Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: rubixcube on June 11, 2018, 02:15:17 am
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We all know Jason Scott was the lead writer on FS2, my question is, who wrote FS1?
I'm 90% sure Jason had no involvement in the first game (maybe I'm wrong).
Did the game developers (Mike and Matt) just write it themselves?
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From the FS1 Credits:
Story & Writing
Adam Pletcher
Mike Kulas
Sandeep Shekar
Michael Comet
Duncan McPherson
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From the FS1 Credits:
Story & Writing
Adam Pletcher
Mike Kulas
Sandeep Shekar
Michael Comet
Duncan McPherson
Ah, so it was basically the devs cobbling together a story between them, that makes sense
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It was primarily Adam Pletcher. IIRC one of the SpaceGameJunkie interviews mentioned that it was his idea to make a space game in the first place, and he wrote the story outline. He's also listed as Lead Game Designer.
Jason Scott must have been involved with Silent Threat though, because he voices his namesake Admiral Scott in the briefings.
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Jason Scott must have been involved with Silent Threat though, because he voices his namesake Admiral Scott in the briefings.
With the writing though? If so he must've been in a rush or off his game, cuz the writing in that was terrible.
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I have two conjectures about that:
1) He used Silent Threat as a "proving ground" and improved from ST to FS2.
2) He may not have been involved in the copyediting/wordsmithing of the mission text. Someone else might have polished up the text in FS2, but because ST was done in a short amount of time, the same service was not performed for that campaign. In other words, ST was more like a rough draft but FS2 went through several drafts and rewrites.
The "tactics, technologies, activities, and strategic objectives" overview is almost identical between the initial ST briefing and the SOC mission loop.
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I have two conjectures about that:
1) He used Silent Threat as a "proving ground" and improved from ST to FS2.
2) He may not have been involved in the copyediting/wordsmithing of the mission text. Someone else might have polished up the text in FS2, but because ST was done in a short amount of time, the same service was not performed for that campaign. In other words, ST was more like a rough draft but FS2 went through several drafts and rewrites.
The "tactics, technologies, activities, and strategic objectives" overview is almost identical between the initial ST briefing and the SOC mission loop.
Never actually noticed that, but damn your right, then again I haven't played the original ST in a while.
I was never a huge fan of FS1's story; the invincibly shielded Lucy always struck me as a cheap plot device. Something an inexperienced writing team needed to move the story along.
It's fortunate Jason Scott went with something more creative. It's also probably why we never see the Lucy again.
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Play Deneb III. You might be pretty pleased at how it addresses that part of canon. :)
Volition has stated that the Lucifer wasn't invulnerable per se, just that the Terrans and Vasudans didn't really have weapons powerful enough to damage it.
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Play Deneb III. You might be pretty pleased at how it addresses that part of canon. :)
Volition has stated that the Lucifer wasn't invulnerable per se, just that the Terrans and Vasudans didn't really have weapons powerful enough to damage it.
I shall...
That explanation is plausible when referring to Terrans and Vasudans during FS1.
However, I find it difficult to believe a multi-galaxy spanning empire could not bring enough firepower to bear on one ship to outstrip its shielding system. (especially if they have something like the Akrotiri ;)). Unless the Shivans have multiple Lucifers.
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Volition has stated that the Lucifer wasn't invulnerable per se, just that the Terrans and Vasudans didn't really have weapons powerful enough to damage it.
Interesting. But the Colossus had enough firepower to damage it directly (or atleast, I'd guess that).
One of the problems you have with these superships is that the writers sometimes forget something. For example you could have some bombers enter Lucys fighterbay and blow up. Vasudans actually did Kamikaze, so why not in a meaningful way?
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However, I find it difficult to believe a multi-galaxy spanning empire could not bring enough firepower to bear on one ship to outstrip its shielding system. (especially if they have something like the Akrotiri ;)).
Well, if we take the quote from the cutscene at face value...
Only these were not like the others. They did not die.
...then the Ancients never figured out how to beat even the standard fighter shields. They were fighting the entire FS1 campaign with the ML-16.
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But on the wiki I read that the huge flag wasn't implemented properly in FS1, so the Ancients could've killed even the Lucy with ML-16s only. Too bad they didn't knew that...
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If you take it as a given that the Ancients despite their massive (apparently multigalactic) reach couldn't defeat the Shivans, a few things fall into place. Actually paying attention to the FS1 Ancient anis paints a picture I doubt that Volition ever intended. The Ancients filled up their galaxy without subspace, which means they probably used a combination of von Neumann colonists and good ol relativistic rocketry. Even once they had subspace their tech base was probably pretty heterogeneous. If you take it as a given that projectiles are **** against shields, the Lucifer makes a lot of sense as a ship that can withstand relativistic kinetic bombardment.
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That's why I prefer writers that know the difference between galaxy and solar systems.
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If you take it as a given that the Ancients despite their massive (apparently multigalactic) reach couldn't defeat the Shivans, a few things fall into place. Actually paying attention to the FS1 Ancient anis paints a picture I doubt that Volition ever intended. The Ancients filled up their galaxy without subspace, which means they probably used a combination of von Neumann colonists and good ol relativistic rocketry. Even once they had subspace their tech base was probably pretty heterogeneous. If you take it as a given that projectiles are **** against shields, the Lucifer makes a lot of sense as a ship that can withstand relativistic kinetic bombardment.
I'll nitpick this by saying that the Ancients only conquered their "reachable systems" without subspace. The galaxy came later.
But otherwise, this is good thinking. Sesq and I did similar speculating while fleshing out some of the details of Scroll. Here is a command briefing stage that we decided to cut because it solidified some things we wanted to leave vague...
$Stage Text:
XSTR("Paradigm Shift
The discovery of this new portal has forced us to reconsider a great deal of our historical understanding of the Ancient Empire, particularly the common assumption that the Ancients' territory was essentially limited to what is now Vasudan-Terran space. Our research team has proposed that the Ancients first built the Marnakh portal to reach Beta Cygni, then spent the next several thousand seasons colonizing the systems in the local subspace node network before building the portal to the nebula. The fact that the Marnakh portal is very similar in design to the portal discovered in Gamma Draconis, despite their significant difference in ages, suggests that the Ancients had already reached their technological peak by that time.
The implications of this theory are profound. Both Vasudan and Terran historians had believed that the Ancients' expansion throughout Vasudan-Terran space was indicative of a vibrant and growing civilization. But if the Ancients had been expanding long enough for their civilization to become mature and stable, then their territory must have spanned hundreds of additional systems beyond what we now know. Perhaps the Ancients were not exaggerating when they boasted that their empire spanned the galaxy.", -1)
$end_multi_text
$Ani Filename: Intel_Ancients.ani or cb_sm1-05_d.ani
+Wave Filename: none
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If you take it as a given that the Ancients despite their massive (apparently multigalactic) reach couldn't defeat the Shivans, a few things fall into place. Actually paying attention to the FS1 Ancient anis paints a picture I doubt that Volition ever intended. The Ancients filled up their galaxy without subspace, which means they probably used a combination of von Neumann colonists and good ol relativistic rocketry. Even once they had subspace their tech base was probably pretty heterogeneous. If you take it as a given that projectiles are **** against shields, the Lucifer makes a lot of sense as a ship that can withstand relativistic kinetic bombardment.
Calling projectile weapons S****y vs shields is a little harsh:
The Avenger is 68% effective
Most missiles are 50% effective
The THT is the worst at 40%
The ML-16 is only 10% effective, but this is technically not a projectile weapon
Bombs are almost entirely useless, but I think this is an anti-frustration feature and should not be taken at face value
Granted we don't know how Ancient Projectile weapons performed, but assuming they point several dozen destroyers worth of them at the Lucifer, plus thousands of bombers, its difficult to believe the Lucy's shields would hold.
But of course, it's also open to interpretation how large/advanced the ancient fleet was; did it consist of mostly cruisers/corvettes with a few destroyers? Or was it made up of hundreds of destroyers? Did it even include juggernaut sized vessels?
Did they only use kinetic weapons? Did they posses any kind of DEW's?
I guess I wouldn't have as much of a problem if the Lucifer was bigger, like almost Juggernaut size, then its overwhelming shield durability would make more sense.
The in game model is the same size as a standard destroyer, so the fact that it's shields are soooo tough comes off as cheap.
As it is right now, the Lucifer's reactor power to mass ratio must be an order of magnitude greater than any other Shivan vessel.
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I hew to the BP fiction explaining the Lucifer and other tech irregularities because I think it's the best fit (and the most interesting take on them as an alien intelligence.
I'll nitpick this by saying that the Ancients only conquered their "reachable systems" without subspace. The galaxy came later.
The last spatial limit they mention before running out of systems is 'galaxy' and there's not really enough structure in the galaxy to see why you'd possibly strike a barrier before that. If you have the most rudimentary interstellar capability you'll fill up the galaxy in a (by cosmological standards) flash. It's the parsimonious reading.
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The Ancients' cutscenes do a lot of work for their brevity. The "They did not die" line makes it pretty clear that they were completely out matched and there is 0 information on their fleet makeup but I'd pin their technology level behind the Terrans and Vasudans at the start of FS1.
I also want to throw out there that the Avenger was specifically tuned to perform better against shields than it would have otherwise after the events of "Out of the Dark, Into the Night".
As far as the quality of writing in FS1, sure if you compare it to things outside of the medium the writing itself is utilitarian as hell, but it's how the rest of the game works that fills in the writing's weaknesses. I also want to point out that FS1 is one of the few games (to my knowledge) that has actually executed on cosmic horror well from the get go and a lot of it is because the Shivans are unique to the FS universe. (basically what I'm devoting most of a YouTube channel to)
Yes FS1's plot complexity pales in comparison to FS2's but FS1 executed on its ideas well, exceptionally well for a game, and has more politics in FS1 than it makes obvious. The underlying politics are what Jason latched onto and ran with in 2. There was stuff heavily implied from the first briefing that gets glossed over a lot and the whole McCarthy Avenger thing is another motion to the direction ST and 2 were going to go in.
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The Ancients' cutscenes do a lot of work for their brevity. The "They did not die" line makes it pretty clear that they were completely out matched and there is 0 information on their fleet makeup but I'd pin their technology level behind the Terrans and Vasudans at the start of FS1.
I would agree, unfortunately the FS wiki states "comments by Volition developers state that the Ancients were no more than a few decades ahead of the GTA and PVN at the time of FreeSpace 1, except in the area of subspace."
Admittedly I can't actually cite this information, in fact I doubt even V would know.
I also want to throw out there that the Avenger was specifically tuned to perform better against shields than it would have otherwise after the events of "Out of the Dark, Into the Night".
That is true, but we can assume the Ancients would have also adapted their weapons to perform better against shields.
The GTA and PVN managed to advance their weaponry in just a few months, presumably, the Ancients would have had years (depending on how long the ASW lasted).
I by no means think FS1 is a bad game or has bad writing, but the Lucifer felt like a crutch for developers who hadn't quite found their feet yet.
Jason ensured FS2 eliminated this crutch, and was better for it.
The reason the Lucy's shields get questioned so often is because they fall apart under scrutiny. We're behaving like religious scholars; twisting ourselves into pretzels to explain away points that don't quite make sense.
These pretzels are often delicious however e.g. the BP Lucy tech description :D
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The "a few decades ahead" thing is vague beyond belief and while yeah I think it's reasonable to say the galaxy spanning imperialists were more advanced than the Terrans and Vasudans, it still doesn't leave me with the impression their weapons would have been more effective. The other thing the cutscenes emphasize, almost more than anything else, was the hubris the ancients had (which is probably why it took them so long to learn anything about the Shivans).
One of the things I'll eventually go into more detail about the Shivans' evolution from 1 to 2. A huge part of why FS2 works is because of the expectations set by the Lucifer in 1. It's a different way of representing the core themes of cosmic horror than the Sathanas fleet so idk if I'd call it a crutch. It's a pretty good example of the whole "inevitable ending" in games.
Yeah the shield stuff is wonky (that said it has an order of magnitude more HP than anything else in FS1 and having the only beam canons in a battle makes a lot of stuff not matter)
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The other thing the cutscenes emphasize, almost more than anything else, was the hubris the ancients had (which is probably why it took them so long to learn anything about the Shivans).
That's true, in the final cutscene it is stated the Terrans "learned how to survive" in their war with the Vasudans.
The Ancients likely never faced a species equal in strength, therefore never learned how to adapt to or fight an enemy who could meaningfully resist.
A huge part of why FS2 works is because of the expectations set by the Lucifer in 1.
We're expecting to see the crutch again and are pleasantly surprised when we don't.
Instead of cheating by giving the big bad ship an invulnerability flag, effort was put in to make the ship threatening on its own merit.
Yeah the shield stuff is wonky (that said it has an order of magnitude more HP than anything else in FS1 and having the only beam canons in a battle makes a lot of stuff not matter)
I suspect the developer conversation when something like this:
Dev1: How do we make the Lucifer invincible?
Dev2: Give it a crazy strong shielding system!
Dev1: How strong?
Dev2: Like 800,000 shield HP!
Dev1: Cool, unfortunately we don't have time to make a cap-ship shield mesh.
Dev2: Uhh, then just give it 800,000 hull HP!
Dev1: Sure, but that still means players can take out its main cannons, also the big damage flag doesn't work.
Dev2: Fine whatever, just give it an invulnerability flag.
The primary advantage shields give the Lucifer is immunity to anti-subsystem strikes, without them, it can still be de-fanged.
This also raises the question of why we don't see cap-ship shielding in FS2; even with beams, they provide valuable protection from bombers, we'd have to attack the Saths beams in subspace!
I hypothesis Volition intended to give all ships (from fighters to Destroyers) a shielding system, but had to drop it due to technical issues.
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I would guess technical issues and game balancing were probably the main reason. Also I don't think the FS1 engine even had a huge flag (but I could be wrong)
The other thing is that beam cannons likely ignore shields regardless of strength (the AA beams in FS2 don't care about shields). I could also imagine the energy drain between beams and generating a shield that large wouldn't go well together and you'd end up in the Lucifer situation again but worse since you'd be under gunned in a world of shield piercing beam cannons and still having the big fat reactor targets.
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The other thing is that beam cannons likely ignore shields regardless of strength (the AA beams in FS2 don't care about shields). I could also imagine the energy drain between beams and generating a shield that large wouldn't go well together and you'd end up in the Lucifer situation again but worse since you'd be under gunned in a world of shield piercing beam cannons and still having the big fat reactor targets.
I will partially concede this point; the beam cannon thing is the only semi-reasonable explanation we have.
However the reactors are not easy to hit if your beams don't target subsystems, so you're basically relying on luck that you'll take them out.
We also have no information on the power requirements of shields vs beam cannons, e.g. do the Lucy's shields require more or less power than an extra LRED? The square cube law should mean its easier to shield a larger vessel.
Ironically I don't think it was Volition's intention to have Beams pierces shields. I remember Goober saying it was a bug Volition didn't have time to fix, so they just rolled with it. If this bug had been rectified, our only rational explanation would be irrelevant.
I might try Curse of Prescience but give the Lucifer her shields back along with her stock FS1 armament. That would make her reactors impossible to take out, but also allow the arbiters to hammer away on her flank, also she wouldn't be able to jump out.
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IIRC Volition stated that the Ancients were slightly ahead of Terrans and Vasudans from FS1, aside subspace tech.
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I will partially concede this point; the beam cannon thing is the only semi-reasonable explanation we have.
However the reactors are not easy to hit if your beams don't target subsystems, so you're basically relying on luck that you'll take them out.
We also have no information on the power requirements of shields vs beam cannons, e.g. do the Lucy's shields require more or less power than an extra LRED? The square cube law should mean its easier to shield a larger vessel.
(Whether or not the slashes are good) The Terrans and Vasudans created slashing beams specifically for the purpose of hitting as many subsystems as possible.
Ironically I don't think it was Volition's intention to have Beams pierces shields. I remember Goober saying it was a bug Volition didn't have time to fix, so they just rolled with it. If this bug had been rectified, our only rational explanation would be irrelevant.
I might try Curse of Prescience but give the Lucifer her shields back along with her stock FS1 armament. That would make her reactors impossible to take out, but also allow the arbiters to hammer away on her flank, also she wouldn't be able to jump out.
That doesn't surprise me that the shield piercing started as a bug, having done programming on that type of thing before. After all, beams were the only raycast weapons in the game.
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(Whether or not the slashes are good) The Terrans and Vasudans created slashing beams specifically for the purpose of hitting as many subsystems as possible.
Really? I thought it was just to look cool.
At some point I should test that in FRED; see how long it takes for a few Deimos corvettes to take the Lucy's reactors out.