[General Battuta]

So all the Shivan theories are all nonsense?

They're all equally non-canon and thus all equally not worth giving a **** about. You're the one who cited veteran comments on the FreeSpace wiki as something other than fanwank, so apparently you don't understand that the theories we've been generating for the past ten+ years were all written by people like me.

Speaking as someone who's been around since the VBB days, I've seen it all.

In other words, you joined this thread in a hope to point out that we're all stupid, senseless debaters?

I rephrased that to be a lot more diplomatic. But no, actually, I think almost everyone in this thread has been remarkably sensible, and careful to base their arguments on hard figures carefully sourced and cited, rather than imaginary scenarios.

You obviously have some learning to do before you get there.

And I still don't give a **** about who would win in a fight, and I don't know why you're coming back to it.

You've already conceded all the points that I entered this thread to correct. Unless you have some further questions on the topic of whether Flood can infect Shivans or how easy it'd be to board a Sathanas, or eighty Sathanases all at the same instant, I think I'm done here.

I will continue linking this thread on IRC for everyone's reading pleasure. 

And for future reference, seriously, if you're going to get into a crossover debate, you need to know both sides, or you just have zero credibility.

I know both universes pretty well, so I think I am well qualified to comment. NERD ALPHA

[Marcov]

I rephrased that to be a lot more diplomatic. But no, actually, I think almost everyone in this thread has been remarkably sensible, and careful to base their arguments on hard figures carefully sourced and cited, rather than imaginary scenarios.

Seriously, do you want to bring up the whole "Common sense is also worth giving a crap about". "No it isn't" argument?

You obviously have some learning to do before you get there.

Get out where?

And I still don't give a **** about who would win in a fight, and I don't know why you're coming back to it.

I'm not currently coming back to it. Previously, I said that it was funny that you swooped in and started calling me "pointless". Plus, previously I said that it was quite confusing, you saying the Flood would win, but also saying that none can win. Apparently you did some pretty job making me understand your point, so currently I accept it.

You've already conceded all the points that I entered this thread to correct. Unless you have some further questions on the topic of whether Flood can infect Shivans or how easy it'd be to board a Sathanas, or eighty Sathanases all at the same instant, I think I'm done here.

However, I still think that the Shivans can win with their canonical force. They could, perhaps, slowly decimate the Flood by generating supernovas.

I will continue linking this thread on IRC for everyone's reading pleasure.  

Why? So everyone can laugh and say "look at this guy, he's being senseless"?

To the contrary. I refuse to think that I am sensless.

[General Battuta]

Seriously, do you want to bring up the whole "Common sense is also worth giving a crap about". "No it isn't" argument?

If it was common sense, why haven't the brightest minds in the FS community been able to agree on a single point for the past ten years?

Like I said, I've been around since the VBB. I've seen it all. The only 'common sense' is 'you can use whatever theory fits with canon and works for your campaign.'

However, I still think that the Shivans can win with their canonical force. They could, perhaps, slowly decimate the Flood by generating supernovas.

See, this is why knowing and citing hard canonical figures will always trump poor knowledge of canon.

Ask yourself this.

How long did it take the Shivans to drive Capella supernova?

Spoiler:

Days. "Over 80 Shivan Juggernauts are now in position around the Capella sun. Science vessels monitoring their activity have detected an anomalous subspace field rippling from the Juggernaut fleet. Though we can barely detect the field with our instruments, its intensity has been increasing slowly over the past seventy-two hours."

How long was the battle at the Maginot sphere?

Spoiler:

Less than five hours.

Like you said, we're restricting ourselves to canonical forces.

If all 4 million Flood warships from that battle attacked all 80 Sathanas juggernaughts just as they began the supernova process...and the Flood were able to infect 5500 Forerunner dreadnoughts in the span of the battle, each one twice as long as a Sathanas, with better maneuverability, more powerful weapons, Slipspace rift weapons, and shields...

How the hell are eighty Sathanas going to last one minute?

Never mind the fact that the Flood vessels can actually outpace the supernova's blast and just fly away?

What you should be asking is not 'how can the Shivans beat the Flood with these forces' - they can't - but 'how intelligent are the Shivans as a species compared to the Gravemind?'

Now that's an interesting question. And one I don't have an answer to.

[Marcov]

No. The Shivans wouldn't attack the Flood directly. They would lure them into the system by day 3 (since it took ~3 days to supernova), jump out, and the Flood would be trapped (unless they could escape, that is).

OK. Now I'm outta here

[General Battuta]

No. The Shivans wouldn't attack the Flood directly. They would lure them into the system by day 3 (since it took ~3 days to supernova), jump out, and the Flood would be trapped (unless they could escape, that is).

OK. Now I'm outta here

Why would the Flood wait?

Why would the Flood not detect that the star was about to go supernova, given that they have a collective intelligence more powerful than the Forerunner's best AIs (which could surely detect that)?

Even if they were lured in, given that their slipspace drives can outpace the supernova's blast, why wouldn't they simply fly away again?

Whacking one side or the other with stupid sticks is not the way to create an interesting matchup.

There's really no meaningful way to run this crossover without setting ground rules about how Slipspace and subspace interact.

[Jeff Vader]

Imma just quickly chime in here, even though it might be too late already.

Given the full story, there is no way to tell who would win in a crossover fight. This is a much more complicated, nuanced position than the binary 'Halo side vs. FreeSpace side' you want to assume. I hope it's not too much for you to handle.

Actually, my take would be that this would be incorrect. You CAN sort out who would actually win, based on non-canon theories.

The problem with non-canon theories is that, while at first they might include "common sense", they can quickly devolve into meaningless garbage. Many things are not known and are not explained in canon material, so people creating non-canon theories can and even must make **** up. And with the lack of canon information to back up the claims, it will soon end up into "my theory is better than yours because I think it has common sense". Hell, I could present a theory, where Chuck Norris appears, takes out the Shivans, takes out the Flood, takes out every single scifi universe and punches everything that remained after the onslaught. And I could say my theory pwns because it is supported by facts.

I was also gonna say something about that "pwn dem wit supernovas" thing but I gotta go and poo.

[Marcov]

Usually debates go on forever and I'm getting quite bored, so at the moment I think I'll dismiss this (which I already said earlier).

[Aardwolf]

Cool beans.

[Dilmah G]

Usually debates go on forever and I'm getting quite bored, so at the moment I think I'll dismiss this (which I already said earlier).

Finally.

Let's hope in future for the good of both parties that this happens sooner.

[Marcov]

Usually debates go on forever and I'm getting quite bored, so at the moment I think I'll dismiss this (which I already said earlier).

Finally.

Let's hope in future for the good of both parties that this happens sooner.

Big debates like debates between entire SciFi universes can get extremely complicated, long, and even sometimes users beat around the bush, give fake info etc.

If you want a good, accurate debate it will usually be ship vs. ship/fleet vs. fleet debates. The simpler it gets, it also gets more orderly and sensible.

[General Battuta]

Usually debates go on forever and I'm getting quite bored, so at the moment I think I'll dismiss this (which I already said earlier).

Finally.

Let's hope in future for the good of both parties that this happens sooner.

Big debates like debates between entire SciFi universes can get extremely complicated, long, and even sometimes users beat around the bush, give fake info etc.

If you want a good, accurate debate it will usually be ship vs. ship/fleet vs. fleet debates. The simpler it gets, it also gets more orderly and sensible.

Indeed. Ironic that you didn't seem interested in those kinds of debates!

[Snail]

on spacebattles.com i have 150,000 posts!


...not really

[Dr. Pwnguin]

I think, considering the Forerunner tended to glass planets on a daily basis for anti-flood ops, that they'd have at least a large number of Lucifer-Class vessels or stronger at the ready.

Then, let's not forget the final battle of the Forerunner-Flood war (Battle of the Maginot Sphere) had 11000 Forerunner ships fighting a force of 4.8M flood vessels and winning.

So yeah, Forerunner or Flood vs. Shivans would be a flood or Forerunner victory. And if the Flood detected a supernova they would just jump in random trajectories anyway. Same for Forerunner.


One other thing. The Forerunner also tried detonating Star-Systems to combat the flood and that didn't work, so yeah, Shivans are screwed.

But for capturing Shivan Ships we'd need to know how much carbon they're made of, as I think it was mentioned in one fo the Halo 3 terminals that the flood thrive on intelligent life that have a certain percentage of carbon in their makeup.

[Snail]

WE DON'T KNOW THE TRUE EXTENT OF THE SHIVANS POWAAAAAR

[Marcov]

This whole "11,000 Forerunner vs. Flood war" brings to the question: "How big was the Ancients' fleet"?

Plus, how big is one of those Forerunner ships? Also remember that the GTVA had 6,000 Bakhas, so that'd probably put their bomber count to several tens of thousands, or possibly even around a hundred thousand.

So the Forerunner fleet isn't that incredibly larger than FreeSpace's scale.

Still, a supernova could own 4.8 Million ships if in one system

The supernova calcs are really one of the few saving graces of FS against several worldwide popular Sci-Fic series. Also, another reason why Halo would have an incredibly large amount of ships and a huge-scaled war is that it is far more successful than the FreeSpace series of games. Plus, the fact that it was released rather lately would mean the game's engine would support larger, more destructive battles than FS ones.

[The E]

While the Forerunner fleet may not have been that large in absolute terms, the fact that they could hold off that large a fleet should tell you a little something about their durability and combat capability.

Still, a supernova could own 4.8 Million ships if in one system

Still not reading posts, I see. Yes, a Supernova could destroy everything. However, if you have FTL travel capability, however slow it may be, you can outrun it with ease.

The supernova calcs are really one of the few saving graces of FS against several worldwide popular Sci-Fic series. Also, another reason why Halo would have an incredibly large amount of ships and a huge-scaled war is that it is far more successful than the FreeSpace series of games. Plus, the fact that it was released rather lately would mean the game's engine would support larger, more destructive battles than FS ones.

Nonsensical statement is nonsensical. The big fleet battles of the Halo verse have so far only been mentioned in novels and backstory. As such, game engine limitations have nothing to do with this.

[Marcov]

Still not reading posts, I see. Yes, a Supernova could destroy everything. However, if you have FTL travel capability, however slow it may be, you can outrun it with ease.

Which means that Shivans win in that particular battle, which ultimately leads to the conclusion that Shivans would win in the debate.

Nonsensical statement is nonsensical. The big fleet battles of the Halo verse have so far only been mentioned in novels and backstory. As such, game engine limitations have nothing to do with this.

However, what if FS got as successful as Halo? Wouldn't they have books and all? Books, in which some could be written by some die-hard FS fan and create a story which revealed the motives of the Shivans, and that they had 500 thousand million gazillion ships actually? You were right about the engine thing, but definitely not the popularity factor.

[Dilmah G]

*sigh*

[General Battuta]

This thread is fueled by idiocy.

It should remain a playground for children and the mentally delayed.

[Dilmah G]

No ****. I could've sworn I tried to end this a few pages ago.  

-> Wouldn't taking part in the discussion in such a way make you mentally delayed child?  I kid, I kid.