[Ravenholme]

Spoiler:

Considering how many people died in his attack on Earth and for setting up the ambush in Delena Est I very much doubt that his subordinates love him. Respect maybe, but not love.
And that's not even considering what he pulled off with the Elder and the Vasudans. His jumptactics are gambling with his ship and the crews life and the Vqasudan deception is gambling with the very existance of the alliance.

Spoiler:

Remember that directly preceding Steele was a certain Cyrus Severanti, who had practically zero regard for human life as long as the job was completed eventually. He was committed to a protracted war of attrition that would claim millions of lives over several years. Steele by contrast wants to win the war now, if that costs a few thousand lives on the way, so be it. Ten thousand now is better than ten million later.

Exactly, and Norbert seems to be ignoring that the people serving under him are SOLDIERS. They are no stranger to the fact that people must die in a war. Moreso because these are GTVA military personnel , they've fought the Shivans, and how many must've died in that conflict? I can well imagine Steele being a military officer who is loved and respected, especially due to his

Spoiler:

dedication to winning the war with a minimum of casualties on both sides

[Scotty]

Not to mention that shock jumping with the Serkr team or the Atreus significantly reduces the loss of life on the GTVA side.  Those four vessels alone have destroyed a substantial number of vessels, while taking no losses.

[Evangelist]

I didn't let Xinny and Zero kill me.  They kicked my arse so hard I'll be feeling it sometime into next week.  What a fantastic campaign from start to finish, and that Xanatos Gambit at the end was fantastic.  Steele is awesome.

About my only complaint about the entire campaign is that the GTVA seemed to strike an out of character chord.  In the previous games and in many campaigns, these are pilots that were outraged at the very idea of the NTF ignoring the BETAC yet they're going around bombing civilian installations?  The 14th in particular just risked the lives over an entire campaign to protect the last survivors of the Terran race from another universe, and then when the ship doesn't want to get caught in a fire fight it's immediately traitorous?  Just seemed a bit wierd, and I wonder if the GTVA knows something they aren't letting on.  Maybe ETAK related?

[Dilmah G]

Well it gets you thinking about the Alliance. Is this the same GTVA I flew for in the second shivan incursion?

[Snail]

Well it gets you thinking about the Alliance. Is this the same GTVA I flew for in the second shivan incursion?

Yeah pretty much. Just more hardline.

[-Norbert-]

Exactly, and Norbert seems to be ignoring that the people serving under him are SOLDIERS. They are no stranger to the fact that people must die in a war. Moreso because these are GTVA military personnel , they've fought the Shivans, and how many must've died in that conflict? I can well imagine Steele being a military officer who is loved and respected, especially due to his Spoiler:

Spoiler:

dedication to winning the war with a minimum of casualties on both sides

I am not ignoring it, merely trying to see the whole picture. Apperently you define the word love far more loosly than I do.

Spoiler:

If you took out the engines of the enemies, in Delanda Est and the mission before, four Deimos, one Leviathan and one Aeolus are destroyed and another Deimos and Aeolus disabled and most likely captured by the UEF (I'm quite sure it's possible.... on my last playthrough only one Deimos made the jump to safety with 8% left in her last surviving engine subsystem). And while those ships fought, the Imperieus was sitting back twiddling their thumbs.
With the Vasudan gamble going right for Steele, the loss of the Anemoi was completely negated, meaning that the Wargods - to whom Steele just sacrificed five corvettes, three cruisers and dozens of fighters and bombers - were for all intents and purposes only minor invonveniences. And with the Imperieus and Carthage there, they could have most likely taken them out with far less losses.
If he sent his bombers or the SSM team after the AWACS he could immediately sent in the Titanclass destroyer and most likely taken out all four UEF frigates long before the Indus could recharge their jumpdrives.

On top of that I strongly feel that the first duty of a soldier is to protect civilians. When Steele took over in Sol, he conquered that station and then immediately started hunting down everything that wouldn't immediately surrender - including transports packed full with civilians!
No warning shots! No disabling of the engines and capture! Just a "surrender or die", ten seconds to consider and then meciless slaughter.

Would you really love a superiour who orders you to slaughter civilians, especially considering how valiantly the GTA and GTVA fought to protect fleeing civies in both FS1 and 2?

Spoiler:

Remember that directly preceding Steele was a certain Cyrus Severanti, who had practically zero regard for human life as long as the job was completed eventually. He was committed to a protracted war of attrition that would claim millions of lives over several years. Steele by contrast wants to win the war now, if that costs a few thousand lives on the way, so be it. Ten thousand now is better than ten million later.

And because of that the soldiers would love him? Respect him and be thankfull quite likely, but love?

[The E]

On top of that I strongly feel that the first duty of a soldier is to protect civilians. When Steele took over in Sol, he conquered that station and then immediately started hunting down everything that wouldn't immediately surrender - including transports packed full with civilians!
No warning shots! No disabling of the engines and capture! Just a "surrender or die", ten seconds to consider and then meciless slaughter.

Wrong. Play "Cost of War" again. The final GTVA bomber assault force contacts the UEF convoy, citing the rules of engagement. "By travelling under military escort, you are considered a military target." There are rules about attacking civilians. As in, don't. However, a civilian vessel travelling under military escort is, most likely, a military asset itself, and thus a valid target. In addition, a civillian freighter that doesn't immediately surrender to an armed force bearing down on it, well, that's just terminally stupid behaviour, right?

If you took out the engines of the enemies, in Delanda Est and the mission before, four Deimos, one Leviathan and one Aeolus are destroyed and another Deimos and Aeolus disabled and most likely captured by the UEF (I'm quite sure it's possible.... on my last playthrough only one Deimos made the jump to safety with 8% left in her last surviving engine subsystem). And while those ships fought, the Imperieus was sitting back twiddling their thumbs.

Two things. One, killing any of the Corvettes or Cruisers in Delenda Est takes some effort, as they are all scripted to warp out before destruction.
Two, Had the Imperieuse jumped in earlier, the Wargods would have more time to maneuver out of her way. If the range had been longer, the Wargods would have just scattered, or clustered up and run away for mutual protection. This way, the Imp and the Hydra were able to get almost guaranteed kills on 2 Karunas and 2 Sancti. Steele took a risk, and was vindicated. As said before, Steele gets results, and gets them fast. He also drives his crews as hard as he possibly can to do so. In the end, the people under his command will follow him everywhere, because they know that with him in command, they'll have a better chance of survival than under someone like Severanti.

And because of that the soldiers would love him? Respect him and be thankfull quite likely, but love?

Steele is the one guy they can count on to win the war as quickly and efficiently as he can. They know for a fact that the long, protracted struggle of Severanti's war of attrition is over. They know that they have the best chances of winning.

In the end, -Norbert-, what you are doing is armchair strategizing. Could Steele have done it differently? Sure he could. But what matters to him, and to the GTVA, and to the people under his command is that he is winning the war.

[General Battuta]

I don't think dev team members should be getting involved in this debate.

Norbert's points are as valid as anyone else's. This war is supposed to be ambiguous, and we shouldn't be reducing that.

[-Norbert-]

On top of that I strongly feel that the first duty of a soldier is to protect civilians. When Steele took over in Sol, he conquered that station and then immediately started hunting down everything that wouldn't immediately surrender - including transports packed full with civilians!
No warning shots! No disabling of the engines and capture! Just a "surrender or die", ten seconds to consider and then meciless slaughter.

Wrong. Play "Cost of War" again. The final GTVA bomber assault force contacts the UEF convoy, citing the rules of engagement. "By travelling under military escort, you are considered a military target." There are rules about attacking civilians. As in, don't. However, a civilian vessel travelling under military escort is, most likely, a military asset itself, and thus a valid target. In addition, a civillian freighter that doesn't immediately surrender to an armed force bearing down on it, well, that's just terminally stupid behaviour, right?

Wrong with what?
Killing civilians is suddenly justified just because someone wrote a law declaring it so?
No it's not just justified, it's even an effective and good strategy and getting people to love you?

In FS2 it takes less than 10 seconds to scan a transport and thus determine wether there are any weapons or warmaterials on board. It takes very little time to disable the engines of freighters even with normal weapons, they wouldn't even need dedicated anti-subsystem weapons for it. And once the escort is shot down, the freighters and transports are most likely going to surrender anyway, wether they are civilian or not.
But the GTVA went straight for the freighters with their maxim armed Artemis wing.

By being so merciless towards civilians Steele is even undermining the official goal of the invasion. They say they want to take out the UEF government and take the people of Sol into the fold of the GTVA.
Do you think people who lost familymebers, that weren't even involved in the war, to the GTVA will happily join the murderers of their loved ones?

[Dilmah G]

I'm just going to clarify a point.

Killing civilians is suddenly justified just because someone wrote a law declaring it so?

It most definetely is. These laws are called 'Rules of Engagement'. Anyone who falls into them is quite likely to suffer death or incapacitation promptly after being sighted by any forces liable to apply said rules.

* Dilmah G disappears into the night.

[-Norbert-]

There seem to be many, many people who disagree with you on that in the world. I could name three incidents with civilian casualities from the top of my head that were technically legal, but still caused a massive international uproar just in the last year.

[Javito1986]

Were those civilians traveling under armed escort by military forces hostile to the one that shot at them, like the civies in 'Cost of War' were? I think anyone IRL would agree that's a big no no if you don't want to get shot at. It sucks but the civilian ships made themselves valid targets just by accepting the UEF's protection and traveling under its guard.

Also, I hope more of the dev team responds and will be very sad if they don't. I'm very interested in hearing their opinions!

[Dilmah G]

Also, I hope more of the dev team responds and will be very sad if they don't. I'm very interested in hearing their opinions!

Thing is, we run the risk of ruining BP's magic by putting our $0.02 into everything. It also means then you guys are more limited in what you speculate regarding our next release. And then well, that sucks.

[-Norbert-]

Were those civilians traveling under armed escort by military forces hostile to the one that shot at them, like the civies in 'Cost of War' were? I think anyone IRL would agree that's a big no no if you don't want to get shot at. It sucks but the civilian ships made themselves valid targets just by accepting the UEF's protection and traveling under its guard.

Also, I hope more of the dev team responds and will be very sad if they don't. I'm very interested in hearing their opinions!

So you say if a convoy of the "doctors without borders" (or however their english name is) is escorted through dangerous areas by any military troops that makes them legit military targets?

I guess in that reagard I'm very "ubuntu". I don't just want to know what people think, I want to know why they think so

And I don't think that letting team members express their point of view on the things already published is a problem or limits speculation about future releases. Unless that one person dictates the storyline all alone and the only person for whom that might be true would be Darius.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Well it gets you thinking about the Alliance. Is this the same GTVA I flew for in the second shivan incursion?

It's not exactly the same. In the process of learning how to take a better fight to the Shivans, it appears that the Terrans dehumanised themselves a little.

[Snail]

No. They're simply willing to do what's necessary to ensure the survival of our species


(Snail is not being entirely srs here)

[Javito1986]

Quoth Adama: It's not enough to survive, we have to be worthy of surviving 

[Aardwolf]

No. They're simply willing to do what's necessary to ensure the survival of our species


(Snail is not being entirely srs here)

Because making the Shivans want to wipe us out again is totally a good survival strategy, right? 

[Scotty]

Because making ourselves an easier target is totally a good survival strategy, right?

[Mongoose]

Quoth Adama: It's not enough to survive, we have to be worthy of surviving 

This.  If surviving means discarding every ideal that the GTVA stood for, I'd rather see it all crash and burn.  This definitely isn't the same GTVA I fought for in the nebula.