Hard Light Productions Forums
Archived Boards => The Archive => MindGames => Topic started by: Geezer on January 28, 2003, 06:09:50 pm
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The Starborn FAQ (http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Starborn FAQ.html) page is up.
If you've got questions or comments, this is the place :cool:
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that's some cool philosophical Scifi **** there man.:yes: :yes:
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Oh, I have the following question.
Why didn't the starborn stop the collapsing of the Gamma Draconis - Capella jump node. They did want it to remain open, didn't trhey
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The shivans have other ways into GTVA space and the Starborn were too surprised by the shivans blowing up Capella to do anything much about the GD-Capella node
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All true :)
There's also this:
The collapse of a jumpnode is a minor inconvenience to the Starborn. It merely means that a Starborn has to use a little more energy to get to (or from) subspace. Any jumpnode was originally just a weak spot in the energy ‘wall’ between subspace and normal space. It became what we recognize as a jumpnode by the Starborn using it as the easiest path in their travels. The Starborn will simply find another nearby weak spot and start to use it. After thousands of passages, the new spot may show up on the Shivan Groupmind’s sensors as a jumpnode. After hundreds of thousands of passages, GTVA sensors will also register it.
As far as the Starborn ‘preventing’ anything, keep in mind that the Starborn have very little physical presence in the universe. They are best thought of as energy beings. While their ability to manipulate energy is vast, their ability to manipulate solid matter is almost non-existent. The best they’ve been able to do with solid matter is to shift a few molecules at a time. (The molecules they shift are usually in the genes of the races that they’re changing for the Great Game.) The only way they could prevent something physical from happening is through the use of their ‘game pieces’ – those individual members of Coldlife races that can hear Starborn thoughts and act on their suggestions.
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Originally posted by Stunaep
that's some cool philosophical Scifi **** there man.:yes: :yes:
This is going to be a sweet mod :nod:
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
This is going to be a sweet mod :nod:
And it's 40% done (according to their progress meter). YES!
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It's very impressive... It's one of those few mods for any game that i've seen in which the story grabs the attention of the player and explains everything clearly... Sounding awesome...
Oh, where does the Knossos come in? Do the starborn mind?
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The knossos would "spread the bush" so to speak from what they say, at least that's how I take it.
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KT's got it right. Remember that the jumpnodes are no more than a convenience to the Starborn. It probably wouldn't matter one way or another to them if they encountered an artificial one.
To pound the 'Walking in the Woods' metaphor to death, the traveler wouldn't care very much if he noticed that the neighborhood dogs had made their own small hole in the bushes. Of course, that opinion would change if he kept stepping in piles of yesterday's dog food. But that's what the Shivan Dog Extermination Team is for...:wink:
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woa.. it's all falling into place and making sense.. :D
*Is really gonna like MOD*
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Anymore updates guys?
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Anymore updates guys?
Not really big ones. We have almost all cutscenes finished (7-8 mins), the weapons are pretty much done (they are really cool :nod: ) and all we are now lacking is missions and a few models. 6 or 7 missions are in beta-stage.
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So there may be a release 1 soon if progress continues as is?
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We are planning a demo release first which will set the scene for the main MG campaign.
The demo will be followed by the main campaign release. At the moment we have no plans for MG release 2 although in the style of FS1 & FS2 we'll be leaving plenty of room for a possible follow on.
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I look forward to it.
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Can the Starborn sire/create new races or evolve them to a higher level?
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If they took long enough about it they probably could. I doubt they'd bother though unless they thought they could do it without making them a threat and only if the new race would make the great game more interesting.
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I would think that the SB have many projects going on at the same time - in various degrees of completion. When (and if) the SB figure out that the Shivan Groupmind is intentionally trying to kill them, things would definitely change. I'd expect that the SB would destroy any Groupmind ship that they come across, while at the same time putting a moratorium on any other race's development. Once the Groupmind was gone, the SB would have to figure out what to do about replacing it. Once the replacement was ready, the SB would again return to the development of other races.
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Are the Starborn the only "hot" race, and if so why?
...and also I'd like to register my objection to the use of a horrible plot device. I want enemies I can at least fight. Not necessarily win, but at least fight. (Like say, the Shivans.)
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The Starborn are an enemy in the same way that forces of nature are an enemy.
Once you see the game running you'll see why we couldn't just make them another enemy who you can jump into your fighter and blow up.
The starborn have basically set the destruction of mankind in Sol as their goal for this round of the Great Game. Prevent that and you've beaten them. Of course if you want the Starborn to really lose you could try rolling over and letting the Shivans have a go at them as they're the only race who've ever managed to fight with the Starborn. Hell, they're the only race even aware of the Starborns existance :D
One other thing. The Starborn aren't really a plot device. MindGames is designed that the entire campaign would work if we never mentioned the Starborn. A lot of things would be mysteries in the same way as Bosch's actions in the main campaign were though. The whole Starborn thing functions as another level that explains a lot of the bigger picture.
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*pokes* So, you still didn't tell me about the Starborn being the only "hot" race or not.
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I'm leaving that one up to Geezer to explain as he tned to do that sort of stuff better than I do :D
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How do you mean 'hot' race?
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As in full of sexy ladies ;)
Seriously though, the Starborn refer to Humans, Shivans and Vasudans as coldlife because they lived on cold balls of rock rather than nice warm stars :D
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There's at least one other Hotlife species, but they're not intelligent - or not by the Starborn's definitions, anyway. A small lifeform evolved in a 'cool' red giant star, comparable in some ways to a Terran virus. Like the SB, the 'Hotbugs' can be described as having both crystalline and holographic qualities. But the Hotbug's timescale is very different. A Hotbug will go from 'seed' to dissolution in a few years. While in its growth phase, the Hotbug expands very rapidly, incorporating any passing atomic particle that fits its matrix. When a SB comes in contact a growing Hotbug, the 'Bug starts to capture parts of the SB. Initially, the captured parts are such a small part of the SB that the theft isn't noticed. By the time a Hotbug is at the end of its lifecycle, the SB can have a small but noticeable chunk removed. The net effect on the SB (due to their holographic nature) is a general but slight lessening of its memory and powers of mind. Fortunately for the SB, the 'Bugs are most comfortable in 'cool' red stars and the SB themselves prefer hotter stars – like Sol or Capella – so there's not much contact between the two species. Unfortunately for the SB, their initial unknowing contact allowed the 'Bugs to hitch rides to many other stars before the SB realized what they were and their danger. Even now, a 'Bug seed can ride unnoticed with a SB, waiting for the proper conditions to grow.
And, no, you're not going to see a Hotbug piloting a fighter in MG. :D
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So, will we see a shivan/hotbug alliance? (j/k lol)
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I don't think the Shivans know about the hotbugs yet. If they do find out about they they will almost certainly try to use them against the Starborn.
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How are we going to attack the Starborn?
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Wait, does it mean that when we'll meet Shivans next time they won't try to exterminate us or they are still an agressive species ( something like: if you've created to kill'n destroy, you simply don't stop killing after you leave your creator) ??
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@kietotheworld: The simple answer is that we're not. Humanity doesn't know that the SB exist, much less that they're behind a lot of human history or the Shivan threat.
@mr.WHO: The Shivan Groupmind (there's only one intelligence with a lot of bodies) was designed by the SB to eliminate anyone it finds in subspace - it never occurred to the SB that the Groupmind would be able to sense the SB themselves. The Groupmind did discover that the SB exist but it has no idea that the SB were responsible for its own creation. As far as the Groupmind is concerned, the SB are just another species to be eliminated from subspace. As for a GTVA/Shivan alliance against the SB, the Groupmind doesn't think like that. There is no 'we', only 'I'. The Groupmind is perfectly willing to pretend to ally in order to gain military intelligence but in the end, there is only 'I'. Every intruder in subspace will be eliminated, sooner or later.
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So in other words Shivan are (or should I say is?) perfect guardian to SB, master piece from what they forgot one thing out and its not milk ;)
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Say Shivans are the perfect guardians of the Starborn...
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Well like Geezer said Shivan is Groupmind, so I think that entitles call as Shivan not Shivans, they share one mind and ideal, that I think makes them not inviduals, but a invidual, very terrifying one. One thing I say, something that shares one conciousness even if all of them are different can be quite strong. Just think it, all of groupmind shares all what they see, hear and feel, thats perfect symphony for war, no communications that can be interupted, they can strike anywhere and anywhen they want, becuse even if their scouts gets killed they know exactly whats happening where and when. Amazing that Terran and Vasudans were able to stop them from doing their purpose of universum, especially since StarBorns who are vastly more evolved and got caught pants down in Capella :p
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"Shiva" perhaps?
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Will the GTVA/player even know about the StarBorn?
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Originally posted by kietotheworld
Will the GTVA/player even know about the StarBorn?
If he's paying attention :cool:
The SB take an active role in MG thru their "game pieces" or avatars. The player should - with very little effort - know what part of the story has come from the SB's interference. Alpha 1 won't have a clue.
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*blows the dust off this topic* I know it's been a while since this topic was posted in, but who knows. Maybe you guys will like the extra activity here. If not, I apologize.
I was reading through the Starborn FAQ on your site again, and I had a thought. If Bosch was a Sensitive, manipulated by the Starborn to give information to the Shivans, then that might explain why GTVA Command let him escape in the early missions of the main FS2 campaign. One of the higher ups, also a Sensitive, must have given the order to let him escape. Would that be true?
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The argument I tend to go with is that Bosch was allowed to escape because GTVI were interested in capturing ETAK for themselves.
Now whether this is the real explaination or just one of the justifications given by whoever ordered removing the blockade is another question :D
It is quite possible that the idea of letting Bosch escape in order to secure ETAK was a notion put in the head of a GTVA commander by one of the Starborn. It's the sort of thing they would come up with.
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*coughs in the cloud of dust*
A Sensitive without a leadership position is far less useful to the Starborn than a Sensitive with many followers. So, part of the the genetic makeup of an upper-level Sensitive is the combination of traits that we call 'charisma'. Even the totally mind deaf will be attracted to a charismatic leader. For lesser Sensitives, with the SB whispering in the backs of their minds, the attraction can reach fanatism. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the commander who allowed the escape was influenced by a gene-deep conviction that Bosch was correct in his actions.
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If the Shivan groupmind is starting to exterminate SB, what will the SB do in response? Have they even noticed the incident at Capella happened?
This mod is sounding really interesting btw, i look foward to seeing it.
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The SB certainly noticed Capella but the idea that the Groupmind is attacking them is totally alien to their thinking. Sort of like a human wondering if the termites in his house are actively trying to crush him with falling beams. That said, if the SB realize what's going on, they shouldn't have much trouble dealing with the Groupmind. Remember that the SB are masters of energy flows so they could easily "turn off" the brains of individual GM bodies or cause GM ships to explode by tampering with the drives. It would be tedious, but they could do it.
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Hmm...that said, would the SB actually notice the GTVA's attempt at forcefully closing the subspace corridor from Vega to Capella? Wouldn't that send off a signal to them as well? Not to mention the fact that the Groupmind didn't seem to care about this, and instead only directed their attention at them?
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The SB are patient - at least by our standards. They've genetically programmed the Groupmind to take care of this kind of thing, so they'd assume that this would all come under the GM's mandate. Since the GM was already engaged with the GTVA, the SB would certainly wait until the GM cleaned up the mess. If, however, the GTVA really started making a nuisance of itself, I don't suppose the SB would have any problems with urging the GM to greater efforts - the GM is a Sensitive, after all.
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This campaign is sounding stranger and stranger. It's almost got a Final Fantasy: Spirits Within feel to it now. Some of these ideas certainly have potential though and I'm very interested in seeing how this pans out.
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Mystery = Good
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One thing I say, something that shares one conciousness even if all of them are different can be quite strong. Just think it, all of groupmind shares all what they see, hear and feel, thats perfect symphony for war, no communications that can be interupted, they can strike anywhere and anywhen they want, becuse even if their scouts gets killed they know exactly whats happening where and when.
point of interest: this group minded-ness is instantaneous? what one shivan node/shell/body experiences on one side of the galaxy is already known to all nodes even on the other side or is there propagation of sorts? travel time could be used to have a group of nodes in a system act as one with an active (though not instantaneous) link to other nodes. the more nodes in-system the smarter the local set becomes. instant communication directly implies that the ability to tranverse that distance instantaneously is also possible... so subspace seems kind of limited.
data propagation times could also explain why it's possible to defeat shivan nodes at all since it as a whole would be instantly aware of everything... which does not seem to be the case.
Amazing that Terran and Vasudans were able to stop them from doing their purpose of universum, especially since StarBorns who are vastly more evolved and got caught pants down in Capella :p
another point of interest: shiva is essentially fighting a war on 2 fronts. the overt war with other cold-life would, as far as i can tell from the mindgame premise, be akin to us eating breakfast. it's just part of their existence and not overly important to them. if they miss breakfast at home they can pick something up at the local store etc... the war with the starborn on the other hand is vastly more complicated as no direct action can be taken least shiva's hand be tipped. to that end in the original FS campaign the shiva should have known perfectly well that a) shields don't work in subspace and b) the terran forces were hot on the lucifer's trail. it could be theorized that the shiva were aware that starborn would be watching this battle intently from subspace and in sol system so they allowed the pre-GTVA forces to cause the lucifer's destruction, blowing the jump node all in an experiment to see if it would damage the nearby starborn in the resulting shockwave.
and on that note:
What's up with the Starborn and jumpnodes?
Imagine a stand of old-growth forest. Under the trees, very little light reaches the ground, so there is almost no underbrush. At the edges of the forest, where sunlight does reach the ground, there is a heavy growth of bushes and shrubs that acts as a barrier to the woods. If a traveler wanted to cross the forest, he’d first have to force his way through these bushes, so he’d search for a nearby thin spot. Once through the bushes it would be a fairly easy walk through the trees. At the far side of the forest, he’d again look for a thin spot in the bushes and force his way out. If he kept using the same route, the bushes would eventually stop re-growing, leaving a permanent hole in the barrier. There would also be a noticeable path in the forest.
i don't think this analogy quite fits the FS universe in that during the few missions that take place in subspace you are in what seems to be a rather well defined corridor leading distinctly from point A to point B. so your forest would need some internal underbrush to be worn out of the way by repeated travel forming the trail (corridor) effect we see in subspace. the jumpnodes themselves would remain as the border brush that has grown thick due to the extra sunlight.
this doesn't quite explain the difference between intra- (within a single) and inter- (between separate) system jump drive setup other than a plot device to save the player from having to dock with some mothership all the time. i suppose that would be a quirk in that the distances intra-system are so small that you can pop out and in again so fast that you really barely touch true subspace before you're already there. normal fighter subspace engines wouldn't be powerful enough to actually break the barrier but getting close enough allowes some travel.
/shrugs
further thoughts: if a human became aware of the game could they secretly contact the shiva or are the shiva so blinded by their programmed blood-lust that they wouldn't accept help? or prehaps they'd be too afraid that the terran would let slip to a sensitive and the starborn would learn of the shiva's duplicity. terrans are, after all, all individuals and the actions of one node rarely syncronizes with the actions of the others.
opens the possibility for the shiva to contemplate genetic de-programming as a condition of the other coldlife joining into some short-lived alliance (shiva's part being "here's some info and we'll lay off killing you for a time") to stand up and say "sorry but we're not going to play anymore..."
or is it essentially impossible for the undeveloped terrans to act so without the starborn taking notice?
an out of the way, star-less void, far from any starborn-frequented subspace lanes would be a great place to find massive shiva structures conducting starborn-war experiments.
first post by the way...
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Interesting comments. 8)
Don’t think of the Groupmind as a bunch of mind-melded Vulcans, tho. The GM is more like a single, not overly-bright, individual. The GM’s bodies and technology can be compared to a human’s evolving antibodies. When a new type threat is encountered, the GM ‘evolves’ new ways of attacking, mostly by mining its vast store of acquired enemy data, mostly below what we would consider the level of consciousness. Of course, the GM is armed with a vast repertoire of ‘instincts’ that let it’s bodies appear to act as individuals – even to the point of making individual contact with aliens like Bosch.
The GM is definitely limited in size, covering a few thousand light years or so, and while communication may be near-instantaneous, it still takes real time to maneuver. And, again, most of what the GM does is what we would consider instinctual, below the level of consciousness. Occasionally, an enemy is encountered that is so different from its experience that it requires what we would think of as ‘thought’. The SB are such an enemy, special only in that they require a new type of weapon to destroy.
The relatively small size of the GM is also the reason for its periodic sweeps of the galaxy – it’s constantly on the move looking for intruders, like a single Doberman guarding a junkyard.
As far as the Lucy and the subsequent collapse of the node, I’ve got no problem thinking of it as a SB ploy to set up an interesting game board. As I’ve said, the GM is a Sensitive and as receptive to suggestion as any other. ;7
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i was thinking more along the lines of a ploy by shiva to test a new way of hurting SBs like the capella nova.
the SBs may have directed shiva in that direction to knock earth back a few generations but since shiva is aware that it's are being dragged around like a dog on a leash it could have used the opportunity to scratch at the post that was holding up the roof underwhich the SBs were sitting around with some candy and popcorn enjoying the show... or maybe beernuts...
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...but since shiva is aware that it's are being dragged around like a dog on a leash...
The Groupmind is not aware of its true relationship to the SB. To the GM, the SB are just another intruder in subspace - one that, for reasons unknown, seems to meddle in the GM's business on occasion and one that requires special weapons - but just another intruder nonetheless.
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Oh yeah. almost forgot again:
Paegus:
:welcome:
(You can read the normal warnings at http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39765.0.html)
:D
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hmm guess i was giving the GM the benefit of the doubt regarding its intelligence since it seem to know that its evolution seemed hurried and all... prehaps they're just not that good at the math.
and hi.. :headz:
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It's worth remembering that any war between the Starborn and the Shivans will last about as long as it takes the Starborn to realise that the Shivans are actually aware of their presence and trying to kill them. Once they are aware of that they will wipe out the Shivans. The Shivans only got away with it at Capella because it hasn't occured to the Starborn that the Shivans could be aware of them.
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i suppose the question then would be: is the shivan gm aware of the precariousness of their situation?
no: the shiva would probably have already screwed up or the starborn themselves aren't particularly bright either and failed to notice the attempts.
yes: implies a somewhat higher order of intelligence on the shivan's side.
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The shivans have only made one overt move to attack the Starborn so far and it was covered by their attacks on the GTVA. Whether they'll get away with the next one is another matter entirely.
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I suppose that it’s inevitable that the Groupmind will make itself obvious to the Starborn but it hasn’t happened at the time of MG – or there wouldn’t be a GM to talk about. As far as the SB’s intelligence, as I said earlier, it’s more “changing mental gears” than any lack of IQ. How long would you ignore (or rationalize away) any evidence pointing to the bees in your yard plotting to kill you?
Also keep in mind that even if the GM became fully aware of its relationship to the SB, it would still try to eliminate them. It simply has no capacity for gratitude or filial responsibility or any of the other feelings that define human relationships. (Inexplicably, it does like mimes. In fact, there’s a mime-eating contest on the same day as the annual pie-eating contest.)
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y'know, reading all your bumf, I always thought the crux of MG was about Vasudans trapped in Solwhen the node was destroyed. Is that still true/partially true or have you fellas expanded to include bigger things ?
TBH I always liked the fact the story (appeared) quite compact but that doesn't seem to the case anymore.
And yeah, I am bored enough to be reading background from hibernating projects :nervous:
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MG is about the Vasudans trapped in Sol and always has been. That's what most of the missions will be about. But MG is designed to work on several levels. If you read the backstory on the site you'll see that the real story is going on at another level and that basically the conflict between the two sides is part of a larger game being played by the Starborn.
If you look at the main FS2 campaign you might be left wondering why Bosch acted the way he did but the story hangs together quite well. The same sort of thing is going on in MG. The idea is that everyone can see why the Vasudans and Terrans don't get on and why a conflict between the two is inevitable. But when playing MG you get the chance to see the universe from a different perspective too and you'll be able to see that behind the scenes the Starborn are pulling the strings and making things happen.
Have a read of the background here (http://mindgames.hard-light.net/Background.html) and you'll see that this isn't the first time they've done it either.
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I havent read that for years, I see its been added to since last time. Very nice, :yes:
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I don't think it has actually. I suspect you're confusing it with the main introduction (http://mindgames.hard-light.net/index.html).
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No its definitely the backgorund, last itme i read it it stopped here,
aware of the attacks. Eventually, the Groupmind was forced to acknowledge that the Starborn could only be attacked indirectly.
And it was on a black background methinks......maybe someone ripped you off elsewhere or it was a really really old preview..
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Seems more likely the page stopped loading for you :)
It's looked like that since before we were hosted on HLP :)
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I'm going back a few years now, you used to be hosted somewhere else, didn't ya? :confused:
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Actually we only made the site in order to get hosting on HLP. It's possible that someone could stumble on the site back then but the first place you were likely to see the site was on HLP as we didn't advertise till we were hosted.
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Back in the days, all i did was play CS beta and search for "FS2 mods" in google. So yeah i guess that's what happened. :)
Still the "new" as you say, ties the FS2 events all together. I'm impressed/happy with it. :yes:
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I can't take credit for it. That stuff is all Geezer's work and was pretty much done before I joined the project :)
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Diamond Geezer isn't still knocking about is he?
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Geezer not DiamondGeezer. Although DG has been known to pop in since he left.
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Um... I know this thread is kinda old, but I have a question!
Was McCarthy a sensitive?
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If you're talking about Lt. Alexander and not Tail-Gunner Joe or MTV's Jenny, then I'd say that there was a good possibility that he was. Not a high level Sensitive, but maybe someone who 'knew' deep in his bones that his actions were needful and correct.
But, then again, maybe not. ;7
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Lt. Alexander McCarthy, formerly stationed GTD Intrepid, who defected to the Vasudans with four Apollo fighters and stole the Avenger prototype...
What do you mean by ;7...
Sussspiciousssss....
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The starborn aren't responsible for every betrayal or war or incident in human history. In fact they aren't responsible for a large number of them.
McCarthy may or may not have been influenced by the Starborn.
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It wasn't McCarthy, It was the one-armed man..................................
OK it was McCarthy.
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What about Admiral Tallanis (leader of HoL)? I think he fits the whole 'give info to enemy' strategy of the Starborn.
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so do the Starborn play things like B5 Shadows ie; playin' one side against another without revealing 'emselves ?
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Yeah, something like that. They play the 'Great Game' which consists of engineering two species and then getting them to fight each other. Points are awarded for how violent the fight is (so the Battle of Endor would be a ten :P).
Actually, mission designers are the real Starborn
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Roanoke - you said you read our bumf. Did you see the website Starborn FAQ as well? There's a discussion about the Great Game there. http://www.3dactionplanet.com/hlp/hosted/mindgames/Starborn%20FAQ.html
And Snail - mostly right but there's no requirement that the Great Game be played between species. The SB are perfectly happy to see large scale wars on pre-spaceflight planets - as long as there's plenty of pyrotechnics.
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Like WWII!!
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Or turfwars, Yay...........Actually the Falklands was a game between two starborn, then one sneezed and actually lost control of British Forces so we got our heads on straight and just whooped the Argies....
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:lol:
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here are some songs you should put on this mod seriously and it makes since because of the titles
pov: starborn
Rage Against the Machine: Sleep now in the Fire
album: Battle of Los Angeles
pov: any organism that has discovered the starborn and their stupidness
RATM: Maria
album: Battle of Los Angeles
try limewire