Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on July 27, 2001, 08:47:00 pm
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Ok, I know that for a mission to be engaging, fun, challenging, etc. it needs to essentially be a mission where Alpha 1 has a fairly large effect on the outcome - or at least that's the generally accepted view.
Well, personally, I'm sick of it. I know that the whole point of making a mission is so that the player can enjoy him/herself, but whatever happened to a slight streak of realism?
I've encountered a number of reviews slamming the last mission in the main campaign for the fact that Alpha 1 can simply stay inside the jump node until the signal is given, and the mission will still have been considered a success. "The player should be given not only the privelege but the responsibility to decide the outcome of the mission" they say. Heck with that, I say.
It's thinking like that that contribute to the creation of missions where towards the end, the only ships left flying are Alpha 1 and 14 wings of enemies. Go, Super-Ace Alpha One!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) Gimme a break.
Now don't get me wrong - I'm not going to say that a certain mission sucks just because it relies on Alpha 1 for a critical goal. But when that same reliance keeps on repeating itself throughout whole campaigns, it gets ridiculous. I appreciated very much those Derelict/Warzone missions (can't remember which campaign they were in...) where you had to fly around planting nav markers. Why? Because they had that part where you were in hibernation or whatever and your buddies were doing the work for a bit. Nice touch.
I would love to see more missions where, instead of hearing Command saying: "Alpha 1, we need you to take out the main guns on that cruiser before it rips through our convoy!", you hear "New cruiser in the area! Gamma wing, disarm it ASAP!"
Or perhaps a "large"-scale capital ship battle (no, not BOES*) where the only contribution you make to the battle would be to shoot that Shivan of Alpha 2's back. Poor guy always gets blasted to bits 'cause Gung-Ho Alpha One is out disarming the Shivan Armada. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
So, I leave you with these thoughts, and a question: What is your take on all this?
Note: I have a feeling that I came across as more "anti-Alpha One" than I really am... oh well.
* Battle of Endor Syndrome
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar (//"http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 07-27-2001).]
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(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Hillarious! But oh so true. I hate those missions. You know which. "Alpha 1! The beams on that cruiser have an effective range of 3000 meters! Disable it before the convoy is in range!"
I wondered what happened to the rest of the wings also. I doubt that my GTF Hercules has a special channel for Allied Command to only talk to me. I want to see missions where other wings are given orders, and you hear them.
Also. I hate this trend of the 'GTVA-Super-Strong-We-Always-Win!' missions. What happened to the Shivans Technological Superiority? What happened to the Rebels element of surprise? Why didn't the Shivans use self-destructing cargo containers in FS2?
All questions I'd like to see answered. I hate how theres a mission where the 'GTD Bonzai' is entering Shivan space with a wing of Myrms as escort, and suddenly, when they encounter the first threat, usually the 'SD Bielzabob', 4 wings of Ursas, 2 wings of Zeus, and 3 wings of Herc II's come out of nowhere, and save the day.
I want a realistic mission. One that reminisces of FS1, where the Shivans were the great Destroyers, Where the GTA and PVN were not Kayser-weilding Killing machines. What happened to Technologically Inferior?
Ok, Rant over... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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*clapclapclapclapclapclapclapclap*
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[WARNING, PIMP ALERT]
Well, yeah, there really shold be more missions where Alpha wing has to, say, escort a bomber wing in, or distract enemy fighters while the other guys go in and kick *** . Not too much, because being in backstage all the time blows, but once in a while. There should, however, be MORE interactivity if anything- I want a mission where I can choose to screw the GTVA/whoever and join the other side while playing, not just those damned loop missions. I'm working on putting a system like this in Left Behind, and altough it only sometimes works, it's pretty cool- you can even join arguments between your wingmen in one mission.
As for the Shivans v. Terrans, it's pretty clear that the Shivans have always relied on kicking *** the first hit, and not letting their victims adapt, Tey may not have developed new tech since the Ancients time. The Terrans, however did grow up, and stole all the Shivan tech. Well, I have a little something for both sides in LB...
Join the LB staff today!
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Left Behind:
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html ("http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html")
I'm right.
You're wrong.
Any questions?(Shut up back there!)
[This message has been edited by Stryke 9 (edited 07-27-2001).]
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Sorry, No p1mping tolerated in this serious discussion thread. You have violated shares act 23-09g-6.01b You shall be sent to Vega pending your trial.
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
Sorry, No p1mping tolerated in this serious discussion thread. You have violated shares act 23-09g-6.01b You shall be sent to Vega pending your trial.
Damn (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) I wanted to pimp my campaign too...
Coz I want the FS1 feeling back in it (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif).
yeah, in FS1 (at least at the begining), the shivan were frightening. Bah, that's OT.
I agree at 100% with sandwich about the alpha1 issue. I like to hunt down fighters while Beta wing is destroying the lucifer engines... I always thought it wass ridiculous that, in fs2, if there was not alpha 1 (yep, only him), the colossus wouldn't have won against the first sathanas...
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Hmph. Come and get me! I have made up entire armies to defend my not-quite-half made campaign! Plus, I was pointing out that there is really a solution...
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How often does one pilot change the course of battle? Normally, when they screw up and are at the wrong place, and see the enemies coming in from an unexpected direction. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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Very well thought out. And it's very true. Let's see you put it into SOpO (My acronym for SOC: Operation Otara) - I'll be ready to beta-test. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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I agree, for the most part. I think that in most missions, Alpha One should be able to swing the battle, without deciding completely on his own- for example, if Alpha One stayed out of the battle completely, where doing nothing will mean probable defeat but even being A-1 SUPARPILOT won't decide the battle by itself.
As for making the Shivans more powerful, that could be done as well. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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Originally posted by Shrike:
How often does one pilot change the course of battle? Normally, when they screw up and are at the wrong place, and see the enemies coming in from an unexpected direction.
Pardon me, mon sieur (sp?), but I must run that through a "reality" translation: (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
"How often does the same pilot completely determine the course of battle? Normally in Hollywood, there is always a so-very-predictable result of our super-hero Alpha 1 screwing up. Such as enemies who, without exception, sneak in a side door that Our Hero is pukeing on the other side of."
Sorry, couldn't resist...
And Setekh - just look at the beta: Mission 1 requires Alpha 1 to do some stuff (sign up and find out, all you curious people!) to prevet needless loss of GTVA forces in-mission. But the mission, aside from the first thing required of Alpha wing (which needs absolutely no "human-only" skill - the AI could accomplish it by themselves if they were told to), would run just fine without Our Hero doing much of anything.
Mission 2 - hehehe... talk about taking advantage of a human players abilities to the max! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
And mission 3, like 1, requires a small thing, best left to human judgement but accomplishable by the AI (again, if they were told to), and then Our Hero can sit back and take screenshots. Well, it's not that easy... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
The crux of the matter is in the AI. Face it: the AI sucks, especially for fighters/bombers. I mean, has anyone ever played Bearbaiting through and found that the wingmen actually managed to destroy one of the flak turrets? I haven't. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
It's really a shame that even though (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) added flak and AAA beams to the capital ships, they appearently left the fighter AI alone. In FS1, when an AI fighter was attacking a capital ship, the only threat was if the same shield quadrant was kept facing a turret that was pounding at it. But that wasn't much of a problem, since the AI never pulled an "Alpha 1" and stayed stationary relative to the target, blasting away. They would generally make passes on the ship and then veer off for another run.
But in FS2 that simply doesn't work. When I attack a capital ship that has the usual plethora of weaponry, I generally try to take out the AAA that covers the area I'm flying in. Then I might go for the flak, if it becomes a real nusiance. But not getting hit by AAA beams is critical. The AI couldn't care less. And that is where the problem lies.
If the AI has a Maxim mounted, and there's no fighters in the area, it should make use of the long range on the Maxim and pound away from a distance. Like Alpha One's all around the world. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) But no, it has to fly close and get a taste of the anti-fighter defenses on the ship. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
So, with the problem being in the AI, I was looking in the AI.TBL. There's really not all that much in there, but I was wondering if anyone knew under which circumstances the "patience" and "courage" values come into play?
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Sushi:
As for making the Shivans more powerful, that could be done as well. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
That WILL be done, pilot.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
So, with the problem being in the AI, I was looking in the AI.TBL. There's really not all that much in there, but I was wondering if anyone knew under which circumstances the "patience" and "courage" values come into play?
Something to keep in mind...*cough*QM*cough*
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Dwarr?
Anyway, nothing really can be done about the AIs. In case you haven't noticed, AIs for al games are stupid as **** ... It's up to the mapmakers to make 'em look smart.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Dwarr?
Anyway, nothing really can be done about the AIs. In case you haven't noticed, AIs for al games are stupid as **** ... It's up to the mapmakers to make 'em look smart.
I agree, but there are usually many tweaks that can be done to the AI in various games.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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I case anyone didn't know already...
The AI improves as you ramp up the difficulty. I just started playing the campaign again on Insane, I was quite surprised and pleased when on a couple of missions, my wingmen were getting as many kills as I was.
The biggest problem with the AI in the game is that it listens to the player too much. Given an order, they will follow that order right up until the moment they get creamed. The AI is pretty good tactically, but awful strategically.
So, to make more "Realistic" missions, make sure the AI have simple goals that don't change much in the game. A massive dogfight works fairly well, a surgical strike between capships doesn't.
As for the "patience" and "courage" that's for the AI dogfighting. Patience is willingness to wait for a good opportunity to strike, courage, as best I can tell, is how likely they will be to win a game of Laser Chicken. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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Originally posted by Sushi:
I case anyone didn't know already...
The AI improves as you ramp up the difficulty. I just started playing the campaign again on Insane, I was quite surprised and pleased when on a couple of missions, my wingmen were getting as many kills as I was.
The biggest problem with the AI in the game is that it listens to the player too much. Given an order, they will follow that order right up until the moment they get creamed. The AI is pretty good tactically, but awful strategically.
So, to make more "Realistic" missions, make sure the AI have simple goals that don't change much in the game. A massive dogfight works fairly well, a surgical strike between capships doesn't.
As for the "patience" and "courage" that's for the AI dogfighting. Patience is willingness to wait for a good opportunity to strike, courage, as best I can tell, is how likely they will be to win a game of Laser Chicken. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Talk to that about freelancer people (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) they're envious of the FS AI, believe me (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
for the fact they listen to you too much, can"t that be fixed by the priority rollup in fred?
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
...What happened to the Shivans Technological Superiority?...
And you expect me not to p1mp?
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- Arnav Manchanda
ICQ: 6228797
Creator of Technological Superiority: http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/techsup ("http://www.3dap.com/hlp/techsup")
"At least I have job" - Unidentified Soviet Flak Trooper before being prismed.
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I dunno... When I play, I just have the AI cover me, and they manage not to die and kill most of the annoying baddies at the same time... There are things the AI is better at than others- in contrast there's the "destroy subsystem" command, aka the "fly around like dumb ****s, don't shoot, and crash right into the nearest AAA beam" command.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
Talk to that about freelancer people (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) they're envious of the FS AI, believe me (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
for the fact they listen to you too much, can"t that be fixed by the priority rollup in fred?
No, it can't. FRED only lets you assign priorities up to 89, just so player orders will ALWAYS be able to take precedence. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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They need to take that friggin' rolling-eyes smiley off the server... Why don't they replace it with something like the thumbs-up thing, only with a middle finger? It captures the mood of the rolling-eyes crowd so much better.
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You are retarded (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
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-Director of the staff of Hidden Terror. ("http://www.hiddenterror.f2s.com")
-Fleet Admiral of The Ancients Armada ("http://ancientsarmada.cjb.net/")
The fear always controls our attitude, let us fear no more!
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
They need to take that friggin' rolling-eyes smiley off the server... Why don't they replace it with something like the thumbs-up thing, only with a middle finger? It captures the mood of the rolling-eyes crowd so much better.
You missed my point- I was rolling my eyes at the way we couldn't change it, not the person who asked the question. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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Urrr, guys, you're going mental about a damn smiley! You're going mental about a smiley in the middle of a rather good discussion to boot.
Please chill out and contribute you fools (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
You gotta have some preference, Alpha 1 hero of the universe or alpha 1 member of hard working team?
I personally go for a balanced mixture i.e. I want to see my team win but I like to feel that they might not have done it without me.
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Well, it all depends on the scale of the missions! If it's Alpha Wing on patrol, obviously player input will be vital, but if it's Endor syndrome, than the player better not be too important. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) It's possible to be reasonable in the influence Alpha One has, it just takes a little common sense.
Most people can do the smaller missions quite well, where Alpha One is allowed to have a big impact, and there are a lot of such missions that are very good. However, making large-scale missions where the player SHOULDN'T have such a big impact, and making them fun and making them work, is a bit more touch and go...and you end up with a situation where Alpha One takes on the enemy all by himself.
My best example of this, in the main campaign, is Slaying Ravana. I hate that mission. Your dumb bomber wingmen fire off a salvo or two and then die, and Alpha is left to destroy the ship virtually on his own. At least that mission has the decency to keep it interesting by launching fighters at you, something that is noticably absent in some missions, where the destroyer happily gets shot because it forgets it has a fighterbay.
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Sushi- the OTHER white meat!
Accelerate your game-Velocity Mod ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/velocity.htm")
Sushi's Freespace Zone ("http://sushicw.homestead.com/files/freespace/index.htm")-Future home of loads of cool stuff.
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Wow, this is great, staying on-topic and all... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
But I do want to change the direction a (very) slight bit: What kind of recognition do you think Command should have for Alpha 1's obvious skills? In other words, to what extent would you reasonably expect to see Command taking advantage (in a positive sense) of the ace material that Alpha 1 is made out of? What kind of special assignments, etc?
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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SOC missions (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
more chances to get kiiled, in fact.
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Split campaign at some point- If Alpha 1 sucks, suicide missions. If kicks *** , very hard suicide missions. Always flying intercept, of course, because bombers-[2-hour rant deleted].
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For example
in the mission that you test the Pegasus( Proving Grounds I believe) Alpha wing alone is supposed to protect the Aquitaine aginst a Moloch, bomber wings, and fighters wings. The only reinforcement is epsilon wing, which has three fighters. The Aquitaine is supposed to have over 150 fighter craft! Why do they not deploy 5 more wings of 4 fighters! It shouldn't take too long. They were in the Shivan nebula, everyone should be on combat alert! But... Super Hero Alpha 1 can save the day because he's the player!!!!
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Doesn't the fighterbay malfunction?
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht:
For example.....
The Aquitaine is supposed to have over 150 fighter craft! Why do they not deploy 5 more wings of 4 fighters! It shouldn't take too long. They were in the Shivan nebula, everyone should be on combat alert!
That is beyond true, i mean in missions there you have to defend a destoryer, and there is only 3 other craft out there.... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) also what pissed me off the most is that mission where the colossus gets blasted by the sathanas, now i know they had a ton of bombers in that thing, why only launch dealta wing, i mean, 10 wings of bomber armed with helios, along with C's beams could have taken that sathanas out easy. but then i agin i do reamber sor some reason colossus stoped firing it's beams... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) i know the game has limitaions but still, a front line battle should really be, a front line battle (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Defination of a shivan: Target Practice....
"I am that which lurks in the night, I am both the fallen, and the man"
Webmaster for...
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We Take Modders....
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Originally posted by Nephilim:
i know the game has limitaions but still, a front line battle should really be, a front line battle (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
I agree 100% - (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) just wanted to show off the Big C... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif) "Wow, lookie at the big explosion it makes! Yay!" (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/rolleyes.gif)
However, realistic frontline battles in a single mission can very easily border on BoE syndrome, as well as drag down the framerate. Both of which are no-no's.
Also, consider this: Aside from the bottlenecks of jump nodes and the strategic installations/cargo depots/disabled ships/planets/convoys/etc, there is absolutely no way for a fleet to block the passage of another fleet. This was mentioned in the game a number of times, with Admiral Koth's Orion and even the with Iceni, I believe. So unless a battle took place at one of those locations, I find it highly unlikely that it would be a large battle at all.
Forces would either be spread out over the whole system (dumb), or concentrated at jump nodes.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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What I wanna know is, why is a billion-ton hulk covered with weapons, roughly the size of a city and containing thousands of soldiers, so damn frail? A couple of bomber could take down the Colossus in under 5 minutes, a single bomber wipe out a Hecate in about one... These ships are useless in combat! The only exception are the corvettes, which are fairly tough for the size, but seriously: wouldn't you want your army in something that isn't constantly getting taken down by, say, three Nephilims? (see Argonautica). At least they wouldn't need such an enormous crew...
Oh, and Sandwich, I did a mission a while back for PA, shows you what a REAL blockade is like. Very cool. Get it when it comes out.
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So sayeth the Human Crab.
Left Behind:
www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html ("http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/lbmain.html")
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I think one of the reasons (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) held off of having more realistic (I use the word lightly) battles in terms of ship numbers is that perhaps the computers of the day simply could not handle them. However we now know that we can handle objects of 13k polys, never before dreamed of, so obviously the engine is capable of stretching. But how far, before the hardware just completely outruns the engine? FS2 is showing its age.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
However, realistic frontline battles in a single mission can very easily border on BoE syndrome, as well as drag down the framerate. Both of which are no-no's.
Why? I do like BoE like missions...
Otherwise, about the colo vs sath. The pb is really tyhe power of player comps, I think: if the colo can send I don't know how many bomber wings, well, the sathanas can do it too (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)it also have a fighter bay, and for what I know, it could house ten times the number of bombers onboard the colo. So basically, bombers would be only there to show off, and we're talking of a game 2 or 3 years old, right? So that many bombers would have drained down the resources of any computer then. Sad but true, I think (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Good point, that does boil down to the poly count, but why couldn't they make the capships themselves tougher? Save a lot of polys wasted on fighters and bombers...
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You're all missing something. The capital ships in FS2 are tough. Very tough. Bombers can take them out easily? Yeah, they can. But look at what they throw at them:
From the Freespace 1 WEAPONS.TBL:
GTM-3 Tsunami
Intelligent tracking similar to GTA targeting system - prior to launch, communicates with ship computer, gathering data about enemy target types and whereabouts - slow, low maneuverability - antimatter warhead (500 tonne3 mass-to-energy conversion) - due to instability of antimatter, no more than 10 may be carried on board a GTA bomber at any given time, unless pilot is granted a special permit by an appropriate governing body.
GTM-N1 Harbinger
Fusion bomb surrounded by 3 salted fission bombs - propulsion unit is a half-size version of a regulation GTA fighter thruster (Class II) - given the weight of the payloads, the missile is slow despite the power of the thruster - as the Harbinger is exceptionally large, GTA bombers are limited to carrying 6 of these weapons at any given time - the resultant shock wave from this weapon is potentially deadly, due to the size of the payloads (5000 Mt in total) - use near allied installations or allied ship groupings is strongly discouraged by the GTA - most effective when used in preemptive defensive strike against non-military installations.
And that's just from FS1. Here's a bit from the FS2 WEAPONS.TBL:
FS2 weapons:
GTM-12 Cyclops
...Its payload is approximately fifty percent greater than that of the older Tsunami warheads.
GTM-13 Helios
...The most powerful warhead in the fleet's arsenal, the Helios generates a massive shockwave from the cataclysmic annihilation of matter and anti-matter...
Now, with all that, plus beam cannons, it's not surprising that capital ships can get wiped out so easily. Just imagine a "standard" nuclear bomb hitting an aircraft carrier of today. What would be left? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 08-03-2001).]
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Thankfully, there is a balance between the Super-Alpha1 syndrome and the opposite extreme of the player not having an effect on the battle.
The problem, as has come up often in this thread, is that if you have the BoE battles, there is no defensible reason not to have absolutely no reason not to have hundreds of fighters flying in support, which will cause problems for the engine. Think about it for a minute... if you have just two destroyers facing off, what possible reason would there be for their entire fighter complements not being launched? When a US Aircraft Carrier gets ready to smack something you better believe it puts up 100% of its fighter complement, leaving behind only the ones that just aren't going to be useful. For purposes of making realistic misssions that the player can play a pivotal role in, smaller battles are pretty much the way you have to go. if you have a BoE situation, then what needs to happen is that Alpha1 has mission requirements that he has to meet that don't nessecarily determine who wins or looses the battle. Surgical strikes against subsystems, weapons, and smaller ships, as well as protecting allied ships from bomber strikes are all good, especially under circumstances where there are plenty of other fighters around that are doing their own thing. In this instance, its simple enough just to use wings that don't accept player orders and have their own missions to run. Why should alpha wing be able to order around the bomber wings that are supposed to be taking out that cruiser and make them do something else?
slightly off topic, but in the similar vein of realism, I notice so frequently that situation where all the allied forces are destroyed/have left the battle, and there's an enemy ship that just sits there forever. How many of us have stayed behind to nuke some poor hapless shivan cap after a mission has actually ended just because we have trebs and there aren't any more scripted fighter wings helping it? If all the GTVA ships are gone, there's no reason for that moloch to sit there and take your beating. Make it jump out. I've gotten solo Demon and Ravana kills that way just by being patient and nuking something that can't fight back. Its just silly =P
So, in condensed form, this is what I think mission designers should keep in mind:
1: it is possible to make the player's role pivotal without making him responsible for winning the battle singlehanded. Destroying a key beam turret or protecting a key ship from attack is good.
2: Don't leave enemy ships hanging around after a mission has ended. It just looks messy =)
3: If you have multiple destroyers/lots of caps, remember that there should be lots of fighters to go with them. For every destroyer in a battle AT LEAST 50% of its maximum fighter/bomber complement should be in the battle or you should have a really good reason. (damaged/destroyed fighters, on missions somewhere else, etc). The exception to this obviously is when the mission shouldn't require more fighters then are actually present, but if the destroyer is in any danger of being destroyed, its fighters better be out there.
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I just re-checked... In nearly every capship-under-siege level the (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) guys neatly avoided having to give you reinforcements by damaging the fighterbay...
And anyway, yes, big nasty bombs. But when the rifle was invented, people didn't stay sitting around in easily-penetrated suits of armor, they built heavier protection and eventually came out with flak jackets. Countless examples are similar throughout history, and anyway, when it gets to the point where I can score massive damage w/ my primaries, it's jusrt ridiculous. Build some tougher capships, at least make it interesting!
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But remember, for every mission designer's guideline, there is another way to implement a mission that breaks that rule and represents the mission in a completely new way. It's true, I've seen it, but hell it takes a lot of work.
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Morris, I agree 100%
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Hmmm... Can you use .ani backgrounds? I was thiking, just having all the capships duke it out in back and savin the polys for lots of fighters... But generally lots of fighters ends up being 400 enemy fighters and you very fast if you try ordering your wingmen around... which is never fun...
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Originally posted by Nephilim:
That is beyond true, i mean in missions there you have to defend a destoryer, and there is only 3 other craft out there.... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) also what pissed me off the most is that mission where the colossus gets blasted by the sathanas, now i know they had a ton of bombers in that thing, why only launch dealta wing, i mean, 10 wings of bomber armed with helios, along with C's beams could have taken that sathanas out easy. but then i agin i do reamber sor some reason colossus stoped firing it's beams... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/mad.gif) i know the game has limitaions but still, a front line battle should really be, a front line battle (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
It just sat there because it was crippled. The fighterbays were a wreck, the engines down...etc.
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- Too lazy for a siggy at the moment -
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I'm guessing that with the Collossus, you were just there to reinforce it, but Command didn't want to tell you how bad it was. There is a mission out there somewhere that tells the story about how the Big C was disabled. The diversion at the Gamma Draconis node was already going on, and they pulled a couple of extra warships away from convoy duty to replace the ships in C's task force.
As for Slaying Ravana, Command didn't really expect you to kill the destroyer. They didn't even expect you to survive. Given how quickly the bomber wings get destroyed when the NTF or Shivans send them after whatever you have to protect, you were just the first wave. They expected you to damage the Ravana just enough so that it would withdraw, and then the remainder of the Delacroix's task force could regroup and kill it.
I love the .ani background idea, BTW.
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.ani weapons would be better. photon torpedo, anyone?
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ani don't work. neither for background, neither for weapons (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) Explosions and thrusters, that's it (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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Well, I personaly like like to flye missions where I make part of a team... you see, the team can't do the job without me, but I can't do the job without them... you see, makes me feel like I contribute for the cause...
of course I hate those missions when Alpha 1 is the goddamn GTVA slave.... and the hero!!! that simply sucks... for me, a good mission has to be one where everybody has an important role... and that's it... sometimes it is Alpha who takes out that destroyer, but Alpha can't do it without Beta watching its back, and the reverse of coure...
About those battle of Endor syndromes.... It's cool to have a fireworks battle (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif), but all fighter craft has a pivotal role in it, either is defending this ship/wing, or criple another ship... anything that keeps us ocupied...
YOU THINK FS AI IS DULL???? PLAY STARLANCER!!!!
And... that's all (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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I kinda got irritated at how I was such a big hero in so many of the latter missions (debrief voice: thanks to your valiant, (insert more suck-up, admiring, you are A-1 SUPAR comments here) efforts, you have once....heh, again....saved the GTVA....heh). You save the GTVA so many times yet went through the game as an unnamed hero. But the slight miss on the realism scale was a small price to pay, at least in my opinion.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Good point, that does boil down to the poly count, but why couldn't they make the capships themselves tougher? Save a lot of polys wasted on fighters and bombers...
I think you're missing the point of capital class ships entirely.
First, with small, portable, and (most importantly) realatively inexpensive weapons available (such as the Harbinger bomb, and other, more powererful ones found in FS2) it would be litteral suicide to use Capships in an entirely anti-shipping role. These things are expensive both in terms of dollars and in manpower, why risk one in a direct confrontation when you can send a handful of small, cheap bombers loaded with the aforementioned weapons to do your dirty work instead. See any WWII reference on 'Battle of the Coral Sea', 'Midway', or 'Guadalcanal' for realworld examples. Also take a peak at what happened to the real-world HMS Repulse and HMS Prince of Wales when they tried to hit Japanese shipping near China without aircover.
Now that we've eliminated the 'Battle-wagon' as a viable weapon of war, why even build them. As it has been stated so many times before, they really do suck in battle compared to the costs of building and maintaining them. To answer that lets stop and consider a fighter's limitations. First and foremost RANGE (and LOITER ABILITY). Even with fighter-mounted intersystem jumpdrives a fighter still has a very limited deployment range. Besides, our pilots have to LIVE somewhere. So we build giant hangers to fly them around in (aka Destroyers).
Destroyers are great, they can house thousands of personelle and maintain hundreds of fighters. But they can't be everywhere at once, and fighters can't really remain 'on-station' for long periods of time. So we build small ships that can house thier crews for extended voyages and keep an eye on things. If bad stuff shows up, all they need to do is call the nearest destroyer and *poof* a dozen fighters warp in, equipped with the latest death dealing hardware.
Corvettes I have a hard time figuring out, except that they can haul hardware that fighters can't, and thy're cheaper and better protected than cruisers. I guess they would work well as escorts as well, capable of moving around the Destroyer they are protecting to increase firepower in a local area. Anyone with anything to add on corvettes feel free to do so.
That's my thoughts on the whole capital ship controversy.
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Am I the only one her who wonders how the GTVA got such powerful weaponry in 32 years?
And why Alpha 1 is allowed to use it al just by being in the wing that destroyed a Ravana?
I liked FS1 so much better, in the missions like the one where you escort the Galatea through the asteroid feild, and there are shivans who cannot be seen on sensors... You can either chose to leave Alpha 2 to fight them, and you deal with the asteroids, which eventually pummel the ship to critical, or fight the bastards, and still have the ship go to critical, or worse...
I think that in FS2 they were more interested in giving you hella fast ships, and hella powerful weapons. They lost grasp of the integrity of the story...
The shivans were not super powerful death machines bent on destroying our homeworlds, like they were in FS1...
In FS1, they set traps, ambushes, and the like... They blew up cargo containers when the Elysiums docked to them... They made fake cargo dumps to lure us out into the open, and then smash us with teir hella powerful weaponry...
They had an bloodlust. They wanted us dead. And they stopped at nothing. Once the Lucifer was destroyed, they continued attacking. Like a chicken with it's head cut off, but they still attacked...(I read that somewhere... forget where tho)
I miss the days of the Avenger Cannon. The slow and not-so powerful ships. The futile fleeing from the shivan's dark grasp.
What happened to that? Huh?! What?! We get one dumbass in a custom ship, who opens a portal to 'Shivan infested space', like he knew for sure Shivans were there... And then he sends some stupid signal to them.
Then they kidnap him?! WTF? I mean c'mon... What the hell would they want with him? He was the G.W. Bush of the GTVA...(It'll happen soon, watch...)
And why would the shivans ignore us this time around? Us and our 'Flying Ray gun' the colossus... What a hunk of scrap that was... A waste of 20 years... If you ever want to blame the Vasudans for something, blame them for that... Stupid ship...
Koth was gonna ram it (Which would have killed it), but alpha 1 saves the day, and disables the sucker...(Or atleast I did) and I had to sit there for 20 minutes listening to the Coll tell it's decks to close off... I finally entered the cheat and killed the Orion, only because I got tired of sitting there...
What the... what the hell was the original subject of this topic anyway...?! Ah spoot! I went OT again... crap!
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Sie ist der hellste Stern von allen, und wird nie vom Himmel fallen.
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
What the... what the hell was the original subject of this topic anyway...?! Ah spoot! I went OT again... crap!
No comment. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
I liked FS1 so much better,
[snip]
I think that in FS2 they were more interested in giving you hella fast ships, and hella powerful weapons. They lost grasp of the integrity of the story...
Ranting aside, I have to agree with Raa. FS1 captivated and held my attention far better than FS2 ever could. The missions were far more beleivable, the enemy was dark and enigmatic, the ships you were in were outclassed (everywhere except subspace! Shivans do ohh soo poorly once you take away thier shields).
I finished FS1 within a week, most of that on the last two nights of that week. Each mission made me want to see more, I wanted to see where they were heading with this. The beloved Galatea gets nuked, Vasuda prime is leveled, but we keep fighting (the 'three jumpoints' scenario, one of my favorite missions ever). The story didn't revolve around Alpha 1, but he was very much a part of it. There wasn't a single trace of 'Wingcommander' syndrome to be found...
Then they made FS2, and like a child greedy for more, I raced out and laid out 50 bucks (US) for the damn thing... and I haven't finished it yet. I got as far as Admiral nutball getting kidnapped, played one mission more and finally quit. It seemed that in FS2 all they were interested in was giving the player more toys to play with and puff up his ego in one 'Startrek' movie mission after another. I haven't been this dissapointed with a sequel since... ever. To be honest, FS2 bored me. I've been far more interested in most people's mods of it than the actual game.
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
Ah spoot! I went OT again... crap!
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Jon, very well said, I can't help but see, in this light, that you have a very very valid point of view - I think a lot of it was the desperation of being right next to the core populated systems and afraid of the Shivans.
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lol raa tof'h, I just sat down to watch the colo get ramed the first time I played the mission. It is not rammed (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) Koth death is scripted I suppose...
About the shivans not wanting our destruction or bosh stuff, I don't know what Volition wanted to do, so I can't criticize that (in fact I kindda liked it, for once humans feel a little dumb at the end: "heh! you forgot me!" we're not the center of the universe and that's not that bad)
For the feeling, now, you're right. In FS1 (at the begining, coz at the end nothing could stand before my herc or my valk), shivans were frightening, in fs2 they were cannon fodder.
oh, one thing I loved in FS1 was the last mission, for once, we don't have to kill the lucifer, yeah! You can't imagine how happy I was when I was expecting to fly a dumb bomber for the last mission of the game...
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Yes, I must say that FS1 was FAR more credible and interesting in story and such than FS2.... The only good thing that I can forward in FS2 is the fireworks that beams make (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
FS1 was GREAT... right from the intro were we could see poor Lt. Ash running away and shouting "...they weren't goddamn ******* vasudans!!! They were these death black ships!!!!!! I know they are following me!"... but they were'nt folowing him 'cause the big L jumped in front of him (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Now, frankly, FS1 had that spirit of rush, enigma and inferiority that FS2 couldn't ever had... shame... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Not even the Sath's scared me like the poor Scorpions did.... And of course, in FS1 we contributed for something, but we weren't GTA's BIG BOY SUPER-ACE HERO!!!!
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Yeah, I couldn't really understand how so many pilots could die while fighting the Shivans because, as stated above, the Shivees' fighters were really just cannon fodder, even on Medium or Hard. Just about the only advantage they had over the GTVA's craft were numbers, and when it comes to Alpha 1 against the odds, the player usually prevails for some reason. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) Anyways, the only time I got the feeling of the Shivans being utter destroyers or a xenophobic species to the extreme was when I looked at their capships or saw them take down one or our capships, because their fighters just didn't give you the feeling of fear or lethal superiority they did in FreeSpace 1.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
ani don't work. neither for background, neither for weapons (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif) Explosions and thrusters, that's it (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Hmmm, couldn't you model a LARGE (I mean REALLY large) plane, paint the surface with your ANI, and then place the object a LONG distance away? (I mean the plane would have to be REALLY, REALLY big).
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Originally posted by Raven2001:
Yes, I must say that FS1 was FAR more credible and interesting in story and such than FS2.... The only good thing that I can forward in FS2 is the fireworks that beams make (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Heheh, that's true. Flak, beams, nebulae; the FS2 engine just added so much more to FS. And the infamous Big Damage™ tag! That surely added a new depth into gameplay, you could no longer tape down the fire button on your ML-16 and come back a few hours later to a debris field. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) But this is why the FS1->FS2 conversion would be so cool - it would take all the cool story, atmosphere and mood bits from FS1 and put them into the 0wning engine of FS2. Booyah. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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But this is why the FS1->FS2 conversion would be so cool - it would take all the cool story, atmosphere and mood bits from FS1 and put them into the 0wning engine of FS2. Booyah. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)[/B]
NOW you're cooking with gas! Who are the people working on this project? Or am I speaking with thier mighty god already (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
One thing though, although we all agree that the campaign in FS was cool as hell it has one insurmountable problem... We've all done it already (some of us more than once (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)).
Maybe some minor adjustments? I had an idea for an FS1 campaign that parralelled the main FS campaign, but it was from the point of view of the fifth fleet, not the third (aka the players were going to be stationed on the GTD Intrepid instead of the GTD Galatea). The end of the story was a bit of a bummer (from what I can tell the Intrepid went down with all hands defending Vasuda Prime) but I had some neat missions planned (McCarthy after all was from the Intrepid, and it was fighters off of the Intrepid that recovered the Shivan shield technology AND staged the phoney convoy to draw the Shivans away from the real one (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)) Never finished it though (while doing online research into the full timeling of Freespace I bumped into the Freespace developer's network, discovered this intruiging set of files called the Freespace SDK and the rest is history!) If anyone's interested I might be persuaded to remake the campaign for FS2 standard for the FS1->FS2 people. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
Hmmm, couldn't you model a LARGE (I mean REALLY large) plane, paint the surface with your ANI, and then place the object a LONG distance away? (I mean the plane would have to be REALLY, REALLY big).
No, as I said there's you have only ani for explosions and thrusters (and the warp ani, forgot this one). You can't give any to anything else. the only object you can have with an ani is basically a model mapped with the thruster ani (tho it could make some nice effects if done well, I have several ideas but I can't make thrusters to work so...)
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What the game needs is a dynamic campaign, like in falcon 4.0.
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Originally posted by YodaSean:
What the game needs is a dynamic campaign, like in falcon 4.0.
? Never played that one; explain.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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There was someone that was converting the FS1 campaign to FS2... can't remember who though... also, another good campaign would be about operation tresher, that hapens right before the FS1 camp
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Originally posted by sandwich:
? Never played that one; explain.
[/b]
something I put in the FS3 wishlist too ('oh)
In FS2 that would be like this: you have a map of the nodes, you have your GTA fleets everywhere on it, each wing in each fleet has assigned missions, you pick the one that interest you (scout, strike...), you chosse your way (which jumpnode you'll follow and so on).
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
NOW you're cooking with gas! Who are the people working on this project? Or am I speaking with thier mighty god already (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
Heh, but seriously - IIRC, there was someone from FS2 Sector working on it at one stage, but F2S, Hunter, and pretty much all of the people there have more or less disappeared off the face of the planet since a few months ago. We could always try resurrecting it.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
In FS2 that would be like this: you have a map of the nodes, you have your GTA fleets everywhere on it, each wing in each fleet has assigned missions, you pick the one that interest you (scout, strike...), you chosse your way (which jumpnode you'll follow and so on).
Frankly, I rather have fun than do that (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif). Really, how does that convey the story of Freespace? All it does is turn a game into a simulation, and if you hadn't noticed, FS is not about simulation, its about fun.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Raven2001:
They were these death black ships!!!!!!
Hmm... and you think they were Shivan?
Interesting.
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RECIPROCITY ("http://uk.geocities.com/gunnery_control/index.html")
(No-one lives forever)
[email protected]
ICQ: 119819902
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? Never played that one; explain.
[/quote]
The computer would make a bunch of missions depending on how the over all battle was going. It was also fought in real-time, and you could choose not to do some missions so you could see how the battle worked out. When you started a mission you would usually be in the middle of a much larger battle.
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Sort of like the campaigns in Emperor: Battle for Dune, then? Hmmm, could be done in FS2. Just at the end of every mission have the pilot press 1 to go after the ship that escaped, press 2 to investigate the distress signal, press 3 to return to base, etc.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Frankly, I rather have fun than do that (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif). Really, how does that convey the story of Freespace? All it does is turn a game into a simulation, and if you hadn't noticed, FS is not about simulation, its about fun.
why would that kill fun? I don't get you. For the story, it should be like IW2. At fixed moments, you have scripted events and missions you can't avoid.
And why choosing the mission would turn FS2 into a simulation? <<
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Sorry, this is a little off-topic, but...
Is there any interest in porting over the FS1 campaign to FreeSpace 2? With or without some major/minor modifications and tweaking?
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Yes. That would be very cool. If you could modify the missions slightly you could probably put beams in too.
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Originally posted by YodaSean:
Yes. That would be very cool.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by YodaSean:
Yes. That would be very cool. If you could modify the missions slightly you could probably put beams in too.
That would be cool, but with only one type of beam: Lucifer's one. I really want to see the FS1 (exact) campaign in FS2, with the improved gfx and so on. BTW, what about command briefings, speeches and so on, would that be difficult to put in FS2?
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Originally posted by venom2506:
BTW, what about command briefings, speeches and so on, would that be difficult to put in FS2?
All that stuff should be easy as pie. As far as I know, the command briefing ANI format didn't change from FS1 to FS2 (actually, now that I think of it, they are at different resolutions - FS1 ANI's are square-ish, while the FS2 ANI's are "wide-screen"... hmmm). Voice is no prob, though. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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I didn't say chosing missions wouldn't be fun. I said doing it the way stated is not fun. I don't want to have to plan routes, pick pilots, crap like that. I just want to fly the mission and kill lots and lots of Shivans. Is that so much to ask?
There is a very delicate balance of fun and simulation in FS as is, and probably should be left that way. I'm also violently against seeing canopy struts.
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Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
I just want to fly the mission and kill lots and lots of Shivans. Is that so much to ask?
Well, in general, no, but the thing is that it's been done more than enough times, and people are trying to find new ways to make the game fun.
Originally posted by Eishtmo:
I'm also violently against seeing canopy struts.
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
All that stuff should be easy as pie. As far as I know, the command briefing ANI format didn't change from FS1 to FS2 (actually, now that I think of it, they are at different resolutions - FS1 ANI's are square-ish, while the FS2 ANI's are "wide-screen"... hmmm). Voice is no prob, though. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
The .ani format hasn't changed a bit. As sandwich noted, the size and shape of the FS1 command briefs is a bit different than that of the FS2 animations, but I've already tried it out and they work without a problem. Ditto for the FS1 briefings, debriefings, in-mission voice overs - they can all be ported over without a hitch. The cool thing is that those of us who have FS1 and a tiny bit of expertise with VPVIEW would never have to download a big 30MB+ package of FS1 command briefs or sound files.
For that matter, porting the entire FS1 game over to FS2 wouldn't require too much technical knowledge at all. Converting FS1 missions over to FreeSpace 2 involves the simple matter of extracting them from the proper .vp file and changing their extension to .fs2. Sure, they won't have any background to speak of, some of the briefing icons will be out of place, and there won't be any flashy beams, but those would be easy matters to "correct", assuming we'd want to edit the mission in the first place. In theory, even the menu and main hall graphics could be carried over, although that'd be a slightly bigger task. Still, imagine playing FS1 with the FS2 music. Or...if you're one of those really oldskool types, playing FS1 with the FS1 music in FS2. Okay, so that sort of defeats the original purpose (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif), but I'm just spewing ideas here.
If only we had enough determination to get such a project done...
*cough*
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Have you actually tried renaming a .FSM file to .FS2 and seeing that it works? Cause if it's that easy...
But what about the campaign file? Does that one work with just a rename, or does it need a manual re-doing?
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Setekh:
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
We could always try resurrecting it.
I'm there dude! I'm kept a bit busy with my own project right now (Starfighter:Final days conversion. Evaluate the demo now available at http://www.homestead.com/jskgames/home.html ("http://www.homestead.com/jskgames/home.html") :lol (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif), but it SHOULD be about wrapped up by christmas (I hope, or at least in such a state that I can hand it over to my staff and have them finish it).
Do we want to use the original FS campaign, or do you want to use my idea for the GTD Intrepid campaign (could always do both I guess).
...And there is no way in hell ANY Galactic Terran or Parlimentary Vasudan ship is going to have beams or freakin' flak. If we do this lets do it right and remain true to the time period (but at least we'll be able to properly model the Lucifer's beam cannons!)
Might this warrent its own forum I wonder? (if we can get a staff together that is...)
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I think this would be a neat project for the HLP community to do. Replicate the FS1 campaign as accurately as possible, with Lucy having her beams. Take advantage of the nebulae backgrounds from FS2. If there are any missions in FS1 that occur in a system that FS2 has a mission for, copy the nebulae from FS2.
BTW, jonskowitz - I was born in Spokane. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Originally posted by sandwich:
I was born in Spokane. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
And I lived there once.
------------------
Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Actually, even though I was born there, my family moved down to Florida 4 months later and I've never been there since, so I have no _idea_ what it's like... *shrugs*
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Ooooooh, so there is interest in this.
sandwich, yes I have renamed a .fsm file to .fs2 and it works perfectly. You'll need VPVIEW to "decode" the .fsm file while extracting it from the proper .vp, but that doesn't take more than a few seconds. Once you've got it in .fs2 format, you can play it just like any regular mission. Since FreeSpace 2 backgrounds are done in a drastically different manner than those in FreeSpace 1, the converted missions will initially lack a background. Additionally, the briefing icons in the two games are considerably different as well (different icons for each species in FS2), but this is also simple to change. Finally, all the ships that are in FS1 but not in FS2 get changed to the default ship - the Ulysses. Changing back to their true FS1 form is a simple as installing the FS1 ships into FS2. I belive there's a MOD to do this around here, and if not, it wouldn't be very hard to correct either.
General Consensus Needed:
If such a project was to be undertaken, what would everyone like to see in it? Would you like a direct port from FS1 to FS2, with FS1 ships, weapons, music, and pretty much everything else? Or would just rather have the FS1 missions simply be converted to FS2 format for more of a "The Great War in 2362" playing experience? Or do you have a radically different idea from those listed here and in other posts?
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Dunno... I nefer played FS1, so I'd like versimilitude, but others would probably be sick of the original...
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Originally posted by Slasher:
...Finally, all the ships that are in FS1 but not in FS2 get changed to the default ship - the Ulysses...
...Would you like a direct port from FS1 to FS2, with FS1 ships, weapons, music, and pretty much everything else? ...
As long as there are no instances where I have to escort the Ulysses-class GTD Galatea through an asteroid field, ( (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)) I think that I'd prefer to see a true-to-the-original port.
On that thought, it could even be portrayed as simply a simulation of how it was like to fight in the Great War for pilots of the FS2 era.
Slasher, have you tried to get FS2 to play FS1 .MVE's?
------------------
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Originally posted by Slasher:
a direct port from FS1 to FS2, with FS1 ships, weapons, music, and pretty much everything else
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Originally posted by Slasher:
General Consensus Needed:
If such a project was to be undertaken, what would everyone like to see in it? Would you like a direct port from FS1 to FS2, with FS1 ships, weapons, music, and pretty much everything else? Or would just rather have the FS1 missions simply be converted to FS2 format for more of a "The Great War in 2362" playing experience? Or do you have a radically different idea from those listed here and in other posts?
Yeh, I'd go for basically taking everything from FS1. It'll avoid some quibbles further on for people who were disappointed 'I didn't see this, aaah!' - but put in all the bells and whistles of the FS2 engine, like beams and stuff. That might require re-balancing of lots of stuff (like capship battling, which will take on an entire new dimension). That'll be a job in itself (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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I think a total convert would be fine. No beams, no flak, and no shields (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif).
------------------
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Setekh:
...but put in all the bells and whistles of the FS2 engine, like beams and stuff. That might require re-balancing of lots of stuff (like capship battling, which will take on an entire new dimension). That'll be a job in itself (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
Explain for us, if you will, just how you are expecting to call it FS1 if it has beams, hmmm? On the Lucy, yes (and only 2 main beams - no AAA junk or anything), but that should be it.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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sandwich:
I've never tried using the .mve files from FreeSpace 1 in FS2. BTW, I assume you're referring to the cutscenes, as those are the only .mve files I know of. I guess it depends a lot on whether or not the .mve file format has changed and how you could get FreeSpace 2 to read the .mves from a different location than the ones specified (cutscene.tbl, perhaps?)
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It seems as though there's a bit of a discrepancy surrounding how to port the original game over to the sequel. From my point of view, a direct port or conversion of the FS1 story and universe to FreeSpace 2 would entail the moving of FS1 ships into the sequel's table files, complete with models and textures, in addition to the mission editing. I don't think that'd be too hard, as I'm 99% sure there's already MODs out there for every FS1 ship to be made available in FS2. Converting weapons wouldn't be too difficult either, and we could even give them better graphical effects than those that are seen in FS1. Music and voice overs from the command briefs and debriefs would be no problem either.
A port of all the missions, and nothing more, would be slightly easier than the above method simply because it wouldn't involve converting any material except the missions. You could have FS2 ships, weapons, beams, flak, shields....whatever. Obviously this would destroy the true FS1 experience, however. Like I said above, it'd be more like "The Great War in 2367" (yes, I know I said 2362. SMACK me or something). And, as Setekh noted, many of the missions would have to be retailored because of the gameplay implications beams add.
So, let's refine the details a little. What specifically would you like to see in it? Should we do our aboslute best to recreate the FS1 atmosphere, complete with menu and main hall graphics and other FreeSpace 1 execlusives? Or should we ignore that route and modify the original FreeSpace 1 missions would beam weapons, flak, Maras and Herc IIs?
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I'm for the true-to-the-original version. But that's just me. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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I think I'm getting waaaay ahead of myself here. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) Does everyone think there would be enough people to help out with something like this? Some sort of organization obviously needs to take place here for a conversion to work.
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Explain for us, if you will, just how you are expecting to call it FS1 if it has beams, hmmm? On the Lucy, yes (and only 2 main beams - no AAA junk or anything), but that should be it.
Well, beams and flak are basically the main elements of FS2 that are improved in terms of engine. I thought it would be nifty to implement them - I would like to experience FS1 like that. But then again, it comes down to taste again. If I want it without flak and beams, I'll go play the real FS1 with my D3D hacks. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Setekh:
Well, beams and flak are basically the main elements of FS2 that are improved in terms of engine. I thought it would be nifty to implement them - I would like to experience FS1 like that. But then again, it comes down to taste again. If I want it without flak and beams, I'll go play the real FS1 with my D3D hacks. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
It would be nifty to implement them, true. But it would also take much more work than people here are willing to put into this, I'm sure. Besides, part of the the reason why FS1 was so cool was because of our technological inferiority. For half the game we didn't even have fighter shields! How the heck would you explain beams?
Flak, on the other hand, I would be willing to concede to. It's not some super-advanced tech that we would have no reasonable way to have - it's a Brit invention, after all. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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FS1, definitively. If someone wants beams and flaks, well, he can make another version from the original FS1 campaign.
I want to fly my Valkyrie again!!!
(and I want sushi to make a specific version of the velocity mod for this cmapiagn, coz the FS1 campaign was so damn fun with the velo mod (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) )
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It sounds like the majority (who aren't lurking anyway (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) ) are for a 'true' version of FS1 (sans beams and flak). I don't think yo uhave to worry too much about the 'FS1 with a facelift' problemb steaks, the AI is way smarter in FS2 and the missiles are far more accurate than in FS1.
I know it will play differently (hell, it'll be a lot harder than the origional) because I'm still converting my 'Starfighter' MOD (no link this time, it's on enough other topics (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif) ) to FS2. My first attempt (using identical gameplay statistics for ships, weapons, and AI) was an unmitigated disaster! I'm still tweaking with my tables in some desparate attempt to make the thing playable (with no shields in the game you really need to be careful with play balance!).
Besides, I've seen a few people comment that they've never played the origional. With copies of the old game becoming scarcer why don't we show'em what they missed!
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Sounds like people are leaning towards the pure FS1 port. I'd have to agree that if we added beams it could drastically alter or destroy the balance in some, but not all, of the missions. Furthermore, if both sides were to have beams, the Shivans would lose their edge. I take it this means everyone wants FS1 ships, weapons, sounds, and music unedited, correct?
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Originally posted by Slasher:
...Furthermore, if both sides were to have beams, the Shivans would lose their edge. I take it this means everyone wants FS1 ships, weapons, sounds, and music unedited, correct?
It sounds like that's what most people want to see. It looks like the 'purists' are going to win this vote (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
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Originally posted by Slasher:
Furthermore, if both sides were to have beams, the Shivans would lose their edge.
Of course we could just give the Shivans the beams.
*Imagines the Bastion going up in smoke in Clash of the Titans*
Maybe not.
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Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
---------
I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Of course we could just give the Shivans the beams.
*Imagines the Bastion going up in smoke in Clash of the Titans*
Maybe not.
I think that was the idea, just model Lucy's beams.
We can always use SEXP to make certain the GTD Bastion escapes 'Clash of the Titans' intact (well, more or less) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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Gosh, it's been so long since I've played FS1 (and my memory is horible for that type of stuff anyway) that I have no recollection of what happens in Clash of the Titans. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/lol.gif)
I think that it would be neat if we spruced things up a wee bit, though. For example, we could recreate (or borrow, if someone's already made a hi-quality set of missions) Lt. Ash and his skirmish with the Vasudans, his flight to Station Riviera, and the destruction of that station by the Lucy. I think it would be neat to add-in a bunch of stuff like that wherever appropriate, but to leave the set missions as-is.
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Agreed
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Clash of the Titans was third to last mission in the game. The Lucifer had already jumped, so you had to chase it to the next node. So as you escort the Bastion, a Demon appears out of nowhere, and you have to cover the Bastion's escape. Which is why it would be a bad idea to SEXP the ships escape, since the whole point was keeping it alive in the first place.
If we add anything too it, it would be ideas from FS2. Squadron commanders would be a nice addition, but just one, I want loyalty for gods sake! There's a few missions between the Command Briefing cutscene and the assualt on the Taranis that we could probably slide in, as well as a few other such places. I don't think we should have the Ash missions though, in FS1 you were a rookie who joined up after Ash had his encounter.
There is one thing we could consider after the majority of the work is done. There were a lot of cutscenes that were in the original FS script that were cut for time. Perhaps we could rebuild those cutscenes as a bonus.
------------------
Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
---------
I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Clash of the Titans was third to last mission in the game. The Lucifer had already jumped, so you had to chase it to the next node. So as you escort the Bastion, a Demon appears out of nowhere, and you have to cover the Bastion's escape. Which is why it would be a bad idea to SEXP the ships escape, since the whole point was keeping it alive in the first place.
Clash of the Titans is also the first mission of Hidden terror ( you play it shivan side, of course).
I'm not for adding new missions to the campaign, anyway. But I've read about a project concerning an alternative campaign featuring events related during the main campaign, but which didn't involve the player. Why not making a second campaign out of this?
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
Clash of the Titans was third to last mission in the game. The Lucifer had already jumped, so you had to chase it to the next node. So as you escort the Bastion, a Demon appears out of nowhere, and you have to cover the Bastion's escape. Which is why it would be a bad idea to SEXP the ships escape, since the whole point was keeping it alive in the first place.
You're right, but since the Demons were never depicted as having beam weapons then thre should be no balance issues with giving Lucy hers.
There is one thing we could consider after the majority of the work is done. There were a lot of cutscenes that were in the original FS script that were cut for time. Perhaps we could rebuild those cutscenes as a bonus.
Now you're talking about some serious work, as well as the perfect justification to the project... It would also make the 'Command Briefing' cutscene seem less out of place.
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I agre I hate being the supah dupah ultra mega monolithitch super hero
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
There is one thing we could consider after the majority of the work is done. There were a lot of cutscenes that were in the original FS script that were cut for time. Perhaps we could rebuild those cutscenes as a bonus.
What cutscenes were those? And where?
------------------
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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He's reffering to the 'Freespace Reference Bible'. You can find it on the Descent Developer's Network (I think...)
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They're in the Freespace Reference Bible. They include the following:
Several cutscenes in a bar (including a bar fight, I believe).
GNN news scenes.
Terran and Vasudans reps meeting to discuss peace.
The destruction of Tombaugh Station.
Command brief, talks about the Lucifer and the likelyhood of finding Earth.
Welcome aboard the Bastion Command Brief.
Command brief, discovering the Ancients (basically the Command Briefing of the same idea).
Lucifer wastes Earth (alt finale).
There's like three bar scenes, and the news ones were latched on to a bunch of the others. And it would be a buttload of work, but if it could be done, it would truly be great.
------------------
Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
---------
I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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What's the URL?
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there's pics of those cutscenes at the descent network
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Originally posted by Unidan:
What's the URL?
...of the FS2 Reference Bible. Anyone?
------------------
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Found it! It's at
http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/downloads.cfm ("http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/downloads.cfm")
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Downloading now. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
Material Defender Studios ("http://www.mdstudios.f2s.com/index.html")
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Originally posted by Eishtmo:
They're in the Freespace Reference Bible. They include the following:
Several cutscenes in a bar (including a bar fight, I believe).
GNN news scenes.
Terran and Vasudans reps meeting to discuss peace.
The destruction of Tombaugh Station.
Command brief, talks about the Lucifer and the likelyhood of finding Earth.
Welcome aboard the Bastion Command Brief.
Command brief, discovering the Ancients (basically the Command Briefing of the same idea).
Lucifer wastes Earth (alt finale).
Yeah, I read the scripts for those in the Reference Bible. Highly cool. Especially the destruction of Tombaugh, that would be Hella sweet.
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Don't I know it. I even named that destroyer. It's the Reliant in my Great War story.
------------------
Visit Warpstorm. ("http://www.warpstorm.com") Do it now.
---------
I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
-
Arriving late, here's my $0.02. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
I think that a purist version of FS1 is the best, at least in terms of ships and weapons. I'm not so bothered about interfece art etc, but it would be cool to see.
However, that won't exactly be difficult, so I think that the main campaign could either be expanded upon, or other events of the Great War presented in other campaigns. These might include the Intrepid's journey, Operation Thresher, what happened to the Bastion before you joined it, etc.
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Idea:
Why not convert all the shivan fighters and bombers for player use and play the main FS1 campaign as a shivan.
Or the same but then whit the FS2 main campaign.
How does that sound?
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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all shivan fighters are already converted. remember HT?
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Originally posted by Slasher:
The .ani format hasn't changed a bit. As sandwich noted, the size and shape of the FS1 command briefs is a bit different than that of the FS2 animations, but I've already tried it out and they work without a problem. Ditto for the FS1 briefings, debriefings, in-mission voice overs - they can all be ported over without a hitch. The cool thing is that those of us who have FS1 and a tiny bit of expertise with VPVIEW would never have to download a big 30MB+ package of FS1 command briefs or sound files.
For that matter, porting the entire FS1 game over to FS2 wouldn't require too much technical knowledge at all. Converting FS1 missions over to FreeSpace 2 involves the simple matter of extracting them from the proper .vp file and changing their extension to .fs2. Sure, they won't have any background to speak of, some of the briefing icons will be out of place, and there won't be any flashy beams, but those would be easy matters to "correct", assuming we'd want to edit the mission in the first place. In theory, even the menu and main hall graphics could be carried over, although that'd be a slightly bigger task. Still, imagine playing FS1 with the FS2 music. Or...if you're one of those really oldskool types, playing FS1 with the FS1 music in FS2. Okay, so that sort of defeats the original purpose (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif), but I'm just spewing ideas here.
If only we had enough determination to get such a project done...
*cough*
For the people THAT don't have FS1 need to d/l a 30mb+ package,or make 2 package's one for the people that have FS1 and one that don't have FS1.
Do you need to make the FS1 ani files wider or can you just poor them over like they are?
I can convert Every FS1 ship to FS2 whitout any problems.I think this would be great to do.
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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I hate to ask that, but would that be legal to put all that stuff (music, ani, basically all the art part of FS1, just the code is left) for download?
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Guys i have the entire FS1 main hall, sounds, HUD objects, loadining menus, and cursors imported into fs2. I have resedigned all 150 megs of pcx interface menu screens to a new form. Its all for my prequel campaigns that take place between FS1 and FS2
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Originally posted by venom2506:
I hate to ask that, but would that be legal to put all that stuff (music, ani, basically all the art part of FS1, just the code is left) for download?
You got a good point there.Iam going to mail (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) about this.
Originally posted by Red5:
Guys i have the entire FS1 main hall, sounds, HUD objects, loadining menus, and cursors imported into fs2. I have resedigned all 150 megs of pcx interface menu screens to a new form. Its all for my prequel campaigns that take place between FS1 and FS2
there is just one thing you didn't think of and that is you didn't d/l the files.BUT when you are done whit it and put it up for D/L then it still will be ilegal.
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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Very good point...
Is it illegal to download Volition based Art and concepts from FS1? I believe it is very legal. For years now several FS1 models have been out for download into FS2, Volition corporate has not given any other comment other than good job to these so called perpetrators. The actual art work itself is not copyrighted, nor is the greek names used throughout the game. I solemnly believe that these files are free for the pleasing as long as people own the original game. I will consider posting a warning statment saying you must own both FS1 and FS2 before downloading my campaign, perhaps that legal tidbit will save my rear? whadda ya guys think?? is it illegal?
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I seriously doubt it. An abundant amount of FreeSpace 1 material can be found on the web, including missions, ships, textures, sounds, and the music tracks. Neither Volition nor Interplay have squeaked on the matter as far as I've heard. Still, it might be wise to email V before proceeding. Just in case.
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Well, when the conversion of the game models to 3ds is complete, I could take a crack at doing those cutscenes.
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
Material Defender Studios ("http://www.mdstudios.f2s.com/index.html")
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Originally posted by Slasher:
I seriously doubt it. An abundant amount of FreeSpace 1 material can be found on the web, including missions, ships, textures, sounds, and the music tracks. Neither Volition nor Interplay have squeaked on the matter as far as I've heard. Still, it might be wise to email V before proceeding. Just in case.
Look in my post above i have mailed (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) about this (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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I got a repley from Adam Pletcher read B!tches (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
1.Would it be legal to put the conversion up for D/L?
I'm almost certain this would not be legal. It would essentially be
offering FS2 content to people that haven't paid for that product.
2.The FS1 .ani files are 200x150.But the FS2 ani files are
wider do they
need to be resized,in order to view them corectly?And would
there be any
quality loss if you resized them?
Yes, you would have to resize them. You would lose some quality, sure, but
it depends on how it was scaled.
3.Can the FS1 missions be saved as a .FS2 file whit out Fred2
errors? like
unknown ships.
I doubt it. The formats differ in many ways, not just what ships they name.
4.If this is legal to put up FS1 cutscene's up for D/L? (Doubt it)
Definitely not.
- Adam
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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Allow me to be the first to say: bummer. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
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"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar ("http://michael.randelman.com"), the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
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Hey, we could always have our local coding b!tch write up an executable that copies the cutscenes, ani's, etc... to the HD. That would solve the problem of not having to download them. All you'd have to do is put up a notice saying that it requires the original Freespace game.
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"You know you've played Freespace too much when you're driving along trying to use countermeasures to shake off pursuing highway police." - Top Gun
Material Defender Studios ("http://www.mdstudios.f2s.com/index.html")
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Originally posted by MD-2389:
Hey, we could always have our local coding b!tch write up an executable that copies the cutscenes, ani's, etc... to the HD. That would solve the problem of not having to download them. All you'd have to do is put up a notice saying that it requires the original Freespace game.
yup. And has we resize the anis, those files can still be out for d/l ( modified stuff, no pb)
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Oh, be nice to (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) ... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/hammer.gif)
They might be nice to you!!!! (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Neon? do you lack a pair of brains and eye's?
They are nice to (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/v.gif) they only try to make it legal in such a way that they wouldn't have to go to jail (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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[email protected] Staff member of
SOC Inferno,
can you defeat
the shivans?
Soc Inferno
Project Rebellion ("http://www.avengershome.co.uk/rebellionhtml/")
Gost of the past ("http://www.gotp.f2s.com/")
iqc 102628858
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Originally posted by sandwich:
Allow me to be the first to say: bummer. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)
Let me be the second... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/frown.gif)