[Legate Damar]

I was just saying that kind of disproves the "no intelligence" idea.

[Phantom Hoover]

Yeah, there's a hell of a lot of anthropomorphism simply in trying to fit the Shivans and their actions to a coherent moral code. Consider that the Ancient in FS1 had just watched her species being scoured by them with no warning or reason, and Alpha 1 had only narrowly avoided the same fate; proposing that it happened as part of someone's greater plan is a lot more comforting than that all those people died for no reason at all.

[The E]

I was just saying that kind of disproves the "no intelligence" idea.

No, it actually doesn't. Read Peter Watts' Blindsight to get an idea of what I mean.

[Phantom Hoover]

'Intelligence' and 'consciousness' are two nebulously-defined but very definitely different things.

[Luis Dias]

Yeah, wasn't there a webpage with that story that was linked in this forum some time ago? Included some vampires and so on.

[General Battuta]

I was just saying that kind of disproves the "no intelligence" idea.

Definitely doesn't.

[Phantom Hoover]

This, presumably. I refuse to read it because I'm dangerously prone to ontological dread.

[General Battuta]

This, presumably. I refuse to read it because I'm dangerously prone to ontological dread.

Good call, this book would ****ing slay you.

[Legate Damar]

When you get into that kind of philosophical stuff you can't even prove that you have intelligence.

[Rodo]

and now I'm intrigued.

[The E]

When you get into that kind of philosophical stuff you can't even prove that you have intelligence.

In the same way that a mathematician cannot prove that 1 + 1 = 2, this is correct.

[Luis Dias]

Anyway, the analogy is somewhat off. It is true that in AoA we do see the Shivans communicating with the Vishnans, negociating what to do next. I really do not care in the slightest if the Shivans have no consciousness, or "intelligence" as you seem inclined to define, what matters is they have some kind of neural net that is understanding intent from their Vishnans counterparts and communicating their own intent. "Blindsight" depicts a too different scenario, one where an alien uses a chinese room to deflect the protagonists from the alien's true purpose.

[General Battuta]

Everything that happened during Universal Truth was delivered to Sam by the Vishnans. It could have been a wholesale fabrication. Now, from a meta-storytelling dramatic standpoint I'd find that pretty unsatisfying...but I'd be hesitant to read too much into the fairly simple personifications offered there.

[Phantom Hoover]

How much of it was delivered and how much of it was Sam himself trying to fit things to a familiar model?

[Luis Dias]

How much of it was delivered and how much of it was Sam himself trying to fit things to a familiar model?

Both? There's no territory, there's only the map. There is no objective reality, everything is a model.

[Phantom Hoover]

*sigh* What I meant to ask was, how much of it was Vishnan fabrication/deception/simplification and how much was Sam himself?

[The E]

Given the way Nagari communications work, it is hard to tell where this line is.

[Luis Dias]

*sigh* What I meant to ask was, how much of it was Vishnan fabrication/deception/simplification and how much was Sam himself?

Sorry my answer sounded facetious. It wasn't, I assure you. I... just can't explain what I mean better.

[Phantom Hoover]

No, I was mostly frustrated with myself for phrasing it to sound like I'd missed the point.

[Legate Damar]

I hate solipsism