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Alright, if you don't know what the Great Darkness is, it's the thing that chases you when Ken tells you not to turn around.
It's quite interesting, and I think one of the biggest new questions raised by Universal Truth.
Question 1: What is it?
Its tech description and its name in FRED (thebrahmansrosethebrahmansfell) appears to imply it's a remnant of the Brahmans, the thing that killed them, or a direct result of their extinction. The cargo containers in Ken, which concern the Brahmans, are also important to consider. You may read what those say here (http://www.hard-light.net/wiki/index.php/Ken), in the Forces Involved list.
Question 2: how much of a threat is it?
It found an unprotected entity in the Nagari network ridiculously quickly. Noemi was there for about two minutes (Nagari time) before it found her. More than that, right after Ken says "Search the leviathan's jaws. I will prepare the way.", Noemi says "I can still feel that presence. Enormous. Malignant.". It was suggested on IRC that Noemi may have crossed some sort of threshold when that happened, moved beyond CASSANDRA, which attracted the Great Darkness's attention. If the Nagari network is a labyrinth like Ken suggests, is the GD its Minotaur?
Ken seems to have an idea of what it was, but refuses to discuss it. There are two questions Ken refuses to answer. The first is about the Great Darkness, and he tells you to think of something else. The second is about why the Shivans dont adapt/evolve more quickly. His answer: "You assume that thinking quickly and planning well is not itself a fatal weakness. This is a topic we cannot dwell on. The risks are catastrophic.". Related, perhaps?
It's like even thinking/talking about it can attract its attention.
Wild mass guessing ahead. Don't ask me to defend this theory. I can't without more info:
The Great Darkness isn't a threat to anything by itself, or it's at least containable. The Shivans kill civilizations on the verge of discovering Nagari access because the GD can interact with unprotected entities in the network and become something the Shivans can't handle.
This is why the Shivans are so paranoid about the Vishnans protecting humanity. If they **** up, the Great Darkness becomes a seriously huge concern. To which the Vishnans respond: "Their species will enter the one out of many, the Summed Psyche. The walls are ours, as are all those who cross them." The Vishnans think their protections sufficient. The Shivans do not. The cull must continue, because there's too much at stake.
The ontovore isn't the Shivans, it's the Great Darkness. And the one thing they can't do is kill it.
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I turned around on my second playthrough, of course..
FK it scared me, I was not expecting that at all. I should have known that BP is and is cabable of doing things that may not have been done previously. I was just expecting some sort of a ship or image. Not an entire sequence.
Very well thought post, I had thought that it was most likely going to be a shivan or vishnan construct, rather than something completely different. Damn me for not having the time to crack open any further details yet.
I wonder... what happens if it is unleashed (other than total doom and gloom)
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An interesting theory, and leaves much to ponder on...
but it makes me wonder, why do the shivans have a way out for us? Why should they care?
The vishnans have some goal they're working towards, and they want to use US to get it. Vs aren't happy with Ss for some reason, and were originally telling them to **** off at the end of AoA... but the vision that laporte sees contradicts this...
FFFFFFFFFFFF I WANT MORE BLUE PLANET
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You're right, it does throw the cargo containers in Ken in an entirely new light. Especially the "second dialogue", the one between the Gardeners (Shivans) and the Wallkeepers (Vishnans) - About the darkness that stalks the cold roads or whatever. I always assumed it was something they had unleashed in an alternate universe or subspace, not something stalking the Nagari networks. Not to say that it can't be both, of course, but in that case.... what is coming?
I think I need to replay Universal Truth and turn around.
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I wonder... what happens if it is unleashed (other than total doom and gloom)
The APOCALYPSE!
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There was a third question that Ken didn't answer. The Shivan Origins module. When you dig further, you these lines:
"secondary: selective pressure for resumption of panoptic function. secondary: suppression of destructive firewall strategies"
"PRIMARY: imperate! metastatic ontovoric acatalepsis event! subversion of noosphere un - TERMINATE"
And then, crucially, your Downlink display on your HUD displays INTERRUPTED. I don't think that was more direct info about Shivan origins. I think that was Laporte being threatened by a spreading cancer that eats sentients and is related to incomprehensibility, and the Shivans interrupting the train of information that lead to that. The un- is probably underway.
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TheDemon: Good catch, I had missed that.
"resumption of panoptic function": The Shivans' role in searching for Nagari activity, and subsequent prevention through annihilation?
"Subversion of noosphere underway": I concur with your assessment. Laporte narrowly avoids death/insanity and doesn't even realise it. Hell, if the Shivans take such direct action here, it could have been much worse than just Laporte. Noosphere usually implies more than one mind. If Laporte or another Nagari sensitive had done that without Ken there to moderate the connection, that could have resulted in exactly what the Shivans seek to prevent.
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On panoptic function, there's a GTVI tech room entry on the Vishnans that hypothesizes (and the debriefing of Universal Truth agrees) that their Great Psyche is an entity that exists in subspace, which surrounds (or walls in) all universes. The tech room entry goes on to say that from subspace, this Summed Psyche should be able to observe all space-time in a limited manner. Panoptic function. The Vishnans are the observers to our multiverse-prison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon).
My current guess on that Shivan quote is that when they entered our multiverse, one of their objectives was to place someone in the observer position. Sounds like the origin of the Vishnans and their Summed Psyche to me.
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Fun fact from the BP Beta
When you turned around you were shown a BSoD before the mission ended
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I'm actually really tempted to open up the data files and browse all the textures used in Universal Truth so I can see what's written on all those debriefing screens you flash...
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They're all in bp2-visuals2.vp , I had a quick look through the .png files. I think some of those pics were specifically chosen for their WTF quotient. And what the hell is
eye4.png
supposed to be???
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Wow, there's some warped stuff in there...
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It's like even thinking/talking about it can attract its attention.
Dammit, Orz, there are to be no *parties* in Freespace! Go get your *special sauce* elsewhere!
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I'm actually really tempted to open up the data files and browse all the textures used in Universal Truth so I can see what's written on all those debriefing screens you flash...
Wait, there was more than one debriefing screen flash? I got only one while escaping from the vishnans near the nodes near the 14th BG
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Here go my guesses:
The Great Darkness is something unique to biologicals, or biological sentients. It's the darkness, the chaos within us. so to speak.
The Shivans and Vishnans are immune to it, as they aren't biological in nature. The Brahmans were, and they fell to it. Cue the First Apocalypse.
Neither of the two races understood what happened at first, as they couldn't understand the Great Darkness, let alone fight it, but they had measures to prevent it from ever happening again. The Vishnans were to give every biological with potential to achieve 'enlightenment' the chance to do so. Those that didn't have the potential or failed to 'enlighten', like the Ancients, were left to die by the Shivans. Those that succeeded became part of the Great Psyche, which the Vishnans control.
Aken Bosch then 'merged' with the Shivans, and they learned about the Great Darkness. This proved their system right, and the cull continued.
The Vishnans knew about the Great Darkness and Humanity's potential to achieve 'enlightenment' through FS1 Alpha One, and started to passively intervene. Then Samuel Bei merged with the Vishnans and they redoubled their efforts for a short while. They started losing hope and began to write Humanity off as a failure after the GTVA-UEF war went on, despite their intervention.
Aken Bosch at some point broke a deal to the Shivans, to do what they cannot: fight the Great Darkness. In exchange, they'll let us live. At first the Shivans didn't believe we could, so they went on with the cull. Or they blew up Capella as an 'or else'.
But Noemi's presence may have changed their minds.
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Didn't Khonsu II's jester mention great darkness?
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To quote from The Rift: "The Jester was fixated upon something he called a 'deepness' which he could not describe." Also, quoting from the Ken mission, "Your creators blundered once, and in doing so, unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads of the cosmos" and (possibly related) "The old burnt the cosmos clean in the wars of their youth. Never again will that price be paid." And of course, we know that BP is keeping with the [V] hint that the Shivans are a symptom of a larger problem.
Based on how it finds anyone talking or even thinking about it via Nagari, it may be something integral to the Nagari process itself. <wild_speculation> So far we know nothing about how the Shivans/Vishnans physically communicate. What if they're dependent on another system for Nagari, something connected to the Great Darkness? </wild_speculation>
I have to play Universal Truth a few dozen more times before I'm at all qualified to speak on its contents, however.
[EDIT] Just played it a couple times and ripped the file open in FRED to read everything at my own pace.
"resumption of panoptic function": The Shivans' role in searching for Nagari activity, and subsequent prevention through annihilation?
"Subversion of noosphere underway": I concur with your assessment. Laporte narrowly avoids death/insanity and doesn't even realise it. Hell, if the Shivans take such direct action here, it could have been much worse than just Laporte. Noosphere usually implies more than one mind. If Laporte or another Nagari sensitive had done that without Ken there to moderate the connection, that could have resulted in exactly what the Shivans seek to prevent.
Small but probably crucial correction: it's panontic function. I believe this is related to the the ontovore which is also mentioned, using onto- to mean a living being, in which case the ontovore is something that eats or destroys all life, and "panontic function" refers to the function of all life ("function" meaning a computational function, which may be how the Shivans/Vishnans conceptualize life).
Also, the "noosphere" is mentioned later in the conversation witnessed by Laporte and Bei:
"If they have turned on themselves, they are failures. The panontos cannot be theirs. The noosphere can never be theirs."
<wild speculation>This suggests that the panontos and noosphere are things, possibly states of mind or vast mainframes constructed by the Brahman(s) which a mind (not an organic, finite mind- possibly not even the Shivans/Vishnans) could use or inhabit.
Of course, the Shivans in that conversation say that we could never achieve it or wouldn't be able to use it- it seems they believe our civil wars represent a crucial failing we could never overcome.</wild speculation>
(another random tangent: is it Brahmans, or Brahman? On separate occasions, the Shivans and Vishnans seem to switch between referring to it as a species and a single entity. Actually, it could be that the Shivans use one, and the Vishnans the other... I should look up all the references to it/them and see if this is the case)
[EDIT2, possibly less off-topic, omg so many words]
Part of the exposition when Laporte asks about the Great War is this:
"external heuristic injection: mandate node severance fallback. force binary isolation/extinction outcome"
Two important things, the first one I didn't notice until now. Cutting Sol off from the GTVA was not an accident; the Shivans did this intentionally. It seems it was a fallback plan... fallback to what, exactly? Ken admits the Shivans accomplished their mission in the Great War: to kill us, or force us to really unite (xenocultural integration). Would the Terrans and Vasudans have returned to war eventually if the Sol node weren't cut off (or did the Shivans predict that)?
Secondly, and more importantly: "external heuristic injection". Laporte notices this. Something told the Shivans that it would be a good idea to do this- something outside their own protocol. Could it be, or be related to, the Great Darkness?
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Two important things, the first one I didn't notice until now. Cutting Sol off from the GTVA was not an accident; the Shivans did this intentionally.
Really? Wow. So wait...if the Shivans INTENTIONALLY cut off Sol...then that means Alpha 1 and the squadrons that blew up the Lucifer inside the Sol-Delta Serpentis jump node were actually Shivan agents conducting espionage!
Which means that I, the player, have been working for the Shivans ALL ALONG.
(Of course, that didn't stop the Shivans from blowing up Vasuda Prime instead of just cutting it off...)
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"external heuristic injection: mandate node severance fallback. force binary isolation/extinction outcome"
Two important things, the first one I didn't notice until now. Cutting Sol off from the GTVA was not an accident; the Shivans did this intentionally. It seems it was a fallback plan... fallback to what, exactly? Ken admits the Shivans accomplished their mission in the Great War: to kill us, or force us to really unite (xenocultural integration). Would the Terrans and Vasudans have returned to war eventually if the Sol node weren't cut off (or did the Shivans predict that)?
Not to rain on your parade, but you're quoting from the text for the "Shivans and Capella" node. This is not related to the Lucifer incident.
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Are you sure? I'm fairly certain that's the "probe further" response to the Great War node.
Secondly, and more importantly: "external heuristic injection". Laporte notices this. Something told the Shivans that it would be a good idea to do this- something outside their own protocol. Could it be, or be related to, the Great Darkness?
The Shivan records mention "external heuristic injection" at another point: the Capella conflict.
Relevant entry:
"local autonomous strategic response underway. no addition cull triggered: threshold inflamed but external heuristic injection: HOLD."
Given what Ken said, their "strategic response" would be their battles with the GTVA in the nebula and Gamma Draconis. The battle is underway despite no cull being triggered... then all of a sudden they get a "HOLD" command from "external".
Now look what they say next: it's almost like the Shivan mind is arguing with itself:
"strategic impulse: orion arm arteria threatened: coagulate, coordinate, repel"
It's like the Shivan mind is saying "Hold? We're being threatened here! Our job at this point is to repel the threat. Why hold?"
Then:
"apatic anima supervisory issues covert resolution: execute roadblock. generate transabyssal connection. stand by."
One of their animas came up with a compromise: detonate Capella (the "roadblock"). This keeps the GTVA out of Shivan territory as much as it keeps the Shivans out of GTVA territory. (Note that Capella is also a part of this "transabyssal gate" thing, so they were likely killing two birds with one stone.)
I'm thinking this "external heuristic" during the Second Incursion was Bosch contacting them with ETAK. When that happens the Shivans begin negotiations, necessitating the "HOLD" order. But they cannot hold: the GTVA was intruding on their systems. So they compromised by cutting the GTVA off from their space (ironically, the exact same thing the GTVA was doing).
I don't think we can assume that any "external heuristic" is the Great Darkness or whatever. It's just any contact they receive from an outside source. The Vishnans communicating with them in Age of Aquarius" probably was another "external heuristic".
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Hhmmmm, you may be right. It's been a while since I aactually looked closely at the text in UT2.
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I think DH is right about the "external heuristic injection" in the Capella dialogue being Bosch contacting them. But that leaves the question open as to what the first one was. Another possible answer is the GTI- they were studying Shivans (and developing ETAK-like technology) even before the Great War so they may have contacted the Shivans as well. I'll have to look through the briefing about the Idun Dictionary to tell if this is even a possibility, but at least it's reminded me about a plotline that I haven't thought about in a while.
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I had a new line of thought. The Great Darkness may be a sort of vacuum, which feeds on reality or existence itself, through subspace. Subspace may be like a conduit for anything beyond the physical realm, a platform to browse through with Nagari, like cyberspace, where all realities can meet.
The Great Darkness may have existed before the Brahmans themselves. Rather than having created the Great Darkness, the Brahmans may have filled the vacuum of the Great Darkness, so it does not continue devour. But like all things born, the Brahmans eventually died and they created the Vishnans to find species which could replace Brahmans. Still, the Brahmans made one fatal mistake: the Vishnans were created and therefor they can also die.
Something that can die, is inherently afraid to die and the Vishnans are breaking away from their purpose to try and survive themselves. Maybe humanity is in their eyes a temporary stopgap which delays the inevitable, the Vishnans death. Perhaps the Sync joke in the Universal Truth mission actually is a metaphore for a sink-plug that is plugged into the Great Darkness, a vacuum.
The Shivans may want humanity to take the Vishnans place. If we have shown them one thing, it is that we're not afraid of dying and we do not try to outrun death. We faced the Shivans head on, against all odds. If the Vishnans have started to deceive the Shivans out of fear of the Great Darkness, then humankind is a more solid choice as future wallkeepers. Aken Bosch's deal with the Shivans might be that we'll replace the Vishnans and do a better job at whatever they do. There's no place in that for Vasudans as they are far too prone to resign to fate.
As the Shivans always existed and are eternal, they cannot die. They do not experience fear as the Vishnans might and therefor do not act in desperation. We have been shown they take their time and that they can obivously afford to do so. That inherently does not give them a basis to be 'evil' or 'wrongdoers', unlike the Vishnans who CAN die and grow desperate. They are far less prone to betray us, unlike the Vishnans would.
On a funny note, if Dreamscape is like the internet, does that make the Nagari network something of a deep web? :P
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I dn't like the notion, that the Zods don't fit into the plans of the Shivans and Vishnans, and therefore are to be culled...
But maybe I'm interpreting things wrong.
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Another idea I had from Sara's post is that, judging the similar outlooks of the cosmos the Vishnans and Vasudans have, you'll use the Vasudans to replace them while the Humans take up the role of Brahman, filling the "insentient" void of nothingness that constantly tries to fill itself by absorbing whatever is "near" it.
I am curious though, what if the thing we should not be thinking about is a byproduct of the Dawn War... or if it predates it in a similar way the Shivans do?
Judging by some of the insanity images we get (which resemble 3d renders of cellular automatons), another idea I had is The Great Darkness is some sort of Nagari carcass of the Brahmans. The Brahmans rose, the Brahmans fell, look upon what is left of their might and tremble in fear of the works of reality.
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I dn't like the notion, that the Zods don't fit into the plans of the Shivans and Vishnans, and therefore are to be culled...
But maybe I'm interpreting things wrong.
We haven't heard what either the Vishnans or the Shivans think about the Vasudans. Perhaps they have something in mind for them as well. But the characters are more focused on what's happening to the Terrans, so that's what everyone's talking about.
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I wonder... what happens if it is unleashed (other than total doom and gloom)
The APOCALYPSE!
Yeah, all the species will die via horrific extermination by unknowable, uncaring alie--oh wait.
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What do lab researchers generally do with a cell culture that's deviated from experimental protocols?
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What do lab researchers generally do with a cell culture that's deviated from experimental protocols?
See what happens?
Seriously though, sapient species are another matter entirely, especially if they're immediately capable of joining the Summed Psyche.
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The Summed Psyche obviously has enormous available computational capability. (This is a running theme in Blue Planet by now, I think it's clear.) If they issued a kill order on the human species, something changed between the end of AoA - when they attempted direct intervention to preserve their Ubuntu experiment, and also arranged for the Sanctuary to be moved to 'our' universe - and whenever the 'silence' began.
We may not have access to the moral systems they operate on, if morality - a set of rules for organizing a sustainable society, meant to be internalized by each individual - is meaningful to them at all. But inasmuch as game theory is a universal, we can still examine their decisions. What would motivate them to wipe out an entire species? Triage? A protocol? The blind or universal application of a heuristic that they consider, for whatever reason, inviolable?
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What do lab researchers generally do with a cell culture that's deviated from experimental protocols?
See what happens?
Seriously though, sapient species are another matter entirely, especially if they're immediately capable of joining the Summed Psyche.
Sapient species never seem to stop declaring their huge uniqueness and value. One could conclude they are a tad self-centered. One even might conclude they are a tad dangerous for that reason alone.
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What would motivate them to wipe out an entire species? Triage? A protocol? The blind or universal application of a heuristic that they consider, for whatever reason, inviolable?
Either that, self-preservation, or the conservation of power. It could be the Shambala project is against their protocols and the elders did not know it. It could be that whatever the Shivans cannot accomplish has to do with a rivalry between the Shivans and Vishnans and destroys/hampers the Vishnans or goes against their protocol. My guess is that the reason why the Vishnans have turned their backs is strongly tied to the rivalry between Vishnan and Shivan.
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strategic impulse: orion arm arteria threatened: coagulate, coordinate, repel
Oh wow. Combine overwatch voice, much?
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Are you pointing out a similarity or making an accusation of plagiarism?
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similarity
but i can accuse too if you want
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Remember, citizen, inaction is conspiracy.
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I liek combine overwatch voice
it's cool
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So, we've seen the Universal Truth from two viewpoints...
But what if the great darkness is simply a sort of illness which blinds all those who are Nagari-sensetiv, thus robbing Shivanas and Vishnans of potential pawns?
On a complete unrelated sidenote: Shivans are some sort of supercumputers, the Vishnans some hivemind spanning space and times.
What if the Shivans could be infected and the Vishnans being...mindkilled?
Or what if the Terrans and Zods could somehow disable the terminal directive(or was it called otherwise?) thus freeing both superspecies?
But my most favored solution is using the Sanctuary as some sort of super Nagaridevice with Sam and Laporte to controll the Vishnans and Shivans.
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Good luck with that last one.
I think, in a direct mental confrontation, the Shivans or the Vishnans would roflstomp any human mind, or network of human minds, that tried to battle them. The only reason Laporte survived the Vishnan's mental assault was that Ken was protecting her.
Remember, the only reason any humans are nagari sensitive is because either the Shivans or the Vishnans interfered. Nagari sensitivity is not natural, and all contact so far has been on their terms, not humanity's. Even Laporte's contact into the connection was supported and assisted by Ken: the only reason it worked is because Ken allowed it to.
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And thats the whole thing, both factions use the humans as means to fight their war.
"Rise untill lambs become lions", thats how it'll end, mark my words.
But I agree on the roflstomp part.
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"external heuristic injection: mandate node severance fallback. force binary isolation/extinction outcome"
Interpreting this as Earth is curious to me, because it seems to speak to a different mystery stretching back to the canon.
Bosch said we had "no future" with the Vasudans. One of the only other known instances of real Human-Shivan communication and cooperation (the Hades and related GTI shenanigans) resulted in an attempt to destroy the Vasudans. So I think the purpose wasn't to destroy Earth or isolate it. It was to destroy Earth or isolate it from the Vasudans.
It might also be related to the Summed Psyche's kill order. The formerly safely isolated Earth system is now increasing contaminated by Vasudans and there is no foreseeable outcome to the war that doesn't involve lots of them visiting and contamination of either physical or cultural sorts.
I don't know (and actually kind of doubt it is) if that contamination is actually directly dangerous to humans, but it may pose a long-term threat to the Shivan-Vishnan dynamic to have a joint partnership that could, someday, replace them. They want to replace a lost race. They don't know what to do with two.
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I thought the kill order was ordered after the war escalated?
What if the 14th would have defected wholesale? Could they hold the node so long that the Feds move a long range blockade in?
Wouldn't the Kill order given if Sol remained save?
I for my part thought the
external heuristic injection: mandate node severance fallback. force binary isolation/extinction outcome
refered to Capella...should've looked what node I accessed.
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One of the only other known instances of real Human-Shivan communication and cooperation (the Hades and related GTI shenanigans)
Communication possibly, but cooperation ? Wat ?
The GTI never allied with Shivans. They used, studied and possibly replicated Shivan tech. I doubt captured Shivan specimens had any role at all in the Hades rebellion beyond being Yet Another GTI Experiment.
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The Idun Dictionary came from GTI research on Shivan specimens and Nagari. GTI named the Nagari process. It is certain that the Hades Rebellion had something to do with their Nagari research, and probable that it had something to do with some GTI communication with Shivans (We don't know that they were cooperating with Shivans, but they definitely had contact and were therefore at least influenced by Shivans).
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The Idun Dictionary came from GTI research on Shivan specimens and Nagari. GTI named the Nagari process.
Yes.
It is certain that the Hades Rebellion had something to do with their Nagari research, and probable that it had something to do with some GTI communication with Shivans (We don't know that they were cooperating with Shivans, but they definitely had contact and were therefore at least influenced by Shivans).
Now where does that come from.
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The GTI never allied with Shivans.
The wing of fully functional Seraphim (unlike your broken-down ****ty Dragon in Playing Judas) the Hades launched says no.
Besides, you're making an interesting assumption about the nature of the relationship. GTI did not ally with the Shivans; the Shivans that GTI had in custody for whatever reason worked for GTI. That's a fairly solid fact given the command briefs from Silent Threat and the mere existence of the Hades.
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The GTI Rebellion was based on the GTI's extensive use of Shivan technology (or was the Hades not an attempt at replicating the Lucifer?). This alone makes it at least related to their Nagari research. We don't know the GTI's motivation for the rebellion itself, but the amount of Shivan tech they were working with definitely suggests that they were working in tandem with the Shivans (I won't make any guesses as to who was working for who).
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The wing of fully functional Seraphim (unlike your broken-down ****ty Dragon in Playing Judas) the Hades launched says no.
In BP, ST:R is canon. ST is not.
GTI did not ally with the Shivans; the Shivans that GTI had in custody for whatever reason worked for GTI. That's a fairly solid fact given the command briefs from Silent Threat and the mere existence of the Hades.
The GTI Rebellion was based on the GTI's extensive use of Shivan technology (or was the Hades not an attempt at replicating the Lucifer?). This alone makes it at least related to their Nagari research. We don't know the GTI's motivation for the rebellion itself, but the amount of Shivan tech they were working with definitely suggests that they were working in tandem with the Shivans (I won't make any guesses as to who was working for who).
Seriously, where do those assumptions come from. It's not even remotely validated by anything in ST:R.
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It's the Transcendent :warp:
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No, he appears elsewhere in that mission.
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What if Laporte is the transcendant! *gasp*
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Nope, Ken is the transcendant. The only reason he doesn't kill La Porte is because he wants to lead everyone to their doom, not just her.
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I'm confident that the Transcendant is none of the characters in BP outside of that one failure debriefing.
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So you guys do realize that there's no need for spoiler tags in this particular topic, right? :p
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So you guys do realize that there's no need for spoiler tags in this particular topic, right? :p
Spoiler tags are the height of civilization :P
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They're all in bp2-visuals2.vp , I had a quick look through the .png files. I think some of those pics were specifically chosen for their WTF quotient. And what the hell is eye4.png
supposed to be???
I do wonder if it was created with BP in mind, or if it's just some generic image with cool fractals.
Oh, well, even if it were the former, I'm not sure what one could deduce from it.
Was looking into the mission with FRED for gaining the information that I had missed when the nodes didn't work for me, it's full of interesting stuff, the different debriefings alone are very well written.
So the "Great Darkness" is apparently classified as a "worm", maybe that's some hint towards it being sort of a Nagari-parasite?
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What do lab researchers generally do with a cell culture that's deviated from experimental protocols?
See what happens?
Seriously though, sapient species are another matter entirely, especially if they're immediately capable of joining the Summed Psyche.
Sapient species never seem to stop declaring their huge uniqueness and value. One could conclude they are a tad self-centered. One even might conclude they are a tad dangerous for that reason alone.
Not so much uniqueness as distinction. And it doesn't stop at sapient, either: an entity like the Vishnans has similar, perhaps even far greater consideration.
A sapient entity has the capacity to truly understand and learn things that are entirely outside their experience or proximity. That capability means that it is effectively more practical/efficient to teach a sapient entity (that is willing to learn, even if that willingness comes as a result of an ultimatum) the 'problem'--be it their problem, some universal problem, some abstract problem with major consequences for other entities, etc--and encourage, enact, or enforce a solution, rather than wholesale or even callous slaughter.
The Vishnans sort of do this themselves--the big discrepancy is that they seem to arbitrarily distinguish between 'okay' and 'not okay' ways of intervention, manipulation, or guidance, and when things don't go exactly according to plan...kill everyone (?).
At least when it comes to the Shivans, their goals/criteria/protocols don't involve such a dynamic at all--they kill any race that doesn't meet its specific, strict criteria, and they don't manipulate races towards those criteria (at least not that we know of).
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Let's put it this way. If the ants start pissing me off on my office's kitchen, I kill the thousands of them all. I don't feel necessarily Hitlerian after the fact. In fact, I feel cleaner.
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The Ancient cull speaks of them being eradicated at present -8800, if those are years, that would place them within the times mentioned on the "Ancients" database article, about 8000+ years ago and between the dates given to the artifacts of an annihilated species and well within the Vasudan's ruling dynasty's length.
The Mind Worm's tech room description speaks of the possibility of an ancient mistake by the very first civilizations... this may be related to the "No War" policy of the protocol. What if the Great Darkness was created as a weapon that destroyed though acatalepsy? The creators did blunder once...
About the Vishnans: The Great Psyche might be seeking to absorb the humans in an attempt to prevent their own extinction. Fulfilling their original protocol might result in them having no reason to exist, and that might conflict with their primary role of Preservers. The Shivans being immortal give no ****s about this, Ken's words at the Transabyssal Gate make it clear they don't think they need them. By absorbing the human race's Noosphere, the Vish. will transcend their original purpose and become the new Brahmans, thus attaining a higher place in the cosmic order.
At any rate, of all things in this thread, only one is certain: We need Part 2-2 dang it! Anyway, time for the devs to drop a cryptic bomb shell and some Weapons of Mind Destruction and make us start thinking this all over again.
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I don't know if this is necro or not, so here goes.... :nervous:
Alternate Great Darkness theory:
The Great Darkness looks suspiciously like the LOST monster. Based upon this, I believe that the Great Darkness is either the LOST monster or a descendant/relative of it. The reason why you die/go mad if you look at it is because the Great Darkness fills your brain with LOST reruns, either causing it to explode or implode. CASSANDRA mercy-kills Laporte to spare her the sheer crappyness of this all. The Nagari networks are in fact a quarantine zone made with the intention of keeping the GD out of "our" universe.
The Shivans and the Vishnans are in fact a pair of universal guardians dedicated to destroying any and all forms of the LOST show to prevent the Great Darkness from entering "our" universe and destroying everything/killing everyone with endless LOST reruns. The reason why the Shivans ordered a cull is because humans managed to produce an almost-full run of the show, putting the GD to getting out of the Nagari network and one step closer to destroying the universe.
No, I haven't been watching too much LOST, and I really hate it too, okay? :nervous:
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So the "Great Darkness" is apparently classified as a "worm", maybe that's some hint towards it being sort of a Nagari-parasite?
If Nagari is analogous to a computer network, wouldn't the "worm" be a computer virus, lurking in the quantum pulse? Laporte is just a puny human and is driven insane by an imperfectly-translated version. If it infected an advanced, collective mind like that of the Shivans or Vishnans, able to comprehend its entirety and ready to burn the universe...
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Ya know... for some reason. Battuta's old comment about BP's Ancients being different. Me rewatching their Cinematics on Youtube and reading the above post made me come up with a random theory: The GD is an Ancient super weapon.
Someone mentioned on a thread that: In AoA we play as a Vishnan avatar. In WiH we play as a Shivan avatar. What if BP3 has us play... an Ancient avatar? You were raised by a secretive Vasudan sect to fulfil the last will of the Ancients, destroying the Universe through their master weapon: The Great Darkness!
Then, at the very end we get to chose between three endings:
- Allow the Great Darkness to consume the Cosmos.
- Unleash the Shivans, to destory the GTVA and submit to their will.
- Allow the Vishnans to "absorb" all cognitive capable life, turning it into a single, all pervading, organism. :b
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If the Ancients had such a superweapon they wouldn't have gotten whacked by the Lucifer. The Great Darkness is probably whatever destroyed the Brahmans, kept at bay by the Procedure to prevent another cosmic apocalypse.
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Not necessarily. Maybe the Ancients unleashed it in the hopes that it would annihilate the nagari network and thus prevent the Shivans from sensing them (Ken said that the Nagari network was the Shivans' "hunting sense"), but it was either too weak to take down the entire network, or the Shivans and/or Vishnans somehow managed to counter it, but were unable to completely purge it.
Not that I believe that the darkness really is that... I'm just saying it's not impossible.
As for it being responsible for the Brahmans death.... maybe it's the other way round. It coult be the result, rather than the cause, of the Brahman's death.
Maybe the death of millions of nagari sensetive people damaged the network resulting in the "creation" of the darkness within the network.
Or something a little like the Chaos gods in Warhammer 40K. An amalgamation of negative feelings that accumulated somewhere in the nagari network and reached a state where it can "move" around in the network and is drawn toward similar emotions or someone thinking about it.
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On a more serious post...
We know from 'Ken' that the Brahmans made some sort of blunder, it was that mistake that unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads. A conclusion to be drawn here, is that the Brahmans created something while ignoring it's possible repercussions.
The word Blunder might have been better chosen that I though, as it could mean the Brahmans refused to see *something* could be dangerous.
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"external heuristic injection: mandate node severance fallback. force binary isolation/extinction outcome"
Two important things, the first one I didn't notice until now. Cutting Sol off from the GTVA was not an accident; the Shivans did this intentionally. It seems it was a fallback plan... fallback to what, exactly? Ken admits the Shivans accomplished their mission in the Great War: to kill us, or force us to really unite (xenocultural integration). Would the Terrans and Vasudans have returned to war eventually if the Sol node weren't cut off (or did the Shivans predict that)?
Secondly, and more importantly: "external heuristic injection". Laporte notices this. Something told the Shivans that it would be a good idea to do this- something outside their own protocol. Could it be, or be related to, the Great Darkness?
Something jumped out at me about this.
I do believe it applies to earth. I don't believe it has to do with united or warring terrans and vasudans.
Here is my theory:
The external injector is the Vishnans. They have set a mission. Eradicate the terrans and Vasudans OR Force an isolation. Either is acceptable. The Shivans, still dutiful gardeners at that time, carry out the directive.
The Vishnans visit Alpha 1 with visions about the ancients, ('so this is our legacy - in subspace they cannot use their shields, and into subspace they can be tracked') and I dont think it's too far of a stretch to say they arranged for the Vasudan scientists to discover the ancient records on Altair. This gave Alpha 1 the tools necessary to destroy the Lucifer when it attacked earth, giving him the potential to force an isolation.
Vishnan objective: Create ubuntu. They judged that required an isolated home system. So, that's why the Shivan armada fell into disarray after the Lucy was destroyed. One of the acceptable mission outcomes had been achieved, and so they allowed the rest of their fleet to be mopped up and destroyed. Mission was accomplished.
Fast forward to AoA and the Vishnans are now radically against a cull. Their isolation experiment has succeeded in nurturing enightenment. They were willing to accept extinction as an option before, but now they are too close to whatever their goal is. Also the relationship between the shivans and vishnans has changed since the GW.
My two cents. But that's my interpretation of the Great War 'External heuristic'
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Except that now they seem to be all for a cull, in 'Ken' the node constantly repeats that it's getting a cull order... and reprioritizing it so that it won't get carried out.
Two ideas come out of that 1) The Shivans are disobeying to give Laporte a chance. 2) Ken is the one subverting those orders.
Ubuntu was not a Vishnan creation, but something they saw potential in, and worked to make happen by any means. It was already semi-underway thanks to the GTA program for a better future (I forgot it's name.)
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Except that now they seem to be all for a cull, in 'Ken' the node constantly repeats that it's getting a cull order... and reprioritizing it so that it won't get carried out.
Two ideas come out of that 1) The Shivans are disobeying to give Laporte a chance. 2) Ken is the one subverting those orders.
Ubuntu was not a Vishnan creation, but something they saw potential in, and worked to make happen by any means. It was already semi-underway thanks to the GTA program for a better future (I forgot it's name.)
Semantic mistake on my part. They saw its potential and made sure it happened. I still think the above analysis of the heuristic is sound, allthough if other holes can be shot in it, fire away.
I was also doing more thinking. Which I think may explain why they want a cull.
I'll try and describe it in a legible manner, sometimes my mind works faster then I could put things into words. Sorry if it's kind of chaotic. It's all of course straight off the top of my head in the last 30 minutes, I may be (probably am) WAY out to lunch. But here goes.
Okay so: The Vishnans say something about owning the walls of the universe, and those who cross them. It was mentioned earlier they maintain the walls around the Multiverse (maybe keeping the GD out) but I imagine the also control the walls BETWEEN universes. In fact that seems likely in how they threw the 14th BG through a ringer.
Now, it also seems possible they could create a divergent universe through a binary event. We see an alternate one in AoA that diverged at an unknown point. My premise is this: That is not that divergent universe. That is the original. The control if you will. Ours is divergent.
The Vishnans saw potential in ubuntu. But only potential. It wasn't a slam dunk. But it was something they wanted to explore, to experiment with. So what did they do? They partitioned the universe where the Lucifer gets destroyed into a separate one. Henceforth I will refer to it as the Lab universe.
I imagine they have created lab universes in the past, and when their experiments failed, the ordered a cull, and the Shivans cleaned it up.
But then the non-isolated Terrans of the Lab universe built a portal. They threatened to break the isolation and destroy what the Vishnans deemed 'enlightenment' so they sent the 14 Battlegroup back to the True Universe to try to influence them into stopping the war (AoA). The Shivans in the True Universe understand that this is the control universe. There will be no experimenting with survival here, which is why they attack the 14th. They are then enraged when the Vishnans will not reveal the purpose with which they brought the 14th back into the True Universe at all, and reject their directives. The Vishnans arrange for the 14th to return and hopefully prevent the war.
This fails. Their experiment has failed, a war between humans is that failure. They order a cull. Except now the Shivans refuse.
Something went terribly wrong in the Lab universe. The Vishnans were too focused on Earth and nurturing enlightenment there - they only addressed the GTVA in so far as it may have threatened that design (The 14th BG, etc). What they didn't account for was GTI and Aken Bosch. When he used ETAK to contact the Shivans he fundamentally changed the relationship between to two super species. The Shivans now have their own objectives in the Lab universe, rather then just clean up when the experiment fails. They obviously don't regard their objectives in the Lab Universe as lost yet. So the Vishnans repetitively demand a cull, and the Shivans refuse.
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If that's the case, what's stopping the Vishnans from performing the cull themselves? They more than likely have the firepower to roflstomp both the GTVA and the UEF in no time.
My only real guess is that the Shivans would fight in defense of the Terrans and Zods.
I prolly answered my own question...maybe. There might be more to it than that.
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If that's the case, what's stopping the Vishnans from performing the cull themselves? They more than likely have the firepower to roflstomp both the GTVA and the UEF in no time.
My only real guess is that the Shivans would fight in defense of the Terrans and Zods.
I prolly answered my own question...maybe. There might be more to it than that.
The Vishnans certainly engaged Shivan forces to defend their plan in AoA. So it's probably safe to say that if the Shivans don't want there to be a cull, they would intervene much in the same way.
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Here's another question: do the Zods count as cull targets?
Everything I get from the fiction I'm given is that the Zods are more advanced, more prosperous, and more in-tune with the truths of universe, than the human side of the GTVA. Having done this without a homeworld, they've become children of the stars in every sense. They also don't fight in the current war.
Our perspective is naturally human-centric. Humanity has been the focus of both Blue Planets and likely will continue to be as long as the series bears a reference to our homeworld in its name. Being human too, we identify readily with them. But having survived two culls, the Vasudans really ought to have a part in the Vishnan/Shivan cosmic plan, for one faction or the other or for themselves. That the emperor has taken in Nagari sensitive advisors and decided to maintain a separate navy to the GTVA shows, in my opinion, that Vasudan leadership is following their own plan re: Nagari and re: a possible third Shivan incursion.
References:
http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/rift.html
http://blueplanet.hard-light.net/nagari.html
I've yet to see someone bring up a full argument as to where they fit in, though. Which alien faction provided 'The Jester' with the vision of an upcoming apocalypse? The result of this vision was a powerful and independent Vasudan navy. Which alien faction was interested in promoting this outcome? And what was the nature of this apocalypse? Having survived the destruction of their homeworld, frankly, I'm not sure what kind of fear would scare a Vasudan 'veteran of the nebular campaign' so ****less that he needed medication to regain his faculty of speech.
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I've yet to see someone bring up a full argument as to where they fit in, though. Which alien faction provided 'The Jester' with the vision of an upcoming apocalypse? The result of this vision was a powerful and independent Vasudan navy. Which alien faction was interested in promoting this outcome? And what was the nature of this apocalypse? Having survived the destruction of their homeworld, frankly, I'm not sure what kind of fear would scare a Vasudan 'veteran of the nebular campaign' so ****less that he needed medication to regain his faculty of speech.
Maybe he glimpsed the GD
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My guess would be the Shivans, given their impact on the Vasudans and apocalypse cults such as the Hammer of Light.
But given their outlook of time and other characteristics, they resemble the Vishnans a lot... perhaps the Vishnans had something in mind for the Vasudans. One thing we know is that we have no future with the Vasudans, thus spake Carlosh.
Or perhaps that is why the Shivans want to destroy the GTVA, divide it into the Vasudans (for safe keeping) and the GTA, for purging or absorption into the UEF, which as dialogue notes, admires the Vasudans and their culture (at least the elders do.)
And yes, he did see the deepness.
Edit: Sleepy now, as such my faculties are degraded but, after reading some bits of Zoroastrianism, some ways to... interpret Ahriman and the Daevas have made me curious. I will post more tomorrow, but some people might be interested in making searches about the subject in the meantime.
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Considering the Greenfly sleeper in the dreamscape it's quite possible the Jester's visions were not "provided" by either side.
Maybe he's just a natural nagari-sensetive (or a secret experiment of the Vasudans themself) and just happened to "dream himself into" one of the simulations either the Vishnans or Shivans ran on possible futures by accident/coincidence.
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I might be a huge pussy, but I don't even dare replaying Universal Truth, let alone turning around. That mission was seriously scary.
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I might be a huge pussy, but I don't even dare replaying Universal Truth, let alone turning around. That mission was seriously scary.
Welcome to the club! :lol:
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I might be a huge pussy, but I don't even dare replaying Universal Truth, let alone turning around. That mission was seriously scary.
It's worst the first time through due to the shock value. Not to say there isn't all sorts of creepy stuff you miss the first time, either. Lots of secrets. Lots of fractals.
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If that's the case, what's stopping the Vishnans from performing the cull themselves? They more than likely have the firepower to roflstomp both the GTVA and the UEF in no time.
They don't know about Ken, though, so they're happy to let the Shivans do it.
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I might be a huge pussy, but I don't even dare replaying Universal Truth, let alone turning around. That mission was seriously scary.
It's worst the first time through due to the shock value. Not to say there isn't all sorts of creepy stuff you miss the first time, either. Lots of secrets. Lots of fractals.
Lots is an understatement... :nervous: :shaking:
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I was a coward at first, but I decided to replay to see what happens when you stay behind at the end... Needless to say, I will never sleep soundly again. I guess it did it's thing.
I haven't turned back at the Great Darkness, but I've seen it's face! Thanks FRED. :P
Has anyone gotten the ending in which Laporte takes her skin off? Or the one in which she kills her squadron?
Also: I am surprised some of those fractals are not shock images on the Net, seriously. I like to call the green face fractal " The fractal of Sin" it reminds me of Doom for some reason.
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Random Theory:
I think the Brahmans were not a single entity or species like the Vishnans, Shivans or Terrans, but were more a galactic community. According to the Ken mission and Universal Truth 2, there was the Dawn War. This Dawn War probably killed almost all life in the Galaxy and left it uninhabited, which is The Great Darkness. The Brahmans were the community which followed after the Dawn War and after learning the truth about it, they installed countermeasures to prevent a second apocalypse. These countermeasures could be the Termination Protocol (terminate species before they can shatter the peace) and the Vishnans, which should preserve the status quo. Either the Vishnans ****ed up really hard (... and in their death we watched your making) or the Termination Protocol isn't perfect.
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If the team had really wanted the insanity images to scar you, they could have done it.
You see, there's this movie called Event Horizon...
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If the team had really wanted the insanity images to scar you, they could have.
You see, there's this movie called Event Horizon Doom: The Movie, Done Right...
Fixed :P
And no, that film was not scary. UT is because pondering madness makes me uncomfortable, deeply so.
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Excuse me, it was clearly a WH40k prequel.
And it had some intensely disturbing images in it, though you wouldn't quite notice them unless you slowed down the sequences in question.
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The eyes thing was deeply disturbing in EH, IMHO.
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If the team had really wanted the insanity images to scar you, they could have.
You see, there's this movie called Event Horizon Doom: The Movie, Done Right...
Fixed :P
And no, that film was not scary. UT is because pondering madness makes me uncomfortable, deeply so.
A year ago Universal Truth would of scared me pretty bad, but all those LPs of horror games have desensitized me. At this point nothing short of jumpscare-ridden supernatural horror will do more than unnerve me a little.
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Jumpscares are lame. UT is unnerving for its atmosphere more than anything.
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Heyyy! I found where one of the images comes from! (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/04/t-rex-leech/) Sweet dreams gentlemen.
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Jumpscares are lame. UT is unnerving for its atmosphere more than anything.
UT is horror done right. So are Sync and Transcend. There is nothing more horrific that the human imagination. This is why most horror films suck.
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Speaking of Sync:
"Personal log, Max Calten, Alpha 3 - freelancer.
I think there's something out there. It's not the Shivans that are our problem. They're just messengers. Messengers. And we wouldn't listen. We just ran away. They're always running away. Everyone runs.
I can feel it watching me. It's out there, somewhere. Waiting. Sometimes it's so close I can't breathe. It's not a creature. Nothing like that could be alive. It's going to catch us and make us never exist. We've done this to ourselves. It's something that wants nothing. Everything to become nothing. And the Shivans are its messenger..."
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Here's some thought on the Great Darkness.
We have discovered no hint, no residue, no archaelogical or astronomical clue that could confirm the existence of a Brahman civilization. The very notion of a mythical progenitor species is a hoary cliche.
Yet our own coexistence with the Vasudans, and our knowledge of the extent of Ancient xenocide, summons a powerful mystery. Technologically sophisticated life is apparently common in the galaxy - it arises frequently, and it has done so for some time now, at least in the cosmological span. Why, then, is the galaxy empty? Why do we find no von Neumann probes propagating through the subspace network? Where is the life that must have come before us?
We should inhabit a teeming universe, a bazaar of wonders, a cosmic ecumenopolis overflowing with civilization. The stars and galaxies around us should by all rights have been restructured to the needs of unimaginably sophisticated engineers. Technology self-catalyzes, and that catalysis has had time to flourish. The civilizations of the universe should, by now, have conquered reality itself.
Yet we find no such wonder. Our cosmos is silent.
Certainly the Shivans provide one answer to this question - a great filter that annihilates spacefaring civilizations. But what if there was a time before the Shivans? What happened to the first life in the universe, the children of the dawn?
Did they pass on to some unglimpsable destiny, leaving no wreckage or monument? Or do we inhabit their tomb - a quarantine zone, a carcass, malignant with some ancient mistake?
So the galaxy is nearly empty and odds of running into something are rather tiny. Then why did we run into the Vasudans when we did? It surely can't have been mere coincedence, not with those odds. Then, did someone WANT us to run into the old ones, to PROVOKE these Shivans and Vishnans to appear to us? Vasudan-Terran conflict made a noise which could have drawn their attention, but why and for what reason would someone do such a thing. And does it relate to the Great Darkness, or to something quite opposite of this darkness, something that sparks these events of conflict? Something that needed for the Vasudans and Terrans to meet?
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The Terrans and Zods just evolved next door to each other. I'm sure intelligent life is common in the universe, just not huge Type IV+ civilizations, since all the young species get glassed by the Shivans and the old empires got glassed by each other and finally themselves.
THE OLD BURNT THE COSMOS CLEAN IN THE WARS OF THEIR YOUTH. NEVER AGAIN WILL THAT PRICE BE PAID.
your creators blundered once and in doing so unleashed the deepness that stalks the cold roads of the cosmos. we must prepare.
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If anyone has recording software, as a favor would you be willing to please record a YouTube of the various alternative / "bad" endings to UT (including not entering the Shivan tunnel, turning around when told not to, staying behind, etc.)? In return I can only offer my gratitude -- I've been using QuantumDelta's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnRisy2o6OI playthrough to look at the mission frame by frame.
If nobody can or is willing, no worries - it's not urgent. :)
I'd FRAPS the mission myself but my hard disk space is currently critical (no way it's going to be able to handle the temp files created). Long overdue for a total backup and cleanout. :blah:
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If anyone has recording software, as a favor would you be willing to please record a YouTube of the various alternative / "bad" endings to UT (including not entering the Shivan tunnel, turning around when told not to, staying behind, etc.)? In return I can only offer my gratitude -- I've been using QuantumDelta's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnRisy2o6OI playthrough to look at the mission frame by frame.
If nobody can or is willing, no worries - it's not urgent. :)
I'd FRAPS the mission myself but my hard disk space is currently critical (no way it's going to be able to handle the temp files created). Long overdue for a total backup and cleanout. :blah:
You'd first have to admit publicly that you are too chicken to re-play/play? the bad endings! :p (lol jk)
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If anyone has recording software, as a favor would you be willing to please record a YouTube of the various alternative / "bad" endings to UT (including not entering the Shivan tunnel, turning around when told not to, staying behind, etc.)? In return I can only offer my gratitude -- I've been using QuantumDelta's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnRisy2o6OI playthrough to look at the mission frame by frame.
If nobody can or is willing, no worries - it's not urgent. :)
I'd FRAPS the mission myself but my hard disk space is currently critical (no way it's going to be able to handle the temp files created). Long overdue for a total backup and cleanout. :blah:
You'd first have to admit publicly that you are too chicken to re-play/play? the bad endings! :p (lol jk)
:shaking: OKAY YES I'm a giant chicken. It would be "Play." by the way. Don't get me wrong. I love this stuff. Should be noted I STILL haven't beaten Amnesia: The Dark Descent yet. I love it, but dlkjf;jksdaklfjsda;fjsd;kljkjfdjf;lsa *huddles and rocks in chair a little* When I played Transcend, I had nightmares for a while. I'd close my eyes, start to nod off and:
GTF PEGASUS TWO INCHES FROM FACE
... ... ... Screw this. I'm going in. Fixing FS2 install. Still can't FRAPS it (my FRAPS sucks anyway), running on an all nighter right now [zero sleep]...so...this is clearly THE BEST TIME! It'll be like a true insan1ty smiulati0n#### connection terminated . spurious interrupt terminal 214-B #xt91-4140-#uf#fk00000he710##### NO CARRIER
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It's not that scary, specially when you see the images out of context, I just did. Hell, one of them actually looks kinda like a potential wallpaper for my PC. :nod:
PS: The first flash you get at the void is actually pretty awesome, want me to attach it? ;7
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PS: The first flash you get at the void is actually pretty awesome, want me to attach it? ;7
You should. In fact, I would like to see all of the flashes, but I have no idea how to view UT using FRED...
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Use VPView to extract files from the vp's.
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I recommend listening to horror2, on a loop, while you look at them.
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Did I get them all? (http://www.mediafire.com/file/fmald9901gxq388/Flashes.zip) I have no idea when each triggers. And how do you get the BSOD? I was sure I got it, but I can't find a reference to it in the mission file. :confused:
Oh yeah and the red flashes don't look quite right on 1920x1200 resolution.
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When I played Transcend, I had nightmares for a while. I'd close my eyes, start to nod off and...
Don't worry. There's absolutely nothing in UT like that... :lol:
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The blue screen of death was a 'beta' placeholder for when you turned around.
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I also wondered what that was. It could have been a very harsh and brutal fourth wall breaking... with a shriek (or a giant beep). What a jumpscare that would be.
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I also wondered what that was. It could have been a very harsh and brutal fourth wall breaking... with a shriek (or a giant beep). What a jumpscare that would be.
That was the original concept, but after a bunch of testing (and the obvious issue of non-Windows platforms) we decided it just didn't work. Plus the BSOD doesn't even look the same across all platforms!
A video card failure pattern might have been a good time though
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A video card failure pattern might have been a good time though
That would certainly have made me **** my pants since my current computer setups are still fairly new and untested.
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Ok so I finally finished Tenebra.
e: Ok, so an initial thought that I don't think anyone here has produced so far IIRC. The Vishnans talk about an apocalypse and how the Protocol was forged then, and then mention the "Summed Psyche". There is random mentioning of the noosphere and so on (when the Shivan node first mentioned how the noosphere was being subverted, I thought it was talking about how the Vishnans were subverting humanity).
Now, I had misread the term "Apocalypse" as if a great galactic war had surged eons ago and to prevent it a new "Protocol" was created. I was obviously confusing two very different events (the "Dawn War" and the "Apocalypse"). Apocalypse is not, in its original greek, a "disastrous destructive event" per se. It actually translates to a "disclosure of knowledge", or in more biblical terms, Revelation of the Ultimate Truth (and thus the end of the world and so on). Right afterwards the Shivan refer to the death of Brahmans and the "making" of the Vishnans.
So here's my initial interpretation: After this (still to understand) first "Dawn War", the Brahmans reached enlightenment. With it, they created the first noosphere, and this event is referenced as "the apocalypse". We can think of it as a special case of Singularity, which involves the control over Subspace (and therefore time and therefore travel between universes and other crazy abilities we already know of) by a gestalt composed of the entirety of the Brahman species' consciousness. That thing is now called "Vishnans". The Vishnans were "made" in that event and thus the "Brahmans" disappeared. The Vishnans are the transcended Brahmans.
The Shivans have a similar "anima". We could speculate (or not) if this anima was born out as an autonomic response to the sudden appearance of the Vishnans (as a kind of a super strategy against "godlike" creatures like the Vishnans), but then we also know that the Vishnans seem to try to convince the Shivans they speak for the Terminal Protocol, which is something that apparently the Shivans think is very important. However, they also reach the conclusion that the Protocol has failed. Failed to do what? The Brahmans' bidding. So the Shivans are both serving the Brahmans' wishes (which would indicate they are a creation of them) and are also eternal ("calculated", "eternal").
There's an apparent contradiction in here. It may be solved in two ways. The first involves a bit of convoluted writing. Here it goes. The definition of the Vishnans is one that allows them to observe the "past, present and future" all alike. Thus, even if they "came about" when Brahmans transcended, they can "see" and "influence" at every single time in the universe as they please. And they can calculate a new "species" that lives "forever" in this spacetime like a supercharged Von Neumman like species with "immune system" characteristics as MP outlined a few days back. In this fashion the Shivans could have been both eternal and a creation of the Brahmans. This is, however, inconsistent with the fatalistic observation by the Shivans (they watched Brahmans come and go, they will have watched the Vishnans go away too).
The second way is to say that the Shivans are indeed independent from the Brahmans, but their objectives aligned against a common threat. The threat of the Cognocide.
So, finally, we get to my wild speculation. The First Apocalypse was the Singularity of the Brahmans. It was a marvelous creation, that of the Vishnans. The Vishnans now exist in a transcendental state, in subspace no less, within an enlightened "noosphere" called "Summed Psyche". The unexpected side effect was that this event "ended the world" for the conscient beings all over the galaxy/universe. It was a "cognicaust". And so the Brahmans died. And for whatever reason, the Shivans didn't like this event at all. And so a Protocol was formed between the Vishnans and the Shivans, a kind of a deal that allowed the Vishnans to capture whatever kind souls would reach enlightenment to its Summed Psyche before they triggered a "second apocalypse", and allowed the Shivans to destroy whatever infecting "Hegemon" the Vishnans would deem "unworthy" before those triggered their own apocalypse.
Since the war started in Sol, the Vishnans finally gave up completely and ordered the cull. However, the Shivans are not playing their part due to an external heuristic. Some guessed this "external heuristic" was Bosch. I haven't decided yet. What is striking is that the Federation's "ultimate" weapon is nicknamed "Shambhala" whose wikipedia page is phenomenal. I could go out on a limb and say that it would be so ****ing cool that Shambhala was a Singularityzation machine, thus provoking the second incursion of the Apocalypse. However, this would be an affront to both Shivan and Vishnans, so it's somewhat inconsistent with the Vishnans refusal to mess up with the Elders to stop it from happening or the Shivans apparently being all-okay with it.
Still, I think the morality play here will be about humanity's redemption, about the ideas of the singularity, the danger of complete Cognicide (local or universal), the questionable morality and rationality of the Vishnan gatekeepers and the utter amorality and unconsciousness of the Shivans.
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Posting in major spoilers thread before finishing for shaaaaaaaaaaame.
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I've had a hunch for a while now that Shambhala is some device for uploading humans (most of them? the elders? just one? I don't know) to the Summed Psyche to join the Vishnan collective being. But, eh, that would be a little strange given Luis Dias' proposed scenario about the genesis of the Vishnans, which is another thing I've guessed at. Given the now-overt transhumanist themes present in BP it seems highly likely. Or maybe it's a Nagari weapon? Imagine if one side of the war had Shivan-level access to Nagari. To be able to just... open someone's mind like a book. Remember the UT scene with the Herc II from the Aquitaine's Kappa wing? They opened his mind and saw through his eyes. That would end the war in a day. Unlimited powaaaaaaah. :drevil:
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Yes Leeko, your first idea was somewhat what I was trying to describe. A backdoor for access to the Summed Psyche. It's cloudy how exactly this door would stop the Shivan threat.
I guess it would just preclude it, by uploading the entire human (and perhaps vasudan) race to the Summed Psyche, the Shivans would no longer be a threat to them. Many problems here, if the intent is to save the entirety of the human race (and the zods why not). First of all, it's a very immoral initiative, to force every human (and zod) to be uploaded to the Summed Psyche; second, it's verissimilitude is akin to Mass Effect 3's Green Option, i.e., hogwash ad-hoc and deus-ex-machina level. OTOH, it could be a more "reasonable" project of uploading just a few thousand / million to the Psyche.
There's also the problematic of it not being exactly a weapon. And why would Calder ever fight for this scenario, so grim and full of cynicism towards all those who either are culled or immorally pulled out of their bodies? Why would Laporte? Why would we even want humanity to get into a Psyche so commited to wipe out humanity in the first place?
A solution would be a kind of an "infiltration", to do what (analogously) Ken may be doing within the Shivan network: to create an alternative heuristic that saves humanity and the zods.
Very convoluted.
Your second idea is much more straight, more Fedayeen-like, use the Nagari network to infiltrate Tevs (or cut their consciences using the Great Darkness) and thus end the war. It is still an immoral path, and the Vishnan might not like this abuse of their networks.
What we have to do is consider the Elders stance with the Vishnans, and what they both intended in the production of the machine. Why the design is somewhat altered (Ken said so), by whose faction, and for what purpose. I speculate a machine with a specific design that attempts to appease some sort of a Vishnan goal but which will be hacked by Laporte with a precision strike to change it against both the Elders' and the Vishnans' wishes. More in tune with Ken.
Which means a moral decision at the end. It pains me, but there's a possibility of a (near?) final mission where you get to this Crucible Shambhala, and you get to decide the final outcome of humanity: will it be a RED ending, a PURPLE one, or the glorious amazing THIRD one?
I'm jesting. Battuta et al know better :lol:
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Ever since WiH1 I was convinced that the Fererations final contingency involves summoning Vishnans to Sol. It's still not out of the question given information from Tenebra.
I'm not sure how Nagari itself could be used as a weapon. The way I understood it the Shivans could only gaze into the minds of a minority of Nagari sensitive Terran pilots not any human being they choose to.
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Luis, If you heaven't, read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalki
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I always suspected that Shambhala was a device used to control subspace. I got this from the various hints dropped in game such as
"What good would a weapon have done us? You must understand that Shambhala is an answer to a problem that predates this war by decades."
"The Elders cooperated with the Vishnans in an effort to move humanity towards enlightenment - an unknown form of cognitive and social re-engineering, perhaps culminating in merger with the Vishnan subspace psyche"
Reading about Shambhala on wikipedia describes a fabulous kingdom of whose reality is visionary or spiritual as much as physical or geographic. This looks to be the noosphere - perhaps shambala is the device that will take Sol into the Vishnan's home dimension, a dimension where the shivans cannot reach or maybe a device that can control subspace preventing hostile forces from traversing subspace in Sol. If so it is easy to understand why the security council would want to prevent this from being developed as whatever happened they would have to surrender to the Elder's will in order to be saved from the Shivans.
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I'm not sure how Nagari itself could be used as a weapon. The way I understood it the Shivans could only gaze into the minds of a minority of Nagari sensitive Terran pilots not any human being they choose to.
Except Nagari-sensitive people are the ones the Shivans choose to.
It's not that the Shivans can mess with people because they're Nagari-sensitive... instead, the people are Nagari-sensitive because the Shivans messed with them.
Nagari-sensitivity is not natural, not random, and is not something any human being or Vasudan is born with. It's a result of contact with one of the two uber-races.
I believe Ken spells this out in "Universal Truth".
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I always suspected that Shambhala was a device used to control subspace. I got this from the various hints dropped in game such as
"What good would a weapon have done us? You must understand that Shambhala is an answer to a problem that predates this war by decades."
"The Elders cooperated with the Vishnans in an effort to move humanity towards enlightenment - an unknown form of cognitive and social re-engineering, perhaps culminating in merger with the Vishnan subspace psyche"
Reading about Shambhala on wikipedia describes a fabulous kingdom of whose reality is visionary or spiritual as much as physical or geographic. This looks to be the noosphere - perhaps shambala is the device that will take Sol into the Vishnan's home dimension, a dimension where the shivans cannot reach or maybe a device that can control subspace preventing hostile forces from traversing subspace in Sol. If so it is easy to understand why the security council would want to prevent this from being developed as whatever happened they would have to surrender to the Elder's will in order to be saved from the Shivans.
The word "noosphere" piqued my memory, reminding me of a word I'd seen before. Nootropics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nootropic) are drugs, supplements, and foods intended to enhance mental functions, with the word itself being derived from the Greek words Ī½ĪæĻ
Ļ nous, or "mind," and ĻĻĪĻĪµĪ¹Ī½ trepein meaning "to bend/turn". So if "noosphere" means "mindsphere", the context it is used in means it almost certainly refers to the Vishnans' subspace/collective psyche.
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Youtube fu. Tracking down the nasheed song in the dreamscape and finally done it, without ever referencing Freespace or BP. Then realized the uploader was .... Darius.
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See here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=83471.msg1667507#msg1667507).
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I wonder how much of a parallel 'The Nothing (click link) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrG-lsrXKRM)' from The Neverending Story might be to the Great Darkness, in similarity. The Nothing was created through apathy, cynicism and the denial of dreams: the refusal to outgrow the status-quo of both life and existence.
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Having read the entries, it seems to me that the tech room entry of the "Great Darkness" may not be a representation of an entity at all, a "worm" or a "parasite" or any other "thing" that creeps in
fantasia Nagari or realspace or whatever.
If not for a direct reference of a "Great Darkness" coming by the Great Keeper in AoA, I'd say that this entry is only an opportunity by the writers to make the players directly question the Fermi Paradox. Why are the skies silent? Why is the universe an apparent wasteland? Why is the universe a "great darkness"?
I really enjoyed that connection Sara, but I don't think BP writers are taking this story in such an allegorical manner. They have stated that this is hard sci-fi to the core, and while my childhood would be a lot poorer without Neverending, that story dwells in an extremely poetic, metaphorical and allegorical way.
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An intriguing plot twist (which is something I wanted to make a game around one day) would be that 'the skies' are dark because of a predisposition towards war all life in the universe has.
They care not about learning of alien cultures, opening new ways of thinking, creating new worlds or exploring realms.
It's empty because they kill each other mercilessly instead. No one cares about the mysteries of new worlds, just as we crave for explosions and death of foreign, unknown to us, people in films.
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If not for a direct reference of a "Great Darkness" coming by the Great Keeper in AoA, I'd say that this entry is only an opportunity by the writers to make the players directly question the Fermi Paradox. Why are the skies silent? Why is the universe an apparent wasteland? Why is the universe a "great darkness"?
I'm pretty sure it was confirmed that the "great darkness" in AoA was the Sathanas, not THE Great Darkness.
The Great Darkness is definitely a thing. See the cargo containers in Ken.
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"but do not pretend surprise"
"your creators blundered once"
"unleashed the deepness"
"of the cosmos"
I do not read here a "definitely". I read here a "possibly". I also read here other possibilities. Such as a state of affairs. The Vishnans or the Brahmans ****ed up, and unleashed an holocaust (for example), or unleashed the conditions for subsequent holocausts (for another example). "Your creators" is a strange wording. If this is directed to Laporte, and given the info we have in act 3 that Laporte is a "creation" of Ken + Shivans, then it becomes silly.
But yeah, I am almost convinced.
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The ALLCAPS is the Vishnans, the alllowercase is the Shivans. You need to pay attention to the entire passage and not just the last few lines.
those who walk among infinite worlds must still wage war
The Vishnans are willing to write humanity off simply because of a civil war, so I highly doubt they'd tell Laporte as much.
do not be lulled by the soft words of mysticism and spirituality
A warning to Laporte to beware the Elders and their Vishnan influences
our purpose is unclear the ancient design fails
The Vishnans have violated the Shivan's understanding of the Protocol. The Shivans are now questioning their place in the universe.
leaving us to preserve and our brothers in dance to their frigid watch at the border where worlds fray and blur together
brothers, brothers paramatma! why are you so cold? you tend to the walls and the clockwork while we, the gardeners execute your will upon all the life within.
The Vishnans are the ones who really deal with interdimensional stuff. The Shivans just maintain and cull the life within each universe.
you maintain the old plan but do not pretend surprise when we cast it aside
After Universal Truth, the Shivans have rejected the Vishnans and now pursue their own agenda outside the Brahman's design.
As another point of note, Ken is very firm about the fact that Laporte should never, ever think about the Great Darkness again and refuses to speak any more on the matter. If the Great Darkness were some sort of philosophical metaphor Bosch would go off on a whole monologue about it. It's something real, something tangible that drives Laporte's puny human brain off a cliff and terrifies even the godkiller Shivans to silence.
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It's Alpha 1 - the one thing the Shivans could never stop
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The whole thing's clearly a reference to Zoroastrianism. It's totally Ahriman, guys. :p
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It's an anti-sentient weapon. If you're connected to the nagari network and you think about it, it kills you. And it killed everyone in the Dawn War or First Apocalypse or whatever.
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Or some race ,maybe the Brahmas, got impatient and tried to trigger some mass-evolution into Nagari existence, botching things up. It's not impossible that the Shivans do not know everything that transpired either after all. It's easy to assume they know (and told) us everything, while they may not.
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Or some race ,maybe the Brahmas, got impatient and tried to trigger some mass-evolution into Nagari existence, botching things up. It's not impossible that the Shivans do not know everything that transpired either after all. It's easy to assume they know (and told) us everything, while they may not.
After finishing WiH:P3, that's actually the notion I was really left with:
If Bei is the Vishnans representative, and received what seems to be an unreliable account of Vishnan-Shivan communication at the end of AoA, then it seems a lot like Laporte is the Shivan counter-move in that engagement, with the whole WiH saga seems to be about her becoming very much more Shivan-like - brutal, decisive and disengaged from her humanity. There's no reason to think they gave her a more reliable account of events, and it seems like they got everything they wanted as a result: someone who believes the Shivans should be protected, and distrusts everything Vishnan.
It seems telling to me that the whole of the Fedayeen was centered around a super-computer which was actually an allegedly dead Shivan mind, and as a result there whole modus-operandi was very Shivan-like in contrast to the Vishnans.
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I actually got the feeling that the Shivans wanted to have Laport as a counter for Bei, but Ken managed to take over and is now playing somewhere in the middleground, between the two old races, trying desperately to prevent mankind from being destroyed or absorbed.
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Yes, there's obviously a symmetry between Laporte and Bei, cleverly sidetracked or confused by the inclusion of Ken.
I also found the Vishnan alledged behavior lacking. So we are led to believe that the Vishnan "plan" included sidetracking the 14th battlegroup into another universe, they manipulated them and denied the Shivans their cull. Then they made them comeback, and immediately their plan failed. I mean, it took 2 minutes to become an abysmal case study on how *not* to perform psychological surgery. And then, the cull is called by the Vishnans and now it is the Shivans who don't want to do it.
Mom and dad are having a really hard time figuring out how to deal with this rabid toddler.
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Yes, there's obviously a symmetry between Laporte and Bei, cleverly sidetracked or confused by the inclusion of Ken.
I also found the Vishnan alledged behavior lacking. So we are led to believe that the Vishnan "plan" included sidetracking the 14th battlegroup into another universe, they manipulated them and denied the Shivans their cull. Then they made them comeback, and immediately their plan failed. I mean, it took 2 minutes to become an abysmal case study on how *not* to perform psychological surgery. And then, the cull is called by the Vishnans and now it is the Shivans who don't want to do it.
Mom and dad are having a really hard time figuring out how to deal with this rabid toddler.
I'm not sure their plan failed immediately. They successfully prevented the immediate surrender of the UEF.
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I'm also not sure their plan failed. I am saying that if we are to believe the narrative that the Vishnans ordered the cull right when the war started (and thus stopped talking to the UEF), then their plain did fail immediately.
This is why I said "alledged". Because it makes little sense. What we know for sure is that there is a "cull order" in effect 18 months after the war started. Why? If the purpose of the detour was to give the UEF some fighting chance, then they got it. Why should they be punished for being successful at defending their system? Vishnan behavior seems contradictory at some angles. I get the feeling that once I figure out their behavior, I'll have solved major puzzles in the story.
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Yes, there's obviously a symmetry between Laporte and Bei, cleverly sidetracked or confused by the inclusion of Ken.
I also found the Vishnan alledged behavior lacking. So we are led to believe that the Vishnan "plan" included sidetracking the 14th battlegroup into another universe, they manipulated them and denied the Shivans their cull. Then they made them comeback, and immediately their plan failed. I mean, it took 2 minutes to become an abysmal case study on how *not* to perform psychological surgery. And then, the cull is called by the Vishnans and now it is the Shivans who don't want to do it.
Mom and dad are having a really hard time figuring out how to deal with this rabid toddler.
I'm also not sure their plan failed. I am saying that if we are to believe the narrative that the Vishnans ordered the cull right when the war started (and thus stopped talking to the UEF), then their plain did fail immediately.
This is why I said "alledged". Because it makes little sense. What we know for sure is that there is a "cull order" in effect 18 months after the war started. Why? If the purpose of the detour was to give the UEF some fighting chance, then they got it. Why should they be punished for being successful at defending their system? Vishnan behavior seems contradictory at some angles. I get the feeling that once I figure out their behavior, I'll have solved major puzzles in the story.
Yeah, I got that feeling too. Given how the Vishnans have been behaving and what we know about them, it makes them come across as stupid and incompetent. They're either incapable of realizing that problems can be solved by talking about them in a mature and civilized fashion, or something is keeping them from doing so. If they're capable of operating on a scale we can't even comprehend, then why haven't they manifested in our universe and explained what their reasons are?
From what I've gathered, the "Dawn War" is something that happened eons ago between two or more Kardashev-3 or higher civilizations that caused unimaginably horrific destruction across the cosmos, and their war created/unleashed something that now wanders the Nagari psychic network which Ken and maybe even the Shivans and Vishnans are unspeakably terrified of. The Shivans and Vishnans seek to prevent this by culling species that they believe are too violent and would eventually do the same thing. The threshold for culling is apparently very low, since Humanity and the Vasudans had explored less than thirty star systems by the time FS1 occurs.
The problem lies with the fact that the Shivans never bothered to communicate with the Terrans or Vasudans. They never explained why they were behaving like a bunch of omnicidal maniacs. If they'd explained things to us, or just swooped in with a fleet that blotted out the sun and told us to knock it off, we probably would have listened. Then there's the Vishnans. How, exactly, is the current war between the GTVA and UEF "a sign of unforgivable failure"? Ubuntu is implied to have been influenced by the Vishnans, and it's a great philosophy. Before the war started, Sol was apparently a wonderful place to live thanks to Ubuntu. But the GTA is right about it having no answer to the Shivans. The reason the war happened in the first place is because the GTA sees Ubuntu as a nearly suicidal philosophy in a universe inhabited by hordes of xenocidal aliens, because as far as they know the Shivans are going to come and try to kill us all again and Ubuntu will make it easy for them to succeed.
The GTA is copying Shivan tactics because those tactics work. War has always been fought that way. Their military buildup is due to them wanting to not be exterminated by the Shivans. That's what you're supposed to do when a neighboring city/nation/galactic empire wants to kill you and destroy everything you love. The war in Sol is happening because the GTA sees Ubuntu as a philosophy that will lead to the extinction of the Human species. Because of the Shivans, we don't get to have a civilization where the peace, compassion, and enlightenment of Ubuntu can flourish. Because of their ****ing murderous rampages, the GTVA lives in fear of an alien juggernaut that stands ready to annihilate their civilization. And to top it all off, it looks like the Vishnans are trying to punish them for trying to survive as best they know how.
It's like they're trying to punish us for being intelligent and rational. :banghead:
Why, in God's name, can't they just talk to us straight? Are they incapable of figuring out how to talk to us primitives? Are the Shivans and Vishnans so ****ing stupid that they can't even even figure out how to use subspace or, godforbid, radio to talk to us, or is there actually a legitimate reason they can't just behave like reasonable adults and use their words?! :hopping::mad:
And yeah, I'm pissed about it! I know that there's probably a reason why they haven't talked to us about it straight, that I don't have all of the information and that Blue Planet's the writers aren't going to let us down, but I'm still mad at these egotistical Vorlonoids! The way the Vishnans have been behaving is like the white phosphorus scene in "Spec Ops: The Line", where the game tries to make you look like a murdering bastard for using it, but never gives you the option not to! Instead of inspiring awe and wonder, the Shivans and Vishnans are coming across as capricious, arbitrary, unjust, unforgiving - and possibly malevolent - bullies and control freaks!
*deep breath*
Okay, rant over. It's not as coherent or eloquent as I'd like, but I needed to get that off my chest.
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The shivans don't care about humanity understanding why they are being culled, they just care about the outcome of their pressure. "Strength earns survival".
As to why this is the case, I don't know, the shivans could simply have wiped us out when we crossed the threshold of the protocol's boundaries. "Selective pressure for resumption of panontic function" comes to mind but beyond making the races realize that if they don't stand together there's no hope of survival it doesn't make much sense to me considering you are not really teaching them anything, just because there's a bigger threat out there, doesn't mean that they are enlightened (and note that humans, except for laporte don't trully know the extent of shivan power, in their minds they are still an enemy that can be beaten).
Unless... I'm completely missinterpreting the above quote and what the shivans were saying is that they had to excert pressure on whoever "won" the dawn war for any other form of life to arise from its ashes.
As for the vishnan, well.. they might write off humanity as a failure because they fail to comprehend individuality. They (presumably) sent the expeditionary force to the paralel universe to show them what would happen if they didn't cooperate, that failed but not entirely, lots of people defected to the UEF but for them that might not matter, for them not thinking as a whole (like say.. ubuntu would) is already a sign of failure.
I've kind of given up trying to figure out the great darkness without more information.
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They aren't benevolent nor malevolent. They just care about problems of higher scale. "Explaining" things to terrans and vasudans would accomplish nothing I think, and it could only make matters worse (they would expose themselves and their agendas, they would be fragile to rebeld terrorist guerrilla tactics from minor species, etc.). Also, as the Vishnan cleverly put it, Revelation demands necessity. We find none. Why should they reveal their purposes when they can just manipulate instead?
I'm more worried about the inconsistencies I've outlined. They are the key to understand future events in BP2 and BP3.
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So, according to your logic, Valiran, the Vishnans should just come and say: "Yo guys! We need assimilate your noosphere into our Megatranscognitive network to save the universe. You cool with that?"
Aside: Nagari is not magic, it's information downloaded directly into the neurons. It's achieved by quantum vibrations. For all we know the GD is just a giant scareware SPAM virus. :P
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Aight, I just finished reading this thread from start to finish. Jeez guys :)
The story is mind-bending, and the fact that we're discussing possible outcomes and trying to come up with explanation to story elements that currently don't add up yet is also amazing!
A couple of points, in no particular order that makes sense - please correct me if I'm assuming too much, or interpreting the story incorrectly:
- in AoA, we witnessed a conversation between the Vs and Ss, and then again in BP2 with some more granularity. Both of those discussions indicated that the Vs and Ss have a major dispute in interpreting the Protocol, at least they don't agree on the actions that need to be taken, that are, we think, aimed at the same goal (whatever exactly that might be, like avoiding the GD)
- based on the AoA discussions, the Vs somehow 'banished' the Shivans, or at least expelled them, not sure how this has been accomplished, but the Vs clearly have some sort of a hold over the Ss, otherwise this discussion would have taken quite a different curve
- It would be fair to assume that the Vs interfered with the 14th transit to Earth to displace them in the alternate universe, and to have that task force abandon their original objectives
- Given that the Vs are a super-advanced race with intellect that can not be comprehended by humans, it had to be clear to them that simply convincing the 14th to switch to the Feds, will not change the GTVAs intentions of returning to Earth in force and forcing the UEF to surrender
- All the posts I read so far (correct me if I'm wrong) assume that events did not evolve as the Vs planned, and that's why they 'ordered a cull'. I think we're not giving the Vs enough credit to their intellect and capability to predict future events. Even the Fedayeen have computational capabilities that could have foretold events as they happened, and an entire V collective failed to do so? Something doesn't add up.
- Moving back to the current (BP2) relationship between Vs and Ss, what is more likely? That after having a major falling out between the two, the Ss suddenly started obeying the Vs again, and started a culling, but Ken stops it? Or that 'external heuristic injection' is not Ken at all, but someone else? Like the Vs? For all we know, the Ss are still pursuing their original intention in AoA and trying to cull the human race. We're assuming that Bosch is not just a part of the S collective that is observing and just trying to warn the UEF through LaPorte how to avoid this, but that he actually has the power to interfere with the 'programming' of the S collective. Maybe we're assuming too much here?
In any case, there are still a lot of unknowns in the story, and 1+1 are not always 2 (yet). That's what makes this story sooo freakishly scary and awesome.
Feel free to argue with and dispute whatever is above, would love to read more of your thoughts.
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- All the posts I read so far (correct me if I'm wrong) assume that events did not evolve as the Vs planned, and that's why they 'ordered a cull'. I think we're not giving the Vs enough credit to their intellect and capability to predict future events. Even the Fedayeen have computational capabilities that could have foretold events as they happened, and an entire V collective failed to do so? Something doesn't add up.
I'd imagine it's easier to predict the actions of your own species, rather than some species that doesn't even think the same way you do.
It's quite possible that the Human mind is as incomprehensible to the Vishnans and Shivans, as their minds are to us Humans. They might be able to look at our past actions and reactions to certain stimuli and situations and try to predict the future from that, but can they really understand our minds, emotions and motivations? If not, their predictions are boud to be imperfect.
It also possible that the whole stunt with the 14th BG was never meant to be a solution in itself, but rather a test or second chance.... one we seem to have blown somehow.... or maybe it's part of the plan to appear that way.
- Moving back to the current (BP2) relationship between Vs and Ss, what is more likely? That after having a major falling out between the two, the Ss suddenly started obeying the Vs again, and started a culling, but Ken stops it? Or that 'external heuristic injection' is not Ken at all, but someone else? Like the Vs? For all we know, the Ss are still pursuing their original intention in AoA and trying to cull the human race. We're assuming that Bosch is not just a part of the S collective that is observing and just trying to warn the UEF through LaPorte how to avoid this, but that he actually has the power to interfere with the 'programming' of the S collective. Maybe we're assuming too much here?
We don't know if the Shivans in our universe even know about what happened in the other Universe. It's possible that "over here" the Shivans and Vishnans never had a falling out and that their arguing is just constructive discussion on what to do.
And I'm pretty sure that Ken is not a part of the Shivan collective.
Since we already saw two quite different versions of the talk between Shiva and Vishnu (when Laporte tells Bei what she saw he was surprised and in denial about the version of events she saw), we really can't make any assumptions on what they were really talking about. For all we know they just said: "Let's make a bet wether they can make it to the node before we destroy them. The winner is paying for dinner!".... Okay that is pretty much impossible, but you get the point.
It's even possible that the whole thing was staged and the Shivans only attacked the 14th in order to make the Vishnans appear the benevolent saviours.
In any case, there are still a lot of unknowns in the story, and 1+1 are not always 2 (yet).
That's the beauty of it. It keeps us hooked for the next release and gives us plenty of opportunity to work those grey cells in speculation :D
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From what I understood a lot of the Fedayeen's predictive power comes from knowing how individuals would react. Knowing Lopez would not sacrifice her crew, knowing Steele would come to her aid or not depending on the threat. I'd be surprised if the V's and S's could predict anything so,subtle about us.
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- All the posts I read so far (correct me if I'm wrong) assume that events did not evolve as the Vs planned, and that's why they 'ordered a cull'. I think we're not giving the Vs enough credit to their intellect and capability to predict future events. Even the Fedayeen have computational capabilities that could have foretold events as they happened, and an entire V collective failed to do so? Something doesn't add up.
You're wrong:
I'm also not sure their plan failed. I am saying that if we are to believe the narrative that the Vishnans ordered the cull right when the war started (and thus stopped talking to the UEF), then their plain did fail immediately.
This is why I said "alledged". Because it makes little sense. What we know for sure is that there is a "cull order" in effect 18 months after the war started. Why? If the purpose of the detour was to give the UEF some fighting chance, then they got it. Why should they be punished for being successful at defending their system? Vishnan behavior seems contradictory at some angles. I get the feeling that once I figure out their behavior, I'll have solved major puzzles in the story.
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Luis Dias - wrong about what? I'm merely asking questions.
OK - so we're assuming that the Vs and Ss collective minds do not span across universes? Wouldn't that assume that the 14th transit to the alternate universe was a coincidence?
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And Luis - re-reading our posts, don't we both believe that the Vs still don't want the humans to be eradicated? If we say, their plan hasn't failed, that means they still believe we can be redeemed, so why would they order the cull? That's what doesn't add up to me. Well, one of the things :)
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Ahem.
The theory that the Vishnans and Shivans do not communicate across interdimensional borders does not hold water.
Both are entities that, for the most part, are native to subspace. They occupy the thing that binds universes together, so they very definitely know what is going on across the barrier, as it were.
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Ahem.
The theory that the Vishnans and Shivans do not communicate across interdimensional borders does not hold water.
Both are entities that, for the most part, are native to subspace. They occupy the thing that binds universes together, so they very definitely know what is going on across the barrier, as it were.
I think this is a reasonable supposition, but nothing we've seen in the campaigns so far has definitively proven it...except perhaps the fact that Ken was perfectly aware of what happened during Universal Truth.
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Oh, come on. The theory is that there's no communication between universes. I would present a simple counterpoint to that, namely that interdimensional travel is possible, and arguably even easy. Assuming that the Shivans and Vishnans, who both have a greater mastery of subspace than humanity/vasudanity, are unaware of this fact or unable to exploit it strikes me as a grave underestimation of their powers.
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Ahem.
The theory that the Vishnans and Shivans do not communicate across interdimensional borders does not hold water.
Both are entities that, for the most part, are native to subspace. They occupy the thing that binds universes together, so they very definitely know what is going on across the barrier, as it were.
I think this is a reasonable supposition, but nothing we've seen in the campaigns so far has definitively proven it...except perhaps the fact that Ken was perfectly aware of what happened during Universal Truth.
GB - that's true.
I'm still thinking that the Vs and Ss are following the same Protocol, interpreting it differently. However, I think one of the most important things in understanding the story is to fully understand (if that's possible at all) the hierarchy and relationship between the Vs and Ss. That is key. AoA hints at it quite directly, but I think there's a lot more to it than that. There's one contradiction in the story I found, which might be only me not paying attention close enough: In a discussion, Shiva says only the Ss are eternal, and Vs will fall eventually. One of the nodes however reveals that there's a specific point in time when the Ss came to be, at around half the age of the Milky Way galaxy..or is there something I'm missing?
If that's so, on a cosmic scale, that's not that long, we're talking billions and billions of years before and after that.
Also, why do the Vs pursue Laporte so viciously through the Nagari network? Because she is identified as a S avatar of sorts? If that's so, was it really Bei that she talked to in the last mission? If yes, I find it very difficult to understand how he couldn't get in touch with the Vs, but interfere with the link between Ken and Laporte.
Daaamn, too many questions :) Gief act 4 NAU!!!!
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Oh, come on. The theory is that there's no communication between universes. I would present a simple counterpoint to that, namely that interdimensional travel is possible, and arguably even easy. Assuming that the Shivans and Vishnans, who both have a greater mastery of subspace than humanity/vasudanity, are unaware of this fact or unable to exploit it strikes me as a grave underestimation of their powers.
Completely with you there!
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The Shivans are 'eternal.' The date given is the date they intersected with our world line. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_line)
My understanding is that the Shivans first came to 'our' universe that date. They are that old in our universe.
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If that's so, was it really Bei that she talked to in the last mission? If yes, I find it very difficult to understand how he couldn't get in touch with the Vs, but interfere with the link between Ken and Laporte.
For this one I can easily find a possible answers:
The Vishnans don't want to talk with Humans for the time being and thus blocked the connection (or they only listen attentively without answering, while they wait for something). Ken is communicating with Laporte and thus the connection is obviously open and Bei (wether by design or chance) somehow tapped into it.
Of course it's also possible that it isn't Bei himself. It could have been some kind of echo or memory of him that remained with the Vishnans, even after they broke contact.... or even just a Vishnan pretending to be Bei, in order to manipulate Laporte.
Something that I'd like to know in regard of Bei is wether he's able to communicate with the Hammer of Light representative.
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It's like they're trying to punish us for being intelligent and rational. :banghead:
Why, in God's name, can't they just talk to us straight? Are they incapable of figuring out how to talk to us primitives? Are the Shivans and Vishnans so ****ing stupid that they can't even even figure out how to use subspace or, godforbid, radio to talk to us, or is there actually a legitimate reason they can't just behave like reasonable adults and use their words?! :hopping::mad:
And yeah, I'm pissed about it! I know that there's probably a reason why they haven't talked to us about it straight, that I don't have all of the information and that Blue Planet's the writers aren't going to let us down, but I'm still mad at these egotistical Vorlonoids! The way the Vishnans have been behaving is like the white phosphorus scene in "Spec Ops: The Line", where the game tries to make you look like a murdering bastard for using it, but never gives you the option not to! Instead of inspiring awe and wonder, the Shivans and Vishnans are coming across as capricious, arbitrary, unjust, unforgiving - and possibly malevolent - bullies and control freaks!
Well, you have every reason to be mad at them, but there is another interesting point to it: What exactly IS being rational? Rational behaviour is behaviour that is learned, known to require some skills in reasoning and intelligence, and most importantly: It is behaviour that has been shown to work. Who knows what goes for rational behaviour in the realm of thought the Vs&Ss inhabit? Maybe there were some parallel universes where they tried that and it didn't work/made things even worse somehow, conditioning them to think that it isn't worth a try. Or maybe they don't do so because of some experience they had with the ancients? There could be several things prompting them to dismiss direct communication like that.
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that is learned
Not really. Inductive logic has a gap. Past behavior and events are not required to predict future behavior and events. They often do, but not always. A truly rational analysis acknowledges this.
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If the Vishnans and Shivans seem uncaring, even malicious, it's because they are.
They are looking for something in humanity, something partially inherent and partially emergent, and they seem to eschew direct intervention to get it. The reason might be that taking a direct influence may be counterproductive to their goals. Instead of getting the qualities they seek in a natural fashion (even if the process is accelerated through careful and subtle intervention), they would be getting something forced, something that is a "best fit" for the requirements but that may ultimately fail because of the process of its creation.
EDIT:
Neither of them cares about individual humans, or even groups of humans. They have a list of requirements they need humanity to fulfill if humanity is to be allowed a continuing existence. They need humanity to fill these requirements by themselves, without much external prompting, since artificial constructs are always more fragile and less able to sustain themselves than "natural" systems.
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Please don't everybody start quoting that as BP Canon tho
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TOO LATE :lol:
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FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON
Neither is IRC
the website doesn't look too good either
sorry
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Man if I was one of you BP badged guys I'd troll this forum so hard....
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You mean, like what we already do? :P
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FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON
Neither is IRC
the website doesn't look too good either
sorry
Nothing is BP canon
The BP campaigns are actually fanfics
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You mean, like what we already do? :P
Man I see through you like glass.
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that is learned
Not really. Inductive logic has a gap. Past behavior and events are not required to predict future behavior and events. They often do, but not always. A truly rational analysis acknowledges this.
Indeed, but the ability to use this logic is still learned. Also, I'd say that all the issues here go beyond anything that is purely logical. But this would lead to another completely indipendent discussion about philosophy in general.
If the Vishnans and Shivans seem uncaring, even malicious, it's because they are.
They are looking for something in humanity, something partially inherent and partially emergent, and they seem to eschew direct intervention to get it. The reason might be that taking a direct influence may be counterproductive to their goals. Instead of getting the qualities they seek in a natural fashion (even if the process is accelerated through careful and subtle intervention), they would be getting something forced, something that is a "best fit" for the requirements but that may ultimately fail because of the process of its creation.
That's of course another piece of the picture. Sure, they may be able to see that talking it out in an open and transparent way is a possible solution to certain problems, but would it even achieve what they are truly looking for? And if not, any "solution" that ends human existence is probably just as good as any to them.
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FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON
Neither is IRC
the website doesn't look too good either
sorry
Nothing is BP canon
The BP campaigns are actually fanfics
Fanfics of a fanfic. And one might argue that Freespace is a fanfic of space, so a fanfic of a fanfic of a fanfic.
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Many Greek myths are fanfic!
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So Bosch is Helen?
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So Bosch is Helen?
Most definitely. We can call that one canon.
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FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON
Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. ;7
EDIT: Self defeating post Darius? If forums posts are not canon, then your post is not canon as well. Which makes forum posts canon. (http://www.deviantart.com/download/343733354/study_of_a_negative_singularity_by_fractamonium-d5onecq.png) That makes your post canon and hence forums posts not canon. (http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/159/f/8/from_a_singularity___fractal_art_by_ikill_animation-d52sshx.png) Which means your post is not canon and this forums posts are canon... (http://psychesingularity.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/consciousness-singularity.jpg)
Seems like you dug (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tznAmKo1y8k/SmBwUAjt3NI/AAAAAAAAIjc/qgGm4zPY7bQ/s400/fractal03.PNG) your own grave here! (http://www.skytopia.com/project/fractal/new/q50/MysteryCave-small.jpg)
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FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON
Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. ;7
EDIT: Self defeating post Darius? If forums posts are not canon, then your post is not canon as well. Which makes forum posts canon. (http://www.deviantart.com/download/343733354/study_of_a_negative_singularity_by_fractamonium-d5onecq.png) That makes your post canon and hence forums posts not canon. (http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/159/f/8/from_a_singularity___fractal_art_by_ikill_animation-d52sshx.png) Which means your post is not canon and this forums posts are canon... (http://psychesingularity.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/consciousness-singularity.jpg)
Seems like you dug (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_tznAmKo1y8k/SmBwUAjt3NI/AAAAAAAAIjc/qgGm4zPY7bQ/s400/fractal03.PNG) your own grave here! (http://www.skytopia.com/project/fractal/new/q50/MysteryCave-small.jpg)
Darius -> :snipe:
:wakka:
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Boy, it's so funny and clever* that I almost don't want to point out the elementary logical failure between steps 1 and 2
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horror (http://www.skytopia.com/project/fractal/new/q50/MysteryCave-small.jpg)
stop stop
stop
stop it
stop
please
my brain
please
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Sorry for being late to the discussion, but since we've been talking about Shivans and whatnot: how do the Shivans view "loss"?
I.e., did they care when the Lucifer got destroyed?
Or when the Colossus destroyed the first Sathanas, did they go "darn", or have no reaction at all?
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AFAIK, they have no qualia or consciousness in BP. They don't give a damn as far as we are told.
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Sorry for being late to the discussion, but since we've been talking about Shivans and whatnot: how do the Shivans view "loss"?
I.e., did they care when the Lucifer got destroyed?
Or when the Colossus destroyed the first Sathanas, did they go "darn", or have no reaction at all?
The fact that Shivans almost never withdraw their warships even when destruction is imminent suggests that they are largely indifferent to warship losses. It seems to be hinted at in BP that some of those losses may even be intentional to further long-term goals.
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It seems losses are experience. They learn and adapt from that. "To fight them is to teach them".
However the Lucifer was a bit special, since canon confirms GW Shivans lost coordination after its loss. Nothing similar happened when the Sath was destroyed.
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However the Lucifer was a bit special, since canon confirms GW Shivans lost coordination after its loss. Nothing similar happened when the Sath was destroyed.
I explained that to myself by thinking, that this branch of the Shivans had evolved (possibly when fighting the ancients?) to use a centralised structure, yet when the Lucifer was destroyed, they adapted to the now apparent weakness of such a system, and when they "rebuilt" their fleet, they had evolved to use a different concept.
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There was a holocide anima aboard the Lucifer. Destroying it reverted the local Shivans to basal state reactive behavior.
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And here I was doing my best to keep a little suspense :p
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There was a holocide anima aboard the Lucifer. Destroying it reverted the local Shivans to basal state reactive behavior.
I was wondering whether CASSANDRA was brought to Sol before the collapse of the node or scavenged from the Lucifer wreckage. Now I'm leaning towards the second option. :)
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There was a holocide anima aboard the Lucifer. Destroying it reverted the local Shivans to basal state reactive behavior.
I was wondering whether CASSANDRA was brought to Sol before the collapse of the node or scavenged from the Lucifer wreckage. Now I'm leaning towards the second option. :)
Now that's a very pretty piece of writing that eluded me. Ties up some loose knots while introducing novelties (Cassandra).
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There was a holocide anima aboard the Lucifer. Destroying it reverted the local Shivans to basal state reactive behavior.
So forum posts are canon? Or non canon? Or was this info somewhere in BP that i missed?
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I don't recall any mention of there being multiple of the various kinds of anima in the campaign. Mentioned were the apatic and the holocide, but if the Lucy had one, this means there were at least two holocide anima.
This is interesting information, if true. Sheds slightly more light on the structure of the Shivan network.
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Animae are gathered on an ad-hoc basis to oversee specific tasks. Holocide animae handle culls, while apatic animae have a different specialty.
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Such as being indifferent about the protocol?
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It seems losses are experience. They learn and adapt from that. "To fight them is to teach them".
So Shivans are kind of like the Borg in a sense?
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It seems losses are experience. They learn and adapt from that. "To fight them is to teach them".
So Shivans are kind of like the Borg in a sense?
Looks like it. They may not adapt as quickly as the Borg do, but they're more competent due to not having a single organism in charge of their entire species.
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I'd compare them more closely with the Formics from the Ender's Game series, since the borg don't usually drag boss woman along with them.
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Well, more like not as braindead. I remember there was this theory the reason the Borg are so dumb because their networks have massive latency due to the Borg's insistence that every drone must be linked to the collective, meaning that responding quickly and utilizing tactics/issuing a response to a threat/assimilation/their thought processes are actually much slower than 'real' time, and that assimilation is a response to being unable to devote significant computing to research because of the above.
The Shivans don't have this, and on top of this, they actually possess an understanding of tactics and strategy beyond "walk over to bad thing and shoot/stab it".
Also, the new stuff confirms what I thought about BP Shivans: They're aren't actually a species in the normal sense, and are rather weapons directed by an intelligent entity when deemed necessary.
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Well, more like not as braindead. I remember there was this theory the reason the Borg are so dumb because their networks have massive latency due to the Borg's insistence that every drone must be linked to the collective, meaning that responding quickly and utilizing tactics/issuing a response to a threat/assimilation/their thought processes are actually much slower than 'real' time, and that assimilation is a response to being unable to devote significant computing to research because of the above.
The theory I was going with is that there's only so much the queen can manage at one time. For example, whenever I play GalCiv 2, I eventually reach a point where I control so many planets that I start overlooking things. An improvement here, a shipyard queue there, minor things that still could be managed more effectively if I just didn't have so many of them. I'm thinking that the Borg have the same problem due to having everything controlled by the Queen, there's only so much a single organism can do.
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apatic animae have a different specialty.
Like constructing trans-abyssal gates. :nervous:
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apatic animae have a different specialty.
Like constructing trans-abyssal gates. :nervous:
Seems likely! Another thought I had was that the references to apatic animae in UT2 could hint at their structure/specialization. For example:
apatic anima supervisory issues covert resolution: execute roadblock. generate transabyssal connection. stand by.
apatic anima disseminate: engineer transabyssal gate. strategic transitional event imminent. notify exostotic elements. cognicide contingency to active.
could indicate a hierarchy, not necessarily a command hierarchy - something like the complement system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complement_system)
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I liked the Shivans better when I was just mindlessly shooting them down in droves...
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I doubt you'll ever stop having Shivans to shoot at...
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indeed one of the major revelations about the shivans tenebra gave us is that being shot down in droves is their fundamental mode of combat
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indeed one of the major revelations about the shivans tenebra gave us is that being shot down in droves is their fundamental mode of combat
Which makes you wonder why a civilization as advanced as they are would resort to tactics like that. There must be a reason, and while it's obvious they can afford to lose thousands of fighters and dozens of ships there is such a thing as "efficiency". Destroyed ships can't be used elsewhere, after all.
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The very same mission tells you being efficient makes you predictable, which is a problem when you face enemies that span across galaxies, and thus have a somewhat comparable level of technology to the Shivans. By being random, the enemy is less likely to figure out what the hell they are doing before they are ready to strike the final blow.
And remember, all systems can be subverted, even the Shivans'/Vishnans'.
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Yeah, the aim seems to be to ensure that no strategy can beat the Shivans in the long run. Note that even the seemingly intelligent overmind we see in UT2 is all being delivered by Ken, whose purpose seems to be to allow the Shivans to coƶpt other intelligences without introducing their vulnerabilities.
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The Shivans span eternity and infinity. Their challengers are unimaginably diverse, armed with weapons that shatter stars and tactics devised by galaxy-spanning minds. To be optimal is to be predictable.
And so, like the cells of a tumor, the Shivans are infinitely mutable. They contain all weapons and all strategems, waiting in the dark. To attack them is to teach them your strengths and failings. Each blow turns back upon you.
It is a weak tactic in the short run, in a given year, a given system. But they have time to spare.
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"If it bleeds, we can kill it."
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Its probably possible to kill them, academically speaking.
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... but do we want to?
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The second we win this war our budgets will be slashed to nothing...
Might be a good idea to keep a few shivans backed up in a sector somewhere...
Sure we may lose a few pilots and ships but in the long run we'll be better off than had we exterminated them completely.
You didn't really want to go back to flipping hamburgers anyway... Did you?
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However the plot of BP is resolved, it will not be in a way that serves human interests before those of the Shivans. Calling it now.
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Ha! Do you not know the first rule of Hollywood? Always leave room for a sequel in case your project is successful.
There will never be an end to Blue Planet, just one cliffhanger after the net til the day we die.
Ain't life grand?
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'Tutta already said BP3 will be about 'Sudans, so... for all we know... :nervous: :shaking:
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Ha! Do you not know the first rule of Hollywood? Always leave room for a sequel in case your project is successful.
There will never be an end to Blue Planet, just one cliffhanger after the net til the day we die.
Ain't life grand?
Considering the BP team do not and cannot make money off the project, I don't think that's very likely.
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Money or not, there will be room for a sequel...
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There will be room to tell new stories in the BP universe.
But at the moment, we have no plans to do so.
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In Lord Darius' words: "FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON!" :D
The E's trap is too obvious! :P
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You're confusing the word "canon" with something else.
If The E were to say "In BP3 Vasuda Prime gains sentience and gets revenge on the Shivans for glassing it," that would be applicable.
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"In BP3 Vasuda Prime gains sentience and gets revenge on the Shivans for glassing it,"
this would be totally ****ing awesome and i fully support the making of such a campaign
i will also try to send the person who makes this campaign things as thanks
although unless you tell me what things you want i will probably get confused as to what things i should send
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Just build a Vasuda Prime model. A Sphere with a big mouth innit, spanning 10 thousand clicks in diameter. The beam that the mouth regurgitates is 100km wide. Kills entire Sathanas Fleets in one go.
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then it turns out that the sun is actually the plasma shine of a beam that's been charging up for 4.6 billion years
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Shambala confirmed. Shoot the Tevs with the sun.
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2:35 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwiUbsq2q58) Shambala testing.
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Don't be so proud of this technological terror. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the force.
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then it turns out that the sun is actually the plasma shine of a beam that's been charging up for 4.6 billion years
Like a Ringworld Laser without the ringworld.
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You're confusing the word "canon" with something else.
That may be, but eventually the myth becomes more than the man who told the story. Like what y'all did to Transcend and all the other campaigns you paid homage to.
I would argue that even Word of God should be semi-canon unless outright stated in-game.
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The Great Darkness would be more fun if it were the personification of the concept of entropy, introduced into the universe through fundamental vacuum instability.
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You are basically sayin that The Great Darkness is a Neo.
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You side with the Vishnans, the story ends. You wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe.
You side with the Shivans, you stay in the Nagari network... and I'll show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
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You are basically sayin that The Great Darkness is a Neo.
Eh, not really :p The concept is more simple than a personification of some inbuilt error in an artificial reality. The Shivans and the Vishnans in my case would be trapped by the acknowledgement that they are part of a universe or multiverse and not external to it. The Great Darkness evokes a fear only a cross universal intelligence could understand - the end of everything.
Insanity could be easily brought on exposing a mere human intellect (especially one as average as Laporte) to the idea of multi-versal entropic oblivion and the ignition of a trillion new cosmic seeds from the quantum foam. Never mind leeches behind the eyeball, such ideas are beyond the understanding of our entire communal species.
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And yet here you summed them up so beautifully in two simple paragraphs.
"Oh, who are we but simply those who were meant not to understand, even though we understand thus so..."
And anyone who has half a clue about life knows there is absolutely NOTHING to be afraid of if the universe ups and ends itself tomorrow. The simple fact is that it's completely out of your control either way, so the only reaction is to whine like a little girl on the Nagari General Discussion forums until the Shivans whip up a ban and shut you up...
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I kinda agree with both of you. I see what docfu says and I agree, even in more basic terms. For instance, we do already know that the amount of stars in the universe is somewhat in the same ballpark of the number of grains of sand in all beaches of the world (or smth). We try really hard to understand and marvel ourselves at this statistic, but the effort is completely fruitless. It is unimaginable.
The end result is not, however, being turned crazy. We just go on with our lives. There is no danger of destroying minds with these thoughts. If we were to know that the universe is ten to the power of five hundred larger than we see it, we would all go "meh, so what? Does this knowledge gives me a better tasty bacon?". Ahah, ok I'm not that sarcastic but you get my point. The point is that this caring is always localized to our own interests and is never "scaled" in proportion to real physical or numeral scales of the universe.
So in that sense I agree with docfu.
OTOH, we are dealing with a Lovecraftian typical cosmo horror story, and in these stories this mind terror, this paralysis, the idea that the universe is so weird that if we really get a glimpse of it we go insane is pretty much a standard trope and a requirement, and in BP it's clearly existent.
My preferred version is the one of the Hitchhiker's Guide, that really connects both of these ideas neatly, with the Total Perspective Vortex. It is terrifying, it is comical and it drives the point home like nothing else. It's also not pretensious at all, which obviously BP's take is (this is not a criticism btw. I also think 2001 to be one of the most pretensious movies I've ever seen and.. one of the best).
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And yet here you summed them up so beautifully in two simple paragraphs.
"Oh, who are we but simply those who were meant not to understand, even though we understand thus so..."
And anyone who has half a clue about life knows there is absolutely NOTHING to be afraid of if the universe ups and ends itself tomorrow. The simple fact is that it's completely out of your control either way, so the only reaction is to whine like a little girl on the Nagari General Discussion forums until the Shivans whip up a ban and shut you up...
There's a difference between exposing oneself to the idea of the concept and actually witnessing it. If you assume that the Nagari process filters part of its information so as to be comprehensible to the human mind, then suddenly the Great Darkness or whatever it is switches that off. I'm trying to imagine what kind of reaction that would give to the average human mind (thinking about it is enough to give me chills) but the scale of calamity coupled with the overwhelming sense of KNOWING that a link with such an entity would provide.. Well. It'd be far beyond Lovecraft. It would be an existential threat of a scale no god could feel. Far beyond Hell and beyond suffering, simply oblivion.
A universal scale intellect is almost certainly going to be concerned with the ultimate end of the universe :)
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Nagari doesn't filter anything, it just dumps thoughts into your head for your mind to translate. When Laporte pokes too deep and nearly drives herself insane asking about the Shivans, the Shivans cut her off. The Great Darkness is something beyond Shivan control, something that lurks in the collective unconscious of the universe, that is so fundamentally alien that it undermines a human's most basic grasp on reality. It's like telling a computer that two equals one; the logical incongruency is simply too great.
I wonder if even the godlike intellects of the Shivans and Vishnans can properly understand it, or if Universal Truth wasn't a near-miss for more than just Laporte.
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I wonder if even the godlike intellects of the Shivans and Vishnans can properly understand it, or if Universal Truth wasn't a near-miss for more than just Laporte.
Ya know, the way aKen goes 'DAMAGE CONTROL FULL-BURN THINKOFSOMETHINGELSERIGHTNOWKID!' seems to imply that.. well he didn't panic, he couldn't really express PANIC, or at least it didn't come through on dialogue alone, certainly implies that was also a very near-miss for Ken. He mentions when you finally reach him that [Noemi] could've gone mad, been discovered or somehow miraculously killed at any point but fortunately had not, so that brings to mind her death could've easily happened at any point.