.
-the Uriel gunships in this mission always ram me and get too close so i have trouble to rearm after disarming the Antenor. After it is disarmed the antenor went green and one pilot complains about friendly fire when i disabled the com with the gattler :-)) After some time it goes violet like in the original
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Killer Whale on December 25, 2011, 11:40:41 pm
Gah! Errors!
There is much errors in this post, if you no like errors, skip post.

Worked fine originally, heard there was a patch so I redownloaded a few files, had crashes, redowloaded all the BP and BP2 files (not saving backups of the originals) and 3.6.14 RC2

Using no-SSE (using SSE has same result) debug .14 RC2 build:
Error message on start:
Code: [Select]
Unrecognized weapon 'TAG-AAA' found when setting weapon targeting priorities.

ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! SCP_DumpStack + 354 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! Warning + 430 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! parse_weapon_targeting_priorities + 599 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! parse_shiptype_tbl + 255 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! parse_modular_table + 267 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! ship_init + 106 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! game_init + 1645 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! game_main + 519 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! WinMain + 330 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! __tmainCRTStartup + 358 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! WinMainCRTStartup + 15 bytes
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 239 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 194 bytes
"Yes" crashes, log (http://pastebin.com/ciMiHG5K)
"No"
Code: [Select]
bp2-obt.tbm(line 24:
Error: required token = [#End] or [$Name:}, found {+ Target Priority:               (
"bombers" "].

ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! SCP_DumpStack + 354 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! Error + 229 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! error_display + 427 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! required_string_either + 240 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! parse_shiptype_tbl + 240 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe!  parse_modular_table + 267 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! ship_init + 106 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! game_init + 1645 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! game_main + 519 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! WinMain + 330 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! __tmainCRTStartup + 15 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_DEBUG_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! WinMainCRTStartup + 15 bytes
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtInitializeExceptionChain + 239 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtInitializeExceptionChain + 194 bytes
No crashes. When I tab out to paste the error, this one shows up (so I had to type the above out):
Code: [Select]
LUA ERROR: [string "csc_KeyPressed.lua"]:2: attempt to index global 'ui_keyToggleFunctions' (a nil value)

------------------------------------------------------------------
ADE Debug:
------------------------------------------------------------------
Name: (null)
Name of:
Function type: main
Defined on: 0
Upvalues: 0

Source: csc_KeyPressed.lua
Short source: [string "csc_KeyPressed.lua"]
Current line: 1
- Function line: 0
------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------------------------------------------
LUA Stack:
------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------
"Yes" crashes, log (http://pastebin.com/BwPbC8dm)
As does "No"
If I press "Ok" without tabbing out, it crashes

Using no-SSE  .14 RC2 build:
Error:
Code: [Select]
bp2-obt.tbm(line 24:
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [+Target Priority: ( "bombers" "] .

ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
Code: [Select]
bp2-obt.tbm(line 27:
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [+Target Priority: ( "bombs" )] .

ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
"The currently active mod has generated 4 warnings and/or errors during program startup. etc."
There isn't a kentauri (or however you spell it) .pof in the f3 lab
Techroom Kentauri:
Code: [Select]
Can't open model file <Jackal.pof>
ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 239 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 194 bytes
followed by crash.

Start intro mission (artemis station) from techroom:
Code: [Select]
Can't open model file <Jackal.pof>
ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
ntdll.dll! wcsnicmp + 1192 bytes
ntdll.dll! wcsnicmp + 484 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
Above error 5 more times
Code: [Select]
Can't open model file <medliner.pof>
ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
crash


Saw this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70746.msg1570468#msg1570468) post. Put Jackal-E.pof in blueplanet2/data/models

Exactly the same result
Renamed it to Jackal.pof
Same result except when using non-debug: kentauri visible in f3 lab and techroom, Artemis station crashes after
Code: [Select]
Can't open model file <medliner.pof>
ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE_RC2.exe! <no symbol>
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 26, 2011, 04:32:58 am
The checksums of your bp2-core.vp, bp2-visuals1.vp and bp2-visuals2.vp are all different than the ones posted in the Troubleshooting thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70511.0). Same with the number of files that are supposed to be in them.
I would suggest re-downloading those three files.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on December 26, 2011, 04:54:53 am
I was thinking about ways the war could end and just for fun came up with this range (assuming no GTVA civil war or Shivan appearance):

1-Massive UEF victory (GTVA totally kicked out of Sol, with the UEF maybe having a beachhead in Delta Serpentis and has to pay massive reparations and whatnot)

2-Standard UEF victory (status quo ante bellum)

3-Status quo (the war ends as is...GTVA gets 'something' in Sol since they hold up to Jupiter currently)

4-Pyric GTVA victory (GTVA forces a surrender barely but faces a devastating quagmire)

5-Heavy GTVA victory (UEF surrenders after being beaten convincingly with relatively little insurgent/terrorist operations)

Is that a good gamut of options? (#5 admittedly sounds like wishful thinking but I couldn't think of anything else for the "best case scenario" for the GTVA)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Killer Whale on December 26, 2011, 07:15:30 am
I noticed that but I'd say the aforementioned update changed things and those checksums in the troubleshooting section weren't updated. Redownloading those files though, standby for edit

Edit: Confirmed, errors persist, checksums still the same (aka, different)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on December 26, 2011, 07:19:26 am
I was thinking about ways the war could end and just for fun came up with this range (assuming no GTVA civil war or Shivan appearance):

3-Status quo (the war ends as is...GTVA gets 'something' in Sol since they hold up to Jupiter currently)
There's only one side that will still exist after that war...apparently. Never forget that the vishnans, shivans and other entities play some interesting roles too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 26, 2011, 08:29:32 am
I noticed that but I'd say the aforementioned update changed things and those checksums in the troubleshooting section weren't updated. Redownloading those files though, standby for edit

Edit: Confirmed, errors persist, checksums still the same (aka, different)

Checksums and file numbers have been updated.

That said, your log shows 11 files in the Blueplanet2 directory that are not in any .vp. Are there any tbls or so you added manually?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Killer Whale on December 26, 2011, 05:32:26 pm
Yes, more recent log says 13. Files in blueplanet2 folder:
Blue Planet - Forums.url
Blue Planet - Homepage.url
Blue Planet - Troubleshooting.url
bp2-adv-visuals.vp
bp2-audio1.vp
bp2-core.vp
bp2-visuals1.vp
bp2-visuals2.vp
bplogo.bmp
mod.ini
data (folder)
 - effects
 - - main-f.sdr
 - - main-v.sdr
 - models
 - - jackal.pof
 - tables
 - - post_processing.tbl

Which doesn't add to 13.
Other info: My comp's a 32bit Win7 with 4GB RAM, intel i5, AMD 6950 (a thought just occured to me to update my drivers, it didn't help). My Freespace 2 is at C:/Program Files/Freespace 2, so if I click "compatability files" (how I have to find my log (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,56279.msg1180359.html#msg1180359)) at the top of the windows explorer window it brings me to (C:/Users/)my name/AppData/Local/VirtualStore/Program Files/Freespace 2/blueplanet2 which has a mess of .tbl, .tbm, .ibx and .fs2 (not sure if that's the original file extention for FRED files or my mistakes with "open file with" changed it at some point) files and folders in it (I can't get them to add to 13 in any way either).
Recent log:
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.6.13.8090
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 15
  -ogl_spec 20
  -spec_static 1.5
  -spec_point 1.2
  -spec_tube 1.5
  -ambient_factor 35
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -spec
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -soft_particles
  -post_process
  -fxaa
  -ballistic_gauge
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -window
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x241c257f
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x51171798
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xbbf00493
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xb84e33a1
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd3552477
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0xbba0f03c
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xe79b67ce
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0xb50d55b7
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x6b804787
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x316467fa
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x39fe8221
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c948078
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd1e3fc51
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x7c9d7e74
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\multi-mission-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0x377695e0
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\multi-voice-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0xd50e7442
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 31 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 156 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 72 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 641 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2012 files
Searching root 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 374 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\' ... 4 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\' ... 14 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\multi-mission-pack.vp' ... 110 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\multi-voice-pack.vp' ... 307 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Program Files\Freespace 2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root 'g:\' ... 0 files
Found 39 roots and 20250 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".

  Sample rate: 44100 (44100)
  EFX version: 1.0
  Max auxiliary sends: 1
  Playback device: Generic Software on Speakers (Realtek High Definition Audio)
  Capture device: <not available>
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1920x1080 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor    : ATI Technologies Inc.
  OpenGL Renderer  : AMD Radeon HD 6900 Series
  OpenGL Version   : 4.2.11318 Compatibility Profile Context

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (la-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lba-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ba-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (ba-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ba-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (bga-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbga-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsnea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsnea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfba-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbga-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsnea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsnea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: soft-v.sdr (soft-v.sdr), soft-f.sdr (soft-f.sdr)
Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
  Compiling shader: soft-v.sdr (soft-v.sdr), soft-f.sdr (soft-f.sdr)
Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr

  Compiling post-processing shader 1 ...
  Compiling post-processing shader 2 ...
  Compiling post-processing shader 3 ...
  Compiling post-processing shader 4 ...
  Compiling post-processing shader 5 ...
Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-v.sdr
Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 6 ...
Loading built-in default shader for: fxaapre-f.sdr

  Max texture units: 8 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 2147483647
  Max elements indices: 16777215
  Max texture size: 16384x16384
  Max render buffer size: 16384x16384
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  OpenGL Shader Version: 4.20
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
Weapon 'Hornet#Weak' requires the "player allowed" flag, but it's not listed!  Adding it by default.
Weapon 'Harpoon#Weak' requires the "player allowed" flag, but it's not listed!  Adding it by default.
Weapon 'Hornet#Weak#Shivan' requires the "player allowed" flag, but it's not listed!  Adding it by default.
Weapon 'Harpoon#Weak#Shivan' requires the "player allowed" flag, but it's not listed!  Adding it by default.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Unrecognized weapon 'TAG-AAA' found when setting weapon targeting priorities." at ship.cpp:16800
bp2-obt.tbm(line 24:Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [+Target Priority: ( "bombers" "] .
ERROR: bp2-obt.tbm(line 24:
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [+Target Priority: ( "bombers" "] .

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 262
Int3(): From c:\code\fs2_open_3_6_14_rc2\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1148



Edit: Forgot to recheck checksums, it appears bp2-core.vp has a different checksum and file count than the ones in troubleshooting, even after a redownload.

Edit: The mess of files in (C:/Users/)my name/AppData/Local/VirtualStore/Program Files/Freespace 2/blueplanet2:
Code: [Select]
data
 - cache
 - - corvette2t-01.ibx
 - - fighter2s01.ibx
 - - fighter2s02.ibx
 - - fighter2t05.ibx
 - - fighter2v02.ibx
 - - fighter03.ibx
 - - fighter10.ibx
 - - Jackal.bx (not .ibx; .bx)
 - missions (These look like relics from old missions I mucked around with a while back. Looks like deletions aren't permenant)
 - - Backup.001
 - - bp2-karunacommand.fs2
 - - Dogfight.bak
 - - Dogfight.fs2
 - - Karuna-refit.bak
 - - Karuna-refit.fs2
 - - Test.bak
 - - Test.fs2
 - New Folder
 - - Dogfight.fs2
 - tables
 - - bp2-betty-sct.tbm
 - - bp2-shp.tbm
 - - bp2-wep.tbm
 - ai.tbl
 - bp2-aip.tbm
 - bp2-amr.tbm
 - bp2-betty-sct.tbm
 - bp2-csc-sct.tbm
 - bp2-mfl.tbm
 - bp2-mus.tbm
 - bp2-obt.tbm
 - bp2-shp.tbm
 - bp2-str.tbm
 - bp2-stupid-sct.tbm
 - bp2-tcard-sct.tbm
 - bp2-wep.tbm
 - credits.tbl
 - icons.tbl
 - mainhall.tbl
 - messages.tbl
 - multi.log
 - sounds.tbl
 - Species.tbl
 - ssm.tbl
 - Tcp.cfg
 - tips.tbl
ai.tbl
bp2-aip.tbm
bp2-amr.tbm
bp2-betty-sct.tbm
bp2-csc-sct.tbm
bp2-mfl.tbm
bp2-mus.tbm
bp2-obt.tbm
bp2-shp.tbm
bp2-str.tbm
bp2-stupid-sct.tbm
bp2-tcard-sct.tbm
bp2-wep.tbm
credits.tbl
hm
icons.tbl
mainhall.tbl
messages.tbl
settings.ini
sounds.tbl
Species.tbl
ssm.tbl
tips.tbl
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 27, 2011, 05:36:59 am
Please delete all of those tbl, tbm and fs2 files.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Killer Whale on December 27, 2011, 08:56:18 am
It works! :D :yes: Thanks The E!
There are a still a couple of mission specific errors, but the game is playable, so I don't really mind. I'll put them here anyway though.
Looks great, awesome just got more awesome.

Edit: Mission specific errors are also specific to debug build, I don't care about them anymore.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 27, 2011, 11:40:59 am
Shouldn't the debug build have identical behavior to the release build? Otherwise, isn't that very bad for debugging?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 27, 2011, 12:06:08 pm
No, the debug build will complain very loudly whenever something isn't as expected.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on December 27, 2011, 12:35:20 pm
Shouldn't the debug build have identical behavior to the release build? Otherwise, isn't that very bad for debugging?
It's good for debugging because if something works perfectly in the debug build, then it will surely work in the release build. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on December 27, 2011, 02:56:11 pm
Shouldn't the debug build have identical behavior to the release build? Otherwise, isn't that very bad for debugging?

In principle yes.  However you seem to be misunderstanding what the warnings really are.

The things that Debug whines about are more trivial things like if a tbl entry is ambiguous, from past experience (read bug reports) appears to be a typo, or something "minor" is missing (like a texture or sound). Some things are so trivial that we don't even generate a popup for, we just write to the log, such as a missing scripting.tbl. The warning code is such that, if you click through the warnings from Debug, the same assumptions are made as in release, and the same typos are ignored or changed.

If something is a real error debug and release will always stop a prevent further execution.  If that is not what happens, that is a bug and please file a mantis report with reproduction instructions so that we can fix it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 27, 2011, 11:31:27 pm
Ooh, okay. Thanks for the clarifications everyone.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 29, 2011, 10:13:49 am
From the updated release thread

Quote
-Switched all models to use glass-trans for compatibility with new transparency-handling code

Could somebody elaborate on that please? The wiki article on -trans maps is sort of vague:

Quote
This enables the transparency for the map of the model, once again using the UV’s for the model. Map in question can also be set as -shine or -glow map (for example TextureName-trans-glow). Transparency can also be set through alpha channel (see further below), but the use of the -trans method offers a number of benefits, attributed to the different nature of its rendering. For one, use of -trans textures eliminates the issue of rendering order, and the texture behaves as if the "transparent" box is checked in the ship lab.

Note: unlike with other textures, simply providing an extra MyShip-trans texture doesn't work. You must actually name your base texture MyShip-trans and do so also in the pof file. So instead of MyShip.dds, MyShip-normal.dds and MyShip-trans.dds, you need MyShip-trans.dds and MyShip-trans-normal.dds.

How exactly is the rendering different and why does it require an explicit "MyShip-trans-normal.dds" map? I looked all over the modding subforum, but couldn't find an relevant thread.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 29, 2011, 10:47:22 am
Normally, transparency effects depend on the model file being laid out in a very specific way so that everything that is supposed to have a transparent texture is at the end of the model file and thus being rendered last.
With -trans textures, the engine automatically detects an intended transparency, and shunts all of the affected polygons to the end of the render pipeline. This is a necessary step needed to ensure that shadows work correctly, as well as making model creation much easier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 29, 2011, 10:54:14 am
Aha, so the -trans suffix only changes the rendering order? The transparency itself is still defined in the alpha channel, correct?
I just would like to be sure, that this has nothing to do with the old way -trans worked, because IIRC a long time ago, the -trans suffix could be used for separate map, that defined transparency with a 8bit grayscale map.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 29, 2011, 11:04:49 am
Yes. Because the old way was simply silly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on December 29, 2011, 06:53:21 pm
Just wanted to say that I laughed way more than I probably should have at the detail3 of the Solaris:

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/215663/solarisd3.PNG)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on December 31, 2011, 09:57:16 am
Minor issue I've noticed: the new Karuna model seems to jump slightly forward/backward when LODs switch. This is most noticeable  when the camera pulls away from the Yangtze at the end of Delenda Est.

Other than that, the Karuna is now probably my favorite model in FreeSpace.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 31, 2011, 11:12:08 am
Yep, it's a known problem. I suspect the fix is an easy one that involves recentering axes in a modelling program. Moving the subobject in PCS2 does nothing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 31, 2011, 11:15:01 am
The Cretheus has a similar issue, just for info. Not that anyone noticed it since VD anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 31, 2011, 01:36:37 pm
Does the centrifuge on the Karuna MkII spin for anyone else? It doesn't for me in the ship lab.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on December 31, 2011, 03:40:23 pm
Does the centrifuge on the Karuna MkII spin for anyone else? It doesn't for me in the ship lab.

under render options theres one labeled "rotate subsystems" or such, check that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on January 01, 2012, 03:14:29 pm
If that doesn't work, you have to redownload bp2_core (and possibly visuals2 if you haven't done that either) again. I only updated visuals1 at the time because I thought only that changed in the minor update.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mvmiller12 on January 02, 2012, 02:51:56 am
Hello, All:

I just wanted to say that I have played FreeSpace and FreeSpace 2 many, many times and been following the SCP for several years now, but this is the first time I have downloaded and played Blue Planet. I downloaded AOA, completed that, and just completed WiH-P1. I have a few things to say about it:

1) The story line is awesome. AoA was very good - WiH-P1 is nothing short of stunning.

2) I can't wait until the voice overs get done - the story could be hard to follow when things were going on onscreen. Also, the font can be exceptionally difficult to read against certain skyboxes in-game (I really need to make the HUD Bright Pink :)). It would be very nice if there was some way to review a dialogue log of some sort after the mission, to see things I may have missed while in-mission.

3) The difficulty level is. . . punishing. I normally play through the normal FreeSpace and FreeSpace 2 campaigns on "Medium" and they are easy-to-moderately challenging. I had to set the difficulty for these down to "Very Easy" and still there were a few missions on each side I had to retry >5 times to finally get. I realize this * may * be on purpose, but. . . wow (and I used to think I was good at these games :))

4) The only truly negative thing I have to say is: having to manually enter the fighter bay (EVER) sucks. There is no other way to put it. It just plain sucks. It can take a while to get there, especially if I am far out. On some ships, the fighter bay is difficult to locate, even when you have the "Fighter Bay" subsystem highlighted in the HUD. I have a nasty habit of running into the ship repeatedly while trying to get to and even actually get IN the fighter bay when I finally find it (There was 1 mission it took me over 10 minutes to find the thing - it was apparently in the top middle of the ship as opposed to the sides). It would be very nice if we could just ALT-J these and it be assumed you landed.

Great work, people! Very much anxiously looking forward to WiH-P2, though I imagine it is still quite aways off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 02, 2012, 05:07:54 am
2) I can't wait until the voice overs get done - the story could be hard to follow when things were going on onscreen. Also, the font can be exceptionally difficult to read against certain skyboxes in-game (I really need to make the HUD Bright Pink :)). It would be very nice if there was some way to review a dialogue log of some sort after the mission, to see things I may have missed while in-mission.
Press F4 while in-mission to review the message log. You can do it just before the end of the mission or when you want really.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mvmiller12 on January 02, 2012, 11:46:45 am
2) I can't wait until the voice overs get done - the story could be hard to follow when things were going on onscreen. Also, the font can be exceptionally difficult to read against certain skyboxes in-game (I really need to make the HUD Bright Pink :)). It would be very nice if there was some way to review a dialogue log of some sort after the mission, to see things I may have missed while in-mission.
Press F4 while in-mission to review the message log. You can do it just before the end of the mission or when you want really.

Thanks very much for the tip! Much appreciated. I should also say that watching video of your Homeworld 2 Blue Planet mod made me dust of Homeworld 2 and play through it again. I haven't played it in 8 years and I forgot how brutal (and fun) that game can be :) Very much looking forward to a playable version of your mod as well!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on January 02, 2012, 01:03:59 pm
If that doesn't work, you have to redownload bp2_core (and possibly visuals2 if you haven't done that either) again. I only updated visuals1 at the time because I thought only that changed in the minor update.

Thanks! This fixed it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 02, 2012, 06:41:22 pm
What do you mean?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rscaper1070 on January 02, 2012, 07:16:32 pm
I think he means the ship lab. Just press F3 when you are in the mainhall.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 03, 2012, 03:59:13 am
4) The only truly negative thing I have to say is: having to manually enter the fighter bay (EVER) sucks. There is no other way to put it. It just plain sucks. It can take a while to get there, especially if I am far out. On some ships, the fighter bay is difficult to locate, even when you have the "Fighter Bay" subsystem highlighted in the HUD. I have a nasty habit of running into the ship repeatedly while trying to get to and even actually get IN the fighter bay when I finally find it (There was 1 mission it took me over 10 minutes to find the thing - it was apparently in the top middle of the ship as opposed to the sides). It would be very nice if we could just ALT-J these and it be assumed you landed.

I had that same problem when I was first given the objective to land on the Indus. Once I found out where the fighterbay actually was, though, it was no longer a problem.

Most Blue Planet missions make it such that you are usually less than 5000m away from the ship where you are supposed to land on. Abusing ETS settings can speed things up a little, and most BP-era ships can cover large distances quickly. Mind you, if you consider 5000m to be far out, you haven't played the KING of far-out skirmishes...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 03, 2012, 04:53:22 am
Might be he is talking about the Sathanas disarming mission. The player can be pretty far away from the Orestes at the end of the mission depending on which direction they went. The Raynor's fighterbay entrance isn't immediately apparent either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 03, 2012, 05:40:24 am
Out of place question: how long does it take you guys to make a high complexity mission like, say, Delenda Est? A month?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 03, 2012, 06:31:22 am
Might be he is talking about the Sathanas disarming mission. The player can be pretty far away from the Orestes at the end of the mission depending on which direction they went. The Raynor's fighterbay entrance isn't immediately apparent either.
True, but there you have all the time you want to return to the Orestes, while in Delenda Est you realy have to turn tail and burn towards the Indus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 03, 2012, 09:45:01 am
Out of place question: how long does it take you guys to make a high complexity mission like, say, Delenda Est? A month?

Well for me it takes longer than others to do complex missions, mainly because I'm getting familiar with stuff that I've never used before. There's one huge mission that I've been trying to complete for the past six months now. Others probably get done around about a month.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 04, 2012, 06:16:33 am
The complexity of the missions in WiH2 cannot be overemphasised. Delenda Est may seem complex, but comparing it to nearly any mission in WiH2 is almost like comparing Surrender, Belisarius! to Windmills.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellstryker on January 05, 2012, 11:58:50 pm
Well for me it takes longer than others to do complex missions, mainly because I'm getting familiar with stuff that I've never used before. There's one huge mission that I've been trying to complete for the past six months now. Others probably get done around about a month.

If you don't mind me asking, is this a BP mission?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on January 06, 2012, 09:18:36 am
is it possible that either the Karuna or the akula itself (mission collateral damage) can take lesss hits now? So i tried this mission 5 times and the akula didnt surive a single time long enough to see the ranvir firing with its main guns on those corvettes. Before the last update the akula surived long enough to be eaten by a SSM-Strike.
Wut? The Akula is supposed to fight the Corvettes long enough till the Ranvir gives them a run for it's money. It never happened to me that the Akula was destroyed before that uber-SSM.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 06, 2012, 09:51:24 am
I confirm the Akula gets hulled long before the Ranvir can finish his own corvette in current version.

I'm confident the BP team is working on all those new issues.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 06, 2012, 09:59:56 am
Strange...it survives...just played the mission...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 06, 2012, 10:04:31 am
What difficulty settings are you all playing on? Maybe the problem only occurs above a certain level.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 06, 2012, 10:08:53 am
What question is that. Hard or Insane are the only difficulties worth being played.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 06, 2012, 10:34:43 am
The fate of the Akula is run via a roulette - it has a 1 in 4 chance of getting Heavy Armor 60 (60% of damage), and the rest of the time it has Heavy Armor 80. The Akula's surviveability in the initial battle was quite variable to begin with - maybe it's just been a particularly bad run for the ship?

I'll look a bit more into it and see if it's anything else.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gorman on January 06, 2012, 11:31:04 am
After downloading the newest version and replaying the WIH for a third time - It's a Masterpiece.

In the newest version, on hard level, the Akula is destroyed most of the time by those 2 Corvettes. Only Once out of 5 it did survive long enough to by ripped to pices by those magnificent SSM Strikes.

I just love Collateral Damage - first break left to avoid Cho flak, then watch GTVA Shock and awe.

GTVA simply deserves to win.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 06, 2012, 11:54:58 am
I'm not exactly sure putting the fate of the Akula on a roulette was a smart move. The death of Akula via SSM was the best possible way to introduce this new and deadly weapon of the Tev arsenal to the player. It nearly made me jizz my pants when I saw it the first time.

Now, 75% of new players won't get that introduction, and I truly think it's a shame.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 06, 2012, 12:01:50 pm
Whatever the merits of the roulette system are, it's been like that since release. However there's room for debate as to whether the mission should be changed so that the Akula survives to the SSM strike every time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on January 06, 2012, 12:28:22 pm
Strange. I always lost it to the SSMs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 07, 2012, 04:31:37 am
Whatever the merits of the roulette system are, it's been like that since release. However there's room for debate as to whether the mission should be changed so that the Akula survives to the SSM strike every time.

And what would kill it? Serkr? Because it has to be lost, doesn't it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 07, 2012, 07:16:17 am
Whatever the merits of the roulette system are, it's been like that since release. However there's room for debate as to whether the mission should be changed so that the Akula survives to the SSM strike every time.

And what would kill it? Serkr? Because it has to be lost, doesn't it?
I think he meant survives long enough for the Tevs to send the SSM strike to finish her off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 07, 2012, 09:27:19 am
Indeed. Didn't read the 'to' in the sentence.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on January 07, 2012, 01:30:44 pm
I too much preferred the Akula getting torn apart by the SSM strike. Until I played the latest version I had no idea it could die any other way, in fact I assumed the point of that event was to show the player exactly how this new tactic worked. One of the most dramatic and cool parts of the game to be honest.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on January 07, 2012, 05:25:20 pm
Agreed. Although I always wondered why the GTVA never used a zillion SSMs at once ever again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 07, 2012, 07:54:29 pm
SSMs are triggered by TAG-C impacts. The Akula was swarmed by SSMs because it was swarmed by TAG-Cs in the first place. I don't think it happens to that extent anywhere else in the campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 07, 2012, 07:57:16 pm
If it would have happened, any missions with SSM strikes in them would be unplayable. SSMs are great tools, but using them too often would make the game really really frustrating.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 07, 2012, 08:49:35 pm
Yeah, they basically allow a fighter to fire swarms of hard-to-intercept bombs at a target (usually a capital ship).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on January 07, 2012, 09:48:45 pm
Ah yes, that would have been enraging.

But "The Tevs could kill all your caps at any time, but they won't because of balance" really isn't a very satisfying explanation. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 08, 2012, 12:25:34 am
Is 'SSM strikes are so expensive or logistically difficult you can only use them against strategically important targets' a better one?
I'm sure the Solaris, Eris and Toutatis have a SSM strike with their names on it.

The only other fault this weapon has is the initial delivery. Getting in range to fire the TAG-C is suicide against the flak screens of UEF warships.
Solution? TAG warhead on a Trebuchet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on January 08, 2012, 01:13:57 am
A little. But AFAIK the GTVA only pays for SSMs that reach stage 5. Oh wait, then there's the fighters that don't make it, the fighters' time, and the AWACS' time. Hrm, maybe.

The rate of fire of the Atreus' launchers might perhaps limit the effectiveness of SSMs, but that still leaves Collateral Damage as an upper bound. Maybe if the Atreus had to provide SSM support to many battles at once, then that would limit it further; although it's never made obvious that SSMs are being used anywhere but the current mission.

It still seemed way out of proportion to all other SSM strikes in the campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on January 08, 2012, 02:37:21 am
Well, logically an SSM would be many times larger than a standard torpedo, given the yield and the need of a subspace drive, they'd be gigantic for a missile.  The size of a fighter at least.  It'd be akin to tossing a WW2 era light destroyer x8 or 10.  That's a lot of hardware and it means they aren't gonna have a functionally unlimited supply of them, as opposed to whatever the cyclops equivalent is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 08, 2012, 03:32:21 am
Even the Narayanas Apocalypse torpedoes are bigger than most fighters and bombers, so I guess the SSMs are even bigger.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on January 08, 2012, 06:42:03 am
I think they use the Eos model, so they would be smaller.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on January 08, 2012, 02:17:26 pm
SSMs are the same size as standard ship-to-ship torpedoes because they have to be fired from the same launchers. The subspace drive cuts into their payload, which is why they do less damage. Except that they don't, so never mind.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 10, 2012, 04:51:46 am
What question is that. Hard or Insane are the only difficulties worth being played.

:beamz:

If that was the case, there wouldn't be five difficulty levels or the need to have the "same turret cooldown" flag.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 10, 2012, 05:03:14 am
Not my fault if :v: expected players to suck. That doesn't mean today's campaign makers have to :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: WouterSmitssm on January 10, 2012, 05:44:47 am
WHEN IS FINISHED BP WAR IN HEAVEN
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 10, 2012, 05:50:51 am
When it is done. Stop yelling.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: WouterSmitssm on January 10, 2012, 05:53:40 am
when is done and finished
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 10, 2012, 06:00:35 am
As stated numerous times, we can't tell you, because we do not know. Best guess right now is "sometime in 2012", but even that comes with a big question mark.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 10, 2012, 02:22:54 pm
Hurry uuuuuupp!  :(  :( :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 10, 2012, 04:14:25 pm
isn't that "you most make update" guy?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on January 10, 2012, 05:19:11 pm
Yes, it is he.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on January 11, 2012, 03:12:21 pm
Hey, can anyone confirm if Delenda Est is broken? The beam jamming doesn't seem to work anymore.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 11, 2012, 03:40:33 pm
I didn't notice any problems when I played through Delenda Est a few days ago. Which ships that weren't supposed to be able to fire their beams did so, and when?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 12, 2012, 03:01:54 pm
In my experience, the two Aeolus cruisers have a tendency to fire their beams.  Not really much of an issue, considering what the SGreen is like. 

Just throwing this out there: the Carthage looks awesome firing BBlues and TerSlashBlues.  I'm sure there's a reason it doesn't have them as standard, but it looks great.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 12, 2012, 06:02:10 pm
Yeah, I've noticed the Aeolus cruisers firing their beams as well. I interpret beam jamming as ECM against specific targeting systems, rather than blanket ECM against every direct-fire beam in the area. The Wargods know the stats on the SGreen, and assign their jamming accordingly. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 13, 2012, 10:22:38 am
Just throwing this out there: the Carthage looks awesome firing BBlues and TerSlashBlues.  I'm sure there's a reason it doesn't have them as standard, but it looks great.

It's a Combat Evaluation Unit destroyer, one of the few Orion-class destroyers that are spared the trip to the scrapyard and are instead retrofitted with the newest armaments. In addition to the new beam weapons it has, the Carthage also has a prototype subspace drive similar to the Atreus', allowing it to make quick, short-range jumps, as well as a reinforced hull that can shrug off significant damage from weapons of mass. It is probably not economical for the GTVA to retrofit every single Orion that survived the Second Shivan Incursion, but the Orion is a very rugged and durable design, which makes it a perfect vessel for the Alliance's engineers to slap on their new toys and see how they work on the field. At the very least, it's still better than using a Faustus cruiser to test things. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 13, 2012, 10:31:05 am
The Carthage doesn't mount and will never mount blue beams. Why ? because contrary to green beams, who were designed with compatibility with older power grids in mind (which is why you can see them mounted on Fenrises and stuff), blue beams were designed with and require the newer designs with newer meson-based power grids to operate. You just can't replace a green beam with a blue beam without changing the whole power grid and reactor system, and you'd be better at building the whole ship from scratch at that rate.

The issue is similar to Capella-era Vasudan beams. We know for example that the Typhon had power grid issues, whereas the Terran warships could mount green beams left and right with no trouble.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 13, 2012, 11:08:55 am
Well, that explains why Deimos corvettes still use the TerSlash...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rubixcube on January 15, 2012, 02:38:45 pm
I recently tried BP WIH with all FS2 era ships retrofitted with blue beams, the mod is actually still fairly balanced, sort of.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 15, 2012, 03:25:30 pm
Well, that explains why Deimos corvettes still use the TerSlash...
The Question remains, how difficult it is to change the powergrid and reactor of Deimos, which have yet to be built.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 15, 2012, 04:00:10 pm
It would be stupid. Deimoses are still built because they are efficient AND cheap and easy to maintain. Meson reactors and blue beams AREN'T cheap.

If you really want blue beams, you open your purse and build a true Diomedes or Chimera. There's no point in trying to adapt old designs with new tech when you already have new-gen ships fine-tuned for those.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on January 15, 2012, 04:08:35 pm
Ask the Vasudans how well refitting the typhons for beams worked out for them
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 15, 2012, 04:12:54 pm
Yeah, yeah, I know about the Typhon and so on and honestly, I just forget about the Diomedes, or the other new vets.
This is a rather personal thing, since I'm in love with the Deimos since I first played the game after it was released^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 15, 2012, 05:20:22 pm
Considering it's depicted on the cover of the box, even before playing FS2, in my case :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 15, 2012, 05:24:48 pm
Yeah, yeah, I know about the Typhon and so on and honestly, I just forget about the Diomedes, or the other new vets.
This is a rather personal thing, since I'm in love with the Deimos since I first played the game after it was released^^
Well, it's good that you love the Deimos. If you've ever seen the Sol Expeditionary Force picture I posted, you know that the Tevs can field what amounts to a wall of Deimos corvettes. The Buntu actually have probably twice as many again Sanctus cruisers (at the start of the WiH 1 campagin) but honestly 1 Deimos ~ 3 or 4 Sanctus cruisers, in terms of offensive capability.

Deimos corvettes function, if you want to think about it in terms of contemporary armies, as an IFV rather than an MBT. They're cheap(ish), flexible, can deal with smaller opponents, provide cover and fire support for infantry (fighters), guard more important units, carry out offensive operations against not so well defended targets, and the like.

Diomedes function more as Karunas - light carriers with frightening firepower, able to carry out small offensive campaigns all by themselves. A Diomedes stationed in the Kuiper belt could, for instance, launch squadron level attacks sporadically throughout the system without being detected, taking out, for instance, an upity Elder, while also being able to maul a Karuna in a close range battle. This is pure conjecture on my part, but given what we know of Tev vs Buntu technology, the Diomedes is most likely able to go much longer than the Karuna without resupply as well.

Chimeras basically exist to spearhead major offensives (with triple mounted heavy beams) and to defend high value targets (with pulse guns and 7 AAA guns, but are apparently not cheap, nor are they extremely flexible. They're a lot like MBTs really.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on January 16, 2012, 01:44:03 pm
Ok, I know MBT = Main Battle Tank, but, what is IFV?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 16, 2012, 01:52:43 pm
Let me wiki that for you... (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFV)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on January 16, 2012, 03:25:06 pm
Why you gotta snark?

IFV = Infantry Fighting Vehicle
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 18, 2012, 07:46:37 pm
Chances are the Karuna doesn't have much endurance at all.  It was built for what basically amounts to a one system counter-terrorist organisation.  It has no need to go a significant length of time without resupply, because resupply is a few minutes away at most.  This is probably true of most Fed ships, which would make the Agincourt just that much more useful for military purposes. 

The Diomedes, to me, just shows how much better the Tevs are at building front line warships.  Not to say the Feds are bad at it, but the GTVA can throw more firepower and the same amount of armor on a ship 2/3 the size of the Karuna.  Still, we're looking at a front-line warship with fighter launch capability versus a carrier with some decent anti-capital armament.  Kinda like the Russian versus American carrier design philosophy.  If the GTVA and UEF were to team up and design a warship...

Though I personally think Diomedes needs a new model.  The current one isn't bad, but it just isn't up to the same standards as the other ships.  Not too fond of the asymmetrical layout it's got going on, either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: yuezhi on January 18, 2012, 11:00:45 pm
they'd just end up with Solarises refitted with AAA beam point defenses. :drevil:
i know you're thinking about a new ship design but this is much cheaper.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 18, 2012, 11:48:11 pm
Eeh.  The Solaris is impressive, but I think it relies on its torpedoes more than GTVA ships rely on their beams.  At the end of Aristeia, the J.E. Hoover jams the Toutatis' torpedo targeting, and it was pretty much a sitting duck.

We know a Solaris kills a Raynor 1-vs-1, but I'm really curious about how a fight between a beam-jammed Raynor and a torpedo-jammed Solaris would turn out. The Raynor has its slash beams, its pulse cannons, and its Eos torpedoes.  Apart from its Apocalypse torpedo spam, what effective anti-capital weapons does the Solaris have?  A few gattler turrets? 

I really should try that out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 19, 2012, 03:00:10 am
I guess the few gattler turrets(a dozen to be correct) would pretty quick rob the Raynor of its 2 terslashblue and Sblue, while the flak screen of the Solaris should be able do deal with the few Eos the Raynor launches.
 My bet would be the Solaris...

Although one should think about launching more Eos torpedos at once.

And the Diomedes is a sweet ship, if used to harras enemy flanks, not the front lines.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 19, 2012, 03:05:42 am
Wasn't the Solaris armed with turret based mass drivers?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 19, 2012, 04:04:37 am
The Diomedes, to me, just shows how much better the Tevs are at building front line warships.
No it doesn't, at least not if you compare it to the original Karuna.
As you said yourself the original Karuna was build at a time, when the worst enemy was the Gaian Effort. So if you want to compare the Diomedes to a top of the line ship, I think the Karuna MK2 is a better candidate.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: WouterSmitssm on January 19, 2012, 04:58:27 am
Hows goinin with part 2 war in heaven
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 19, 2012, 05:09:15 am
It's going at a pretty steady rate.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 19, 2012, 05:25:17 am
Don't poke them.
When it's done, it's done.
I for my part can wait^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 19, 2012, 06:24:23 am
Wasn't the Solaris armed with turret based mass drivers?
Nope. The Solaris multiparts are equipped with a ship-to-ship version of fighter's Gattler autoguns, for anti-subsystem duty.

The Diomedes, to me, just shows how much better the Tevs are at building front line warships.
I'm pretty sure a Karuna is much cheaper than a Diomedes. Look how many of them the UEF managed to field just to fight a few pirates and terrorists. The Tevs can only build better warships than the UEF because their whole economy is oriented toward military production, which is the complete opposite of the UEF's strategy prior to the Reunion.

And even with their economy mostly oriented to military production, most of the Tev fleet is still made of inferior Capella-era warships. So I'd say the UEF is actually a more efficient warship builder by a significant margin.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: WouterSmitssm on January 19, 2012, 06:43:08 am
ok i hope this will be great campaign
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 19, 2012, 08:16:29 am
I guess the few gattler turrets(a dozen to be correct) would pretty quick rob the Raynor of its 2 terslashblue and Sblue, while the flak screen of the Solaris should be able do deal with the few Eos the Raynor launches.
 My bet would be the Solaris...

Although one should think about launching more Eos torpedos at once.

And the Diomedes is a sweet ship, if used to harras enemy flanks, not the front lines.

IIRC, flak cannot shoot down bombs.  i would assume this extends to BP's torpedos, but maybe the team changed this behavior?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 19, 2012, 08:43:12 am
Then there are still the PDS turrets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 19, 2012, 10:18:36 am
Flak can shoot bombs. They just have to hit the bomb directly with the flak projectile, not with the resulting explosion. Which doesn't exactly happen often, but can happen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 19, 2012, 10:53:47 am
There are a few flags available that can be used to make flak more efficient against bombs and torpedoes ("takes blast damage" and "takes shockwave damage" to be exact).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 19, 2012, 01:42:32 pm
The Diomedes, to me, just shows how much better the Tevs are at building front line warships.
I'm pretty sure a Karuna is much cheaper than a Diomedes. Look how many of them the UEF managed to field just to fight a few pirates and terrorists. The Tevs can only build better warships than the UEF because their whole economy is oriented toward military production, which is the complete opposite of the UEF's strategy prior to the Reunion.

And even with their economy mostly oriented to military production, most of the Tev fleet is still made of inferior Capella-era warships. So I'd say the UEF is actually a more efficient warship builder by a significant margin.

Although you forget two things:  1) the amount of Diomedes we see in theater is not all of them.  The amount of Karunas we see in theater is all of them.  GTVA has other systems to protect, too.  2) Sol had the economic powerhouse equal to the rest of the GTA combined at the end of FS1, and they didn't get *****-slapped by the Shivans again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 19, 2012, 02:02:00 pm
For shooting down enemy warheads (and strikecraft) the Solaris comes equiped with salvo-firing Point Defence turrets, in addition to the burst flaks.
And my bet would also be on the Solaris. Those Gattlers don't just do subsystem damage, they also do quite a bit of hull damage. I havn't looked at the stats, but from what I saw ingame, gattlers seem to be much better anti-ship weapons than pulse turrets and on top of that the Solaris has more gattlers than the Raynor has pulses.

Netreba wasn't worried about the torpedoes being jammed, because he would have lost the fight against the Hood. Without reinforcements the Hood would have been doomed against a torpedoless Solaris, much less against that AND two Karunas. The reson why he wanted this fight to end as quickly as possible was, that every second they stayed there, the chances of Tev reinforments showing up increased.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 19, 2012, 04:22:38 pm
Eeh.  The Solaris is impressive, but I think it relies on its torpedoes more than GTVA ships rely on their beams.  At the end of Aristeia, the J.E. Hoover jams the Toutatis' torpedo targeting, and it was pretty much a sitting duck.

We know a Solaris kills a Raynor 1-vs-1, but I'm really curious about how a fight between a beam-jammed Raynor and a torpedo-jammed Solaris would turn out. The Raynor has its slash beams, its pulse cannons, and its Eos torpedoes.  Apart from its Apocalypse torpedo spam, what effective anti-capital weapons does the Solaris have?  A few gattler turrets? 

I really should try that out.

It was also hinted by Battuta that an actual battle between the two in BP would not result in a be a completely one sided fight either; remember that the ships are essentially as tough as the mission demands.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 19, 2012, 11:37:33 pm
I ran it 5 times, and it isn't even a contest.  The Raynor kills the Solaris with between 65 and 85% health remaining.  With no beams whatsoever, it's a bit closer, but still a clear victory for the Raynor, being left with 30 - 60% health.  Pulse Cannons are definitely better than Gattler turrets.  The two ships were arranged side by side, and on the last 2 rounds, the Solaris was rolled 90 degrees.  Beam-wise, the Raynor only had one TerSlashBlue and one SBlue firing.

I'll add that not a single Eos managed to hit.  Those point defense guns are quite effective. 

The results are similar if you replace the Raynor with a Titan.  Bit closer, though.

The Titan actually does better than the Raynor if there's no jamming at all, provided it's actually in a position to use its frontal beams.  They'll often kill each other, with the Solaris' last volley killing the Titan from beyond the grave.   The Titan will typically survive if the Solaris' first missile barrage fails to knock out a BBlue.

I'm probably saying things the rest of you already know, but hopefully I'm contributing something.

Mars: oh, I know.  A test in a vacuum like this is already pretty flawed, because it doesn't take into account fighter screens and other variables.  Who wants a fair fight?

MatththeGeek: Perhaps the Diomedes is more expensive.  Wouldn't surprise me, since it's a pretty high-tech ship.  My point is that it's a much better anti-ship, er, ship, despite being 2/3 the size, and still has a fighter bay.  Whether the UEF military is more efficient with the resources it has is up for debate, but the former doesn't preclude the latter.  The UEF could be more efficient with its capital ship designs, but GTVA ones are generally superior, performance-wise.

-Norbert-: I agree.  I doubt Calder was really worried about a couple TerSlashes.  My point was that the Solaris can have its torpedoes jammed, and when that happens, it's a sitting duck for anything with some decent firepower.  Who's to say the GTVA won't do it in the future?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 20, 2012, 03:40:43 am
Laportes trigger finger says they won't succed for long even if they try it :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on January 20, 2012, 03:55:22 am
Hmm, the difference between beam jamming and torpedo jamming is that torpedo's can be dumbfired.  I doubt a beam can be.  Particularly if they are at knife-fight range.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 20, 2012, 05:07:27 am
Not so much particularly, but pretty much only at knife-fight range, due to the way the launchers are positioned on the Solaris. They fire straight up and down, so they could only hit if the enemy is "above" or "below" it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 20, 2012, 06:29:34 am
Dumb-firing VLS torpedoes isn't exactly convenient. That wouldn't be the case of multipart-mounted Eos/Supernova launchers on Raynors/Titans, but the UEF has other jamming priorities on those ships anyway, right ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 20, 2012, 07:27:59 am
Hmm, the difference between beam jamming and torpedo jamming is that torpedo's can be dumbfired.  I doubt a beam can be.  Particularly if they are at knife-fight range.
Serkr Team fired just fine in Aristeia.  Delenda Est also showed standard beams can lock on to TAG beacons through jamming, and there's no UEF equivalent for those.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 20, 2012, 11:38:52 am
Just because we didn't see it in WiH1 doesn't mean they don't have them, or can't make them.
Also there was only this one instance in the whole campaign, where the GTVA jammed UEF weapons, so it's likely they got caught off-guard, just like the Serkr team got caught off guard when the UEF jammed their beams for the first time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Insomniac34 on January 21, 2012, 12:53:31 pm
I have a problem where when my Maul runs out of energy, the energy recharges but the weapon stops working for the remainder of the mission. Any ideas?

thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 21, 2012, 01:09:37 pm
This is a known (and fixed) bug in 3.6.14RC3. Revert to 3.6.14RC2, or wait for 3.6.14 final.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 21, 2012, 08:07:03 pm
I am having trouble with BP2: I get a huge error message whenever I try to load the campaign. For example, it says "Invalid subsystem name," or <no module>!<no symbol>. Please help!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on January 21, 2012, 09:43:24 pm
I am having trouble with BP2: I get a huge error message whenever I try to load the campaign. For example, it says "Invalid subsystem name," or <no module>!<no symbol>. Please help!

Give us a Debug log (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.msg1180359#msg1180359).

Welcome to HLP!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 21, 2012, 10:07:28 pm
Also there was only this one instance in the whole campaign, where the GTVA jammed UEF weapons, so it's likely they got caught off-guard, just like the Serkr team got caught off guard when the UEF jammed their beams for the first time.


If the UEF can figure out a way to 'override' the GTVA's torpedo jamming, then it might also be possible for the GTVA to figure out a way to 'override' the UEF's beam jamming I would think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 22, 2012, 03:54:24 am
I agree. It might end up as jamming/anti-jamming contests between the AWACS', or a match of "the first to lose the AWACS, loses the battle".
In a way the GTVA already did override the jamming in Delenda Est, by "painting" the UEF AWACS and enabling the Carthage to hit it. Not a perfect soluion, but it worked.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 22, 2012, 06:22:37 am
It's not a "it might", it's already the case. Whatever is the process involved in beam jamming and torpedo jamming, it belongs to electronic warfare in a similar way to communication jamming, as strongly hinted by the ingame dialogues. And indeed, the Hood and its AWACS manages to briefly break through the UEF beam jamming in Aristeia if your cruisers aren't destroyed fast enough.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on January 22, 2012, 06:24:47 am
Well with the advent of things like Home On Jam capabilities with targeting systems, ECM as a countermeasure is only ever a temporary one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 22, 2012, 09:34:45 am
isn't home on jam rather easily defeated by cycling ECM off and  back on?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on January 22, 2012, 10:10:35 am
I'd assume so, but any drop in ECM cover provided by say, an AWACS would allow weapons that require a lock for employment, like beam weapons etc a chance to acquire lock. I don't know if it's possible to cycle the status of ECM fast enough to nullify HOJ targeting, but if it is, there's evidence like MTG brought up earlier that the GTVA may be able to break through the jamming through sustained effort of some sort.

Either way, I don't really know enough to comment definitely on the issue but I'm sure for at least some types of jamming that HOJ is an option, if albeit one that's easily countered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 22, 2012, 12:01:11 pm
I am having trouble with BP2: I get a huge error message whenever I try to load the campaign. For example, it says "Invalid subsystem name," or <no module>!<no symbol>. Please help!

Give us a Debug log (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.msg1180359#msg1180359).

Welcome to HLP!

Here is my debug log

[attachment deleted by a ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jeff Vader on January 22, 2012, 12:03:11 pm
1.
Code: [Select]
C:\Program Files (x86)\GOG.com\Freespace 2\Please move your \Freespace 2\ directory to something like C:\games\freespace2\ or something. Program files may be a problematic location, not to mention too long file paths.

2.
Code: [Select]
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 640x480 with 16-bit color...Please open the Video tab of the Launcher. There, set your resolution to at least 1024x768 (preferably the maximum resolution supported by your monitor) and colors to 32-bit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 22, 2012, 01:49:04 pm
1.
Code: [Select]
C:\Program Files (x86)\GOG.com\Freespace 2\Please move your \Freespace 2\ directory to something like C:\games\freespace2\ or something. Program files may be a problematic location, not to mention too long file paths.

2.
Code: [Select]
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 640x480 with 16-bit color...Please open the Video tab of the Launcher. There, set your resolution to at least 1024x768 (preferably the maximum resolution supported by your monitor) and colors to 32-bit.

Your advice certainly made the menu and font size different! I'm still having the same error, though. Here is another debug log.

[attachment deleted by a ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 22, 2012, 02:11:31 pm
Two things: One. You are not using a 3.6.14 build. Two. Your BP:WiH vp files are out of date.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 22, 2012, 03:56:24 pm
Two things: One. You are not using a 3.6.14 build. Two. Your BP:WiH vp files are out of date.

Okay. I got the 3.6.14 build and BP:WiH is updating via Freespace Open Installer. Should I download the Main Shaders for 3.6.14 as well, and if so, where should I place it and what should I do with it?

Update: It still isn't working. I got a shorter error message, but that's it. Here is another different debug log.

[attachment deleted by a ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 22, 2012, 04:14:48 pm
You should not use the installer, use the direct downloads instead.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 22, 2012, 04:17:24 pm
*sigh*

How do people still even manage to gain access to the installer ? I thought we removed it from all the tutos !

Also, why do people ask for help BEFORE looking at relevant stickies...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on January 22, 2012, 04:55:05 pm
*sigh*

How do people still even manage to gain access to the installer ? I thought we removed it from all the tutos !
But it is still linked at the top of every page...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on January 22, 2012, 05:21:22 pm
1.
Code: [Select]
C:\Program Files (x86)\GOG.com\Freespace 2\Please move your \Freespace 2\ directory to something like C:\games\freespace2\ or something. Program files may be a problematic location, not to mention too long file paths.

I've had FS2 in Program files for the last decade, never caused a problem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on January 22, 2012, 05:53:56 pm
1.
Code: [Select]
C:\Program Files (x86)\GOG.com\Freespace 2\Please move your \Freespace 2\ directory to something like C:\games\freespace2\ or something. Program files may be a problematic location, not to mention too long file paths.

I've had FS2 in Program files for the last decade, never caused a problem.

Decade implies XP. Vista and 7 are more parinoid about it then XP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 23, 2012, 02:20:22 pm
A thought/question on tactical strategy for the final chapter of BP:


Perhaps surprisingly, we didn't see a destroyer (on either side) get destroyed in War in Heaven.  I would almost be willing to be that will change in the next part.

The UEF obviously has a strategy for attacking destroyers, and I have a feeling at least one GTVA destroyer will be lost (though I still hope the GTVA wins :)).  However, I also have a feeling at least one of the Solaris-class destroyers will be destroyed as well.  Assuming at least one Solaris gets destroyed, how do you think the GTVA will go about it?

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 23, 2012, 02:41:35 pm
I think beams will be involved.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on January 23, 2012, 04:20:43 pm
i would think bombers would be in the fight also, but probably not the deciding factor.  UEF fighters and point defenses will rape them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 23, 2012, 04:49:21 pm
Please tell me the Solaris goes boom, along with Byrne who valiantly tried to abandon ship at the first sign of beam fire.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 23, 2012, 05:16:27 pm

I've had FS2 in Program files for the last decade, never caused a problem.

Decade implies XP. Vista and 7 are more parinoid about it then XP.

Incorrect.

C:\Program Files (x86)\GOG.com\Freespace 2

I'm on windows 7.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on January 23, 2012, 08:51:13 pm

I've had FS2 in Program files for the last decade, never caused a problem.

Decade implies XP. Vista and 7 are more parinoid about it then XP.

Incorrect.
C:\Program Files (x86)\GOG.com\Freespace 2

I'm on windows 7.

Incorrect. Win7 (without pure administrative privleges) WILL be paranoid about files writen to Program Files/(x86). Don't belive me? Go ask on IRC, C:\games\ is always the suggested location. Just because you do it wrong and get away with it does not make the right way incorrect.

I should know, I tend to get away with doing it wrong all the time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on January 24, 2012, 03:23:59 am
You can manually alter FS2 folder permissions to grant normal user more permissions that he/she otherwise would for any folder under Program Files. That way you get away with stricter Vista/7 permissions. Of course, there may be times when whitespaces or special characters in the folder name will cause issues. I did encounter such problems with some old version of the launcher which crapped out, the bug was fixed later. Also stumbled upon too long file paths on more than one occasion. But since most people are oblivious about such things, it gets easier to just tell them to use C:\Games instead.

Assuming at least one Solaris gets destroyed, how do you think the GTVA will go about it?
Here's a hint. Put a single Solaris in an empty mission and then two Chimeras and one Bellerophon (same as the infamous Sekr team) and let them face the Solaris within range of their beams. See what happens.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 24, 2012, 03:49:53 am
The Diomedes, to me, just shows how much better the Tevs are at building front line warships.

A front-line warship that has next to no forward-firing armaments.

Riiiiight...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 24, 2012, 04:17:54 am
The Diomedes, to me, just shows how much better the Tevs are at building front line warships.

A front-line warship that has next to no forward-firing armaments.

Riiiiight...

I have no idea where you got the idea that front-line = front-firing.  It's just quite simply not true.

A Diomedes will rock a Karuna's world much more easily and in more varied situations than the reverse, all while still sporting a fighter complement and is able to sustain operations for weeks without major resupply.  If that isn't a clearly superior front line ship I'm afraid we've got vastly different definitions of what "superior" means.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 24, 2012, 10:51:51 am
A front-line warship that has next to no forward-firing armaments.

Riiiiight...

Because in war, the enemy will only ever attack from the front.

A Diomedes can fight two Karunas with a good chance of winning.  A Chimera will have a much harder time.  Why?  Because the Diomedes is not only much better equipped for close range fights, but its beam cannons are much harder to hit.  All it has to do to fight a target directly in front is to pitch forward, and then it's got 3, maybe even all 4 TerSlashBlues firing, which is more firepower than the Chimera can bring to bear.

Its point defenses aren't all that good, but it has a fighter bay, so can carry its own fighter escort.  It's a much better ship than the Deimos, and definitely better at fighting other capital ships than the Karuna is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 24, 2012, 12:09:22 pm
And I ask again, would a barrel rolling Diomedes have even a meaner punch?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 24, 2012, 12:21:41 pm
You can already point all four TerSlashBlues on a single target if you're positioned correctly. Basically, the target has to be somewhere on top of you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 24, 2012, 01:03:32 pm
I tried to make a mission once, that involved a disabled Diomedes, and eventually, a Karuna jumping in on top of it. . .

I couldn't balance it - even with the armor at HA20, the Diomedes would take out the Karuna before the Karuna had managed to take more than a couple of % off of the (LA100) Diomedes. This was after over a squadron of bombers had spent the mission targeting those beam cannons.

Anything that is remotely over the Diomedes will get shredded in short order. The Karuna will peck things to death slowly when it's about 2km further away, which isn't as much of an advantage as you'd think.

If you've ever played The Darkest Hour very often, you know how often the Valarie ends up killing the Wargods before they ever exist.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 24, 2012, 02:52:58 pm
Continuing my line of thought  on the 'guesstimation' that the UEF will lose at least one Solaris destroyer in the final part of BP; which destroyer do you think will be the first to be lost?  I.e., which UEF admiral will bite the dust first?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on January 24, 2012, 03:54:22 pm
My guess would be Calder.

Byrne's secret project will probably ensure he's needed plotwise, and his 1st fleet is probably in the best condition of all 3.

Netreba has received the least amount of characterization out of all 3 admirals, so I feel that his death would have the least amount of impact if he were to be killed off. He's also got the remainder of the 2nd fleet at his disposal.

Calder's obsession with revenge against Steele and the decimation of his 3rd fleet make him prime material for kamikaze/going-down-with-the-ship situations, and he has the least amount of fleet assets to provide protection.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 24, 2012, 05:22:44 pm
And without Jupiter to protect, 3rdJRF can be completely committed to offensive operations, so the Toutatis would be more often at risk.  Calder's also quite competent, so I can see Steele wanting to remove him as a threat.  His death would probably inflict an absolutely massive blow to UEF morale.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 24, 2012, 05:51:10 pm
Or, depending on the way he died, spur them into fighting harder, maybe even draw first fleet out of their defensive position into a massive offense. Killing enemy leaders always carries the risk of creating martyrs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 24, 2012, 06:18:09 pm
Or, depending on the way he died, spur them into fighting harder, maybe even draw first fleet out of their defensive position into a massive offense. Killing enemy leaders always carries the risk of creating martyrs.

Killing the Elder didn't manage it, I doubt it'll work with an Admiral.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 25, 2012, 01:02:26 am
Or, depending on the way he died, spur them into fighting harder, maybe even draw first fleet out of their defensive position into a massive offense. Killing enemy leaders always carries the risk of creating martyrs.

Killing the Elder didn't manage it, I doubt it'll work with an Admiral.
It worked well enough to trigger the events of Delenda Est.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 25, 2012, 04:57:04 am
You can already point all four TerSlashBlues on a single target if you're positioned correctly. Basically, the target has to be somewhere on top of you.

In that case, wouldn't the Diomedes would be quite a terror if it was placed right in the middle of a battlefield or somewhere below it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 25, 2012, 05:03:10 am
Watch the WiH intro. The Diomedes demonstrates its abilities in fleet action pretty well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on January 25, 2012, 05:26:33 am
I've flown the Dio in a fleet battle (with unmodified stats), plop it between 2 karuna in a broadside and watch as the UEF takes a few seconds to wonder where their ships went. Its not a joke, the Dio can deliver some serious punishment if you let it get in the right spot. It does need help getting there though as a Karuna is fully capable of putting a Dio in the red zone in a one on one starting 6k apart.

Its powerful, but its not something that can just do the job on its own.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 25, 2012, 06:51:44 am
Or, depending on the way he died, spur them into fighting harder, maybe even draw first fleet out of their defensive position into a massive offense. Killing enemy leaders always carries the risk of creating martyrs.

Killing the Elder didn't manage it, I doubt it'll work with an Admiral.
That is an argument that works both for making the UEF fight harder or making them give up.
The UEF didn't fall into a collective berzerker rage, but neither did they all collectively fall down on their knees overwhelmed with hopelessness, though as MattTheGeek already pointed out, some UEF members did indeed start to fight all the harder in response to the assasination.

There is also the incremental effect to consider. The death of the Elder doesn't go away, just because the Admiral also died. Those two events together will have a greater effect - no matter if positive or negative - than each event on it's own would have had.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 25, 2012, 09:24:38 am
And, as Norbert said, it depends on how he dies. If the Toutatis goes down fighting, maybe even securing a Pyrrhic victory for the UEF, the effect will be much different than if Calder is killed in an escape pod like a chump.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on January 25, 2012, 10:55:34 am
And, as Norbert said, it depends on how he dies. If the Toutatis goes down fighting, maybe even securing a Pyrrhic victory for the UEF, the effect will be much different than if Calder is killed in an escape pod like a chump.
You think someone like Calder would flee? Calder?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 25, 2012, 11:43:05 am
Dragged from the bridge by someone who would believe that a living Calder is better then a dead Toutatis and a dead Calder?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 25, 2012, 12:24:28 pm
Or knocked unconscious by an explosion and then evacuated by the medics.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 25, 2012, 02:02:41 pm
Or, depending on the way he died, spur them into fighting harder, maybe even draw first fleet out of their defensive position into a massive offense. Killing enemy leaders always carries the risk of creating martyrs.

Surely though if there's a chance to take out a Solaris the GTVA should go for it, even if it might create some martyrdom right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 25, 2012, 03:07:35 pm
Suddenly POP the UEF can't field any fighters worth speaking of any longer. Solaris would take 192 or so pilots down with it, out of a fleet that at the BEGINNING of WiH only fielded 996 fighters on mobile bases, and they're low on pilots already. Although it might hurt the political situation, the UEF would suddenly be left with a large chunk missing from its deterrence force and struggling to put people in fighters.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 25, 2012, 03:35:51 pm
Several things:

1) not all pilots die when shot down.  Some eject.
2) not all fighters would be shot down before the Solaris goes down.
3) not all fighters would stay around and die after it does.
4) not all pilots get to fly fighters at the same time, and the number of pilots relative to the number of fighters isn't 1:1.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 25, 2012, 03:37:27 pm
True enough, but it would still be a 'significant victory' indeed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 25, 2012, 05:23:24 pm
That depends on what the GTVA loses in the process, but in most cases yes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 26, 2012, 07:53:04 am
Dragged from the bridge by someone who would believe that a living Calder is better then a dead Toutatis and a dead Calder?

I'd definitely punch him out and shove him into an Escape Pod, he's the best UEF Admiral.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: n3rdherder on January 26, 2012, 05:09:46 pm
Im having trouble with WiH and cant play it. Keeps coming up with bp2-wep.tbm error: Missing required token in weapon: shockwave effect, error in weapon trebuchet#Aegis and others. I've re-downloaded the files but they keep coming up like this. Could Someone help please?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 26, 2012, 05:16:23 pm
Please read the FAQ: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.0

Use the information therein to generate and post an fs2_open.log here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 26, 2012, 10:55:21 pm
And, as Norbert said, it depends on how he dies. If the Toutatis goes down fighting, maybe even securing a Pyrrhic victory for the UEF, the effect will be much different than if Calder is killed in an escape pod like a chump.


It would also depend on how the escape pod is killed.  Even if a UEF admiral flees in the escape pod and a GTVA pilot shoots it down, the UEF would be enraged and say he was killed 'in cold blood'.  If on the other hand, the escape pod gets destroyed in the Solaris explosion, then there probably wouldn't be any extra martyrdom attached to him.

Concerning the first part of your explanation, just to play devil's advocate:  if the admiral goes down fighting in a Solaris, but it's the GTVA that achieves at least a Pyrrihic victory, there probably won't be any major extra amounts of rage/martyrdom to draw on.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 27, 2012, 04:53:18 am
People don't get their sensibilities offended that logically. They don't even get that kind of information freely, generally.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 27, 2012, 08:53:17 am
But that really depends on the place of the engagement. If it happens in deep space and the soldiers who witnessed the whole thing keep quiet, then the information can be controlled at will, but if the soldiers spill it back to the other elements of the fleet, it's almost unavoidable that the news spreads into the general population.
And if the fight happens in Earth or Mars orbit, there's as good as no chance to keep the whole truth under seal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordMelvin on January 27, 2012, 10:57:20 am
If it happens in deep space and the soldiers [...] keep quiet...
I think it's safe to say that the only way that'll happen is if they're dead before they get back to base. Because even before they get to the closest purveyor of inebriatistitude (Which is a real word, when you're inebriatistated...) they'll be chatting with the guys on the base - heck, confine 'em to prevent spreading the news, and whoever's guarding 'em will know and/or overhear and/or find out why, and then when one of those guards tells their fiancee, who tells the reporter they've been shtupping on the side, you've got something worse, public opinion-wise: you've got the rumor-mill at its worst, with a cover-up into the mix...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Charismatic on January 28, 2012, 08:49:31 pm
Iv just beat BP1 and it was amazing. I downloaded everything for BP2.

I dont have the "fs2_open 3.6.14 and latest launcher", because I thought that 3.6.12 was the latest official build?
When i click the link for 3.6.14 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=79332.0) I am not sure if i should get it because the post claims its irrelevant?

Do I need it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 28, 2012, 09:06:57 pm
I believe that you will need 3.6.14 RC4 in order to play the most recent release of bp2 - get it here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=79747.msg1579226#msg1579226
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on January 28, 2012, 09:41:14 pm
I have a question:  How were the sounds in WiH made/gotten?  Specifically the massdriver/archer/gauss gun sounds, and the other primaries. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on January 28, 2012, 11:46:15 pm
Iv just beat BP1 and it was amazing. I downloaded everything for BP2.

I dont have the "fs2_open 3.6.14 and latest launcher", because I thought that 3.6.12 was the latest official build?
When i click the link for 3.6.14 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=79332.0) I am not sure if i should get it because the post claims its irrelevant?

Do I need it?

Yes, you need at least 3.6.14 RC1. At this point you may as well just get RC4 and the earlier ones are out dated now anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Charismatic on January 29, 2012, 01:46:23 am
Thanks everyone for their replies and help!
Anyone else crashing at various points in mission 1?
I crashed at one point at the beginning, right at the middle during the main fight when the music changes, and then finally after a third try, right as i began jumping out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on January 29, 2012, 01:50:45 am
Give us a debug log (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=56279.msg1180359#msg1180359).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 06:50:49 am
But why would the GTVA want to attack either Solaris escapes me. They would have to deploy a significant destroyer to the engagement and risk losing it too. Why not just nibble at the rest of the fleet (without much casualties on their side) and leave the 3 big boys to fend for themselves. You know let them be destroyed internally (by logistical depletion).


BTW: Let me take the opportunity to say that the GTVA is just an over-pampered pile of ****.  :doubt:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 29, 2012, 07:06:15 am
But why would the GTVA want to attack either Solaris escapes me. They would have to deploy a significant destroyer to the engagement and risk losing it too.
You could hardly be wronger. Try to pit the Solaris against Serkr team, or a couple of Diomedes and Deimoses, with bomber support, and you'll see why you don't need destroyers to finish the job.

It's the same logic that guided the UEF in sending the Wargods instead of one of their desties to face the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 29, 2012, 07:09:27 am
Aye, just pinpoint the location of one Solaris and then send in a Hunter-Killer group.
If they have jump drives akin to those of the Carthage or Atreus, they could even escape with minor damage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 07:14:28 am
But why would the GTVA want to attack either Solaris escapes me. They would have to deploy a significant destroyer to the engagement and risk losing it too.
You could hardly be wronger. Try to pit the Solaris against Serkr team, or a couple of Diomedes and Deimoses, with bomber support, and you'll see why you don't need destroyers to finish the job.

It's the same logic that guided the UEF in sending the Wargods instead of one of their desties to face the Carthage.

I know, but either Solaris would not be alone. The UEF would have half the frikkin fleet for relief in no time (not to mention another Solaris)! Kiss Serkr team goodbye! The Solaris decimates a Raynor Head-on and still live to tell the tale. Its not some pushover tin-can (like most of the Tev destroyers)...

Sorry for my burst of outrage there...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 07:18:14 am
Aye, just pinpoint the location of one Solaris and then send in a Hunter-Killer group.
If they have jump drives akin to those of the Carthage or Atreus, they could even escape with minor damage.

And what prevents the Solaris from warping out?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on January 29, 2012, 07:22:01 am
Aye, just pinpoint the location of one Solaris and then send in a Hunter-Killer group.
If they have jump drives akin to those of the Carthage or Atreus, they could even escape with minor damage.

And what prevents the Solaris from warping out?
To sum it up: And what prevents the Solaris from already having a nice escort?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 07:40:08 am
Aye, just pinpoint the location of one Solaris and then send in a Hunter-Killer group.
If they have jump drives akin to those of the Carthage or Atreus, they could even escape with minor damage.

And what prevents the Solaris from warping out?
To sum it up: And what prevents the Solaris from already having a nice escort?

Yeah, I mean since all three Solarises are very high priority command carriers... I doubt the UEF will leave them just lying around unescorted. Surely they will have a considerable escort and fighter cover. Maybe that's why the GTVA haven't tried hurting them till now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 29, 2012, 07:51:45 am
They are high priority targets, we all now that.
But we also know, that for the run on the Carthage three frigs were waisted, so they are no longer a threat.
For this huge ambush, the UEF had to use a major part of second and third fleet and I highly doubt that they had the assets to bind the Impervious even if they had known the carrier was still in system.
This takes us to the argument of the escorts untill first fleet don't kick their asses into overdrive, the Tevs will most certainly simply pount the third and then the second fleet to dust.
A single Karuna Mk2 won't make a difference.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 08:02:53 am
They are high priority targets, we all now that.
But we also know, that for the run on the Carthage three frigs were waisted, so they are no longer a threat.
For this huge ambush, the UEF had to use a major part of second and third fleet and I highly doubt that they had the assets to bind the Impervious even if they had known the carrier was still in system.
This takes us to the argument of the escorts untill first fleet don't kick their asses into overdrive, the Tevs will most certainly simply pount the third and then the second fleet to dust.
A single Karuna Mk2 won't make a difference.

But during the events of Delenda Est, while the Federation lost only 3 Frigs, 2 Cruisers and 1 AWACS and say 2~3 wings. The GTVA lost a hell lotta fighters (maybe 5~6 squadrons) 4 Corvettes, 3 Cruisers. That totals to a lot of ships! just to waste a few frigs?

I feel that the Imperieuse was waiting for the Destroyers to show up, but decided to go for the kill anyways..
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 29, 2012, 08:11:31 am
It was a trap.
Assuming that the escorts of the Carthage would jump out, Steele didn't care about the fighters, 'cause he got the numbers and while he lost many strikecraft, the Feds lost three frigs and their strikecraft too, while the Indus was severly damaged, so she is out of the game too for a while.
And Steele? We don't know for sure, but I would bet neither he nor Serkr have sustained heavy damage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 29, 2012, 08:17:15 am
But during the events of Delenda Est, while the Federation lost only 3 Frigs, 2 Cruisers and 1 AWACS and say 2~3 wings. The GTVA lost a hell lotta fighters (maybe 5~6 squadrons) 4 Corvettes, 3 Cruisers. That totals to a lot of ships! just to waste a few frigs?
You don't know that. As said multiple times already, there were engagements all over the system. The Federation could have lost many other assets somewhere else in addition to the loss of the Wargods.
The GTVA lost many ships and fighters ? They don't care, they eliminated the only UEF task force that, in 18 months, managed the feat of striking back and do any significant sort of damage to the Tev war machine. The result of the engagement might be even militarily-wise, the Tevs scored a major point in term of morale and, after 18 months of war, that is worth as much as a whole destroyer battlegroup.

EDIT: not to mention that we don't know what happened to the disabled warships of the Carthage battlegroup. Steele could have prepared contingencies for that event and kept ships in reserve to rescue them.

I feel that the Imperieuse was waiting for the Destroyers to show up, but decided to go for the kill anyways..
Excepted that the Toutatis did show up, it was even engaged and significantly damaged by elements of Serkr team. I'm pretty sure the Carthage engagement was a higher priority because, instead of killing a destroyer, it could there save a destroyer and deal a major blow to the UEF morale by wiping out their prized taskforce.

This is Steele we're talking about here. He's not the kind of man that only consider the purely military aspects of a war. With the Imperieuse surprise, he clearly demonstrated his superior tactical skills. I don't think the UEF morale has ever been lower than at that point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 08:27:19 am

Excepted that the Toutatis did show up, it was even engaged and significantly damaged by elements of Serkr team.

When did the Toutatis show up during Delenda Est... Neither in the Credits!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 29, 2012, 08:34:14 am
...as said MULTIPLE times, you only see a small part of what happened during the events of Delenda Est. Your engagement was only the critical part of a system-large scale attack on Tev positions, in order to prevent as many Tev assets as possible from disrupting the attack on the Carthage.

As such, (and I've just been confirmed that by The_E), the Eris (I mixed the two desties in my earlier post) was keeping the rest of Serkr busy, while the Toutatis was going toe-to-toe with the Atreus. You can bet 2nd or 3rd fleet elements were busy with the Hood and the rest of the Tev battlegroups too.

EDIT: extract from DE's briefing:
Quote
We're not fighting alone. Our attack on the $r Carthage is the centerpiece of a huge strategic push. Admiral Calder and Admiral Netreba are posturing their artillery near Jupiter to keep the $r Atreus and its battle group tied down. The $r Hood is still undergoing repairs from the thrashing we gave it, and our source says the $r Imperieuse is still in Delta Serpentis resupplying from the Blitz.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 29, 2012, 08:38:41 am

Excepted that the Toutatis did show up, it was even engaged and significantly damaged by elements of Serkr team.

When did the Toutatis show up during Delenda Est... Neither in the Credits!

It's happening offscreen. Remember that WiH uses a very focused perspective by sticking close to Laporte at nearly all times. Just because Laporte doesn't see something happening doesn't mean it isn't happening. See also: http://www.moddb.com/mods/blue-planet-war-in-heaven/news/release-2-preview
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 08:55:04 am
...as said MULTIPLE times, you only see a small part of what happened during the events of Delenda Est. Your engagement was only the critical part of a system-large scale attack on Tev positions, in order to prevent as many Tev assets as possible from disrupting the attack on the Carthage.

As such, (and I've just been confirmed that by The_E), the Eris (I mixed the two desties in my earlier post) was keeping the rest of Serkr busy, while the Toutatis was going toe-to-toe with the Atreus. You can bet 2nd or 3rd fleet elements were busy with the Hood and the rest of the Tev battlegroups too.

EDIT: extract from DE's briefing:
Quote
We're not fighting alone. Our attack on the $r Carthage is the centerpiece of a huge strategic push. Admiral Calder and Admiral Netreba are posturing their artillery near Jupiter to keep the $r Atreus and its battle group tied down. The $r Hood is still undergoing repairs from the thrashing we gave it, and our source says the $r Imperieuse is still in Delta Serpentis resupplying from the Blitz.

Damn. The UEF is in really bad shape, isn't it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 29, 2012, 08:57:23 am
They've been fighting a loosing war for 18 months, one of their three fleets is in shambles, the only task force that managed to strike back was wiped out in a single, masterly orchestrated trap, and they're a few weeks/months from complete logistical collapse.

So, what else is not new ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2012, 11:41:31 am
They've been fighting a loosing war for 18 months, one of their three fleets is in shambles, the only task force that managed to strike back was wiped out in a single, masterly orchestrated trap, and they're a few weeks/months from complete logistical collapse.

So, what else is not new ?

I still rooting for a UEF win though!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 29, 2012, 11:52:34 am
Bah.  Buntu pacifist.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 29, 2012, 12:04:07 pm
Bah. Tev murderer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on January 29, 2012, 12:26:20 pm
Bah.  Buntu pacifist.
Bleh. Tev warmonger. All I say.

It would be a to obvious conclusion if the GT(V)A just wins the war. Something cool is going to happen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 30, 2012, 01:21:25 am
Bah.  Buntu pacifist.
Bleh. Tev warmonger. All I say.

 :yes:

It would be a to obvious conclusion if the GT(V)A just wins the war. Something cool is going to happen.

Amen to that!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 30, 2012, 02:25:16 pm
My guess would be Calder.

Byrne's secret project will probably ensure he's needed plotwise, and his 1st fleet is probably in the best condition of all 3.

Netreba has received the least amount of characterization out of all 3 admirals, so I feel that his death would have the least amount of impact if he were to be killed off. He's also got the remainder of the 2nd fleet at his disposal.

Calder's obsession with revenge against Steele and the decimation of his 3rd fleet make him prime material for kamikaze/going-down-with-the-ship situations, and he has the least amount of fleet assets to provide protection.

I'll take a slightly different track.

I agree that Byrne will be kept around for plot reasons (whoever wins in the end).  However, since Calder seems like the 'obvious' choice to bite the dust first, I think that it will actually be Netreba.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on January 31, 2012, 05:22:24 am
BTW: Let me take the opportunity to say that the GTVA is just an over-pampered pile of ****.  :doubt:

:snipe:

They are crazy prepared. Dealing with the destroyers of the universe twice in a hundred years would do that to anybody.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 31, 2012, 08:56:51 am
BTW: Let me take the opportunity to say that the GTVA is just an over-pampered pile of ****.  :doubt:

:snipe:

They are crazy prepared. Dealing with the destroyers of the universe twice in a hundred years would do that to anybody.

I know but they are very (excessively so) well funded and supplied. And they have *absolutely* no pinch for any of their losses. Just take a look at Delenda Est, The GTVA lost 5~6 squadrons EASILY, plus 5 capitals if you go for the kill. Now if the Imperieuse was in-system waiting for the wargods and if Steele had any moral sense, He could have easily deployed the Imperieuse earlier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 31, 2012, 09:41:50 am
As was stated, Steele doesn't care about the squadrons.
And the Imp appeared, when she could do the maximum damage, 'cause the Frigs had received a serious pounding.
I doubt that a simple shock jump at all four frigates even if their ECM was down at this point would've succeeded, 'cause for all four Frigs it would take the Imp 2 minutes, and I guess, that when the first Frig goes down, the beams would be soon follow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 31, 2012, 11:18:48 am
Could it be that Steele is even glad to be rid of those pilots?
They were after all very loyal to Lopez and she to them. And Lopez did have problems with the way Steele is leading the war. In short Steele might consider Lopez a bit too great a risk, so he's limiting her influence, without appearing to do so. Not necessarily because he mistrusts her, but it's better to be save than sorry.

Now that the Carthage lost pretty much all her pilots, he can move some of his own people into the vacant positions, to keep a closer eye on Lopez in addition to getting rid of pilots that were more loyal to Lopez than to him.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 31, 2012, 11:40:28 am
Lopez's loyalty to the GTVA in Delenda Est despite her critical situation, cloudy orders and no knowledge of the Imperieuse trap, shows that Steele would be wrong to distrust her. Steele isn't the kind of man who would fail to judge people under his command to that point. Besides, he knows that her battlegroup and the crews and pilot under her command are among the most skilled of the whole GTVA, and he even tells her "You are one of the finest officers I have ever had the pleasure to command. You make your ships perform in ways that I probably could not manage at my finest.".

Steele has contingencies for contingencies, but not to the point of seeing the devil everywhere. He's careful, not paranoid. Lopez and her fleet are too great an asset for his victory in the Sol theater for him to threw them away just for a distrust issue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on January 31, 2012, 11:44:16 am
Plus, throwing away a whole fighter wing's worth of your own pilots just seems too evil, even for Steele. WiH is all about the gray morality; he's no Darth Vader, he's just on the other side of the war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 31, 2012, 11:57:31 am
I know but they are very (excessively so) well funded and supplied. And they have *absolutely* no pinch for any of their losses. Just take a look at Delenda Est, The GTVA lost 5~6 squadrons EASILY, plus 5 capitals if you go for the kill. Now if the Imperieuse was in-system waiting for the wargods and if Steele had any moral sense, He could have easily deployed the Imperieuse earlier.
The Imperieuse had to wait for the Hanuman to jump in, and then for a TAG beacon to find its way to it (probably delivered by a Pegasus).  Steele also wanted to kill the frigates, so had to make sure they were all present.

If you assume the Pegasus got the order to TAG the Hanuman the moment the Katana and Altan Orde jump in, there's, what, 5 minutes before the Imperieuse shows up?  I could buy that kind of delay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 31, 2012, 01:39:23 pm
They also had to wait for the Hanuman to enter the Carthage's beam range.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on January 31, 2012, 01:59:33 pm
I know but they are very (excessively so) well funded and supplied. And they have *absolutely* no pinch for any of their losses. Just take a look at Delenda Est, The GTVA lost 5~6 squadrons EASILY, plus 5 capitals if you go for the kill. Now if the Imperieuse was in-system waiting for the wargods and if Steele had any moral sense, He could have easily deployed the Imperieuse earlier.
The Imperieuse had to wait for the Hanuman to jump in, and then for a TAG beacon to find its way to it (probably delivered by a Pegasus).  Steele also wanted to kill the frigates, so had to make sure they were all present.

If you assume the Pegasus got the order to TAG the Hanuman the moment the Katana and Altan Orde jump in, there's, what, 5 minutes before the Imperieuse shows up?  I could buy that kind of delay.

It's possible it wasn't a standard missile-delivered TAG. For all we know it could have been planted by a saboteur days earlier, and then remote-activated for maximum effect.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 31, 2012, 02:01:32 pm
That's what I assumed. There was probably a Pegasus on standby in case the TAG was discovered or a different AWACs was used, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 31, 2012, 02:21:34 pm
It's possible it wasn't a standard missile-delivered TAG. For all we know it could have been planted by a saboteur days earlier, and then remote-activated for maximum effect.

Definitely another possibility.  But how it was delivered doesn't really matter.  The delay between the 2 Jovian frigates showing up at the Imperieuse arriving is small enough that I can accept that Steele's plan came together as fact as can be expected.  Doesn't make much sense to throw away the Carthage's air wing and its escorts just for the hell of it.  I don't think Steele would consider making Lopez less of a political threat worth crippling one of his best battlegroups.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 31, 2012, 10:48:50 pm
I think Steele wants to win the war.  It would be incredibly foolish to throw away that much just for the sake of weakening a potential rival for power.  He may be clever and somewhat deceitful, but I don't see him as paranoid.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 01, 2012, 03:38:16 am
But he didn't just throw them away. He used them effectively.
Okay maybe I did chose a poor fomulation to bring across the point I was trying to make.

I didn't try to say that the whole trap was only made to limit Lopez' influence or that he killed off those pilots purely for a political agenda.
I meant that the political balance within the fleet might have been a contributing factor to the way Steele planned out the trap.
While Lopez did go along with it this time, there is no telling if she might have a change of hearts later on, when more and more such incidents acumulate, so better to have some loyal people in place to watch for signs and intervene if necessary, purely as a precaution.

I mean attacking them with bombers and fighters only, far away from the corvettes doesn't make much sense. Putting the two Deimos pairs so far apart that they can't help each other doesn't make sense. Why not have all four corvettes wait together in one place and hold the strikecraft in reserve untill the UEF ships have come into range of those corvettes?
For someone who's supposed to be a military mastermind, Steele made quite a few questionable decisions in that battle. Sure it worked out, but there are things that could have been done to minimize GTVA losses even without tipping off the UEF to the trap and I'm wondering why.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on February 01, 2012, 04:17:32 am
Several things.

1) if you look at the arrangement of the GTVA ships in Delenda Est at the beginning of the mission, they're arranged to intercept the Wargods on any approach.  They just didn't know where they were going to emerge from.

2) Steele didn't personally direct the battle, so blaming him for some (perceived) tactical shortcomings is a little bit of a chase in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on February 01, 2012, 04:34:31 am
The battle of Saturn was Lopez' show, not Steeles. Sending out two Deimos Corvettes and an Aeolus to soften up the Wargods' fighter screen is a debatable, but not exactly stupid move. Also note that usually, both Corvettes survive the run, as does most of the Carthage's escort fleet unless the player explicitly moves to kill them.

Second, if Steele had doubts about Lopez' commitment to his command, he would have her replaced, NOT sacrificed like that. Steele knows that Lopez is far more valuable to the GTVA alive than dead. Could the situation have been resolved differently? Yes, of course. The Imperieuse could have been ordered into action as soon as the second pair of frigates showed up, but this is where Steele's psywar tendencies come through. He wanted to use this action to deliver the most crushing blow possible against UEF morale, which meant waiting for just the moment when the UEF believes to have won the day.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 01, 2012, 05:59:13 am
Sending out two Deimos Corvettes and an Aeolus to soften up the Wargods' fighter screen
Unless changes were made since I last played it, no Aeolus were sent with the first pair of corvettes.

To the others : keep in mind that a pair of corvettes coupled with bomber support is about enough to bring down a single frigate and a single Sanctus. Given her position, not knowing what else the UEF could bring at her, and wanting to gain as much time as possible to recharge her drives, sending a small part of her screen to face a potential threat without compromising the rest of her defences is actually a perfectly logic and reasonable move. If you think Lopez made any tactical mistake, please think twice before speaking next time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on February 01, 2012, 06:20:09 am
Several things.

1) if you look at the arrangement of the GTVA ships in Delenda Est at the beginning of the mission, they're arranged to intercept the Wargods on any approach.  They just didn't know where they were going to emerge from.

2) Steele didn't personally direct the battle, so blaming him for some (perceived) tactical shortcomings is a little bit of a chase in the wrong direction.

Yeah, I'm inclined to agree that Lopez did the best she could to cover all the angles. While the GTVA was obviously expecting the attack, it's unlikely they knew the exact composition of the Wargods task force. Just because the Indus and the Altan Orde had been conducting most of the Wargods operations doesn't mean that a commander of Lopez's caliber would be shortsighted enough to assume that the Wargods didn't have discretionary command of other assets. If she would have been dumb enough to allow the first wave of the Wargods force to draw off all or even most of the escorts, she's leaving a flank wide open to an artillery strike or even to have some Durgas vectored in. Pretty sure if Sorenson radios in and says, "Hey guys, we've got our hands full with the escorts but the Carthage's flank is wide open," someone's gonna show and pound her, most likely leading to a reappearance of the Vikrant and Toreador (oddly enough, even after the trap was sprung, if those two had come in they would have been in prime position to blast the Imperieuse's engines - sounds like the UEF needed more contingencies). Oh well. What if's could go on all day. Basically, my point was:

This.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 01, 2012, 06:30:22 am
Untill now I thought Lopez knew the Imp was on standby and she was ordered inflict as much damage as possible...hm...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on February 01, 2012, 10:16:46 am
Untill now I thought Lopez knew the Imp was on standby and she was ordered inflict as much damage as possible...hm...

That's what I'd believed as well. Especially playing it through a second time, when I heard her being compared to Koth and replying "Only if I lose captain, only if I lose." I pictured her voicing it with a healthy dose of confidence because she knew she had the Imp lined up to cause some mischief.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on February 01, 2012, 10:50:09 am
First of all, Lopez is one of the best combat commanders the GTVA has. Her confidence in her ships is entirely justified. Second, while she did not know about what exactly Steele had planned, she knew something was planned, she had her orders telling her to initiate combat operations. She knew that there were risks for her command involved, but she also knew that Steele would not throw her command away.

In addition, by the time the Imperieuse shows up, the Carthage was almost ready to jump away again anyway, while at the same time not in immediate critical condition.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 01, 2012, 10:58:23 am
She didn't know. She might had her suspicions, but in the "Aboard GTD Atreus" part of Conversations from War in Heaven (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0), it is obvious she didn't know about the Imperieuse and that is why she disapproves Steele sending her battlegroup on a risky strike operation all over the Belt. That, and I was confirmed by a BP team member over IRC that she didn't know (which doesn't mean she couldn't have her suspicions, but you can't base the survival of your destroyer and its battlegroup over a suspicion).

EDIT: ninja'd

Just because the Indus and the Altan Orde had been conducting most of the Wargods operations doesn't mean that a commander of Lopez's caliber would be shortsighted enough to assume that the Wargods didn't have discretionary command of other assets. If she would have been dumb enough to allow the first wave of the Wargods force to draw off all or even most of the escorts, she's leaving a flank wide open to an artillery strike or even to have some Durgas vectored in. Pretty sure if Sorenson radios in and says, "Hey guys, we've got our hands full with the escorts but the Carthage's flank is wide open," someone's gonna show and pound her, most likely leading to a reappearance of the Vikrant and Toreador (oddly enough, even after the trap was sprung, if those two had come in they would have been in prime position to blast the Imperieuse's engines - sounds like the UEF needed more contingencies). Oh well. What if's could go on all day. Basically, my point was:

This.
1) Lopez knew the rest of the Wargods were incoming, simply because the rest of the Wargods engaged her and forced her to crash jump during Pawns. They weren't there yet at the beginning of DE because they had a subspace drive to recharge too, but she knew they would reinforce the attack at some point. The real question was when, and especially, from where. Which is why she didn't want to compromise her defensive screen and hence open her flanks to a counterstrike from those frigates.
2) It's not a matter of whether the UEF lacked contingencies or should have sent a message to let the rest of the fleet know or something. For about the thousandth time : what you see in Delenda Est is only a small part of a system-wide engagement against Tev positions. All the available UEF ships were mobilized to pin down all the Tevs assets they knew could have assisted the Carthage, and hence they had absolutely no spare ships to send against the Imperieuse. It's as simple as that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on February 01, 2012, 11:17:10 am
Lopez must have also had orders to "accidentally" crash into Saturn's gravity well while trying to escape the Wargods after "Pawns". The chance that she would accidentally hit a target as small as one planet when she had the entire solar system to jump to are just too small to even bear consideration. Hell, the fact that the Carthage managed to strand itself at Saturn instead of jumping back to Jupiter or Neptune against such literally astronomical odds should have set off some serious alarm bells for the Wargods.

Unless Lopez was borrowing the Indus' navigator. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 01, 2012, 11:36:17 am
Lopez must have also had orders to "accidentally" crash into Saturn's gravity well while trying to escape the Wargods after "Pawns". The chance that she would accidentally hit a target as small as one planet when she had the entire solar system to jump to are just too small to even bear consideration. Hell, the fact that the Carthage managed to strand itself at Saturn instead of jumping back to Jupiter or Neptune against such literally astronomical odds should have set off some serious alarm bells for the Wargods.

Unless Lopez was borrowing the Indus' navigator. :p
Errrrrr...

Quote
The $r Carthage's jump trajectory was captured by Saturn's gravity well. We estimate she won't be able to jump again for at least twenty minutes.
(DE's briefing).

She didn't "hit" it. Her trajectory accidentally got close enough that she was attracted by it. Depending on how much an influence a planet the size of Saturn could affect subspace in BP canon, her trajectory could have been 100k km away from Saturn from all we know.

Also, sounds like somebody didn't understand the concept of "crash jumps". She couldn't just escape to Jupiter, Neptune or other any safe zone because she was surprised by the Wargods' strike and had to escape before she could calculate jump coordinates. In all effect, she engaged a random jump. The same thing that happened to the Indus at the end of DE, and the same thing that stranded the two 3rd fleet frigates in Collateral Damage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on February 01, 2012, 11:48:57 am
Also, sounds like somebody didn't understand the concept of "crash jumps". She couldn't just escape to Jupiter, Neptune or other any safe zone because she was surprised by the Wargods' strike and had to escape before she could calculate jump coordinates. In all effect, she engaged a random jump. The same thing that happened to the Indus at the end of DE, and the same thing that stranded the two 3rd fleet frigates in Collateral Damage.

I think he understood quite well. If the Carthage executed a random jump, what are the odds that it would end up a sitting duck near Saturn instead of, say, crashing into the sun? I would say though, that although in hindsight it seems like it was too good to be true, it definitely seemed plausible at the time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 01, 2012, 11:54:55 am
Like I said, we don't know how much influence a gas giant like Saturn has on subspace in BP canon. For all we know, the chances of getting stuck in a planet's gravity well from a random jump anywhere in Sol could be 1/2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on February 01, 2012, 12:01:39 pm
Quote
The $r Carthage's jump trajectory was captured by Saturn's gravity well. We estimate she won't be able to jump again for at least twenty minutes.
(DE's briefing).

She didn't "hit" it. Her trajectory accidentally got close enough that she was attracted by it. Depending on how much an influence a planet the size of Saturn could affect subspace in BP canon, her trajectory could have been 100k km away from Saturn from all we know.

Okay, let's assume that Saturn's gravity well is a 100,000km sphere.   That works out to about a ten-trillionth of a percentage point of the volume of the solar system.

As far as crash jumps are concerned, what Qent said. Considering how precisely* the Atreus hits its jump targets in rapid succession during Darkest Hour, I'd assume that the GTVA are much, much, better at plotting jumps in a hurry than the UEF are. If gravity wells are large enough to capture ships at extreme distances, it would be more likely that the Carthage would hit Jupiter than Saturn, even if the direction of the jump were entirely random.

Back to the actual point. :p Every single aspect of the operation, up until the moment the Carthage destroyed the Hanuman, worked out exactly as the Wargods predicted it would. That's hard to manage without some planning.

*precisely=somewhere close to them, rather than next to a gas giant or the sun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 01, 2012, 12:08:53 pm
As far as crash jumps are concerned, what Qent said. Considering how precisely* the Atreus hits its jump targets in rapid succession during Darkest Hour, I'd assume that the GTVA are much, much, better at plotting jumps in a hurry than the UEF are.
What has hurry to do here ? The Atreus engaged a series of perfectly planned, pre-calculated jumps during the Blitz. The Tevs were the ones attacking, remember ?

During Pawns and DE, the Carthage made a non-planned jump to rescue her disabled ships, then had to get the hell outta there. That's a completely different scenario.

Back to the actual point. :p Every single aspect of the operation, up until the moment the Carthage destroyed the Hanuman, worked out exactly as the Wargods predicted it would. That's hard to manage without some planning.
...exactly. Last time I checked, the Wargods' plan was exacted with a significant amount of planning, by nothing less than the two greatest admirals of the UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on February 01, 2012, 12:37:33 pm
Like I said, we don't know how much influence a gas giant like Saturn has on subspace in BP canon. For all we know, the chances of getting stuck in a planet's gravity well from a random jump anywhere in Sol could be 1/2.
Okay, let's assume a 50% chance Lopez would end up in an (apparently) disadvantageous situation. Is there any compelling reason for Steele to accept a 50% chance of the plan not working rather than tell Lopez what she needs to know to ensure its success? Yeah, he would still have the Imperieuse in reserve to try again, but he can't be guaranteed another opportunity to take down six UEF warships while the rest of the UEF assets are engaged.

I got the impression that Steele's jumps in Darkest Hour were in reaction to changing battle conditions -- he took the Atreus to Rheza only once the Indus had showed up, for example. If you could store an arbitrary number of jump solutions in your computer to account for all possible contingencies, crash jumping wouldn't exist to begin with.

Quote
...exactly. Last time I checked, the Wargods' plan was exacted with a significant amount of planning, by nothing less than the two greatest admirals of the UEF.
This plan was opposed by one of the GTVA's best admirals...and she acted in an utterly predictable manner that was completely in line with every single one of the Wargods' hopes and expectations.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on February 01, 2012, 12:57:47 pm
The Atreus engaged a series of perfectly planned, pre-calculated jumps during the Blitz.
Right. So the Carthage's "crash" jump could also have been pre-calculated.

If you could store an arbitrary number of jump solutions in your computer to account for all possible contingencies, crash jumping wouldn't exist to begin with.
Certainly you can't store an unbounded number of jump solutions. But five or ten seems reasonable (maximum 5-10x harder), provided that you stay on a predictable course. I would imagine that if you start maneuvering unexpectedly, all your previous solutions become invalid.

It might depend a lot on the mass of the ship too, since after a fighter receives "jump coordinates" it can jump at any time, even while maneuvering. Or it's also possible that "jump coordinates received" refers only to spacial coordinates and not a complete jump solution, in which case fighter jumps must be much easier to compute than destroyer jumps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on February 01, 2012, 01:07:14 pm
Certainly you can't store an unbounded number of jump solutions. But five or ten seems reasonable (maximum 5-10x harder), provided that you stay on a predictable course. I would imagine that if you start maneuvering unexpectedly, all your previous solutions become invalid.
Well, if you accept that even one jump could be computed in advance and stored, you have to either:

1. Accept the ability to store an unlimited number of jumps in your computer, or
2. Posit that a kilometers-long warship massing millions of tons only has room for enough hard drives to store a very limited number of jump solutions.

The only way that crash jumps make any amount of sense is if it's impossible to compute a jump when you're not physically at the entry point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on February 01, 2012, 01:30:57 pm
Or that they're very complicated and take time to compute. Subspace is fantasy, so jump calculations can be arbitrarily hard.

I hypothesize that a jump solution is only valid at a certain time and place. So if you know you want to jump to Earth five minutes from now, and you're not moving at all, then that's just one calculation and you're good to go. But if you don't know when you want to go to Earth, even if you're still not moving, you have to continuously recalculate for the new conditions every minute. If you might want to go to Earth, Mars, or Jupiter, then that's three times more stuff to calculate, which takes up to three times as long. If you're also maneuvering in combat, then you don't know where you'll be or how fast you're going at the time of the jump, and that's exponentially more work.

Being physically at the entry point could also have something to do with it, because you could need sensor data about the subspace there or something ridiculous like that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 01, 2012, 02:07:43 pm
To somewhat echo what some have said:  I think Steele cares more about winning the war than power.  Don't get me wrong, he probably has an ego, but he wants the GTVA to win the war and wouldn't mind sharing some glory with Lopez.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on February 01, 2012, 09:31:10 pm
This plan was opposed by one of the GTVA's best admirals...and she acted in an utterly predictable manner that was completely in line with every single one of the Wargods' hopes and expectations.

And this couldn't possibly be because those reactions were the best reactions available to her at the time?  You have a crash-jump capable destroyer.  Two of your ships are engaged and supposedly signal for help.  You jump into help.  When presented with a trap, you execute a crash jump to escape.  I fail to see a decision in that chain of events that can be shown as poor without possessing quite a significant amount of knowledge that Lopez had no way of knowing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on February 01, 2012, 10:24:50 pm
The reason the Carthage ended up at Saturn was because fighting the climactic battle of the campaign with Saturn as the backdrop was really ****ing cool. :p

You can adjust the technobabble and fluff however you want to fit that.

EDIT: Actually, battuta has just told me that the BP crew used some astronomy program cranked up to 2385 or whenever, in order to predict where the Carthage could get "caught". So I was wroooooooooooooong.  :o
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on February 01, 2012, 10:53:55 pm
Celestia, probably.  If you're fond of astronomy, it's quite nice.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on February 02, 2012, 12:14:19 am
The reason the Carthage ended up at Saturn was because fighting the climactic battle of the campaign with Saturn as the backdrop was really ****ing cool. :p

You can adjust the technobabble and fluff however you want to fit that.

EDIT: Actually, battuta has just told me that the BP crew used some astronomy program cranked up to 2385 or whenever, in order to predict where the Carthage could get "caught". So I was wroooooooooooooong.  :o

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrazyPrepared is now in play. Holy crap that's cool.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 03, 2012, 05:26:24 pm
Possible guesses for Byrne's secret project (in no particular order of likelyhood):


1-Some kind of super destroyer (UESD 'something')

2-Bringing in the Vishnans to help

3-Somehow getting the Shivans to come and distract the GTVA

4-Calling Pizza Hut for 2 million large pepperoni pizzas to be sent to the three fleets (half hour delivery or it's free...)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on February 03, 2012, 05:31:55 pm



1-Some kind of super destroyer (UESD 'something')

2-Bringing in the Vishnans to help

3-Somehow getting the Shivans to come and distract the GTVA

4-Calling Pizza Hut for 2 million large pepperoni pizzas to be sent to the three fleets (half hour delivery or it's free...)
1: Sounds good, but I would be confused if the Tevs don't even know about some really big ship being constructed in Sol. The UEF can't conceal everything (aside from the secret project).
2: The Vishnans? They are going into war if they think it's a good idea to do it so they can rebalance the (already unbalanced) balance of power.
3: That plan would backfire horrendously. As soon as the Shivans dealt with the Tevs, the UEF will be toast soon.
4: I would expect a huge morale boost.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on February 03, 2012, 07:38:39 pm
Something I found odd was President Toqueville's line in Ken:

"Did we do the right thing? We couldn't let them go forward with it, not once we knew. We will not be tools. But...was it right?"

Not sure how reliable it is, given that mission's nature, but it may hint at other reasons for the GTVA going to war with the UEF, possibly related to the Project.

And again with Mandho's line in the same mission:

"Why are they silent? No one has heard a whisper in more than a year...what does it mean?"

It's all conjecture, of course, but it's worth considering.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 03, 2012, 08:10:53 pm
The tevs would actually probably pull out of sol and shut off the gate to fight the shivans.  That would actually be good for the UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 03, 2012, 08:43:22 pm
1: Sounds good, but I would be confused if the Tevs don't even know about some really big ship being constructed in Sol. The UEF can't conceal everything (aside from the secret project).
2: The Vishnans? They are going into war if they think it's a good idea to do it so they can rebalance the (already unbalanced) balance of power.
3: That plan would backfire horrendously. As soon as the Shivans dealt with the Tevs, the UEF will be toast soon.
4: I would expect a huge morale boost.

I just thought of a way #4 could backfire on Byrne:


Byrne:  "I bought pizza for all my fellow UEF warriors.  Here you go guys."

Calder:  "Byrne you idiot!  I didn't want pepperoni, 3rd Fleet wanted Hawaiian!"

Netreba:  "Just pizza?  Steele said he'd also hand out free buffalo wings if we surrendered.  Besides, I like canadian bacon pizza, not pepperoni."

 ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: djmindcrasher on February 05, 2012, 12:34:27 pm
When will WiH 2 be released?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 05, 2012, 12:35:01 pm
When it's done my friend ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on February 05, 2012, 12:41:00 pm
In 2012. Maybe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on February 06, 2012, 03:00:47 am
Netreba:  "Just pizza?  Steele said he'd also hand out free buffalo wings if we surrendered.  Besides, I like canadian bacon pizza, not pepperoni."

 ;)

:D

Also, after all the pilots of the UEF start ordering the pizzaz, the solaris would become a giant pizza delivery van! :D

(I finally understood the sekret project, YAY!)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on February 06, 2012, 06:27:08 am
(I finally understood the sekret project, YAY!)
:drevil: you mean the serkret projet? :warp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on February 06, 2012, 11:35:57 am
(I finally understood the sekret project, YAY!)
:drevil: you mean th serkret projet? :warp:

They actually would make a great pizza delievery service since, much as I tried, Serkr's engines are invincible so you could always expect them to deliver on time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on February 07, 2012, 07:36:25 am
(I finally understood the sekret project, YAY!)
:drevil: you mean th serkret projet? :warp:

They actually would make a great pizza delivery service since, much as I tried, Serkr's engines are invincible so you could always expect them to deliver on time.

^^ WIN
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on February 20, 2012, 03:38:32 pm
Anyone else see the Mass Effect 3 trailer (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51VNpCV_-dY) and get the impression that the Alliance is buying their interceptors from the UEF? Tragically it seems most of them haven't learned how to dodge anti-fighter beams yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 20, 2012, 04:09:33 pm
What the...?
Why are the Reapers suddenly only using a single particle stream weapon coming out of their middle? Souvreign had one of those on each "claw"!
And if everyone there is dead, the building destroyed and the only things that move are all husks, why not just bombard the area from the air or orbit, rather than wasting your ground soldiers, who would be better used to protect the surviving civilians elsewhere.
God I hate it when trailers - games and movies too for that matter - try to look oh-so-cool so hard that it only ends up being stupid, even if they didn't throw logic out of the window/airlock, which of course they did.

And I think those fighters look more like miniature versions of the Normandy (the first one from ME1, which's look I like much more than the ME2 varient) than any UEF fighter.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 20, 2012, 04:26:45 pm
Also, what exactly is the Medjai?

I couldn't find a wiki article on it, but I presume it's the emperor's personal guard or something?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 20, 2012, 04:39:49 pm
Quote
Khonsu II reinstated the Medjai, a close-knit band of military leaders and admirals who reported directly to him.
It's from the article "the Rift" both in the Techroom and on the BP homepace under the fiction tab.

So more like a council of military learders than a royal guard.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 20, 2012, 06:10:49 pm
What the...?
Why are the Reapers suddenly only using a single particle stream weapon coming out of their middle? Souvreign had one of those on each "claw"!
And if everyone there is dead, the building destroyed and the only things that move are all husks, why not just bombard the area from the air or orbit, rather than wasting your ground soldiers, who would be better used to protect the surviving civilians elsewhere.
God I hate it when trailers - games and movies too for that matter - try to look oh-so-cool so hard that it only ends up being stupid, even if they didn't throw logic out of the window/airlock, which of course they did.

And I think those fighters look more like miniature versions of the Normandy (the first one from ME1, which's look I like much more than the ME2 varient) than any UEF fighter.

Seeing as this is HLP, I'm guessing I'm not the only one here who paused the vid to get a better look at the spaceships. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 21, 2012, 01:01:08 am
1-Some kind of super destroyer (UESD 'something')
UESD Nemesis, just for the crazy awesome mission where it and the Atreus keep nanojumping behind each other.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 21, 2012, 03:18:53 am
that doesn't sound crazy awesome at all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 21, 2012, 08:47:47 am
Please, don't let the secret project be some sort of super desty like "Oh, we're loosing, we just have ressources for hardly six month, but surprise, we build a super desty and are gonna kick some ass!"  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 21, 2012, 09:05:50 am
There's very little we can say except to promise that the secret project will not cheapen the conflict or disconnect the resolution from the buildup.

Given all the :WORDS: spent on economic, social, strategic, and tactical thought in BP so far, it'd be kind of silly to reduce the conflict to 'big ship, bigger ship' antes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 21, 2012, 09:21:57 am
... smaller ship with bigger gun?  :nervous:

(gorgon/gargon/goron/whatever-the-hell-that-thing-was-called cannon from whatever mod that was. made out of the freighter and meson bomb.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on February 21, 2012, 10:08:30 am
It's the Gorgon Cannon, and it came from Derelict. From the looks of it, there doesn't appear to be any concrete plans to put stuff like that into the mod. A few new ships, yeah, but a gigantic cannon, probably not.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EternalRuin on February 21, 2012, 11:16:52 am
The Narayana is already halfway there to being a gun with engines attached on the back ;p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 21, 2012, 03:13:18 pm
Same could be said of the Chimera too I guess.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 21, 2012, 03:22:50 pm
Well, both have a really good anti-fighter coverage. The Chimera especially, with 7 AAAs and 5 STerPulses.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on February 22, 2012, 12:00:35 am
So I replayed the first mission of WiH and something was off. The Leeuwenhoek was seven minutes off from the convoy when I was in the middle of the mission. Was that intentional and my memory was off, or is this a bug? I had to Shift > to make the time go by when I killed all the Tevs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on February 22, 2012, 12:06:28 am
Just a hunch, but was its engine subsystem damaged?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on February 22, 2012, 04:50:40 am
Engines should be guardianed-threshold to avoid that. How old is bp2-core? There was an issue beforehand with the medical ship's default top speed being lower than the rest of the convoy's.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on February 22, 2012, 05:25:25 am
So I replayed the first mission of WiH and something was off. The Leeuwenhoek was seven minutes off from the convoy when I was in the middle of the mission. Was that intentional and my memory was off, or is this a bug? I had to Shift > to make the time go by when I killed all the Tevs.

I used to get that in the old version of WiH. Don't get it now though...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on February 22, 2012, 03:06:17 pm
Oh gosh. You're all right. I thought I made sure that I was up-to-date...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on February 24, 2012, 11:40:16 am
Oh gosh. You're all right. I thought I made sure that I was up-to-date...

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm there?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 25, 2012, 03:10:57 am
so i started a replay of WIH with the update, excited to see the shiny new models i keep hearing about.  except, i can't see the shiny new models.  or much of anything at all except for thrusters and the torpedo explosions that white-out the screen. 

does WIH override lighting settings?  and if so, how do i make it not? 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on February 25, 2012, 03:31:29 am
Post debug log.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 25, 2012, 06:42:05 am
sorry, i didn't really make it clear what i meant.  i'm sure nothing is WRONG, i just don't like how dark everything is (and the blinding flashes and sunglares, but last time i asked about that i got no response).  WiH has always been kinda dark looking, but unless i'm misremembering, it seems darker after the update.  i can only make out the textures when that side of a ship is facing a pretty strong light source.  everything else is just shadowy, and frankly bland.  AoA certainly wasn't this dark (if anything too bright with all the nebulas). 

if it's nothing that can be changed, then oh well i guess. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 25, 2012, 06:53:33 am
Why don't you just change your lighting settings, really. (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Sample_Lighting_Settings)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 25, 2012, 07:15:41 am
my lighting settings are set how i like them, at least for everything else.  i asked if WIH overrides these somehow.  i thought it might because i know how fond the dev team and seemingly most of the players are of dark settings. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on February 25, 2012, 07:45:53 am
Aren't the missions built with low ambience?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on February 25, 2012, 07:51:36 am
Mods can't change your custom lighting settings, and please don't make assumptions about what team members' lighting setting preferences are. I personally don't use ultra dark settings.

What the mod does do is add post-processing effects (higher contrast and noise filter) so disable post-processing in the launcher if it's not to your taste.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 25, 2012, 08:39:08 am
The missions of WiH are set with realistic lighting settings in regard with the distance to the Sun and position of nearby planets if applicable. Most of the time, when you're not near a planet, that means the mission is quite dark indeed, because that's how it's supposed to be.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 25, 2012, 09:06:00 am
Turning on emissive lighting in the launcher should brighten things up if you want more glow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on February 25, 2012, 02:33:23 pm
And again, posting a debug log would allow people to check whether there is something wrong or not. Merely thinking one way or another does not make it so.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 25, 2012, 10:13:52 pm
The Narayana is already halfway there to being a gun with engines attached on the back ;p
I tried out the Vadrj.. Vad... Fleet Bomber a few days ago and it's almost as gun-with-a-plane-attached as an A-10. Wartime Special Projects indeed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 25, 2012, 11:30:29 pm
Just some speculation: 

How long after WIH do you think the conclusion (BP3) will take place?

I would assume that since the BP website says WIH took place during the 'final weeks' of the Sol-GTVA war...that it wouldn't be too long afterwards.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 26, 2012, 04:06:28 am
That really depends on how WiH2 will end.
It might be another year and a half, like between AoA and WiH, or the Shivans might decide to ruin the victory party/presentation of the peace treaty to the public/whatever the BP team will come up with.
The one thing I'm pretty confident about is, that the Shivans and Vishnans will make an appearance in BP3.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 26, 2012, 11:45:31 pm
If BP3 takes place almost 2 years after BP2 and the war is still going on (and not insurrection/guerilla affairs...i.e., the UEF hasn't surrendered/signed an armistice yet), then they may have to take down or modify that line about WIH being in the 'final weeks' of the war on the BP website.  It's not a big deal, just that that detail would no longer be correct.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on February 27, 2012, 12:43:40 am
If BP3 takes place almost 2 years after BP2 and the war is still going on (and not insurrection/guerilla affairs...i.e., the UEF hasn't surrendered/signed an armistice yet), then they may have to take down or modify that line about WIH being in the 'final weeks' of the war on the BP website.  It's not a big deal, just that that detail would no longer be correct.
How so? Remember that BP3 is not the next release, WiH was split into two.  The next release is part 2 of WiH.

BP1: Aquarius (Released)
BP2: War In Heaven (Part 1 of 2 has been released)
BP3: ???? (Not released and not yet being "worked" on).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 27, 2012, 01:07:43 am
The way I viewed it:

Blue Planet part 3=War In Heaven Part 2


Though I suppose we're kind of dealing with semantics here.


Anyways, if the next part takes place a year or so after WIH, then I imagine something important would have taken place in the meantime (maybe Mars gets captured).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 27, 2012, 01:56:51 am
The UEF only has six months left of logistics, it literally can't be a year later.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 27, 2012, 03:45:42 am
Unless the GTVA makes a temporary withdrawl from the frontlines, back into their fortified positions at Jupiter, Neptune and the node.... which is as likely as a Vasudan doing striptease in a martian bar, while Shivans and Vishnans holding hands/claws cheer her on.

Besides the team already said that the civil war would be resolved before BP3 (i.e. in WiH2), or am I misremembering soemthing here?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on February 27, 2012, 04:30:58 am
The way I viewed it:

Blue Planet part 3=War In Heaven Part 2

You viewed it wrong :P

War In Heaven is Blue Planet 2. War in Heaven R2 is BP 2.2. War in Heaven deals exclusively with the GTVA/UEF war; the war will be concluded by the time War in Heaven R2 ends.

The BP storyline will conclude in BP3 (for which we have a story outline, but nothing more at this point).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Raiden on February 27, 2012, 05:56:53 pm
Any chance of a new preview along the same lines as the OP?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 27, 2012, 11:09:07 pm
Just to make my guess:

WIH2 will take place just a month or two after WIH.  That would leave some time for stuff to happen in the meantime, but still leave enough time to cover the end of the war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 28, 2012, 12:54:54 am
As was mentioned on the site, WiH covers the final WEEKS of the war, so I'm thinking they may just pick up where they left off.

The war is probably a few days to a week or so from being over considering how long WiH seems to have been.

Expect immediate deployment of the serkret project or Shivans at any moment mentlegen.  It seems the **** is about to hit the fan at 0.99c.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 28, 2012, 02:23:49 am
The secret project must be a doozy then because either side would need more than a couple weeks to win the war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on February 28, 2012, 04:40:57 am
The BP storyline will conclude in BP3

WHY! Oh, WHY!!! :sobsob:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on February 28, 2012, 05:09:27 am
Because that has been the plan all along. There is an overarching plot that ties all the BP parts together; it was never planned to resolve it in War in Heaven.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 28, 2012, 05:29:21 am
The secret project must be a doozy then because either side would need more than a couple weeks to win the war.
I don't know about that. Depending on how Calder and Netreba fared during Delenda Est, the Feds might no longer have the assets to avoid a decisive defeat at Earth.

Though I get the feeling that Steele is terrified of Byrne's project, so it's definitely a doozy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 28, 2012, 05:35:22 am
It definitely seems that the loss of the Wargods was the hardest hit for the UEF during the whole system-wide engagement of DE. I'd be surprised if the UEF lost more than a couple of cruisers. They might have many other warships in various damaged or disrepaired states though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 28, 2012, 03:50:46 pm
It definitely seems that the loss of the Wargods was the hardest hit for the UEF during the whole system-wide engagement of DE. I'd be surprised if the UEF lost more than a couple of cruisers. They might have many other warships in various damaged or disrepaired states though.
Where are you getting that from?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 28, 2012, 04:50:41 pm
Even if one of the Solarises just got damaged a fair bit and had to sit out for a few weeks or so, that's good news for the GTVA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 28, 2012, 04:51:44 pm
Just the overall feeling I get from the little we know. We do know for sure the Eris was engaged with Serkr, and that the Toutatis was damaged enough that they put it in drydock, mounting those awesome forward mass drivers in the process.

But given that the real objective was the Carthage, I doubt Calder and Netreba put all the diversionary fleet at too much a risk.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on February 28, 2012, 06:42:17 pm
I've always wondered how the heck you dry dock something in space.  Do you seriously encase it in some kind of construct and then fill it with air?  That sounds terribly inefficient given the frankly retarded volumes of air you'd need.  And if you don't do something like that, I don't know how you could call it dry dock, so the whole thing leaves me confused.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 28, 2012, 06:48:23 pm
"retarded volumes of air"

We are talking about people with the technology to rip holes in the fabric of reality and cruise to other solar systems through them.  Like they give a suborbital **** about the amount of air they need.

Also, we shall see Matt.  The fact remains the war is almost over.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on February 28, 2012, 06:49:32 pm
It's probably just a term that's survived through the hundreds of years of space travel even though the original meaning is outdated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Blackace on February 28, 2012, 06:51:38 pm
Hey! i got this error when trying to start bp2...

"bp2-wep.tbm(line 979:Error: Missing required token: [+Count:]. Found [+Type:      Ring]
in weapon: ShockwaveEffect"

fs2open.log

Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 8.2
  -spec_static 3.5
  -spec_point 8.6
  -spec_tube 1.0
  -ambient_factor 70
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -nomotiondebris
  -spec
  -normal
  -orbradar
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
Building file index...
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x241c257f
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x51171798
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe386a796
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xd263c407
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd3552477
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0xbba0f03c
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xe79b67ce
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0xb50d55b7
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x6b804787
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x316467fa
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x39fe8221
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x7c9d7e74
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xe9c03ec4
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x0098ee1f
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x749032a2
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x566add58
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xf2983309
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd4e3ad49
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x799e46a1
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x825f5ee0
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa7037300
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 31 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 156 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 72 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 542 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2012 files
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 68 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 53 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 228 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1905 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 2 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1892 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\' ... 47 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 1777 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root 'f:\' ... 0 files
Found 35 roots and 19685 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Software' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1920x1080 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer   : GeForce 8800 GT/PCI/SSE2
  OpenGL Version    : 3.3.0

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_NV_vertex_program3".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr) ...
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 4 (32)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  Shader Version: 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
bp2-wep.tbm(line 979:Error: Missing required token: [+Count:]. Found [+Type: Ring]
in weapon: ShockwaveEffect
 instead.
ERROR: bp2-wep.tbm(line 979:
Error: Missing required token: [+Count:]. Found [+Type: Ring]
in weapon: ShockwaveEffect
 instead.

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 262
Int3(): From c:\temp\fs2_final_export\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1155
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 28, 2012, 06:54:27 pm
The real objective of Aristeia was the Agincourt, and the Eris was still nearly destroyed at Neptune, even without Serkr's help. If Second and Third Fleet are still reeling when Steele takes advantage of his momentum, and he will with the Imperiuse back in play and four of the UEF's best frigates out, they could lose a Solaris.

By "drydock" they probably mean parking in a shipyard and actually rebuilding damaged sections instead of just patching them up with active armor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on February 28, 2012, 07:02:01 pm
I've always wondered how the heck you dry dock something in space.  Do you seriously encase it in some kind of construct and then fill it with air?  That sounds terribly inefficient given the frankly retarded volumes of air you'd need.  And if you don't do something like that, I don't know how you could call it dry dock, so the whole thing leaves me confused.
If we're to discuss naval paradigms that are routinely and erroneously applied to space combat in science fiction, the term "dry dock" is probably the least of our worries.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 28, 2012, 07:14:48 pm
Hey! i got this error when trying to start bp2...

"bp2-wep.tbm(line 979:Error: Missing required token: [+Count:]. Found [+Type:      Ring]
in weapon: ShockwaveEffect"

fs2open.log

Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace version: 3.6.12
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 8.2
  -spec_static 3.5
  -spec_point 8.6
  -spec_tube 1.0
  -ambient_factor 70
  -env
  -mipmap
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -nomotiondebris
  -spec
  -normal
  -orbradar
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
Building file index...
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x241c257f
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x51171798
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe386a796
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xd263c407
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd3552477
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0xbba0f03c
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0xe79b67ce
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0xb50d55b7
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x6b804787
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x316467fa
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x39fe8221
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x7c9d7e74
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xe9c03ec4
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x0098ee1f
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x749032a2
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x566add58
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xf2983309
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd4e3ad49
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x799e46a1
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x825f5ee0
Found root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa7037300
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 31 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 156 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 72 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 542 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2012 files
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 68 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-adv-visuals.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 53 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1488 files
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 228 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1905 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 2 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1892 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\' ... 47 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 1777 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Spiele\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root 'f:\' ... 0 files
Found 35 roots and 19685 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  Using 'Generic Software' as OpenAL sound device...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1920x1080 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 32, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor     : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer   : GeForce 8800 GT/PCI/SSE2
  OpenGL Version    : 3.3.0

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_NV_vertex_program3".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Initializing Shaders Manager...
  Loading and compiling main shaders...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr) ...
    Compiling main shader ->  main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr) / main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr) ...
  Shaders Manager initialized.

  Max texture units: 4 (32)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  Using GLSL for model rendering.
  Shader Version: 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 760 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 52 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
bp2-wep.tbm(line 979:Error: Missing required token: [+Count:]. Found [+Type: Ring]
in weapon: ShockwaveEffect
 instead.
ERROR: bp2-wep.tbm(line 979:
Error: Missing required token: [+Count:]. Found [+Type: Ring]
in weapon: ShockwaveEffect
 instead.

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 262
Int3(): From c:\temp\fs2_final_export\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1155

I haven't been keeping up with the whole update mess but I believe you have to use 3.6.14 RC3 to play BP now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on February 28, 2012, 09:06:31 pm
RC5 works provided that you ignore the warnings. They should be harmless either way. (Outdated doesn't mean deprecated, or at least I hope not.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 29, 2012, 03:35:42 am

Expect immediate deployment of the serkret project

"Serkret" project?  :p

Byrne bribes Serkr Team to defect...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 29, 2012, 05:17:32 am
Just the overall feeling I get from the little we know. We do know for sure the Eris was engaged with Serkr, and that the Toutatis was damaged enough that they put it in drydock, mounting those awesome forward mass drivers in the process.
Mounting awsome forward mass drivers?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 29, 2012, 05:27:57 am
Just the overall feeling I get from the little we know. We do know for sure the Eris was engaged with Serkr, and that the Toutatis was damaged enough that they put it in drydock, mounting those awesome forward mass drivers in the process.
Mounting awsome forward mass drivers?
Dunno, but if the Toutatis gets forward mass drivers...and keeps it's missile spitting ability...then you get a ship that can slug it out with everything...are we talking about an uber-Solaris?^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 05:28:20 am
Someone hasn't followed latest news.

(http://media.moddb.com/images/mods/1/16/15109/screen0016.png)

From ModDB. You can see the Nara-grade mass drivers around the nose of the thing, although I've been shown much better preview screenshots than that on IRC. I've already adapted them to HWBP, btw. (http://www.moddb.com/mods/homeworld-blue-planet/images/wallpapers)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 29, 2012, 05:31:23 am
Great, now the Toutatis can snipe at every Tev ship, destroying their beams and close in for missile spawn of death...
Why do I start hearing the "Godlike" sound of UT?^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 29, 2012, 06:07:16 am
I didn't expect that there would be news about BP on ModDB, that isn't also posted on HLP.

And it's good to know that you saw better screens (any chance someone can link them in here too please?), because the red trails on that shot, look more like missile trails to me than those of massdriver or gauss shots. Don't misunderstand me, I do believe you, but I too want to see those screenshots if possible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 29, 2012, 06:21:31 am
These should be no gaus weapon trails, since they're not straight.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 06:26:09 am
Probably because they ARE missile trails, silly. Mass drivers are here (http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/7745/homeworld22012022913240.png). (not lvlshotting because I don't intend to spam the thread with high-res HWBP WIP pics everywhere)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 29, 2012, 06:58:06 am
So, do they shoot shells the size of an Aeolus?^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 07:00:19 am
They're Narayana guns. Same size.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Deadly in a Shadow on February 29, 2012, 10:05:37 am
When the hell did the UEF had the time to staple Nara-gunz on them?

Anyway, awesomeness ensues.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 10:54:23 am
and that the Toutatis was damaged enough that they put it in drydock, mounting those awesome forward mass drivers in the process.
I shouldn't have to quote myself. And those are old news really.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on February 29, 2012, 11:24:31 am
I did not know this. It is awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 29, 2012, 01:45:39 pm
Thanks guys for helping to clear up my misuse of BP terminology.

I'm guessing now that WIH 2 will only take place shortly thereafter WIH?  Another question on that note, does anyone know how long WIH took (mission 1 had a date of 9-27-86  but I couldn't find an official date in one of the last missions)?




As a GTVA supporter, I'm worried about this new weapon the UEF has on the Solaris  :p, but it does look cool from a technical standpoint.


Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 29, 2012, 02:11:02 pm
They are probably going to have to deal with a lot of technical problems there.  Feeding it ammo etc is going to be a ***** since the ship wasn't designed to use ammo that big, and there would be no pre-existing systems to feed ammo to those guns.  Unless they planned on attaching stuff like that later in which case the UEF is awesomer than I thought.

Serkr still only needs to get within range, in which case those wont be good for ****, so it isn't that worrying to me.  They just jump into a good attack position and lots of toasted buntu.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 29, 2012, 02:24:13 pm
The Solaris class has actually had capacity for big guns mounted there for a long time iirc, they were just never manufactured or fitted (I could be wrong but I believe that's been established as long as the model's been around)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 02:37:48 pm
Remember the Solaris design wasn't very popular, seen as a waste of resources in a system with already 5 times the amount of Karunas you'd need to police it. I wouldn't be surprised if they cut a few of the planned weaponry from the original design, while still retaining the hardpoints originally designed here. That way, it's nearly plug-and-play installation afterwards.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 29, 2012, 03:57:10 pm
Wasn't it already tactically superior to the Raynor enough? XD

EDIT:

That came off weird, but it is a serious question, followed by amusement at the apparent overkill.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 29, 2012, 04:04:43 pm
If you slap them down in FRED, yeah -- in practice, not so much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 04:26:49 pm
Capship vs capship situations don't mean much anyway. You rarelly send a destroyer alone, you've got to count on the whole fighter complements, the positions of the two desties, the recharge state of their drives, the skill of their pilots...

Too many variables man, too many variables. A single of those things could turn the battle one way or the other.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 29, 2012, 04:46:27 pm
Not talking duel necessarily, but I mean in the middle of a major fleet action, or some such. It is awesome that they may be fairly balanced, however.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EternalRuin on February 29, 2012, 05:24:55 pm
I didn't know of those massive cannons either... which are freaking awesome looking, I might add.

Are there any other pieces of sheer awesomenesss which I have missed? =p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 29, 2012, 05:56:11 pm
I think the Solaris could do with a few more heavy turrets on the "underside", seeing as only two gattlers point downwards, with the other 10 pointing up. While the forward firing heavy guns are nice, they still do nothing to remedy that weakness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 06:12:13 pm
Gattlers are quite useless anyway. Apocalypses are the true main armament of the Solaris class, and those are 360° coverage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 29, 2012, 06:27:28 pm
Hm...what I don't like is the "Target killed, warping out" and when the ship is over the...threshold, it still takes damage...that's how many of my freded missions fail^^
And the Solaris is one of those out of the grave killer...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 29, 2012, 06:28:35 pm
Apocalypse torpedoes don't kill bombers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 29, 2012, 06:31:17 pm
But Serkr after killing a Solaris, one usually falls prey to topredos, while jumping out...well, I guess an invulnarable event after killing the target would work just fine...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 29, 2012, 06:54:58 pm
Apocalypse torpedoes don't kill bombers.
Neither do Gattler turrets. And the Solaris has more than ample coverage of Point Defense and Burst Flak. Plus a whole air complement. Your point ?

Hm...what I don't like is the "Target killed, warping out" and when the ship is over the...threshold, it still takes damage...that's how many of my freded missions fail^^
And the Solaris is one of those out of the grave killer...
Guardian you ships when the target ship is destroyed. Hide the guardianing by switching to a heavier armor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on February 29, 2012, 11:23:14 pm
Gattlers are quite useless anyway.
Solaris' gattler turrets were slightly improved in R2 because it now has a little brother for another type of ship.

Edit: BGreen has sustained DPS of 880. Gattler turret's damage was increased from 15 to 20. Meaning it does sustained DPS of 150. So you need 6 Gattler turrets to match single BGreen. A Solaris has 12 of them, so a Solaris already has two Bgreen's worth of firepower in Gattler turrets only. Slight scatter was also removed to make them more efficient in targeting subsystems and turrets.

Gattler turret's little brother has effectively half the DPS and we'll be seeing it later in R2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on March 28, 2012, 06:18:14 am
My,my,
just made the effort of changing the retail campaign to something BP-ish...very bad idea^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on March 28, 2012, 06:29:24 am
Come on, it's not that bad, it just requires some additionnal balancing FREDing. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on March 28, 2012, 07:07:00 am
But if you're not able to do...
We all know what an Tev fighter with Balor does with a shiv...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 28, 2012, 07:11:59 am
It can be BP-ish without Balors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on March 28, 2012, 08:27:02 am
Yeah, I was more thinking about improved AI than having next-gen/TEI stuff.
One thing you'll always remember after that is that Basilisks and maras carry Trebs as their default loadout. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 28, 2012, 08:29:25 am
That's probably the single thing that makes Bearbaiting brokenly hard with improved AI, yeah :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 28, 2012, 03:46:25 pm
Come on, it's not that bad, it just requires some additionnal balancing FREDing. :)
Considering that of those 12 gattlers only two point "down", FREDding makes a lot of difference in the regard of the Solaris' gattler efficiency.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Legate Damar on April 12, 2012, 06:57:52 am
May I please use ships from this in my campaign?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on April 12, 2012, 07:01:31 am
All assets released as part of BP can be used freely in other mods, provided proper attribution is given, either by crediting these things to their creators as mentioned in BP's credits, or by crediting them to the BP team where no such info is given.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Legate Damar on April 12, 2012, 07:05:45 am
Ok thank you
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 09, 2012, 12:53:08 pm
Dunno if this was already noted, but new karuna has lods that do not share the same center point as lod0. Haven't tested in missions but in tech room switching lodS noticeably shifts the ship forwards.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hashich on May 13, 2012, 11:02:19 am
I loved playing your campaign so much !! i'm waiting for the "War in heaven" release with audio dialogue, when it's done, let's continue the story ! i'm very looking forward !! =D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 13, 2012, 12:50:16 pm
Why in "War in Heaven" text  and faces of talks not on left high part of screen as usual, but in centre under sight . How put all of this on the top-left? Change resolutions dont helped.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 13, 2012, 01:01:36 pm
That was a design decision, so people are less likely to not notice when text appears. Quite usefull for something that isn't (yet) voice acted I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 13, 2012, 01:38:52 pm
I soon on youtube. One guy play in "war in heaven" with text uppears.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The_Force on May 13, 2012, 01:40:10 pm
That was before it was changed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 13, 2012, 01:58:14 pm
So how to back it up?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 13, 2012, 02:09:16 pm
So how to back it up?

You would need to edit the hud gauges .tbl.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 13, 2012, 02:18:27 pm
in mod files of "War in heaven" hud gauges .tbl missing. Create it with code in main freespace2\data\tables dont give results except i have dubl HUDs on the screen. Which particularly file need to fix?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 14, 2012, 03:29:05 am
You should place the file in "...\blueplanet2\data\tables" and make sure the file has the same name as the one used in BP, so it will be over-ruled rather than both being used.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 14, 2012, 04:25:22 am
How to know, which file using BP for rename it? Exactly not hud_gauges .tbl, i tested.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 14, 2012, 04:26:28 am
Look for a file that ends in -hdg.tbm
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 14, 2012, 06:12:02 am
It was mv_root-hdg.tbm, thks. Now i will try to fix sound - after each death all music disappearing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 14, 2012, 06:16:14 am
Good luck. That sounds like a code bug, which you cannot fix by altering BP data.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 14, 2012, 12:33:09 pm
this mod hell difficult. in easy mode each mission failed on 10-20 times.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 14, 2012, 12:48:28 pm
this mod hell difficult. in easy mode each mission failed on 10-20 times.

Are you having trouble with enemy fighters killing you, or with completing mission objectives?

There's an SCP bug right now that may be breaking ship armor classes, but the mod also has enhanced AI which means it can be quite tricky if you're not a FreeSpace vet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 15, 2012, 01:27:20 pm
both troubles. also my friend ships stupid like a cow. One war killing their of packages. Their not assisting, not killing normaly + usualy commands dont available. Their AI not much about war ships. Many missions failed many times. My nerves is end, and i leave again in "Age of Aquaris". Also at word - i am playing in freespace from his reation but this mod is hell for me on easy difficult. Age of Aquaris the best.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 15, 2012, 01:29:12 pm
We've had a couple reports of people having trouble with the friendly AI, but it's not clear whether this is a bug or just people having difficulty problems. The friendly AI is significantly better than in BP1 (or any previous FreeSpace mod), but the missions are also more difficult and the enemy AI is concomitantly improved.

If there is an AI bug we'll need to track it down.

e: Also, these missions are pretty hard if you cannot keep up with the dialogue, which is definitely a fair problem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 15, 2012, 09:16:10 pm
Hmm, it seems like there may actually be an AI bug in the engine right now. Sensus, what build did you use to play BP2?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Eagle1oh7 on May 15, 2012, 11:02:22 pm
Well I got the WiH part 1 download and in the root file but it says this:

Error: sounds.tbl(line 629:
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, ]  instead.


File: /Users/cliffgordon/fs2_open_3_6_14/projects/Xcode/../../code/parse/parselo.cpp
Line 262

I have all the files required and the AoA campaign played just fine. I have 3.6.14 RC2, or should I look into RC6?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 15, 2012, 11:53:48 pm
Do get RC6, but also please post a debug log - this looks like a really simple error to fix. You can check the Support forum for instructions to generate said log.

It looks like there's just a VP file out of place, or you've renamed a folder (make sure your blue planet 1 install is in a folder called blueplanet)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 16, 2012, 06:51:35 am
Hmm, it seems like there may actually be an AI bug in the engine right now. Sensus, what build did you use to play BP2?
i made build all as recommended in http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70745.0, Inferno Builds. I had detect main problem from all my expirience. Main difficult It is power of war guns againts armor and shields of my ship. How i get into war fire, i living 2-5 seconds in this fire from 1-2 ships with my full hull and shields. In someone missions i dying from just 1 ship many times. Fighting againts big battleships last more shortly, their beams, lasers. flack cannons kill me momentally, and it just on easy mode. All in all, battles in War in Heaven very shortly againts in freespace 2, it because of damage raise too high, in my opinion. Although for me, first problem is music disappearing from time to time, from mission to mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 16, 2012, 07:10:13 am
Don't go near warships if you don't have to - pay close attention to your mission objectives.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cyborg17 on May 16, 2012, 05:58:07 pm
Although for me, first problem is music disappearing from time to time, from mission to mission.

Looks like it's not just me.  It might be an FSO bug and not a BP bug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Eagle1oh7 on May 16, 2012, 06:49:45 pm
Well, here's my log:

==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
Opened log '/Users/pabloparedes/Library/FS2_Open/data/fs2_open.log', Wed May 16 16:45:46 2012 ...
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.6.13.8748
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_exp 15
  -ogl_spec 20
  -spec_static 1.5
  -spec_point 1.2
  -spec_tube 1.5
  -ambient_factor 35
  -env
  -missile_lighting
  -glow
  -spec
  -normal
  -3dshockwave
  -ballistic_gauge
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod Blue Planet/blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -debug_window
  -window
  -fullscreen_window
Building file index...
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0xb50d55b7
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-adv-visuals.vp' with a checksum of 0x241c257f
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x51171798
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe386a796
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xd263c407
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd3552477
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root '/Users/pabloparedes/Library/FS2_Open/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/' ... 0 files
Searching root '/Users/pabloparedes/Library/FS2_Open/blueplanet/' ... 0 files
Searching root '/Users/pabloparedes/Library/FS2_Open/mediavps_3612/' ... 2 files
Searching root '/Users/pabloparedes/Library/FS2_Open/' ... 2 files
Searching root '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/' ... 0 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-adv-visuals.vp' ... 31 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-audio1.vp' ... 156 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-core.vp' ... 72 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 641 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2012 files
Searching root '/Applications/FreeSpace2/blueplanet/' ... 0 files
Searching root '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/' ... 0 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612/MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root '/Applications/FreeSpace2/' ... 15 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 32 roots and 17411 files.
ERROR: Unknown Language Checksum: -1162327434
Using default language settings...
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Apple Computer Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "AL_EXT_float32".

  Sample rate: 0 (44100)
  EFX enabled: NO
  Playback device: Built-in Output
  Capture device: Built-in Microphone
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Failed to init speech
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1680x1050 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing SDL...
  Requested SDL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, double-buffer: 1, FSAA: 32
  Actual SDL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, double-buffer: 1, FSAA: 8
  OpenGL Vendor    : ATI Technologies Inc.
  OpenGL Renderer  : ATI Radeon HD 6770M OpenGL Engine
  OpenGL Version   : 2.1 ATI-7.18.18

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod".

  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (null-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: soft-v.sdr (soft-v.sdr), soft-f.sdr (soft-f.sdr)
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
  Compiling shader: soft-v.sdr (soft-v.sdr), soft-f.sdr (soft-f.sdr)
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lb-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (b-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (b-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (bg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfb-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lf-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfe-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfn-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (null-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lg-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgs-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (l-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (ls-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (le-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lse-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (ln-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ln-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lsn-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lgsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lne-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lsne-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (la-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lba-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ba-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (ba-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (ba-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (bga-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbga-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (la-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbgsnea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lbsnea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfba-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbga-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfa-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsa-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfna-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsna-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbgsnea-f.sdr)
  Compiling shader: main-v.sdr (lfnea-v.sdr), main-f.sdr (lfbsnea-f.sdr)

  Max texture units: 8 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 1048575
  Max elements indices: 150000
  Max texture size: 16384x16384
  Max render buffer size: 16384x16384
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: NO
  Using bilinear texture filter.
  OpenGL Shader Version: 1.20
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Too many icons in icons.tbl; only the first 105 will be used" at missionbriefcommon.cpp:357
sounds.tbl(line 629): Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, ]  instead.

ERROR: sounds.tbl(line 629):
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, ]  instead.

File: /Users/cliff.gordon/fs2_open_3_6_14_RC6/projects/Xcode/../../code/parse/parselo.cpp
Line: 260
Future debug output directed to: /Users/pabloparedes/Library/FS2_Open/data/fs2_open.log
 

Not quite sure what the hell is wrong... :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on May 16, 2012, 06:50:07 pm
Although for me, first problem is music disappearing from time to time, from mission to mission.

Looks like it's not just me.  It might be an FSO bug and not a BP bug.

It's been a while since I've seen so many bugs in semi-official releases. I understand that RCs are not Finals, but it looks as if there was no testing involved at all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cyborg17 on May 16, 2012, 06:59:11 pm
It's been a while since I've seen so many bugs in semi-official releases. I understand that RCs are not Finals, but it looks as if there was no testing involved at all.

In all fairness, I feel like people were reluctant to report this one because of the idea that it could be corrupted files.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 16, 2012, 10:24:32 pm
Eagle: your install is borked, though I can understand that it's not obvious why.

To work properly, you need to have files in the following locations:

All BP2 files in /FreeSpace2/blueplanet2
All BP1 files in /FreeSpace2/blueplanet
All MediaVPs files in /FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612 (where they are, correctly)

It looks like you put the blueplanet and blueplanet2 files in a Blue Planet folder, which will unfortunately break the dependency chain. (I know, it's dumb.)

I'm a little worried about your video card. ALSO, you have a loose file -

Found root pack '/Applications/FreeSpace2/Blue Planet/blueplanet2/bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0xb50d55b7

This is a Blue Planet 1 file and belongs in blueplanet, not blueplanet2.

These should solve your issue. If you continue to have problems just generate and post another log. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Sensus on May 17, 2012, 03:21:18 am
Don't go near warships if you don't have to - pay close attention to your mission objectives.
usually it is not real - dont go near to warships. Some shots you give in all situations  and it enough for dead. And for dead enough some shots from usual ships. Power of damage is very high.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 17, 2012, 03:37:52 am
And if you still got problems after what General Battuta suggested, please use the code tags for the next log, so the wall of text will be put into it's own little window, complete with it' own scroll-bar.
Either manually type [.code] log_text [/.code] (without the dots) or mark the log_text and click the little button left of the quote button.
Code: [Select]
This is how it would look like
Only with a scroll bar on the side due to the length of an actual log of course.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 17, 2012, 05:00:53 am
I'm a little worried about your video card.

The card is fine, it's just the Apple drivers that are ****.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 17, 2012, 07:01:05 am
Don't go near warships if you don't have to - pay close attention to your mission objectives.
usually it is not real - dont go near to warships. Some shots you give in all situations  and it enough for dead. And for dead enough some shots from usual ships. Power of damage is very high.

I'm sorry, I don't understand.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 17, 2012, 08:13:34 am
Sensus probably ran his original text through a translator. I think he was trying to support your quote by mentioning that, in almost all situations, hanging out near a hostile warship, or even a cruiser, for even a few moments, is more than enough to reduce your ship to scrap metal since their defensive weapons do a lot of damage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 17, 2012, 11:05:41 am
Entirely true of ships equipped with Standard Flak, like the GTC Cho in Collateral Damage.  You don't get the hell away from it, and it will turn you into swiss cheese ridiculously quickly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 17, 2012, 12:06:09 pm
Standard flak is ridiculously overpowered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 17, 2012, 02:11:08 pm
I want a Deimos loaded with Standard Flak and ULTRA AAAs in R2.  Use it in the same way as Mr. Cuddles.  Call it Fluffy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 17, 2012, 04:41:51 pm
You want OP defenses for the Tevs ? Try the Aegis. Diomedes with TAG beams that trigger a wave of Trebs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 17, 2012, 06:15:34 pm
Or anything with TerPulse, holy ****
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Eagle1oh7 on May 17, 2012, 06:18:40 pm
Okay, got it all fixed and played.  Thanks for the help! Now it does seem that the game is pretty difficult, I'm playing on medium difficulty.  It took me about 5 tries or so to beat stage with the Cho and now I know what it feels like to get shot at by Trebuchets, talk about intense action, especially when TAGed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 18, 2012, 03:47:44 am
Quote from: Your cue to fly like crazy
HOSTILE TAG ACTIVE

Standard Flak has always been a major pain. Among the flak series (the others being Heavy and Long Range), it has the fastest refire rate (about twice that of the others, I think), which more or less offsets its lower damage per shot.


Or anything with TerPulse, holy ****

One-hit-kill?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 18, 2012, 05:17:39 am
Or anything with TerPulse, holy ****
One-hit-kill?
Three and a half on most fighters, actually. 4 or 5 for heavy fighters & bombers (if I got the figures right from memory).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on May 18, 2012, 07:58:47 am
Quote from: Your cue to fly like crazy
HOSTILE TAG ACTIVE

Standard Flak has always been a major pain. Among the flak series (the others being Heavy and Long Range), it has the fastest refire rate (about twice that of the others, I think), which more or less offsets its lower damage per shot.
Also, whatever you do, do not focus your shields toward the attacking warship while being targeted by flak. A lot of the flak projectiles detonate beside or behind you, and you will die.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on May 18, 2012, 09:13:49 am
I always imagined the successor of Flak would be some kind of energy or plasma blast shockwave, maximizing the chance of hitting the target with its large surface. A sort of flat bubble cut in half. It'd be impenetrable by missiles and bombs also, making it a strong capital ship defense. But that's no fun for a game. :P

Bit like:

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9601/flakfuture.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on May 18, 2012, 09:30:40 am
But that's no fun for a game. :P
The horror that is the Phased Shockwave Generator. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on May 18, 2012, 09:55:10 am
But that's no fun for a game. :P
The horror that is the Phased Shockwave Generator. :P

Had to google for that. The idea came after playing Tyrian on my iPhone, the sonic cannon blasts resemble a split bubble.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 18, 2012, 11:43:39 am
Ah, the Sonic Wave. Forever a devastating weapon regardless of whether it's Trent or Microsol using it. Alternate fire makes it shoot four gigantic waves forward at maximum Level, making it one of the most versatile and devastating rear weapons you'll ever find in the game.

Speaking of shockwaves, is it possible to create shockwaves that can wipe out a cluster of warheads at once?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 18, 2012, 12:11:11 pm
Yes. And they already exist. In retail.

It's called EMP Missile.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 18, 2012, 12:17:45 pm
Thanks to recent SCP additions we can now create flak and bomb shockwaves which deal area damage to warheads.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on May 18, 2012, 12:24:26 pm
Thanks to recent SCP additions we can now create flak and bomb shockwaves which deal area damage to warheads.

Could this be causing some of the extra damage to the frigates in Delenda Est?  If a Tev bomb gets to close and detonates, it would also touch off their in flight missiles, and any other warheads potentially close enough to damage them and set off more, which damages and sets off more, etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 18, 2012, 12:51:04 pm
Seems unlikely. Shockwave damage to warheads should only appear when specifically enabled in the weapon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 18, 2012, 09:29:10 pm
Yes. And they already exist. In retail.

It's called EMP Missile.

...I should have known. :blah:

Does it work in practice?


Could this be causing some of the extra damage to the frigates in Delenda Est?  If a Tev bomb gets to close and detonates, it would also touch off their in flight missiles, and any other warheads potentially close enough to damage them and set off more, which damages and sets off more, etc.

On a related note, imagine flying into a maelstrom of Shivan warhead shockwaves... :drevil:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on May 18, 2012, 09:46:02 pm
Yes. And they already exist. In retail.

It's called EMP Missile.

...I should have known. :blah:

Does it work in practice?
Yes it does, though oddly. On a mission that I slapped together just now, I hit the first bomb of a salvo of 12 and it destroyed ten of the other 11 bombs that were behind it, but not the bomb that I actually hit with the missile. The bomb closest to the one I tried to shoot down also survived.

Quote
On a related note, imagine flying into a maelstrom of Shivan warhead shockwaves... :drevil:
I would imagine that unless you have no shields it would do absolutely nothing but make the ship shake around.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 18, 2012, 09:59:04 pm
I would imagine that unless you have no shields it would do absolutely nothing but make the ship shake around.

BP likes to make torps hurt fighters, I believe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on May 18, 2012, 10:02:06 pm
I thought the Director's Cut of AoA nerfed those shockwaves so they wouldn't vaporize fully-shielded/armored ships?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on May 18, 2012, 11:04:16 pm
I thought this is why we had long-range machine guns that double as an AMS (Anti-Missile System).

... anyway, I'm getting a major headache with Delenda Est. I figure Beta 1 and 2 are always invincible on lower difficulties, and when it comes time to disarm the two capital ships' beams marked by F9 and F10, I send them (having the first primary bank to have Scalpels, and swapping one set of Slammers for Paveways) to deal with the F9, and I deal with the F10...

... either I'm a crap pilot (I am HORRID at using the Archer because of massive recoil, so I use the Scalpel and Paveways), or something unintended happens, as by the end, the Katana has about 9% AP left, and when the Imperieuse shows up, the Katana dies first and I get a game over. Aren't one of the UEF frigates scripted to die?

It's always the Katana or Altan Orde that frequently dies. I feel like I'm working too hard to earn an ending.

And a stupid question I'm gonna ask and gonna see shot down, making me look like a clown:

+ Are we ever going to see stealth bombers in any future installments? I mean, we have stealth fighters, but not bombers. I looked in one of the single missions in the tech room and saw the UEF has a stealth fighter that kinda resembles the fictional F-19 from MicroProse. Seeing how bombers are always sighted far off, and they launch their ordinance at a range an interceptor with Trebuchets can catch, I would have thought the idea of having a stealth bomber come in and drop ordinance point-blank. (I was gonna suggest an abominable cross between the SR-71 Blackbird and B-2 Spirit.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 18, 2012, 11:08:50 pm
There's something in the 3.6.14 RC candidates which makes the Katana and Altan Orde take much more damage than they're supposed to, rendering that mission insanely hard. It's not you, there's actually something that has changed in the mission balance since it was designed and released. It's been giving us fits trying to track it down; right now we think it's a bug in the armor code.

You can feel free to cheat them invincible until the Imperieuse arrives.

Trick with the Archer: it does not actually have any recoil, only screen shake. Wait for the shake to die down and your reticle will be right back where it started.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Alex Heartnet on May 18, 2012, 11:29:00 pm
Or you could edit the mission files and give the Katana and Alten Orde a SMALL boost above 100% hull. Sounds like 125% would be enough to get you through the mission, and it's not enough of a boost to break the event at the end.  But on this particular mission, don't set the Katana's hull integrity to 999%.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on May 18, 2012, 11:51:00 pm
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I was gonna just go for the "fail five times and skip" option, but my ego wants me to see this through.

... it's sad, even on Very Easy, the Katana and Altan Orde die as fast as even Easy or Medium. I even read the issue on the RC5 thread about how basically the mission is forced to a near unwinnable situation.

I would have thought you'd have put in the Recommendations tab, "if these ships keep dying on you, the team's working on it. Your best option right now is to cheat or skip."

And funnily enough, I was able to get the Ace medal for this campaign... and got it with Admiral Petrarch's voice.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on May 18, 2012, 11:58:37 pm
The mission worked on release of the campaign.  The release of 3.6.14 RCs is what's managed to break it.  The Recommendations are part of the campaign, and would require another release to either change or update back to working.

They probably would if they could do it without repackaging the whole campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Trivial Psychic on May 19, 2012, 12:20:16 am
Not that I've played this campaign in some time, but you are certain that its solely down to 3.6.14-RC builds and not the WiH Pt.1 upgrade, or the combination of the two?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on May 19, 2012, 12:26:36 am
Just ~K the Carthage if you're having problems with the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on May 19, 2012, 12:27:20 am
Just ~K the Carthage if you're having problems with the mission.

Yeah. What could possibly go wrong? It's what the objective is, after all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 19, 2012, 04:58:20 am
And funnily enough, I was able to get the Ace medal for this campaign... and got it with Admiral Petrarch's voice.

It could probably be rectified easily, but it's probably also a minor issue so...


Just ~K the Carthage if you're having problems with the mission.

Yeah. What could possibly go wrong? It's what the objective is, after all.

(http://koti.welho.com/ahesso/Animation/Bunnypancake.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2012, 06:43:34 am
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I was gonna just go for the "fail five times and skip" option, but my ego wants me to see this through.

... it's sad, even on Very Easy, the Katana and Altan Orde die as fast as even Easy or Medium. I even read the issue on the RC5 thread about how basically the mission is forced to a near unwinnable situation.

I would have thought you'd have put in the Recommendations tab, "if these ships keep dying on you, the team's working on it. Your best option right now is to cheat or skip."

We didn't even know about the bug until relatively recently.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on May 19, 2012, 06:48:12 am
I always imagined the successor of Flak would be some kind of energy or plasma blast shockwave, maximizing the chance of hitting the target with its large surface. A sort of flat bubble cut in half. It'd be impenetrable by missiles and bombs also, making it a strong capital ship defense. But that's no fun for a game. :P

Bit like:

(http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/9601/flakfuture.jpg)

Hadouken!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on May 19, 2012, 10:21:19 am
Hadouken!!!

(http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/images/Trebuchet.gif)

C-C-C-COMBO BREAKER!

Okay enough. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 19, 2012, 11:00:47 am
Burst Flak with Standard Flak refire rate.  Do it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 20, 2012, 01:14:41 am
I say increase the projectile limit somehow so that we can have some real fun...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 20, 2012, 03:41:13 am
I thought the Director's Cut of AoA nerfed those shockwaves so they wouldn't vaporize fully-shielded/armored ships?
There is a difference between instantly vaporising and hurting.
In original AoA a shivan megabomb's shockwave destroyed a full health and fully shielded Aurora at 100 m if my memory doesn't exaggerate all those frustrating death'.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on May 20, 2012, 07:18:47 am
So get hit at 101 meters and not die. The difference is distance at this point.
And I can't remember a shockwave causing severe damage unless I had no shields ever since.
That must mean something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 20, 2012, 07:23:53 am
I just know that taking a SSM strike when piloting a uhlan ends with your death, other than that, I don't  think I've ever been outright killed by bombs in BP, even in AoA r1.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 20, 2012, 10:09:18 am
Then you were either very lucky or very carefull.
The most frustrating instance of "you were killed by a bomb shockwave" was in Forced Entry. I fought through the mission perfectly, got every objective covered, disarmed all four Ravana beams. All I had to do was, return to the Temeraire and sit still till the mission ends, but of course the Ravana had to shoot down one of the Temeraires torpedoes right beside me, vaporizing me in the process. :banghead:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kosh on May 20, 2012, 12:40:28 pm
Granted its been a while but the last time I played WiH I had a number of unfortunate friendly fire incidents with Darts, namely my wingmen would end up shooting me in the back with them when we're all chasing a Tev.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 20, 2012, 02:41:35 pm
i don't think i ever got a single hit with any of the UEF swarm missiles, so i stopped using them.  javelins for dogfighting and whatever special purpose missiles the mission called for.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on May 20, 2012, 02:57:04 pm
Then you were either very lucky or very carefull.
The most frustrating instance of "you were killed by a bomb shockwave" was in Forced Entry. I fought through the mission perfectly, got every objective covered, disarmed all four Ravana beams. All I had to do was, return to the Temeraire and sit still till the mission ends, but of course the Ravana had to shoot down one of the Temeraires torpedoes right beside me, vaporizing me in the process. :banghead:
Those are truly the most annoying deaths. I just played through the WCS mod recently and was killed in a similar way (except it was an explosion from the last ship in the game blowing up) after a 40 minute dogfighting spree. Took me 3 days to start the mission again.  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 20, 2012, 03:11:16 pm
i don't think i ever got a single hit with any of the UEF swarm missiles, so i stopped using them.  javelins for dogfighting and whatever special purpose missiles the mission called for.

You missed out, Darts are awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 20, 2012, 03:16:52 pm
I have trouble hitting anything with Darts. They are fantastic for putting enemy fighters on the defensive though.

Paveways are extremely useful, especially in Aristea. I'd use slammers, but I find it hard to time when to set off the warhead. For all other occasions, hellfires own.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 20, 2012, 04:24:08 pm
The first time playing through WiH, I killed nearly everything on the field with slammers.  I'd get entire wings with one double shot.  After that though, it got a lot harder to use them it seems.  I could never seem to get multiple kills with them again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 20, 2012, 04:37:25 pm
Yeah the UEF swarm missiles are pretty worthless for me.  The slammer I think it is (the one that explodes into a bunch of smaller missiels, i never use it) is way too slow, I try to launch it at a range where it wont need to maneuver to hit the enemy (cause its so damn slow turning too) but when I launch my wingmen get ahead of me and scatter the enemy wing before I can explode it.  And when I very rarely manage to pop it near enemies still in a tight formation, most of the missiles just totally destroy a single fighter.

So yeah, pretty worthless at least to my experience.

e:  That heatseeker that is kinda like the tornado is really really nice though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Legate Damar on May 20, 2012, 04:40:28 pm
I have had great success with Slammers. The key is to launch them relatively close to approaching enemy fighters, and then dive out of the way if they keep coming, or use reverse thrust.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on May 20, 2012, 08:33:19 pm
One of the things about Slammers is that to inflict the most damage among the most enemies, target the most forward ship first, or target the most clustered wing (In "Delenda Est" on past experience, most bomber formations tended to be tightly packed in a T-formation or diamond, while fighter formations tend to be spread wedge, especially interceptors). This is when the targeting cam was very helpful.

Other missiles... I've had bad experience with the Dirk (aspect-lock swarm), but the Dart was very helpful. Paveways were the most useful missile. Needed a subsystem gone? One or two Paveways made one less problem. The most accurate missile I've used is the Javelin.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 20, 2012, 09:47:41 pm
The only problem I ever had with slammers is accidentally killing myself when I ran out of Hellfires and cycled at point-blank with a capship ;_;
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 21, 2012, 01:46:58 am
Are you guys manually setting off the slammers or letting them go off by themselves?

I dunno. Hellfires are sort of my "solve everything' missile.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 21, 2012, 11:06:38 am
My most successful way of using Slammers is dual-firing when I'm about 400-500m from the target and detonating almost immediately after launch.  At longer range, I've had issues getting more than one or two kills on formations of anything smaller than Boanerges bombers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 21, 2012, 11:34:50 am
Personally, I've had the most success when detonating them 300 to 400 from the target no matter where I am firing from.
In fact, my personal opening move for Delenda Est consists of waiting until the Erinyes flight drops in, then boosting forward until I am in extreme Slammer range of the incoming Rhea flight, then reverse ABing while watching the range readouts. Has been rather successful so far (because if you kill the Rhea flight, the escorts will immediately turn away and run towards the second wave of that flight, leaving their backsides rather unprotected).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 21, 2012, 12:44:37 pm
delenda este is easy on all difficulties until the altan Orde and katana explode for no discernible reason

I guess I'll just need to get used to using slammers, since they are one of the best missiles in the game. Seems reverse thrust (or staring backwards while flying away) is a good tactic to keep enemies off you while you monitor warhead progress. Up until now, I usually swap them out for grimlers to get something more familiar, or to avoid getting splashed by friendlies.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 21, 2012, 04:38:40 pm
Grimlers are a fine weapon, I just feel they lack the asskickery of Slammers :P

Besides, Slammers are a good last-ditch weapon when you get swarmed. Sure, you get a bit of splash damage, but the others will get far more of it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on May 21, 2012, 04:50:13 pm
I have never actually seen a Grimler fire i must confess, and i think a Shrike only once when i tried it in a test mission. I like accuracy and power so the Javelin suited me well; the only other ones i really used were Hellfires, paveways and Slammers, which took me a while to get the nack of but when i did.... oooooooh (nothing quite like watching four Perseus taken out at the same time, especially for a guy like me who can barely fly straight :lol:).

On the topic of loadouts actually, brief diverge [b**** mode] Is there a reason the scalpel is no longer allowed for the Kent's secondary bank? You've barred by 2nd Kent weapon option of choice (with 4 Rapiers in the 1st you don't need any other weapon for combat, so it's a perfect slot for the scalpel) *evil monkey finger* [/b**** mode]

And forgive the brief backtrack, but people do understand that someone Has. To. Make. a hadouken primary weapon now, dont you? Too amazing an idea not to make. (would myself but no way am i good enough art-wise).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 21, 2012, 05:12:52 pm
Whoa, what? I thought the Scalpel was supposed to fit there in its role as a shield breaker.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on May 21, 2012, 05:17:59 pm
Well actually now i look at the .tbl file it seems to say it can mount it. Yet i remember it not working when i tried, wierd. Shall just go check.

EDIT: Confirmed, if you try it says the bank won't accept it my end. ..And i see why on second look, the Kent has three weapon bank entries in the .tbl. The 2nd section doesen't allow the Scalpel but the unused third does.

EDIT: Then again the Kent being buggy is canon of course. :lol: 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 21, 2012, 07:34:44 pm
Confirmed on my end too.  The Scalpel can't be mounted in the Kent's cockpit guns.  This one's an easy fix, at least.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 21, 2012, 08:05:40 pm
Besides, Slammers are a good last-ditch weapon when you get swarmed. Sure, you get a bit of splash damage, but the others will get far more of it.

On insane, slammer panic shots seem pretty binary. You either don't get hit by the blast, or you do and are dead.

Ever since the last patch, scalpels can't be put into the 2 gun slot on kentauris. It was a strange change, since that's exactly what I did every single time when playing the initial release of WiH. I thought it was a balance change to keep the Kent from being so powerful.

(As a side note, is the rapier strictly better than any other dogfight gun? It has the best dps, best range (?), and almost the highest rof of all UEF primaries)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 21, 2012, 09:00:28 pm
Yeah, I kind of assumed it was a balance change, too. Caught me kind of offguard but it's not like there are any disable objectives so fragile that you can't use Rapiers anyway.

I believe that Mauls have the best dogfight range, but the ROF is too low for it to be particularly useful.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 22, 2012, 06:26:07 am
The Vulcan has worse DPS, so unless you're a marksman, you're not making your plays easier using it.

I used to use the Vulcan myself, but the low DPS and my poor aiming skills, combined with some persuasion from Snail, eventually made me switch to the Maul.

As much as I acknowledge the usefulness of Slammers, I don't like using them. Javelin missiles are my choice of missile, combined with Maul or Rapier fire.

I wonder how much better the Lao Tze's Cavalier will be compared to the Rapier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 22, 2012, 06:31:26 am
The Cavalier used to be worse than the Rapier, pre-update. I heard it had been buffed, but I don't know how much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 22, 2012, 11:41:23 am
A lot of the weapons are getting rejiggered for R2 in one way or another. I wish the R1 weapon set had been a little more interesting, but like FreeSpace 2 it has a few very strong optimal performers. At least the missile loadouts are a bit more interesting, though the Dirk is a disappointment.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 22, 2012, 12:30:31 pm
The Vulcan has worse DPS, so unless you're a marksman, you're not making your plays easier using it.

I used to use the Vulcan myself, but the low DPS and my poor aiming skills, combined with some persuasion from Snail, eventually made me switch to the Maul.

As much as I acknowledge the usefulness of Slammers, I don't like using them. Javelin missiles are my choice of missile, combined with Maul or Rapier fire.

I wonder how much better the Lao Tze's Cavalier will be compared to the Rapier.

In theory the vulcan is not bad at spraying down bombs, especially when wings like to launch them 8 at a time. (I find bombers like to dual salvo right before breaking off) Vulcans are basically free in terms of energy, which is incredibly important on all UEF craft, where you basically have to shunt 100% energy to guns in between/in the middle of fights to recharge reserves.

Might as well stick vulcans on the 2x bank for kentauris. 6 rapiers has exact same dps as 4 rapiers, though of course single shot burst damage goes way up for 6.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 22, 2012, 12:51:57 pm
The Vulcan has worse DPS, so unless you're a marksman, you're not making your plays easier using it.
I meant that the Maul's ROF prevents its range from being a real advantage in a dogfight, not that the Maul isn't a good dogfight weapon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on May 23, 2012, 04:25:24 am
The Vulcan has worse DPS, so unless you're a marksman, you're not making your plays easier using it.
I meant that the Maul's ROF prevents its range from being a real advantage in a dogfight, not that the Maul isn't a good dogfight weapon.

The Maul can eat up a lot of juice. I hate to call it a niche situational item, but the only time it became useful was at the end of Act One against the SOC Operatives, because the Vulcan was fracking useless against Erinyes-class shields. I prefer the Vulcan and Rapier any day.

That's one of the harsher lessons of FreeSpace 2 for me: know how much juice you have, recharge, and allocate (I learned that the hard way above Medium for stock FS2 and Derelict, and I wonder what the difficulty curve for this mod is).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 23, 2012, 05:34:25 pm
Juice shouldn't be too much of a problem if you make any use at all of your ETS
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on May 23, 2012, 06:16:12 pm
Juice shouldn't be too much of a problem if you make any use at all of your ETS
Is this the part where someone starts a dick-measuring contest about which difficulty level we play on?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on May 23, 2012, 06:22:25 pm
Shouldn't be, because I generally play Very Hard. I had a lot of trouble with weapon energy before I discovered the joys of ETS via a video Goober posted. . . five or so years ago.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 23, 2012, 06:34:30 pm
Not to sound contemptuous, but it seems to me that the majority of the UEF fighters were designed for the player to micromanage ETS a little across any difficulty. Guns, shields, and burners all have good capacity and **** recharge-to-full times compared to GTVA fighters, so pushing around energy as needed seems to make dogfights a fair bit easier. You don't have to play with the ETS, but it sure helps.

(btw, there is no "very hard". Only Very Easy, Easy, Medium, Hard, Insane.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 23, 2012, 07:41:29 pm
Thats just because he is lying.  I kinda figured thats the whole idea behind dick measuring.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 23, 2012, 09:41:24 pm
Thats just because he is lying.  I kinda figured thats the whole idea behind dick measuring.

Whoa, what the heck? Please keep it civil. There's no call for this kind of personal attack over a video game mod.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 24, 2012, 12:51:54 am
Um, I kinda figured it would be taken as a joke.  I wasn't the person to introduce dick measuring to the conversation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 24, 2012, 06:17:13 am
Shouldn't be, because I generally play Very Hard. I had a lot of trouble with weapon energy before I discovered the joys of ETS via a video Goober posted. . . five or so years ago.

Don't forget the Shield<->Laser function. May be more of a gimmick than a really useful function, but that can be used to provide an extra boost to either gun or shield energy when you need it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on May 24, 2012, 06:22:25 am
I think Laser<->Shields would be more useful if it transfered more energy per button press, like about the amount used in the Xwing series games.  Currently I just hold down scroll-lock as my "panic" button and forget about shields to lasers :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 24, 2012, 09:15:31 am
I think the "laser<->shield function" is what the other refered to as the ETS (Energy Transfer System).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on May 24, 2012, 10:22:11 am
I think the "laser<->shield function" is what the other referred to as the ETS (Energy Transfer System).
No, there are a couple of buttons that will convert shield energy to gun energy and gun energy to shield energy.  I believe by default they are 'Scroll Lock' and 'pause/break'.

The ETS is about recharge rate of the gun/shield/afterburner. The convert buttons actually move the energy stored in one to the other.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on May 24, 2012, 12:00:08 pm
I spam laser -> shield SO much. Especially amid flak.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 24, 2012, 01:48:36 pm
I just empty energy from guns. Afterburner reserves matter just as much as shields (if not more so) if you're getting shot at.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 24, 2012, 05:12:56 pm
Let me just say I had no idea that existed.  I would probably die a lot less if I knew how to dump my other reserves into my shields as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 24, 2012, 05:41:06 pm
I think the "laser<->shield function" is what the other referred to as the ETS (Energy Transfer System).
No, there are a couple of buttons that will convert shield energy to gun energy and gun energy to shield energy.  I believe by default they are 'Scroll Lock' and 'pause/break'.

The ETS is about recharge rate of the gun/shield/afterburner. The convert buttons actually move the energy stored in one to the other.
Sorry about my confusion on the point, my FS2 is in german, so I'm not 100% sure about the english terms. I really thought the ETS was the actual transfering of the energy, as the name would suggest, rather than changing the recharge rates.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 24, 2012, 06:13:02 pm
Let me just say I had no idea that existed.  I would probably die a lot less if I knew how to dump my other reserves into my shields as well.

If you're referring to what I said, I didn't mean you could take your primary and afterburner reserves and move them around. I simply meant that throwing out all your gun energy on the ETS is good for survival.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 24, 2012, 06:14:23 pm
Now I'm getting confused, because you can take your primary reserves and move them around. Maybe you can do this with afterburner too, I don't know.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 24, 2012, 07:05:50 pm
When we say reserves, do we mean that curved bar on the right side of the target indicator bracket? If so, my mind is blown.

edit: WHAT IS THIS MADNESS MY MIND IS BLOWN

Can someone fill me in on the mechanics of the system? Is sloshing around guns and  shields energy 100% efficient? We don't lose energy in the process? What's the conversion rate between gun and shield energy?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 24, 2012, 07:16:34 pm
:D

Have fun, it's a super useful mechanic.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 24, 2012, 07:23:37 pm
Alright, so transfers back and forth are 100% efficient. Conversion rates seem terrible. You can empty a full bar of gun energy and not get much shielding back, but this might be fighter dependent. I only tried on a herc 1. Conversion speed is great for guns->shields, but terrible for shields->guns. Still, I can't believe I've played this game for years without knowing you could do this.

Does AI use this ship function? Fury AI or otherwise?

On a Ulysses, ~4.5 bars of gun power = full shields
On an Ares, ~3.5 bars of gun power = full shields

Seems to be fighter dependent, (so there is a fixed ratio used between actual points in gun power and shield power) but if a full bar of gun energy gives you about a full shield quadrant back, that's nothing to sneeze at. I only wish shields-> guns was faster to help sustained kayser or maxim fire.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on May 24, 2012, 08:22:16 pm
Sorry about my confusion on the point, my FS2 is in german, so I'm not 100% sure about the english terms. I really thought the ETS was the actual transferring of the energy, as the name would suggest, rather than changing the recharge rates.
No problem.  The usage of transfer in ETS is rather obtuse even to a native English speaker.  I assume the transfer that :v: was referring to is the continuous transfer of energy from the power source (reactor, generator, etc) to the three primary consumers of energy in a fighter; the weapons, the shields, and the engines.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 25, 2012, 05:18:48 am
The sad thing is that it doesn't seem to work on multiplayer. I would have died less if it worked better there.

I've always wondered why :v: didn't mention something like this in the tutorials, when they covered almost everything else.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on May 25, 2012, 08:50:49 am
I've always wondered why :v: didn't mention something like this in the tutorials, when they covered almost everything else.

 :wtf: lolwut? The ETS system were mentioned in some TSM (forgot which one exactly) modules early in the main campaign of FS2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 25, 2012, 08:59:55 am
They didn't mention some of the more intricate commands because 1) they didn't want to overload the player with a lot of information in one mission (and making two TSMs about the ETS alone is silly) 2) FS and FS2 came out in an environment full of space sims, their intended audience were space sim fans, and since these mechanics are nothing out of the ordinary, they probably figured that the real pro space sim players would find these controls and figure them out by themselves.

Also note that the FS2 main campaign at least does not require that much micromanagement.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 25, 2012, 09:27:06 am
Hm...just a thought regarding the Karuna Mk2...
Since the UEF can't afford a long drydock refit for existing Karunas...would a certain Karuna, which was last seen floating around a certain sun, not be good choice?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 25, 2012, 09:38:38 am
A ship reduced to barely more than scrap metal and molten pieces, probably far beyond repairs, bathed in radiations, which reactor is probably going to give up the ghost in a significantly destructive way, stranded in a not really safe nor easily accessible zone of space ? Yeah... riiiight. The perfect choice indeed... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on May 25, 2012, 09:45:26 am
Also note that the FS2 main campaign at least does not require that much micromanagement.

I managed to play most of the campaigns available on Medium without significant use of the ETS (except, the occasional shift to more power to engines to escape a sticky situation, or added power to shields during a bombing run).

So I think extreme micromanagement of the ETS isn't at all necessary.

*Cybertrance thinks this hype over micromanagement of the ETS is silly*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 25, 2012, 09:48:13 am
Also note that the FS2 main campaign at least does not require that much micromanagement.

I managed to play most of the campaigns available on Medium without significant use of the ETS (except, the occasional shift to more power to engines to escape a sticky situation, or added power to shields during a bombing run).

So I think extreme micromanagement of the ETS isn't at all necessary.

*Cybertrance thinks this hype over micromanagement of the ETS is silly*

It's not, it's insanely powerful. Being able to send weapons power directly to shields is literally the difference between life or death a lot of times.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 25, 2012, 10:02:44 am
A ship reduced to barely more than scrap metal and molten pieces, probably far beyond repairs, bathed in radiations, which reactor is probably going to give up the ghost in a significantly destructive way, stranded in a not really safe nor easily accessible zone of space ? Yeah... riiiight. The perfect choice indeed... :rolleyes:
Well, no need to be sarcastic Mat.
It was just a thought and who would add such a ship into the table etc not to be used, I just came up with an option, how to explain the appearance of such a ship, well, the Fedayen(hell, how is it spelled?) will most likely have one or two.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on May 25, 2012, 10:20:39 am
A ship reduced to barely more than scrap metal and molten pieces, probably far beyond repairs, bathed in radiations, which reactor is probably going to give up the ghost in a significantly destructive way, stranded in a not really safe nor easily accessible zone of space ? Yeah... riiiight. The perfect choice indeed... :rolleyes:

Well during  Sunglare, that certain ship didn't appear to be molten, useless scrap...It was still fairly functional as it was able to atleast sustain the crew till the Fedayeen arrived. Considering the level of technology, removing he radiations shouldn't be such a chore. I think it would be the perfect candidate definitely better than building one from scratch...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 25, 2012, 10:42:27 am
who would add such a ship into the table etc not to be used
/me looks at retail tables for FS1, ST and FS2
Yeah, right. Nobody in their right mind would add unused stuff in their tables, just because they'd like it to be there.


Well during Sunglare, that certain ship didn't appear to be molten, useless scrap...It was still fairly functional as it was able to atleast sustain the crew till the Fedayeen arrived.
Wait what.
It had critical hull breaches all over the place, more than half the subsystems were history, hell it was going to crash on the frigging sun. I don't have the mission file in front of me but I'm pretty sure its reactor was trashed after the crash jump. 80% of the crew was dead due to damage and radiations. That's not exactly my definiton of "still fairly functional and able to sustain the crew".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 25, 2012, 11:43:52 am
It is even in the techroom, but maybe this was an oversight.
And 80% of the crew were incapacitated and in critical condition, well, most of them would've been dead, yes, but hey...unless I get a snipped, that the Indus was left drifting into the sun...
Bad example, I know, but in WW2 they repaired some ships and to see the Indus after the beating at Saturn would most likely rise the spirits like "Yeah, we took a beating, but we're stronger then before."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on May 25, 2012, 12:26:46 pm
Probably the most important factor in whether the Indus is recoverable or not is the composition of her hull; this determines which activation products are formed by neutron capture and charged particle capture near the sun. Depending on what they are, the time the Indus needs to cool before radiation reaches near-background levels could range from minutes to millennia.

Both the UEF and the GTVA have shown that they're pretty good at taking critically damaged ships and getting them back in fighting condition within a few days/weeks. Recall also that the Carthage received her upgrades after being pretty badly gutted in combat during the SSI.

The Masyaf says that they're sending repair teams to the Indus, rather than just sending over transports to evacuate everyone. Assuming the Masyaf's captain is not an idiot or a lunatic, he wouldn't put his engineering crew at risk trying to repair an irreparable ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 25, 2012, 12:32:02 pm
The Masyaf says that they're sending repair teams to the Indus, rather than just sending over transports to evacuate everyone. Assuming the Masyaf's captain is not an idiot or a lunatic, he wouldn't put his engineering crew at risk trying to repair an irreparable ship.
It sounded more like "get someone to hold the thing together long enough to evacuate everyone".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on May 25, 2012, 12:36:42 pm
The Masyaf says that they're sending repair teams to the Indus, rather than just sending over transports to evacuate everyone. Assuming the Masyaf's captain is not an idiot or a lunatic, he wouldn't put his engineering crew at risk trying to repair an irreparable ship.
It sounded more like "get someone to hold the thing together long enough to evacuate everyone".
Well, so it sounded for you ;)
For us it sounded like "we'll get you and the Indus out of here."

Edit: On a complete unrelated note to my Karuna Mk2 thing...
I'm just replaying the campaign...in the mission Ken... there is one line spoken by Steele "Check your six etc"
Is it possible, that Ken has told Laporte to destroy the GTVA and Steele has some other "Ken" which told him to destroy the UEF? I mean he say's "They can't get in if you lock them out"...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 25, 2012, 10:55:56 pm
The Indus was two hours away from "the point of no return", so I would assume that it was still repairable when the Masyaf got to it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 25, 2012, 11:55:53 pm
I have doubts the war will last long enough for the Indus to be repaired, even if it could.  How long does the UEF have now?  A few weeks, maybe a month?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 26, 2012, 12:13:14 am
The Indus was two hours away from "the point of no return", so I would assume that it was still repairable when the Masyaf got to it.

I always thought this meant the amount of gravity experienced by the ship would exceed any propulsion systems the Indus could conjure, so it was impossible to rescue the ship from the gravity well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 26, 2012, 07:23:52 am
i've always assumed the Masyaf was just going to tow it out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 26, 2012, 12:23:43 pm
Given that the Masyaf is Fedayeen, there's always the possibility that they just rescued Laporte and let the rest of the Indus crew go spiraling into the sun. Just sayin'.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 26, 2012, 12:32:03 pm
Well, it's not like they're lacking for room when 80% of the crew has now become cadaveric and in no need of evacuation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 26, 2012, 12:46:57 pm
Incapacitated, not dead
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 26, 2012, 01:59:08 pm
Between the severity of radiation poisoning and the medicine shortages in the UEF, "incapacitated" is the same as "dead," in the Indus' case. Barring Laporte and her Nagari-armor, they'll be lucky to see the end of the war from a hospice bed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 26, 2012, 02:59:02 pm
Refresh my memory. Are people incapacitated/unconscious from heat stroke or radiation exposure? Because if it was radiation exposure, there isnt much you can do for radiation sickness at doses that knock you out after a few hours. In fact, I'm pretty sure you'd be dead a couple hours after passing out once you don't have much useful DNA to speak of.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on May 26, 2012, 03:08:15 pm
Radiation, that's for sure. I don't think heat trouble are mentioned anywhere in Sunglare fiction/briefing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 26, 2012, 03:36:12 pm
Thermal pressure is mentioned as being what'll actually kill the Indus.

Quote
Check your radiation badges every five minutes. We have less than two hours before we reach lethal intensities. Shortly thereafter, thermal pressure will exceed hull tolerances and the Indus will disintegrate.

Also, the Masyaf arrives 38 minutes before the point of no return, not two hours, according to the text at the actual mission start.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 26, 2012, 04:15:56 pm
Yeah... If you're passing out from radiation alone, you're invariably going to be dead. No treatments short of a Lazarus Project could save someone at that point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Damage on May 26, 2012, 06:37:44 pm
An idea that just occurred to me, how badly off will the survivors be?  Is Laporte going to be suffering from radiation sickness for the rest of the campaign?  Will that limit her effectiveness as a pilot, or force her to take on more suicidal missions since she's dying anyway?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 27, 2012, 12:19:22 am
An idea that just occurred to me, how badly off will the survivors be?  Is Laporte going to be suffering from radiation sickness for the rest of the campaign?  Will that limit her effectiveness as a pilot, or force her to take on more suicidal missions since she's dying anyway?

Thats... a pretty good point.  The inevitable collapse of the UEF aside, R2 could be pretty grim...

e: that or they have an absurdly effective method of dealing with radiation damage and she will be totally fine, my money is on something to that effect now that i think on it...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on May 27, 2012, 01:48:06 am
Considering the amount of radiation the average warship/bomber/interceptor crew member/pilot deals with in close proximity in the form of nuclear yield missiles, I bet that some method of radiation treatment exists. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 27, 2012, 02:38:51 am
I would have thought that management was primarily through prevention/shielding. Once you're irradiated by huge doses, you're pretty much ****ed. If we want to stay realistic, I would venture to say that no medical treatment will ever be able to recover a patient from severe radiation poisoning. That would be akin to doing something to allow a computer program, after replacing/moving/deleting/adding to its binary data at random, to almost immediately be able to repair itself and run most of its original functions. On hardware you just sprayed water on. Yeah.... heavy doses of radiation is pretty devastating on life.

I guess if you backed up your mind and just downloaded yourself to a new body, you could save yourself. However, I have no idea how you could rapidly induce the formation of an entire backed-up connectome into a brain without outright killing it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 27, 2012, 06:14:18 am
To be precise, acute radiation poisoning first destroys the immune system (proliferating bone marrow and lymphatic cells), followed by the gastrointestinal lining (allowing gut flora to enter the bloodstream and cause sepsis). Recovery is dependent on the patient's ability, with the aid of blood transfusions and broad-spectrum antibiotics, to fight off the infection. Further radiation exposure destroys the cells of the liver, lungs (Simms), kidneys, and nervous system. Neurological symptoms invariably mean death.

So to get a measure of just how screwed the Indus crew is, going off US military projections, the Indus crew can look forward to several months of hospitalization with a mortality rate of upwards of 50% in the best case scenario.

I'm sure the UEF has made great advances in medicine over the past thousand years, but it still takes time to heal and medicine is in short supply. I'm sure their Magical☆Nagari Girl will get priority, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on May 27, 2012, 09:54:59 am
Mmh, yeah... wonder how far the UEF has advanced in the field of body cloning..
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 27, 2012, 10:10:17 am
No brain uploading or re-sleeving.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on May 27, 2012, 12:01:04 pm
Mental healing can do wonders.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Damage on May 27, 2012, 03:38:44 pm
I find it highly likely that Laporte will get some kind of preferential treatment (especially since she's a main character and all) but I'm going to stick with the notion that she's at least severely sick for the rest of her severely shortened natural life.  I find this convenient because it makes her (as a high-rated Nagari-sensitive human) a limited use weapon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 27, 2012, 10:57:58 pm
I find it highly likely that Laporte will get some kind of preferential treatment (especially since she's a main character and all) but I'm going to stick with the notion that she's at least severely sick for the rest of her severely shortened natural life.  I find this convenient because it makes her (as a high-rated Nagari-sensitive human) a limited use weapon.

That will probably piss the GTVA off more than anyone once they finally get their hands on her.

e: Assuming she doesn't die gloriously in fighter combat, that is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 28, 2012, 12:57:12 am
I find it highly likely that Laporte will get some kind of preferential treatment (especially since she's a main character and all) but I'm going to stick with the notion that she's at least severely sick for the rest of her severely shortened natural life.  I find this convenient because it makes her (as a high-rated Nagari-sensitive human) a limited use weapon.

That will probably piss the GTVA off more than anyone once they finally get their hands on her.

e: Assuming she doesn't die gloriously in fighter combat, that is.
That's if the GTVA wants anything to do with Project Nagari in the first place. You could probably interpret the "we will not be slaves" line in Ken as fear of being a pawn of the Vishnans as much as anything else.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 28, 2012, 02:28:50 am
I would have thought that management was primarily through prevention/shielding. Once you're irradiated by huge doses, you're pretty much ****ed. If we want to stay realistic, I would venture to say that no medical treatment will ever be able to recover a patient from severe radiation poisoning. That would be akin to doing something to allow a computer program, after replacing/moving/deleting/adding to its binary data at random, to almost immediately be able to repair itself and run most of its original functions. On hardware you just sprayed water on. Yeah.... heavy doses of radiation is pretty devastating on life.

I guess if you backed up your mind and just downloaded yourself to a new body, you could save yourself. However, I have no idea how you could rapidly induce the formation of an entire backed-up connectome into a brain without outright killing it.
Since they can project someone's mind into a fighter I suppose the Vishnans (and thus probably the Shivans too) could do exactly that and thus they could give the UEF the necessary knowledge if they really wanted to. But since Battuta already said there won't be a "brain-upwnloading" that thought doesn't really matter (at least not for WiH2).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on May 28, 2012, 11:11:45 am
Oh but statements of team members on the forum aren't necessarily canon. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 28, 2012, 01:41:06 pm
Its worth noting that you don't need to project someones 'mind' into a fighter to remote control it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 28, 2012, 01:42:07 pm
You don't, but when the guardian dies, your point of view stays on your fighter. It doesn't short out or something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 28, 2012, 02:18:40 pm
Well you WERE ejected from the keeper/guardian/thing before it was blown up.  Its possible that it was acting as an intermediate transmission node and when it was destroyed Bei's mind made up for the time out of contact with his fighter (and only source of sensory input) with something made up.  There could have been some kind of psychological reaction or such.

I'm just tended towards thinking it was remote control because why on earth would you go to the trouble to directly transfer someones MIND into a fighters processor or whatever when you can just remote control it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 28, 2012, 02:30:15 pm
Prevent jamming technologies from ruining your day. And lag.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 28, 2012, 04:30:04 pm
But if he really had been transplanted into the fighter, then he wouldn't have been affected by the Keepers destruction (and would probably been unable to return to his body without further Vishnan help).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 28, 2012, 06:39:54 pm
I dunno. Maybe it copies a mind over to the fighter while maintaining parity between the two minds. When the guardian dies the copy of the mind in the fighter loses the connection, slowly becomes static and fades while the body hosting the original mind revives from stasis with all of the memories prior to the disconnect?

I haven't played that mission in a long time. I don't remember what exactly happens aside from the HUD disappearing or something and you losing control of your ship. I think it fades to black after this, doesn't it? So the mind you play as in the mission actually dies, but the body they find later has all the new memories of the Vishnan arc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on May 29, 2012, 03:44:28 am
But Sam retains all the memories of what happened while he "was the fighter", so it can't have been a copy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 29, 2012, 06:23:23 am
But Sam retains all the memories of what happened while he "was the fighter", so it can't have been a copy.

Parity maintenance would explain this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on May 29, 2012, 03:27:24 pm
While acute radiation poisoning does sound pretty bad, I feel like HLP routinely underestimates the kind of crazy **** we might be able to pull off in three hundred years. I mean back in the early 1700s we didn't even know what germs were, you know?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on May 29, 2012, 03:49:00 pm
That was because we lacked knowledge about the biology and couldn't see opportunities for interventions. Part of gaining new knowledge is better understanding of how to overcome problems, but the other part is about learning limitations. Our current understanding of cell biology is pretty decent, at least good enough to say that it'd be incredibly difficult for a therapy to repair large amounts of radiation damage.

Something cool that could work though: New strategies for treating stroke involve putting genes that protect against hypoxia into the brains of people by way of viral infection. Think of it as a vaccine against stroke, if you will. This way, when you have a stroke, these exogenous genes activate (from hypoxic stimuli) and form proteins that will mitigate damage from ischemic stroke. If you did something similar for radiation, you could up the baseline tolerance of people to radiation exposure. Sure, it won't do nearly enough to save you from the massive exposures that would trash all your DNA and the newly introduced anti-radiation genes, but it'll help with mild-moderate exposures.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on May 29, 2012, 04:23:39 pm
we also used to have a "pretty decent" understanding of, well pretty much everything, that turned out to be wrong.  there's just no way to say "we've gotten as far as possible in this field."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on May 31, 2012, 05:47:04 pm
You are also forgetting that nano-tech treatment and actually physically rebuilding cells could be possible also.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on May 31, 2012, 07:47:46 pm
NANOMACHINES!

Oh, wait, that's Battuta's line. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on May 31, 2012, 08:25:16 pm
You are also forgetting that nano-tech treatment

Yes and it's going to stay that way, Kojima.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on May 31, 2012, 08:27:21 pm
ah fawk
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 31, 2012, 11:26:16 pm
You are also forgetting that nano-tech treatment and actually physically rebuilding cells could be possible also.
What are the nanomachines going to use as a template?  The patient's already dead or dying cells? This can't possibly go wrong! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CFSyHBVxDQ)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 01, 2012, 08:14:14 am
That sounds like it might (might) be another manifestation of our weird 'things taking too much damage' bug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on June 01, 2012, 05:08:15 pm
Urrr forgive me for this, but something just occoured to me.

In the final cutscene of FS1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRl4tIZjDLw) (This is the remastered version so do correct me if original is different) the Lucifer's debris cloud and Bastion fighters moving away are shown close to the Moon and Earth (very close to the former). Has the node moved in BP canon for any reason? If the node is still in the canon place, which is apparently practically on Earth's doorstep, then the questions in my head would be A) why go for Neptune and Jupiter instead of just blitzing Earth (which would apparently mean taking out the council and the major UEF power base), and B) Why is it the Jovians that engage first? Wouldn't it be Earth's jurisdiction (and not to mention much closer for Earth ships to jump to)?

Was just a funny thought (was reminded by the role the node being in Lunar plays in our U-War storyline). If it's meant to be on the edge of the system in BP, shall we just assume the gate opened its node in a new place on the system's edge? Would make sense being an artificially created one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on June 01, 2012, 05:12:47 pm
Urrr forgive me for this, but something just occoured to me. In the final cutscene of FS1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRl4tIZjDLw) (This is the remastered version so do correct me if original is different) the Lucifer's debris cloud and Bastion fighters moving away are shown close to the Moon and Earth (very close to the former).

This is from the original cutscene as well. Mind, there were also two nodes to Earth in the maps from FS1, and we don't know much about restabilizing or subspace mechanics in general.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 01, 2012, 05:24:48 pm
Subspace is affected by gravity (canon). I think it is said somewhere in BP fiction, or it was said only on the forum/IRC, that subspace nodes form and stabilize at points of specific gravity conditions occurring in a system. Which means a node will be naturally moving as the planets and moons move in the solar system in question.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 01, 2012, 05:25:00 pm
The new node is on the edge of the system, and we've always assumed it moves about as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on June 01, 2012, 05:32:18 pm
Subspace is affected by gravity (canon). I think it is said somewhere in BP fiction, or it was said only on the forum/IRC, that subspace nodes form and stabilize at points of specific gravity conditions occurring in a system. Which means a node will be naturally moving as the planets and moons move in the solar system in question.
and we've always assumed it moves about as well.

That would explain it; i hadn't realised that. Thanks for the quick replies.

And thanks for the confirm btw 1R.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on June 01, 2012, 05:53:23 pm
A more general question:

How is progress on WIH2 going?  Any chance we could get some more pictures from missions/ships? :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 01, 2012, 05:57:15 pm
Progress is not good since last spring. Act 3 is complete but we've struggled since then. If we were still working at R1's pace we'd probably have a release by now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 02, 2012, 03:33:19 am
You know the rule. Everyone someone asks for a status update, release gets delayed by a month.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 02, 2012, 06:07:42 am
No, that's definitely not true.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 02, 2012, 06:20:01 am
Idiot ! If you don't say that, you'll get swarmed by requests for status update !
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on June 02, 2012, 07:56:42 am
Oh noes. :shaking: What do you need?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on June 02, 2012, 07:59:30 am
About six months without study, work or infants...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on June 02, 2012, 09:57:57 am
Add one better computer to the list. Just. One. :blah:

The crappy player part's covered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on June 02, 2012, 12:07:24 pm
well, i will wait, till i can launch torpedoes in a titans fighterbay ... thats gotta look funny
Doesn't seem like a terribly good idea. You might blow yourself up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on June 03, 2012, 07:38:54 pm
I'm getting a dialogue issue when Laporte talks to Simms for the conversation segment (the first mission of Act 2).

Don't know if time compression screwed up the whole thing pre-subspace jump, but my dialogue tree was (direct -> have hope for 2nd Fleet -> say there's a problem), but now, when it comes to "insist there's a problem/insist there's no problem," the dialogue keeps blinking from "say there's a problem/there's no problem" to that and the rest of the dialogue options. Any idea? Or should I post a log?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on June 05, 2012, 02:26:46 pm
I have a minor nitpick for sunglare.
In the shot of Mars we see a Narayana in a spacedock, with turning gravity blocks. Wouldn't it make more sense to switch the gravity blocks off, while it is docked inside those "claws" of the station?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on June 06, 2012, 12:16:43 am
I have a minor nitpick for sunglare.
In the shot of Mars we see a Narayana in a spacedock, with turning gravity blocks. Wouldn't it make more sense to switch the gravity blocks off, while it is docked inside those "claws" of the station?


In three words:

Rule of Cool  :cool:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on June 06, 2012, 06:25:17 am
Considering that the Eris in the same shot and two other Narayanas in the next shot (along with Karunas and the Toutatis) are rotating happily away, I don't think it would make the outro any less cool to have that one Nara shut down.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 06, 2012, 08:49:37 am
It would be a pretty cool touch to turn the rotator off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gunteen6 on June 08, 2012, 08:59:42 pm
So uh, couple things here.

Love the campaign, still do. Updates to the models make it look and perform MUCH better.

Minor nitpicks though.
-The UEF supply ship has a nasty habit of circling idly at 300+M/S while waiting for orders, when it gets them it practically teleports over you and THEN proceeds to dock.
-The Knight fighters in "Deals in Shadows" have a habit of getting their engines knocked out and therefore being unable to jump out, ultimately distracting half the inbound force in the following gauntlet. Makes it easier, but I thought it kinda silly.

and I saw another wing of things jump in right at the beginning of Delenda Est behind us, yet there was nothing there at all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 14, 2012, 01:44:08 pm
When does this happen?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on June 15, 2012, 01:22:39 am
That sounds overpowered and probably not intended. I've never been able to pull that off though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on June 15, 2012, 04:50:54 am
on the contrary, i think it would help to counter the chimera's beam rape overpoweredness. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 15, 2012, 05:51:27 am
You think 3 separate beam cannons being knocked out by a pair of fairly small missiles makes sense?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on June 15, 2012, 06:27:08 am
why not, I know this is FS based so references to RL are flexible but a missile striking a weapons placement on a modern warship would put that system out of action, probably until it is completely replaced, at a minimum it would probably fix it in position and introduce the possibility of compromising the chamber.  weapons of a similar nature close by to each other and there is the possibility of sharing the same ammo/power feeds/regulators or other bulky/intensive support system
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on June 15, 2012, 12:47:28 pm
Overpoweredness is determined by the story and needs of the story at any given time.

That said, I'm preeeeetty sure that it should take more than a dual fired Paveway to take out all three.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 15, 2012, 01:14:05 pm
It does.  Takes a pair of Paveways for each.  I checked. 

Can't really help solve Actium's problem without more info.

headdie:   I find it very, very unlikely that a weapon the size of a Paveway does anything more than superficial damage to the beam cannon.  Probably just wrecks the emitter, which is stated to be fragile.

A Nimitz-class carrier would have difficulty fitting one of the Chimera's beam cannons on its flight deck.  Don't go comparing real world ships and their relatively tiny weapon systems to FS2 ships.  A Paveway is, what, 5m long?  You don't see anything wrong with a pair of these somehow disabling 3 150m long beam cannons at once?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on June 15, 2012, 01:25:48 pm
It does.  Takes a pair of Paveways for each.  I checked. 

Can't really help solve Actium's problem without more info.

headdie:   I find it very, very unlikely that a weapon the size of a Paveway does anything more than superficial damage to the beam cannon.  Probably just wrecks the emitter, which is stated to be fragile.

A Nimitz-class carrier would have difficulty fitting one of the Chimera's beam cannons on its flight deck.  Don't go comparing real world ships and their relatively tiny weapon systems to FS2 ships.  A Paveway is, what, 5m long?  You don't see anything wrong with a pair of these somehow disabling 3 150m long beam cannons at once?

we are also talking about a franchise which measures the smallest rocket warhead in kilo tonnes.  So yes ships are considerably scaled up, but then so are the weapons.  also see my opening:

I know this is FS based so references to RL are flexible
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on June 15, 2012, 01:32:43 pm

I find it very, very unlikely that a weapon the size of a Paveway does anything more than superficial damage to the beam cannon.  Probably just wrecks the emitter, which is stated to be fragile.

(...) A Paveway is, what, 5m long?  You don't see anything wrong with a pair of these somehow disabling 3 150m long beam cannons at once?

2 Paveways destroying the entire 150m beam cannon is implausible. However, 2 Paveways wrecking or seriously damaging a 30-something metre emitter and thus effectively disabling the ship's ability to fire the cannon seems like a good idea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 15, 2012, 01:42:23 pm
Vip: Absolutely.  Those same missiles somehow disabling the other 2 cannons as well, however, makes no sense.  That's what we're arguing about.

headdie: And these systems have no difficulty shrugging off multiple hits from those kiloton payload dumbfires.  Neither of those facts makes a pair of 5m missiles disabling 3 beam cannons at once plausible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on June 15, 2012, 02:59:47 pm
Paveways and anti-subsystem weapons in general are probably bunker busters, using a hardened penetrator to lodge themselves inside the target before delivering their payload, whereas dumbfires and the like just detonate on the surface where their yield gets absorbed by the hull.

Since the Shivans generally don't care about disabling what they could simply destroy wholesale, the GTVA probably focused more on exterior armor than shielded subsystems.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on June 15, 2012, 03:00:11 pm
Could it be an issue with the new Chimera model?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on June 15, 2012, 04:35:55 pm
Vip: Absolutely.  Those same missiles somehow disabling the other 2 cannons as well, however, makes no sense.  That's what we're arguing about.

headdie: And these systems have no difficulty shrugging off multiple hits from those kiloton payload dumbfires.  Neither of those facts makes a pair of 5m missiles disabling 3 beam cannons at once plausible.

Bah, somehow I forgot about the original issue. Silly me. Hmmm, it's hard to judge without knowing the specifics of the Paveway - there is very little info on how it may work. It doesn't make much sense if they are indeed bunker-busters which simply explode, but perhaps they cause some sort of specialised electric surge that destroys some key components of a subsystem? And then, if the beams are somehow connected, a single volley could disable all of them at once...

Granted, that's a lot of ifs and assumptions, but I can imagine a semi-plausible explanation for such an occurrence. So I wouldn't say it doesn't make sense, but that it's merely very improbable :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on June 15, 2012, 05:39:59 pm
Vip: Absolutely.  Those same missiles somehow disabling the other 2 cannons as well, however, makes no sense.  That's what we're arguing about.

headdie: And these systems have no difficulty shrugging off multiple hits from those kiloton payload dumbfires.  Neither of those facts makes a pair of 5m missiles disabling 3 beam cannons at once plausible.

Bah, somehow I forgot about the original issue. Silly me. Hmmm, it's hard to judge without knowing the specifics of the Paveway - there is very little info on how it may work. It doesn't make much sense if they are indeed bunker-busters which simply explode, but perhaps they cause some sort of specialised electric surge that destroys some key components of a subsystem? And then, if the beams are somehow connected, a single volley could disable all of them at once...

Granted, that's a lot of ifs and assumptions, but I can imagine a semi-plausible explanation for such an occurrence. So I wouldn't say it doesn't make sense, but that it's merely very improbable :P

If you can confine and direct the warhead in a similar manner to a shaped charge seen on modern HEAT rounds you can use the same effect which is the explosive acts more as a plasma generator which directs a jet of the stuff in a fairly specific direction, this provides good penetration and localized damage but limits wider structural damage.

where as a more general ball of explosive would have a better chance at disrupting the general structure by applying a sudden application and release of load on support joints, inducing metal fatigue and buckling among other effects.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on June 17, 2012, 01:02:35 am
guys guys guys

I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. Disabling 3 beam turrets at once was (AFAIK) NOT POSSIBLE in the first release of WiH.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vip on June 17, 2012, 07:00:55 am
guys guys guys

I'm pretty sure you're missing the point. Disabling 3 beam turrets at once was (AFAIK) NOT POSSIBLE in the first release of WiH.

Bah, playing the first release of WiH was nearly not possible AT ALL, mainly because of the old models :P I wonder if this 3-beams-one-shot thingy is somehow connected to the bugs features introduced in recent builds of FSO, especially the shockwave damage added to some weapons which previously didn't have them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on June 17, 2012, 10:10:45 am
(I got good performance with the old karunas, but my system is GPU bottlenecked sooooo)

Seems likely that it may be related to the shockwave bugs that people suspect are making Delenda Este very hard.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on June 17, 2012, 10:29:18 am
I still suspect the new Chimera model. The new Karuna model is actually more suspected of making Delenda Est hard than the shockwave bug, AFAIK.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on June 17, 2012, 11:47:26 am
I still suspect the new Chimera model. The new Karuna model is actually more suspected of making Delenda Est hard than the shockwave bug, AFAIK.
The problem with DE is that the new Karuna model's radius was set much larger than it should have been, causing the shockwave bug to occur that much more often.

It's entirely possible that it's a Chimera model problem if the same thing happened, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 17, 2012, 12:11:31 pm
Everything's fine on my end.  Threw a Chimera in a blank map, shot a pair of Paveways at each beam cannon, and each blew up one at a time.

Can anyone else reproduce the problem?

I'm beginning to suspect Actium's problem in in The Plunder.  When disabling the Siren's cannons, it can look as though all 3 get knocked out at once because the rest of Alpha is also on the job.  Since you're close to them, it can result in everyone launching at the same time, resulting in near simultaneous impacts that can look as though your missiles killed all of them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on June 21, 2012, 07:04:41 pm
Question: Just typed Imperieuse into a online translator...but there was no result...only the choice between imperious and impervious so whats right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on June 21, 2012, 07:12:49 pm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Imperieuse
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on June 21, 2012, 07:23:28 pm
No, tell me? I knew there were british ships named that way, I'm not that dumb, I wanted to know a english-german translation ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on June 21, 2012, 07:36:51 pm
It's a name, translation isn't really necessary.

Not to mention that it's actually a French name.

EDIT:  If you really want a translation, "impérieuse" means "imperious" in English.  Not much of a linguistic jump.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on June 22, 2012, 01:42:36 am
you do know that french had very present and lasting roots in english history, right?

Take a look at the royal armoury seal (dieu es mon droit)!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on June 22, 2012, 01:50:37 am
Maybe. But that sounded like a response to an attempt to translate "Imperieuse" from German into English.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 22, 2012, 05:15:43 am
Specifically, "Impérieuse" is the feminine form of "Imperious".  The masculine form would be "Impérieux".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on June 22, 2012, 07:51:04 am
The Royal Navy has a long tradition of naming their ships after foreign ships that they've captured. A great way of flipping the bird to whatever foreign navy that ship was from the next time you end up fighting them. :p

The Temeraire (Temerity) from AoA follows the same naming convention.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 22, 2012, 07:58:03 am
Probably the same for the Labouchère and a few others that I can't remember from the top of my head.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on June 22, 2012, 08:51:09 am
Ree-gens-berg or rag-gens-berg, probably.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on June 22, 2012, 08:53:49 am
I always read it "Ree-jens-burg"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on June 22, 2012, 10:49:06 am
Sorted it out with the help of a translator program, able to translate french to german etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Medve on June 25, 2012, 08:59:14 pm
I've been stalking Hard Light as a guest too long. I've registered to give my compliments to all you mod authors, starting with the Blue Planet team.

You guys did an amazing work, as always. I was completely immersed in both episodes of Blue Planet, to the point where I was genuinely afraid of what might happen to my mates if I failed.
Spoiler:
Afterburner drift-docking with the Indus at the very end while missiles, bombs and all kinds of hell came down was both my best maneuver and possibly one of the best moments I had.

P.S.: Greetings from Hungary! I couldn't help but grin vigorously when I read "Tatabanya" and "Sopron" stations.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on July 07, 2012, 11:56:20 pm
I know we've seen specific GTVA units (Serkr team, etc.) but is there a possibility we could see another named GTVA rival?  What I mean is, we know about Steele, how about a GTVA ace that has to be worried about?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 08, 2012, 07:30:07 pm
Don't know what is being hit with the bombardbeam...but hell...this is a terror to behold^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on July 31, 2012, 01:56:56 am
Okay, this may or may not be a case of Science Marching On, but apparently we have discovered a method for relatively (emphasis on "relatively") easily producing lots of antimatter on a relatively practical level: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/12/01/antimatter-laser.html

Quote
Blasting a gold target with high-powered lasers creates huge amounts of antimatter, reported scientists from the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory at a conference last week.

A steady supply of the antimatter particles, known as positrons, is a big step towards solving some fundamental mysteries, such as why more matter than antimatter survived the Big Bang at the start of the universe. A supply of antimatter could also be used in creating a new generation of tools for fields as diverse as astrophysics and medicine.

"This is the first substantial source of antimatter using lasers," said Hui Chen of Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.

Substantial indeed. The California researchers estimate that with every shot of their laser, which fires every 30 minutes, they create about 10 billion positrons, also called anti-electrons. That's several orders of magnitude more than the other two existing sources of positrons: natural radioactive decay and large linear accelerators.

The LLNL scientists created the positrons by shooting the lab's high-powered Titan laser onto a one-millimeter-thick piece of gold. The laser excites the electrons, causing them to "wiggle," as Peter Beiersdorfer, a LLNL physicist on the project explains.

Given FS2-era tech (let alone BP-era tech), wouldn't that make creating large stores of antimatter/antimatter warheads practical without spending 50 years not having to use many of the ones you build?

Again, maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the scale/practicality of this, but perhaps this method would make building Helios torpedoes en masse cost-effective?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 31, 2012, 02:18:37 am
I know we've seen specific GTVA units (Serkr team, etc.) but is there a possibility we could see another named GTVA rival?  What I mean is, we know about Steele, how about a GTVA ace that has to be worried about?
The thing is, and it is specifically said several times in WiH, the Tevs don't let their aces in the front line very long. They are pulled back and used to train the next generation of pilots, while the UEF keep their aces in combat, where they rank unbelievable kill counts before dying and taking their skill in the grave.

The UEF wages war like a sprint, the GTVA wages war like a marathon. We've all seen which one works the best.

Given FS2-era tech (let alone BP-era tech), wouldn't that make creating large stores of antimatter/antimatter warheads practical without spending 50 years not having to use many of the ones you build?
That's exactly what the UEF has been doing. They have antimatter farms in Mercury that use the abundant solar power to generate antimatter. As far as I know, those antimatter farms are pre-isolation. The UEF has huge AM stockpiles. How do you think they can waste dozens if not hundreds of Apocalypses per battle, even after the Blitz and the logistical collapse that followed ? Clearly, whatever they lack of, it is not AM.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 31, 2012, 10:46:38 am
But does it blend?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Liberator on July 31, 2012, 02:56:38 pm
Yes, but the resultant gamma emissions are...troublesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on August 02, 2012, 02:22:36 am

That's exactly what the UEF has been doing. They have antimatter farms in Mercury that use the abundant solar power to generate antimatter. As far as I know, those antimatter farms are pre-isolation. The UEF has huge AM stockpiles. How do you think they can waste dozens if not hundreds of Apocalypses per battle, even after the Blitz and the logistical collapse that followed ? Clearly, whatever they lack of, it is not AM.

Right, but I was referring to the GTVA, not the UEF; the output of an SGreen alone could produce (unless I'm totally misunderstanding the scale here) significant quantities of antimatter at any location; I also seriously doubt there aren't any planets in the GTVA that has the same AM-related properties as Mercury.

And if those UEF facilities were mostly build during the Great War, then the GTVA has had the knowledge, tech, equipment, and experience needed for that for decades. And given how useful and powerful antimatter is...

I wonder if a meson reactor is more powerful (and/or cost-efficient) than an antimatter reactor...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 02, 2012, 02:31:52 am
It's pretty much implied, in the BP lore, that meson tech is much better than antimatter. Re-read the Supernova tech description, it's a meson warhead said to be "More compact than the Helios bomb, and nearly as powerful", and the Helios is antimatter.

If you count the fact that warship-mounted torpedoes need to dedicate much more space for fuel than bomber-launched bombs (that is canon too IIRC), it means the explosive charge of the Supernova is much smaller than that of the Helios, yet is as powerful.

UEF's Apocalypse antimatter torpedoes, on the other hand, do 1/5th or 1/10th of the damage of the Supernova (depending on the torpedo model). I guess you get the point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 02, 2012, 12:31:32 pm
Quote
And if those UEF facilities were mostly build during the Great War, then the GTVA has had the knowledge, tech, equipment, and experience needed for that for decades. And given how useful and powerful antimatter is...

Well, of course they have that knowledge. But, crucially, they did not have the concentrated mass of infrastructure that is present in Sol; building, operating and expanding an antimatter farm takes a lot of work, which is easier to get done in Sol. The GTVA has its own farms, of course, but their combined output doesn't really come close to that of the Sol farm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Inglonias on August 02, 2012, 07:03:18 pm
Just finished the campaign again. The ending is just as upsetting as when I first played through it.

I'm going to pretend the Mr. Cuddles ending was the actual ending and leave it at that, and if/when the next release comes out, I will hopefully have been proven correct. It's much less depressing to think of it this way...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on August 02, 2012, 08:14:43 pm
Got to ask, does anybody know if the voice acting for WiH has been finished and added into the game?  Or is it still being worked on?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on August 02, 2012, 08:34:44 pm
Still a while away.  I'd bet on Part 2 getting completed first, but I don't expect either will be released this year.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on August 02, 2012, 11:37:06 pm
Okay, well I'd like to ask this, though I think this is the wrong location for this post.  Is it possible to force cockpit views on all ships in BP without actually making a TBM to mark those ships within the mod?

Again, I realize this may be a bad place for this message.  If so, then please move this accordingly; I just figured since I'm trying to do this for BP that I could put it here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iss Mneur on August 02, 2012, 11:59:36 pm
Okay, well I'd like to ask this, though I think this is the wrong location for this post.  Is it possible to force cockpit views on all ships in BP without actually making a TBM to mark those ships within the mod?
No.

Again, I realize this may be a bad place for this message.  If so, then please move this accordingly; I just figured since I'm trying to do this for BP that I could put it here.
It is probably not the best place for the question, but I can think of far worse places for it  ;7 and I can't think of a better place other than right in the board index so, meh. However, I think someone has already done that work and it is already available on this board.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on August 03, 2012, 10:43:22 am
Just finished the campaign again. The ending is just as upsetting as when I first played through it.

I'm going to pretend the Mr. Cuddles ending was the actual ending and leave it at that, and if/when the next release comes out, I will hopefully have been proven correct. It's much less depressing to think of it this way...

That's one of my favorite parts about the game. The fact that all the momentum you built up during the campaign is pulled out from under you at the last second, just in time for you to see nearly all your wingmen get vaporized as you run away tail between your legs. It was the best cliffhanger setup I've seen in recent memory.

Though yeah, it did feel like a kick in the gut.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on August 03, 2012, 11:07:35 am
Agreed, but me, the first time I played it, I was focused on the combat, so that kick was more of a miss than anything else, since I think I might have missed something.  Part of the reason why I prefer a mod with voice acting, as that keeps me from missing the important dialog.  Best, and possibly the craziest part of the game, I thought, was the therapy flight between Noemi and Vicmouth.  That mission still creeps me out, but I thought the way it played out was quite creative.  Makes me wonder how Ken is going to play a part in the new chapter.  If I'm honest, I'm just getting that impression just from that mission that he's going to play another part, and even be a part of the Vishnan as well, if they're going to show in the next installment.  I think they are, if the first BP is to be considered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on August 03, 2012, 11:09:19 am
I didn't find it upsetting at all. :p

I did find it awesome and incredibly well done, though.  Best "cavalry arrives to save the day" moment I've ever seen.  Being on the wrong side of the charge really enhances the effect. 

WiH was a glorious cycle of victory followed by a bigger defeat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on August 03, 2012, 11:24:50 am
Ugh, Sheppard glisses... so creepy
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 03, 2012, 11:32:02 am
Just finished the campaign again. The ending is just as upsetting as when I first played through it.

I'm going to pretend the Mr. Cuddles ending was the actual ending and leave it at that, and if/when the next release comes out, I will hopefully have been proven correct. It's much less depressing to think of it this way...
Or you can allow one of the frigates to be destroyed at any point prior to the arrival of the Imperieuse, prompting the rest of the attack force to withdraw and giving you a much happier ending than the mission's "victory" condition. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 03, 2012, 12:27:44 pm
Actually, I doubt it would be much happier. Without the pressure on the Carthage, I kind of expect the Imperieuse deployed elsewhere, say, gutting a Solaris or two.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on August 08, 2012, 01:03:47 am

The thing is, and it is specifically said several times in WiH, the Tevs don't let their aces in the front line very long. They are pulled back and used to train the next generation of pilots, while the UEF keep their aces in combat, where they rank unbelievable kill counts before dying and taking their skill in the grave.

So after five kills in Sol, a GTVA pilot gets sent back home?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 08, 2012, 01:42:46 am
Not necessarily THAT mathematically accurate, but to oversimplify, yes. The Tevs believe aces are better used training MORE aces, than staying in the front line and die, bringing their hard-earned experience with them in the grave.

Obviously I expect most squadron leaders and members of elite squadrons to be aces, but they aren't going to stay in the front line as long as pilots like Simms of Ng'mei have on the buntu side.

There are also those that become SOC, but the SOC has shown to not keep their pilots with them for very long... (be it because of the casualty rate or because they're often recruited for a specific mission or two then sent back to their squadron.)

EDIT : just because most people arguing in these kind of threads seems to STILL NOT have read Conversations from War in Heaven...

Aboard UEFg Yangtze

"She's too old to fly. She's got to be a danger to the squadron."

"Shut the **** up, Ogre."

"Look, it's not like I'm saying she's a bad person, even a bad leader, but there are limits. She could do more good somewhere else."

"Do you know how many people there are with as many flight hours as her?"

"Hundreds. There've got to be hundreds."

"Maybe ten in the whole Fleet."

"What? That can't be right. At Indra II there were - "

"They're dead."

"How the hell did they all get dead?"

"Look, you want to know why our fighter corps kicked their fighter corp's ass for the last eighteen months?"

"Because they can't fly for ****?"

"It's because they take their good pilots off the line after twenty, thirty sorties and pull them to the rear. Where they train new pilots, build new dicta, and pass on their knowledge. And do you know what we do?"

"We - "

"That's right. We keep people like Flight Lieutenant Ng'Mei on the front line, where they rack up spectacular kill counts and then die like everyone else."

"Makes sense to me. We have to win battles now, not battles in six months. What's the good of an ace if they aren't out getting kills?"

"They have the luxury of using their aces to make new aces. They're running a marathon, we're running a sprint. And that's why their flight corps is getting better and better, and ours is...well, look at the Indus."

"Lorna Simms is - "

" - the only one worth a damn still flying off that ship. The rest are dead. And you know who trained Simms, right?"

"Ng'Mei?"

"Ng'Mei. So learn everything you can while she's still in the cockpit, Ogre, because when she's gone...there's nobody to take her place."

"**** me."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on August 08, 2012, 02:09:42 am
What I'm hoping for the most, though, is another mission where you fly a cruiser into battle, like with the mini-campaign in WiH.  That mission was fun, if challenging!  Reminds me so much of the X-universe!  Still, that, and another skybox mission would be nice.  WiH was my very first campaign where I've seen one be used in FreeSpace, despite how long I've known about them.  I just hope, over all though, is that features that made this mod great, in addition to the story, are added back into BP3...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2012, 03:50:00 am

The thing is, and it is specifically said several times in WiH, the Tevs don't let their aces in the front line very long. They are pulled back and used to train the next generation of pilots, while the UEF keep their aces in combat, where they rank unbelievable kill counts before dying and taking their skill in the grave.

So after five kills in Sol, a GTVA pilot gets sent back home?
If it helps, parallel it with the pilot situation during the end of WWII, with the Allies and the Axis.

The Allies had the luxury of actually having tours of duty for their boys and rotating them home and away from the frontline and whatnot like a healthy unit should. The Axis, or Germans more specifically (not full-bottle on the Italians) didn't have this luxury, and as far as I know, it was never a big part of their military aviation culture to rotate experienced knucks back to training commands.

Instead, German pilots stayed within their geschwader and racked up spectacular kill-counts until they either died or were moved up/out.

So it's not necessarily a case of 'oh, you bagged five, did you, Ensign Bloggs? Well, back through the node you go!' but 'you've done your tour, bloggsy, we're sending you to RAFGTVA training command to do an instructor's course in getting pissed at the squadron bar whilst simultaneously teaching students everything you know for between 6 months to 3 years.' Plus I have a feeling that the definition of an Ace has changed in the FS-verse, given the way the Ace medal is awarded.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 08, 2012, 03:54:50 am
The actual model we're using is Imperial Japan vs USA in WW2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 08, 2012, 04:00:40 am
The actual model we're using is Imperial Japan vs USA in WW2.

They won't let you go home unless you're dead.

(I would have done it in Japanese but I can't find my copy of Shattered Sword right now. This upsets me.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 08, 2012, 04:19:56 am
The actual model we're using is Imperial Japan vs USA in WW2.
I see, that seemed about right. My knowledge of the Pacific theatre is pretty poor comparatively, but I have a feeling the same points come through.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on August 09, 2012, 01:51:03 am
Just finished the campaign again. The ending is just as upsetting as when I first played through it.

I'm going to pretend the Mr. Cuddles ending was the actual ending and leave it at that, and if/when the next release comes out, I will hopefully have been proven correct. It's much less depressing to think of it this way...

That's one of my favorite parts about the game. The fact that all the momentum you built up during the campaign is pulled out from under you at the last second, just in time for you to see nearly all your wingmen get vaporized as you run away tail between your legs. It was the best cliffhanger setup I've seen in recent memory.

Though yeah, it did feel like a kick in the gut.

These days, I have trouble thinking about that twist without a serious point of fridge logic popping up:

Katana/Insuperable/Altan Orde/etc: Y U NO RAMMING SPEED????

Hell, the Nelson went straight for a ramming attempt as the first resort. They wanted to kill the Carthage more than anything, and they knew the strategic implications of doing so--even at the cost of all of the Wargods (which would actually be a morale and political boon, as it's a very potent, determined message, and a heroic example). The Carthage is already significantly wounded, and all of the secondary explosions from the Apocalypse torps (being antimatter warheads...) would probably ensure a kill from the ramming of even a single Karuna. A Sanctus ramming might do the trick, though that one's not certain. And as for screening a retreat, I imagine the combined blasts/debris/radiation/potential survivors right in front of the Impereiuse is a better screen than slowly engaging in a straight-up slugfest with a Titan, Chimera, and a significant fighter/bomber escort. I thought the Katana and Altan Orde (and other Karunas) have reverse thrust (including afterburners?). Makes ramming much easier and more potent, and it allows you to fire away at those forward beam cannons with your gauss and mass driver guns while retreating at a good pace.

Even worse, all of the Wargods present were totally unhesistant to go down fighting/in a blaze of glory(/death) when the odds were clearly certain (as far as survival goes). There's no way the entire task force had an active aversion to Taking You With Me, Heroic Sacrifice, and/or Ramming Always Works...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 09, 2012, 01:54:59 am
Do we even know that a Karuna has enough mass to make a successful ramming attempt against an Orion?

After all, the Sixth Wonder taught us what a significant mass disparity does.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on August 09, 2012, 02:14:41 am
Do we even know that a Karuna has enough mass to make a successful ramming attempt against an Orion?

After all, the Sixth Wonder taught us what a significant mass disparity does.

1) The Carthage was already significantly damaged.
2) A Karuna is pretty big--not a destroyer, sure, but larger than any GTVA corvette. Couple that with the absurd number of Apocalypse antimatter torpedoes, flak munitions, and the reactor itself, and you get one hell of a punch (and bang).
3) The Karuna would be ramming at speeds around 60 m/s....that's considerable.
4) The Colossus skewered that Orion with heavy beams before it even got close. Not exactly much of a ramming attack (with poor speed, to boot).
5) Square-cubed law (IIRC) implies that the Colossus would be made out of (or built to be) far, far sturdier stuff than your average Orion. The attempted ramming was at the frontal armor of the ship, which is probably one of its thicker points.
6) I'm not sure you could even call it a ramming--I always got the impression that Koth's ship was largely gutted by beams before it really hit the Colossus (as in, it blew up before any real ramming occurred).
7) If at first you don't succeed...you've got a lot more options at your disposal. Another Karuna, and/or another Sanctus. And/or the rest of the task force just unloading into the crippled Carthage with Apocalypse spam, point-blank mass-driver shells, gauss cannon fire, and even some PDT and Burst Flak fire for the cherry on top.


Think of it this way:
Canon course of action:
1) Best case scenario: the Indus and Yangtze escape to safety, the rest of the Wargods are dead, and perhaps some barely-moderate damage is inflicted to the Impereiuse. The Carthage escapes with only moderate damage.
2) Worst case scenario: The Wargods are all killed, the Carthage escapes with only moderate damage, and the Imperieuse barely gets a scratch.

Ramming:
1) Best case scenario: the Katana (or Altan Orde) rams the Carthage, killing it and hampering effective beam cannon fire in the vicinity. The rest of the task force engages in a fighting retreat, with the Karunas reverse-afterburning while pounding away with their gauss/mass driver guns, aiming for the forward beam cannons on the other ships. Apoc torps are also spammed. The entire rest of the task force escapes.
2) Worse case scenario: The Wargods are all dead, but the Carthage is completely dead (along with her entire crew and air wing). Combined with the heavy beating the entire Carthage battlegroup took that day, and the loss of the core of the entire battle group's officers/leaders, effectively renders this group out of the fight for the remainder of the war, while time and resources must be taken in getting them out of Sol (along with repairs) and finding a replacement (and getting them up to speed/experienced). Further, the Imperiouse and Hydra are unlikely to be able to participate further in the battles of Delenda Est day.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 09, 2012, 03:00:26 am
Being an armchair admiral is fun, isn't it.

The thing is, ramming might have worked.

If that had been the plan from the beginning.

Alas, it wasn't. The Wargods decided to hang back instead of continuing the charge; and when the Imperieuse showed up, the probability of a ramming maneuver succeeding was going down rapidly, due to the Imp's Ice Queen beams.

In addition, killing the Carthage but losing the Wargods in the process would have been a pyrrhic victory at best. As such, suicidal charges were never considered during mission planning, and were only brought back to the table once it was clear that other courses of action were no longer available.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 09, 2012, 03:19:20 am
1) The Carthage was already significantly damaged.
2) A Karuna is pretty big--not a destroyer, sure, but larger than any GTVA corvette. Couple that with the absurd number of Apocalypse antimatter torpedoes, flak munitions, and the reactor itself, and you get one hell of a punch (and bang).
3) The Karuna would be ramming at speeds around 60 m/s....that's considerable.
4) The Colossus skewered that Orion with heavy beams before it even got close. Not exactly much of a ramming attack (with poor speed, to boot).
5) Square-cubed law (IIRC) implies that the Colossus would be made out of (or built to be) far, far sturdier stuff than your average Orion. The attempted ramming was at the frontal armor of the ship, which is probably one of its thicker points.
6) I'm not sure you could even call it a ramming--I always got the impression that Koth's ship was largely gutted by beams before it really hit the Colossus (as in, it blew up before any real ramming occurred).
7) If at first you don't succeed...you've got a lot more options at your disposal. Another Karuna, and/or another Sanctus. And/or the rest of the task force just unloading into the crippled Carthage with Apocalypse spam, point-blank mass-driver shells, gauss cannon fire, and even some PDT and Burst Flak fire for the cherry on top.

1. Probably not relevant for the purposes of this discussion. I don't see huge chunks of it floating off so it's retaining most of its mass.

2. The front end of a Karuna (a lot of the front in fact) is mainly its two mass drivers. In overall size and overall mass it's at best the same. This also means that the part of the ship which will make contact is much more likely to crumple and absorb energy from the impact rather than remain rigid enough to transfer it.

Also assumes a complete lack of safety systems for the munitions, which is very much inconsistent with the need to handle ordnance safely. BP has consistently gone out of its way not to paint anyone as dumb. This ammunition is almost certainly all boresafe.

3. 60m/s still isn't that much.

4. Again, it's not like huge portions of the ship necessarily disappear.

5. Square-cube law applies only in consistent gravity. No, artificial gravity doesn't count, the mere fact they have it means they can futz with the specific gravity of any portion of the ship as they like. (Hell, there may not be reason to actually have gravity in large portions of the ship in combat, or even normally.)

6. While this is possible, the reality is it usually does make ramming contact and the mission is designed for it.

7. Ramming is by definition an option of last resort unless your ship is specifically designed for it. The Wargods are a major portion of the UEF's defense. They represent an asset years, possibly more, in the making, and are not to be sacrificed casually. If it is remotely possible to save the ships and crew then you should; only when it became clear this was no longer in the cards was ramming considered.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on August 09, 2012, 09:05:13 am
Pretty sure Battuta said that he and the devs played out just about every possible scenario for DE. Like actually set it up and FRED and watched what happened. Attacking the Imperiuse turned out to be the best option. IIRC it worked well enough that they had to guardian the Imp's beam turrets or make them invulnerable or something to ensure that the Wargods lose consistently.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 09, 2012, 09:08:21 am
IIRC it worked well enough that they had to guardian the Imp's beam turrets or make them invulnerable or something to ensure that the Wargods lose consistently.

I think they had to do that to stop QD from taking them out more than that, but...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 09, 2012, 09:10:17 am
Yeah, less about consistency and more about not allowing teh uberpilot to **** the mission up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 09, 2012, 03:58:34 pm
i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on August 09, 2012, 05:00:22 pm
i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.
Not always--Tenderizer was by far the hardest mission in FS1 for me.

It's more that ramming doesn't make much sense when you're charging straight down the main fire arc of a destroyer capable of obliterating you in a single volley from well outside your own engagement range. At least six UEF captains don't seem to grasp the issue. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 09, 2012, 05:08:28 pm
i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.
Not always--Tenderizer was by far the hardest mission in FS1 for me.

It's more that ramming doesn't make much sense when you're charging straight down the main fire arc of a destroyer capable of obliterating you in a single volley from well outside your own engagement range. At least six UEF captains don't seem to grasp the issue. :p

I think that's more of a "well this doesn't have a chance in hell of working but since we're going to die anyway we can hope they derp and forget to shoot us and even if they don't at least we bought some time because they shot at us and not someone else" than an honest attempt to do damage via ramming.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 09, 2012, 05:55:29 pm
i still tend to think staying at engagement range and lasting longer would provide better cover and probably do more damage to boot.  cruising slowly at them at 30 m/s doesn't demand any more focused response than attacking them with everything you have.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 09, 2012, 09:41:33 pm
Not always--Tenderizer was by far the hardest mission in FS1 for me.

Tenderizer was pre-planned and pre-rigged for ramming attacks, though. It's not really the best example of effective off-the-cuff attempts when they go in having prepared.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on August 10, 2012, 12:37:26 am
i cringe every time a ramming attack is suggested in FS.  cap ships are just too damn slow for it to make any sense at all.
Capships are also big. Ramming isn't about speed, it's about crushing the target with your mass.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on August 10, 2012, 01:11:12 am
The Karuna has a crumple zone that takes up a third of the ship.  The front is basically two armor plates and some guns.  For all we know, the Orion is a very dense ship (looks very robust to me), and a Karuna might have just crumpled against the side and done nothing more than cause a few hull breaches.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kobrar44 on August 10, 2012, 04:36:51 am
With all those warheads hot it would do better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 10, 2012, 06:42:30 am
Jury-rigged tenders with A/M payloads would be a better bet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on August 10, 2012, 12:20:10 pm
Wish the UEF had the anti-subsystem thingie the GTI's R/D division (GTSc Giordano/Crazy Ivans ring a bell?) from ST:R. Would be EPIC, all those fighters lying there, helpless.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 10, 2012, 12:27:32 pm
It's probably less about having it or not and more about everything that was built since then being resistant to it. Technology and, specifically here, electronic warfare has evolved a whole lot since the STR times.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 10, 2012, 12:47:34 pm
Yeah, weapons like that are basically one-shot deals. You can use them once or twice, but once the opposition realizes what you did, they will seek ways to take that advantage away; in that specific case, I figure that GTI found a common vulnerability and built a weapon to exploit it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on August 10, 2012, 12:53:35 pm
The UEF never encountered the GTI mega-shutdown device.  Is it possible their fighters still have this vulnerability?

And if they did, would the GTVA think to exploit it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 10, 2012, 01:12:55 pm
Most of the GTI data was in Sol before the isolation. Also, don't forget the UEF has the Shrike missile, which is way more dangerous than Tev's EM Pulse (or EMP missile ? I never remember which one is ST and which one is FS2). I'm pretty sure they have all the necessary EM defences to at least not be completely powered down at the first EM blast.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on August 14, 2012, 05:51:04 am
Uh, is there something like a timeline for the mission, like which battle/skirmish whatever was fought on which day,month, year?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 14, 2012, 05:54:03 am
You should be able to find most of the relevant dates in command briefings.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 14, 2012, 09:38:33 am
Which isn't exactly a helpfully compiled timeline, no, but it's certainly workable.  That might be something that would be helpful for people just finishing the campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on August 14, 2012, 04:06:50 pm
1) The Carthage was already significantly damaged.
2) A Karuna is pretty big--not a destroyer, sure, but larger than any GTVA corvette. Couple that with the absurd number of Apocalypse antimatter torpedoes, flak munitions, and the reactor itself, and you get one hell of a punch (and bang).
3) The Karuna would be ramming at speeds around 60 m/s....that's considerable.
4) The Colossus skewered that Orion with heavy beams before it even got close. Not exactly much of a ramming attack (with poor speed, to boot).
5) Square-cubed law (IIRC) implies that the Colossus would be made out of (or built to be) far, far sturdier stuff than your average Orion. The attempted ramming was at the frontal armor of the ship, which is probably one of its thicker points.
6) I'm not sure you could even call it a ramming--I always got the impression that Koth's ship was largely gutted by beams before it really hit the Colossus (as in, it blew up before any real ramming occurred).
7) If at first you don't succeed...you've got a lot more options at your disposal. Another Karuna, and/or another Sanctus. And/or the rest of the task force just unloading into the crippled Carthage with Apocalypse spam, point-blank mass-driver shells, gauss cannon fire, and even some PDT and Burst Flak fire for the cherry on top.

1. Probably not relevant for the purposes of this discussion. I don't see huge chunks of it floating off so it's retaining most of its mass.

2. The front end of a Karuna (a lot of the front in fact) is mainly its two mass drivers. In overall size and overall mass it's at best the same. This also means that the part of the ship which will make contact is much more likely to crumple and absorb energy from the impact rather than remain rigid enough to transfer it.

Also assumes a complete lack of safety systems for the munitions, which is very much inconsistent with the need to handle ordnance safely. BP has consistently gone out of its way not to paint anyone as dumb. This ammunition is almost certainly all boresafe.

3. 60m/s still isn't that much.

4. Again, it's not like huge portions of the ship necessarily disappear.

5. Square-cube law applies only in consistent gravity. No, artificial gravity doesn't count, the mere fact they have it means they can futz with the specific gravity of any portion of the ship as they like. (Hell, there may not be reason to actually have gravity in large portions of the ship in combat, or even normally.)

6. While this is possible, the reality is it usually does make ramming contact and the mission is designed for it.

7. Ramming is by definition an option of last resort unless your ship is specifically designed for it. The Wargods are a major portion of the UEF's defense. They represent an asset years, possibly more, in the making, and are not to be sacrificed casually. If it is remotely possible to save the ships and crew then you should; only when it became clear this was no longer in the cards was ramming considered.

1. Le sigh. Okay, no chunks are flying off because the Freespace engine can't do things like that without the ship blowing up entirely. This is why you don't see chunks of anything flying off a Hecate when it's down to 1 hitpoint. Even so, what definitely DOES matter is that the Carthage's structural integrity, armor, power/systems, and damage control are all significantly compromised. The Carthage, IIRC, always ends up with between 45 and 72 percent of its health by the time the Impereiuse shows up.

2. Not really. Sure, it's not particularly dense, but it has a lot more than a couple mass drivers. It's got huge sections of thick armor plating, a half-dozen main cannons, and a good amount of structure in general. Not ideal, of course, but sufficient. Besides, it's easier when you're ramming an area whose armor has been shredded and punctured like swiss cheese (and damaged hull integrity in the entire section in general).

3. It is when you're talking about a massive warship. And again, ramming the side of a ship that's taken a huge and thorough beating in most cases (a decent beating in the rest).

4. Actually, yes, that is exactly what happens. The BGreen's pierce right through the Orion, and unless there's still Orion-matter in the pillars of gigaton-level plasma beams, that's a ton of matter that just got removed from the equation. It's also traveling in the opposite direction of the Orion's velocity, slowing it down. Then, an Orion (at least FS2-era Orions) generally does not have good speed or acceleration. Next, the Orion's structural integrity got ripped to shreds, meaning that the effectiveness of a ramming would be reduced--the ram would crumple and break apart entirely upon significant contact.

5. Not just in gravity; acceleration and other forms of force are at play as well. Square-cube law applies when you have a massive starship propelling itself with huge engines at significant speeds--if the Colossus' "skeleton" was made out of tissue paper, it would fall apart when maneuvering.

6. Same points of above apply. And if a significant number of playthroughs in the mission result in the Orion failing to even touch the Colossus, it kind of says something about how good of a ramming attempt it was in the first place (low speed, severely compromised hull integrity, brief contact with target hull before the entire ship falls apart).

7. Seemed to be a first resort for those kamikaze bombers/fighters attacking that Orion back in FS1 (which were quite destructive). Oh, and the Nelson in WiH's intro, where it literally utilized ramming as a first resort. The entire plan was to have the cruisers punch a "hole" through the formation so that the Nelson could ram the Atreus. The Nelson didn't even seem to have taken any damage prior to that, as well. Also, I think DE counts as last resort--you need that ship dead, no matter the cost.

8. The mission's name is ****ing DELENDA EST. "The Carthage must be destroyed." "Also, I think Carthage needs to be destroyed." The phrase meaning "the mentality of NEEDING to destroy X, no matter how long it takes or how difficult it might be." Everyone in the briefing repeatedly hammers home how killing the Carthage is a huge deal--it's less about the strategic or tactical victory, and more about the political one. If you believe that killing this ship will likely cause the war to lose major favor within the GTVA population (and maybe leadership), that's more valuable than capturing two Agincourts. Or three. And they're clearly not afraid to die, or to face long odds. They clearly view the destruction of the Carthage as the likely end of the war (at least figuratively) whether they survive or not. Saving a couple Karunas is really not going to help much in the long run, but killing the Carthage is a game-changer. Oh, and they all knew better than to think a frontal assault on a Titan and Chimera (complete with advanced fighters and bombers) would last more than a minute or two. So if you send the Indus and Yangtze to run because they're the only ones who can escape (wait, what about that Sanctus that jumped in with you in the beginning? Aren't cruisers more subspace maneuverable?), and the rest of the force starts tearing apart the Carthage (using it as a shield of necessary) and ramming it. It's a hell of a lot better for a diversion--I'm not sure the Imperieuse and Hydra even had to slow down as they obliterated the UEF ships one-by-one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on August 14, 2012, 04:56:18 pm
1. Le sigh. Okay, no chunks are flying off because the Freespace engine can't do things like that without the ship blowing up entirely. This is why you don't see chunks of anything flying off a Hecate when it's down to 1 hitpoint.

Assertion unsupported by evidence. Simply because the engine is not equipped to show this does not, in the end, mean jack **** about whether such damage is actually occurring, and if you can devise a method by which the UEF's particular sort of weaponry is going to remove huge portions of the ship's mass rather than do its damage by shock (explosives) and penetration (mass drivers), we'll talk again.

You would do well to reread the TVTropes page you cited earlier, particular its commentary on the efficiency of ramming attacks between spacecraft at relatively low speeds, which is directly on-point.

2. Not really. Sure, it's not particularly dense, but it has a lot more than a couple mass drivers. It's got huge sections of thick armor plating, a half-dozen main cannons, and a good amount of structure in general. Not ideal, of course, but sufficient. Besides, it's easier when you're ramming an area whose armor has been shredded and punctured like swiss cheese (and damaged hull integrity in the entire section in general).

So now you're giving both ships force-absorbing crumple zones that will reduce the efficiency of a ramming attack? Good to know! A ramming attack at such low speeds would be more effective against a pristine ship than one whose integrity is compromised.

3. It is when you're talking about a massive warship. And again, ramming the side of a ship that's taken a huge and thorough beating in most cases (a decent beating in the rest).

Ramming a considerably more massive ship. Honestly at this point you're going to rock the Carthage a little bit and kill everyone aboard the Karuna as it absorbs most of the force.


4. Actually, yes, that is exactly what happens. The BGreen's pierce right through the Orion, and unless there's still Orion-matter in the pillars of gigaton-level plasma beams, that's a ton of matter that just got removed from the equation. It's also traveling in the opposite direction of the Orion's velocity, slowing it down. Then, an Orion (at least FS2-era Orions) generally does not have good speed or acceleration. Next, the Orion's structural integrity got ripped to shreds, meaning that the effectiveness of a ramming would be reduced--the ram would crumple and break apart entirely upon significant contact.

Lies and damn lies. This happens only beneath a certain hull percentage; and Koth's usually still above it when it hits. (In all the times I've played that mission, I've never once seen the behavior you describe and the Orion make contact.) This assertion about beams having meaningful ability to change velocity vector of a capital craft is totally unsupported by any evidence from canon and can be safely discarded.

5. Not just in gravity; acceleration and other forms of force are at play as well. Square-cube law applies when you have a massive starship propelling itself with huge engines at significant speeds--if the Colossus' "skeleton" was made out of tissue paper, it would fall apart when maneuvering.

Negligible compared to gravity. Seriously, listen to yourself, you're talking about a ship that would be utterly impossible to construct inside a gravity well; the Colossus is pretty close to the size of Manhattan Island. Only in space could this exist and there's a reason for that.

6. Same points of above apply. And if a significant number of playthroughs in the mission result in the Orion failing to even touch the Colossus, it kind of says something about how good of a ramming attempt it was in the first place (low speed, severely compromised hull integrity, brief contact with target hull before the entire ship falls apart).

Well, produce the significant number without interacting with either ship then. I haven't seen it happen but one or twice. I'm suspicious it can without direct intervention of the player.

7. Seemed to be a first resort for those kamikaze bombers/fighters attacking that Orion back in FS1 (which were quite destructive).

Ships which were prepared prior to takeoff for the specific purpose of engaging in ramming attacks, by, oh yeah, the one assuredly non-rational group in all FS, the Hammer of Light. Also comparing the loss of a few fighters and bombers to the loss of an elite multi-capital strikeforce. If you can't see the problem with that comparison then I think this discussion is over, as nothing more can accomplished with it.

Oh, and the Nelson in WiH's intro, where it literally utilized ramming as a first resort. The entire plan was to have the cruisers punch a "hole" through the formation so that the Nelson could ram the Atreus. The Nelson didn't even seem to have taken any damage prior to that, as well. Also, I think DE counts as last resort--you need that ship dead, no matter the cost.

The entire intro is a far more desperate situation than Delenda Est is (at least until the arrival of the Imperieuse) and your comparison is as such incredibly poorly founded.

8. The mission's name is ****ing DELENDA EST. "The Carthage must be destroyed." "Also, I think Carthage needs to be destroyed." The phrase meaning "the mentality of NEEDING to destroy X, no matter how long it takes or how difficult it might be."  Everyone in the briefing repeatedly hammers home how killing the Carthage is a huge deal--it's less about the strategic or tactical victory, and more about the political one. If you believe that killing this ship will likely cause the war to lose major favor within the GTVA population (and maybe leadership), that's more valuable than capturing two Agincourts. Or three. And they're clearly not afraid to die, or to face long odds. They clearly view the destruction of the Carthage as the likely end of the war (at least figuratively) whether they survive or not. Saving a couple Karunas is really not going to help much in the long run, but killing the Carthage is a game-changer. Oh, and they all knew better than to think a frontal assault on a Titan and Chimera (complete with advanced fighters and bombers) would last more than a minute or two. So if you send the Indus and Yangtze to run because they're the only ones who can escape (wait, what about that Sanctus that jumped in with you in the beginning? Aren't cruisers more subspace maneuverable?), and the rest of the force starts tearing apart the Carthage (using it as a shield of necessary) and ramming it. It's a hell of a lot better for a diversion--I'm not sure the Imperieuse and Hydra even had to slow down as they obliterated the UEF ships one-by-one.

Hey, I've got news for you: the mission names aren't a form of in-universe canon, they're essentially author commentary.

There was every reason to believe the Carthage could be destroyed by more conventional and less costly tactics; lest we forget, that would have actually happened had the Imperieuse not intervened. The very fact the mission as it ultimately plays out involves no attempt to ram it when things go south can be taken as strong evidence that it wouldn't have accomplished anything that hadn't already been done. Again, BP has gone out of its way to portray no one as a fool, so your argument that people are behaving as fools requires significantly greater evidence than you have been able to muster.

There's also the minor matter that the arrival of the Imperieuse illustrates there has been a serious failure in UEF intelligence. The game is up; you have been sent on a fool's errand, likely in more ways than one. We have no reason to believe that the pretenses under which you were lured to assault the Carthage are true any more than we do the intelligence estimates which said it would be unsupported by the Imperiesue were. Steele is exactly the sort of person to remember Evil Overlord List #228, and everyone involved knows it by now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on August 14, 2012, 05:16:23 pm
SaltyWaffles, while I applaud your desire to publicly question the presented events (in deed considered posts to do this are healthy for the community), there come to the point where you have to think to yourself that regardless of if the other person(s) is right or wrong you are achieving nothing further by following the current line of thought.

I will leave most if NGTM-1R's points alone as IIRC he significantly more knowledgeable than me in this area but.

DELENDA EST = to be destroyed

without a subject the title is meaning less.  Going in the player assumes (should they translate it) that it refers to the Carthage, but as it is not referenced it could easily mean the War Gods as actually happens.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on August 14, 2012, 05:56:44 pm
Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on August 14, 2012, 06:42:04 pm
I must admit to having never come across the full phrase before and had no idea of the implication or historical context, I just guessed it was Latin and told google to translate it.

so yes to a good number the title has that implication but also the lack of the full phrase also opens up the meaning.  word games are fun eh :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on August 15, 2012, 09:15:45 am
Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy. :P

Yeah that's kind of what headdie was saying I think. You go in with the expectation that the Carthage will be destroyed, further reinforced by the mission title if you know the phrase it's derived from. And then Steele and Darius and Battuta are like "No no, we meant 'Wargods delenda est' muahahahaaha!" It's just one more layer to how you're set up to expect one thing and then totally ****ed over instead, and that's why DE and WiH in general are so great.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on August 16, 2012, 12:19:22 am
Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy. :P

Yeah that's kind of what headdie was saying I think. You go in with the expectation that the Carthage will be destroyed, further reinforced by the mission title if you know the phrase it's derived from. And then Steele and Darius and Battuta are like "No no, we meant 'Wargods delenda est' muahahahaaha!" It's just one more layer to how you're set up to expect one thing and then totally ****ed over instead, and that's why DE and WiH in general are so great.

Except that, at the very least, the UEF/Wargods displayed the spirit/mentality of delenda est far more than anyone in the GTVA did. Destroying the Wargods was not the only major victory possible, major path to ultimate victory available, and not the ultimate revenge/triumph over one's hated foe. The Wargods, with some major assistance, stole the Agincourt and destroyed its escort, yes, but it's no humiliation or point of resentment for Steele--a high-level GTVA admiral leaked critical intel that allowed the operation to even be possible in the first place, and the UEF brought half (roughly) of its assets to bear to ensure the operation's success--and even then, Steele had managed to inflict serious losses onto the UEF, and he had a backup contingency plan in place anyway. And all of the major people involved on the GTVA's side know that, too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 16, 2012, 02:47:47 am
Quote
Except that, at the very least, the UEF/Wargods displayed the spirit/mentality of delenda est far more than anyone in the GTVA did.

Except that, at the very least, this does not matter in the slightest.

As has been pointed out, mission names do not exist in-universe, and are more of a sort of commentary on the mission itself. Given that they are known to the player before the mission starts, some of them are also deliberately misleading, a narrative device that goes back to Volition and "Their Finest Hour"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on August 16, 2012, 08:46:26 am
Well, the term DELENDA EST comes from, historically, "CARTHAGO DELENDA EST", or "Carthage Must Be Destroyed".
They may have excised the Carthage portion from it, but it is still obvious what it's referencing, given that you know the historical usage of the phrase.

Especially since, you know, there's a ship called the GTD Carthage, that you're trying to destroy. :P

Yeah that's kind of what headdie was saying I think. You go in with the expectation that the Carthage will be destroyed, further reinforced by the mission title if you know the phrase it's derived from. And then Steele and Darius and Battuta are like "No no, we meant 'Wargods delenda est' muahahahaaha!" It's just one more layer to how you're set up to expect one thing and then totally ****ed over instead, and that's why DE and WiH in general are so great.

Except that, at the very least, the UEF/Wargods displayed the spirit/mentality of delenda est far more than anyone in the GTVA did. Destroying the Wargods was not the only major victory possible, major path to ultimate victory available, and not the ultimate revenge/triumph over one's hated foe. The Wargods, with some major assistance, stole the Agincourt and destroyed its escort, yes, but it's no humiliation or point of resentment for Steele--a high-level GTVA admiral leaked critical intel that allowed the operation to even be possible in the first place, and the UEF brought half (roughly) of its assets to bear to ensure the operation's success--and even then, Steele had managed to inflict serious losses onto the UEF, and he had a backup contingency plan in place anyway. And all of the major people involved on the GTVA's side know that, too.


You would complain about the plot holes and illogical storytelling in a history book.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 16, 2012, 08:53:50 am
This is sooooo going to end up with a "the Moon landing was a lie !".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on August 16, 2012, 02:24:43 pm
This is sooooo going to end up with a "the Moon landing was a lie !".

Implying the moon landing was real.   :nono:

[/justkiddingbytheway]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on August 16, 2012, 02:36:07 pm
self fulfilling prophesy  :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Medve on August 20, 2012, 09:59:28 am
I know the REAL ending, and it has no plotholes whatsoever.

I've read a book. What now?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 20, 2012, 12:12:00 pm
Make a spin-off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on August 20, 2012, 04:55:18 pm
Medve, please make a deconstruction of Blue Planet analyzing the plot, the characters, the setting and comparing  it to an Evangelion with a plot that makes sense.  :o
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: yuezhi on August 20, 2012, 05:36:31 pm
I know the REAL ending, and it has no plotholes whatsoever.

I've read a book. What now?
in that case, i guess the OFFICIAL ending will disappoint you.:P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Medve on August 20, 2012, 06:12:03 pm
I'm not exactly sure if all of you got that reference, but I can assure you, it didn't have any seriousness whatsoever :D Nevertheless, I liked the actual ending of the campaign along with the story, and I'm reaaallly not into looking for/caring about plotholes (it takes away from the experience, really). Sperging out and nerdraging about it just isn't my style.

So An4ximandros, even though it is the trend to do such things, I will have to disappoint you :)

Dekker however, that spinoff idea sounds amazing. I'll write about that time when I got hugged by Mr. Cuddles, and how I won the war all by myself. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 21, 2012, 06:08:24 am
That's the spirit!! :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on August 21, 2012, 08:30:50 am
Please make sure to go into detail, eventually you'll have enough material to make it into it's own story, just like Darius turned his Inferno Fan-Fic into BP. :pimp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sgtbeil on August 28, 2012, 12:04:29 am
Now after playing through WiH for like the 15th time, I really must say that you guys should get a bit of a move on eh? ;p haha
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on August 29, 2012, 01:56:39 am
Heh, I rather get the same feeling myself.

I fully understand these things take time, its just that is the sort of time that thought crosses my mind...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 29, 2012, 02:11:49 am
I was thinking that the GTVA sided spin-off/fan campaign would be released before WIH2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 29, 2012, 02:14:23 am
I think that thing died a few months after starting...

There's still traces of it in the BP beta svn, haven't taken a look at it yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 29, 2012, 02:16:27 am
I'd quite like to take part in Delenda Est from the other side.
Also Sunflare  ;7
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on August 29, 2012, 07:08:33 am
Uhm... guys.... i realy dont want to sound impatient, but....
could u at least give us SOMETHING to get the story on?

I am reading HLP Forums since a while (actually, couple of years) and i know what happened to a lot of campaigns in that time.

Derelict still lacks a conclusion to some of its storylines, Inferno was never finished and the rerelease is still something i have to wait for (and as they allready moved the release date back a couple of times i dont think it will happen this decade) and now BP also seems to stand still for the moment.

Of course i have absolutly no insight into what is going on behind the scenes, but it would be realy nice if we could get at least something, even if it is just a single mission for the moment. I've seen so many stuff die on HLP, i am simply afraid this could happen again.

Oh and btw: Dual Captcha WTF?!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on August 29, 2012, 07:20:21 am
Don't worry! BP is still alive, just a bit sleepy. Axem prods at it every now and then, and it'll wake up once I hit my uni holidays.

Act 3 is pretty much done and tested. Currently working on Act 4, which all bar a couple of missions are gameplay complete (just requiring briefings, debriefing and fiction). If unrest gets too high and the populace starts rioting we can certainly release Act 3 but I'd like to get Act 4 done at the very least before release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on August 29, 2012, 09:14:46 am
So about 75~80% of the mod is complete?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on August 29, 2012, 09:17:50 am
It's not very helpful to think about it in terms of percentages. Yes, the biggest part of development is done, but that doesn't mean the final bits and pieces are in any way easy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on August 29, 2012, 09:25:44 am
I think it's better to assume that P2 will be released in Aug. 2014.  Then if it comes earlier, it's an awesome surprise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on August 29, 2012, 09:45:54 am
And if it comes later, then, we know whose house to burn down  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on August 29, 2012, 09:49:20 am
I think it's better to assume that P2 will be released in Aug. 2014. 

You have angered the gods...............
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on August 29, 2012, 09:53:11 am
I think it's better to assume that P2 will be released in Aug. 2014.  Then if it comes earlier, it's an awesome surprise.

I realy, realy hope it comes earlier. I mean, if he would have said 2013... but 2014?  :banghead:

U know it is not even sure that we survive december 2012?^^ (Not that i belive this crap :lol:).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on August 29, 2012, 10:25:11 am
If  Rapture was supposed to be in December, (https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Valve_Time) Half-Life 2: Episode Three would have been done by now and Valve's teasing us.

Also, I don't care about the timeframe (I mean, you guys aren't on some restrictive schedule, right? What matters is the final product... ish), I think I've waited at least four years for a bunch of things to come out (one wasn't probably worth it, the rest are still midway through development, one of the longer waits is still currently The Hobbit). I think my level of patience is way too high.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on August 29, 2012, 12:09:06 pm
I think that thing died a few months after starting...

There's still traces of it in the BP beta svn, haven't taken a look at it yet.

Unfortunately, mostly true.  Snail has dropped off the face of the Earth (again), and I haven't heard much from Dilmah outside of GD in months.  I've made a little bit of progress on what I was doing, but it's inconsistent and qualitatively not where I think it should be.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on August 29, 2012, 02:31:09 pm
Well, you can take all the time you need (heck, even a decade :rolleyes:) BUT, promise me that you WILL NOT DIE! :warp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on August 29, 2012, 06:37:13 pm
"Every time someone asks when WIH2 will be released, a kitten dies."

I think I heard someone say that once.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sgtbeil on August 29, 2012, 10:03:13 pm
Don't worry! BP is still alive, just a bit sleepy. Axem prods at it every now and then, and it'll wake up once I hit my uni holidays.

Act 3 is pretty much done and tested. Currently working on Act 4, which all bar a couple of missions are gameplay complete (just requiring briefings, debriefing and fiction). If unrest gets too high and the populace starts rioting we can certainly release Act 3 but I'd like to get Act 4 done at the very least before release.

I certainly agree with your logic, and it would make a lot of sense to wait until Act 4 is completed, but! We haven't really gotten our fix in about 2 whole years! Were getting a little jumpy and tweaky hahaha
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dilmah G on August 29, 2012, 10:25:31 pm
Unfortunately, mostly true.  Snail has dropped off the face of the Earth (again), and I haven't heard much from Dilmah outside of GD in months.  I've made a little bit of progress on what I was doing, but it's inconsistent and qualitatively not where I think it should be.
Yeah, FS is something I'd like to get onto, but at the moment the fact that my computer is now 5 years old is making running things on the higher end of the scale a little difficult. I'd be really keen to get it back off the ground, actually, but this week and part of next is pretty tough for me, assignments-wise.

I'll take a look over the internal again and get myself back up to speed in the meantime.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on August 30, 2012, 04:21:41 am
If unrest gets too high and the populace starts rioting we can certainly release Act 3 but I'd like to get Act 4 done at the very least before release.
Are you playing Total War? Make sure to have a militia in every thread, and if you're playing Napoleon, then be careful of revolution.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on August 30, 2012, 06:37:14 am
Solution to the lack of patience, release a half botched side campaign ,à la Blade Itself, and don't patch it, then we'll appreciate you taking your time to make the actual campaign.

Or just tell us to suck it up and make our own campaigns :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on August 30, 2012, 06:46:37 am
Suck it up and make your own campaign.

You're welcome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on August 30, 2012, 07:01:40 am
I'd rather we get a full p2 release, regardless of how long the wait might be.  Take your time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on August 30, 2012, 11:18:01 am
Yes, that will be the best outcome for all concerned.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sgtbeil on August 30, 2012, 11:55:03 am
The only high I enjoy is the high I get from bringing laughter to the world and playing WiH...and occasionally crystal meth :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on August 30, 2012, 10:39:11 pm
I'd rather we get a full p2 release, regardless of how long the wait might be.  Take your time.

Not necessarily a "full" release though.   I say this because (it reminds me of), years ago when BWO was still at least semi-active, someone asked whether people would want the basic campaign as soon as it was done or wait a couple more months or so for it to be released with voice acting in it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on August 30, 2012, 11:46:43 pm
well both BP campaigns so far have been released without VA, so i don't think that will be a problem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on August 31, 2012, 10:47:54 am
At this point in HLP's life, I believe we're well aware that voice acting will never take a couple of months. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on August 31, 2012, 01:39:07 pm
I don't mind how long it takes as long as the result is on par with the rest of WiH.

It's one of the very few games I usually boot up around once a month cause I get the urge to play/see a specific mission. One Perfect Moment, Sunglare, Artemis Station, Ken and The Plunder are my usual suspects, but every mission had something to offer and I never felt there was a mission that I just wanted to get through to advance like some of the FS2 retail missions (looking at you Sathanas scanning mission!).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on August 31, 2012, 02:21:17 pm
It's one of the very few games I usually boot up around once a month cause I get the urge to play/see a specific mission. One Perfect Moment, Sunglare, Artemis Station, Ken and The Plunder are my usual suspects, but every mission had something to offer and I never felt there was a mission that I just wanted to get through to advance like some of the FS2 retail missions (looking at you Sathanas scanning mission!).

Ah, Sunglare, it still send shivers down my spine and I get a serious case of the goosebumps. Even after my 50th play-through of the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on August 31, 2012, 02:50:12 pm
Yeah, kudos to whoever set up all the camera angles in that mission and synced it to the music, the presentation was top notch.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on August 31, 2012, 03:18:33 pm
Yeah, kudos to whoever set up all the camera angles in that mission and synced it to the music, the presentation was top notch.

What he said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 01, 2012, 12:24:45 pm
Yeah, kudos to whoever set up all the camera angles in that mission and synced it to the music, the presentation was top notch.

What he said.
I too agree, though I'd like to inculde the intro into this compliment as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 13, 2012, 12:57:34 pm
I love you guys! You are all awesome.

I'd like to segue from there into a promise: if we cannot finish the Blue Planet story, if it appears that the project is at a dead halt for good, we will write the rest up as a piece of fiction and give it to you. We're very confident in our story, particularly in how it steers clear of the easy, cheap endings a lot of people have assumed and rebukes some of the weaknesses of earlier BP material (the Shivans are dumb/not scary, the Vishnans are boring/too friendly, the GTVA is blindly aggressive, the UEF is foolish and complacent)

I don't think many of us are at a place in our lives where we can continue to work on BP2 forty hours a week, as I was doing in the months before WiH came out. You're all right to think that progress has bottomed out; if we were still working at the same pace we did during R1, R2 would be done. But we love the project and we're so grateful for the community's continued interest and support. One way or another we'll wrap it up.

Though I will admit that I'm deeply exasperated at some of the discussions still going on. Ramming the Carthage would not have worked in a million billion years and I actually spent a ridiculous amount of development time making sure Delenda Est had to play out the way it did.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sgtbeil on September 13, 2012, 08:55:43 pm
I love you guys! You are all awesome.

I'd like to segue from there into a promise: if we cannot finish the Blue Planet story, if it appears that the project is at a dead halt for good, we will write the rest up as a piece of fiction and give it to you. We're very confident in our story, particularly in how it steers clear of the easy, cheap endings a lot of people have assumed and rebukes some of the weaknesses of earlier BP material (the Shivans are dumb/not scary, the Vishnans are boring/too friendly, the GTVA is blindly aggressive, the UEF is foolish and complacent)

I don't think many of us are at a place in our lives where we can continue to work on BP2 forty hours a week, as I was doing in the months before WiH came out. You're all right to think that progress has bottomed out; if we were still working at the same pace we did during R1, R2 would be done. But we love the project and we're so grateful for the community's continued interest and support. One way or another we'll wrap it up.

Though I will admit that I'm deeply exasperated at some of the discussions still going on. Ramming the Carthage would not have worked in a million billion years and I actually spent a ridiculous amount of development time making sure Delenda Est had to play out the way it did.

Kudos to the BP team. But didn't you mention that you were near done Act 4? Worse comes to worse(I sure as hell hope not), why not do the bare minimum rather than release a written piece of fiction? Even if its not 100% up to par with R1, I'm sure that we'll all understand. Who else other than the amazing BP team took the time to put this amount of effort into anything? In conclusion, I love you all (strictly platonicly (no homo :P)) and hopefully R2 will be released before I leave for basic training in a couple months
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on September 13, 2012, 09:16:51 pm
Or the fanbase could stop being an ungrateful rabid savage horde and let the developers of this mod finish with the same level of quality they felt was right, seriously, we understand something of this scale takes time, and is worth the wait, Darius did Age of Aquarius ALONE and we got something awesome in the end, since then BP has had a mark of quality associated with it, let them take all the time they need to keep it, don't want to wait? Join the team then, if you can't do anything for them, then quiet down and be patient, these are people that put time and effort into something free for us to enjoy while having no obligation to do so, they can take all the bloody time they want.

I came to the conclusion we have been ungrateful churls towards these guys after taking a good long look at these threads today, really people, if we want to help, we need to step up the effort.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on September 13, 2012, 10:28:30 pm
But why? I would have rammed the Carthage!
Dammit it's a valid option NANANANANANANAA I'M NOT HEARING YOU!!!




in case someone cannot detect the sarcasm:
:p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on September 13, 2012, 10:42:04 pm
(http://img.geocaching.com/benchmark/2f53dc4a-30c8-4f45-b8a7-411c2b605b1a.jpg)
How would ramming this be of any use on that mission? I still can't believe I found a gas tower named Carthage...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 14, 2012, 03:38:48 am
Considering how far along WiH2 is according to the team and considering them mention of Shivans and Vishnans (combined with earlier comments about the GTVA-UEF war being played out between the Human factions) I think General Battuta was more talking about BP3 when mentioning a fiction release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on September 14, 2012, 03:42:58 am
Indeed. Personally, I am pretty confident we can get R2 out the door eventually; it's BP3 that may be somewhat problematic. That said, it's something we're going to take a good long look at once R2 is done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sgtbeil on September 14, 2012, 08:56:55 pm
Indeed. Personally, I am pretty confident we can get R2 out the door eventually; it's BP3 that may be somewhat problematic. That said, it's something we're going to take a good long look at once R2 is done.

Personally, ill respect every decision the team makes
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Generalgreen on September 16, 2012, 04:36:41 pm
This by far has been the most heart breaking campaign I've ever played, not only in freespace, compared to any other campaign, Job well done guys. :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 17, 2012, 04:40:23 am
I'd like to ask questions regarding the TerSlashBlueAAA:
I don't know how effective it actually is ingame, but it does look pretty cool to see a ship equiped with them fire away at another capship (reminds me a lot of one faction in "Conquest Frontier Wars"), so I was wondering why it wasn't put on any ship and wether we'll see it show up in WiH2?
Is it, from a story point of view an actual seperate weapon, or is it an anti-capship beam reconfigured in the field to deal with enemy fighter swarms (much like the LRBGreen is supposed to be an overcharged BGreen)?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on September 17, 2012, 04:49:33 am
so I was wondering why it wasn't put on any ship and wether we'll see it show up in WiH2?
Wrong. The Leviathans on the Carthage's battlegroup use TerSlashAAA. Some Deimos of the Carthage's battlegroup as well too, IIRC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on September 17, 2012, 09:35:51 pm
I love you guys! You are all awesome.
I feel the same way about everyone on the dev team; the quality of your work is astounding in both intent and execution.

Quote
Though I will admit that I'm deeply exasperated at some of the discussions still going on. Ramming the Carthage would not have worked in a million billion years and I actually spent a ridiculous amount of development time making sure Delenda Est had to play out the way it did.
Erm...look, ramming or not, the question I was trying to convey was 'why not just take the Carthage down with you (and maybe just have the Indus and Yangtze retreat, though they could still spam their Apoc torpedoes while running) instead of rushing to knowingly commit suicide against the Imperieuse and Hydra?' The Wargods knew/believed strongly that killing the Carthage would have a dramatic political and morale impact on the war, beyond just killing a military asset, and they were certainly not afraid to die (Katana and Altan Orde were practically Death Seekers...), so why not take the certain major victory to balance out the certain major defeat instead of throwing away a major victory so that a certain major defeat wouldn't be quite as major (though the morale blow would still be huge)? Especially when it would probably divert the Imperieuse's attention far more effectively than lining up for a BBlue and MBlue shooting gallery at optimum range (did the Imperieuse even have to slow down?), a fleet carrier's fighter and bomber wings, dozens of pulse turrets, and salvos of Supernova torpedoes (can the TerSlashBlues also fire at them too? If so, it almost feels like overkill at that point).

Not that, of course, the mission itself wasn't a masterpiece of setting, mood/tone, unpredictable twists and turns with your emotions and expectations in the face of extraordinary risk and gain,  brilliant characterization/development/death, and spectacle. And music. THE MUSIC. And it still works plot-wise, this is more of a curiosity than anything.

-----


Also, I happened to finish up the first real 'mission'/map I tried making with FRED, and put a little bit of polish and tweaking into it in order to make it passable for use outside of my own. I'd largely forgotten about it for weeks/months, but now that my FRED 'skills'/knowledge have grown enough to make something functional, I thought I'd at least put the question out there--it's a quirky/humorous Tev guantlet mission that doubles as a playground for trying out various FS2, BP, and BP2 craft, weaponry, etc. Successive waves of common and advanced Tev fighters, many (and diverse) options for assistance in the reinforcements menu, a UEI Bretonnia instillation for some fun/cover/diversity, and way, way too many Starfox 64 jokes.

...come on, you know you've always wanted to see BALLSOFSTEELE Spacesuit kamikaze stealth warriors with Helios-scale special explosions upon death. You know you do.

Seriously, though, if there's any interest in trying it out, let me know. I'll figure out some way to host it, then (can I make it an attachment?).

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on September 17, 2012, 10:07:22 pm
Though I will admit that I'm deeply exasperated at some of the discussions still going on. Ramming the Carthage would not have worked in a million billion years and I actually spent a ridiculous amount of development time making sure Delenda Est had to play out the way it did.
If we didn't love the game, we wouldn't still be analyzing one decision made by a tertiary character over two years after it was released. Nobody involved in that discussion thinks you or any of the other designers are lazy/idiots/whatever. I'm just of the opinion that the decision to charge the Imperieuse works quite well as a questionable judgement call on the part of a UEF captain who had a case of survivor's guilt and placed a higher value on saving his comrades than killing his enemies. Intended or not, there's plenty in the game to back that interpretation up.

So, congratulations, you wrote a complex and compelling story with lots of room for interpretation and believable, fallible, human, characters. Now go back to feeling exasperated with me for thinking that. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2012, 10:11:59 pm
Erm...look, ramming or not, the question I was trying to convey was 'why not just take the Carthage down with you (and maybe just have the Indus and Yangtze retreat, though they could still spam their Apoc torpedoes while running) instead of rushing to knowingly commit suicide against the Imperieuse and Hydra?'

It's not knowing suicide. In fact, in early versions of the mission, before the Imperieuse got her fighter screen and more armor on her forward beams, the Wargods would routinely shoot out her spinal emitters, get abeam, and torpedo her to death. Attacking the Imperieuse was their only chance at mission success.

Quote
The Wargods knew/believed strongly that killing the Carthage would have a dramatic political and morale impact on the war, beyond just killing a military asset, and they were certainly not afraid to die (Katana and Altan Orde were practically Death Seekers...), so why not take the certain major victory to balance out the certain major defeat instead of throwing away a major victory so that a certain major defeat wouldn't be quite as major (though the morale blow would still be huge)? Especially when it would probably divert the Imperieuse's attention far more effectively than lining up for a BBlue and MBlue shooting gallery at optimum range (did the Imperieuse even have to slow down?), a fleet carrier's fighter and bomber wings, dozens of pulse turrets, and salvos of Supernova torpedoes (can the TerSlashBlues also fire at them too? If so, it almost feels like overkill at that point).

Killing the Carthage doesn't do the UEF much good unless the Wargods get away without heavy losses. Remember that much of the mission's intended impact is political, both among the GTVA populace and its leadership. 'Steele ****s up and loses a storied destroyer' gets him sacked and stirs up already pretty virulent doubt. But a narrative where the veteran GTD Carthage goes down in take-no-prisoners battle against fanatical UEF hunter-killers, bloodying them badly in the process, doesn't achieve that.

This is all kind of beside the point, though. The Wargods simply did not have the firepower to kill the Carthage before the enemy was upon them (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The Katana and Altan Orde likely did not have the speed to escape the Imperieuse's beam envelope before they were destroyed, or at least before taking a crippling hit to the engines (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The optimal decision, political considerations aside, was to attempt to disable the Imperieuse and its escorts.

*I leave the asterisk here because all this tuning was done before literal months of balance adjustment and finessed timing, so it's actually possible a lot of this broke. But it should hold.

I believe I still have a version of the mission saved where the Imperieuse never arrives and the Wargods succeed, another where they attempt to destroy the Carthage instead of the Imperieuse (and get massacred), and another where all four frigates try to run and get shot to **** by a combination of beam fire and the Silver Scythes (who normally spend that battle attacking the Katana and AO).

I'm just of the opinion that the decision to charge the Imperieuse works quite well as a questionable judgement call on the part of a UEF captain who had a case of survivor's guilt and placed a higher value on saving his comrades than killing his enemies. Intended or not, there's plenty in the game to back that interpretation up.

And yeah, I should've mentioned that The Blade Itself was really intended to bring out the character side of this decision. It's a shame most people probably play it after Delenda Est - but on the other hand maybe it's best that way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on September 17, 2012, 10:54:33 pm

Killing the Carthage doesn't do the UEF much good unless the Wargods get away without heavy losses. Remember that much of the mission's intended impact is political, both among the GTVA populace and its leadership. 'Steele ****s up and loses a storied destroyer' gets him sacked and stirs up already pretty virulent doubt. But a narrative where the veteran GTD Carthage goes down in take-no-prisoners battle against fanatical UEF hunter-killers, bloodying them badly in the process, doesn't achieve that.

This is all kind of beside the point, though. The Wargods simply did not have the firepower to kill the Carthage before the enemy was upon them (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The Katana and Altan Orde likely did not have the speed to escape the Imperieuse's beam envelope before they were destroyed, or at least before taking a crippling hit to the engines (the mission was carefully designed to ensure this*). The optimal decision, political considerations aside, was to attempt to disable the Imperieuse and its escorts.

*I leave the asterisk here because all this tuning was done before literal months of balance adjustment and finessed timing, so it's actually possible a lot of this broke. But it should hold.

I believe I still have a version of the mission saved where the Imperieuse never arrives and the Wargods succeed, another where they attempt to destroy the Carthage instead of the Imperieuse (and get massacred), and another where all four frigates try to run and get shot to **** by a combination of beam fire and the Silver Scythes (who normally spend that battle attacking the Katana and AO).

Ah; this helps a great deal. I never experienced DE in its original, intended form--from 50 absurdly unsuccessful attempts back when it was dual-bugged (Armageddon bombers and Karuna suicides) to the 'still need to use cheats to ensure Katana and Altan Orde don't blow themselves up 'till the Imperieuse arrives' approach, I never could get a clear picture of that very fine 'plot-target' you were aiming for. Thank you for clearing that up.

Though...I'm having a hard time picturing the exact look of a situation where TF Wargods can't kill the Carthage before getting destroyed themselves by the Imperieuse. Between 4 Karunas' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Apoc torp spam, and 2 Sanctus' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Warhammer spam, and all the collective point defense turrets and burst flaks...that's a lot of firepower. Isn't the Carthage normally at least down to 75% hull before the Imperieuse even shows up? Even for the upgrades the Carthage has over a typical Orion, it's hard to imagine her taking a beating like that for very long at all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 17, 2012, 11:10:13 pm
I don't know why that mission has gotten so screwy. It was so close to perfect at patch 1.1. Maybe it's a framerate thing. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on September 18, 2012, 07:55:53 am
I don't know why that mission has gotten so screwy. It was so close to perfect at patch 1.1. Maybe it's a framerate thing. :(

Well, you and the BP team have always admitted it was on the razor's edge, balance-wise. I'm actually surprised that that Wargods would neuter and kill the Imp without plot armor. I haven't played DE in a while; guess it's time to give it a try to see if I spot anything funky.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on September 18, 2012, 08:15:43 am
Though...I'm having a hard time picturing the exact look of a situation where TF Wargods can't kill the Carthage before getting destroyed themselves by the Imperieuse. Between 4 Karunas' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Apoc torp spam, and 2 Sanctus' worth of mass drivers, gauss cannons, Warhammer spam, and all the collective point defense turrets and burst flaks...that's a lot of firepower. Isn't the Carthage normally at least down to 75% hull before the Imperieuse even shows up? Even for the upgrades the Carthage has over a typical Orion, it's hard to imagine her taking a beating like that for very long at all.
Armor, damage control, and the like. In the same mission, the Indus and Yangtze both receive a heavier armor class after they've taken some damage, and get substantial numbers of hit points restored in-mission. The Carthage can play by the same rules--just because hull integrity is at 75% doesn't mean the job is a quarter of the way done.

The Wargods' only hope would be to use their superior speed and maneuverability to keep the Carthage interposed between themselves and the Imperieuse. They'd still have the Hydra and lots of bomber wings to contend with, plus the Carthage's own beams, and at any rate, we've had about two years longer than the five seconds or so that Gennady had to come up with a plan. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on September 18, 2012, 10:30:01 am
Pretty sure Battuta said that he and the devs played out just about every possible scenario for DE. Like actually set it up and FRED and watched what happened. Attacking the Imperiuse turned out to be the best option. IIRC it worked well enough that they had to guardian the Imp's beam turrets or make them invulnerable or something to ensure that the Wargods lose consistently.

I tried to tell 'em.


...Wargods can't kill the Carthage before getting destroyed themselves...

Nah, they could. It's just that...

Killing the Carthage doesn't do the UEF much good unless the Wargods get away without heavy losses. Remember that much of the mission's intended impact is political, both among the GTVA populace and its leadership. 'Steele ****s up and loses a storied destroyer' gets him sacked and stirs up already pretty virulent doubt. But a narrative where the veteran GTD Carthage goes down in take-no-prisoners battle against fanatical UEF hunter-killers, bloodying them badly in the process, doesn't achieve that.


Also,

It's not knowing suicide. In fact, in early versions of the mission, before the Imperieuse got her fighter screen and more armor on her forward beams, the Wargods would routinely shoot out her spinal emitters, get abeam, and torpedo her to death. Attacking the Imperieuse was their only chance at mission success.

This is the version of DE we play after the Vishnans take Laporte on her vision quest or whatever and then they go back in time to save the War in Heaven. :pimp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on September 18, 2012, 01:07:42 pm
It's not knowing suicide. In fact, in early versions of the mission, before the Imperieuse got her fighter screen and more armor on her forward beams, the Wargods would routinely shoot out her spinal emitters, get abeam, and torpedo her to death. Attacking the Imperieuse was their only chance at mission success.

This is the version of DE we play after the Vishnans take Laporte on her vision quest or whatever and then they go back in time to save the War in Heaven. :pimp:
Already done in "Serch for Bosh Valintine's day Special." :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on October 06, 2012, 01:40:05 pm
On a technical note... has anyone noticed their Support Ship has been flying like their operator is on speed or something?

[attachment removed and sold on the black market]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on October 06, 2012, 01:45:33 pm
The Aranyaka behaves really weirdly, yes.  Ridiculously high speed and moves in great big circles.

I think it's to compensate for the fact that during the bigger missions like Aristeia and Delenda Est, supply ships would often be left kilometers away from you because the battlespace moves around so much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 06, 2012, 01:49:01 pm
Laporte ship on station

(We should go back and add in SEXPs that allow like four support ships to be present at once. Love that ****)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on October 06, 2012, 02:28:07 pm
It's a path issue in the pof. Been going through and fixing them where they pop up, should be ok by the next update.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Master_of_the_blade on November 30, 2012, 10:42:42 pm
I was going through the moddb page and I came across
(http://media.moddb.com/cache/images/mods/1/16/15109/thumb_300x150/sunglare.png)
Now it doesn't look like this in my game. I've post processing and the latest shaders but mine looks like a bright white-yellow ball with sunspots.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on November 30, 2012, 11:27:51 pm
 Am I the only one who want's to see Simms die in WiH P2?
 Seriously, I'd love to see Laporte's sanity slip away as she becomes obsessed with vengeance.
 Come on! Those flashbacks to her childhood totally imply a grimdark only war future!

Master: I think it's just a photoshop for a wallpaper, I don't recall it looking like that either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Master_of_the_blade on December 01, 2012, 01:01:24 am
This looks a whole lot better. I wonder if FSO supports animated textures on skyboxes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 01, 2012, 02:02:53 am
Yes, that picture looks somewhat better than what we have ingame. Unfortunately, as has been said, it's just a photoshoped image a fan did.

As for animated skyboxes: They're possible, but infeasible from a performance standpoint.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on December 01, 2012, 08:23:46 am
Am I the only one who want's to see Simms die in WiH P2?

Yes, go awaaaaaaaaaaay. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on December 01, 2012, 12:58:34 pm
Eh I never particularly liked Simms either way.  She just seemed like a kinda odd/crazy person to me.

I'd be pretty crazy/odd if every damn person I got to know for quite some time outside of a few people died on me within the month, I'm just saying it doesn't produce a very likable character for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on December 02, 2012, 04:44:36 pm
Yes, that picture looks somewhat better than what we have ingame. Unfortunately, as has been said, it's just a photoshoped image a fan did.

As for animated skyboxes: They're possible, but infeasible from a performance standpoint.

Magic poffing could do the trick? For instance, what happens regarding the subspace tunnel?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 03, 2012, 01:53:49 am
The subspace tunnel consists of a rotating model with a secondary rotating texture overlaid on top. This technique (or rather, parts of it) can be used in skyboxes; you could for example do a ringed gas giant skybox by modelling the ring as a moving subobject.

However, I understood the original question to ask about whether it's possible to animate a background texture (that is, play an animation on the surface). This is a really really bad idea, given that the only way to do it with acceptable levels of quality would involve having quite a lot of animation frames, all at the same skybox-sized resolutions, all of which have to be loaded into memory and then streamed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on December 03, 2012, 01:39:23 pm
Someone should make a troll starfield.pof that very slowly rotates, so all the joystick players will think somethings frakked on their sticks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on December 03, 2012, 09:09:00 pm
are we talking about swirly suns like in mass effect?  cuz to be honest, i thought those were bad.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 04, 2012, 01:12:37 am
Swirly suns? Where was that featured in ME?

Also, about the TerSlashBlueAAA--what's with the name? It's not a slashing beam (IIRC), it doesn't fire from the TSB beam emitters, and it's a completely different beam (being entirely point-defense, as opposed to a heavy anti-ship armament).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 04, 2012, 01:15:12 am
Swirly suns? Where was that featured in ME?

Every single scene featuring TIM as a non-hologram.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on December 04, 2012, 01:17:11 am
I was digging through the F3 list, and any developer care to explain what the "Angel Flare" was supposed to be? I get the feeling it's supposed to be a capital defense weapon...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 04, 2012, 01:18:34 am
Yes it's a capship CM.

Also, about the TerSlashBlueAAA--what's with the name? It's not a slashing beam (IIRC), it doesn't fire from the TSB beam emitters, and it's a completely different beam (being entirely point-defense, as opposed to a heavy anti-ship armament).
It is a slashing beam. Try again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 04, 2012, 01:41:57 am
Swirly suns? Where was that featured in ME?

Every single scene featuring TIM as a non-hologram.

Oh, that. I thought it looked great, but it was jarringly bizarre/unrealistic. I kept wanting to ask him 'what the hell IS that thing behind you?'

Yes it's a capship CM.

Also, about the TerSlashBlueAAA--what's with the name? It's not a slashing beam (IIRC), it doesn't fire from the TSB beam emitters, and it's a completely different beam (being entirely point-defense, as opposed to a heavy anti-ship armament).
It is a slashing beam. Try again.

Ah, so it is. *smacks self in forehead* I don't know how I misread it before...

I wonder, will the TSB-AAA be replacing the AAAf entirely? At least on the next-gen TEI warships? What is the gist of the weapon's existence in the lore--is it an actual, distinct weapon, or some kind of different configuration of the AAAf, or just overloading the AAAf in a specific way, etc?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 04, 2012, 02:00:24 am
AFAIK, it was used as a Combat Evaluation prototype in the Carthage's battlegroup (the Leviathan and some Deimoses used it). It isn't actually any better than the AAAf, so I don't expect it to replace it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 04, 2012, 05:31:55 am
AFAIK, it was used as a Combat Evaluation prototype in the Carthage's battlegroup (the Leviathan and some Deimoses used it). It isn't actually any better than the AAAf, so I don't expect it to replace it.

Really? I thought the big weakness with the AAAf is that it fires at the same target three times, with a longer cooldown in between bursts. With warhead intercept, that means that it intercepts one warhead per burst + cooldown, whereas the TSB-AAA (supposedly) usually hits one warhead per shot, but has a much shorter cooldown and only fires once per 'burst'. Does it not live up to that in practice?

And come to think of it...the Leviathan is barely more durable than the Aeolus, and the Hyperion is roughly the same as the Leviathan--so what's the big deal about making a cruiser with the Aeolus' speed along with the Levi's armor?--the Aeolus already does that (referring to the Hyperion's tech description). If anything, the Aeolus has an advantage in durability due to its vastly smaller target profile--it's roughly half the size, with better turret coverage too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: borizz on December 04, 2012, 05:51:05 am
Oh, that. I thought it looked great, but it was jarringly bizarre/unrealistic. I kept wanting to ask him 'what the hell IS that thing behind you?'

I always thought the observation deck shots to the sun was some kind of radiation filter, so people could stare into that sun and not go blind. But I think there was a shot in ME3 that showed it from outside and it looked pretty much the same, so that doesn't work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 04, 2012, 06:09:30 am
borizz you are putting too much stock into table information. With armor classes and AI profiles alone ship performances can change drastically and that doesn't even take mission scripting into account. If a mission requires the Hyperion to be better than it's predecessors it will be, no matter what the tables say about hitpoints, speed or weapondamage.

As for the ME sun:
Maybe it was a sun close to going out or an ignited gas giant or something other than your "average" sun.
Either way, there were so many things wrong with ME2 and 3 that my complaints never reached as far as the background animation...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 04, 2012, 06:58:07 am
Maybe it was a sun close to going out or an ignited gas giant or something other than your "average" sun.
Either way, there were so many things wrong with ME2 and 3 that my complaints never reached as far as the background animation...

Problem is, it was actually *foreground* animation in several points, and it was a major focus point in several main-story cutscenes. It was also present in most of one of the main character's scenes, being one of the core elements of them visually.

It gets worse when the color of the star is completely different depending on your last-second choice in the suicide mission...yeah, not one of ME2's bigger problems, I know, but still....


----

Also, I'm not really referring to table data at all. The Aeolus, Hyperion, and Leviathan cruisers make several notable appearances in BP's campaigns, and if anything, the Leviathan makes the weakest showings in terms of durability.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 04, 2012, 07:28:41 am
Enough Mass Effect talk.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: borizz on December 04, 2012, 10:35:51 am
borizz you are putting too much stock into table information. With armor classes and AI profiles alone ship performances can change drastically and that doesn't even take mission scripting into account. If a mission requires the Hyperion to be better than it's predecessors it will be, no matter what the tables say about hitpoints, speed or weapondamage.

As for the ME sun:
Maybe it was a sun close to going out or an ignited gas giant or something other than your "average" sun.
Either way, there were so many things wrong with ME2 and 3 that my complaints never reached as far as the background animation...

I never said anything about table information.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 04, 2012, 12:32:42 pm
Oh sorry, got the lines confused. I meant SaltyWaffles and he already answered to it.

As for the answer, I don't think we have much to compare in WiH. Both Hyperion and Leviathan only showed up in one mission each and the situations were quite different.
The Hyperion got sniped out by fighters with dedicated anti-subsystem weapons before they got much contact with the Karunas, while the Levies got caught in a full fleet action.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 04, 2012, 08:20:09 pm
Oh sorry, got the lines confused. I meant SaltyWaffles and he already answered to it.

As for the answer, I don't think we have much to compare in WiH. Both Hyperion and Leviathan only showed up in one mission each and the situations were quite different.
The Hyperion got sniped out by fighters with dedicated anti-subsystem weapons before they got much contact with the Karunas, while the Levies got caught in a full fleet action.

The Hyperion was featured in quite a number of missions in AoA.

The Aeolus is featured in a number of missions in WiH; however, it is also featured even more in FS2--alongside the Leviathan. In Delenda Est, the Leviathan cruisers are nowhere near as significant or effectual as the Aeolus cruisers--IIRC, the main reason either of the Levis in that level are still in-mission around the time the Hanuman is obliterated is that they're largely ignored by the Wargods, who are concentrating on the Carthage and the rest of her screen (including the Aeolus's). As far as point-defense goes, the Aeolus still wins out in everything except warhead interception, which is probably where the Levis help--four PDB's, in this case TerSlashBlue-AAA's along with more blob turrets--and provide some support against warhead spam to the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 04, 2012, 09:53:08 pm
Oh sorry, got the lines confused. I meant SaltyWaffles and he already answered to it.

As for the answer, I don't think we have much to compare in WiH. Both Hyperion and Leviathan only showed up in one mission each and the situations were quite different.
The Hyperion got sniped out by fighters with dedicated anti-subsystem weapons before they got much contact with the Karunas, while the Levies got caught in a full fleet action.

The Hyperion was featured in quite a number of missions in AoA.

The Aeolus is featured in a number of missions in WiH; however, it is also featured even more in FS2--alongside the Leviathan. In Delenda Est, the Leviathan cruisers are nowhere near as significant or effectual as the Aeolus cruisers--IIRC, the main reason either of the Levis in that level are still in-mission around the time the Hanuman is obliterated is that they're largely ignored by the Wargods, who are concentrating on the Carthage and the rest of her screen (including the Aeolus's). As far as point-defense goes, the Aeolus still wins out in everything except warhead interception, which is probably where the Levis help--four PDB's, in this case TerSlashBlue-AAA's along with more blob turrets--and provide some support against warhead spam to the Carthage.


Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on December 04, 2012, 10:54:31 pm
I think the problem with them is its perfectly safe to ignore them and let them be anti-mattered into photons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on December 05, 2012, 12:02:15 am
Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

I died by the Systema's hand. A lot. Even the frigate engaging the Iolanthe got killed by the Systema (at least six times pre-Karuna fix, according to the events sheet) despite driving the two last Deimos corvettes out.

My advice? Just equip the Archer, go to third person mode, and shoot at whatever rear-flank beam is facing you.

I think the problem with them is its perfectly safe to ignore them and let them be anti-mattered into photons.

You're making me think the question "why couldn't we have Jackhammers for our gunships in that mission?" (yes, the Uriel can hold Jackhammers.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 05, 2012, 11:54:08 pm
Those Fusion Mortars are still weak as ****, but they do a lot more damage than they look like they should.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 06, 2012, 12:12:36 am

Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

It goes relatively fine, actually. As long as you stay out of PDB range, the only thing of concern about them is their fusion mortars, which are large and exposed--Archer them. After that, your allied warships will torpedo them to death.

And it's probably better to use data from post-Karuna patch, as pre-Karuna patch had issues like 'Katana dies, most of the damage done to it was from...the Katana'. The Systema might have been a bigger problem back them because it was simply closer to a given Karuna, which causes its self-damage to go through the roof (hence, death).

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nonegiven on December 06, 2012, 10:21:32 am
Just wanted to register to express my appreciation for one of the best experiences in my last 15 years of gaming- this mod features a depth of narrative, world building and internal consistency that positively dwarfs the vast majority of "triple A" titles, not to mention gameplay that is both exciting and complex, a very difficult feat indeed.

What I like most is the nuanced and sophisticated take on questions of philosophy and human nature regarding the ethics of war, the mindsets of the invader and the defender are brought into sharp focus and the contrasts between them make much of the human drama. Most impressively, many of these questions are explored via the gameplay itself, rather than simply communicated via the narrative- the free natured yet brittle, disparate yet resourceful UEF fleets struggling to merely disable the deadly beam spam of the relentless, co-ordinated GTVA warmachine, itself roiling with its own internal contradictions and a victim of its irresistible momentum.

Every time a GTVA ship jumps out after having its weapons destroyed despite the best efforts of the UEF to finish them off, you can sense the hopelessness and frustration of the defender, just as you can sense their shock and despair as the GTVA beams almost instantly carve apart their best. The inequality of war and its psychological impact are rarely communicated in western game development, which mainly seeks to glorify it or sanitise it, for reasons of gory gratification or thinly veiled propaganda justifying current and past conflicts, e.g all WW2 shooters, COD series, Homefront and any games featuring "us vs terrorists" plots. Neither is it dealt with well in Japanese game development, which tend to be very heavy handed in their approach, simply serving to reveal  the developers lack of life experience and understanding of historical conflicts.

The emotional hooks the player develops to individual ships and his War Gods' team mates are both subtly and organically embedded, they are a function of the desperate, system-wide conflict raging around the player and the knowledge that, despite his best efforts, his influence in these proceedings is limited, if nonetheless important. Every ally ship saved brings satisfying relief and the gratification that yes, in this small corner of the theatre, I made a difference (I cant count the number of times I replayed Aristeia to ensure that both Sanctus cruisers survived).

This is as far away from the cynical and overtly heavy handed "connection" the developers of Bioshock, (to take an example of a much lauded mainstream "mature" title) thrust upon the players in the form of the little sisters. Any feelings of protectiveness from the player or the moral dilemma  the creators were ham-handedly trying to impose fell flat instantly, despite being a central feature of the game. In contrast, neither the Dea Bricta nor the Auxerre had any relevance to the plot aside from the mission they were featured in and their survival was ultimately insignificant in the success of mission, yet despite that I want to save them. Everytime.

As an aside, Blue Planet really deserves to be played through using a top end pair of headphones, on a properly amplified pair of Sennheiser HD800 Delenda Est is truly awe-inspiring, the chaos of the battlefield is really well portrayed, with flak pounding into your ears, bombs exploding and laserfire effects swarming all around you in multiple layers. And when the swelling chorus of immediatemusic3 kicks in, it sends down chills down the spine like nothing else I've experienced in gaming.
If this part also featured voice-acting, my brain would inevitably shut down from the combination sensory and emotional overload :)

A cheaper pair of AKG K701s would also do this mission justice (yes I'm a bit of a headphone geek)
All BP players should experience it!

Thanks for the amazing work you guys; I eagerly await the next installment :)

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on December 06, 2012, 05:44:18 pm
Well that is quite the supportive feedback! I'm sure they'll appreciate it specially when put so eloquently. Also, welcome to HLPBB!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 06, 2012, 06:01:27 pm
Thanks so much, that was a fantastic and fulfilling response.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on December 07, 2012, 07:41:01 am
-snip-

^This. I applaud you sir :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 09, 2012, 11:56:20 pm

Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

It goes relatively fine, actually. As long as you stay out of PDB range, the only thing of concern about them is their fusion mortars, which are large and exposed--Archer them. After that, your allied warships will torpedo them to death.

And it's probably better to use data from post-Karuna patch, as pre-Karuna patch had issues like 'Katana dies, most of the damage done to it was from...the Katana'. The Systema might have been a bigger problem back them because it was simply closer to a given Karuna, which causes its self-damage to go through the roof (hence, death).



Wait, did you actually try this? Because I don't believe you did. I am NOT saying they could survive the full fury of three Karunas at all, only that a single Uriel needs to go to considerable effort in order to really put a dent in one. Take one of those out and still win the mission and you've only partially negated my point. Keep in mind their AAA beams are weaker too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 10, 2012, 02:14:29 pm

Freakin try taking those Levis out, and tell me how that goes for you. Really.

From what I remember, they're tough as nails, and their engine and AAA beams are uparmored

It goes relatively fine, actually. As long as you stay out of PDB range, the only thing of concern about them is their fusion mortars, which are large and exposed--Archer them. After that, your allied warships will torpedo them to death.

And it's probably better to use data from post-Karuna patch, as pre-Karuna patch had issues like 'Katana dies, most of the damage done to it was from...the Katana'. The Systema might have been a bigger problem back them because it was simply closer to a given Karuna, which causes its self-damage to go through the roof (hence, death).



Wait, did you actually try this? Because I don't believe you did. I am NOT saying they could survive the full fury of three Karunas at all, only that a single Uriel needs to go to considerable effort in order to really put a dent in one. Take one of those out and still win the mission and you've only partially negated my point. Keep in mind their AAA beams are weaker too.

Yes, I actually did try it. Several times. With the Archer alone, I was doing more than putting a dent into it--however, I was giving it most of my attention as a result. In general, the Aeolus cruisers on that mission are much easier to disarm, but far deadlier to be engaged with (assuming you aren't staying out of range, using the Archer). Even if the Aeolus and Leviathan cruisers in that mission are a bit different in terms of durability, it's hardly the kind of difference that would be one of the distinguishing qualities of the Hyperion class. Really, the Hyperion's advances in durability over the Aeolus come from its far greater warhead intercept capability and the longer range of its main point defenses--in the form of its STerPulses over the flaks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 12, 2012, 10:06:31 am
Thread surgery performed. Carry on!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 13, 2012, 11:37:29 am
Okay, quick question:

Given the dedication to realism in many aspects in BP/WiH, one scene has me rather curious: the proximity of the Indus to the Sun in Sunglare. This isn't exactly an esoteric nitpick, as it was the first thought I had when I first saw that scene. I was wondering how a Karuna--let alone one as badly damaged as the Indus--was able to hang out so close to the Sun without being melted away in short order. Granted, it's still a matter of hours before the crew dies from radiation, but I'm thinking more along the lines of 'why isn't it a melting hunk in *minutes*?'

I know FS ships are rather jarringly durable for the time period (even a cruiser can survive a pair of massive antimatter torpedoes, albeit barely), but that close to the Sun...it's not just the shear amount of energy hitting the ship at a constant rate--it's constant, extremely intense heat exposure to a ship with many gaping holes in its main armor and other systems (especially some of its engines, which sort of leaves the reactors/engineering behind that wide open, so to speak). With the entire front section of the ship particularly exposed and the fighterbay wrecked, how is the Indus capable of lasting as long (and as well) as it did?

About its distress call: as I'm no physics expert (which also applies to the thing above), how impressive is it that the Masyaf/Fedayeen picked up the Indus's distress call *at all*, and could one reasonably expect it for them to have picked it up sooner? What are the various factors involved for helping and hurting the Indus's attempts to reach anyone for help in that situation (with any kind of communications, deployable beacons, subspace capable craft or escape pods, etc)?

((Also, side question: when the Masyaf guy on comms says "We are not Fleet. We are Fedayeen", does he mean that the entire/majority of the crew are Fedayeen, or the command crew, or just himself, or the entire special assignment fleet is Fedayeen, or what?))

Sorry for the question dump--I'm just very curious. And don't get me wrong--visually speaking, Sunglare is just plain amazing and highly memorable, but the music and camera angles round out the scene beautifully.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 13, 2012, 11:44:44 am
For the "how did they find em" part, I wouldn't be surprised if the Fedayeen just followed Laporte's Nagari trail. Or something.

Also, I think I heard that the Masyaf may have been assigned to guard the UEF antimatter farms, which are in close proximity to the Sun too. Maybe the Indus ended up close enough for the Masyaf to detect the distress call. Or something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 13, 2012, 11:50:18 am
Quote
With the entire front section of the ship particularly exposed and the fighterbay wrecked, how is the Indus capable of lasting as long (and as well) as it did?

Because things. Also, thermal roll. Also also, dealing with one continuous source of radiation is a different environment than combat. Different damage-mitigation strategies apply (And it can be assumed that all that "shield generators and nanorepair stuff embedded into the hull" stuff comes into play).

To quote an old saying, "How does the Heisenberg Compensator work?" "Very well, thank you."

Quote
how impressive is it that the Masyaf/Fedayeen picked up the Indus's distress call *at all*, and could one reasonably expect it for them to have picked it up sooner?

Very, and no.

Quote
((Also, side question: when the Masyaf guy on comms says "We are not Fleet. We are Fedayeen", does he mean that the entire/majority of the crew are Fedayeen, or the command crew, or just himself, or the entire special assignment fleet is Fedayeen, or what?))

Yes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on December 13, 2012, 12:00:15 pm
For the "how did they find em" part, I wouldn't be surprised if the Fedayeen just followed Laporte's Nagari trail. Or something.
...that's actually rather genius. I hadn't thought of that. Of course, couldn't that mean that the GalTevs can do the same?

Quote
Also, I think I heard that the Masyaf may have been assigned to guard the UEF antimatter farms, which are in close proximity to the Sun too. Maybe the Indus ended up close enough for the Masyaf to detect the distress call. Or something.
Quite possible, though I have no idea how close Mercury would be to the Sun in that situation, given just visuals alone. But yeah, I always figured that the Masyaf (as well as some other ships) were assigned to patrol/guard the various critical assets near deep solar orbit.

---

The E: good point with regards to the damage control and active repair systems; the UEF frigates are rather well-known for their ability to quickly recover from most damage if given enough time after/in-between fights.

And thanks for the answers about the Masyaf's (et al?) feat with regards to finding the Indus. If anyone knows specifics about the physics challenges involved in such a feat, I'd love to hear about them. Anything being that close to the Sun is practically awesome by default.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on December 13, 2012, 05:54:25 pm
Quite possible, though I have no idea how close Mercury would be to the Sun in that situation, given just visuals alone. But yeah, I always figured that the Masyaf (as well as some other ships) were assigned to patrol/guard the various critical assets near deep solar orbit.
AFAIK, the antimatter farms aren't at Mercury, they are in close solar orbit in order to get the best solar energy output for antimatter generation. It's supposed to be close enough that any attempt from the Tevs to attack it without extremely precise navigation data (which are probably all the harder to get when you get so close to the sun's gravitational influence) would result in their ships to get seriously melted before they could deal any kind of serious damage.

(and obviously, the Tevs don't want to assault it anyway because getting those farms intact is one of the main reasons they wanted Sol in the first place, but that's a different story)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 24, 2012, 05:42:35 am
It shouldn't be too hard to work out the Indus' distance from the sun from one's fov settings and a little trig. However, that scene is already inaccurate: you can't be in a "decaying orbit" unless you're actually inside the atmosphere of the thing you're orbiting, and the Indus would be slag long before getting that close.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 24, 2012, 07:48:22 am
It shouldn't be too hard to work out the Indus' distance from the sun from one's fov settings and a little trig. However, that scene is already inaccurate: you can't be in a "decaying orbit" unless you're actually inside the atmosphere of the thing you're orbiting, and the Indus would be slag long before getting that close.

This is patently wrong. You are in a decaying orbit as soon as your angular velocity is below the velocity required to counteract the gravity (or if your angular velocity is higher, see for example the Moon). In both cases, you're changing altitude relative to the thing you're orbiting.

In the Indus' case, they came out of subspace with damaged engines and probably at a suboptimal vector to get into a stable orbit around the sun; they're trying to generate angular velocity, but the engines are not capable of doing more than prolonging the inevitable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 24, 2012, 08:06:24 am
Decaying and stable have nothing to do with altitude, they refer to the long-term behaviour of a system. You seem to be confusing "circular" and "stable".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on December 24, 2012, 08:18:32 am
Orbit is when your forward velocity is balanced with the drop caused by gravity.  if your forward velocity is below this rate of altitude loss then you will spiral into the gravity generating object.  what you are thinking of is that when in a atmosphere you have to continually generate forward velocity to counteract the loss of velocity cause by friction
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 24, 2012, 08:33:48 am
Decaying and stable have nothing to do with altitude, they refer to the long-term behaviour of a system. You seem to be confusing "circular" and "stable".

Actually, no.

The Indus' orbit is shaped so that its Apoapsis is too close to the sun for Indus to survive. Indus' engines are not capable of generating enough thrust to alter that orbit in any meaningful way. I do realize that "decaying orbit" may be the wrong term for this, but you know what? I don't care. It's a simple sentence that gets the point across without having to explain terms like Apoapsis. So, after careful examination of your nitpicks, I have determined that they are just that.

So even if Indus' orbit was stable in some way, it simply does not matter. Just as it doesn't matter for a satellite if its orbit is stable but has an apoapsis somewhere within the thing that it is orbiting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 24, 2012, 08:48:19 am
Ah, headdie. Nothing like someone helpfully explaining something they clearly don't understand.

E, regardless of understandability it's still an abuse of notation, which is not what you were saying earlier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 24, 2012, 08:55:15 am
Ah, headdie. Nothing like someone helpfully explaining something they clearly don't understand.

E, regardless of understandability it's still an abuse of notation, which is not what you were saying earlier.

Oh, right, I probably should have included a bit about me reading up a bit and realizing that your nitpick was true. Sorry.

Nevertheless, a nitpick it is. And "abuse of notation"? Really? What would you have written instead?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 24, 2012, 09:04:09 am
I think "collision course" would convey the same meaning without being outright inaccurate. It's not important, I onl mentioned it because discussion already went that way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 24, 2012, 09:23:48 am
Phantom: It already gets the point across.  A change isn't needed because, simply put, no one cares.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 24, 2012, 09:43:08 am
Ah, headdie. Nothing like someone helpfully explaining something they clearly don't understand.

E, regardless of understandability it's still an abuse of notation, which is not what you were saying earlier.

A decay is when an orbit gets smaller, simple as. Doesn't matter if the force doing it is atmospheric friction, particles smacking the orbiter, a retrograde burn or whatever, if the orbit is becoming smaller then it is in decay. Technically you are right in that the Indus' orbit wasn't getting any smaller at the point in which we see her (since she can't possibly be in the atmosphere), but her Periapsis was at a point where the Indus would presumably encounter the atmosphere at some point and therefore would be subject to friction which would cause her orbit to become smaller (which is just semantics at this point since the ship would be long gone). If I remember right the exact quote was "we are in a decaying orbit" or something like that, which in the context of being on a ship whose orbit is not currently getting smaller, but will eventually, sort of makes sense.

I believe I've worded that right, if not then I hope you catch my meaning. "Collision course" just doesn't have the same dramatic effect unfortunately so I think you can forgive the very slight inaccuracy here.

Headdie's explanation was perfectly fine btw.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 24, 2012, 09:52:03 am
Headdie was completely wrong: you can't spiral in towards anything without an external force.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 24, 2012, 10:08:27 am
I like decaying orbit because it succinctly conveys that they're ****ed. Nothing about FreeSpace orbital mechanics ever makes any sense, it's important to remain consistent on that point!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 24, 2012, 10:10:33 am
Their orbit is decaying because the free space drag that makes ships slow down when they're disabled is constantly killing their velocity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 24, 2012, 10:11:54 am
Replace the word "spiral" with "be pulled towards" and he's essentially right. Talk about nitpicking...

Decaying and stable have nothing to do with altitude, they refer to the long-term behaviour of a system. You seem to be confusing "circular" and "stable".

Something else I've realised:- I'm not actually sure if decay is used to refer to the orbit becoming smaller at one specific moment in time, or over a specified period of time as you suggested. From the moment the Indus exits subspace to the moment where she encounters the Sun's atmosphere, she would be in an orbit that would *eventually* become smaller. If we take your meaning of decay (long-term behaviour of a system) to be true, then saying the Indus is in a decaying orbit is actually a completely accurate description.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 24, 2012, 10:13:05 am
SPACE FRICTION
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 24, 2012, 10:20:35 am
Their orbit is decaying because the free space drag that makes ships slow down when they're disabled is constantly killing their velocity.

Totally, I mean it's like they've never heard of hitting Alt-G before, noobs...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 24, 2012, 10:33:10 am
science friction
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on December 24, 2012, 10:35:05 am
science friction
your getting it :D

as a side though what is the particle density between the sun and Mercury's orbit?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 24, 2012, 10:50:13 am
If I have the choice between "decaying orbit", "we are getting closer and closer to the sun" and some word I never heard before, I pick decaying orbit.

It might not be a 100% accurate, but it's easy to understand what is meant. And if that's not enough for you, think of the poor guy who said it.
He just fled a killingfield that saw his entire battlegroup torn to pieces. As he said, he's the last conscious member of the bridge crew, probably a bit woozy too from all the radiation and at the very least close to panicking.
If you were in his situation, would you go to find a dictionary to find out what the perfect term for that screwup up position you are in is, before setting of the emergency call? Would you spend even half a second thinking about it, as long as any potential listener get's the general meaning?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 24, 2012, 11:05:20 am
That explanation doesn't extend to the cutscenes though; you'd have to grasp at straws to come up with a diegetic explanation for them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on December 24, 2012, 01:52:32 pm
I just assumed that it meant they were colliding with the far upper atmosphere of the sun.  Depending on how much stuff they were hitting this could mess them up fairly rapidly.  Before anyone else says the Indus would be hosed if it contacted the atmosphere of the sun, the SURFACE of the sun isn't physically that hot (5,778 Kelvin (5505 °C) by google's numbers). I sincerely doubt the atmospheric particles of the sun are hotter than its surface.  wait never mind

Whats going to doom them to doomy doom is the amount of electromagnetic radiation as they get closer, again if I had to hazard a guess.  The atmosphere is likely to do jack and [expletive redacted] beyond slowing them down.  Considering the fact that (as put elsewhere) they have nuke-soaking armor I think they could handle the actual heat from good ol' Sol's atmosphere for a while, as well as the radiation up to a point. derp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun#Atmosphere)

Not deleting this because that helps me learn to actually check my facts first.  With that said, the suns 'atmosphere' is weird if you read the linked wikipedia article.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 25, 2012, 05:51:32 am
The Indus was in an elliptical orbit that would have brought it to an altitude where it could not survive.  For convenience's sake, we'll call that a decaying orbit, because it gets the point across perfectly well.

Happy?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on December 25, 2012, 10:55:29 am
Many explanations for a decaying orbit, one would be that it's an elliptic orbit that intersects with the photosphere, another would be that the Indus may be venting something in the retrograde direction, causing it to end on a downward spiraling orbit... the science of it is mostly irrelevant for the storytelling perspective.

The surface of the sun is plenty hot enough. The temperatures of Sun's visible surface (photosphere) are about the same as you get from the tungsten wire in incandescent bulbs. Incandescent bulbs have a really small radiative area, yet you can clearly feel the heat of the small radiating piece of wire. Now imagine a square metre surface of glowing hot tungsten, and you being seated about 0.5 metres away from it (in that situation, the tungsten plate has apparent diameter of 90 degrees, which is close enough to what Indus experienced (depending on exact orbital altitude, but close enough for an approximation).

The radiation flux is quite overwhelming; a black body with surface temperature T has surface flux of

F = σ T4 , which gives out Watts per square metre when σ = 5.67 x 10-8 W/m2K4  (Stefan-Boltzmann constant).

When temperature is 5800 Kelvins, you get a radiation flux of 64.169×106 watts per square meter.

Therefore a metre by metre plate of tungsten heated to 5800 Kelvins would radiate at the power of 64 Megawatts, which you wouldn't exactly want to sit right next to.

As far as black body temperature balance goes, it would be rather trivial exercise to calculate the terminal temperature of Indus at different distances from the Sun. After that it would just be a matter of looking at what sort of temperatures the environmental controls can deal with - or, what kind of thermal energy output the shadow-side radiators can establish at maximum coolant flow.

However since none of this is exactly critical information, we never really calculated any actual values, settling for a simple cover-all definition of the situation: The Indus is screwed. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: newman on December 25, 2012, 11:55:03 am
However, that scene is already inaccurate: you can't be in a "decaying orbit" unless you're actually inside the atmosphere of the thing you're orbiting, and the Indus would be slag long before getting that close.

Yes you can. I'm about to niptick, but you're not exactly in a position to complain about that :P

A ship of Indus's size and complex hull configuration might be susceptible to tidal forces, and it's orbit might actually gradually change over time as a result. If it's in a retrograde elliptical orbit I do believe it likely it would gradually transfer tiny amounts of angular velocity to the Sun. How many orbits it would actually take for the orbit to decay completely into collision isn't something I find particularly relevant in this case (given the differences between Indus's and Sun's mass, I'd estimate it would take extreme amounts of time before the effect was even noticeable, and is by and large negligible in any sort of realistic time frame), but if you want to nitpick about right or wrong, "decaying orbit" might actually be a perfectly accurate term to describe Indus's situation, even if it would take a 100,000 years for the ship to actually crash into the sun. Like I said, irrelevant, as is the entire argument - my point is there are forces other than friction capable of causing orbital decay. The only thing the player needs to take away from that scene is "Indus is toast". And technically, if it'll crash in some 100,000 years it is in a decaying orbit :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on December 26, 2012, 02:19:32 pm
However, that scene is already inaccurate: you can't be in a "decaying orbit" unless you're actually inside the atmosphere of the thing you're orbiting, and the Indus would be slag long before getting that close.

Yes you can. I'm about to niptick, but you're not exactly in a position to complain about that :P

A ship of Indus's size and complex hull configuration might be susceptible to tidal forces, and it's orbit might actually gradually change over time as a result. If it's in a retrograde elliptical orbit I do believe it likely it would gradually transfer tiny amounts of angular velocity to the Sun. How many orbits it would actually take for the orbit to decay completely into collision isn't something I find particularly relevant in this case (given the differences between Indus's and Sun's mass, I'd estimate it would take extreme amounts of time before the effect was even noticeable, and is by and large negligible in any sort of realistic time frame), but if you want to nitpick about right or wrong, "decaying orbit" might actually be a perfectly accurate term to describe Indus's situation, even if it would take a 100,000 years for the ship to actually crash into the sun. Like I said, irrelevant, as is the entire argument - my point is there are forces other than friction capable of causing orbital decay. The only thing the player needs to take away from that scene is "Indus is toast". And technically, if it'll crash in some 100,000 years it is in a decaying orbit :P

I'm just spitballing now, but assuming the Indus exited subspace with negligible velocity of any kind, wouldn't the Sun's rotation put her into a prograde, elliptical orbit (looking sort of like an arc coming out of the Sun)? The only way it could be counter to the Sun's rotation would be if the Indus exited subspace in that direction (which would have to be a lot of speed right?).

Irregardless of whatever it is that makes the Indus' orbit grow smaller (tidal deceleration, atmospheric friction) her orbit *will* get smaller at some point therefore "decaying orbit" is an accurate description imho.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on December 26, 2012, 02:46:50 pm
Nope, the rotation of the central body typically has negligible effects on its surroundings (on a short time scale).

Technically you're right, assuming the exit-point is stationary in ecliptical coordinates the Indus would be put on an orbit around the Sun depending on its emergence vector. The Sun's rotational period at equator is 24.47 days, so most objects in the Solar system orbit the Sun much slower than the Sun itself rotates. However, prograde or retrograde orbits in this case has little meaning since Sun's surface is fluid rather than a solid reference point.

Actually, you can get absurd effects when you have a rotating supermassive black hole, because all rotating objects twist the space-time around them to some extent, but with normal celestial objects and normal astronomical distances, these effects typically don't appear.

And yeah, tidal forces can cause all sorts of complex effects. If we consider the Earth-Moon pair, one object (Moon) is tidally locked (which would probably not be the case with Indus) on prograde orbit. In this case, the tidal forces do work to slow down Earth's rotation, so Earth's rotational energy and angular momentum are decreased.

However, both the mechanical energy and angular momentum of the Earth-Moon system conserve; the conservation of angular momentum actually means that while the Earth's angular momentum decreases, the Moon's angular momentum increases, which means the Moon is being pushed to higher orbit. As far as energy is concerned, most of the reduced rotational energy is converted to heat, but about 1/30th of it is converted to the Moon's potential energy as it slowly climbs to higher orbit.

Tidal forces on the Indus would probably not be observable in the time scale of Sunglare; the actual problem they are having must be something more acute.

Personally I would put a wager on two possible (and one so-so) causes:

1. Indus is simple descending too low on elliptical orbit
2. Indus is venting something to retrograde direction, causing their orbit to decay.
3. Indus' magic antigravity systems are damaged and thus it has become subject to Newton's laws of motion as well as the universal gravitational law, unlike in all other appearances.

We've seen stations hold stationary altitude at orbits that are clearly not geostationary... the ships are firing their thrusters all the time yet experience no constant acceleration... a "decaying orbit" in this environment can mean whatever is required to make the situation as dire as possible. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 26, 2012, 03:11:26 pm
can i just interject that irregardless is a horrible word and you should be ashamed for using it
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on December 27, 2012, 04:18:33 am
IMHO the "decaying orbit" jargon thrown at you just means that the vessel is falling (the elipse crosses the surface at some point in the future - and in the past if you are so inclined to be precise). To prevent falling at that altitude the Indus should be orbiting at really high speed. Herra's right.

Or it could mean that it is crossing the corona's particles, which are slowing down the vessel.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: perihelion on December 30, 2012, 07:50:06 pm
Or it could mean that it is crossing the corona's particles, which are slowing down the vessel.
This would be my vote.  The solar atmosphere (aka corona) is huge.  It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that the Indus was experiencing coronal drag.  Not to mention what direct interaction with the solar magnetic field would do.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 30, 2012, 07:56:30 pm
It's a decaying orbit because the hull is decaying!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on December 31, 2012, 09:21:43 am
Yeah, I think "decaying" is a good choice of word from a literary perspective too. It just makes the whole situation sound bad. The ship is decaying, the situation is decaying, the UEF is decaying.
Spoiler:
Simms is decaying. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 02, 2013, 10:21:13 am
However, that scene is already inaccurate: you can't be in a "decaying orbit" unless you're actually inside the atmosphere of the thing you're orbiting, and the Indus would be slag long before getting that close.

Yes you can. I'm about to niptick, but you're not exactly in a position to complain about that :P


The Suns atmosphere (Heliosphere in particular) extends past pluto. :yes:

:warp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on January 02, 2013, 10:24:52 am
Can we get a "Conversations from Act 3" or would that be too spoilery at this point? I want hype like the WiH R1 hype!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 02, 2013, 10:40:37 am
The machinery is in motion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 01:55:25 am
Act 3 discussion goes here! Conversations from Tenebra is here! (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83302.0)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on January 07, 2013, 03:53:38 am
Downloading the new release now :lol:
Just wanted to say thank you guys for this incredible gift
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 07, 2013, 05:39:04 am
I love you guys.

I said it on IRC, but I'll say it again: That intro is godly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 07, 2013, 06:34:11 am
Will donate children for that awesome remix of Aney Aney that you have as the new campaigns menu music.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on January 07, 2013, 06:41:14 am
opening the vp files not working for you?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 07, 2013, 06:44:57 am
Wait....

Act 3's released? :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 07, 2013, 06:45:22 am
Also, Battuta - Kovacs, Vidaura and Falconer? The nods to Richard Morgan just got a bit more overt, methinks :P


And, I could open the VPs, but I am fundamentally lazy and they might have a higher quality version hanging around before compression etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: headdie on January 07, 2013, 06:55:30 am
fair enough.

Dekker
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70745.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 07, 2013, 06:59:37 am
The one in the VPs is listenable-quality, but I can render a high-quality version once I'm back home from overseas.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 07, 2013, 07:07:51 am
Cheers Darius, that'd be great.

Loving the soundtrack work so far.

And.. first mission entrenches my support for the Tevs, that's all I'm saying.

Yep, still leaning Tev.

Also like how Fedayeen are basically Envoys on a mystical post-human/sub-human binge. And is the CASSANDRA music a heavy remix of some of the Freespace 1 music? The basic beat outside of the vocals seems very much like it.

"Press Fire to Rock Out." Don't mind if I do!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 07, 2013, 08:01:21 am
Congratulations on the release of Act 3!

however, before I can begin downloading, I have a query. In the Act 3 release the thread, it is specified:

Quote
As of January 7, 2013, you MUST update your Age of Aquarius install, no matter how recent - even if you downloaded the recent New Year's update.

And since I can't afford to download neither the BPCI or the AoA installer again; which files from AoA do I have to re-download from the AoA release thread? The_E's latest post in the AoA thread indicates that only a "core" and "visuals1" package re-download is necessary. But, that post was made on the 4th of Jan...So, I'm kinda confused  :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 07, 2013, 09:05:04 am
Noooo. Why're you doing this to me, releasing it at the beginning of the week? Now I have to wait at least three full days until I can play it while everyone else enjoys it already. :( :hopping:

Guess I'll have to cut a few university classes there... :drevil:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 07, 2013, 09:15:12 am
Noooo. Why're you doing this to me, releasing it at the beginning of the week? Now I have to wait at least three full days until I can play it while everyone else enjoys it already. :( :hopping:

Guess I'll have to cut a few university classes there... :drevil:

you and me both pal, you and me both  :drevil:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 09:20:58 am
Congratulations on the release of Act 3!

however, before I can begin downloading, I have a query. In the Act 3 release the thread, it is specified:

Quote
As of January 7, 2013, you MUST update your Age of Aquarius install, no matter how recent - even if you downloaded the recent New Year's update.

And since I can't afford to download neither the BPCI or the AoA installer again; which files from AoA do I have to re-download from the AoA release thread? The_E's latest post in the AoA thread indicates that only a "core" and "visuals1" package re-download is necessary. But, that post was made on the 4th of Jan...So, I'm kinda confused  :confused:

You will need to update AoA core, visual1, and audio1 as far as I recall.

links:
http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/bp-core.7z
http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/bp-visual1.7z
http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/bp-audio1.7z
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 07, 2013, 09:28:43 am
No, you need to update EVERYTHING.

Crybertrance: I am sorry for the confusion, but I forgot to add an update notice to the thread (Although the fact that the last post there was a year old should have been a clue).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Suongadon on January 07, 2013, 09:41:22 am
Wooooooooooooooo! Fabulous start to the week.

20 minutes until I can ditch this 'work' bull**** and go home and smash-smash some Tevs. :D


Noooo. Why're you doing this to me, releasing it at the beginning of the week? Now I have to wait at least three full days until I can play it while everyone else enjoys it already. :( :hopping:

Guess I'll have to cut a few university classes there... :drevil:

Just tell your professors you are sick Blue Planet is more important. They will understand if they are awesome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 07, 2013, 10:14:19 am
No, you need to update EVERYTHING.

Crybertrance: I am sorry for the confusion, but I forgot to add an update notice to the thread (Although the fact that the last post there was a year old should have been a clue).

Whoa...didn't notice the 2011 on that post (I just assumed that you'all updated the AoA release thread for the New Years Update)... :banghead:

Anyway, its is gonna be a looooong wait for Tenebra then  :( :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 07, 2013, 10:19:46 am
Sooooooo, I can check the wiki for the Gaian Effort Cruiser and all the other stuff?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 07, 2013, 10:40:55 am
Feel free to make the first edits!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 07, 2013, 10:55:44 am
A mod well done :)
But here we go again:


[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 07, 2013, 11:15:14 am
WELL.

That was ****ing awesome. Balls hard at time, but ****ing awesome. I... wow.

Gimme Act 4/5 already D:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 07, 2013, 11:16:30 am
Sooooooo, I can check the wiki for the Gaian Effort Cruiser and all the other stuff?
You mean this (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/GEC_Ancamna) ? Been there for months...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 07, 2013, 11:42:38 am
Oh pshaw....... you can't fault me for missing it  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on January 07, 2013, 12:55:56 pm
Working my way through the new release slowly. Hard as **** in some missions, and somewhat overly talky for my tastes, but as usual it's a technical tour de force. Quality all the way through so far. Always glad to see my stuff getting used too. :D (Although why on earth did that particular ani get chosen as the MacDuff head? I never even finished it because it was looking pretty doggo - I don't even remember releasing it).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 12:58:11 pm
I don't even think it's opinion that this mod is overly talky, it's basically gospel truth. You can skip all the dreamscape stuff if you want though!

Is anyone having issues with any of the installers?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 07, 2013, 01:10:04 pm
And is the CASSANDRA music a heavy remix of some of the Freespace 1 music? The basic beat outside of the vocals seems very much like it.

"Press Fire to Rock Out." Don't mind if I do!

Yep, there's some Darkside in there. Good ears!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 07, 2013, 01:16:12 pm
And to think I've got a project deadline in friday. Life is cruel. Cruel.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 01:20:00 pm
WELL.

That was ****ing awesome. Balls hard at time, but ****ing awesome. I... wow.

Gimme Act 4/5 already D:

Since I'm away from my BP computer, (MEGA SPOILER QUESTION)
Spoiler:
were you able to properly connect to the nodes in the final mission? You should've gotten fairly lengthy in-engine cutscenes when you did.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 07, 2013, 02:27:18 pm
WELL.

That was ****ing awesome. Balls hard at time, but ****ing awesome. I... wow.

Gimme Act 4/5 already D:

Since I'm away from my BP computer, (MEGA SPOILER QUESTION)
Spoiler:
were you able to properly connect to the nodes in the final mission? You should've gotten fairly lengthy in-engine cutscenes when you did.

MORE SPOILERS THAN YOU CAN SHAKE A STICK AT, DO NOT READ UNTIL COMPLETING ACT 3!!!

Spoiler:
The four nodes discussing the Shivans and their nature, before Bei interrupts you and Ken? Yeah, I did, and they were fantastic. I notice that it gels pretty well with theories about them that were tossed around in this very topic some time in our discussion after Act 1 and 2. Ken being Aken and the other NTF captives was also vindicating.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 02:33:54 pm
don't read that post!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 07, 2013, 02:52:15 pm
Yeah, seriously guys, that post is spoiler tagged for a reason!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 07, 2013, 04:09:31 pm
gah - only played the 1st mission & I need more time to finish the campaign so I can read the spoilers! :p

One question has occurred to me though, and I guess I should spoiler it just in case...

Spoiler:
The Greek Cassandra was cursed so that no one would believe her visions of the future.  This CASSANDRA seems to be believed pretty well by the Feedayeen... so does that mean there's not a link between the two, or perhaps CASSANDRA is going to prove somewhat unreliable in future?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on January 07, 2013, 05:39:33 pm
I just finished the new WiH release. I have only three words:

Holy ******* ****.

I'm still trying to process all the elements of the story, so I should keep my mouth shut until I have, but I've gotta say that the mission design was just...un-freaking-believeable. I sometimes wonder if any of the original FS2 dev team looks at what's been done with the engine and marvels at it, because I sure as hell do.

Spoiler:
Watching the Vikrant, Toreador, and some Custos gunboats vaporize the Carthage and friends was immensely satisfying. Steele, you son of a whore, you're next.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 07, 2013, 05:53:23 pm
Damn it you guys, I had to stop playing the first mission because my bloody hands were shaking and I kept screwing everything up! :p

I have to say I like what I have seen so far, the Sidhe is awesome. Awesome Intro. Awe, Awe, Awe. Great work.

Also, totally called it:
Spoiler:
LAPORTE/SAMUEL DUEL, No Shivans, No Vishnans, No Feds or Tevs, Final Destination.
Spoiler:
I predict a subversion of the Cassandra myth, the predictions will become more and more erratic as more calculations need to be made.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nemesis6 on January 07, 2013, 06:33:59 pm
All the exe files of the new release hosted on fsmods.net seem to be corrupted... I get the following message: "The setup files are corrupted. Please obtain a new copy of the program."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Useful Dave on January 07, 2013, 07:18:34 pm
WELL.

That was ****ing awesome. Balls hard at time, but ****ing awesome. I... wow.

Gimme Act 4/5 already D:

Pretty much in agreement here, I've got to say that the writing felt especially Banks-esque at times, which for me at least was bloody brilliant. The extra 'nexus' addition made for an interesting path with the structuring too, as it lets the player choose just how much exposition they want to receive without having to risk skipping vital mission/setting info in the briefing sections.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 07, 2013, 07:25:22 pm
I just downloaded BP complete, and... it won't launch. I've attached a debug log.

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 07, 2013, 07:33:44 pm
I think something's wrong with your mod setup:

Code: [Select]
  -mod blueplanetcomplete\blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612

From the next section of the log, nothing is being found in C:\Games\GOG.com\Freespace 2\blueplanet which means that FSO can't find any of the BP:AoA files. Maybe the mod line above should read:

Code: [Select]
  -mod blueplanetcomplete\blueplanet2,blueplanetcomplete\blueplanet,mediavps_3612

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 07, 2013, 07:37:37 pm
Strange. I never messed with that. I'll try it and see if it works.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 07, 2013, 07:39:08 pm
By the way, how in the heck do I change that?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 07:40:45 pm
knossosfs2, it looks like you pointed the installer at FreeSpace2/blueplanetcomplete. Just point it at FreeSpace2. That's what caused your problem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 07:41:44 pm
All the exe files of the new release hosted on fsmods.net seem to be corrupted... I get the following message: "The setup files are corrupted. Please obtain a new copy of the program."

Make sure your AVG isn't freaking out about them. That's what has caused this issue for a few other people.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 07, 2013, 07:42:48 pm
It's usually set by the launcher & the mod.ini files.  Before you change anything, perhaps it'd be best to post a copy of these files:

blueplanetcomplete\blueplanet2\mod.ini
blueplanet\mod.ini (if it exists)
blueplanetcomplete\blueplanet\mod.ini (if it exists)

EDIT: scratch this and listen to Battuta instead (since he's on the BP team :D)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 07, 2013, 07:44:51 pm
Yeah I just saw that niffiwan, but thanks anyway. Battuta, you just saved the day! I might be back for more help because I know that I'm going to have performance issues...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leeko on January 07, 2013, 07:59:40 pm
Sorry to interrupt the bug-related talk. This started as a stream of consciousness and turned into a full-on review of the whole damn thing so I spoilered the meat of it. Here goes!

Spoiler:
I didn't think the existing release of WiH could be topped. I cheered with joy as my hopes were raised and raised, and then slouched with my jaw agape when they were brutally stomped all over. I was immersed in a setting and its conflict, and I genuinely cared about the characters portrayed within. I even compared it to the emotional weight of Half-Life 2's second episode. But, WOW. My every expectation was exceeded. Those are the best Freespace missions I have ever played, probably - if I may be so bold - the best anyone's ever FREDed. Certainly the most complex. You folks have achieved things with Freespace that :v-old: never dreamed of.

The between-missions hub? Absolutely brilliant. I was instantly floored. It provides tons of exposition in a form that's accessible to those who desire it without being intrusive to those who don't. The moral choices? Okay, the tens of thousands of lives I'm gambling with aren't real, but you made me CARE about them! The tower defense mission felt a little lacking somehow, and it seemed slightly out of place. I was also never able to place repair or EMP turrets, I've no idea why. But it certainly didn't detract from the campaign overall. It was a bit of a weak finish (in terms of combat) though, compared to the death/capture of the Carthage. The Custos was a real pleasure to fly, though I would have liked another mission at its helm. The three non-weapon primaries seemed like interesting concepts but I personally only used the one that makes you tankier, and only once during the battle for the Carthage. Having the versatility of both a shotgun and a sniper rifle was a more attractive option to me than repairs that aren't support ship dependent or extra ammo for secondaries (which I hardly ever use anyway). The new primaries were both fun and added another layer of newness to the gameplay - and this is something I REALLY want to stress.

Tenebra was a superb ride the whole way through because it was constantly new. No two missions repeated the same exact trick, like how in AoA I was like "welp looks like another frantic few minutes of beam disarming and trying to guess where the next bombers are going to warp in" just about every mission. It had an engaging story, but the repetitive missions were a bland framework for it. WiH Acts I-II escaped that very nicely, while still rooted in some traditional Freespace tropes, but was largely an all-around improvement. It got too talky at times, and didn't deliver its walls-of-text story as organically as one might hope, but at the time (before the hub!!) I chalked it up to a limitation of the game, and was thankful that it was delivered more through pre-briefing exposition than in-mission gabbing like AoA. This new act as a whole is such a radical departure from the old Freespace. It felt more like Mass Effect at times. It was surreal, it was exhilarating, it was terrifying and it was DEEP. The story finally got a HUGE payoff with much revelation, turning the entirety of AoA on its freaking head in a 35-minute acid trip from the mouth of hell that I enjoyed every second of. I'd bet someone's played Amnesia...

Oh and the way you guys neatly stitched other mods (Vassago's Dirge, Sync/Trenscend, others perhaps?) into this one's fiction... that gave me a hearty chuckle. You tread the line between cheesy and elegant, good sirs. :p

I hope my gushing feedback is of some use to the team, even if only in moral support.

Spoiler-free TL;DR -
This lone act of a community mod for an almost fourteen-year-old game moved me more than most triple-A titles ever do, and I can't emphasize that enough. There is quality work here produced from love and, I'm sure, immense labor, and it really shows. You jumped the shark and stuck the landing, and I'm giving you a standing ovation for it. :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 07, 2013, 08:32:21 pm
Another bug-related question: should new pilot files work across multiple campaigns?
Cause I used mine to play through few missions of AoA and then while playing Tenebra things started going really bad.
Navigating the main menu was becoming slower and slower, and it occasionally crashed the game claiming that, bizarrely, a 'malloc failed'. Now after the Custos mission I simply can't enter the mainhall any more.
Turns out, my bp2-p2.csg file is 363MB big, and I don't suppose it's supposed to be that way :|

Here's the debug log:
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.6.17.9481
Passed cmdline options:
  -post_process
  -shadow_quality 0
  -no_vsync
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -fps
Building file index...
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x4f978a6b
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x64e738b9
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xbaa4dbd6
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x9689af32
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x53c3080c
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0xc9c97c6b
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x16ea6fad
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x8c01538d
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a0a46ec
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x7c9d7e74
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\Root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tangoA_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x2e10c984
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tangoB_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x0a5f4659
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\' ... 3 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 243 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 92 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 682 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2480 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 47 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1561 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\' ... 2 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace 2\' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\Root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tangoA_fs2.vp' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\tangoB_fs2.vp' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace 2\data\movies\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 36 roots and 18861 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".

  Sample rate: 44100 (44100)
  EFX version: 1.0
  Max auxiliary sends: 1
  Playback device: Generic Hardware on Realtek HD Audio output
  Capture device: Realtek HD Audio Input
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1680x1050 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor    : NVIDIA Corporation
  OpenGL Renderer  : GeForce 8600 GT/PCIe/SSE2/3DNOW!
  OpenGL Version   : 3.3.0

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_texture_lod".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_float".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_geometry_shader4".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_array".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Depth-blended Particles
Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Distorted Particles
Compiling deferred light shader...
   Loading built-in default shader for: deferred-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: deferred-f.sdr

  Compiling post-processing shader 1 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 2 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: blur-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 3 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: blur-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 4 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: brightpass-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 5 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 6 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaapre-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 7 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: ls-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 8 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: shadowdebug-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: shadowdebug-f.sdr

  Max texture units: 4 (32)
  Max elements vertices: 1048576
  Max elements indices: 1048576
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Max render buffer size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  OpenGL Shader Version: 3.30 NVIDIA via Cg compiler
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
Game Settings Table: Using Standard Loops For SEXP Arguments
Game Settings Table: Using standard event chaining behavior
Game Settings Table: External shaders are DISABLED
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-turretHotkey-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-equip-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 36, 'l_hit.wav'...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 37, 'm_hit.wav'...
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TABLES => Starting parse of 'colors.tbl'...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
Warning: "$perform less checks for death screams" flag is deprecated in favor of "$perform fewer checks for death screams"
Warning: "$allow primary link delay" flag is deprecated in favor of "$allow primary link at mission start"
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp50.eff) with 92 frames at 30 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
Ignoring free flight speed for weapon 'Trebuchet#Aegis'
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-shp.tbm' ...
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
Particle effect for impact spew disabled on ship 'Moon Landscape'.
Particle effect for damage spew disabled on ship 'Moon Landscape'.
Particle effect for impact spew disabled on ship 'The GRID'.
Particle effect for damage spew disabled on ship 'The GRID'.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-hdg.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_root-hdg.tbm' ...
ANI support1 with size 108x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI damage1 with size 148x25 (21.9% wasted)
ANI wingman1 with size 71x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman2 with size 35x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman3 with size 14x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI toggle1 with size 57x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI head1 with size 164x132 (48.4% wasted)
ANI weapons1 with size 126x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI weapons1_b with size 150x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI objective1 with size 149x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI energy1 with size 12x41 (35.9% wasted)
ANI targetview1 with size 137x156 (39.1% wasted)
ANI targetview2 with size 4x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targetview3 with size 7x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
ANI 2_energy2 with size 86x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI 2_reticle1 with size 40x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targhit1 with size 31x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI 2_leftarc with size 103x252 (1.6% wasted)
ANI 2_rightarc1 with size 103x252 (1.6% wasted)
ANI 2_toparc2 with size 35x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI 2_toparc3 with size 41x29 (9.4% wasted)
ANI netlag1 with size 29x30 (6.3% wasted)
ANI 2_lead1 with size 26x26 (18.8% wasted)
ANI 2_lock1 with size 56x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI 2_lockspin with size 100x100 (21.9% wasted)
ANI time1 with size 47x23 (28.1% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (BPstealthgauge.eff) with 3 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (viewfinder.eff) with 1 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (BPsignalgaugetop.eff) with 1 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (BPsignalgauge.eff) with 11 frames at 30 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-str.tbm' ...
loading animated cursor "cursor"
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-main-hall.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-main-hall.tbm' ...
MediaVPs: Flaming debris script loaded!
MediaVPs: Explosions script loaded!
Ships.tbl is : VALID
Weapons.tbl is : VALID
cfile_init() took 1477
TrackIR Init Failed - 1
Compiling video-processing shader ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: video-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: video-f.sdr
Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
PLR => Verifying 'Boris.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Verifying complete!
PLR => Verifying 'BP.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Verifying complete!
PLR => Verifying 'WiH.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Verifying complete!
Got event GS_EVENT_MAIN_MENU (0) in state GS_STATE_INITIAL_PLAYER_SELECT (37)
PLR => Loading 'BP.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Parsing:  Info...
PLR => Parsing:  Scoring...
PLR => Parsing:  ScoringMulti...
PLR => Parsing:  HUD...
PLR => Parsing:  Variables...
PLR => Parsing:  Multiplayer...
PLR => Parsing:  Controls...
PLR => Parsing:  Settings...
Someone passed an extension to bm_load for file 'hammer1.pcx'
PLR => Loading complete!
CSG => Loading 'BP.bp2-p2.csg' with version 0...
CSG => Parsing:  Flags...
CSG => Parsing:  Info...
CSG => Parsing:  Missions...
CSG => Parsing:  Techroom...
CSG => Parsing:  Loadout...
CSG => Parsing:  Scoring...
CSG => Parsing:  RedAlert...
CSG => Parsing:  HUD...
CSG => Parsing:  Variables...
CSG => Parsing:  Settings...
CSG => Parsing:  Controls...
CSG => Parsing:  Cutscenes...
CSG => Loading complete!
CSG => Loading 'BP.bp2-p2.csg' with version 0...
CSG => Parsing:  Flags...
CSG => Parsing:  Info...
CSG => Parsing:  Missions...
CSG => Parsing:  Techroom...
CSG => Parsing:  Loadout...
CSG => Parsing:  Scoring...
CSG => Parsing:  RedAlert...
Malloc failed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ERROR: Malloc Failed!

File: windebug.cpp
Line: 1787
Freeing all existing models...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 08:35:36 pm
Can you post that .csg file for The_E to analyze? It'll help us test the new pilot code.

What OS are you on? (windows i assume looking at the log)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 08:38:46 pm
And please don't be shy about posting your thoughts - we can take tech support to another thread.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 07, 2013, 08:45:08 pm
gack - this bug (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2503) is obviously alive and kicking...

If you zip the csg it should end up really tiny, please post that zipped file either here or attach it to the mantis issue.

edit: actually, in that zip can you include all the .csg files (probably at least two) and the .plr file as well?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 07, 2013, 08:52:29 pm
gack - this bug (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2503) is obviously alive and kicking...

If you zip the csg it should end up really tiny
Hope so, my connection will be sketchy at best in the next few days.
I'll post it as soon as I can.

And yes, OS is Windows XP.

Also, if it's relevant, I switched to the updated build The E posted mid-campaign. (The performance boost was great, btw :))
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: DrewToby on January 07, 2013, 08:54:58 pm
Amazing so far, I love the new music, particularly the Dreamscape song. What's the source for that?

Also, somewhat embarrassing: on the early mission with Artemis Station, how do I compromise Artemis' comms? I can't seem to scan the comm subsystem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 08:56:30 pm
Amazing so far, I love the new music, particularly the Dreamscape song. What's the source for that?

Also, somewhat embarrassing: on the early mission with Artemis Station, how do I compromise Artemis' comms? I can't seem to scan the comm subsystem.

Try nosing up to it real close and kinda bouncing around a bit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on January 07, 2013, 09:01:46 pm
In order to scan you need to be within 300m and have clear line of sight. If you look in the target view, you'll know you have a clear sight when the box does not have an X over the subsystem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: DrewToby on January 07, 2013, 09:05:35 pm
Amazing so far, I love the new music, particularly the Dreamscape song. What's the source for that?

Also, somewhat embarrassing: on the early mission with Artemis Station, how do I compromise Artemis' comms? I can't seem to scan the comm subsystem.

Try nosing up to it real close and kinda bouncing around a bit.

Thanks Battuta, smacking my nose into the base worked. I also noticed I have no new UEF or GTVA ships or weapons in my tech database, except for the Carthage and Asteria station. I'm running the Complete Installer with E's new build, if it matters.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 07, 2013, 09:14:39 pm
And please don't be shy about posting your thoughts - we can take tech support to another thread.
Right, sorry if I should've opened a new thread for that.

About the campaign, I don't think I can say all that much yet, it still seems to be quite firmly in the 'build-up phase'. But technically it's marvelous, the storyline is intriguing and the soundtrack is perfect, that's for sure.

(And the subsystems on that station are placed quite evilly, not sure if by design... finding the right angle took a bit of random ramming)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 07, 2013, 09:27:23 pm
Hey guys, been a while! Been periodically checking to see if ya'll were alive and kicking, and it looks like you are! Yay for Space Sim fans!

Redownloading the whole saga now. Also, you guys might want to make the mediavps 3.6.12 links a bit easier to find for the sake of us spoiled by automatic installs.  :shaking:

A bit of an aside but has Axem done any new stuff? Vasaggo's Dirge is probably my favorite FS2 mod besides BP.  ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 07, 2013, 09:31:09 pm
gack - this bug (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2503) is obviously alive and kicking...

If you zip the csg it should end up really tiny, please post that zipped file either here or attach it to the mantis issue.

edit: actually, in that zip can you include all the .csg files (probably at least two) and the .plr file as well?
Zipping worked spectacularly, here are the files.

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 09:31:50 pm
Hey guys, been a while! Been periodically checking to see if ya'll were alive and kicking, and it looks like you are! Yay for Space Sim fans!

Redownloading the whole saga now. Also, you guys might want to make the mediavps 3.6.12 links a bit easier to find for the sake of us spoiled by automatic installs.  :shaking:

A bit of an aside but has Axem done any new stuff? Vasaggo's Dirge is probably my favorite FS2 mod besides BP.  ;)

JAD 2.22 is incredible, play it now! And he worked on this Blue Planet release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 07, 2013, 09:44:11 pm
Oh dear, right of the bat. I'm using wxlauncher for mod control, media VPS 3.6.14 no see. Used the complete BP installer on a fresh FS2 reinstall. I've been testing as I've been loading campaigns, no problems so far with all the graphic shinies working just fine. Here's the error message. Any advice? Should I just use the old launcher?

"post_processing.tbl(line 79):
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [#Light Shafts] .

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 07, 2013, 09:46:48 pm
Congratulations. You guys managed to get me into seconds-per-frame territory on a computer that didn't even blink at Delenda Est with the original Steve-O karunas. :p

I'll try to write something more detailed later, but for now suffice to say that you've raised the bar yet again. stop it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2013, 09:48:48 pm
Oh dear, right of the bat. I'm using wxlauncher for mod control, media VPS 3.6.14 no see. Used the complete BP installer on a fresh FS2 reinstall. I've been testing as I've been loading campaigns, no problems so far with all the graphic shinies working just fine. Here's the error message. Any advice? Should I just use the old launcher?

"post_processing.tbl(line 79):
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [#Light Shafts] .

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>"

Hey, man, all that red text in the install instructions that said BP was no longer compatible with 3.6.14 - we MEAN it! Use the BP builds that the installer provided you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Garfield on January 07, 2013, 09:50:29 pm
Just finished act 3 now and... wow, that was quite the trip. Amazing work, some of most engaging, complex missions I've ever played. Great job!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 07, 2013, 09:53:25 pm
Quote from: General Battuta
And I

JIZZED

IN

MY PANTS
I believe that sums up my feelings after finishing Act 3.

EDIT: Because battuta asked me to, my thoughts on the Gaian Effort:

Spoiler:
That Gef woman's thoughts in the dreamscape about baseliners and separate species scares me.  I'm a bit of a transhumanist myself, but mankind splitting up into various species that simply don't care about each other but regard each other as aliens or worse has me worried about any future we might have as a (mostly) united species.  I'm actually rather fond of the idea of multiple, diverse species of humans roaming the galaxy, but I just hope we all remember where we all came from if that ever happens.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 07, 2013, 09:54:50 pm
Oh dear, right of the bat. I'm using wxlauncher for mod control, media VPS 3.6.14 no see. Used the complete BP installer on a fresh FS2 reinstall. I've been testing as I've been loading campaigns, no problems so far with all the graphic shinies working just fine. Here's the error message. Any advice? Should I just use the old launcher?

"post_processing.tbl(line 79):
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name:], found [#Light Shafts] .

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_14_NO-SSE.exe! <no symbol>"

Hey, man, all that red text in the install instructions that said BP was no longer compatible with 3.6.14 - we MEAN it! Use the BP builds that the installer provided you.

Fair enough, just getting readjusted the the mod scene. I always seem to miss seemingly obvious stuff like this. Didn't realize there was another version within the install. Working now :P

Nice intro by the way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on January 08, 2013, 12:00:42 am
I'm getting some really strong reflections from subspace warps and weapons fire off the ships. Is this a minor graphics bug or do I have a brightness setting somewhere turned way the hell too high?

Seriously, if there's a subspace warp ANYWHERE every single ship starts glowing white. Fire a Prometheus and the entire side of the ship lights up bright green. I just don't remember non-WoD ships being this shiny.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2013, 12:14:37 am
I'm getting some really strong reflections from subspace warps and weapons fire off the ships. Is this a minor graphics bug or do I have a brightness setting somewhere turned way the hell too high?

Seriously, if there's a subspace warp ANYWHERE every single ship starts glowing white. Fire a Prometheus and the entire side of the ship lights up bright green. I just don't remember non-WoD ships being this shiny.

Check the read me in the install thread. You need to adjust your -spec_point. It's a consequence of FreeSpace's default weird lighting settings interacting oddly with the deferred lighting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 08, 2013, 01:14:38 am
I hate to be that guy who spews negativity, but I CANNOT finish a mission I am stuck on.  The mission where
(spoiler-riffic)
Spoiler:
the elder of near unkillability needed to be assasinated was bad enough, I had to do that thing at least ten times with difficultly making very little visible difference.  Currently I'm stuck at trying to take out the freaking invincible defenses around neptune in a rather short amount of time.  The turret virus doesn't have much effect and destroying the carthages radar dishes are nigh impossible with the turrets there to either shoot me dead instantly with seemingly perfect accuracy and massive volume of fire or permadisable my wingmen (at least until the carthage loljumps).  The radar dishes themselves are quite durable and having the frigates target the 'mine layers' hasnt changed the survivability of anything that is detected by the turrets that are trying to deal with the radar dishes.  The fact that I have to hang back and babysit the frigates while fighters and bombers harass them (took me three tries to figure out that was happening) doesn't exactly help matters either. 

This could go on for hours, I have been trying to get through that mission for what seems like ages now.  Its a huge atmosphere/mood killer when I am constantly dying or 'failing' because the carthage decided to pull out with its seemingly indestructible engines.  Which by the way take bloody ages to be destroyed by anti turret strikes that are 'great at taking out subsystems' to paraphrase.  With that rant out of the way I have to say I'm rather dissapointed, I completely lack the capability to get through this campaign.  The fact that this is bloody axe murderer **** my wife while I watch difficulty compared to previous versions doesn't help much either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Droid803 on January 08, 2013, 01:16:50 am
Played 1.5 missions (not counting the dreamstuff) and I'm liking it more than WiHp1 a lot already.
I actually get to do stuff.

I'm getting ****ed by lack of reverse thrust/AB on the Anuswhatever (I'm going to call it that because fighters without reverse thrust are ass...that means everything except the kent but okay) though. Seriously, that makes it from a cool fighter to a lame one. Entirely my fault though. I can't fly without it anymore - I SMACK into things like the AI :lol:

More to come later when I get some free time to finish actually playing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2013, 01:18:23 am
I hate to be that guy who spews negativity, but I CANNOT finish a mission I am stuck on.  The mission where
(spoiler-riffic)
Spoiler:
the elder of near unkillability needed to be assasinated was bad enough, I had to do that thing at least ten times with difficultly making very little visible difference.  Currently I'm stuck at trying to take out the freaking invincible defenses around neptune in a rather short amount of time.  The turret virus doesn't have much effect and destroying the carthages radar dishes are nigh impossible with the turrets there to either shoot me dead instantly with seemingly perfect accuracy and massive volume of fire or permadisable my wingmen (at least until the carthage loljumps).  The radar dishes themselves are quite durable and having the frigates target the 'mine layers' hasnt changed the survivability of anything that is detected by the turrets that are trying to deal with the radar dishes.  The fact that I have to hang back and babysit the frigates while fighters and bombers harass them (took me three tries to figure out that was happening) doesn't exactly help matters either. 

This could go on for hours, I have been trying to get through that mission for what seems like ages now.  Its a huge atmosphere/mood killer when I am constantly dying or 'failing' because the carthage decided to pull out with its seemingly indestructible engines.  Which by the way take bloody ages to be destroyed by anti turret strikes that are 'great at taking out subsystems' to paraphrase.  With that rant out of the way I have to say I'm rather dissapointed, I completely lack the capability to get through this campaign.  The fact that this is bloody axe murderer **** my wife while I watch difficulty compared to previous versions doesn't help much either.

I vow to you that mission is easy as heck. You don't have to fire a single shot. Just do what the little box at the top of the screen tells you.

Spoiler:
Start by ordering your wingmen to guard the Serenity. You can help out if you like. Meanwhile, tell the artillery to shoot the tankers to your left. Get a nice high angle and shoot the Mjolnir beams out. Once that's done, tell each of your wingmen to kill an Aurora. Snipe the AWACS domes. If you've got time, make a run in and scan Neptune HQ's comms, weapons, and sensors.

You should have plenty of points by now. Get in position under the Carthage's belly. Call in anti-turret teams, space superiority, strike bombers, and gunships. Have them all attack the engine subsystem. As soon as the Carthage is disabled, just tell them all to depart.

Fly away and wait until you get the option to call in the Toutatis. Unless you've taken a lot of casualties (more than 17 or 18), you should be fine from here on out. Grimler any Mjolnirs that shoot at the Toutatis.

And pretty important note - always use an Ammo Pack and Grimlers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: KyadCK on January 08, 2013, 02:21:14 am
So... First mission... Review Battuta style.  :p
Spoiler:
Briefing: Uh... Wat?

1st Try:
Well, ok... Tell gefs to attack sensor thing. *boom*
Take my time scanning all the important things, trying to find them all.
Kill gas miner #4. Stick around to kill little ships.
*BOOOOM*

...K, that was a bad idea.

2nd Try:
Order to kill the sensor thing. *boom*
Scan one, kill it, move on to scan the next.
*BOOOOOM*

**** those things have a big blast radius.

3rd Try:
Order to kill the sensor thing. *boom*
Somewhat quickly scan everything, I'm learning the formation now.
Kill miner 1, go to kill miner 2, turn around to see if 1 is down yet.
*BOOOOOM*

That was stupid of me...

4th Try:
Orde-... wait, lets try something.
Order to kill the sensor thing.
Notice I can tell when it'll go down by watching my wing mate indicator and seeing how many Gef are dead/dying. Surprisingly accurate.
*boom*
Scan everything quickly.
Kill miner 4
Kill miner 3
Kill miner 2
Kill miner 1
Continue in a straight line to get the hell away. Wait for aftermath.
I really should have taken the ammo pack, it's worth more to me then this secondary gun...
Tell wing mates to engage at will, call gunboat support on the cruisers, mop up survivors.
I gotta kill the Kents? awww maaaan...
Realize my ETS controls are still screwed from when I had an older keyboard. Oops.
DAMN I love the Sidhe, good bye Kents.
Ya, I kinda wanna see their reaction... Besides, more story stuffs.
LOL, stupid Tevs.
*Jump out*

And yes, I chose to kill the Gef pilots. They're scum anyway.

I must say, while the learning curve seemed just a tad high, when I got it, I felt really good and clever for figuring it out. It was satisfying to win, not just another batch of silhouettes to add to my canopy. Great way to start off the new chapter.  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on January 08, 2013, 02:28:25 am
Really enjoyed this release.  Thanks for everything!  I really liked how I was strategizing for every mission, even if it did mean multiple restarts.

Congrats on one hell of a release to everyone who contributed! 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on January 08, 2013, 02:50:28 am

Check the read me in the install thread. You need to adjust your -spec_point. It's a consequence of FreeSpace's default weird lighting settings interacting oddly with the deferred lighting.

Derp.  :ick:

Serves me right for not reading the instructions, I guess.

I decided to replay the full BP series to lead up to this new release, so reviews of new material are forthcoming...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 08, 2013, 03:14:25 am
 I have to confess, I was lame and already extracted the soundtrack.
 Darius seems to have no trouble holding firm the good in BP's writing and music. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 08, 2013, 07:54:51 am
Just came home from Munich. Downloading already. Still to minutes to go. I neeeed this.

(http://www.tacomaworld.com/gallery/data/500/fry-drool.gif)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on January 08, 2013, 08:02:20 am
I have to confess, I was lame and already extracted the soundtrack.
 Darius seems to have no trouble holding firm the good in BP's writing and music. ;)

As with everything in this mod, story and sound is a team effort. A lot of the awesome music you heard is from Belisarius as well (personal favourite being War_in_Heaven.ogg).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 08, 2013, 08:35:59 am
What is happening here? Is Laporte drunk? Overdosis sedatives? Or graphics error?


[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 08, 2013, 08:42:17 am
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83310.0

also, when posting logs, please make sure you're a) using the correct build, b) using the correct mod, and c) actually running the appropriate debug build. I can not help you if you're using a mod that has nothing to do with BP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2013, 08:50:08 am
Almost certain that's due to a resolution our hud gauge table isn't supporting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 08, 2013, 09:38:11 am
Oops, sorry for the wrong fs2_open.log there. This indeed seems to be a resolution problem, because when I switched to 1024x786 it worked just fine.

But now I have another problem. When I try to launch with the normal build it says:
Code: [Select]
Malloc Failed!

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>

Loading with Debug doesn't work at all. Doesn't Malloc Failed mean I don't have enough memory? Why is that now? It worked 20 minutes ago.

€: I have 4GB of RAM, by the way.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on January 08, 2013, 09:56:46 am
I have the same problem as Junky apparently. I'm pretty sure it's pilot code related.

Code: [Select]
Malloc Failed!

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
KERNEL32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
KERNEL32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>

This happened after I went to the mission selection option on the regular build and tested the last mission of act 1 (already reached that point), I was testing different command line options to make the ambient a little less dark, now it doesn't run when trying to progress on the campaign, and the debug doesn't even start, when selecting the mission viewer it crashes as well.

Been playing with a "new" pilot, well actually the pilot name is the same as an old one, I figured the build would rewrite it but apparently it does not, because when I first when to the mission selection I could see all missions unlocked.

EDIT:
I have a 122MB player file on the data/players/ folder corresponding to the WiH player, WTH FS2?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 08, 2013, 10:07:41 am
Still playing this and while I don't realy like the shadow war style, the capship mission...Oh my god, this is so awesome :)

Since I read about the Phoenicia...just a standard rebuilt Hecate or did she get some gimmicks?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2013, 12:28:56 pm
Sounds like the new pilot code is giving you guys trouble. New pilots for both of you!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 08, 2013, 01:59:10 pm
Okay, some constructive criticism guys.

I get this campaign is designed for veterans. I get that Freespace needs some new life injected into it. However, in comparison to War in Heaven part 1, and definitely Age of Aquarius, that feature creep is becoming an actual problem instead of adding to the fun.

In each mission, I am given a completely different set of mechanics to operate with no training on how to use them. I am commanding fleets with no idea what effect they are having on the enemy. I am being shot down countless times because I flat out do not understand the rules of each engagement, since they keep changing mission by mission.

The story of War in Heaven is amazing, like a great book you can't put down. I think it's worthy in its complexity to rival an official Freespace 3 sequel.

But in contrast prior campaigns, I am simply feeling overwhelming with the sheer amount of STUFF I am being told to do. I felt, well, justifiably pissed off when the mission briefer snarked, "Oh, do you need to take notes?" I'm sorry, but I don't feel that is good game design. I am sure many vets will oogle over the sheer amount of stuff you can DO in each mission, but the main point has to come back to, "is it fun?"

The FREDDING is amazing, the graphics are amazing, the story is amazing. But from where I am right now, the campaign just isn't FUN. It feels like a chore.

You know that meme that came out a while ago for Modern Warfare 2? RAMERIEZ! DO EVERYTHING! Well, that's what I feel WiH act 3 asks of the player. And for me at least, it's too much.

I'll be playing future releases to be sure, but I would ask the team to take a look at how much complexity is really required of the player in each mission. I spent more time in the first major fleet action on Neptune staring at my keyboard mashing commands than I did, you know, doing fun stuff like shooting down fighters and helping friendly capships.

Maybe my feelings will change as I move forward, but right now, "most complex Freespace 2 missions to date" doesn't read like a selling point.

So, (so far)

AoA fun factor: 9
WiH part I & II fun factor: 9
WiH part III fun factor: 6.5
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 08, 2013, 02:19:31 pm
One of the big criticisms we got for WiH part one was that the missions were not very innovative on a gameplay level. Sure, they were solid and well-executed, and they had new and exciting stuff in them, but when you got down to it, they were just the same old FS2 gameplay remixed a bit.

We tried to address this with the Fedayeen missions, as we felt that this was an opportunity to stretch our imaginations a bit, make missions that are very very nonstandard. We are aware that much of it comes at the player cold, and we apologize for this, but at the same time, we feel that none of the missions are unwinnable if you think about your way through them. Yes, this requires a greater deal of attention to briefings and dialogues, but then, you are supposed to get into the mindset of the Fedayeen, or SOC, and ask yourself what covert ops and spec ops means in terms of FS gameplay.

That being said, we do plan to dial back the crazy for later missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 08, 2013, 02:22:51 pm
Amusing realization: The gameplay complexity and diversity for BP is increasing in a fashion similar to the literary concept of rising action/climax.

Granted, I can't see the last two acts, and kind of doubt the actual climax of the story happens in act III, so that's probably a totally meaningless realization. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2013, 02:25:16 pm
It's definitely something we worried about a lot. Task overload is a real issue. We wanted to take the core principle of BP2 (you are just one soldier, and not very powerful) and overturn it by providing a ton of information and capability, rather than by providing sweet guns and loads of hit points. But it's a challenge to grapple with.

Try focusing on the command aspect of each mission. Do as little as possible yourself. Specifically (major spoilers) -

Spoiler:
In the first combat mission, scan the gas miners yourself, but use wingman and gunboat commands for everything else.

In the second combat mission, identify the Elder, then hack the Mjolnir and order it to kill the Elder.

In the third combat mission, you'll definitely need to fly the ship yourself, so that one's pretty hands on. But you've only got a couple abilities to keep track of.

In the fourth combat mission, the battle at Neptune, just focus on one task at a time. You have a lot of options, but you don't need to execute them all.

In the fifth combat mission, place your turrets, and hang back. Intervene with missile fire and wingman commands, but don't get bogged down in a furball.

In every mission the key principle is to avoid the standing fight. Hit hard, then get out. Fight task overload by coming up with a clear mental plan. All the HUD gauges and keys to press can be overwhelming, but like a real fighter pilot you'll quickly learn how to filter out everything except what you need for your immediate goal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2013, 02:29:26 pm
I'll add that while the missions feel intimidating at first, they're all (with the exception of
Spoiler:
the assassination
) pretty easy once you have a good plan down - none of them really require intense dogfighting skillz as much as caution, good command, and precision. And a lot of them have multiple approaches. Deus Ex in Space is kinda the name of the game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Useful Dave on January 08, 2013, 02:32:07 pm
Spoiler:
In the second combat mission, identify the Elder, then hack the Mjolnir and order it to kill the Elder.

And I thought managing to glide in, pull off the objective and get out without even being hit once via careful lining up and alt+x was pulling it off nicely, damn! That shows the sheer range of options available.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: [Wolf]Maverick on January 08, 2013, 02:44:19 pm
Just finished Act3.
I don't know how you guys did it again, but you raised the bar once more.
The Story is awesome, i loved the writing and the references to Richard Morgan :)
This mod impresses me more, than almost every other game. You guys really nailed the feeling
of a brutal civil war, where are no good or bad guys or right and wrong, just survival.
Some people are still whining about Freespace 3. Who needs FS3, we have Blue Planet :)
The Missions are one of the most complex and greatest i played. For my
taste there was to much sneaky stealthy stuff and not enough real fighting but
nevertheless the missions were great.
My only hope is that we dont have to wait too long for Act 4.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 08, 2013, 03:28:36 pm
SF-Junky & Rodo,

If you still have the pilot files around that caused your issues, can you please zip them (don't worry about the size, they'll be tiny after they're zipped) and attach them to this thread, or the relevant mantis issue (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2503)?  Thanks
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on January 08, 2013, 03:31:08 pm
Just finished myself. Truly impressive work guys! Give yourselves a pat on the back and some time off; you've genuinely made some masterpeices here i'd say! As has been said, you've definately raised the bar once more!

Spoiler:
I loved how there's lots of different ways of completing many of the missions; definately seeing what you mean with the whole 'Deus Ex in Space' thing. Story had be gripped all the way, and there's some really memorable FS moments in this ("One Future" where you get to command the Custos-X was my fav i think). I'm also really intrigued with what you hear in the final Dream mission (some genuinely interesting ideas there).

I'm really looking forward to the future acts ... though i don't know if i'll ever forgive you guys :lol:; not only did i find myself working with the HoL, my most hated faction in all of FS(!), but you possibly revealed a faction i have come to truly adore to be some kind of... abandoned fraud... :(

...I'm going to go cry in a corner now... :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 08, 2013, 04:33:58 pm
The main issue I had
Spoiler:
was disabling the Carthage's engines before it got too damaged. I called in fighters and gunboats as the briefing recommended, but the number of enemy fighters never seemed to drop. After a few minutes, I called in bomber support and told EVERYONE to disable the Carthage. Only problem was, that damn ship's engines were so hardened no amount of torpedo or anti-subsystem weapons seemed to deplete it fast enough before the hull went critical and the ship jumped. Destroying the radars are next to impossible due to point defense guns, and even virus infecting the corvettes didn't seem to do anything to help my strike team. I finally got lucky, but that is not a mission I plan on playing over and over again. It just wasn't, for me, fun at all. :banghead:

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 08, 2013, 05:00:19 pm
The way I beat "Her Finest Hour":
Spoiler:
1, F8, 2, F7, C-3-5, F8, 2, F9, S, S, S, S, S, S, S, C-3-4, F9, S, S, S, S, S, S, S, C-3-4, F8, 2, F9, F9, F9, C-1-1-1, F9, C-1-2-1, F9, C-1-3-1, F8, 2, F6, 2, F6, C-3-1, 1, C-4-1, C-4-3, C-4-3, C-4-3, E, C-3-2, C-3-1, 4, ALT-J.
Maybe I need to play on a higher difficulty. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 08, 2013, 05:04:24 pm
Her finest hour is the Carthage mission?
Which missiles do you use?
Tried to use the grimmler like the trebs, but two of them did not destroy a mjolnir beam -.-
Now I think about using shrikes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 08, 2013, 05:10:04 pm
Spoiler:
Mjolnirs are fragile and easy prey for your wingmen. Save your Shrikes for the AWACS and the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 08, 2013, 05:12:20 pm
The story elements were by far the highlight of this campaign. It seems no one can really be trusted.

Spoiler:
While I like the fact that the Vishnans are being presented as, perhaps, no more noble or trustworthy than the Shivans. I dislike the implication mankind's ONLY option to survive is to become the Shivan's lapdog, just like Bosch had intended all along. Forgive me, but I find the idea a war criminal like Bosch was, "right all along" distasteful. I liked the additional explanation of Shivan motives, especially their reactive war doctrine based around absorbing losses and learning from them. They take the long view because they can afford to. Traditional military victory is impossible.

The issue is, storywise, how to present a conclusion that:

A: Results in humanity not becoming slaves of Vishnan OR Shivans
B: Giving the player some kind of cathartic victory (I would really like to have the option to take a joint UEF/GTVA force to 'Shivantown') I get the Shivans/Vishnans are 'godslayers' but one has to assume they have some sort of weakness, if not militarily then within how they think and are self bound.
C: Generally giving the player character a fighting chance. The problem of creating godlike, powerful enemies is how to defeat them without involving some sort of Deus Ex. I give the designers and story writers of BP credit, but I hope the line can be walked between sticking it to our old enemies, the Shivans, ending the war between the UEF and GTVA, and in general find a way to survive that slips out from the old sci-fi cliche, "abandon war puny mortals... or we'll KILL YOU ALL!" the Vishnans offer.

All that's left is to see how this thing plays out. But as it stands, it doesn't seem like there's any reasonable option for any of the characters to take other than blind obedience. Freespace was always about fighting impossible odds. Maybe not winning in a traditional sense, but I'd like to see a resolution that allows for some kind of victory. Freespace 1 ended with the door to Earth being slammed shut in the Shivan's face. Freespace 2 required a sacrifice of a star system, but the barbarians at the gate were halted at incredible cost. What will be the outcome here? That's what I wholeheartedly look forward to finding out. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Suongadon on January 08, 2013, 05:27:46 pm
Just finished my second run through act 3 (and still forgot to scan the containers  :nono:) Beautiful, beautiful stuff.

Spoiler:
Battle of Neptune was definitely my favorite mission though. Maybe even my favorite including Acts 1 and 2. A lot different than the BoE I expected, but it was really a refreshing departure at the same time. Not that I didn't valiantly try to duck and weave through walls of pulse laser fire half a dozen times before I gave up on that and sat back directing the battle.

Only bad thing I could say is that I didn't get to fly an Izra'il. :(

final mission:
Spoiler:
So who else turned around right away when Ken said not to? I shrieked like a child and spilled milk all over my (husband's) keyboard. :lol:

oh and 4th mission:
Spoiler:
The debrief text if you lose a lot of pilots, is this something that will come back to haunt/help in Act 4/5 or does it affect act 3 somehow?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JCDNWarrior on January 08, 2013, 05:38:20 pm
I'll add that while the missions feel intimidating at first, they're all (with the exception of
Spoiler:
the assassination
) pretty easy once you have a good plan down - none of them really require intense dogfighting skillz as much as caution, good command, and precision. And a lot of them have multiple approaches. Deus Ex in Space is kinda the name of the game.


I really really noticed the Deus Ex elements and feeling a great deal too, not just in the hub missions but the actual missions too. As said in the BP channel on IRC, i'm incredibly impressed by Act 3. Certainly it took me a while to understand that I'm actually a commander and don't need to perform all those duties myself (I still went ahead to do so though, most of the time).
The story and its elements and ways it's brought is very impressive, too. I'll have to admit that it was quite a lot of text though.
By the way, I noticed that many of the 3rd party music I wanted to use have since been used in Act 3, I was surprised every time I heard one come up during the game.
As expected, Act 3 has raised the bar so much for me that I for the second time (First after WiH1) have to spend a great deal of time and effort to write, wiki and FRED to reach that heightened bar so that my own project will be of sufficient quality. It's a little annoying but greatly exhilarating at the same time, as it allows me to retrace some of the 'routes' and efforts made to achieve what has been done. Almost like playing the detective, if you will.
Hopefully others will follow your example as well and raise their bar even more, too.
I definitely hope that you'll continue setting and raising the bar for many years to come. I'm certainly looking forward to play every new part that you'll release.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 08, 2013, 05:46:52 pm
Random question:

"Violence.ogg", where is it from?

Ah, I see it's one of Belisarius' compositions. Damn, I swear I've heard it before, outside of any freespace community context.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 08, 2013, 06:16:43 pm
The intro kinda gives it away about the Deus Ex theme and all.

So I've finished the first mission after 6 or 7 attempts (the penultimate had me shooting the last convoy ship while it was escaping.... and yeah I'm that bad a player) and I've tried the second mission once. Just to say that I am a bit surprised to see Serenity themes about the Fedayeen and that the missions seem amazingly well written out. Very solid, very believable.

Also, I was pleasantly surprised at the new Aquitaine music. Really well made, I'd guess it is Belisarius work. So congrats!

I'll refrain a more insighted feedback until  I've done more missions.

e: fast reviewing the vps, noticed the beautifully queer "requiem". That came from 2001?)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 08, 2013, 06:38:45 pm
Her finest hour is the Carthage mission?
Which missiles do you use?
Tried to use the grimmler like the trebs, but two of them did not destroy a mjolnir beam -.-
Now I think about using shrikes.
Spoiler:
On the easier difficulties, at least, you can complete the mission without firing a single shot. Even scanning the station is optional. The only thing you really need to do other than use your command abilities is move underneath the Carthage before you call in your strike package (the reinforcements warp in near you, and things go much more smoothly if they don't need to maneuver in order to get a clear shot at the Carthage's engines).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on January 08, 2013, 07:32:15 pm
Ok, the good:
Spoiler:
Nice little story you've got set, amazing indeed. ++
Options for the player on the outcome of the missions (like killing the carthage, suicide, etc) +
Dreamscape, a step in a good direction +

the bad:
Spoiler:
Feature Creep, it's over 9000!!!! --
Reasons:
I feel you guys went a little too far away with it, I honestly felt.... inferior, or like a subnormal person when playing your missions with thoughts like:
1) How patethic am I that I cannot win this ****.
2) Hell what am I supposed to do now?
3) ****, someone help meee!.
I'm not saying cut the features, just tone it down a bit to a more usable level.
For a FREDer is easy to know how to beat a mission but difficult to express to the player HOW to win it, next time focus on that second part eagerly.

Features badly explained -
Reasons:
Or maybe not, but too many of them presented at the same time... maybe a mission to make the player familiar with the system might work.

Chatter on combat, it's too damn high! --
Really, I know BP is a wordy campaign but.. really?
Something that crossed my mind a couple of times while playing was: "**** you Laporte, I'M LAPORTE and I'm watching the keys of my keyboard now, SO I CANNOT BE TALKING!" :P

All in all, as always, a real piece of work and a nice motivating campaign.
Will be waiting for the next release eagerly.

Kudos.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 08, 2013, 07:44:30 pm
Spoiler:
What if I don't want to destroy the Carthage? Is there a way to capture, lets say by disabling the engine and then ordering my assets to avoid her?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on January 08, 2013, 08:17:32 pm
Spoiler:
What if I don't want to destroy the Carthage? Is there a way to capture, lets say by disabling the engine and then ordering my assets to avoid her?

Spoiler:
Didn't the option come up? I didn't call in the Toutatis since the situation was under control, and then I was given a "1 or 2" option of destroying the Carthage and accepting Lopez's surrender.

gaaaaaaah I just finished the campaign. omgz. You guys have outdone yourselves again.

The gameplay was the best I've ever seen in a Freespace campaign. Every mission was completely unique in the way it had to be handled, and I found the methods I had at my disposal were reasonably well explained (at least after a couple failed attempts :P... hmmm... remind you of anyone else's war strategy?). I can see how the constant change in gameplay would be quite confusing to someone used to point-and-shoot FS missions, but all the info I needed was there in the briefing, and a lot of gameplay elements (like the stealth system) were consistent.

Specific comments on gameplay:

Spoiler:
Wait am I going to have to kill these Gefs holy **** I'm killing these Gefs why does this hurt, I killed dozens of Gefs in acts 1 and 2 (on subsequent playthroughs: hmm the dialogue changed based on how many of them died does that affect the possible repercussions) and holy **** I had to kill Buntus WTF they were wargods OMG what am I becoming

WOOOOOO INCEPTION

WOOOOOO THE BLADE ITSELF PEW PEW PEW PEW

how do I shot Carthage?!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOO FREESPACE TOWER DEFENSE also how the flying frak did you guys make that mission that is amazing

:eek2:

The story... holy ****, I can't even comment on the story yet. I need a couple more playthroughs (and a couple dozen playthroughs of Universal Truth) to really get what the Shivans and Vishnans are doing. One thing I really enjoyed seeing is the Vishnan's mysticism in AoA being deconstructed thoroughly and completely in WiH's techroom stuff and Tenebra. Also, very intrigued by the details of Shivan "biology" and everything about them that was revealed by Ken. That last mission... I imagine HLP will be wondering about a lot of that for a while.

9001/10 will play again
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 08, 2013, 08:27:18 pm
I would just like to say that this is the best act yet! The performance was actually really good on my Radeon 4250 (all thanks to the BP team and their quick responses), and the graphics are amazing. I haven't had any problems yet. Kudos to the BP team!

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 08, 2013, 08:46:03 pm
The "new" Aquitaine theme was not made by Belisarius, it was made by Dan Wentz (as well as other re-mixes of the FS OSTs) as part of a remastering project he did out of nostalgia, you can find his posts on the forums.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on January 08, 2013, 08:54:31 pm
Fantastic Campaign! Loved every moment of it. Questions in the spoilers below. (There will be more at a later date)
Spoiler:
In the last mission Bei shows you the events that took place at the end of AoA in Delta Serpentis. However, you hear the Vishnans and Shivans having a different discussion then the one you heard in AoA. Is Bei and Laporte hearing two separate things? How did Bei find Laporte In the crazy acid trip dreamland. Did the Vishnans help him find and connect to her?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 08, 2013, 10:48:49 pm
Spoiler:
Given that they are cosmic entities talking, I imagine it was simply another side to their conversation we didn't comprehend the first time. Bei seemed to be there on behalf of the Elders and the Vishnans to convince her to join them.

The issue is, who, if any, is more trust worthy? A seemingly benevolent group of precursors who nonetheless are conspiring to shape human society into something they can use, or a xenocidal cosmic horror whose mouthpiece is a war criminal with, "good intention".

There doesn't seem to be a good third option at this point. The Vishnans have already written off humanity, and the Shivans are chomping at the bit to finish the job.

Plus, both the Elders and the GTVA have their "ace in a hole" projects left to deploy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 08, 2013, 10:51:25 pm
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 08, 2013, 10:58:14 pm
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on January 08, 2013, 11:27:38 pm
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.

Spoiler:
I actually tried that and it turned out to be more difficult than destroying the Morena and calling in the transport.

Fantastic Campaign! Loved every moment of it. Questions in the spoilers below. (There will be more at a later date)
Spoiler:
In the last mission Bei shows you the events that took place at the end of AoA in Delta Serpentis. However, you hear the Vishnans and Shivans having a different discussion then the one you heard in AoA. Is Bei and Laporte hearing two separate things? How did Bei find Laporte In the crazy acid trip dreamland. Did the Vishnans help him find and connect to her?

Spoiler:
I assume that because of the nature of the Shivans and Vishnans, they communicated enough information in that conversation to fill entire human libraries, and we're getting a summary that's dumbed-down for us. It is important to note that we're hearing what they want us to hear. And since Laporte and Bei were seeing two different things (Bei did not see the ships from Universal Truth or the Vishnan ships), it's likely that Laporte heard a different facet to their conversation as well- a facet the Shivans wanted her to hear.

[edit] one more question why do you guys have such epic taste in music :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on January 09, 2013, 02:42:51 am
Playing through now. Dear Lord, this is amazing. You guys went for the creative angle and you nailed it.

I do agree there's a bit of an information overload at times: you give many options, and that's good, but it's certainly more infodumping than most players are used to for a briefing.

Haven't played through the whole thing just yet... it's getting late here, and if I don't stop playing now, I'll never get to sleep tonight. So far, my verdict is excellent work! :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gloriano on January 09, 2013, 03:12:02 am
I just finished Act 3 and to be honest it felt like a acid trip to galaxy and back in a good way really enjoyed the diffrent mechanics  :yes:

I just hope we don't have to wait too long for the Act 4-5 since this was also such a big tease.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shivan Hunter on January 09, 2013, 05:19:28 am
For anyone who wants an alternative method to download the gargantuan BP-Complete.exe, some of us on the #bp channel put together a torrent file: https://www.box.com/s/6ojtm99zubx8rbemvcz1

I'm almost certain that it may work in some circumstances, but my upload speed is absolute crap, so if some of you who already have BP-Complete could add it and start seeding, that would be greaaaat...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 09, 2013, 06:51:59 am
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.

Spoiler:
Say what? I tried it three times, the first time everything went wrong from the start, the first barrage hit me, then I decided to duke it out with the Morena, using flares, didn't work, the asteroid warped out...BAM.
Second try: Way better, switched to antifighter missiles, and killed the torpedo launchers, disabled the reactor casings, the engine, and then went for the killing blow, downside: Called in the transport too late.
Third try: Same as above, but I just killed the launchers, the engine, then the reactor shields.
Called the transport, used the afterburner boost, killed the remaining sentry guns and yeahha, saved the day and the GEF :)
And thats my damn problem, I want to be the good guy, not an ice cold killer...-.-
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on January 09, 2013, 07:33:52 am
Jesus Christ. I am doing something terribly wrong. Can't seem to find a way to beat the damn Asteroid mission.

Given the stakes, collateral damage is acceptable.
Spoiler:
Use your shield boost, flares, and MHD thrusters to get past the Morena and her fighters. Dive into the asteroid via the entry point. Destroy the reactor. Escape and evade.

Spoiler:
Say what? I tried it three times, the first time everything went wrong from the start, the first barrage hit me, then I decided to duke it out with the Morena, using flares, didn't work, the asteroid warped out...BAM.
Second try: Way better, switched to antifighter missiles, and killed the torpedo launchers, disabled the reactor casings, the engine, and then went for the killing blow, downside: Called in the transport too late.
Third try: Same as above, but I just killed the launchers, the engine, then the reactor shields.
Called the transport, used the afterburner boost, killed the remaining sentry guns and yeahha, saved the day and the GEF :)
And thats my damn problem, I want to be the good guy, not an ice cold killer...-.-

Spoiler:
Forget the transport. Kill the Morena's reactor casing, then the reactor. Then kill the GEF command habitat. Then fly inside and kill the reactor. Finally, kill the last remaining Uly. Liberal use of the capship countermeasures, afterburner boost and at least one hit of the hull fixer got me through, though time was a little short towards the end.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Azrael15 on January 09, 2013, 07:39:18 am
Final mission spoilers:
Spoiler:
So, what's with the Transcend, Sync and Vassago references? The Transcendent seems to appear during the mission and, if you turn and look instead of running away, you get a debriefing that relates to the Transcend campaign.
Are these easter eggs, or is there some sort of big, huge intertwining plot going on?

I want to go back to that final mission and see what else I missed - but it's quite long!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rodo on January 09, 2013, 07:40:39 am
You can save them all, if I could you can!
Spoiler:
My transport docked with the habitat 30 seconds to carnage, the counter went 0 as a I watched in agony expecting for news from the infiltrating forces, a good 30 seconds after the countdown reached 0 I got the good news, the world was saved and all GeF scum as well.
So go miss Laporte, GO!

Edit: ups.. sorry.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Eratharon on January 09, 2013, 08:34:37 am
Well, I finished it. It is a spectacular piece in the middle of War in Heaven.

Spoiler:
I don't really want to write about spoilery things but better safe than sorry.
I liked the "downtime" between missions and the new weapons, they were very powerful (shotgun point blank = space dust). Although I didn't really use the other addons like the repair system at all. The capital mission was the most enjoyable mission for me especially because I didn't fly a BIG capital ship but a smaller one. The missions were of moderate difficulty and very enjoyable. At first it was information overload but after filtering what I needed the most I could read the dialogues too. As expected there are tons of dialogue but with Blue Planet that's a given.

I also have to praise you because of the game's performance with BP models because when WiH came out it was choppy like hell but now it's much much better although there are a few slowdowns here and there. Particularly with the in-system gates. In the Dreamscape when I turned there the game always slowed down. Not choppy slow but like 0.50 speed slow.

Last I would like to ask:
1. Is there any chance I could get info on which choises are canon or will they have lasting consequences on Act 4-5?
Personally I blew up the gefs - Captured the asteroid base and killed every ship - Spared the Chartage
2. To get the full ending what do I have to do in the last mission? I probed all the shivan nodes until 3 were Complete and 1 was Interrupted. In the GTVA convoy section there are nodes some of which have portal inside them some of them don't and some turn red. It's not really easy dodging thos dastardly Vishnan fighters and seeing to the nodes.
3. Will you release Act 4-5 together or alone?
4. Does Laporte die if I choose not to bail out of the Dreamscape?

So that is all for the moment but if something comes to mind I'll write again.
Good Job on Act 3, keep up the good work and Thank You all very much for the fantastic experience so far.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 09, 2013, 08:56:58 am
You can save them all, if I could you can!
Spoiler:
My transport docked with the habitat 30 seconds to carnage, the counter went 0 as a I watched in agony expecting for news from the infiltrating forces, a good 30 seconds after the countdown reached 0 I got the good news, the world was saved and all GeF scum as well.
So go miss Laporte, GO!


Fixed :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 09, 2013, 08:59:02 am
Definitely avoids "Underwhelming Middle Act Syndrome". Act 3 is many things. Underwhelming isn't one of them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 09, 2013, 10:54:32 am
!!! Possible spoilers in this post !!!

I forego spoiler tags, however, as I don't like them. If you want to play it safe, skip this post!

But in contrast prior campaigns, I am simply feeling overwhelming with the sheer amount of STUFF I am being told to do. I felt, well, justifiably pissed off when the mission briefer snarked, "Oh, do you need to take notes?" I'm sorry, but I don't feel that is good game design. I am sure many vets will oogle over the sheer amount of stuff you can DO in each mission, but the main point has to come back to, "is it fun?"

The FREDDING is amazing, the graphics are amazing, the story is amazing. But from where I am right now, the campaign just isn't FUN. It feels like a chore.
Yes, that is what I think about this act, too. Perhaps I'm gonna change my mind if I get to know these missions better in the future, but at this point I hav e to say I'm very much disappointed.

From a FREDding point of view this campaign is, again, a masterpiece. Anyone denying this is either a complete fool or has never used FRED or both. You can see huge loads of work put into this in any single mission. When playing this, you can constantly see why it took years to make this.

Unfortunately Tenebra lacks of good gameplay. Or let's rather way: Gameplay one expects from a space combat simulation. The first combat mission was okay. It is a rather classic mission with cool new features. I liked that. But all the other missions are more like pressing buttons rather than doing anything else. And that, at some points, was really, really annoying me.

Let's begin with Everything is Permitted. This mission already suffered from information overload in my opinion. Maybe it's because I'm a non-native speaker or I'm just exceedingly stupid, but in my first tryout I didn't understand at all what's going on. Well, I then tried to kill the target with a Mjolnir. Unfortunately, I never found out what button to press to get the sentry gun fire its beam. This is probably because I had to play on a 1024x768 resolution so not all of the HUD was displayed, it doesn't matter anyway. The mission failed to tell me what button press and that is, I'm deeply sorry, bad design. Again, maybe I'm just stupid and again terribly oversaw something there. Anyway, in the end I used cheats to beat this one, because at some point I was just sick sitting there trying to find out which button to press now.
And this is really, really sorry, because overall I liked this mission. Great stealth feeling!! That is how a cover assassination mission is supposed to look like.

Then the Gef mission. It is cool to fly a capital ship for a change, nice new tools there but in the end it was just about flying into that huge asteroid, kill the reactor, get out again and kill the enemy mother ship if you like. Nothing special about that. To be honest, I liked The Blade Itself at lot more. This would have been a lot more fun if you would've led a few fighter wings in there. Would have been a great opportunity to fly the Lao'tse fighter, I think. New toys and features are cool to support story telling and improve mission design. Here they replace mission design in my eyes.

Now for Her Finest Hour. Oh my god, am I disappointed. This mission is NOTHING than pressing buttons. Again a basically great idea and great design, but absolutely destroyed by total overload of information, new functions and new features. I think I tried this mission 15 times or so didn't beat it properly. In the end, I used cheats to beat it. I later tried it with Battuta's tips. It works rather well this way. But what does this tell you about the mission design if you can only beat it when the campaign maker tells you how to do it? Before I read Battuta's post I didn't even realize you can call in the Toutatis into the mission. Also, the artiellery ships stop firing at some point. Why is that? Maybe I would've beaten the mission if they wouldn't do that.
Overall I am having the impression that you need perfect timing and a huge amount of previous knowledge to beat this mission. In Acts 1 and 2 you had a lot of missions where you needed perfect timing to achieve secondary and bonus goals, for example safe those cruisers in Aristeia, but most of the missions could be done quite easily in the first try.

The last combat mission is... well, you know the drill: Cool basic idea, screwed up by pressing buttons orgy. I really don't understand why you introduced that clumsy interface here to place the turrets. Why not just let the player select a platform on which he or she wants to put a turret and press buttons 1 through 4. 1 standing for mass driver, 2 standing for missile launchers, 3 standing for flak turret, 4 standing for rapid-fire plasma turret, for example. This would have been an easy and effective way to upgrade a classic mission design for something new and cool. Instead you put HUGE amounts of work into there to have a clumsy new interface that totally distracts you from the battle and has nothing to do with space combat.

I don't know what these critics you meantion earlier, Battuta, expect when they play a Freespace 2 campaign. I think Freespace 2 is a space combat simulation and in a space combat simulation I want to take my fighter into dogfight to contest other craft and warships. Not just open up building interfaces and place turrets or just select targets for capship turrets. If I want to build turrets and commandeer warships around I go play Star Trek Armada Fleet Operations or Starcraft 2 or what.

I understand and appreciate your efforts to make covert ops mission feel different from what you saw in Acts 1 and 2. Basically, this worked perfectly. You have cool new ideas for cool new features, but you use way to much of this at the cost a game fun and streamlined  mission design. That leads to another weak point in this act: Most of the story is not put forward in actual missions, but only in that dreamscape (which again was a cool idea which you spent a lot of time on) and the last mission, which was too long for my taste, by the way. You probably might want to split this into two, but I'm getting distracted.

Let me point that out in greater depth by using an example from Act 2. In Aristeia you first experience an epic and cool mission which shows advanced FREDding and uses new features (beam inhibitor, credits to force play to choose which reinforcements to call in, new music) to improve story telling and gameplay. The player is facing a cool gameplay experience here and at the end the main story is driven forward in a in-game dialogue.
In Act 3 you have that Gef mission, for example, in which there is not very much happening, except that you destroy one or two greater targets and, perhaps, two fighter wings. And before and after that mission you are in the dreamscape where there is also nothing happening except flying around and talk to other ships for seven to ten minutes. It is really good that you can skip this, which I did once. Because this is really boring after the second time, even though you might get interesting information; then again it is not important information, because then you shouldn't be able to skip it just like that. Anyway, if I want to just sit there and read text I go reading a book.

I hope I could make my point clear in this grantetly long review. I really appreciate and deeply respect the efforts you put into this. As a FREDder I'm just jealous of what you accomplished. As a player, however, I remain quite disappointed at this point, though I'm still looking forward to see more BP in the future. I hope that Acts 4 and 5 come out soon with new features used more deliberately. :)

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 11:08:56 am
Quote
I later tried it with Battuta's tips. It works rather well this way. But what does this tell you about the mission design if you can only beat it when the campaign maker tells you how to do it?

Nothing at all, these missions were playtested pretty extensively. We verified that people could accomplish them with only the information they had in-game. (I didn't even tell you anything you can't read directly off the screen, right above the center of the HUD).

I totally accept your criticism and think it's valid. But bear in mind that people value different things in what they play. We made the decision to move to a very systems-heavy approach to this act because we thought it was important to push the limits. We understand we're going to lose some people with missions like Her Finest Hour, simply because it steps away from what they value and enjoy (not to mention being a performance monster). But at the same time, we also gain something - Her Finest Hour is probably one of the most diverse, replayable missions in community history, and that's why people have so much fun with it. Everybody comes up with a different strategy.

Design decisions always come at a price. There's no reason you should feel bad about not enjoying this act - it wasn't for you, it wasn't what you want. But the same things that brought it down for you are the strengths other people really appreciate.

(I still die constantly on m19 though)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 09, 2013, 11:36:08 am
But bear in mind that people value different things in what they play. We made the decision to move to a very systems-heavy approach to this act because we thought it was important to push the limits. We understand we're going to lose some people with missions like Her Finest Hour, simply because it steps away from what they value and enjoy (not to mention being a performance monster). But at the same time, we also gain something - Her Finest Hour is probably one of the most diverse, replayable missions in community history, and that's why people have so much fun with it. Everybody comes up with a different strategy.

Design decisions always come at a price. There's no reason you should feel bad about not enjoying this act - it wasn't for you, it wasn't what you want. But the same things that brought it down for you are the strengths other people really appreciate.
I always kept that in mind, don't worry. :) I am aware of the fact that this act just makes up five missions out of 30 or probably more in the finished campaign. I can live with that. Acts 1 and 2 don't become less enjoyable to me because of this, after all.

What I forgot to say: It might have been a better idea if you would've made Her Finest Hour the mission where you fly the gunboat. This would've fit the tactical commander role a lot more, in my humble opinion. One could also make cool sniper actions with the mass driver. Perhaps a possible design idea for the future. There are a lot Tev destroyers to kill. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 09, 2013, 12:20:18 pm
if I want to just sit there and read text I go reading a book.
And this is why we can't have nice things :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 12:25:08 pm
No, it's a totally valid criticism of a game. Games are about agency and interaction - passive text reception isn't gonna be fun for everyone.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 09, 2013, 12:32:08 pm
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I strongly believe that storytelling is the primary component of a game. Otherwise you only have an empty shell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 09, 2013, 12:33:23 pm
Tetris is fun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 09, 2013, 12:35:33 pm
Tetris being fun doesn't make it any less of an empty shell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 09, 2013, 12:42:57 pm
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I strongly believe that storytelling is the primary component of a game. Otherwise you only have an empty shell.
I completely agree.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 12:44:48 pm
I agree too, but I think that storytelling has to occur through mechanisms other than simply reading exposition and dialogue - it has to be embedded in the visuals, the story, the level design, the very gameplay actions themselves.

This actually brings me back around to something interesting about SF-Junky's feedback. The very reason we wanted to design Act 3 the way we did was because of storytelling.

Acts 1 and 2 of War in Heaven succeeded in part because they established a new set of rules for warfare in FreeSpace - subspace speed chess, the 'fleet in being', the idea of this whole big strategic picture that made each mission make sense. You knew why the GTVA didn't just jump all their ships right to Earth. You knew why those bombers jumped in at 4 kilometers instead of 1. It was a set of rules to explain away the inconsistencies and nonsense of FreeSpace strategy and tactics.

But those rules were usually window dressing to help the mission work. In Act 3 we wanted to let the player access those rules on the gameplay level. Now you would be the one calling in ships from off screen, deciding how many could be risked. Now you would carry out the
Spoiler:
surprise assassination mid-dialogue.
Ken wouldn't come to you to give you story; you would go to him and take it from him.

Act 3 is all about the player seizing control. That control turns out to be pretty overwhelming for a lot of players - but hopefully it at least makes sense why we did it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 09, 2013, 12:54:36 pm
but I think that storytelling has to occur through mechanisms other than simply reading exposition and dialogue - it has to be embedded in the visuals, the story, the level design, the very gameplay actions themselves.
And I believe those are only icing on the cake. Storytelling is core, whether it's given to you "smoothly" or not. Mass Effect's Codex doesn't prevent you to enjoy the complexity of its universe, for example.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 09, 2013, 03:08:38 pm
No spoiler tags, but this post concerns Her finest hour.
I managed the mission and, geeze, a good one.
But: I ordered the assault to begin while the two Deimos Corvettes where still in the field, but I had achieved every goal apart from the Carthage, so I ordered my forces in, disabled the ship and ordered my "fleet" to jump out.
Tip: You should allow the gunships to jump out too.
What is with "Declare Rearm"? Have I missed something?
But the biggest point: I realy wanted to avoid casualties, so as soon as the Carthage was disabled, I ordered my ships to jump out and I'm sure I don't lost "thirty spaceframes" like the debriefing told me...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: DrewToby on January 09, 2013, 04:48:41 pm
Act 3 is all about the player seizing control. That control turns out to be pretty overwhelming for a lot of players - but hopefully it at least makes sense why we did it.

Ultimately this is my favorite aspect of Act 3. Acts 1 and 2 evoked an incredible, borderline nihilist, powerlessness on behalf of the player. You could fly as sharply as possible, but that wasn't going to save your squad in the end. R1 took the traditional Freespace formula to the extreme. But now Act 3 completely subverts that, and the player takes on the roll of command. I joined only the battles I had to, and otherwise sat on the edges and ordered my squads around. The feeling of power and control was beautifully crafted, particularly after the total reaming the player goes through during most of R1. It's clear how well you guys understood this, especially with the Carthage. I don't think I've had a single more satisfying mission in FreeSpace -- except killing the Lucifer in AoA, maybe.

That said, I do agree that the feature creep got distracting, particularly when certain things didn't line up. Like Crizza, I don't know what the 'declare rearm' command does in "Her Finest Hour," and I also had no idea you could call up the Toutatis -- though I swear I never had the option at all, so perhaps I bugged it somehow. Same with the Tower Defense mission, I couldn't place repair or sensor towers. I was playing on Easy, so if the towers are difficulty-restricted, that would explain things.

As a proof of concept I think R2 did amazingly well. But that's also what it often felt like; it reminded me a lot of Assassin's Creed 1. A stunning technical display in an amazing world that, along the line, decided to try too much at once and turned shallow, rather than refining itself to a unified and polished experience. That said, BP is still my favorite mod and the only reason I have FreeSpace still installed -- and I love Assassin's Creed too, so the constant references to it were delighting.

And the music is absolutely phenomenal. That dreamscape song, I think that's my new study music.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on January 09, 2013, 04:55:04 pm
You are all using the term 'Feature creep' wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 09, 2013, 04:56:16 pm
Okay, I've got a problem in the mission after Her Finest Hour (don't remember the name and don't want to spoil it by giving a description). I was able to play it yesterday, but it took forever to load. Today, it took a long time to load, but I never got to the briefing screen because it crashed and said "Antipodes has stopped working." I've attached a debug log.

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Suongadon on January 09, 2013, 05:33:50 pm
Like Crizza, I don't know what the 'declare rearm' command does in "Her Finest Hour," and I also had no idea you could call up the Toutatis -- though I swear I never had the option at all, so perhaps I bugged it somehow.

I think 'declare rearm' tells your wingmen to go for repairs, and the Toutatis is only an option if one of the artillery frigates has to withdraw.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 05:41:57 pm
'Declare rearm' is a bad feature that should've been cut.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on January 09, 2013, 05:42:23 pm
Same with the Tower Defense mission, I couldn't place repair or sensor towers. I was playing on Easy, so if the towers are difficulty-restricted, that would explain things.

The sensor/repair modules are on the second tab during that mission. You use the Up/Down arrows to select the type of turret, and Left/Right arrows to switch between the weapons tab (gauss, flak, missile) and the support tab (sensors, repair drone).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on January 09, 2013, 06:01:55 pm
So I just in Dreamscape and...
Spoiler:
I just found the "Fire To ROCK OUT!" Super Cool! Just had to hop on the forums to say that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Venicius on January 09, 2013, 06:22:11 pm
Hoping my computer can handle this release...but this is what I got after downloading today.

Code: [Select]
IBX: Safety Check Failure!  The file doesn't contain enough data, deleting 'corvette3t-01.bx'

ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 239 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 194 bytes
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 06:27:21 pm
Why are you running a debug build?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 09, 2013, 06:29:24 pm
Spoilers (I wouldn't want to accidentally read this four days ago)

To make a more rational less rant-like analysis of the Carthage mission:

I'll at some point be trying those tips of battutas, but how was I supposed to know to do that?  Its not like I had any kind of education on how to command a major fleet action in that canon.  I have commanded successful fleet battles in other games before (in first person no less, with much worse UI) but I somewhat knew what I was doing there.  In the Carthage mission I felt like I was thrown into the cockpit of an F-16 mid-flight without any explanation or training and told to 'destroy the russian aircraft carrier and RTB' or something.  I could probably find the stick and rotate the craft a bit before I inevitably screwed up and died, but that isn't exactly ideal.  If the game had at least given me some practice or something that would have been a huge help.  As it was things more or less scaled up as so;

>command a squad with people telling you what to do
>operate a ship with a basic plan given to you and with freaking nuclear missiles at your direct disposal
>3RD FLEET JRF ATTACKING NEPTUNE WORK IT OUT PILOT YOU ARE IN COMMAND NOW

Anyhow, to add a bit of variety to this post I had a HUGE amount of fun in the GEF asteroid mission, good grief that was awesome.

>enter asteroid
>destroy asteroid subspace drive
>asteroid will apparently still be able to jump
>call in transports on my way out
>they die before i get out of the asteroid
>:mad:
>immediate 180, nuke reactor
>flee
>asteroid colony explodes in nuclear fire
>GEF destroyer is still intact
>destroy destroyer in epic battle
>fyeah.jpg (http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/001/987/fyeah.jpg)

e: modified asteroid mission description
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 06:33:39 pm
Spoilers (I wouldn't want to accidentally read this four days ago)

To make a more rational less rant-like analysis of the Carthage mission:

I'll at some point be trying those tips of battutas, but how was I supposed to know to do that?

I'm worried about a bug here - are you guys not seeing the little gauge right above your main flight controller that gives you tips on what would be a good next step?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on January 09, 2013, 06:37:18 pm
I think sort of a problem with it is it would show up while I'm halfway through doing something else.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 09, 2013, 06:40:02 pm
Basically yeah.  That or it was too vague when I was in sync with it.  For instance 'protect the serenity' or whatever isn't the same as 'protect serenity from bombers (that you probably didnt notice at this range)'.

e: After I realized they were there I still never figured out they were dealing the majority of the damage.

e2: vagueness partially removed
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on January 09, 2013, 06:41:31 pm
Well, I just finished it. Maybe I'm just suited to this style of play because I didn't find any of the missions too tricky (except "Her Finest Hour", but that was due to me being an idiot and not due to mission design). Each mission was new and mostly well-designed (the tower defense mission was kind of weak and the turrets didn't activate half the time (YES I PRESSED "2"!)).

The story is the strong point here, and on that note: EXCELLENT! I am loving this, keep it up! I'm going to have to replay that final mission a number of times to properly absorb all the Mind Screw but it was a hell of a ride!

If I were to offer any criticism, it goes along the "too many features" line we've seen repeated. As I said, I didn't find things too tricky, but I did have to work to keep up with all the OPTIONS! that are presented. So my suggestion would be to strike a balance between this and the original WiH release. These new missions were cool, but give us some good old "kill stuff straightforwardly" missions in between them. I realize that approach doesn't really fit with the story of this Act, but it is my suggestion for Acts 4 and 5.

On the whole, excellent work, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys have in store next.

One last question: is War in Heaven going to complete the Blue Planet storyline or is there a "Blue Planet 3" coming once Act 5 is done?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 09, 2013, 06:45:36 pm
It took me several tries, but after I get the hang with the Mjolnirs...easy and forgiving, apart from the losses I cannot figure how they come to happen.
And right know I want to eat my keyboard 'cause I moved to the next mission, but I know I can do better than loosing 30 god damn spaceframes, which, IMHO jumped out and don't got destroyed...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 09, 2013, 06:47:50 pm
I can answer your last question, at least.  Blue Planet: War in Heaven is BP2.  All of War in Heaven is BP2.  There will be the conclusion to BP, BP3 (name unknown, or at least I don't remember) after War in Heaven (all five acts).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 06:50:15 pm
I think there's something screwed up with the casualty counter in Her Finest Hour. Not sure what as the SEXPs seem pretty robust!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 09, 2013, 06:52:30 pm
I think there's something screwed up with the casualty counter in Her Finest Hour. Not sure what as the SEXPs seem pretty robust!

I suspect their might be, I'm relatively sure the
Spoiler:
majority of my reinforcement airwings warped out safely after we disabled the Carthage, as I left the two Naryanas to plink away at the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 09, 2013, 06:58:53 pm
I think there's something screwed up with the casualty counter in Her Finest Hour. Not sure what as the SEXPs seem pretty robust!

I suspect their might be, I'm relatively sure the
Spoiler:
majority of my reinforcement airwings warped out safely after we disabled the Carthage, as I left the two Naryanas to plink away at the Carthage.
Just what I did...will try to call in the stealth fighter to neutralize as much turrets as possible before starting the main assault.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: aledeth on January 09, 2013, 08:28:46 pm
Something that I noticed after retrying Her Finest Hour again and again to bring down the casualty count, is that the "Number of Units on Station" would be arbitrarily high. On my last try before I gave up and accepted the poor performance, I had something like 71 Units on Station before I called in any reinforcements at all. I'm guessing that certain reinforcements aren't having their unit count decreased or something, because despite my performance becoming more and more flawless each mission, after my 2nd try last night I never got below catastrophic losses.

And this is after I killed EVERYTHING but the Carthage, bring in bombers and gunships to nuke the engines, have them leave immediately and let the Artillery finish the job.

Also, question for the Devs: Is it possible to bring in the Toutatis, get ambushed by Serkr, but turn the ambush around and destroy Serkr instead? Or are they coded to not die in that mission?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on January 09, 2013, 08:33:11 pm
Yeah, I was told Toutatis airwing losses were effectively total, which definitely wasn't true. As for the Neptune mission, I took many, many attempts to beat it - real PITA, primarily I think because I kept missing the significance of positioning myself under the Carthage. In a non VAed campaign, that needs to be emphasized by more than a single line among the dozens and dozens in the mission.

Also, did I hit a bug in the refinery mission, or is it just really short? I deployed all my guns, killed the scouts, and then the mission was successfully over before I even had a chance to kill or disarm the gunship, probably around a minute after they warped in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 09, 2013, 08:36:07 pm
Whoa-ho what
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 09, 2013, 09:37:38 pm
I can answer your last question, at least.  Blue Planet: War in Heaven is BP2.  All of War in Heaven is BP2.  There will be the conclusion to BP, BP3 (name unknown, or at least I don't remember) after War in Heaven (all five acts).

That wait is going to be pure murder. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 10, 2013, 12:12:49 am
Right, I got over my mission difficulty angst and completed the Carthage mission to spec, and all I have to say is sweet ape-testicles that campaign was awesome.  Those last missions were bloody amazing.  My apologies for being a little aggressive with the criticism, I was rather upset at the time.  This was quite awesome on the whole though now that I have played through it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 10, 2013, 06:35:13 am
We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I strongly believe that storytelling is the primary component of a game. Otherwise you only have an empty shell.
I completely agree.

What. That is insane. Chess, ****ing chess, doesn't have any story to it. Mario is incredibly fun and no one gives a damn about its "story".

Yes, "storytelling" is very very compelling in BP and many other games. But those kinds of generalities are not... ahhh... smart.

(And I could argue it's not about storytelling at all, but mostly about drama)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 10, 2013, 07:21:55 am
Quote
Mario is incredibly fun and no one gives a damn about its "story".
This might be your opinion, but I think Mario games are overrated piles of crap.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 10, 2013, 09:01:47 am
Tell me what's the story behind Quakelive, Soccer, Table Football, Monopoly, Poker, RPG deck games etc.,etc.

Come on, that statement was utterly asinine and insane.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 10, 2013, 09:14:07 am
Those are all empty shells. What's your point ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 10, 2013, 09:16:29 am
Guys, let us please take a step back here.

Video games can be defined through the interplay of story, gameplay, graphics and sound.
Due to the versatility of this medium, we do not need all, or even a majority of these components to make a good game; some games omit stories alltogether for pure gameplay; others use the gameplay to tell a story (see for example: XCOM).

Now, some people look for stories when they're looking for games to play. Others have different priorities. The only thing that is dumb here is you guys calling each other dumb over the others' preferences; kindly stop it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Damage on January 10, 2013, 09:59:21 am
Also, did I hit a bug in the refinery mission, or is it just really short? I deployed all my guns, killed the scouts, and then the mission was successfully over before I even had a chance to kill or disarm the gunship, probably around a minute after they warped in.

I ran into this too, on my 2nd attempt for the platform mission.  Haven't had it repeat though.  An aside, I've run into several random graphics glitches here and there throughout since I downloaded BPComplete.  The really weird thing, thanks to campaigns like Transcend and now WiH Tenebra, I'm not sure which ones are legit glitches, which ones are scripted events, and which ones are just me not getting enough sleep.  Thank you for screwing with my head. :lol:

No seriously, thanks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Venicius on January 10, 2013, 12:27:00 pm
Consistently get crashes, here's my log...Hopefully it's not indicative of needing a new computer right now!

[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2013, 12:28:43 pm
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.6.17.9481
Passed cmdline options:
  -spec_point 0.3
  -missile_lighting
  -nomotiondebris
  -3dshockwave
  -shadow_quality 0,-spec_point 0.3
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -window
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4d6319c8
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x4f978a6b
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x64e738b9
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xbaa4dbd6
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x9689af32
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\adv-bp.vp' with a checksum of 0x670cbd97
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x58f866a1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x213dcdf3
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe5b684cd
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x1604e6d1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0xcb7237b9
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x7c9d7e74
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\Root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 4 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' ... 33 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 243 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 92 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 682 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2480 files
Searching root 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 5 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\adv-bp.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 47 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1561 files
Searching root 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\' ... 5 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\Root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 31 roots and 17497 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".

  Sample rate: 44100 (44100)
  EFX version: 1.0
  Max auxiliary sends: 1
  Playback device: Generic Software on Speakers (2- High Definition Audio Device)
  Capture device: Microphone (3- Blue Snowflake)
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1600x900 with 16-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 5, G: 6, B: 5, depth: 16, stencil: 1, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor    : Intel
  OpenGL Renderer  : Intel 965/963 Graphics Media Accelerator
  OpenGL Version   : 2.0.0 - Build 8.14.10.1930

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ATI_shader_texture_lod".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ARB_texture_float".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex".
  Unable to find extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_blit".
  Unable to find extension "GL_EXT_geometry_shader4".
  Unable to find extension "GL_EXT_texture_array".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  No hardware support for shadow mapping. Shadows will be disabled.
  Max texture units: 8 (2)
  Max elements vertices: 1024
  Max elements indices: 1024
  Max texture size: 2048x2048
  Max render buffer size: 2048x2048
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: NO
  Using trilinear texture filter.
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
Game Settings Table: Using Standard Loops For SEXP Arguments
Game Settings Table: Using standard event chaining behavior
Game Settings Table: External shaders are DISABLED
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-turretHotkey-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-equip-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 36, 'l_hit.wav'...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 37, 'm_hit.wav'...
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TABLES => Starting parse of 'colors.tbl'...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
Warning: "$perform less checks for death screams" flag is deprecated in favor of "$perform fewer checks for death screams"
Warning: "$allow primary link delay" flag is deprecated in favor of "$allow primary link at mission start"
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp50.eff) with 92 frames at 30 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
Ignoring free flight speed for weapon 'Trebuchet#Aegis'
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-shp.tbm' ...
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
The "primary_bank" animation type name is deprecated.  Specify "primary-bank" instead.
Particle effect for impact spew disabled on ship 'Moon Landscape'.
Particle effect for damage spew disabled on ship 'Moon Landscape'.
Particle effect for impact spew disabled on ship 'The GRID'.
Particle effect for damage spew disabled on ship 'The GRID'.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-hdg.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_root-hdg.tbm' ...
ANI support1 with size 108x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI damage1 with size 148x25 (21.9% wasted)
ANI wingman1 with size 71x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman2 with size 35x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI wingman3 with size 14x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI toggle1 with size 57x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI head1 with size 164x132 (48.4% wasted)
ANI weapons1 with size 126x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI weapons1_b with size 150x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI objective1 with size 149x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI energy1 with size 12x41 (35.9% wasted)
ANI targetview1 with size 137x156 (39.1% wasted)
ANI targetview2 with size 4x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targetview3 with size 7x20 (37.5% wasted)
ANI 2_radar1 with size 209x170 (33.6% wasted)
ANI 2_energy2 with size 86x96 (25.0% wasted)
ANI 2_reticle1 with size 40x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI targhit1 with size 31x21 (34.4% wasted)
ANI 2_leftarc with size 103x252 (1.6% wasted)
ANI 2_rightarc1 with size 103x252 (1.6% wasted)
ANI 2_toparc2 with size 35x24 (25.0% wasted)
ANI 2_toparc3 with size 41x29 (9.4% wasted)
ANI netlag1 with size 29x30 (6.3% wasted)
ANI 2_lead1 with size 26x26 (18.8% wasted)
ANI 2_lock1 with size 56x53 (17.2% wasted)
ANI 2_lockspin with size 100x100 (21.9% wasted)
ANI time1 with size 47x23 (28.1% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (BPstealthgauge.eff) with 3 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (viewfinder.eff) with 1 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (BPsignalgaugetop.eff) with 1 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (BPsignalgauge.eff) with 11 frames at 30 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-str.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-str.tbm' ...
loading animated cursor "cursor"
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-main-hall.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-main-hall.tbm' ...
MediaVPs: Flaming debris script loaded!
MediaVPs: Explosions script loaded!
Ships.tbl is : VALID
Weapons.tbl is : VALID
cfile_init() took 549
VIDEO: No shader support and hd video is beeing played this can get choppy.Got event GS_EVENT_GAME_INIT (49) in state NOT A VALID STATE (0)
PLR => Verifying 'Hunter.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Verifying complete!
PLR => Verifying 'Hunterr.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Verifying complete!
PLR => Verifying 'Test.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Verifying complete!
Got event GS_EVENT_MAIN_MENU (0) in state GS_STATE_INITIAL_PLAYER_SELECT (37)
PLR => Loading 'Test.plr' with version 0...
PLR => Parsing:  Flags...
PLR => Parsing:  Info...
PLR => Parsing:  Scoring...
PLR => Parsing:  ScoringMulti...
PLR => Parsing:  HUD...
PLR => Parsing:  Variables...
PLR => Parsing:  Multiplayer...
PLR => Parsing:  Controls...
PLR => Parsing:  Settings...
PLR => Loading complete!
CSG => Loading 'Test.bp2-p2.csg' with version 0...
CSG => Parsing:  Flags...
CSG => Parsing:  Info...
CSG => Parsing:  Missions...
CSG => Parsing:  Techroom...
CSG => Parsing:  Loadout...
CSG => Parsing:  Scoring...
CSG => Parsing:  RedAlert...
CSG => Parsing:  HUD...
CSG => Parsing:  Variables...
CSG => Parsing:  Settings...
CSG => Parsing:  Controls...
CSG => Parsing:  Cutscenes...
CSG => Loading complete!
CSG => Loading 'Test.bp2-p2.csg' with version 0...
CSG => Parsing:  Flags...
CSG => Parsing:  Info...
CSG => Parsing:  Missions...
CSG => Parsing:  Techroom...
CSG => Parsing:  Loadout...
CSG => Parsing:  Scoring...
CSG => Parsing:  RedAlert...
CSG => Parsing:  HUD...
CSG => Parsing:  Variables...
CSG => Parsing:  Settings...
CSG => Parsing:  Controls...
CSG => Parsing:  Cutscenes...
CSG => Loading complete!
Frame  0 too long!!: frametime = 0.548 (0.548)
Got event GS_EVENT_NEW_CAMPAIGN (26) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
CSG => Loading 'Test.bp2-p2.csg' with version 0...
CSG => Parsing:  Flags...
CSG => Parsing:  Info...
CSG => Parsing:  Missions...
CSG => Parsing:  Techroom...
CSG => Parsing:  Loadout...
CSG => Parsing:  Scoring...
CSG => Parsing:  RedAlert...
CSG => Parsing:  HUD...
CSG => Parsing:  Variables...
CSG => Parsing:  Settings...
CSG => Parsing:  Controls...
CSG => Parsing:  Cutscenes...
CSG => Loading complete!
Got event GS_EVENT_START_GAME (1) in state GS_STATE_MAIN_MENU (1)
=================== STARTING LEVEL LOAD ==================
Someone passed an extension to bm_load for file '2_LoadingBGM00.png'
BMPMAN: Found EFF (2_Loading.eff) with 14 frames at 15 fps.
Starting model page in...
Beginning level bitmap paging...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (particleexp01.eff) with 10 frames at 8 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (particlesmoke01.eff) with 54 frames at 15 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (particlesmoke02.eff) with 39 frames at 24 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-fbl.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (WarpMap01.eff) with 30 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (WarpMap02.eff) with 30 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Rock_Exp.eff) with 55 frames at 30 fps.
Loading warp model
Loading model 'warp.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'warp.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xbf802ad0, IBX checksum: 0xe7aa5a55 -- "warp.pof"
 300
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shieldhit01a.eff) with 23 frames at 21 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shieldhit02a.eff) with 45 frames at 30 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shieldhit03a.eff) with 22 frames at 30 fps.
SHOCKWAVE =>  Loading default shockwave model...
Loading model 'shockwave.pof'
BMPMAN: Found EFF (shockwave3d-glow.eff) with 159 frames at 24 fps.
Model shockwave.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'shockwave.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xa85bec39, IBX checksum: 0x9af155c2 -- "shockwave.pof"
SHOCKWAVE =>  Default model load: SUCCEEDED!!
MISSION LOAD: 'bp2-17.fs2'
Hmmm... Extension passed to mission_load...
Loading model 'europa.pof'
Model europa.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'europa.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x401bf33d, IBX checksum: 0xaeae6faf -- "europa.pof"
Loading model 'neptunebox1.pof'
Model neptunebox1.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'neptunebox1.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xa6a09646, IBX checksum: 0xfa108ab2 -- "neptunebox1.pof"
Loading model 'saturn-htsb.pof'
Model saturn-htsb.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'saturn-htsb.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x5fc3bab7, IBX checksum: 0x430c4182 -- "saturn-htsb.pof"
Loading model 'sunbox.pof'
Model sunbox.pof has a null moment of inertia!  (This is only a problem if the model is a ship.)
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'sunbox.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xfc4060d7, IBX checksum: 0x32deae8c -- "sunbox.pof"
Starting mission message count : 294
Ending mission message count : 294
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_set_soundtrack
Loading model 'Wraith.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'poddoorf', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'armcoverl', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'armcoverr', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'poddoorl', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'poddoorr', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'barrelclamp', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'barrel', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunbzrdr', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunbzrdl', believed to be in ship Wraith.pof
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Wraith.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x55be5250, IBX checksum: 0x22b19923 -- "Wraith.pof"
Loading model 'UEDSolaris.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt05a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt06a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt07a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt08a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt09a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt10a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt11a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt12a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt13a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt14a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt15a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door1-trrt16a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt05a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt06a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt07a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt08a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt09a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt10a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt11a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt12a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt13a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt14a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt15a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'door2-trrt16a', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'rotatora', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Fighterbay01', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Fighterbay02', believed to be in ship UEDSolaris.pof
Found live debris model for 'communication'
Found live debris model for 'engine01'
Found live debris model for 'engine01'
Found live debris model for 'engine02'
Found live debris model for 'engine02'
Found live debris model for 'engine03'
Found live debris model for 'engine03'
Found live debris model for 'navigation'
Found live debris model for 'rotatora'
Found live debris model for 'rotatora'
Found live debris model for 'sensors'
Found live debris model for 'weapons'
Found live debris model for 'weapons'
Found live debris model for 'weapons'
Found live debris model for 'weapons'
Found live debris model for 'weapons'
Found live debris model for 'weapons'
Found live debris model for 'weapons'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'UEDSolaris.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x2ccdde9b, IBX checksum: 0x1874388a -- "UEDSolaris.pof"
Submodel 'rotatorb' is detail level 1 of 'rotatora'
Submodel 'rotatorc' is detail level 2 of 'rotatora'
Submodel 'turret01b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret01a-base'
Submodel 'turret01b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret01a-arm'
Submodel 'turret02b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret02a-base'
Submodel 'turret02b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret02a-arm'
Submodel 'turret03b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret03a-base'
Submodel 'turret03b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret03a-arm'
Submodel 'turret04b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret04a-base'
Submodel 'turret04b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret04a-arm'
Submodel 'turret05b' is detail level 1 of 'turret05a'
Submodel 'turret06b' is detail level 1 of 'turret06a'
Submodel 'turret07b' is detail level 1 of 'turret07a'
Submodel 'turret08b' is detail level 1 of 'turret08a'
Submodel 'turret09b' is detail level 1 of 'turret09a'
Submodel 'turret10b' is detail level 1 of 'turret10a'
Submodel 'turret11b' is detail level 1 of 'turret11a'
Submodel 'turret12b' is detail level 1 of 'turret12a'
Submodel 'turret13b' is detail level 1 of 'turret13a'
Submodel 'turret14b' is detail level 1 of 'turret14a'
Submodel 'turret15b' is detail level 1 of 'turret15a'
Submodel 'turret16b' is detail level 1 of 'turret16a'
Submodel 'turret17b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret17a-base'
Submodel 'turret17b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret17a-arm'
Submodel 'turret18b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret18a-base'
Submodel 'turret19b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret19a-base'
Submodel 'turret19b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret19a-arm'
Submodel 'turret20b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret20a-base'
Submodel 'turret21b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret21a-base'
Submodel 'turret21b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret21a-arm'
Submodel 'turret22b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret22a-base'
Submodel 'turret22b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret22a-arm'
Submodel 'turret23b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret23a-base'
Submodel 'turret23b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret23a-arm'
Submodel 'turret24b-base' is detail level 1 of 'turret24a-base'
Submodel 'turret24b-arm' is detail level 1 of 'turret24a-arm'
Submodel 'turret25b' is detail level 1 of 'turret25a'
Submodel 'turret26b' is detail level 1 of 'turret26a'
Submodel 'turret27b' is detail level 1 of 'turret27a'
Submodel 'turret28b' is detail level 1 of 'turret28a'
Submodel 'turret29b' is detail level 1 of 'turret29a'
Submodel 'turret30b' is detail level 1 of 'turret30a'
Submodel 'turret31b' is detail level 1 of 'turret31a'
Submodel 'turret32b' is detail level 1 of 'turret32a'
Submodel 'turret33b' is detail level 1 of 'turret33a'
Submodel 'turret34b' is detail level 1 of 'turret34a'
Submodel 'turret35b' is detail level 1 of 'turret35a'
Submodel 'turret36b' is detail level 1 of 'turret36a'
Submodel 'turret37b' is detail level 1 of 'turret37a'
Submodel 'turret38b' is detail level 1 of 'turret38a'
Submodel 'turret39b' is detail level 1 of 'turret39a'
Submodel 'turret40b' is detail level 1 of 'turret40a'
Submodel 'turret41b' is detail level 1 of 'turret41a'
Submodel 'turret42b' is detail level 1 of 'turret42a'
Submodel 'turret43b' is detail level 1 of 'turret43a'
Submodel 'turret44b' is detail level 1 of 'turret44a'
Submodel 'turret45b' is detail level 1 of 'turret45a'
Submodel 'turret46b' is detail level 1 of 'turret46a'
Submodel 'turret47b' is detail level 1 of 'turret47a'
Submodel 'turret48b' is detail level 1 of 'turret48a'
Submodel 'turret49b' is detail level 1 of 'turret49a'
Submodel 'turret50b' is detail level 1 of 'turret50a'
Submodel 'turret51b' is detail level 1 of 'turret51a'
Submodel 'turret52b' is detail level 1 of 'turret52a'
Submodel 'turret53b' is detail level 1 of 'turret53a'
Submodel 'turret54b' is detail level 1 of 'turret54a'
Submodel 'turret55b' is detail level 1 of 'turret55a'
Submodel 'turret56b' is detail level 1 of 'turret56a'
Submodel 'turret57b' is detail level 1 of 'turret57a'
Submodel 'turret58b' is detail level 1 of 'turret58a'
Submodel 'turret59b' is detail level 1 of 'turret59a'
Submodel 'turret60b' is detail level 1 of 'turret60a'
Loading model 'KarunaMk1.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'rotatora', believed to be in ship KarunaMk1.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Reactor01', believed to be in ship KarunaMk1.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Reactor02', believed to be in ship KarunaMk1.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Fighterbay', believed to be in ship KarunaMk1.pof
Found live debris model for 'navigation'
Found live debris model for 'navigation'
Found live debris model for 'sensors'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'KarunaMk1.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x3771aad4, IBX checksum: 0x68db40ff -- "KarunaMk1.pof"
Submodel 'engine01b' is detail level 1 of 'engine01a'
Submodel 'engine01c' is detail level 2 of 'engine01a'
Submodel 'engine01d' is detail level 3 of 'engine01a'
Submodel 'engine01b-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'engine01a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine01c-destroyed' is detail level 2 of 'engine01a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine01d-destroyed' is detail level 3 of 'engine01a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine02b' is detail level 1 of 'engine02a'
Submodel 'engine02c' is detail level 2 of 'engine02a'
Submodel 'engine02d' is detail level 3 of 'engine02a'
Submodel 'engine02b-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'engine02a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine02c-destroyed' is detail level 2 of 'engine02a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine02d-destroyed' is detail level 3 of 'engine02a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine03b' is detail level 1 of 'engine03a'
Submodel 'engine03c' is detail level 2 of 'engine03a'
Submodel 'engine03d' is detail level 3 of 'engine03a'
Submodel 'engine03b-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'engine03a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine03c-destroyed' is detail level 2 of 'engine03a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine03d-destroyed' is detail level 3 of 'engine03a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine04b' is detail level 1 of 'engine04a'
Submodel 'engine04c' is detail level 2 of 'engine04a'
Submodel 'engine04d' is detail level 3 of 'engine04a'
Submodel 'engine04b-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'engine04a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine04c-destroyed' is detail level 2 of 'engine04a-destroyed'
Submodel 'engine04d-destroyed' is detail level 3 of 'engine04a-destroyed'
Submodel 'rotatorb-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'rotatora-destroyed'
Submodel 'rotatorc-destroyed' is detail level 2 of 'rotatora-destroyed'
Submodel 'rotatord-destroyed' is detail level 3 of 'rotatora-destroyed'
Submodel 'rotatorb' is detail level 1 of 'rotatora'
Submodel 'rotatorc' is detail level 2 of 'rotatora'
Submodel 'rotatord' is detail level 3 of 'rotatora'
Allocating space for at least 43 new ship subsystems ...  a total of 200 is now available (43 in-use).
Loading model 'Torrent.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Torrent.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xedda9d0e, IBX checksum: 0xe53c7811 -- "Torrent.pof"
Loading model 'raynor.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'fighterbay', believed to be in ship raynor.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'fighterbay', believed to be in ship raynor.pof
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'raynor.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x35063004, IBX checksum: 0x1db6851c -- "raynor.pof"
Loading model 'corvette2t-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'corvette2t-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x3aaebe96, IBX checksum: 0x42b3e9a3 -- "corvette2t-01.pof"
Loading model 'cruiser2t-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'cruiser2t-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xb6b2d965, IBX checksum: 0x8b764fcf -- "cruiser2t-01.pof"
Loading model 'jackal-e.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gundoorbl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gundoorbr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gundoortl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gundoortr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'guns', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'hullpodl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'hullpodr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'leftintake', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'leftventbl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'leftventbr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'leftventtl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'leftventtr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'rightintake', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'rightventbl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'rightventbr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'rightventtl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'rightventtr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tailbl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tailbr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tailtl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tailtr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector1', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector10', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector11', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector12', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector2', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector3', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector4', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector5', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector6', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector7', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector8', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'tdeflector9', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'throttle', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'wingpodl', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'wingpodr', believed to be in ship jackal-e.pof
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'jackal-e.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x6da1d174, IBX checksum: 0x9f2f794b -- "jackal-e.pof"
Loading model 'ezec8guns.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'ezec8guns.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x14c538ad, IBX checksum: 0xf254c52f -- "ezec8guns.pof"
Loading model 'fighter2t-03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'fighter2t-03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x437b0cfb, IBX checksum: 0x7a6fa692 -- "fighter2t-03.pof"
Loading model 'fighter2t-05.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'fighter2t-05.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xbfb37609, IBX checksum: 0x207ec69a -- "fighter2t-05.pof"
Loading model 'HellRaiserXA.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayLin', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayLout', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayRin', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BBayRout', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'BbayBtms', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GArmL', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GArmR', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GProbes', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GRail', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Gbarrel', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverFRNT', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverL', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverR', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'GcoverTop', believed to be in ship HellRaiserXA.pof
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'HellRaiserXA.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x906537f1, IBX checksum: 0x947da071 -- "HellRaiserXA.pof"
Loading model 'banshee.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'ABPanel1', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'ABPanel2', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'ABPanel3', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'ABPanel4', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'ABPanel5', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'ABPanel6', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'THROTTLE', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'VENTL', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'VENTR', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunbarrelL', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunbarrelR', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunclawBL', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunclawBR', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunclawTL', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'gunclawTR', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'guncoverBL', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'guncoverBR', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'guncoverTL', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'guncoverTR', believed to be in ship banshee.pof
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'banshee.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x2e34e7df, IBX checksum: 0x9b47ced8 -- "banshee.pof"
Loading model 'corvette3t-03.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'corvette3t-03.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xdbfc9fea, IBX checksum: 0xca45d74c -- "corvette3t-03.pof"
Loading model 'Blip.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Blip.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x8701ba27, IBX checksum: 0x3ee2fcac -- "Blip.pof"
Submodel 'blipb' is detail level 1 of 'blipa'
Submodel 'blipc' is detail level 2 of 'blipa'
Submodel 'blipd' is detail level 3 of 'blipa'
Loading model 'Tethis2.pof'
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'RotatorLRa', believed to be in ship Tethis2.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'RotatorSMa', believed to be in ship Tethis2.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Fighterbay01', believed to be in ship Tethis2.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Fighterbay02', believed to be in ship Tethis2.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Fighterbay03', believed to be in ship Tethis2.pof
Potential problem found: Unrecognized subsystem type 'Fighterbay04', believed to be in ship Tethis2.pof
Found live debris model for 'Engine01a'
Found live debris model for 'Engine02a'
Found live debris model for 'Engine03a'
Found live debris model for 'RotatorLRa'
Found live debris model for 'RotatorLRa'
Found live debris model for 'RotatorSMa'
Found live debris model for 'RotatorSMa'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'Tethis2.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0xede36767, IBX checksum: 0xf561060b -- "Tethis2.pof"
Submodel 'Engine01b' is detail level 1 of 'Engine01a'
Submodel 'Engine01b-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'Engine01a-destroyed'
Submodel 'Engine02b' is detail level 1 of 'Engine02a'
Submodel 'Engine02b-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'Engine02a-destroyed'
Submodel 'Engine03b' is detail level 1 of 'Engine03a'
Submodel 'Engine03c' is detail level 2 of 'Engine03a'
Submodel 'Engine03b-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'Engine03a-destroyed'
Submodel 'RotatorLRb' is detail level 1 of 'RotatorLRa'
Submodel 'RotatorLRc' is detail level 2 of 'RotatorLRa'
Submodel 'RotatorLRb-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'RotatorLRa-destroyed'
Submodel 'RotatorSMb' is detail level 1 of 'RotatorSMa'
Submodel 'RotatorSMc' is detail level 2 of 'RotatorSMa'
Submodel 'RotatorSMb-destroyed' is detail level 1 of 'RotatorSMa-destroyed'
Loading model 'corvette3t-01.pof'
IBX: Found a good IBX to read for 'corvette3t-01.pof'.
IBX-DEBUG => POF checksum: 0x67019812, IBX checksum: 0x1316a408 -- "corvette3t-01.pof"
WARNING: "IBX: Safety Check Failure!  The file doesn't contain enough data, deleting 'corvette3t-01.bx'" at modelinterp.cpp:4299
Int3(): From d:\fso\scp bp branch\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1371

Your video card probably cannot handle BP right now.

That said, here's another issue - "  -shadow_quality 0,-spec_point 0.3" You've got a comma in your custom command line flags.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TheDemon on January 10, 2013, 02:27:54 pm
Her Finest Hour was insane fun.
Spoiler:
The trick for me was reload and artillery management. Grimlers have 4500 or so range, you have 8 and can reload them multiple times. Artillery fires their missiles at targets more or less in the order you designate then and the cannons they fire once the AWACS are down just wreck the enemy point defenses, although they are much worse in terms of target priority. So if you knock out the mjols with 4 grims each, rearm, hit the enemy AWACS radars with 2 grims each from out of their range, that's pretty much it. You can do the entire rest of that mission with artillery management.

edit: What I'm saying is the key is basically get your artillery cannons online by disabling the AWACS as soon as you can. The missile barrage the frigates shoot is nice, but the enemy's AA screen cuts it to shreds. You need your cannons up since they can't be shot down. Once arty's online you just have to be patient as it wipes the capships. Mjols are trouble, but not half as much as not having your cannons.

My artillery order was: Tankers and the Hyperion. Once I have a breather I add the Leviathan. Once the minelayers start becoming destroyed on your targets list add one corvette, then the other. While this is going on you can deal with the Auroras or the Station or just sit around doing nothing, whichever suits. Without the AA field from the cruisers and corvettes you could probably get away with only calling 2 squads to annihilate the Carthage's engines.

Also, did I hit a bug in the refinery mission, or is it just really short? I deployed all my guns, killed the scouts, and then the mission was successfully over before I even had a chance to kill or disarm the gunship, probably around a minute after they warped in.

I ran into this too, on my 2nd attempt for the platform mission.  Haven't had it repeat though.

I got this too in a 2nd playthrough. What happened to me was, during the bomber wave, the transport gave a "we're hit, pulling out" message, then undocked and jumped out before the stealth fighters even arrived. I was then given mission successful, return to base.

I think what happens is if the transport docks, then is damaged a lot, then withdraws because of that damage, you succeed anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MetalDestroyer on January 10, 2013, 03:49:21 pm
Damn, I'm stuck in "In her finest hour". The Carthage still manage to escape. :(

Spoiler:
I save the Serenity, I destroyed all tankers, I neutralized all Mjorln Beam and both AWAC dome and when come to disable the Carthage, when approaching 20%, he jumps.
I also try to destroy the radar dish and upload virus in Neptune HQ, but nothing really change. the Carthage still escape despite I call all reinforcement I could.

And, I was playing in very easy ! :( And the arty works for my first target, then, he won't listen to me. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: aledeth on January 10, 2013, 03:58:08 pm
I think there's a bug with artillery target slaving, they stop listening to me after the first few minutes, so I make sure to give them all my instructions immediately. That said...

Spoiler:
Did you make sure to have all your reinforcements targeting the Carthage's engines? They will always jump out when the Carthage's HP falls to 20% if the engines aren't destroyed before then. It might be that the artillery is weakening the C too much so that you aren't able to knock out the engines? I solved that by Slaving the artillery and targeting every other capital ship in the area, so they wouldn't hurt the C too much before I was ready to finish her off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2013, 04:02:22 pm
The artillery bug is pretty well known and we absolutely cannot figure out what it is. It may be a deep engine bug involving repeating events.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 10, 2013, 05:02:51 pm
Those are all empty shells. What's your point ?

My point is that your sentence is meaningless drivel. I could rant all night long about how really astray your thought went there, but I'll just mention the word "Azad" and perhaps some passerby will understand what I'm hinting at.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on January 10, 2013, 05:06:34 pm
Those are all empty shells. What's your point ?

My point is that your sentence is meaningless drivel. I could rant all night long about how really astray your thought went there, but I'll just mention the word "Azad" and perhaps some passerby will understand what I'm hinting at.

Obviously MatthTheGeek is not a player of games.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 10, 2013, 05:41:13 pm
A game can be hugely immersive without having a ton of story.

Shadow of the Colossus for example is about as simple as it gets. Go kill some monsters. It's the gameplay itself that tells the story, including that butchering a bunch of solitary monsters who are content to be off in isolation may not be as noble as you first think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 10, 2013, 06:39:18 pm
Spoilers following:

I had no such artillery bug.
I used shrikes, orderd my wingmen to protect the serenity, two shrikes fired at the first mjolnir, ammo pack, second mjolnir, Narayanas went straight for the tankers(from mission start), called support ship, resupplied, killed the radar dome(honestly, I had more problems with the Auroras going for my Awacs), scanned the sensor systems, ordered my wing to destroy the Carthages radardome, all the while the Naras killed the minelayers. Once they are down I let them blast the Corvettes while I called in my reinforcments...now artillery bug, just the problem with the jump out command:
Jumped clear strikecraft was listed as destroyed, the Custos didn't jump out at all...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 10, 2013, 07:30:24 pm
Jumped clear strikecraft was listed as destroyed, the Custos didn't jump out at all...
I think the last part is intentional -- Custos are too big to cycle their drives near-instantly like fighters and bombers can.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 10, 2013, 08:12:19 pm
 I have to say I have enjoyed all this so far, so many choices and outcomes for missions! Learning more about the inner workings of what happens thought the BPerse have given me second thoughts about everything I had made up my mind about in AoA & WiH P1.
Spoiler:
Also, what the hell have you done guys?! You can't just take Soundwave, make his voice more badass and make him a "god"! The universe is NOT ready!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 10, 2013, 08:54:28 pm
It just occurred to me that Tenebra contains precisely zero directives to shoot beam turrets off of hostile warships. Was this a deliberate design decision? :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on January 10, 2013, 09:07:02 pm
Au contraire!
Spoiler:
Destroying the Mjolnir beam turrets is good enough to satisfy the Neutralize Mjolnir directive!
While not directly saying "kill the beam cannons" it still half counts, which is more than zero!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LordPomposity on January 10, 2013, 09:08:18 pm
I picked the term "warship" very carefully. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ^Graff on January 10, 2013, 10:32:04 pm
In "Nothing is True," is there a certain event that causes the Gef fighters to break and run?  Because I once had them desert me even before the Awacs went down, and once they helpfully stayed behind to mop up most of the convoy before taking off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2013, 10:41:35 pm
In "Nothing is True," is there a certain event that causes the Gef fighters to break and run?  Because I once had them desert me even before the Awacs went down, and once they helpfully stayed behind to mop up most of the convoy before taking off.

They'll run under a few conditions:

-Lots of them blow up
-A certain amount of time passes
-You give them a lot of bad orders and make them angry
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logrus on January 11, 2013, 12:44:03 am
Dear BP team! I know that it's "when it is done", etc. But at what stage is the development of acts 4 & 5 now? Will we have to wait another two years to know what happenned next?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2013, 12:48:56 am
Act 4 has good progress, and its missions are closer to those in Act 1 and 2 (and therefore simpler). The player is generally positioned as a squadron commander with some supplemental assets available, rather than a black ops ninja with a whole load of gear.

The new stuff to look forward to is the Izra and the bombers with their crazy gear and wild survival packages.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: [Wolf]Maverick on January 11, 2013, 02:04:51 am
Sounds Awesome!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on January 11, 2013, 02:07:18 am
I was thinking a graphic novel storytelling could fit well to some parts of Laporte's journal.
A bit like the Mass Effect 2 DLC, with a narrator voice over some scenes of life with the wargods and in the UEF. Not something fancy, just some few drawings, a bit like in fs2 credits and artworks in the techroom, integrated to the fiction viewer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 11, 2013, 12:06:36 pm
Tell me what's the story behind Quakelive, Soccer, Table Football, Monopoly, Poker, RPG deck games etc.,etc.

Come on, that statement was utterly asinine and insane.
Well, firstly I hope we all agree that there is a slight difference between physical sports or mental exercises and video games. And between Jump'n Run or Shot 'Em Up games on the one side or space combat simulations on the other.

Secondly, my criticism was not aimed at BP having a story or not having a story. It was aimed at the way the story was presented. I don't have a problem with Act 3 being text-heavy. I think the quantity of text is still fine as it was in Acts 1 and 2. What I have a problem with is the distribution of that quantity of text.
See, you have four combat missions in this act which contain very little story and comparably little text. And then you have these dreamscape missions in-between which consist only of text. Seven to ten minutes long. And this is boring. In my opinion.

Let me again remind you of Aristeia or Post Meridian. I think these are my absolute favorite missions in FS ever. Because they are a nice synthesis of a classic space combat setting, well-written in-game dialogue that drives the story forward and develops the characters, and, in the case of Aristeia a nice new feature you haven't seen before. And that is why I liked Acts 1 and 2 so much and got so disappointed by Act 3. Again, I am not saying that Act 3 is bad. It's simply not meeting my expectations of what a really good Freespace campaign is composed of. I can understand the teams motivation to do why they did what they did. But I just think that they overdid it in quite a lot of regards.

To trace an arc back to my first point: When you go play football, you expect to kick a football into the other team's goal. When you play chess you expect to beat the enemy by strategic thinking. And when I play Freespace I expect to take a fighter with guns on it an KICK SOME ASS! ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on January 11, 2013, 12:21:48 pm
Vidmaster's review
Loved the new release.  :nod: Awesome work you released there and although WiH Act 1&2 set ridiculous standards, it did not disappoint. However, amongst the great story and cool stuff typical for BP, there are enough flaws to prevent this new act from rising over the previous ones. I loved it, yes, but I loved Act 1&2 even more.

1.) I think your mission design relied to much on the "innovating element". With every mission possessing its own specific rules and not a single standard combat mission, you basically gone a bit too far. I know this has story reasons and you this Act is supposed to show of different types of gameplay but the issue with special mechanics is that each time one is not executed well, it hurts the experience. When every mission relies on such mechanics, the chance of screwing up is higher. Which brings me to...
2.) The dreamscape: The story here is superb, foreshadowing stuff and characterizing people, as well as opinions, forces, lore and the world in general. I did not miss any conversation and did not want to. But the execution is flawed: The necessity to fly around is boring, once you enter a conversation you sit still again.
I liked the solar system map (ignoring the crazy texture bugs I sometimes had with it) but the rest...   meeehh  :sigh:
My recommendation would be to replace these sequences by a "ingame menu like level". Displaying the solar system texture in the background, the user could simply be presented with the "ships" currently present in the dreamscape. The "shivan ship scaling up" sequence in the last level shows promise. Basically, take us out of the cockpit, eliminiate the flying around part.
3.) Mission complexity: Providing options is awesome but sometimes you are demanding an insane amount of spacial awareness. I took about 4 shots at the first mission, 6 at the assassination and 11 at "Her finest hour". Really liked them, mastered them, conquered them in the end. The issue with these missions that you are thrown into those. For the first two, its okay because you are not forced to act at a moments notice. "Her finest hour" crossed the border, not because it was to complex into itself but because it took to many iterations to learn its rules. A short cutscene, establishing the battlefield would have helped. Add e.g. a camera sweep to that mission (skipable!) going from Neptune to the AWACS location, the Destroyer, its escort screen, the sentries and finally the friendly ships. And, like I said, a "standard" mission in between would have helped. I think the tower-defense worked really well although it was really easy while the capship mission did not add much, its not really tactical combat.

I personally am looking forward to new large scale engagements as part of a fleet, "Collateral Damage", "Post Meridian", "Darkest Hour" and "Artisea" (or how that was called) and of course "Delenda Est" remain my favorite freespace-themed missions on HLP.

Thanks for an awesome game nonetheless. No go make an even better conclusion.


EDIT: SF-Junky's post fits...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 11, 2013, 01:06:52 pm
See, you have four combat missions in this act which contain very little story and comparably little text. And then you have these dreamscape missions in-between which consist only of text. Seven to ten minutes long. And this is boring.
Well, a lot of the complaints about WiH1 were that there was too much talking during combat-heavy missions. So, we fixed that. Seems like we can't indeed please everyone.

The dreamscape: The story here is superb, foreshadowing stuff and characterizing people, as well as opinions, forces, lore and the world in general. I did not miss any conversation and did not want to. But the execution is flawed: The necessity to fly around is boring, once you enter a conversation you sit still again.
I liked the solar system map (ignoring the crazy texture bugs I sometimes had with it) but the rest...   meeehh  :sigh:
My recommendation would be to replace these sequences by a "ingame menu like level". Displaying the solar system texture in the background, the user could simply be presented with the "ships" currently present in the dreamscape. The "shivan ship scaling up" sequence in the last level shows promise. Basically, take us out of the cockpit, eliminiate the flying around part.
People in WiH1 were complaining that we have too many fiction viewer sequences and wanted something more interactive. We gave em. Again, seems like it's a "can't please everybody" scenario.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 11, 2013, 01:13:26 pm
The Dreamscape was a perfect solution to the dialogue masses that would build up during WiH P1, I suggest you guys keep it and keep refining it, while considering moving some info/comments to missions, but keeping the important stuff on the 'Scape. Also, I disagree with the notion of moving in the dream being bad, I think it adds something to the game, I do suggest that you increase the speed on the dummy craft you fly on the mission though, even after shunting all power to the engines it still feels a bit slow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on January 11, 2013, 01:19:18 pm
Again, seems like it's a "can't please everybody" scenario.

Don't try to please everyone.

Keep doing exactly what you are doing because you guys are awesome :nod:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on January 11, 2013, 02:35:04 pm
It's like I can't even disagree more with Vidmaster and SF-Junky.
'Standard combat missions', we've had those. We've had like a hunderd of those now. They've become boring, dull. Saying that Act 3 is lesser because it lacks 'standard' missions is insanity.

It reminds me of this one comment I read on a review of Sol Exodus.
Quote
To be fair, this is precisely why the Space Sim genre has died off. I’m sure I’m not the first one to say or think this, but when you’re strapped into a space fighter/bomber, your options for interacting with the game world are very limited. You’re either on a seek and destroy mission, a scan suspicious cargo / it’s a trap / now you can seek and destroy mission, or a babysitting mission.
This part of that comment stuck with me. Especially since I read it shortly after Axem released JAD 2.21. Who's very existence proves this guy wrong. And now here we have Act 3 of WiH that again proves this person wrong. The space sim genre is innovating full speed in its mission design.
Act 3 has you infiltrate a convoy, rigging it to blow. Making it all go down in an incredible blaze of fire. And it gives you multiple ways to go about it.
Then you stealth your way into an enemy staging ground and have to carefully monitor the communications to correctly identify and then eliminate a high ranking offical. But you can also hack large defensive beam cannons to just blow the **** out of the Elder.
After that you have to prevent a large asteroid habitat from being warped into Earth's orbit by either flying your capital ship into the asteroid and blowing it the **** up. Or securing the area in a sweet capital ship battle and sending in marines to take over the command center.

Holy **** are you still with me? These three missions alone give the player more options and innovation than the whole of Act 1 and 2 combined. And I haven't even mentioned the Dreamscape hub yet!
But it doesn't even stop there, no it just gets even better. Holy ****s to the wall, what is this madness.

The next three missions are unbelievable in their FREDing. Axem and Battuta are like the modern day Muramasa and Masamune (if you don't know who those two are, look it up you uncultured swine), crafting masterwork after masterwork.
Mission 21 has you affect a BoE like no one has ever done before. You aren't doing 'standard' **** like disarming beam turrets and intercepting bombers. We've all done those a hunderd ****ing times already. (All those missions didn't suddenly vanish over night, you can play them any time of the day if you feel like playing 'a standard combat mission'.) No instead, you hit tactical important targets that swing the balance of the capital ship battle in your favor. All the while you gather 'resources' for the final killing blow against the enemy Flagship.
The sheer FREDing scope of this mission is unrivaled and the execution of it is excellent. You can approach this mission succesfully in so many ways its staggering.
You can even choose to never leave stealth yourself and just direct the battle to a good conclusion from the sidelines. ****ing glorious.

Then mission 22 is Tower defense in Freespace Mother****er. Holy **** mang, this is just too stronk. Axem has done **** Nobody has ever done before. He created a complete and working interface to deploy your tankturrets and it all works. Pushing the Freespace open engine beyond its limits!

And then mission 23 is just... mind blowing. It lasts a good 40 minutes but unlike the disaster of a last mission that WCS had, this was nothing short of an amazing trip. I was flabbergasted after playing through this the first time. It intrigued and creeped me out at the same time. Today I played it again to check something that changed during the beta and release and found myself looking at the ingame clock going "what the hell, im 30 minutes in already? It felt like 5". That mission just graps you and doesn't let go until the debriefing. The FREDing, the sound and music usage, the excellent vocals and writing is just unmatched by Anything ever released in the Freespace community. Hands down.

I was one of the bigger critics of Acts 1 and 2. I wasn't very fond of how 'standard' the gameplay was in some places and how often you were railroaded to a 'failure' of a mission. Act 3 has none of this and is all the better for it.

Is it flawless?
Nothing ever is.
Act 3 definitely has some issues with data overflow and indeed, the critism that it introduces a new gameplay element each mission without letting the player ease into them is very valid (And the BP team is not ignorant of this at all). But all of this only really means that you probably have to redo the missions a couple of times before you figure out how to approach it. (It requires a certain amount of concentration and intelligent thinking)
You need to be in a reading mood for BP.

tl;dr: You are entitled to your opinion, but I think your opinion is just plain wrong.
Act 3 easily exceeds Act 1 and 2. It's a bloody masterpiece.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on January 11, 2013, 06:00:33 pm
I think with all these words that debate the points between "classic tried and true" vs "untested new and unusual" gameplays just shows how much passion we all have for the game. My own mantra is to make something unique every time, and sometimes unique doesn't always come off as great to everyone.

And just in regards for introducing new game elements, we did have a stealth tutorial sort of half done to ease the player in, but I felt it was a little heavy to give an elaborate tutorial for gameplay concepts that last an entire single mission. But I have some ideas that may help new players in a future patch release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 11, 2013, 06:15:31 pm
*Words*

Spoon, I couldn't have put it better myself.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2013, 09:40:10 pm
We're totally happy to get criticism about what people liked and didn't like. We always want to explore new stuff. Whenever things change we know some people will like it less and like it more - we just hope we can always offer enough to keep people interested.

One thing I thought Spoon really hit on, though, and that we're really proud of, is the fact that these missions reward a ton of replay. Even if you found them totally perplexing the first run through, think of them as a little package of brand new games to figure out. You can run through Act 3 a couple times and try different approaches.

As much as Her Finest Hour has perplexed some people, who claim it's too much like a puzzle and you have to figure out the 'intended' way to win, one of my favorite things about is that everybody's 'winning strategy' ends up quite different.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on January 11, 2013, 10:04:02 pm
Yeah, I gotta agree wholeheartedly with Spoon. If I just wanted to shoot stuff, there are amazing numbers of ways to do that. Heck, I suck at FREDing, but I can make a mission with stuff to shoot.

Sure, maybe stuff got a little confusing sometimes, but that's the price we pay for massive innovation. I expected a tower defense mission less than I expected the Spanish Inquisition (and nobody expects that), but after I realized what had been done, I actually had to pause for a few seconds and say to myself, "Holy ****, is this still the FSO engine? How did they DO this?"

I guess what I'm trying to say is keep being awesome, guys. Keep pushing the limits. You definitely can't please everyone, but BP is your baby.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on January 11, 2013, 11:30:34 pm
I had to replay some missions.  I think all but two.  Some of them I had to replay a lot, I even thought about how the 'after 5 mission failures the skip button comes up'... never saw it... I think it's in the debrief sometimes, and due to if one thing in my grandiose evil plan not working I would want a restart.  Was real hard on the
Spoiler:
assination
because I only had myself to blame there.  :yes: 
Spoiler:
Of course the target would change ships, this isn't amateur hour  :nod:
  It was quite the achievement to make it difficult and require some trial and error without making it feel like a chore. 

I guess if I have to criticize, you never really get to see your wingman develop on a personal level on the field.  My favorite quote from r1 was something along the lines of "I'm feeling uneducated, unrefined, and decidedly unsafe."  Was it a quote from somewhere else?  I dunno.  But it worked.  It was on the attack on the logistics and I can't look the mission up ATM, but it was your wingmen being awesome for the sake of being Wargods.  I found it hard to believe that you are practically just along for the ride with the wingmen in R1 as they redefine badassery, then you are fitted into a spec ops unit with very little command experience expected to lead black ops missions.  Maybe cliche, but after the first dreamscape mission, I was expecting Kovacs to be the shot caller, thinking I would have to survive (outlive, usurp) him somehow.  I also get how you are the Nagari girl and they need you to realize your potential, but I think assuming control on the first mission was a bit... tactically unsound.  Unfortunately that would probably mean one or two missions of same ****, different day.  (rereading this post, the fact that your wingmen just GO also does enhance their image of being a detached, efficient gestalt)

I had to think in retrospect real hard about a flaw, as you guys do seem to have a respect for criticism.  The release is damn good and I don't want to be subjective.  If this was an instantaneous release (entire WiH released at once) the change in flow would have been a master stroke.  Having not played FS2 for a while having been on a Steam shopping spree, I think it would have been nice to have a 'feet wet' mission first.  Not that it should open with another escort mission.  Thinking about it for a minute, perhaps the first mission is just about right, but Laporte has too much authority.  Or perhaps I am just being critical for the sake of being critical. 

Kinda feels like hooking up with a chick from the bar.  Can't believe I don't have to pay for this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2013, 12:06:46 am
The Act 3 wingmen are pretty badass. Not only do they run at pretty much peak human performance in terms of their in-game capabilities, but they have a fair bit of scripting to help them interpret orders and save micromanagement. For example, when you tell them to guard the Serenity in M21, instead of just looping around the ship until the bombs are flying, they'll run out and meet the incoming bombers. In M18 they'll interpret an attack order on any individual convoy ship as a chance to queue up attack orders on its neighbors.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on January 12, 2013, 12:13:47 am
True, but that's more the badassery of a well oiled machine than an elite 'band of brothers'. It fits the Fedayeen image well, but I didn't feel as personally connected to the wingmen themselves. They don't have that Martian esprit de corps that made me feel so close to the Wargods.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2013, 12:21:15 am
I think it'd be a little weird if people got too personally attached to these guys.

Speaking of which, did the fiction viewer work? It occurs to me I haven't verified that anybody actually got to read the Act 3 fiction.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on January 12, 2013, 12:35:52 am
The fiction viewer would be Laporte's journal?  If so, then yes.

Maybe badassed was the wrong term.  They had these detached personalities in the missions, but were obviously well thought out characters.  I would bet it was a design choice.  However, in protect the Serenity example, they might be doing the right thing, but I am still used to treating orders to wingmen as stock FS2 wingmen.  If they are particularly well scripted to do something right when I order them to, maybe attach "will screen for bombers, let's get the Serenity home."  One replay was myself diving into the bomber assault, watching my wingmen execute the order perfectly, and acknowledging that I can do this from now on without having to hold any hands.

I hesitate giving suggestions, you guys put a lot of effort into the coding on a level I cannot compete with.  The following idea would throw off the balance of the Carthage mission and perhaps damage the replayability, but some chatter when the troops are idle or a (forgive incorrect term) cutscene narration (like when you are asking Ken the final questions) presenting your next orders could be implemented.

I would like to disclaim that more than likely ya'll had in-depth discussions about all of this.  If this is the case, lemme know and I will stop, desist, and discontinue this line of thought. 

Edit: Another example. 
Spoiler:
I felt I needed to assign an order to kill every Aurora by an individual pilot.  I was cruising to the station at the time so I used that time to issue the order.  I also know I had to order every individual radar dome to be destroyed.  I evolved my plan to deal with that clunker of a wingman order.

Did I mind?  No.  That was part of the fun.  Did it rob from the illusion that I was leading highly trained operatives?  Yes.  Was it too specific of an order that without being able to use voice commands I am being unreasonable considering the scope of the permutations?  More than likely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2013, 11:03:15 am
One thing I wanted to discuss in the (still upcoming) cut content thread are the tutorials we had built for players to access from the dreamscape. We eventually cut them for time and because we felt like the existing missions did a good enough job teaching the new stuff.

There were also options in the dreamscape that you could use to remove some of the help-oriented HUD gauges.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on January 12, 2013, 01:59:17 pm
Seems like we can't indeed please everyone.

Yeah. I thought War in Heaven Release 1's design was perfect. Loved EVERY SINGLE second. :-)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on January 12, 2013, 05:25:13 pm
Something that bothered me for a while but i never found the time to ask:

I just browsed through the tech room and again run into the new and realy beautiful Diomedes model (which looks absolutly awesome  :eek2: ) but i did ask myself, why did the alliance build a new class of ship when they allready had a somewhat similar design at hand.

I speak of the Iceni. Ok, its tables show it as a great war era ship with great war era armament, but ingame it is show with modern weapons and tbh.: I never understound why the GTVA didnt build more of it, especially after it caused them so much trouble.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 12, 2013, 05:33:38 pm
The Iceni and the Diomedes fill similar, but different roles. The Iceni is a blockade runner, built to run through heavily defended chokepoints. The Diomedes is a patrol vessel, intended for long-term independent deployment.

By the time the GTVA had an opening for a "Corvette+", they also had new weapons and doctrines, and so the Iceni design was cast aside, as it was just as complicated to change the Iceni design to fit into the slot than it would to build a new ship from scratch.

And then there's the issue with the Iceni being a design made of compromises; one just needs to look at its weapon placement to see that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on January 12, 2013, 05:39:39 pm
Ok, i understand that. Just would have been cool to see something like the GTFf Saphah in BP. Maybee it could still serve in a similar role as SOC Base of Ops or something.

Btw.: can someone tell me if the Iceni has a fighterbay after all? I always was under the impression it did have one, but cant find it on the model nor can find any confirmation for that.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 12, 2013, 05:47:11 pm
What makes you think they ever got their hands on the blueprints ? It's a full-bred NTF design, remember.

The Iceni is also designed around fusion reactors, and hence wouldn't be able to power blue meson beams.

Also, the roles are entirely different. The Iceni is a node breaker and command ship designed to house the ETAK. The Diomedes is a tactically flexible strike package with hangar capabilities able to operate independently.

The Diomedes is also most likely designed to share spare parts with other new-gen Tev warships.

Should I go on ? :p

EDIT: damnit ninja'd

Nope, Iceni never had any kind fighterbay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on January 12, 2013, 05:56:35 pm
What makes you think they ever got their hands on the blueprints ? It's a full-bred NTF design, remember.

The Iceni is also designed around fusion reactors, and hence wouldn't be able to power blue meson beams.

Also, the roles are entirely different. The Iceni is a node breaker and command ship designed to house the ETAK. The Diomedes is a tactically flexible strike package with hangar capabilities able to operate independently.

The Diomedes is also most likely designed to share spare parts with other new-gen Tev warships.

Should I go on ? :p

EDIT: damnit ninja'd

Nope, Iceni never had any kind fighterbay.

Well, damn.

Ok, without fighterbay that idea isnt all that good. But one advantage still remains: Repuation.
I mean that ship was THE target in the NTF war, and the techroom entry just boosted that. And regarding the Blueprints: the Iceni was allready under construction when the NTF Rebellion did breakout. And if the administration of the GTVA is similar to what we have today, i think there is a good chance that the blueprints where know to rest of the command personal that approves new ship designs.

I am just a bit sad that no one ever used that ship again except derelict.

Edit: Btw.: A lot of the stuff i see in the TEI seems to be true for the Iceni. For example the duarbility, speed and manouverability regarding sublight and subspace. If i would have been in charge i would have at least build one to test it properly and evaluate its capabilities. After all it DID cause the GTVA serious trouble.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 12, 2013, 06:38:13 pm
Speaking of which, did the fiction viewer work? It occurs to me I haven't verified that anybody actually got to read the Act 3 fiction.

I don't think it worked for me. After I finished the campaign I went to the tech room and looked at the intel, but nothing new was there (everything from WiH1 remained). I just restarted the campaign so I'll see whether it shows up after I finish again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2013, 06:50:28 pm
The fiction viewer is Laporte's journal before each mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on January 12, 2013, 06:56:14 pm
Just to make sure, there aren't supposed to be fiction viewer segments at the beginning of the last 2 missions correct?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 12, 2013, 07:06:20 pm
If that's the case, then yes I have seen her journals. I was actually expecting intel entries. My mistake.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 12, 2013, 07:43:23 pm
See, you have four combat missions in this act which contain very little story and comparably little text. And then you have these dreamscape missions in-between which consist only of text. Seven to ten minutes long. And this is boring.
Well, a lot of the complaints about WiH1 were that there was too much talking during combat-heavy missions. So, we fixed that. Seems like we can't indeed please everyone.

The dreamscape: The story here is superb, foreshadowing stuff and characterizing people, as well as opinions, forces, lore and the world in general. I did not miss any conversation and did not want to. But the execution is flawed: The necessity to fly around is boring, once you enter a conversation you sit still again.
I liked the solar system map (ignoring the crazy texture bugs I sometimes had with it) but the rest...   meeehh  :sigh:
My recommendation would be to replace these sequences by a "ingame menu like level". Displaying the solar system texture in the background, the user could simply be presented with the "ships" currently present in the dreamscape. The "shivan ship scaling up" sequence in the last level shows promise. Basically, take us out of the cockpit, eliminiate the flying around part.
People in WiH1 were complaining that we have too many fiction viewer sequences and wanted something more interactive. We gave em. Again, seems like it's a "can't please everybody" scenario.

I liked the addition of non-combat story missions. You can always skip them if you want. Much better than time dilating through a dialogue chunk.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on January 12, 2013, 07:47:45 pm
Don't have to be completely non-combat either, some 'breather level' with some skippable dialogue is fine too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black Wolf on January 12, 2013, 08:05:20 pm
What makes you think they ever got their hands on the blueprints ? It's a full-bred NTF design, remember?

Lies.
Quote
The Iceni is the NTF command frigate, built under Admiral Bosch's direction at the Freedom shipyards in Polaris, captured by the Neo-Terran Front at the start of their rebellion.

It was built while Bosch was still ostensibly a loyal GTVA officer, of course they have the plans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 12, 2013, 08:30:55 pm
yes i'm sure bosch lodged the plans for his secret command frigate with his local gtva planning department before he started building it in his secret base in the middle of an asteroid field in preparation for his secret plans to rebel
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2013, 08:36:46 pm
I don't think it's super hard to believe it was built as a legitimate GTVA project but with the intent of nabbing it when the rebellion started.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on January 12, 2013, 08:44:19 pm
then why was everyone all surprised when they found a mysterious asteroid and the iceni came out
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on January 12, 2013, 08:49:45 pm
Well it's possible the Iceni itself was built in a shipyard and the asteroid casing was added after the rebellion started. I would think the shock would come more from the realization that the asteroid base contained a warship at all, regardless of it's class.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 12, 2013, 08:53:24 pm
then why was everyone all surprised when they found a mysterious asteroid and the iceni came out

I think GTI knew all about the Iceni and kinda suspected it had gone to ground (inside an asteroid, maybe to get ETAK built?) and wanted to flush it out.

It just doesn't seem like the Polaris shipyards were literally an asteroid.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on January 12, 2013, 11:14:11 pm
I am pretty sure the Iceni was conventionaly build and even saw some combat action during the initial stage of the war. I mean, the Icenis tech room entry suggests that the ship with Bosch in command is a match for every destroyer groupe the GTVA has, this reputation needs to come from somewhere, and i belive that it comes from actual engagements.

Keep in mind, before the Collossus was deployed things looked not even bad for the rebellion. I think Bosch went underground (litteraly) when his troups had half way secured Deneb, so he could study ancient artifacts. And before that he played a active role in the campaign.

Also, i belive that command actually did jump on the bargain Bosch offered: His escape for the retreate of his troups out of Deneb. They just couldnt do it too obvious or officialy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicCuttlefish on January 13, 2013, 05:05:45 am
I am absolutely in awe, not only of the superb story telling and game play, but of the optimization of the technical aspects.

Spoiler:
I love love love love loved the dreamscape missions and especially the last one, I was simultaneously terrified and exhilarated. (I looked back the first run of that mission =P) The whatever the hell it was tube thing was terrifying as well. And once I realized the Vishnans weren't terribly friendly... Just... Amazing. Any extra information about the acid trip would be great, it's really the highlight of this release for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FSW on January 13, 2013, 07:25:03 am
Beam fade appears to be gone in the most recent release. Is this as intended?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 13, 2013, 07:47:06 am
Uh, it's been gone already in the previous release two years ago or so ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 13, 2013, 09:01:47 am
Beam fade appears to be gone in the most recent release. Is this as intended?

Yep. It would've broken a few missions pretty bad.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 13, 2013, 09:05:08 am
Is the Typhon meant to have the new model in this release? It's got the old model in-game for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 13, 2013, 09:25:05 am
It's not BP's job to pack improved retail models, that's MVP's. You'll have the new Typhon if you put it in your MVPs or, for more safety, when it'll be included in the next MVPs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on January 13, 2013, 10:42:04 am
A thought. The Carthage is damaged but captured (I imagine this may be the canonical proceeding of the story), they have the colony ship from AoA which is made of Orion parts. Wouldn't swapping damaged parts from the Carthage with those from that ship (although outdated) allow for a surprise destroyer, a trump card? Although I remember vague mention of the colony ship having a secret mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 13, 2013, 11:10:52 am
So yeah, I finished Act 3 and I guess congratulations are in order! The BP Team have done it again! Raising the bar even higher with Act 3  :yes: :yes2:

I know this review is a bit long; but I felt an awesome Act like this deserved a full fledged review.
My heartfelt review per mission follows:

Spoiler:


Intro (Icarus): The introductory cutscene was top notch, it really gave the magnitude to the event that occured during Delenda Est. And the music choice for the Introduction gave the sense of "once great, but now, reduced to ashes" kind of feeling.

I rate the Intro 8/10 (surpassed by Sunglare)

Dreamscape: All the Dreamscape missions were well crafted and gave a good dose of that little extra immersive experience that I crave for in modern games. To be honest, I never expected such a concept to work out in FS, but I glad to say that I was wrong. I literally listened to every dialog and repeatedly "Fired" to get most of the one-liners as possible. While I strongly think that everyone playing must strive to get all the info in the dreamscapes, the option to simply skip it all was a good move! The dreamscape missions added a nice breather and was a refreshing break from the boring old "Mission->Briefing->Mission" style that we've gotten used to! The music was sublime during the dreamscape missions, and really added to the atmosphere.
The galaxy map (or should I say "solar map") was a really ingenious idea... Although I'm quite disappointing that we only got to see, like, two versions of it (pre- and post-Neptune). I'd love to see it implemented further through the game in some way or the other.
Oh! and how can I forget "Fire to ROCK OUT"! That brought such a grin to my face!

The only critique would be to make the "dream-fighter" faster...It gets quite boring after a while to fly around to get to an entity

All in all, I rate all the Dreamscape missions collectively a 9/10


Nothing is True: So, my first mission running ops for the Fedayeen...cool. At first I thought it was just another boring "Destroy the convoy" kinda mission, but, I was truly surprised! The various strategies; Electronic Warfare, stealth, etc. and the emotional response illicited (Brutally kill the gefs, or let them go; killing 2 Fleet Officers yourself, or let your team-mates do it for you) simply amazing!
While it took several tries to pass the mission, I never felt frustrated or bored... I wondered "what happens if I do that?" and developed many new strategies till I finally finished the mission. By that one mission alone, I felt so awesome, like a badass Deus Ex ninja; Hackin ships and takin names! I could tell that this was a start to a great campaign.

I rate Nothing is True a 8.5/10!


Everything is Permitted: Quite frankly, I never thought we'd be assassinating an Elder anytime soon. It kinda hurt a bit, but the way you carried it out...freaking awesome! Scan the comms so you can intercept encrypted messages, scan the Sensors....EMP flashbang... and it gets better! Scan the weapons subsystem, and you get a neat Mjolnir cannon to play with! Im not kidding, but when I just warped at Artemis for the first time, I thought to myself, "What if some freak accident caused those Mjolnirs to fire at the Elder....LOL" and this was my reaction when I discovered I could actually do it  :wtf: :eek2:  :nervous: However, the Mjolnir missed...and I was, well...****'d.  :hopping:

But I did eventually develop a neat strategy which involved precision timing with the emp flashbang, the missiles, and my guns...and got away unscathed (didn't even have to use Alt-X) :pimp:

I rate Everything is Permitted a 8/10

One Future: So we get to fly another capship again, huh...epic! This mission, while a little less intense than the others in Act 3, was great nevertheless. And my oh my...those cap-ship flares...the feeling of watching swarms of VLS Torpedoes just brush my your ship....priceless . Although I needed a couple of tries with this mission, it was worth watching that huge ass mothership burn. I killed it and every other damn turret, Anacama, fighter...just to capture the base and save innocent lives...Now, that is what I call awesomeness. And, to top it all off, I waited in bated breath as the counter ticked down...10..9..8..No news from the commandos... :hopping:...5...4...3..2.. :shaking:...and then, just as the counter reaches 1... Success! :eek2: Now that is what I call ****ing epic!

I rate One Future a 7/10 (mainly because it was a tad bit boring in the beginning)


Her Finest Hour: Ah now this is the biggie! "Delenda Est all over again" I thought in my head. So we have Artillery (check), Beam cannons of doom (check), Carthage (check). But wait...now we have this whole bunch of other stuff to do to save the day! I must admit that the mission (and the briefing) is kinda overwhelming at first, and you have to keep track of all the hotkeys (which, believe me, are super useful for those having problems with this mission), all the objectives etc. And the mission timer doesn't help the situation :lol: I died a good 10~15 times...But I felt that the mission was so cool...I just wanted more...I tried countless new tactics, new approaches, different orders, etc. And let me tell you. That one Perfect Moment, when I saw the Carthage being pummeled with Mass Drivers. Guass Cannons, Torpedoes from the Arty's, Gunboats and Bombers; its cover blown wide open; defenseless...coupled with that awesome music...

I lost 30 spaceframes that day but...
IT WAS WORTH IT!

This mission was THE BEST MISSION IN ACT 3 for me!

Rating: 11/10 (I Don't give a **** what others think...this was truly epic) :cool:


Eye in the Storm: I considered this mission a kind of a breather...a break of sorts from all the epicness and chaos. The atmospheric effects in this mission were truly top notch, kudos! I liked the concept and the execution was top notch. From the tank selection interface to the orbital strike...truly top notch work! Setting up the turrets and then ambushing the convoy with the guass guns blazing and flak clouds all around...felt very satisfying! Also, this is the first mission where I discovered the power of the UX Accelerator sniping against fighters  :pimp: :yes:

My rating of Eye in the Storm: 7.5/10

Now... :nervous: :eek2: :eek: :shaking: :jaw:


Universal Truth: Mental Integrity: Hello
Now this mission is truly terrifying...from Hallucinations to flicks of startling images. Simply marvelous and terrifying in some strange equation. Watching the Shivans attack Earth, learning their history, turning all that I knew and believed about the Vishnans on its head....wtf  :wtf: :confused:
But let me just say...the execution was impeccable...from the Shivan Node interfaces to the skyboxes of the nebula, then "Saturn" set-piece, and even that brief glimpse of that "Debriefing" screen with "BAAAAAAAA....." written on it, when you pass through one of those nodes....A FRED masterpiece...
Everything felt strange and unusual and ancient...yet everything made sense...it all fit with an unusual harmony.

And also in the end... DAT SKYBOX  :eek: I would die of awesomeness from that skybox.

My Rating of Universal Truth: 9.6/10 (simply a masterpiece)


Spoiler:
War In Heaven: The ending cutscene was good and made me all pumped for acts 4,5,6 ...Simply aweseome.

All in all the Act 3 is a frikkin must play for any FS fan.

The missions were true FRED masterpieces offering tremendous re-play value the likes of which were never before seen in FS. I actually felt "involved" in the missions, and commanding whole scenarios with multiple fleet assets never felt better. I didn't feel bored like I do with the missions which follow the same basic formula over and over... :hopping:

For those having trouble with some missions; think outside the box, make sure you look at most of the HUD guages and most importantly USE YOUR HOTKEYS!
But really, the best approach is just to think with a clear head, and devise a basic strategy on the briefing itself.

The plot twist at the end was truly unexpected for me...the story is truly once for the ages!

Despite what others might say, I urge the BP devs to tone down, but ever so slightly, the "crazy" factor...I enjoyed being "involved" in missions and I'd be very disappointed if we have the "tried and tested formula" in future acts.

There were a few technical issues (Due to the pilot code and what not), but I played the campaign in its entirety at a solid 30 fps (dipping in rare situations), this on my old HD 5770. Just goes to show the level of optimization you guys and the SCP have done!  :nod:

Thank you BP Devs...Thank you for giving me the most memorable gaming experience of my life. :yes2: :) :yes:

And so, ultimately, I'd probably rate BP WiH A3 a 9.8/10
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 13, 2013, 11:34:14 am
A thought. The Carthage is damaged but captured (I imagine this may be the canonical proceeding of the story), they have the colony ship from AoA which is made of Orion parts. Wouldn't swapping damaged parts from the Carthage with those from that ship (although outdated) allow for a surprise destroyer, a trump card? Although I remember vague mention of the colony ship having a secret mission.

Nope, the Carthage was/is a top-of-the line Combat Evaluation warship. I don't think that the parts of a 50-year old incomplete Orion hulk like the Sanctuary is going to do much good to the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 13, 2013, 01:01:28 pm
And even if you wanted to do that, the question is why you would want to. Sanctuary is 50 years old, has spent most of that time in hostile environments, and her combat systems are too old to make her a good choice in a modern combat setting. All you would get is a destroyer-sized target.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicCuttlefish on January 13, 2013, 02:31:13 pm
Didn't the sanctuary
Spoiler:
defect at the end of AoA?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Col.Hornet on January 13, 2013, 02:39:11 pm
Well. I actually regret that I was so enthusiastic about new act. :D Everything that I have hated in BP, came back with double force. Nagari, mysticism, "the Chosen One" stuff :doubt:<I see such things in many games, books, etc.>. Sometimes I have enough of this.


 I know, I know this is a spine of this story but it's not my favourite style of making Freespace-related stories. I simply do not share the BP's phenomenon :D 

But please don't get me wrong. I still like many parts of the story. UEF-GTVA war (I'm a Fed supporter from the beginning :D), politics stuff, UEF's technology and much more. That's why War in Heaven 1 is still the best part of BP in my opinion. I also admire BP's crew for their talent, energy for work and many new technical ideas (some them were very good, others not.) FREDing especially, I've learned a lot from Your missions guys ;) 

That is all. Only my humble opinion. I hope that you will continue your work without any problems :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on January 13, 2013, 02:46:41 pm
To be honest, I have to agree with Hornet. I was expecting something as good as Chrysalis and Apotheosis, but Tenebra isn't that good. Most of the new systems aren't instinctive. This is too much tactics for big battles and events, but our light stealth fighter is too weak to hold us as a field general. Too much depends on our player. And "Nothing is true. Everything is permitted"? I've heard this somewhere. Too much Assasin's Creed... I enjoyed the new graphics, new models, Toutatis with new guns is badass but I prefer previous acts. I hope Act IV will be more like I and II acts of BP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on January 13, 2013, 02:53:36 pm
I hope that Act 4 will be nothing like 1, 2 or 3, but that it is innovative and new yet again like each previous act has been.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FSW on January 13, 2013, 03:09:56 pm
When Acts 4 and 5 are released, will they pull data from our Act 3 save files? Will our choices have consequences?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 13, 2013, 03:44:15 pm
Yes, the plan is to have act 3, 4 and 5 in a single campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on January 13, 2013, 03:47:20 pm
So our choices could affect the final mission? For example

The last stand of Third fleet against the 15th Battlegroup in Earth orbit - Steele destroys the Toutatis but Calder manages to take down the greater part of the battlegroup using aggressive/suicidal tactics and cripples the Atreus.

Based on the choices player has made in previous missions the last mission involves a choice between aiding First fleet in a desperate defence of the secret project from the Phoenicia/Vengeance battlegroup and potentially saving the UEF whilst Steele escapes to fight another day

or

Going all guns blazing to slaughter the remains of the 15th, getting revenge on Steele but potentially losing the war
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Veers on January 13, 2013, 06:01:03 pm
So we should be using a single pilot file for all of BP, or just WiH?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Herra Tohtori on January 13, 2013, 06:45:38 pm
"Nothing is true. Everything is permitted"? I've heard this somewhere. Too much Assasin's Creed...


Well, Assassin's Creed got the phrase from somewhere (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins), and the fact that the phrase originally associated to the Assassins is also referenced to in Blue Planet is more of a case of some similar elements (although Fedayeen and Assassins are actually not all that similar), than any reference or mimicry of Assassin's Creed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 13, 2013, 07:35:05 pm
Well. I actually regret that I was so enthusiastic about new act. :D Everything that I have hated in BP, came back with double force. Nagari, mysticism, "the Chosen One" stuff :doubt:<I see such things in many games, books, etc.>. Sometimes I have enough of this.


 I know, I know this is a spine of this story but it's not my favourite style of making Freespace-related stories. I simply do not share the BP's phenomenon :D 

But please don't get me wrong. I still like many parts of the story. UEF-GTVA war (I'm a Fed supporter from the beginning :D), politics stuff, UEF's technology and much more. That's why War in Heaven 1 is still the best part of BP in my opinion. I also admire BP's crew for their talent, energy for work and many new technical ideas (some them were very good, others not.) FREDing especially, I've learned a lot from Your missions guys ;) 

That is all. Only my humble opinion. I hope that you will continue your work without any problems :D

Rest assured that none of us are a fan of the 'chosen one' trope either. While Laporte will remain central to the narrative - in order to keep the player central to the narrative - she'll never have superpowers or be able to single-handedly change the course of a war by any means beyond those available to the ordinary human. We're always interested in subversion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 13, 2013, 10:12:10 pm
There are plenty of "War Stories" to be found in the community.
 I, for one, am glad the BP crew tries experimenting and weaving all these elements. Mixing spaceships, semi-realistic elements and Cthulhu got my interest hooked, granted I have stopped playing games for "story" a long time ago, so you got a head start on me.
 So far I can only say I liked what you have done with Freespace, the GTVA, Earth, The Shivans, everything.

 I do have a question however: Will we see more "Field Commander" and "Frigate/Cruiser" command missions?

 Lastly, my hats are off to all your FREDers for working their asses off making "new games" within the SFS genre, that's a feat of galactic magnitude from where I stand. To me it's the work, blood and seat put into something that determines if it's art or not, and BP is art on my book thanks to these.

 I look forward to more B.P. Lovercraft. ;) Oh and... DAT ENDING
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 13, 2013, 10:32:33 pm
Being able to C31 Cthulhu sounds quite awesome, I say. Hope BP gives us that chance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: PsychoLandlord on January 14, 2013, 12:16:02 am
First post in a while, just wanted to congratulate the BP crew on the release and offer my praise for act 3. While I can understand why many found the new gameplay elements jarring with how they were introduced, I didn't find them too difficult to get the hang of with reasonable speed. Granted, there were a few restarts here and there, but nothing annoying. Her Finest Hour in particular was excellent, in my opinion.

On top of that, I'd like to acknowledge that I really like the effort you guys have put into making the aliens of BP as, well, alien as possible. Too many people that I know are obsessed with clean, easily understandable origin stories and motives for the Shivans. I prefer them being treated as monolithic and beyond our ken (hurr) for once. At the same time, I like they it wasn't simply stated "You will never understand these beings." Too many authors will simply borrow a page from Lovecraft and slap this element on their alien hellbeasts and assume it makes them scary. An alien that is actually made to be inscrutable and has visible evidence to back this up, as opposed to us being informed that it is, is infinitely more menacing.

The only real criticisms that I can offer are to simply dial back on the in-combat dialog a bit. This was an issue I'd mentioned I had with the first WiH release, and it applies here as well. When conversations are occurring while I'm desperately trying to dodge Auroras after blowing something up, it becomes rather hard to divert attention to the top of the screen to ensure I don't miss lines.

So there. I consider Tenebra an excellent release, and you have my rapt attention with the story. I look forward to seeing where you take it and how things will end for Laporte. And the Gefs still remind me of Third-World Ousters.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: docfu on January 14, 2013, 06:15:36 am
The only real criticisms that I can offer are to simply dial back on the in-combat dialog a bit. This was an issue I'd mentioned I had with the first WiH release, and it applies here as well. When conversations are occurring while I'm desperately trying to dodge Auroras after blowing something up, it becomes rather hard to divert attention to the top of the screen to ensure I don't miss lines.

Actually this does raise a question for me: When you speed the game up using right-shift <>, why doesn't the dialog speed up as well? It seems the dialog usually gets backlogged for a while. I found this on my xth time flying Universal Truth looking for the laughing man.

I guess it's not a game-breaker though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 14, 2013, 10:22:04 am
Each dialog line stays for at least long enough for the ani to play, plus one second or two, IIRC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on January 14, 2013, 10:32:26 am
My only 'complains' probably I don't get to fly some of the new fighters, and the last part a little dark themed.

At least now I know that 1337 on the Masyaf means something
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 14, 2013, 10:59:57 am
I wonder if we ever get to fly alongside the Fedayeen again...The relationship between wingmates was so short...some part of me wanted more of them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicCuttlefish on January 14, 2013, 03:03:55 pm
I wonder if we ever get to fly alongside the Fedayeen again...The relationship between wingmates was so short...some part of me wanted more of them.
I really hope so, I found myself getting quite attached to them, especially Thorn.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 14, 2013, 04:53:10 pm
Whenever I speak to Al Da'wa in the dreamscape, I feel like I'm talking to a vortigaunt from Half-Life 2...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: flyerken on January 14, 2013, 05:07:24 pm
I'm having problems in the second mission after I hack the gun, how do I fire it? it just counts back down to 0 and I lose control. What am I missing?

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 14, 2013, 05:07:38 pm
Laporte should stay adequate.

As an aside, you a$$h01es own me a good night's sleep, I was not expecting the acid trip when I played the finale yesterday... at night, full stomach, with headphones and almost asleep.
 The overall mission elcor/eldritch factor let me sleep for a total of one hour yesterday :blah:
  Head aches aside, nice job, not too many games keep me awake at night.

 Now if only I had something for this strange pain in the back of my left eye...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on January 14, 2013, 05:14:38 pm
Laporte should stay adequate.
:lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Suongadon on January 14, 2013, 05:20:14 pm
I'm having problems in the second mission after I hack the gun, how do I fire it? it just counts back down to 0 and I lose control. What am I missing?

command menu, tell it to attack your target.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ravenholme on January 15, 2013, 03:13:58 am
I'm having problems in the second mission after I hack the gun, how do I fire it? it just counts back down to 0 and I lose control. What am I missing?

It is now a ship you can control via the ordinary commanding interface, as if it were a wingman. Target the Target and order it to fire.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 15, 2013, 07:06:22 am
I wonder if we ever get to fly alongside the Fedayeen again...The relationship between wingmates was so short...some part of me wanted more of them.
I really hope so, I found myself getting quite attached to them, especially Thorn.

Same here, It would be awesome even if we get to atleast run joint ops with the Fedayeen in future acts
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2013, 09:51:56 am
I'm having problems in the second mission after I hack the gun, how do I fire it? it just counts back down to 0 and I lose control. What am I missing?

This is our fault and we are bad for not teaching it better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 15, 2013, 10:04:08 am
I'm having problems in the second mission after I hack the gun, how do I fire it? it just counts back down to 0 and I lose control. What am I missing?

This is our fault and we are bad for not teaching it better.

Hmm, It could be an easy fix? Training message for a few seconds (like about calling in 3 Fleet air assets in HFH)?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on January 15, 2013, 12:00:17 pm
I think the problem stems from the directives gauge sometimes cutting off the hint "Use Comms Menu" if you're using fullscreen res or FreeSpace decides its not going to show it. I will make sure there is a more clearer hint next patch. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 15, 2013, 12:02:29 pm
It was also a pain in the ass until I figured out that I had to be "close" to the mjolnirs and not the target. But that's probably just my dumbish nature.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2013, 12:40:35 pm
I think the problem stems from the directives gauge sometimes cutting off the hint "Use Comms Menu" if you're using fullscreen res or FreeSpace decides its not going to show it. I will make sure there is a more clearer hint next patch. :)

Oh if that hint was there then we're not dumb (YOU are awesome)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TheDemon on January 15, 2013, 05:09:09 pm
Laporte still has access to the dreamscape at the end of Act 3, right? So we can still get Fedayeen updates and intel stuff that a regular pilot wouldn't know through dreamscape interludes, in theory anyway.

then why was everyone all surprised when they found a mysterious asteroid and the iceni came out

They weren't surprised at all. You remember how freaking coy Command was during that mission?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 16, 2013, 07:51:26 am
Laporte still has access to the dreamscape at the end of Act 3, right? So we can still get Fedayeen updates and intel stuff that a regular pilot wouldn't know through dreamscape interludes, in theory anyway.


I don't think Laporte has access to Dreamscape anymore  :(. She'd need access/connection to the CASSANDRA matrix.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on January 16, 2013, 09:09:45 am
My thoughts will echo most of what's already been said, so I won't repeat them, except to remark on the last mission a little. (MEGA SPOILERS)

Spoiler:
Hallucinations, mental instability and so forth are my deepest fear, and so this mission struck a personal chord with me. It had me on the edge of my seat throughout the entire thing, and I didn't link to one of the Shivan data packets for fear that Laporte would go insane. I'm going to have to play that mission again to see what I missed and what possibilities there are (I might even look behind me when Ken tells me not to, though if someone wants to tell me what I'll see in advance I won't complain!). It was a surreal experience, managing to answer (if only partially) many questions that have been around since the retail FS2 campaign. Though I of course feel no closer to understanding the full mystery of the Shivans, Vishnans and Brahmans, and now the Terminal Protocol, and this "first apocalypse" that was mentioned, I do feel like I have more information, and am content in that. It definitely evoked a feeling of being part of some much, much larger puzzle, when the retail campaigns didn't since I was young when I played them and so most of the implications went over my head.

But anyway, that was a wonderful acid trip and I commend you on all that has gone into it.

On a more general note, while playing each mission I remember marveling at what the events editor window must look like in FRED. So much complexity. Kudos!
Act 3 was superb, and though it does suffer from overload in some of the missions, I remember feeling satisfied once I finally managed to work things out and complete each one after a few tries.

Thanks to everyone involved, you've raised the bar again!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 16, 2013, 10:38:16 am
So, volume is down to be barely hearable, lights are on...after one trip to my toilette I'll start Universal Truth...wish me luck and if I don't post again: It was an honour  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 16, 2013, 11:20:53 am
So, volume is down to be barely hearable, lights are on...after one trip to my toilette I'll start Universal Truth...wish me luck and if I don't post again: It was an honour  :lol:

So, how was it?  :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 16, 2013, 11:26:04 am
Uh...still trying to escape...but Laporte is...well, something like rec0vert41! dunno...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on January 16, 2013, 11:26:47 am
Dear God Crybertrance, give him time to make sense of it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 16, 2013, 12:00:47 pm
So...
I survived, I didn't wet myself and I'll be able to sleep tonight, but after the outro antipodes crashed and the game too, but so be it.
I escaped the sequence with my mind intact, but then again I read several spoilers and so on.

Honestly, if you don't want to spoil yourself, don't read the tags, but geeze, I was half tempted to turn and I admit, when it was time to escape I felt...panicked and did not know how I should flee, but then again I thought about what was the reason of the mission, choose my exit point and here we go.

BP-Team, you created a truly magnificent mod, fun to play and it will even be more fun to replay it to find different approaches, and as always, I'll extract the missions, look at them in Fred and fuddle around.
Thank you for Tenebra
Spoiler:
= Netreba...will he be the big unknown, 'cause I guess Byrne will stay loyal?
I'm looking forward for future releases.
Out of passing curiosity, the Karuna Mk2 is included in the modpack?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 16, 2013, 12:14:06 pm
Quote
Spoiler:
...though if someone wants to tell me what I'll see in advance I won't complain!

Spoiler:
Madness... and then you'll have to cut your arms and legs off to complete the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 16, 2013, 12:49:49 pm
WTF?
Finished the campaign, the game crashed after the ending cutscene and now I cannot even acces the mainhall?


[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SaltyWaffles on January 16, 2013, 08:33:04 pm
The FREDding for Tenebra is insane. Even on my first time through each mission, I was in awe of just how intricate it must have been. Universal Truth is STILL an enigma to me...I mean, having each scene separated by something like 200+ kilometers, with two dozen juggernauts in the first scene alone making my computer cry? I still have no idea how it was all pulled off in *one* mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 17, 2013, 06:14:53 am
crizza: you've hit a red-alert pilot file issue, here's a thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83354.0) with more details.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 17, 2013, 10:09:46 am
What bugged me...
Is it the Toutatis or the...Eris(that's the name of Netrebas Solaris, wasn't it?) in the ending sequence?
Shouldn't the Toutatis be at Neptune and if not, where is the ship of Netreba?

And how old is Noemi?
Spoiler:
In act two in the section with the red and black ands, I think she was four and heard Ken...in Universal Truth he/they said, Noemi was created/shaped by them her entire life. So ist she 18 or maybe older? I can't believe that Bosch and his other crewmembers who became Ken joined the Shivans and the other day they are Ken...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 17, 2013, 10:28:26 am
What bugged me...
Is it the Toutatis or the...Eris(that's the name of Netrebas Solaris, wasn't it?) in the ending sequence?
Shouldn't the Toutatis be at Neptune and if not, where is the ship of Netreba?


The Toutatis is at Mars getting a refit I guess (the Mass Drivers are getting tacked on)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 17, 2013, 10:29:16 am
It is the Toutatis in the ending sequence. It was there being retrofitted with the big mass drivers you see. Keep in mind that Neptune is just a subspace jump away, ie seconds or minutes.

Eris could be anywhere else. There are many places to defend and I don't think 2nd Fleet HQ need two Solarises on station at all times.

EDIT: ninja'd
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 17, 2013, 10:43:06 am
Damn shame, haven't read that.
Is that the reason why we have a Solaris#Toutatis and so on in Fred? I would look it up via F3 ingame, but that malloc thing prevents this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 17, 2013, 10:50:47 am
Damn shame, haven't read that.
Is that the reason why we have a Solaris#Toutatis and so on in Fred? I would look it up via F3 ingame, but that malloc thing prevents this.

The Solaris#Toutatis is the regular Solaris with the added Mass Driver guns (both on the model, as well as in the tables).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 18, 2013, 08:21:01 am
I'm currently reading about the weapons of BP.
To make it short: I have read it on this board several time that the Tevs are better with beam weapons, but the Zods are the reactor experts.
Taken this for granted, how came this along?
During the second incursion, the Zod beams where discribed as outperforming their terran counterparts by a fair margin?
Or are the Tevs just better with beams, because we haven't seen any new Zod weapons?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 18, 2013, 11:19:39 am
Zod beams outperform Terran beams because they weren't holding them back like the Terrans were.  The Terrans built their beams with backwards compatibility in mind, and made them weaker as a result.  Just compare the Orion with the Typhon.  The Orion mounts 6 beam cannons.  The Typhon has power grid issues mounting two. 

Same goes for cruisers.  Even moden Vasudan cruisers (Mentu) mount no capital-grade beam cannons.  The Aeolus happily carries two, and both the Great War cruisers mount one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 18, 2013, 11:34:32 am
So it is rediculous to think they will retrofit their ships any time in the future...a pity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on January 18, 2013, 12:06:31 pm
Why retrofit old ships when you can make new ones?
Which begs the question: the Tevs made all kinds of new ships and strategies to fight Shivans. The Zods didn't. Why?
Did the Threat Exigency Initiatives not apply to them?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 18, 2013, 12:14:49 pm
Why retrofit old ships when you can make new ones?
Which begs the question: the Tevs made all kinds of new ships and strategies to fight Shivans. The Zods didn't. Why?
Did the Threat Exigency Initiatives not apply to them?

:headdesk:

Okay, I just have to ask, did you read any of the previous discussions about the Vasudans in BP? Because, as we've said again and again, as we mentioned in the supplementary fiction on the BP site, the Zods have a larger, on average more modern fleet than the Terrans.

The reason you haven't seen any of it yet is because you didn't have to see them. They have no part in the story so far, and so we'll keep not showing them until we've really nailed down what we want to give them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 18, 2013, 12:33:08 pm
Can't wait to see that :)

Edit: How far ahead are the Vasudans in terms of Nagari? Knowing about and even contacting Noemi is...well, a feat for itself, although I think the Fedayeen(I guess I spelled this word wrong) let them in...but then again, that GEF Girl entered the dreamscape all by herself.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 18, 2013, 06:41:41 pm
Why retrofit old ships when you can make new ones?
Which begs the question: the Tevs made all kinds of new ships and strategies to fight Shivans. The Zods didn't. Why?
Did the Threat Exigency Initiatives not apply to them?

:headdesk:

Okay, I just have to ask, did you read any of the previous discussions about the Vasudans in BP? Because, as we've said again and again, as we mentioned in the supplementary fiction on the BP site, the Zods have a larger, on average more modern fleet than the Terrans.

The reason you haven't seen any of it yet is because you didn't have to see them. They have no part in the story so far, and so we'll keep not showing them until we've really nailed down what we want to give them.

About the :headdesk: comment...

Not everyone here is a constant member of the BP community. It can be months, or even up to a year between releases. I'm not going to be pouring over BP background continuity two months from now. Sometimes it pays to be a little n00b friendly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 19, 2013, 02:15:00 am
Maybe you should read everything in there (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_Planet_Extras_Portal) and come back afterward.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on January 19, 2013, 02:28:39 am
Random tangent, not at all related:

I didn't realize that parts of WiH part 1 were remastered. I quite like the new Sunglare, and Luna City is gorgeous. Kudos to the team, again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 19, 2013, 08:49:56 am
It is the Toutatis in the ending sequence. It was there being retrofitted with the big mass drivers you see.
Though I must say I can't see that these would have any tactical impact to speak about at this point. I know not to interpret too much into table files, the weaponry could easily change until the next release, but two Narayana Mass Drivers don't look very impressive to me, compared to the sheer amounts of ****load a Solaris can already release with standard armament.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 19, 2013, 09:07:59 am
It is the Toutatis in the ending sequence. It was there being retrofitted with the big mass drivers you see.
Though I must say I can't see that these would have any tactical impact to speak about at this point. I know not to interpret too much into table files, the weaponry could easily change until the next release, but two Narayana Mass Drivers don't look very impressive to me, compared to the sheer amounts of ****load a Solaris can already release with standard armament.

I think the Narayana MD's are just placeholders. I think we are going to see a MassDriver#Solaris in he next release...Those are going to make you wish you were never born!  ;7
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Penfold on January 19, 2013, 09:56:41 am
I just wanted to say; I fnished...it was not easy at all...and it is definitely kick-ass+++...and it left me in greatest anticipation for Acts 4 and 5.
I had no glitches or hang-ups at all. All Hail the BP Team!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 19, 2013, 11:29:18 am
I think the Narayana MD's are just placeholders.
I strongly hope so.

Quote
I think we are going to see a MassDriver#Solaris in he next release...Those are going to make you wish you were never born!  ;7
You mean they are going to make the Tevs wish they were never born. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicCuttlefish on January 19, 2013, 03:20:26 pm
I think the Narayana MD's are just placeholders.
I strongly hope so.

Quote
I think we are going to see a MassDriver#Solaris in he next release...Those are going to make you wish you were never born!  ;7
You mean they are going to make the Tevs wish they were never born. :D

My guess is that they'll be primarily long range, as that seems to be how Tev capital weapons work best, far out of beam range and such. Maybe they'll accelerate the projectiles to near c or something, that'd be quite cool.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on January 19, 2013, 03:25:10 pm
I think the Narayana MD's are just placeholders.
I strongly hope so.

Quote
I think we are going to see a MassDriver#Solaris in he next release...Those are going to make you wish you were never born!  ;7
You mean they are going to make the Tevs wish they were never born. :D
I can't see it being different. The model is close, if not exactly the same as the Mass Drivers on the Narayana.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 19, 2013, 03:48:50 pm
I can't see it being different. The model is close, if not exactly the same as the Mass Drivers on the Narayana.
That does not necessarily mean anything in my opinion. There must be something special about these guns. I mean, come on. Two mere mass drivers? That is nothing, great firing range or not. Any corvette could easily withstand fire from two mass drivers for long enough to come into beam range. Not to speak of destroyers. Plus: They're obviously directed straight ahead and only straight ahead. What if the enemy comes in from another direction.

I just can't see any tactical advantage here. These are defenitely placeholders.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on January 19, 2013, 03:53:13 pm
Two mere mass drivers? They're obviously directed straight ahead and only straight ahead.
Two forward-facing Mass Drivers, the Karuna and Narayana are no different in this regard.

Quote
Any corvette could easily withstand fire from two mass drivers for long enough to come into beam range.
Because a Solaris is going to be fighting other ships on its own.

Quote
What if the enemy comes in from another direction.
Again, the Karuna and Narayana are no different in this regard.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 19, 2013, 05:17:57 pm
I think people underestimate the firepower of the Narayana's mass drivers.  They're not beam cannons, but they're still pretty powerful.

Also, dat range.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 19, 2013, 05:28:06 pm
Maek Tri-Barrled chaingun Solaris mezz dverz plz, kthxby.

 On a more serious note, you guys seem to underestimate the Narayana mass drivers, they are both powerful and out-range beam weaponry by several Kms. Allowing a Solaris to fight at least two targets (One at Missile and the other at Artillery ranges) at the same time efficiently, giving it a greater threat level on the "field".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on January 20, 2013, 03:52:50 am
Not sure how much of this should be in spoiler tags so I'm going to put the lot in:

Spoiler:
Something I've been trying to wrap my head around that is bugging me is Ken's contradicting motivations. For instance, it was Ken himself who informs you in Act 3 that the GTVA are essentially trying to eliminate Vishnan-influenced elements in Sol (or at least that's how I interpreted it). But this is a good thing. This should play right into his hands, or the Shivan's hands I should say. It might not be clear what Ken's end-goal is, but one thing that seems to be pretty clear is that he is thouroughly anti-Vishnan. (I say 'he', 'it' would probably be a better descriptor).

So why then does Ken directly instruct you in part 1 to "destroy the GTVA"? I found it really weird when he says this, not least because as a Shivan metamind the success or failure of one trivial human faction in a trivial war seems completely inconsequential (relative to him). Asides from that, assuming he actually gives a crap he should want the GTVA to win and steer Sol and the rest of humanity away from Vishnan influence (if that's even possible).

One thought I had was that the element of Ken that is Aken Bosch is still prejudiced against the GTVA and wants to destroy it, but that seems far too narrow-minded and pointless. It got me thinking though, how exactly does a Human-Shivan metamind work? Is it possible it can suffer from split personalities, each with different goals that can potentially conflict with one another? Perhaps the fragility of a human consciousness can cause the metamind to hiccup every once in a while. I'm sure we'll see in the end that Ken ultimately has a goal and a plan to achieve it, but I kind of like the idea that a Shivan can be made susceptible to human error.

I was sure from the beginning that the GTVA had much stronger motives for going to war than just for the lulz and Act 3 pretty much confirmed it for me. It's sad because the UEF is obviously the much more stable, evolved society, but that its
Spoiler:
Vishnan infection
has pretty much tainted it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on January 20, 2013, 05:13:34 am
Two forward-facing Mass Drivers, the Karuna and Narayana are no different in this regard.
Both the Karuna and the Narayana have six mass drivers respectively gauss cannons. Also, Frigates are a lot more maneuverable than destroyers are. They can turn around quite easily when something tries to outflank them. A Solaris cannot do so.


Quote
Because a Solaris is going to be fighting other ships on its own.
No, when a Solaris is in the field, there will be a lot of firepower be deployed already. That is why two additional mass drivers are surely better than nothing, but not so impressive that you would need to be that excited about.


Allowing a Solaris to fight at least two targets (One at Missile and the other at Artillery ranges) at the same time efficiently, giving it a greater threat level on the "field".
I'm sure we all agree that a Solaris is capable of fighting numerous targets at a time even without two mass drivers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on January 20, 2013, 07:43:08 am
Both the Karuna and the Narayana have six mass drivers respectively gauss cannons. Also, Frigates are a lot more maneuverable than destroyers are. They can turn around quite easily when something tries to outflank them. A Solaris cannot do so.
Two Mass Drivers are two Mass Drivers. I wouldn't necessarily count the four Gauss Cannons both ships have because of their different role in combat, that being of removing subsystems rather than dealing raw hull damage, of which they have 1/4th the damage per shot.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 20, 2013, 08:06:47 am
And Solarises have 12 Gattler turrets for anti-subsystem duties.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 21, 2013, 08:52:57 am
I'm currently reading about the weapons of BP.
To make it short: I have read it on this board several time that the Tevs are better with beam weapons, but the Zods are the reactor experts.
Taken this for granted, how came this along?
During the second incursion, the Zod beams where discribed as outperforming their terran counterparts by a fair margin?
Or are the Tevs just better with beams, because we haven't seen any new Zod weapons?

Just going back to this for one post: table-wise, the zod S-type and Slash-type beams still outperform their next-gen terran counterpart.

Regarding the Toutatis' mass drivers: it essentially gives Calder a Destroyer-sized artillery, which is much more difficult to deal with than a Narayana. While I don't think they are a major game changer, it gives Calder another tactical option.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 21, 2013, 12:25:17 pm
I'm currently reading about the weapons of BP.
To make it short: I have read it on this board several time that the Tevs are better with beam weapons, but the Zods are the reactor experts.
Taken this for granted, how came this along?
During the second incursion, the Zod beams where discribed as outperforming their terran counterparts by a fair margin?
Or are the Tevs just better with beams, because we haven't seen any new Zod weapons?

Just going back to this for one post: table-wise, the zod S-type and Slash-type beams still outperform their next-gen terran counterpart.

Regarding the Toutatis' mass drivers: it essentially gives Calder a Destroyer-sized artillery, which is much more difficult to deal with than a Narayana. While I don't think they are a major game changer, it gives Calder another tactical option.

The Tevs use paired s and slash beams - the Hyperion carries two sblues, the Diomedes 4 bull frosts, while the Mentu only (from what we've seen) carries one svas and the Sobek two vslash
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 21, 2013, 12:33:07 pm
I'm currently reading about the weapons of BP.
To make it short: I have read it on this board several time that the Tevs are better with beam weapons, but the Zods are the reactor experts.
Taken this for granted, how came this along?
During the second incursion, the Zod beams where discribed as outperforming their terran counterparts by a fair margin?
Or are the Tevs just better with beams, because we haven't seen any new Zod weapons?

Just going back to this for one post: table-wise, the zod S-type and Slash-type beams still outperform their next-gen terran counterpart.

Regarding the Toutatis' mass drivers: it essentially gives Calder a Destroyer-sized artillery, which is much more difficult to deal with than a Narayana. While I don't think they are a major game changer, it gives Calder another tactical option.

The Tevs use paired s and slash beams - the Hyperion carries two sblues, the Diomedes 4 bull frosts, while the Mentu only (from what we've seen) carries one svas and the Sobek two vslash
A Mentu with a SVas is a beast. And keep in mind, that the Mentu and Sobek are Capellaships, sadly, we know nothing about new Zods ships in BP.
Only time will tell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 21, 2013, 01:19:48 pm
The Mentu featured in Nothing is True doesn't have any capship beam.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 21, 2013, 03:44:41 pm
The Mentu featured in Nothing is True doesn't have any capship beam.
I never said that.
I once replaced the Mentu in Rebels&Renegades with a Mentu with beams...goodbye Hinton^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 21, 2013, 04:07:23 pm
If I had to guess I'd say they don't have beams because their power systems cant support Vasudan designs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 21, 2013, 04:39:12 pm
That was an answer to Mars, who said
while the Mentu only (from what we've seen) carries one svas
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on January 21, 2013, 09:06:40 pm
You can see capship beam armed Mentus in Pandora's Box, armed with a pair of SVas, and in Vassago's Dirge armed with a single VSlash.

And for the Karuna gauss cannons, while the tech shows 5 gauss cannons, 1 is on the tail, so only 4 are facing forward, which means the forward facing ones deals about the same damage as one more mass driver.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on January 22, 2013, 02:23:10 am
Not sure how much of this should be in spoiler tags so I'm going to put the lot in:

Spoiler:
Something I've been trying to wrap my head around that is bugging me is Ken's contradicting motivations. For instance, it was Ken himself who informs you in Act 3 that the GTVA are essentially trying to eliminate Vishnan-influenced elements in Sol (or at least that's how I interpreted it). But this is a good thing. This should play right into his hands, or the Shivan's hands I should say. It might not be clear what Ken's end-goal is, but one thing that seems to be pretty clear is that he is thouroughly anti-Vishnan. (I say 'he', 'it' would probably be a better descriptor).

So why then does Ken directly instruct you in part 1 to "destroy the GTVA"? I found it really weird when he says this, not least because as a Shivan metamind the success or failure of one trivial human faction in a trivial war seems completely inconsequential (relative to him). Asides from that, assuming he actually gives a crap he should want the GTVA to win and steer Sol and the rest of humanity away from Vishnan influence (if that's even possible).

One thought I had was that the element of Ken that is Aken Bosch is still prejudiced against the GTVA and wants to destroy it, but that seems far too narrow-minded and pointless. It got me thinking though, how exactly does a Human-Shivan metamind work? Is it possible it can suffer from split personalities, each with different goals that can potentially conflict with one another? Perhaps the fragility of a human consciousness can cause the metamind to hiccup every once in a while. I'm sure we'll see in the end that Ken ultimately has a goal and a plan to achieve it, but I kind of like the idea that a Shivan can be made susceptible to human error.

I was sure from the beginning that the GTVA had much stronger motives for going to war than just for the lulz and Act 3 pretty much confirmed it for me. It's sad because the UEF is obviously the much more stable, evolved society, but that its
Spoiler:
Vishnan infection
has pretty much tainted it.
Spoiler:
Remember that Ken also believes that GTVA victory will be the end of mankind.
With the GTVA attack on Earth being only days away, that is the more immediate problem. The "Vishnan infection" is more of the mid- to longterm problem that can be dealt with later, if the UEF survives the war.
Besides, getting rid of Vishnan influence in Sol is only part of the GTVA agenda.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 22, 2013, 03:26:15 am
Spoiler:
What does destroying the GTVA mean anyway?  Literally wipe out every non-Sol Human & Vasudan?  That seems extreme to me (although Ken is kinda Shivany).  Or is it about breaking the treaty between the two races? That also seems odd given the comments regarding the 1st incursion being designed to encourage/force co-operation between the two races.  Would a three part alliance of UEF/Tev/Zod with a new treaty count as destroying the GTVA?  Or with the UEF (minus Vishnan influenced Elders?) replacing the Tevs?  Iunno...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 22, 2013, 12:11:47 pm
You can see capship beam armed Mentus in Pandora's Box, armed with a pair of SVas, and in Vassago's Dirge armed with a single VSlash.
So?  Neither of those are BP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 22, 2013, 12:36:42 pm
 I am under the impression that:
Spoiler:
the reference to a binary outcome on UT meant that the GTA/VI were either going to be wiped out or one was going to absorb the other, becoming a sort of cultural hegemony.
 In FS2, don't the Vasudans feel like they have become some kind of pet to the humans? Khonsu II is (or was) a human fanatic, this lead to the abolition of several Vasudan customs, and their absorption into the GTVA command chain, just look at how the entire Imperium had become a branch under the General Assembly.
 Post-Capella, the Human half of the GTVA became a dictatorship, doing everything in the name of security for the future of mankind, yet oppressing any movement that would threaten their position as "Guardians of Man".
 The UEF was isolated (by chance) because the Shivishnans saw some sort of potential in Sol, and it's program for a better future for humanity (It was somewhere on the website.)
 The UEF, unlike the GTVA, has cultured a variety of governments on it's "garden."
 Inside the Sol system we can find: United Earth; Mars (whatever gov. it has.); Jovian Republic and the Gaian Effort. 4 different governments, with different ideologies on the same system, and most of them cooperate with each other for the benefit of themselves and others.
 My opinion is that the Vishnans saw the potential in the GTA's better future program and had Sol isolated, where they could use the already established philosophies such as Ubuntu, to drive the human race on the direction they wanted.
 The Shivans, Destroyers (and Preservers both) see the UEF's creative potential as the key to fill the final responsibility: Creation, the role of Brahma.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 22, 2013, 12:39:46 pm
In FS2, don't the Vasudans feel like they have become some kind of pet to the humans? Khonsu II is (or was) a human fanatic, this lead to the abolition of several Vasudan customs, and their absorption into the GTVA command chain, just look at how the entire Imperium had become a branch under the General Assembly.
Wut. Nothing you said here ever happened. The Emperor never abolished Zod customs, although the Zod culture progressively started to become more similara to the Terran's ; and the Imperium never was a branch of the General Terran Assembly. All three of the General Terran Assembly, Vasudan Imperium and Security Council form the GTVA as per the Beta Aquilae Convention.

Post-Capella, the Human half of the GTVA became a dictatorship, doing everything in the name of security for the future of mankind, yet oppressing any movement that would threaten their position as "Guardians of Man".
They didn't became a dictatorship, they never ceased to be one, all the way back from the beginning of the T-V war. At least in fact. Technically, the GTVA is a democracy, but AFAIK they are still under martial law.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 22, 2013, 12:40:31 pm
The GTVA's a democracy* though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on January 22, 2013, 03:59:26 pm
It's a little unfair to judge the harshness of the GTVA's government considering their situation, living with the threat of extinction at any time. Remember, Sol has more resources and population that the rest of the colonies combined. The GTVA was out dealing with the very real possibility extermination, averted only through collapsing the jump nodes. We're also viewing this war from mostly one side, and from an unreliable narrator who interjects her own opinions without knowledge of the entire scope of the war.

It's worth noting that in Freespace 2 canon, Petrarch mentions a massive Shivan fleeting attempting to break through to Vega. Even if a holocaust wasn't the Shivans main objective at Capella, it probably would have happened anyway had not the GTVA fought tooth and nail. From their government's perspective, they won, validating their world view even if the civilian population center was traumatized and stunned into apathy. When you've stared down the barrel of the apocalypse, how can that not shape your world view? It plays into their perspective that the UEF are dangerous because their shiny beacon of hope simply won't work outside of the Sol system.

Quote
Any peaceful attempts to extend the Ubuntu Party's control outside of Sol would result in the total collapse of their sociopolitical simulation system, which has been painstakingly refined and parametrized to handle the Sol system alone. The Party would be unable to govern and rapidly lose control of its new citizens. The resultant anarchy would unacceptably compromise our defenses.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on January 22, 2013, 10:28:32 pm
From reading what the tech room has to say, the Terran bloc of the GTVA is on the verge of societal collapse. The only thing really holding them together is the prospect of reuniting with Earth. That's one thing all the Terrans can agree on and that's what the GTVA is focusing on.

If the GTVA falls, the Terran race will be nigh-on defenseless against the Shivans. They need the GTVA's military power to defend themselves. Not to mention the utter chaos and civil wars that would erupt among the colonies if the GTVA fell apart, resulting in the loss of millions as well as precious supplies. That's the other side of the moral conflict.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with their actions, but the GTVA isn't doing what they're doing for the sake of being oppressive. They have real reasons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on January 23, 2013, 04:49:44 am
You might want to update the Troubleshooting topic, as it contains outdated information like inferno builds.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 29, 2013, 08:45:23 am
Please tell me I don't have to create a new pilot...again.


[attachment deleted by a basterd]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 29, 2013, 11:20:12 am
Please tell me I don't have to create a new pilot...again.

Fortunately...nope  :nod:

However, I appears you are using the cockpit mod thingy for BP...Try running without that...I've had many crashes because of the conflicting tables and what not.

E: Scratch that...clearly you are not... :banghead:  Something other than the pilot file is causing the (crash? Malloc Failed?)...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 29, 2013, 12:11:30 pm
Please tell me I don't have to create a new pilot...again.

Fortunately...nope  :nod:

However, I appears you are using the cockpit mod thingy for BP...Try running without that...I've had many crashes because of the conflicting tables and what not.

E: Scratch that...clearly you are not... :banghead:  Something other than the pilot file is causing the (crash? Malloc Failed?)...
Uh...I guess it was something with antipodes again, will reproduce the error.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 30, 2013, 08:48:25 am
I think i'll do a clean reinstall of everything when i get around to playing Tenebra. (http://www.skymall.com/shopping/detail.htm?pid=102981396&c=)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 30, 2013, 08:54:06 am
You know, I did that 'cause I reinstalled everything, started with the OS...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on January 31, 2013, 05:08:36 pm
Does the Indus falling into the Sun after a crash jump, and its crew being rescued by the Masyaf, has anything to do with the intro of Descent 3 ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 31, 2013, 05:10:38 pm
Does the Indus falling into the Sun after a crash jump, and its crew being rescued by the Masyaf, has anything to do with the intro of Descent 3 ?

No, does that happen in Descent 3?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NGTM-1R on January 31, 2013, 05:12:04 pm
No, does that happen in Descent 3?

Well, the old Pyro GX does the solar nosedive too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on January 31, 2013, 05:40:00 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSlzKON8lLk

Damn I loved that game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on January 31, 2013, 05:55:30 pm
Just finished Tenebra on my friend's computer. I thought the writing was a little bit weaker than WiH 1+2 and you could of done a better job explaining the new mechanics, but other than that I have no complaints. Every single mission was unique and very well-designed. In particular, One Future stands out as the best FreeSpace mission I've ever played--and this is coming from a guy who's played through Silent Threat Reborn, Derelict, Age of Aquarius, Procyon Insurgency, and several other excellent campaigns.

At this point, i'd be willing to pay as much as $60 for AoA and WiH (still glad they're free though!). Blue Planet has a better narrative than any other game I've played, including ones with good story-lines, and even manages to beat many novels (which almost invariably have better stories than games).

Seriously, amazing job. You've taken a decade-old game engine and created something at least as good as many modern AAA titles (if a lot shorter). :yes:

Side note: The conversation between Noemi and
Spoiler:
Samuel Bei

seemed like a veiled attack on Christianity or perhaps organized religion in general.
Spoiler:
Samuel looks upon the Vishnans as holy beings, calling them the embodiment of good (or something that basically means that) and refusing to judge them harshly when they abandon humanity to the Shivans. The obvious parallel would be the Christian God damning people to eternal torment that eclipses any of their sins by several orders of magnitude while claiming that he loves everybody and is good.
I apologize if that offends anybody, but that was the way I interpreted it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 31, 2013, 06:23:58 pm
Afaik. Vishnans are based on... well, Vishnu! Excerpt, courtesy of Wikipedia: "The Vishnu Sahasranama declares Vishnu as Paramatman (supreme soul) and Parameshwara (supreme God). It describes Vishnu as the All-Pervading essence of all beings, the master of—and beyond—the past, present and future, one who supports, sustains and governs the Universe and originates and develops all elements within. This illustrates the omnipresent characteristic of Vishnu. Vishnu governs the aspect of preservation and sustenance of the universe, so he is called "Preserver of the universe"."

The Kurukshetra War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War) and the Bhagavad Gita (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita) might give you somethings to think about regarding the... personalities of the Vishnans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on January 31, 2013, 06:38:01 pm
I know the Vishnans aren't based on the Christian God. I was referring to how
Spoiler:
Bei was absolutely convinced they were good despite much evidence to the contrary, and he blamed humanity for their anger and dismissal; the whole conversation was reminiscent of a Christian fundamentalist arguing with an atheist (although in this case both people believed in the Vishnans)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on January 31, 2013, 06:39:31 pm
Arrgh damn messed up computer won't let me edit posts...

Well, I think Battuta's watching this thread right now. Hopefully he'll address that particular point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 01, 2013, 01:03:40 am
I think they may have been going for brainwashed, though I also mean no offense to Christians, myself being a Christian and having been mildly offended. (at least initially)

It seemed like they were going less for a 'lul im now a remote controlled vishanan drone' and more like he actually believed what he was saying on the deepest of possible levels.  Which when I think about it makes it all the more disturbing to me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 01, 2013, 06:09:36 am
I wasn't bashing Christianity, although I felt like the subtext was—well, maybe I'm overanalyzing it.

Spoiler:
I thought the Vishnans altered Samuel's brain to make him completely loyal to them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 01, 2013, 01:19:10 pm
Yeah, more or less what I was thinking.  Disturbingly effective it seems.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 01, 2013, 01:23:52 pm
Really, who could trust someone who'd been in lifelong Nagari contact with an alien power to be objective?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 01, 2013, 01:34:16 pm
(Which, conveniently, can be applied for the both of them)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: bigchunk1 on February 01, 2013, 01:59:51 pm
Yea, Laporte is going to betray her people and become the next kerrigan queen of the shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on February 02, 2013, 12:53:41 pm
Well act one was called Chrysalis...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 02, 2013, 01:42:30 pm
Simms: You are beyond redemption, I'll see you dead for this Laporte!

Beta Aquilae, GTVA Shipyards; Thea Carey: "'Bout time we kicked this revolution into overdrive."

 Final mission takes place on Nagariland and the goal is to use some ancient Brahman technomagic device to kill save Laporte.

EDIT: I have been redoing AoA... wow, almost everything feels like it has a hidden meaning to it now. Frankenstein's Monster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsUKDHW9Sqs) briefing just reeks of something other than what I felt first time I played.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 02, 2013, 11:58:55 pm
Yeah, it sort of foreshadows
Spoiler:
what would eventually happen to Sam.

Looking back on it, Samuel's brainwashing is actually pretty noticeable throughout AoA. He goes from fearing the Vishnans to accepting them in only a few days (if my sense of time is accurate.) By Tenebra, he views them as holy beings and finds it impossible to consider any alternative. Bei worships the Vishnans, although this probably has more to do with them ****ing up his brain then with any logical errors on his part.

Well, at this point humanity's fate rests with two alien beings/races of godlike power. One of them can psychically enslave human beings with little or no effort while pretending to be benevolent, and the other possesses a military with dozens of juggernauts and seemingly inexhaustible numbers. Actually, both the Vishnans and the Shivans are capable of the first one. The Vishnans seem to use it a lot more, but there is at least one instance (Noemi's interaction with Ken) where the Shivans could easily have been doing it too. Speaking of than, Tenebra seems to portray the Shivans in a more positive light than the Vishnans; but let's not forget that they tried to destroy the Terrans and Vasudans, and it may still be their ultimate objective. Laporte (and Ken?) could have been shown a false picture.

Well, at least we can shoot down their fighters. That has to count for something. Right? :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 03, 2013, 12:54:02 am
I think that's a viable read of what happened but I'm curious as to why you think it's the only conceivable interpretation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 03, 2013, 01:18:33 am
Spoiler:
You mean the Shivans and/or Ken lying? I don't think that's the only possibility, but after seeing how completely the Vishnans were able to twist Samuel's perception of things in AoA I'm inclined to be pessimistic.

At this point, I'm suspicious of anything that seems to put any moral slant on the battle between Shivans and Vishnans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ryuseiken on February 03, 2013, 10:54:40 am
Spoiler:
Does Tenebra really paint the Shivans in a more positive light though? The Vishnans used the Elders as puppets to achieve some long lasting goal, probably to become viable to fuse with the 'Summer Psyche', whatever that is. The Shivans/Ken are basically holding a gun to the head of the human race and saying that Laporte needs to help the Shivans further their goals, whatever that turns out to be, or else.

Both sides are pretty much using humanity as tools for an unknown purpose, the only difference I can see being how open they are about it. If we can serve their goals in some way then we are useful for the moment, if we stop being useful we'll be tossed aside. We aren't worth being hated or pitied by them any more than a broken hammer would be worth hating to us.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 03, 2013, 10:59:52 am
I mean the Vishnans brainwashing Sam.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 03, 2013, 11:11:19 am
I mean the Vishnans brainwashing Sam.

Well, I guess it's possible that he just really, really wants to believe them, but the language he used makes me think otherwise.

Spoiler:
Does Tenebra really paint the Shivans in a more positive light though? The Vishnans used the Elders as puppets to achieve some long lasting goal, probably to become viable to fuse with the 'Summer Psyche', whatever that is. The Shivans/Ken are basically holding a gun to the head of the human race and saying that Laporte needs to help the Shivans further their goals, whatever that turns out to be, or else.

Both sides are pretty much using humanity as tools for an unknown purpose, the only difference I can see being how open they are about it. If we can serve their goals in some way then we are useful for the moment, if we stop being useful we'll be tossed aside. We aren't worth being hated or pitied by them any more than a broken hammer would be worth hating to us.
Spoiler:
Tenebra portrays the Shivans more positively in an emotional sense. They're still no better than the Vishnans (probably).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 03, 2013, 06:50:20 pm
They are unrepentant assholes that would wipe us out.  Just now there is something of an apparent reason for that so it seems less bad.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 03, 2013, 11:21:29 pm
Both sides are unrepentant assholes who have about as much empathy for humanity as we have for ants. One prefers enslavement and one prefers destruction, but they can and will use both.

One side may be portrayed better than the other, but both seem to be fairly even morally.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GrahamO on February 04, 2013, 04:38:41 am
My two penn'th ....

Remember that the Vishnans said that humanity should be preserved because they build communities out of warring factions ? The first storyline was about a 'hero' of the GTVA doing the right thing, the second storyline when complete will be about Laporte 'doing the right thing' and probably refusing to do something to the GTVA which would drive a wedge between humanity factions and the Vasudans, and the third part will be when the GTVA, the Vasudans and the UEF all come together as the Vishnans predicted, to kick the Shivans good and proper.

Its so similar to Bablylon 5 in many ways with the Shadows, the Vorlons and the First Ones, with the Humanity/Vasudan pairing similar to the Human/Minbari thread.

Just my views - it may have been said in the previous 200 pages but I must admit I have not checked.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on February 04, 2013, 04:45:58 am
I think Laporte (currently) has too much hatred for the GTVA to consider 'doing the right thing'.  e.g. one of the command briefings from early in Act3 where she's talking about
Spoiler:
her thoughts on killing the Elder
And the person she seems to be listening to most (i.e. Ken) has literally said, "You must destroy the GTVA"...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on February 04, 2013, 07:37:43 am
They are unrepentant assholes that would wipe us out.  Just now there is something of an apparent reason for that so it seems less bad.

Yeah, but now they are being nice about it. Or something. (I still have to finish the campaign to actually be able to follow the discussion of Tenebra...)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: yomi on February 04, 2013, 03:36:01 pm
Is it possible to kill Morena MacDuff on Insanity?
If someone did it, could you tell how? No matter what i do, i get smashed before i can do anything
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crazy_dave on February 04, 2013, 04:15:24 pm
So in conversations from Tenebra:

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83302.0

Are we to take it that Steele actually planned to lose at Neptune? It was also mentioned as a possibility by Laporte and the Fedayeen - or is it just that as the Fedayeen suspect, he simply didn't mind losing at Neptune as it wasn't important to him? And as a bonus he gets two more destroyers from command for the loss of the one. I mean I'm not sure how much hope the victory game the UEF as they know they're still outnumbered, outgunned, and now the GTA has even more destroyers in the system than they did before.

Unless the conversation between Bei and Martin is from before the War God's battle at Saturn? It wouldn't seem so.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 04, 2013, 04:23:26 pm
I do not so much think he planned to loose the Carthage, but I am pretty sure he had prepared contingencies for this eventuality. Contingencies that he then enacted.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 04, 2013, 04:31:43 pm
Too bad Steele didn't have a contingency for Neptune's scuttle charges being sabotaged, he should have left a remote controlled Meson Bomb with "Don't **** with the Steele" written on it.

Spoiler:
On the subject of Shivans: Act3 does certainly portray the Shivans as far more "benevolent" than the Vishnans, The Shivans, being "mutable" seem to be able to, at least partially, think outside the protocol. The Vishnans appear to be trapped by it.

And one last thing. Where did you guys get those fractals? I can swear I saw at least one as some guy's Avatar on DeviantArt.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crazy_dave on February 04, 2013, 05:08:14 pm
I do not so much think he planned to loose the Carthage, but I am pretty sure he had prepared contingencies for this eventuality. Contingencies that he then enacted.

That's how I thought of it, but the conversation would almost indicate a deliberate ploy - which seems a little far fetched in this particular case. Of course the UEF victory changes the strategic situation very little, if anything it's worse for the UEF with the new destroyers being brought in even if they got a morale boost and the GTA took a morale hit and Calder can use Neptune as a base.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on February 04, 2013, 05:11:03 pm
Too bad Steele didn't have a contingency for Neptune's scuttle charges being sabotaged, he should have left a remote controlled Meson Bomb with "Don't **** with the Steele" written on it.

Spoiler:
On the subject of Shivans: Act3 does certainly portray the Shivans as far more "benevolent" than the Vishnans, The Shivans, being "mutable" seem to be able to, at least partially, think outside the protocol. The Vishnans appear to be trapped by it.

And one last thing. Where did you guys get those fractals? I can swear I saw at least one as some guy's Avatar on DeviantArt.

Spoiler:
I don't think it's a case that the Vishnans are incapable of thinking outside of the protocol, they just genuinely believe that is the correct course of action and the Shivans are jeapordising whatever balance they have been maintaining all along. I can see why this would motivate them to go to the lenths they have. For them it's business as usual and the Shivans are threatening to upset that. From their point of view the Shivans are behaving irrationally, perhaps because of the taint of assimilating a human mind, i.e. Bosch.

Admittedly it's difficult to describe in human terms what is essentially a feud between almost-demigods. Imagine Ants trying to read Shakespeare; they lack the most basic capacities to do so.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 04, 2013, 05:56:41 pm
God lord, I knew it is wrong...but I did it anyway, replaced the UEF ships in Delenda Est with their MK2 counterparts, they chewed through the Carthages battlegroup fairly easy...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on February 04, 2013, 10:43:50 pm
A Mk2 is tougher than an Orion or Hecate, though slightly less than an Raynor. We haven't seen the first fleet for the entire act 3, so quite possible that Byrne is upgrading the ships that we haven't see. If the Indus survived, then there is a good chance that they are in the middle of upgrading the Indus into a Mk2 as well. Who knows if Calder is also salvaging the debris in Saturn while everyone else is busy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 04, 2013, 10:47:23 pm
I think it pretty unlikely that a Mk 2 Karuna would be tougher than an Orion or Hecate, and nowhere near a Raynor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 04, 2013, 10:51:15 pm
Your tables mean nothing! <DOOM>

In all seriousness though - simply throwing a mark II in there isn't exactly a litmus test of their effectiveness in plot.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on February 04, 2013, 11:07:38 pm
There is another thing called 'awesome yet impractical'. The goodness of a mk2 just comes in that it is more heavily armored than its predecessor. It still don't pack the Orion's firepower in that regard. Those Gattler turrets are still hardly a match to the BGreens or Terslash even.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on February 05, 2013, 03:59:33 am
Is the Sanctus upgrade similar to the Karuna Mk2 in terms of armament? If so will we see more next gen corvettes deployed to counter this threat as the Deimos will be outclassed?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 05, 2013, 06:02:09 am
Your tables mean nothing! <DOOM>

In all seriousness though - simply throwing a mark II in there isn't exactly a litmus test of their effectiveness in plot.
True enough, they get wasted like the old Karunas once the Imp jumps in, but they shred the Deimos non the less.
I just wanted to see how they performed in a mission which was carefully freded. I hope it's no insult to Battuta though^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on February 05, 2013, 06:07:20 am
Is the Sanctus upgrade similar to the Karuna Mk2 in terms of armament? If so will we see more next gen corvettes deployed to counter this threat as the Deimos will be outclassed?
IIRC it loses the blob turrets in favor of more Burst Flak, and its Warhammers and Mass Drivers are replaced by Hydras and Gauss Cannons.  A good upgrade, which puts it on more or less the same footing as the stock Deimos.  Hydras are pretty powerful.

Do remember that the Deimos can be upgraded as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on February 05, 2013, 06:39:22 am
Just wanted to see if there will be more action with the next gen corvettes in the next few missions. Somthing more like a pitched battle rather than ambush jumps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on February 05, 2013, 07:16:23 am
I am not sure how effective it is going to be against other capships that the Sanctus lost the mass drivers in favor of more burst flak and PDS, though it gets 1 more gauss cannon.  Though for sure it  now send the Aeolus a run for their money in term of anti-strikecraft capabilities.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on February 05, 2013, 07:43:53 am
It's the Hydras that make the difference.  Those things are much better than Warhammer#Sanctus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on February 05, 2013, 07:47:41 am
The Hydra is a special warhead designed to get through flak defenses by spawning four submunitions, each with about a quarter the yield of a full Apocalypse warhead. The direct damage each submunition causes may be less than what an Apo might do, but because the probability for a warhead to get through is much higher.....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 05, 2013, 12:32:22 pm
If you compare the Hydra to the Apocalypse sure.
But the old Sanctus variant is carrying Warhammer. Those are also swarm torpedoes, so it's pretty much the same principle as before (overwhelming the point defense), but with improved performance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GrahamO on February 05, 2013, 12:33:46 pm
Whatever the background and interpretation, I am enjoying Tenebra immensely - particularly the 'Her Finest Hour' mission which I have yet to complete but I am getting closer.

My thanks to all those involved, as you have clearly put a huge amount of effort to get the balance right and it really shows.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rjpONE on February 09, 2013, 09:12:41 am
Hello, I am new to this site but having rediscovered my favorite space sim not long ago, I downloaded and played the Blue Planet Mods (AoA and WiH 1-3). I just want to say that the work of the BP team is outstanding and I greatly enjoyed playing all of it. You guys rock and I want to thank you for the superb work you have done. Can't wait for acts 4 and 5. Keep up the great work!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 13, 2013, 11:51:35 pm
i decided i like the custos mission a lot more than i originally gave it credit for, and have been playing it many times through the tech room.  in doing so i've found what i consider to be a rather serious bug.  enemies can shoot right through the asteroid and kill you when you are inside.  my turrets' return fire didn't penetrate, though.  i saw the cruisers' weapons flying through the rock, and i'm pretty sure the medusa bombers were at least shooting me with primaries too.

also, not a bug, but i want to note that the auto-aim on the primary guns makes turret sniping almost impossible when the macduff is maneuvering.  would it be possible to keep the auto aim on the gattlers but remove it for the spinal gun?  final question, are gattlers supposed to consume energy?  i thought they weren't, since they are ammo-based.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black_Yoshi1230 on February 14, 2013, 01:03:43 am
Welp, I am supposedly on the last mission of Tenebra, and one thing...

... way to freaking scare me in the dark, crew. Now I realize why it's a bad idea to do this kind of stuff during late night.*

* I'm not going to explain that bit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 14, 2013, 02:53:09 am
I agree with Klaustrophobia on the auto-aim issue.
Would it be possible to have a toggle key, so you can switch the auto-aim off if you like?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on February 14, 2013, 03:18:03 am
final question, are gattlers supposed to consume energy?  i thought they weren't, since they are ammo-based.
The Gattlers of the Custos-X are the same as the ones used on fighters. They consume 1.0 point of energy per second (for reference, the Rapier consumes 2.0 and the Maul 2.29), but you have 6 of them on the Custos-X.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 14, 2013, 07:26:49 am
Wait the Vindicator has auto-aim?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on February 14, 2013, 07:42:24 am
And glide.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 14, 2013, 12:31:05 pm
The Gattlers were, for that reason, the best thing to take out fighters and bombs with.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on February 14, 2013, 12:50:05 pm
The Gattlers were, for that reason, the best thing to take out fighters and bombs with.

Yup, Its because of the Gattlers, that I never needed to use Flares.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 14, 2013, 06:17:11 pm
Weird. I never got it to auto-aim.

EDIT: Did you have to be in first-person mode? I spent almost the entire mission in third.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 14, 2013, 06:22:26 pm
maybe it's not very noticeable in third person?  i can't imagine it would switch off because of that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on February 14, 2013, 06:30:10 pm
Actually, it might of worked-I do remember my Arquebus mysteriously firing off course.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 14, 2013, 09:24:54 pm
I had a whimsical thought. Is the void scene in Universal Truth perhaps a reference to a certain bug brought to the surface by Ken?

(Well, damn. As I was typing this the shrieking vishnan opera came on my playlist.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 14, 2013, 09:32:11 pm
 :lol: :lol: :lol: And I think so.

 I actually played 'Ken' with a mod to remove the nebulae clouds, **** was unnerving as ****. Especially after Ken leaves. You are left in a black void without a Sun and can't see anything... :shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on February 14, 2013, 09:46:22 pm
I had a whimsical thought. Is the void scene in Universal Truth perhaps a reference to a certain bug brought to the surface by Ken?

I laughed out loud when the void part came up because of this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on February 15, 2013, 03:27:11 am
Okay, so after playing through Tenebra a few more times, I finally feel like I can offer a bit more than, "I liked it, it was good, MOAR PLZ," even though that would be the overall impression. This may not make much sense, but I was finding myself liking and disliking different sides of the same thing. Let me explain:


Spoiler:
I don't think enough good things can be said about how much this community has done with such an old engine; if someone would have told me, back when I was playing the original FS games, that one day a bunch of crazed fans would constantly update the graphics, models, and the engine so that we would get things like tower defense, I probably would have laughed. This has been said by quite a few people already, but while I enjoyed the departure from vanilla missions, there might have been just a tad too much of it. Or, perhaps it's more a problem of being extremely concentrated. Other campaigns have had unconventional missions, but they were usually sprinkled among more traditional fare. It's like icing on a cake. Icing is tasty, but too much of it in one place, without finding a balance, will overpower the cake. In Tenebra's case, it was actually almost like eating a whole bowl of icing. That being said, at no point did I feel like the BP team was trying to make Freespace into something that isn't Freespace - having effective assets at your disposal, calling in tanks to act as makeshift sentries, or taking the helm of a (albeit small) cruiser is still stuff blowing up in space. All of those mechanics tried to make stuff blowing up in space more interesting, rather than trying to take the focus elsewhere, which is actually pretty important.

The exposition dumps didn't really bother me. I'm not sure how anyone who played the previous releases didn't come into Tenebra expecting anything else. We get to see a lot of plot threads coming together, but that brings me to one of my complaints. It almost feels like TOO many plot threads all come together in the short space of a few missions. There are still a hell of a lot of unresolved questions about exactly what is going on with the Shivans, Vishnans, Brahmans, the Great Darkness, and whatever "Grand Design" we're playing a part in, but a lot of personal threads for Noemi become much more...tidy. It almost feels like the only thing left to do is blow up the GTVA, get info pooped onto us like a statue in a park full of pigeons on why this whole thing happened in the first place, Noemi reunites with Simms, cats and dogs start living together, mass hysteria ensues, etc (note: I don't actually expect this is what will happen, but in the absence of knowledge about what's coming next, one might be able to excuse that particular line of thought).

I've seen a lot of people comment that Noemi is a lot less sympathetic this time around. Personally, I saw a person dealing with significant losses learning to compartmentalize, and learning to hate after growing up knowing very little of it. But one thing I will say is that it certainly didn't feel like as much of a roller coaster ride, at least for me. The high point, for me, was asploding the Carthage (screw you, Lopez), but there really weren't any lows to make the highs more significant. WiH 1 was absolutely beautiful in this regard. Eagerness turned defeat turned desperation turned hope turned almost-triumph turned emotional-Falcon-punch-in-the-dick. WiH 2...well, I know you're now a part of an alarmingly effective but somehow still secret organization, and everything you touch turns to gold. You cut through the GTVA like a hot knife through butter. Oddly enough, Noemi herself even muses that the weak link in all plans is human, but we never actually get to play the weak link. CASSANDRA is nigh-infallible and all the Fedayeen's plans go off without much of a hitch. It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Edit: remembered the thread title doesn't say spoilers, added spoiler tags!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 15, 2013, 08:16:20 am
Spoiler:
This has been said by quite a few people already, but while I enjoyed the departure from vanilla missions, there might have been just a tad too much of it. Or, perhaps it's more a problem of being extremely concentrated. Other campaigns have had unconventional missions, but they were usually sprinkled among more traditional fare. It's like icing on a cake. Icing is tasty, but too much of it in one place, without finding a balance, will overpower the cake. In Tenebra's case, it was actually almost like eating a whole bowl of icing.
I agree, but I have to play devil's advocate here: Tenebra is an entire story arc set in a stealth fighter, and as such needed to make flying a stealth fighter interesting and fun, as opposed to the insipid fly-into-the-Atreus-fighterbay missions stealth fighters usually get.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 15, 2013, 01:14:36 pm
Remember that in the original scheme of things, Tenebra would have been followed by two acts of heavy assault and bombing missions that incorporate a number of the mechanics it introduces.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on February 15, 2013, 07:57:39 pm
Okay, so after playing through Tenebra a few more times, I finally feel like I can offer a bit more than, "I liked it, it was good, MOAR PLZ," even though that would be the overall impression. This may not make much sense, but I was finding myself liking and disliking different sides of the same thing. Let me explain:


Spoiler:
I don't think enough good things can be said about how much this community has done with such an old engine; if someone would have told me, back when I was playing the original FS games, that one day a bunch of crazed fans would constantly update the graphics, models, and the engine so that we would get things like tower defense, I probably would have laughed. This has been said by quite a few people already, but while I enjoyed the departure from vanilla missions, there might have been just a tad too much of it. Or, perhaps it's more a problem of being extremely concentrated. Other campaigns have had unconventional missions, but they were usually sprinkled among more traditional fare. It's like icing on a cake. Icing is tasty, but too much of it in one place, without finding a balance, will overpower the cake. In Tenebra's case, it was actually almost like eating a whole bowl of icing. That being said, at no point did I feel like the BP team was trying to make Freespace into something that isn't Freespace - having effective assets at your disposal, calling in tanks to act as makeshift sentries, or taking the helm of a (albeit small) cruiser is still stuff blowing up in space. All of those mechanics tried to make stuff blowing up in space more interesting, rather than trying to take the focus elsewhere, which is actually pretty important.

The exposition dumps didn't really bother me. I'm not sure how anyone who played the previous releases didn't come into Tenebra expecting anything else. We get to see a lot of plot threads coming together, but that brings me to one of my complaints. It almost feels like TOO many plot threads all come together in the short space of a few missions. There are still a hell of a lot of unresolved questions about exactly what is going on with the Shivans, Vishnans, Brahmans, the Great Darkness, and whatever "Grand Design" we're playing a part in, but a lot of personal threads for Noemi become much more...tidy. It almost feels like the only thing left to do is blow up the GTVA, get info pooped onto us like a statue in a park full of pigeons on why this whole thing happened in the first place, Noemi reunites with Simms, cats and dogs start living together, mass hysteria ensues, etc (note: I don't actually expect this is what will happen, but in the absence of knowledge about what's coming next, one might be able to excuse that particular line of thought).

I've seen a lot of people comment that Noemi is a lot less sympathetic this time around. Personally, I saw a person dealing with significant losses learning to compartmentalize, and learning to hate after growing up knowing very little of it. But one thing I will say is that it certainly didn't feel like as much of a roller coaster ride, at least for me. The high point, for me, was asploding the Carthage (screw you, Lopez), but there really weren't any lows to make the highs more significant. WiH 1 was absolutely beautiful in this regard. Eagerness turned defeat turned desperation turned hope turned almost-triumph turned emotional-Falcon-punch-in-the-dick. WiH 2...well, I know you're now a part of an alarmingly effective but somehow still secret organization, and everything you touch turns to gold. You cut through the GTVA like a hot knife through butter. Oddly enough, Noemi herself even muses that the weak link in all plans is human, but we never actually get to play the weak link. CASSANDRA is nigh-infallible and all the Fedayeen's plans go off without much of a hitch. It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Edit: remembered the thread title doesn't say spoilers, added spoiler tags!

You think nothing went right for the GTVA?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 15, 2013, 09:37:17 pm
Spoiler:
It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Super disagree with this. The Fedayeen succeed in Tenebra for most of the same reasons the GTVA succeeds in Act 1/2. That's made explicit and examined in the story, and it has nothing to do with Alpha 1 syndrome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TwentyPercentCooler on February 15, 2013, 10:49:57 pm
Spoiler:
It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Super disagree with this. The Fedayeen succeed in Tenebra for most of the same reasons the GTVA succeeds in Act 1/2. That's made explicit and examined in the story, and it has nothing to do with Alpha 1 syndrome.

To clarify, I know the canonical reasons why it plays out the way it does and I don't think it's completely out in left field or anything like that. I just meant that I think emotions in a narrative have a sort of topography (you'd probably know far better than I, though, what with being a writer and all :p ). It's hard to explain, but I just didn't connect with it as well as I did with the first release. Success is exhilarating, but constant success sours pretty quickly. That being said, I probably shouldn't have used the "Alpha 1 Syndrome" label, because that isn't really what it is. From a gameplay standpoint, it's very well-averted. I also know that Tenebra wasn't meant to be stand-alone, so I definitely am looking forward to knowing where you guys are going with all of this. I wasn't disappointed in this release from an overall standpoint, though. Not even close.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 15, 2013, 10:50:29 pm
And I think we have to recall that price for that success is Laporte's self-destructive catharsis. I think if you showed Laporte now to Laporte at the beginning of Act 1, she'd be absolutely horrified.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 15, 2013, 10:56:18 pm
Spoiler:
It's actually sort of amusing to me now - I just got through reading the thread started by FSF about how BP forgot BP and I remember something about how WiH 2 was trying to avoid "Alpha 1" syndrome by mixing up the formula, but I felt it was really WiH 1 that averted it and now we've gone a few steps back. WiH 1 was powerful to me because we, as the players, rarely taste failure and hopelessness. It would have been nice to see at least a few things go wrong, even if they weren't catastrophic.

Super disagree with this. The Fedayeen succeed in Tenebra for most of the same reasons the GTVA succeeds in Act 1/2. That's made explicit and examined in the story, and it has nothing to do with Alpha 1 syndrome.

To clarify, I know the canonical reasons why it plays out the way it does and I don't think it's completely out in left field or anything like that. I just meant that I think emotions in a narrative have a sort of topography (you'd probably know far better than I, though, what with being a writer and all :p ). It's hard to explain, but I just didn't connect with it as well as I did with the first release. Success is exhilarating, but constant success sours pretty quickly. That being said, I probably shouldn't have used the "Alpha 1 Syndrome" label, because that isn't really what it is. From a gameplay standpoint, it's very well-averted. I also know that Tenebra wasn't meant to be stand-alone, so I definitely am looking forward to knowing where you guys are going with all of this. I wasn't disappointed in this release from an overall standpoint, though. Not even close.

Constant failure sours pretty quickly too. Remember, this story was outlined - well in advance - as five acts, meant to be delivered at once; a lot of what people react to (wingmen less relatable, for instance) has to be viewed in the lens of what came before. Laporte needs time to heal, she can't just start making new friends - and the player's just spent two whole acts being beaten into the floor over and over again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fury on February 16, 2013, 02:40:49 am
Other campaigns have had unconventional missions, but they were usually sprinkled among more traditional fare. It's like icing on a cake. Icing is tasty, but too much of it in one place, without finding a balance, will overpower the cake. In Tenebra's case, it was actually almost like eating a whole bowl of icing.
One should keep in mind that Tenebra is only one piece of a bigger campaign, like WiH1 is. And that campaign isn't over yet. When comparing to WiH1, also keep in mind that WiH1 had two acts while WiH2 has only one. While hard to do because of episodic releases, one should think of WiH as one big campaign and draw comparisons from that big picture. But at the moment the big picture isn't finished yet, as we're only at the half-way point in the campaign.

Act 3 was definitely a departure from standard missions and perhaps it might have been better if act 3 had been released together with act 4 at a later date to cover wider variety of mission types. While I have not played finished act 3, I did play it when it was still in beta. Act 3 practically consisted of only the kind of missions I don't care much for, despite of how good the fredding behind these missions were. Just like many of you, I was thinking of act 3 as stand-alone campaign, which it is not. In the future when you play finished WiH from first to last act, I am sure you can appreciate act 3 a lot more than you do now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rubixcube on February 16, 2013, 02:55:11 pm
Sorry to go off topic, but who in the BP team played amnesia: the dark descent? I just noticed that many of the sound effects from universal truth are from that game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 18, 2013, 12:23:50 pm
So, something I just noticed about one future: Even if the SOC gets brought in, the McDuff wipes the floor with them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 18, 2013, 12:41:35 pm
So, something I just noticed about one future: Even if the SOC gets brought in, the McDuff wipes the floor with them.

This probably depends heavily on whether you're playing with a build in which the AI can't properly target subsystems (this includes 3.6.16 and the BP build I believe).

It's a shame we released with builds like this. I feel like our missions got a lot harder for a lot of people because -

-All weapon damage and ROF was locked on Insane
-AI couldn't reliably hit subsystems, like the Carthage engines
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 18, 2013, 01:09:12 pm
Yeah, it was with a BP .17 build
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 18, 2013, 01:43:36 pm
-All weapon damage and ROF was locked on Insane
-AI couldn't reliably hit subsystems, like the Carthage engines


orly?  i guess it's a good thing then that i didn't waste a bunch of time ordering wings around to strip turrets and subsystems. 

the insane level AI didn't cause me all that much extra trouble, since the majority of the campaign was spent in a stealth fighter trying to avoid getting shot at.  sidhe-assassinate, then run like hell for 5 seconds.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on February 18, 2013, 02:19:18 pm
I didn't know about the subsystem problem. I would warp in gunships and durgas to focus down the engine, address other objectives myself, and come back to dead reinforcements and an engine at high health.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on February 18, 2013, 05:14:13 pm
I didn't know about the subsystem problem. I would warp in gunships and durgas to focus down the engine, address other objectives myself, and come back to dead reinforcements and an engine at high health.

Well, i tryed a couple of tactics in that mission agains the Carthage and this pretty much explains a lot of issues i had with that mission.


On a side note: I do not agree that the player gets beaten up all that much in the first 2 acts. I mean, u capture the Agincourt and u do give the Meridian a beating.

Ok, granted: i think i never cursed so badly or that much like after the mission at saturn failed, but tbh.: Capella going Supernova wasnt that much better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Garfield on February 18, 2013, 06:01:44 pm
So, something I just noticed about one future: Even if the SOC gets brought in, the McDuff wipes the floor with them.

Wait, you can bring in the SOC in One Future? How? Because I've been looking for a way to defeat the Morena on insane...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 18, 2013, 09:15:54 pm
i think the trigger is capturing the station before you destroy the macduff.  i've had them arrive.  it looked to me like they were invulnerable.  they were taking a good bit of fire from the macduff's PD turrets but never died.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: providence932 on February 20, 2013, 05:04:20 am
Hello

It's waaaay too late, but I've just spent the entire day consuming this work of art here, and now after reading some of this thread, I've got to leave my $0.02 about what I've just gone through. Some background about where I'm coming from: I'm an ArmA II player, I play that game for it's immersing, demanding, cruel and intellectually intense and often unique challenges. I play a lot of ArmA II, it's probably the game I spend the most time on. As for Blue Planet, I can't really say what keeps me here, because there is no defining feature of Blue Planet that keeps me playing it. I couldn't really care about what country the USMC invades in ArmA II, but the GTVA invading Sol has much more relevance to me.

When I played War in Heaven R1 I was blown away, first by how the smooth, lethal and fast-paced gameplay led me to believe that the GTVA and UEF were truly dueling with next-generation equipment. Uhlans, Nyx and Kentaurois effortlessly screamed around aging Perseus and Myrmidon fighters in a way that felt much more visceral than what vanilla freespace had ever offered me. Layered onto that feeling was the raw mission design, all of the missions were memorable merely because of how much thought and effort went into defining them from the freespace 2 campaign, and those corner-stone missions: Aristeia, Delenda Est, Post-Meridian, The Blade Itself, only helped to define the campaign even further. I never thought that I would get an emotional response outside of excitement from a Freespace game, or much any space-simulator, but I've found plenty of excitement and much more from blue planet, and that's probably one of the biggest things keeping me here.

To be honest, in terms of gameplay, you folks are outmached. You're not Mechwarrior: Living Legends who deals with a fairly new version of Cryengine, you're talking an old, patched-up space game from 1999 and telling it to do things that it was never intended to do. However, despite the obvious hurdles that you must overcome to do what you have to do, you still manage to get it done and create, in my opinion, one of the strongest semi-linear experiences around, and this takes me to Act 3.

When I had found that there was a new release for blue planet I was esctatic, I was expecting more of the same from Act 2 - heart pounding action and lots of reading. I got a lot of that, lots of heart pounding action and some fantastic reading - more on that later - but then I got something that I didn't expect, a flavor of gameplay that I haven't seen in a long time, a lack of repetition. Act 3 took one basic concept, you're a stealth ninja who can blow things up fast, and built an entire doctrine around it. You crafted a campaign where every single mission was unique, where they all - save for two - adhered to this "stealth" concept and executed it in a way that was completely unique from the others. Just as you get used to one concept in time to master it for a mission, it's disposed of and quickly replaced with a new mechanic. In the first mission, we use our stealth to weave between ships in a convoy and rapidly inflict damage; in mission 2, we operate under the mindset that when the enemy finds us, we had better have everything ready; in mission 3, the ninja ship turns from commander, to saboteur, back to commander again in a short span, it's a lot to take in each time, and this is something that, for me, absolutely murders the game's replay value.
However, this isn't a bad thing at all, a huge part of this campaign is simply discovering how things work and putting together a sub-optimal strategy that pulls you to a narrow victory. It's romantic, and replaying the mission kills the romance of having to solve that puzzle. I miss the mechanics of each mission like I miss a TV show that just happened to be of the right length: while I wish there were more of it, it's better to have it show up and shine brightly now than to burn itself out in the future.

I will make one exception to this though, I WILL be playing Universal Truth over and over again to see all of the different endings. I must have intentionally failed it around 7 times now just to see how it all works: first I looked when I was told not to, then I looked with Track IR, then I used time compression to see what happens when I didn't fly into the Dante, and I uplinked to the Simms jump node in the dream, I even played all the way through just so I could see what happens when I refused to "jack out of the matrix" during the Delenda Est scene. I absolutely adore this design philosophy that you guys have taken so far, I really hope to see more of this style in the future. Overcoming the challenges presented by new gameplay features is an amazing thing in my eyes, especially when they're built upon tried and true mechanics - we're still shooting things after all - and it comes with a fantastic story to boot, which leads me onto my next point.

Act 3 had a very strange shooting to reading ratio even when compared to Act 2. For a space-simulation in the modern era, this was unheard of. To me, it was also refreshing, and it made the combat all the better when I had gotten to it. WIHA3 plays more like an interactive novel than a shoot-em-up, more like a simulation than an arcade-game, more like something that's trying to be a book. To me it's riveting, everywhere I went I wanted to learn more about the Federation, the GTVA, and the Fedayeen and the Universe around me. I spent the time to fly to the firewalls in the dreamscape simply to see if there was anything that could be interacted with, and then you sent me to a 15 page briefing written in traditional five-paragraph order. As an ArmA 2 player, this briefing was exceptionally familiar and touching to me - it hit right at home! I write and deliver briefings like this on a regular basis when I play ArmA II, and I found myself getting into the same preparation that I would for a long military simulation in a game with "beam cannons" and subspace jumps. That level of realism and immersion is unmatched in most games nowadays, I bought it, took it home, tried it on and squealed over it.

This is why I can't figure out why I keep coming back to Blue Planet.

As for the reading, I can't say anything bad over it. Not particularly sure that any amount of voice overs could really help at this point. The Vishan-Shivan dialogue was a nice change of pace, but only because they're mindless aliens who are going to murder everyone if they don't fit into their plans. After reading so much text, Ken, Olifumi, Simms, Laporte and Steele all have their own voices now, I've given them voices, I've assigned them tones and I've read out their lines with the choir of voices in my own mind. To be honest, it was a lot to get used to, it took me several playthroughs of WiHR1 to get used to it and hell, I still use the F4 button to go back through that message log after I've managed to evade a missile and have missed dialogue. It doesn't slow down the action for me to delve into the characters, every shot fired, every enemy spaceframe downed, every line of text read has significance, and for me, if it takes me a little bit longer to get through it, then it's only a sign of how well it's been put together, and how much respect I've deserved.

This is been an utterly disheveled rant by a fanboy who's spent too much of his vacation time before school playing this game, I'm just going to conclude with one last bit before I tell more people to buy this game simply so we can talk about it's single player.

I loved this piece. It's excited me, tugged on my heart-strings, tickled my brain, piqued my interest, and sent marines to secure a long-standing place in my memory.  Everything was perfect and I hope to see more of this in acts 4 and 5. More careful reading, more decision making, more learning, more misty-eyes.

-Judah

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to be Perfectly Fine waiting for the next one.

Spoiler:
Oh yeah, I managed to blow up the Jupiter spacestation and that GTM Something that was docked to it during Everything is Permitted by hacking into one of the Mjolnirs near the Atreus. Pretty sure that Steele isn't going too happy about that, even though he didn't seem to care. I tried to screenshot it so I could put it in this post but I wasn't running in a window at the time, so I'll have to do it again.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: cio on February 20, 2013, 05:10:53 am
Just finished my venture into Tenebra. So many new levels of awesomeness, but that's just what you would expect from Blue Planet, wouldn't you.

I couldn't get it to run on my linux box and after a lot of experimenting with different settings, replacing system libraries with custom builds, and crawling through debug logs, I decided it must be the fault of the stupid Intel graphics chip.  :banghead:
Things would be easier for the advanced linux user with a link to the cvs or wherever the bp source is hosted. Precompiled binaries have the habit of not matching the library versions and files on your system.

I installed everything on my macbook and the build for mac worked fine there with no hacking. (though a few random crashes and lockups occured, but not to an annoying extent).

And now to the action:
Pros:
-Great soundtrack
-Excellent writing
-Not so long ago fs2 mods were centered around shooting down enemies like clay ducks that are too stupid to mind you shooting them. This has evolved into an immersive experience with more realistic ai that will kill you instantly if you try a "Charge-of-the-Light-Brigade". Tenebra takes this one level further: tactics and stealth over force. Though in one or two missions I wished I could fly an old-fashioned bomber with a couple of nukes and take care of the Carthage "the old fashioned way".


Cons:
-I don't have troubles with reading a lot of text, but sometimes the information was just too dense for me. I never quite understood who or what al-dawa was, for instance. And sometimes - especially in the last "nightmare" mission - reading your messages seems like reading Finnegan's wake. Experimental narrative style the Shivan way..

Spoiler:
-I hacked a mjolnir in the assassination mission and ordered it to attack Artemis station. Then I turned to take care of the transports. I didn't notice that the beam had chewed the station down to a few percent and when it went up in a big explosion the tevs didn't seem to care about that. The transports continued their journey to a no longer existing station, which seems a quite ridiculous. I wonder if I could take down the Artreus in the same fashion :D

-I died a couple of times in the last mission. My curiosity got the better of me and I turned around where I shouldn't have.. Then I didn't find the node when fleeing from the Vishnans. When I restarted the mission I couldn't link with the shivan comm nodes to "get some answers" as I was supposed to. Didn't matter to me since I already knew them.


-The only real dislike for me: act 3 seems very short to me. 

I have waited 2 years for act 3. Now the waiting starts again for the next release... :(

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: providence932 on February 20, 2013, 05:17:00 am
Spoiler:
-I hacked a mjolnir in the assassination mission and ordered it to attack Artemis station. Then I turned to take care of the transports. I didn't notice that the beam had chewed the station down to a few percent and when it went up in a big explosion the tevs didn't seem to care about that. The transports continued their journey to a no longer existing station, which seems a quite ridiculous. I wonder if I could take down the Artreus in the same fashion :D

I have waited 2 years for act 3. Now the waiting starts again for the next release... :(

Spoiler:
I'm happy that I'm not the only one whose done this. I'm gonna have to go get that screen shot or at least record a run where I blow the thing up after killing Svetlana.  I'll try for the Atreus next, see how much stuff I can fry with the thing. I think the next release, or a patched version, should include something when you do that

The idea of waiting that long for the other two is really scary, gonna be a real breath stealer checking back every few months.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on February 20, 2013, 06:00:18 am
Things would be easier for the advanced linux user with a link to the cvs or wherever the bp source is hosted. Precompiled binaries have the habit of not matching the library versions and files on your system.

Just on this point, there's a patch file here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83318.0), and FreeSpaceFreak wrote a guide on building a BP binary from scratch somewhere in this thread but it's a bit hard to find (we should have asked the BP team to link to it to make it easier to find).  Short story is, checkout the antipodes branch from here (http://svn.icculus.org/fs2open/), apply the patch, install dependencies then compile. 

Regardless, I'm glad you got it working on your Mac anyway.

And lastly, for my own curiosity's sake, which distro are you running?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: cio on February 20, 2013, 06:56:21 am
Thanks for your help. I'll try compiling once I get a decent graphics card. :D

I'm running arch linux, 64 bit version.
Had to downgrade openal and install a libjpeg version from aur, beside a few other things I don't remember right now.
And I created a symlink to my liblua version to match the filename the binary expects.
I could watch the intro mission, but the first dreamscape mission always crashed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 20, 2013, 07:24:45 am
Holy ****, you guys who blew up Artemis are heroes. We should've given a special debrief for that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on February 20, 2013, 09:45:00 am
Holy ****, you guys who blew up Artemis are heroes. We should've given a special debrief for that.

"medal of the broken fourth wall: to be given to any pilot able to frak up the entire story we outlined for you without cheating"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on February 20, 2013, 10:46:38 am
providence932,
I tried this against both the Artreus and the Artemis. Atreus had an invincible tag so the hull did not drop below 98% and when I tried it on Artemis the Beam missed. I guess you got luckier than me
Spoiler:
though I did try this after the elder was dead
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: providence932 on February 20, 2013, 11:49:27 am
In order to royally mess up the plot
Spoiler:
Target the (GTM) medical ship that's docked to the Artemis, it's got the same name as the one in Her Finest Hour and the beam will penetrate that and will start plinking the station. make sure you use the beam cannon that's sitting above the Atreus

I think it also had something to do with the fact that I placed my beacon (to call in the suicide ship) well and away BEHIND Artemis station and since I activated it and the Mjolnirs and roughly the same time, the fighters never had a chance to stop it from hammering into the station since I was already using the static discharge and eating away at the elder's transport.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on February 20, 2013, 12:00:05 pm
Nice :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 20, 2013, 12:39:38 pm
Quote
For your outstanding record of game testing, you are hereby awarded the Blue Planet Sequence Breaking Star. This medal recognizes your contributions to our mission of exploration and containment of game breaking bugs, from the Jovian retreat in Sol to your victory at Artemis station. Most notably, we commend you for a successful sortie against the GTD Atreus and it's escorts. Congratulations, Pilot.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on February 20, 2013, 02:18:08 pm
That's a good one, An4. You gotta write something like this, Battuta!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: cio on February 20, 2013, 02:47:30 pm
Spoiler:
I think I used Mjolnir 2 to blow up Artemis (or was it 7?). It might not work with the other cannons. On my first run I tried hitting the Artreus,
but the beam missed and so Artemis seemed the perfect target of opportunity for my second run right at the start of the mission. :D
I just forgot about the station and rushed to the transports, until .. BOOM...

Maybe you could "get hugged" for taking out Artemis just like in Act 2 when you cheat the Carthage into oblivion  :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 20, 2013, 03:20:47 pm
i'm curious as to how it can miss stationary targets as large as a destroyer or installation from point blank range.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 20, 2013, 05:05:51 pm
Its really accurate if you give it orders over C-ships-blah.  Otherwise it just fires into space without bearing on the target.  Those are my findings anyhow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Veers on February 20, 2013, 05:26:43 pm
I prefered to hit all the logistics rather than the warships after I had eliminated the transport.. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on February 20, 2013, 05:33:02 pm
Its really accurate if you give it orders over C-ships-blah.  Otherwise it just fires into space without bearing on the target.  Those are my findings anyhow.

is there some other way to fire it? o.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Pred the Penguin on February 20, 2013, 07:31:35 pm
Get out of your fighter and turn it manually?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on February 21, 2013, 03:53:44 am
Get out of your fighter and turn it manually?
That would be badass. "Guys, there's someone trying to push one of the RBCs by hand."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TheDemon on February 23, 2013, 12:58:22 am
So, uh

Spoiler:
I was replaying Her Finest Hour again, seeing how badly I could **** it up. I played just well enough to avoid Sekhr's attack, and I took down all the Mjols before calling the Toutatis. Sounds like a sound plan, right?

Toutatis jumps in, kills the Carthage while sustaining a fair bit of damage from her beams, something like 50%. I choose the Destroy option because... then after the Carthage dies, the disabled Iolanthe and Deianira and ****ing Radhanite (http://i.imgur.com/HdnCPtU.jpg) takes down the Toutatis in the middle of the victory dialogue.

I guess the debriefing that I got was already built-in, because it's totally possible to kill the Carthage and then lose the Toutatis to Mjolnirs, but absent any Mjols on the battlefield my guess is Steele is giving those corvette crews a god damn medal.

Also what are MARDUK, NABOPOLOSSAR, and especially EDDA?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 23, 2013, 01:30:01 am
Marduk (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk)
Quote
The Marduk Prophecy is a text describing the travels of the Marduk idol from Babylon, in which he pays a visit to the land of Ḫatti, corresponding to the statue’s seizure during the sack of the city by Mursilis I in 1531 BC, Assyria, when Tukulti-Ninurta I overthrew Kashtiliash IV in 1225 BC and took the idol to Assur, and Elam, when Kudur-nahhunte ransacked the city and pilfered the statue around 1160 BC. He addresses an assembly of the gods.
The first two sojourns are described in glowing terms as good for both Babylon and the other places Marduk has graciously agreed to visit. The episode in Elam however is a disaster, where the gods have followed Marduk and abandoned Babylon to famine and pestilence. Marduk prophecies that he will return once more to Babylon to a messianic new king, who will bring salvation to the city and who will wreak a terrible revenge on the Elamites.

Nabopolassar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabopolassar) - A king of the Babylonia, played a role in the demise of the Assyrian Empire.

Edda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edda) - Possibly an indirect reference to Ragnarok.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on February 23, 2013, 06:55:26 am
Edda could also be the oil rig to the left of this image (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Alexander_L_Kielland_and_Edda_2-7C_NOMF-02663-1-650.jpg).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 23, 2013, 02:08:02 pm
How do you call the Toutatis?
All I ever get to call in are fighters, bombers and a squad of gunships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on February 23, 2013, 02:27:13 pm
You don't want to.  If you do Serkr shows up to gank it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 23, 2013, 02:57:24 pm
You don't want to.  If you do Serkr shows up to gank it.

Not true. Serkr will appear under specific circumstances.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gregster2k on February 23, 2013, 05:37:11 pm
You guys are doing FANTASTIC work with this one.  Your storytelling is getting better (I hated AoA's plot, liked WiH, loved the gameplay of both), and you did a masterful job of helping me get totally immersed and suspend disbelief.

However, in the first mission briefing, you made blatant reference ("Nothing is true, everything is permitted") to another video game series. Please don't do that again.

I can tell that Assassin's Creed heavily influenced this latest chapter, but actually using THE Assassins' Creed as the creed of the Fedayeen was not a good move.  Come up with your own knockoff maxim for the Fedayeen, paraphrase it, alter it, or even remove it -- but your story is strong enough that it can and SHOULD stand on its own just fine without quoting other games verbatim.  If you do, the spell of immersion is broken -- I go from being IN the experience, to THINKING ABOUT the experience.  Which is a damn shame because you did so good to immerse me otherwise, making reading that all the more jarring.

[EDIT] I stand corrected (see the reply to this An4ximandros posted) re. the origin of this phrase.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 23, 2013, 05:41:00 pm
Assassin's Creed did NOT touch BP in any way whatsoever, all the so called ASS references are to the book which, get this, INSPIRED Assassin's Creed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamut_(1938_novel)

Read that book, It is awesome.

 Heads up, there are other references to Books in BP, such as the name Solaris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(novel)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 23, 2013, 06:03:35 pm
You guys are doing FANTASTIC work with this one.  Your storytelling is getting better (I hated AoA's plot, liked WiH, loved the gameplay of both), and you did a masterful job of helping me get totally immersed and suspend disbelief.

However, in the first mission briefing, you made blatant reference ("Nothing is true, everything is permitted") to another video game series. 

I can tell that Assassin's Creed heavily influenced this latest chapter, but actually using THE Assassins' Creed as the creed of the Fedayeen was not a good move.  Come up with your own knockoff maxim for the Fedayeen, paraphrase it, alter it, or even remove it -- but your story is strong enough that it can and SHOULD stand on its own just fine without quoting other games verbatim.  If you do, the spell of immersion is broken -- I go from being IN the experience, to THINKING ABOUT the experience.  Which is a damn shame because you did so good to immerse me otherwise, making reading that all the more jarring.

Please don't do that again.

What an ironic post - complaining about a video game knocking off a quote from another video game, without realizing that video game was referencing a quote from history.

Please don't do that again.  :p

Assassin's Creed did NOT touch BP in any way whatsoever, all the so called ASS references are to the book which, get this, INSPIRED Assassin's Creed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alamut_(1938_novel)

Read that book, It is awesome.

 Heads up, there are other references to Books in BP, such as the name Solaris: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(novel)

Nietzsche predates Alamut I'm pretty sure, as do other sources.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gregster2k on February 23, 2013, 06:15:29 pm
Oops.

I'll definitely give those books a look.

On the other hand, the use of Deus Ex: HR's theme (Icarus) was also jarring to me (albeit not as much as the quote).  I have that song associated pretty heavily with Deus Ex, not FreeSpace.  That being said, I got over it and enjoyed the mission anyway, there was that initial bump though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on February 24, 2013, 04:54:51 pm
Greg, you are not alone about that "initial bump" on the Icarus theme.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on February 25, 2013, 02:16:45 am
Still I think it's better to have a great track that fits the situation even if it reminds me of something else initially, rather than a track that either isn't great or doesn't fit.
There is just so much that Bellisarius and Darius can compose and/or remix by themselfs in their free time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: cio on February 25, 2013, 05:14:21 am
Quote
Nietzsche predates Alamut I'm pretty sure, as do other sources.

Nietzsche borrowed that from Dostoyevsky. "If there is no god, then everything is permitted" or something similar can be found in The Brothers Karamazov, a great read by the way.


Speaking of inspirations for WiH, the chanting of the Vishnans in the last mission of act 3 reminds me somehow of "Daphnis et Chloé" by Maurice Ravel.
And one of the paintings you glimpse when you die looks very much like Hieronymus Bosch's work, Ascension to heaven, I think the painting was.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on February 25, 2013, 05:32:36 am
Quote
Nietzsche predates Alamut I'm pretty sure, as do other sources.

Nietzsche borrowed that from Dostoyevsky. "If there is no god, then everything is permitted" or something similar can be found in The Brothers Karamazov, a great read by the way.

This is just untrue. Nietzsche came up with that aphorism while describing the "secret motto" of the 12th century group of assassins, leadered by Hassan-i Sabbah. This group is, obviously, the primary source of inspiration for the game "Assassin's Creed". The quote is historical, but you got the references wrong.

Dostoievsky used a variant of this nihilistic theme to describe what would happen "without god", ironically an aphorism voiced by the criminal one  Dmitri (while Ivan being the atheist, who apparently didn't fall down to become a criminal).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: coupster103 on February 28, 2013, 06:28:37 pm
Ugh everyone's posting about how badass WiH act 3 is and mine just crashes and says ''antipodes has stopped working'' as soon as i try to launch it.....help please?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on February 28, 2013, 06:46:02 pm
Ugh everyone's posting about how badass WiH act 3 is and mine just crashes and says ''antipodes has stopped working'' as soon as i try to launch it.....help please?

Check the compatibility thread perhaps, I'm pretty sure it has a fix for that.  (its stickied)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ssmit132 on March 01, 2013, 08:31:21 am
Well, I just finished WiH Act 3.

Holy crap, what did I just play! :eek2:

I'm in awe of the things that you guys did with this game; I mean, all of these missions with all sorts of fancy tactical elements - I'd heard about how innovative it was from some of the other posts here, but it was certainly a lot of unexpected things in here for me. And I had a lot of fun with it, too, despite some things (the sneaking around stuff especially) not really being my favourite thing to do.

Spoiler:
Her Finest Hour and Eye of the Storm were particular highlights for me - I remember feeling incredibly tense as the Carthage prepared to depart as I was worried I wasn't going to disable it in time, but I did and it felt so good to be victorious! And in the latter mission, trying to get the tanks down before the Ignatius had to pull out, worring about where the stealth fighters were, all while massive warheads fell from the sky - absolutely beautiful. :D

And, well, consider me rather rattled after Universal Truth. I don't think I've ever experienced anything quite like that before. It was unsettiling to see how old and alien the Shivans and Vishnans are supposed to be. All these weird words they spouted that I'd never heard of before, while they were discussing their plans for humanity... Never mind being told to RUN AWAY from things and to not turn around... I don't often get scared by fictional things, but that certainly freaked me out at least a little. :shaking:

I really don't know what you will throw at us after this, but I'm sure it will be as brilliant, if not more so, as this part of the story. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EAD_Agamemnon on March 04, 2013, 04:40:23 am
Hmm...is A3 really A2 (as per the campaign list with A1 being the one where you fly a frigate)?
In other news...I've yet to complete Act 2 but find it a strangely immersing campaign...that I feel needs commenting upon RIGHT NOW!

I used to love RTS games...and some SIM games of which FS was my favorite while other Descents were also fun. In recent years I much prefer RPG, ESPECIALLY ones with some kind of story, of which BP certainly seems to have. Its great to be flying as something more than the "Death Incarnate Alpha 1" and instead as named character...male or otherwise...that tries to do their part and what extra they can.

BP in my opinion is one of those mods that seems to bring the smaller picture into perspective as just a part of the big one. IE Imagine FS1 as you're just another pilot (albeit impressive one) that finds their(self) faced with the prospect of the grinding TV War only to be faced by the arrival of the Shivan threat and the all-consuming need to defend against them at any cost to themselves. PARTICULARLY the last mission where its easy to see "Alpha 1" being the fatalistically selfless sort. Then there is FS2...a pilot haunted by what they know was lost...and terrified by what could be after seeing the return of the Shivans as well as being awed by the demonstration of their ability and power at Capella. (Needless to say I'd be both of those under those circumstances).

I could go on describing but it wouldn't do it justice. I'm afraid the aspiring author streak in me has a tendency to find the limits of the written word...despairingly lacking at times. What it all comes across as is that feeling you get when reading a really good book...and getting asked to summarize it to someone that's never read a book in their life...or simply doesn't understand very well. Makes descriptions rather clumsy.

I look forward to seeing BP through to its end as it like very few other SCP mods...seems every bit as worthy a concept for the nigh taboo title of FreeSpace 3 as any might come. The choice of music...perfect theme and mood setting!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 04, 2013, 05:36:35 am
Hmm...is A3 really A2 (as per the campaign list with A1 being the one where you fly a frigate)?


BP is divided into:

BP 1 : Age of Aquarius

BP 2 : War in Heaven

BP 3 : (Don't recall).


BP2 has been further divided into five acts, and released in the following timelines:

BP2 WiH Act 1 and 2 -> First War in Heaven release, in 2010;
BP2 WiH Act 3 (Tenebra) -> Second War in Heaven release, in 2013 (current)
BP2 Wih Act 4 and 5 - > Yet to be released

Quote
What it all comes across as is that feeling you get when reading a really good book...and getting asked to summarize it to someone that's never read a book in their life...or simply doesn't understand very well. Makes descriptions rather clumsy.

Try it though. I'm one of the school of thought that the only reason someone can't summarize something into a very short take is because he doesn't understand it as well as he thinks. I'm not trashing here, I don't think I'm able to do it too!

What I like most about War in Heaven is that it is the first very hard sci fi game that really takes its premises seriously and to its full extent, creating almost a new secular mythology on the likes of 2001 and so on (the inclusion of "Requiem" at the right moment really made my own day, as you can tell).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EAD_Agamemnon on March 04, 2013, 03:59:24 pm
Just finished A2 (or whatever it should be called) and got rescued from being cooked to death by Sol....and DUH-AMN! This is a great piece of work so far!

Also...regarding the inablity to summarize properly. I've NEVER been good at explanations. :P

EDIT: DOH! Seems like 2 parts were directly linked in the listing in the campaign room for Act 1. As soon as WiH part 1 ended it immediately cut to part 2. I fired up Part 3 (as per the listing in campaigns) and the cinematic in it continued from where I'd just left off from being rescued at Sol. Somehow I think something got typoed....oh well. Since I've not yet reached that point where I'm being told NOT to turn around to see whats behind me...I'm not done with whats been released yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 04, 2013, 04:22:11 pm
EDIT: DOH! Seems like 2 parts were directly linked in the listing in the campaign room for Act 1. As soon as WiH part 1 ended it immediately cut to part 2. I fired up Part 3 (as per the listing in campaigns) and the cinematic in it continued from where I'd just left off from being rescued at Sol. Somehow I think something got typoed....oh well. Since I've not yet reached that point where I'm being told NOT to turn around to see whats behind me...I'm not done with whats been released yet.

What? Sunglare was the end of Act 2, you just started Act 3. The first campaign you played is Act 1 and Act 2.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EAD_Agamemnon on March 04, 2013, 11:01:00 pm
Well however the numbering system of the order works...
I'm now at the "do not turn around" part....trying to run...to run....to run................and have not yet succeeded in outrunning IT! :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on March 04, 2013, 11:07:41 pm
Shunt all power to engines and BOOST FOR YER MIND! RUN RUN RUN! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=S-XEINagmaU#t=4s) What Diff you playing at?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EAD_Agamemnon on March 04, 2013, 11:11:14 pm
Um....I've been going casual on Easy...
I'm told to head for the light...yet I couldn't see any anywhere. Am I to run in the direction I face on arrival in the Abyss? IE dont touch pitch/yaw...just floor it?

OR Could it be because I got a few errors before mission start? One of them is

Couldn't load animation/bitmap 'debris04'

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>

The rest are also for debris02 & 03.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on March 04, 2013, 11:17:01 pm
the light is a tiny pinprick a little off center to the left.  i've never NOT been able to outrun it. i mean, it always kinda... pushes me the last little bit....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 04, 2013, 11:18:25 pm
Um....I've been going casual on Easy...
I'm told to head for the light...yet I couldn't see any anywhere. Am I to run in the direction I face on arrival in the Abyss? IE dont touch pitch/yaw...just floor it?

OR Could it be because I got a few errors before mission start? One of them is

Couldn't load animation/bitmap 'debris04'

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>

The rest are also for debris02 & 03.

Could you post your debug log, please?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EAD_Agamemnon on March 05, 2013, 12:23:14 am
I'll have to re-run the mission then with the debug build then (tomorrow). Managed to finally survive it though...and I certainly hope to see Blue Planet's conclusion. This mod is not simply a mod...but an entire saga unto itself it seems.

BAH! Time I went o bed already....I shoulda went to bed almost an hour ago (as of this post) but didn't want to leave the last mission half-finished.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 05, 2013, 10:11:02 am
the light is a tiny pinprick a little off center to the left.  i've never NOT been able to outrun it. i mean, it always kinda... pushes me the last little bit....

Funny, I was quickly outrunned. So quickly I thought it was obligatory. Clearly I am wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on March 05, 2013, 11:44:46 am
Oh woah, anyone else notice that a real life Ainsarii exists?

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Lockheed+F-19&qpvt=Lockheed+F-19&FORM=IGRE
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on March 05, 2013, 12:26:31 pm
 Eh, that (Scrapped AFAIK) plane IS the inspiration for the model.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on March 05, 2013, 04:07:30 pm
Pretty futuristic looking for an 80s plane.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BlasterNT on March 05, 2013, 04:15:02 pm
On the other hand, a lot of famous "futuristic planes" - the F-117, the B2, the SR-71, were designed before or during the 80s. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on March 05, 2013, 04:32:15 pm
Well, you can't expect the modern futuristic planes to be declassified yet, can you?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on March 05, 2013, 04:43:48 pm
Oh woah, anyone else notice that a real life Ainsarii exists?

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=Lockheed+F-19&qpvt=Lockheed+F-19&FORM=IGRE
Thats part of the have blue programm, which lead to the F-117.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on March 05, 2013, 06:15:44 pm
With respect to the great darkness, I replayed with the express intent of being caught.  I cut my engines etc and it just rammed me into place and I survived regardless.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on March 06, 2013, 03:18:07 am
With respect to the great darkness, I replayed with the express intent of being caught.  I cut my engines etc and it just rammed me into place and I survived regardless.

You dared the Great Darkness to play 'chicken'?  :D Then you must already be more insane than the Great Darkness can ever make you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BritishShivans on March 06, 2013, 06:49:01 am
I did that at first as well. I was really disappointed, all the Great Darkness do is bump into and send you into Ken's pocket universe/nebula thingy. Nothing interesting happens.

I was expecting to die or whatever
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ##UnknownPlayer## on March 07, 2013, 09:33:41 pm
Having just finished WiH:P3 (after loving all the previous ones too) I thought I should reactivate this old account to render praise! The whole BP saga is incredibly well-written and full of amazing missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: a_b_c on March 17, 2013, 06:13:23 pm
I was wondering: will we meet FS1's Alpha 1 in Chapters 4-5 or WIH3, if we haven't already?

This tidbit from the Dreamscape spurred my question:
"I heard. Needle right in the heart of the beast. Where'd you get the ice water transfusion to pull that off?"
"At least they didn't ask me to fly into the Atreus' fighterbay, right?"
"****, that takes me back. That memory's in the dreamscape somewhere if you ever want to go over it."

Could it be an offhand reference to Playing Judas (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Playing_Judas)?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on March 17, 2013, 06:34:20 pm
I imagine FS Alpha 1 is probably an Elder, considering his wealth of knowledge and Nagari-sensitivity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on March 17, 2013, 10:23:44 pm
As I recall Alpha 1 is supposed to have founded the Fedayeen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on March 17, 2013, 11:18:14 pm
that was my impression also.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on March 17, 2013, 11:26:46 pm
Isn't Alpha One the Indo-Polish guy Laporte meets at the shower? He is referred to as the Al-Da'wa.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 18, 2013, 04:56:36 am
While I agree that Alpha 1 is most likely one of them, I don't think there is any single "the Al-Da'wa".
My best guess would be that they are probably a "Ken light". A group of people acting as a single entity.

I wonder if the Al-Da'was are mentally linked somehow (like a subpartition of the Nagari network only they can access), or just cooperating in the usual human fashion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 18, 2013, 09:22:53 am
Ummm

I think it was pretty clearly stated that Al-Da'wa is neither a single person, nor a group of persons. "He's" a gestalt entity, something that was born from all the combined mind states of all Fedayeen. Al-Da'wa is able to take over certain people and use their bodies for a time.

Alpha One, if he is still alive, is rapidly approaching 80. While medicine has made it so that that age does not preclude being more active than today (Calder being a prime example of this), I can state with certainty that Alpha One has so far not made an on-screen appearance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on March 18, 2013, 02:33:54 pm
Considering that McDuff was nearly 150, I doubt Alpha 1 has aged any more than someone in their 40s or 50s (by our standards).

Do you think he will make an appearance?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SpardaSon21 on March 18, 2013, 03:12:28 pm
MacDuff was also old and dying and with what little power he had left over the various Gef cells slipping through his fingers.  Slinging Kostadin Cell's asteroid into Earth was him knocking over the chess table because old age was about to checkmate him.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on March 18, 2013, 03:29:19 pm
Al-Da'wa is able to take over certain people and use their bodies for a time.
Ah, like "the player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=F2lLdl1D8pU#t=124s)" takes over Laporte's?

 As for the original post: The fiction viewer mentions someone Laporte meets in the shower room being referenced as " That was Al-Da'wa." I was under the impression that his was the first mind to 'bleed' into the Shivan that became Al-Da'wa. And from the Dreamscape conversations, I extrapolated that the Alpha Alpha One was the first human to 'link' into the Nagari Network.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: HydroAmbience on March 18, 2013, 03:36:51 pm
I'm dieing for the next act.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 18, 2013, 05:27:32 pm
Does anyone else remember Elders' being called "Elder" because of their incredibly lengthened lifespans?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: HydroAmbience on March 19, 2013, 02:07:13 pm
Yes, why?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on March 19, 2013, 03:42:08 pm
Just wondering if I imagined it. And if MacDuff was 150 and he's "only" a Gef, then I wouldn't be surprised if some Elders are well over 200. Where were MacDuff's and Calder's ages seen?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Apollo on March 19, 2013, 03:49:42 pm
Well, the Morena's tech description says McDuff was almost 150.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 19, 2013, 04:00:33 pm
And if MacDuff was 150 and he's "only" a Gef
Gefs do not have the same technological level than the Feds nor the Tevs. In some areas, they are more advanced than either, including some specific areas of biology. Comparing the Elder lifespan to MacDuff is not a fair comparison.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 19, 2013, 04:06:21 pm
I always imagined MacDuff like that dude from Crysis 2, hooked up to an array of machinery dedicated to keeping him alive and unable to move, or even live, outside of it for any amount of time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on March 19, 2013, 04:13:41 pm
That's... definitely not the impression I got from his head ani...

Also, Hargreave was not hooked up by cables, he was inside of a green 'jelly' tank.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 19, 2013, 04:16:00 pm
....and Hargreaves' head animation told you so much about what he looked like, right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Garfield on March 19, 2013, 07:56:16 pm
I always imagined MacDuff like that dude from Crysis 2, hooked up to an array of machinery dedicated to keeping him alive and unable to move, or even live, outside of it for any amount of time.

I imagined that MacDuff was old and decrepit, while his wife was fused with the ship and controlling it in some sort of trashuman undeath. Gives a new meaning to "built around his late beloved wife."

Are we going to learn anything more about the Gefs in the rest of WiH? The bits and pieces we learned in Tenebra were quite interesting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 20, 2013, 03:41:12 am
Same here. I'd really like to learn a bit more about the "Greenfly Sleeper" too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cornix on March 25, 2013, 04:01:42 pm
I've tried to download the BluePlanetComplete installer three times now, all of them coming down corrupted or not downloading at all. Tried DLing just BluePlanetAoA, same thing.

Please help, I've been needing a Blue Planet fix since 2011. >.>
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on March 26, 2013, 09:06:22 am
I always imagined MacDuff like that dude from Crysis 2, hooked up to an array of machinery dedicated to keeping him alive and unable to move, or even live, outside of it for any amount of time.

The Corpse-Terrorist of the Golden Throne?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 26, 2013, 01:45:58 pm
I've tried to download the BluePlanetComplete installer three times now, all of them coming down corrupted or not downloading at all. Tried DLing just BluePlanetAoA, same thing.

Please help, I've been needing a Blue Planet fix since 2011. >.>

Can anyone else verify this?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cornix on March 27, 2013, 01:14:03 am
Well, I was finally able to download it properly and got it installed, but now the game crashes after the start screen.

Grr.

Debug log attached.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2013, 01:36:32 am
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.6.18.9546
Passed cmdline options:
  -missile_lighting
  -3dshockwave
  -3dwarp
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -window
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4d6319c8
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x4f978a6b
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x64e738b9
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xbaa4dbd6
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x9689af32
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\adv-bp.vp' with a checksum of 0x6e9d550d
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x53c3080c
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0xc9c97c6b
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x16ea6fad
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x8c01538d
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a0a46ec
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c948078
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' with a checksum of 0xb58a1f46
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x7c9d7e74
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\Root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x747372cc
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' ... 33 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 243 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 92 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 682 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2480 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\adv-bp.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 47 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1561 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 39 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\' ... 5 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\Root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\Games\FreeSpace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 35 roots and 20526 files.
ERROR: Unknown Language Checksum: -1162327434
Using default language settings...
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".

  Sample rate: 44100 (44100)
  EFX version: 1.0
  Max auxiliary sends: 1
  Playback device: Generic Software on Speakers and Headphones (IDT High Definition Audio CODEC)
  Capture device: Internal Mic (IDT High Definiti
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1366x768 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor    : Intel
  OpenGL Renderer  : Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000
  OpenGL Version   : 4.0.0 - Build 9.17.10.2843

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ATI_shader_texture_lod".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_float".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Depth-blended Particles
Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Distorted Particles

  Max texture units: 8 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 1200
  Max elements indices: 1200
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Max render buffer size: 4096x4096
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: NO
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  OpenGL Shader Version: 4.00 - Build 9.17.10.2843
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
Game Settings Table: Using Standard Loops For SEXP Arguments
Game Settings Table: Using standard event chaining behavior
Game Settings Table: External shaders are DISABLED
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-turretHotkey-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-equip-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 36, 'l_hit.wav'...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 37, 'm_hit.wav'...
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mus.tbm' ...
TABLES => Starting parse of 'colors.tbl'...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-aip.tbm' ...
Warning: "$perform less checks for death screams" flag is deprecated in favor of "$perform fewer checks for death screams"
Warning: "$allow primary link delay" flag is deprecated in favor of "$allow primary link at mission start"
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp50.eff) with 92 frames at 30 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-wep.tbm' ...
Ignoring free flight speed for weapon 'Trebuchet#Aegis'
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'radar-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
bp-shp.tbm(line 222): Error: Required token = [#End], [$Subsystem:], [$Name], or [$Template], found [$Glowpoint overrides: ( "red_glow_10:1,2" )].

ERROR: bp-shp.tbm(line 222):
Error: Required token = [#End], [$Subsystem:], [$Name], or [$Template], found [$Glowpoint overrides: ( "red_glow_10:1,2" )].

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 336
Freeing all existing models...

If I'm reading this right, it looks like you missed a key step in the install instructions: you need to use the launcher to select the build that comes with Blue Planet. Other FSO builds lack the necessary features to run BP.

Unfortunately, it also looks like your graphics hardware is well below minimum spec. To work around this, please install the BP low-end compatibility package here: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83606.0

And be sure to follow the instructions there to get the build you need. This one should work http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=84150.0
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cornix on March 27, 2013, 02:00:38 am
Is it saying that I'm using my Intel HD graphics card? I have a NVIDIA Geforce GT630M that the computer sometimes switches from to the Intel.

Also, ran it with the proper build. Is the graphics problem why it crashes and tells me that "Antipodes has stopped working?"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2013, 02:13:56 am
You are getting the "Antipodes has stopped working" error because you are below minimum spec and have not installed the compatibility package.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on March 27, 2013, 02:20:45 am
Is it saying that I'm using my Intel HD graphics card? I have a NVIDIA Geforce GT630M that the computer sometimes switches from to the Intel.

Yes, you need to tell your system to use your Nvidia GPU for Freespace Open.  I'm not 100% sure, but I think there's a list of programs you can configure in your GPU control panel?  (I don't have one of these switchable graphics setups myself)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 27, 2013, 02:47:34 am
Ya, just set your FSO exes to run with the NVidia in your control panel. Unfortunately you'll have to remember to do this each time you get a new exe.

If you want to be sure it works just remember your debug log tells you loud and clear what GPU you're using.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cornix on March 27, 2013, 04:35:19 am
Thanks a bunch, General Battuta. But the game crashed after the third(?) mission, where we have to defend Rheza Station.

Debug log attached.

And I couldn't find a way to set my graphics card so that my computer would use it when I ran FSO. Checked out the NVIDIA control panel, but it only lets me manage 3D settings.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2013, 10:26:40 am
Thanks a bunch, General Battuta. But the game crashed after the third(?) mission, where we have to defend Rheza Station.

Debug log attached.

And I couldn't find a way to set my graphics card so that my computer would use it when I ran FSO. Checked out the NVIDIA control panel, but it only lets me manage 3D settings.

Well this looks like a novel FSO bug introduced by one of the recent nightlies. Niffiwan, any idea what's causing that?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on March 27, 2013, 05:28:35 pm
Sorry, no ideas spring out at me from my look at the log  :(

Cornix - which nightly build are you using?  And can you test if the problem still occurs on an earlier (or later) nightly?

edit: actually, this & the others below it seem a bit unusual, not sure what's causing it though...
Code: [Select]
AUDIOSTR => ErrorExit for ::Create() on wave file: bp206cb01
Failed to load "bp206cb01.ogg"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 28, 2013, 05:11:23 am
Caused by voice acting references in the mission file, but no actual voice acting files present. Which is nothing to worry about, really.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cornix on March 29, 2013, 10:13:20 am
Cornix - which nightly build are you using?  And can you test if the problem still occurs on an earlier (or later) nightly?

I'm using 3_6_19_NO-SSE-20130326_r9607 (not sure if that string of random letters after is relevant,) and I haven't tried another build yet.

I ran the game on debug for one mission, then switched back, and the game didn't fatally crash again until I after I finished Delenda Est. I did notice before that there were missing skyboxes (guessing nebulas, since all I saw were stars,) and that it would crash if I tried to click on a Solaris during the briefing before Delenda Est.

Log attached.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2013, 10:30:14 am
The stars are a skybox. Were you able to see Saturn in Delenda Est? If so the skyboxes were rendering fine.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cornix on March 29, 2013, 11:36:16 am
The stars are a skybox. Were you able to see Saturn in Delenda Est? If so the skyboxes were rendering fine.

Hmm, well portions of the background would show up as simply black in previous levels -- I could see Saturn fine, but Luna City was on a field of pure black.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 29, 2013, 12:04:37 pm
Luna City's terrain isn't a skybox, it's a giant ship. It sounds like your GPU may have been having trouble with some of the larger textures?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 29, 2013, 12:19:31 pm
Code: [Select]
Max texture size: 8192x8192So he should be fine on that front.

But still, you should definitely be able to use your nvidia to play FSO. You should just have to manually add the exe to the control panel. Are your nvidia drivers up to date ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cornix on March 29, 2013, 12:21:20 pm
Code: [Select]
Max texture size: 8192x8192So he should be fine on that front.

But still, you should definitely be able to use your nvidia to play FSO. You should just have to manually add the exe to the control panel. Are your nvidia drivers up to date ?

Am I still using the Intel HD? Balls.

I think they're up to date, but I'll check... What do you mean by "adding the exe to the control panel?"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 29, 2013, 12:38:18 pm
He means using the nvidia control panel to explicitly tell the driver to switch to the high-performance GPU when FSO is started.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on March 29, 2013, 12:43:34 pm
I mean here:

(http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/980/controlpanelu.png)

I need to install an English Windows pack on this laptop.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fien on March 29, 2013, 11:50:56 pm
sounds.tbl(line 629):
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, 1, 200, 400         ]  instead.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
KERNEL32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
KERNEL32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
KERNEL32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 99 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 54 bytes

I get this when I try to run WiH. I have FSO, the latest version of BP, the right mediaVPs, I used the provided installer and followed the instructions to the letter. Any idea what's going on here? Sorry if this problem has been solved already somewhere in the thread. I looked but didn't see anything that helped. This is my first time trying to mod the game so I have no idea what's going wrong here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 30, 2013, 01:43:10 am
You almost certainly missed a key step in the instructions - which is hardly your fault, there are quite a lot of instructions. ;) Please post a debug log (run the debug build, post fs2_open.log) and we can solve the problem in a heartbeat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 30, 2013, 01:43:40 am
First of all, you should get one of the builds from the build repository thread. Second, you should use the debug build to generate an fs2_open.log and post that here, that'll tell us what's going wrong in greater detail.
Title: Re: in BP: Heaven War discussion
Post by: Fien on April 01, 2013, 05:27:45 am
Sorry to have to ask this, but how do you put the log in the list that I see throughout this thread?

Title: Re: BP: War discussion in Heaven
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2013, 06:48:56 am


 Sorry to have to ask this, but how do you put the log in the list that I see throughout this thread?

Instructions are posted in the support forum here http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,56279.msg1180359.html#msg1180359
Title: Heaven discussion War in Re: BP:
Post by: Fien on April 01, 2013, 07:03:49 am
Alright, it's in the attachment. Thanks for being so patient with me.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: BP: Heaven Re: War in discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2013, 10:28:57 am
Okay, you've made some really important (but understandable - the process is confusing) installation mistakes.

You installed Blue Planet to FreeSpace2/BP. You need to aim the installer at FreeSpace2.  You cannot have your Blue Planet files in FreeSpace2/BP/blueplanet2 and FreeSpace2/BP/blueplanet. They MUST be located in FreeSpace2/blueplanet2 and FreeSpace2/blueplanet.

Similarly, your MediaVPs are not installed correctly. Please go to the MediaVPs thread and reinstall them in FreeSpace2/mediavps_3612.
Title: discussion Re: War Heaven BP: in
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2013, 10:36:51 am
Forums jumbled
Title: in Re: BP: Heaven discussion War
Post by: General Battuta on April 01, 2013, 10:37:06 am
Stupid April Fool's joke
Title: Heaven War Re: BP: discussion in
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 01, 2013, 10:44:00 am
yeah
Title: in Heaven Re: discussion BP: War
Post by: Jeff Vader on April 01, 2013, 10:44:15 am
fully agree
Title: Re: BP: discussion Heaven War in
Post by: SpardaSon21 on April 01, 2013, 11:08:23 am
Yes, bad idea.  Nothing productive can happen today.
Title: discussion in War BP: Re: Heaven
Post by: BlasterNT on April 01, 2013, 11:11:31 am
form Quoting a message shows its unjumbled .   
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: coupster103 on June 04, 2013, 04:52:28 am
Code: [Select]
sounds.tbl(line 629):
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF: 0 T_flyby1.wav, 0, 0.75, 1, 200, 400 ]  instead.

KERNELBASE.dll! IsNLSDefinedString + 3242 bytes
KERNELBASE.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 139 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_19_NO-SSE-DEBUG-20130531_r9686.exe! <no symbol>
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 99 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 54 bytes

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: coupster103 on June 04, 2013, 04:53:18 am
Help on the above issue with running blue planet please?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on June 04, 2013, 05:56:41 am
You are running Blue Planeet 2 without having Blue Planet 1 installed. Please reinstall Blue Planet 1.

In addition, you must use either the compatibility pack or the provided BP builds in order to play either of the BP campaigns.

Also, even though an integrated Intel GPU is rather weak, you can keep glowmapping and specular mapping active; the only visual effects that do make problems are those that explicitly require shader support (like normal mapping and postprocessing). In addition, using the -novbo and -use_gldrawelements commandline switches is not recommended unless you actually see corruption without them, as they both have a severe effect on performance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: coupster103 on June 04, 2013, 01:47:15 pm
Code: [Select]
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.6.19
Passed cmdline options:
  -noenv
  -missile_lighting
  -nomotiondebris
  -nonormal
  -3dshockwave
  -nolightshafts
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -mod FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -novbo
  -disable_fbo
  -no_glsl
  -disable_glsl_model
  -disable_di_mouse
Building file index...
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\adv-bp.vp' with a checksum of 0x670cbd97
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x58f866a1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x213dcdf3
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe5b684cd
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x1604e6d1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0xcb7237b9
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' with a checksum of 0xb3e21469
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x7c9d7e74
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\multi-mission-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0x377695e0
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\multi-voice-pack.vp' with a checksum of 0xd50e7442
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\Root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\adv-bp.vp' ... 358 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' ... 41 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' ... 683 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' ... 47 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' ... 400 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' ... 1561 files
Searching root 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Music.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.3612.vp' ... 13 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\multi-mission-pack.vp' ... 110 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\multi-voice-pack.vp' ... 307 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\Root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 30 roots and 17332 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".

  Sample rate: 44100 (44100)
  EFX version: 1.0
  Max auxiliary sends: 1
  Playback device: Generic Software on Speakers and Headphones (IDT High Definition Audio CODEC)
  Capture device: Internal Mic (IDT High Definiti
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Failed to init speech
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1024x768 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor    : Intel
  OpenGL Renderer  : Intel(R) HD Graphics 4000
  OpenGL Version   : 4.0.0 - Build 9.17.10.2817

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ATI_shader_texture_lod".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_float".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

  Max texture units: 8 (2)
  Max elements vertices: 1200
  Max elements indices: 1200
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Max render buffer size: 4096x4096
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: NO
  Using trilinear texture filter.
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
Game Settings Table: Using Standard Loops For SEXP Arguments
Game Settings Table: Using standard event chaining behavior
Game Settings Table: External shaders are DISABLED
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-sdf.tbm' ...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 36, 'l_hit.wav'...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 37, 'm_hit.wav'...
Windows reported 16 joysticks, we found 0
Current soundtrack set to -1 in event_music_reset_choices
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_music-mus.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mus.tbm' ...
TABLES => Unable to find 'colors.tbl'. Initialising colors with default values.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-mfl.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-mfl.tbm' ...
Wokka!  Error opening file (armor.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'armor.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-amr.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-aip.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wxp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wxp.tbm' ...
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp20.eff) with 75 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (ExpMissileHit1.eff) with 92 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp04.eff) with 49 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp05.eff) with 93 frames at 20 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (capflash.eff) with 40 frames at 10 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (Maxim_Impact.eff) with 23 frames at 30 fps.
ANI Lamprey_Impact with size 80x80 (37.5% wasted)
BMPMAN: Found EFF (explo3.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (HFlakExp.eff) with 48 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (exp06b.eff) with 92 frames at 22 fps.
BMPMAN: Found EFF (bomb_flare.eff) with 69 frames at 20 fps.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-wep.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-obt.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'radar-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_assets-shp.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp-shp.tbm' ...
bp-shp.tbm(line 222): Error: Required token = [#End], [$Subsystem:], [$Name], or [$Template], found [$Glowpoint overrides: ( "red_glow_10:1,2" )].

ERROR: bp-shp.tbm(line 222):
Error: Required token = [#End], [$Subsystem:], [$Name], or [$Template], found [$Glowpoint overrides: ( "red_glow_10:1,2" )].

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 336
Int3(): From c:\code\fs2_open_0\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1253

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: coupster103 on June 04, 2013, 01:48:13 pm
this is after reinstalling AoA
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 04, 2013, 01:51:56 pm
1)
Code: [Select]
  -mod FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet,mediavps_3612Wat


2)
Code: [Select]
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\adv-bp.vp' with a checksum of 0x670cbd97
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x58f866a1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-audio2.vp' with a checksum of 0x213dcdf3
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-core.vp' with a checksum of 0xe5b684cd
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0x1604e6d1
Found root pack 'C:\GOG Games\Freespace 2\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\FreeSpace2\blueplanet\bp-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0xcb7237b9
Wat


3)
Code: [Select]
  -novbo
  -disable_fbo
  -no_glsl
  -disable_glsl_model
  -disable_di_mouse
Also, even though an integrated Intel GPU is rather weak, you can keep glowmapping and specular mapping active; the only visual effects that do make problems are those that explicitly require shader support (like normal mapping and postprocessing). In addition, using the -novbo and -use_gldrawelements commandline switches is not recommended unless you actually see corruption without them, as they both have a severe effect on performance.


4)
Code: [Select]
bp-shp.tbm(line 222): Error: Required token = [#End], [$Subsystem:], [$Name], or [$Template], found [$Glowpoint overrides: ( "red_glow_10:1,2" )].
In addition, you must use either the compatibility pack or the provided BP builds in order to play either of the BP campaigns.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Eagle1oh7 on June 22, 2013, 11:15:09 pm
Ok, been out of it for a while.  What's the latest and greatest?  I got OSX Lion BTW.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Eagle1oh7 on June 24, 2013, 09:19:04 am
No takers?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 24, 2013, 09:39:59 am
Uh, depends how long you've been out of it. There are pinned threads explaining how to navigate the increasingly-fractured set of SCP releases and get a version of Tenebra that'll work with them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Eagle1oh7 on June 24, 2013, 10:26:09 pm
Uh, depends how long you've been out of it. There are pinned threads explaining how to navigate the increasingly-fractured set of SCP releases and get a version of Tenebra that'll work with them.

Well as far as BP goes, I'm not sure until which chapter I got to.  I want to say it was after the Vasudan ambassador was killed or w/e.  I'll have to play through the damn thing again, I would like to with the newest build because I know that it was increasingly difficult even on regular difficulty levels and was something I think was discussed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on June 25, 2013, 01:16:37 am
You left of on chapter 2, chapter 3 has been released. It's in the stickys
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Naxal on June 26, 2013, 08:10:13 am
I always loose the ability to designate artillery targets after a while in Her Finest Hour.
Anyway to fix this?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 26, 2013, 08:23:28 am
No, that's a long-standing and mysterious bug. Designate your targets at the start, the artillery will remember the order you do it in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Naxal on June 26, 2013, 09:09:05 am
Well this time I could order them 'till the end :D

Also was way better then on my last playtrough depite nochting it up to hard and had barely any losses! :) 42 active units at the end.
But then the debrief said that losses were total?!   :confused:
I want my cookie! :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 26, 2013, 09:16:32 am
That is, IIRC, another long-standing and mysterious bug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on June 26, 2013, 09:18:40 am
 Don't worry, you'll have to replay when Acts 4 and 5 come around. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Naxal on June 26, 2013, 09:21:19 am
Pity :(
But I think I got some text about heavy, not total losses last playtrough (then tried to do better and lost even more lol)

Do you know what all the texts are or where to find them in the files?

 
Don't worry, you'll have to replay when Acts 4 and 5 come around. :p

We need to conspire to get the BP team members fired and left by their girlfriends to hurry that along  :drevil: 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 26, 2013, 10:44:08 am
What's a girlfriend
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on June 26, 2013, 05:09:41 pm
What's a girlfriend

Beats me.  :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on June 26, 2013, 05:47:41 pm
 I hear it's some form of metastatic chronovoric acataleptic life form.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on June 26, 2013, 09:23:02 pm
i think the source of the heavy losses bug has been discovered, if not actually fixed yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on June 28, 2013, 04:43:15 pm
I hear it's some form of metastatic chronovoric acataleptic life form.
It's something I have...

Spoiler:
... that you don't.  :pimp:

As for the mystery bug, I thought it was a feature. o.O When the artillery have low HP, they can't be used. I kept losing them a lot until I disabled the corvettes by scanning them. Then they finished off the game for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darien on June 29, 2013, 06:59:57 am
Finally finished this last week. Amazing work by all involved, this is easily the best mod I've played for any game, and it even eclipses Freespace 2 in many respects.

Please forgive me for asking this, but I really can't justify trawling through 200-odd pages of comment to find out - when's the next installment coming out? ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on June 29, 2013, 07:02:34 am
As always with work done for free, the deadline is "when it's done" :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on June 29, 2013, 10:27:37 am
As for the mystery bug, I thought it was a feature. o.O When the artillery have low HP, they can't be used. I kept losing them a lot until I disabled the corvettes by scanning them. Then they finished off the game for me.
The bug is that, regardless of health, it becomes impossible to designate artillery targets after a certain point in the mission. You can try, it just won't register.

The artillery withdrawing when low on health is intended.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on June 29, 2013, 11:11:47 am
You guys might be glad to hear that I re-played Tenebra the past days and liked it a lot better than the first time. I'm starting to warm up to it. :)

So when do we get to kick some more tev asses? :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on June 30, 2013, 01:10:50 am
More importantly, will I get to kick UEF ass?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darien on June 30, 2013, 08:57:16 am
Out of interest, what is the in-universe purpose for the rotating sections on EUF capital ships?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on June 30, 2013, 09:37:49 am
 Cheap gravity generators. Technically the rest of the ship should be rotating in the opposite direction, but I think the engine does not allow for that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 30, 2013, 10:28:51 am
Actually if you work it out the acceleration at the ends of those rotors is 13 gees or something. The team's position on what they're for was basically '**** knows' last time it was discussed, iirc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on June 30, 2013, 10:49:10 am
Quote
what is the in-universe purpose for the rotating sections on EUF capital ships?

To look awesome  :pimp:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on June 30, 2013, 10:52:00 am
I remember lots of tech room text and in-game dialog saying they're for artificial gravity (though maybe that's changed since last I checked -- the wiki still mentions "centrifugal" power generation. :wtf:)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on June 30, 2013, 10:52:21 am
Quote
So when do we get to kick some more tev asses?

Quote
More importantly, will I get to kick UEF ass?

Heres hoping that in BP3 we can join the Hammer of light and do both    :cool:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 30, 2013, 02:02:38 pm
Yes, the AoA Karuna violated thermodynamics by using its rotator for power generation.  That's what Shambhala is: a huge assembly of rotators powering a giant beam cannon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on June 30, 2013, 02:39:26 pm
I remember lots of tech room text and in-game dialog saying they're for artificial gravity (though maybe that's changed since last I checked -- the wiki still mentions "centrifugal" power generation. :wtf:)
Yeah... battuta exploded when he read that. Apparently not supposed to be there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on June 30, 2013, 07:08:33 pm
Yes, the AoA Karuna violated thermodynamics by using its rotator for power generation.  That's what Shambhala is: a huge assembly of rotators powering a giant beam cannon.
/me recently took up playing Dwarf Fortress, and this idea makes way too much sense (http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Water_Wheel#Perpetual_motion).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on June 30, 2013, 08:24:14 pm
they're gyroscopes designed to make uef ships turn slower so they're not overpowered
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: whitearrow on June 30, 2013, 08:56:27 pm
What's a girlfriend
here's a clue: she fills your heart, empties your wallet...  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on June 30, 2013, 09:04:55 pm
 Links to Battuta's explosion, please.

 In the mean time... *goes to model a ship with a bajillion centrifuges*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on June 30, 2013, 09:26:16 pm
I didn't know it was a power generator. I thought it was for artificial gravity or something like that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on July 01, 2013, 12:20:38 am
Links to Battuta's explosion, please.

 In the mean time... *goes to model a ship with a bajillion centrifuges*
Well, explosion as in, he went, "that's not supposed to happen, o god it's not true!" I'll dig through link eventually.

e: Either I remembered it wrong, or there's another thread on it. The one I found has battuta calmly explain that it's not canon.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=76556.msg1519871#msg1519871

e: Okay, he just denies that it's true at the very end of any centrifugal talk.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on July 01, 2013, 07:05:16 am
I didn't know it was a power generator. I thought it was for artificial gravity or something like that.
It's not, but the AoA tech description said it was.  Which violates thermodynamics, so the description was rewritten for WiH.  My bet is that it's used for gravity because it uses less power than the other way articial gravity is generated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on July 01, 2013, 11:25:22 am
As far as I'm concerned, it's "if it rotates, it does science". Simple and catchy enough.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 01, 2013, 11:45:20 am
you know i'm amazed overall that battuta can stay sane at all trying to write hard sci-fi on top of freespace gameplay
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on July 01, 2013, 04:45:17 pm
The spinning sections are melee anti-fighter weapons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JCDNWarrior on July 01, 2013, 08:40:24 pm
you know i'm amazed overall that battuta can stay sane at all trying to write hard sci-fi on top of freespace gameplay

Modding itself can have it's toll on sanity, at least temporarily ;)

It is definitely fascinating to see just how much detail is being put into all of this, definitely makes the experience even better, more believable even.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on July 01, 2013, 09:56:53 pm
I wanted to post a link to Belisarius' "War in Heaven" with the YT tags and make a clever terrible joke about 'Tutta, but no one has uploaded the damn song there yet. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 02, 2013, 09:35:00 am
Why don't you upload it yourself?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicClucker on July 02, 2013, 10:51:24 am
you know i'm amazed overall that battuta can stay sane at all trying to write hard sci-fi on top of freespace gameplay

I think choosing to write hard sci-fi robbed him of sanity to begin with. Now, I fear some of that may come back to haunt us in the next release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 02, 2013, 11:01:44 am
What the hell are you guys talking about. You might think this hard sci fi is too crazy for you, but could you please not project your fears unto other people's psyches? It's not like sci-fi thinking is some Ctuhluh cult of madness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicClucker on July 02, 2013, 11:06:01 am
What the hell are you guys talking about. You might think this hard sci fi is too crazy for you, but could you please not project your fears unto other people's psyches? It's not like sci-fi thinking is some Ctuhluh cult of madness.

\o/

You know that mission with the platforms? Yeah. That's madness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 02, 2013, 04:57:59 pm
What the hell are you guys talking about. You might think this hard sci fi is too crazy for you, but could you please not project your fears unto other people's psyches? It's not like sci-fi thinking is some Ctuhluh cult of madness.
um..... what the hell are YOU talking about?

they are commenting on the inherent difficulty of forcing a relatively "realistic" set of sci-fi rules into an already established universe that frankly didn't give a flying **** about them and not contradict said established canon. 

now whats all this about projecting fears?  :eek2:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on July 03, 2013, 01:21:19 am
you know i'm amazed overall that battuta can stay sane at all trying to write hard sci-fi on top of freespace gameplay

I think choosing to write hard sci-fi robbed him of sanity to begin with. Now, I fear some of that may come back to haunt us in the next release.
The Great Darkness is actually Battuta throwing his hands up and declaring everything since the Terran-Vasudan War to be one long Nagari sequence.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on July 03, 2013, 03:48:55 am
What the hell are you guys talking about. You might think this hard sci fi is too crazy for you, but could you please not project your fears unto other people's psyches? It's not like sci-fi thinking is some Ctuhluh cult of madness.
Klaustrophobia is right. You misinterpreted. Put it simply, people are amazed at how "hard" (also read: awesome) BP is compared to how "soft" FS1 and FS2 are. They're also praising battuta's organ.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 03, 2013, 05:14:58 am
Klaustrophobia is right. You misinterpreted. Put it simply, people are amazed at how "hard" (also read: awesome) BP is compared to how "soft" FS1 and FS2 are. They're also praising battuta's organ.

Be careful how you speak, you can also be misinterpreted in ways you are not expecting...!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on July 03, 2013, 08:50:54 am
Well, it is a long-standing HLP tradition to interpret other peoples' posts in the worst way possible. Feeling superior to your other forumites is far more important than maintaining an atmosphere of understanding and camaraderie.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on July 03, 2013, 09:17:40 am
 How "scientific" is the Great Darkness anyway?

 That "BP" could also be misread, btw.! :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on July 03, 2013, 03:06:19 pm
Klaustrophobia is right. You misinterpreted. Put it simply, people are amazed at how "hard" (also read: awesome) BP is compared to how "soft" FS1 and FS2 are. They're also praising battuta's organ.

Be careful how you speak, you can also be misinterpreted in ways you are not expecting...!
I forgot about Rian's exclusive mod featuring
Spoiler:
Mai Dique. :nervous: [/s]

I shouldn't have posted that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 03, 2013, 03:45:30 pm
Well, it is a long-standing HLP tradition to interpret other peoples' posts in the worst way possible. Feeling superior to your other forumites is far more important than maintaining an atmosphere of understanding and camaraderie.

You saying I'm presumptuous, moi?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 03, 2013, 04:25:39 pm
Stop it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Naxal on July 05, 2013, 02:07:21 pm
btw what about getting ship icons on the radar for all the new ships? The vanilla vp obviously doen't work for them :P
Seeing how the functionality already exists it seems like this shouldn't be much work and I'm wondering why mods don't do it  :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 05, 2013, 02:45:41 pm
radar icons are cool in theory, but pretty much wreck the radar's usefulness.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on July 05, 2013, 04:08:29 pm
 A better* addition would be an additional "Homeworld-esque" map view, where all the ships are color coded, without textures and low poly.

 *In my opinion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 05, 2013, 10:34:30 pm
Im generally totally unable to use the radar without icons, thats odd.

Though I tend to simplify them a bit so I can just have fighters, bombers, and various grades of capship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: coupster103 on July 06, 2013, 08:48:06 am
Anybody know when the next installment of BP is due for release?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 06, 2013, 08:57:19 am
No.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on July 06, 2013, 09:39:32 am
The day after hell freezes over  :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 06, 2013, 10:36:25 am
The day after hell freezes over  :D

Thats the day they will try to generate a concrete release date for us, anyways.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on July 06, 2013, 10:42:12 am
Anybody know when the next installment of BP is due for release?
When it's done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Veers on July 06, 2013, 10:53:47 am
Anybody know when the next installment of BP is due for release?
When it's done.

 :yes:

And a glorious day it shall be!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on July 06, 2013, 11:24:33 am
Can you give us an estimation, at least, how much of acts 4 and 5 are finished? :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on July 06, 2013, 11:46:31 am
I would say around cow% done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Piemanlives on July 06, 2013, 02:23:00 pm
I would say around cow% done.

Is it strange I tried to calculate that based off of where the letters fall into the 26 letters of the alphabet?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on July 06, 2013, 03:07:24 pm
Very. You should have calculated based on base-64 encoding.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on July 07, 2013, 02:04:15 am
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=cow+(unit)

There you have it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gunteen6 on July 07, 2013, 03:19:38 am
That puts it roughly 100 days out.

...that actually feels completely plausible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Piemanlives on July 07, 2013, 03:37:26 am
It does actually, well could be worse I guess.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 07, 2013, 10:06:56 am
100 days seems absolutely impossibly optmistic. I'd count at it being done somewhere around 2015. If.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on July 07, 2013, 10:27:14 am
Unfortunately, someone ate the cow that we were using to keep progress on. So work will have to be put on hold until we raise a new cow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on July 07, 2013, 09:46:27 pm
I would say around cow% done.
That puts it roughly 100 days out.

...that actually feels completely plausible.
I'd like to know how you got from "(100 days)% done" to "it will be done in 100 days".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 08, 2013, 06:33:23 am
Well, semantically % means "/ 100", so cow% = (100 days)/100 = 1 day, a promise Axem has already failed to deliver upon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Qent on July 08, 2013, 10:23:08 am
cow% done, not cow% remaining. So 24 hours of work have already been devoted to finishing the rest of War in Heaven.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 09, 2013, 12:25:07 am
there is a lot of failure to grasp the concept of percentage going on here...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on July 09, 2013, 08:39:28 pm
Perhaps "percent" is just the Nagari's closest sane approximation of the concept.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 09, 2013, 09:25:38 pm
cow% done, not cow% remaining. So 24 hours of work have already been devoted to finishing the rest of War in Heaven.

In which case Axem's statement is "1 day done". Interpretation of this is left as an exercise to the reader.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 10, 2013, 01:35:26 am
Or that means 1% done.  Or 100% done?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leeko on July 12, 2013, 03:26:14 pm
Okay, to get back on topic here... Something just struck me. I'm on my... fourth(?) replay of Tenebra. After the the third mission I noticed something strange in the Dreamscape. One of the lines of text where the ship class would normally be for Falconer says "Kovacs, let it go dear," or something to that effect, and one of Vidaura's says "They were good together." WERE FALCONER AND KOVACS LOVERS?! Or, wait, maybe she is talking about Laporte and Simms being good together. Because one of her other lines is, "A dancer on angel dust?" which was Simms describing Laporte. I dunno. Can a homie get a confirm/deny? Batoots?

Also, Falconer said something like "We're starting to think you are a combination of the three of us." Hahaha fourth wall ahaha. Clever, clever. Like when Laporte is all like, "There's two of me: one who comes out in the cockpit and one for the rest of the time." If this stuff isn't intentional I would be surprised. A+ writing, I notice something new every time I play... :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on July 12, 2013, 09:19:52 pm
my memory of the exact dialogue of the dreamscape is vague, but wouldn't falconer use 'dear' in a non-romantic context?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on July 13, 2013, 04:17:55 pm
 Sort of off the current topic but... I came across an article describing the Collective Unconscious, and it reminded me of Blue Planet.

 The Nagari network was defined by a semi-hidden comment as a way to bind a whole species together. And searching for information on the first phrase, I came across Carl Gustav Jung's theory of Dante Alighieri's depiction of hell being a representation of the disturbing side of the collective. This reminded me of BP because: during the madness sequences, one of the possible images is "The Garden of Earthly Delights" by Hieronymus Bosch. The image shows Earth, Heaven and Hell. The painting shows us a depiction of a trinity: Heaven, a place of Order; Earth, a place of Creation; and Hell, a place of Destruction. Each one of the three pieces can be assigned to facets of Blue Planet.

 Back to Nagari: It is intriguing how the Nagari network essentially serves as a way to fuse the thoughts of a species with their unconscious ones. The things that are described as your most basic skills, things you cannot share, things that are simply put, unconscious.

 Now, let's go back to those paintings: I have a sinking feeling that The Great Darkness is related to the collective unconscious, its disturbing side to be precise. The hidden horror in the union desired by the Council of Elders, the Vishnans, and maybe something else...

  Having said all of these things, I'd like to state that I am no expert in psychology, I am just sharing an interpretation of information I found. And as you can notice by the rushed formatting, it could be better described if took more time. But I wanted to post about this before I lost interest in the subject and moved on.

=================

 As an aside, I'd like to say I appreciate the (just discovered) aspects of the story from the GTVA and the Federation. Samuel Bei (And the GTVA) have been living a nightmare, eternally hounded by Shivans, but the Vishnans showed them that there is a counter balance to the darkness that fills their lives. WIH does the opposite, Noemi Laporte (and the comfy and campy-happy federation) is being shown by the Shivans that in spite of all the light the Vishnans have shown, there is an inherent darkness to the universe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Medve on July 13, 2013, 08:58:20 pm
I finally got around to play Act 3, and it was yet again a very unique experience (man, those missions were sweet). What stood out for me was some of the concepts and ways of thinking the Fedayeen employed. I could really identify with some of them, and this was probably the first time I saw the from an outside viewpoint. The whole simulation business and its introduction really caught my attention at the beginning of the campaign.

As a side note, since I didn't find a bug reporting thread, here are all the bugs I found:

-on "Her finest hour", I couldn't manage to get anything different than total loss of over 40 spaceframes, even though I played through it like 5 times. One of them didn't even include more than 15 ships, and another had about 10 losses. I saw a thread about this from January, and I am baffled too as to why this bug exists.
-whenever I order a repair pod on the Jupiter mission, I get pushed away at lightning speed once it reached its spot, and get destroyed. No idea why it happens.
-on the ending cutscene, some of my skybox planes are completely black, others are normal.

These really didn't have much of an impact, I had a great time. And the music was superb. Really blends well with the earlier selection of music tracks, which I also like very much.

Thank you for magnificent work!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Reloaded on July 13, 2013, 09:55:36 pm
Hey, does anyone know if music is still needed for a FS project? Where can I send some samples of my work?
I have one audio file that could go very well on a dogfight or something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Reloaded on July 13, 2013, 10:15:37 pm
The one I'm talking about has a quick beat (150bpm). It sounds something like "If you don't get there, everyone will die. Fight for your freedom!" hehe
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Klaustrophobia on July 14, 2013, 07:21:21 pm
best to post this in the general or modding sections, not BP specific forum.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Reloaded on July 17, 2013, 02:05:26 pm
Ok, now I do have a question about BP-WiH. Apparently the BankGothic Font is missing when I try to play WiH. Is it just me or is this perfectly normal in WiH? All started when I downloaded the full installation that included AoA+WiH. When I only had BP-AoA everything was fine.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on July 17, 2013, 04:24:26 pm
BP has changed the default font, it should only be different when the mod "blueplanet2" is active.  It is just that the new font isn't what you expected, or are there issues with viewing text?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 17, 2013, 04:53:07 pm
We decided to replace the standard font due to our massive walls of text. Bank Gothic is many things, readable in large quantities, however, not among them. Any font change is perfectly normal and intended.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Torchwood on July 18, 2013, 02:44:11 am
I like the new font, it's very legible. Could it be exported to be used in FS2 outside of BP? And for the matter, could the same be done for those sweet crosshairs?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 18, 2013, 02:58:15 am
Extracting the font is easy, just get the .vf files and font.tbl from the core VP. The reticle is just as easy, extract the hud_gauges.tbl and look up the entry there, then get the graphic it references from either the core vp or one of the visual vps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Reloaded on July 18, 2013, 04:32:02 pm
Oh I see. It's perfectly normal then. Thanks guys. There's no other issue (so far)   :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on August 11, 2013, 12:32:59 pm
Long-time lurker here. Lest my post look like a massive wall of negativity, let me say this right away: War in Heaven is my favorite Freespace campaign, hands down. Thank you for many hours of first-rate entertainment!

Here are some things I noticed.
Spoiler:
The Cost of War
Once or twice, the Leeuwenhoek took 16+ minutes to reach the gate (far longer than the rest of the convoy). I haven't been able to reproduce this.

Collateral Damage
I used to lose the Akula at the start of the mission, every time. But the latest version seems to have fixed this.

Post Meridian
I used to order the Grimler team to kill each individual Maxim fighter; when I opened the mission in FRED, I realized that they're smart enough to interpret "kill one of them" as "kill all of them". It would have been nice to know this during the mission.

Ken
It took me a while to figure out that pressing "T" lets you read the containers in order. I'm not sure how this could be made more intuitive, though.

For the Wrong Reasons
Killing the hostage without aspect missiles is tricky; my primaries seem to go right through her.

Darkest Hour
I often fail the mission when the Valerie arrives, either because the Indus dies or because I die trying to disarm the Valerie. (I play on Medium.) In the dev commentary, General Battuta mentions that in early versions of the mission, the Indus was indestructible, to prevent frustration. I think this is a good idea.

The Intervention
It bothers me that I can avoid the dogfight by just flying off; few of the other missions have such an easy way out, and the dogfight is not unreasonably difficult. ("My Brother, My Enemy" is an exception with which I'm completely comfortable.) It also seems odd that Simms can hold off four fighters single-handedly. Maybe both problems can be solved by making Simms die if the player abandons her?

Aristeia
I once saw the Hydra explode (obviously a big no-no). It happened after I loaded a checkpoint.

One Perfect Moment
During the first few seconds, the player is low enough to see the jagged textures on the moon's surface. It hurt my immersion a little bit.
I once collided with a building (circular, I think?) and got flung upwards an insane distance. I guess the building's physics were weird.

Deals in Shadows
Occasionally, one of the initial Gef fighters jumps out, breaking the mission (nothing happens afterward).

Nothing Is True
It's not obvious that scanning all of the miners first is the best strategy, because the convoy's scattering is unexpected - but the second time, you know what's coming. I guess I was uncomfortable with the use of "meta-knowledge" (not that it's necessary to pass the mission).

Everything is Permitted
The subsystems are slightly tricky to scan.

One Future
Why don't the SOC fighters show up when you destroy the habitat? I would have liked to see them more often.

Her Finest Hour
It took me several playthroughs to figure out that the reinforcements jump in near your position. I don't think this detail was mentioned anywhere.

Eyes in the Storm
The refinery sometimes ends up tilted at a weird angle - because a Satis collides with it, I suspect. The Kopis once undocked very early, possibly for the same reason.

Finally, I'd like to single out "My Brother, My Enemy" for praise. Words cannot describe its awesomeness. I'd noticed the improved AI before, but this is the mission where it really blew me away. The dogfight is fun, challenging, and a little bit different every time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on August 11, 2013, 04:20:30 pm
With respect to the scattering convoy, they actually tell you that in the briefing iirc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on August 11, 2013, 04:46:51 pm
With respect to the scattering convoy, they actually tell you that in the briefing iirc.

You're right, I just checked. D'oh!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on August 12, 2013, 01:07:58 pm
Yeah, the Leeuwenhoek  takes an insane amount of time to reach the gate... This happens everytime for me. I think it has something to do with the new model, because it worked perfectly pre-update.

Her Finest Hour
It took me several playthroughs to figure out that the reinforcements jump in near your position. I don't think this detail was mentioned anywhere.

Eyes in the Storm
The refinery sometimes ends up tilted at a weird angle - because a Satis collides with it, I suspect. The Kopis once undocked very early, possibly for the same reason.

I have to agree very much on the above points, especially the refinery glitch, it looks really weird when the docking happens.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 12, 2013, 01:14:17 pm
Yeah, the Leeuwenhoek  takes an insane amount of time to reach the gate... This happens everytime for me. I think it has something to do with the new model, because it worked perfectly pre-update.

That's an old bug, it's because its engines are very prone to getting disabled. I was under the impression it'd been fixed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BritishShivans on August 12, 2013, 10:44:50 pm
Yeah, the Leeuwenhoek  takes an insane amount of time to reach the gate... This happens everytime for me. I think it has something to do with the new model, because it worked perfectly pre-update.

That's an old bug, it's because its engines are very prone to getting disabled. I was under the impression it'd been fixed.

Wait, what? That's a bug? I thought that was just an oversight.  :confused:

For me the Leeuwenhoek was always plodding along at 10-15m/s. It was just bloody slow compared to the rest of the convoy. I wonder if there's a cap-waypoint-speed that fails to work/activate properly? Might be why it just plods along thousands of meters behind the rest of the convoy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on August 16, 2013, 03:06:27 pm
A couple of things I forgot to mention.

Spoiler:
1. Here's what happens at the very start of "Artemis Station": the station flashes into view, then the screen goes black, and then the station fades in. The "flash" doesn't happen in any of the other cutscenes.

2. I once shot the Nauticus in "For the Wrong Reasons", resulting in a failure debriefing - yet I was allowed to proceed in the campaign.

3. If I use the Mjolnirs in "Everything is Permitted", I get a long debriefing in which entire sections are duplicated.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on August 16, 2013, 11:35:09 pm
a long debriefing in which entire sections are duplicated.

I don't remember that from my replay where I did that, so maybe it was introduced recently?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on August 20, 2013, 01:28:21 pm
It would be interesting if you got more insight into the mindset of the opposing GTVA fighter pilots in acts 4-5. I have often wondered how the BP team see the mindset of the average TEV pilot. Would they be confident of victory knowing that the war will soon be reaching its endgame? Would the be afraid of fighting the UEF pilots knowing the losses that have been inflicted on their comrads? How do they feel towards the enemy and their own commanding officers? I know that in act 2 Simms warns Lapore about trying to understand the enemy but maybe in one mission her curiosity could get the better of her?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on August 20, 2013, 11:09:08 pm
. . . Or maybe she'll have occasion to fight alongside the enemy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AtomicClucker on August 24, 2013, 12:26:49 pm
. . . Or maybe she'll have occasion to fight alongside the enemy.

The ramifications of a Tev-Buntu Allaince might cause the Vishnan psyche to 'splode, or at least encourage the Shivans to have a barbecue. I vote barbecue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hopeful on August 25, 2013, 03:09:16 am
The ramifications of a Tev-Buntu Allaince might cause the Vishnan psyche to 'splode, or at least encourage the Shivans to have a barbecue. I vote barbecue.

But the silly Vishnans wanted Sammy Bei to ensure that in the first place, but now they poked Shiva and said 'YOU MUST PREPARE TO CULL!' they can't exactly go back on that for some reason, maybe they're incapable of humanlike thought-process? Or the're just mindless aliens like Noemi said. I mean come on dammit, it's only been like a year and a half. Give the ants some more time. It's almost like Vishnu is being the impatient one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on August 25, 2013, 04:19:41 am
It's not like they can predict the future with near 10000‱ accuracy with countless simulations of the future and stuff. They are just some spoiled impatient brats⸮
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on August 25, 2013, 04:36:16 am
Im more and more looking forward to when the Vishnans order the cull and the shivans say no. The UEF/Shivan alliance will be pretty formidable  ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hopeful on August 25, 2013, 06:24:51 am
Im more and more looking forward to when the Vishnans order the cull and the shivans say no. The UEF/Shivan alliance will be pretty formidable  ;)
Or maybe not something as powerful as a Shivan/UEF, maybe just a small Shivan battle fleet led by the Ken gestalt installed in a Demon alongside the Fedayeen?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on August 25, 2013, 07:31:33 am
Quote
Or maybe not something as powerful as a Shivan/UEF, maybe just a small Shivan battle fleet led by the Ken gestalt installed in a Demon alongside the Fedayeen?

Depends on whether we are heading for a UEF civil war once the TEVS are defeated in act 4. This would probably be enough for allowing the third fleet/Fedayeen to take Shambala from the Bei influenced First fleet/elders but if the Vishnans decide to interfere directly then I would expect things to escalate rather quickly
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on August 25, 2013, 11:03:40 am
Er. . . how do you know the TEVs will be defeated in Act 4?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on August 25, 2013, 11:16:12 am
Thats a secret  :cool:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on August 25, 2013, 11:55:42 am
Don't be coy. However, I will throw in my 2p: Act 4 will be titled "War in Heaven". Act 5 will be titled "Revenant".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on August 25, 2013, 12:36:30 pm
I was of course joking although I have stated before my belief in previous threads that the war will be decided in act 4 with act 5 encompasing the personal struggle for the soul of the UEF between Bei and Lapore as the respective avatars of the vishnan/shivan agendas
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on August 25, 2013, 11:44:49 pm
Im more and more looking forward to when the Vishnans order the cull and the shivans say no. The UEF/Shivan alliance will be pretty formidable  ;)
According to the "Ken" Node dialogue, they have been ordering a cull for quite some time already. The Shivans seem to be postponing it with random junk commands to avoid giving an answer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheyah on August 30, 2013, 07:14:47 am
We decided to replace the standard font due to our massive walls of text. Bank Gothic is many things, readable in large quantities, however, not among them. Any font change is perfectly normal and intended.

As a point, I'm wanting to do this due to having similar massive walls of text in what I'm doing.  The problem I'm having is I can't maintain the HUD in its lovely easily readable form since the font carries over to the rest of the game as well.  Is there an easy way to prevent this without rewriting the whole HUD?  Is rewriting the HUD preferable?  I love where Blue Planet has the messages show up, for example.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nikogori on October 16, 2013, 09:38:07 am
Hi,

I've been making fansub videos of Blue Planet: War in Heaven for Japanese viewers, as a tribute for this great mod.
http://nicoviewer.net/sm22020080

And I have a question. How do you say the word “Shuduhune”?

I need to transcribe English words into Japanese characters, but I couldn't find any information about it.
It would be very helpful if you could tell me how to pronounce “Shuduhune”.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on October 16, 2013, 04:39:02 pm
I believe it is Indian in origin, so it's an Indian->English->Japanese translation.

Spelling it how how I would say it would be like Shu-duh-who-nay

The Shu would be sharp like in "Shut the door"

Funny, only 7 google hits and they are all related to Blue Planet.

I'm not a mod or working on this project and reserve the right to be wrong on the internet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on October 16, 2013, 04:57:13 pm
Personally, I always read it as "Su-du-ne" But I am no expert in the field.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on October 17, 2013, 08:44:18 am
Weird, I thought it was some Native American tribe this whole time, but googling Shuduhune only returns WiH stuff.

I pronounce it Shoo-doo-hoo-nay, which I guess would be something like shu-zu-hu-ne, シュヅフネ? But really I have no idea what I'm talking about.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nikogori on October 17, 2013, 12:25:28 pm
Thank you for your information.

I think that this mod is planned to be voice acted, so there must be someone who knows how to say it. Maybe I should wait for the next release.

For now, I call it “シュドゥフネ(Shoo-doo-hoo-nay)” as a placeholder. This sounds like a boat or something because “フネ(hoo-nay)” means boats or ships in Japanese.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on October 20, 2013, 10:18:50 pm
I always thought it was shoo-doo-hoon because it flowed nicely, being a triplet of "u" sounds.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Reloaded on November 10, 2013, 12:43:46 pm
Hey, by any chance do you know what software was used to create BP and WiH music soundtracks?? :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 11, 2013, 01:56:07 am
Most of the music is odds and ends from other games and people like two steps from hell, so there's no real answer to that question.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 11, 2013, 02:37:48 am
I'm not sure if it's still "most" of our music that is third-party. Belisarius did a good job populating our soundtrack (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83356.0) (stickied, can't miss it if you tried) and we also have a fair amount of remixes by Darius.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 11, 2013, 02:41:09 pm
I'm not sure if it's still "most" of our music that is third-party.
So much as glancing at bp2-audio1.vp will tell you over half the music is third-party (even counting multipart mission music as one song). You could also just look at the music credits for War in Heaven (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71700.0) and count the 33 third-party music credits, compared to the 17 songs in Belisarius's soundtrack. Yes, Darius did a number of remixes. He did not do 16, however.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: dan112476 on November 12, 2013, 10:33:06 pm
So tonight I decided to play through act 3 after putting it off for many months. Boy was I stupid. After experiencing the conclusion, I came here and registered just so I could express my gratitude to the team for putting this magnificent work of art out there for all to enjoy. The mission design was flawless, especially the one in Jupiter's atmosphere. That was a very welcome and entertaining change of pace. The music was very moving and perfectly placed throughout. It truly added to the mood of the story which has been the very best thing about the entire mod in general, in my opinion. I am a fairly stoic guy but when Ken told LaPorte about Simms, I actually cried a little.  That never happens to me. Anyway, thank you very very much for putting in all the time it took to create this masterpiece. I can't wait to see how you conclude it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TigerZeta on November 30, 2013, 08:04:17 pm
I feel this doesn't warrant its own thread so I'll just put this here.

So, I've been going through the Act 2 missions after a break on insanity, (I haven't finished the third act, kind of gave up at the mission with the...err, beam platforms defending the enemy fleet. Hated the amount of commanding I had to do on it). and I'm wondering if Mission 7: My Brother, My enemy is actually
Spoiler:
possible to complete with any of the bonus objectives? I definitely see keeping wingmen alive absolutely impossible because they'll be shredded to pulps in a second. Heck, being able to not get shredded yourself (and finish the mission that way) seems very impossible. A good part of ihow you can complete the mission seems to depend on which SOC aces decide to target you. If it's one with long range missiles, you're boned because you have to engage him and can't put one of the others out of their misery and quickly. If you get lucky enough by getting targeted by Rabbit, or no one, you can - with some luck again - take him out with Dirks from afar. At best, I've managed to take out two aces before being offed myself, both with good hits with Dirks on them.

Kind of conflicting though, I want to finish that mission as perfectly as possible but I feel bad for the SOC aces, if I remember properly they were on a renegade mission of some sort. No memory who the person inside the prison? ship was.
Mind, this is on Insanity. I imagine it's very different on easier difficulties. I guess I'm more knowledgeable about the game than before  to notice how the AI dogfights 1 on 1 are actually easy. Don't think an AI can actually defeat a competent player because of the way the AI decides to start circling at close distance. It's the amount of fighters + them being somewhat competent that makes this mission difficult.


I also managed to
Spoiler:
kill Redoubtable's engines
on mission 6,
Spoiler:
stopping its escape, but making it stuck at 6% and making invincible and allowing it to continue hammer friendly targets. I imagine that's a bug of a sort (In that you never expected anyone to be crazy enough to actually do that)

On mission 5, as I never read the walkthroughs
Spoiler:
I was rather impressed to notice the "pacifist" route. Being able to circle around and stop the enemy from shooting was very neat, especially considering you can allow them to fire on you and start a bloodshed
I wish the same
Spoiler:
pacifist route
was kinda possible for Mission 7.

Also, got to love the accuracy of music cues in this game. Does FRED allow you to change tracks just as first shots are fired/hits are made?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on December 02, 2013, 12:47:07 pm
Mission 7 is highly variable on insane. At least for me, about 10-20% of attempts, I'll win the engagements and might even come through with >50% hp remaining. The rest of the time, I die sometimes as quickly as 3 seconds into the fight. The trick is flying behind your wingmen to let them draw aggro. Then you use them as AI screws/bait as you pick off their pursuers while trying not to die from being shot at by remaining hostiles. I've never once finished the mission while keeping my wingmen alive, but I'd imagine the only way to do it is to send them home once they're red health. That's quite a bit of micro when your hand can't leave the mouse without dying and you need to be cycling targets and spamming countermeasures and afterburners.

A general trick I've picked up and started to like for insane playthroughs is to always put 0 energy into shields regen. I only use the guns->shields function to recharge them, which means less wasted energy since you will avoid have shield energy sitting there at the same time as max shield hp. It's more economical to charge guns and engines only because they are never 100% full in a fight, whereas shields often will be. The extra energy can then keep you agile and/or provide more juice for demanding primaries, depending on what you need. Anyways, I've found it keeps me alive better once I adopted it, so it might be of use in mission 7 to keep yourself/wingmen alive?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuantumDelta on December 17, 2013, 08:51:35 am
I realise I'm a bit late to help ya, but on the attempts on mission 7 where I've been trying to keep my buddies alive, I do quite the opposite - I take the lead, long range missiles don't trouble the player but they can nearly insta-gib the AI, so I make sure they're all firing at me and let my AI do the shooting work, or I both dodge and attempt to kill but that's a bit more risky. I've never actively tried to save the AI while frapsing for frustration reasons (delete vid -> record vid -> delete vid ->), but it is doable, if you have a lot of faith in your guns you can try let the AI take the fire but I'd be impressed if you did it that way!

Departing the AI is the age of trick for completing missions like this, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FSHero on December 30, 2013, 11:12:08 am
WiH act 3 was released sometime in January 2013 I think. Unfortunately due to work-related reasons, I couldn't play this as much as I liked, so I restarted the whole thing this month and played it to its completion.

I would like to corroborate with the other posters to congratulate the WiH team on making so fine a mod. Gameplay, storyline, music: everything is spot on. To think that this is borne out of a hobby, with no funding, makes the mind insane!

There are mechanics implemented in act 3 that I never even thought possible using the Freespace 2 engine. Although my own inferior multitasking ability hindered my progress somewhat, I can see that the 'management' aspect of the game enhances the gameplay, and is certainly befitting the wing-leader role played by Laporte.

The playable cutscene at the end was the pinnacle of immersion -- especially when played late at night in a dark room! I cannot wait to see how the story pans out!

I wish I could contribute in some way to the progress of this mod; sadly I have no talents, save perhaps for composing music (even then, only with novice ability). I shall have to be content with simply playing the mod!

P.S. after watching the developer commentary on WiH act 1, only now have I begun to appreciate the amount of effort that has gone into this work. I think also that the development of this mod is as professional as any commercial game out there! Blessings to all of you who have contributed to this!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 12:37:01 pm
Does anyone know a fix to some problems i encounter in WiH:
1. I keep getting error reports about:
-Invalid species (example)-Invalid species UEF defined in table entry for ship UEB Durga
then:-Error!!
bp2-ship.tbm(line 3871):
Error:required token=[#End],[$Subsystem:], [$Name], or [$Template], found [$Glowpoint overrides: ("green_glow_20:1"red_glow_20:2-6")]
then:when i get in (after 400+errors) and select part 1 of campaign it says:
Error!
bp2-p1.fc2(line 191)
Error:Expecting int,found [BP2-Part1Start]
 Then when i try playing mission 1 it says:
Invalid weapon name
 
in sexpression: (when
(true)
(fade-out 8000)
(tech-add-weapons
vulcan
maul
rapier
scalpel
archer
point defense turret
burst flak
mass driver karuna
gauss cannon karuna
javelin
dart
dirk
paveway
hellfire
shrike
grimler
warhammer
sledgehammer
jackhammer
apocalypse karuna
gattler
uef meduim turret
uef heavy turret
)
[...]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 01:07:51 pm
This should be an easy fix - I suspect you either haven't selected the right build or you have some folders misplaced. We can sort it right out.

Please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 01:58:44 pm
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.6.18.9546
Passed cmdline options:
  -missile_lighting
  -3dshockwave
  -soft_particles
  -post_process
  -ballistic_gauge
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod BP2/blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -window
  -spec
  -glow
  -normal
  -env
Deprecated flag '-spec' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Deprecated flag '-glow' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Deprecated flag '-normal' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Deprecated flag '-env' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Building file index...
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4d6319c8
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x4f978a6b
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x64e738b9
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xbaa4dbd6
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x9689af32
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' with a checksum of 0x6b831455
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd1e3fc51
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\Root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' ... 33 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 243 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 92 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 682 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\BP2/blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2480 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet\' ... 0 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\' ... 6 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\Root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 28 roots and 17385 files.
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".

  Sample rate: 44100 (44100)
  EFX version: 1.0
  Max auxiliary sends: 1
  Playback device: Generic Software on HD Audio rear output 2
  Capture device: HD Audio rear input
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1680x1050 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor    : ATI Technologies Inc.
  OpenGL Renderer  : ATI Radeon HD 3600 Series
  OpenGL Version   : 2.1.7278 Release

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ATI_shader_texture_lod".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_float".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Depth-blended Particles
Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Distorted Particles

  Compiling post-processing shader 1 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 2 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: blur-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 3 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: blur-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 4 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: brightpass-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 5 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-f.sdr
Vertex shader failed to compile:
Vertex shader failed to compile with the following errors:
WARNING: 0:6: extension 'GL_EXT_gpu_shader4' is not supported
ERROR: 0:10: 'noperspective' : syntax error parse error
ERROR: 1 compilation errors.  No code generated.


ERROR! Unable to create vertex shader!
Error while compiling FXAA shaders. FXAA will be unavailable.
  Compiling post-processing shader 6 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaapre-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 7 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: ls-f.sdr

  Max texture units: 8 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 2147483647
  Max elements indices: 16777215
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Max render buffer size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  OpenGL Shader Version: 1.20
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
Game Settings Table: Using Standard Loops For SEXP Arguments
Game Settings Table: Using standard event chaining behavior
Game Settings Table: External shaders are DISABLED
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-turretHotkey-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-equip-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Too many icons in icons.tbl; only the first 105 will be used" at missionbriefcommon.cpp:354
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 36, 'l_hit.wav'...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 37, 'm_hit.wav'...
sounds.tbl(line 629): Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, 1, 200, 400         ]  instead.

ERROR: sounds.tbl(line 629):
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, 1, 200, 400         ]  instead.

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 336
Int3(): From c:\code\fs2_open_3_6_18\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1253

i think this is it,thx
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 02:17:01 pm
Your blueplanet folders need to be located in D:\FreeSpace2.

This is what you have right now:

D:\FreeSpace2\BP2\blueplanet2
D:\FreeSpace2\BP2\blueplanet

You need to have:

D:\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2
D:\FreeSpace2\blueplanet

Your mistake was sticking the Blue Planet install inside a BP2 folder. Fix that and hopefully everything will work!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 02:22:42 pm
Ok, in addition, your GPU is pretty old - I suggest installing this compatibility package (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83606.0) and then (you MUST do this!) downloading and using a 3.7.0 release build. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=85435.0)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 02:39:51 pm
i have a compatibillity installed and using a nightly build
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 02:41:07 pm
Then just fix the file structure problem and you should be good to go.

Your blueplanet folders need to be located in D:\FreeSpace2.

This is what you have right now:

D:\FreeSpace2\BP2\blueplanet2
D:\FreeSpace2\BP2\blueplanet

You need to have:

D:\FreeSpace2\blueplanet2
D:\FreeSpace2\blueplanet

Your mistake was sticking the Blue Planet install inside a BP2 folder. Fix that and hopefully everything will work!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 02:43:38 pm
And still doesnt work  :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 02:45:00 pm
Generate and post another debug log.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 02:45:43 pm
==========================================================================
DEBUG SPEW: No debug_filter.cfg found, so only general, error, and warning
categories can be shown and no debug_filter.cfg info will be saved.
==========================================================================
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.7.1
Passed cmdline options:
  -missile_lighting
  -3dshockwave
  -soft_particles
  -post_process
  -ballistic_gauge
  -dualscanlines
  -orbradar
  -rearm_timer
  -targetinfo
  -3dwarp
  -ship_choice_3d
  -weapon_choice_3d
  -warp_flash
  -snd_preload
  -mod blueplanet2,blueplanet,mediavps_3612
  -window
  -profile_frame_time
  -spec
  -glow
  -normal
  -env
Deprecated flag '-spec' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Deprecated flag '-glow' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Deprecated flag '-normal' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Deprecated flag '-env' found. Please remove from your cmdline.
Building file index...
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4d6319c8
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' with a checksum of 0x4f978a6b
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-compat.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c7d79f8
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' with a checksum of 0x64e738b9
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' with a checksum of 0xbaa4dbd6
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' with a checksum of 0x9689af32
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' with a checksum of 0x4b8b0f5a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' with a checksum of 0x6a554026
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x59649c21
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' with a checksum of 0x529cc70f
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' with a checksum of 0x6b831455
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd1e3fc51
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' with a checksum of 0x9c510aa0
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' with a checksum of 0xb9a9a485
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' with a checksum of 0x31dd7781
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' with a checksum of 0x6ffd5c78
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\Root_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xce10d76c
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\smarty_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xddeb3b1e
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x164fe65a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xa11d56f1
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\stu_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd77da83a
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango1_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x4c25221e
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango2_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x86920b82
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango3_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0x705e8d71
Found root pack 'D:\Freespace2\warble_fs2.vp' with a checksum of 0xd85c305d
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\adv-bp2.vp' ... 33 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-audio1.vp' ... 243 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-compat.vp' ... 1 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-core.vp' ... 92 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals1.vp' ... 682 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet2\bp2-visuals2.vp' ... 2480 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\blueplanet\' ... 0 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\' ... 0 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Advanced.vp' ... 1283 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_AnimGlows.vp' ... 1641 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.3612.vp' ... 315 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Assets.vp' ... 1527 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_1.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_CB_ANI_2.vp' ... 52 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.3612.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Effects.vp' ... 1876 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_RadarIcons.vp' ... 24 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\mediavps_3612\MV_Root.vp' ... 94 files
Searching root 'D:\Freespace2\' ... 6 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\Root_fs2.vp' ... 157 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\smarty_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_fs2.vp' ... 3027 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\sparky_hi_fs2.vp' ... 1337 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\stu_fs2.vp' ... 2355 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango1_fs2.vp' ... 32 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango2_fs2.vp' ... 15 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\tango3_fs2.vp' ... 10 files
Searching root pack 'D:\Freespace2\warble_fs2.vp' ... 52 files
Found 29 roots and 17386 files.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Setting language to English
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_core-lcl.tbm' ...
Game Settings Table: Using Standard Loops For SEXP Arguments
Game Settings Table: Using standard event chaining behavior
Game Settings Table: External shaders are DISABLED
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : Creative Labs Inc.
  OpenAL Renderer   : Software
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1

  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".

  Sample rate: 44100 (44100)
  EFX version: 1.0
  Max auxiliary sends: 1
  Playback device: Generic Software on HD Audio rear output 2
  Capture device: HD Audio rear input
... OpenAL successfully initialized!
Failed to init speech
Initializing OpenGL graphics device at 1680x1050 with 32-bit color...
  Initializing WGL...
  Requested WGL Video values = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  Actual WGL Video values    = R: 8, G: 8, B: 8, depth: 24, stencil: 8, double-buffer: 1
  OpenGL Vendor    : ATI Technologies Inc.
  OpenGL Renderer  : ATI Radeon HD 3600 Series
  OpenGL Version   : 2.1.7278 Release

  Using extension "GL_EXT_fog_coord".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_multitexture".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_add".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_compression".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_compression_s3tc".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_filter_anisotropic".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_env_combine".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_compiled_vertex_array".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_draw_range_elements".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_mirrored_repeat".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_non_power_of_two".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_pixel_buffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_SGIS_generate_mipmap".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_framebuffer_object".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_rectangle".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_bgra".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_cube_map".
  Using extension "GL_EXT_texture_lod_bias".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_point_sprite".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shading_language_100".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_shader_objects".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_vertex_shader".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_fragment_shader".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ATI_shader_texture_lod".
  Using extension "GL_ARB_texture_float".
  Unable to find extension "GL_ARB_draw_elements_base_vertex".
  Found special extension function "wglSwapIntervalEXT".

Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Depth-blended Particles
Compiling new shader:
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: soft-f.sdr
Shader features:
   Distorted Particles

  Compiling post-processing shader 1 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 2 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: blur-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 3 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: blur-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 4 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: brightpass-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 5 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaa-f.sdr
Vertex shader failed to compile:
Vertex shader failed to compile with the following errors:
WARNING: 0:6: extension 'GL_EXT_gpu_shader4' is not supported
ERROR: 0:10: 'noperspective' : syntax error parse error
ERROR: 1 compilation errors.  No code generated.


ERROR! Unable to create vertex shader!
Error while compiling FXAA shaders. FXAA will be unavailable.
  Compiling post-processing shader 6 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: fxaapre-f.sdr
  Compiling post-processing shader 7 ...
   Loading built-in default shader for: post-v.sdr
   Loading built-in default shader for: ls-f.sdr

  Max texture units: 8 (16)
  Max elements vertices: 2147483647
  Max elements indices: 16777215
  Max texture size: 8192x8192
  Max render buffer size: 8192x8192
  Can use compressed textures: YES
  Texture compression available: YES
  Post-processing enabled: YES
  Using trilinear texture filter.
  OpenGL Shader Version: 1.20
... OpenGL init is complete!
Size of bitmap info = 742 KB
Size of bitmap extra info = 48 bytes
ANI cursorweb with size 24x24 (25.0% wasted)
GRAPHICS: Initializing default colors...
SCRIPTING: Beginning initialization sequence...
SCRIPTING: Beginning Lua initialization...
LUA: Opening LUA state...
LUA: Initializing base Lua libraries...
LUA: Beginning ADE initialization
ADE: Initializing enumeration constants...
ADE: Assigning Lua session...
SCRIPTING: Beginning main hook parse sequence....
Wokka!  Error opening file (scripting.tbl)!
TABLES: Unable to parse 'scripting.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_flak-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_dbrs-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_exp-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-turretHotkey-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-trigger-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-tcard-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-stupid-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-equip-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-debrisgrav-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-csc-sct.tbm' ...
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'bp2-betty-sct.tbm' ...
SCRIPTING: Inititialization complete.
SCRIPTING: Splash screen overrides checked
SCRIPTING: Splash hook has been run
SCRIPTING: Splash screen conditional hook has been run
Using high memory settings...
Wokka!  Error opening file (interface.tbl)!
WMCGUI: Unable to parse 'interface.tbl'!  Error code = 5.
TBM  =>  Starting parse of 'mv_effects-sdf.tbm' ...
WARNING: "Too many icons in icons.tbl; only the first 105 will be used" at missionbriefcommon.cpp:347
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 36, 'l_hit.wav'...
Dutifully ignoring the extra sound values for retail sound 37, 'm_hit.wav'...
sounds.tbl(line 629): Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, 1, 200, 400         ] instead.

ERROR: sounds.tbl(line 629):
Error: Missing required token: [#Flyby Sounds End]. Found [$UEF:      0   T_flyby1.wav,   0, 0.75, 1, 200, 400         ] instead.

File: parselo.cpp
Line: 333
Int3(): From c:\code\fs2_open_0\code\globalincs\windebug.cpp at line 1253
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 01, 2014, 02:48:31 pm
You need to have Blue Planet 1 and its compatibility pack installed as well. If you used the Complete installer, it should have installed the blueplanet mod as well, its folder needs to be in the same place as the blueplanet2 folder.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 02:50:06 pm
One question:i had WiH in a folder named BP and inside was blueplanet,and it wokred even without compatibillity,why doesnt this work
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 02:51:47 pm
YES IT WORKS!!!! OMG thx man, been trying to fix it for weeks,im in your debpt.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 02:58:22 pm
Spoke to soon, in mission 1,i get a report asteroid LODs are missing,and then,when im chasing a herc,i crash,plus the game runs super slow, around 20 fps without mediavps advanced,while with it i go around 60 in retail,and 40 in WiH,what the hell is happening?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 01, 2014, 02:59:10 pm
FreeSpace 2 Open version: 3.7.1
Is that one of the recent nightlies, or are you using a BP build with the compatibility pack?

Spoke to soon, in mission 1,i get a report asteroid LODs are missing,and then,when im chasing a herc,i crash,plus the game runs super slow, around 20 fps without mediavps advanced,while with it i go around 60 in retail,and 40 in WiH,what the hell is happening?
Are you playing with a Debug build? That will give you poor performance.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:02:25 pm
Spoke to soon, in mission 1,i get a report asteroid LODs are missing,and then,when im chasing a herc,i crash,plus the game runs super slow, around 20 fps without mediavps advanced,while with it i go around 60 in retail,and 40 in WiH,what the hell is happening?

Sounds like you didn't switch back to a release build from debug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:05:39 pm
OK,im using the most,or maybe second most recent nightie, i switched from debug, ran at 60-30 fps,and then,when i damaged a herc up close,crash
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:12:47 pm
Stop using the nightly. Use 3.7.0 release. If that doesn't work, use the latest Windows build from the BP build repository.

And please post your latest debug log from the setup that gives you this crash, just in case.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:18:08 pm
Its to large,it doesnt allow me to post,exceeds 50k characters
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 01, 2014, 03:18:52 pm
Its to large,it doesnt allow me to post,exceeds 50k characters

Attach it to your post; don't try to paste it there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:19:39 pm
umm how to do that
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:22:38 pm
Just use pastebin.com and then link us to the pastebin.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:24:04 pm
http://pastebin.com/sxdN5cNR
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:26:21 pm
OK, roll back to a 3.7.0 release build or the latest build from the BP repository. Your GPU isn't quite up to snuff, so it might help you to get rid of the adv VPs, which have some huge textures.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:29:30 pm
still crashes
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:31:15 pm
Are you using a release BP build from the build repository?

The_E thought your GPU drivers might be corrupt. Reinstall them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:33:13 pm
one more thing:this isnt exclusive to BP: every engine has a black sphere behind it,why?
i mean,like a very thin circle changing directions as you look at a different angle or the ship moves.
And the BP version doesnt even start
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:35:26 pm
Reinstall your GPU drivers. If the build from the BP build repository won't start, run its debug version and post the log.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 01, 2014, 03:35:34 pm
one more thing:this isnt exclusive to BP: every engine has a black sphere behind it,why?
i mean,like a very thin circle changing directions as you look at a different angle or the ship moves.
And the BP version doesnt even start
Try using the "Disable GLSL (shader) support" launcher option.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:38:34 pm
Right, I forgot, you should probably stick to 3.7.0 instead of the repository build. But please do reinstall your GPU drivers, and definitely try disabling GLSL.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:46:23 pm
The BP build does start,but the weapons appear as white spheres.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 01, 2014, 03:47:18 pm
The BP build does start,but the weapons appear as white spheres.
And how does 3.7.0 run?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:50:28 pm
as i said,it runs but crashes when i hit herc
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2014, 03:51:04 pm
Even with GLSL disabled and your GPU drivers reinstalled?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 03:54:31 pm
Didnt reinstall GPU drivers,its kinda late where im from,dont have the time to search for drivers
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 01, 2014, 04:09:34 pm
IT WORKS!!!! YEAH!!!
atleast for,now the first mission didnt crash,i managed to play the mission untill i got killed by the boanerges wing
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on January 07, 2014, 01:06:28 pm
Do bp1 and bp2 work with the new 2014 mediavps without patching? If not, do we have an ETA for when we could expect a patch? :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 07, 2014, 01:08:43 pm
Probably not, but give them a spin and let us know!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: LapsedPacifist on January 07, 2014, 05:30:25 pm
On 3.7.1 BP (from the BP installer) at least it falls over giving an error message about species countermeasures, not that surprisingly given that similar errors have been seen elsewhere. I assume it would work with a BP patched nightly, or more recent build but don't have time to try it right now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 08, 2014, 10:29:31 am
Blue Planet works fine,passed all missions,even with 2014 media vps,no compatibillity needed,just change mod.ini
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: blowfish on January 09, 2014, 05:57:33 pm
Were you running a debug build?  Release builds may hide minor issues that would still count as incompatibility.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dovahkiin2132 on January 11, 2014, 06:23:41 am
Works fine on both debug and normal build.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on January 12, 2014, 04:29:03 am
Is there a way for custom tbm's for 2D radar icons to NOT overwrite glowpoint lights? Right now, a tbm with these entries:

$Name:       GTF Aurora
+nocreate
$Radar Image 2D:          radar-fighter


will cause the existing entry's glowpoint_overrides to disappear. Preferably, I'd like a fix that doesn't involve manually copy-pasting the glowpoint overrides into the 2D radar table.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on January 12, 2014, 05:46:20 am
Your tbm has a different name than the one containing the glowpoint overrides, right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on January 12, 2014, 06:02:19 am
Yes. Should it be the same?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 12, 2014, 03:57:15 pm
Greeting everyone!
So I wanted to see how do new MediaVP's look like, and ended up replaying the whole Blue Planet. Or rather almost the whole - Universal Truth 2 fails to load. The log is here: http://pastebin.com/HmANcCv2
FSO's memory usage at the point of crash is 1.7-1.8GB, with a GB still free. I'll appreciate any help with the problem.

On the bright side, even without the benefit of surprise, WiH still manages to be even better than the first time I played it. This is especially true for Tenebra's gameplay, where taking a year-long break apparently does wonders for your perspective :) Anyway, just wanted to give a huge thank-you to you guys. Besides this and the two old bugs in Her Finest Hour I had no other problems in any of the three campaigns.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 12, 2014, 04:52:20 pm
Hrmm.. I've seen several "malloc failed" errors at that place in the logs, but normally with Intel cards.  Could you please try:

1) update your graphics card drivers

If that doesn't work or they are already up to date:

2) add the "-no_glsl" command line flag (Advanced Settings -> Troubleshoot -> Disable GLSL (shader) support

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 12, 2014, 06:05:53 pm
Tried both, same error :/
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 13, 2014, 02:52:10 am
Greeting everyone!
So I wanted to see how do new MediaVP's look like, and ended up replaying the whole Blue Planet. Or rather almost the whole - Universal Truth 2 fails to load. The log is here: http://pastebin.com/HmANcCv2
FSO's memory usage at the point of crash is 1.7-1.8GB, with a GB still free. I'll appreciate any help with the problem.

On the bright side, even without the benefit of surprise, WiH still manages to be even better than the first time I played it. This is especially true for Tenebra's gameplay, where taking a year-long break apparently does wonders for your perspective :) Anyway, just wanted to give a huge thank-you to you guys. Besides this and the two old bugs in Her Finest Hour I had no other problems in any of the three campaigns.

Ah yes... the good ole Malloc Failed on UT2 has returned! I also had this error on my playthrough of tenebra a long ways back (Just after release) and it is caused by:
Spoiler:
the huge HTL Sathanas fleet glassing Earth
somehow using the retail model doesnt give this error, but using the HTL (which is shipped with the 2014 MVPs) does cause it. At the time The_E's advice was to not use standalone HD Models as they were not supported, but now since the 2014 MVPs are standard issue now, I think it would be fair to ask to update that particular mission or something?

On another note, my theory is that the crash is due to less VRAM.... I have recently upgraded to a 2GB card (earlier had 1GB VRAM), I'll try to see if the crash still occurs.

E: Just tried out the mission (CTrl-Shift-S) and it works flawlessly. Nothing else has changed in my system save for the video card upgrade. So I guess it is a VRAM issue?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 13, 2014, 05:26:22 am
Well... I just tried UT2 from the techroom, with mediavps_2014, using my 1GB Nvidia GTS 450 and it loaded just fine. Still - what model of video card do you have, both the old & new?

Meneldil - maybe you could try with mediavps_3612 and see if the UT2 crash-when-loading problem still occurs?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 13, 2014, 05:58:51 am
At the time The_E's advice was to not use standalone HD Models as they were not supported, but now since the 2014 MVPs are standard issue now, I think it would be fair to ask to update that particular mission or something?

When it comes time to make the next patch (sometime after the new installer has gone live, I reckon), BP will be tested and dependant on the 2014 MVPs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 13, 2014, 08:51:27 am
that seems like a smart approach :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 13, 2014, 10:32:47 am
Meneldil - maybe you could try with mediavps_3612 and see if the UT2 crash-when-loading problem still occurs?
Aghh... that's the first thing i thought i tried, but i forgot to check what the launcher was loading: it needed a restart after changing the mod.ini file.
And yeah, the mission loads just fine with the old mediavp's, and i have a 512MB card. So Cybertrance is probably right on all accounts. Thanks for the help, guys!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 13, 2014, 10:38:49 am
Huh. I wonder if we'll have to pack the old Sathanas model and give it a separate table entry, then use it in that mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 13, 2014, 10:58:11 am
If you want me to, i can check if it's only the Sathanas that's causing the problem (although i guess it has to be), just tell me what to extract and where to override the new one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 13, 2014, 11:00:05 am
Huh. I wonder if we'll have to pack the old Sathanas model and give it a separate table entry, then use it in that mission.
Can't you make a separate table that uses the Lod models after 0?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 13, 2014, 12:00:01 pm
Well... I just tried UT2 from the techroom, with mediavps_2014, using my 1GB Nvidia GTS 450 and it loaded just fine. Still - what model of video card do you have, both the old & new?


The old one was a 1GB HD 5770
New one is a 2GB HD 7870

Huh. I wonder if we'll have to pack the old Sathanas model and give it a separate table entry, then use it in that mission.

Aww... Well if it has to be done for legacy issues than fine, but I must say, dem HD Sathies look freaking awesome in UT2!

If you want me to, i can check if it's only the Sathanas that's causing the problem (although i guess it has to be), just tell me what to extract and where to override the new one.

First thing you could do, is simply try the old (3612) mediavps and report any crashing (or lack thereof).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 13, 2014, 12:03:26 pm
(ignore this)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on January 13, 2014, 02:39:39 pm
Wouldn't deleting the advanced_vp of MVP2014 be enough? That would halve texture resolution from 4k to 2k on the Sath IIRC.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Meneldil on January 13, 2014, 03:43:54 pm
First thing you could do, is simply try the old (3612) mediavps and report any crashing (or lack thereof).
Already did that :) http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70746.msg1729476#msg1729476 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70746.msg1729476#msg1729476)
Anyway i guess there ought to be others with older hardware who can test any solution you'd want to try, but if not, i'd be glad to help.
And if replacing the Sath model in UT2's the only thing to do, i guess you can always release that as a separate patch to not affect those who have no problems running it.

@Kolgena: unfortunately no, whatever it does isn't enough
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Crybertrance on January 14, 2014, 06:46:27 am
First thing you could do, is simply try the old (3612) mediavps and report any crashing (or lack thereof).
Already did that :) http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70746.msg1729476#msg1729476 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70746.msg1729476#msg1729476)



Sorry about that, reading comprehension fail. :nono:

As for the updates I think I'd leave it up to the Devs to figure out the best compromise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 21, 2014, 04:05:10 pm
I was just combing intel entries and caught this.

Quote
Decorations: Allied Defence Citation. (2366) Capella Incursion Campaign Star. (2367) Nebula Campaign Victory Star. (2367) NTF Campaign Victory Star (2367). GTVA Legion of Honor (2367), Citation Excerpt: Captain Anita Lopez, Galactic Terran Vasudan Alliance, distinguished herself by actions above and beyond the call of duty, on October 7th, 2367, while serving as Acting Commanding Officer of the GTD Carthage, GTVA Third Fleet, during the Nebula Campaign. Captain Lopez used the Carthage as a base of fire at the Knossos Jump Node, in the nebula, while subjected to heavy Beam Fire and anti-capital ship warheads from large numbers of Shivan craft. While providing overwatch for the mass exodus of Alliance Forces from the Nebula, Captain Lopez was notified of orders to withdraw immediately, citing an imminent Shivan Incursion. Aware that more ships were attempting to rendezvous at the Knossos Portal, Captain Lopez maintained her position for a further eighty-five minutes, during which the Carthage and her Fighters and Bombers were able to repel wave after wave of Shivan attackers, including ships corvette class and above. Captain Lopez's actions saved the lives of over a thousand men and women of the Alliance, upholding great credit to herself, her crew...

Poor ****ing Lopez. She'd pulled it off before. Just get everyone home one more time...  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 21, 2014, 04:17:57 pm
Wow. I feel even better about ending her carreer now! :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 21, 2014, 04:19:23 pm
Gah.  That makes me even more pissed at Steele for putting her in that position in the 1st place.  Shoulda picked someone else to be the bait matie!  :mad:

Wow. I feel even better about ending her carreer now! :D

 :nono:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cazzym on January 26, 2014, 04:37:04 pm
As a side note, since I didn't find a bug reporting thread, here are all the bugs I found:

-on "Her finest hour", I couldn't manage to get anything different than total loss of over 40 spaceframes, even though I played through it like 5 times. One of them didn't even include more than 15 ships, and another had about 10 losses. I saw a thread about this from January, and I am baffled too as to why this bug exists.

Can I also get a response on this? New user, love Blue Planet, but was always troubled by this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 26, 2014, 04:38:45 pm
Something about the way the variable is recorded is ****ed. It's not resetting between plays, so every time you play the mission the var increases, but it never resets to zero as it should. I'm not sure why, since all the logic seems completely clean, but it's probably something stupidly obvious. We'll (hopefully) have it fixed for the Director's Cut release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on January 26, 2014, 05:34:10 pm
Gah.  That makes me even more pissed at Steele for putting her in that position in the 1st place.  Shoulda picked someone else to be the bait matie!  :mad:

Wow. I feel even better about ending her carreer now! :D

 :nono:



In this case, is Steele really more to blame than Lopez since if Lopez would have departed when ordered the Carthage probably would still be a GTVA vessel?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 26, 2014, 10:20:22 pm
I think Steele was just using his pieces the best way he could, and Lopez ended up being weaker than he thought.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 26, 2014, 11:07:40 pm
Well, if a Theatre Commander throws a Hecate into the front lines for no good reason and it's lost, is it the Hecate Captain that is at fault?

Lopez was Steele's best Admiral, but there was a known weakness in certain situations.  So rather than waste an excellent asset by removing them from command, or removing them from the theatre, you work around the weakness and that would include not using said Admiral + Fleet as bait in operation that's likely to result in a crapton of casualties - and thus render said fleet unfit for combat.  (yes, I'm being unfair, obviously combat is not a place where you can expect to ensure that said weakness is never exposed).

Conversely of course, there's the question of whether the trap would have worked in the 1st place if another Admiral was the bait, one that didn't care so much about their crews...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 27, 2014, 12:04:48 am
He didn't have any other assets that could have defended the station without compromising other outposts, most likely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 27, 2014, 04:33:07 am
She was not the commander of a Hecate, and all this is slightly unfair. Admiral Lopez was a brilliant commander with a very slight edge that proved a liability in a very narrow set of conditions, all of which were deliberately produced by a joint endeavour by the Fedayeen and Calder, all calculated by a terrible quantum computer machine whose power had only now begun to be taken notice by Steele.

All this criticism lies in the face of an impossible alternative world where all admirals are perfect and brilliant with no fragilities on their own, and only in such a fantasy world would Lopez be regarded as a liability and a fragile weak point. As it is, every single actor in the war has its own fragilities, and those who are able to recognize them and manipulate everything in such a manner to take advantage of those weak spots are able to gain points in the game. Steele had just done that wrt the Wargods, now the Fedayeen did so wrt Lopez.

Hindsight is 20/20 and thus extremely unfair for those who lose. Yes, Lopez lost, but then again there was a whole machinery and trickery in motion to get her. That's the disadvantage of working in the defensive, where you are giving out to the enemy the initiative. Had the Fedayeen been less successful (and the multiple fail scenarios of that mission are a testament to how flimsy their chances were), the blowback would have been immense and Lopez would have been highly regarded by the Security Council (and perhaps only Steele would be pissed that she proved an unreliable asset).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 27, 2014, 03:21:44 pm
Plus in the end Steele got two new taskforces, so the loss of the Carthages won't hurt him that much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Flak on January 28, 2014, 01:08:19 am
It is still a Xanatos Speed Chess, mostly Steele vs Fedayeen and Calder. That is unless Byrne used the chaos caused by the Fedayeen to sneak a pawn into the end of the board.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 28, 2014, 04:15:31 am
that is a good metaphor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 28, 2014, 04:49:27 am
Replying to your earlier post, I'll admit to a little unfairness but not a lot.  Consider that Steele leaked (or gave approval to leak) Lopez's psychological profile to the UEF and the contents of that profile formed the cornerstone of the UEF/Steele plan to trap Lopez/The Wargods at Saturn. He obviously knew about the weakness, he was relying on it. Then he deployed Lopez and the Carthage to Neptune's defence in a similar situation. Maybe there wasn't anyone else to deploy but still, Steele's has a weakness with the human element in his plans, and the Fedayeen are exploiting it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 28, 2014, 04:56:47 am
Everyone has flaws and weaknesses. It would be a boring plot without them. "Oh look I'm perfect and flawless and every single plan you will make will fail because I am without flaws and weaknesses, haven't I told you already? What, do you expect to take something out of my surrogates' psychological profile? You WON'T BE ABLE TO, since I've tweaked every single one of those to FOOL YOU! You expect some captain to make a gross mistake over some psycho analysis you made for a generality of Tevs? You WON'T BE ABLE TO, because I've succeeded in substituting everyone FOR ANDROID PERFECT MACHIIIIIINES"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 28, 2014, 04:58:53 am
At some point, you'll just have to willingly admit the Fedayeen spotted a weaker spot (not a WEAK spot, a WEAKER spot) in Steele's structure and went full in on that joint until it cracked. And it worked, and it wasn't Steele's fault. Or if it was Steele's fault, it's just because he is not a god, he's just a human.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on January 28, 2014, 05:37:10 am
You'll not get any complaints from me about having characters with weaknesses - as you say, no one is perfect and weaknesses make the characters believable :)  And I accept that Steele is human - that's good.  But he doesn't have to be a human I sympathise with, understand, or like and that's where my picking at him is coming from.  I can identify with Lopez, I can't identify with Steele. I hate his style of command and the inhumanity in his decision making (ditto for the Fedayeen obviously). The ends-justifies-the-means approach always rubs me up the wrong way and I guess it bothers me somewhat when it's being (maybe?) portrayed as the best solution on both sides.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 28, 2014, 06:00:15 am
I like it. Or at least I like the tension that brings into play. Either you keep your humanity and you end up losing or you lose your humanity so that humanity wins. Except that wars are not humane ever, and the best players are the ruthless tacticians who are able to see everything as an asset towards victory.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 28, 2014, 08:27:51 am
You'll not get any complaints from me about having characters with weaknesses - as you say, no one is perfect and weaknesses make the characters believable :)  And I accept that Steele is human - that's good.  But he doesn't have to be a human I sympathise with, understand, or like and that's where my picking at him is coming from.  I can identify with Lopez, I can't identify with Steele. I hate his style of command and the inhumanity in his decision making (ditto for the Fedayeen obviously). The ends-justifies-the-means approach always rubs me up the wrong way and I guess it bothers me somewhat when it's being (maybe?) portrayed as the best solution on both sides.

I like it. Or at least I like the tension that brings into play. Either you keep your humanity and you end up losing or you lose your humanity so that humanity wins. Except that wars are not humane ever, and the best players are the ruthless tacticians who are able to see everything as an asset towards victory.

As I'm sure you've heard, Calder shares your concerns. (http://blueplanet.fsmods.net/voicepreviews/soliloquy.ogg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on January 28, 2014, 09:10:42 am
He's clearly oh so drunk in there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 28, 2014, 11:09:33 am
I like that voice :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on January 28, 2014, 01:00:43 pm
I like that "dick around" is now canon dialogue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 28, 2014, 01:33:02 pm
There are some nice voices to be heard :D
Steele and Lopez...sweet^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 28, 2014, 08:10:50 pm
I like that "dick around" is now canon dialogue.
That was my favourite part of that casting. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 29, 2014, 03:43:42 am
I'm sure that has been explaine before, but how does crashjumping works?
Flash the jumpdrive and end up being pulled out of subspace by a grav-source? If so, would that mean in a system with a sun but not stellar bodies, ships would end up at said sun?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on January 29, 2014, 04:06:53 am
Crash jumps are jumps where the jumping ship engages its drives without having fully calculated the entire jump. The risk here is that you may run into a gravity well and get pulled out on a vector that may be fatal; this happened to the Indus and could have happened to the Carthage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on January 29, 2014, 04:17:16 pm
I've also always gotten the impression that a crash jump is extremely hard on the ship, seeing as how it tends to knock out reactors and other systems... throwing the ship into subspace as hard and fast as possible without spooling  up properly. Akin, perhaps, to starting up your car and flooring it immediately, rather than giving it a chance to warm up and accelerating at a reasonable pace.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 29, 2014, 04:25:29 pm
I get the impression that it means your drive capacitors haven't recharged completely, so getting enough power to jump requires a dramatic increase in reactor output, which can overload power conduits and potentially even wreck the reactor itself.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 29, 2014, 05:08:18 pm
I get the impression that it means your drive capacitors haven't recharged completely, so getting enough power to jump requires a dramatic increase in reactor output, which can overload power conduits and potentially even wreck the reactor itself.
Crash jumps are jumps where the jumping ship engages its drives without having fully calculated the entire jump. The risk here is that you may run into a gravity well and get pulled out on a vector that may be fatal; this happened to the Indus and could have happened to the Carthage.
I'm pretty sure a "crash jump" refers to both of these things, even though they're technically two separate types of jumps.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 29, 2014, 05:16:32 pm
Yeah, I think it's easiest to think of as 'a jump that the ship is not fully prepared to make', with a diverse and dangerous array of hazards.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aardwolf on January 30, 2014, 02:04:47 pm
Today I learned: "Cassandra" is a Greek mythology thing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nikogori on February 11, 2014, 09:38:56 am
What was going on when Hydura station reported these? :confused:

"Hydura Station reports vampires, six by twenty. Knives out, spades out...vampires, five by twenty, ten seconds...foaming...vampires, five seconds. This is Hydura Station, signing off -"

I think there were incoming missiles, but I cannot find out the meanings of “six by twenty. Knives out, spades out”.

Sorry for the stupid question, I've been studying English for years and yet I'm still a learner...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 11, 2014, 10:12:35 am
They were getting nuked to hell by swarms of TEV warheads at the end of "Darkest Hour."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 11, 2014, 10:32:50 am
Don't worry about your English skills - it's all military brevity code, and you're not meant to understand it so much as get a mood from it. Hydura's being attacked by SSMs and trying to defend itself, but failing.

It's a tribute to an obscure prose passage I like a lot, from the sequence in Greg Bear's Eon when a crew in orbit are listening to radio transmissions from US Navy warships as World War III breaks out:

Quote
A man's voice, sounding almost mechanical after the processing of the signal, said, "One K that is Kill Seven, One K that is Kill Seven, have smoked the circle; repeat, have smoked the circle. Vampires, fourteen count, range fifty klicks, source Turgenev small platform. Repeat, fourteen vampires. Six down. Sweep two commencing. Smoking circle, up with directed fry, nine down, up with knives, eleven down. Three vampires, twenty-klicks. Priests out. Priests and vampires engage. Advising salamander crews. Starfish launched. Sea Dragons alerted. Two vampires, six klicks. Sweep three commencing. Foaming now. Short eyes out, blades out, Guardians out, knives inboard."

A pause. "Two vampires, three klicks." Another pause, then, softly, "Good-bye, Shirley."

The voice seems almost machinelike until the final puncture of humanity, reciting a calmly coded series of defensive measures that obscure the desperation and horror of what's happening.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 11, 2014, 10:47:11 am
Reading this makes it fell more intense.
That "Good-bye, Shirley" is...somehow more suited...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on February 11, 2014, 11:10:19 am
That's an awesome quote by all standards.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 11, 2014, 03:15:36 pm
What are knives and spades?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on February 11, 2014, 04:14:51 pm
As I interpreted it:

Hydura Station reports vampires, six by twenty: SSM alert, 120 inbound.
Knives out, spades out...vampires, five by twenty, ten seconds: Point defense and countermeasures activate, destroy 20 SSMs. Ten seconds to impact.
...foaming...: Active armor. Failing that, a generic curse.
vampires, five seconds. This is Hydura Station, signing off -: Kabloom.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nikogori on February 11, 2014, 09:56:23 pm
Thank you for the answer. :)

I've never read Eon, however, Greg Bear is well known author among Japanese sci-fi fans. Maybe I can find a copy of the book at city library.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/4150107262

I love the story of the Blue Planet. It is not easy for me to understand though. Somehow it reminds me of Susumu Hirasawa's song called Ride the Blue Limbo.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on February 12, 2014, 01:45:01 am
As I interpreted it:

Hydura Station reports vampires, six by twenty: SSM alert, 120 inbound.
Knives out, spades out...vampires, five by twenty, ten seconds: Point defense and countermeasures activate, destroy 20 SSMs. Ten seconds to impact.
...foaming...: Active armor. Failing that, a generic curse.
vampires, five seconds. This is Hydura Station, signing off -: Kabloom.

Smoke is flare countermeasures I'm pretty sure, I have no idea about spades or knives.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scani on February 14, 2014, 10:26:23 am
Hi everyone.
I've finally found some time to return to FreeSpace and play a long anticipated act 3 of WIH.

But before I start I have few questions:
1. Does it work with mediavps 2014, or should I download older version?
2. I can see that the newest nightly build has higher revision number than recomended BP build, and all recent updates were to match trunk revisions. Does WIH work with current nightly builds?
3. I can see a link to the patch in The Blue Planet build repository topic (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83318.0). Do I need it when I download the most recent build?

I can't wait to play this game, but since I was absent from Freespace world for quite a while, I also want to experience it with all bells and whistles. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 14, 2014, 10:28:00 am
You're safest with MediaVPs_3612. It might work with 2014, but we're not totally sure yet (nobody has performed a rigorous run through to check).

You must use the most recent BP build if you are NOT using the compatibility pack. You can use the most recent nightly build if you ARE USING the compatibility pack.

The patch file is for coders, don't worry about it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scani on February 14, 2014, 10:36:01 am
Thanks a lot :)

I assume that compatibility pack removes some features from BP, so it's better to use BP build for full experience, right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 14, 2014, 10:37:11 am
The compatibility pack turns off some experimental deferred lighting features that come with a significant performance cost (for me, at least). I don't think they're a vital part of the experience, but it's your call.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on February 16, 2014, 07:20:25 pm
I just played through Universal Truth after many months and I came across something that may not have much significance, but I'm curious to know anyway: will we find out how the GTVA discovered the Vishnans in the last two acts of WiH?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on February 16, 2014, 08:42:45 pm
We know how the GTVA discovered the Vishnans.  It happened in AoA.  You were there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 16, 2014, 09:04:00 pm
But MORPHEUS predated the events of AoA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on February 16, 2014, 10:18:29 pm
We know how the GTVA discovered the Vishnans.  It happened in AoA.  You were there.

That was Bei and the 14th Battlegroup. The higher ranked people like Admiral Bei must have been aware that Vishnans existed long before they saw them in AoA.

Spoiler:
Isn't this one (if not the only) reason why the GTVA is fighting the UEF? We find out that the Elders have been in contact with the Vishnans for many years, and that they are, along with Bei, "instruments" of the Vishnans. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on February 16, 2014, 10:54:38 pm
Yeah, GTVA command knew about the Vishnans beforehand. Same as with the GTA knowing about the Shivans before the Great War.
They probably ventured to the Vishnaland portal in the main 'V'erse, found them, classified all of the details about the encounter and drew the first Morpheus drafts once they realized what they were dealing with. Or something else. :P

Point is, they knew about the Vishnans already.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 17, 2014, 07:28:59 am
Was the Uhlan in any way inspired by the human fighters from Space: Above and Beyond?
If I remember correctly, the Zod standard fighter in FS1 was inspired by the Chig fighter.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 17, 2014, 07:52:37 am
But MORPHEUS predated the events of AoA.

I can believe that it was enacted as a contingency for Shivan interference through Nagari (which the GTVA would have probably known of from Bosch and ETAK, combined with whatever intelligence from the Great War was left on the other side of the node). They then began suspecting foreign Nagari influence when preliminary intelligence from Sol came through, then when the 14th came back it became clear that this was coming from an entirely new faction.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nyarly on February 26, 2014, 04:56:04 pm
So yeah, I noticed fairly early in WiH that one of the (many) names on the UEF MIA/KIA rolls was one Tyra "Crash" Somethingblahblah.

Hahahaha!

IS THAT A BATTLETECH REFERENCE, BATTUTA?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 26, 2014, 04:58:53 pm
Holy ****, I can't believe anybody caught that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: yuezhi on February 27, 2014, 08:35:22 pm
Seeing is believing ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Janos on March 03, 2014, 04:55:39 pm
Dawn War? Plans that are billions of years old? Preservation and destruction as a deal and a pact?

I wonder what kind of revelations will wait for us in the deepest, coldest space.

Hopefully not brane-jumping shadows, garden bubble nanobots or random reset-buttons that are introduced in the last mission :v
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 03, 2014, 05:00:37 pm
Dawn War? Plans that are billions of years old? Preservation and destruction as a deal?

I wonder what kind of revelations will wait for us in the deepest, coldest space

I really struggled with that ****ing name so people wouldn't be like 'oh it's Revelation Space' so I swapped to 'Morning War' and then that was in Mass Effect and I think I tried something else but the Xeelee books had used it so I said '**** it' and now it's a TRIBUTE

The overall direction of things isn't super Revelation Space, though, and everything went ****ty after Redemption Ark anyway. You do point out some interesting similarities but I think they're more cases of convergence or consonance.

e: haha exactly
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 04, 2014, 06:48:42 am
I've not played act three... Yet. But wondered who the first uef. Gtva contact was between...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Janos on March 04, 2014, 10:52:56 am
Dawn War? Plans that are billions of years old? Preservation and destruction as a deal?

I wonder what kind of revelations will wait for us in the deepest, coldest space

I really struggled with that ****ing name so people wouldn't be like 'oh it's Revelation Space' so I swapped to 'Morning War' and then that was in Mass Effect and I think I tried something else but the Xeelee books had used it so I said '**** it' and now it's a TRIBUTE

The overall direction of things isn't super Revelation Space, though, and everything went ****ty after Redemption Ark anyway. You do point out some interesting similarities but I think they're more cases of convergence or consonance.

Feel no shame! It's fictional sci-fi opera with ships flying in nonrelativistic speeds and distances and blasting each other with magical photon beam cannons. A little namedrop here or there is only honest.

But hey! Finally I can pour some bad metacritique into a long and incoherent post which makes no sense whatsoever, thank you!

The overall hyperplot of Revelation Space series isn't really that interesting or good. The books excel in depicting interstellar travel and political plotting in transhuman socities, but when it comes to the bigger plot it all fells apart, because Reynolds really can't limit himself. But that's irrelevant. What's more interesting, though, is that several themes of Revelation Space are quite commonly encountered throughout sci-fi media. And many of those themes are encountered in Blue Planet as well. Actually those themes are encountered in almost every FS installation due to the nature of the original game. No, wait, those themes are encountered in most sci-fi that goes into the universum-wide scale. Aagh. That's not an accusation, they are generally standard pieces of storytelling in sci-fi opera toolbox. They form the greatest scifi cliche of all time - the monomyth of apocalypse. Our universal nightmare - we run to the stars and are swatted like flies for an unknown purpose. "Oh no", we scream, "our wonderful identities! Our ability to make moral choices! Please, Mister or Miss Author of Intergalactic Survival Tale that spans billions of years, give us an impression that our plucky individualism really matters!" And the author relents, and our human nature leads us to conquer the Shivans Reapers Wolves Tyranids Zerg Elders Cthulhu Slavers Liir Sith Old Gods Angels WHATEVER and maybe someone makes a heroic sacrifice.

Look at this:
- "The timescales in conflicts are so huge as to be inperceivable to humans"
- "The destroyers from beyond the stars interested in preserving life in the long run which means sacrifices in the short run"
- "The deals are ancient and arcane and your monkey brains wouldn't understand, except when they would, because here it is, OK well honestly it's just near-religious explanation of thing A or B or a word salad, but really SUPER IMPORTANT that's why you must die"
Spoiler:
you conquer this with power of love, harmony or disco music
- "Despite the age the technological development of the [insert ancient power here] has been surprisingly stagnant compared to humans"
- "Things are not the way you think they are"
- TRANSCEND TO THE ASTRAL PLANE *vangelis*
- The Ascendance of the Prophet
- "There is always a choice" seems to be a natural part of our literary psyche; the ability to make a choice - good or bad - is imperative to most scifi narratives. In nearly every apocalyptic scenario the humanity is offered some kind of choice, which generally has unpleasant short-tems effects and unknown long-term effects.
- The everpresent series of conspiracies: there is a motivator beyond whatever we discover. Pure chaos or existence without any kind of deeper meaning would be severely limitating to apocalyptic sci-fi. Some day we will encounter the prime mover of apocalyptic scifi, and then the world will end.
Spoiler:
it's love, it will conquer

I could throw that pack into most of current sci-fi and a large amount of it would stick. And I like it, it's dramatic and gives a great backdrop for shooting people with plasma beams. But it's also easy to make fun of and in larger works it becomes highly predictable, putting the author's skills to a test.

Quote
e: haha exactly

it was a bad book.

really bad.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 04, 2014, 11:22:37 am
This is all correct analysis. I think with BP we are trying to walk a very narrow tightrope between our cake and eating it (you can tell I'm a Good Writer), in particular with the layers of conspiracy and the role of the human agent.

I think it's satisfying to find intentionality and design behind everything. Chance and chaos are huge players in the Lacanian Real Hangout Zone and it's sometimes interesting to find ways to incorporate them into fiction, but with BP we very intentionally set out to make a big chess game full of ominously titled secret orders and hidden cabals that live in wild moral territory. It's something I have a weakness for as a writer but I also think it's something readers can grab onto and engage with: it's fun to say 'ah, now I understand why X did Y, so I can predict that George RR Martin will never finish the next book' or whatever

The question of the human agent and choice is a big one in the narrative. That one I think we're much more interested in subverting and exploring. Games are fun when your decisions matter and stories are fun when the characters seem to have meaningful choices, but at the same time, BP's characters (in act 3 in particular) have started to tug at the threads of the space opera archetype.

Bei gets to sacrifice his humanity to save the people he loves in a very archetypical story. Then a crazy lady shows up to yell at him about how he was compromised and manipulated by ~~SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED~~ aliens who targeted his very direct moral makeup.

Laporte gets a shadowy companion who speaks in pseudomystic portents. But her visions are also full of reminders that this mystical strain is just human interpretation of some broader tactical reality. And ultimately she and her supporting cast do something pretty unusual for a story about prophecy and awful choice ordained by the gods: they figure out how to use their technological tools to attack the prophecy and exploit its underpinnings so they can learn more. They've started to behave proactively - and this occurs in a mission that (of course) is full of metanarrative.

But it's no coincidence IN TURN that this is only enabled by adopting the technology and the very modes of thought used by the Shivans. Just as FreeSpace 2's Shivans devoured and unmade the story of FreeSpace 1, revealing themselves to be more alien and dangerous than we expected, the Blue Planet Shivans have started to destroy the archetypical story we saw in AoA. They're not technologically stagnant: they have a wholly separate mode of consciousness and development, designed to confound computational foresight. The story doesn't shy away from the fact that in the long run, the Shivans are invincible.

And the Vishnans, similarly, have such enormous cognitive firepower that it's clearly unrealistic for our human characters to straight up outwit or trick them. Their agency is DEEPLY confined and that's something the story has to wrestle with too. Bei and Laporte both face the possibility that they are basically payloads, and that the narratives they're being fed are tailored to them with inscrutable precision.

But the fact that our universe is dominated by these vast mechanisms doesn't mean there's no space between the gears. I don't want to talk about exactly where that space comes from, but I think it is and will be satisfying and at least modestly believable.

On good days I honestly believe that unlike Mass Effect or (even) Revelation Space, we have a shot at pulling off an arc that's both a satisfying primary monomyth narrative with love and triumph and loss and respectful of the sober realities of the insanely powerful alien intelligences at play. More than anything else, we don't want to compromise the weird alien power of the Shivans, and we want to make sure the Vishnans - who started out too white hat and relatable - stay equally chilling and vast.

I guess what I'm promising here is that we are aware of the cliches and even though we know they are useful we want to continue interrogating and challenging them. Except for the stuff that'll be straight up booming music monomyth narrative. We like that too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Janos on March 04, 2014, 02:15:23 pm
I like your style.
This is all correct analysis. I think with BP we are trying to walk a very narrow tightrope between our cake and eating it (you can tell I'm a Good Writer), in particular with the layers of conspiracy and the role of the human agent.

I think it's satisfying to find intentionality and design behind everything. Chance and chaos are huge players in the Lacanian Real Hangout Zone and it's sometimes interesting to find ways to incorporate them into fiction, but with BP we very intentionally set out to make a big chess game full of ominously titled secret orders and hidden cabals that live in wild moral territory. It's something I have a weakness for as a writer but I also think it's something readers can grab onto and engage with: it's fun to say 'ah, now I understand why X did Y, so I can predict that George RR Martin will never finish the next book' or whatever

When you manage to throw MJ12 there I am truly impressed. Also I agree with your analysis re: George RR Martin

Quote
The question of the human agent and choice is a big one in the narrative. That one I think we're much more interested in subverting and exploring. Games are fun when your decisions matter and stories are fun when the characters seem to have meaningful choices, but at the same time, BP's characters (in act 3 in particular) have started to tug at the threads of the space opera archetype.

Bei gets to sacrifice his humanity to save the people he loves in a very archetypical story. Then a crazy lady shows up to yell at him about how he was compromised and manipulated by ~~SUFFICIENTLY ADVANCED~~ aliens who targeted his very direct moral makeup.

Laporte is bat**** insane. I like the way how the team hints at Laporte's plot experiences being ultimately irrelevant, since she is a tabula rasa and only an avatar of something else. We The Spectator is a horrendous killing machine and plot itself exists to give us more chances to kill stuff.

Quote
Laporte gets a shadowy companion who speaks in pseudomystic portents. But her visions are also full of reminders that this mystical strain is just human interpretation of some broader tactical reality. And ultimately she and her supporting cast do something pretty unusual for a story about prophecy and awful choice ordained by the gods: they figure out how to use their technological tools to attack the prophecy and exploit its underpinnings so they can learn more. They've started to behave proactively - and this occurs in a mission that (of course) is full of metanarrative.

But it's no coincidence IN TURN that this is only enabled by adopting the technology and the very modes of thought used by the Shivans. Just as FreeSpace 2's Shivans devoured and unmade the story of FreeSpace 1, revealing themselves to be more alien and dangerous than we expected, the Blue Planet Shivans have started to destroy the archetypical story we saw in AoA. They're not technologically stagnant: they have a wholly separate mode of consciousness and development, designed to confound computational foresight. The story doesn't shy away from the fact that in the long run, the Shivans are invincible.

I found this plot point interesting and well made. Suboptimality, random chance and long timescales are essential concepts in evolutionary theory and, as such, at least superficially more attributable to creation of increasingly complex systems. To yield these as a method of destruction in a narrative that has the definite metaphysical holistic undercurrent to it was fresh.

Quote
And the Vishnans, similarly, have such enormous cognitive firepower that it's clearly unrealistic for our human characters to straight up outwit or trick them. Their agency is DEEPLY confined and that's something the story has to wrestle with too. Bei and Laporte both face the possibility that they are basically payloads, and that the narratives they're being fed are tailored to them with inscrutable precision.

The Vishnans of WiH are much better than Vishnans in AoA, mostly because the narrator is different. In AoA they were dangerously close to the antishivan, which made their presence feel almost contrived. And then there is the entire narrative of the trimurti. If you take it at face value that is all there is, eternally, and nothing else, which is sometimes a difficult position in a game where the ultimate solution is to shoot **** until it explodes. Plotwise introducing a particle and antiparticle is not always a wise choice, unless you wish to point at the emptiness after the cataclysm.

Quote
But the fact that our universe is dominated by these vast mechanisms doesn't mean there's no space between the gears. I don't want to talk about exactly where that space comes from, but I think it is and will be satisfying and at least modestly believable.

On good days I honestly believe that unlike Mass Effect or (even) Revelation Space, we have a shot at pulling off an arc that's both a satisfying primary monomyth narrative with love and triumph and loss and respectful of the sober realities of the insanely powerful alien intelligences at play. More than anything else, we don't want to compromise the weird alien power of the Shivans, and we want to make sure the Vishnans - who started out too white hat and relatable - stay equally chilling and vast.

What do you believe in bad days?

Quote
I guess what I'm promising here is that we are aware of the cliches and even though we know they are useful we want to continue interrogating and challenging them. Except for the stuff that'll be straight up booming music monomyth narrative. We like that too.
Good to hear!

And by the way, I really liked WiH. Great missions, nice variety and good overall mood. It wiped the floor with AoA. The plot goes forwards well and is tight enough and the main characters have some flesh around their bones. It definitely suffers from the lack of voice acting and I feel that the interlude CASSANDRA missions could be somewhat tighter or even more psychedelic. They seem too normal; the horror sequences also have the jump scare factor pretty high. But nevertheless it was great fun, which ultimately is all that matters to me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on March 04, 2014, 02:24:04 pm
As far as the Dreamscape is concerned, it would seem reasonable to be able to fly with reverse thrust, glide, and a whole heap of speed. Make cruising around while talking to people a little more interesting, and reduce some of the transit time between conversations.  :nod:

Don't think it needs any psychedelicness though, it's already pretty trippy conceptually (And has awesome music)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on March 04, 2014, 07:42:59 pm
I feel that the interlude CASSANDRA missions could be somewhat tighter or even more psychedelic
The next release is apparently going to do a lot more with the dreamscape.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on March 04, 2014, 09:21:05 pm
Really enjoyed reading this analysis.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Piemanlives on March 04, 2014, 09:39:26 pm
I've not played act three... Yet. But wondered who the first uef. Gtva contact was between...

If you've played AoA then you should know that answer, if not you should probably go and do that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 05, 2014, 10:10:50 am
I voiced a certain part and only realised the other day that unless it was retconned, my part was the one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Wobble73 on March 05, 2014, 10:50:23 am
Let me guess Dekker, you were the Cockney sounding fellow. LOL
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Piemanlives on March 05, 2014, 09:03:48 pm
Might have I misread your comment originally dekker?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on March 06, 2014, 01:27:23 am
Yeah, I'm pretty sure Orestes Control has played AoA, I think he was talking about act 3.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Piemanlives on March 08, 2014, 01:30:41 am

But wondered who the first uef. Gtva contact was between...

I am now confused by this part of this statement.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on March 08, 2014, 04:44:10 pm
unless it was retconned

Mayhaps clarity could be defined by this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Piemanlives on March 09, 2014, 02:30:29 pm
Possibly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leeko on March 10, 2014, 12:19:49 pm
IS THAT A BATTLETECH REFERENCE, BATTUTA?

Because Tyra Miraborg crashed her aerofighter into the bridge of the Dire Wolf...

Batutta, you are officially The Coolest, and I am ashamed I never caught that

ed: er and sorry for the necroquote but yanno this kind of thing happens when you lurk like I do
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on March 14, 2014, 03:50:00 am
I just finished BP WiH up to it's current point of completion.

Two notes that I should mention:
Dreamscape is an interesting way of handling things, but it's a bit... inconvenient.
Some characters in the dreamscape kept talking about as if I had annihilated a certain cell (Burned them all), whilst I am quite sure that I only annihilated anythign that was shooting at me, and performed the boarding operation.
I did first annihilate the entire colony, but I thought that that was a bit egrious (and too easy), so I restarted the mission.

Not sure if bug or intentional design.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on March 14, 2014, 04:52:09 am
surely a bug. they do change their talking points depending on how you managed the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on March 14, 2014, 06:06:01 am
Hmm. Yeah, I got the B and B+ dialogues, whilst I should have gotten the A dialogues. Seems like the original outcame came trough, rather then the outcome I got when I immeaditily restarted the mission.

Would a full campaign restart help? I have a feeling this will affect later acts.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on March 14, 2014, 07:01:01 am
I'm not sure, I don't think I've ever had the didn't-burn-everyone dialogue, despite me not burning everyone most of the time. I'd wait until the next BP release before restarting, iirc there's a bunch of other bugs they had to fix.

Maybe a BP team member could advise you better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 14, 2014, 09:47:42 am
I bet the problem is that we're idiots and didn't implement those features right. It's a lot harder to test persistence stuff, since it doesn't work in the techroom and has to be done in campaign mode.

Still, I'm not sure why it wouldn't work...I'd have to look at the logic.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on March 14, 2014, 10:29:33 am
Aside from that: The campaign was great fun! Act 1 and 2 were the most fun I've had in a campaign since playing Operation: Saviour (the restored edition, haven't played the original). The missions were well crafted, and it is good to see a very heavily story driven campaign that does not punch above it's weight and strikes a good balance between story and gameplay.
What I disliked is the lack of player agency - the missions were written with a set outcome in mind, and averting this set outcome is often impossible (with the exception of act 1's final mission). This becomes rather obvious in some places
Spoiler:
such as the mission where you first try to annihilate the GTD carthage
which is a shame, although the story demands it, I would prefer if things in the campaign that are blocked from happening (Such as disarming certain warships) would instead be made impossible trough means other then immunisation.

On to Act 3. The dreamscape dialogues took a bit of getting used to. Very interesting, but I feel the travelling around between ships and such felt rather... strange, and... uncanny. Hard to put my finger on, but I'd rather would have seen the dialogues be retrieved trough the fiction viewer or some other means. I heard something about FS2 having FPS capabilities nowadays?
It's not that it is bad, or anything, just... average-ish.

This stands in stark contrast with the missions, which were extremely good. I played the campaign on hard, and I found the missions to be very challenging in more ways then just dogfighting, which is a plus. The final assault on the GT Spoiler as well as the assault on the Geae base were fun missions were one has to keep one's head cool under fire, which is always a plus. If these sort missions would be conducted whilst in a normal fighter, that would double the fun for me :D.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 14, 2014, 10:40:32 am
On to Act 3. The dreamscape dialogues took a bit of getting used to. Very interesting, but I feel the travelling around between ships and such felt rather... strange, and... uncanny. Hard to put my finger on, but I'd rather would have seen the dialogues be retrieved trough the fiction viewer or some other means. I heard something about FS2 having FPS capabilities nowadays?
It's not that it is bad, or anything, just... average-ish.

FS2 does not have FPS capabilities, and is unlikely to ever have them. The problem with using the fiction viewer is that it would be a long text dump in a mod already laden with long text dumps; We chose to use the dreamscape to allow at least a bit of interactivity. There's also an issue with the fiction viewer currently not being able to display dynamically changing text in the way the debriefing screens can; Tailoring the texts to the user's actions would be rather cumbersome.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on March 14, 2014, 12:27:42 pm
Achieving something like TRAUMA gameplay in FS2 would be great !
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 14, 2014, 04:20:51 pm
We generally disregard requests to make things more perfect because our goal is 'do interesting things' instead of 'attempt and fail to do perfect things'. Our philosophy is implementation and iteration, not aspiration and then project failure. So, for instance, when our request to get conditional stage support in the fiction viewer never came through, we worked around the feature. When people ask for the ability to walk around the Masyaf and talk to people, well...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on March 14, 2014, 04:55:54 pm
Don't say it wouldn't be interesting :P.

I think I would have liked the dreamscape a lot more if the ships were placed closer together or if I was travelling in a faster ship, though. It's mainly the travelling in between actors which made it ... less-then-perfect for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 14, 2014, 05:53:12 pm
That's useful feedback that we can consider. The dreamscape is getting a big iteration pass for the Director's Cut which may include some slight changes to movement mechanics.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nikogori on March 17, 2014, 08:02:17 am
I found a small inconsistency in Mission 7: My Brother, My enemy. Navaja Beta 1's head changes during the mission.

Quote
$Name: ds4 - reinforcements!
$Team: -1
$MessageNew:  XSTR("Beta wing is in! Hang on a little longer, Laporte! Pick your targets, open racks, and engage!", -1)
$end_multi_text
+AVI Name: Head-TP1
+Wave Name: emptymsg.ogg

$Name: ds5 - Beta - we won
$Team: -1
$MessageNew:  XSTR("All right! Not an awful sendoff for the Navajas...we showed them, didn't we? Shot down their very best!", -1)
$end_multi_text
+AVI Name: Head-TP5
+Wave Name: emptymsg.ogg
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aquila on March 19, 2014, 02:34:41 pm
I'm not great with forums, and usually don't participate much in them. Additionally to this, I felt what I have to say now doesn't quite justify the opening of a new thread. But to those who had the original idea to blue planet, to those who worked their ass of to accomplish its success, to those who made it what it is now and especially to the mind that thought putting Ubuntu in there was a good idea:
Thank you.
I've wrote my (admittedly crude) research paper on Ubuntu, and whether or not it'd be applicable to today's society. And though I probably screwed up at one point or another and went to blue-eyed into it, it turned out to be a win for me.
Thanks to Blue Planet (re-)introducing me to the idea of Ubuntu, I could pave my way to the upcoming exams and a huge step further to graduation. I never even would've thought about it, wouldn't have known about its concept (which I personally find pretty interesting) and probably would've wrote about something entirely else and would've ****ed it up (again *cough*). So just... thank you.

And also thanks for the probably best campaign I've ever played ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 19, 2014, 02:43:10 pm
Cool! Are you dealing with Ubuntu-as-BP-philosophy, or the real Ubuntu from Africa? (They are not unrelated, but.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aquila on March 19, 2014, 02:45:26 pm
'twas the real one from africa (as much as I understood it, anyway). But the one from BP brought me there. Would've never gotten there from Linux *shifty eyes*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on March 19, 2014, 04:51:35 pm
Spoiler:
It seems weird that the UEF would have acces to a shivan but the GTVA did not, whilst the top class shivan research happened at the GTVI. Both the NTF and the GTVA would have more acces to shivan specimens to utilize, I would think.
.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 19, 2014, 05:07:51 pm
The GTA's primary scientific infrastructure was (canonically, as per FS1) in Sol, and this is where they shipped their vital tasks.

Moreover, you're assuming the GTVA didn't have any access to Shivan specimens, which is not necessarily supportable by the available information.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on March 19, 2014, 05:22:24 pm
Spoiler:
It seems weird that the UEF would have acces to a shivan but the GTVA did not, whilst the top class shivan research happened at the GTVI. Both the NTF and the GTVA would have more acces to shivan specimens to utilize, I would think.
.
Spoiler:
I'm sure they do--you don't have a need-to-know what happened the captured Mara's previous pilots--but the Great War-era specimens were probably lost in the GTI rebellion and the research was subsequently sealed by the GTA. That was the entire point of the NTF rebellion; Bosch reopened the research on the sly, crafted ETAK, raided Ancient sites to find a way to find some new Shivans and became Ken.

The UEF never had any such roadblocks, while having a conveniently braindead Shivan, a wealth of resources and manpower and infrastructure to study it, guidance from an alien intelligence, and a state-supported GTI-analogue specifically for this kind of unethical research. The result is CASSANDRA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leeko on March 28, 2014, 04:52:03 pm
Was Kovacs an intentional reference to Watchmen (http://watchmen.wikia.com/wiki/Walter_Kovacs)?
And now that I know Battuta has apparently read BattleTech novels, is Falconer another one of those (http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Joanna)?

Shots in the dark but both of those thoughts made me grin. In my mind's eye (ear?) I read Kovacs in the voice of pre-breakdown Rorschach.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on March 28, 2014, 05:02:06 pm
The character names are references, yes, but not to those works. They're taken from Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovacs novels.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 28, 2014, 05:30:07 pm
I believe you can get the full names of most of another Fedayeen wing if you pay close attention too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Janos on April 01, 2014, 04:18:22 pm
The character names are references, yes, but not to those works. They're taken from Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovacs novels.

GOD DAMMIT I knew the name Kovacs rang a bell but... uhhhhh :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Veers on April 10, 2014, 08:29:47 am
Post Meridian briefing.

Slide 2. Refers to Severanti as 'Her'
Slide 6. Refers to Severanti as 'Him'

I've never noticed that before, despite reading it a million times before. Just went and clicked in my head then. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 10, 2014, 09:45:46 am
'Her' refers to the Meridian.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mikes on April 19, 2014, 12:13:17 pm
I hate Blue Planet ...

... every time I play another release I am absolutely blown away by the writing quality and the gameplay both ...  then it's over too soon and all other games or mods suddenly seem lackluster.

Anyone with similar problems know a remedy ? :P


(Finally got around to finishing Act 3 after getting a new flightstick ... and wow, well done. Well done. That mission with the Carthage .... damn ;) )

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 19, 2014, 12:20:24 pm
I believe you can get the full names of most of another Fedayeen wing if you pay close attention too.

I don't remember if this is actually true so somebody should go find out for me! The key will be Awheiringa's handler.

I hate Blue Planet ...

... every time I play another release I am absolutely blown away by the writing quality and the gameplay both ...  then it's over too soon and all other games or mods suddenly seem lackluster.

Anyone with similar problems know a remedy ? :P


(Finally got around to finishing Act 3 after getting a new flightstick ... and wow, well done. Well done. That mission with the Carthage .... damn ;) )

Thank you! Glad you enjoyed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on April 19, 2014, 06:18:25 pm
Aye must second Mikes; the written elements are superb both in planning and execution alike (you can tell there are serious writers on the team). What especially impresses me is how balanced you guys manage to keep the reasons for the war and the actions in it; even with my shameless fanboy-ness I read stuff like that GTVA Ubuntu FAQ (http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/ubuntufaq.html) and the invasion suddenly seems more than justified (hell, even made me question whether UEF victory would actually be a good thing :nervous:). You've managed to get it so there's no real 'right side'; no faction (except maybe the Gef, but meh :lol:) is really in the wrong (even Steele is ultimately doing what he thinks will minimize casualties on the whole) and at the same time no faction is really flawless (UEF blowing up their own civs because of 'Scorched Earth' policy, GTVA dumping BETAC, Fedayeen tactics, etc). IMO it's a truly tough thing to do well, but you guys have really nailed it in BP.

Then the icing on the cake of course is the high-end assets and gameplay to go with it. I'm a fan of 'smarts instead of brawn' in battle depictions (spirit drives, ECM, viruses, pop-treb etc) so I loved the complexities of the fights (can imagine many of them brought sleepless FREDing nights, especially 'Her Finest Hour'... how much coffee for that one? :lol:), and the ships your team make are works of art simple as that (I drool every time I see that new Draco in pics!). Hope you guys enjoy making this as much as we do playing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Torchwood on April 20, 2014, 01:43:46 pm
The Gefs have an ideology but on insane troll logic, but if the wars escalates and planets are ruined, comet-dwelling life might become all that is left for the people of Earth. I think that is the reason why the Buntus didn't systematically exterminate them all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 20, 2014, 02:33:52 pm
The Gefs have an ideology but on insane troll logic

The problem is that most of what is currently in the campaigns about the Gef is about Kostadin Cell (whose leadership has devolved into some kind of weird cult) ... There is only a brief glimpse in the mind of another group within the Gef subculture in Tenebra's dreamscape

Considering that there is an element of eugenics to (at least one faction of) the Gef they might just turn out to be just as questionable in their methods as the rest ...

But then again it was confirmed that there is at least one other Gef faction (Bloody March) which we have yet not seen...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: T-Man on April 20, 2014, 03:42:26 pm
The Gefs have an ideology but on insane troll logic
The problem is that most of what is currently in the campaigns about the Gef is about Kostadin Cell (whose leadership has devolved into some kind of weird cult) ... There is only a brief glimpse in the mind of another group within the Gef subculture in Tenebra's dreamscape
That's true actually; I forgot the Gef are quite fragmented, and that Kostadin are meant to be particularly crazy as you say as compared to other groups so maybe one's like Greenfly or Blood March are not as much (i recall the former are mentioned as being calmer; even the Fedayeen are willing to consider deals with them). Torch's idea is an interesting thought; always assumed the Elders just didn't want to kill if they could avoid it but that idea of wanting them to survive is plausible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 20, 2014, 03:55:44 pm
always assumed the Elders just didn't want to kill if they could avoid it but that idea of wanting them to survive is plausible.

So is the idea that there was no compelling reason to destroy them1, that the Elders' projections anticipated a point when the militaristic form of the momement would decline and die-off leading to a peaceful end of the conflict, or it was just strategically unfeasable to mount an offensive that could cripple the decentralized GEF's war-effort

EDIT:
1 - We have no data on how effective the Jovians were in keeping the GEF contained beyond Eris Base
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on April 20, 2014, 04:03:51 pm
Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.
Drat, I'll do that after posting :P

The Gefs have an ideology but on insane troll logic, but if the wars escalates and planets are ruined, comet-dwelling life might become all that is left for the people of Earth. I think that is the reason why the Buntus didn't systematically exterminate them all.
Actually, I find the GEFs to be one of the most interesting and intriguing group in Sol right now. The few glimpses we've had regarding their lifestyle and ideology suggests that their society(ies) is widely different from that of any other faction in the setting, except possibly the folks from the Sanctuary.

Think about what we know regarding the other factions.
The Federation as a whole relies on predictive analysis of its environment to drive its market economy. Aside from that, I'd say it's a safe bet that the day to day lives of Earth or Mars citizens aren't that different from our own. The Jovians are different story, as they have to face the rigors of their artificial habitats (assuming none of the Jovian moons got terraformed).

On the other side of the node, the Alliance faces similar challenges, but with added constraints, such having to manage a system on an interstellar level, rather than an interplanetary one. In addition, as far as we know, the GTVA doesn't have predictive models nearly as effective as the Federation's. Add to that the fact that the Shivan threat is far more real in your everyday Alliance citizen's mind than its Federation counterpart, and you've got a pretty grim society. I don't think the Alliance and Federation everyman lives that differently, but while one probably feels railroaded by simulations, s/he has constent reminders that their society is thriving, whereas the other has constent reminders that their society is preparing to face another apocalypse.
Sure, the Federation has a comparatively more dense warship population in Sol than in your average GTVA system, but they can afford those warships. The Alliance's economy (Terran side) isn't doing so well and yet they are still injecting massive funds into weapons and military ships design and construction.

The Vasudans are a bit of an unknown variable, but I am percieving them as having a mixture of Federation and Alliance Terran trait: thriving economy in the Alliance's grim context.

Let's skip over the Vishnan and Shivans themselves, and go over to the GEF. The Gaian Effort is a fragmented society, divided in a cluster of cells with differing goals and philosophies. They don't live in any sort of market-based economy - I am assuming that what ever trade they make between each other (and Federation elements) is driven diretcly by their mutual needs rather than abstract profit. They are not relying on any sort of predictive machinery. They've got virtually no ressources compared to the might of the Federation and Alliance, suggesting that they make the best possible use of what they have, recycling as much as they can.

Makes me wish we had more info regarding the various cells' ideologies & lifestyles.

Note: a lot of this is based on my personal speculations, so feel free to poke holes in it. Also, I'm not sure I'm making a lot of sense, I can be rather bad at organizing my thoughts :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on April 20, 2014, 05:16:34 pm
Perhaps I'm remembering incorrectly, but I recall seeing somewhere that the GEFs were intentionally left to their own devices (more or less) as a potential "last ditch survival" mechanism in the event of catastrophe, akin to the Sanctuary's purpose: a seed of humanity that may survive what would otherwise be the utter annihilation of the species.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Veers on April 20, 2014, 09:09:50 pm
There was a mention somewhere, if the UEF/GTVA fall than perhaps the GEFs would survive, therefore ensuring Humanity survives.

Was it Al Da'wa who mentioned it?, I just recall it in Act 3
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: 0rph3u5 on April 21, 2014, 06:32:11 am
Was it Al Da'wa who mentioned it?, I just recall it in Act 3

It's Al-Da’wa, after One Future in the Dreamscape
(I've to admit I forgot about that part)

EDIT: BTW is it just me or is putting Transhumanists in charge of preserving humanity in chase the rest of humanity decides to off one another a bit weird?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: redsniper on May 06, 2014, 05:34:03 pm
If the rest of humanity offs itself and the GEFs don't, then it won't be weird or not weird, it will just be what worked.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: 0rph3u5 on May 07, 2014, 05:23:22 am
What I was thinking about is related to the on-going discussion that "being human" is not limited to "being a member of the biological species homo sapiens sapiens" (there are even some positions claiming these are unrelated constructs on their own); depending on where you are standing on the issue that stance informs your stance on whetever or not the result of a Transhumanistic process (regardless of the method of said process) is still related to what is now understood as "human" and whetever or not it can be integrated into the context of humanity or has to be appricated as a destinct new entety that cannot claim humanity as trait.

As such it is clearly in the realm of the possible to think of Transhumanists being incapable of "preserving humanity".
Although it is also possible to think of Transhumanists being unable not to preserve a concept of humanity due to the fact that their thinking requires it as a sort of negative template.

I actually don't have a personal stance on the subject, as I have to do some further study into the matter before a conclusion can be made (currently I try to integrate ideas from the discipline of Disability Studies into the whole process; there is some good stuff to be had there, esspecially considerations about inclusiveness towards those who are not 'baseline').
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on May 08, 2014, 09:23:09 am
There's no "there there" in terms such as "humanity". It's such a fluid, limitless concept. Probably the most vague word ever invented.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: 0rph3u5 on May 08, 2014, 02:30:13 pm
There's no "there there" in terms such as "humanity". It's such a fluid, limitless concept. Probably the most vague word ever invented.

Both the history of the word and its meaning and the present day debate sadly disagree with you. We'd all like to think that such a cornerstone of Philosophy and Ethics is an open, inclusive term but sadly that is not the case; sometimes this is part of a methodological problem (e.g. in Structuralism), in other cases it is simply the approiation of the term to justify priviledge. The problem with the term might not be all that appearent in the present day, due to the fact that most of the world (at least on the surfacce) attempts to build more inclusive societies. As such the problem isn't as much as with an explicit definition of "being human" but terms that reference back to a certain idea what "being human" entails (e.g. "quality of life").

Just look at debates that happen around things pre-natal diagnostics, assisted suicide or even animal ethics...


EDIT:
But to bring it back to the BP:
Question to the BP Team: In what relation do the GEFs' think the "Liberated Cometary Man" (LCM) to the rest of humanity? Is the LCM part of a "greater humanity" (= the group of all humans and decendants of humanity) or does the LCM stand apart?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 13, 2014, 01:44:12 am
I don't think the GEF have a unified, singular answer to that question. That's the thing about them, they aren't a single faction, but a hodgepodge of factions with partially overlapping interests and goals.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IcemanFreespace on May 13, 2014, 08:15:51 pm
Hi, 2 missions to go and a huge post to follow when I finish the campaign. However, I have a quick question for now: in my last mission, the one with Carthage, in the debrief(last part of it) it says that most of the ships, 40+, were lost, etc. That isn't really true I'd say, I only used them to kill the engines of Carthage and ordered departure. But I still get that debrief, the same one I got when in a previous try I kept them in the battle until there really weren't more than a couple of survivors. So I guess the question is, is the debrief text always the same, is anything more than a couple of ships lost unacceptable, or more got killed than I think. Btw, all  the extra stuff was done by the time they got called in, and I only called in maybe 4 wings.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 13, 2014, 08:17:32 pm
That debrief isn't working properly. Unfortunately the problem is very hard to repro in a test environment, so I haven't pinned down a fix yet. But it's probably something really simple!

Don't worry about it, it's a bug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IcemanFreespace on May 14, 2014, 09:03:53 am
Thanks for that, thundering on then! I must say this topic has been a lot of fun as well along with playing the campaign, at page 100 atm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IcemanFreespace on May 14, 2014, 11:08:38 am
Campaign done.
First of all, big thanks and congratulations to all the people in the team. As many have said, this could easily be sold in shops. Objectively, BP is much stronger than FS2 retail. If you go past the obvious technical improvements owed to the mod being 10 years younger than the game, BP beats FS2 in terms of variety, depth, design and sophistication. I'll always gladly go back and play the original campaign, it will always be special, but those are facts.

In the first 100 pages of this topic, a lot has been said, so nothing new here but my personal thoughts are as follows:

-the official reasoning for starting the war is irrelevant. It doesn't need to go beyond:  It's our homeplanet too. We also, badly, need it, as far as economy and development go. Rollover for us? No? we're stronger. We're gonna take it. Ubuntu and other stuff are a good sell to the GTVA public, and also could sound genuinely scary.

-the other big point: Vishnans, Shivans, Capella etc. I just hope you're not making a web you can't untangle from. It will be quite a task to explaing everything and make it believable. I never liked those creepy Vishnans. Also, Shivans being simple enforcers with a clear agenda and without emotion either way makes a lot of sense. Otherwise, there's no explanation for them not destroying us, all of us, decades ago. So, I guess, so far so good. Reminds me a lot of today's politics and the struggles of small countries and societies.

-AoA-it was a revelation but I didn't really like it, story-wise, and it seemed that most battles were, in all their glory of variety, one-dimensional. Take out beams. Take out bombers. Take out beams, again.
Sit back, as teammates do the work. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it though. :D

-WiH was much more enjoyable. Strategy on a bigger scale, something you can really get into. Great missions, a lot of variety, a lot of ways to play, a lot of new and exciting ships and weaponry, great tactics and counter-tactics...just a masterpiece. My favorite was the last act-stealth missions are what I imagined ever since the first pegasus deployment in fs2. Oh, speaking of Pegasus, we were on the receiving end but man did that assasination look cool or what. Brilliantly executed, SOC, good job.

-I imagine Steele as an aging greyish hair-tough as nails-swears a lot-veteran fighter. Definitely my favorite character in the game.

-I don't particularly like either of the two main characters, maybe I prefer Neomi.

-The other dimension stuff in AoA was a total turnoff. I can imagine everything else in both the original games and the bp story, but the alternate universe stuff, no.

Can't wait for voice acting to finish. That will bring a whole new dimension (pun intended) of awesome.



Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on May 14, 2014, 01:48:24 pm
I don't think there's anything wrong with the alternate dimension stuff. It works, there's precedent in other mods, and perfectly within the expected capabilities of what we assume to be Type III+ civilizations.
You're messing with dimensions every time you subspace jump anyway.

From the mockups posted whenever, Steele looks like Benjamin Sisko with a bionic eye.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hobbie on May 14, 2014, 05:18:39 pm
I don't think there's anything wrong with the alternate dimension stuff. It works, there's precedent in other mods, and perfectly within the expected capabilities of what we assume to be Type III+ civilizations.
You're messing with dimensions every time you subspace jump anyway.

From the mockups posted whenever, Steele looks like Benjamin Sisko with a bionic eye.

Welp, that explains a huge amount. And the voice recording we have of him matches this completely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IcemanFreespace on May 15, 2014, 11:16:02 am
I don't think there's anything wrong with the alternate dimension stuff. It works, there's precedent in other mods, and perfectly within the expected capabilities of what we assume to be Type III+ civilizations.
You're messing with dimensions every time you subspace jump anyway.

Fair enough, I just don't like it. Also, it is implied that although on par with Vishnans in every other area, the Shivans aren't all-dimensional and powerful which isn't right.

By the way, I went to the retail campaign, to try it out with media vp's and all that nice shine, also knowing what I know now from BP. GTVA seems to be dead on, as far as their tendencies and behaviour. Just looking at their excursion to Gamma Draconis and agressive handling of that situation, the attack on UEF makes that much more sense.

On another topic completely, I often wondered if the Destroyers' motives are somewhat connected to the fragile relationship and slightly disfunctional and artificial alliance between Terrans and Vasudans. Thinking about it-between Neo Terra, racist remarks all around, Vasudans' superiority complex and difference in basic direction in which the species are heading ( one is dreaming about home, the other is creating another home), it seems that Shivans are the only thing keeping the allies together. Excluding preservers and destroyers, when a generation switch happens and there are no living survivors of the second incursion, a new war seems a high possibility, which then brings the Destroyers back into the fold. Their assesment of Terrans of destroyers is exactly correct by the way, both historically and in FS continuum.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 15, 2014, 11:31:48 am
The Shivans and Vishnans aren't on par in any respect, really - they're very, very different, with their own strengths and weaknesses.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on May 16, 2014, 04:22:37 am
On another topic completely, I often wondered if the Destroyers' motives are somewhat connected to the fragile relationship and slightly disfunctional and artificial alliance between Terrans and Vasudans. Thinking about it-between Neo Terra, racist remarks all around, Vasudans' superiority complex and difference in basic direction in which the species are heading ( one is dreaming about home, the other is creating another home), it seems that Shivans are the only thing keeping the allies together. Excluding preservers and destroyers, when a generation switch happens and there are no living survivors of the second incursion, a new war seems a high possibility, which then brings the Destroyers back into the fold. Their assesment of Terrans of destroyers is exactly correct by the way, both historically and in FS continuum.

You should definitely browse the BP forums and take a look at the discussions therein regarding the vishnans, shivans, zods and terrans, the mythologies, ideologies, strategies and biologies, etc. I'm sure you'll find them fascinating and entertaining.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: IcemanFreespace on May 16, 2014, 09:01:21 am
I have, a lot of it. It is fun, yeah. It's tough reading though. Apart from regular off topic, pages and pages are wasted on some who just don't understand basics of the plot or refuse to read the techroom entries.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on May 16, 2014, 09:15:30 am
Yes, this format of discussion has that problem. But the discussion gets so good at some points I wonder if curating the better bits into one big collection wouldn't make it more... consumable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Gray113 on May 16, 2014, 10:38:51 am
Whilst the discussion board is active are we likely to see any preview pics similar to spectacular previews we were treated to pre tenebra?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on May 16, 2014, 10:52:49 am
When we get to a year before release maybe... so I'll guess we'll start seeing those in 2016 or 2017
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on May 28, 2014, 08:58:36 pm
Hey so I just noticed that in "Eyes in the Storm" the UEC Ignatius is actually a platform.  At least, when you click on the icon, that's what shows up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on May 29, 2014, 09:26:29 pm
So this came up in the IRC last night, and Battuta mentioned he hadn't seen the explicit realization anywhere on the boards yet:

Spoiler:
"He waits in the cooling ruin for a daughter made out of war"

That line made its debut in Age of Aquarius, on a cargo container in a Shivan depot.  It is repeated by the Hammer of Light representative in the dreamscape.

He is Admiral Aken Bosch.  The cooling ruin is Capella.  Laporte is the daughter made out of war.  The Hammer of Light knows about Bosch.  What's more, they know where he is.  And they know what he is.

If the Hammer of Light knows, I'd be willing to be that the Jester knows.

If the Jester knows, Emperor Khonsu II knows.

The Vasudan half of the GTVA is aware of the nature of this conflict, and the stakes.  And yet, that knowledge hasn't been shared.

Now why do you think that is?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CommanderDJ on May 29, 2014, 10:26:05 pm
Whoa. :eek2:

Spoiler:
Do they have anything to gain by not sharing? Or would they simply not trust the Terran half with that information?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 29, 2014, 10:30:16 pm
It seems to me it would be pretty horifically stupid to not share that.  I guess its believable though.

Also how do we know the GTA isnt aware?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on May 29, 2014, 10:41:02 pm
If the GTA is aware, they're not doing anything about it.

I'd wager that the distrust between the two halves of the GTVA has reached a point where this could be held in reserve.  Alternately, Khonsu could have easily decided that this is too important to tell the General Assembly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on May 29, 2014, 10:57:36 pm
The trust isn't so bad that Vasudan reactor techs are kept off military installations/ships. So maybe the 2nd alternative then.

Also, while The Jester may know who and what Bosch is, would he know what Bosch wants/offers? Isn't that the crux of the conflict? Does anyone apart from Laporte (& whoever Laporte has told) know that?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on May 29, 2014, 11:16:36 pm
The Hammer of Light has an envoy inside the Dreamscape.  If they didn't know before, they do now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on May 29, 2014, 11:30:28 pm
Oops, I forgot that.  So, does the HoL pass info to the Jester (either knowingly or not) or do they just get data from the same source.  Hmmm... given that only happens at the end of Act 3, and assuming that the info flow is HoL -> Jester -> Khonsu then it may just be that Khonsu doesn't yet have or has only just acquired the knowledge, so he may not have had a chance to tell the GTVA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on May 29, 2014, 11:40:31 pm
I have a pet theory that the Jester is the head of the HoL, judging by the HoL (and only the HoL among Vasudans, to date) being involved in Nagari.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on May 30, 2014, 03:50:16 am
That's a great catch Scotty!

Although there's something of an assumption here, why do you assume that the GTA is unaware of Bosch? Steele is clearly aware of "nagari" infiltrations through "dreams", and we all assume he's talking about Vishnans, but he could be more aware of **** than we realise.

Hell, he could even be manipulated by Bosch himself too! (I'm not saying he is, I'm just trying to suss out what is deducible at this point).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BritishShivans on May 30, 2014, 04:16:10 am
I'm surprised no one caught the "cooling ruin waiting for the daughter of war" thing, too. I forgot about it, but I figured it had to do with Ken and Laporte after playing Tenebra.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: swashmebuckle on May 30, 2014, 02:04:06 pm
Watched the WiH developer commentary videos last night. Any chance the rest of the released acts getting a similar treatment?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on May 30, 2014, 02:09:00 pm
I think they made a behind-the-scenes thread a while back, detailing the making of a few Tenebra missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 30, 2014, 02:11:45 pm
I'd love to. I have a mic now, but no good video capture solution. If someone gave me good clean recordings of people playing the missions I could record commentary. Bringing in guests is less likely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 30, 2014, 02:12:36 pm
If we can arrange the times, I'm up for it as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on May 31, 2014, 04:24:39 am
I have a pet theory that the Jester is the head of the HoL, judging by the HoL (and only the HoL among Vasudans, to date) being involved in Nagari.

I had a quick skim of the techroom, and I note that the 'Vasudan' entry mentions a political rumour of Khonsu taking council with certain HoL thinkers, as well as even more esoteric mystics and prophets (this could include the Jester?).  Then, in the 'Vasudan Mysticism Part 2' entry it states that The Jester is completely unaffiliated with the HoL.  Those together seem to indicate that the Jester isn't the HoL head. Having said that, do you have any more info about your theory that I may have missed?

(And in any event, to the original point, if Khonsu has direct contact with the HoL per the political rumour, then maybe he'd have the info about Bosch (etc) already anyway).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: swashmebuckle on May 31, 2014, 04:43:11 am
I'd love to. I have a mic now, but no good video capture solution. If someone gave me good clean recordings of people playing the missions I could record commentary. Bringing in guests is less likely.
Weren't you guys using Quantum Delta's playthroughs for the video material? He has all of WiH on his youtube (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLC757F21A28582E70) playlists (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFmywiZRI-YPTxfZyhRRwjijwjTtADF2Y). They're straight gameplay with no commentary, so even if the original files don't exist anymore you could just rip them and duck the volume to talk over (assuming he's ok with that).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on May 31, 2014, 07:45:26 am
I'd love to. I have a mic now, but no good video capture solution. If someone gave me good clean recordings of people playing the missions I could record commentary. Bringing in guests is less likely.

If we can arrange the times, I'm up for it as well.
Perhaps I should do a livestream and you could do the commentary while I fly very poorly?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 31, 2014, 02:46:40 pm
That sounds like a really cool idea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on June 01, 2014, 11:19:25 am
As an experienced poor flier, that does sound like a really cool idea.  The trick will probably be to explode just often enough that they can get all the commentary in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 01, 2014, 11:35:28 am
The problem is my schedule. I don't think I can coordinate getting 4 people online, sorting out technical issues, prepping my own notes, and hitting talking points without slacking off on writing or actual BP work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on June 03, 2014, 07:09:21 am
In an effort not to hijack the persona writing thread.
Quote
Spoiler:
$Message: XSTR("Jump flash - contact! Shivan contact!.", -1)
+Wave Name: uef3fleetcontactshivans.ogg

$Message: XSTR("Humanity stands!", -1)
+Wave Name: uef3fleetpraiseshivans.ogg

$Mood: Shivans

Spoiler:
Shivans, eh?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on June 03, 2014, 07:17:33 am
It's been talked about before. The personas are made to be reusable in other mods, including ones where you would be fighting Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 03, 2014, 10:15:30 am
Yeah, it's just something we wanted for extensibility. Even our persona templates for characters like Karen and Kassim have Shivan entries.

We wouldn't be dumb enough to spoil a plot point like that right out in the open.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on June 03, 2014, 12:40:22 pm
Quote
+Persona: UEF3FltMale
That was one of my characters! :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on July 14, 2014, 01:31:00 pm
Just reading through the Blue Planet Orders of Battle article.
There each Raynor class destroyer is listed as Erebus class, but as of yet there is no article for the Erebus.
Would a new article simply uses the text from the original Raynor article or will a new description be given?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 15, 2014, 01:24:13 am
I think people are holding out until we actually see the Erebus. For now, although we know the Erebus will retcon the Raynor in BP, we know comparatively little about it. Certainly not enough for more than a stub.

EDITED for period justice
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on July 15, 2014, 11:15:36 pm
True, turret loadout at least.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on July 17, 2014, 11:22:44 pm
I still think Erebus is really menacing for a GTA ship class. It's like the GTD Death or SCv Bunnies. I'd have preferred Hector or something.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on July 18, 2014, 01:53:16 am
As opposed to names like Medusa, Deimos, Erinyes, Atalanta?  Or Nyx, who occupies a very similar place in Greek mythology.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on July 18, 2014, 03:05:29 am
GTD Erebus, Death Class of Thanatos Juggernaughts. Dark Fleet. Commanded by Admiral Dire.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: BritishShivans on July 19, 2014, 06:51:54 am
GTD of GTD's GTD, Really Nasty-class Juggalonaut. Commanded by Captain Sadomasochist.  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on July 19, 2014, 07:19:54 am
As opposed to names like Medusa, Deimos, Erinyes, Atalanta?  Or Nyx, who occupies a very similar place in Greek mythology.
All make sense given their intended roles. The Medusa, meant to destroy Vasudans; the Deimos and Erinyes, born of a hubristic GTVA; the Atlanta and Nyx, meant to combat UEF fighters; the Chimera, a fusion of human technology and alien tactics.

But the Erebus is different: the GTVA's ship of the line, the bloody bulwark against Shivan invasion. It's an ominous name for the symbol of Terran resistance against an overwhelming enemy. Hence why I say something like Hector would have been more appropriate, the hero of humanity.

 
GTD Erebus, Death Class of Thanatos Juggernaughts. Dark Fleet. Commanded by Admiral Dire.
Freespace40k
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on July 19, 2014, 07:44:52 am
The name works because of multiple reasons, one of them being the invocation of the GTVA's state of mind; It being synonymous with Tartarus shows the GTVA's duplicity in the conflict; etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on July 19, 2014, 12:01:09 pm
GTD Erebus, Death Class of Thanatos Juggernaughts. Dark Fleet. Commanded by Admiral Dire.

I'd like to transfer to his ship please.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on July 19, 2014, 10:39:38 pm
The name works because of multiple reasons, one of them being the invocation of the GTVA's state of mind; It being synonymous with Tartarus shows the GTVA's duplicity in the conflict; etc.
That would make sense if the Erebus were designed for the Sol conflict. It isn't; its primary purpose is to be a mainline combatant against the Shivans, buying precious time while meson bombs are scrambled to nodes. The invocation becomes less "death to the enemy" and more "death assignment."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on July 20, 2014, 12:30:36 pm
With the exception of the Nyx, the wave 2 fighters weren't designed for the UEF conflict either - the Atalanta and Draco were both conceived as interception platforms in another Shivan incursion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hopeful on July 23, 2014, 10:03:15 pm
I hate to be a nag, but I'm too excited about the voice-acting to restrain myself: I know full-well the policy regarding release dates, but could we see WiH part 1 VA implemented by New Year's?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on July 24, 2014, 02:08:00 am
It's not impossible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hopeful on July 24, 2014, 06:31:37 am
Ahh, that gives me even more hope for its release! Thanks for that quick response too! I may as well let slip why I get especially-curious: I'm tentatively considering LPing AoA and WiH once it gets updated with voice-acting, co-commentating with a good friend of mine.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on August 04, 2014, 01:42:15 pm
I currently have no shadows.

I remember that it was deactivated by default and needed a command line parameter to activate. Is that still the case and if so, can someone please remind me what it was?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: camelpockets on September 06, 2014, 08:22:18 pm
I'm sure the people who have/are working on BP are asked this quite a bit, but how is the progress on Acts 4&5? I just played through all of it a week ago and fell in love with the campaign, and I'm eager to see the surprises ahead.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 29, 2014, 05:35:27 pm
Wish I had more time to involve with all this. Really have not been keeping up. :) Would have loved to create an asset for the team just to say I made something for BP instead of just playing BP but that's not going to happen anytime soon with my schedual, I think this is almost turning into an annual visit of mine. :lol: 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on October 30, 2014, 06:28:30 am
Then finish your Helios mission :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Sara- on October 30, 2014, 08:31:34 am
Then finish your Helios mission :D

But it's trailer fluff, smoke and mirrors really. I'm not even certain if I still have it on my drive. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on October 30, 2014, 10:12:04 pm
Just spotted these on youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwk65I25DI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HwH37irCik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfNIrRtTmU

They look amazing. Especially the new Artemis video...just wow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 30, 2014, 10:51:05 pm
Just spotted these on youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwk65I25DI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HwH37irCik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfNIrRtTmU

They look amazing. Especially the new Artemis video...just wow.
I would just like to second this. The new AoA credits video shows off some fantastic FREDing, especially with regards to the camerawork:


Especially that transition at 0:45.

Stunning work all around, by everyone involved.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: procdrone on October 31, 2014, 04:37:29 am
OH MY GOD.... camera masterwork TO BE SURE....!

Thats the hell great one of a video!

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on October 31, 2014, 04:51:25 am
:yes:

Can't wait :)

The second one is "not available in my country", but even with Hola! working in the US or GER it doesn't work as well. I'm sad :(

But.... very very psyched! :D Great work guys!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on October 31, 2014, 05:14:26 am
Second link's issue must be from the song it uses, here's one with an alternate track.


Thought the cutscenes could do with an update for the Director's Cut (plus gave me a chance to practice some tips and tricks I stole learned with Axem's help)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on October 31, 2014, 06:17:23 am
Great to see the Erebus in all her gloy  :D
Where have I seen that new vasudan ship though?
Esarais's Emperor surfaces in my mind...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nyctaeus on October 31, 2014, 10:15:07 am
You guys are doing spectacular work. Keep it that way. Can't wait to play WiH part 4 :yes:

What is the white ship in first part of Artemis Station intro?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 31, 2014, 01:35:02 pm
Second link's issue must be from the song it uses, here's one with an alternate track.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm a fan of Within Temptation, but I vastly prefer this track. :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on October 31, 2014, 02:45:33 pm
Since Aesaar is reimagining the TEV fleet, is it to be expected he'll reimagine the Titan too?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on October 31, 2014, 03:02:18 pm
He said it would be the last ship since it's the most "different" from the pack. As far as I remember.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on October 31, 2014, 03:35:59 pm
It's being worked on:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on October 31, 2014, 04:21:25 pm
hng.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on October 31, 2014, 05:34:52 pm
Sweet mother of mercy...four beams?!
Stunning :shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on November 01, 2014, 11:52:32 am
Second link's issue must be from the song it uses, here's one with an alternate track.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm a fan of Within Temptation, but I vastly prefer this track. :yes:

At first, I thought that the first song was better - the mood fit, and the "highs and lows" (don't know much music lingo) seemed to fit the camera transitions.

But, on second thought, there is just something that I can't put my finger on about that second track that makes it better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on November 01, 2014, 12:25:11 pm
WHY
WHAT IS HAPPEN I COULD NOTZEE
IS BORKED LING.
GGGGGUUUUUKKKKKKHHHHHHH!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JCDNWarrior on November 02, 2014, 02:30:17 pm
Wish I had more time to involve with all this. Really have not been keeping up. :) Would have loved to create an asset for the team just to say I made something for BP instead of just playing BP but that's not going to happen anytime soon with my schedual, I think this is almost turning into an annual visit of mine. :lol: 

Similar. Life keeps me busy, modding time goes to Skyrim mostly. Still can't stop thinking of what I'd like to make and play in FS2.

Looking forward to Act 4 though for certain!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on November 02, 2014, 11:40:52 pm
Second link's issue must be from the song it uses, here's one with an alternate track.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm a fan of Within Temptation, but I vastly prefer this track. :yes:
:yes: :yes: :yes:
It fits a lot better. What is it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 03, 2014, 02:40:21 am
Second link's issue must be from the song it uses, here's one with an alternate track.
I'll be the first to admit that I'm a fan of Within Temptation, but I vastly prefer this track. :yes:
:yes: :yes: :yes:
It fits a lot better. What is it?
After consulting my IRC logs, I'd say it's Will o' the Wisp by Jillian Aversa (with Christopher Tin) (http://jillianaversa.bandcamp.com/track/will-o-the-wisp-with-christopher-tin).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Luis Dias on November 03, 2014, 04:03:19 am
It's being worked on:

ahah gone 404. Guess someone didn' like the advertisement! Too bad I only peeked in my phone that doesn't support p3d...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 03, 2014, 05:23:00 am
Just read about weaponry in the wiki...
the Winter King is said to consume the full power of a meson reactor.
But what are the power requirements of other beam weapons or are these reactors only used on Titan- and Raynor/Erebus-classes?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 03, 2014, 06:18:45 am
Other beams, including the Ice Queen beams on the Titan, can be powered by the main reactor of the ship. The Winter King beam is a bit of a special case here. While it would be possible to build a ship with a main reactor capable of powering a WK beam, the additional weapon systems on the Erebus require so much power that the simplest solution was to make the WK beam independent of the main power supply. This allowed the design team to fit the same main reactor assembly as is found on the Titan class, reducing per-unit costs considerably. In addition, it is believed that future upgrades to the class' main armament will be made considerably easier, since they would not require as extensive refits to the main reactor as the ones necessary to upgrade the old Orion class to carry beam weapons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Chemieonkel on November 03, 2014, 09:56:30 am
None of the Links ist working :(

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 03, 2014, 10:46:04 am
Other beams, including the Ice Queen beams on the Titan, can be powered by the main reactor of the ship. The Winter King beam is a bit of a special case here. While it would be possible to build a ship with a main reactor capable of powering a WK beam, the additional weapon systems on the Erebus require so much power that the simplest solution was to make the WK beam independent of the main power supply. This allowed the design team to fit the same main reactor assembly as is found on the Titan class, reducing per-unit costs considerably. In addition, it is believed that future upgrades to the class' main armament will be made considerably easier, since they would not require as extensive refits to the main reactor as the ones necessary to upgrade the old Orion class to carry beam weapons.
So... could you say how many of the "smaller" beams can be powered by a dedicated meson reactor?
Im just curious :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 03, 2014, 11:09:36 am
So... could you say how many of the "smaller" beams can be powered by a dedicated meson reactor?
Im just curious :D

Technically, all of them. There is nothing to stop a ship designer from incorporating dedicated reactors for all beam mounts; the problem is that this vastly increases complexity and cost, which is something TEI designs try to avoid if at all possible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2014, 02:39:37 pm
Hi guys! I am taking a couple days off between novel contracts to try to get Simms' VA polished and into SVN. All the recording for the Director's Cut is long done, so the holdup is me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: deathspeed on November 03, 2014, 06:48:11 pm
:welcomegreen:

Great to see you back, Battuta!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Azrael15 on November 04, 2014, 08:22:26 am
Just spotted these on youtube...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIwk65I25DI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HwH37irCik
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PVfNIrRtTmU

They look amazing. Especially the new Artemis video...just wow.
I would just like to second this. The new AoA credits video shows off some fantastic FREDing, especially with regards to the camerawork:


Especially that transition at 0:45.

Stunning work all around, by everyone involved.

What was the song in the video the middle link - apparently it was Within Temptation? I'm curious to see which one might've been picked.

And what's the song for the AoA credits? I'm really digging it. The camera work - especially the shot involving the Sanctuary and its pilots - is phenomenal.

I remember when Derelict was first released with the GTFf Saphah and when the first TBP release happened. It's crazy just how far this community as come.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2014, 09:51:41 am
I want the name of that AoA credits song too. Love that video so much, I've been binge-watching it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 04, 2014, 12:06:02 pm
What was the song in the video the middle link - apparently it was Within Temptation? I'm curious to see which one might've been picked.
Within Temptation - Edge of the World (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4JrGMZwnrM) (although if Youtube doesn't let you watch the BP video with that song, they probably won't let you watch a video of that song by itself, but... eh).

I want the name of that AoA credits song too. Love that video so much, I've been binge-watching it.
Thirded; I've sort of had the video constantly open in one tab and hit "replay" every time I remember it's there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on November 04, 2014, 04:35:45 pm
Damn I am so excited. Probably more excited for the VA release than any actual PC game releases for the rest of 2014.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on November 04, 2014, 04:59:58 pm
Damn I am so excited. Probably more excited for the VA release than any actual PC game releases for the rest of 2014.

(http://i.imgur.com/7drHiqr.gif)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CloudZ1116 on November 04, 2014, 07:14:59 pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkBMAHUkibY

GET HYPE!!!!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on November 05, 2014, 03:05:02 am
Song in AoA credits is Terry Devine-King - Centaurus
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 05, 2014, 05:20:09 pm
While both songs for the new sunglare are nice, I'm a bit sad to see (hear) Unborn Child going.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 05, 2014, 05:55:27 pm
While both songs for the new sunglare are nice, I'm a bit sad to see (hear) Unborn Child going.
It's not.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2014, 08:36:22 pm
Yeah I can't imagine Unborn Child won't remain the default.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 05, 2014, 09:00:46 pm
Darius said as much on IRC the other day:
Quote from: #bp
<SDMR> Is Aney going to be replaced in new Sunglare?
<@Darius> SDMR: no
<@Darius> aney's still there by default
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 06, 2014, 11:19:51 am
So... those videos are just to showcase the new camera-work and used different songs for spicing things up?

Either way I'm relieved.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SSJDiVaD on November 09, 2014, 11:32:33 am
When I saw those videos, I started screaming like a fangirl. My parents had to check if I was ok.

I hope you guys release it during a time when my work schedule gives me a break; otherwise the professors of the five different jobs I'm currently working at the University of Toronto are going to be extremely disappointed with me during that week, and my grades going to take a nosedive.

I loved Unborn Child; I'm glad to see you guys decided to keep it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 09, 2014, 06:19:12 pm
I love the BP soundtrack and have bought a couple of the songs on iTunes.

However, there are a couple I'm missing that I'm looking for.  If someone could tell me the track name and artist name so I can get them from iTunes I'd really appreciate that:

1-The track played during the opening cutscene of WIH...where Artemis station is being evacuated and the frigate is trying to move into range of the Atreus to get into ramming speed

2-The track played when the Meridian is chased off and the pilots chat for a while
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 09, 2014, 07:10:48 pm
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71700.0 (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=71700.0)

Look at the missions to find what's used where.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on November 09, 2014, 07:23:54 pm
the 1st one is Freedom Fighters by Two Steps to Hell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tomimaki on November 10, 2014, 05:54:03 pm
2nd is Liberty Shield by Immediate Music
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: deathspeed on November 10, 2014, 07:12:04 pm
The first time I heard this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MKvsXA94Zk) song from Tangerine Dream on Spotify I thought it would be awesome for a BP trailer.  Then I realized it already came from a video game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 10, 2014, 09:33:44 pm
2nd is Liberty Shield by Immediate Music


Thanks for the information, unfortunately I wasn't able to find "Liberty Shield" by Immediate on iTunes (I'm not blaming you or anything like that though).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SypheDMar on November 10, 2014, 10:51:05 pm
Darius said as much on IRC the other day:
Quote from: #bp
<SDMR> Is Aney going to be replaced in new Sunglare?
<@Darius> SDMR: no
<@Darius> aney's still there by default
I can confirm!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 11, 2014, 06:18:17 am
Thanks for the information, unfortunately I wasn't able to find "Liberty Shield" by Immediate on iTunes (I'm not blaming you or anything like that though).
You can extract it out of the game files of BP. Converting .ogg into .mp3 shouldn't be a problem either, if you even need to convert it in the first place. At least Winamp plays oggs just fine.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 11, 2014, 11:26:44 pm
For what it's worth, Youtube does have the song.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 13, 2014, 03:02:30 pm
Since I don't know to extract out of VP files (I've  also been advised by Battuta that I as an 'end user' shouldn't mess with the primary files) , would this method work:

-Find the track on Youtube
-Download and convert it to MP3
-Import to iTunes

I just want to be 100% sure on this...this would be legal since I'm not selling it or distributing it (but rather just keeping for individual listening) correct?



EDIT:  I want to obtain this track legally.  For the record, I haven't downloaded it from Youtube or done this VP method suggested.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on November 13, 2014, 03:21:44 pm
That sounds very hypocritical considering his previously stated stance on using copyrighted work, not funny now that you are on the other side of the fence, eh? You can use VPViewer to open and extract/add things to a VP file. But I encourage you to track down the artists and get the tracks through means they accept.

EDIT: All right, it appears to have been a misunderstanding. Carry on folks. Nothing worth minding about here.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 13, 2014, 03:52:02 pm
What Battuta was referring to earlier I believe was changing VP files to help fix a problem with a campaign mod.  I don't believe that had to do with copyrighted material.  I'm not that tech savvy, so I may have been confused about something.

I don't want people to feel insulted or accused of being hypocrites.  I'm sorry if I messed up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 13, 2014, 04:10:05 pm
Yeah my advice was just 'don't try to add stuff to the VP files, use the /data/ directory for modding and fixing.'
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on November 13, 2014, 04:48:41 pm
This needs an anime theme song parody ASAP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vemKrH5Rvfw (metastaticly stares at Axem)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on November 13, 2014, 09:53:40 pm
That cel-shading is pretty damn cool.  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 14, 2014, 12:32:52 am
(metastaticly stares at Axem)
He is corrupting our innocent minds !

Also,
That cel-shading is pretty damn cool.  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: procdrone on November 14, 2014, 02:54:18 am
Guys really, stop harassing us with all that great stuff and give us the (already) much wanted act 4!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on November 14, 2014, 03:07:07 am
Some (very work in progress) proof we've actually been working on Act 4 and not sitting around nitpicking which credits music to add next to Sunglare!

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on November 14, 2014, 04:02:07 am
Cel shading ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 14, 2014, 05:30:37 am
How is it possible, that Laporte seems to outsmart Steele?^^
Edit: Cool vid :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 14, 2014, 07:04:05 am
Really not a fan of that cel shading.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nagrach on November 14, 2014, 09:11:37 am
Uh I hope that Cel Shading is just a joke... or atleast Optional. Pretty much kills Immersion for me...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 14, 2014, 09:28:13 am
Don't worry, it's not a BP thing.  It's just a Darius thing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nagrach on November 14, 2014, 10:00:45 am
Thx for the very fast answer  :cool: also I think that might be a cool feature for mods like Wings of Dawn...  :nervous:

Funny thing: Yesterday I showed a friend that loves Manga and such a Wings of Dawn trailer: "There is no Cel Shading for the Engine at the moment, but I'm sure there will be somone working on it in the Future."

Also: Moving Tanks, Ground Missions? Holy Ken!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 14, 2014, 10:58:08 am
The tanks look like moving fortresses(is that the correct plural?)
Would love to read a tech description about them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on November 14, 2014, 11:23:33 am
Is it just me, or does it look like the missile turrets on those tanks would severely hamper the rotational freedom of the main gun?

Oh yeah, and  :eek:. Excitement intensifies!  :shaking:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 14, 2014, 12:48:49 pm
I've been out of the loop too long. These look amaze balls.


Can has full RL name on credits?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 14, 2014, 02:17:03 pm
Sorry for the confusion Battuta.


Pretty much every other BP track I've been looking for has been available for purchase.  I was just hoping "Liberty Shield" would have been too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on November 14, 2014, 02:35:49 pm
Need to know what track you used on that video Darius plz.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lepanto on November 14, 2014, 02:44:06 pm
Lovely and intense, but then again, I'd expect nothing less from BP.

If I may ask, how do the tanks smoothly move across ground? Well-placed waypoints? A special script or something? Conveniently flat ground?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhys on November 14, 2014, 04:02:04 pm
CAS in Freespace 2? What? I like this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on November 14, 2014, 04:13:08 pm
Really not a fan of that cel shading.

Kind of agree, gives it a Borderlands-like look, which fit that story fine, but, in my opinion, doesn't really fit the BP atmosphere all too well.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on November 14, 2014, 04:20:16 pm
It looked [the cel shading] to me like a mod just for atmospheric missions to help see objects in the background.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 14, 2014, 04:31:49 pm
Agreed, in the context of atmospheric perspective. Which is integral to any artistic rendering.  The cell shading is fine. As long as the complex or fortress is a reasonable distance.
(Which would make it the size of mount fuji) :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on November 14, 2014, 08:03:54 pm
I've been out of the loop too long. These look amaze balls.


Can has full RL name on credits?

Of course. This goes for anyone else as well, let me know if you want to be credited by pseudonym or real name.

BP won't be shipping with cel-shading, it's something I've got set up on my end.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 15, 2014, 02:34:18 pm
I also looked on Amazon and "Liberty Shield" (they sometimes have tracks for purchase iTunes doesn't) and it wasn't available for buying there either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ypoknons on November 16, 2014, 05:43:57 am
Awesomes. Reminds me a bit of Incoming ahahah

Lots of qs raised, like why invade Marz when you could just go Earths, etc... wheeeee~~
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aslandor11 on November 16, 2014, 10:49:31 am
Woah. BP team continues to break down the walls of what I thought possible in Freespace. Nice job guys!
Not sure if this is a nitpick, but are strike craft built for space combat viable for atmosphere? I Think I read that the Uhlan is, but some other craft don't look so streamlined for atmo.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 19, 2014, 01:41:30 pm
One more question on this music issue I've been having:

Would it be worth it to ask Immediate Music on Facebook where I can purchase "Liberty Shield" (since it's not available on Amazon or iTunes)?



Also, I was advised earlier to possibly extract the song out of the VPs.  Just to be sure, that's legal as long as I only use the file for my personal listening (i.e. don't sell it) correct?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 19, 2014, 04:53:56 pm
Also, I was advised earlier to possibly extract the song out of the VPs.  Just to be sure, that's legal as long as I only use the file for my personal listening (i.e. don't sell it) correct?
No, but BP's usage of it isn't strictly legal either.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhys on November 19, 2014, 11:51:52 pm
Also, I was advised earlier to possibly extract the song out of the VPs.  Just to be sure, that's legal as long as I only use the file for my personal listening (i.e. don't sell it) correct?
No, but BP's usage of it isn't strictly legal either.
Wouldn't the usage of that music fall under fair use, assuming that the music was legally acquired and not used for profit?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 20, 2014, 12:22:37 am
We sure hope so! Probably wouldn't hold up to a challenge.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hellzed on November 20, 2014, 02:43:08 am
Is there something as a Blue Planet digital "booklet" ( a nicely presented pdf with some instructions, advice, story, maybe Morrigan in the Sunglare ) ?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 20, 2014, 03:02:00 am
No, mostly because nobody's had the idea until now. It could be pretty cool if someone did make it, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 20, 2014, 12:12:35 pm
Also, I was advised earlier to possibly extract the song out of the VPs.  Just to be sure, that's legal as long as I only use the file for my personal listening (i.e. don't sell it) correct?
No, but BP's usage of it isn't strictly legal either.
Wouldn't the usage of that music fall under fair use, assuming that the music was legally acquired and not used for profit?
I don't think Blue Planet can be classified as "criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research" by any stretch of the imagination.

Quote from: Wikipedia
To justify the use as fair, one must demonstrate how it either advances knowledge or the progress of the arts through the addition of something new. A key consideration is the extent to which the use is interpreted as transformative, as opposed to merely derivative.
While one could make an argument that the usage of the music within the context of BP is a transformative use of the music, the fact that the original music files are available to listen to at any time outside of that context simply by extracting them from the VP file means it would be difficult to argue against an accusation of piracy (assuming anyone decided to make that big a fuss about a free mod... which, unfortunately, companies have done before).

We all hope that Blue Planet basically flies under anyone's radar, but I can't imagine any judge classifying it as "fair use".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhys on November 20, 2014, 01:03:18 pm
While one could make an argument that the usage of the music within the context of BP is a transformative use of the music, the fact that the original music files are available to listen to at any time outside of that context simply by extracting them from the VP file means it would be difficult to argue against an accusation of piracy (assuming anyone decided to make that big a fuss about a free mod... which, unfortunately, companies have done before).

We all hope that Blue Planet basically flies under anyone's radar, but I can't imagine any judge classifying it as "fair use".

Another thing to consider is how you can find much of this music on Youtube despite their DMCA enforcement. While a few of those videos are often taken down, would this not be considered a gray area of fair use? I do suppose though that a C&D could be issued to the BP team if it were a real issue. While a popular mod, it could remain under the DMCA radar. I would be very upset if a cease and desist were issued for BP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: swashmebuckle on November 20, 2014, 01:48:17 pm
Just the presence of a song on youtube doesn't say anything about whether the artist gives permission for others to use it, and it definitely doesn't make a case for fair use. On youtube, the burden of filling out forms for issuing formal DMCA notices falls to the copyright holders, and there are quite a few reasons not to be bothered with them (they take time and energy to issue, they are really easy to get around, they make people angry at you, there's very little money in it, etc.)

There is really nothing "grey area" with this M.O.--every download pushes up the unpaid royalties liability. I would guess that short of downloads in the hundreds of thousands it wouldn't be worth anyone's time to pursue, but I'm not an IP lawyer or a ruthless amoral copyright holding corporation so I dunno.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Col. Fishguts on December 02, 2014, 03:49:27 pm
There seems to be a file mixed up in bp2-visuals1.vp (both the one from FSmods and wherever the FSO installer is pointed at) :

The file "krnamain-shine.dds" is actually identical with "krnadets-shine.dds", wihch leads ugly debris shines all over the main hull. I found the correct "krnamain-shine.dds" in an older VP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on December 02, 2014, 05:37:15 pm
The problem is that once BP is dependency free (Standalone incoming, Source: Lord-Battu'), it will likely become a honeypot once it hits What-the-****-everChan, Reddit, Tumblr, and gaming community sites; if stuff like FNAF can be seen as an example. Then it will inevitably get the attention of CoRHs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 16, 2014, 03:40:17 pm
Question: The GTVA has contigencies for everything. I think somewhere in this thread is somehing about a potential exodus, if the shivans arrive again.
Apart from large sleeper ships, how would such a fleet work? Are logistic ships able to produce everything needed for a fleet on the move or would such a fleet have dedicated ..."Forgeships"?
I'm currently toying around with ship concepts, apart from a frigate with mission modules the idea of forgeships is a big one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 16, 2014, 04:15:30 pm
Considering the comments about being low on supplies at the end of AoA I would assume that the logistic ships are not able to produce everything their battlegroup needs. At least not for a prolonged time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 16, 2014, 09:55:24 pm
That was with continuous combat. I suspect logistics ships can produce most everything a fleet would need, just not as quickly as it might need them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on December 17, 2014, 09:57:36 am
Quote
The GVL Tawaret is an enormous Vasudan logistics vessel, comparable to the Anemoi. The Tawaret, however, doubles as a tanker capable of collecting gas and processing it for fuel to the fleet. As such, the Vasudan logistics ship lacks medical bays, and due to the fuel processing facilities, is susceptible to devastating internal explosions should it be fired upon.
The tech description for the Tawaret seems to imply that the Terran Anemoi class logistic vessels lack the ability to produce fuel. They're essentially gigantic freighters and medical ships that haul supplies around. The Tawaret, however, could sustain the fueling needs of a nomadic battlegroup for much longer, at least until non-fuel supplies start becoming a problem. Having both classes of logistics ships, however, would be much more effective than only one or the other.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on December 17, 2014, 11:17:25 am
It implies that it can't store fuel, and we don't know if Anemoi travel with tankers for that reason, there were certainly a few gas miners in the GTA ranks in BP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: azile0 on December 19, 2014, 03:39:13 pm
-Act 3 spoilers-

So if the Elders are all being influenced by the Vishnans, and the GTVA wants to exterminate Vishnan influence (IE the Elders) then why did an Elder want to go to the GTVA?

Furthermore, how planned out is this story? Was it all written at the same time, or did story writing for BP and WiH happen separately?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 19, 2014, 03:45:11 pm
We don't know if all the Elders were influenced by the Vishnans, but either way the Vishnans have stopped talking alltogether, so that could easily shake the confidence of the Elders. If they feel abandoned by their benefectors, they might take it as a sign that they are doomed. If you believe you can't win, it's only natural to try to negotiate favourable terms for the inevitable surrender.

Or it's also possible that now that she's no longer under the influence of the Vishnans, she realized that they were manipulating mankind for their own ends and not for mankinds benefit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 19, 2014, 06:15:23 pm
Does orestes tactical ever return?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on December 19, 2014, 06:20:23 pm
Act 3 spoilers:
Spoiler:
Meanwhile, the Fuhjadeen use a Shivan for calculations. I may have played too much Mass Effect, but I do consider it a possibility that the Shivans exert some influence on the Fuhjadeen (mainly geared towards more destruction as that ultimately makes their job easier). We don't know how the GTVA predictions come about, but there is this "War In Heaven" title. It's an aspect of quite a few mythologies that if there's War in Heaven, they use humans as pawns.

Also, everybody is defenitely relying on their own socio-economic models too much
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: azile0 on December 19, 2014, 07:29:26 pm
Act 3 spoiler:

Spoiler:
Okay, just to make sure I have everything down correctly:

The Vishnans manipulated humanity via Ubuntu in order to get us closer to their 'enlightenment', and they now think the plan has failed so they're tasking an unknown alien species to annihalate us. Meanwhile, the Shivans are offering an olive branch to save our skins. This has something to do with Laporte, and the Ken entity. Yeah?

Also, game question- in the fight against the Carthage, I lost a lot of ships. The Recommendations said that having a high death toll would have consequences later, but it was never mentioned again. Did I miss something, or was that feature not implemented?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on December 19, 2014, 07:38:31 pm
Spoiler:
Also, game question- in the fight against the Carthage, I lost a lot of ships. The Recommendations said that having a high death toll would have consequences later, but it was never mentioned again. Did I miss something, or was that feature not implemented?

Spoiler:
I believe that it's intended to have consequences in the unreleased parts of BP, possibly Act 4.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on December 19, 2014, 07:40:17 pm
Spoiler:
The Vishnans want the Shivans to cult humanity, but the Shivans have different plans. (Ken)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 20, 2014, 01:54:25 am
Spoiler:
Fuhjadeen
Spoiler:
It's "Fedayeen".

Spoiler:
Also, game question- in the fight against the Carthage, I lost a lot of ships. The Recommendations said that having a high death toll would have consequences later, but it was never mentioned again. Did I miss something, or was that feature not implemented?

Spoiler:
I believe that it's intended to have consequences in the unreleased parts of BP, possibly Act 4.
Spoiler:
There's not really any time for it to have consequences in Act 3; the very next mission is Eyes in the Storm (which doesn't involve 3rd fleet strikecraft) followed by Universal Truth (which involves no ships whatsoever).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 20, 2014, 02:34:34 am
Wait, is transferring saves through multiple campaigns even possible? I mean, you could just start part 3(act 4) without ever having played part 1 or 2, couldn't you?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: azile0 on December 20, 2014, 04:08:24 am
Maybe it's held on to in your pilot file somehow? I'm no modder and I thought that divergent mission paths had to stay within a campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on December 20, 2014, 04:39:21 am
I believe that act 4 & 5 will be part of BP:WiH part 2, i.e. it'll be re-released with act 3-5 in one campaign.  Because you're correct, you can't transfer saves through multiple campaigns (... unless you get funky with LUA I suppose).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: DanielBeaver on December 20, 2014, 07:17:27 pm
Act 3 spoiler:

Spoiler:
Okay, just to make sure I have everything down correctly:

The Vishnans manipulated humanity via Ubuntu in order to get us closer to their 'enlightenment', and they now think the plan has failed so they're tasking an unknown alien species to annihalate us. Meanwhile, the Shivans are offering an olive branch to save our skins. This has something to do with Laporte, and the Ken entity. Yeah?
Act 3 spoiler:

Spoiler:
Yeah, that's basically it. The exchange between the Shivans and Vishnans in Universal Truth suggests that there is a fracture in the governing system of the cosmos (the War in Heaven). What caused this dispute between them is unclear - probably something to do with the Vishnans manipulating the development of the human race.

It seems that the Shivans have decided that they need to resort to different methods than usual to resolve it. Ken/Bosch enters the scene unexpectedly, and the Shivans see an opportunity to use the Humans (through Ken and Laporte) as some sort of trump card to break the impasse against the Vishnans. In episodes 4-5, it looks like Laporte will execute a Shivan plan which will upset the order of the cosmos in some small, but significant way.

The upside for the Humans for following through with this: we get to live.


...though it should be pointed out that it's possible that Laporte and the Fedayeen are being misled. In Age of Aquarius, we are lead to believe that the Vishnans are pretty much just the good guys, and that the Dispute with the Shivans was just the Shivans being unreasonable baddies. But now in War in Heaven we're seeing things from a much less credulous point of view (the Fedayeen analysts are much more cynical than feel-good hippy Samuel Bei), so I'm inclined to think that we're getting a more accurate picture - that the Vishnans are less caring and more big and scary than we thought, that the Shivans serve a more complicated purpose than mere Omnicidal Aliens, and that even the Grand Cosmic Design sits on shaky foundations. That's sort of a running theme in BP2 - that different parties can have reasonable disagreements that lead to violent conflict. The Sol-GTVA war parallels the Shivan-Vishnan conflict in that sense.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: camelpockets on December 21, 2014, 09:13:10 am
Act 3 spoiler:

Spoiler:
Okay, just to make sure I have everything down correctly:

The Vishnans manipulated humanity via Ubuntu in order to get us closer to their 'enlightenment', and they now think the plan has failed so they're tasking an unknown alien species to annihalate us. Meanwhile, the Shivans are offering an olive branch to save our skins. This has something to do with Laporte, and the Ken entity. Yeah?
Act 3 spoiler:

Spoiler:
Yeah, that's basically it. The exchange between the Shivans and Vishnans in Universal Truth suggests that there is a fracture in the governing system of the cosmos (the War in Heaven). What caused this dispute between them is unclear - probably something to do with the Vishnans manipulating the development of the human race.

It seems that the Shivans have decided that they need to resort to different methods than usual to resolve it. Ken/Bosch enters the scene unexpectedly, and the Shivans see an opportunity to use the Humans (through Ken and Laporte) as some sort of trump card to break the impasse against the Vishnans. In episodes 4-5, it looks like Laporte will execute a Shivan plan which will upset the order of the cosmos in some small, but significant way.

The upside for the Humans for following through with this: we get to live.


...though it should be pointed out that it's possible that Laporte and the Fedayeen are being misled. In Age of Aquarius, we are lead to believe that the Vishnans are pretty much just the good guys, and that the Dispute with the Shivans was just the Shivans being unreasonable baddies. But now in War in Heaven we're seeing things from a much less credulous point of view (the Fedayeen analysts are much more cynical than feel-good hippy Samuel Bei), so I'm inclined to think that we're getting a more accurate picture - that the Vishnans are less caring and more big and scary than we thought, that the Shivans serve a more complicated purpose than mere Omnicidal Aliens, and that even the Grand Cosmic Design sits on shaky foundations. That's sort of a running theme in BP2 - that different parties can have reasonable disagreements that lead to violent conflict. The Sol-GTVA war parallels the Shivan-Vishnan conflict in that sense.

Spoiler:
I'm also on the fence about this as well. I would say that the Bei's side of the story is being manipulated, but there is one burning question that lingers in my head: What if the GTVA never did enter war with the UEF? Would the Vishnans still be trying to help? There goal in AoA was trying to restore this cosmic balance by bringing this Expeditionary Force through the portal to a new universe, and earning the trust of this group. If the Vishnans succeeded in convincing the GTVA to make peace rather than wage war, then this balance would have been restored. However, it has not, and it is why I believe that the Vishnans turned sour after realizing that their plan had failed. Their current mindset is what we saw in Laporte's view of the conversation. I don't think either side was manipulated, but rather saw different viewpoints at different times during the conflict.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: DanielBeaver on December 21, 2014, 09:41:48 am
Spoiler:
I'm also on the fence about this as well. I would say that the Bei's side of the story is being manipulated, but there is one burning question that lingers in my head: What if the GTVA never did enter war with the UEF? Would the Vishnans still be trying to help? There goal in AoA was trying to restore this cosmic balance by bringing this Expeditionary Force through the portal to a new universe, and earning the trust of this group. If the Vishnans succeeded in convincing the GTVA to make peace rather than wage war, then this balance would have been restored. However, it has not, and it is why I believe that the Vishnans turned sour after realizing that their plan had failed. Their current mindset is what we saw in Laporte's view of the conversation. I don't think either side was manipulated, but rather saw different viewpoints at different times during the conflict.

Spoiler:
I do wonder what the Vishnan plan with the universe-hopping was in the first place. Bei seems to think that it was some sort of scheme to manipulate the expeditionary force into not starting the war with the UEF (which then failed - did the Vishnans ever speak to Bei after the war started?). But I sort of think that the whole reason for the Age of Aquarius events was to manipulate the fleet into rescuing the Sanctuary, and bringing it back into the "main" universe for some purpose, and that the war was maybe just some unforeseen side-effect. Wouldn't the Elders be miffed if the Vishnans were just manipulating them to some obscure end, and were perfectly content to just let the GTVA kill them all, and then have the Shivans come clean up afterwards?


EDIT: I guess there's really no point to using spoiler tags in this thread?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on December 21, 2014, 11:39:07 am
Quote
EDIT: I guess there's really no point to using spoiler tags in this thread?

I'd say there is. We don't want a very excited fan who posts here to say how much he/she liked Act 1 and 2 get spoiled for act 3.
And considering that there's a Director's Cut coming with a standalone version, there will be quite a few of those fans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: camelpockets on December 22, 2014, 10:23:03 am
Spoiler:

That's a good point you made about the Sanctuary, but I think that ship was there just to build up some of the plot in Age of Aquarius, not necessarily to build more of the storyline in WiH. Though I am curious to see if we get to see some more of the AoA peeps getting involved in this portion of the story. As far as I know, it's just the Bei's that get involved.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 22, 2014, 01:38:39 pm
Speaking of AoA, there's a speech by Elder Mandho in the briefing for "Demons of the Past", the flashback mission, about Ubuntu and Ascended Masters. Considering all the foreshadowing and some of the endgame Techroom entries I'd say that WiH was pretty planned out. A ton of the plot points in AoA are Chekhov's guns just waiting to be fired.

As for the other AoA characters or ships that defected, you'd think most of them would be dead by now. I mean, the Feds would probably try using the advanced beam-armed shock jump trump cards in the first 18 months of the war, and since they haven't been mentioned at all they're either on some super secret mission for the Elders or just dead.

Or maybe they're not using them much since they don't have GTVA fighters to cover them and those super fragile Fed hotrods don't work well with AAA beams everywhere.
Spoiler:
And act 3 tells us Samuel Bei is spending most of his time planning with Elders instead of being in a cockpit so they don't have their own ace in a Persus(Or whatever you chose to fly in the last mission).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on December 22, 2014, 01:39:46 pm
I'm pretty sure they're on the latter of your two possibilities.  Remember that we haven't heard a peep from the captured Anemoi in WiH Part 1, and we'd have heard if that one went down.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 22, 2014, 02:05:06 pm
Well, IDK what the UEF can do with an Orion-sized logistics ship. I mean, the Kuiper belt is just as far as the Moon, 5 minutes in subspace. The Tevs need them since they'd need to make 2 jumps to Delta Serpentis, and another 2 to get back into the action. So jumping back to Earth is just as effective(if not more, since they're in position to defend it) as jumping back to a logistics ship hidden in the system.
Unless they lose Earth, at which point they're screwed either way.
Maybe they can load them up with bombs and use them to ram other ships, JAD style.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2014, 02:12:19 pm
Speaking of AoA, there's a speech by Elder Mandho in the briefing for "Demons of the Past", the flashback mission, about Ubuntu and Ascended Masters. Considering all the foreshadowing and some of the endgame Techroom entries I'd say that WiH was pretty planned out. A ton of the plot points in AoA are Chekhov's guns just waiting to be fired.

As for the other AoA characters or ships that defected, you'd think most of them would be dead by now. I mean, the Feds would probably try using the advanced beam-armed shock jump trump cards in the first 18 months of the war, and since they haven't been mentioned at all they're either on some super secret mission for the Elders or just dead.

Or maybe they're not using them much since they don't have GTVA fighters to cover them and those super fragile Fed hotrods don't work well with AAA beams everywhere.
Spoiler:
And act 3 tells us Samuel Bei is spending most of his time planning with Elders instead of being in a cockpit so they don't have their own ace in a Persus(Or whatever you chose to fly in the last mission).
Mounting beam weapons isn't as simple as "slap them on and use them".  Beam weapons are bulky and have enormous power requirements which most UEF ships just aren't designed to handle.  For the UEF to use beam weapons, they'd need to do the following:

- Reverse-engineer one of the beam cannons they've captured.
- if their new weapon is a blue beam derivative, reverse engineer the Labouchere's reactor and power systems just so they can power the thing
- design and build a whole new ship to mount it, because the Karuna and Narayana just can't do it.

Once they've got this new ship, they've still got something inferior to what the GTVA is fielding.  Let's face it, the UEF's first foray into beam tech isn't going to match the ships of a state that's been designing beam-armed ships for 18+ years.  And then they have give it a crew who's only experience with beam weapons is seeing GTVA ones being fired at them. 

Given the UEF's strategic situation, they just don't have the time or resources to waste on a project like this.

As for why Bei isn't flying: what good would he be?  The UEF has plenty of aces, but there's only so much one fighter can do.  Adding or removing one good pilot would make zero difference in the war.  Putting him in a cockpit would be a massive waste of his Nagari sensitivity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on December 22, 2014, 02:31:53 pm
If they manage to acquire the basics of that technology, then they likely could in fact slap them on, as a note.  The pre-beam Orions seem to have handled that just fine, though that was admittedly due to their relatively modular design.  Unclear how similar the UEF vessels are in design philosophy.

The green beams were also reverse engineered from shivan weaponry, so it isn't entirely crazy that the UEF could do something similar with blue beams.  I have no idea how long that took the GTVA, however.

There is also the question of performance, but I suppose that is another matter entirely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2014, 02:45:52 pm
If they manage to acquire the basics of that technology, then they likely could in fact slap them on, as a note.  The pre-beam Orions seem to have handled that just fine, though that was admittedly due to their relatively modular design.  Unclear how similar the UEF vessels are in design philosophy.

The green beams were also reverse engineered from shivan weaponry, so it isn't entirely crazy that the UEF could do something similar with blue beams.  I have no idea how long that took the GTVA, however.

There is also the question of performance, but I suppose that is another matter entirely.
The UEF could probably make green beams work with their ships, assuming they have space (the BGreen, for instance, is notoriously bulky).  This is because green beams were specifically designed with retrofits in mind.  But then why would the UEF even bother?  Fitting a few TerSlash on a Karuna would take a very long stay in a shipyard, it wouldn't really be an improvement over the Karuna's existing weaponry, and making the required space would probably cut into other systems (like, say, torpedo magazines).  On top of that, GTVA ship armor is specifically designed with beam impacts in mind.  What's the point?

Blue beams are quite simply beyond the power grids and reactors of UEF ships.  They need meson reactors and a power grid designed for that kind of draw.  It would absolutely require a new ship.  Same reason you can't put blue beams on Capella-era GTVA ships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 22, 2014, 02:52:59 pm
Well, I wasn't talking about reffiting Karunas with beams and advanced jump drives, I was just talking about using the GTC Duke and the GTCv Labouchere, ships that defected to the UEF, they'd only have to keep them supplied.
The GTL Solace defected too(and hasn't been mentioned since), probably because the UEF just has no need for a GTL Anemoi logistics ship, at least not yet.

As for why Bei isn't flying: what good would he be?  The UEF has plenty of aces, but there's only so much one fighter can do.  Adding or removing one good pilot would make zero difference in the war.  Putting him in a cockpit would be a massive waste of his Nagari sensitivity.
I call shennanigans on that one. In "conversations from WiH" it's made very clear that the UEF has <10 people with the same flight hours as Lorna Simms, since they're letting their aces stay on the front and eventually die. They could really use a few more aces, especially those familiar with GTVA ships. Disable the IFF and someone might hesitate for a second, in the slight case that it's a friendly ship that got it's comms and sensors destroyed.
Wouldn't really work long-term, but even slight hesitation can win a close dogfight.

Also, GTVA pilots are probably the masters of beam-disarming, if AoA is anything to go by. They'd never make it through AoA alive if not for those beam killing skills, and while the UEF had to adapt to that in 18 months, the GTVA has been in the beam killing business for 18 years.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2014, 03:08:25 pm
Why?  What difference is one Chimera and one Hyperion going to make for the UEF?  The Chimera is much less tactically flexible than the Karuna, and its strengths are very dependent on synergy with other GTVA ships.   One artillery corvette with a sprint drive isn't very useful when the rest of your fleet can't keep up with it.  You either pair it up with other ships, in which case the sprint drive is wasted, or you have it do things alone, which isn't a good idea because the Chimera is designed for fleet support and is quite vulnerable on its own.

It's a lot like the Narayana in this respect, except even more vulnerable because at least the Narayana has a fighterbay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 22, 2014, 03:28:10 pm
The sprint drive is very useful, as it can quickly jump from 1 engagement to another. We know that the war is often waged in multiple places at once, that sprint drive means the Chimera could support 1 group of Karuna's and then jump away to another battle if they need some more firepower.
Also, a Hyperion has 5 pulses and 2 AAAs, it can cover multiple frigates against assault fighters and bombers, those pulses are pretty good at both killing craft and shooting down bombs. And that's pretty useful considering how crap Narayanas are versus fighters.
Sure, it's not a complete game changer but a well timed jump can completely shut down a bomber attack or finish off a damaged capship that thinks it's safe.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on December 22, 2014, 03:42:04 pm
I'd note that they are pretty much at the point in their lives where they need every ship they can get, regardless of direct effectiveness.

Aren't they re-servicing the Custos due to Sanctus casualties?  Seems like a Chimera would be a significant improvement on those.  (though the Custos-X supplied by the fedayeen was undoubtledly incredibly badass, many aren't at that level for those not fully in the know)

e:  Probably the biggest downside to that would be the fact that the defected 13th BG ships are likely almost completely dismantled and spread across some kind of research facility at this point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 22, 2014, 03:53:21 pm
Sprint drives still need to recharge.  Just look at the Carthage.  Your plan of having it jump from one engagement to another would end up with it getting caught in the middle of a recharge cycle and then easily disposed of by a hunter-killer team.  Especially since neither the UEF captain or chief engineer are terribly likely to understand the limits of the ship.  And don't think you can use the original crew.  Just because they defected doesn't mean they're willing to take up arms against their former comrades, and it doesn't mean you should let them.

Planning to use the Labouchere the same way Steele uses Serkr just isn't going to yield huge dividends for the simple reason that it's got less than a third of Serkr's firepower and none of their experience.

As for the Duke, one Hyperion changes absolutely nothing.  As an escort cruiser, it's not that much better than the Sanctus.  The Hyperion is a fast attack cruiser, meant for hit and run strikes.  The issue is that just one isn't much better at that job than a gunship wing, which is why the GTVA pretty much always deploys them in pairs.

I really can't think of any engagements in WiH where the outcome would have been seriously altered by adding a Chimera or a Hyperion to the UEF side.

These two might be useful (in that they're better than nothing) but far more useful to the UEF would be tearing them apart to learn everything they can.  Which is probably what happened.  The Duke and Labouchere are probably mostly-empty hulks by now.

The Agincourt and Solace are a different matter because they offer actual strategic benefits to the UEF, unlike the other two ships.


Quote
I call shennanigans on that one. In "conversations from WiH" it's made very clear that the UEF has <10 people with the same flight hours as Lorna Simms, since they're letting their aces stay on the front and eventually die. They could really use a few more aces, especially those familiar with GTVA ships. Disable the IFF and someone might hesitate for a second, in the slight case that it's a friendly ship that got it's comms and sensors destroyed.
Wouldn't really work long-term, but even slight hesitation can win a close dogfight.

Also, GTVA pilots are probably the masters of beam-disarming, if AoA is anything to go by. They'd never make it through AoA alive if not for those beam killing skills, and while the UEF had to adapt to that in 18 months, the GTVA has been in the beam killing business for 18 years.
You know what would be more useful than having him fly?   Having him teach new pilots, which is what the GTVA does with their aces.  The UEF doesn't need more aces, they need fewer rookies dying because of rookie mistakes.  I also doubt Bei would even be willing to fight the GTVA.

There's also the cardinal rule about defectors: you don't trust them.  This is a real life one.  If they betrayed their country, what says they won't have second thoughts and betray you as well?  Why do you think Admiral Bei is basically just a consultant now?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 22, 2014, 04:08:08 pm
That's a good point. Although I don't know how useful Bei would be at instructing UEF rookies, as GTVA fighter tactics are completely different from UEF ones. I guess he could teach them basic dogfighting and hone their reflexes, which is still better than sending them out there completely useless and incapable of shaking off a canal boat(or a Myrmidon) in an Uhlan(And yes, I lost almost all of my scrub wingmates in "Darkest Hour").
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on December 22, 2014, 05:32:21 pm
I would guess that the dismantling and studying of the various defected GTVA ships is a big part of the reason the UEF has shown such impressive results in electronic warfare attacks.

As for all the ships that we never hear from again, don't forget it's mentioned several times that there are lots of assets that just vanish, swallowed up by Admiral Byrnes big super-secret project that we still know little to nothing about.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 22, 2014, 05:45:39 pm
FrikgFeek, you just gave a very good reason why Bei should teach. Who better to teach the rookies about the GTVA fighter doctrine and tactics than someone who learned them first-hand. He can tell them exactly what they can expect from their enemies and teach them about the strength and weakness of the fighters they'll be facing.

UEF aces can teach the rookies the "know yourself" part, while Bei can provide the "know your enemy" part.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: DanielBeaver on December 22, 2014, 09:23:35 pm
The Elders are probably using Bei more for Nagari or Shangrila related activities. And would he even be willing to fight against the GTVA? I'm curious as to whether Bei ever fought the NTF, or whether he only ever fought Shivans. There were apparently some brush wars between the events of FS2 and BP, so I guess he probably did fight other Humans at some point.

Quote
The UEF could probably make green beams work with their ships, assuming they have space
Probably, if they had the time to retrofit their ships. But they only had 18 months, and were fighting a losing war - getting their Narayana's refitted with non-experimental weapon upgrades was probably a difficult enough logistic problem. Presumably if the UEF could hold off the GTVA for another year or two they could get their economic engine revved up for total war, but the impression I have is that they've just been trying to keep their heads above water and never really had the chance to do that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on December 23, 2014, 12:54:24 am
Spoiler:

That's a good point you made about the Sanctuary, but I think that ship was there just to build up some of the plot in Age of Aquarius, not necessarily to build more of the storyline in WiH. Though I am curious to see if we get to see some more of the AoA peeps getting involved in this portion of the story. As far as I know, it's just the Bei's that get involved.
Spoiler:
Rear Admiral Carey is the mole who gave the Agincourt's jump schedule to the Feds, iirc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2014, 02:39:04 am
Quote
The UEF could probably make green beams work with their ships, assuming they have space
Probably, if they had the time to retrofit their ships. But they only had 18 months, and were fighting a losing war - getting their Narayana's refitted with non-experimental weapon upgrades was probably a difficult enough logistic problem. Presumably if the UEF could hold off the GTVA for another year or two they could get their economic engine revved up for total war, but the impression I have is that they've just been trying to keep their heads above water and never really had the chance to do that.
You're absolutely correct about this.  I'd also say green beams, coupled with the UEF's lack of familiarity with beam weapons in general, would make firepower improvements marginal at best.  It wouldn't be worth doing even if they had the chance to do it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 23, 2014, 04:42:21 am
For anti-warship firepower? You're right, adding some shorter ranged green beams wouldn't do much for their ship-to-ship. But even green AAAfs would be pretty damn useful vs fighters. Much more useful than flak or blobs anyway, as they penetrate shields and have a very strong kinetic effect that can punt bombers around and even break their lock.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 23, 2014, 05:50:10 am
For anti-warship firepower? You're right, adding some shorter ranged green beams wouldn't do much for their ship-to-ship. But even green AAAfs would be pretty damn useful vs fighters. Much more useful than flak or blobs anyway, as they penetrate shields and have a very strong kinetic effect that can punt bombers around and even break their lock.

Which would contravene a lot of UEF fighter doctrine. UEF pilots are trained to stay close to the ships, to use the flak as cover. Beams, with their tendency to cause blue-on-blue incidents, would not help.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 23, 2014, 07:35:02 am
Well maybe if they had beams they wouldn't even need so much cover. AAAs are much better at shooting down bombs than flak is, since the AoE from flak guns doesn't kill bombs.  Just look at Forced Entry in AoA. Even on Insane the warships hardly need any cover(aside from killing them beam cannons), your biggest problem are the Solace and the Sanctuary.
And even if beams are too advanced, maybe they can at least reverse engineer STerPulses. It has more range and 70% higher DPS than the UEF Point Defense Turrets. The shots also travel faster, making it easier to hit targets at maximum range.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 23, 2014, 08:52:20 am
The UEF Point Defense Turret (the Khatvanga) is already better at shooting down bombs than STerPulse and AAA.  UEF ships don't really need much help with point defense.  Not in terms of weapons, anyway.  Burst Flak and Point Defense Turret are both very good weapons.

And something you should note: the GTVA does fit STerPulse on a few Capella-era ships, but it's still not commonplace and it isn't the easiest thing to do.  Why would the UEF would have an easier time of it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 24, 2014, 11:19:44 am
Less resupply needed long term. Less effective to implement short term.


Buntuscum stick to what they're good at :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 24, 2014, 07:50:01 pm
I always hoped to see the UEF turn up with shivanised beams, since the forward part of the Lucifer ended up in Sol and they've backengineered the shield tech.
But then again, we would've seen this already, because a single ship with Lucifer grade beams would've been deployed early on in the war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on December 24, 2014, 08:19:06 pm
You mean the part with two beam cannons that exploded themselves after exploding the second time?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 24, 2014, 09:20:11 pm
Didn't everything simply explodes in the vid?
Haven't seen it in a long time, just thought it would be possible, because of the Custos X shields.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: azile0 on December 24, 2014, 09:26:24 pm
Unfortunately there wasn't much left of Lucy after it popped. In the ending scene of FS1 we see it get cut in half, but that front half does explode and the beams cannons are wrecked.

Additionally, something  I just remembered. When you encounter Al'Fadil's squad in WiH, what's the context there? Unfortunately I didn't make the connection until just now so I can't remember much about that mission. Do we ever find out why he wanted that transport?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on December 24, 2014, 09:36:39 pm
AlF was a PoW in that ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: azile0 on December 24, 2014, 09:58:57 pm
Oh, I remember now. I thought he was in space trying to capture it (shows how closely I was paying attention) and now i feel bad for re-playing the mission until I was able to beat it without getting my ass kicked.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 25, 2014, 04:41:26 am

It exploded TWICE. I don't think anyone's going to do much research on that wreck.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aslandor11 on December 30, 2014, 02:23:03 pm
Hi guys. I have been lurking on the Blue Planet boards for a few months now, and after playing (and replaying) WiH, I have been blown away. Everything, from mission difficulty to music, is spot on and I cannot think of a way the team could have done better. I feel that retail Freespace 2 was filled with fun, engaging missions but lacked story line or character development. BP totally outdoes retail by providing more unique gameplay, greater immersion, an indepth story, and characters that feel real. My sincere thanks to every member of the team for creating a work of art that keeps drawing me back.

That said, I have a few questions (why can't we put blue beams on deimoses :p )
1) Why was the 14th BG so small? After looking at the GTVA orbat, the 15th BG is significantly larger, with quite a few deimos and diomedes corvettes supplementing the Atreus, Imp, and Serkr. Was the 14th at full strength, and if not, why was the 15th not sent as the Sol Expeditionary force?

2) Do SSMs care about the limits of the Atreus's missile batteries? In Collateral Damage, we see the Akula cut to pieces by 36(?) Eos SSMs, but the all of the launchers on the Atreus are only capable of 12 warheads every 30 seconds.

3) Why is there the Bellerophon class corvette? It occupies almost the same role as the chimera, with a slight increase of warship firepower with a slight decrease in anti-fighter power. It seems that there is no real need to commission a warship that is as similar as an already existing one. (I am assuming that the Chimera came first, based on the MBlue techroom description)

4) What is stopping the UEF from replacing the gauss cannons on the Karuna to the mass drivers? It seems that it would be a tactical step down from gauss, but the sheer killing power of the mass driver seems like it would be worth the drop in range and subsystem damage. The techroom seems to suggest that the mass driver is simply a gauss with a stronger penetrator and a larger explosive. This retrofit would not work and the Narayana class for obvious reasons, but the size mass driver rounds compared to gauss rounds we see in mission from Karunas seem to suggest it would be possible.

5) Why do we see so many GTVA bombers? The bomber corps of the GTVA is often seen dropped into combat situations unescorted, with minimal support. This is pretty dumb, as often times bombers do not even get to launch their warheads before the get thrashed by UEF fighters. In Delenda Est, it is pretty easy to intercept all of the bombers before their cyclops even exit the missile bays. The Indus still takes a lot of damage, almost all of it from the Maxims the bombers are carrying. Why don't we see more devoted Maxim strikes, such as the ones in Aristeia, replace the hordes of flunky bombers the GTVA throws at the UEF?

6) Is the Sanctus refit even that effective? The Sanctus's anti-warship weakness has been done to death on this forum, but looking at the refit, it doesn't seem to improve that much. We see the Warhammers replaced by really weak Hydra launchers, and the Sanctus's forward mass drivers replaced by gauss cannons. Granted, the AA potential of the Sanctus goes through the roof with 6 PDs and 6 Burst Flaks, but it seems that the core problems with the Sanctus are left unaddressed.

7) Why do we still see Myrmidons flying in the Sol Theater? We know they are out of production, but can't we just ship the Myrmidons from all of the Sol Battlegroups and replace them with Perseus fighters from border systems? It is clear that they are easy to kill in just about anything, and wasting resources replacing them when they get destroyed must be costly.

8) How many GTVA ships have sprint drives? I know the Atreus, Carthage, and Serkr have them, but does the Imp and the Hood have sprint drives? Are there various kinds of sprint drives? The Atreus bugs out almost as soon as it is engaged in Darkest Hour, very shortly after it enters. The Carthage also jumps within 2 minutes of its entrance in Pawns. In Collateral damage however, Serkr waits around and gets attacked by a few gunships and bombers before it jumps. Why did it wait around?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 30, 2014, 08:15:36 pm
I'm (obviously) not on the BP team, but I think I can address at least one point:

The Atreus bugs out almost as soon as it is engaged in Darkest Hour, very shortly after it enters. The Carthage also jumps within 2 minutes of its entrance in Pawns. In Collateral damage however, Serkr waits around and gets attacked by a few gunships and bombers before it jumps. Why did it wait around?
How fast the sprint drive charges depends on how much energy the ship is diverting to other things, like weapons or ECM. The Atreus in Darkest Hour and the Carthage in Pawns aren't spending energy on weapons; they're putting it straight into getting the ability to jump back out ASAP (this is also why the Atreus doesn't beam the station before running for it). In Collateral Damage, Serkr had just fired their frontal beams; they weren't focused solely on jumping back out. That's why it took them more time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 30, 2014, 09:32:20 pm
Hi guys. I have been lurking on the Blue Planet boards for a few months now, and after playing (and replaying) WiH, I have been blown away. Everything, from mission difficulty to music, is spot on and I cannot think of a way the team could have done better. I feel that retail Freespace 2 was filled with fun, engaging missions but lacked story line or character development. BP totally outdoes retail by providing more unique gameplay, greater immersion, an indepth story, and characters that feel real. My sincere thanks to every member of the team for creating a work of art that keeps drawing me back.

That said, I have a few questions (why can't we put blue beams on deimoses :p )
This question was probably a joke, but I'll answer it anyway.  Power requirements.  Blue beams require a lot more power than green beams do, and Capella era ships (to say nothing of Great War ones) just don't have the power grids to handle them.


Quote
1) Why was the 14th BG so small? After looking at the GTVA orbat, the 15th BG is significantly larger, with quite a few deimos and diomedes corvettes supplementing the Atreus, Imp, and Serkr. Was the 14th at full strength, and if not, why was the 15th not sent as the Sol Expeditionary force?
The plan the 14th BG was supposed to carry out didn't require them to really fight a war at all.  You can read more about it in the techroom.  The short version is that they were supposed to enter the system under a flag of peace, take orbital bombardment positions over Earth, then demand UEF surrender.  That plan was (obviously) scrapped when Admiral Bei defected.

Quote
2) Do SSMs care about the limits of the Atreus's missile batteries? In Collateral Damage, we see the Akula cut to pieces by 36(?) Eos SSMs, but the all of the launchers on the Atreus are only capable of 12 warheads every 30 seconds.
The Atreus has 48 individual torpedo tubes.  They just take a long time to reload and it doesn't fire a full volley as a result.  There's also the Imperieuse, which has another 16 tubes.

Quote
3) Why is there the Bellerophon class corvette? It occupies almost the same role as the chimera, with a slight increase of warship firepower with a slight decrease in anti-fighter power. It seems that there is no real need to commission a warship that is as similar as an already existing one. (I am assuming that the Chimera came first, based on the MBlue techroom description)
The Bellerophon is a lot tougher than the Chimera is, and it has much more comprehensive command and control systems.  It's specifically meant to be a flotilla leader.

Quote
4) What is stopping the UEF from replacing the gauss cannons on the Karuna to the mass drivers? It seems that it would be a tactical step down from gauss, but the sheer killing power of the mass driver seems like it would be worth the drop in range and subsystem damage. The techroom seems to suggest that the mass driver is simply a gauss with a stronger penetrator and a larger explosive. This retrofit would not work and the Narayana class for obvious reasons, but the size mass driver rounds compared to gauss rounds we see in mission from Karunas seem to suggest it would be possible.
  Gauss cannons are really good at killing subsystems.  They're nice to have.  Not really sure the UEF would want to replace them.

Quote
5) Why do we see so many GTVA bombers? The bomber corps of the GTVA is often seen dropped into combat situations unescorted, with minimal support. This is pretty dumb, as often times bombers do not even get to launch their warheads before the get thrashed by UEF fighters. In Delenda Est, it is pretty easy to intercept all of the bombers before their cyclops even exit the missile bays. The Indus still takes a lot of damage, almost all of it from the Maxims the bombers are carrying. Why don't we see more devoted Maxim strikes, such as the ones in Aristeia, replace the hordes of flunky bombers the GTVA throws at the UEF?
This is a failing the GTVA is aware of.  Do note that in Delenda Est, Lopez didn't really have many options.  She threw the Carthage's entire air wing at the Wargods.


Quote
6) Is the Sanctus refit even that effective? The Sanctus's anti-warship weakness has been done to death on this forum, but looking at the refit, it doesn't seem to improve that much. We see the Warhammers replaced by really weak Hydra launchers, and the Sanctus's forward mass drivers replaced by gauss cannons. Granted, the AA potential of the Sanctus goes through the roof with 6 PDs and 6 Burst Flaks, but it seems that the core problems with the Sanctus are left unaddressed.
The Sanctus is a cruiser killer.  The refit can handle a Deimos, but it rips GTVA cruisers to pieces.  It's a good counter to GTVA raiders.


Quote
7) Why do we still see Myrmidons flying in the Sol Theater? We know they are out of production, but can't we just ship the Myrmidons from all of the Sol Battlegroups and replace them with Perseus fighters from border systems? It is clear that they are easy to kill in just about anything, and wasting resources replacing them when they get destroyed must be costly.
They're used because they're available.  If you ship in a Perseus to replace a Myrmidon, that's something else you're not shipping in instead.  There's a finite amount of materiel the GTVA logistics train can move.


Quote
8) How many GTVA ships have sprint drives? I know the Atreus, Carthage, and Serkr have them, but does the Imp and the Hood have sprint drives? Are there various kinds of sprint drives? The Atreus bugs out almost as soon as it is engaged in Darkest Hour, very shortly after it enters. The Carthage also jumps within 2 minutes of its entrance in Pawns. In Collateral damage however, Serkr waits around and gets attacked by a few gunships and bombers before it jumps. Why did it wait around?
AdmiralRalwood isn't wrong about this, but I'm pretty sure Serkr doesn't take much longer to leave in Collateral Damage than the Atreus does in Darkest Hour or the Carthage does in Pawns On a Board of Bone.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on December 31, 2014, 04:01:05 am
There are also two places of ingame chatter that migth explain it. The first in AoA when the pilots comment about the engineer of the Duke having to be a genius for keeping the jumpdrives operable under such strain. That would indicate that a skilled deck-crew can get more performance out of their ship and/or reduce the risk of catastrophic equipment failure by quite a bit margin.

With the Atreus being the Flagship I'm sure that the best personel of the entire battlegroup would be stationed on her.

Then there's also what the people say in Darkest Hour. There they say that Steele is taking a very high risk with the way he jumps the Atreus around. Maybe Serkr were just not riding their hardware as close to it's limits as the Atreus did. Considering how they shredded the gunships they weren't really in that much of a rush to bug out anyway, so no need to risk burning out their drives or something similar in their situation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 31, 2014, 07:35:33 am
Don't forget the GVD Shepseskaf, which had a dedicated secondary reactor ready to flash the jump drive so it could leave.
Or was it a reactor normaly used to power a beam cannon?
Since we don't see much of the Vasudans I have asked myself many times: After the disater with the Typhoons and beams, are ships like the Hatshepsut designed with future upgrades in mind or do the Zods simply say "Hey, our economy is still up and running, we simply build new ships"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on December 31, 2014, 03:19:04 pm
The Typhon's difficulty in mounting beam weapons is because Vasudan beams were not designed with retrofits in mind.  Terran beams were, which is why they're so much weaker.  If the GTVA had tried throwing BVas and VSlash onto an Orion, they'd have run into the same kind of difficulties.

Ships are always designed with upgrades in mind, there's just a limit to how much you can upgrade a ship before the spaceframe's age just makes it unfeasible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 01, 2015, 01:45:03 am
There's also the possibility of a discovery that enacts a full paradigm-shift in terms of ship capabilities and building.  Beams are absolutely, unarguably one of these shifts.  It's utterly laughable to think that the Orion's original engineers could have conceived of mounting massive beam cannons as a potential future update.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 01, 2015, 04:49:21 pm
Interesting point...
I wish we would know more about the Zods in the BP timeframe...
If it is true, that in the next release you play as a Vasudan, I'll be a happy man :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 01, 2015, 10:17:37 pm
lol, not the next release. If we're lucky BP3 will happen someday. BP2 4 & 5 will probably still be UEF.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: James Razor on January 02, 2015, 02:35:19 pm
As we have a little bit of a tech discussion here, i wanted to ask some questions myself.

During the 2nd Incursion, the GTVA developed a lot of advanced weapons. Kaysers, Prometheus S, Maxim as an example. Why didnt they mount these weapons on their cap ships? The Maxims greatest weakness for example is its power drain.

If i take a Fenris for example, remove that lousy joke of a beam and put there quad or hexa or even octa Maxims, wouldnt that be more effective? With even less power drain to its system? I mean, they might be old, but i still think that a cruiser reactor has more output than even a more modern fighter.

And now just think of the Orion or similar ships that have maxims or prometheus banks in place of the blobb turrests. That would greatly enhance their firepower and anti-figher screen. The Maxim even has about the same range as their green beams.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FIZ on January 02, 2015, 03:15:27 pm
Balance would be one reason.  Also engine limitations, I believe that the original code had to limit to what a PC at the time could handle.  (I believe the limit for projectiles still exists, even though it is much improved.)

Fire up FRED2 and replace all blobs with Morning Stars on any hostile capital ship for a lark.  Or sentry guns.

Also beams had a rule of cool going for them, even if it was determined later to be lackluster on a Fenris.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 02, 2015, 04:43:13 pm
Balance would be one reason.
The biggest reason, really. The Maxim is a horribly overpowered weapon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 03, 2015, 08:15:57 am
I'm also going to mention that (imo) fighter weapons projectiles + muzzle flash look silly when fired from capship turrets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SmashMonkey on January 05, 2015, 01:35:08 am
Interesting point...
I wish we would know more about the Zods in the BP timeframe...
If it is true, that in the next release you play as a Vasudan, I'll be a happy man :D

Man, I thought that one of the best parts of BP2 was in Act 3 where you finally get to shoot up the Vasudans!

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on January 05, 2015, 09:06:01 pm
I'm also going to mention that (imo) fighter weapons projectiles + muzzle flash look silly when fired from capship turrets.
I would assume that capships would mount their own capship variants.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on January 06, 2015, 04:37:14 am
I'm also going to mention that (imo) fighter weapons projectiles + muzzle flash look silly when fired from capship turrets.
I would assume that capships would mount their own capship variants.
That's what I did in my mod :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on January 06, 2015, 05:55:08 pm
I'm also going to mention that (imo) fighter weapons projectiles + muzzle flash look silly when fired from capship turrets.
I would assume that capships would mount their own capship variants.

Congratulations on reinventing the Terran Blob turret.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: qwadtep on January 06, 2015, 07:18:31 pm
I'm also going to mention that (imo) fighter weapons projectiles + muzzle flash look silly when fired from capship turrets.
I would assume that capships would mount their own capship variants.

Congratulations on reinventing the Terran Blob turret.
A blob turret with the muzzle velocity and rate of fire of the Maxim? How horrifying.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrickMagnet on January 07, 2015, 10:17:42 am
and thus alpha one spotted a human centipede-esque row of fat green lasers piercing the hull of the sj sathanas

fenris op

gg no re
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on January 07, 2015, 11:35:37 am
The best way to fix blob turrets would be to up their speed, damage and fire rate then compensate for the now dead-eye accuracy against fighters with an inherent inaccuracy of a few degrees.

Its called the pulse cannon in BP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tomimaki on February 08, 2015, 06:53:43 pm
Link to bp2-core has changed?
Now is http://fsblueplanet.creshal.de/releases/bp2-core.7z
which is weird...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SmashMonkey on February 18, 2015, 06:45:05 am
Don't know if this has been brought up before, but how has the GTA been politically faring throughout the conflict? The only info we get is a snippet from one of the Dreamscapes that half of the GTA is against the war while the other half is for the war.

But with anti-Vasudan xenophobia that's been building up within the GTA, Vasudan logistical support in Sol must have angered large segments of the GTA population. And to add to that, hasn't the war in Sol heavily depleted their already broken economy?






Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on February 18, 2015, 07:31:12 am
Everytime I watch the Artemis Station cutscene I admire the CO of the Nelson... to charge a line of TEI ships with only three Sanctusi(?) as support...that man has balls...and is a loyal officer.
Oh, and who voices Artemis Station and the Cormorant? Well done.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Italianmoose on February 18, 2015, 09:15:04 am
Don't know if this has been brought up before, but how has the GTA been politically faring throughout the conflict? The only info we get is a snippet from one of the Dreamscapes that half of the GTA is against the war while the other half is for the war.

But with anti-Vasudan xenophobia that's been building up within the GTA, Vasudan logistical support in Sol must have angered large segments of the GTA population. And to add to that, hasn't the war in Sol heavily depleted their already broken economy?

Is this in addition to the new fluff in the tech room? (which is awesome, by the way)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 18, 2015, 04:49:35 pm
Everytime I watch the Artemis Station cutscene I admire the CO of the Nelson... to charge a line of TEI ships with only three Sanctusi(?) as support...that man has balls...and is a loyal officer.
Oh, and who voices Artemis Station and the Cormorant? Well done.
According to the old VA killboard, both Artemis Station and the Cormorant are voiced by Jordan Scherer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Azrael15 on March 10, 2015, 02:39:07 am
Is there any chance that we'll get a release of the Freedom Fighters remix in this video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr4kF3h9jvU

I'm really digging it, even if I wasn't fond of it initially.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: procdrone on March 10, 2015, 06:32:24 am
That's a remix...?

I was always convinced that they use the original...

confused o.o
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 10, 2015, 09:31:13 am
Everytime I watch the Artemis Station cutscene I admire the CO of the Nelson... to charge a line of TEI ships with only three Sanctusi(?) as support...that man has balls...and is a loyal officer.

It's just as important to remember that his charge accomplished absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on March 10, 2015, 10:13:38 am
It's just as important to remember that his charge accomplished absolutely nothing.

It may have succeeded in getting a few more people off the station.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: procdrone on March 10, 2015, 11:19:49 am
Well, depends how we count civilian lifes against military lifes.

Im sure there was much more people on board those ships, then on board the station... not considering economical and tactical loss of 3 cruisers and a frigate.

But yeah, those were civilians, so they have a priority.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on March 10, 2015, 12:08:33 pm
That's a remix...?

I was always convinced that they use the original...

confused o.o

The ingame cutscene has the original, but the linked trailer has a remix that (as far as I know) Darius made himself.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Frak_Tastic on March 10, 2015, 03:11:31 pm
The Nelson's charge was a waste of lives and manpower.  If he had been one of my commanders I would have court marshaled him for committing to a hopeless battle and losing precious ships that won't be replaced.  He would have lost his rank and his ability to command permanently (well, for as long as the UEF survives anyways).

To fight a delaying action (the only real alternative) I would have deployed skirmishers and harassment attacks, but committing major UEF capitol assets in a pathetic frontal assault was just plain stupidity.  Dropping bombers in to hit engines and irritate the GTVA is about all the UEF could do.

Also, why did the GTVA deploy so far from the station?  If they wanted Artemis Station intact, I'd just jump within weapons range with overwhelming firepower and order them to surrender.  By coming in slow and from max detection range just guarantees a chance for the defenders to fry everything of importance on the station.

Granted it's a cool scene and it dramatizes what non-mil people think 'honorable' people do in battle, but in the end there is no good way to die.   Nelson's CO was an idiot and a bad commander.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 10, 2015, 03:50:55 pm
It's hard to sue dead people, isn't it? Also, I don't remember seeing a successful bomber strike against any of the TEI destroyers in BP, ever. Not for lack of trying though, but the anti-fighter beams and TerPulses just shred any small craft that get in range.
And BP is pretty good at demonstrating that "honour" isn't something that wins wars, especially in act 3.
Besides, who says they wanted the station intact? I'd say that the mere threat of blowing it up allowed them to take down Buntu capships which are more important than whatever equipment and logs they had on that station. And Steele might have even predicted pointless heroics from people who haven't faced real war for an entire generation.

And that same kind of false heroism you'd usually see in movies is what got Carthage and her escort fleet killed/captured. Though it is kinda interesting how the story keeps going on about tragic loss of life and camaraderie, but in actual gameplay  wingmen are either expendable or invulnerable. Disabling beams or killing bombers is always a higher priority than helping Beta 3 who's crying about a bogey on his tail. Beta 3 getting blown up won't fail you the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on March 10, 2015, 04:49:24 pm
The outcome of battles are defined by what happens before. Unfortunately, we don't know exactly what came before the Nelson's charge. Maybe the Atreus jumped in next to another station and successfully destroyed it. The TEV battlegroup was then working its way over to Artemis station. Maybe the Nelson, having seen the total destruction of one installation was doing the only thing it could to delay the TEVs so the evacuation of Artemis could be as complete as possible. Court marshaling the commander of the Nelson (assuming he survived) based entirely on the very limited view from the cutscene is ridiculous.

Has anyone considered what the Cormorant was doing within beam range of the Atreus, and a Diomedes, and a Chimera, and (I think) a Hyperion? I'm frankly surprised she lasted half as long as she did before exploding.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on March 10, 2015, 05:26:16 pm
I'm pretty sure it was the case that the CO of the Nelson (Captain Mence) disobeyed orders to destroy Artemis station himself (i.e. in order to deny its resources to the GTVA), in a similar situation to what Captain Gennedy did to Simak station (i.e The Blade Itself). In that case Mence probably considered a suicidal charge to be his only way out, unable to kill UEF civilians, but facing a court marshal and disgrace if he didn't follow orders.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: procdrone on March 10, 2015, 05:41:20 pm
About GTVA fleet coming in from afar... maybe gas giant gravity well prevents from warping in close? Look, that Nelson jumps in rather far from them already.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on March 10, 2015, 06:38:59 pm
Well, depends how we count civilian lifes against military lifes.

Im sure there was much more people on board those ships, then on board the station... not considering economical and tactical loss of 3 cruisers and a frigate.

But yeah, those were civilians, so they have a priority.

I wouldn't be so sure; there's no reason to think that there aren't many more lives onboard the station.

It's just as important to remember that his charge accomplished absolutely nothing.

It may have succeeded in getting a few more people off the station.

Which would have counted for a lot more if the station had self destructed as expected, but it did not. It's likely the civilian station was taken with few or no casualties. The charge was a waste.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 10, 2015, 07:10:00 pm
Sometimes people decide that they need to put their principles first.

Sometimes people decide their principles have to bend in the name of victory.

History gets to argue who chose best.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on March 10, 2015, 10:41:44 pm
The Freedom Fighters remix is one from Skyworld

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMauJmQHsns
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Azrael15 on March 12, 2015, 08:47:24 am
Thanks, Darius. Weirdly enough, I own Skyworld but don't have that track.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 12, 2015, 12:20:29 pm
That's the kind of charge you'd make against Shivans, or some other omnicidal race that you know won't even bother with trying to capture the station or minimise civilian casualties. Against anything else it's just a waste of lives. Sure, the GTVA killed a few civilians here and there, but it's not like they're actively trying to exterminate the people of Sol.
The way I see it, the supposedly "brutal and hellsih" war in Sol is nothing compared to the 2nd Shivan incursion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 12, 2015, 12:23:55 pm
There were probably more civilians in the line of fire during the Fall of Jupiter alone than during the entire Second Incursion (maybe inclusive the NTF uprising? not sure on that). Also maaaaybe more total human combatants, though I'd have to check the math.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on March 13, 2015, 04:25:45 am
Right. The Shivans got as far as Capella in FS2. That was the only inhabited system they reached, and we know that almost the entire colony was evacuated before the sun went pear-shaped.

The NTF Rebellion would have caused more civilian casualties than the Shivans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 13, 2015, 05:59:05 am
You sure about that? I mean, you don't directly see much of it but the player is told through the command briefings that not everyone actually made it when evacuating contested systems. Also, in the first incursion they glassed Vasuda Prime, that's more civilian casualties than pretty much anything the GTVA can do.
And why exactly would human combatants matter more than human and Vasudan ones? And I'm pretty sure that just counting the lives on all the destroyers and the Collosus will get you more human combatants than the 7 Tev and 3 Buntu destroyers in Sol.

You may be right though, the Shivans really didn't do that much damage to civilians in the 2nd incursion, not for lack of trying though. But still, that doesn't change the fact that the GTVA doesn't randomly go around glassing planets and blowing up civilian stations and refugee convoys for the lulz. They're just soldiers, not some hellish force that you'd give up 8000 lives just to delay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrickMagnet on March 13, 2015, 07:35:34 am
the tev's originally sent probes and messages through the portal talking of peace, then arrived not long with a full fleet of firepower declaring war

would you really trust them not to butcher anything they came into contact with?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 13, 2015, 11:37:11 am
Yes, of course I would. False peace messages leading to war are hardly anything new in human history, and most conquests don't end in complete genocide. Besides, the very first thing the Tevs tried to do was force a surrender. If they were omnicidial they'd just charge in and start beaming everything to death and glassing every planet they secure the orbit of. It's not like they warped in and instantly went full Sath on the Renjain.
It should be pretty obvious 18 months in that they don't plan on doing **** like ethnic cleansing of all the Buntus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on March 13, 2015, 12:33:43 pm
It should be pretty obvious 18 months in that they don't plan on doing **** like ethnic cleansing of all the Buntus.
Well, that would be rather impossible given that Ubuntu is not an ethnic group, but we can't actually state categorically that no cleansing is planned without knowing the specifics of Contingency MORPHEUS.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TrickMagnet on March 13, 2015, 02:20:09 pm
maybe it's just me, but i'm not exactly willing to wait around for the first time of an instance to happen to prepare against it. can't imagine i'll feel great about potentially sacrificing tens of thousands of people because "oh well uh i didn't think they were going to murder 20,000 innocent people with stray beam fire! won't happen again guys!!"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 13, 2015, 02:48:56 pm
Prepare against it? That was an obvious suicide run. And "Stray beam fire", really? Installations can take more punishement than one stray beam, unless they're already heavily damaged. Sure, a stray beam could hit the station and kill a couple hundred people but that's still no reason to fling 3 capships with crew on board into certain death. That in itself was sacrificing around 8000 lives because he wanted to feel like a hero.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on March 13, 2015, 02:51:58 pm
Yes. Exactly. It's tragic, isn't it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on March 13, 2015, 02:57:16 pm
Huh, first time I've heard that character criticized.

Was he briefed on the fact that the station wasn't going to self destruct?  Did the crew of the station make the destruction of those ships pointless by refusing the scorched earth orders when the time came?  Or did he just die like a dumbass?

I can't recall if we were told that or not.


e:  Okay I tried three times to make this not sound sarcastic, ideally this is good enough
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on March 13, 2015, 03:04:14 pm
Yes, of course I would. False peace messages leading to war are hardly anything new in human history, and most conquests don't end in complete genocide. Besides, the very first thing the Tevs tried to do was force a surrender. If they were omnicidial they'd just charge in and start beaming everything to death and glassing every planet they secure the orbit of. It's not like they warped in and instantly went full Sath on the Renjain.
It should be pretty obvious 18 months in that they don't plan on doing **** like ethnic cleansing of all the Buntus.
Except we learn during Universal Truth that MORPHEUS is about wiping out all Nagari sensitives. Considering that genocide encompasses destruction in part, yes; Morpheus is literally a plan to commit genocide.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on March 13, 2015, 03:15:42 pm
Unless there are a lot more nagari sensitives than I thought, it seems like genocide may be rather too dramatic a term for the situation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on March 13, 2015, 03:19:36 pm
Sure, but at that point they haven't gone through with it or done anything to make Nelson think they have genocidal intentions. I'm pretty sure he knew that the station wouldn't self-destruct before they're fully evacuated so he's basically throwing a lot of lives and 3 ships away to deny them that station(in his mind).
Does that really sound like a trade that's worth it, especially considering the GTVA are the ones with more ships in reserve and a better production lines? The UEF really can't afford to sacrifice even a single Karuna, even if it's to deny the Tevs a station that could be used as a staging point.

If the UEF really did plan to blow up the station along with the civilians who didn't make it out then what the hell is he doing sacrificing his life for them? Being captured by the GTVA sounds like a better fate than being blown to bits tbh.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on March 13, 2015, 03:29:48 pm
If you assume them exploding is a certainty, then it makes sense to buy them evac time.  Potentially he could have underestimated the effectiveness of their scorched earth protocols.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Scotty on March 13, 2015, 04:19:39 pm
Except we learn during Universal Truth that MORPHEUS is about wiping out all Nagari sensitives. Considering that genocide encompasses destruction in part, yes; Morpheus is literally a plan to commit genocide.

I do not remember this at all.  Can you quote when?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on March 13, 2015, 05:29:42 pm
Quote from: Ken
This war is full of hidden purposes. The most secret element of the Alliance invasion strategy is Contingency Morpheus: their plan to purge Vishnan-compromised elements from human society. The Elders are their prime target.
Not quite "kill all Nagari-sensitives". Even if we take it to mean that (or even worse, killing everyone influenced by Ubuntu as "Vishnan-compromised"), that can't be the whole story, because we have GTVA assets in Laramis with MORPHEUS tasking (http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_Planet_Orders_of_Battle#10th_Fleet_--_Laramis).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on March 13, 2015, 06:51:22 pm
Sure, but at that point they haven't gone through with it or done anything to make Nelson think they have genocidal intentions. I'm pretty sure he knew that the station wouldn't self-destruct before they're fully evacuated so he's basically throwing a lot of lives and 3 ships away to deny them that station(in his mind).
Does that really sound like a trade that's worth it, especially considering the GTVA are the ones with more ships in reserve and a better production lines? The UEF really can't afford to sacrifice even a single Karuna, even if it's to deny the Tevs a station that could be used as a staging point.

If the UEF really did plan to blow up the station along with the civilians who didn't make it out then what the hell is he doing sacrificing his life for them? Being captured by the GTVA sounds like a better fate than being blown to bits tbh.

If you assume them exploding is a certainty, then it makes sense to buy them evac time.  Potentially he could have underestimated the effectiveness of their scorched earth protocols.

I'm practically certain that Mence was, in the event of scorched earth protocols failing, obligated to destroy Artemis himself.  Here's lines taken from 'The Blade Itself' which has a similar situation between Simak Station and the Katana + Altan Orde.

Quote
AO: Ivan! If this is Case Kodiak, then we can't allow an Arcadia to fall into Tev hands. They'd be able to run a whole destroyer group off it.
K: Simak Station, we have declared Case Kodiak. You must self destruct in the event of a hostile boarding. I don't like it, but this is a military imperative.
S: Negative, Katana. I cannot obey that order until every man, woman and child has been evacuated.
K: God DAMN it. That glorious, stubborn, short-sighted jackass. He won't do it.
KT: We have another way. We can force the Tevs to detonate the bomb if we disrupt their boarding operation. Then we jump clear.
AO: Then we have to. Either we destroy the station with our guns - a long shot at best - or we find another way to deny it to the Tevs.
KT: I've designated Simak Station as a hostile target. One way or another, we have to destroy it. God help us all.
(I'm hoping that's mostly in order, it's a copy/paste from the messages section of the .fs2, I didn't check the events to ensure that this exact conversation tree could occur in game)

I view Mence's charge as deliberate suicide as he was unwilling to destroy Artemis station himself as his orders (under Case Kodiak) clearly stated that he had to do. He was unwilling to compromise his principles and chose the only path he felt was left open to him, death in battle defending the UEF (sure, he was taking ~8000 of his fellow officers and crew with him, maybe he felt that they'd feel the same way that he did)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 04:05:32 pm
Bump for new release!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on November 03, 2015, 04:49:31 pm
**** yes I'm getting this right the hell now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on November 03, 2015, 04:56:35 pm
Yup, whatever plans I had for the next 2 days just went out the window. Congrats on the release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on November 03, 2015, 06:01:12 pm
Me Right Now:

(http://i.imgur.com/ri4opJa.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Azrael15 on November 03, 2015, 06:03:45 pm
Me Right Now:

(http://i.imgur.com/ri4opJa.jpg)

this but with download bars
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on November 03, 2015, 06:07:32 pm
BP is the only reason I have this internet

/s
(http://i.imgur.com/ih8KS2W.jpg)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on November 03, 2015, 07:02:31 pm
Congrats on the release :) I checked out the F3 techroom and found that I am having some weird rendering issues for all cockpits, where they look whitish/opaque, and that the overall framerate for the models is much lower (10-30) with the 3.73 nightly compared to 3.72 with the same model in the older BP (59-60). Just for the record, I didn't have the cockpit issue when I used 3.72 for the previous release; I used the 3.73 build for the old release and had the same issue with framerate drops and weird cockpits. I won't be able to post a debug log and screenshots for a while. Is anyone else having these issues?

On another note, I really like the new menu layout and the new music for WiH part 1. Can't wait to play it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 07:20:09 pm
Oh, ****. Do these builds have shadows and deferred lighting? Turn those off if possible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 03, 2015, 07:27:04 pm
I know only the first two WIH acts have received voice acting, but Tenebra (Act 3) is supposed to be in the release package right?  I posted a link to the new download on another forum and someone said he/she couldn't find it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 03, 2015, 07:35:18 pm
Oh, ****. Do these builds have shadows and deferred lighting? Turn those off if possible.
Yes, Nightly builds since mid-May have the new renderer, and shadows and deferred lighting are enabled by default. So anybody having terrible FPS or graphical problems you didn't have with 3.7.2 Final, turn off shadows and (if that doesn't fix your issues by itself) deferred lighting and if you still have problems, please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.

I know only the first two WIH acts have received voice acting, but Tenebra (Act 3) is supposed to be in the release package right?  I posted a link to the new download on another forum and someone said he/she couldn't find it.
Make sure they know that Act 3's campaign is called "Blue Planet - War in Heaven 2"; lot of confusion about that when Act 3 was first released as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 07:42:01 pm
We need to update with a mod.ini or whatever that automatically disables deferred and shadows. They're way too expensive for our missions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EatThePath on November 03, 2015, 07:43:37 pm
Apologies if there's a bug report thread this should go in, but I've been hitting an issue. I've been playing UT1, both steele and normal version. Sometimes, but not always, the mission just stops at the fade-in for the second cutscene. I think it has to do with the game getting paused or losing focus any before that point, but I haven't been able to make it happen when I test that idea. It doesn't happen every time, but it's happened enough times to motivate me to post about it.

Also, are those forerunner glyphs I see for the vishnan weapon icons?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: god1like on November 03, 2015, 07:48:26 pm
I'm getting these errors:

game_settings.tbl(line 13):
Error: Missing required token: [#END]. Found [$Shield Pain Flash Factor: -1] instead.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>


game_settings.tbl(line 15):
Error: Missing required token: [#END]. Found [#SOUND SETTINGS] instead.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>

game_settings.tbl(line 16):
Error: Missing required token: [#END]. Found [$Default Sound Volume: 0.6] instead.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>

game_settings.tbl(line 17):
Error: Missing required token: [#END]. Found [$Default Music Volume: 0.3] instead.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>

game_settings.tbl(line 18):
Error: Missing required token: [#END]. Found [$Default Voice Volume: 1.0] instead.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2.exe! <no symbol>

also  14 warnings in game.

What's wrong? 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 03, 2015, 07:49:12 pm
What's wrong? 
You didn't follow the instructions; you're using 3.7.2 instead of a recent Nightly build.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 07:55:52 pm
Yep, the release post has instructions for what to check if you have a bunch of errors!

I am sad to hear that fade out bug is still around. If you can find a repro condition please let me know.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on November 03, 2015, 07:57:13 pm
Super excited about the new release. I'm just sad that something isn't quite working out for me. I'm not getting any models to show up properly. They are all transparent, except for any light sources (engine flares, navigation lights, etc.)

Here is my debug log:

http://pastebin.com/zQx1CtCd
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on November 03, 2015, 07:59:23 pm
Oh, ****. Do these builds have shadows and deferred lighting? Turn those off if possible.
Yes, Nightly builds since mid-May have the new renderer, and shadows and deferred lighting are enabled by default. So anybody having terrible FPS or graphical problems you didn't have with 3.7.2 Final, turn off shadows and (if that doesn't fix your issues by itself) deferred lighting and if you still have problems, please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.

I know only the first two WIH acts have received voice acting, but Tenebra (Act 3) is supposed to be in the release package right?  I posted a link to the new download on another forum and someone said he/she couldn't find it.
Make sure they know that Act 3's campaign is called "Blue Planet - War in Heaven 2"; lot of confusion about that when Act 3 was first released as well.

So I disabled both and it kind of fixed the issue with the cockpits but it definitely fixed the issue for the framerate. The new issue I have is that the right side of the Erebus (the model I chose to test for the framerate) looks distorted (hard to describe; I'll post a screenshot soon). I have attached my debug log to this post, and I also posted the error I got below, though I don't know if it is related.

Assert: !resize
File: gropengltexture.cpp
Line: 659

ntdll.dll! NtWaitForSingleObject + 12 bytes
KERNELBASE.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
KERNEL32.DLL! BaseThreadInitThunk + 36 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlSetCurrentTransaction + 212 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlSetCurrentTransaction + 159 bytes


[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 03, 2015, 07:59:53 pm
What's wrong? 
You didn't follow the instructions; you're using 3.7.2 instead of a recent Nightly build.
For some, the recent nightlys end up showing nothing but glowpoints :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on November 03, 2015, 08:01:00 pm
What's wrong? 
You didn't follow the instructions; you're using 3.7.2 instead of a recent Nightly build.
For some, the recent nightlys end up showing nothing but glowpoints :D

That sounds like my problem.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 03, 2015, 08:13:34 pm
What happens if you try -no_glsl ("Disable GLSL (Shader) Support" (http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Command-Line_Reference#-no_glsl))?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on November 03, 2015, 08:22:30 pm
What happens if you try -no_glsl ("Disable GLSL (Shader) Support" (http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Command-Line_Reference#-no_glsl))?

Ta-da! Fixed!

Thanks so much.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on November 03, 2015, 08:26:43 pm
I attached some screenshots to this post. The first attachment shows shows the Erebus distortion and the second shows the cockpit glass issue

EDIT: I figured out what was wrong with the Erebus. I messed with the model details in the in-game menu before I disabled the shadows and deferred lighting, so I just had to reset that. 

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 03, 2015, 08:37:41 pm
So I disabled both and it kind of fixed the issue with the cockpits but it definitely fixed the issue for the framerate. The new issue I have is that the right side of the Erebus (the model I chose to test for the framerate) looks distorted (hard to describe; I'll post a screenshot soon). I have attached my debug log to this post, and I also posted the error I got below, though I don't know if it is related.
Code: [Select]
Assert: !resize
File: gropengltexture.cpp
Line: 659

ntdll.dll! NtWaitForSingleObject + 12 bytes
KERNELBASE.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7-DEBUG.exe! <no symbol>
KERNEL32.DLL! BaseThreadInitThunk + 36 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlSetCurrentTransaction + 212 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlSetCurrentTransaction + 159 bytes

For this issue, can you try entering the options screen & setting Detail->3D Hardware Textures "dots" to maximum?

(you might have hit this issue (http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=3098))

We need to update with a mod.ini or whatever that automatically disables deferred and shadows. They're way too expensive for our missions.

Deferred rendering alone should increase framerate, I think it should only be disabled if it causes graphical issues.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: knossosfs2 on November 03, 2015, 08:50:13 pm
Yeah I had messed with that and the model detail before trying Ralwood's suggestion, so I set them both to maximum and I'm not having any issues except for the cockpit glass rendering.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 09:01:14 pm
My experience with deferred rendering has been a lot of slowdown and jitter when there are a lot of lights onscreen, but maybe that experience is obsolete!

I do think shadows are too expensive to be on by default.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mosshadow on November 03, 2015, 09:08:53 pm
I know only the first two WIH acts have received voice acting, but Tenebra (Act 3) is supposed to be in the release package right?  I posted a link to the new download on another forum and someone said he/she couldn't find it.

Oh Hey, that was me :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 03, 2015, 09:09:20 pm
My experience with deferred rendering has been a lot of slowdown and jitter when there are a lot of lights onscreen, but maybe that experience is obsolete!

I do think shadows are too expensive to be on by default.

I have noticed slowdown issues that I thought were particle related, but maybe it's lights? Worth checking into further!

Also agreed on shadows, they kill my system as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JerichoDeath on November 03, 2015, 10:18:26 pm
I don't know how dumb a question this is, but does the Freespace Open Installer just not work with this?
Cause it just fails all of the files instantly.

I can download them normally; I was just trying this first.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: deathspeed on November 03, 2015, 10:30:06 pm
Awesome work, BP team!!!  I am glad I have a broken leg and will be able to sit here and play all day tomorrow!

I don't know how dumb a question this is, but does the Freespace Open Installer just not work with this?
Cause it just fails all of the files instantly.

I can download them normally; I was just trying this first.

I had the same issue - I was excited that this was already picked up by the installer, but sad that all downloads failed.  At least it did create the folder in my freespace directory!


Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 03, 2015, 10:36:47 pm
Unfortunately Blueplanet Complete in the installer is broken. I can't see any obvious reason for this, it might be an installer bug?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 10:45:21 pm
Yes, it is broken in the installer, and this appears to be an installer-side problem. That's why the release post does not tell you to use the installer.

We'll add instructions to use the installer once it's live.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 03, 2015, 10:51:18 pm
Just on that, there could potentially be an incompatibility with the version of 7z used? Could be worth re-compressing say bpc-core.7z with an older version & seeing if the installer likes that?

Quote
14:37:05   niffiwan: Goober5000: the installer doesn't want to download blueplanet complete for some reason.
14:37:21   niffiwan: it can get the .txt file OK, but the data files at the same host won't download
14:37:39   niffiwan: a manual browser connection to the same url in the installer logs works
14:37:53   niffiwan: i.e. http://fsblueplanet.creshal.de/releases/bpc-core.7z
14:38:10   niffiwan: wait!
14:38:18   niffiwan: "Extraction failed due to unknown compression method!" ?
14:39:15   niffiwan: what's the installer got against .7z files?
14:41:24   Goober5000: niffiwan: yeah, The E PMmed me that BP was having trouble... though he didn't mention the .7z problem
14:41:42   niffiwan: yeah, just saw that in the STDOUT from the installer
14:41:42   Goober5000: I wonder if BP used a variant on the 7z compression... extra-dense maybe?
14:42:34   Goober5000: .7z files do work successfully, but they are extracted using a third-party plugin
14:43:07   niffiwan: hmm... the 7z version reported here is 0.4
14:43:16   niffiwan: the last bp2 .7z I have reported version 0.3
14:43:39   niffiwan: http://pastebin.com/8rq8FMMG
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on November 03, 2015, 10:57:46 pm
OMG, the techroom data entries. It will take hours to read through all the new entries. Read all the Vasudan stuff, will start the Shivans tomorrow. I took a quick peak at the Erebus entry and I almost fell out of my chair. Why you do this to me General?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 03, 2015, 11:34:17 pm
So what I do is create a folder in /FS2 called "bpcomplete" and then download the files in General Battuta's release post and put them in that folder?

Haven't done this in a while, sorry.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 03, 2015, 11:34:55 pm
Just download all the files in the release post and extract them to your FreeSpace 2 folder. It'll automatically create the bpcomplete folder.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Syntax Error on November 04, 2015, 01:05:08 am
Does anyone know how to shut up the Microsoft Anna voice in the tech room? I set the volume and unchecked the auto voice in wxLauncher but it still speaks its stupid robotic voice in the tech screen.  :mad:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 04, 2015, 01:19:41 am
In wxLauncher, go to the Basic Settings tab.  On the middle right you'll see a bunch of checkboxes.  Uncheck them all.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 04, 2015, 02:29:26 am
The issues with the FSOInstaller have been fixed. You can now download and install BP through it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 04, 2015, 03:19:37 am
Hi!

When I click on "Shipsave" (visible after Crtl+Shift+S) in the Techroom, the game crashes. Is this a known issue?

If not, I can provide Debug log ect when I get home from work, though I suppose it's no big deal if that's the only issue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 04, 2015, 04:40:58 am
IIRC, Shipsave is part of the screencam script (the part that saves player ship and position when you go into screenshot mode).  It's not actually a ship, so no, I don't think there's a way to fix that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 04, 2015, 05:49:18 am
-no_glsl did the trick... to know that such a minor thing almost made me crazy...
As a side not, thx for allowing me to be part of the beta test :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Commander Zane on November 04, 2015, 06:11:39 am
Those pulsar beams are hot. Just putting that out there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tehet on November 04, 2015, 07:31:45 am
Hi,
I just can't get this release to run, it crashes during the loading screen.
Here's the log file:
http://pastebin.com/idK75jZG
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 07:34:37 am
Hi,
I just can't get this release to run, it crashes during the loading screen.
Here's the log file:
http://pastebin.com/idK75jZG

Thanks for the log! That's weird. Checking it out right now.

(Just to be sure, you're playing on a regular build, not debug, right?)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tehet on November 04, 2015, 07:38:12 am
yes, i'm using a regular build to play
and thanks for the quick reply
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 07:46:38 am
Can you try a few other nightly builds? See if the crash goes away?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tehet on November 04, 2015, 09:24:52 am
still have the same crash with other nigthly builds
i tried other versions and different groups(SSE, NO-SSE) AVX didn't work at all
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 09:28:30 am
still have the same crash with other nigthly builds
i tried other versions and different groups(SSE, NO-SSE) AVX didn't work at all

Is it possible one of your VP files is corrupt? Can you run the FreeSpace Open Installer targeting your BP Complete install? It should repair any damage.

We are pushing an update very soon to the Core VP, buffing the Prometheus R to Subach levels and fixing a campaign-stopping bug (thanks Volition typos!) in FreeSpace Blue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 04, 2015, 09:43:47 am
Update has been pushed. Please rerun the FSOInstaller, or redownload bpc-core and bpc-fs2blue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tehet on November 04, 2015, 10:14:27 am
now it works
thank you GB
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JerichoDeath on November 04, 2015, 10:18:31 am
Holy-

Was that my voice I heard in the prologue scene?
I didn't even know...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 04, 2015, 01:25:56 pm
2 brief questions about using the installer to do this:

1-I know it's supposed to create a folder called 'bpcomplete.'  Will this process remove my current 'blueplanet' and 'blueplanet2' folders or will 'bpcomplete' be put in /FS2 alongside them?  One of the campaigns I'm playing uses original BP stuff and is dependent on the previous folders and I wouldn't want them eliminated for that reason. 


2-Would using the Installer get me the optional "Blue Planet Advanced Textures" link that's in the release post or would I have to download that manually?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 01:27:26 pm
It won't delete anything.

You can tell the Installer to get the advanced textures if you want.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 04, 2015, 03:46:15 pm
I tried to whip up a release thread for the steam forums (http://steamcommunity.com/app/273620/discussions/0/496880503059944346/), but I kinda suck at it, so I just copy-pasted Battuta's post over there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Col.Hornet on November 04, 2015, 05:18:21 pm
OK.

Downloaded, played a bit. Few things that I noticed so far.

I enjoyed the new gameplay features. Adds much more fun and possibilities :yes:

TEI beams.. well. When a pack of ship fire a full salvo then all I hear is a "Reaper Horn" from ME3 :P Cool thing but I think I liked the classic beam sounds better.

Is the build which is required a "final product"? I noticed that it affected the frame rate radically. Bunch of ships still lack LoD's especially new ones. A squad of Uriels and Durgas jump in and my frame rate drops from 60 to 20. Ship that tears the frame rate apart the most is of course the Erebus :P. I put my money on the greeblings and the overkill polycount. Game must be going crazy during the shadow calculations for that geometry.
 The Titan however runs very smoothly.

15 FPS during Post Meridian in the pinnacle of combat. Not a good sign. Although my PC is not an apex of computer market (intel i5 and 4GB's of RAM) the previous version of the mod was running smoothly and seamless. 


That's all I've noticed so far. I will play more when I get more free time.

HoRnet signing off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 04, 2015, 05:21:18 pm
Turn off shadows and deferred lighting. Those features are pretty expensive (shadows at least).

The build is a nightly build, and labeled as such.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Syntax Error on November 04, 2015, 08:04:46 pm
In wxLauncher, go to the Basic Settings tab.  On the middle right you'll see a bunch of checkboxes.  Uncheck them all.

That's the thing - they are unchecked, but the damn stupid Anna voice still persists.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 04, 2015, 08:16:28 pm
Uuuh, crap.  You could try setting the volume to minimum.  If that doesn't work, I don't know what to do.  Unchecking the checkboxes should work.  That's very odd.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 04, 2015, 08:16:57 pm
In wxLauncher, go to the Basic Settings tab.  On the middle right you'll see a bunch of checkboxes.  Uncheck them all.

That's the thing - they are unchecked, but the damn stupid Anna voice still persists.
Are you using wxLauncher 0.10.1? Have you tried running wxLauncher as administrator and checking/unchecking all those checkboxes again? If neither of those fix it, follow The E's instructions here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67950.msg1796804#msg1796804) to make sure the permissions on those registry entries are set correctly, then try again.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jeevesmeister on November 04, 2015, 10:40:00 pm
Hey guys! Big fan, love all the work you've done. Only played the first mission after getting it working and am blown away by the production value. How do I enable cockpit view? I thought I read/heard/saw that this was possible.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lowane on November 04, 2015, 10:41:45 pm
Finished the AoA and TBI portion of the release. Some quick thoughts so far:

- The new opening cutscene for AoA
Seeing the entire battle group in formation in high res was just stunningly beautiful.
- A Blue Planet....
 I absolutely loved starting the mission in the hangar and getting a great view of the entire battle group. Had a deeply immersing feel to it, and, as mentioned above, seeing a whole battle group of TEI ships in high res will never get old :P
- Aurora Flare Effect
Looks lovely, even though I was a bit confused when I played The Dragon Awakens. Took me a moment to figure out that those blue effects came from me and not the Shivans.
- Forced Entry seemed a bit easier than usual. I mean, I naturally failed it once because my Trebs somehow missed the Lilith's main beam, but beyond that it was relatively easy compared to my last playthrough, which was on medium instead of hard this time around. The Abel in particular seemed to die very quickly compared to last time, but maybe that's just my impression.
- Preserving the Balance also felt a bit off compared to last time. The Keeper and escorts seemed to take a while to fire their beams again after blowing up the first destroyer. The first one got pretty much obliterated instantly as before, but there seemed to be an usually long pause between the beam fire after that. Not a big issue, as they still shredded the Shivan within two minutes after blowing up the first destroyer or so, but, if I remember correctly, all destroyers were gone within a minute of each other. Again, maybe it's just my perception.
- Fallen Angel
Wow. I did not see that one coming. I mean, sure, I heard Bei yell out he feels the Lucifer, but I just took it as Bei being Bei. Then the first images started popping up.:lol: Needless to say, it made the mission much more difficult, but in a good way.
- Demons of the Past
 You should have seen the huge beam on my face when I found out who was talking in the final stages of the command briefing. Hello, Admiral.:cool:
- A Time for Heroes
A thousand thanks for allowing the option to skip the opening dialogue. :D I am horrible at flying bombers and using Helios warheads. Only took me two tries this time, but last time it took me around five, so the ability to skip the dialogue after my first fail was most welcome.
- Universal Truth
For god's sake, how many bombers were there? I would not be surprised to have nightmares tonight about never ending waves of Shivan bombers. I don't think I've ever felt so overwhelmed during any Freespace mission before. It seemed like at one point, there were 20+ Strike bombers, 10+ Fleet Bombers and another 8+ Heavy Bombers. Literally one of those "God damn it, I can't do everything"-type of missions where you expect to see the ship(s) you're supposed to protect blow up at any second. The Orestes and Temeraire were close calls, but thankfully TEI warships are killing machines in their own right.:D
- And then there's Journey's End. Really enjoyed the dialogue changes, because... Hello again, Admiral.:cool: It's more than that though. Mentioning Morpheus and Steele accusing Admiral Bei of being compromised was a nice touch considering future events.

Some other things:
- The Vishnan weaponry confused me a little, I must admit. By the end of Fallen Angel I had a rough idea of what each weapon does, but nothing more than that. Spamming that missile over and over and over again was fun though. Made disarming the destroyers in Keepers of Hell somewhat easy and it helped immensely when I could just spam them endlessly at the Lucifer in Fallen Angel.
- I cannot describe how much I love those dossier entries in the database. Fleshed out the characters even more and showed sides to them we hadn't seen before.
- Again, this may just be my perception, but was the Kayser altered in any way? It seemed to have less of it's usual two-shots-you're-dead feel and it definitely felt like it drained less energy.
- Whoever nerfed the repair abiltiy in TBI is evil. I had no idea it had been nerfed and promptly got obliterated by the two corvettes.:(
- Admiral Steele sounds awesome. It's a perfect mix of evil, cold and calculating without becoming melodramatic.

Will post more thoughts when I start the WiH portion tomorrow. Needed to restrain myself, otherwise I'd have played through the night.:D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 04, 2015, 11:42:01 pm
There's a thread with all(most) the balance changes, the tables have been carefully looked over by top analysts(underslept nerds) and the kayser hasn't been changed.
Might be nostalgia or superior AI which is better at dodging your shots so only 3-4 shots from a 6-shot salvo actually connect.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 05, 2015, 12:09:23 am
It did change.  It got the cycle flag.  It still drains the same amount of energy, but it only needs enough energy to fire one shot, whereas before, you needed enough energy to fire 4 or 8. 

Basically, the minimum energy needed to fire is lower, and it's not as good for snap shots.  But DPS hasn't changed.

If you want something good for snap shots, the Prom S is and has always been a better weapon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Syntax Error on November 05, 2015, 01:24:24 am
Was "Post Meridian" supposed to be so difficult? I don't remember failing the mission so many times as I have done now. The Indus just constantly gets gutted in every playthrough. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lowane on November 05, 2015, 06:58:35 am
It did change.  It got the cycle flag.  It still drains the same amount of energy, but it only needs enough energy to fire one shot, whereas before, you needed enough energy to fire 4 or 8. 

Basically, the minimum energy needed to fire is lower, and it's not as good for snap shots.  But DPS hasn't changed.

If you want something good for snap shots, the Prom S is and has always been a better weapon.

That explains it. Thanks for the answer. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 05, 2015, 08:03:22 am
Can't count how many times I died in Eyes of the Storm because being to close to the Zod transports is not healthy once the missile fly  :banghead:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 08:34:52 am
Was "Post Meridian" supposed to be so difficult? I don't remember failing the mission so many times as I have done now. The Indus just constantly gets gutted in every playthrough. :(

Make sure you're spotting for Epsilon missiles!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logrus on November 05, 2015, 11:21:59 am
Hi!
First of all I want to thank the team for excellent re-release!
However I am not able to enjoy it, for my ships are missing hull plates. See screenshot attached (ingame the colors look OK, they are messed only in screenshot for some reason).
My current setup:
FS2 Open 3.7.3 (oea25e7) SSE
AMD Radeon HD 7800 Series
Catalyst 13.1
Shadows disabled (can't even enter the techroom with those turned on).
Disabling the deferred lighting has no effect.

Please assist.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 05, 2015, 11:22:58 am
Please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logrus on November 05, 2015, 11:36:36 am
The log is attached.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 05, 2015, 11:40:45 am
What happens if you try -no_glsl ("Disable GLSL (Shader) Support" (http://hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Command-Line_Reference#-no_glsl))?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 05, 2015, 11:44:05 am
I would also recommend updating the GPU drivers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logrus on November 05, 2015, 11:45:46 am
With GLSL support disabled the textures are back. But the picture does not look too good overally now. Is it possible to make it work with the shaders somehow?
Attaching another log with NO SSE

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 05, 2015, 11:49:44 am
Then the only other possible option is to update your GPU drivers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logrus on November 05, 2015, 12:12:18 pm
Indeed updating drivers helped:) The shadows work too. Thank you!
I have another couple of irrelevant questions:
1. How do I enable the FPS counter?
2. What are Framebuffer Shockwaves?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 05, 2015, 12:17:58 pm
Indeed updating drivers helped:) The shadows work too. Thank you!
I have another couple of irrelevant questions:
1. How do I enable the FPS counter?
2. What are Framebuffer Shockwaves?
1. Should be somewhere at the bottom of the advanced settings tab in the launcher
2. Enabling framebuffer shockwaves adds a distortion effect to shockwaves
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Logrus on November 05, 2015, 01:27:32 pm
Are there any cockpit mods for AoA and WiH compatible with Complete edition?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Doko on November 05, 2015, 02:31:49 pm
Just a bug report:

I created a new pilot to play AoA, started reading the entries but found that "The rift I" and "The rift 2" are both available, marked as new but totally empty.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: scotch321 on November 05, 2015, 07:47:18 pm
Really looking forward to the updated release. Great work putting this all together! I finally got a chance to give it a try this evening, and I've used the FSO installer to make sure I have the latest release, but I'm still having trouble getting to any gameplay. I'm using a nightly build and I'm able to begin a campaign, but the loading screen before the initial cutscene ends up freezing up the game. I'm not really sure how to proceed. I've attached the logfile. Any suggestions? I have disabled the shaders and other flags as suggested in any previous posts. Thanks for checking this out.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 05, 2015, 07:49:28 pm
Wait a long time. It's caching models.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: scotch321 on November 05, 2015, 08:39:03 pm
That was it. Should have been more patient!  :)  Can't wait to get through this. So far, it looks awesome!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on November 06, 2015, 02:50:59 pm
Congrats team on the rerelease! I'm excited to replay these campaigns after so long.

Few questions: Did glowpoint lights get disabled? I don't see them anymore with deferred lighting on. Additionally, I see colored squares around glowpoint sprites that look like this |o|, as if the background for the sprite is somehow made visible. I remember seeing this same bug on the forums like a year ago. In the tech lab, things look fine.

Did the MediaVPs 2014 get updated since their original january release? The post was edited in october 2015, but nothing is said about how recent the files are.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Col.Hornet on November 06, 2015, 03:02:12 pm
Soooo.
Just finished the newest version of WiH1. first of all I would like to congratulate you all guys for all the new things you prepared for us. I'm not going write poems about how awesome it was. etc.. we have tones of this already. Nothing new to add here. The current content is a huuuggee improvement since the firs release :) What I admire the most is your attitude towards gameplay and mission design. You think of every little detail. Playing classic freespace campaigns and BP are totally different experiences. Shows how much potential this game has.

Ah. And the thing I enjoyed the most. New Mainhall music in WiH rocks :) Perfect choice.

I'd also like to congratulate the Team for the voice acting. It must have been a titanic struggle to put it all together. It added life to the whole narration. Many voices were chosen and acted perfectly like Brie, Simms (combat related lines during missions), Steele, Calder. However. I'm gonna throw a few sour pills to that sweetness. There were many things that I did not enjoy in WiH VA at all.

First fundamental question. Did all the VA participants played the game? (please don't lash me if that has been explained already. I don't have time to read and track every thread here :P)

-In many stages of various briefings the roles were acted/ read in such a rush (GTVA reporter?) that I had problems with understanding some of the sentences. "Captain Telfer" played it well. Balanced speeches like he was really talking to the pilots giving them proper instructions. Can't say the same thing about Simms. Too emotional.

-Indus tactial. Nice voice and tone. Really. But for an airline worker. Actress was talking about naval warfare stuff in the middle of a fierce firefight like she was talking to the liner passengers to buckle up before take-off. Definitely not a tone that I would expect from a professional military officer in a heat of battle.

And finally something that made me feel like I was slapped in the face with wet towel. These flirtatious talks between Laporte and Simms, especially in the middle of battle. Before the VA I simply didn't care about that, ignored it. But now it's been exaggerated. In a very infantile tone. Lines about "feeling a lady welcome" in "Pawns on the board of bone" was it's apex. I was near facepalming. In that part instead of pilots I was hearing a schoolgirl chatter. I had a feeling that my ears and eyes are receiving two different stories from two different worlds. Of course I don't blame the girls acting here :) That's a script thing. I never liked the way the relations between these two were designed. Not at all. "Sweetness overkill" in their voices doesn't help it either :/

< mah I almost feel guilty for saying this :sigh: I know. That was not a professional production with high qualified actors and I'm an as***e with exaggerated expectations ;)>

Overall I had a feeling that male roles were played much better (that's the reason I asked a question about everybody playing the game :)).
Boys put less unnecessary emotions into their parts and that makes these roles more convenient and um.."realistic".   


But for the record. It was a great pleasure to play this campaign once again with such amount of new content. The whole story became more lively and I must admit that I was drawn much deeper into the whole BP Universe. The whole adventure made me want more :)

Once again. Congratulations on successful release. To all of you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on November 06, 2015, 04:34:24 pm
The new release seems to be a little too much for that piece of junk I'm proud to call my computer. Aristeia was lagging hard as do all missions that involve more than a hand full of cap ships. Removing the advanced.vps didn't do too much. Any suggestions which features to switch off to make the thing run a little smoothier?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 06, 2015, 04:40:01 pm
Have you disabled shadows, or used a very recent nightly build?  If you have, you could also try disabled deferred rendering?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 06, 2015, 04:42:25 pm
Shadows, env mapping, soft particles, post processing, framebuffer shockwaves. If that still doesn't help try lowering the detail level in-game which will cause ships to switch to lower-poly models sooner.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 06, 2015, 06:20:19 pm
Turn down lighting to 4 or 3 pips, especially if you haven't turned off deferred rendering.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on November 06, 2015, 07:07:44 pm
Shadows is the big one. It eats FPS like mad.

Deferred lighting almost feels like it runs faster than default lighting, but could just be me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 06, 2015, 07:20:15 pm
Deferred is supposed to be faster as it batches up a bunch of object-renders and submits them in one OpenGL call rather than in individual calls, but some people have reported faster framerates from disabling it. Having said that adjusting the lighting pip per Phantom Hoovers post could be a better solution.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on November 06, 2015, 08:06:40 pm
Congrats! Major congrats on the new release! Great work to the whole team. :)

I played AoA: Director's Cut for all it was worth (I wasn't terribly interested in WiH, but I do want to know what happens next).

Can someone tell me - when they say "new story content and hidden secrets" for Age of Aquarius, does that mean that there's enough new stuff to be worth another playthrough? Like, since I really loved the original AoA, is this really a full enough "revamp" that I'd be missing something not to try it out? Does the same go for "Freespace Blue"?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 07, 2015, 03:52:58 am
I just had a funny experience with the Sathanas and the Phoenicia.

The invul script fired and made the Hecate immune to damage, but only after it lost it's engines. And so the Sath continued to happily beam it until it lost it's forward guns, leaving the disabled Phoenicia at 1% hull behind.

Any chance you could add a condition into the invul-sexpt to check if the engines are still online, or alternatively protect the engines from being destroyed? It makes little sense to have the Pheonicia survive at 1% hull and be beamed for 2 minutes without being destroyed or warping out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 07, 2015, 05:04:12 am
On the other hand, it sounds funny as hell :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 07, 2015, 05:41:41 am
Speaking of funny as Hell, I just played "High Noon" and after the Sath was dead, I tagged one of the remaining Maras.... and the Colossus splashed it with a BGreen.^^

Almost smoked me along with the enemy, but I somehow survived, despite being tumbled around like a ping-pong ball.  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 07, 2015, 05:43:05 am
Depending on the difficulty you were playing in, the player receives some degree of damage protection from friendly beams.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: snargitz on November 07, 2015, 07:54:54 am
Awesome release guys but did you have to release it this close to Fallout 4???  :D

Currently early in playing through War in Heaven act 1 and just want to let you know about a few possible problems that I have had so far.

It seems the GTCv Chimera is missing from the techroom entries, well at least is it for me.

In the mission "For the wrong reasons" bp2-05.fs2 the Nairobi Wind with the EOD team is it supposed to dock with the Nauticus becasue I've played it twice and both times it has just orbited around the Nauticus with a consistent 28 second dock timer. Not sure if its related but the UEFR Demeter and the UEC-DEM in the tech room and also targeting window in the mission are very zoomed in.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 07, 2015, 08:29:07 am
I just finished the mission where the Iceni is destroyed in FreeSpace Blue and I have to say that Maxim+Circe is quite the effective combo with the rebalance of weapons you did.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on November 07, 2015, 09:00:43 am
Yeah, Maxim+Circe is on par with Kaysers now.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 09:34:35 am
Hey, people who see everything as way too dark — does that get better if you turn deferred lighting off? Does it get better if you disable -no_emissive_light?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: deathspeed on November 07, 2015, 10:20:03 am
Hey, people who see everything as way too dark — does that get better if you turn deferred lighting off? Does it get better if you disable -no_emissive_light?

Neither of those made a visible difference to my old eyes.  Bumping ambient factor to 140 helped a bunch, though!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on November 07, 2015, 10:35:51 am
Well, i'm going to play it... soon :P
However, i watched Sunglare few times, checking out the new music. I think #4 is the best  :nod:

But... Is there going to be a BP PBR build? Since i started using it Freespace doesn't look cool without it :(

And from now i feel a strong need to upgrade my rig, HD5770 is not enough from now on. Never thought that a game produced almost 15 years ago might be so demanding. But it's totally worth it!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 07, 2015, 10:51:41 am
No PBR builds, I'm afraid. I learned my lesson with special BP builds the last time we did a big release, and we won't be doing that again.

That said, while the current PBR builds aren't really compatible with BP, the next ones will certainly be.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Syntax Error on November 07, 2015, 12:19:41 pm
Is the first dreamscape in WiH Act 3 bugged for anyone else? I try to link up with any of the objects and nothing happens. Not sure if this is working as intended, it's been a while since I've played Act 3.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 12:21:22 pm
That sounds bugged! Does the error go away if you restart the game?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Syntax Error on November 07, 2015, 12:38:15 pm
That sounds bugged! Does the error go away if you restart the game?

That seems to have fixed it! I will note that I went from playing Act 1-2 and then change campaigns to Act 3, so maybe that had something to do with it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Syntax Error on November 07, 2015, 03:54:54 pm
Another potential bug I may be running into - I do not have any message dialogs coming in after the first message in "Everything is Permitted" - even after I scan Artemis Station's communication subsystem. Am I doing something wrong perhaps?

EDIT: I got lucky in scanning the various transports and was able to identify the target transport and blow it up with a hacked Mjolnir. Still, I didn't have any dialogue boxes to go off of so the mission was broken for me unless I was missing something really obvious that enabled me to spy upon the radio traffic.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 04:38:37 pm
I think either these recent builds or a memory problem is causing messages to break. Or the LUA is ****ing up. Try restarting mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Azrael15 on November 07, 2015, 04:42:35 pm
So, a bug in Act 3's Universal Truth. When you are told to Run...

Spoiler:
The Great Darkness either doesn't spawn in, or does and is invisible (missing textures etc), or can't be seen with the baseline recommended lighting settings and an ambient factor of 120 and no deferred lighting.

It really takes a lot of the impact out. Build is: SSE 20151103_0ea25e.

Command line: -mod
bpcomplete,mediavps_2014 -nomotiondebris -missile_lighting -3dshockwave -post_process -soft_particles -fxaa
-nolightshafts -fb_explosions -no_deferred -disable_shadows -snd_preload -ambient_factor 120 -spec_exp 11
-spec_point 0.6 -spec_static 0.8 -spec_tube 0.4 -ogl_spec 60
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Doko on November 07, 2015, 05:39:52 pm
So, a bug in Act 3's Universal Truth. When you are told to Run...

Spoiler:
The Great Darkness either doesn't spawn in, or does and is invisible (missing textures etc), or can't be seen with the baseline recommended lighting settings and an ambient factor of 120 and no deferred lighting.

It really takes a lot of the impact out. Build is: SSE 20151103_0ea25e.

Command line: -mod
bpcomplete,mediavps_2014 -nomotiondebris -missile_lighting -3dshockwave -post_process -soft_particles -fxaa
-nolightshafts -fb_explosions -no_deferred -disable_shadows -snd_preload -ambient_factor 120 -spec_exp 11
-spec_point 0.6 -spec_static 0.8 -spec_tube 0.4 -ogl_spec 60

Had the same issue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 05:52:01 pm
What the **** is going on with lighting? Is this build broke somehow?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: danilm on November 07, 2015, 05:59:57 pm
I'm really excited to check out the new release, but when I launch the game from wxLauncher the game fails to load and I get this dumped to the clipboard:

game_settings.tbl(line 13):
Error: Missing required token: [#END]. Found [$Shield Pain Flash Factor: -1] instead.

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_2_SSE.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_2_SSE.exe! <no symbol>


I just installed / updated everything using the FSO Installer half an hour ago. Does anyone know what might be wrong?

Thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 07, 2015, 06:06:21 pm
You skipped the step about downloading and selecting a new build!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Thisisaverylongusername on November 07, 2015, 07:15:21 pm
Great job! I love all the changes made to Act 3, it really helped the immersion factor. The chatter between your wingmen, Thorn, and Al-dawa during the Dreamscape make it seem more real, and the tutorial content is fun. Especially when Falconer got her turn to teach you. Grand Theft Hydra, anyone? The missions themselves also saw improvement (especially Everything is Permitted).

The voice acting for Acts 1 & 2 was nice, but there were moments where it was a little lackluster.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Freon on November 07, 2015, 09:34:26 pm
WOW :D


Overcame my resolution issues, and finished things.
- AoE felt smoother in difficulty which is nice.
- New Raynor (or whatever its called now) looks fan-mega-tastic.
- BUT...new Hyperion(I think) just doesn't do it for me.  Flat, and featureless.
- New Titan looks titany, but the front beams, I dunno, it seems...Something. Too close maybe.

- WiH part 1 is still SO AWESOME. Story is just the best thing ever, and the build up to-...things is excellent.
- Voice acting generally really good. Simms and Laporte definitely have those voices down :D  Simms does briefings a bit quick though, kinda hard to follow.
Spoiler:
"As soldiers we all get orders we don't like, but we have to follow them. So I gave Simms her towel." HAAHAHAH! Don't remember that from the first few times I played. Gold.
- Leewenhook voice (or whatever) just...didn't work for me.
- Kassim was dull and not at all arrogant and emotional as I thought he'd be.
- Sorenson was good, but also a bit emotionless. He did the Sunglare bit pretty good though.

- WiH part 2 makes me a bit sad cos Laporte's attitude etc seems to change so much...Could be explained by the Dreamscape I guess.
- Although I'm impressed with the abilities that have been added to gameplay, I feel like it detracts from the gameplay. I'm often worrying way more about some thing I have to scan before I instafail the mission, or uploading a virus to stop major capital ship losses. Anyway, I just felt that I didn't really "get" the story. Like WiH1 is sooo immersive, you get shivers every mission. Then, WiH 2, just doesn't.
The obvious answer here is "git gud" or whatever that saying is :)

All that stuff is just those little things that irked me a bit, but didn't detract from the narrative.
Two things that did (one only because I played the original version):
1) Volume for music and voices was aaall over the place. I had to keep adjusting it so I could hear voices either over the music (but still here it cos it rules) or over other voices. Kassim for example, was really quiet and so were some of the supporting people.

2) Music choices: I remember there were some copyright issues which changed the music during the encounter with the Ranvir and...certain subspace things. Such a shame because the timing of that with the music was the best scene ever. Also the Sunglare music :( Sad that changed BUT I hear the music varies each time you watch it, so I'll have to go watch it :D


Re-reading that makes it sound like I'm hating on the game, but I'm definitely not. GOTY since it's inception for me, but feedback is always handy right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: danilm on November 07, 2015, 11:46:14 pm
You skipped the step about downloading and selecting a new build!

I skimmed that step and thought that I'd be fine with 3.7.2 final. My mistake, thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on November 08, 2015, 06:45:36 am
I do wonder what the logic behind releasing a stable mod on an unstable build is. It seems a bit... counter-productive? Considering that 3.7.2. worked fine for older variants for Blue Planet, so I am curious why the BP team would not decide to work within the constraints of the stable build for the purposes of this re-release rather then have to deal with bugs on both the SCP and the BP end.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 08, 2015, 07:07:54 am
There are features implemented since 3.7.2 that the BP team want to use; and while the SCP is working towards releasing 3.7.4 "soon" the BP team don't want to wait that long. Being on the bleeding edge is tricky.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 08, 2015, 07:28:05 am
We needed to release now and our game doesn't work on 3.7.2 in some basic ways.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on November 08, 2015, 07:49:35 am
There are features implemented since 3.7.2 that the BP team want to use;

May I ask which features in particular?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 08, 2015, 08:11:48 am
It would be nice to put a more descriptive line into the install instructions. Something that specifically mentions that a Nightly is needed, rather than just calling it "recent build".
I'm sure there have been quite a few people who thought that the current stable build is what you refered to as simply "a recent build" and thus never felt the need to click that link in the install instructions.

Putting that aside I also just ran into a problem in Finding the Grail.
There is no third buoy... I trying cycling through the rader ranged, I tried going back to buoy 1 and then fly in a staight line on past buoy 2, but there is no third buoy. No definite contact and neither a jumping point... nothing.

Edit: After restarting the mission and 5 minutes of flying around in random directions, I finally managed to pick up the signal of the next buoy... And by the time I reached NB3, NB2 was already out of range again (with my radar set to full range)...

Could you either put the buoys closer together, or increase the range at which they can be detected please? Like this it's just frustrating.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 08, 2015, 09:06:30 am
That mission sucks. I haven't touched it yet but I plan to.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 08, 2015, 09:16:39 am
I'm looking forward to it :)

Luckily a found out a little trick, if anyone else has trouble finishing the mission before it's fixed.

If you can't see any new NB, take up position at the last one and fly toward the sun. At least from NB 3 and onwards that always brought me into sensor range of the next buoy.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 08, 2015, 09:28:06 am
You could also just fly straight from the spawn and you'll find the Grail as long as you never change direction.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on November 08, 2015, 11:32:03 am
Haha, what the hell, I just finished Return to Babel, I was jumping out when I hear: 'This is the Lemnos, now proceeding to disengage and depart.' I then needed 5 seconds to remember where that line belongs because I haven't played FS2 in 2 months.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leeko on November 08, 2015, 11:46:01 am
Didn't want to clutter the board by making a whole new thread - I've noticed that checkpoints seem to be totally absent from WiH1. I have not seen a single in-mission message about hitting a checkpoint, and I've had a couple of (extremely frustrating) full restarts after points that definitely should have had checkpoints along the way. For instance, after disabling the Agincourt in "The Plunder", I got shot down by the sudden wave of fighters and upon restarting had no checkpoint options. I may be totally misremembering, but I seem to recall there were two or three different checkpoints in that one.

Edit: The following mission gave me a checkpoint after Serkr was dealt with, but this is definitely the first time I've had one in this playthrough.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on November 08, 2015, 01:23:53 pm
There's no checkpoint in The Plunder. IIRC, there are checkpoints in the first mission, Darkest Hour, Aristeia and Delenda Est. Possibly another one in Pawns, but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 08, 2015, 03:20:01 pm
There are features implemented since 3.7.2 that the BP team want to use;

May I ask which features in particular?

I'm not on the BP team so I'm not 100% sure. From error logs I've seen, "Shield Pain Flashes" is required; ditto for conditional fiction viewer support, unfortunately I don't know what else :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Leeko on November 08, 2015, 03:21:45 pm
There's no checkpoint in The Plunder. IIRC, there are checkpoints in the first mission, Darkest Hour, Aristeia and Delenda Est. Possibly another one in Pawns, but I'm not sure.

Huh. That's way fewer than I remember. Maybe I just didn't notice the ones in m01 and Aristeia.

/me shrugs
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 08, 2015, 09:54:02 pm
I have an update to Core prepared to ship, with some small bugfixes for BP2 missions, a big update to FS Blue, a buff to the Boanerges, and a buff to the Piranha.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 09, 2015, 12:52:53 am
Random stuff I noticed.

Spoiler:
1. Performance was shockingly bad until I disabled shadows, as Battuta recommended.
2. The database only stores one of Laporte's journal entries at a time.
3. I like the renaming of difficulty levels.
4. TAG/SSM info now shows up on the HUD. Nice touch.
5. Speaking of TAG, the Kukris in "Post Meridian" are lethal.
6. In "Post Meridian", it's possible for the Meridian's beams to remain operational, dooming the Indus. (Intentional?)
7. In "The Intervention", pressing "1" to fix your primaries simultaneously triggers Laporte's distress call.
8. I destroyed the Deianira in "Delenda Est" (confirmed by a voice-acted line), but she still appeared in "Her Finest Hour". Is it even possible for that to carry over?
9. The Dreamscape training is brilliant. Also, being able to play any version of the Dreamscape via the mission simulator is convenient.
10. In "Nothing Is True", the convoy barely says anything.
11. "Everything is Permitted" seems less forgiving of mistakes. I approve.
12. "Her Finest Hour" runs much better. Also, I delivered a "miraculous performance" (on Second Run). Booyeah!
13. At the end of the Dreamscape before "Eyes in the Storm", there are two options, but they both end the mission. (Intentional?)
14. In "Eyes in the Storm", the tanks often have trouble deploying, endlessly looping around the cargo platforms.
15. Wow, the new tower defense interface is amazing. I'm no longer sure which game I'm playing.
16. In "Universal Truth", turning around causes the game to crash. (Intentional?)

EDIT: Oh, and the Falcata crew in "One Future" is my favorite.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 09, 2015, 01:00:04 am
Spoiler:
8. I destroyed the Deianira in "Delenda Est" (confirmed by a voice-acted line), but she still appeared in "Her Finest Hour". Is it even possible for that to carry over?
Spoiler:
No.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 09, 2015, 01:09:16 am
OK, that's what I suspected. In that case, it's really weird for the destruction to have a voice line, because it's something that shouldn't happen.

EDIT: More stuff I forgot. In the Dreamscape, I actually saw an SSM strike (with the missiles entering and exiting subspace) - don't think I've seen that before. I also like the additions to "The Plunder".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 09, 2015, 01:46:56 am
Destruction of some of the 14th battlegroup cruisers have voice lines, yet techroom entries later on have them survive(the Duke for example). The destruction of a few cruisers in UT1 won't force a mission-fail so you can complete the campaign with them dead.

There's no real way to pass data between different campaigns, but if the team ever finds a way(or releases one megacampaign) those factors will be tracked and carried over.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 09, 2015, 02:54:29 am
"Please look at the buoy to make sure you are conscious"
"Don't ram things"

lol... that tutorial is funny.  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 09, 2015, 06:48:06 am
Destruction of some of the 14th battlegroup cruisers have voice lines, yet techroom entries later on have them survive(the Duke for example). The destruction of a few cruisers in UT1 won't force a mission-fail so you can complete the campaign with them dead.

There's no real way to pass data between different campaigns, but if the team ever finds a way(or releases one megacampaign) those factors will be tracked and carried over.

Good point. I guess that's less annoying, because it's a positive outcome.

If I'd managed to save the Duke, then learned that the Duke was canonically destroyed, I'd be peeved. (All that work for nothing?!) Similarly, killing the Deianira - which isn't easy - then seeing it again anyway is annoying. I'd be happier if the Deianira and Iolanthe were guardianed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 09, 2015, 07:55:37 am
10. In "Nothing Is True", the convoy barely says anything.

You can enable intercepted messages in that mission. Check your HUD.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Spoon on November 09, 2015, 08:34:20 am
There's no real way to pass data between different campaigns
Yes there is.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 09, 2015, 08:35:36 am
@Battuta: Oh, neat.

Even more stuff I forgot (expect further updates as my memory returns):

Spoiler:
1. The asteroids in "Post Meridian" are kind of weird... unless they're from the nuking? Okay, that makes sense.
2. Cool effect with the grid in the Dreamscape. Was the Dreamscape supposed to have a new character? Haven't found him/her yet.
3. The Dreamscape training for "One Future" is missing bits of the interface, so (for example) the prompt to switch missile types is confusing.
4. Some of the pilot information is wonky; I have a negative score, and my kill count inexplicably increases/decreases. I guess this isn't a BP-specific issue.
5. Voice acting: Laporte is good. Simms is better. (I like how she rattles off the briefings.) Kassim is... creepy.
6. I approve of the new music - except in Sunglare.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 09, 2015, 08:55:31 am
There's all sorts of interesting stuff in Nagari space, but most of it is tucked away behind those firewalls.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 09, 2015, 09:30:01 am
Pushing a patch today. Includes updates to FS Blue, a Piranha buff (when the player/wingmen are using it), small bug fixes, small buffs to Vasudan fighters, and a buff to the Boanerges.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 09, 2015, 09:46:16 am
An update has been published. Please rerun the installer, or update bpc-core, bpc-fs2blue, bpc-audio1, bpc-visuals1, bpc-visuals2, bpc-visuals3, bpc-visuals4 manually.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Col.Hornet on November 09, 2015, 02:17:30 pm
"Malloc Failed!"

Solved this by cutting down all heavy graphic settings


After credits and ending scenes in tenebra I got this:



Couldn't open mission 'bp2-blank.fs2'

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE2_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE2_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE2_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
ntdll.dll! RtlFreeHeap + 126 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE2_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mosshadow on November 09, 2015, 10:18:31 pm
The chatter boxes in Freespace blue are great along with the tutorial skip option. Is there a changelog for all the new stuff and rebalances in FS Blue? For example is the AI changed? Because my allies seem to not be horribly dying, but I'm not sure if that is better allied AI or if I am just massively better than when I first played the game thanks to all the fan campaigns I've played.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 09, 2015, 10:23:42 pm
The AI still uses the FS2 Retail profile, if it was changed to the BP1 profile you'd see Maras firing trebs at you(they have like 12 of them by default but a retail AI bug prevents them from firing) and your allies would be picked off by heavy treb fire almost immediately in every anti-shivan mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Azrael15 on November 10, 2015, 01:31:12 am
The chatter boxes in Freespace blue are great along with the tutorial skip option. Is there a changelog for all the new stuff and rebalances in FS Blue? For example is the AI changed? Because my allies seem to not be horribly dying, but I'm not sure if that is better allied AI or if I am just massively better than when I first played the game thanks to all the fan campaigns I've played.

It's probably this. It's easy enough to replace FS2 AI with the improved Fury AI and, while the experience feels vastly improved, the retail campaign was absolutely not balanced for it. Like Frikg says, your allies will die very quickly in a lot of missions (other times, they'll clean house) and a few missions are absurdly hard and I think there's one that is realistically impossible in the first SOC branch.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 10, 2015, 03:24:17 am
In the mission where you escort the shuttle between Sanctuary and the Termeraire the Titan used to blast the Moloch with a beam. Now it doesn't do that anymore. Was that intentional?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 10, 2015, 11:02:05 am
Just want to verify the latest patch is working okay for you guys. Any installer problems? Any weird errors on startup/while launching 'Icarus'?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 10, 2015, 12:33:54 pm
The installer complained about the hash values of my audio2 and audio3 files, then deleted them automatically. But re-downloading those files is working out fine.

Also, how did I not discover the installer earlier?? It's amazingly convenient. Thanks, Goob!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Talon 1024 on November 10, 2015, 01:22:33 pm
Here's what I'm getting when I try to launch 'Icarus'.

Standard error output:
Code: [Select]
WARNING: "Pbank capacity specified for non-ballistic-primary-enabled ship GVF Set Mace. Resetting capacities to 0. To fix this, add a ballistic primary to the list of allowed primaries." at ship/ship.cpp:4986
WARNING: "Pbank capacity specified for non-ballistic-primary-enabled ship GVF Horus-Ur. Resetting capacities to 0. To fix this, add a ballistic primary to the list of allowed primaries." at ship/ship.cpp:4986
WARNING: "Pbank capacity specified for non-ballistic-primary-enabled ship GVF Asten Thoth. Resetting capacities to 0. To fix this, add a ballistic primary to the list of allowed primaries." at ship/ship.cpp:4986
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '0' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '1' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '2' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '3' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '4' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '5' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '6' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '7' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '8' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '9' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '10' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
WARNING: "No Glow point texture for bank '11' referenced by model 'Torrent.pof'" at model/modelread.cpp:1826
ERROR: "ERANGE: String error. Please Report. Trying to put into 32 byte buffer: ��������������������������������Radar01" at model/modelread.cpp:422
AL lib: (EE) alc_cleanup: 1 device not closed

My fs2_open.log is attached.

EDIT: I can't seem to be able to fly a GTF Nyx on Universal Truth 1 Steele Remix. If I fly a GTF Draco, the mission works fine, but if I choose the GTF Nyx, the mission fades out to black, but does not fade back in.

Also, that was a debug build. Release build just crashes with this error:
Code: [Select]
ERROR: "ERANGE: String error. Please Report. Trying to put into 32 byte buffer: ��������������������������������Radar01" at model/modelread.cpp:422
It should be noted that fgstrikebmb.pof was the model that was being loaded right before this error crashed the game.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 10, 2015, 01:29:07 pm
And that's in release, not debug? Okay. We'll try to fix that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mosshadow on November 10, 2015, 09:40:13 pm
The chatter boxes in Freespace blue are great along with the tutorial skip option. Is there a changelog for all the new stuff and rebalances in FS Blue? For example is the AI changed? Because my allies seem to not be horribly dying, but I'm not sure if that is better allied AI or if I am just massively better than when I first played the game thanks to all the fan campaigns I've played.

It's probably this. It's easy enough to replace FS2 AI with the improved Fury AI and, while the experience feels vastly improved, the retail campaign was absolutely not balanced for it. Like Frikg says, your allies will die very quickly in a lot of missions (other times, they'll clean house) and a few missions are absurdly hard and I think there's one that is realistically impossible in the first SOC branch.

Yeah it seems so. But what exactly are the changes to the rest of the game then? Is it just text boxes and a few rebalances?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 10, 2015, 10:01:21 pm
No. A number of missions were rebuilt to be less obnoxious or more epic (Slaying Ravana, High Noon, As Lightning Fall, Their Finest Hour), weapons and ships were rebalanced (with the Prom R, Circe, Morning Star, and Piranha all getting buffs, as did a number of Vasudan fighters), and TAGs now work spectacularly.

Do you have any suggestions for further changes?

Tutorial skip has been in since retail.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mosshadow on November 10, 2015, 10:37:59 pm
No. A number of missions were rebuilt to be less obnoxious or more epic (Slaying Ravana, High Noon, As Lightning Fall, Their Finest Hour), weapons and ships were rebalanced (with the Prom R, Circe, Morning Star, and Piranha all getting buffs, as did a number of Vasudan fighters), and TAGs now work spectacularly.

Do you have any suggestions for further changes?

Tutorial skip has been in since retail.

Sounds nice, I'll definitely try out the Tags and new guns. I always used the morning star even though it was terrible because knocking people around was so fun!

I never knew tutorial skip existed. It might have just always malfunctioned on my computer because Its never worked for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 11, 2015, 01:12:27 am
Well, it doesn't knock people around anymore.  Whack guns don't make for good gameplay.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cobra on November 11, 2015, 01:40:10 am
If anyone's having FPS issues in WiH 1 and 2, turn off shadows.

Good God, the First Fleet flyby in the WiH2 credits hit 7.2 FPS. I was playing some missions with 15.

Either the newest builds are inefficient with the shadows, my graphics card just isn't up to snuff anymore, or BP is so massively detailed it just bogs everything anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 11, 2015, 02:58:47 am
If anyone's having FPS issues in WiH 1 and 2, turn off shadows.

Good God, the First Fleet flyby in the WiH2 credits hit 7.2 FPS. I was playing some missions with 15.

Either the newest builds are inefficient with the shadows, my graphics card just isn't up to snuff anymore, or BP is so massively detailed it just bogs everything anyway.
Probably "a little of column A, a little of column B" going on; regardless, recent Nightlies now default to shadows off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cobra on November 11, 2015, 03:13:39 am
Hmm, they were defaulted on in the build BP linked. Not really an issue. The biggest offender is the Erebus-class. Everything's fine until you see the Erebus, then the framerate drops considerably.

Shadows make you feel spoiled when turned on. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 11, 2015, 03:32:49 am
I just ran into a little weirdness in "Preserving the Balance".

When the second wave of Shivans warped in, the Temeraire almost immediately began to blast away at them, taking out the first Ravana (at some 12+ km distance) while the Vishnans were still warping in.

It's a bit strange to have everyone go "Oh god, we'll all die!" and then have the Temeraire just casually dispatch one third of the attacking force with contemptual ease.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on November 11, 2015, 10:43:53 am
Just finished Universal Truth and noticed maybe a few bugs. When Ken tells you to run to the light, I see nothing but black, not even the Great darkness. Also when you are running from the Vishnans and listening to Bosch, instead of flying through a red nebula I appear to be inside the great darkness. Is this intentional?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on November 11, 2015, 12:36:50 pm
Don't know about the light, but the 'nebula' is intentional.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 11, 2015, 06:36:23 pm
A couple of minor FreeSpace Blue issues.

"Endgame": My comms subsystem was destroyed, and for some reason, the support ship didn't repair it.
"Speaking in Tongues": Command ordered everyone to ignore the Iceni, but everyone attacked anyway.
"High Noon": There was no RTB directive.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cobra on November 11, 2015, 06:59:29 pm
Just finished Universal Truth and noticed maybe a few bugs. When Ken tells you to run to the light, I see nothing but black, not even the Great darkness. Also when you are running from the Vishnans and listening to Bosch, instead of flying through a red nebula I appear to be inside the great darkness. Is this intentional?

I thought that at first but after staring at the texture all I thought was "shattered subspace."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 11, 2015, 07:54:00 pm
Okay, a more serious issue. While loading Into the Lion's Den, the game crashed and gave this message:

loop2-2.fs2(line 39):
Error: Required token = [#Command Briefing] or [#Briefing], found [$AI Profile: BP].

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 11, 2015, 08:04:16 pm
Okay, a more serious issue. While loading Into the Lion's Den, the game crashed and gave this message:

loop2-2.fs2(line 39):
Error: Required token = [#Command Briefing] or [#Briefing], found [$AI Profile: BP].

ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7.exe! <no symbol>
<no module>! <no symbol>

We actually managed to catch and patch this yesterday! Update your core VP.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 12, 2015, 07:34:06 am
Works great now!

New problem: at the start of "A Blue Planet...", I seem to be flying through the Orestes' textures, which also have weird glitches.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 12, 2015, 07:57:15 am
I can't repro that locally.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Valikdu on November 12, 2015, 08:42:02 am
I've just updated the mod. Her Finest Hour crashed three times in a row, without a log; it happens just as I'm about to win (I've called in all the reinforcements, the Carthage is disabled).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 12, 2015, 08:57:26 am
Turn all those graphics waaaaaay down.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Valikdu on November 12, 2015, 08:57:57 am
Um... it just happened again.

I've noticed that it tends to happen when I'm trying to select the last remaining Deimos (the one that isn't Iolanthe? I think).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 12, 2015, 09:08:12 am
I can't repro that locally.

Screenshot attached. The textures flicker as well, even while the game is paused.

The installer says I'm up to date on everything. Here are my flags:

C:\FreeSpace2\fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE_20151103_0ea25e7.exe -mod bpcomplete,mediavps_2014 -nomotiondebris -3dshockwave -post_process -soft_particles -no_deferred -disable_shadows -3dwarp -mipmap

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 12, 2015, 09:25:03 am
What sort of GPU are you using?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 12, 2015, 09:45:54 am
An NVIDIA GeForce GT 440. I'm playing at 1024x768 (windowed for the screenshot), with high graphics settings and no AA. I haven't had any other texture problems.

BTW, by "paused", I meant that I hadn't decided whether to skip the training evaluation yet.

EDIT: More info: my OS is Vista, and I'm not using the enhanced graphics package.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on November 12, 2015, 04:08:05 pm
I also had the issue with bp2-blank.fs2 missing.

Just finished BP2 and my reaction is just - wow! Though I do not go along with all the music changes, it is really impressive how much the team improved on an already outstanding campaign. It is by no means an exaggeration to say that Blue Planet is easily one of the best fan projects in the world! :)

Keep it up!  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 12, 2015, 05:00:12 pm
So who liked the new Act 3 outro!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Valikdu on November 12, 2015, 05:17:40 pm
Well, I was stunned by it.

Any, um... details on the
Spoiler:
gigantic super bomber thing that's apparently called Gorgon?
It doesn't even have a tech room entry, I think (I checked with ctrl-shift-s).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on November 12, 2015, 05:19:31 pm
yeah it does, it's the gtb gorgon
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Valikdu on November 12, 2015, 05:34:48 pm
Ah, found it.
So... it carries SSMs, and antimatter-pumped beam warheads, and commands drone wings, and has multiple other gadgets on top of just having the greatest armor and four turrets? I'm scaroused.


Also, considering Her Finest Hour. On higher difficulties, they send Auroras to go look for you... well, that's logical, but that actually makes things easier. I can just tell the Falcatas to get them while they're out in the open, away from the warships and sentries, and the Auroras will just die. Smoking them out used to be a big chore, for me anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lowane on November 12, 2015, 10:33:44 pm
Finally finished the War in Heaven part. First time I tried to do a BP playthrough on hard, and boy were some of the missions tough. But anyways!

I'll start with the voice-acting:
Thoroughly enjoyed it. Yeah, there were some voices I enjoyed more than others, but nothing that would have tilted my enjoyment in any way. In fact, some of the voice acting was outstanding. Several of them were already named on previous pages, and I can only agree. However, I would like to make one special mention, and that is Simms voice acting in Sunglare. That was first-class.

The music changes, although some were quite subtle, were, for the most part, very good. For instance, I loved the different ending in the Delenda Est briefing music (I didn't think that mission could get any better btw, but somehow it did. More on that later). Other changes I liked were the main menu, the amb music that plays during For The Wrong Reasons, the combat music that plays when you get ambushed during The Intervention, and finally, when you smack the Carthage with the Toutatis' air wing in Her Finest Hour.
Speaking of Her Finest Hour, there's also a change I didn't like. I rather liked the music that played in the opening stages of the mission. It gave the whole battle a kinda-badass feel to it.

Onto gameplay changes! Post Meridian was a brick wall for me. Not that I failed so often because I got obliterated by the cruisers (and oh boy, I did this time around), but because every time I lost a single gunship, the Meridian kinda butchered one of the frigates. The other thing that happened the first three times or so, was that I got tagged. That was fun for the few seconds it lasted. Don't get me wrong though. Yeah, the mission is a ***** to beat on hard, but I had an absolute blast.

The other mission I had terrible difficulty with was The Plunder. And I'm afraid that was one that wasn't very fun. Maybe I just totally forgot how to do the mission, or maybe it was that I was playing on hard instead of medium, or maybe it was the new Hyperion model, but the first two or three minutes basically consisted of me firing my paveways and then just staying completely out of the battle until the cruisers were engaged with the frigates. Because the second I was anywhere close to 1.5k km, I got splashed by a variety of beams.

Finally, there's Delenda Est. As mentioned above, the ending of the briefing music is somewhat foreshadowing if you know what will happen next. :P
Having to destroy the entire air wing before the Katana and Altan Orde arrive makes it just that more climactic before... y'know.

The new models I all like. The Erebus, Titan, Hyperion, Kumari etc. all look good, but the Titan, in my opinion, is the absolute best one. Sooo gorgeous now.




As for the Act 3 changes:

The dialogue changes are very good. As someone who hadn't read all the threads in this forum before my first playthrough I was somewhat overwhelmed by all the information in Act 3. Obviously I knew more this time around, but I still feel the rewritten dialogue helped a great deal. But more than that, the changes helped me to connect with my wingmen, which wasn't really there the first time. I mean, it's not like they were bad or anything, it's just that they didn't have the same feel Brie, Kassim or the Wargods had. I'm happy to say it was different this time around. It wasn't just them talking to each other (which was a really neat feature though), but the way they interacted during the training missions. The Custos training thoroughly made them click for me. That said, would it be possible to move the Vasudan Knossos a bit closer? The guy was interesting, but it was a bit annoying to fly 40k km every time. 

The training helped me to finally figure out how to hack one of the Mjolnir guns in Everything is permitted. Was glorious to see Henriksson get smoked by one of those cannons. However, I did encounter a minor bug here, but more on that later.

One Future was a bit like Post Meridian for me. Tough as nails, but very enjoyable. It didn't help that this time I showed mercy to the Gefs in Nothing is True, which resulted in me having to combat two more Gef cruisers. The perks of being a good guy.  :o

For Her Finest Hour, the training helped for sure. Managed to get 'Excellent' on the first try, largely because the training prepared me this time :P. As mentioned before though, I preferred the old music for the first part of the mission.

How beautiful is that new interface in Eye of the Storm? Also, was that the famous SOC Skin for the Nyx's I saw in this mission?  ;)

And that, unfortunately, already brings me to Universal Truth. Still ultra creepy of course, but I enjoyed the changes. However, the tunnel (?) I was flying through was a bit confusing at first, as I seem to remember flying through a nebula the last time. On a more humorous note, when I got back into the dreamscape at the end of the mission, my wingmates seemed so happy to see me that they kept trying to hug (Read: ram) me.

As for the final cutscene: That was a horrible thing to do. The cutscene was so good, so teasing that it'll make the wait for Act 4 unbearable. :(

Now, I did encounter some minor bugs. I never saw my full loading bar, only the very end of it, which isn't a big deal. Also, during Everything is Permitted, the Argus complained about strange activities at the Mjolnir twice. Once when I hacked it, then again when the Elder's transport got blown to bits. The final issue I had, was that the dialogue in Universal Truth was very quick, much quicker than usual. I'm usually a very fast reader, but had trouble keeping up with some parts, in particular the dialogue with Ken near the Capella star.

But overall, a spectacular release. Can't praise it enough, just incredible work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: havocfett on November 13, 2015, 12:04:44 pm
Just want to verify the latest patch is working okay for you guys. Any installer problems? Any weird errors on startup/while launching 'Icarus'?

Playing through Age of Aquarius, The Great Preservers keeps crashing whenever the Gusion dies. The game freezes and I get that windows 'Freespace Open has stopped working' error message.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 13, 2015, 01:29:57 pm
Talked on IRC and solved.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Penfold on November 13, 2015, 05:43:42 pm
For General Battuta -
Referring to danilm's comment from Nov 7th, I have a similar problem. Just today, I obtained the latest FSO build, downloaded all BPC files and have MediaVPs_2014. After initial splashscreen for SCP 2, I get this:

bp-wep.tbm (line 10497):
Error: Required token = [#End] or [$Name], found [+Tech Description: XSTR("A].
ntdll.dll!ZwWaitForSingleObject +21 bytes
kernel32.dll!WaitForSingleObjectEX +67 bytes
kernel32.dll!WaitForSingleObject +18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_3_SSE2_20151103_0ea25e7.exe!<no symbol>   

The last line repeats.

I use an Alienware 17, Win7, GeForce GTX 780, all drivers up-to-date.

FS2 was a clean install, with patch. Launcher is current.

Gotta play my all time favorite (now especially!!!).
Would appreciate your help/suggestions.

Penfold
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 13, 2015, 05:52:03 pm
Well that absolutely shouldn't be happening. Let me check up on it.

In the meantime, can you redownload the core VP and re-extract it?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 13, 2015, 05:59:47 pm
Good news! I can't reproduce your problem, which means you probably just have a corrupt download. Should be super easy to fix.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mosshadow on November 13, 2015, 10:06:13 pm
To install patches we just need to rerun the freespace installer right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 13, 2015, 10:15:59 pm
Yep.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Doko on November 14, 2015, 03:14:07 am
Universal Truth 2 Dialogue

Original release

"There is a great rift in the heavens, Miss Laporte. A desperate design that begins to founder. The Shivans have a use for humanity. They will grant us survival...and in exchange, we will do the one thing that they cannot."

Director's cut

There is a great rift in the heavens, Miss Laporte. A desperate design begins to founder. The Shivans will grant us a form of survival...and in exchange, you will strike at the only enemy they cannot touch. Your mind is built for it."

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mosshadow on November 14, 2015, 07:28:56 am
Universal Truth 2 Dialogue

Original release

"There is a great rift in the heavens, Miss Laporte. A desperate design that begins to founder. The Shivans have a use for humanity. They will grant us survival...and in exchange, we will do the one thing that they cannot."

Director's cut

There is a great rift in the heavens, Miss Laporte. A desperate design begins to founder. The Shivans will grant us a form of survival...and in exchange, you will strike at the only enemy they cannot touch. Your mind is built for it."

:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:

Uh. That sounds rather reaperish... HIDE EVERYONE!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Ghost on November 14, 2015, 01:22:16 pm
Hello blue planet people. I haven't played either campaign to completion, although this re-release seems as good an excuse as any. I just read a bunch of the background fiction that goes with it, including the conversations and wanted to say... Falconer? Vidaura? Which one of you has been cribbing from the Takeshi Kovacs books?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 14, 2015, 01:49:42 pm
Hi.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Penfold on November 14, 2015, 02:12:53 pm
General Battuta,

I did the re-download, and all is well!!
You were right...it was simple (perhaps that's why I couldn't "see" it!).

Thanks,
Penfold
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Penfold on November 14, 2015, 06:12:07 pm
General Battuta,
I have another for you that surprised me greatly -
Briefly; I do not "see" any Vishnan ships! I do "see" engine effects only.
The first run-into this in the mission to follow the unknowns in the stealth fighter.
The most notable occurrence is in the mission where Bei is to merge with the Sacred Keeper, which (along with the support ships) is not there!
I am using the settings (Features, etc.) as recommended, with no changes to them.
Also, this occurred during the game's initial cutscene whereby the Orestes "blinked" in and out., and, in the fighter encounter after Bei boards the Duke, Bei's fighter shows only engine effects!
I would appreciate your help (I really need to merge with the Sacred Keeper).

Thanks,
Penfold
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on November 14, 2015, 11:29:28 pm
Uhm...Why is Calder not voiced in TBI?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: mosshadow on November 15, 2015, 10:27:12 pm
Ok I found a major issue in Freespace Blue. The Support ship does not repair damaged systems. In one mission I had my sensors and comms destroyed but I called the support ship twice and it did nothing so I'm kinda useless, especially since its a nebula.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 15, 2015, 10:44:05 pm
This is a bug! Fortunately, it was already found, so expect a Nightly Build with the fix shortly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 15, 2015, 11:09:45 pm
Yep, that's a code bug (that's apparently been around a few years!) It got fixed tonight.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 16, 2015, 02:20:49 am
In my Intelligence section the articles "The Rift - I" and "The Rift - II" are blank... at least during AoA. I'm crrently at the mission "Keepers of Hell".
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 16, 2015, 02:51:16 pm
A patch has been released. Please run the installer, or update bpc-core, bpc-fs2blue, bpc-visuals1, bpc-visuals2, bpc-visuals4 and the advanced packs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2015, 03:12:50 pm
Tell me if countermeasures feel markedly less effective, either for yourself or others.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 16, 2015, 06:11:47 pm
Would it be possible for the individual package links in the release thread to have a line next to each indicating the last time it was updated?  Perhaps another post further down in the thread showing what is updated as well?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2015, 06:16:23 pm
We could, but given that the installer will auto-update for you, I'm not sure it's necessary.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 16, 2015, 11:16:14 pm
I have been long delayed in playing this new release, but I'm starting up again. So far I've re-played AoA. Loving what I'm seeing so far, although I am a little disappointed in the change in BGM for the finale.

I haven't noticed any bugs, but the Launcher complains when I start it up. 14 errors, apparently. Debug build doesn't fully launch the game, but also spits an error.

Log attached.

EDIT: Oh, you just released a patch. I'll update and try it again.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 16, 2015, 11:31:45 pm
None of our releases, pre or post any patch, have had errors on launch in release. If you've got those your install is messed up somehow.

Looking at your log, you forgot to follow the big red instructions in the release post to download and use a new build!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 16, 2015, 11:42:42 pm
Probably. Sorry about that, I'll correct it. :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 17, 2015, 02:30:37 am
I just saw the Sathanas' main FLAK come off after being destroyed. That's so cool  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 17, 2015, 02:39:10 am
One thing I should note is that with this recent patch, we've reconverted some of our textures to DXT1 in order to speed up loading times (there's a technical reason for this to do with how the engine handles transparency and how, due to years upon years of this being a hacked-in solution, the textures used determine how long a model takes to load). This has an unfortunate sideeffect in that some textures will look worse, most notably on the Erebus and Titan. I am investigating solutions to this, but for the moment, we will prioritize load times and decreased memory usage over overall quality.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Trivial Psychic on November 17, 2015, 05:15:30 pm
We could, but given that the installer will auto-update for you, I'm not sure it's necessary.
The only installer I use is for FS2 itself.  I do manual downloads all the time.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Riverstyx on November 17, 2015, 10:33:18 pm
Ah, found it.
So... it carries SSMs, and antimatter-pumped beam warheads, and commands drone wings, and has multiple other gadgets on top of just having the greatest armor and four turrets? I'm scaroused.


I just found that tech entry.  I am legitimately terrified of this thing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 18, 2015, 12:10:09 am
Well, I'm not getting any errors on start-up now. That's the good news.

Bad news is that on resource-intensive missions (currently on Rheza Station), I'm getting some severe input lag from keyboard commands. I've tried fiddling with a bunch of graphical options to reduce system load, including removing the Advanced Effect VP's, but it doesn't seem to be making a difference.

Using build 3.7.3-SSE2-20151103-0ea25e7. The newer Nightly builds seem to have some disagreement with the launchers (both 5.5g and the wxLauncher) and cause them to hang when trying to load the build.

Not sure if an fs2_open.log is relevant or useful in this situation, but I'm posting it anyway (it's from my most recent attempt, w/o the Advanced VP's).

Really hoping this isn't just my computer finally reaching the end of its ability. I really do not have the funds right now to buy a new one. :sigh:

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 18, 2015, 01:58:48 am
That log was taken with a 3.7.2 debug build. BP needs a recent nightly.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 18, 2015, 02:15:34 am
Dammit, I posted the old one. :banghead:

I'm trying to select the debug build for the 3.7.3 build I have been using, but the Launcher keeps freezing up whenever I try to change it over (the same problem as the recent Nightly builds are giving me).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MatthTheGeek on November 18, 2015, 02:32:39 am
Are you sure it's not just your antivirus analysing the new exe? Let it run for a while.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 18, 2015, 02:55:25 am
If it's that, the antivirus is being 100x slower at analyzing it than any other program it's ever looked at.

On a whim, tried launching the Debug build manually, rather than going through the launcher. Nothing happens. There's a process created, but I can't seem to kill it in any way.

Could it be a corrupted file? Maybe I'll try re-downloading.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 18, 2015, 09:36:53 am
If it's that, the antivirus is being 100x slower at analyzing it than any other program it's ever looked at.

On a whim, tried launching the Debug build manually, rather than going through the launcher. Nothing happens. There's a process created, but I can't seem to kill it in any way.

Could it be a corrupted file? Maybe I'll try re-downloading.
That really, really sounds like the (mis)behavior of antivirus software. What's your antivirus, and have you just tried temporarily disabling it to see if it works?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lykurgos88 on November 18, 2015, 02:00:16 pm
Speaking of Her Finest Hour, there's also a change I didn't like. I rather liked the music that played in the opening stages of the mission. It gave the whole battle a kinda-badass feel to it.

Yeah, this one is quite a shame. I originally thought that the old "Two steps from hell" song for "Her finest hour" was probably the best use of 3rd party music in whole War in heaven.

The new song doesn't have the same "oomph" effect  :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2015, 04:37:29 pm
Patch and new recommended builds are out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Yarn on November 18, 2015, 04:45:06 pm
You forgot to include the mod.ini and other miscellaneous files with the manual download.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2015, 04:46:01 pm
Oh, yeah! Huh. Ok. I've never done this before.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2015, 04:52:27 pm
Fixed?

If the new recommended builds from the installer post are good, I'll put them in the manual post too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 18, 2015, 05:34:37 pm
That really, really sounds like the (mis)behavior of antivirus software. What's your antivirus, and have you just tried temporarily disabling it to see if it works?

Seems you are correct. Told Avast! to shut up and sit down and it worked without a hitch.

No errors upon loading the game, but the Debugger got angry when I tried to play the mission (again: Rheza Station) and spat an error.

Proper fs2_open.log posted.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2015, 05:44:58 pm
Are you playing with a debug build? You don't need to do that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 18, 2015, 06:07:27 pm
No, I'm playing with the standard build. I only broke out the debug build upon encountering this issue because I thought it would provide more useful information.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2015, 06:08:18 pm
Okay. Run the FSO installer, see if the new patch fixes the issue. If not we've got trouble.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 18, 2015, 06:19:23 pm
Just to make sure I understand things right:  we should run the installer again to get this update/patch (I guess this would be patch/update #2)?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2015, 06:25:26 pm
Yes, tell it to install Blue Planet again and it will update automatically.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 18, 2015, 06:29:01 pm
Just in case someone needs to do it manually, what specific files in the BPC release post would we need to redownload?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 18, 2015, 06:34:46 pm
Core, FS Blue, Visuals 1, Visuals 3, and Advanced if you're using that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 18, 2015, 07:03:24 pm
New patch and that new Nightly build seem to have done the trick. No more input delays, and the game is overall running much more smoothly. :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on November 19, 2015, 11:29:16 am
What's the name of DEM? It plays when the SD Abel warps in. It is also ****ing gorgeous.
Also, what's the name of brief08?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 19, 2015, 05:17:34 pm
Erm... everytime I select the exe file of the suggested nightly build it crashes my launchers... both the wx and the 5.5g one.

Any idea what's going on there?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 19, 2015, 05:35:55 pm
If it's the same problem I was having, it's the antivirus being a dick.

It is strange though, the antivirus never had a problem with any FSO builds prior to 11/3... what exactly are you coders putting into these releases? :wtf:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 19, 2015, 06:13:29 pm
Just a little heads up if people are doing it manually:

7-Zip has released a new version today.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 19, 2015, 06:28:10 pm
If it's the same problem I was having, it's the antivirus being a dick.

It is strange though, the antivirus never had a problem with any FSO builds prior to 11/3... what exactly are you coders putting into these releases? :wtf:
Well, Nightly Builds switched from VS 2013 to VS 2015, but that was on the 6th, not the 3rd... if we're triggering some kind of antivirus heuristic, though, it could just be a completely coincidental thing (a function change resulting in the compiled executable having a series of bytes that happens to now look suspicious). Or a recent definition update.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 19, 2015, 10:54:58 pm
So, trying to play through Eye of the Storm, and something seems to be off.

When I place stuff, the platform stays at status: Deploying forever. I hit the "Activate" button once I'm done setting up everything, but nothing happens. Nothing fires. There's nothing in the "Activated" field on the drop interface. It's like they aren't there. And I'm not sure how possible it is to win this mission with just Falcata wing.

Further, the "dropship" effects (not sure what else to call them)... I assume they're supposed to fall down and impact on one of the platforms. But they don't. They miss and start whirling around it, eventually disappearing.

Is this me forgetting something stupid, or is the mission borked somehow?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 19, 2015, 11:11:09 pm
That's an error that occurs sometimes. We're not really sure why. Restart the mission and it should go away. If it doesn't, restart the game.

The error is happening because the drop pods are missing the platforms.

Also I just want to say I think it's super neat that the Vishnan primary sound has Vishnan words mixed into it :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 20, 2015, 01:06:26 am
Restarted the game and it work fine. The turn-off/turn-on omnisolution works again...

With that I've finished the campaign. Voice acting in War in Heaven? Awesome! Too bad you weren't able to voice act Tenebra, but given how long Acts 1 and 2 took, it's understandable.

(Also, was I mistaken or were there two VA's for Laporte... and a male name for Simms's voice?  :confused:)

Going to have to continue exploring Universal Truth II and see what I missed my first run through. I got a bit of input delay in the "Apocalypse" portion of the mission, but it's not like you really need precision controls for that section. The rest of the mission played smoothly.

Also, what's up with the weird tunnel-thing when you're running from... uh, the threats that are present in that mission? (Unsure if this is a spoilers-off topic.) I mean, I know what the name of its model is, but I don't recall that being there before? Was it intentional?


All in all: great work! You've also rekindled my interest in seeing future installments of the Blue Planet saga. Here's hoping more is coming down the line! :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 20, 2015, 02:20:14 am
Thanks for the tip with the anti-virus. I've defined an exception for the file and now I can select it.

The weirdest thing is that during that when I selected the file in the launcher(s), the launcher would freeze (no response), but the FS2open exe file would be running three times in the Task Manager even though they weren't started even once. And two of the three couldn't be closed. oO Really freaky behaviour.

But it's working now so whatever.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 20, 2015, 02:25:26 am
When the launcher starts or a new executable is selected, the exe is run with a magic commandline parameter that orders it to write a file (called the flags file) which lists all commandline options. Maybe this antivirus thing interfered there as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Riverstyx on November 20, 2015, 06:28:03 pm

Also I just want to say I think it's super neat that the Vishnan primary sound has Vishnan words mixed into it :D

Whaaaaaaaaaa?  :eek2:

Brb.  Looking for hidden messages in laser noises.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Riverstyx on November 20, 2015, 06:30:19 pm

Also, what's up with the weird tunnel-thing when you're running from... uh, the threats that are present in that mission? (Unsure if this is a spoilers-off topic.) I mean, I know what the name of its model is, but I don't recall that being there before? Was it intentional?

Spoiler:
That's the Great Darkness I believe.  It gets a rather cryptic tech room entry after completing the campaign.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 20, 2015, 06:42:12 pm
Yeah, like I said, I know what it is, but is it supposed to be there?

Spoiler:
I know it's supposed to be there in the void, but I'm talking about seeing it when you're running away from Vishnans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 21, 2015, 03:03:19 pm
Things have been running fairly smoothly for me in BPC (I have just completed the mission where you rescue Snipes).  I am about to start the mission in FSBlue that begins with "DIVE DIVE DIVE!".  However, it won't let me start that mission.  The game crashes and gives me an error screen. 


Here is a log if that helps.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 21, 2015, 03:10:34 pm
Make sure you have your FSBlue VP patched to the very latest.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on November 21, 2015, 03:32:08 pm
Thank you, that worked.  I thought I had the latest but I guess I didn't.


One more question about FSBlue if I may:  This isn't a gamebreaking error, but something seems different.  I was flying the Terran Mara in "Into The Lion's Den" and I had both primary slots filled with the Kayser. 

Did you change the way the Kayser fires in BPC/FSBlue?  Before when I had both primary slots activated, 4 shots would fire at the same time.  In the FSBlue version of this mission, when I had both Kaysers linked, it fired in more of a 2-2-2-2-2-2 etc. fashion (2 shots on the left, 2 on the right, repeat, etc.).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 21, 2015, 03:43:16 pm
Did you change the way the Kayser fires in BPC/FSBlue?
It was changed to a cycle weapon like the Balor.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 21, 2015, 06:17:34 pm
If we can get some cool screens I'll do a ModDB post!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on November 22, 2015, 11:22:37 am
Sorry for the harsh language, but one thing that's really pissing me off right now is the bonus goal in Aristeia. If Paveways are destroyable now, then it would really be helpful if my Wingmen would actually accept my orders to protect me. *grrrrrr* :hopping: Or is Torpedo Two supposed to go down and you just forgot to delete the bonus goal?

The latter is a general issue I recognized in other missions, too. Wingmen do not always accept my commands. That is confusing. If I'm able to give orders in the comm menu, then they should accept them.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 22, 2015, 11:39:24 am
Auxerre is pretty easy to save, Dea Bricta can be almost impossible on insane, but I'd reckon you can easily do it on the lower difficulties. Just dive in and wreck those beams with the scalpel, you shouldn't die due to the player damage reduction.

You can also try flying a draco with 1 bank of stil2s, using the burners to dive in close and wreck the beams with point-blank stil2s. Even on insane you can dive in and out quickly enough to survive, barrel rolling will help you dodge most shots. Of course, flying a Draco will make the rest of the mission a lot harder as it's extremely bad at dogfighting.

Bonus goals are supposed to be very difficult, not something you should be able to do without risk or effort(like launching double paveways from a safe range of 3500).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on November 22, 2015, 02:22:49 pm
I don't think that this was too easy in the previous installment. It always demanded exact timing from the player as you had to be in position to disarm the Medea in time and then instantly move on to detooth the Hood.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 22, 2015, 02:40:24 pm
Sorry for the harsh language, but one thing that's really pissing me off right now is the bonus goal in Aristeia. If Paveways are destroyable now, then it would really be helpful if my Wingmen would actually accept my orders to protect me. *grrrrrr* :hopping: Or is Torpedo Two supposed to go down and you just forgot to delete the bonus goal?

The latter is a general issue I recognized in other missions, too. Wingmen do not always accept my commands. That is confusing. If I'm able to give orders in the comm menu, then they should accept them.

If wingmen aren't accepting your commands, try ordering them to form on wing, then give them orders.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sgtcanuck on November 22, 2015, 02:56:11 pm
Thoughts on the 2015 BP WiH remaster:

Voice Acting:

- The principal VAs in WiH Act 1 and 2 were excellent. Laporte was just excellent, no complaints. Steele gave off the appropriate chillingly calm vibe.

- Simms' VA struck a nice balance between sounding like Katie Sackhoff from BSG and sounding unique. Example being when she zips through lines like a speed demon. However, some of Simms' lines sounded really quiet - almost inaudible.

- Manual Brie's VA saying the 'Desperta Ferro' line is exactly how I imagined it in my head. Calder sounds a bit too off-the-cuff, even a tad redneck. Given his backstory, it makes sense. Karen Ng'Mei's VA hit it out the park. Captain Sorensen of the Indus is male? I always imagined the captain with a female voice. like that of (the newly voiced) Indus tactical.

- The supporting characters sounded fine. But Microsoft Anna's dictation is still stuck in my head after dozens of replays.

Music changes:

- New music tracks really stuck out, because of how ingrained the old ones were. Examples such as 'Aqua Vitae' at the (old) end of Sunglare, the rock and roll at the start of Her Finest Hour, the OST in 'War in Heaven''s 'crew' transfer, among others.

Story:

- Extra pre-mission exposition in Act 3 is appreciated. Ex. Adm. Lopez and her officers before Her Finest Hour.

- Dreamscape character ships are still too far away. After the first time around, running around to all of Fedayeen and new 'dreamers' is not worth the time and distance, even with glide. I prefer if newly unlocked characters were right in front of Laporte once you enter Dreamscape. Or all at most 2000m away from the entry point.

Technical:

- I had dozens of crashes, until I downloaded the latest files (Nov 18) via installer. Eyes of the Storm was esp. problematic before Nov 18. Drop pods would circle around the platform, staying 'Deploying' on the command view. This happened with or without time compression (Shift + .), which does screw up torpedo trajectories, which I have experienced in the old version of Her Finest Hour. But even if the drop pods work, the mission still crashed before wave 1. Now it's all good.

- After turning some pretty graphics off (FXAA, post-proc, lightshafts, shadows, deferred, soft particles), the game runs nearly crash-free. My compliments on the team for their timely patches.

Gameplay:

- I'm so salty about the Ainsarii glide nerf. Going from a beastly 150 glide speed to 93 is jarring.

- In Her Finest Hour, turret Alastor 41 never explodes after you hack Neptune HQ's subsystems. It also stayed alive in the old WIH. Tev fighter visual sweeps make the mission harder. It used to be that you could glide straight under the Carthage to Neptune HQ after you take out the AWACS and Auroras.

- The Scalpel is now so good I might use it exclusively for beam-disabling during the close-in climax in Delenda Est.

Act 4 preview:

Spoiler:
- 'Pasquale'. Hehe. Tehehe.

- Durgas! GTVA Durgas! New blue Federation bombers beside the Solaris (edit: wiki says it's the UEB Lapith)? The new GTVA Durgas going after the Masyaf? By Steele's orders? Did Steele know about Laporte's Nagari dive? OMGawd my head is exploding!


Verdict: Bravo, as usual! Can't wait for Act 4 and 5.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TacOne on November 23, 2015, 12:49:29 pm
 I forgot about this thread and accidentally posted this in the changelog thread as well, but is the database entries for The Fall pts. 1/2 missing their text for anyone else with the new version?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on November 24, 2015, 05:35:02 am
If wingmen aren't accepting your commands, try ordering them to form on wing, then give them orders.
Oh, that still workds? I was thinking this 'bug' (?) has been erased from the code long ago. I'll give it a try.

On the other hand, FREDers could just not give orders to wingmen with priority >89. :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 24, 2015, 10:45:33 am
Doubt I did, but I might be wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on November 27, 2015, 02:59:32 pm
I just paid special attention to this during my recent re-try (yes, I'm really eager to save those friggin' cruisers! :D). When I order Beta wing to form up on me, they do it. When I then order them to protect my back, they turn around and fly back the the Agincourt although it still says thay are protecting me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 27, 2015, 03:43:00 pm
Because 'cover me' makes them guard your wing. When AI 'guards' a wing they always guard the wingleader, or Alpha 1 in your case. Since Simms' orders are to Protect the Agincourt giving the AI a 'cover me' order makes them go defend Simms, who's back at the Agincourt.

This is a known side-effect of not making the player #1 in his wing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 27, 2015, 03:48:14 pm
Because 'cover me' makes them guard your wing. When AI 'guards' a wing they always guard the wingleader, or Alpha 1 in your case. Since Simms' orders are to Protect the Agincourt giving the AI a 'cover me' order makes them go defend Simms, who's back at the Agincourt.

This is a known side-effect of not making the player #1 in his wing.

Holy ****, seriously? I had no idea.

Maybe we can get an AI profiles flag to fix this.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on November 27, 2015, 03:49:50 pm
Holy ****, seriously? I had no idea.

Neither did I. I've never experienced what FrikgFeek described in any mod or campaign. You sure about that?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 27, 2015, 05:39:47 pm
http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ai_profiles.tbl#.24ai_guards_specific_ship_in_wing:

There's a flag for it, and that flag isn't in the BP-2 AI Profile.

You usually don't notice it because the player is very rarely not the #1 ship in his wing AND able to give orders. It's both or neither usually.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black-Sheep on November 28, 2015, 03:11:06 pm
Oh my dear, i love this mod.

however after reading the forums silently for a few years now i wars forced to create an account to report a problem i have....




Mission: Post Meridian
Objective: Destroy Meridians Main Beam Cannon

Problem:
no armenment i can carry can destroy that cannon, even 160 "Hellfires" will only take it down to ~85%
chances to stay alive long enough to fire all of them - zero.
i am unable to help anyone inside that suicide furball as those myrmidon fighters carry what the hell of a weaponset - they slice thrue my shilding with only a few hits - worst thing:
get close to the fight and beeing spawned with missels, tagged and AF-Beamed in a freaking made of paper Ulahn!

Evade the fight ok, but then meridian will anihilate the two UEFg Karunas -> Mission loss
so what?

What is the main thing i need to do to win this mission?

Playing on medium....
i realy hate those UEF Missles - they seldomly hit anything...
compare the UEF seekers to the AEO GTVA Missles and the Terran stuff looks and behaves almost like dumbfires....wich i wouldn't mind if they would at least destroy anything if they (seldomly hit) but to take down a myrmidon you need 4 HITS (with that dogfight missle) - as about 50% miss, you'll fire about 8 to kill on Fighter ... half the complement....


am i so damn bad?

best regards

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 28, 2015, 03:17:12 pm
Make sure you're updated to the latest version of BP. Focus on Aquarius wing. If you take them out, Delta Wing should successfully take out the main beam for you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 28, 2015, 04:08:35 pm
Quote
author=Black-Sheep link=topic=70746.msg1805429#msg1805429 date=1448745066
am i so damn bad?

best regards




Yes. But don't worry, most people don't git gud quickly, you'll get the hang of it eventually. WiH is a lot more complex than retail   :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black-Sheep on November 28, 2015, 04:58:45 pm
OMG!

just did it.

But that mission is so damn hard!
i'd realy appreciate the standard dogfight missle of the UEF to be actual capable to hit not flying in a straight line....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 28, 2015, 05:04:26 pm
The problem isn't the missile, it's the ships you're shooting at. Enemies in BP2 are, I'm pretty sure, way better at using countermeasures and evading missiles.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 28, 2015, 05:41:49 pm
Hellfires are perfectly capable of hitting targets, they're even faster than tempests! Unless you mean something else by 'standard dogfight missile'
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black-Sheep on November 28, 2015, 06:32:08 pm
last time i checked the hellfire was a dumbfire missle ;)

good vs bombers, but bombers aren't hard to hit anyway ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 28, 2015, 07:28:32 pm
Well, I'd just consider dubmfires the basic dogfight missiles as they let you kill enemy fighters in quick snapshots.
I'm guessing you mean the Javelin then, which tracks about as well as the harpoon, furyAI is just a lot better at dodging them than your standard pushover retail AI.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sgtcanuck on November 28, 2015, 08:22:13 pm
When I flew the Draco in Aristeia, I noticed the shield indicator still used the old Draco profile. See attachment.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: perihelion on November 29, 2015, 12:03:55 am
Played through AoA.  HOT SWARM is enough to give me nightmares.  BANSHEE also, um, grabs ones attention, let's say.  I'm not exactly clear on what they bright red asterisk on the one of the ships manifesting those behaviors was supposed to represent.  "Kill me, and the extra aggressive behavior cues go away?"  Somehow, I don't think so because that did not seem to happen.  Although maybe I was just so close by that point that even without modified behavior I was still missile-fodder.

Now playing through WiH.  Noticed a distinct change in the pilot log behavior from AoA.  AoA seemed to be giving a permanent record of each log entry after it was made.  Not so in WiH.  I only have the first and most recent log entries.  Everything in between is gone.  Was that intentional?  I'm also well into Act 2 and no additional dossier entries appeared for, say, Simms or Ng'Mie.  It may be this is deliberate, but it kind of surprised me given the level of detail that went into Brie and Kassim's respective dossiers.

The voice acting in WiH is superb.  WAY better than in AoA, though that may just be the fact that I enjoy the script of WiH so much better.  Did the VA for Simms also do work for the original BtRL demo?  I'm too lazy to look it up right now.  Regardless, outstanding quality of work there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 29, 2015, 07:57:10 am
We must have ****ed up the BP2 journal somehow.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on November 30, 2015, 05:02:41 pm
Here's something amusing I encountered: When playing through WIH's Universal Truth, I had a couple crash issues which caused me to play through it a couple times... on one of my playthroughs (but none of the others!), I ran into something:
Spoiler:
During one of the long tunnel scenes where you run from the Vishnans while listening to Aken's log, instead of hearing him recount his experience with initial Shivan contact, I was treated to Ricardo Laporte talking about how his stupid sister can't handle her drugs, and how she should turn her brain-ship around.

It was hilarious... and very creepy.  :blah:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 30, 2015, 05:04:26 pm
Here's something amusing I encountered: When playing through WIH's Universal Truth, I had a couple crash issues which caused me to play through it a couple times... on one of my playthroughs (but none of the others!), I ran into something:
Spoiler:
During one of the long tunnel scenes where you run from the Vishnans while listening to Aken's log, instead of hearing him recount his experience with initial Shivan contact, I was treated to Ricardo Laporte talking about how his stupid sister can't handle her drugs, and how she should turn her brain-ship around.

It was hilarious... and very creepy.  :blah:

Hahahahaha I'm so glad that fired for someone. It's a pretty narrow set of conditions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on December 01, 2015, 11:51:49 am
YER CHOICES MATTER!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Doko on December 01, 2015, 01:45:34 pm
Here's something amusing I encountered: When playing through WIH's Universal Truth, I had a couple crash issues which caused me to play through it a couple times... on one of my playthroughs (but none of the others!), I ran into something:
Spoiler:
During one of the long tunnel scenes where you run from the Vishnans while listening to Aken's log, instead of hearing him recount his experience with initial Shivan contact, I was treated to Ricardo Laporte talking about how his stupid sister can't handle her drugs, and how she should turn her brain-ship around.

It was hilarious... and very creepy.  :blah:

Hahahahaha I'm so glad that fired for someone. It's a pretty narrow set of conditions.

 :eek: :eek2: :eek: :eek2: :eek: :eek2:
I must see this!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Doko on December 01, 2015, 03:42:17 pm
Took me a while to find the trigger... it was so worth it, that recording is pure gold!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: yomi on December 02, 2015, 01:47:04 am
Took me a while to find the trigger... it was so worth it, that recording is pure gold!
What's the condition for it to work?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Doko on December 02, 2015, 08:50:19 am
Spoiler:
bpc-audio3.vp
ricardo4.ogg
I checked the mission in FRED as I've run UT2 multiple times and finding it by chance was gonna take forever. The condition was I think a campaign variable for having met ricardo, might be to visit him every time you are in the dreamscape but not sure, and having sanity < 40 when vishnans chase you
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: yomi on December 02, 2015, 10:15:18 am
I don't even remember him in any dreamscape
And I think i talked to everyone  :confused:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on December 02, 2015, 10:16:25 am
Those Nagari firewalls off in the distance look awfully sturdy, I wonder if anything can get through?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 03, 2015, 01:06:53 pm
What kind of brevity code does BP use?
I'm curious because for a warsim I'm conducting right now I worked myself into that of the multiservice tactical brevity code.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 03, 2015, 01:07:38 pm
It's loosely based on NATO but it's a custom language.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 03, 2015, 01:13:10 pm
Some kind of future code presumably. Just like in FS destroyers are the biggest ships around, so don't worry if they use fox 2 for active radar-guided missiles.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 03, 2015, 01:20:53 pm
True enough :D

It would be awesome, if as some kind of extra the BP code would be releases as an optional extra, but only, if time permits.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shadow753 on December 05, 2015, 02:37:08 pm
Can't seem to find out how to do a spoiler tag so i'll speak in broad terms.

There's a certain option you can click when starting One Future and then you hear something but I can't figure out what. Can anyone help me out?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on December 05, 2015, 07:50:25 pm
Spoiler:
he waits in the cooling ruin.


(Or "one eye closes in the dark"? Cannot remember which one)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Shadow753 on December 06, 2015, 04:10:39 am
Thanks!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on December 10, 2015, 09:58:08 am
Alright, so I've got the BP:DC release from 3.11.15, which packages (except latest proper build and bpc-core.vp) should I download to update it to the latest version? I'm installing it manually. I'd rather re-download entire BPC, but I'm kinda short on my Internet transfer.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tomimaki on December 10, 2015, 12:59:04 pm
All vps, if you didn't update them after release. :nervous:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on December 10, 2015, 08:23:48 pm
What were the nationalities of the voices of Netreba and Byrne?  I couldn't quite place their accents.

Calder sounded like a Southern officer from the US Civil War to me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on December 11, 2015, 04:31:19 pm
I've done another playthrough during the past days and made a few notes of things I noticed:
- In Cost of War Brie calls Laporte by her first name, although the text says "Laporte".
- In Post Meridian, Simms says "For what it's worth, you did well out here", though the text says "For what it's worth, Ensign Laporte, [...]".
- In Darkest Hour you might either want the Redoubtable destroyable or her engines invulnerable. ;-)
- In The Plunder I would strongly recommend for Alpha wing to attack enemy fighters from the beginning. There is no reason why our fast interceptors waste time on beam cannons while there are gunships around which are better at that job.
- In Aristeia the Hood ramms the GTC Deadly when maneuvering to engage the Toutatis.
- In the Pesedjet mission (name forgotten :D) the support ship behaved very weird, it didn't dock but just flew away from me or any other wingmen that called it in. Probably a generall bug, but I noticed it in that mission.
- In Pawns in a Board of Bone the briefing screen tells you that the Carthage is a Orion Refit. Also, the Antenor goes friendly before you've taken down her Comms. I guess she's supposed to be unknown first.
- In Delenda Est the Carthage is again shown as Orion Refit in the briefing.
- One Future has become quite uncomfortable without auto-lock on the Arquebus. It would be good if its shots would at least go into the middle of my reticle.

Two big points that had me cursing like a mason this time: The Siren and the Medea. I don't know about other players, but I really think that the campaign needs re-balancing here, especially the Medea. Those corvettes are hopelessly overpowered and imba. I'm definitely not the best player around, though I'm not the worst either. But I really couldn't finish The Plunder this time and then resorted to the "jump mission after five fails" for the first time in 15 years. I have no idea how I made it through that mission when I played through the campaign two weeks ago, but this thing is a monster. At least you have Gamma wing to take down her main guns and then can hope for the Indus to take her down.

The Medea is even worse, because Gamma never can take down her beams. I've manipulated the mission in FRED to give me access to the Uriel and Grimmlers and then I could at least save the Auxerre. But only with a Kent + Paveways and Scalpel? No way. And it's not just about the bonus goal, the Medea then opens up on the Anjaneya. Sorry, but this is really too much, in my opinion. If you let me take on such a beast you have to give me something. Give me Grimmlers at least, but those lousy Scalpel and destroyable paveways really feel like sticks and stones. :[

I know that, to a degree, that is supposed to be the case, but I think it's just too much. Especially in The Plunder I feel like the only thing I can do is sit around and hope not to get shredded by one of those warships. This is too little.

Aside from these points, BP stays by far the best mod, the best computer game, I have ever played. The voice acting is excellent and totally lives up to the standard we expect from BP. Especially Calder and Simms deserve prais. Great job! But was Simms really voice acted by a man? :D Oh, and I also like the Auxerre's voice. That "Sweet Fortune, what a jump!" just sounds lovely. I could listen to that a hundred times. :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on December 12, 2015, 01:12:39 am
Well, according to the lore, the Carthage IS a refitted Orion. New beams, new electronics, new armor, etc., which is the only reason it can keep up with the modern GTVA destroyers. Doesn't look different on the outside, but it's still a refit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 01:29:52 am
Well, according to the lore, the Carthage IS a refitted Orion. New beams, new electronics, new armor, etc., which is the only reason it can keep up with the modern GTVA destroyers. Doesn't look different on the outside, but it's still a refit.

No, the Orion Refit in question is the Orion Refit class, i.e. the Sanctuary.  :blah:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: That Man on December 12, 2015, 02:16:17 am
I did not know I needed Ricardo Laporte until I met Ricardo Laporte.

Spoiler:
"You Tev bastards come to bomb my planet, but you don't know what you are getting yourselves into, ah? My sister here--you have messed with Noemi Laporte. And she going to stain you Mars-brown with her poop. Here, I mark her ship for you, so you know where the smell come from. Hang on a sec..."
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Cobra on December 12, 2015, 04:29:09 am
Holy **** the last one though :lol:

Spoiler:
What you should know- you should know, that when you press afterburner- what you think is afterburner and your stupid brain-ship thing you come up with... is you take a **** when you do this. So it's terrible in h- oh my god! Oh, no, I- okay. I can't, guys, come on, you win. Take this **** off. I can't it's... it stinks in your brain. Come on. Goo- Okay, goodbye, goodbye Noemi! It's been fun.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CloudZ1116 on December 12, 2015, 11:47:10 am
But was Simms really voice acted by a man? :D
That's what I initially thought as well, but here's the actress's webpage: http://www.timothylaurelharrison.com/
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Maverick_BB110CB on December 14, 2015, 01:00:28 pm
So I finally finished this (Act 1 and 2) aaand...

Goddamn you guys! You made me cry. More than once.

Not that it was bad or dissappointing. Actually quite the opposite. I knew when I first played AoA that this is going to be one of the best games and best stories I've ever experienced and, oh boy, was I right. I patiently waited, comming here every week or so to see what's new, knowing it's about to be great and so worth the waitng. But **** me, this wasn't great, this was mind blowing!

Darius and the rest of the team, you're my heroes! Battuta, I'm buying your books! Belisarius, where can I hear more of your music?

Please guys, keep up the good work. Waiting for the rest of the acts is going to be even more difficult now but it'll be worth it. Most triple A titles never managed to grab that much of my attention as this fan project. Only a few movies, stories or books ever managed to get me so emotionally engaged. If there is any possible way of supporting you, please let us fans know.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black-Sheep on December 16, 2015, 03:27:55 am
Hey guys,

i just came to realize how bad the situation of the UEF actually is - the fighter corps beeing demolished by the new GTVA Fighters - Frigates and Cruisers burned to ashes by well everything else...

The following suggestion regards the Ulahn and Kentauri Fighters.

The Ulahn seems to be: the front line - mass produced - easy to use for newbies - die fast fighter - of choise.
So - as in the final stages of the War - wouldn't it be plausible (and possible) that most front line units with some pilots left (veterans) would deactivate the "Trajectory/ Flight Stability Control" of this Craft to gain a little more survivability? It's just a piece of Software after all.

Same appers for the Kentauri - especially the ones from Wargods - as those appear to be an elite unit - why would they bother to fly with the "lane assist" and in "economy" mode?


One could refer to it as a War refit?
And allow it once the player get's leader of the Wing? (as it will have to be disabled by "hand" and does not come with this feature from stock)

It would allow strafing enemy frigates (a bit) and give a little flexibility to those craft in dogfighting - given the overall manouverability of these i would not consider that feature game braking or make those fighters suddenly overpowered .... after all they are exposed to the most deadlyest situations EVER to encounter in Freespace (generally outnumbered, highly effective enemy cruisers and Fighters....die in 5 secends if your unlucky situations) If I were such one rare Pilots still alive in UEF fighter Corps i would do what's possible to get rid of that feature....


Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 16, 2015, 03:55:41 am
Where'd you get the impression that it's software based? This is simply how physics work in the Freespace universe, space friction is simply a factor you can't get rid of, not a self-imposed software limit. Such software would make 0 sense, even for economy reasons. Ships could simply fly with their engines off and rely on inertia if this was the case, this would actually be a lot more economical. Capships could just disable that 'software' to fly even when they get disabled.

Either that or it comes as a downside to having a subspace drive which interacts weirdly with everything around it causing behaviour like you'd have in an atmosphere. The Glide feature on the ainsarii even has a speed limit so it's reasonable to assume that it's physics based and not software based.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black-Sheep on December 16, 2015, 06:47:37 am
Could be a pure safety feature - to stop things from becoming to fast.
The hull of the vessle could be compromized with dust partikles and stuff?

it was just a guess.... as beeing in space is actually > IN space ;)

you will always need fuel as gravimetric forces will get you off your long distance trajectory without engine corrections....
But what do we know about how much trust is actually needed to cruise at a certain speed? It could be that those freigter Engines do deliver enough trust to accelerate it to Speed X - and have enough thrust to brake the whole bunch from that obtained speed to Zero in a given time (could be civilian fright regulations for space safety?), so they do not superseed that speed because they could not evade any incoming object (lack of thrust)?

And .... well let's take a look at BattleStarGalactica..... so all Vessles use fuel, there is somekind of hyperspace (jump drives) and jet the fighters simply manouver without "Stabilizing" Systems if needed. Some things just apply to the rule of cool ;)

And actuall i don't know how physics in Freespace is supposed to work or are Supposed to work ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 16, 2015, 06:54:11 am
The physics in FS are the way they are for gameplay purposes. Trying to construct a system in which they make sense is futile.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black-Sheep on December 16, 2015, 11:20:29 am
as said  - rule of cool ;)

but a strafing kent or Ulahn would be cool and rule ^^ ;)

nuff said - still great the way it is :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Black-Sheep on December 17, 2015, 06:31:51 am
Short Question to "The E"


You started a let's play . are you going to release the rest of it too?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on December 17, 2015, 06:40:03 am
If I can find the time and motivation to record one, sure. I am not going to promise anything though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mammothtank on January 03, 2016, 01:57:12 am
Wait has there been another BP update? The last update I played ended with taking Neptune and leaving the Fedayeen. I am very confused. Has another chapter been released?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 03, 2016, 02:13:01 am
Wait has there been another BP update? The last update I played ended with taking Neptune and leaving the Fedayeen. I am very confused. Has another chapter been released?
The first two acts of War in Heaven have been voice-acted, and the entire package (including act 3 and even Age of Aquarius) has been given balance tweaks, new assets, and various other new stuff; for instance, WiH Act 3 now has tutorial segments in the dreamscape.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lykurgos88 on January 10, 2016, 01:24:05 pm
BTW, is it normal that I don't get any pilot logs saved in main menu database for Laporte in WiH campaigns? There seems to be only 1 empty entry even after completing the campaign.

In AoA I get the logs of Sam as expected.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 10, 2016, 01:45:22 pm
Pretty sure that's a bug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lykurgos88 on January 11, 2016, 06:58:14 am
Could this package be useful? I collected every pilot related file that could explain this bug. Notice; this time I made a new pilot for this new BP installation, and I first completed WiH 1, then played a couple missions of WiH 2 and then proceeded to play approximately 5-6 missions of AoA in order to see what's changed. I only noticed this oddity after starting to play AoA, since suddenly my database had all kinds of stuff for Sam's pilot logs. However, Laporte's logs remained empty.

[attachment DELETED!! by Strong Bad]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 11, 2016, 08:28:10 am
I'm guessing I just made a typo or mistake (or straight up forgot to add?) some of the scripts to add journal entries.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lykurgos88 on January 11, 2016, 10:42:40 am
Meanwhile, I guess I could just change all the "Visible" boolean values from false to true?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snarks on January 14, 2016, 06:12:04 pm
I replayed WiH recently and something that kinda bugged me was that Severanti's flag ship was a Hecate. As the acting theatre commander before Steele took over, shouldn't be in one of the new TEI ships, like a Titan? Given his past track record, having him on a Hecate seems like a slap in the face and handicap on his capabilities, even before Steele one uped him.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 14, 2016, 07:33:37 pm
I replayed WiH recently and something that kinda bugged me was that Severanti's flag ship was a Hecate. As the acting theatre commander before Steele took over, shouldn't be in one of the new TEI ships, like a Titan? Given his past track record, having him on a Hecate seems like a slap in the face and handicap on his capabilities, even before Steele one uped him.

Thats kindof a good point actually isn't it.  Wouldn't the theater commander be sitting in the more advanced ships that are deployed?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 14, 2016, 07:35:57 pm
The Hecate is still a fully-capable carrier and flagship; just because it isn't the latest and greatest doesn't mean it isn't more than capable of handling the job.

The Titan isn't meant to be a fleet flagship; the Erebus is. Since the only Erebus in the Sol theatre at the time (IIRC) is the Atreus (the Orestes went back to Beta Aquilae and the Agamemnon doesn't arrive until Tenebra), that leaves Severanti no other option but a Hecate.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 14, 2016, 07:45:52 pm
But wouldn't the higher ranking officer have the more advanced warship?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 14, 2016, 07:50:04 pm
But wouldn't the higher ranking officer have the more advanced warship?
Severanti doesn't outrank Steele, though...?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snarks on January 14, 2016, 10:25:19 pm
Well, maybe not in terms of ranks, but in terms of authority right? If Severanti was the theatre commander, then isn't he issuing orders to Steele? There's a few reasons I can think of that would have him in a Hecate. 1) He's attached to the ship and has refused offers to take command of a TEI ship. 2) GTVA Command had intended for him to be an interim commander all the along, but why wait 18 months before putting Steele in charge? 3) Maybe Severanti prefers to be in a position where he can coordinate strategic actions which makes sense in a dedicated carrier while Steele (as per the campaign) likes to be on the actual frontlines and so would benefit more from commanding an Erebus.

I always felt a bit sorry for Severanti because while Steele was more decisive, Steele also had more resources in terms of the 15th battlegroup joining the fight.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 14, 2016, 11:53:18 pm
Well, maybe not in terms of ranks, but in terms of authority right? If Severanti was the theatre commander, then isn't he issuing orders to Steele?
As far as I'm aware, that authority doesn't extend to being able to commandeer Steele's flagship, but even if it did, it would be a catastrophic strategic and tactical mistake to upend the 15th BG's entire order of battle just because the CO of the 13th BG thought his flagship was getting a bit long in the tooth. If Admiral Severanti felt a Hecate was insufficient as a flagship in the Sol theatre, the proper thing to do would be to pull it back to Delta Serpentis. However, the Hecate is still a perfectly serviceable flagship; at the very least, it's almost certain to be more capable in that role than the Titan, the C&C capability of which seems (based on purely my personal impression) to be dedicated more towards strikecraft control than fleet command. I'm sure a Titan can serve as a flagship in a pinch (the Temeraire certainly seemed to be able to fend for itself and its escorts when separated from the Orestes), but the Hecate was designed from the outset as a flagship, and I highly doubt that the upgrades its been given over the years would make it any worse in that role.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lykurgos88 on January 15, 2016, 08:02:05 am
Hi, here are 2 potential bugs that I forgot to mention:

1) The entries for "The Rift 1" and "The Rift 2" are empty in menu database. The text files for those do still exist inside the core VP fiction subdirectory, so I'm puzzled, why they are empty in-game. So far they are the only selectable but emptry entries in the main menu database

2) The nearest Oculus ship in the mission "Her Finest Hour" continously explodes with 10-11 second intervals. However, this explosion doesn't seem to actually do damage for the ship. Is anyone else having this? It seems so odd, even though it doesn't prevent completing the mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on January 15, 2016, 09:11:02 am
But wouldn't the higher ranking officer have the more advanced warship?

Not necessarily. There are lots of reasons why an admiral might fly his flag from some other ship. As a historical example: In WW2, Admiral Spruance commanded the 5th fleet during the Battle of the Philippine Sea (by some measures the largest carrier to carrier battle in history) from the Heavy Cruiser USS Indianapolis, rather than one of the advanced fleet carriers that were his major strike force.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2016, 10:46:00 am
The USA didn't deploy its SSBNs to Vietnam. The TEI warships are major strategic assets and any attrition against the UEF would have been politically catastrophic.

2) The nearest Oculus ship in the mission "Her Finest Hour" continously explodes with 10-11 second intervals. However, this explosion doesn't seem to actually do damage for the ship. Is anyone else having this? It seems so odd, even though it doesn't prevent completing the mission.

The Oculus is radiating EM pulses to assist in beam jamming.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Lykurgos88 on January 15, 2016, 12:12:45 pm
The Oculus is radiating EM pulses to assist in beam jamming.

Oh, okay then  :lol:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 15, 2016, 02:17:33 pm
You can see the same effect on the decoy shuttles used by the Katana and Altan Orde.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on June 12, 2016, 01:00:12 am
Was the ever a rough estimate of the size of the GTVA? I know there's a huge amount of detail that's gone into explaining the fleet strengths on both sides in the Sol theater, but what about total? If there's 20 Hecates according to Laporte, I'd assume a smaller number of new destroyers. With the number of Corvettes seen in Sol, I'd say the Deimos class runs into a hundred or more alone.

Also, was there ever an explanation given for "excessive" Terran losses during the Second Shivan invasion? I know some work went into justifying the semi "split" between the human and vasudans of the GTVA, but from Freespace 2 proper, discounting the NTF's losses, it didn't seem like the Terrans took any worse losses than the Vasudans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on June 12, 2016, 01:12:44 am
Except that any loss the NTF took was also a loss to the Terran bloc of the GTVA's forces. The NTF is made up of personnel who defected from the GTVA, took their ships with them, and most of those ships ended up getting destroyed in the ensuing conflict.

The NTF was a large enough organization to be a credible threat to the GTVA, which means the forces they took with them would constitute an enormous loss of manpower and firepower.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 12, 2016, 01:18:54 am
Check out the 'canon sources for BP stuff' thread in the Library. There's also a complete GTVA order of battle on the wiki somewhere. Or maybe it's linked in the Library too!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on June 12, 2016, 03:56:58 am
Check out the 'canon sources for BP stuff' thread in the Library. There's also a complete GTVA order of battle on the wiki somewhere. Or maybe it's linked in the Library too!
For reference : http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_Planet_Orders_of_Battle
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on June 12, 2016, 03:07:39 pm
Except that any loss the NTF took was also a loss to the Terran bloc of the GTVA's forces. The NTF is made up of personnel who defected from the GTVA, took their ships with them, and most of those ships ended up getting destroyed in the ensuing conflict.

The NTF was a large enough organization to be a credible threat to the GTVA, which means the forces they took with them would constitute an enormous loss of manpower and firepower.

Well yes, but there's a difference between that and combat explicitly with the Shivans. Not trying to be overly picky, I'm just reading what the data entry said.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EuclidianGeometry on September 28, 2016, 01:05:00 am
I have two questions that comes to mind.

- What armaments does the Hecate II refit have? I know it's got torpedoes and what seems to be shotgun flak, but are there more? In general, what does the refit add to the Hecate?

- The Vasudan Mysticism lore file mentions a "P-sensitive" namely Nabirasul. What does this mean? Shouldn't Nagari-sensitive be N-sensitive?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on September 28, 2016, 04:03:24 am
Just going off of what I can see in FRED, it seems to have six additional weapon hard-points (most likely the torp launchers).
The heavy and long range FLAKs seem to have been replaced with something called "Hecate FLAK".
It got six Eos Torpedo launchers with 4 tubes each.
The terran turrets were replaced with terran turret 2.
And the terran huge turrets were replaced with pulse weapons.

The Hit Points have also been upped from 100.000 to 120.000, which is visually represented by additional armour places.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on September 28, 2016, 12:00:34 pm
- The Vasudan Mysticism lore file mentions a "P-sensitive" namely Nabirasul. What does this mean? Shouldn't Nagari-sensitive be N-sensitive?
I think you mean the Project Nagari database entry (Vasudan Mysticism doesn't mention "P-sensitive" anywhere). However, it's entirely possible the "P" stands for "Prophecy" in this context.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EuclidianGeometry on September 29, 2016, 02:11:24 am
Yeah, my bad there.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snarks on October 01, 2016, 12:18:06 am
Are Kulas fighter pilots redshirts? As I understand it, the Kulas are very low cost and seems to perform on par or below par with the FS2 era crafts despite being a TEI ship. It seems like getting assigned to a Kulas squadron is like being at the bottom of the totem pole.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 01, 2016, 01:15:09 am
If I had the choice between flying the Kulas or the Myrmidon, I'd pick the Kulas. Even when fighting against these two in WiH.

And as I understand it there is no such thing as a classical red-shirt in the GTVA fleet. Even their rookies go through extensive training by veterans before being sent on the frontline.

They certainly aren't using the FS2 era fighters and Kulas as throwaway kamikaze pilots. The GTVA just doesn't have and can't produce enough 2nd wave fighters to fit every one of their pilots with one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 01, 2016, 03:15:57 am
The Kulas might be the 2nd best fighter in the GTVA fleet, only behind the Atalanta. The only real flaw of the Kulas is low secondary capacity but the turn rate and amazing burner duration more than make up for it. The Kulas is really REALLY good in AoA for chasing down and killing packs of Shivan heavies/bombers while outmanoeuvring the Shivan fighters.

It might seem kinda crappy as an enemy on lower difficulties due to the AI turn rate reduction but if you let it turn at tabled rates it's actually pretty threatening with that 4-bank of Balors or PromS.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on October 04, 2016, 10:02:14 am
Keep running into this. Only tested on 27th, 30th, 3rd, and 4th nightlies. Doesn't show on 3.7.4.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on October 05, 2016, 02:08:16 pm
The Kulas might be the 2nd best fighter in the GTVA fleet, only behind the Atalanta. The only real flaw of the Kulas is low secondary capacity but the turn rate and amazing burner duration more than make up for it. The Kulas is really REALLY good in AoA for chasing down and killing packs of Shivan heavies/bombers while outmanoeuvring the Shivan fighters.

It might seem kinda crappy as an enemy on lower difficulties due to the AI turn rate reduction but if you let it turn at tabled rates it's actually pretty threatening with that 4-bank of Balors or PromS.

The wiki suggests that the strength of the Kulas is in its ETS efficiency. You can literally crank shield energy to max with 1 pip in guns and nothing in engines, and it still flies quickly enough and won't really run out of gun juice. AFAIK, AI would never figure this out, and might explain why it's much weaker in this fighter.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 05, 2016, 02:17:55 pm
AI is pretty good with the Kulas though, they still benefit from the massive burner sustain.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 05, 2016, 05:17:25 pm
The Kulas is still pretty good even without abusing the ETS. But yes, the fact that you have 21s burners that don't have to be pumped makes it so you can have 0 power on engines while burning(since burners can't recharge while being used anyway, only when being "pumped") and the AI will never do this.

Even without its burners the Kulas is like a slightly upgraded Perseus(and that's saying a lot considering how amazing the Perseus is). It has similar turn times with a slightly faster pitch and a slightly slower roll, similar durability(-70 hull, +60 shields), and more firepower. A single 4-bank can output 50% more DPS than a 2+2 configuration, which becomes important when you'll mostly be using the Balor.

And it makes sense for the Kulas to outperform FS2 craft while not being quite TEI level, it wasn't designed from scratch to be a military fighter, just refitted into one. It performs a similar niche to the Draco but in a lower-tech and lower-power fashion.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on October 07, 2016, 11:06:44 am
But it does have worse firing points than the Perseus, so not all of the +50% DPS will land on the enemy. But that doesn't make it bad. Far from it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on October 07, 2016, 05:22:17 pm
Those firepoints really kill me sometime (hue).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CKid on October 07, 2016, 07:29:26 pm
The only beef I got with the Kulas is the placement of its sensors subsystem. You take one AA beam to the face and you go blind. I've had to restart Forced Entry more that a few times because of it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snarks on October 07, 2016, 09:02:33 pm
Huh, it occurred to me that I never flew the Kulas in BP because the tech description made it sound like a subpar fighter built because of its low costs. So if the Kulas is indeed on par or even better than FS2 era ships, does it make sense to still keep producing the Perseus? Or does the Kulas replace something else, perhaps serving as the next generation light fighter, like the Ulysses.

Obviously heavy fighters like the Hercules, Ares, and so on have a role for delivering heavy ordnance (even if they aren't the best choice for the Sol theatre).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on October 08, 2016, 01:09:07 am
The Kulas has weapon energy issues (who doesn't these days), however when coupled with the Balor its quite effective.  Secondary banks are smallish but not stealth fighter tier or anything.  I have completed most missions with it without issue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 09, 2016, 12:56:46 am
The primary placement is actually pretty good. The total distance between the banks is comparable to the Perseus, the only big problem in terms of weapon placement is the single secondary bank which makes it rather hard to effectively use tempests beyond knife range.

And yes, the Balor eliminates all weapon energy issues and is the most effective primary in BP so there's no reason not to take it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on October 10, 2016, 01:09:21 pm
You guys should probably have a look at Love the treason's weapons screen.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 10, 2016, 02:05:47 pm
What's up with it
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on October 11, 2016, 10:28:26 am
Several fighters with only one Subach and no secondaries. Well, there's Tempests and Hornets, while the Rockeyes and Harpoons are all on the other wings, which you can't edit. There's only 4 Prom Rs and no Subachs.

Now that I've looked, even MVPs version has several fighters with only one Subach and no secondaries, but at least you have Rockeyes and Hornets to choose from.
Also, 2 Subachs and 2 Prom Rs.

Freespace 2 proper is the same as MVPs Freespace.

So, I guess my only complaint is that I can't pick another Subach and Rockeyes, since there shouldn't be Harpoons in this mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EuclidianGeometry on October 22, 2016, 04:04:42 am
OK so the error might lie on my understanding but the Nahema's NEM.NOW file reads:

Shivan fighter-bomber and cause of significant consternation. Like the Mara, the Nahema appears to be a traversal design, pushing through a phase space bottleneck into a new array of optimae. Although superficially an effect-sophistication optima, with excellent performance, the Nahema also appeared in tremendous numbers, accounting for a major fraction of Allied casualties during the Second Incursion. We must conclude that it is also promoted by sophistication.

If my understanding of Shivan optimae is correct, shouldn't that last sentence instead reads: "We must conclude that it is also promoted by scale"?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on October 23, 2016, 03:31:55 am
When did EMP hell become a thing in The Great Preservers?

And why is a Seraphim shooting AAA beams at me?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2016, 08:15:12 am
EMP hell?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on October 23, 2016, 08:26:17 am
As Lightning Fall walkthrough. Heh.

Only it's not as fun with 20 hostile ships around you. And it's more constant than the loop mission. There must be some ships equipped with the EMP missile.

There's another mission where I've noticed it, don't remember now. Think it was still with the Vishnans.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on October 23, 2016, 12:11:49 pm
Where would you say the Nyx ranks among GTVA TEI fighters?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on October 23, 2016, 01:39:57 pm
Still pretty good, but not as good as the Draco or the Atalanta. 
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 24, 2016, 06:55:19 am
I put it near the top of the list because I'm a huge fan of heavy assault fighters and historically tend to overshoot flying anything more agile than a Myrmidon.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 24, 2016, 07:14:01 am
The Nyx is noticeably more agile than a Myrmidon though. That's what makes it actually usable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mars on October 24, 2016, 08:04:18 pm
It's legitimately almost exactly as agile as a Perseus or an Uhlan
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JCDNWarrior on October 24, 2016, 08:46:16 pm
Oof, on another topic, I was uninformed that most of the model names in the most recent version of BP Complete were changed, my mod folder suddenly threw up dozens of errors. Was thinking I went over the ship limit. Now that I've changed the model names in my table to reflect the BPC ones things work fine of course - I suppose it does make it far more obvious, for example GTCv_Chimera instead of corvette3t-01. It'd be nice to have 'changelogs' appear after running through the Installer, maybe I just haven't seen it though.

I hope development on BP will pick up soon. Axem's and in general the BP team's FREDing abilities amaze me every time I take a look at the mission files. As I always say, keep up the good work!

Oh, and the Nyx is my favorite in BP. Dual Balors on it, one or both Secondaries as Trebuchet and it's perfect for me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on October 25, 2016, 01:51:22 pm
Is it actually me? I thought i recall having seen the Nyx with a SOC texture in act 3 in the jupiter mission vids... Especially visible with that golden cockpit.
As such, has the improved SOC Nyx made it into BP canon?
The wiki states it as being faster and more agile and able to use the maxim.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on October 25, 2016, 02:49:14 pm
Yes, there are a few SOC painted Nyx in Eyes in the Storm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on October 25, 2016, 06:18:40 pm
Do they have any performance changes compared to the standard issue Nyx?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on October 26, 2016, 05:39:26 am
AFAIK better ETS and they can mount Maxims?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on October 26, 2016, 09:50:04 am
If I recall the tech room correctly, the ETS changes include a higher recharge rate, but a lower energy capacity.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on October 26, 2016, 01:00:51 pm
I see. So it has been made canon. A nice touch there...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Kolgena on October 27, 2016, 01:46:04 pm
EMP hell?

Pretty much every mission where you're in a Vishnan ship in AoA loads the enemy shivans with EMPs. Dogfights are nonstop EMPS.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 27, 2016, 02:18:56 pm
That doesn't sound right at all, and did not occur to me in testing. You sure you're not just experiencing this on Fallen Angel?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on October 27, 2016, 02:28:48 pm
I haven't used 3.7.4 since its release, so it might just be a nightly thing, General. This is me assuming you tested on a stable release, which would probably make sense. Wish I enjoyed AoA as much as WiH, hang on while I remember which one is Fallen Angel.

Found out. No. I'm at least 7% sure it is not just Fallen Angel, I am aware of the Banshee (I think) intron Aeshma wing that the Lucifer sends out on higher difficulties, so no. It's definitely not that. Nahemas spamming EMP missile is more likely.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on October 27, 2016, 05:34:25 pm
In the mission Preserving the Balance (maybe? Whatever the first vishnan mission was called) there is indeed a nahema wing armed with emps at the beginning. This was even in the first release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Admiral Acorn Squash on October 28, 2016, 11:09:26 pm
Just finished replaying Tenebra, when I got to the final cutscene, I was surprised when I realized that the fighter pilot audio is from this (http://youtube.com/watch?v=2uh4yMAx2UA")
recording. gave the entire thing a very 'human' feel, letting you know that though wrapped inside plasma shielding and strapped to tons of collapsed-core alloy, firing subatomic particle bursts at each other. They're still just humans, they have to breath, are stressed out, and they are scared of dying.  The use of Blackhawk Down's version of "The Minstrel Boy" was excellent too. Keeps with that theme of war being dreadful and a low point of humanity, but unfortunately, a possibly unavoidable one.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Homura on November 05, 2016, 07:42:42 am
I recently found the Blue Planet mod and wow its so awesome. Many thanks to the developer.

Right now there are 3 parts out of 5 released? There arent many websites to find news on. Is the project still going on?

Also while creating own missions with FRED2 i discovered the Durga Bomber and holy hell is this thing strong. One single high AI Durga can nuke a Destroyer in 2 minutes.
I hope you will be playing as a Durga in the next Arcs.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on November 05, 2016, 08:20:01 am
Blue Planet is a trilogy: there are currently two of three parts - Age of Aquarius and War in Heaven.
AoA was initially just a long, however interesting campaign. In Director's Cut, it has been split into 5 acts, but that is rather... symbolical. IMO, the only difference about the acts are several loading screens.
The second part of the trilogy, War in Heaven, currently has two of five acts completed (including voice acting), and the two are bundled together into "War in Heaven 1" campaign file. The third act, campaign "War in Heaven 2", has no voice acting and has been modified pretty extensively in Director's Cut "update". I'd say that it doesn't need pretty much anything aside from voice acting to be perfect (but I am just an another BP player - my view for a perfect campaign might be very different from the developers' one).
So: AoA - completed, WiH - around 2.75 acts of five. And there's a third part of the trilogy to be done :P
I suggest checking out some discussions on BP board, they are very interesting. And everything you can find written by BP team. I'd say that the game itself is a half, maybe two thirds of Blue Planet.
The project is definitely going on - it's just slow, real life stuff, modding/writing challenges, finishing a book in order to get money for the voice acting, anything else that can be time-demanding.

And 'bout the Durga - just read its tech description. The problem is that in-mission these bombers will have to face many more difficulties. Fighter screen, additional warships, some more sophisticated defences... Not to mention enemy warship stats bumped up a bit - like Delenda Est, devs had to increase Carthage's health a lot in order the mission to make sense. The team will follow the rules of their franchise, not some numbers in game that can be changed with ease in a moment's notice.
And some say that act 4 will be much, much related to bombing. There are even some YT videos on a channel called Dan Bell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 07, 2016, 02:59:32 am
In Delenda Est they also had to make the front-beams of the Imperieuse invulnerable, because sometimes the UEF managed to disable them before they could wipe the UEF ships out, which resulted in the Imp being killed instead. ^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Vidmaster on November 08, 2016, 06:45:12 am
Design-wise, they are probably struggling to make this as fun as the rest of BP was. Bombers are just sluggish, slow and a big target in BP's deadly battlespace. I recall some new equipment being testing in some Youtube Channel to address this problem...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on November 08, 2016, 01:16:28 pm
Vidmaster, you mean this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDH82rjouf0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDH82rjouf0)

-Norbert-, this kinda gives me an idea for a very brutal move the UEF can do. With a Titan locked in a battle, someone could point-jump what's basically a crewless Custos FILLED with antimatter... Right into the frontal beam array. :P It's pretty close to the fighterbay, so that could make some serious damage.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on November 08, 2016, 09:19:50 pm
A big antimatter explosion outside the ship would do very little.  Ramming doesn't work in FS.

Plus UEF subspace capability isn't reliable enough to make Custos#SSM a viable tactic.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 09, 2016, 04:56:16 pm
And yet they can jump into the Kuiper belt without ending inside an asteroid^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 09, 2016, 05:49:19 pm
The asteroid density in the Kuiper belt isn't really that big. It's definitely no star-warsy asteroid field that a ship can't fly through. And really, jumping into it is a hell of a lot easier than precisely vectoring in a custos to the front beam array of the Titan.

And per BP lore big dumb 'splosions don't do much to modern warships. All the bombs are designed to penetrate and have complex scanning systems that analyse the surface for maximum effect combined with very concentrated force. That's the lore reason dumbfiring bombs doesn't work, without the scanning process they would simply be big dumb explosions.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Dark Hunter on November 09, 2016, 06:20:48 pm
Frankly, any asteroid field doesn't have the density to actually pose a navigational threat to a ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 09, 2016, 06:39:55 pm
Well, in our 'verse, yes. In FSverse there are massive asteroid fields with kamikaze asteroids who really want to **** up whatever you're escorting.

But as shown in One Future the Kuiper belt isn't too dense per BP lore.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 10, 2016, 01:04:50 pm
But too dense for an Karuna or how was it phrased?
Ah, well "distance from any large gravity wells makes plotting safe subspace routes difficult and time-consuming"
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 10, 2016, 01:24:08 pm
But too dense for an Karuna or how was it phrased?
Ah, well "distance from any large gravity wells makes plotting safe subspace routes difficult and time-consuming"

The way Subspace drives work in BP is that you need gravity wells to navigate in. Jumping from one grav well to another is simple, jumping within a grav well as deep as the Sun's is reasonably safe, but going into its shallow ends (like the Kuiper belt) introduces an error factor that becomes harder to deal with the more massive a ship is. The navigational equipment on a Frigate usually cannot handle it with the accuracy required for military operations, but smaller vessels like the Custos can work in that environment.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 11, 2016, 01:20:51 am
Speaking of subspace and gravity: In BP canon do the subspace windows usually have any tendency to attract or push away objects?

To be more specific, can objects be "sucked into" a subspace window when a ship jumps out, or in reverse is a subspace window going to push small objects out of the way within a certain radius around itself when a ship jumps in?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Homura on November 19, 2016, 08:34:08 am
I have some trouble with the mission "Eyes in the Storm"

I cant enter the top down view. No matter what key i press. Someone with the same problem or a solution?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 19, 2016, 08:50:56 am
Have you tried checking the controls menu? AFAIK the button bound to the turret control script is the "top down view" button from miscellaneous controls. Check if that's bound to anything.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Homura on November 19, 2016, 09:11:29 am
Sry i dont find it. :blah:

What do you mean with turret controll script?

On default there is no use for the Enter key. At least on the german version.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on November 19, 2016, 11:12:38 am
The controls used for the turret defense are special scripted controls, they don't use the same bound game keys.

I will look into this though!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on November 21, 2016, 09:31:25 am
The way Subspace drives work in BP is that you need gravity wells to navigate in. Jumping from one grav well to another is simple, jumping within a grav well as deep as the Sun's is reasonably safe, but going into its shallow ends (like the Kuiper belt) introduces an error factor that becomes harder to deal with the more massive a ship is. The navigational equipment on a Frigate usually cannot handle it with the accuracy required for military operations, but smaller vessels like the Custos can work in that environment.

Weren't frigates designed and built during a time when the Gaian Effort was the major known threat? It seems a pretty fatal design flaw to build a ship that cannot handle working in the environment of a known enemy, or was the UEF committed to merely defending supply lanes and outposts, rather than the strategic elimination of the hostile Gef cells? Even if that were true, strategic imperatives are subject to change, and a forward looking admiralty would anticipate the possibility of working within the Kuiper belt.

OTOH, if it isn't simply a matter of increasing the navigational computational ability of the ship, but that increasing ship mass adds uncertainty to navigational calculations then it isn't so much a equipment capability issue of the frigate, but that a frigate can no more navigate the Kuiper belt through subspace than a battleship could navigate the Mekong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on November 21, 2016, 09:56:52 am
OTOH, if it isn't simply a matter of increasing the navigational computational ability of the ship, but that increasing ship mass adds uncertainty to navigational calculations then it isn't so much a equipment capability issue of the frigate, but that a frigate can no more navigate the Kuiper belt through subspace than a battleship could navigate the Mekong.

It's this more than anything. Well, not quite: A Karuna could make the jump out to the Kuiper and engage a GEF colony, but it would almost certainly have to travel several hours if not days on sublight drives to get to its target due to jump inaccuracy. This gives the defenders a massive advantage, as neither a subspace emergence nor a ship accelerating are particularly hard to miss against the interstellar backdrop.

As for anticipating the possibility of having to fly missions in the Kuiper: Well, that's what the Custos class is for.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: -Norbert- on November 22, 2016, 01:26:20 am
While I don't have the full fluff in my head, I doubt that any of the frigates were made to battle Gefs or other criminals as such.

Remember that the Morena McDuff is a unique ship. For the most part the Gef have just converted freighters and fighters, something that Custos and Sanctus are more than capable of handling without any frigate support.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on November 22, 2016, 02:27:29 am
Current-gen frigates were designed at a time when the gefs were still marauding around the core planets. They were meant for system security rather than kuiper belt hunting.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 25, 2016, 01:36:25 pm
I'm consistently getting the "tanks fly in circles" bug during "Eyes in the Storm". (On my most recent attempt, seven tanks failed to deploy.) So if someone wants me to test something, I'm ready.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on November 25, 2016, 03:13:58 pm
Can you take a video of it happening from mission start? I may have some debug things for you later.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 25, 2016, 11:34:45 pm
This bug is infuriating. I'll get back to you when (if) I've reproduced it on camera.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Neptune on November 26, 2016, 06:58:42 am
I did a quick search and found a few bits and pieces of discussion scattered here and there, but nothing really solid, I believe.

I went searching through the VPs the other day...and I found this:

Code: [Select]
#Mission Info

$Version: 0.10
$Name:  XSTR("COLD STEELE", -1)
$Author: Joshua Nelson/Seth Dickinson
$Created: 10/03/15 at 19:44:03
$Modified: 09/24/16 at 23:07:41
$Notes:
This is a FRED2_OPEN created mission.
$End Notes:

$Mission Desc:
 XSTR("Command the Atreus.
", -1)
$end_multi_text

Now, Steele is my favourite character, so I was really excited to see this. I booted up the mission and gave it a go - and it was understandably incomplete, though there was some really cool features.

A few questions:

-There's an option when messing with the beam controls to turn everything in the target box into red wireframes. How is this done?
-What exactly is the ISN BACKBREAKER ability supposed to do? I don't believe it does anything but say "Hey we're using backbreaker" and add a bunch of Heat, at least in the version i've got.
-Is the Atreus's anti-fighter doctrine actually dousing the enemy in a Steele Rehn of trebuchets? (http://i.imgur.com/kDQzdcj.png)

Most importantly, is it ever going to be released? :P


On a side note, when firing the BFBlue, it says "WINTER KING Pattern 2." How does this work from a Lore POV? In the table entry for the HBlue, it mentions "This advanced beam weapon uses metric tons of slurry coolant and consumes the full power output of a dedicated meson reactor", implying that (the main beam is) somewhat standalone, but the entry for the Erebus mentions "[Its] heart is an integrated power system fed by redundant meson reactors. Her overengineered grid can safely surge combat systems ranging from sensors to main beam weapons by orders of magnitude. Slurry heat sinks and generous thermal tolerances permit tactical overloads in emergency situations."

There isn't really much of a downside to spamming the overload in mission apart from generating a bit of heat - it's not really an 'emergency situation' - which leads me to wonder: is the 'Pattern 2' something inherent to all Erebus class destroyers, or is it something that Steele has requested as a modification/a result of him pushing the boundaries again? Or is it just one of those times where you have to nod and go "Yup, we're doing it because it's cool to fire an even bigger beam"?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on November 26, 2016, 01:05:34 pm
We wanted to ship an Atreus command mission with the latest release, but Lepanto backed out before it could be finished, and unfortunately we had to kill the feature.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 26, 2016, 02:40:08 pm
Finally got the tank bug on camera. The attached video is in four parts, because I used the trial version of FRAPS.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on November 26, 2016, 05:16:05 pm
Sorry if these questions were already answered.

What's that really big GTVA bomber seen at the end of Act 3? Didn't their bomber doctrine move away from those, preferring faster, lighter bombers?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 26, 2016, 06:18:58 pm
Here's another video using a debug script. The quality isn't that good, so I included some screenshots.

I've never had the bug after restarting the mission. Might be a coincidence, or might be why the bug's so hard to replicate.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 26, 2016, 06:34:27 pm
Sorry if these questions were already answered.

What's that really big GTVA bomber seen at the end of Act 3? Didn't their bomber doctrine move away from those, preferring faster, lighter bombers?

GTB Gorgon (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Blue_planet_ships_p1#GTB_Gorgon)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on November 26, 2016, 07:03:59 pm
Thanks Ghyl, the video... well the bad quality sorta made it not helpful. I really wanted to read that text... But the screenshots do help. They confirm the problem is the missiles being told to point to somewhere else... As you can see in the screenshot, the point the missile is aiming for is... nothing.

Anyone else who has the cursed touch, please download this script and try and hit the same platforms as Ghyl. I want to see if they are random or they always jump to the same bad coordinates. Gold star to anyone who can record in 1080p and puts it on YouTube. Kudos for just screenshots.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Neptune on November 26, 2016, 07:08:32 pm
We wanted to ship an Atreus command mission with the latest release, but Lepanto backed out before it could be finished, and unfortunately we had to kill the feature.

So, just to confirm, the mission's not ever going to be finished? Aww...

I'm still curious about how the main beam overloads work, and whether that's a feature inherent to the Erebus.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on November 26, 2016, 10:49:32 pm
I'm still curious about how the main beam overloads work, and whether that's a feature inherent to the Erebus.
I'm not sure there's much gain to be had in asking lore questions about a potentially-placeholder gameplay element in an unfinished mission...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 26, 2016, 11:29:52 pm
Real LifeTM is going to keep me busy for a while, but here's a little more info. Take 1.zip and Take 1.jpg came from one playthrough (different from the others I've posted); Take 2.zip and Take 2.jpg came from another playthrough. Hopefully the video quality is decent this time.

More importantly, I've figured out how to reproduce it. I only get the bug if I first play "Her Finest Hour" (other missions don't have the same effect) from the tech room, then play "Eyes in the Storm" from the tech room. Don't know why it would make a difference, but that's what I'm seeing.

EDIT: Also, after it happens once, it keeps happening every time I play the mission, which is why I've previously claimed that it happens to me "consistently".

FURTHER EDIT: Yep, that's definitely the trigger. When I play "Her Finest Hour" beforehand, I get the bug 100% of the time. When I do anything else, I don't get the bug. I don't even need to finish "Her Finest Hour" - if I fly around for 5 seconds, then quit to the menu and load "Eyes in the Storm", I get the bug.

Not related: by mashing the "3" key (for example), you can deploy all five flak turrets on the same platform.

FINAL EDIT: It also happens with "Universal Truth". "Her Finest Hour" and "Universal Truth" are both very complex missions. Maybe variables are being used up, or something.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 27, 2016, 03:45:51 am
Good bughunting!

I've confirmed your results & reproduced on 3.7.4 release, playing all missions from the techroom.

1) Her Finest Hour -> Eyes in the Storm (repro'd)
2) One Future -> Eyes in the Storm (no bug) -> Her Finest Hour -> Eyes in the Storm (repro'd) -> Eyes in the the Storm (repro'd)
3) Universal Truth -> Eyes in the Storm (repro'd, but the drop pods were only slightly off target, the debug script reported the co-ords difference but all the pods hit their platform regardless)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 27, 2016, 04:07:02 am
Yes, that's exactly what I got - only slightly off with Universal Truth.

I bet a lot of players got this bug when playing through the campaign (because Her Finest Hour comes right before), then couldn't reproduce it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Neptune on November 27, 2016, 06:14:27 am
I'm still curious about how the main beam overloads work, and whether that's a feature inherent to the Erebus.
I'm not sure there's much gain to be had in asking lore questions about a potentially-placeholder gameplay element in an unfinished mission...

Perhaps there's not much gain to be had, but it's something that I thought was personally interesting, and the Atreus does have some custom modifications - and as mentioned, Steele is my favourite character - so if there was anything on this topic laying around I was curious to hear it, that's all. You're right, maybe there's nothing set in stone at the moment, and maybe there won't be at all! But surely there's nothing wrong with asking?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Axem on November 27, 2016, 08:04:54 am
Awesome job, GhylTarvoke. I can now reproduce this infuriating bug!

Now how to fix it...  :blah:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Damage on November 27, 2016, 03:09:20 pm
What's UEX Maitreya?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Jellyfish on November 27, 2016, 03:27:31 pm
What's UEX Maitreya?
Byrne's super special secret project, I think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on November 27, 2016, 04:18:14 pm
I bet a lot of players got this bug when playing through the campaign (because Her Finest Hour comes right before), then couldn't reproduce it.

You'd think it'd be more common then. Maybe it's because when playing through the campaign you don't go from HFH to Eyes, there's a dreamscape segment in between.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on November 27, 2016, 05:51:22 pm
Hmm, good point. There may be another trigger, because I don't think I played HFH every time I had the bug.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: niffiwan on November 27, 2016, 06:09:40 pm
I guess we try try to confirm that with a test pattern like HFH -> OneFuture -> Eyes, or HFH -> Dreamscape -> Eyes (except not sure how the dreamscape will behave from techroom)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Homura on December 22, 2016, 07:49:46 am
Can someone tell me how the Beam Jamming works? I found the Jammed AI but it doesn't seem to do anything to the Beam weapons.

Or is every single shot in those missions scripted???

I also spotted the "awacs-set-radius" at Subsystem and Health section of the Event Editor. Does awacs actualy do something? I thought the effects of the awacs is scripted in the missions and just tould to the player by messages. (like communications jamming or removing stealth)
If searched a while now but found nothing in regards. I hope you can enlighten me. thanks
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on December 22, 2016, 11:49:06 am
Beam jamming is scripted through SEXPs, the jammed AI is probably some sort of "debuff" AI, with decreased accuracy, turn/fire rates, etc.

awacs-set-radius sets the detection range of the AWACS --> how far it can see in nebula missions and how far it can detect stealth ships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: xenocartographer on December 22, 2016, 03:14:09 pm
The "jammed" AI is used by the ECM pod in Eyes in the Storm.

Her Finest Hour implements beam jamming by locking the beams and periodically fire-beaming them at either an artillery ship or some other point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Homura on January 28, 2017, 12:22:26 pm
I am curious, will the next update be act 4 or act 3 with voice over?
An when are they to expect? There was no update since 2014 right?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on January 28, 2017, 12:36:02 pm
The next update will just be a general asset update with no new missions. Since no work is being done on act 3 VA AFAIK the next "release" will be act 4.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Homura on January 28, 2017, 12:54:12 pm
To bad... I had many problems with going through mission and also get all the dialog done reading. That was a pain in the ass. And i realy wanted to hear the Fedayeen people talking.
Well, you cant have everything, they say^^
Any idea when the next release will happen?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 28, 2017, 02:12:10 pm
Years if ever, the problem is that we're all adults now and Darius is a doctor and I'm a writer. BP tended to get done in full-crunch sprints when one of us would work on it full time, no job no distractions, and the rest of the team would rally in support: but that's not really practical now.

But the story will be wrapped up somehow. Also we started sneaking in some planned BP3 mechanics in AoA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 17, 2017, 06:41:56 pm
So... I recently attempted to play TBI - new BP patch, a recent 3.7.5 nightly...

Is anyone else experiencing each Maxim hit sounding like a shockwave wash at OVER 9000 volume?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on February 17, 2017, 09:52:29 pm
Is that near the beginning of the mission? I assumed it was the shockwaves from the station exploding - i don't hear them again later in the mission
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on February 18, 2017, 01:04:28 am
So... I recently attempted to play TBI - new BP patch, a recent 3.7.5 nightly...

Is anyone else experiencing each Maxim hit sounding like a shockwave wash at OVER 9000 volume?

Wait, that's what that was? ****ing Maxim? I could never figure out where it was coming from. I assumed it was my missiles hitting the corvettes. Silly me.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 18, 2017, 01:47:47 am
Wait a sec. Maybe something's using Morningstars?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: martrmbn on February 22, 2017, 04:50:45 pm
Just played through BP for the first time. This is absolutely amazing. Please, please finish it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 22, 2017, 05:51:33 pm
No, it isn't the station exploding - these sounds are way, WAY louder (like ignoring all of my ingame sound settings, possibly Windows volume setting too)... Everything is right until Maxim starts impacting my hull (might be somehow related to going to 1st person camera mode to line up a good gauss cannon overcharge salvo), then it's hell. Yeah, I'm playing on a headphones...
It would seem that Tev bombers' primaries have a shockwave. And so much of these sounds at once break something with the volume.

But since I played TBI for about several dozen times, I just thought "Meh. Gonna try again later" and didn't really try to test it with another FSO combination. Gotta do it... but later. (Or not - who needs sleep anyway?  :rolleyes: )

I patched BPC with the patch from 23rd of July, downloaded the patch on August 8th. It's possible I missed something that came out later though...?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 22, 2017, 10:36:25 pm
Really think it's probably Morningstar.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 23, 2017, 10:34:59 am
But I'm really grateful people are interested!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on February 23, 2017, 10:57:07 am
So the Morningstar has gone from a weapon you can't give to the AI because getting bounced around is unfun and only good to annoy the player compared to weapons that actually deal damage to a weapon you can't give to the AI because for some reason the shockwaves stack up while firing in bursts then release the loudest sound you'll ever hear once you stop firing.

Or at least I think that's what happening. I don't remember the MS being quite THIS loud back when it was first changed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 23, 2017, 11:08:05 am
Tried it out on 3.7.5 3e0fbbb x64 build. Whatever primaries Borealis and Cancer bombers have in their loadout, they cause visible shockwaves on impact, and the sound... I endured it for long enough to actually be able to break their formation and let my PD turrets get rid of them. And it would seem that nothing else in the mission causes any problems like that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 23, 2017, 01:02:45 pm
Yes, as above, it's the Morningstar. Needs some kind of solution to the overlapping shockwave sounds.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on February 23, 2017, 05:29:39 pm
Is this with or without OpenAL Soft (which switches to a new audio code)? If you don't know for sure, the debug log should say.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 24, 2017, 06:21:03 am
Code: [Select]
You are not using OpenAL Soft. Disabling enhanced sound.Awwww, so not only OpenAL, but also OpenAL soft? Okay, gotta install that one too. :blah:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Phantom Hoover on February 24, 2017, 07:07:33 am
Creative's OpenAL has been unmaintained garbage for years, you should have switched to OpenAL Soft already.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 24, 2017, 09:03:16 am
So, I have installed the OAL Soft... I think. Dropping .dlls into system32 is not a standard installation procedure.
Code: [Select]
Initializing OpenAL...
  OpenAL Vendor     : OpenAL Community
  OpenAL Renderer   : OpenAL Soft
  OpenAL Version    : 1.1 ALSOFT 1.17.2

  Found extension "AL_EXT_float32".
  Found extension "ALC_EXT_EFX".
Enhanced sound is enabled.

Well, the shockwave sounds are still there, but this time they decided to obey the mighty volume bar.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on March 23, 2017, 04:58:27 am
Has something happened with team colours? 1st Fleet specifically.

The turqoise is gone from the spinning thingy.

[attachment stolen by Russian hackers]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on March 27, 2017, 01:02:50 pm
Years if ever, the problem is that we're all adults now and Darius is a doctor and I'm a writer. BP tended to get done in full-crunch sprints when one of us would work on it full time, no job no distractions, and the rest of the team would rally in support: but that's not really practical now.

But the story will be wrapped up somehow. Also we started sneaking in some planned BP3 mechanics in AoA.

I got the sense this was going to be the way of thing. It's why I kind of wish you guys hadn't tried to reinvent the wheel quite so hard with the level of complexity. Nothing's worse than a story you get invested dying a slow death.

On the plus side, you all did some great work over the years. Actually, would it be possible to FRED a cutscene conclusion to the story? That might give everyone some needed closure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on March 27, 2017, 01:11:33 pm
I don't think complexity was particularly an issue; it's just a matter of man-hours available for work. We spent our last big sprint on voice acting instead of finishing BP2. The story won't die. One way or another it will be told.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Bryan See on March 27, 2017, 02:12:11 pm
Years if ever, the problem is that we're all adults now and Darius is a doctor and I'm a writer. BP tended to get done in full-crunch sprints when one of us would work on it full time, no job no distractions, and the rest of the team would rally in support: but that's not really practical now.
Just like me. But the situation is different.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: X3N0-Life-Form on March 27, 2017, 03:50:05 pm
So, not like you then.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Bryan See on April 03, 2017, 11:18:53 am
Fine with me.

Now then, back to the BP: WiH discussion. What will happen to Admiral Steele and Noemi Laporte?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Makhpella on April 03, 2017, 11:57:53 am
Uhm, we'll find out in acts 4 and/or 5? the future?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Abaddon on April 21, 2017, 12:41:08 pm
I'd predict some sort of new alliance against the Vishnans, echoing the formation of the GTVA in some ways... Steele could probably offer terms soft enough to achieve UEF surrender, perhaps some degree of local UEF autonomy in exchange for a UEF-GTVA military alliance and overall GTVA governance.

This makes a bit of sense when you think about the greatest UEF victory, the destruction of the Carthage. It took an immense amount of logistics and planning, and very heavy losses, including three frigates (four when you count the Indus getting flung into the sun) - all to take down a ship that, however well altered, is still a retrofitted Great War-era destroyer. This doesn't come anywhere near providing a solution for the Atreus or Imperieuse, not to mention the Orestes or Temeraire should they be actively deployed. So in my opinion, the threat of directly deploying any subset of the superdestroyer force against Earth's defenses could succeed in achieving surrender under any kind of reasonable terms, especially now that both sides would seem to be aware that the Vishnans' interference isn't benevolent. Common enemies always speed things along.

Of course this is all just my speculative headcanon. I'd love to have it replaced with real BP canon at some point  ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on April 21, 2017, 01:57:07 pm
I'd predict some sort of new alliance against the Vishnans, echoing the formation of the GTVA in some ways... Steele could probably offer terms soft enough to achieve UEF surrender, perhaps some degree of local UEF autonomy in exchange for a UEF-GTVA military alliance and overall GTVA governance.

So somewhat kind of like the current China-Hong Kong situation?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Abaddon on April 21, 2017, 02:49:25 pm
In a way. Maybe a closer parallel would be Russia/Chechnya given the wars there in recent decades.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on April 21, 2017, 06:14:27 pm
Whoah. I thought I wrote these two replies above...

Welp, it wasn't me. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Abaddon on April 21, 2017, 06:29:16 pm
Haha my bad, this has been my Steam avatar for a while, I swear!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on April 21, 2017, 10:12:11 pm
I suspect I may be asking a question that's already been answered, but as it's been almost two and a half years since I've gotten FSO and played Blue Planet, I'd like to know if WiH II has had any work for possible voice acting?  I feel like it'd add to the story's quality a fair bit more.  Likewise...Well, I have recently started up doing video game commentary, so I'd like to possibly do a Let's Play of WiH II myself (the first two acts I kind played to death, so I don't feel like it'd be genuine enough to really allow viewers to enjoy).  As it stands, WiH II I don't think I've ever completed, let alone even fully understood that story at all due to the lack of voice acting.  The combat makes all the discussions get drowned away.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on April 22, 2017, 03:46:13 am
At the risk of having a different point of view than most, I'd much prefer some more work on acts 4 and 5, not to mention the seemingly more and more elusive BP3.
All I'm saying is I wouldn't wish for those to be cancelled simply because all time and resources got shifted to VA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Abaddon on April 22, 2017, 10:08:46 am
I don't think that's an unpopular opinion. I'm fairly sure I read that's the devs' consensus too, either earlier in this discussion or in another thread.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on April 22, 2017, 01:30:02 pm
When the team has time for another month-long sprint, it'll almost be certainly devoted to getting Act 4 (at least!) out the door.  It's just hard to find the time.  Even I haven't worked on a model in many, many months.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on April 22, 2017, 02:26:06 pm
I don't think we are in a position to demand anything from people who are already freely giving us a stunning product on their own time.

I must say however that I would love to see this go through to the end one day.

By the way, don't get me wrong: the voice acting is superb.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Torchwood on April 22, 2017, 02:39:38 pm
Of course we're not entitled to demand something. We are, however, free to proclaim what we believe is more important. Everyone in the devteam probably knows already, but it nevers hurts to give confirmation.

And while the voice acting is great, I wouldn't say it's a critical as bringing the story to a close.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on April 22, 2017, 03:00:41 pm
Still chipping away at Act 4 when I get the time alongside occasional spurts of activity by the team polishing up the modpack. It's been five years and most of the act 4 missions are a good way to completion with just the finale causing trouble and not yet started.  I'd bet on the next release as being Act 4 before any VA release.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on April 22, 2017, 04:44:30 pm
Great to know.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 23, 2017, 12:22:05 am
I suspect I may be asking a question that's already been answered, but as it's been almost two and a half years since I've gotten FSO and played Blue Planet, I'd like to know if WiH II has had any work for possible voice acting?  I feel like it'd add to the story's quality a fair bit more.  Likewise...Well, I have recently started up doing video game commentary, so I'd like to possibly do a Let's Play of WiH II myself (the first two acts I kind played to death, so I don't feel like it'd be genuine enough to really allow viewers to enjoy).  As it stands, WiH II I don't think I've ever completed, let alone even fully understood that story at all due to the lack of voice acting.  The combat makes all the discussions get drowned away.

Even if we had the bandwidth to pursue this instead of finishing act 4+5 (definitely the priority!), I couldn't afford to pay actors any more.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Neptune on April 23, 2017, 06:57:07 am
Even if we had the bandwidth to pursue this instead of finishing act 4+5 (definitely the priority!), I couldn't afford to pay actors any more.

I think this is an important point to note. While scripting, managing people, doing auditions and things is a huge task, it's not the only limitation in place. I haven't been around that long but I remember seeing some discussion about hiring professional actors for some roles to get the desired quality. As far as i'm aware everything was funded out of the team members own pockets. I'd love to see the rest of the campaign VA'd, but i'd rather the team hang onto their hard earned money - they've more then shown their love for the project and their dedication to the cause.

On the note of Voice Acting, can I just give a (long overdue, i've been meaning to do this for some time) huge shout-out to Caiaphas for the magnificent job he's done voicing Steele? Amongst an already outstanding cast he takes the cake, perfectly capturing Steele as the gentleman psychopath (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) he is. I end up sporting the stupidest grin every time I listen to him showing Lopez who is the boss. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on April 23, 2017, 08:43:28 am
Act 4 has been "close to done" for quite a few years now AFAIK. Even when all the missions are complete I'm guessing there'll still be a while before the thing's released because it has to go through a lot of iteration and testing. From what I've heard act 4 will also be a decent stop point because it wraps up the UEF-GTVA war.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on April 23, 2017, 04:26:20 pm
Well, I have recently started up doing video game commentary, so I'd like to possibly do a Let's Play of WiH II myself (the first two acts I kind played to death, so I don't feel like it'd be genuine enough to really allow viewers to enjoy).
My suggestion, if you want to make a gameplay out of Blue Planet, do it on a FSO build that uses PBR. It looks just so much better!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Caiaphas on April 24, 2017, 04:01:00 pm
On the note of Voice Acting, can I just give a (long overdue, i've been meaning to do this for some time) huge shout-out to Caiaphas for the magnificent job he's done voicing Steele? Amongst an already outstanding cast he takes the cake, perfectly capturing Steele as the gentleman psychopath (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagnificentBastard) he is. I end up sporting the stupidest grin every time I listen to him showing Lopez who is the boss. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0)

Message received, and thank you for the accolades.  I do hope I'll have the chance to reprise Steele at some point in the future of BP, whatever form BP's future takes.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Bryan See on April 25, 2017, 12:09:44 pm
As if Darius and his team decides.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on August 13, 2017, 12:24:08 pm
Pardon me, but when has Post Meridian become such an absurdity of a mission? I remember it being a self-playing mission at the initial release, so there was some need to do something with it from a gameplay pov - though I personally think that some self-playing pieces here and there are quite okay. But the outcome surely overshot in my opinion. I think the Maxim strike should be weakened drastically, reduce it to one wave + possibly remove the fighter escort (or both).

Any other opinions on that?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: xenocartographer on August 13, 2017, 04:40:15 pm
Are you exploiting (and covering) Epsilon wing?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on August 13, 2017, 06:02:14 pm
The main difficulty difference in the latest release is that Epsilon is going to get destroyed before they even launch their first missiles if you don't help them. And if they don't kill the main guns of Meridian or if you don't finish their job then it's basically game over for the frigates. Actually, killing the Ares wing designated by Epsilon when the mission starts seems to be just enough.

E: Hold on a sec, by 'Epsilon' I meant that gunship wing that's supposed to defang the Meridian. Just for the clarity's sake, I can't remember their proper designation.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: xenocartographer on August 13, 2017, 07:44:16 pm
Delta!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 13, 2017, 08:56:08 pm
Protect Delta, then use the missile spotting to kill the Maxim strike.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Homura on August 14, 2017, 12:14:16 am
Pardon me, but when has Post Meridian become such an absurdity of a mission? I remember it being a self-playing mission at the initial release, so there was some need to do something with it from a gameplay pov - though I personally think that some self-playing pieces here and there are quite okay.

Was there an update release this year or something? I do remember that frustating Maxim strike. Did they changed something recently?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on August 14, 2017, 12:25:28 am
If you guys ever do reach a point of, "f- this noise," codex lore, a short story, or an ingame cutscene would be fine too. I just hate to see orphaned stories with so much promise.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on August 14, 2017, 09:34:37 am
Well, guys. I did figure out that the trick is to kill Aquarius and use Epsilon. Thanks for that.  :P The point is that both is a lot easier said than done. I don't know when this recent update was released, I just recently updated my BP files. Until a few weeks ago I had the files from the director's cut release.

Killing Aquarius has definitely become more difficult, but this part is not the core problem. I really believe that the Maxim strike is too powerful and should be weakened. But okay, I'm sure I'll give this further attempts in the future and improve my handling of this mission. Still, I was really frustrated yesterday. Again, pardon the harsh language. Don't consider it personal offence, please. I mean it strictly professional.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2017, 10:45:35 am
It's probably a little much (I am super tempted to give all warships mild Maxim resistance) but just spam those missile calls and use the targeting hotkeys.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Neptune on August 14, 2017, 11:17:53 am
(I am super tempted to give all warships mild Maxim resistance)

I always thought that UEF warships were just really weak to maxims from a story perspective (Stuff like "Maxim penetration really tore up Engineering" and so on).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on August 14, 2017, 11:55:44 am
Maxim DPS has been absolutely ridiculous since retail and I think giving all warships some resistance to it might be a more elegant solution than straight-up nerfing the damage. That way maxims will still do full damage to light targets like transports(which is what they're really built for) while not being as dumb against warships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 14, 2017, 12:02:04 pm
Yes. A slight subtractive threshold could sharply cut Maxim DPS without changing much else.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on August 14, 2017, 02:06:01 pm
Also, there are other explanations for why the Yangtze took so much internal damage from maxim penetration aside from just saying that all UEF ships are really weak to the maxim cannon.
The wargods were engaged in a huge engagement and took quite a lot of beam and torpedo damage by that point, their active armour must have already been at the limit and the actual plating was very likely to have been quite badly damaged. By the time of the later maxim strikes both the Indus and the Yangtze must've been at their limit, the Indus was just luckier.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on August 31, 2017, 09:27:15 pm
Ok, I give up...
Aristea. Torpedo Two.
I can't save them anymore. In fact, I can't even get the Medea's beams down. They've been significantly up-armored since my last play through (takes 4 Paveways now instead of the 2 I remember), and Paveways are now apparently much easier to intercept, as I can barely ever get them to go through at all. Is it even still doable?

Playing on Medium, I've tried:
- Every possible angle of attack
- Ordering friendlies to destroy beams (they just get murdered as soon as they get close)
- Dive-bombing the beams (even at point blank range, the Paveways get intercepted more often than not)
- Firing on the Medea as fast as possible (being within range, in position, and delaying only as long as it takes to obtain lock)
- Cheating myself infinite ammo and just chucking swarms of Paveways at it (and that STILL isn't enough to bring the beams down)

Any hints would be greatly appreciated, because I really cannot think of anything else to try.  :banghead:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 01, 2017, 07:15:46 am
I mean, they are so horrifically out of position that I'm not sure anything could save them short of them basically running directly away from the diomedes as soon as it shows up, or the strike craft assault happening sooner.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on September 01, 2017, 05:18:30 pm
Hehe, yeah, but that's sort of the point... and the sentiment behind the "Sweet fortune, what a jump!" comment. But in theory, you should be able to blitz the beams and rescue the cruisers (or at least you used to be able to). Now though, they soak up too much damage to kill quickly, intercept 50-75% of incoming Paveways, and fire non-stop, killing the cruisers in a matter of seconds.

I understand that originally it was awfully easy to save them (provided you were ready for the Medea), but good grief, feels like the difficulty of keeping them alive has maybe been overdone a bit.   :wtf:

On another note:
During Darkest Hour, some of the warship behavior seems a little... lacking in tactics.
When the Indus jumps in to bring down the Valerie, it generally cripples her engines right off the bat, leaving her stuck in place and unable to reposition herself. And while I understand that it's maybe a bit much to ask of the AI to respond dynamically to an enemy warship's condition, it does seem like Captain Sorenson makes a pretty odd decision: Rather than hang out behind the Valerie and pounding it with Mass Drivers as well as torpedos, or at least attempting to drop underneath the Valerie to get into her blind spot where her slash beams can't hit, the Indus moves into broadside position opposite the Vatican, so that the Valerie can easily bring all 4 of it's beams (well, it would if I didn't disarm it at least) to bear on the Fed's ships. Seems to me that it's kinda silly to purposefully position yourself so as to bear the full brunt of your enemy's strongest fire concentration. It would maybe make sense if the Indus moved to the Valerie's port-side to position herself between the corvette and Rheza, but instead the Indus moves to her starboard, between the Valerie and... nothing.

I guess it also seems strange to me that once the Valerie realizes it's toast, it doesn't attempt to knock out Rheza station and at least complete its mission objective before going down... Or that the Atreus doesn't at least try to take a potshot at Rheza (or one of the Fed warships) after taking down the other station, and instead just sits there taking fire from the Vikrant and Torreador before leaving.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on September 01, 2017, 07:50:14 pm
The answer to Medea might be hidden in one of the less interesting secondary weapons: one of the swarm missiles, I think it was the Dirk, has got an effective range of about 1600m and can damage turrets fairly well. I used it whenever there's a Diomedes to defang - in Darkest Hour, where you can bring down two of the beams even before they start firing at Indus, and also in Aristea, but I had much less luck there, as enemy fighters were attacking me as soon as I started even thinking about shooting at the Tev corvette, thus I could kill only one of the two beam cannons. At least at that 1600m range you're not being harrased by point defences anymore.

I have also reported the problem with the Indus quite some time earlier. In my opinion, waypoint paths were designed in a way not considering the corvette getting disabled. Seems like an oversight, perhaps related to some changes in stats of Karuna's Gauss cannons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on September 01, 2017, 08:11:54 pm
Disabling the Valerie's main beams in Darkest Hour is easily accomplished with Dirks, but it takes pretty much a full bank to take one out. By the time you can empty enough rounds into the Medea's beams, it's already wiped out the cruisers. Not to mention, the Medea's air wing doesn't exactly let you just sit there dumping rounds into it...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on September 02, 2017, 06:28:39 am
Medeas beams are up-armored, so it should word if you attack her from dead ahead and fire Paveways into the side of the turrets.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on September 02, 2017, 08:31:20 am
Medeas beams are up-armored, so it should word if you attack her from dead ahead and fire Paveways into the side of the turrets.

I've tried that, tons of times. Still a minimum 50% intercept rate before they ever have a chance to land, and still takes 4 direct hits to drop one of the beams. Even with the best possible luck, you'll have to rearm between beam destruction, which gives the Medea more than enough time to tear both cruisers to shred and even if you got lucky and got them down fast, you'd be very hard pressed to get the Hood's main beam knocked out in time by that point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Neptune on September 02, 2017, 09:18:26 am

I've tried that, tons of times. Still a minimum 50% intercept rate before they ever have a chance to land, and still takes 4 direct hits to drop one of the beams. Even with the best possible luck, you'll have to rearm between beam destruction, which gives the Medea more than enough time to tear both cruisers to shred and even if you got lucky and got them down fast, you'd be very hard pressed to get the Hood's main beam knocked out in time by that point.

Not arguing with you on your main point - Normally I've all but given up ever saving Torpedo Two. Even when I've maintained my fighter compliment without a scratch and loaded up on paveways and meticulously ordered everyone (on medium, same as you), something goes wrong every time - the gunships fly into range of the Medea's point defences and get chewed up, or run down by the Medea's air wing horridly fast before they can do anything (even with everyone else guarding them). However, you should only need to worry about the Hood if the Anjaneya goes down, and with a bit of bossing people around keeping it alive without slammers/being a crackshot is fairly trivial.

That said, taking those beams out seem to be frustratingly tough, I agree. One could argue that Torpedo Two is in a bad position and it's supposed to be a difficult bonus goal to save them, but the recommendations state "Try to keep Gamma Wing alive through the opening dogfight so you can use their firepower later to ...  disarm the Medea's beams." - That seems to imply that a healthy Gamma wing and a bit of awareness should make it trivial, but that's not the experience I've had.

Last time I melted my face against this mission to try to save Torpedo Two I decided to generously "donate" myself an Izra'il (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/UEF_Izra%27il) class fighter to see if I could shove enough Paveways down it's throat - to much the same effect you had. Next time, i'll bring an Uriel, and just try sniping the beams myself - i'm hardly a good shot but at least I can avoid the kill zone, unlike my wingmen...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Soulrheever on September 02, 2017, 09:28:41 am
Glad I'm not the only one finding it to be impossible! My goal was really to find out if it was possible still, and if so, then how.

Taking out the Hood's forward beam is to save Torpedo Two, since it'll open fire on them when they get in range (since the Anjenya doesn't have the bandwidth to cover them as well), but if it isn't even possible to take out the Medea's beams, then it doesn't much matter. *shrug*
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Neptune on September 02, 2017, 09:33:03 am
Taking out the Hood's forward beam is to save Torpedo Two, since it'll open fire on them when they get in range (since the Anjenya doesn't have the bandwidth to cover them as well)

Oh, guess I never found that out because i've never managed to even put a dint in the Medea's beams in the first place
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 02, 2017, 11:02:04 am
I have no idea if it's still possible. The Paveway nerf might've made it too difficult.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on September 02, 2017, 02:50:13 pm
Even in the initial release it was fairly difficult to disarm the Medea and the Hood in time, requiring perfect timing.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on September 23, 2017, 01:46:50 pm
How can I beat The Plunder on difficult?

I guess a good way is to kill Libra asap. That's not easy, though. Disarming cruisers is practically impossible. Gamma is not really helpfull in anyhing (seemingly), except disarming the Siren.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 23, 2017, 02:43:22 pm
On what difficulty?

Edit: oh, right. I recall that mission's pretty hard above medium. Disarm the siren before it can fire, focus on weapons subsystems, don't get caught in beam/pulse range for long. Use wingmates on the auroras.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 23, 2017, 02:55:29 pm
Fly slightly behind your wing and lock onto the siren straight from the front to avoid its pulses having a firing angle on your paveways, wait for your wing to launch then try to launch as soon as they do.
Usually this will happen after beta goes to distract the fighters, empty your entire paveway reserve, don't stop firing until your banks are empty and spread them out across the 3 MBlues.

80% of the time this will result in all 3 MBlues being destroyed, if any are left you can close in for primaries but don't mess up the angle or you'll get torn apart by pulse fire. Go slightly from above to avoid the cruisers then fly down until you're basically facing down the beams head-on.
Engage reverse thrust to maintain distance and fire away until you clean up the beams.

After that you can try luring in the fighters near your capships or if you have the balls just lure them into open space and dogfight them there. Just don't slow down when a nyx is nearby, it can tear you apart from full health in around 1 second if its secondaries connect.

After that you can safely ignore the beams on the corvettes, their DPS isn't high enough to threaten your frigates. Once the Siren goes in for guns its pulses will start targetting the capships and stop targetting you. Try to clear the fighters before she closes in, then you're free to tear its weapons apart one by one since they won't be shooting back at you.
As long as you don't forget to disable the Anemoi when ordered the mission should play itself from this point on.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on September 24, 2017, 01:07:48 pm
On what difficulty?
Oops, I mean on hard difficulty. With FrikgFeek's approach I could just beat the mission, but it was still a very close call with the Yangtze finishing at 12% hull integrity. The Siren ist still extremely dangerous, even without beams.

What exactly does killing weapons subsystems do?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on September 24, 2017, 01:38:05 pm
I think it screws up aiming turrets and AAA beams.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 24, 2017, 03:24:05 pm
Yes, and it'll lower the Siren's turret ROF due to electronic warfare effects.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: SF-Junky on September 27, 2017, 01:35:07 pm
Whooooho.

Just come back from two ultra successful runs. One with The Plunder again. Yesterday a tried that mission a dozen times (possible more) with FrikgFeek's approach and always failed miserably. Today I used Gamma to disarm the Siren and went directly for the Agincourt's engines. Then I killed the cruisers weapons systems, again taking help from Gamma. Worked very well. Meanwhile Alpha and Beta were very successful at killing enemy fighters. I also managed to destroy Siren's weapons subsystem, but I would've won easily without that.

Then I tried Aristeia on hard and it went as smooth as never before. Although I didn't do anything new. Just keep feeling bad about Torpedo Two. :(
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on September 27, 2017, 01:45:10 pm
Huh. Always worked for me on Insane. Maybe the weaker AI on the lower difficulties can't be trusted to lob missiles at the Siren. Or maybe it's the firerate restrictions they get below insane that slows down their paveway volleys.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on December 30, 2017, 08:50:05 pm
Well, I decided to take another go at this, after several years hiatus playing combat flight sims. This and various other campaigns and mods have really caught my eye!

Seem to have hit a bit of a hiccup though. I picked up the Steam version of FS2, figure it's the most up to date. Ditto the latest and greatest of FSO, which appears to be 3.7.4, unless I missed a link somewhere? ANYWAYS, I can get into the game for AoA, but can't seem to click CONTINUE after the initial command brief. As for War in Heaven, I get MANY popup errors, basically very similar to below, although the majority seem to have to do wiht UEF being an invalid species. Everything's freshly installed, openAL is installed, all that fun stuff, and yet... I get below, or can't get past the initial command brief. Anyone have any thoughts?

Too many icons in icons.tbl; only the first 105 will be used
ntdll.dll! ZwWaitForSingleObject + 21 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! SCP_DumpStack + 354 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! Warning + 491 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! brief_parse_icon_tbl + 272 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! game_init + 1650 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! game_main + 524 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! WinMain + 328 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! invoke_main + 30 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! __scrt_common_main_seh + 346 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! __scrt_common_main + 13 bytes
fs2_open_3_7_4_SSE2-DEBUG.exe! WinMainCRTStartup + 8 bytes
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 99 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 54 bytes
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 31, 2017, 06:25:40 am
Try using 3.8.0 or a recent nightly. 3.7.4 is way out of date.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: tomimaki on December 31, 2017, 07:17:32 am
Please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 31, 2017, 10:27:03 am
Please post your fs2_open.log file.  Instructions on how to do this can be found in this post.

This should help us clear it right up.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on December 31, 2017, 12:21:46 pm
An update. Got 3.8.0 and now the game starts up perfectly normally, but even though I have mods selected, it just starts in vanilla. Tried the standard EXE as well as a debug EXE, with various mods (Blue Planet, War in Heaven, Aftermath) but the only campaign available is the stock FS2 campaign. Most interesting!

I've also tried using the standard launcher as well as wxlauncher. All wxlauncher does when picking a mod is crash, and not start the game.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 31, 2017, 12:25:24 pm
Get us that debug log and we can probably figure it out.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on December 31, 2017, 01:13:53 pm
Here it is. Trying to run Blue Planet Age of Aquarius here.

[attachment stolen by Russian hackers]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhymes on December 31, 2017, 01:47:02 pm
For starters, it looks like you're not using the latest version of Blue Planet nor the MediaVPs. All the Blue Planet VPs should be in one folder called bpcomplete, and you should be using the 2014 MediaVPs. Please make sure you followed the instructions  in this post.
 (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90802.msg=1801659)

When you're finished, you should have a folder called bpcomplete, and a folder called MediaVPs_2014 in your Freespace 2 root directory.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on December 31, 2017, 02:40:45 pm
Ah! That seems to have helped, thank you. I still get the odd popup, but I'm not terribly worried about it. It seems to work.... right up until I want to continue past the initial command briefing, for both Age of Aquarius and War in Heaven. At that point, I can't proceed, the CONTINUE button does nothing for me. Logfile attached.

[attachment stolen by Russian hackers]
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 31, 2017, 03:02:38 pm
According to that log you're still using mediavps_3612. These are like 10 years out of date and don't work with more recent mods. You need to use mediaVPs_2014.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on December 31, 2017, 03:15:56 pm
I've got the right mediaVPs, I swear. Downloaded them from the thread for them a couple days ago. Also tried putting the mediaVPs in the bpcomplete folder... hasn't helped.

I downloaded Age of Aquarius and War in Heaven from Moddb; is there a more recent download I should be using? I've looked around the internets, but have not found them.

EDIT: putting all the 2014 mediaVPs in the same folder as all the blueplanet data seems to have solved my issue. DURRR

Many thanks for the pointers, all!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhymes on December 31, 2017, 03:21:00 pm
MediaVPs most definitely should NOT be in the bpcomplete folder. They like having their own folder in the root FS2 directory all to themselves.

It looks like your mod.ini file in bpcomplete is wrong. Open it up in notepad and replace the text starting with [multimod] with this

Code: [Select]
[multimod]
primarylist  = ;
secondarylist = mediavps_2014;
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on December 31, 2017, 03:24:09 pm
Doesn't matter if you have them if your mod.ini isn't set up to actually use them. The log clearly states you're not using them.

The ModDB version is unfortunately pretty out of date at this point, I now see why you're having so many problems. You're actually still using a really old version where AoA and WiH were seperate and you seem to have just put the files in one folder. Use the more recent bpcomplete.

The most recent version is here (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=90802.0)
The thread should be pinned on this board so it's impossible to miss.

That release thread still links to 3.7.4 but you should be using 3.8.0 anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 01, 2018, 02:26:03 pm
Yeah the ModDB stuff is way out of date (you wouldn't even get the BP2 voice acting!) You can use fsoinstaller.com as well as the thread frikgfeek linked to install the latest version.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on January 02, 2018, 04:35:37 pm
Indeed! And the voice acting just completes the experience!

On to the second part now, and everything works fine except for the voice-overs... of which there are none. Not a huge deal, unless you guys'd like to see another logfile?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: xenocartographer on January 02, 2018, 04:55:07 pm
If you're referring to Tenebra, that isn't voiced yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on January 02, 2018, 05:00:21 pm
Ah, I've made it past that one and am on to the second, so no big deal.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 02, 2018, 07:02:16 pm
Ah, I've made it past that one and am on to the second, so no big deal.

Wait, what? All the missions up to Sunglare (the cutscene with the Indus at the sun) should be voiced.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on January 02, 2018, 07:06:28 pm
Ah, I've made it past that one and am on to the second, so no big deal.

Wait, what? All the missions up to Sunglare (the cutscene with the Indus at the sun) should be voiced.

Oh, THOSE! Yes, they are all voiced. I meant the ones AFTER that, in Part 2. Haven't noticed any voice-overs there yet...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 03, 2018, 07:56:13 pm
It's slightly confusing, but the "War in Heaven 2" campaign is actually act 3 (a.k.a. Tenebra).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on January 03, 2018, 08:50:18 pm
Right. Act 3 doesn't seem to have any voice-over.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Torchwood on January 07, 2018, 09:14:55 am
Not yet, anyway.

Wonder what the Fedayeen would sound like. Falconer, in my mind, would have an always-angry contralto, something like an irate Courtenay Taylor. Kovacs, he'd be a stoic baritone like Elias Toufexis or Tom Hall. Vidaura, she'd be the most serene, with a lovely high-pitched voice and a smile that hides a knife or ten. Al-Da'wa... I dunno... voice-of-the-legion thing? Or kind of a more ominous sounding version of Al-Fadil from AoA?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: xenocartographer on January 07, 2018, 04:28:30 pm
I imagined Al'da-wa switching voices every time it talks to you. :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snarks on January 07, 2018, 04:40:15 pm
I like the idea of the Fedayeen sounding like normal people for the most part. They're supposed to be sociopaths, who normally have to hide their anti-social tendencies from people. They shouldn't sound menacing, but they should definitely say some pretty crazy stuff.

I would say Falconer should sound like Kendra Shaw from Battlestar Galactica Razor. Al-Da'wa is stated to have different voices depending on whoever is speaking for him, although it would help in a narrative perspective for there to be a "primary" Al-Da'wa.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hjolnai on January 18, 2018, 05:04:53 am
Did Admiral Steele deliberately hand over the Agincourt to the Federation?

This would serve several purposes:
1) It lets him create a trusted source "leaking" to the Federation. Considering that same source lured the Wargods into the Carthage-Imperieuse trap...
2) It gives him a chance to take down Federation ships trying to hold the Agincourt (i.e. it's a catalyst to create a favourable engagement).
3) His objective extends beyond the war. The Federation gaining new technology at this stage won't make a difference in the war, but it will make their post-war uptake a bit faster - the Shivans are the real enemy.

More dubiously:
4) He may have some insight into Shambhala, and want it to proceed using the Agincourt's resources.
5) It may advance his political agenda back home, perhaps pushing through the logistics deal with the Vasudans.

So, he has three good reasons and two unlikely reasons to give the Federation an Anemoi.
His ships' actions seem to bear this out:
1) In Aristeia, the GTVA force does not attempt to sabotage or destroy the intrasystem gate. Certainly, destroying the gate too soon would let the frigates escape, but once the frigates were engaged there was no reason not to. (This is what gave me the idea in the first place)
2) The Agincourt does not apply any scorched-earth equivalent protocols. I'd expect the GTVA to be more consistent in applying those than the Federation.
3) The captive Agincourt crew sabotage some of the fighters, but not enough to make the Federation abandon the mission. This is consistent with wanting a confrontation rather than just getting the ship back.

On the other hand, there's some evidence against this:
1) Agincourt does play its trick with the escape pods.
2) Steele risks a large portion of his fleet and loses considerable assets. Assuming Calder didn't lose too many ships in his own engagement, the ship-killing objective doesn't seem to have paid off.

Also, maybe I should have posted this to the Oracle thread - but I'm wondering whether other people read it this way too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 18, 2018, 06:58:35 am
It's a really interesting idea, but I think it's a level of 24-dimensional chess which pushes Steele a little far beyond credibility. He's very, very good at leveraging coincidences to secure his political standing, but actually arranging the loss of an entire logistics ship feels maybe too outre even for him.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 18, 2018, 11:13:04 am
the impression I got is that the loss of the Agincourt was not intentional, but that the leak was detected and then leveraged for the Wargods trap (IIRC the leaker was Rear Admiral Carey).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: xenocartographer on January 18, 2018, 12:26:52 pm
the impression I got is that the loss of the Agincourt was not intentional, but that the leak was detected and then leveraged for the Wargods trap (IIRC the leaker was Rear Admiral Carey).

There's a bit of prose somewhere or other that makes this explicit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nissan on January 18, 2018, 09:47:59 pm
the impression I got is that the loss of the Agincourt was not intentional, but that the leak was detected and then leveraged for the Wargods trap (IIRC the leaker was Rear Admiral Carey).

There's a bit of prose somewhere or other that makes this explicit.

It was in the "Conversations during War in Heaven" (https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=70645.0) post from right before the WiH release. Rear Admiral Carey was the source in the GTVA who leaked the Agincourt's jump schedule to the Wargods. Eventually it was traced back to her, but instead of just throwing her in prison, they forced her to start feeding the Wargods bad intel.

The UEF decided to attack the Carthage because they believed the Imperieuse was still resupplying in Delta Serpentis several weeks after the blitz. With the Imperieuse out of play, they had the numbers to tie down Steele's other destroyers and leave the Carthage wide open. So they committed everything to what they believed would be a decisive blow.

They had no reason to doubt Carey after she delivered them the Agincourt... and Steele was counting on that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hjolnai on January 19, 2018, 02:52:49 am
Yes, I guess I'm reaching a bit too far. This information on Rear Admiral Carey makes it clear that Steele didn't leak the Agincourt's location himself. I still don't have a compelling reason for the GTVA force to not destroy or sabotage the gate in Aristeia, though.

The best explanation I can think of is the Hood's captain deferring to a standing order about not destroying undefended civilian infrastructure, and Steele not directly countermanding it. He was rather busy elsewhere, after all.

An alternative explanation is that the gate was indeed mined, and the mines were found and disarmed after Laporte left the field but before the Agincourt jumps (I don't remember whether it can jump before you do).

From the perspective of game design it makes perfect sense though. Dealing with any of that would disrupt the flow of an excellent mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 19, 2018, 11:33:25 am
I figured the gate wasn't destroyed because the Hood's CO had every reason to believe that two Karunas would be easy kills for the forces he had, and by the time UEF victory was obviously possible, it was too late.

The Medea in particular could have butchered the UEF forces on its own if it hadn't been for Laporte's tev comm unit.  Blind luck saved the Wargods.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: gyeprefos on February 02, 2018, 01:05:19 pm
Hey guys,

Just finished the currently released WiH content, and holy hell it was fantastic! I had way more fun playing this than with most of the AAA games out there. It is truly heartwarming to see that an almost 20 years old game, which is among my childhood favourites, is still alive.

Can I ask about the progress of act 4 and the voice acting for act 3? I'm really looking forward to them  :)

P.S.: I loved the Hungarian names for the two stations and the fedayeen pilot! :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on February 02, 2018, 03:15:39 pm
No Act 3 voice acting planned, I don't have the money and it'd take a LOT of time which I think we'd rather spend on act 4-5.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: basilisk135 on April 16, 2018, 02:26:02 am
So I've been playing act 3, and got to the mission with Sam Bei making a comeback, and all of his dialog is voiced. Did you guys only do VA for him, or is all of act 3 finally VAed and I just didn't install something correctly?

Cheers
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 16, 2018, 09:33:45 am
Just him.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on April 21, 2018, 05:01:45 am
So gentlemen, we all know you made a masterpiece, but lately something nagged at me.
GTVA claimed Ubuntu has made the UEF weak and unable to adequatly defend against the Shivans.
And now we're at war. While the initial force of the 14th foundered, the 13th took over. A battlegroup of Capella era ships.
But while they fought a conventional war, Steele came in and the blitz happened.
Beam jamming is a thing, but as seen in one intro, one out of three beams hit and the UEF don't have nearly enough Oculus ships to do this.
So, we know that the blitz damaged UEF infrastructure, but with the jumpdrives avaiable and TEI ships designed to mimick Shivan tactis... why not use them that way?
Serk is a good example: Jump in, charge beams, fire a signle time and then jump out.
The TEVs don't need to destroy FED ships, they just need to damage them repeatedly, spread Shivan inspired terror and force the UEF to divert critical resources to repair badly damaged ships.
A destroyed ship is a blow to moral, but badly amaged ships sitting in shipyards for repair should realy wittle the Feds down.

Just my two cents thou^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on April 21, 2018, 04:34:05 pm
Not a bad thought, Crizza.

From what I rememebr reading, it wasn't just that Ubuntu was a philosophy of peace and enlightenment that made the UEF unable to truly withstand a major incursion like what happened at Capella, but it was also the UEF's economic model, custom-tailored over decades to balance out the GDP of a single system. Any additional territories of significant size, the GTVA analysts believed, would drastically mess up their economic models, again, leaving them vulnerable to a high-intensity war of attrition.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhymes on April 22, 2018, 02:18:42 am
Also, you know, MORPHEUS.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Bryan See on May 31, 2018, 05:46:24 pm
Total occupation of Sol by GTVA forces.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on June 02, 2018, 02:21:57 am
THIS!

IS!

SPARTAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TheTuninator on September 04, 2018, 02:56:19 am
I just finished Delenda Est, and wow. I've been planning to play BP for years, and I'm very glad I finally did. This has become Freespace 3 to me - I can't imagine anything else, now.

I feel a bit guilty to admit it, but I can't stop myself from rooting for the GTVA, even when they're toasting Karunas left and right. Maybe my recent playthrough of FS2 retail is coloring my sympathies more strongly than I expected. I was thrilled when the Imperieuse jumped in, even though I'm also tremendously attached to the UEF characters thanks to the fantastic writing. How conflicting!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 04, 2018, 05:31:10 am
So gentlemen, we all know you made a masterpiece, but lately something nagged at me.
GTVA claimed Ubuntu has made the UEF weak and unable to adequatly defend against the Shivans.
And now we're at war. While the initial force of the 14th foundered, the 13th took over. A battlegroup of Capella era ships.
But while they fought a conventional war, Steele came in and the blitz happened.
Beam jamming is a thing, but as seen in one intro, one out of three beams hit and the UEF don't have nearly enough Oculus ships to do this.
So, we know that the blitz damaged UEF infrastructure, but with the jumpdrives avaiable and TEI ships designed to mimick Shivan tactis... why not use them that way?
Serk is a good example: Jump in, charge beams, fire a signle time and then jump out.
The TEVs don't need to destroy FED ships, they just need to damage them repeatedly, spread Shivan inspired terror and force the UEF to divert critical resources to repair badly damaged ships.
A destroyed ship is a blow to moral, but badly amaged ships sitting in shipyards for repair should realy wittle the Feds down.

Just my two cents thou^^

How the conflict is not an "instant" victory for the GTVA despite having a vastly, VASTLY superior military overall is that they are only sending the forces that can be spared. The GTVA is a military society, rightfully paranoid and ruthless in dealing with threats both foreign and domestic. The overwhelming majority of their heavy destroyer and top of the line warships are garrisoning other systems against local insurgents, and anti-Shivan patrols. In addition, nearly none of the Vasudans are involved, allowing the Terrans to settle an "internal dispute" over the government of the Sol system.

There is also only one way in and out of the Sol system, and the UEF defeats handed to the GTVA are primarily tactical ones, not strategic. The best they can do is bloody the nose of the invasion and hope for a negotiated peace. 

As for the tactics, there is a minimum amount of time need to charge subspace jumps. That number is never specified, but not even Shivans jump their warships in, fire one salvo, and retreat. It doesn't work that way in Freespace at the current tech level.

Beam jamming is likewise a temporary stalling measure. It is not a true counter to beam artillery, and it also bears repeating that the conflict in Sol does not occur over a period of years, but months. I'm almost certain a counter to that beam jamming would be discovered quickly, because that's how military tech works. It seesaws back and forth.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 04, 2018, 07:10:27 am
My vague understanding is the gate can sustain a certain amount of tonnage per day, and the GTVA is maxxing that out in terms of the number of ships they can put into the field and keep repaired and supplied.  They have no qualms about sending **** tons of ships in at this point, and as I understand it they intend to intentionally overextend logistically like three days after tenebra to end the war quickly (i believe the vengeance and one other destroyer group are waiting on the other side of the node).

There is some vague implication that stealing UEF infrastructure and deploying logistics ships helps massively with the maximum sustainable number of ships.  I suppose repairs become cheaper in some way if you can set up more permanent shipyard facilities (possibly they just dont need to waste as much of their throughput on jumping warships back and forth through the node for repair and resupply in delta serpentis).

As for why serkr isn't just jumping in, melting some poor frigates face off, and then sprint driving the heck out of dodge, I too am kept awake with this question (kek).  It seems like that's unlikely to represent a big hit to their ability to do their jobs as a deterrent since they presumably wouldn't take much damage and the UEF generally doesn't seem to have the ships to spare to strike back without getting punished for it at this point.  I think that unlike the GTVA, they have a much harder time doing horrific levels of damage in the time it takes a TEI corvette's drives to cycle.  I remember some briefing or something mentioning that Steele doesn't want an escalation into some climactic final battle before he is ready, since there is a slim chance the UEF might win that.  However, it seems at this point that such an escalation would very likely result in overwhelming GTVA victory, even if not all of their ships are ready to go.  On the other hand, Steele has been pretty thoroughly painted as a perfectionist, so quite possibly this is his personal flaws coming through in insisting on a perfect solution instead of just brutally slitting the UEF's throat at this point.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on September 04, 2018, 01:50:14 pm
First Fleet still has horrifying bomber reserves, and if you've tested them in FRED you can see how they will absolutely mince even next-gen destroyers that aren't fully prepared with escorts, ECM, new-ass capship countermeasures, etc.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 04, 2018, 05:30:51 pm
The only thing that makes me doubt that is the GTVA learned the lessons of having insufficient fighter reserves during the Great War, and all Capella area Destroyers are primarily carriers first, and line combatants second. The third gen ships like the Raynor etc, are battleships, but still carry tons of fighter wings.

For the GTA, it was barely an afterthought to lose 300+ fighters during Operation Thresher against the Vasudans, where as losing a single destroyer was a horrible defeat.

Long story short, I can't see the GTVA having clawed through the Second Incursion without sending in swarms of fighters to defend their heavy hitters.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 04, 2018, 06:00:53 pm
They may well have horrifying bomber reserves, but if so I think its an open question as to whether or not they would show up to do their thing when the opportunity presented itself (thereby making themselves into an actual downside to an attack).  Not a whole lot of the things seemingly managed to show up during the blitz, or even during the jovian evacuation for that matter.  At the very least, not enough of them to inflict massive losses on the tevs.

To be honest I have been beginning to suspect that the black project ships that have been disappearing into classified deployment land aren't even in Sol at the moment, which may explain the problems first fleet is having in actually fielding enough hardware for offensive and defensive ops.  This whole 'we are holding them back in reserve' as everyone screams bloody murder to not do that in general looks a lot like big wartime expenditures on secret projects that in the very least make more sense than their unclassified explanation gives them credit for.  A world war 1 example: the huge amounts of money going into a 30 caliber pistol for the US military which turned out to be hundreds of thousands of pederson devices.  Its not clear that they would have been as effective as hoped, a lot of money went into it, and people were very very angry, but it certainly had way more promise than a new sidearm.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on September 04, 2018, 06:22:52 pm
We certainly didn't see them at Rheza Station, but the scale of the Blitz implies they must have been in use somewhere. And despite the heavy blows taken during the Blitz itself, the UEF still has enough war fighting capacity to not totally collapse within a few weeks. They are still on the losing end of the war, much like Japan in 1943, but they can still make the fight hard for the Tevs.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 04, 2018, 07:09:58 pm
Sure, but the UEF was complaining about pretty heavy strikecraft attrition after that, and if I recall correctly the valerie was actually the biggest warship the tevs lost in the blitz, which wasn't even killed by UEF bomber reserves.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snarks on September 05, 2018, 03:50:05 am
Sure, but the UEF was complaining about pretty heavy strikecraft attrition after that, and if I recall correctly the valerie was actually the biggest warship the tevs lost in the blitz, which wasn't even killed by UEF bomber reserves.

It might be the biggest warship lost, but that doesn't mean all the other ships didn't take a major pounding that put them out of commission for a bit.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 08, 2018, 01:19:57 am
Lore question: What sort of ideologies and cultural/political/philosophical movements exist in BPverse besides Ubuntu, and how much influence have Terran and Vasudan scholarship and high culture had on each other? Do Vasudans read Hegel? Do Tev social sciences undergrads read the Vasudan classics? Are there Vasudan communists? Terran dissidents inspired by the Hammer of Light?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starbug on September 09, 2018, 08:36:38 pm
I have a lore question, What is the lore behind the Hecate mk2, since it has no tech description of anykind. Is it one of a kind ship, or are all Hecate's being refitted to the mk2?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 09, 2018, 10:42:01 pm
From what I recall it was just an upgraded version of the Hecate, similar to the F-18E Super Hornet or M1A2 Abrams. I don't think they were supposed to be unique.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on September 10, 2018, 05:33:35 pm
It's not unique, no.  It's an upgrade package to modernize the Hecate.  New weapons, new armor, new sensors, new command and control equipment, that sort of stuff.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 11, 2018, 08:03:21 am
The tevs need to deliver a non persistent nerve agent to Earth.  Something that will wipe out the buntu and then burn itself out after a few weeks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on September 11, 2018, 10:36:19 am
And the whole population with it? Would solve the political theory danger thingy thou^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 11, 2018, 11:19:44 am
That was the idea.  Clean slate.  Free infrastructure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 11, 2018, 12:04:34 pm
That was the idea.  Clean slate.  Free infrastructure.

But the UEF has also has the tech to do the same with GTVA (stealth fighters, atleast).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 11, 2018, 01:43:29 pm
I think they'd have a harder time getting to the allied world's with a feasible payload undetected.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on September 11, 2018, 02:01:55 pm
Probably; I don't know how many of these Ainsharii? things they have, and how many would be necessary to wipe out an entire planet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Hjolnai on September 11, 2018, 03:02:29 pm
Genocide on that scale is thankfully not an option for either power. To use such methods is to collapse into civil war (the Terrans are already demoralized too badly to survive the guilt of murdering Earth, while the Federation derives its legitimacy almost entirely from benevolence). In addition, everyone should know the next Shivan incursion is a possibility, and they need an intact population for military and industrial personnel.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 12, 2018, 05:11:29 am
There's no political point to it. You don't sterilize a place you're trying to capture intact and control. It's a dumb idea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on September 12, 2018, 06:14:46 am
There's no political point to it. You don't sterilize a place you're trying to capture intact and control. It's a dumb idea.



Actually that's the perfect reason to do just that.

That's a dumb statement.

If you mean "OCCUPY" as in captive population then that's a different kettle of fish. But you didn't say it.

What's your regiment btw "manwiththemaxhinegun"?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on September 12, 2018, 11:14:12 am
Besides, the Fedayeen wanted to bomb Delta Serpentis with antimatter bombs. Not sure if they meant the station at the gate or the actual planet :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 12, 2018, 03:29:50 pm
It raises the risk of retaliation in kind, and it's an afterthought. We know the NTF committed acts of genocide against the Vasudan people, and yet both the Vasudan and Terrans of the GTVA in FS2 explicitly state they will follow the rules of war of BETAC.

Cheating those rules is a thing that happens in war, you have SOC conducting assassinations in the like. But a magic chemical attack on a planet with several billion people is not going to get suppressed in its information. It would trigger exactly the kind of civil unrest and turmoil the GTVA is terrified of.

It's not a military reference, but a musical one if you're curious.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: themaddin on September 15, 2018, 04:46:38 pm
Hello everyone,
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this,
but can I use BP with the new MediaVPs 3.8.1 or do I need exactly the 2014 release?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on September 15, 2018, 11:05:37 pm
There's no political point to it. You don't sterilize a place you're trying to capture intact and control. It's a dumb idea.

Wasn't the original plan of the GTVA to basically hold beam cannons to the UEF's head (Earth) and say "surrender now"?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 17, 2018, 05:44:44 pm
There's a big difference between pulling the trigger and threatening to pull the trigger. That's the entire basis of our own nuclear weapons theory.

If needed, worst case, specific military bases or cities could be nuked, forcing capitulation. In reality, very very few governments wouldn't surrender if given an ultimatum like that with no ability to counter.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on September 17, 2018, 05:46:13 pm
Hello everyone,
I'm not sure if this is the right place to ask this,
but can I use BP with the new MediaVPs 3.8.1 or do I need exactly the 2014 release?

I believe I asked and they're not used in BP as of yet.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Woolie Wool on September 20, 2018, 02:39:39 pm
There's no political point to it. You don't sterilize a place you're trying to capture intact and control. It's a dumb idea.

Wasn't the original plan of the GTVA to basically hold beam cannons to the UEF's head (Earth) and say "surrender now"?

The GTVA's reasoning was (a) their show of force would be so overwhelmingly terrifying that (in their calculation) it was extremely unlikely the UEF would call their bluff and (b) since they would already be in position, the issue would become moot before anyone had time to think about what the Tevs just did. And whatever happens, MORPHEUS must proceed, no matter the consequences. These calculations could be entirely wrong, and thanks to the Vishnans we will never know if they were or not, but those are the ones they made. Once their initial gambit fell through there would no longer be an opportunity to make such a threat without immediate, catastrophic political consequences, and it would be much more likely the UEF would ignore it and fight to the bitter end. At this point, glassing cities would make the UEF less likely to surrender.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on September 21, 2018, 07:19:20 am
Thats kindof a good point about glassing cities, honestly as far as I know they mainly don't contribute that much industry anymore (a lot of it is giant masses of machinery) so blowing people up would quite possibly only serve to piss them off.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on September 21, 2018, 10:51:55 am
Apart from third fleet, nothing was combat ready, if I remember correctly.
So they could've jumped the HQs and massacre the gunline... now that's an idea for a nightmare mission :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on October 05, 2018, 11:38:19 pm
Basically if you're going to fight a war of extermination, you better go ALL THE WAY. Because if anyone survives, you can expect a generational jihad the likes of which will make you wish you never tried.

But it's academic, since the GTVA isn't fighting a war of extermination. At least intentionally. Accidents (and falling rocks) can happen. But one of the GTVA's main goals is the acquisition of Earth's resources and science/manufacturing centers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on October 08, 2018, 09:16:45 am
Idle thought, has there been any thought on what happens next in the story?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on October 09, 2018, 04:57:57 am
If the outro is any indication, we should see the big assault of Steele.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on October 09, 2018, 07:09:56 am
Idle thought, has there been any thought on what happens next in the story?


We play as Nabirasul, aka the Jester.

If the outro is any indication, we should see the big assault of Steele.

Also this
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on October 09, 2018, 01:54:01 pm
Hard to believe that the Emperors confidant and advisor is a fighterjockey in the civil war :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on October 09, 2018, 02:12:19 pm
Hard to believe that the Emperors confidant and advisor is a fighterjockey in the civil war :D

Aliens be alien. What makes sense to a human and a vasudan are clearly different.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: JoeBalls on October 10, 2018, 02:27:59 pm
If the outro is any indication, we should see the big assault of Steele.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Bryan See on October 12, 2018, 12:47:36 pm
Idle thought, has there been any thought on what happens next in the story?


We play as Nabirasul, aka the Jester.

If the outro is any indication, we should see the big assault of Steele.

Also this

And then thousands of years after that, an epilogue that helps answer questions raised in Blue Planet. Among many questions will be answered in the epilogue is what if there was a time before the Shivans, and what happened to the first life in the universe, the children of the dawn.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on October 12, 2018, 12:51:10 pm
While you can make your own stories out of that as you like, I'd presume that the BP team has their own idea how these questions would be solved...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 12, 2018, 01:33:41 pm
Hard to believe that the Emperors confidant and advisor is a fighterjockey in the civil war :D

Nabirasul doesn't show up until after the last two acts of BP2 (he's the BP3 protagonist).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Bryan See on October 12, 2018, 01:58:53 pm
While you can make your own stories out of that as you like, I'd presume that the BP team has their own idea how these questions would be solved...
BP is a logical conclusion to the FreeSpace saga. Shattered Stars, while separate from the BP continuity, serves as the epilogue.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on October 12, 2018, 02:22:22 pm
Nah, it isn't. What doesn't mean it wouldn't be awesome. But for example, BP split the role of the Shivans - preservers and destroyers - with the Vishnans. Also, Volition probably would never did kinda-metaphysical things like Nagari.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on October 12, 2018, 04:05:00 pm
I still see the whole preservers/destroyers thing as mainly alien propaganda.  They both supposedly have the same goal, the shivans are just more willing to kill everything (as of AoA anyhow, roles may have since reversed.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on October 12, 2018, 04:40:24 pm
The destroyers/preservers thingy might also be just misinformation fed to Bei the younger by the Vishnans. Who knows? To me, Shiva/Vishnu always seemed like a different kind of relation (or not being a symbol of a concept at all).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on October 13, 2018, 04:37:08 am
The destroyers/preservers thingy might also be just misinformation fed to Bei the younger by the Vishnans. Who knows? To me, Shiva/Vishnu always seemed like a different kind of relation (or not being a symbol of a concept at all).

As in the Aspect Swarm?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 13, 2018, 11:54:22 am
Started playing through WiH again, what a difference va makes! Really digging all the new assets too. I was wondering - Byrne is very conservative when it comes to deploying Durgas and other heavy firepower assets, while Calder is less so. To what extent did the Jovians smack Severanti around while he was trying to gain a foothold?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: rubixcube on October 22, 2018, 01:43:49 am
To what extent did the Jovians smack Severanti around while he was trying to gain a foothold?

From what I've read in the back story, quite a bit.
Severanti was "fighting an uphill battle" for the first year of the war; trying to whittle down UEF fleet assets while taking as few losses in return. It was basically a stalemate until Steele arrived.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 22, 2018, 03:30:50 pm
I'm on Aristeia and I'm having problems killing the Medea's beams. I've got 6 paveways and they're giving me really mixed results. On one run I launched all 6 at one beam and got it down to 15%. On another I killed the beam with just 2 (although the Sanctus' might have helped) and this is while using afterburner and launching close to prevent them getting shot down (I tried launching from afar, but they seem to get shot down really easily). Likewise, the turret strike wing, gunship wing, bombers, basically any of the reinforcements really struggle to kill even one beam, I don't think I've seen them do it once after 7 attempts. They also struggle to bring down the Medea to anything below 80% hull if I forego the disarm or destroy subsystem order. I always wait for it to slow down after jumping too, just to eliminate that as a factor.

This is on normal and I understand the ai is much better than it was, but this seems really punishing. I've tried lobbing paveways at different angles and distances - abeam, astern, directly from the front etc. She's just unstoppable, she guts the Indus no matter what I try. I haven't used Stilettos yet so I might give it a shot. I'm hoping someone else can chime in and tell me what I'm doing wrong.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on October 22, 2018, 03:50:20 pm
Just instead of methodically attempting to disarm this ship (IIRC the one swarm missile with aspect lock is better with this since they can't be shot down), just somehow survive till you can call in the reinforcements and then just call in all the heavy bombers you can to her underside, these guys will delete the corvette in a moment's notice.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on October 22, 2018, 03:51:50 pm
Your Paveways might be getting shot down.  They gain the bomb flag when they get close enough to their target, and the Diomedes has a TT2 right next to the beam cannons.

Also note that the dish (the glowy bit) is the turret.  The housing is considered ship hull.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Buckshee Rounds on October 22, 2018, 04:59:43 pm
Just instead of methodically attempting to disarm this ship (IIRC the one swarm missile with aspect lock is better with this since they can't be shot down), just somehow survive till you can call in the reinforcements and then just call in all the heavy bombers you can to her underside, these guys will delete the corvette in a moment's notice.

This was the very first thing I tried and they got killed disturbingly quick, even when I sent in interceptors first to break up her fighter screen. I'll try again later.

EDIT: Tried it there, did as you suggested and went way below Medea. Durgas slapped her about and took her down! Thanks for the advice! I had to dance with those bloody Perseus all the live long day though, they seemed to do their job really really well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on November 05, 2018, 10:29:22 am
Replaying BP with all the new gimmicks. The lighting and everything... beautifull.
But I'm morally stuck at "For the wrong reasons".
Part of me wants the Rooks to sorvive, the other don't want to kill the TEVs :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on November 05, 2018, 04:03:01 pm
It's possible for your wingmen to survive no problem. IIRC you just need to stay put and let half of Tev fighters fly up to you and only then you should engage them, 3v3 is more favorable to you than 3v5. The other half of success is good flying and good loadout (can't remember if you can change it).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 21, 2018, 01:35:40 pm
So, we know that the Phoenicia and Vengance are in Sol as part of Steeles build up for the big bang. But weren't one or even two Erebus/Titan teams mentioned as going to reinforce Steele too?
Just asking for that little forum game :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on December 21, 2018, 01:55:16 pm
So, we know that the Phoenicia and Vengance are in Sol as part of Steeles build up for the big bang. But weren't one or even two Erebus/Titan teams mentioned as going to reinforce Steele too?
Just asking for that little forum game :D
From the Command Briefing for Eyes in the Storm:
Quote
The destroyers Vengeance and Phoenicia have transited the node. We believe the Implacable and Agamemnon are also being moved into position. It is possible the Pallas and the Ilium are also en route from Epsilon Pegasi, but no confirmation has reached us
The Pallas and Ilium are a Titan/Hecate pair, but the Implacable and Agamemnon are a Titan/Erebus pair.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on December 21, 2018, 07:34:04 pm
The Pallas and Ilium are a Titan/Hecate pair, but the Implacable and Agamemnon are a Titan/Erebus pair.

Meanwhile, in GTVA high command:

(https://i.imgur.com/A0fvGAy.png)

I get that the UEF will be doing its thing before they arrive, but still.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 30, 2018, 03:51:40 am
Is there any reason that instead of resupplying, the supplyship just turns in circles with the Gorgon?

And what the hell is wrong with the Balrog? Equip this weapon on a Draco and it absolutely shreds through anything.
Oh, and I don't know if the Bifrost is there for cutscene reasons or not... but I find it rather lacking in punch.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 30, 2018, 10:47:44 am
You're not really supposed to be using any of those yet, I don't think.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on December 30, 2018, 11:21:20 am
We all like a Fred dabbble though don't we  ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on December 30, 2018, 12:34:36 pm
You're not really supposed to be using any of those yet, I don't think.
Granted, I used the Bifrost and Gorgon in Her finest Hour 2.

But the Draco armed with the Balrog is avaiable in Universal Truth Steele Remix.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 30, 2018, 01:44:06 pm
If the Bifrost is weak right now that's probably because it is hard as hell/impossible to intercept.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Erebus Alpha on December 31, 2018, 06:52:47 pm
Daaaamn, three Titans in the Sol theater?! At once?! The GTVA could burn all three UEF destroyers in three minutes.

UEF strikecraft may be really good, but the Imperiuse blitzed Earth and Luna with its air wing alone. Now imagine all those strikecraft condensed into one place. A Solaris would have trouble getting even one torpedo through that.

The Erebus may be the hip & trendy new destroyer class, but the Titan seems damn near unstoppable.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on December 31, 2018, 08:17:18 pm
No Titan can punch through plot armor!  :D
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 31, 2018, 08:46:10 pm
Check out how fast a Titan goes down to bomber attack without its ‘plot armor’ (i.e. canonical defensive systems).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on January 03, 2019, 04:55:01 pm
Wouldn't it be reasonable for GTVA to built the Titan (or at least a subtype) with heavy armor, and more point defense if that is everything needed for a perfect all-around carrier-type destroyer?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 03, 2019, 05:20:44 pm
The Titan does have heavy armor, though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on January 03, 2019, 05:35:43 pm
Speaking of subtypes, did GTVA (or pehabs UEF as it fits their doctrine better) thought about modular ships at some point? I mean something like a bigger (and hence more balanced) Mjolnir (or an addontional fighterbay) that could be mounted on their capships if the mission requires it, for which the destroyer would only serve as transporting vehicle (and maybe powersource).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on January 03, 2019, 06:47:50 pm
Actually, the Titan is semi-modular. Its fighterbay block can supposedly be replaced with a cryogenic facility.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on January 03, 2019, 07:13:04 pm
An interesting detail indeed, I wasn't aware of that. :) Yet I was wondering whether GTVA/UEF considered adaptional features useful. Something like that has been used for fighters in the campaign, but it would have much greater effect if used on warships.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Snarks on January 03, 2019, 07:16:47 pm
Actually, the Titan is semi-modular. Its fighterbay block can supposedly be replaced with a cryogenic facility.

Where does this bit of info come from?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on January 03, 2019, 07:29:06 pm
Final line of GTD Titans tech description:

Quote
Conspiracy theorists often debate whether a module exists to replace the hangar bay with a long-term habitat so the Titan could serve as a deep-space ark.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 03, 2019, 09:01:18 pm
*laughs in littoral combat ship*

Seriously though that IS a good idea, and it’d be kind of neat if ships could carry armed cargo on their dock ports...

But one big focus of the TEI designs was strategic endurance, and while that lends itself to modular and easily repaired weapon/armor mounts, it means you want your ship to be a tightly integrated and very stable piece of machinery. Big detachable mission modules (like those which have failed so badly on the LCS) and a multipurpose frame weren’t as important as having a single, reliable, easily repaired design.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on January 03, 2019, 09:33:54 pm
I actually had something like the Arcadia extensions in mind, just for moving ships. As for BP purpose I think it would've been a way for UEF to get something to counter the damage/sec potential of GTVAs beams and have their own shock jump strategy (in case their subspace drives can handle that of course) by mounting containers that fire volleys of missiles. It would've been a quick-and-dirty solution, sure, but it could work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 03, 2019, 09:44:40 pm
Strapping big things onto your warships when you depend on those same warships' robustness, maintability, and strategic agility is not necessarily a good idea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 07, 2019, 02:08:23 pm
So, with Eos being send to a tagged ship through subspace, would targeting pods work?
For the forum game I participate right now I have that fancy idea of targeting pods, installed into a secondary bank.
Tried and proven usefull in todays combat, it's just the same: Guiding a missile to the point you want it to impact, as opposed to the Eos just pummeling a warship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on January 07, 2019, 05:14:52 pm
You mean TAG missiles, I guess. They exist in FS, but in retail they were mostly used for assisting capships' AAA guns to reliably hit targets in environments where they can't target them properly.
In BP, subspace missile strikes are either vectored in by AWACS ships (examples: WiH Act 1, Collateral Damage and Darkest Hour) or by TAG missile strikes from fighters (WiH Act 2, Delenda Est).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 07, 2019, 05:34:14 pm
I know, but the Eos will just strike the target at random.
I'm speaking of have them target designated turrets or subsystems.

Edit: Gorgons are able to launch local SSM strikes as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on January 08, 2019, 12:34:30 am
I think he means more along the lines of a sniper targeting pod or something, except you are designating for some huge missile strike onto some precision part of a warship (blowing out a frigates engines, knocking out a corvettes frontal beams).

I dunno, you could have all sorts of countermeasure related excuses to claim why such a thing wouldn't be viable canonically since it isn't neccesarily all that implementable, but it sounds like a potentially fun mechanic.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on January 08, 2019, 06:49:44 am
Yeah, I'm about to use it for storytelling purposes.
Pegasi jumping in, reporting targets, painting shivan beam cannons so SSM strikes can take the beams out before allied ships jump in.
Just like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: EatThePath on January 12, 2019, 04:04:51 pm
I believe SSMs can and do actually target specific subsystems and turrets(though my relevant knowledge is from direct targeted SSMs instead of with TAGs), but the missile arrives at a randomized location so there's no guarantee that it will be able to hit the targeted part rather than some other blocking part of the target ship.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on January 18, 2019, 12:20:43 am
So wait

The people who died, they still alive.

On the sanctuary. The people who died in the war are still alive.. UEF could easily train the people on sanctuary to fight the war and literally bring people who were dead.

Eg. Capt. Genady who died... Could commander a karuna again. And engineer him not to make same mistakes or something?

It was just my thoughts....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 18, 2019, 01:51:28 am
So wait

The people who died, they still alive.

On the sanctuary. The people who died in the war are still alive.. UEF could easily train the people on sanctuary to fight the war and literally bring people who were dead.

Eg. Capt. Genady who died... Could commander a karuna again. And engineer him not to make same mistakes or something?

It was just my thoughts....

The Sanctuary doesn't have an alternate version of EVERYBODY from our universe, Bei was just lucky/Vishnan-blessed enough to meet an alternate Eriana.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on January 18, 2019, 04:19:11 am
Ooooooo

I see..
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 18, 2019, 05:45:58 am
What was the recovery time for our protagonist after her connection to cassandra?    It sounded pretty invasive.....
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on January 18, 2019, 06:20:42 am
Tbh it's pretty lucky that Eriana's parents were both on the Sanctuary, still hooked up, and managed to conceive a recognizably similar person despite completely different living circumstances.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Damage on January 21, 2019, 09:17:00 am
That trope is "In Spite of a Nail" and isn't uncommon where alternate realities are part of the story.  Its a tidy way of explaining why the mirror-Enterprise has so many familiar faces, for example.  But there are more subtle story effects as well, suggesting that a particular character is "destined" or may be "chosen" for some special task by the universe.  (This in itself is interesting given some of the theories about the Vishnan influence.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 21, 2019, 01:14:49 pm
Tbh it's pretty lucky that Eriana's parents were both on the Sanctuary, still hooked up, and managed to conceive a recognizably similar person despite completely different living circumstances.
Do we actually know Eriana's age? It's entirely possible she was born before Earth fell.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 21, 2019, 02:09:16 pm
She'd have to be over 50 by the time of AoA, wouldn't she?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: An4ximandros on January 21, 2019, 02:57:25 pm
I would not be shocked if Sanctuary-Eriana was somehow coerced by Vishnans to love Samuel to give as a reward for him for "helping" them.

There is no way the whole "we grew close almost immediately" was a coincidence.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 21, 2019, 04:41:16 pm
She'd have to be over 50 by the time of AoA, wouldn't she?
Isn't Bei at least in his 40s?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhymes on January 21, 2019, 04:45:24 pm
She'd have to be over 50 by the time of AoA, wouldn't she?

At least 50 (assuming she was born in very early 2335), yeah. Of course, between the Sanctuary's sleeper ship configuration and the possibility of 24th-century medicine extending the human lifespan, 50 in 2385 might not mean the same thing that it does in 2019. Calder, for example, is about 70 in AoA, and there's nothing to indicate that he's anything but hale and hearty (and also, is still serving as fleet admiral where in modern militaries the retirement age is 65, I think).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 21, 2019, 05:14:33 pm
Aken was still going strong at what I assumed to be an extended age as was petrarch.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Typherian on January 21, 2019, 09:00:00 pm
So when did the GVL Tawaret get a new model? And is it just me or does that new model look exactly like the Providence freighter from Eve Online?



On an in Universe note something I have always been wondering. Do we know if the Atreus has any other crazy tech in it other than the sprint drive? Because after seeing what the Orestes can do if the Atreus has even more toys that thing is absolutely bonkers.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 21, 2019, 10:25:18 pm
Tactical SSMs, among other gizmos.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on January 22, 2019, 03:50:10 am
maybe a dedicated AWACS suite if the description is to be believed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on January 22, 2019, 04:11:22 am
And karaoke every Thursday.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on January 22, 2019, 05:09:18 am
I think it also has got some small nasty anti-subsystem beams, but don't quote me on that.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on January 22, 2019, 07:44:31 am
by the way, is there a tech description for that beam?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdmiralRalwood on January 22, 2019, 10:42:59 am
by the way, is there a tech description for that beam?
Assuming you mean the PBlue:

Quote
'Void Fang' Pulse Beam

Pulse beams are descendants of anti-fighter beams, using quick-rise capacitors to fire a lance of confined plasma. This design excels at penetrating active armor and turret shielding.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on January 22, 2019, 02:15:45 pm
Interesting. Makes you wonder why those are mounted only on the Erebus though. If anything they'd be most useful on cruisers like the Hyperion in ship-to-ship combat.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on January 22, 2019, 02:41:22 pm
The Erebus power grid is insanely good so it's way better at handling extremely rapid spikes in demand. Many of the next-generation beams require dedicated reactors which are super heat and space intensive; the Erebus is able to supply the pulse beams off the mains.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on January 22, 2019, 04:02:46 pm
I see.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdDur on February 02, 2019, 08:06:08 pm
During my replay of BP I actually managed to see new, kinda funny way to play "Collateral Damage" mission, by disabling Idomeneus (quite low difficulty level and tons of dumbfires were required). Corvette can't be destroyed (unlike cruiser Cho), so it keeps drifting with 1% of integrity hull... but what is even more interesting it was possible to finish mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: MrxPL on February 19, 2019, 08:19:50 am
I've finished Age of Aquarius the other day and it was awesome. Intersting plot, great storytelling and stuff. Excited I started playing War in Heaven two hours ago and I have to say it sucks IMO. It's boring and I can't relate to the characters at all. There is too much pointless (again, IMO) talking and a lot of unneeded agonizing. Sorry for the rant but it's kind of unexpected how much it differs (in a bad way) from its predecessor. (again, IMO)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on February 20, 2019, 10:04:07 am
It's person to person, but I believe that you can't judge the whole WiH solely by its beginning. Although I must admit that it is much more character-driven than AoA and there's also much much more lore and similar stuff in the campaign - ingame dialogues, briefings and debriefings, fiction texts (the stuff you get to read before the command briefing). I say that it gives much more depth to the whole BP universe, but again, personal preference.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheavatarin on February 20, 2019, 10:15:44 am
Personally, I prefer my lore and plot arcs to be laid out in the viewer and briefings, rather than in the missions themselves. The missions in WiH do a fantastic job of being the climactic, action-heavy, time-is-valuable-let's-do-the-thing feeling that I want from them. Far more so than purely story (and largely non-interactive) missions in Age of Aquarius like, ...With Vast Seas, Journey of a Thousand Miles, Ceremony, First Contact, Sacrifices, and Demons of the Past.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on March 16, 2019, 10:07:24 am
Phew! I have just finished my 'FS saga' playthrough. FS Port, Trimurti, Deneb III, ST:R, Operation Templar, FS Blue, AoA, WiH 1&2 - in that order. Took several months but what a ride! Definitely recommended for newcomers.

I'll probably repeat this process in a few years when I have upgraded my PC and have saved up for a TrackIR system. If anyone can recommend any other mods that would fit into this timeline please let me know :-)

I'm now going going to listen to Morrigan in Shadow to finish it off :-) http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/dickinson_12_15/ (http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/dickinson_12_15/) Remember to click the tiny and easily missed 'audio' icon to have the lovely Kate Baker (no relation  :p) read it to you.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdDur on March 16, 2019, 12:09:47 pm
I think Vassago Dirge is a good candidate...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on March 16, 2019, 01:24:03 pm
I think Vassago Dirge is a good candidate...

I thought I had forgot to list something 🙂 Yeah, I played VD after FS:B. It's bloody good 😊
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on March 16, 2019, 09:29:19 pm
Two campaigns I'd recommend:

Destiny Of Peace (between FS1 and FS2)
Derelict (post-Capella)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdDur on March 16, 2019, 10:36:43 pm
I believe, "FS-Saga" means campaings that are compatible to BP canon... Derelict is not.

Besides... Derelict is important to the history of FS fan campaings... but it did not aged well...
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: CT27 on March 17, 2019, 12:33:47 am
I believe, "FS-Saga" means campaings that are compatible to BP canon... Derelict is not.

Besides... Derelict is important to the history of FS fan campaings... but it did not aged well...

To each their own but I partially disagree; I still have fun with Derelict even today.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdDur on March 17, 2019, 01:03:14 am
Well, I replayed Derelict quite recently - it was not bad, i do not regret time spent with it... but... it pales in comparision to newer campaigns both in gameplay and story.

Personally I would recommend Frontlines and Between the Ashes. They both are I think, canon-neutral to be part of any canon...

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: starlord on March 17, 2019, 04:00:12 am
Shrouding the light maybe?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fully on April 03, 2019, 11:26:35 am
So aside from gameplay reasons, what's stopping the GTVA/UEF from installing trebuchet/grimmler/slammer launchers on their capships and driving fighter pilots to extinction?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 03, 2019, 11:38:36 am
We've actually played around with that a lot. The answer is basically countermeasures.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: HLD_Prophecy on April 03, 2019, 02:15:47 pm
EDIT: Wrong discussion, sorry, was tab browsing and missed the right topic!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on April 03, 2019, 03:22:45 pm
AdDur, starlord, - thank you for the info :-)

CT27 - I'm actually replaying derelict now. It definitely looks a lot better than it did before, now that it is using the latest MVPs. After having to learn a whole new skillset for BP act three, I had a hankerin' for some old school freeSpacin'  :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2019, 01:17:52 am
Randomly while we're in this thread I'll mention two things I'm proud of that BP contributed to the community — we figured out that two retail mechanics, AI classes and countermeasures, worked in insane ways or didn't work at all. Really digging into those systems and trying to explore them led to knowledge and fixes that can benefit everybody's campaigns.

It still blows my mind that every single ****ing campaign up to War in Heaven probably used AI classes to some extent and they just did not work sanely. AFAIK they would just randomly be reset to their default values. And turret AI did nothing at all.

Countermeasures were so dumb it took Rian's MIT brain to figure them out (I mean the actual deduction was fairly simple, but nobody else spotted it).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fully on April 04, 2019, 06:25:42 am
Randomly while we're in this thread I'll mention two things I'm proud of that BP contributed to the community — we figured out that two retail mechanics, AI classes and countermeasures, worked in insane ways or didn't work at all. Really digging into those systems and trying to explore them led to knowledge and fixes that can benefit everybody's campaigns.

It still blows my mind that every single ****ing campaign up to War in Heaven probably used AI classes to some extent and they just did not work sanely. AFAIK they would just randomly be reset to their default values. And turret AI did nothing at all.

Countermeasures were so dumb it took Rian's MIT brain to figure them out (I mean the actual deduction was fairly simple, but nobody else spotted it).
How did they work originally and what did you guys change? always guessed missiles had a chance to switch targets to the CM based on a tbl score, proximity, and angle between cm and target ship
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: FrikgFeek on April 04, 2019, 10:42:22 am
Angle doesn't matter, proximity doesn't really matter. It's either in range or it isn't.
By default CMs are active for 2 frames after launch and then turn off. Anyone launching a CM activates ALL CMs in the mission for 2 frames. So your fighter spamming CMs also makes enemy CMs active for 2 frames and vice versa.

Within those 2 frames both would do some RNG rolls and decoy missiles in range depending on their tbl power.
CMs still work like this in retail and the vast majority of mods.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on April 04, 2019, 11:15:51 pm
If your missile is about to hit an enemy, and it launches a countermeasure, you can launch countermeasures to make the enemy countermeasure more effective.

Also countermeasures don't actually 'pull' aspect seekers off target, they just make them go dumbfire. (This is part of why countermeasures are so ineffective versus Trebuchets.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Fully on April 05, 2019, 11:41:58 am
What happened to the GTA assets in sol after the node collapsed? First fleet had at least one Orion guarding earth. I'm guessing after 50 years and the emergence of the new UEF designs any remaining great war era hardware would be completely obsolete by the time of WiH, but are any of the spaceframes still out there, maybe mothballed in some dusty old depot?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on April 05, 2019, 03:44:11 pm
If I remember right the crazy gaian effort guy built his destroyer around parts of an old Orion.  No idea which one it would have been though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colt on April 05, 2019, 07:00:54 pm
I've tried looking around but can't confirm if this is correct, but my memory is that they took the reactor core of the GTD Washington? Maybe it was mentioned in the dreamscape?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on April 06, 2019, 07:57:14 pm
Iain Baker: multiple posts in active threads aren't necessary. It's better off in its own thread, posts have been split.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Wrecker1985 on April 07, 2019, 08:18:32 am
I just had to create an account to leave a big shoutout to the makers of Blue Planet. Holy f*cking cow...

This "mod" is just all around crazy good and a piece of art. Considering the limitations that FS always had in regards to capabilities of story-telling it's unbeliveable how you guys managed to deliver such a super-immersive, moving and being in-the-middle cinematic experience. The voice-acting is stellar and never gave me any indiciation that this was a non-commercial sidekick project. Tell the guys who put all this together in their heads like the story,  the post-FS2 lore, the perfect musical composition, pilots and ships having a memorable identity, the awesome cast on the voice actor of Admiral Steele and the outstandingly incredible FREDing work that they are gods at what they do. I just wish for the slight hope that BP3 will ever get finished for a conclusion. It doesn't matter if it takes 5 or 15 years. This one deserves a conclusion.

My hats off to all the people being invloved with the creation of BP. On a side note: A repeat-playthrough while being baked as hell is heavily recommended.

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on May 19, 2019, 09:58:12 am
I'm going to say something very unpopular. I hate War in Heaven Tenebra.

I don't much like forced stealth games of any genera, and thus simply never play them. So having three obligate stealth mission in Tenebra was disappointing, especially when there are no checkpoints, meaning if you mess up you then have to go through all the boring stuff all over again.

This is especially true with Everything is Permitted. A checkpoint after you have scanned the stations subsystems and another after you have located which ship it is would make it far more palatable. I just skip past these missions or cheat my way through them now since they are such an unpleasant experience to play. It is admirable that the core game is being pushed so far, but I feel Tenebra is perhaps a push too far, since the FS engine and interface isn't really set up for it. For me, Tenebra had great story telling, but was not actually any fun to play. I found watching a lets play to be more enjoyable for these missions. Hopefully if act 4 etc ever gets released it will return to more traditional core gameplay.

FYI I gave BP 8.5/10 in my review with Coin Drop. If it weren't for Tenebra it would have got a 9/10. Feel free to berate me all you like but I am just being honest.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on May 19, 2019, 10:08:14 am
I'm going to say something very unpopular. I hate War in Heaven Tenebra.

I don't much like forced stealth games of any genera, and thus simply never play them. So having three obligate stealth mission in Tenebra was disappointing, especially when there are no checkpoints, meaning if you mess up you then have to go through all the boring stuff all over again.

This is especially true with Everything is Permitted. A checkpoint after you have scanned the stations subsystems and another after you have located which ship it is would make it far more palatable. I just skip past these missions or cheat my way through them now since they are such an unpleasant experience to play. It is admirable that the core game is being pushed so far, but I feel Tenebra is perhaps a push too far, since the FS engine and interface isn't really set up for it. For me, Tenebra had great story telling, but was not actually any fun to play. I found watching a lets play to be more enjoyable for these missions. Hopefully if act 4 etc ever gets released it will return to more traditional core gameplay.

FYI I gave BP 8.5/10 in my review with Coin Drop. If it weren't for Tenebra it would have got a 9/10. Feel free to berate me all you like but I am just being honest.

No, that's entirely fair. In Tenebra, we deliberately chose to experiment with missions that do not play like traditional FreeSpace missions -- the intent was to see just how much we could do with the mission design tools FSO provides, and Laporte being part of a force of posthuman state terrorists gave us a good narrative hook to do unconventional stuff.

That said, the missions we have prototyped and plotted for the rest of the campaign are much more traditional.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on May 19, 2019, 10:11:17 am
I'm going to say something very unpopular. I hate War in Heaven Tenebra.

I don't much like forced stealth games of any genera, and thus simply never play them. So having three obligate stealth mission in Tenebra was disappointing, especially when there are no checkpoints, meaning if you mess up you then have to go through all the boring stuff all over again.

This is especially true with Everything is Permitted. A checkpoint after you have scanned the stations subsystems and another after you have located which ship it is would make it far more palatable. I just skip past these missions or cheat my way through them now since they are such an unpleasant experience to play. It is admirable that the core game is being pushed so far, but I feel Tenebra is perhaps a push too far, since the FS engine and interface isn't really set up for it. For me, Tenebra had great story telling, but was not actually any fun to play. I found watching a lets play to be more enjoyable for these missions. Hopefully if act 4 etc ever gets released it will return to more traditional core gameplay.

FYI I gave BP 8.5/10 in my review with Coin Drop. If it weren't for Tenebra it would have got a 9/10. Feel free to berate me all you like but I am just being honest.

No, that's entirely fair. In Tenebra, we deliberately chose to experiment with missions that do not play like traditional FreeSpace missions -- the intent was to see just how much we could do with the mission design tools FSO provides, and Laporte being part of a force of posthuman state terrorists gave us a good narrative hook to do unconventional stuff.

That said, the missions we have prototyped and plotted for the rest of the campaign are much more traditional.

That's good to hear, I wanna blow $h1t up  :)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 10:33:15 am
There’s only one obligate stealth mission, isn’t there? The others you can go loud without failing.

The big theme in acts 4+5 is having a core set of mechanics that you learn across missions, rather than per-mission gimmicks like in SC2 or Call of Duty.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on May 19, 2019, 10:42:04 am
The first is obligate stealth, so is the one I mentioned and her finest hour is pretty much obligatory if you are not playing it on easy. Based on my experience anyway.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 10:45:01 am
No, you can lose stealth plenty in the first one and Her Finest Hour. You won't insta-fail and your stealth will return in a couple seconds if you don't fire. Stealth is more of a dogfight advantage than a 'stay out of LOS or die' disadvantage in Tenebra.

Even in Everything is Permitted, you can get away with being detected without insta-failing, but it will probably lead to a fail state in a couple seconds if you haven't carefully prepped for it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on May 19, 2019, 12:24:46 pm
I'm going to say something very unpopular. I hate War in Heaven Tenebra.

I don't much like forced stealth games of any genera, and thus simply never play them. So having three obligate stealth mission in Tenebra was disappointing, especially when there are no checkpoints, meaning if you mess up you then have to go through all the boring stuff all over again.

This is especially true with Everything is Permitted. A checkpoint after you have scanned the stations subsystems and another after you have located which ship it is would make it far more palatable. I just skip past these missions or cheat my way through them now since they are such an unpleasant experience to play. It is admirable that the core game is being pushed so far, but I feel Tenebra is perhaps a push too far, since the FS engine and interface isn't really set up for it. For me, Tenebra had great story telling, but was not actually any fun to play. I found watching a lets play to be more enjoyable for these missions. Hopefully if act 4 etc ever gets released it will return to more traditional core gameplay.

FYI I gave BP 8.5/10 in my review with Coin Drop. If it weren't for Tenebra it would have got a 9/10. Feel free to berate me all you like but I am just being honest.

I actually really liked the change of pace Tenebra offered. Granted, I understand where you are coming from here and it's certainly not going to be everyone's cup of tea.
And along what The E said, the missions certainly felt like the kinds of operations the Fedayeen would undertake.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on May 19, 2019, 03:09:47 pm
No, you can lose stealth plenty in the first one and Her Finest Hour. You won't insta-fail and your stealth will return in a couple seconds if you don't fire. Stealth is more of a dogfight advantage than a 'stay out of LOS or die' disadvantage in Tenebra.

Even in Everything is Permitted, you can get away with being detected without insta-failing, but it will probably lead to a fail state in a couple seconds if you haven't carefully prepped for it.

I'll grant you the first one, which was actually an ok mission once you learn to hang back and let the Gia nutters do the work for you.

With Her Finest Hour, is it possible to complete the mission without getting any of the reinforcement points which you get for scanning stuff and sniping AWACs ships and beam platforms, for which you need to be stealthy. If not then it is as good as being obligate stealth.

In the assassination mission how far away do you need to be for the fighters to lose lock on you? I have had both auroras and normal fighters still knowing exactly where I am from over 4KM away. I have tried turning tail and flying away. I have tried flying away on full afterburner with all my energy diverted to the engines. I have tried gliding at 90 degrees from my last direction, I have tried powering down and they still find me. I have tried doing all of the above in combination and they still know exactly where I am. I have flown well over 10KM from everything and those bloody things still know where I am. If I power down I just get killed since they still know where I am but now I cant change direction or do anything. Is it supposed to be like this or is my game screwing around?

I have noticed several glitches in my game which I haven't seen in lets plays, such as strange white square snow like effects in Ken and the great darkness bit in UT2. My controls went haywire in eye of the storm too after placing the tanks - I don't think it liked the UI changing mid mission, so perhaps my game is just borked in general?

Is it possible to insert checkpoints? Some of the longer mission with distinct sections would really benefit from them. Taking the assassination mission as an example, a checkpoint occurring once you have identified which ship she is on would do much to ease the pain, since you could then experiment with different tactics without having to sit through all the dialogue, which gets a little tedious after you have heard it a few times.

Or introduce quicksaves so people can save-scum their way through things  ;7 But I gather the FreeSpace engine does not cater for them?

I'm all for experimentation and seeing how far you can push an engine before it breaks, but perhaps give people the option of skipping missions that diverge significantly from core FS gameplay. CoD MW2 allowed you to skip the 'No Russians' mission entirely with no penalties. Granted, this was due to its graphic content, (plus that game was terrible in every other way) but the principle is the same.

Just something I needed to get off my chest - brought on by that *CENSORED* mission killing me yet again. Grrrr. I'm calm again now  :P
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 03:52:08 pm
All missions can be skipped if you fail them five times.

You can beat Her Finest Hour without firing a shot (or even moving your ship, I expect). No stealth required.

We have checkpoints in many missions but they’re complicated to implement. It might be possible to add one to Everything is Permitted but the mission has so many possible states (it’s more of a sandbox than a linear progression) it would take some real work.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 19, 2019, 04:17:18 pm
Everything is Permitted is really fun, once you learn how to play it.  I absolutely detested it the first couple of times around however.

Spoiler:
The way I see it, you single the elder out and then fry them with a mjolnir, all while vigorously trying to avoid being spotted, then jump out totally undetected as the tevs violently freak out over how their own weapons just screwed them over.  Thats freaking awesome.

However my jimmies were quite rustled by the fact that the backdoors you have available were seriously under-stated in the briefing, so it felt unfair that I was expected to figure out I could do some of these things.  "Access to networked weapons" and 'we leave backdoors in assets that are likely to be captured' suggests you have access to the UEF equipment in the area (particularly the stations weapons) which are being made use of by the tevs.  Instead you can actually seize control of tev equipment.  That seems to me like an unlikely and difficult thing to pull off (assumedly the tevs just installed their own stuff for controlling the mjolnirs), and therefore very worthy of mention.  I among other things have serious doubts that both the tevs and UEF use the same standard remote beam cannon packet protocol.

Additionally, mjolnirs are extremely powerful as weapons of assasionation (at least in the specific case of very fragile transports), so whatshisface probably would have felt the need to point out you could potentially use them, since they seemed pretty interested in making sure you succeeded at the mission.

I get that this is a side project for everyone involved, and am not complaining about some percieved slight imperfection, its the fact that this is so extreme that it smells like someone said 'we should let the players creativity decide whether or not they get to do this instead of just telling them, after all this is a video game so to hell with any sense of authenticity'.  It would be fine if that jived with the rules the game had followed up to that point (a serious story about professionals doing everything they can to murder eachother), but that definitely didn't, and seemed like it was deliberately so.

e: Grammar
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 04:24:49 pm
They definitely encourage you pretty hard to poke around Artemis and see what resources you can scrounge.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 19, 2019, 04:41:20 pm
Sure, but how on earth are you supposed to scrounge up all the information to control an RBC, in a format your ship knows how to use, scrounged from computers that probably wouldn't have that information?  Its highly anomalous that you are able to do that, given what was said in the briefing, I proclaim to you.

I grant you that what I suspect didn't necessarily happen, but I do think the appearance of deliberately omitting information that should have been available and was needed to complete the mission is mainly whats frustrating to people.  The game is cucking them by telling them they should have done something that doesn't make sense given the rules of the game.  The fedayeen seems as if it would have shared the information such that they would know roughly what to do.  To be clear, looking at exact briefing text, "If you access the tevs networked weapons, you may be able to subvert them and use them on the target." the absence of the two italicized words there is what makes it seem like deliberate omission.  The language seems carefully crafted to tip toe around explaining what your actual options are.

Also, as Iain has pointed out its really painful trial and error figuring out what you actually need to do to escape.  I bypassed that via the aforementioned approach, enabling me to not need to figure that out at all.

e: I'd like to emphasize that i think its the appearance of deliberate omission which is getting people rustled.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 05:04:59 pm
Iirc the training mission runs you through the escape protocol, though I don't remember how well it does it. Maybe something's broke, or it just wasn't adequate. I do think it's a mission that's stressful to replay and doesn't always satisfy my itch for flow.

Man I'm not gonna respond to any discussion about the game 'cucking' you. Cucking? Really? You think words were omitted from the briefing in order to cuck you?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rhymes on May 19, 2019, 05:36:33 pm
The training mission definitely does run you through the escape systems, and I also recall it teaching the player to hack Mjolnirs specifically.

Also, Idk what other weapons you might be thinking of as "networked weapons," seeing as Mjolnirs have operated as part of a remote network since FS2.

Last thing:
cucking

That word is not just "****ing" spelled wrong. It has a specific meaning that doesn't apply at all in this context. Using it here significantly reduces the coherence and quality of your argument.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 05:38:28 pm
Lest Quake feel too piled-on I do think it is a frustrating mission to run through over and over before you've cracked it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on May 19, 2019, 05:59:57 pm
One issue I found with WiH, and act three especially, is that it introduces so many new mechanics that it gets a little overwhelming. Having to use lots of keystrokes via the in-game menus can be awkward mid-mission, especially if you are being shot at. It is probably unavoidable since the FS engine / interface was never really designed with that level of complexity in mind. It wasn't designed for fleet command, controlling capital ships or RTS.

If I were to give any constructive criticism going forward it would be to rein in the temptation to force the engine to do things it isn't really built for and concentrate instead on narrative and core gameplay - i.e. what the FS engine is good at.

I would also suggest not introducing completely new game mechanics every mission, as it can get overwhelming. Ideally a player should have time to become comfortable with a new mechanic before they are exposed to a new one. Each mission in Tenebra filled me with a sense of trepidation, "Oh great, I just got my head around the new mechanics introduced in the last mission, now I'm going to have to learn a whole new set for this one, only for those to be useless in the following mission, rinse and repeat." Frankly it felt like work, not something to be enjoyed.

Perhaps have missions that try to do things very differently as standalone missions - as you guys did with 'The blade itself'. That way everyone is happy - those that want to try something experimental can do so, and those that are not interested in that are not forced to play it.

From a narrative perspective tenebra was great - Clarkesworld wouldn't have published two stories based on it if its wasn't -, and the soundscape, use of music and visuals were all spot on, and it was very impressive as a tech demo of what the FS engine can be forced to do, but it just wasn't any fun to play.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 06:05:03 pm
The big theme in acts 4+5 is having a core set of mechanics that you learn across missions, rather than per-mission gimmicks like in SC2 or Call of Duty.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on May 19, 2019, 06:06:50 pm
The big theme in acts 4+5 is having a core set of mechanics that you learn across missions, rather than per-mission gimmicks like in SC2 or Call of Duty.

That's more like it  :)

What is SC2 BTW?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 19, 2019, 06:19:16 pm
I was (admittedly awkwardly) trying to reduce what I perceived as growing irritation, by trying to use relatively easy going language many people (including me) tend to use in gaming circles.  Lest someone start shouting about dictionary definitions, I would point out that Homer's idiomatic use of the word 'dough' was incorporated into a dictionary because dictionaries are meant to track to the actual in-use form of the language, not the vice versa.  I can see that I came across as crass and I apologise, but you could at at least avoid pretending you have no idea what I meant.  Its definition number 2 on urban dictionary at the moment and is decently reflective of how people will use it in that context: https://i.imgur.com/fqd6GSU.png

It doesn't particularly mean anything, its just a reflection of how you feel when you get a 'game over, you absolute moron [insert three paragraphs about how the entire UEF defensive strategy collapsed because of your failure]' that felt unjustified.

Anyways, I don't see how the BP team would be obligated to go way out of their way to make sure people know how to play the mission.  I'm saying that it feels like information was deliberately omitted for sake of some abstract goal that isn't really compatible with how the story had been told up to this point.  The most straightforward mechanism to defuse that would be to say 'nope, wasn't intended', which seemingly has been implied, albeit in a perverse fashion.  I don't get what all the confusion is about.  Its not like this would be the first time in human history that one monkey made a design decision that seemed inconsistent and annoying to another monkey.  Explain why suspecting that this might have happened is in any way unjustifiable?  Did my language imply that I was in any way certain of that?

Also, Idk what other weapons you might be thinking of as "networked weapons," seeing as Mjolnirs have operated as part of a remote network since FS2.
The station isn't a fundamentally atomic thing, everything in it is operating in a network, and indeed blue planet has actually made some effort at depicting the existence of such things in the past.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on May 19, 2019, 08:28:42 pm
There’s no weird conspiracy, I just assumed “the enemy” was implicit in “networked weapons.” The intended path of discovery for that info is from discovering you can scan Artemis subsystems for useful stuff.

People don’t like cuck because it’s associated with the alt right and Gamergate. It’s sort of a shibboleth.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: TechnoD11 on May 19, 2019, 10:21:48 pm

In the assassination mission how far away do you need to be for the fighters to lose lock on you? I have had both auroras and normal fighters still knowing exactly where I am from over 4KM away. I have tried turning tail and flying away. I have tried flying away on full afterburner with all my energy diverted to the engines. I have tried gliding at 90 degrees from my last direction, I have tried powering down and they still find me. I have tried doing all of the above in combination and they still know exactly where I am. I have flown well over 10KM from everything and those bloody things still know where I am. If I power down I just get killed since they still know where I am but now I cant change direction or do anything. Is it supposed to be like this or is my game screwing around?


Alright I think there is something wrong there. It's been about 2 years since I've played this mission but I distinctly remember one of the methods for success I employed was going dark after the assassination, then warping out.
Also, as quake stated earlier, the mjolnir hack is definitely the most satisfying way to beat this one though.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on May 20, 2019, 04:54:36 am
The big theme in acts 4+5 is having a core set of mechanics that you learn across missions, rather than per-mission gimmicks like in SC2 or Call of Duty.

That's more like it  :)

What is SC2 BTW?


Zergs.......The return.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on May 20, 2019, 07:18:31 am
I want to support TechnoD11 on that, there is something wrong. I'm pretty sure there is some kind of a bug with the stealth in this mission, based on what Baker has reported. I wonder if it can be related to the FSO build used by him? I'd suggest looking at it with a fresh new nightly build.

I myself have got rather fond memories of the mission in question, and I have played it long before dreamscape training sessions were a thing. From my point of view, it goes like that: there's no "deliberate information omittence". There's simply no information. The way you should approach the mission is a bit different than usual. You get a target to find and eliminate and a bunch of resources you can procure via viral weapons (scanning). It's all about poking your nnose anywhere you can and using that to your advantage.

You have to scan Artemis comms anyway to be able to find the transport, but if I recall it properly you could also scan sensors and weapons, doing that resulting in procuring some additional possibilities. Sensors give you the ability to create a powerful EMP blast and weapons allow you to breach into the Mjolnir network. Laporte makes remarks about that herself! An additional HUD gauge reporting Mjolnir status also shows up.

At least that's my memory of the mission from when I did replay it a dozen times just to try and find all I could use to complete the task. But I don't think that Director's Cut changed the mission enough for my points here to be invalid.

The point is - BP is cool and all, but as soon as people have to get a bit creative, act intelligently and care to notice the more or less subtle hints during the mission and consider them to complete their objective, the whining starts. It looks for me not like "inconsistent, annoying design" and "not Freespace anymore" but like the player once in a while isn't being led by the hand by the mission designer.

This discussion also makes me want to replay Tenebra again just to be more informed about what I'm talking about :P.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Knarfe1000 on June 09, 2019, 12:02:00 pm
One question to WiH: Is Act 3 (Tenebra) part of the actual package that can be downloaded with Knossos? I know that Tenebra is released but on Knossos only Act 1 and 2 are listed.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on June 09, 2019, 12:08:08 pm
One question to WiH: Is Act 3 (Tenebra) part of the actual package that can be downloaded with Knossos? I know that Tenebra is released but on Knossos only Act 1 and 2 are listed.

It should be, yeah.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on June 09, 2019, 03:21:37 pm
Acts 1 and 2 are packed in "War in Heaven 1", while "War in Heaven 2" is just Tenebra.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Knarfe1000 on June 10, 2019, 05:57:11 am
Ah now I get it. Thx
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aesaar on June 11, 2019, 07:42:58 am
Freespace 2: Blue Planet 2: War in Heaven 2: Act 3: Tenebra
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on July 10, 2019, 05:03:49 am
Erebus - a line Super-Destroyer?

Just a thought. An Erebus is larger than a Lucifer, and not much smaller than the Hades - both of which are classed as super-destroyers. So, does that make an Erebus a line (i.e. not a one-off unique ship) super-destroyer?

If so, its no wonder the UEF 'haven't got a prayer' against the Atreus  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on July 10, 2019, 07:34:29 am
It wouldn't be the first one to be a regular super destroyer without "S"D though, BWOs Golgotha is probably longer but is still called GTD too, and on the forum it is implied that they wanted to built more than 1 of it (contrary to the Colossus).
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: sixrocket on July 28, 2019, 02:36:32 pm
I've got a major issue on the Jupiter-based tank deployment mission in War in Heaven - the "missiles" that I assume represent tanks dropping from low orbit just endlessly loop around the platforms after failing initial guidance. Only 1/10th of the tanks I've tried to land have actually made it.

Oh, and now I've got this upon the second wave spawning:
LUA ERROR: [string "tdefense-sct.tbm - On Ship Collision"]:8: attempt to index field 'Type' (a nil value)

------------------------------------------------------------------
ADE Debug:
------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------------------------------------------

stack traceback:
   [C]: ?
   [string "tdefense-sct.tbm - On Ship Collision"]:8: in main chunk
------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on July 29, 2019, 08:06:52 am
IIRC we finally figured out what caused that - Axem should know. I think there’s an easy workaround but I can’t remember.

Are you running the latest version of BP from Knossos?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: GhylTarvoke on July 29, 2019, 10:54:17 am
I think the looping bug only happens if you play certain missions immediately beforehand. "Her Finest Hour" is one such mission.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on July 29, 2019, 02:01:04 pm
Yeah. Just restart the game from desktop and start Eyes fresh.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on August 02, 2019, 04:32:03 am
I imagine this has probably been said before (FYI I left PC gaming in 2003 and became a console gamer due to my PC at the time dying every other day, and I only came back to PC gaming in 2012/13 - mainly due to Black Mesa - and only rediscovered FS in 2017ish) so apologies if I am beating a deceased Equus  :p but something just occurred to me.

The timing of the Vasudans discovering the past existence of the Ancients, AND that discovery being made on the planet that ALSO happened to have the records of the technology needed to track the Lucifer through subspace and the knowledge that in subspace it can be killed, at exactly the right time for lucy to be killed inside the Sol wormhole and thus isolating Earth is one hell of a coincidence (or string of unlikely coincidences.)

Since I don't believe in coincidences I posit that these events were precisely engineered to reach that outcome. Think on these;

Who would have wanted to force the GTA and the Vasudans to work together?

Who would then have wanted the humans in Sol to survive once peace had been reached?

Who would have the the near omnipotence to know that the tech and info needed to destroy the Lucifer was located on that planet?

Who would then have the ability to covertly encourage its Vasudan discoverers (invisibly and at a distance) to be at the right place at the right time, and the prescience to know it would lead to the isolation of Sol?

For whom would this isolated population be desirable?


I think we all know the answer.

Which also raises another question; "Were the Ancient's monologues that Alpha 1 saw / heard actually from the Ancients (who have supposedly been dead for 8,000 years), or were they by a certain Nagari capable entity/s that is/are still very much in existence impersonating the ancients for their own purposes?"

Rabbitholing intensifies   ;7

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on August 02, 2019, 06:46:45 am
That is a very cool idea.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on August 02, 2019, 04:38:25 pm
That is a very cool idea.

Thank you :-)

Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on August 12, 2019, 09:47:39 am
That is a very cool idea.

Feel free to 'appropriate'  ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Komakoffee on September 13, 2019, 07:21:37 pm
First time playing Freespace in roughly ten years, just want to mention that I'm very very impressed by Blue Planet!  :D huge compliments to everyone who has worked on it. Thanks for the hard work and I'm hoping to see more of your work in the future ^^
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aurora on September 24, 2019, 11:30:38 am
What's the menu theme for War in Heaven? I noticed it also played in My Brother, My Enemy but I can't find it anywhere.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colt on September 24, 2019, 02:32:01 pm
What's the menu theme for War in Heaven? I noticed it also played in My Brother, My Enemy but I can't find it anywhere.
Apocalyptica. There was a youtube channel a year or so ago that had uploaded many of the WiH soundtracks, but I've been unable to find it.

If you want to download it, a .vp viewer will allow you to open up the mod and extract the .ogg file. It's in bpc_audio2>Music. I use Maja Express  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aurora on September 24, 2019, 03:25:56 pm
What's the menu theme for War in Heaven? I noticed it also played in My Brother, My Enemy but I can't find it anywhere.
Apocalyptica. There was a youtube channel a year or so ago that had uploaded many of the WiH soundtracks, but I've been unable to find it.

If you want to download it, a .vp viewer will allow you to open up the mod and extract the .ogg file. It's in bpc_audio2>Music. I use Maja Express  :yes:

I found that one, but I'm referring to the other tune that plays right after you commit. It also plays in the main menu.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colt on September 24, 2019, 04:02:10 pm
What's the menu theme for War in Heaven? I noticed it also played in My Brother, My Enemy but I can't find it anywhere.
Apocalyptica. There was a youtube channel a year or so ago that had uploaded many of the WiH soundtracks, but I've been unable to find it.

If you want to download it, a .vp viewer will allow you to open up the mod and extract the .ogg file. It's in bpc_audio2>Music. I use Maja Express  :yes:

I found that one, but I'm referring to the other tune that plays right after you commit. It also plays in the main menu.

Battle music? That would be Quutamo. That one's on YT as well.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Mito [PL] on September 24, 2019, 05:32:42 pm
The first one (War in Heaven menu and My Brother, My Enemy first track) is Rogue Squadron by Fernando Pepe and the first battle track from that mission is Quutamo by Apocalyptica.

Unless the latest update changed something, of course.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Aurora on September 26, 2019, 03:25:15 pm
ye thats the one! thanks bb
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ShivanSpS on October 09, 2019, 07:47:55 pm
I was thinking after re-playing Silent Threat, if the Shivans adjust their forms and tech level to the enemy they are fighting, this means the reason the Lucifer existed was because of the Hades being built? The Hades was designed to destroy the Vasudans after all, it kinda fits with the idea of the Lucifer being meant as a way to make Humans and Vasudans join forces.
I always belived it was something odd, the Ancients were a HUGE empire until the Shivans destroyed them, the Humans and Vasudans were not anywere near that level.

That was a missed opportunity on Age of Aquarius, there could have been some reference to what happened to that Hades, altrought it would had been useless whiout beam weapons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on October 09, 2019, 07:50:16 pm
While the Hades most likely existed long before Lucy showed up, it most likely had no beam weapons.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2019, 09:36:32 pm
The FS1 Lucy was a leftover from the Ancient cull. Its shield, stealth, and subspace mobility made it an absolute horror for the Ancients to contend with. The Shivans wouldn’t really have reacted to the Hades until they encountered it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: ShivanSpS on October 19, 2019, 09:31:12 am
Did i ever mentioned about the ridiculously LONG list of copyrights claims i got for uploading War in Heaven?

(https://i.imgur.com/j5VTMvy.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/0zFaJQg.png)

I have no idea if all of that are correct but that has to be a record.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: slayer tier on October 20, 2019, 08:09:00 am
hi, really enjoying this so far, the war heaven part 2 is amazing i dont know how many man hours went into these missions, must be 500+ for each. i got to the mission where u defend the gas station with turrets, it says the repair turret will rearm me but it doesn't. also it doesnt repair me. is there a button i have to press? i can live without repair but the rearm is vital because im using the 4000 ammo shotgun, the unlimited ammo weapons arent good.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Trivial Psychic on October 21, 2019, 01:38:54 am
I recently encountered the no-rearm thing too.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: AdDur on November 11, 2019, 10:44:24 am
There is a thing that bothers me and i completally do not remember if it was ever answered - why actually Artemis station did not enacted Scorched Earth protocole?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: perihelion on November 11, 2019, 11:26:23 am
Because they could not evacuate the entire station before it was overrun.  They would have had to kill their own people.  In the UEF society, that would have been a monstrous crime beyond contemplation for just about everyone except the Fedayeen and possibly Calder.

Which is (aside from the huge T2 problem) precisely why the GTVA believes the UEF has to be destroyed before its ideas can infect the rest of the GTVA.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on November 26, 2019, 05:45:33 pm
What do the Vishnans want with us – a hypothesis

I have been thinking recently (I know, dangerous right?) and I am left wondering why the Vishnans are acting so cagey. Why are they only communicating with the Elders? The rest of the UEF appears unaware of the Vishnans existence or their influence. I suspect the Vishnans told the Elders to keep quiet about their existence and involvement. Why so secretive? And why have they been so vague even with the Elders as to what their plans for humanity are?

I suspect that the Vishnans need us to become something, but that this ‘something’ is something no sane intelligence would willingly become. Therefore they are lying.

Perhaps they need humanity to become something – perhaps a summed psyche entity that can contain / repel / fight etc. the Great Darkness. Fighting the GD may be an eternal struggle and painful / damaging / horrifying in ways we cannot conceive of. Convincing an entire civilisation (or at least a sufficiently large percentage thereof) to willingly sacrifice themselves in such a way might be impossible, even for the Vishnans.

So instead they trick the Elders by giving them vague ideals of achieving a state of enlightenment / paradise etc. and then get the Elders to groom the rest of the civilisation in preparation. By the time the civilisation realises what is actually instore for them it is too late.
It may also be that becoming a summed psyche would essentially mean the ‘death of the of self’ for all members that comprise it. See some of the works and presentations by Peter Watts to see why a hive mind really isn’t something you would want to be part of:
 
https://youtu.be/v4uwaw_5Q3I
 (https://youtu.be/v4uwaw_5Q3I)

I’ll admit these musings were not an entirely original idea, and were in fact inspired by the game Clive Barker’s Jericho. Near the end the Jericho team learn that to contain the First Born (amoral godlike child entity that hates humanity and intends to exterminate us wholesale) they will have to bind themselves to the breach to its dimension. They are told this will be like a dreamless sleep. However, one of the team realises that this is a lie, and that this binding will mean agonising pain and torment for all eternity – not something he is willing to accept regardless of the stakes involved. The videos below show this in sufficiently gory detail.

https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM?t=3017 (https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM?t=3017)

https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM (https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM)

Perhaps this is the predicament the Vishnans are in. They may be benevolent, or at least neutral, but need to manipulate and sacrifice us in order to preserve the universe. As they say in Hot Fuzz “For the greater good”. It has been stated that they (Vishnans) are running out of time and candidates. Perhaps previous species they have attempted to groom saw threw the ruse and thus rejected them, just like our mini-gunned friend in the videos. To stop the truth getting out to other civilisations they (Vishnans) would then need to order a cull, thus letting the Shivans do their omnicidal thing.

Could this scenario account for some, or possibly even ALL of the Shivan’s past exterminations? Were they all the result of cull orders decreed by the Vishnans? Do the Vishnans have the blood of countless species on their ethereal hands?

Speaking of the Shivans, I couldn’t figure out before why they should care about a Braham successor. Perhaps it is linked to this? Since the GD already exists simply exterminating any life that could turn into a GD as a preventative measure wouldn’t work as it is too late for that. What’s more doing so would prevent said species from becoming something that the Vishnans could use to fight the GD.

Just some late-night head cannon musings but I think I might be on to something here. Feel free to comment or ignore entirely :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on November 26, 2019, 11:55:37 pm
(https://i.imgflip.com/3hoos4.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/3hoos4)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on November 27, 2019, 11:59:08 am
What do the Vishnans want with us – a hypothesis

I have been thinking recently (I know, dangerous right?) and I am left wondering why the Vishnans are acting so cagey. Why are they only communicating with the Elders? The rest of the UEF appears unaware of the Vishnans existence or their influence. I suspect the Vishnans told the Elders to keep quiet about their existence and involvement. Why so secretive? And why have they been so vague even with the Elders as to what their plans for humanity are?

I suspect that the Vishnans need us to become something, but that this ‘something’ is something no sane intelligence would willingly become. Therefore they are lying.

Perhaps they need humanity to become something – perhaps a summed psyche entity that can contain / repel / fight etc. the Great Darkness. Fighting the GD may be an eternal struggle and painful / damaging / horrifying in ways we cannot conceive of. Convincing an entire civilisation (or at least a sufficiently large percentage thereof) to willingly sacrifice themselves in such a way might be impossible, even for the Vishnans.

So instead they trick the Elders by giving them vague ideals of achieving a state of enlightenment / paradise etc. and then get the Elders to groom the rest of the civilisation in preparation. By the time the civilisation realises what is actually instore for them it is too late.
It may also be that becoming a summed psyche would essentially mean the ‘death of the of self’ for all members that comprise it. See some of the works and presentations by Peter Watts to see why a hive mind really isn’t something you would want to be part of:
 
https://youtu.be/v4uwaw_5Q3I
 (https://youtu.be/v4uwaw_5Q3I)

I’ll admit these musings were not an entirely original idea, and were in fact inspired by the game Clive Barker’s Jericho. Near the end the Jericho team learn that to contain the First Born (amoral godlike child entity that hates humanity and intends to exterminate us wholesale) they will have to bind themselves to the breach to its dimension. They are told this will be like a dreamless sleep. However, one of the team realises that this is a lie, and that this binding will mean agonising pain and torment for all eternity – not something he is willing to accept regardless of the stakes involved. The videos below show this in sufficiently gory detail.

https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM?t=3017 (https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM?t=3017)

https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM (https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM)

Perhaps this is the predicament the Vishnans are in. They may be benevolent, or at least neutral, but need to manipulate and sacrifice us in order to preserve the universe. As they say in Hot Fuzz “For the greater good”. It has been stated that they (Vishnans) are running out of time and candidates. Perhaps previous species they have attempted to groom saw threw the ruse and thus rejected them, just like our mini-gunned friend in the videos. To stop the truth getting out to other civilisations they (Vishnans) would then need to order a cull, thus letting the Shivans do their omnicidal thing.

Could this scenario account for some, or possibly even ALL of the Shivan’s past exterminations? Were they all the result of cull orders decreed by the Vishnans? Do the Vishnans have the blood of countless species on their ethereal hands?

Speaking of the Shivans, I couldn’t figure out before why they should care about a Braham successor. Perhaps it is linked to this? Since the GD already exists simply exterminating any life that could turn into a GD as a preventative measure wouldn’t work as it is too late for that. What’s more doing so would prevent said species from becoming something that the Vishnans could use to fight the GD.

Just some late-night head cannon musings but I think I might be on to something here. Feel free to comment or ignore entirely :p

Very nice post!

With reference to Vishnans lying: There is an entry of the fiction viewer that the Vasudan language is used to pass on secrets. Its a complex language, and the sentences have different contexts are hidden in the same sentence. McCarthy says that vasudan is a very crafty language. They also say that knowing all the secrets of the universe can also drive a person mad, and that's why they conceal the secrets in the language and art (i guess) This may also be the reason why the Vishnans had a different meaning the (ie the way Laporte sees it and the way Samuel Bei sees it)

With reference to the Great Darkness: More pressing question is what will happen to it after it has crossed its limit of growing? another bigbang? another blackhole? or will it be the Dawn war all over again? Why are the vishnans interested in *humans* particularly and not the vasudans much? They could have spoken to the vasudans thru nagari, turned them against the humans, and then finally a decisive Vishnan and Vasudan vs Terran war which made the vasudans become the successor of the Brahmans?

with reference to the Shivans: They were calculated. A violent species which are bent to destroy the races which are deemed not worthy by the Vishnans (previously the brahmans?) and since there is no brahmans, the Vishnans used to order the shivans and they used to obey.

The Great Darkness looms over the sentient races, and to (combat/evade?) that situation, they might be jury rigging races for a successor for the brahmans, then might merge them to the Great Psyche as they were not the optimal successor, then might wait for a new race to emerge and continue the cycle until a worthy race has been found and will be ascended as the brahmans.

Possible theory where the big bang/creation of universe may also be a result of the dawn war/unleashing the next great darkness?

GTVA/UEF were almost technologically as advanced as the vishnans. Hence, they might have planned to merge them to the summed psyche. So why the Deception? Its like you want to give medicine to a kid. But then the kid will fight you as long as you treat it like youre giving it medicine. Instead, you sit with the child, you begin to tell the story/history of medicine, and you scale it down to a kid's level. Hence you omit all the confusing and complex details out, and in turn, you are just achieving what you really wanted: the kid to eat the medicine. As the kid grows, the kid will begin to explore and learn, because the kid is now interested with the vague details. One day, he might be in the same position which you are in: to administer medicine to a kid and the kid doesnt like it.

These are my thoughts, and i'd love inputs and corrections :D

My way of conveying what i talk may be confusing/may make no sense, please bear with me 😅
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Elaheh_Aiza on December 07, 2019, 06:18:42 pm
Can I ask a quick question? How the hell do you people find such interesting music for BP? I swear I am impressed every time I play. Like , what's the vetting process? (sorry if this is the wrong thread, didn't feel like making a new one.)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: General Battuta on December 07, 2019, 09:23:27 pm
Mostly Darius! Dude has good taste.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rogue Assassin04 on December 08, 2019, 08:55:09 am
Kinda a bug i think.

in the wih credits, the player can order all the ships to depart and stuffs, they can even order all ships to form on the wing. i have encountered this twice.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on December 08, 2019, 09:14:59 am
Can I ask a quick question? How the hell do you people find such interesting music for BP? I swear I am impressed every time I play. Like , what's the vetting process? (sorry if this is the wrong thread, didn't feel like making a new one.)

My guess is much of it goes by feel and throwing music into the mission to see what fits best. You don't need to be a musician to have good taste in music.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on December 08, 2019, 09:43:54 am
Well Scroll has some great music too. Perhabs you don't just need a good taste of music but a certain "**** the lawyers this is fair use"-attitude as well. ;)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on December 10, 2019, 03:22:06 pm
What do the Vishnans want with us – a hypothesis

I have been thinking recently (I know, dangerous right?) and I am left wondering why the Vishnans are acting so cagey. Why are they only communicating with the Elders? The rest of the UEF appears unaware of the Vishnans existence or their influence. I suspect the Vishnans told the Elders to keep quiet about their existence and involvement. Why so secretive? And why have they been so vague even with the Elders as to what their plans for humanity are?

I suspect that the Vishnans need us to become something, but that this ‘something’ is something no sane intelligence would willingly become. Therefore they are lying.

Perhaps they need humanity to become something – perhaps a summed psyche entity that can contain / repel / fight etc. the Great Darkness. Fighting the GD may be an eternal struggle and painful / damaging / horrifying in ways we cannot conceive of. Convincing an entire civilisation (or at least a sufficiently large percentage thereof) to willingly sacrifice themselves in such a way might be impossible, even for the Vishnans.

So instead they trick the Elders by giving them vague ideals of achieving a state of enlightenment / paradise etc. and then get the Elders to groom the rest of the civilisation in preparation. By the time the civilisation realises what is actually instore for them it is too late.
It may also be that becoming a summed psyche would essentially mean the ‘death of the of self’ for all members that comprise it. See some of the works and presentations by Peter Watts to see why a hive mind really isn’t something you would want to be part of:
 
https://youtu.be/v4uwaw_5Q3I
 (https://youtu.be/v4uwaw_5Q3I)

I’ll admit these musings were not an entirely original idea, and were in fact inspired by the game Clive Barker’s Jericho. Near the end the Jericho team learn that to contain the First Born (amoral godlike child entity that hates humanity and intends to exterminate us wholesale) they will have to bind themselves to the breach to its dimension. They are told this will be like a dreamless sleep. However, one of the team realises that this is a lie, and that this binding will mean agonising pain and torment for all eternity – not something he is willing to accept regardless of the stakes involved. The videos below show this in sufficiently gory detail.

https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM?t=3017 (https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM?t=3017)

https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM (https://youtu.be/GRexdhrTsWM)

Perhaps this is the predicament the Vishnans are in. They may be benevolent, or at least neutral, but need to manipulate and sacrifice us in order to preserve the universe. As they say in Hot Fuzz “For the greater good”. It has been stated that they (Vishnans) are running out of time and candidates. Perhaps previous species they have attempted to groom saw threw the ruse and thus rejected them, just like our mini-gunned friend in the videos. To stop the truth getting out to other civilisations they (Vishnans) would then need to order a cull, thus letting the Shivans do their omnicidal thing.

Could this scenario account for some, or possibly even ALL of the Shivan’s past exterminations? Were they all the result of cull orders decreed by the Vishnans? Do the Vishnans have the blood of countless species on their ethereal hands?

Speaking of the Shivans, I couldn’t figure out before why they should care about a Braham successor. Perhaps it is linked to this? Since the GD already exists simply exterminating any life that could turn into a GD as a preventative measure wouldn’t work as it is too late for that. What’s more doing so would prevent said species from becoming something that the Vishnans could use to fight the GD.

Just some late-night head cannon musings but I think I might be on to something here. Feel free to comment or ignore entirely :p

Very nice post!

With reference to Vishnans lying: There is an entry of the fiction viewer that the Vasudan language is used to pass on secrets. Its a complex language, and the sentences have different contexts are hidden in the same sentence. McCarthy says that vasudan is a very crafty language. They also say that knowing all the secrets of the universe can also drive a person mad, and that's why they conceal the secrets in the language and art (i guess) This may also be the reason why the Vishnans had a different meaning the (ie the way Laporte sees it and the way Samuel Bei sees it)

With reference to the Great Darkness: More pressing question is what will happen to it after it has crossed its limit of growing? another bigbang? another blackhole? or will it be the Dawn war all over again? Why are the vishnans interested in *humans* particularly and not the vasudans much? They could have spoken to the vasudans thru nagari, turned them against the humans, and then finally a decisive Vishnan and Vasudan vs Terran war which made the vasudans become the successor of the Brahmans?

with reference to the Shivans: They were calculated. A violent species which are bent to destroy the races which are deemed not worthy by the Vishnans (previously the brahmans?) and since there is no brahmans, the Vishnans used to order the shivans and they used to obey.

The Great Darkness looms over the sentient races, and to (combat/evade?) that situation, they might be jury rigging races for a successor for the brahmans, then might merge them to the Great Psyche as they were not the optimal successor, then might wait for a new race to emerge and continue the cycle until a worthy race has been found and will be ascended as the brahmans.

Possible theory where the big bang/creation of universe may also be a result of the dawn war/unleashing the next great darkness?

GTVA/UEF were almost technologically as advanced as the vishnans. Hence, they might have planned to merge them to the summed psyche. So why the Deception? Its like you want to give medicine to a kid. But then the kid will fight you as long as you treat it like youre giving it medicine. Instead, you sit with the child, you begin to tell the story/history of medicine, and you scale it down to a kid's level. Hence you omit all the confusing and complex details out, and in turn, you are just achieving what you really wanted: the kid to eat the medicine. As the kid grows, the kid will begin to explore and learn, because the kid is now interested with the vague details. One day, he might be in the same position which you are in: to administer medicine to a kid and the kid doesnt like it.

These are my thoughts, and i'd love inputs and corrections :D

My way of conveying what i talk may be confusing/may make no sense, please bear with me 😅

Thank you :-)

I like your ideas too, a little less downbeat then mine  :p
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on February 01, 2020, 12:25:43 pm
I'm completely fine with the story going down the path of fighting to buy time against the Shivans, or perhaps Vishnans in order to achieve a "true" victory. There are more ways to win than by fighting alone, but to win, you also have to survive.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Rheyah on February 16, 2020, 03:58:06 am
I really liked some of the actively tracked tertiary objective stuff you added in the director's cut of War in Heaven 1.  Goes along the lines of the kind of active ECM monitoring systems you featured in the later campaign and makes the setting feel a bit more complete.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: HydroAmbience on March 15, 2020, 05:37:23 pm
I am confused. Is war in heaven finished? The wiki and some other places say only 3 out of 5 acts are done.
I haven't actually played war in heaven yet, so I'm not sure.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nightmare on March 15, 2020, 06:17:17 pm
It is unfinished, as stated on the wiki.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on March 18, 2020, 06:12:00 pm
I am confused. Is war in heaven finished? The wiki and some other places say only 3 out of 5 acts are done.
I haven't actually played war in heaven yet, so I'm not sure.
FS Modding operates on the HL3 model, when it's done.
And seeing as how now we may actually get a Half-Life 3, that does give me some hope!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on October 04, 2020, 06:13:59 am
Finally beat ‘Her finest hour’. With the assassination and vindicator missions now completed I have finaly got over my ‘BP hurdle’ 🙂

Secondly I realise now why the briefings were sometimes a little confusing - there was no past tense used when syncing with CASSANDRA. Having re-read Blindsight again I realised what was happening - Shivans coms are both no-local and a-casual, so there is no past tense for them, just like Blindsights paleo-vampires. Jukka Sarasti approve this message 😂

PS -speaking of Peter Watts (blindsights ahthor) his ‘rifters’ series has also had a influence in games -Karen S’jet’s body suit from Homeworld was based on the rifters rifter suits. I also suspect that the group consciousness the Fedayeen develop is a nod to the group consciousness the rifters develop. The fact the rifters were composed of   sociopaths and assorted psychos was probably an influence too. I consider this to be a positive BTW, Watts’ work is some of the best sci-fi around, so anything that is similar is bound to be good. (This coming from someone who’s own book is a shameless mixing of Roadside Picnic / STALKER and The Zombie Survival Guide 😎
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 04, 2020, 06:26:21 am
PS -speaking of Peter Watts (blindsights ahthor) his ‘rifters’ series has also had a influence in games -Karen S’jet’s body suit from Homeworld was based on the rifters rifter suits. I also suspect that the group consciousness the Fedayeen develop is a nod to the group consciousness the rifters develop. The fact the rifters were composed of   sociopaths and assorted psychos was probably an influence too. I consider this to be a positive BTW, Watts’ work is some of the best sci-fi around, so anything that is similar is bound to be good. (This coming from someone who’s own book is a shameless mixing of Roadside Picnic / STALKER and The Zombie Survival Guide 😎

it wasn't, really? I mean, both Battuta and I are big fans of Watts (although we have ... criticisms ... of the Rifters trilogy), but a lot of the Fedayeen stuff was influenced more by Richard Morgan's Takeshi Kovacs books (as shown by their names), and Iain Banks' Special Circumstances.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on October 04, 2020, 07:08:59 am
Ah, I’m not familiar with those. Thanks for the heads up 🙂👍 Out of interest, what were your criticisms of the Rifters trilogy (in four parts 😜) ? I enjoyed the first two. Part one of book 3 was ok, but I struggled with part two - the sexual mutilation stuff was a bit much. I think this was the book that was banned for being ‘too depressing.’ In Russia.  :eek2:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: The E on October 04, 2020, 09:34:41 am
Part 1 is good. It's a good book about humans under (literal and metaphysical) pressure, about adaptation and survivability, it's ugly and dark in places , but that is what dealing with trauma is like sometimes.

The other books in the series.... don't feel like they have much more to add. The first book was, as said, an exploration of trauma, with a subplot being the corporate overlords using and creating trauma in order to shape people into useful tools; the other books lose that edge in Lenie Clarke's orgy of revenge and the increasing instability as the world crashes and burns around her. They read as very ... indulgent: it's disaster porn, as Watts tells us of the many ways in which his future society crumbles and falls. βehemoth tries to end the story on a more positive note, but... I think Watts wasn't quite there yet as a storyteller in order to make that whole trilogy work the way he intended. He has immensely improved as a storyteller since then; Blindsight and Echopraxia are much better books, and his short story work (up to and including Freeze-Frame Revolution) is stellar.

In short: Starfish is a great, very much self-contained story. Its sequels feel like Watts trying out large-scope storytelling and kinda failing at it; his other stories, for better or worse, are much more self-contained and more limited in scope, which I think suits his style better.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on December 24, 2021, 03:23:09 am
I might be REALLY late to this party, but I just finished Blue Planet WiH part 2 just recently.  I'd love to know if Part 3 is being developed still?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on December 24, 2021, 11:16:24 am
There was a short-story written with the serial-numbers filed off (Replace Shivan for Nemesis, Alliance for GTVA etc):

Morrigan in the Sunglare, and Morrigan in the Shadow:

https://clarkesworldmagazine.com/dickinson_12_15/

It's a rough draft of how the rest of the War in Heaven arc would have gone. I'm not on discord, but it was never officially cancelled to my knowledge, just put on hold as people did their own projects.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: NFSRacer on December 24, 2021, 11:48:48 am
There was a short-story written with the serial-numbers filed off (Replace Shivan for Nemesis, Alliance for GTVA etc):

Morrigan in the Sunglare, and Morrigan in the Shadow:

https://clarkesworldmagazine.com/dickinson_12_15/

It's a rough draft of how the rest of the War in Heaven arc would have gone. I'm not on discord, but it was never officially cancelled to my knowledge, just put on hold as people did their own projects.

Damn.  I may need to check it out, but I genuinely was enjoying this entire mod story!  Honestly, it was the first time I got to use my HOTAS on a space sim, and it worked perfectly!
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: manwiththemachinegun on December 24, 2021, 03:27:16 pm
It's a damn good read, and in the absence of anything further its canon in my mind.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: genites on February 27, 2022, 10:21:59 am
Same here. I'm glad this was posted as it actually gave me some closure.
Cheers
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on March 07, 2022, 10:08:01 pm
That was a long but hella amazing read.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on March 08, 2022, 12:16:13 pm
That was a long but hella amazing read.

You can listen to it too - there is a tiny audio button near the top of the story (if you are seeing it on Clarkesworld). The narrator is great and has a lovely voice. She also sounds quite a bit like the voice actor who voiced Simms, which is a nice bonus :-)
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Stardust on March 09, 2022, 01:56:56 pm
Who wrote it? Or was it a collaborative effort?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: crizza on March 09, 2022, 04:55:20 pm
AFAIK Battuta himself.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on May 05, 2022, 05:48:10 am
Going to lock this topic for a few days until the bots calm down.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: QuakeIV on May 22, 2022, 01:37:12 pm
As a side note this appears to be a spam bot not a cryptic story fragment
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Trivial Psychic on May 22, 2022, 02:09:23 pm
Persistent little subroutine, isn't it.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Nova Terran on June 13, 2022, 09:20:45 am
Any plan to incorporate Nyctaeus' gorgeous new GVD Nehebkau?
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Elaheh_Aiza on June 13, 2022, 10:41:22 am
You'd have to raise this project from the dead first.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Darius on June 14, 2022, 06:02:35 am
Any plan to incorporate Nyctaeus' gorgeous new GVD Nehebkau?

As many projects as possible should use the Nehebkau  :yes:
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Iain Baker on June 14, 2022, 04:50:27 pm
The TEVs have shiny new destroyers, so the Zods should too 👍
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Colonol Dekker on June 16, 2022, 03:47:52 am
Yes, I always welcome new targets. 
#proTev #killzods
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Bloodwolf on June 21, 2022, 08:35:03 am
I am one of the silent Freespace content gourmets since the very beginning, I felt guilty enough and finally took up my duty to tell the creators how great they are.
It is kind of cheap to just be a consuming phantom.. well the great majority of the players seems to be.

I can only second what so many said. The best story, no actually the best overall sci fi experience on PC. Everything just clicks, story, music, innovative mission design, cool models.

Thanks to the last few posts I figured out that Battuta is responsible for the story and is even a publishing author by now. I will get his Baru Cormorant books, he seems on a good way to be the next George R. R. Martin... his stuff is just really well thought through.

I am replaying War in Heaven at the moment, but cannot wait to try Solaris next. I finally got a great gamepad with adjustable length sticks... now Freespace plays almost as well as in the 90s with long boeder thumb joysticks.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: Grizzly on June 21, 2022, 11:20:38 am
War in Heaven is not just Battuta though, esp. Darius but also Dilmah and The E (and probably a few others, sorry!) worked on the story.

That being said, the Baru Cormerant books are some of the best fiction I've read, period, so I highly recommend them to everyone.
Title: Re: BP: War in Heaven discussion
Post by: taoofcrime on July 05, 2022, 04:51:27 pm
Had a dream the new campaign had a mission where the tevs had a new supergiant elint carrier that was so powerful it could shut down any assets that could get near it. After the war it would break the back of earth by turning that same broadcasting on earth's electronics, making sure the only thing anyone could see or hear was tev propaganda. Your job was to rescue paralyzed units before the tev mopup teams blew them up, doing a new kind of "assemble a strike package" (of course you can't save all of them and have to hear their panicked screams as the hunters get closer). Eventually NAGARI says "well akshually..." and pulls you out.

The next mission briefing tells you that the gestalt fedayeen person was gonna exfiltrate to the colonies to do the Bosch thing and start a third Shivan incursion to force the tevs to pull their assets out. Your exfiltration was accomplished by ambushing a tev hospital ship, killing everyone on board and passing through the gate disguised as wounded soldiers returning home. Lots of moral agonizing but Laporte ultimately decided she could live with it. Was an ironic echo of the first WiH mission where you defend a civilian convoy.

Then I woke up.