Author Topic: Thoughts about Alpha 1  (Read 21230 times)

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Offline Sandwich

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Thoughts about Alpha 1
Ok, I know that for a mission to be engaging, fun, challenging, etc. it needs to essentially be a mission where Alpha 1 has a fairly large effect on the outcome - or at least that's the generally accepted view.

Well, personally, I'm sick of it. I know that the whole point of making a mission is so that the player can enjoy him/herself, but whatever happened to a slight streak of realism?

I've encountered a number of reviews slamming the last mission in the main campaign for the fact that Alpha 1 can simply stay inside the jump node until the signal is given, and the mission will still have been considered a success. "The player should be given not only the privelege but the responsibility to decide the outcome of the mission" they say. Heck with that, I say.

It's thinking like that that contribute to the creation of missions where towards the end, the only ships left flying are Alpha 1 and 14 wings of enemies. Go, Super-Ace Alpha One!!   Gimme a break.

Now don't get me wrong - I'm not going to say that a certain mission sucks just because it relies on Alpha 1 for a critical goal. But when that same reliance keeps on repeating itself throughout whole campaigns, it gets ridiculous. I appreciated very much those Derelict/Warzone missions (can't remember which campaign they were in...) where you had to fly around planting nav markers. Why? Because they had that part where you were in hibernation or whatever and your buddies were doing the work for a bit. Nice touch.

I would love to see more missions where, instead of hearing Command saying: "Alpha 1, we need you to take out the main guns on that cruiser before it rips through our convoy!", you hear "New cruiser in the area! Gamma wing, disarm it ASAP!"

Or perhaps a "large"-scale capital ship battle (no, not BOES*) where the only contribution you make to the battle would be to shoot that Shivan of Alpha 2's back. Poor guy always gets blasted to bits 'cause Gung-Ho Alpha One is out disarming the Shivan Armada.  

So, I leave you with these thoughts, and a question: What is your take on all this?

Note: I have a feeling that I came across as more "anti-Alpha One" than I really am... oh well.

* Battle of Endor Syndrome

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[This message has been edited by sandwich (edited 07-27-2001).]
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Taristin

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Hillarious! But oh so true. I hate those missions. You know which. "Alpha 1! The beams on that cruiser have an effective range of 3000 meters! Disable it before the convoy is in range!"

I wondered what happened to the rest of the wings also. I doubt that my GTF Hercules has a special channel for  Allied Command to only talk to me. I want to see missions where other wings are given orders, and you hear them.

Also. I hate this trend of the 'GTVA-Super-Strong-We-Always-Win!' missions. What happened to the Shivans Technological Superiority? What happened to the Rebels element of surprise? Why didn't the Shivans use self-destructing cargo containers in FS2?

All questions I'd like to see answered. I hate how theres a mission where the 'GTD Bonzai' is entering Shivan space with a wing of Myrms as escort, and suddenly, when they encounter the first threat, usually the 'SD Bielzabob', 4 wings of Ursas, 2 wings of Zeus, and 3 wings of Herc II's come out of nowhere, and save the day.

I want a realistic mission. One that reminisces of FS1, where the Shivans were the great Destroyers, Where the GTA and PVN were not Kayser-weilding Killing machines. What happened to Technologically Inferior?

Ok, Rant over...  
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Offline Alikchi

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*clapclapclapclapclapclapclapclap*
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Offline Stryke 9

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[WARNING, PIMP ALERT]
Well, yeah, there really shold be more missions where Alpha wing has to, say, escort a bomber wing in, or distract enemy fighters while the other guys go in and kick *** . Not too much, because being in backstage all the time blows, but once in a while. There should, however, be MORE interactivity if anything- I want a mission where I can choose to screw the GTVA/whoever and join the other side while playing, not just those damned loop missions. I'm working on putting a system like this in Left Behind, and altough it only sometimes works, it's pretty cool- you can even join arguments between your wingmen in one mission.

As for the Shivans v. Terrans, it's pretty clear that the Shivans have always relied on kicking ***  the first hit, and not letting their victims adapt, Tey may not have developed new tech since the Ancients time. The Terrans, however did grow up, and stole all the Shivan tech. Well, I have a little something for both sides in LB...

Join the LB staff today!

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[This message has been edited by Stryke 9 (edited 07-27-2001).]

 

Offline Taristin

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Sorry, No p1mping tolerated in this serious discussion thread. You have violated shares act 23-09g-6.01b You shall be sent to Vega pending your trial.
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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
Sorry, No p1mping tolerated in this serious discussion thread. You have violated shares act 23-09g-6.01b You shall be sent to Vega pending your trial.

Damn   I wanted to pimp my campaign too...
Coz I want the FS1 feeling back in it  .
yeah, in FS1 (at least at the begining), the shivan were frightening. Bah, that's OT.
I agree at 100% with sandwich about the alpha1 issue. I like to hunt down fighters while Beta wing is destroying the lucifer engines... I always thought it wass ridiculous that, in fs2, if there was not alpha 1 (yep, only him), the colossus wouldn't have won against the first sathanas...
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Hmph. Come and get me! I have made up entire armies to defend my not-quite-half made campaign! Plus, I was pointing out that there is really a solution...

 

Offline Shrike

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How often does one pilot change the course of battle?  Normally, when they screw up and are at the wrong place, and see the enemies coming in from an unexpected direction.  
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Offline Setekh

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Very well thought out. And it's very true. Let's see you put it into SOpO (My acronym for SOC: Operation Otara) - I'll be ready to beta-test.  
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Offline Sushi

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I agree, for the most part. I think that in most missions, Alpha One should be able to swing the battle, without deciding completely on his own- for example, if Alpha One stayed out of the battle completely, where doing nothing will mean probable defeat but even being A-1 SUPARPILOT won't decide the battle by itself.

As for making the Shivans more powerful, that could be done as well.  

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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Shrike:
How often does one pilot change the course of battle?  Normally, when they screw up and are at the wrong place, and see the enemies coming in from an unexpected direction.

Pardon me, mon sieur (sp?), but I must run that through a "reality" translation:  

"How often does the same pilot completely determine the course of battle? Normally in Hollywood, there is always a so-very-predictable result of our super-hero Alpha 1 screwing up. Such as enemies who, without exception, sneak in a side door that Our Hero is pukeing on the other side of."

Sorry, couldn't resist...

And Setekh - just look at the beta: Mission 1 requires Alpha 1 to do some stuff (sign up and find out, all you curious people!) to prevet needless loss of GTVA forces in-mission. But the mission, aside from the first thing required of Alpha wing (which needs absolutely no "human-only" skill - the AI could accomplish it by themselves if they were told to), would run just fine without Our Hero doing much of anything.
Mission 2 - hehehe... talk about taking advantage of a human players abilities to the max!  
And mission 3, like 1, requires a small thing, best left to human judgement but accomplishable by the AI (again, if they were told to), and then Our Hero can sit back and take screenshots. Well, it's not that easy...  

The crux of the matter is in the AI. Face it: the AI sucks, especially for fighters/bombers. I mean, has anyone ever played Bearbaiting through and found that the wingmen actually managed to destroy one of the flak turrets? I haven't.  

It's really a shame that even though   added flak and AAA beams to the capital ships, they appearently left the fighter AI alone. In FS1, when an AI fighter was attacking a capital ship, the only threat was if the same shield quadrant was kept facing a turret that was pounding at it. But that wasn't much of a problem, since the AI never pulled an "Alpha 1" and stayed stationary relative to the target, blasting away. They would generally make passes on the ship and then veer off for another run.

But in FS2 that simply doesn't work. When I attack a capital ship that has the usual plethora of weaponry, I generally try to take out the AAA that covers the area I'm flying in. Then I might go for the flak, if it becomes a real nusiance. But not getting hit by AAA beams is critical. The AI couldn't care less. And that is where the problem lies.

If the AI has a Maxim mounted, and there's no fighters in the area, it should make use of the long range on the Maxim and pound away from a distance. Like Alpha One's all around the world.   But no, it has to fly close and get a taste of the anti-fighter defenses on the ship.  

So, with the problem being in the AI, I was looking in the AI.TBL. There's really not all that much in there, but I was wondering if anyone knew under which circumstances the "patience" and "courage" values come into play?

------------------
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Sushi:
As for making the Shivans more powerful, that could be done as well.  


That WILL be done, pilot.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Taristin

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Quote
Originally posted by sandwich:
So, with the problem being in the AI, I was looking in the AI.TBL. There's really not all that much in there, but I was wondering if anyone knew under which circumstances the "patience" and "courage" values come into play?



Something to keep in mind...*cough*QM*cough*
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Offline Stryke 9

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Dwarr?

Anyway, nothing really can be done about the AIs. In case you haven't noticed, AIs for al games are stupid as **** ... It's up to the mapmakers to make 'em look smart.

 

Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9:
Dwarr?

Anyway, nothing really can be done about the AIs. In case you haven't noticed, AIs for al games are stupid as **** ... It's up to the mapmakers to make 'em look smart.

I agree, but there are usually many tweaks that can be done to the AI in various games.



------------------
"He who laughs last thinks slowest."
"Just becase you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you."
"To err is human; to really screw up you need a computer."
Creator of the Sandvich Bar, the CapShip Turret Upgrade, the Complete FS2 Ship List and the System Backgrounds List (all available from the site)
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Sushi

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I case anyone didn't know already...

The AI improves as you ramp up the difficulty. I just started playing the campaign again on Insane, I was quite surprised and pleased when on a couple of  missions, my wingmen were getting as many kills as I was.

The biggest problem with the AI in the game is that it listens to the player too much. Given an order, they will follow that order right up until the moment they get creamed. The AI is pretty good tactically, but awful strategically.

So, to make more "Realistic" missions, make sure the AI have simple goals that don't change much in the game. A massive dogfight works fairly well, a surgical strike between capships doesn't.

As for the "patience" and "courage" that's for the AI dogfighting. Patience is willingness to wait for a good opportunity to strike, courage, as best I can tell, is how likely they will be to win a game of Laser Chicken.  

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Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Sushi:
I case anyone didn't know already...

The AI improves as you ramp up the difficulty. I just started playing the campaign again on Insane, I was quite surprised and pleased when on a couple of  missions, my wingmen were getting as many kills as I was.

The biggest problem with the AI in the game is that it listens to the player too much. Given an order, they will follow that order right up until the moment they get creamed. The AI is pretty good tactically, but awful strategically.

So, to make more "Realistic" missions, make sure the AI have simple goals that don't change much in the game. A massive dogfight works fairly well, a surgical strike between capships doesn't.

As for the "patience" and "courage" that's for the AI dogfighting. Patience is willingness to wait for a good opportunity to strike, courage, as best I can tell, is how likely they will be to win a game of Laser Chicken.  


Talk to that about freelancer people   they're envious of the FS AI, believe me  
for the fact they listen to you too much, can"t that be fixed by the priority rollup in fred?
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Arnav

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Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h:
...What happened to the Shivans Technological Superiority?...

And you expect me not to p1mp?


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Offline Stryke 9

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I dunno... When I play, I just have the AI cover me, and they manage not to die and kill most of the annoying baddies at the same time... There are things the AI is better at than others- in contrast there's the "destroy subsystem" command, aka the "fly around like dumb ****s, don't shoot, and crash right into the nearest AAA beam" command.

 

Offline Sushi

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Quote
Originally posted by venom2506:
Talk to that about freelancer people   they're envious of the FS AI, believe me  
for the fact they listen to you too much, can"t that be fixed by the priority rollup in fred?

No, it can't. FRED only lets you assign priorities up to 89, just so player orders will ALWAYS be able to take precedence.  


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Sushi's Freespace Zone-Future home of loads of cool stuff.