[X3N0-Life-Form]

With combined arms, they have a slim chance...
UEF ships with GTVA drives and reactors, pummeling the Shivans with long range fire, while GTVA vessels shock jump them, when their forward armarment is being taken out...

Indeed, but the shivans have shown they could adapt to their enemy's tech, especially according to BP-canon, which states that their fighter's primaries are voluntarily downgraded.
If they decide to improve their primaries, improve their beam's range and maybe throw more lilith-like warships, thing are going to be tough. We are also unsure wether beam jamming is going to work on shivans, and given the subspace agility usually given to shivan, they could just short-shock-jump an artillery unit. Although I'm not sure about BP-canon's position regarding shivan jump agility.

Anyway, long story short, I think that even a GTVA-UEF combined strike force would have some difficulties fighting off shivans (unless they stick to retail ships/weapons).

[MatthTheGeek]

Not to mention (again, because it seems that people tend to easily forget it) that UEF ships are not suited to operate out of Sol. That makes GTVA-UEF combined strikes very unlikely in the rest of the Tev systems. And which means that the Tevs are back to square one, defending their own territory by themselves.

[crizza]

Thats what I wrote: UEF ships need GTVA jumpdrives and logistic ships etc...

[The E]

They would also need GTVA weapons. Given that the main guns on UEF ships are all ammunition-based, they simply do not have the option of straying far from their supply sources. In RL terms, the UEF is a shore navy, and cannot stray far from its home port, as opposed to the GTVA's blue-water navy.

[crizza]

Oh, that's actually new to me...but makes sense...

[Luis Dias]

I think it's pretty obvious that you would need to outdo by some orders of magnitude the technological achievements of GTVA / UEF to get the Shivans to "scared" or "respectful" mode. Specially since they should be pretty aware of your astonishingly tiny puny and "mostly harmless" status.

[-Norbert-]

which states that their fighter's primaries are voluntarily downgraded.

We know that many of their weapons are runnibg on lower performance than they could manage, but we do not know wether that really is voluntarily.
It could be that they can only replicate their weapons, but don't really know the technology well enough to adjust them to full power, or that the original designs are sacred and cannot under any circumstance be modified (like Covernant technology in Halo, or the mechanicus in WH40K) or that there is a higher authority forbidding them from using their full power or whatever.

In short: We only know there are limiters there, but not wether they are in there because the Shivans want them to be there or wether they can just switch the limiters off.

[Mars]

OOOh - UEF ships are more like galleys and GTVA ships are more ships of the line?

[Drogoth]

UEF Weaponry could still be adapted for outsystem engagement, it simply wouldn't be nearly as adaptable as the GTVA units. I think an offensive campaign against the Shivans would boil down to GTVA style ships running recon and exploratory offense and once a target of value was discovered, combined GTVA/UEF style force would knock it down.

As for defending Tev systems, I simply do not agree that UEF style weaponry couldn't be used in that role. Obviously if the GTVA started commissioning ammunition using ships for that role they would have the supply net in each system or perhaps in 'hub systems' to keep that force well supplied

[Destiny]

As for defending Tev systems, I simply do not agree that UEF style weaponry couldn't be used in that role. Obviously if the GTVA started commissioning ammunition using ships for that role they would have the supply net in each system or perhaps in 'hub systems' to keep that force well supplied

Then guess what, Shivans come and om nom nom it all with a bunch of SF Dragons, cruisers, corvettes or destroyers. They're capable of doing just that. If not, another Lucifer-class vessel might appear with it's 30km range Shivan Super Laser turned beam, or the Sathanas spam.

[Mars]

As for defending Tev systems, I simply do not agree that UEF style weaponry couldn't be used in that role. Obviously if the GTVA started commissioning ammunition using ships for that role they would have the supply net in each system or perhaps in 'hub systems' to keep that force well supplied

Then guess what, Shivans come and om nom nom it all with a bunch of SF Dragons, cruisers, corvettes or destroyers. They're capable of doing just that. If not, another Lucifer-class vessel might appear with it's 30km range Shivan Super Laser turned beam, or the Sathanas spam.

Destiny, that argument honestly made no sense to me, could you reword?

[QuakeIV]

He seems to be saying the shivans will just mob the Tevs and kill everything anyways. 



Also something in there about the shivans 'om nom nomming' the ships supplying the UEF style warships.
Which is kinda silly, you could just escort the supply ships.

[Drogoth]

As for defending Tev systems, I simply do not agree that UEF style weaponry couldn't be used in that role. Obviously if the GTVA started commissioning ammunition using ships for that role they would have the supply net in each system or perhaps in 'hub systems' to keep that force well supplied

Then guess what, Shivans come and om nom nom it all with a bunch of SF Dragons, cruisers, corvettes or destroyers. They're capable of doing just that. If not, another Lucifer-class vessel might appear with it's 30km range Shivan Super Laser turned beam, or the Sathanas spam.

By that logic we shouldn't have any space borne infrastructure Why build repair yards to repair damaged ships when the shivans might just 'omnom' them? Especially in the BPVerse, where we have huge Logistics Ships which could easily carry replacement ammunition in a mobile format. Besides, like I said, we could keep them in 'hub' systems and distribute in smaller packets to active operation areas. And I would submit to you that if the Shivans can just 'omnom' our core systems at will despite any defences we might mount, then we've already lost.

[Destiny]

As for defending Tev systems, I simply do not agree that UEF style weaponry couldn't be used in that role. Obviously if the GTVA started commissioning ammunition using ships for that role they would have the supply net in each system or perhaps in 'hub systems' to keep that force well supplied

Then guess what, Shivans come and om nom nom it all with a bunch of SF Dragons, cruisers, corvettes or destroyers. They're capable of doing just that. If not, another Lucifer-class vessel might appear with it's 30km range Shivan Super Laser turned beam, or the Sathanas spam.

Destiny, that argument honestly made no sense to me, could you reword?

Eh, that was too cryptic? There's nothing from preventing the Shivans from as QuakeIV said, mobbing the GTVA/UEF supply net/hub system. If anything, they're insanely good at mauling people who do that. That's why GTVA ships are were designed to be self-sufficient (sorry, can't find the right word) in the long run. The Shivans have the subspace agility. Subspace tracking is not limited to the humans. They can reliably intercept and destroy Anemois and their attending fleets with the sheer numbers and beam superiority they possess. And Drogoth, the Shivans already have eaten up our core systems.



Twice.

[Luis Dias]

I think it's pretty canon that FS2 describes a "lost war", Drogoth. The only way GTVA can possibly defend its systems against the Shivans is by mounting a sufficient defence to delay the Shivans from entering core systems with enough time in order to nuke the nodes connecting to them.

That's the only strategy that has the slightest chance of managing a state of affairs where the GTVA population isn't genocided to oblivion.

In the long run, the best possible strategy is to keep defending the systems this way, until you get sufficiently technologically capable to mount a credible threat to the Shivans. There are others, like attempting communication, or just be very good at isolating yourself forever.

One could imagine a galaxy filled with isolated species, the few ones who were able to defend themselves in that way against the shivans. Wouldn't it be great if these species managed a way to talk to each other?

[Drogoth]

As for defending Tev systems, I simply do not agree that UEF style weaponry couldn't be used in that role. Obviously if the GTVA started commissioning ammunition using ships for that role they would have the supply net in each system or perhaps in 'hub systems' to keep that force well supplied

Then guess what, Shivans come and om nom nom it all with a bunch of SF Dragons, cruisers, corvettes or destroyers. They're capable of doing just that. If not, another Lucifer-class vessel might appear with it's 30km range Shivan Super Laser turned beam, or the Sathanas spam.

Destiny, that argument honestly made no sense to me, could you reword?

Eh, that was too cryptic? There's nothing from preventing the Shivans from as QuakeIV said, mobbing the GTVA/UEF supply net/hub system. If anything, they're insanely good at mauling people who do that. That's why GTVA ships are were designed to be self-sufficient (sorry, can't find the right word) in the long run. The Shivans have the subspace agility. Subspace tracking is not limited to the humans. They can reliably intercept and destroy Anemois and their attending fleets with the sheer numbers and beam superiority they possess. And Drogoth, the Shivans already have eaten up our core systems.



Twice.

It took them quite some time to push through to Vasuda and ultimately Sol, even with the Lucifer being untouchable at the time. And the second time they took down 1, count em ONE of our systems, and they had to come through a route that we had already identified. They didn't just sprout up in Vega or Delta Serpentis for example, they came to Capella through a defined route. Even the blitz in the great war had defined entry points.

Even assuming they do a repeat of the Great War and enter unexpectedly in multiple systems, I simply don't buy the argument that we shouldn't build ammunition depots because they could possibly be destroyed. I'm not saying the Shivans couldn't destroy them (provided they reach the system in question), but the simple fact that they can is no reason to lie down and play dead.

The flexibility of having forces that can engage from extreme range far outweighs the risk that our depots might get hit. I'm by no means advocating a total switch over to UEF doctrine, that would leave us at to high of a risk of depot hits, but a mixed fleet would be the most effective answer to the Shivan threat IMHO. Engaging a Sathanas from extreme range seems better then launching fighters and hoping they can disable the beam cannons in time for example.

And Luis Dias, that delaying action constitutes a win in my books, I'm not saying having these ammo dumps will let us suddenly **** all over the Shivans, but a mixed fleet will be more effective at fighting them then just closing to beam range and slugging it out like we always have.

[Scotty]

The first time, they had shields and we didn't, and they had a capship that was actually invulnerable to everything.

The second time, they unveiled WTFPWN beams and Juggernauts, and still only got as far as Capella.

In the alternate universe, a pair of destroyers, a trio of corvettes, and a few cruisers and support ships ate a Juggernaut, a Lucifer, and eight or nine destroyers for breakfast.  Granted, the Lucifer got taken with help, but the Juggernaut and four destroyers went down hard and fast, without Vishnan help, and without friendly capship losses.  In a situation where resupply was difficult, repairs were done quickly, with minimal outside support, and there was no loss replacement.

With full logistical support, loss replacement for any ambushes or a few stupid mistakes, and the might of the full Terran and Vasudan armadas, the Shivans are hardly likely to "om nom nom" anything but beams.

Yeah, the GTVA can't straight up WIN against the Shivans, mostly because we have no knowledge of their full strength, the location of any production facilities, or anything of the sort, they can sure as hell make the Shivans lose too.

[Snail]

I really doubt that. If they really wanted to, I have a feeling the Shivans could just steamroll the GTVA in a couple weeks. They might take massive losses but do they really give a toss?

[Luis Dias]

Even assuming they do a repeat of the Great War and enter unexpectedly in multiple systems, I simply don't buy the argument that we shouldn't build ammunition depots because they could possibly be destroyed. I'm not saying the Shivans couldn't destroy them (provided they reach the system in question), but the simply fact that they can is no reason to lie down and play dead.

Sure. You want to delay their ramming as much as possible.

And Luis Dias, that delaying action constitutes a win in my books, I'm not saying having these ammo dumps will let us suddenly **** all over the Shivans, but a mixed fleet will be more effective at fighting them then just closing to beam range and slugging it out like we always have.

Sure it is a win. Just like me fleeing from bullies and escaping a brutal beating is a "win". Yeah, look at me "winning" as fast as I can!! !

[Drogoth]

Even assuming they do a repeat of the Great War and enter unexpectedly in multiple systems, I simply don't buy the argument that we shouldn't build ammunition depots because they could possibly be destroyed. I'm not saying the Shivans couldn't destroy them (provided they reach the system in question), but the simply fact that they can is no reason to lie down and play dead.

Sure. You want to delay their ramming as much as possible.

And Luis Dias, that delaying action constitutes a win in my books, I'm not saying having these ammo dumps will let us suddenly **** all over the Shivans, but a mixed fleet will be more effective at fighting them then just closing to beam range and slugging it out like we always have.

Sure it is a win. Just like me fleeing from bullies and escaping a brutal beating is a "win". Yeah, look at me "winning" as fast as I can!! !

*shrug* haha, if it keeps us alive to fight another day...