[leoben]

And Luis - re-reading our posts, don't we both believe that the Vs still don't want the humans to be eradicated? If we say, their plan hasn't failed, that means they still believe we can be redeemed, so why would they order the cull? That's what doesn't add up to me. Well, one of the things

[The E]

Ahem.

The theory that the Vishnans and Shivans do not communicate across interdimensional borders does not hold water.

Both are entities that, for the most part, are native to subspace. They occupy the thing that binds universes together, so they very definitely know what is going on across the barrier, as it were.

[General Battuta]

Ahem.

The theory that the Vishnans and Shivans do not communicate across interdimensional borders does not hold water.

Both are entities that, for the most part, are native to subspace. They occupy the thing that binds universes together, so they very definitely know what is going on across the barrier, as it were.

I think this is a reasonable supposition, but nothing we've seen in the campaigns so far has definitively proven it...except perhaps the fact that Ken was perfectly aware of what happened during Universal Truth.

[The E]

Oh, come on. The theory is that there's no communication between universes. I would present a simple counterpoint to that, namely that interdimensional travel is possible, and arguably even easy. Assuming that the Shivans and Vishnans, who both have a greater mastery of subspace than humanity/vasudanity, are unaware of this fact or unable to exploit it strikes me as a grave underestimation of their powers.

[leoben]

Ahem.

The theory that the Vishnans and Shivans do not communicate across interdimensional borders does not hold water.

Both are entities that, for the most part, are native to subspace. They occupy the thing that binds universes together, so they very definitely know what is going on across the barrier, as it were.

I think this is a reasonable supposition, but nothing we've seen in the campaigns so far has definitively proven it...except perhaps the fact that Ken was perfectly aware of what happened during Universal Truth.

GB - that's true.

I'm still thinking that the Vs and Ss are following the same Protocol, interpreting it differently. However, I think one of the most important things in understanding the story is to fully understand (if that's possible at all) the hierarchy and relationship between the Vs and Ss. That is key. AoA hints at it quite directly, but I think there's a lot more to it than that. There's one contradiction in the story I found, which might be only me not paying attention close enough: In a discussion, Shiva says only the Ss are eternal, and Vs will fall eventually. One of the nodes however reveals that there's a specific point in time when the Ss came to be, at around half the age of the Milky Way galaxy..or is there something I'm missing?

If that's so, on a cosmic scale, that's not that long, we're talking billions and billions of years before and after that.

Also, why do the Vs pursue Laporte so viciously through the Nagari network? Because she is identified as a S avatar of sorts? If that's so, was it really Bei that she talked to in the last mission? If yes, I find it very difficult to understand how he couldn't get in touch with the Vs, but interfere with the link between Ken and Laporte.

Daaamn, too many questions Gief act 4 NAU!!!!

[leoben]

Oh, come on. The theory is that there's no communication between universes. I would present a simple counterpoint to that, namely that interdimensional travel is possible, and arguably even easy. Assuming that the Shivans and Vishnans, who both have a greater mastery of subspace than humanity/vasudanity, are unaware of this fact or unable to exploit it strikes me as a grave underestimation of their powers.

Completely with you there!

[An4ximandros]

The Shivans are 'eternal.' The date given is the date they intersected with our world line.

 My understanding is that the Shivans first came to 'our' universe that date. They are that old in our universe.

[-Norbert-]

If that's so, was it really Bei that she talked to in the last mission? If yes, I find it very difficult to understand how he couldn't get in touch with the Vs, but interfere with the link between Ken and Laporte.

For this one I can easily find a possible answers:
The Vishnans don't want to talk with Humans for the time being and thus blocked the connection (or they only listen attentively without answering, while they wait for something). Ken is communicating with Laporte and thus the connection is obviously open and Bei (wether by design or chance) somehow tapped into it.

Of course it's also possible that it isn't Bei himself. It could have been some kind of echo or memory of him that remained with the Vishnans, even after they broke contact.... or even just a Vishnan pretending to be Bei, in order to manipulate Laporte.


Something that I'd like to know in regard of Bei is wether he's able to communicate with the Hammer of Light representative.

[Nyalatothep]

It's like they're trying to punish us for being intelligent and rational.

Why, in God's name, can't they just talk to us straight?  Are they incapable of figuring out how to talk to us primitives?  Are the Shivans and Vishnans so ****ing stupid that they can't even even figure out how to use subspace or, godforbid, radio to talk to us, or is there actually a legitimate reason they can't just behave like reasonable adults and use their words?! 

And yeah, I'm pissed about it!  I know that there's probably a reason why they haven't talked to us about it straight, that I don't have all of the information and that Blue Planet's the writers aren't going to let us down, but I'm still mad at these egotistical Vorlonoids!  The way the Vishnans have been behaving is like the white phosphorus scene in "Spec Ops: The Line", where the game tries to make you look like a murdering bastard for using it, but never gives you the option not to!  Instead of inspiring awe and wonder, the Shivans and Vishnans are coming across as capricious, arbitrary, unjust, unforgiving - and possibly malevolent - bullies and control freaks!

Well, you have every reason to be mad at them, but there is another interesting point to it: What exactly IS being rational? Rational behaviour is behaviour that is learned, known to require some skills in reasoning and intelligence, and most importantly: It is behaviour that has been shown to work. Who knows what goes for rational behaviour in the realm of thought the Vs&Ss inhabit? Maybe there were some parallel universes where they tried that and it didn't work/made things even worse somehow, conditioning them to think that it isn't worth a try. Or maybe they don't do so because of some experience they had with the ancients? There could be several things prompting them to dismiss direct communication like that.

[NGTM-1R]

that is learned

Not really. Inductive logic has a gap. Past behavior and events are not required to predict future behavior and events. They often do, but not always. A truly rational analysis acknowledges this.

[The E]

If the Vishnans and Shivans seem uncaring, even malicious, it's because they are.

They are looking for something in humanity, something partially inherent and partially emergent, and they seem to eschew direct intervention to get it. The reason might be that taking a direct influence may be counterproductive to their goals. Instead of getting the qualities they seek in a natural fashion (even if the process is accelerated through careful and subtle intervention), they would be getting something forced, something that is a "best fit" for the requirements but that may ultimately fail because of the process of its creation.

EDIT:
Neither of them cares about individual humans, or even groups of humans. They have a list of requirements they need humanity to fulfill if humanity is to be allowed a continuing existence. They need humanity to fill these requirements by themselves, without much external prompting, since artificial constructs are always more fragile and less able to sustain themselves than "natural" systems.

[General Battuta]

Please don't everybody start quoting that as BP Canon tho

[Luis Dias]

TOO LATE

[Darius]

FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON

Neither is IRC

the website doesn't look too good either

sorry

[Luis Dias]

Man if I was one of you BP badged guys I'd troll this forum so hard....

[The E]

You mean, like what we already do?

[MatthTheGeek]

FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON

Neither is IRC

the website doesn't look too good either

sorry

Nothing is BP canon

The BP campaigns are actually fanfics

[Luis Dias]

You mean, like what we already do?

Man I see through you like glass.

[Nyalatothep]

that is learned

Not really. Inductive logic has a gap. Past behavior and events are not required to predict future behavior and events. They often do, but not always. A truly rational analysis acknowledges this.

Indeed, but the ability to use this logic is still learned. Also, I'd say that all the issues here go beyond anything that is purely logical. But this would lead to another completely indipendent discussion about philosophy in general.

If the Vishnans and Shivans seem uncaring, even malicious, it's because they are.

They are looking for something in humanity, something partially inherent and partially emergent, and they seem to eschew direct intervention to get it. The reason might be that taking a direct influence may be counterproductive to their goals. Instead of getting the qualities they seek in a natural fashion (even if the process is accelerated through careful and subtle intervention), they would be getting something forced, something that is a "best fit" for the requirements but that may ultimately fail because of the process of its creation.

That's of course another piece of the picture. Sure, they may be able to see that talking it out in an open and transparent way is a possible solution to certain problems, but would it even achieve what they are truly looking for? And if not, any "solution" that ends human existence is probably just as good as any to them.

[qwadtep]

FORUM POSTS ARE NOT CANON

Neither is IRC

the website doesn't look too good either

sorry

Nothing is BP canon

The BP campaigns are actually fanfics

Fanfics of a fanfic. And one might argue that Freespace is a fanfic of space, so a fanfic of a fanfic of a fanfic.