[blackhole]

And I assume you'll be just as happy to Grin and Bear it when your turn comes around, and you discover PC gaming is primarily delayed console ports and casual games because there's no money in PC gaming?

I'm going to make a game, and the only DRM its going to have is a good old-fashioned CD-key. It will be nearly impossible to pirate. How? One CD-key online at a time. Voila, piracy problem solved, customer is happy, no audio codecs, virtual drivers, or other totally useless bull**** needed.

By all means, argue that DRM is needed because of the piracy rates - that doesn't matter. What I'm argueing is that regardless of whether or not you need DRM, Fallout 3 does a really bad job at it, and they need to fire their entire programming department. Unless you can successfully implement DRM, you are better off just not including it in your product, because if you do include it in your product you will be boycotted and cracked and you'll end up losing more money then if you had just settled for something more simplistic (like a CD-key) and let people pirate it.

[Flipside]

First if I have to choose between something like Securom and not buying the game at all I will just not buy it.

Normally I'd agree, but the problem is, if it's an impulse-buy, most companies are very reluctant to advertise the fact that Securom is included with the game, which should be a warning in and of itself.

[blackhole]

Normally I'd agree, but the problem is, if it's an impulse-buy, most companies are very reluctant to advertise the fact that Securom is included with the game, which should be a warning in and of itself.

Especially if it causes system instability.

[Flipside]

Agreed, thing is, I'm not sure whether it's my Disc-Emulation stuff or the fact that my DVD player is, in fact, a DVD writer that Securom doesn't like, and it really shouldn't matter anyway.

I know there are a few articles about that say that Disc Emulation stuff accesses the system at exactly the same level as Securom, but the big difference, from my point of view, is that I chose to install Daemon Tools, I didn't choose to install Securom, and that's what irks me

[blackhole]

What irks me is that DRM is fundamentally impossible. The only way for DRM to work is to give each game a unique ID (cd-key), and only allow one instance of a given key to run at any one point. This requires an internet connection. Any DRM that attempts to do something other then that is full of crap and just plain does not freaking work, which was demonstrated when Spore was cracked before it was even officially released!

Only DRM that works: Require an internet connection and only let one unique CD-key online at any one point, given a database of approved CD-keys. Anything else is pointless. May I point out that even this form of DRM is really easy to implement with the only requirement from the consumer be that an internet connection is required. You don't need a freaking virtual audio driver. This is technocrap that does nothing but clog up your system for absolutely no reason. If you want your game to be available offline, IT GETS PIRATED. End of story.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

Even that type of DRM is fundamentally flawed.  All it takes is someone to duplicate the CD key and as soon as they are running the game with the key the legitimate owner cannot. 


Video games have survived since at least 1980 without DRM.  Believe me pirating was rampant even back then.  On a percentage basis probably even more then it is now.  If anything kills video games it will be corporate greed.  Release the games by a deadline even if they aren't ready and charge top dollar for them.  That's the bottom line.  Until that is changed DRM or no DRM sales will fall.  When sales fall they need a scapegoat so they blame pirating.

Wonder how long before they start shipping blank CD's and tell you to download the patch which isn't available for a year.......

[BloodEagle]

I feel the need to point out that the online-DRM check thing doesn't work, either. After all, there's a version of Steam.

[Flipside]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the whole online activation thing (3 installs and your out) is nothing to do with Piracy in the first place, it's much more about destroying the second hand market for Video Games. A lot of companies are complaining that second hand sales are money out of their hands (despite the fact that the Video and Music industries seem to have coped for the last several decades), and even worse is their dogma that if they had more money they would make better games, because it's utter crap.

If they had more money, the games still would not go above the average capability of the hardware available, since they want to reach as wide an audience as possible, and not only that, any extra money they make doesn't find its way to the actual 'ground crew', it goes straight into the sweaty hands of shareholders and higher management echelons, it wouldn't have the tiniest effect on the quality of games.

[Al Tarket]

i have never bought any new EA games, just downloaded them. crysis, and warhead and played them, lasted about 1 hour on both sides. downloaded supreme commander, no identifiable DRM and lasted 6 days. there is a real difference there.

The last EA game i bought was Tiberium wars, just before the DRM luckily enough. i will never install any software that secretly transmits info back to the base is was designed to transmit to. virus, rootkit or spyware or not it's not going to happen on my end.

im going to get some spare ribs and bosch beer, that will occupy me for a while better then being annoyed by DRM.

[phatosealpha]

Well, congratulations.

You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay.  Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.

Which probably explains the bugs.

[Flipside]

Nope, no-ones saying only an idiot would develop for PC, what we are saying is that only an idiot would try to impose the kinds of DRM that are currently used. There's a damn good reason to write for PC's, which is the simple fact that I, or Blackhole or the SCP Team can with a lot more ease than developing for the PS3 etc, where the hardware you need in order to do so is considered illegal.

What is being said here is that the current business model isn't working, not the idea of writing games for PCs, but the implementation of it. Games retailers wholly mistrust their users, an idea that was inherent in the design of consoles, if you think consoles don't have DRM, think again, the only difference is that consoles cannot run the other utilities that DRM often breaks, its their limitations that make them safer in that respect.

Software that potentially damages the computer, or leaves them unable to run the game is, quite clearly, not doing the task it was designed to do.

[CP5670]

You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay.  Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.

None of that implies that they are not making a substantial profit.

Like a lot of game publishers these days, you seem to be under the impression that trying to fight piracy (not even stopping it, but just trying to) is more important than actually maximizing profits. And yes, only a moron is going to spend money on DRM systems that don't work. However, since there are in fact plenty of morons around, Sony must be laughing all the way to the bank.

On a side note, Fallout 3 is actually one of more annoying games I've seen in terms of DRM, despite people saying that it's relatively mild. The installer automatically opens the Securom-loaded launcher without any prompting, so I had to spend a few minutes cleaning out all the Securom crap from my system. Most games don't do this, so they can be cracked before you actually open the exe and you don't need to deal with the DRM at all.

[Flipside]

You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay.  Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.

None of that implies that they are not making a substantial profit.

Like a lot of game publishers these days, you seem to be under the impression that trying to fight piracy (not even stopping it, but just trying to) is more important than actually maximizing profits. And yes, only a moron is going to spend money on DRM systems that don't work. However, since there are in fact plenty of morons around, Sony must be laughing all the way to the bank.

On a side note, Fallout 3 is actually one of more annoying games I've seen in terms of DRM, despite what people say about it. The installer automatically opens the Securom-loaded launcher without any prompting, so I had to spend a few minutes cleaning out all the Securom crap from my system. Most games don't do this, so they can be cracked before you actually open the exe and you don't need to deal with the DRM at all.

Thank you. This isn't a thread about PC Games being crap, it is a thread about DRM rendering my computer unable to play them, which means I have no idea if they are crap or not. That's what I have a problem with.

God forbid customers should be annoyed about spending 35 quid for a tea coaster... I'm not a fan of piracy, but it's never pirates who have to cope with this kind of stuff, it's the paying customers, maybe if more game developers realised that the only people who suffer for the DRM are the ones who actually pay for the games then they'd realise just how much they are damaging themselves.

[blackhole]

Even that type of DRM is fundamentally flawed.  All it takes is someone to duplicate the CD key and as soon as they are running the game with the key the legitimate owner cannot. 

Alright, I revise my statement: All DRM is fundamentally flawed. However I want to point out that the one CD-key online at a time worked extremely well for diablo II.

You guys have successfully proved that only an idiot would develop games for the PC - DRM doesn't work, people pirate in droves, and complain if you try anything to maybe make sure they pay.  Only a moron is going to invest time or money in that.

You are running under the absurd notion that the fact that pirating is rampant means one cannot make a profit. Remember that a lot of people pirate games they wouldn't buy in the first place. If games weren't making a profit, they wouldn't have multimillion dollar budgets.

[Flipside]

I'm always very dubious of the claims of 'how much money we've lost to Piracy' from Game Developers anyway, it makes some extremely shifty assumptions, not the least of which is that every pirate is a lost customer, which is an extremely broad brush to paint with.

Game Developers need to develop an open-minded approach to IP Protection, simply punishing paying customers, and leaving pirates to laugh at the same customers for having to deal with draconian DRM that stands a chance of leaving the game totally unplayable is not the way to go.

So, one minute, they are quite happy to leave you with a useless disc once they have your money, the next minute they are complaining that too many people are downloading games with the DRM removed, it's a case of 'cake and eat it'.

As mentioned before, the Game Industry makes a massive profit, more than Videos and Music combined, in fact, and, to be honest, I wouldn't be all that surprised if Piracy dropped if DRM was made less threatening, restrictive and draconian in nature.

[phatosealpha]

Yeah, they're making the games for consoles and making a lot of money.  That's the thing about the gaming industry - it includes the consoles where piracy ain't nearly the problem it is for the PC.   Who's making a lot of money in the PC realms?  The only one that springs to mind is blizzard, and that's from their unpiratable MMO.  You know, the one where they're establishing the legality of EULAs in the court system with?


I've heard the 'they wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it doesn't count' argument before, and it was convincing until I actually sat back and thought about the economics of it.  Bobby pirates a $60 game - oh, he wouldn't have bought it for $60.  But would he have bought it at $30?  The world will never know.  More to the point, because he's pirated a game, his desire for entertainment is fulfilled.  That's reducing demand across the industry - cause lets be honest, since he's got a stolen $60 game, he ain't exactly running to the store to buy another game, at any price.  The man who steals a coke - whether or not he would've bought that coke - still ain't buying pepsi, or rc cola, or bargain basement soda, or water.

Find me a piracy apologist who who actually takes this arguement through the steps of an actual economic analysis, and I'll listen to it again.  Until then, it's in the same group as republicans talking about tax cuts being good, and democrats saying tax cuts are bad - pure rhetoric.

[Flipside]

In that case, your statements are also purely rhetoric, and this is a circular argument.

[phatosealpha]

Oh, indeed.

At which point the simple rule of common sense jumps in, and I think about how stolen property is accounted for in any other situation, and all of a sudden the gaming industries figures look right on target.

[blackhole]

Yeah, they're making the games for consoles and making a lot of money.  That's the thing about the gaming industry - it includes the consoles where piracy ain't nearly the problem it is for the PC.   Who's making a lot of money in the PC realms?  The only one that springs to mind is blizzard, and that's from their unpiratable MMO.  You know, the one where they're establishing the legality of EULAs in the court system with?


I've heard the 'they wouldn't have bought it anyway, so it doesn't count' argument before, and it was convincing until I actually sat back and thought about the economics of it.  Bobby pirates a $60 game - oh, he wouldn't have bought it for $60.  But would he have bought it at $30?  The world will never know.  More to the point, because he's pirated a game, his desire for entertainment is fulfilled.  That's reducing demand across the industry - cause lets be honest, since he's got a stolen $60 game, he ain't exactly running to the store to buy another game, at any price.  The man who steals a coke - whether or not he would've bought that coke - still ain't buying pepsi, or rc cola, or bargain basement soda, or water.

Find me a piracy apologist who who actually takes this arguement through the steps of an actual economic analysis, and I'll listen to it again.  Until then, it's in the same group as republicans talking about tax cuts being good, and democrats saying tax cuts are bad - pure rhetoric.

Do you think EA would have spent i don't know how much money developing The Sims 3 if The Sims 2 hadn't made them absurd amounts of money? That was a PC only game, and it was easiely piratable.

I'm not saying "Pirating games doesn't hurt the industry because those people wouldn't have bought games in the first place." Thats stupid. I'm saying that the effect of pirating is massively overrated by all the big corporations. Lots of people pirated the crap out of spore. A whole crapload more actually bought the damn game despite there being massive boycotts on it and all this other crazy stuff because of the DRM. They still made craploads of money off of it.

To say that there is no money in the PC gaming industry because of all the pirating is like saying there isn't any money in the music industry because no one buys music anymore. It's not true.

[FUBAR-BDHR]

I don't pirate games.  I will not buy a game with DRM period.  I will not by a console or console game period as I built a top of the line computer to game with.  Those are sales that are lost as well.  Where are your figures on sales lost that way?