Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Mobius on September 13, 2008, 10:09:01 am
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I was wondering if there's any canon source saying that Shivan spacecraft are piloted by pilots. I suddenly started suspecting that the spacecraft themselves are Shivans who don't need pilots, pretty much like BSG's Cylon Raiders and SW's Drone Fighters.
I have the impression, just to give an example, that a Shivan as we know it is too big to fit in an Astaroth fighter. I also think that Shivan spacecraft have no internal cockpits(maybe the pilots are inside and check what's out like bats do). Maybe there are smaller Shivans serving as pilots?
Or maybe there's a canon source I completely forgot about?
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I thought about this too, but the Dragon fighter is definitely shown to have a cockpit in the FS1 command briefing, and I'm sure there would be some information on this seeing as how the GTVA captured at least 5 Shivan fighters throughout history.
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It could be another inconsistency? I'd like to see a pic showing a Shivan(there are some around) and an Astaroth.
The fact that the GTVA captured at least 5 Shivan fighters(1 Dragon and 4 Maras) doesn't necessarily mean that Shivan pilots exist. Maybe both the GTA and the GTVA modified the captured fighters and removed the Shivan "brain" to fit pilots inside.
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Nothing in the game indicates that shivan fighters are alive or that they don't have normal cockpits.
Shivans are big, but not THAT big, especially since tehy have 5 arms that can be folded. Also note that FS fighters are big...very big.
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I tend to think that Shivans integrate themselves into their fighter and synchronize themselves with it, and power it with their own internal energy source (respiration...?) to make it work.
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...I suddenly started suspecting that the spacecraft themselves are Shivans...
Then why do they explode and not bleed?
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Shivans explode too! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HusS00BumiQ) :wtf:
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Shivans explode too! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HusS00BumiQ) :wtf:
Then why do they explode and not bleed?
The point was that they explode. If they were "Shivans", then surely they'd get wounds and start to bleed and so on.
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But think of it this way: perhaps Shivans don't bleed at all.
I guess Shivan pilots use four of their five feet to control the ship. One for movement, one for guns, one for ETS and one for...communications? :nervous:
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Well, maybe their greater number of appendages allows them to efficiently use maneuvering thrusters, so they can move in all three axes simultaneously. :nod:
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I've dwelt on this idea too. Maybe the Shivan ships are a type of Shivan or a sub-species, a bit like the Tyranid ships in Warhammer 40K are a particular type of Tyranid that belong to the same overall race. But I've nothing to back this up with.
From the FS Wiki:
Shivan technology has proved baffling for both Terran and Vasudan scientists. Although their weapons and technology by necessity obey the same physical laws, the systems of Shivan craft seem to be fully integrated with the pilot's biology, making it difficult (but still possible) to use their spacecraft for espionage and spying. Only three documented sucessful missions have been carried out using retrofitted Shivan spacecraft to traverse Shivan territory under disguise.
There's no mention in the wiki of whether this is canon information or not, though. I don't recall reading that anywhere in FS1 or 2.
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That better not be non-canon info on the Wiki again. :doubt:
Could someone please verify by checking the FS1 Species.tbl. It's not in the FS2 Species.tbl.
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I don't see any other sensible explanation than ejecting from fighter for this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJN5y-jfJKY&fmt=18).
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I don't see any other sensible explanation than ejecting from fighter for this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJN5y-jfJKY&fmt=18).
:ha:
The title was changed. No wonder I couldn't find it. :D
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No, I just checked it, that's not the source either.
That video in the supersecrets folder on the ST disk shows that Shivans can survive outside of any exterior life support system. The FS1 Species.tbl mentions that parts of their thorax seem to act like compartments found in space suits, so what we see in the video can be perhaps be taken to be canon on this basis. I'm thinking that they actually fly their craft though, much for the same reasons the Vasudans and Terrans do i.e. to move around and fight more effectively in space/augment their natural abilities. Only [V] can confirm of course.
Edit: It's always bugged me why more details about the Shivans weren't declassified/made known after the events of FS1. The simple answer could be that their very physical nature is so different from that of Vasudans and humans that there'd been very little progress made up to 2367. With all the destruction I'd imagine there'd be lots of salvaging of Shivan equipment and bodies by various groups during the Reconstruction period. But it seems as if any technology acquired from the Great War was pooled together and only one group of researchers was allowed to work on it, to the exclusion of any other involvement (GTI most likely). Maybe it was out of fear of developing something that might "backfire" (the ETAK project had to be resurrected by Bosch, so someone cancelled the project) or fear of starting another Hades-type rebellion, or just lack of funds and personnel to put towards the research during Reconstruction.
I think I'm going on a tangent here, better stop now.
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On a slightly related note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neTkU9ZW3A0&NR=1
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On a slightly related note:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neTkU9ZW3A0&NR=1
L O L ! ! !
Other than that- the Shivans may be some bio-mechanical Charlie Foxtrots- they seem to have beam cannons embedded into them, as well as white-hot blades in their arms, and glowy eyes. The fact that they seem to act as if they had a groupmind (not totally canon- just a thought ppl here have because the FS 1 fleet got dumb after the big 'L' was killed) also seems to put them nearer Terminator than an ant on the mech to bio scale.
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Well, maybe their greater number of appendages allows them to efficiently use maneuvering thrusters, so they can move in all three axes simultaneously. :nod:
I'ts far more likely that shivans connect to the ship via some man(shivan)-machine interface...like a built in USB port :P
the have 5 apenadages, but those appendages ae big and end with 3 sharp and long clows...not exactly suited for fine manipulation.
Frankly, I don't see how shivans could build anything with those manipulators. Hrm...mayhaps another party is building their ships for them?
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No, I just checked it, that's not the source either.
That video in the supersecrets folder on the ST disk shows that Shivans can survive outside of any exterior life support system. The FS1 Species.tbl mentions that parts of their thorax seem to act like compartments found in space suits, so what we see in the video can be perhaps be taken to be canon on this basis. I'm thinking that they actually fly their craft though, much for the same reasons the Vasudans and Terrans do i.e. to move around and fight more effectively in space/augment their natural abilities. Only [V] can confirm of course.
Is that video even canon though? The dumb thing with a Shivan on a Thoth.
Seriously. The ST folder has 6 videos in it. One of them (run) seems like it might've actually be from a cutscene. Vasudan in a kitchen is obviously a joke. The SpecC's look like like they could be some proxies for a scene, but they look like a bit of a joke too. And the last one is some wingman thing. It's unclear to me as to whether the Thoth/Shivan one is a joke or meant to be real (as in, real in the game) quite honestly and there's little evidence at least in that folder which points to either one.
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Actually, I haven't seen the video, only a screenshot of the Shivan standing on some ship - I should've said so. So yes maybe it can't be considered as being canon, it may have been made just for a laugh.
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FSRef bible has in one of the cut content cutscenes something about Shivans just jumping off the hull of the Lucy of something.
And I'm pretty sure Shivan Fighters are piloted...its not so easy to rip out an AI and rewire the whole thing...that might not even work.
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The Shivans in the cockpit might not be the same class of Shivans encountered in the transport. For all we know those Shivans have been armored up for marine combat, whereas the Shivans in cockpits might not be nearly so bulky.
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I've dwelt on this idea too. Maybe the Shivan ships are a type of Shivan or a sub-species, a bit like the Tyranid ships in Warhammer 40K are a particular type of Tyranid that belong to the same overall race. But I've nothing to back this up with.
Tyranids and Shivans are very similar. Maybe they reflect the same concept used in sci-fi stories. The Cylons are pretty close to this standard, too. None of these factions/species uses conventional pilots.
The Shivans in the cockpit might not be the same class of Shivans encountered in the transport. For all we know those Shivans have been armored up for marine combat, whereas the Shivans in cockpits might not be nearly so bulky.
Very good point here, Mars. For a while I suspected that Shivan beam cannons were basically big Shivans using their energy to power up beams(certain kinds of ants become very big by eating a lot of food).
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From the FS Wiki:
Shivan technology has proved baffling for both Terran and Vasudan scientists. Although their weapons and technology by necessity obey the same physical laws, the systems of Shivan craft seem to be fully integrated with the pilot's biology, making it difficult (but still possible) to use their spacecraft for espionage and spying. Only three documented sucessful missions have been carried out using retrofitted Shivan spacecraft to traverse Shivan territory under disguise.
Three?
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Three?
Ugh ****ing non-canon info!! This is pissing me off.
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Actually, I haven't seen the video, only a screenshot of the Shivan standing on some ship - I should've said so. So yes maybe it can't be considered as being canon, it may have been made just for a laugh.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJN5y-jfJKY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJN5y-jfJKY)
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The Shivans in the cockpit might not be the same class of Shivans encountered in the transport. For all we know those Shivans have been armored up for marine combat, whereas the Shivans in cockpits might not be nearly so bulky.
Very good point here, Mars. For a while I suspected that Shivan beam cannons were basically big Shivans using their energy to power up beams(certain kinds of ants become very big by eating a lot of food).
I agree, the big nasy Shivans are probably a soldier class. There may be other classes of Shivan that noone has seen.
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Well I imageine when the landed the Dragon in the Galatea's hanger and opened it up they had lots of Marines standing around.
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Shivans are pretty scary if they can just bust through Thoth armour using only their legs . . .
Perhaps the Captured Dragon's Shivan might have burst their the Charon's docking point too, but wasn't equipped with anti-marine weapons.
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I always pictured it as a little white cyborg spider larva looking thing, utterly defenseless and plugged into its ship.
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About the funny video showing a Shivan as it takes a Thoth down:
The video combines canon and funny aspect of the Shivans. The canon aspect is that Shivans can survive in space, the funny aspect is that a Shivan reaches a Thoth and makes it crash on a Typhon.
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I always pictured it as a little white cyborg spider larva looking thing, utterly defenseless and plugged into its ship.
Like the Invid? (Inbit)
About the funny video showing a Shivan as it takes a Thoth down:
The video combines canon and funny aspect of the Shivans. The canon aspect is that Shivans can survive in space, the funny aspect is that a Shivan reaches a Thoth and makes it crash on a Typhon.
Is the survive in space thing canon from the Ref bible? Or where does that become canon?
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About the funny video showing a Shivan as it takes a Thoth down:
The video combines canon and funny aspect of the Shivans. The canon aspect is that Shivans can survive in space, the funny aspect is that a Shivan reaches a Thoth and makes it crash on a Typhon.
Is the survive in space thing canon from the Ref bible? Or where does that become canon?
Check FS2's Species.tbl and...the HLP station pic :P
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About the funny video showing a Shivan as it takes a Thoth down:
The video combines canon and funny aspect of the Shivans. The canon aspect is that Shivans can survive in space, the funny aspect is that a Shivan reaches a Thoth and makes it crash on a Typhon.
Is the survive in space thing canon from the Ref bible? Or where does that become canon?
Check FS2's Species.tbl and...the HLP station pic :P
Ok will do thanks
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About the funny video showing a Shivan as it takes a Thoth down:
The video combines canon and funny aspect of the Shivans. The canon aspect is that Shivans can survive in space, the funny aspect is that a Shivan reaches a Thoth and makes it crash on a Typhon.
Is the survive in space thing canon from the Ref bible? Or where does that become canon?
Check FS2's Species.tbl and...the HLP station pic :P
Ok will do thanks
It says that the Shivans evolved in a zero gravity environment...
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About the funny video showing a Shivan as it takes a Thoth down:
The video combines canon and funny aspect of the Shivans. The canon aspect is that Shivans can survive in space, the funny aspect is that a Shivan reaches a Thoth and makes it crash on a Typhon.
Is the survive in space thing canon from the Ref bible? Or where does that become canon?
Check FS2's Species.tbl and...the HLP station pic :P
Ok will do thanks
It says that the Shivans evolved in a zero gravity environment...
It has been hypothesized that Shivans may have spent their evolutionary process in a zero-gravity environment.
Hypothesized. May. Possibly. Not necessarily.
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About the funny video showing a Shivan as it takes a Thoth down:
The video combines canon and funny aspect of the Shivans. The canon aspect is that Shivans can survive in space, the funny aspect is that a Shivan reaches a Thoth and makes it crash on a Typhon.
Is the survive in space thing canon from the Ref bible? Or where does that become canon?
Check FS2's Species.tbl and...the HLP station pic :P
Ok will do thanks
It says that the Shivans evolved in a zero gravity environment...
It has been hypothesized that Shivans may have spent their evolutionary process in a zero-gravity environment.
Hypothesized. May. Possibly. Not necessarily.
That's a way to make canon info plausible. The GTVA doesn't know a lot about the Shivans and the only legitimate way to inform the player about certain aspects of the Shivans is to write words like "hypothesized". It wouldn't have been credible otherwise. :nod:
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In-universe info ("It is hypothesized that...") overrides out-of-universe fan explanations ("They said 'hypothesized' because it's more credible this way").
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:v: gave us info in a credible way, where's the problem?
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Hypothesized = Not necessarily true.
All GTVA theories could be blown out of the water if FS3 had been released. The GTVA don't know, so we don't know.
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But :v: knows and that tbl comes from :v:. The GTVA might not know but :v: does.
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And :v: might have put misinformation in the Species.tbl.
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But :v: knows and that tbl comes from :v:. The GTVA might not know but :v: does.
Assuming they've actually fleshed out what Shivans are, that is. All I've heard [V] say is that they are a "symptom of a much bigger problem" or somesuch, outside of what FS1 and 2 tell us.
And that what we see in the Hallfight cutscene is the real thing, an actual Shivan.
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The "symptom" thing is more about FS3.
The Species.tbl was :v:'s only way to tell us something about the Shivans. With our without proof the Hive theory, just to give an example, is the more plausible one giving the way they act/react.
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The Species.tbl was :v:'s only way to tell us something about the Shivans. With our without proof the Hive theory, just to give an example, is the more plausible one giving the way they act/react.
Who says that they actually want to give us this info? It's far more plausible they're just throwing around ideas for us, not proving things.
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There's enough proof to accept the Hive mind theory if we apply that to the way the Shivans behave. Whatever controls the Shivans may or may not fit well with the Hive theory, ok, but the pragmatic part fits well.
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:v: gave us info in a credible way, where's the problem?
That's not explicit. We have an in-universe hypothesis that has not been revealed to be true or false by anyone.
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It's the only hypothesis we need to follow until others are given...
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[omglolsomanytagsithinktheforummachineryisgoingtobreaksoon]It's the only hypothesis we need to follow until others are given...[/shadow][/i][/color]
We don't "need to follow" anything. The canon info says "maybe". So, basically if someone else says something else, he doesn't have as much credibility as the canon speculation. But it is not wrong to bring forth one's visions in, say, usermade campaigns.
Now, had the canon info said "the Shivans were explicitly developed in a zero-g environment", we would need to follow it, since canon material says that that's how things are. But, as it was mentioned repeatedly, it's all just "maybe". "Perhaps". "Could be but I shall have my tea now".
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Shivans, remember, seem to wear some sort of mechanized exoskeleton. Which means that when it slams through that Thoth cockput, it's probably not all 100% raw shivan muscle doing it.
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Shivans, remember, seem to wear some sort of mechanized exoskeleton. Which means that when it slams through that Thoth cockput, it's probably not all 100% raw shivan muscle doing it.
Already debunked by the developers. What we see is a Shivan, not something in an exoskeleton.
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Hmm... I coulda sworn I read something about that in the techroom...
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you did goatmaster. It was one of the few hypothesise's in the game about the shivans that was solved by V. Since shivans are so big, and a good deal of them is legs. They can compact and fold themselves up. I don't see any problem with a shivan fitting into any of there fighters.
If shivans didn't fold themselves up before they get in. Then obviously there's something we're missing information on concerning our own species and how we get into standard human cockpits. Obviously getting into a human cockpit upside, spread eagle, sideways, standing up, or arms and legs out stretched in all directions is not going to work. A human must sit down in the standard human cockpit seat and that's how humans do it. Now when applying other thinking to how a shivan fits in one of their fighters. You need to realize that fs fighters are frakking huge! And you also got to realize that while TV forces get into their cockpits a certain way, that the shivans have a certain way to get into their cockpits as well. I'm pretty sure shivans don't get jammed into their fighters hoping they fit (that'd be really funny watching a shivan device do that). I think they fold themselves up to do it. Probably their form of sitting down in a cockpit seat.