Author Topic: Delenda Est (spoiler!)  (Read 40373 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Kolgena

  • 211
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bOKVguQpaY&feature=related

Hahahah. I dug up this video, and lol'd as an almost perfect play has the Katana drop down to 20% anyways. It's fast too, goes randomly from 100% to 25% for no reason in a few seconds. QD has killed all beams, all AAA, and most of the flak, and the Katana still plummets.

Also, I had no idea grimmlers were viable turret killers. I also never knew that you could get AI to evade by throwing unlocked aspect missiles at them to distract them. I also had no idea a simple climb and roll was so effective for evading. And pro slammer skills are impressive. I should probably watch more of QD's vids. (Except holy crap so much bloom. My eyesss)

Edit: Wait. The Katana starts to drop in HP about 1% per second at around 11:30-12:30, which is also when it gets in range of the Leviathan's fusion mortar. In fact, at 12:34, you can see that the only thing shooting the Katana is the fusion mortar on the leviathan. In fact, if you look closely, you can see that each missile actually does damage equal to 1% of the Katana's health. In fact I think we might have found our problem. In fact I will stop using in fact to start my sentences now, in fact.

Looking at the wiki, the fusion mortar is supposed to do 80 damage. The Karuna has 85k HP. For the fusion mortar to hit for >1% every missile (occasionally the missiles hit for 2% damage for rounding, presumably), each missile must be doing >850 damage. So now we need to look for bugs that are giving this dumbfire an extra order of magnitude of firepower.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 03:08:23 pm by Kolgena »

 
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
...
Looking at the wiki, the fusion mortar is supposed to do 80 damage. The Karuna has 85k HP. For the fusion mortar to hit for >1% every missile (occasionally the missiles hit for 2% damage for rounding, presumably), each missile must be doing >850 damage. So now we need to look for bugs that are giving this dumbfire an extra order of magnitude of firepower.

Could this be something to do with armor.tbl? I think I remember seeing earlier in the thread that it was changed between updates.

Edit: Or rather how Heavy Armor treats FM damage.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 04:09:46 pm by DireWolf »

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

  • 210
  • the REAL Nuke of HLP
    • North Carolina Tigers
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
didn't i read something about some other missiles doing double damage on the new build?  because of a damage radius or blahblah somethingidontunderstand?  related? 
I like to stare at the sun.

 

Offline niffiwan

  • 211
  • Eluder Class
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
didn't i read something about some other missiles doing double damage on the new build?  because of a damage radius or blahblah somethingidontunderstand?  related? 

The bug you're thinking of only affected missiles without an area of effect - the fusion mortar has an area of effect and isn't affected by the bug.
http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2634

There is also this resolved bug which relates to armour / damage calculations?  Can anyone give DE a test with a build bsaed on SVN 8781?
http://scp.indiegames.us/mantis/view.php?id=2647
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Mm, definitely doesn't seem to be fusion mortars. Ran a test and they seem to work as intended. Ran a test and they take their sweet time killing a Karuna even without the warheads getting caught by Apocalypse blasts.

I noticed in the DE events that the Altan Orde has a set Heavy Armor 80 event and the Katana doesn't, for what it's worth.

I've got some time on my hands, so I might start messing with the mission to see if I can pin the problem on a specific ship.

edit: I just noticed that the log lists the kills as less-than-100, which they should be, since the mission was set so that only the paired Levi was attacking each Karuna. Don't think it's related, but I'm guessing this is a bug with the log not properly accounting for armor modifiers, which makes debugging harder.

[attachment deleted by ninja]

 

Offline Kolgena

  • 211
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Mm, definitely doesn't seem to be fusion mortars. Ran a test and they seem to work as intended. Ran a test and they take their sweet time killing a Karuna even without the warheads getting caught by Apocalypse blasts.

O.o

Fusion mortars are dumbfires and cannot be shot down. Actually, I'm pretty sure bombs can't be blown up by shockwaves anyway.

Quick question regarding your testing: Logs suggest that 6 leviathans killed 6 karunas in 30 minutes of mission time. Were they using all their turrets? (For reference, I believe it takes an unbugged fusion mortar ~17 minutes to kill 1 karuna, assuming one missile a second and no armor table changes)

If you had the leviathans paired to Karunas, I think 5 minutes for a kill is a little fast.

(I'm also fairly convinced that it probably is the fusion mortars, so it'd be ideal if someone could do a test in Delenda Est where the fusion mortars start out destroyed or something.)
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 06:49:52 pm by Kolgena »

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
One Levi per Karuna, using only its Fusion Mortar, on RC5. Used time compression after the destruction of Heavy Armor 60. It was actually 7-on-7, but at 30 minutes the Heavy Armor 5 Karuna was still at 78% so I didn't bother waiting.

Mission attached. For strict reproduction purposes, you'll have to edit it to lock the Karuna turrets again.

(As far as I'm aware, bomb shockwaves do destroy bombs. Happens to me all the time when intercepting. As far as fusion mortars go, I'm pretty sure I noticed occasional breaks in fire when Apocalypse warheads hit the turret, though it could have just been the turret acquiring a new target.)

In any case, I've stripped the secondaries from GTVA strikecraft to rule out uberbomber weirdness and I'll probably get around to defanging the DE Levis soon anyway.

e: I just checked again and Karuna warheads do clearly and observably destroy fusion mortars.

[attachment deleted by a ninja]
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:00:55 pm by qwadtep »

 

Offline Kolgena

  • 211
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
That is totally weird. Fusion mortars don't have a bomb flag and therefore shouldn't be any more destroyable than a harpoon or something. I'm wondering if bombs smacking the leviathan somehow interrupt/stun the missile launcher.


(As far as I'm aware, bomb shockwaves do destroy bombs. Happens to me all the time when intercepting. As far as fusion mortars go, I'm pretty sure I noticed occasional breaks in fire when Apocalypse warheads hit the turret, though it could have just been the turret acquiring a new target.)


This has never happened to me. Otherwise, artemis bombers of death would be hilariously easy to intercept, as blowing up one warhead would detonate the other 31 warheads that are right beside it. Or at least, the radius of effect is so small that I've never noticed it. I only know for sure that flak is very bad at intercepting bombs since the flak shockwave is incapable of damaging bombs. I assumed the same principle applied to all other shockwave types such as ship explosions or bomb explosions.

Could someone tell me how the Heavy Armor classes work? (Is Heavy Armor 100 = ship takes default damage against weapons labeled as heavy? Heavy armor 60 = ship takes 60% damage against heavy weapons?) If my understanding is correct, then I think fusion mortars are doing around 4x more damage than they should be, but definitely not more than 10x.

Last thing: Key bit of information I forgot to add: What difficulty did you run the test mission on? Insane is the only difficulty in which weapons hit for 100% their marked value.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:26:57 pm by Kolgena »

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Maybe the fusion mortars are just getting destroyed because they're entering the detonation radius of incoming Apocalypses and registering a collision. I dunno.

Tested with no enemy strike craft secondaries, Katana died as the Deianira/Iolanthe withdrew, Altan Orde at 30%. Tested again with the Deianira/Iolanthe disarmed except for their TerSlashes, Katana survived at 30% and Altan Orde at 60%. Watched incoming fire and there were never even any fusion mortars pointed at the frigates.

(There were a few odd bugs later on, like the Carthage making a brief collision-esque jerk and some of the frigates failing to send their pre-destruction dialogue, but it isn't a priority.)

e: tested fusion mortars on very easy. I believe the damage reduction only applies to the player, otherwise you'd run into all sorts of problems with things not blowing up when they're supposed to.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:42:10 pm by qwadtep »

 

Offline Kolgena

  • 211
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Wait, so the Katana and Altan Orde survive with tons of health left despite all enemy beams being intact?

wut

So nonbeam turrets actually are causing the majority of the DPS? In every run I've played, I usually disarm all the Terslashes well before they get a chance to fire, and I still lose the Katana. Mind, I didn't remove the bomb loadouts from all the bombers leading up to that point in the mission.

e: tested fusion mortars on very easy. I believe the damage reduction only applies to the player, otherwise you'd run into all sorts of problems with things not blowing up when they're supposed to.

I know for a fact that certain missions are easier or harder in retail because beams (as a whole) are doing more or less damage based on difficulty. I can't remember if this is because lower difficulties cap the number of turrets that can fire simultaneously or if actual damage values are played with. I might be wrong about actual numercial values changing though. The mission I'm thinking about is the one where you're field testing pegasus fighters, but then have to escort the Hecate past a Moloch. In lower difficulties, the Moloch will pretty much refuse to die because the Hecate's DPS isn't high enough. Here: the quote from the wiki is as follows

"On lower difficulty settings, the Aquitaine won't do enough damage to the Moloch to destroy it. The solution to this problem is to play this mission on Medium difficulty or higher. On the other hand, the Oberon is extremely difficult to defend on Hard or Insane difficulty. "

However, I have no idea whether this information is reliable at all. Come to think of it, I think in Feint! Parry! Riposte! the Colossus reliably destroys the Orion before their dialogue starts on insane. I haven't played that mission on lower difficulties in a long time, so I can't say if it's because the Colossus brings more beams to bear or if the beams themselves do more damage.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 07:59:09 pm by Kolgena »

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
None of that stuff about difficulty in retail applies to BP because in BP we removed the damage scaling to non-players by difficulty, I'm pretty sure.

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
The bombers shouldn't be the issue anyway since there aren't any left by the time the Katana and AO jump in. If there were, you'd have lost the Indus to Maxim fire (which I'm noting has no trouble dropping it to 30-40% even without bombs).

Going off the tables, Heavy Armor 150 takes 150% damage and so on, so a Fusion Mortar should be doing 120 per second, which means that it should take... 11 minutes? Wow, okay, there's definitely something wrong here. Could the karuna be taking damage from both the fusion mortar and its blast? I don't think it's the main problem, but unless there's some weird flag buried in the tables somewhere it shouldn't be happening.

I'll do one more run tonight to see how the main beams on the other ships are contributing, but there's definitely a weapon or armor bug.

 

Offline Kolgena

  • 211
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
I think it's a step in the right direction, but like you mentioned, it's probably not just fusion mortars. Your last DE run didn't even put the Karunas in range of the missiles.

Anyways, look forward to more of your test results :yes:

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Wow, okay. With the TerSlashes on the Carthage and the SGreens on the Leviathans and Aeoluses off, in addition to the stuff with the Iolanthe and Deianira, the Altan Orde survived with 58% and the Katana with... 77%. Apparently those beams make a huge difference.

Aesaar, can you upload the old bp2-core.vp somewhere? I want to compare the mission files and see exactly what changes were made in the patch.

 

Offline niffiwan

  • 211
  • Eluder Class
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Going off the tables, Heavy Armor 150 takes 150% damage and so on, so a Fusion Mortar should be doing 120 per second, which means that it should take... 11 minutes? Wow, okay, there's definitely something wrong here. Could the karuna be taking damage from both the fusion mortar and its blast? I don't think it's the main problem, but unless there's some weird flag buried in the tables somewhere it shouldn't be happening.

Targets impacted by missiles take damage from both the impact and the shockwave - vs Heavy Armour 150 the Fusion Mortar should do (80 impact + 80 shockwave) x 1.5 = 240 dps, taking approx 6 minutes to destroy the Karuna w/ 85k hp?

Here's a copy of the fusion mortar table entry, which confirms that the wiki damage value is not really correct, any weapon with a shockwave radius really deals twice the tabled damage.  That was the essence of the bug previously mentioned, missiles without a shockwave radius were given a shockwave radius of 0.1 which effectively doubled their damage.

edit: for clarity
« Last Edit: May 29, 2012, 09:38:56 pm by niffiwan »
Creating a fs2_open.log | Red Alert Bug = Hex Edit | MediaVPs 2014: Bigger HUD gauges | 32bit libs for 64bit Ubuntu
----
Debian Packages (testing/unstable): Freespace2 | wxLauncher
----
m|m: I think I'm suffering from Stockholm syndrome. Bmpman is starting to make sense and it's actually written reasonably well...

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Going off the tables, Heavy Armor 150 takes 150% damage and so on, so a Fusion Mortar should be doing 120 per second, which means that it should take... 11 minutes? Wow, okay, there's definitely something wrong here. Could the karuna be taking damage from both the fusion mortar and its blast? I don't think it's the main problem, but unless there's some weird flag buried in the tables somewhere it shouldn't be happening.

Targets impacted by missiles take damage from both the impact and the shockwave - vs Heavy Armour 150 the Fusion Mortar should do (80 impact + 80 shockwave) x 1.5 = 240 dps, taking approx 6 minutes to destroy the Karuna w/ 85k hp?

Here's a copy of the fusion mortar table entry, which confirms that the wiki damage value is not really correct, any weapon with a shockwave radius really deals twice the tabled damage.  That was the essence of the bug previously mentioned, missiles without a shockwave radius were given a shockwave radius of 0.1 which effectively doubled their damage.

edit: for clarity
I see, so it's working more or less correctly. Thanks for the clarification.

 

Offline Aesaar

  • 210
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Pre-update bp2-core.vp for those who want it.  I'd upload the whole thing, but I'm pretty sure a 1.25GB download is beyond a free Mediafire account.

 

Offline qwadtep

  • 28
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
The whole thing isn't needed, core contains all the mission files and tables. Thanks, I'll dig into it tomorrow.

 
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Note that a couple of model names, most notably the Karuna, have changed since the update though. 

 

Offline Kobrar44

  • On Suspended Sentence
  • 29
  • Let me tilerape it for you!
    • Steam
Re: Delenda Est (spoiler!)
Dunno if self-damaging karunas are still the case, but I think I might have something. Needs further investigation, though[will take care of it]. I saw such a weird thing. I experienced lots of lags [dunno why, but ok], and this is what I noticed. This is no muzzle flash. Could this be... self damaging with a splash flak?
To be clear, it appears on every three barreled guns on shorter barrel.

[attachment deleted by ninja]
Oh guys, use that [ url ][ img ][ /img ][ /url ] :/