[Akalabeth Angel]

That is true, but you're wrong in saying that the original trilogy didn't place these jedi "front and center". In fact, if anything, the "new ones" walked the walk, and the originals only talked the talk. Benkept saying that without Luke, everything would be lost, the empire would win, etc., etc., (while Yoda pointed out there was another) as if this one jedi was the difference between victory and defeat of the whole war between the empire and the rebels.

I think you're placing more importance on vague statements than is really warranted.  Especially when those statements don't align with the actions of the subsequent film.
http://www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-The-Empire-Strikes-Back.html

      BEN
      It is you and your abilities the
      Emperor wants.  that is why your
      friends are made to suffer.

            LUKE
      And that is why I have to go.

            BEN
      Luke, I don't want to lose you to
      the Emperor the way I lost Vader.

            LUKE
      You won't.

            YODA
      Stopped they must be.  On this
      all depends.  Only a fully trained
      Jedi Knight with the Force as his
      ally will conquer Vader and his
      Emperor.  If you end your training
      now, if you choose the quick and
      easy path, as Vader did, you will
      become an agent of evil.

Yes Yoda says that everything depends on stopping Vader & the Emperor.  But- is that placing special importance on the Jedi?  I'm sure someone told would-be assassins of Hitler that everything relied on them getting the job done, doesn't mean the war didn't still end after they had failed.

Of course, if you actually watch RotJ, this notion is preposterous. Yes, he convinced Vader to kill Palpatine, but I'm pretty sure the blastwave from the core reactor explosion ignited by the Falcon would also do the trick.

Even this statement is wrong mate.  Luke didn't convince Vader to kill the Emperor, Luke convinced Vader that the bond they had, father and son, was more important than his bond to the Emperor.  There's a very big difference between "I need to kill this guy" and "I need to help my son".

The Emperor died moments before the Rebel Fighters entered the death star via the surface, at least portrayed in the movie. And in the time it takes them to hit the reactor, Luke though exhausted at having been electrocuted for 30 seconds, manages to help his dad to the hangar bay, have a heart to heart, drag him onto a shuttle and ditch the place before it blows.  Pretty sure that the Emperor, unencumbered with a father to support, could have made that same evacuation in half the time had he not been busy with death and all.


Like I said, the Jedi stories in the original trilogy are personal stories against a wider conflict.  The goals of that conflict are becoming a Jedi and defeating the Emperor.  Luke confronts Vader not to win the war, but to become a Jedi, and he confronts the Emperor to defeat him- not to again, win the war. 

Look at how Luke defeats the Emperor: he defeated him by refusing to kill Vader.   How is that going to win the war? It wont. But it will win the personal conflict.

End of Jedi is actually a war examined at different levels. There's the macro, impersonal and huge space battle. There's the very personal father vs son in the throne room. And there's the personal, small-unit conflict on the moon with rank and file soldiers and rebels.  None of them is more important than the other, they're three aspects of one conflict and each have importance and have a role in the victory.

[Luis Dias]

Oh come on let's not be pedantic, ok? I've seen the movie 20 times or some such, of course I wasn't saying that he convinced Vader to kill Palpatine literally. He asked for his help and Vader then killed Palpatine.

There's a overwhelming importance given to the Jedi in the original movies, in contrast to what they actually do, which is little more than being good Bond-like agents with light swords. The very fact that Luke is brought to the Emperor and given the chance to fight in his own hall is proof of this over importance to this kind of people. Maybe these people all think all too highly on themselves, and this is actually a clever commentary on the foolishness of people who believe in magic, letting that belief create fragilities in their own military protocols? Would have Hitler ever invited the best french swordsman to his own hall and invited him to kill him?

The prequels walked the talk. IF the Jedi were so important, they had to be almost godlike in their feats. I don't think this particular thing is what drove the movies to be bad, but I also don't think it helped.

[The E]

Interesting to note here is that Luke holding off Ren and the First Order is the most Jedi thing any Jedi has ever done in the films. That scene was more true to what the Jedi said they were or believed in than pretty much anything else.

[mjn.mixael]

And Luke is still the absolute least of TLJ's problems.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Oh come on let's not be pedantic, ok? I've seen the movie 20 times or some such, of course I wasn't saying that he convinced Vader to kill Palpatine literally. He asked for his help and Vader then killed Palpatine.

It's not pedantic, I'm simply questioning whether you understand the underlying meaning of that scene.
How people choose to describe things often betrays their over-arching interpretation or understanding of events.

There's a overwhelming importance given to the Jedi in the original movies

Where? By Whom?

in contrast to what they actually do, which is little more than being good Bond-like agents with light swords.

How are the Jedi like British secret agents?

The very fact that Luke is brought to the Emperor and given the chance to fight in his own hall is proof of this over importance to this kind of people.

How is that proof of their over importance?

[Grizzly]

And Luke is still the absolute least of TLJ's problems.

I like how I walked away from the film with positive feelings, whilst you walked away with negative feelings, and we both feel the same about the films problems either way

[Akalabeth Angel]

What I don't understand is how fans like this film less than Force Awakens.  Was everyone banking on Last Jedi redeeming Force Awakens failings? And when it failed to do so, you were just hit with massive disappointment?

Who's Rey's parents? Nobodies.
How did the First Order come to be? Who cares.
Whattup with this Snoke guy? He dead.
What badassery is Luke up to on secret planet? Milking Walruses.


To misquote the worst Jedi ever, people thought that The Last Jedi would fulfill the prophecy and bring balance to the Force Awakens, and when it didn't, people felt betrayed?

[BlueFlames]

How did the First Order come to be? Who cares.

I mean, people wanted to know how The Empire came to be, and we got the prequel trilogy.

[Black Wolf]

What I don't understand is how fans like this film less than Force Awakens. 

Because while TFA had its flaws, it had a consistent tone, didn't undercut it's dramatic moments with poorly played humour, more or less followed the established rules of the Star Wars universe, and, most importantly, it served it's purposes - to reboot Star Wars, introduce a new set of likable protagonists, interesting antagonists, and set up story threads for the next movie/movies to follow while telling an interesting, self contained story.

As a direct sequel, and the middle movie in a trilogy, TLJ had a different set of purposes - to develop existing characters, introduce new ones as required, follow and develop the plot threads from the first movie and set up an epic climax in movie three, while telling an interesting, self contained story.

While people disagree about whether TLJ managed that last bit, I don't think it came close to managing the jobs of following the story threads laid out for it in TFA. Instead, they were all unceremoniously cut, and nothing new was laid down to replace them. I can understand (though I disagree with) people who claim TLJ was a good movie, but there's no way I'll ever be convinced it was a good sequel.

Combine that with the by now well trodden complaints (Canto Bight, Hux, "humour", Phasma, Luke, hyperspace ramming, Leia flying, not telling Poe the plan, etc. etc.), any one or two of which might have been overlooked otherwise, and the response shouldn't be surprising.

[mjn.mixael]

TFA is a mixed bag of good things. You won't like all of it, but there's enough fun sprinkled throughout that everyone will find something to like.

TLJ is a mixed bag of bad things. You won't hate all of it, but there's enough stupidity sprinkled throughout that everyone will find something hate.


I think that about sums it up. Also what BW said. As a sequel, it's very poor.

[Luis Dias]

How is that proof of their over importance?

Imagine an emperor of some random empire bringing a skilled swordsman that is out to kill him to his presence, so he could "turn him". And he does that by letting him best your second-in-command so he could substitute him. How is this not a proof of the over importance of this sort of people, that you're willing to do this sort of stuff.

Combine that with the by now well trodden complaints (Canto Bight, Hux, "humour", Phasma, Luke, hyperspace ramming, Leia flying, not telling Poe the plan, etc. etc.), any one or two of which might have been overlooked otherwise, and the response shouldn't be surprising.

I'm not buying any one of those complaints though. The response is not surprising given the aforementioned market of dunking on everything that strays off the established things that Will Never Be Changed Or Else GamerGate Will Happen Again. Or something.

[Akalabeth Angel]

What I don't understand is how fans like this film less than Force Awakens. 

Because while TFA had its flaws, it had a consistent tone, didn't undercut it's dramatic moments with poorly played humour, more or less followed the established rules of the Star Wars universe, and, most importantly, it served it's purposes - to reboot Star Wars, introduce a new set of likable protagonists, interesting antagonists, and set up story threads for the next movie/movies to follow while telling an interesting, self contained story.

As a direct sequel, and the middle movie in a trilogy, TLJ had a different set of purposes - to develop existing characters, introduce new ones as required, follow and develop the plot threads from the first movie and set up an epic climax in movie three, while telling an interesting, self contained story.

Okay sorry, now I have a new question.
Why are you celebrating Episode VII as a reboot and not judging it as a sequel?

How is that proof of their over importance?

Imagine an emperor of some random empire bringing a skilled swordsman that is out to kill him to his presence, so he could "turn him". And he does that by letting him best your second-in-command so he could substitute him. How is this not a proof of the over importance of this sort of people, that you're willing to do this sort of stuff.

If the Emperor were not a force user, I might see your point.  But it's implied he's a force user and a powerful one, he was only killed because he was taken by surprise by Vader.  Was he in danger from Luke while Luke was his centre of attention?

Most of the main Empire doesn't seem to care about the Jedi. In Empire Vader is looking for Luke, but he does it under the pretext of hunting the Rebels. The Empire is hunting the Rebels and Vader is hunting Luke at the same time.

Combine that with the by now well trodden complaints (Canto Bight, Hux, "humour", Phasma, Luke, hyperspace ramming, Leia flying, not telling Poe the plan, etc. etc.), any one or two of which might have been overlooked otherwise, and the response shouldn't be surprising.

I'm not buying any one of those complaints though. The response is not surprising given the aforementioned market of dunking on everything that strays off the established things that Will Never Be Changed Or Else GamerGate Will Happen Again. Or something.

I will agree with the humour, which I think was some injection of Disney ****. The birds, the little man in the Casino, that sort of garbage is the stuff we saw in the Special Editions not the old movies.  Maybe part of the problem is that they're trying to inject humour but no longer have 3PO and R2 around to provide constant levity. BB8 can get laughs but he needs another character interacting with it.

Overall though I would give those scenes a pass because while I dislike the humour, the dramatic scenes in Last Jed have tension whereas in Force Awakens I felt they never do.  Things come too easily to characters in Force Awakens, sometimes handed to them when they're not even looking for it.  And it's not like a lot of tension in Last Jedi, but it's there a in a few places.

[Mongoose]

I see people complaining about humor, and then I think about Yoda screwing with Luke when he first lands on Dagobah. "Ooh? Awwwww!"

[Aesaar]

I have a hard time finding things I like in TFA.  I disliked it when I first saw it and that feeling only grew over subsequent viewings.  It's just so incredibly bland.  Hell, I like Revenge of the Sith a lot more than I like TFA.

Things come too easily to characters in Force Awakens, sometimes handed to them when they're not even looking for it.

This.  So very much this.

[Akalabeth Angel]

I see people complaining about humor, and then I think about Yoda screwing with Luke when he first lands on Dagobah. "Ooh? Awwwww!"

Or C3PO complaining that he can't see when Han is being frozen in carbonite.

[Black Wolf]

What I don't understand is how fans like this film less than Force Awakens. 

Because while TFA had its flaws, it had a consistent tone, didn't undercut it's dramatic moments with poorly played humour, more or less followed the established rules of the Star Wars universe, and, most importantly, it served it's purposes - to reboot Star Wars, introduce a new set of likable protagonists, interesting antagonists, and set up story threads for the next movie/movies to follow while telling an interesting, self contained story.

As a direct sequel, and the middle movie in a trilogy, TLJ had a different set of purposes - to develop existing characters, introduce new ones as required, follow and develop the plot threads from the first movie and set up an epic climax in movie three, while telling an interesting, self contained story.

Okay sorry, now I have a new question.
Why are you celebrating Episode VII as a reboot and not judging it as a sequel?

Because of its place within the broader structure of the series. RotJ is a narrative full stop. It finishes the stories started in the previous movies. TFA is the start of a new set of stories - the (mostly) new cast, new place in the timeline, new villain etc. all set it pretty clearly apart from what came immediately before it. Not so for TLJ, which is a narrative semicolon - everything before and after are going to be pretty effectively isolated from each other, which is not what you want out of the middle film in a trilogy.

It still gets judged as part of the franchise by how well it follows the established rules of the universe - pretty much every movie since the original has been judged that way. And TFA passes that test far better than TLJ, IMO.

As for the humour, it's partially subjective, partially timing, and partially volume for me. Last Jedi had too many (volume) bad (subjective) jokes that undercut what should have been dramatic moments. Consider K2-SO from Rogue One. He'd effectively been the comic relief of that movie, but they used him sparingly, and during his death scene, that was all left aside so that the audience could feel the emotional significance of the moment. There are very few points in Last Jedi where you're allowed to feel anything.

[Aesaar]

There are very few points in Last Jedi where you're allowed to feel anything.

I'd argue TFA does something far worse than that:  In a very JJ Abrams fashion, it takes its subject material for granted and demands you feel a certain way but refuses to actually work to deliver those emotions.  You're expected to cheer at the Millennium Falcon blowing some TIE fighters or from Rey beating Kylo Ren or the Resistance blowing up Starkiller base, but there's no real journey to any of that.  Here, have the Millennium Falcon, you're good at flying it!  Here, have a lightsaber, you're good at wielding it!  Here, use the Force to perform a mind trick.  It's sure good you know how to do it when you only learned the Force was real an hour of movie ago!  No work involved at all.

You're supposed to feel a certain way because when a very similar thing happened in the original trilogy, that's how it felt.   All it's saying is "remember the original trilogy?  Here it is again!"

TFA feels like mediocre fanfiction.  It's the Star Wars version of Star Trek Into Darkness.  TLJ, for all its flaws, at least tries to do something new.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Because of its place within the broader structure of the series. RotJ is a narrative full stop. It finishes the stories started in the previous movies. TFA is the start of a new set of stories - the (mostly) new cast, new place in the timeline, new villain etc. all set it pretty clearly apart from what came immediately before it. Not so for TLJ, which is a narrative semicolon - everything before and after are going to be pretty effectively isolated from each other, which is not what you want out of the middle film in a trilogy.

I would agree if not for the fact they called it Episode VII.  If they just wanted to reboot it they should have just put the story in the universe but otherwise separate, but instead they put a VII on it and threw in the old cast to get it legitimacy.  Once you put the VII on there, it should have some through-line from the previous movie, and TFA has next to nothing.  Han & Leia had a son.  Luke did Jedi things. And that's pretty much the whole story.  The Last Jedi I feel is actually a better sequel to the original six movies because it establishes what happens to Luke between the movies.

It still gets judged as part of the franchise by how well it follows the established rules of the universe - pretty much every movie since the original has been judged that way. And TFA passes that test far better than TLJ, IMO.

My personal theory is that a lot of fans were so dissatisfied with the prequel trilogy that they just wanted to see something more familiar, and Abrams, having liberally copy/pasted story elements from the original trilogy gave them exactly what they wanted.  For my part, I watched TFA on the tail end of re-watching the original trilogy so the movie was very familiar.  For me TFA did accomplish one thing that I thought no movie ever could, it made me appreciate the prequels more for the fact that they added more the universe than TFA does.

As for the humour, it's partially subjective, partially timing, and partially volume for me. Last Jedi had too many (volume) bad (subjective) jokes that undercut what should have been dramatic moments. Consider K2-SO from Rogue One. He'd effectively been the comic relief of that movie, but they used him sparingly, and during his death scene, that was all left aside so that the audience could feel the emotional significance of the moment. There are very few points in Last Jedi where you're allowed to feel anything.

Having not seen Solo, I would say Rogue One is the best of the new movies.
I would agree that TLJ's comedy was bad, for me it was the worst parts of the movie from start to finish.  But otherwise I enjoyed it. I don't know if the Comedy is Rian Johnson, Abrams, or Disney- but given the merchandise possibilities of those dumb birds, I would guess it's Disney.

[Black Wolf]

There are very few points in Last Jedi where you're allowed to feel anything.

I'd argue TFA does something far worse than that:  In a very JJ Abrams fashion, it takes its subject material for granted and demands you feel a certain way but refuses to actually work to deliver those emotions.  You're expected to cheer at the Millennium Falcon blowing some TIE fighters or from Rey beating Kylo Ren or the Resistance blowing up Starkiller base, but there's no real journey to any of that.  Here, have the Millennium Falcon, you're good at flying it!  Here, have a lightsaber, you're good at wielding it!  Here, use the Force to perform a mind trick.  It's sure good you know how to do it when you only learned the Force was real an hour of movie ago!  No work involved at all.

I basically agree. TFA is a flawed movie. Rey in particular suffers as a character because she's good at everything with zero effort*. I'm not defending TFA as a perfect movie (although it served it's purpose in that I walked out of the cinema happy the first two times I saw it, and it holds up reasonably well on re-watch). I'm defending it as a much better movie than Last Jedi.

*That we see on screen, I.e. That matters. I've posted about this before, I can't be bothered igging it up right now.

I would agree if not for the fact they called it Episode VII.  If they just wanted to reboot it they should have just put the story in the universe but otherwise separate, but instead they put a VII on it and threw in the old cast to get it legitimacy.  Once you put the VII on there, it should have some through-line from the previous movie, and TFA has next to nothing.

Okay. You're allowed to think that, but I think you're misguided.

To me, the title is a minor element compared with the narrative structure of the films, both as individual elements and combined into a series. Ask yourself the question: Would your opinion be so radically changed if they'd just called it Star Wars 7, instead of episode 7? Or just Star Wars: The Force Awakens? Everything else stays the same, just those two words are removed, and your opinion completely changes?

I would agree that TLJ's comedy was bad, for me it was the worst parts of the movie from start to finish.  But otherwise I enjoyed it. I don't know if the Comedy is Rian Johnson, Abrams, or Disney- but given the merchandise possibilities of those dumb birds, I would guess it's Disney.

I would imagine a combination. For me, the bad jokes were the biggest factor that tipped TLJ into bad movie territory. I could (and do) overlook a bad or ill timed joke or two in an otherwise good movie. But dozens of them in an movie filled with other flaws is not something I'm going to forgive when deciding if a film is good it not.

[Mongoose]

Dozens?  Really?  Come on.  This wasn't Jar-Jar stepping in alien **** or Anakin ****ing up his way to victory or anything heinous like that.