Author Topic: E3 2018 *Spoilers*  (Read 1068 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Reality is the finest flesh...
    • Steam
    • Twitter
(still haven't seen the full Ubisoft conference)

- Skull and Bones - Is it just me or is the cinematic trailer getting more incoherent as it goes on? - Game look still good though, but, catch me up here, they cut playable boarding actions?

- Ghost of Tsushima - The envoirment looks gorgeous, can't see the same for the non-cinematic camera work and non-combat animations... Colour me intrigued... (Also, "Leaves Technology!")

- Death Stranding - I've found the work of Hideo Kojima impossible to penetrate so far, and the trend continues with this ... but maybe a clean slate as compared to Metal Gear Solid might actually help...

"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 
Devil May Cry 5 has won so far with the sheer hype factor.

But incase you missed, the most awesome, most AMERICAN, Mech game ever is finally coming to western audiences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_395DCBLF0

 

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Reality is the finest flesh...
    • Steam
    • Twitter

Nintendo just won E3
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline Mongoose

  • Rikki-Tikki-Tavi
  • Global Moderator
  • 212
  • This brain for rent.
    • Minecraft
    • Steam
    • Something
Smash 5: "yeah **** it you get everyone"

 

Offline Rhymes

  • Galactic Mediator
  • 29
  • Fatum Iustum Stultorum
Also Ridley, because YES.
If you don't have Knossos, you need it.

“There was a button," Holden said. "I pushed it."
"Jesus Christ. That really is how you go through life, isn't it?”

 
FIRE EMBLEM SWITCH HYPE


 
Watched all but nintendo.  Sony's conference was pretty lame this year have to say, those two instrumentalists made me wish I was back at the ubisoft just dance presentation again.

Death Stranding, I mean looks intriguing story-wise, gameplay wise it looks like a walking simulator.  That's the only gameplay featured, walking.  I'm sure though people are losing their **** over it.  The whole baby thing just seems to be a reincarnation device or something.

Control and Ghost of Tsushima looked pretty cool.  Though the animation in the latter was pretty sharp at times, seemed unnatural like their blending is not working. 

Square Enix was totally forgettable, might as well skipped it.  Tomb Raider is great but I didn't watch that segment for the fear of spoilers.

Ubisoft was pretty fun though, didn't care too much about most of the games.  Assassin's Creed I've never played even though I own a few.

PC Gaming show is getting better year by year in terms of format and presentation, Day9 and the other host were great.  The games- nothing really stood out. Lots of **** I never heard of.  Few cool looking ones though that I'll probably never play.  That robot one might be cool for anyone with VR

- Skull and Bones - Is it just me or is the cinematic trailer getting more incoherent as it goes on? - Game look still good though, but, catch me up here, they cut playable boarding actions?

After reading Patrick O'Brian it's really difficult to take any of that **** seriously.   With captains yelling "full speed ahead"  and sailing ships charging each other it's beyond stupid. Full speed ahead? It's a ****ing sailing ship not a victorian-era battleship.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 10:02:04 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Reality is the finest flesh...
    • Steam
    • Twitter
- Skull and Bones - Is it just me or is the cinematic trailer getting more incoherent as it goes on? - Game look still good though, but, catch me up here, they cut playable boarding actions?

After reading Patrick O'Brian it's really difficult to take any of that **** seriously.   With captains yelling "full speed ahead"  and sailing ships charging each other it's beyond stupid. Full speed ahead? It's a ****ing sailing ship not a victorian-era battleship.

While much of it artistic license for sake of gameplay (i.e. an acutal naval engagement with line-style combat at range to disable, followed by a boarding action and not sinking the enemy ship) as Skull and Bones developed from what was essentially a side activity in Assasin's Creed III and became the main draws of Assasin's Creed IV: Black Flag and Assasin's Creed: Rogue. It was meant to be short side activity you would do, if Assasin's Creed III wasn't as a whole an unattractive mess for anyone but those invested in a bad Groschenroman-version of American Revolution.

And on the technical side, a sailing ship can have remarkable control over its speed despite the wind*, by trimming the sails to the wind, which kinds of sails to set, the tension in the rigging etc etc. Even detail-oriented authors tend to leave that of the cutting room floor because it robs sailing of its romantic appeal and makes for less evocative writing. Again the whole thing is simplified in Skull and Bones to provide an acrade-like gameplay instead of the full simulation; esspecially since it is to indulge in the Hollywood-version of Piracy instead of the real thing (otherwise there would be a lot more kidnapping and ransoming)...

*Side note: the design of portugese and dutch ships, which allowed them to sail against the wind as well as with it, is often cited for the initial success along the established trading routes in the Indian Ocean and Southern Pacific.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 04:48:01 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 
- Skull and Bones - Is it just me or is the cinematic trailer getting more incoherent as it goes on? - Game look still good though, but, catch me up here, they cut playable boarding actions?

After reading Patrick O'Brian it's really difficult to take any of that **** seriously.   With captains yelling "full speed ahead"  and sailing ships charging each other it's beyond stupid. Full speed ahead? It's a ****ing sailing ship not a victorian-era battleship.

While much of it artistic license for sake of gameplay (i.e. an acutal naval engagement with line-style combat at range to disable, followed by a boarding action and not sinking the enemy ship) as Skull and Bones developed from what was essentially a side activity in Assasin's Creed III and became the main draws of Assasin's Creed IV: Black Flag and Assasin's Creed: Rogue. It was meant to be short side activity you would do, if Assasin's Creed III wasn't as a whole an unattractive mess for anyone but those invested in a bad Groschenroman-version of American Revolution.

And on the technical side, a sailing ship can have remarkable control over its speed despite the wind*, by trimming the sails to the wind, which kinds of sails to set, the tension in the rigging etc etc. Even detail-oriented authors tend to leave that of the cutting room floor because it robs sailing of its romantic appeal and makes for less evocative writing. Again the whole thing is simplified in Skull and Bones to provide an acrade-like gameplay instead of the full simulation; esspecially since it is to indulge in the Hollywood-version of Piracy instead of the real thing (otherwise there would be a lot more kidnapping and ransoming)...

*Side note: the design of portugese and dutch ships, which allowed them to sail against the wind as well as with it, is often cited for the initial success along the established trading routes in the Indian Ocean and Southern Pacific.

There's artistic license and then there's just plain nonsense. Yes you can adjust your speed by changing the sails, adding more, reducing some, or even dragging one in the water to slow you down.  Ships are also faster or slower depending on how long they've been last in port to have their bottoms scrapped clean. And ships are of different speeds at different angles to wind, but- have two guys with the same deployment of sails go straight at each other? Nonsense.  Having bow chasers take out a ship? More nonsense.

Also the combat just seems very 1-dimensional, shoot the guy, use your special abilities, board him when his hitpoints are low.  Whereas in the novels, which are noted for their historical accuracy of the feel of the era, they have tactics like deploying your guys into the boats and having them approach the ship through the smoke from the guns.  Or going behind the guy and devastating the ship through the unarmoured rear (raking the ship).  Or shooting a guy, having his mast fall into the water and start draggin him, you catch up and open up while they're desperately trying to cut the mast free. Or fighting around the cape amongst huge waves and having a lucky hit make a ship lose control and instantly breach and below the waves.

Or even just the idea that the treasure was often not gold, but ambergris or other commodities worth a ton of money.  Games are an opportunity for not only entertainment but to educate people.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Reality is the finest flesh...
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Games are an opportunity for not only entertainment but to educate people.

Except this particular game is - despite its setting being historical - not an attempt to model reality but to re-create (!) a fantasy, which has its origin in at least two different media. And both othese points of origin didn't have a very "intimate" relationship with reality:

1) The pirate fiction of the Golden Age of Pirarcy was basicially a form of advertisment for pirate hunters and colonial ventures; As such the accounts were often comissioned to widely overstate the danger of the acutal work to convince either the royals or investors commissioning the captains and ships for more favourable pay or conditions for their contracts. And of course, not mention that many witnesses would distort their accounts for social prestige.
The A General History of Pyrates (the most known source on the Golden Age of Piracy) being a notable exception due to the strong possibilty of Jacobite (=dissident) authorship, which points a different kind of distortion for intent.

2) The modern pirate fiction in film, which sacrificed being nautrically accurate for what was the most feasible (and in many cases, cheapest) possible version to film while also being a compelling and accessible tableau for the viewing audience.

(Note: I cannot comment on Adventure Novels as much, due to the lack of insight into genre as a whole)


That being said, Skull and Bones has not just the right to be that but it might also be compelled by its nature as a game to be so.

You don't have to follow me on my views on realism as stylistic choice (tl;dr: technically impressive yet, by comparison, often low on content ), accuracy as part of artistic intent (tl;dr: the lowest form, easily overuled by other considerations), or the question if modern art works can still be complete in themselves (tl;dr: they cannot), but please hear me out on this one.

As a game it has to make its systems at least partially understandble to the player to enable an act of Play; As the game takes player input, the player has at least minimal knowledge regarding what that input is to enable an agency at Play.

One way to confer that knowledge is to reference previously known information, e.g. the way a naval combat scene in a pirate movie plays out. For this to work, of course you have to reference a piece of information that is common knowledge to be most effective, the more obscure the piece of knowledge is the less effective this strategy will be (unless of course, you laser-focus your audience). Basically, you skip a technically explaination with "you have seen this before, so you know how it goes".

The opposite is of course an option, giving the player an intricate rule book and let them run the show. However in that chase, unlike in the case state above, you are asking the player to make a time investment up front to engage with the rulebook, at least in part, before any gameplay makes sense.

When in a scenario that you also have to make compelling argument for spending time with your game instead of another one, the strategy that make the player invest themselves and their time more gradually probably wins out.


EDIT:

Afterthough: You can, of course, also subvert expectations which you have build up by the reference to known information; which is a point I previously left out.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:29:31 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

  

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I don't think anyone on a board for a game where spaceships use aeroplane physics gets to complain too much about realism. :p If the game is fun, that's what counts.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 
As a game it has to make its systems at least partially understandble to the player to enable an act of Play; As the game takes player input, the player has at least minimal knowledge regarding what that input is to enable an agency at Play.

Having wind play no apparent factor in a game about sailing ships is just stupid, fantasy references aside.  The fact that sailing ships sail before the wind is not a complex idea, it's one that should be readily apparent for any person whose never thought of it before.   Whether the game wants to ape pirates of the Carribean or not, having wind play a factor even in an arcade-y way can make the game better by giving it more depth and rewarding players who have skill in manoeuvring.

I don't think anyone on a board for a game where spaceships use aeroplane physics gets to complain too much about realism. :p If the game is fun, that's what counts.

Freespace doesn't use airplane physics because airplanes deal with lift and gravity.  Freespace uses "movie physics" (Star Wars).

The difference between Freespace and Skull & Bones is that Freespace is not set in a historical era with historical ships (non-Pirate), uniforms, countries, locales.  Freespace can do what it wants, while a game which places itself in history comes with certain expectations.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 05:55:45 am by Akalabeth Angel »

 
Whether the game wants to ape pirates of the Carribean or not, having wind play a factor even in an arcade-y way can make the game better by giving it more depth and rewarding players who have skill in manoeuvring.
Yeah, Sid Meier's Pirates wasn't exactly a realistic sim or a AAA game, but they still managed it alright nearly 2 decades ago. While I'm not surprised in any way that they didn't include wind management in their gameplay, a basic arcade-y implementation would have absolutely been within their reach.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Freespace doesn't use airplane physics because airplanes deal with lift and gravity.  Freespace uses "movie physics" (Star Wars).

The difference between Freespace and Skull & Bones is that Freespace is not set in a historical era with historical ships (non-Pirate), uniforms, countries, locales.  Freespace can do what it wants, while a game which places itself in history comes with certain expectations.

Imma let you finish but this is the worst possible argument you could ever make.

You'd be better off just sayin you'd love for this to be incorporated and that the game feels a lot weaker and poor for the lack of it. That's fine.


But to complain that pirates must conform to REALISMtm while FreeSpace can do whatevah because "history comes with certain expectations" is bull****. Space has always come with expectations for me because I happened to be a ****ing physics geek when I was a young boy. The fact that you are not bothered at all by "movie space physics" while being at pirates tells me only things about yourself and not the products themselves.

I was always bothered by freespace physics, but I will take the cognitive dissonance and ignore it. Just like you'll have to in this pirates stuff, if you so choose to play the game.

 

Offline 0rph3u5

  • 211
  • Reality is the finest flesh...
    • Steam
    • Twitter
As a game it has to make its systems at least partially understandble to the player to enable an act of Play; As the game takes player input, the player has at least minimal knowledge regarding what that input is to enable an agency at Play.

Having wind play no apparent factor in a game about sailing ships is just stupid, fantasy references aside.  The fact that sailing ships sail before the wind is not a complex idea, it's one that should be readily apparent for any person whose never thought of it before.   Whether the game wants to ape pirates of the Carribean or not, having wind play a factor even in an arcade-y way can make the game better by giving it more depth and rewarding players who have skill in manoeuvring.

Since you implied that you have no prior knowledge with AC-games from which Skull and Bones is spun-off, I would like to direct you attention to the UI-element that is the lower right corner of the screen in the gameplay footage. In the AC games there is an UI element in the exact same position that acts as a wind gauge and mechanically, sailing with the wind confered boni with regards to speed and turning rate.
Now the visual language of that UI element has been changed siginificantly to the point that I can't read it, but assuming that is only an updated UI-element, because the AC UI design would stick out terribly, we have a hint to assume that the mechanics are still there.

EDIT: I just saw gameplay footage that had the tutorial pop-ups in it, and the UI element in the lower right is indeed a navigational aid, including a wind gauge. The tutorial pop-ups also mention that the wind affects speed.
The visual language of the UI element is based on what the game calls "wind profile", a ship specific element you can see when the ship select screen is featured in the footage.



I don't think anyone on a board for a game where spaceships use aeroplane physics gets to complain too much about realism. :p If the game is fun, that's what counts.

Don't you dare shut down this discussion! - We haven't even gotten to the part on how a realistic-style supports and promigates the existing marginalsation of historically marginalised segments of the population!

 ;)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 03:20:16 pm by 0rph3u5 »
"When you work with water, you have to know and respect it. When you labour to subdue it, you have to understand that one day it may rise up and turn all your labours into nothing. For what is water, which seeks to make all things level, which has no taste or colour of its own, but a liquid form of Nothing?" - Graham Swift, Waterland

"...because they are not Dragons."

 

Offline The E

  • He's Ebeneezer Goode
  • Global Moderator
  • 213
  • Nothing personal, just tech support.
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
All that realism in sailships talk is important, but make way for HYPE

**** every cause that ends in murder and children crying. ― Iain Banks
Join the fun at the HLP IRC channel. Get the latest spam and gossip as long as it's fresh!

 
Freespace doesn't use airplane physics because airplanes deal with lift and gravity.  Freespace uses "movie physics" (Star Wars).

The difference between Freespace and Skull & Bones is that Freespace is not set in a historical era with historical ships (non-Pirate), uniforms, countries, locales.  Freespace can do what it wants, while a game which places itself in history comes with certain expectations.

Imma let you finish but this is the worst possible argument you could ever make.

You'd be better off just sayin you'd love for this to be incorporated and that the game feels a lot weaker and poor for the lack of it. That's fine.

But to complain that pirates must conform to REALISMtm while FreeSpace can do whatevah because "history comes with certain expectations" is bull****. Space has always come with expectations for me because I happened to be a ****ing physics geek when I was a young boy. The fact that you are not bothered at all by "movie space physics" while being at pirates tells me only things about yourself and not the products themselves.

I was always bothered by freespace physics, but I will take the cognitive dissonance and ignore it. Just like you'll have to in this pirates stuff, if you so choose to play the game.

You're in the minority because most people don't give a toss about sci-fi physics as demonstrated by the fact that the two largest franchises, Star Wars and Star Trek have next to no physics in them.  But movies or games set in the WW2 era come with a certain set of expectations that is generally conformed to for both technology, how it operates, composition of the armies (see Battlefield V controversy), etcetera

There has in recent years been a greater emphasis on realism in science fiction, but it hasn't detracted from the unrealistic franchises, nor have they reached the same level of popularity.

EDIT: I just saw gameplay footage that had the tutorial pop-ups in it, and the UI element in the lower right is indeed a navigational aid, including a wind gauge. The tutorial pop-ups also mention that the wind affects speed.
The visual language of the UI element is based on what the game calls "wind profile", a ship specific element you can see when the ship select screen is featured in the footage.

Yes this video says that wind is a factor and that it behaves as one might expect to, at least on a basic level, so maybe the game will be cool after all (at the 6:15 minute mark)

https://youtu.be/HgBlDixCHKQ?t=6m15s

« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 05:17:17 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
...and why would I give a toss about what the "majority" cares? I care about my experience, not yours.

My point was precisely that what constitutes a cognitive dissonant experience is in the eyes of the beholder, and not this objective statement that you tried to make.

Again, make the case that you'd love for them to incorporate this because it would be really cool and would add to your experience. But trying to turn this into a "this genre can have cognitive dissonant elements and that one can't because HISTORICAL REALISM" is so cognitive dissonant in itself that we enter inception levels of gNAaRRH.

It also reminds me of the Battlefield debacle and the misoginerd horde's resentment at watching a woman in the middle of a battlefield COZ IT BREAKS MAH REALIST EXPERIENCE.

 
...and why would I give a toss about what the "majority" cares? I care about my experience, not yours.

Because it's central to the discussion.

It also reminds me of the Battlefield debacle and the misoginerd horde's resentment at watching a woman in the middle of a battlefield COZ IT BREAKS MAH REALIST EXPERIENCE.

So you're comparing me to misogynists now?

Here's another argument for you, one you'll understand.

Adding wind to a sailing game makes the experience more interesting because it can confer advantages or disadvantages for players based on their skill or position.

Adding newtonian physics to a starship combat game makes the experience more BORING, because real space physics and space environments are BORING.  In fact a realistic space game would be so boring that you'd never play it, because a fully realistic game would have AI controlled ships not ships with living pilots.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2018, 05:40:35 pm by Akalabeth Angel »

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
I was making an analogy, not an indictment on your thoughts about women, for crying out loud, I'm not throwing you onto that bunch at all.

See those two paragraphs at the bottom that you wrote? That's EXACTLY how I said you should argue. So, I guess, thank you for finally catching up to what I said?

Have a nice weekend!