Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: eliex on December 12, 2007, 09:31:46 pm
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It's kind off interesting to see the different variations of how the GTVA ever managed to get back to SOL - although it's not canon.
So thinking, I just wanted to address this properly - because if the jump node between Delta Serpentis and Sol was severed and all humanity and vasudanity were killed well, ta-da repopulation.
But if they survived and of course had NO idea of the GTVA, as it was formed years after the destruction of the Lucifer how would they react to GTVA search parties if they even managed to construct a Knossos.
Scene 1 - Hey you betrayed us all, kill them!
Scene 2 - Hey look daddy, there some unknown strangers out there but they sure look very . . . . um, nice.
Scene 3 - Welcome home, we have all missed you!
Maybe scene three because Alpha 1 has would have managed to tell the Earth authorities about the Lucifer and also the fact that
humans aren't exactly dumb.
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Yeah, popping back onto earths doors could very well be met with hostility and caution. Most of the terran ships have been influenced by vasudan design. It would be intelligent to go on a diplomatic mission with say orions. Now, if the gtva still had the colossus, they could just go right back to earth without having to worry about meeting hostility or not.
The other thing that is a definite is that earth is working on a to re-open the sol node. Restabilization of the node is pretty much the same principal of the knossos. Earth or the gtva would come up with similar means to re-open the node.
Either way earth would definitely be cautious as hell seeing the sol node open up for no apparent reason when it's supposed to be shut having all of these new ships they've never seen before coming through. That's why going back to earth with familiar ships like the orion (fs1 gen ships) would be a good idea so that earthlings would know that it's humans coming back through. As opposed to a hecate going through and earth being a little undeterminate on which species that ship belongs to.
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I say come through the gate with a shivan ship that is automated to piss em off then come through with orions ^_^
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I say come through the gate with a shivan ship that is automated to piss em off then come through with orions ^_^
:lol:
they would be like "omg! that crazy old man was right!"
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Orions escorted by Levis with Herc Mk 1 and Ulysses escort. Followed very closely by Hecates and modern fighters & bombers, just in case:
A) Terrans are now hostile (ala Inferno)
B) The Shivans have returned to Earth using an alternate route
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Well, I'd send remote probes through to take a look at the place...See what's going on
Then, id try sending a message and awaiting the answer
Only once i was sure that it was safe would i send big ships through.
I agree that the 1st detachment should composed of FS1 era ships...just to show that we're still alive, then the newer ships
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Near the end of the Freespace 1 campaign, you can see some Vasudan warships.
Unless the Terrans killed them over time or that they eventually died out on Earth there would still be Vasudans right? :lol:
Heh, like it's as if the fates of the GTVA are bound to the Shivans! Wherever they are, somehow mysteriously they always have to make a
fight out of a GTVA/Shivan encounter.
Like the Shivans are never bored of fighting GTVA troops.
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I find it unlikely hostilities would arise. After all, hte Earth was nearly destoryed and was isolated. The end of the isolatation and the re-union wiht your bretheren is something every sane person would be looking forward to ;)
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Well, hostilities could arise, l mean look at INF R1/Sol:a History/INF:A/INF SCP(when it comes out)
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I said highly unlikely, not impossible.... :blah:
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Let me site you another example - Coloney wars...Now i do admit that they were sealed in sol by a Massive Civil war...but still...its an example of how an isolated group can become militaristic expansionists
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Well i for one dont go for either one! If Earth was indee perhaps attacked by shivans or if they suddenly become hostile why aler the shivans/Earth forces that you have come back knocking on theyr door??
I say no just deploy 2 or 3 GTVA warflets that should be about 6 to 9 destroyers a bu8nch of corvettes and loeads of cruisers and stuff get in start scanning the sistem like a mad man and try to make contact woth anyone there. If they are friendly then by all mean they will be happy to see the GTVA so strong if they are enemies then by all means they should start fearing the GTVA in case they get any sort of crazy ideas like gooing up agains Orions or Hattie or even Hecates.
Lol i would love to see them stupid enough to actualy try and charge the fleet with fighter/bommbers only to find them gone at the hands of the Deimos corvettes hell they wouldnt even manage to cause any significat dammage to the fighter screen of the destroyers let alone actualy get a shot at one of them! :D
I would love to see the look on they face :" wtf...we had a couple of dozne fighters and bommbers headed that a sec ago did we knot??? Hey hold up whose taking out our warships theyr dropping like flyes..."
"Sir we have them weird looking smaller then a destroyer class warships kicking our asses all over the place (Iceni's ) and the destroyers havent even begun to take decive action....i think we should well run......." :))
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Maybe scene three because Alpha 1 has would have managed to tell the Earth authorities about the Lucifer and also the fact that
humans aren't exactly dumb.
The Lucy was around for weeks before the node went down :p
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My feeling is there is potential for both peace and conflict, depending on how events transpire. There's some interesting factors to consider here.
Terra was undisputedly the central authority of the old GTA prior to the isolation of Sol.
The Home Fleet at Sol was probably at least twice as powerful as any other GTA fleet, and likely would have been heavily reinforced just before the jump node was cut off with both Terran and Vasudan units.
The Vasudan presence is hard to predict as to how they would react to being totally isolated from their Emperor as they place enormous importance on their ultimate leader.
There is enough tidbits in the back story to suggest that Terra had an enormous production capability, not to mention a well established research and development capacity. In 30 plus years, with the fear of extintion as a motivator, you can bet that Terra would not sit idle and wait for the Destroyers to come and take out the home system.
All of this is to point out that there would probably be an enormous and advanced Terran military presence in the home system, under control of a political entity that would not recognise BETAC or any other form of GTVA governing body's authority.
As to the need to send Great War relics through the Knossos Portal, well that's a bit silly. Regardless of what era vessel enters Sol space, they are going to be challenged and their credentials checked. It would be more probable that the GTVA would send a diplomatic mission through before visiting with any warships period. An Argo transport with a small fighter escort would be the likely first contact mission.
This is to suppose that Home Fleet does not detect the reactivation of the jump node and immediately send a task force through to secure the other terminus of the subspace passage. It's really not a good idea from a military standpoint to have your only exit route left in custody of a potentially hostile force, regardless of their identification and claimed intentions.
The fluff text idea that Terra would fall apart with their isolation from the colonies is not on very firm ground IMHO. We are talking about taking a major group of the human race out of circulation and leaving them with the motivation of possible extinction as the focus of their existence. It's my belief that apart from the terminally stupid who have some rosey picture that love will be their shield from the evil doers, the sane majority will jump on the military's side. Read a little history from the World War One and World War Two periods if you have doubts.
The biggest joker in the deck is good old fashioned human nature.
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While Sol might be a political and production powerhouse, the GTVA has about 20 or so star systems and combined power of 2 races. Sol fighting against the GTVA? That would be not only terribly stupid but also suicidal.
Realisticly, Sol has no real chance in a war, it's simply outclassed in manpower, industry and versatility. It might be able to put up a good fight, but that's about it.
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I wouldn't bet that Sol couldn't rough handle the GTVA under the right conditions. It took the GTVA a year and a half plus just to put down a rebellion by the NTF, and the NTF were not terribly well led or supplied with top notch troops. Bigotted malcontents rarely are capable of more than advanced bullying, and yet the GTVA acted like their drawers were around their ankles.
The GTVA also apparently learned little from the Great War. Half of their fleets or more were made up of upgraded (and that not terribly well done) relics. Their modern units do not really seem to be enormous improvements on the older ships.
They lost a destroyer and other capitol ships just trying to take down a single Shivan Ravana - that they comfortably outnumbered!
Evidence also suggests that the Terran side of the GTVA was not strongly cohesive. It is more than likely that several of the colonies would ally with Terra against the other colonies.
The GTA spent decades secure in the knowledge that their greatest enemy had been defeated. Sol did not. For all it knew, for the isolation time, the Shivans had conquered and destroyed the colonies. They would have spent their time building up and advancing their military, unlike the GTVA which had the luxury of complacency.
Then we have the Vasudans. They would most likely refuse to get involved in what they would view as a purely internal Terran matter, unless they felt threatened enough to come in on one side or the other. I don't think that it would be assured what side they would support either - they have had numerous differences with the Terran part of their alliance. They may also feel that Terra has a legitimate claim to GTA authority. The Vasudan Empire has a strong history of supporting their own centralization of government, and may feel that the colonies are behaving wrongly by not accepting the 'rightful' rulership of Terra.
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While Sol might be a political and production powerhouse, the GTVA has about 20 or so star systems and combined power of 2 races. Sol fighting against the GTVA? That would be not only terribly stupid but also suicidal.
Realisticly, Sol has no real chance in a war, it's simply outclassed in manpower, industry and versatility. It might be able to put up a good fight, but that's about it.
I wouldn't bank on that. The relationship between Sol and the rest of the systems of the GTA was never made clear. It could be that Sol was simply the most powerful of a relatively equal alliance of star systems. Or it could be that Sol was the powerhouse of the GTA with the others merely being colonies.
I seem to remember reading that Subspace was only discovered somewhere between 30-50 years before the start of the Great War but I can't remember where now. If true that probably wouldn't be enough time for the colonies to reach anywhere near the power of Sol.
Ten years after the end of The Great War the Luyten New Alliance was a major power. Luyten was uninhabited at the time of the great war. If a system can go from nothing to regional superpower in 10 years it doesn't say much for the power of the other regions. Yes some of that is going to be due to the rest of the former GTA falling apart after the disconnection from Earth but it's a pretty big stretch of the imagination to believe that powerhouse systems of the GTA could fall that far that fast.
Besides it only shows that if Sol didn't fall apart it would have a massive head start over the other former GTA regardless.
So yes, not only do I believe it's plausible that Sol could have the might to take on the GTVA and fight a protracted war similar to that the NTF did. You're the one who always likes to claim that a proper defence can hold any node, are you now going to claim that Sol couldn't hold their node against the GTVA using the techniques you're constantly claiming are so effective?
But I doubt that a defensive war is all Sol is capable of, I'll go further and say it's not unreasonable to say that if it came to a war they might be able to wipe out the GTVA fleet - especially if the Vasudans didn't get into it.
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well the thing is that you are posibli right! I mean look at the GTVA i mean they had to rebuild most of theyr industry shipyard facilaties develop the colonies set up new research stations the works ! And i must admit that they did a fenomenal job at it......well....the vasudans mostly .
Anyway Sol had more then 30 years at its disposal to do nothing but sit around and develop new technologies new weapons new everithing. Also since thry did not have to do much rebuilding in fact no rebuilding at all one might say you can rest asured they could very well not only be on equal footing with the GTVA but also ahead in many ways to the GTVA .
I remember reading somewhere that altough colonies were established outside of Sol sistem for some time before the end of the great war they were in no means anywhere near close to rival Sol . I clearly remember that it said somewhere that Sol was the powerhouse of the GTA with most of the shypyards research and mining operations beeing done there.
Whyle mining and research as well as some shypyards were obviously created outside of the Sol sistem they were but a mere shadow when compared to the power of Sol. Also remember that once the node to Sol was sealed the GTVA had to stop production of the Prometious cannon since the gasses and material needed for the Prometeus could not be found on any other GTVA sistem.
This sugests to me that while Sol was just one sistem they could of supplied close to 80% or more of the total resources needed for the war effort agains the vasudans duriong the great war.
This also leads me to the folowing question:
Exactly how many Orion class destroyers were stationed in Sol at the time of the Lucifer disaster ?? Well i for one have no idea but im willing to bet a lot of them. Also there is the posibilaty that some vasudan fleets would of been stationed in Sol sistem at the time of the Lucifers destruction in order to help protect the terran homeworld and peovide assistance with an eventual evacuation.
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1. To blockade a node you have to know a node is there in the first place and have time to organize it.
The Sol-DS node collapsed. Earth ships would have no reason to blockade that part of space for 40 years or so.
If the GTVA opens the node and immediately send a large force trough they would secure a beachead, even if for some strange reason Sol had a small blockade there.
2. GTA vs. PVN led to a 14-year long war. That's Earth + all of it's colonies vs. Vasuda and it's colonies. Now we have Earth vs. everyone else. You really think they can match that? Obviously the GTVA built new ships and weapons so it's doing quite OK and has enough infrastructure.
3. Even assuming Earth faired excellently, IIRC the 1st fleet was stationed there (1-2 Destroyers). While Earth certanly didn't say still neither did the GTVA. There's also a question of how many ships would Earth build, since it's only one system. There's only a fixed numbers that is can support, or even more important - that it's willing to support. There's usually 1 fleet per system, and I kinda don't thing Earth will have 20+ destroyers at any point, especially after 40 years of no outside threat.
4. GTVA has terrans and vasudans working together on a large scale and also studying shivan tech. There are only several vasudan on Earth at best, and I doubt any of them are scientists. Regardless, the GTVA research potential is surely greater, even if Earth has the Lucy debris. It's not like GTVA hasn't captures and scanned a lot of newer shivan craft.
5. GTVA has node-collapsing ability. Earth wouldn't be able to make any credible attack under threat of a renewed isolation.
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There was a collapsed node in Beta Aquilae that collapsed before the Delta serpentis one did, correct?
Any one else think that because Beta Aquilae is the capital, the GTVA would build the knosses in its stronghold and capital system?
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The seeds of the GTVA were sown before the destruction of the Lucifer, there was already an alliance, I don't think there'd be that much surprise.
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1. To blockade a node you have to know a node is there in the first place and have time to organize it.
The Sol-DS node collapsed. Earth ships would have no reason to blockade that part of space for 40 years or so.
If the GTVA opens the node and immediately send a large force trough they would secure a beachead, even if for some strange reason Sol had a small blockade there.
And the GTVA would do that why? I very much doubt the GTVA would be ready for Sol to turn on them. And even if they did consider it a possibility I doubt they'd then want to provoke Sol but sending a well armed fleet into Sol immediately upon opening the node.
2. GTA vs. PVN led to a 14-year long war. That's Earth + all of it's colonies vs. Vasuda and it's colonies. Now we have Earth vs. everyone else. You really think they can match that? Obviously the GTVA built new ships and weapons so it's doing quite OK and has enough infrastructure.
Did you forget that Vasuda Prime was destroyed? That's an enormous chunk of the Vasudan war making machine gone. If Earth and Vasuda were responsible for 80% of each side's power base that would leave Sol with still 80% - whatever it lost from the node closing and the GTVA with 40% + whatever they built up in the intervening years.
So the sums could go any way you want. Maybe Sol is weak or maybe it's very strong. Yet again you're making assumptions on data you don't have. I'm most certainly not going to say Sol wouldn't have a chance against the rest of the GTVA. What chance they have depends on what percentage of the GTA's power they were and how well they survived isolation.
3. Even assuming Earth faired excellently, IIRC the 1st fleet was stationed there (1-2 Destroyers). While Earth certanly didn't say still neither did the GTVA. There's also a question of how many ships would Earth build, since it's only one system. There's only a fixed numbers that is can support, or even more important - that it's willing to support. There's usually 1 fleet per system, and I kinda don't thing Earth will have 20+ destroyers at any point, especially after 40 years of no outside threat.
Sol presumably doesn't know that the Shivans lost the Great War. They could be sitting there waiting for the Shivans to reopen the node. The GTVA built the Colossus even though they knew they had won. I'd expect at least as much from Sol and probably a lot more.
As for support, Capella, headquarters of the 3rd Fleet has a population of 250 million. What the population of Sol would by then is debatable but even assuming that they have 6 billion that's 24 times the population of Capella. Assuming that scales it would mean a fleet 24 times larger. As big as the assumed size of the entire GTVA fleet in other words.
And I don't think it's unreasonable for them to build that many ships if they think the Shivans are coming back.
4. GTVA has terrans and vasudans working together on a large scale and also studying shivan tech. There are only several vasudan on Earth at best, and I doubt any of them are scientists. Regardless, the GTVA research potential is surely greater, even if Earth has the Lucy debris. It's not like GTVA hasn't captures and scanned a lot of newer shivan craft.
Fair point but the question has to be how that balances against the extra time that Sol had due to not having to bother with reconstruction of their homeworld. Sol probably had access to everything that the GTI got out of the Shivans. They might even have had the only copies of some of this info. Sol may also have had access to everything the Hades Rebellion had. Hell they might have been building the first Hades but when they were cut off the GTI nicked the plans and came up with a master plan to use them.
5. GTVA has node-collapsing ability. Earth wouldn't be able to make any credible attack under threat of a renewed isolation.
Fair point but it is only likely they'd do that while Sol forces were still in Sol. As soon as they invade Delta Serpentis it becomes very unlikely they'd seal a node and cut off both the old and new Terran capitals along with all the GTVA systems in the Ross 128 section of the GTVA.
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My first option would be to send through a probe saying, basically, 'Hello, it's us, we've fixed the node, still allied with the Vasudans, if you can, reply, if we don't hear in 24 hours, we're sending though a investigation team.'
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Bah, you should send a note through saying "Party in Alpha Centauri next week. Khonsu II says bring bottle and bird."
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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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By bottom line is, that Sol, regardless of how big and well developed it is, is still just ONE system. While the GTVA has 20. Less developed, smaller, but it's still 20.
And it's a safe bet that Sol had it's troubles with the isolation too. Think of all the trade and $ influx lost in an instant. I bet most companies had their HQ in Sol and most companies in Sol earned most of their $ from deals with the other colonies.
Just think what would happen in the US is suddenly to get isolated from the rest of the world. Utter chaos and economical collapse.
I'm just not seeing Sol as a real threat to the GTVA - either in pure material/resource way or the mentality way. Like I said, Sol going to war against the GTVA is such a stupid idea (no offense to anyone in the INF team), that I find it hard it could ever happen.
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I would think there would be a bit of friction but maybe not outright war.
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By bottom line is, that Sol, regardless of how big and well developed it is, is still just ONE system. While the GTVA has 20. Less developed, smaller, but it's still 20.
Tell you what. Let's play global war. I'll have Russia and you can have all of Africa. That's 50 countries to my 1.
Game begins.
Trashman begins massing troops in Egypt for an invasion.
Karajorma launches a massive thermonuclear strike
Game over. Karajorma wins.
You can keep repeating your 20-1 mantra all you like. It means **** all unless you can prove that the GTVA systems are as developed as Sol is.
And it's a safe bet that Sol had it's troubles with the isolation too. Think of all the trade and $ influx lost in an instant. I bet most companies had their HQ in Sol and most companies in Sol earned most of their $ from deals with the other colonies.
Just think what would happen in the US is suddenly to get isolated from the rest of the world. Utter chaos and economical collapse.
Probably. But even if it did collapse so did the Terran half of the GTVA. And Sol would have been a better position to rebuild. Same as America would be.
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I actually agree with Trashman on this one, something about Earth going to war against the GTVA just seems patently ridiculous. As for population size/production capacity, citing population figures as if they actually mean anything in a military context is a red herring. North Korea has the worlds largest standing army, but a measly population, because most of the population IS the army.
As for production capacity, I understood Earth was the major hub of R&D, not necessarily a major source of raw materials for said production though. Additional resources are one of the reasons for expansion in the first place, and Earth has just been cut off from all it's colonies. Think Great Britain and it's empire (the sun never set on it): Why pay to import the things you lack when you can expand into the places they came from?
A lot of the technical innovations in the modern fleet have been collaborative efforts with the Vasudans, and they do seem to have a definite advantage in certain fields (reactor design, engines, their beams are better), so assuming Earth would have ships that are our equals or betters after being dramatically cut off from the rest of the known universe and recovering from the (quite logical) discord that would bring....strikes me as a VERY big assumption. That they would be hostile to the GTVA after we rescue them from isolation just feels....well, like a stupid idea.
Whether campaigns based on that premise are entertaining or not is an entirely different matter, but the premise itself is hardly compelling.
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I'm not saying that Sol is more powerful. I'm saying it's silly to say they couldn't be more powerful.
I actually agree with Trashman on this one, something about Earth going to war against the GTVA just seems patently ridiculous. As for population size/production capacity, citing population figures as if they actually mean anything in a military context is a red herring. North Korea has the worlds largest standing army, but a measly population, because most of the population IS the army.
So you have to ask yourself why NK has such a large army. Which is exactly what Trashman hasn't been doing. As I said before Sol may not know the war has been over for 30 years. They might have been preparing ships and weapons at great economic cost for the last 30 years. They could be nearly bankrupt with a massive military completely disproportionate to their economy.
And then the GTVA open the portal and swan in all fat and happy with bulging money sacks. Still think in that context that Sol might not start a war? Especially if they can create a reason to sell to the population based around some political nonsense (like joining the GTVA or ratifying BETAC).
As for production capacity, I understood Earth was the major hub of R&D, not necessarily a major source of raw materials for said production though. Additional resources are one of the reasons for expansion in the first place, and Earth has just been cut off from all it's colonies. Think Great Britain and it's empire (the sun never set on it): Why pay to import the things you lack when you can expand into the places they came from?
Until the GTVA gas mined the nebula Sol was the only place the GTA could get argon for the Prometheus for one thing. That sounds like at least in one area they have better resource production capabilities than the GTVA does. Furthermore Sol is obviously going to be the most exploited system. Especially if intrasystem jump engines were invented before intersystem ones were. As long as those mines aren't tapped out it's quite possible that Sol can out produce anything else in the Terran half of the GTVA simply because they have been doing it the longest.
A lot of the technical innovations in the modern fleet have been collaborative efforts with the Vasudans, and they do seem to have a definite advantage in certain fields (reactor design, engines, their beams are better), so assuming Earth would have ships that are our equals or betters after being dramatically cut off from the rest of the known universe and recovering from the (quite logical) discord that would bring....strikes me as a VERY big assumption.
Again I didn't assume they were. Trashman assumed they weren't.
We have no idea on the number of Vasudan scientists in Sol. There could actually have been quite a few of them. The GTA and PVN were collaborating on things like shielding very quickly after the start of the Great War. It's quite reasonable that much of this research went on in the two most powerful systems, Sol and Vasuda Prime. So lets not assume that Sol doesn't have access to Vasudan tech. They might have access to quite a bit of it.
Secondly you mentioned NK before and it's worth pointing out that they are now a nuclear power despite being one of the most isolated countries in the world. Necessity is the mother of invention and a world that is expecting a Shivan armada to pour into their system at any minute would be spending a much larger sum on R&D than the GTVA ever would. The GTVA after all only seems to spend large sums on R&D during war time. The fact that the NTF seem to be using mainly Great War era fighters seems to show that they weren't that uncommon before the start of the NTF rebellion. So the GTVA might only have been spending large sums on R&D the 18 months before the 2nd Great War. While Sol could easily have been doing that for 40 years.
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Tell you what. Let's play global war. I'll have Russia and you can have all of Africa. That's 50 countries to my 1.
Game begins.
Trashman begins massing troops in Egypt for an invasion.
Karajorma launches a massive thermonuclear strike
Game over. Karajorma wins.
You forget to factor in that my side has nukes too :P
More of them.
A more correct comparison would be russia vs Europe, Africa, South America and a few random Asian countries.
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You forget to factor in that my side has nukes too :P
More of them.
:wtf: Either your understanding of the world as it is today is even less rooted in reality than I thought it was or you're attempting to turn an analogy into one of those stupid forum battles where you think that cause you type something it makes it true.
South Africa is the only country in Africa with nukes. It has next to none and it lacks the delivery system to hit Russia.
A more correct comparison would be russia vs Europe, Africa, South America and a few random Asian countries.
Unless you include China or India that's still a losing battle. Which kinda proves my point. What matters is each sides capacity to make war. Not just a simple numerical comparison of the number of systems they control.
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I think it's reasonable that Sol has easily 5 fleets worth of ships. Those ships are likely a combination of proven Great War relics, highly-upgraded relics, and brand new technology. Seeing an Ursa Mk.III wouldn't surprise me--nor would a Prometheus Mk.IV. They would likely take tried and true ships and weapons to make sure that new tech's flaws don't stop a war effort.
Anyways--I think it's actually safe to assume that Sol had 100% of the information on the Shivans upon about 1 hour before the node collapsed. They also have ALL the Lucifer's debris--so it's quite likely any Hades-esque ships they design, build, and upgrade will be will be much better then our Hades. Completely shielded, the best-of-the-best weapons, and probably even planet-razing weapons. In short--I think it's safe to assume that, if in a war with the GTVA, their Lucifer rip-off would tear apart most every ship we have.
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They also have ALL the Lucifer's debris
Not true. Watch the endgame cutscene again. Sol has half the Lucifer's debris (tho they did indeed get a relatively intact "arm", complete with damaged flux cannon).
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I think the GTA would be extremely strong. Unless the Colonies decided to produce as many children as they possibly could, the population of Sol would dwarf them. The total Earth population would be bigger unless there had been Billions of people deciding to leave Sol as soon as Subspace was discovered, bearing in mind there is an interstellar war going on, this is unlikely. The GTVA may have better resources, but as a centre of industry, Sol would be much more powerful. When the Lucifer looked as if it would destroy Earth, it was talked of as an extinction level event. If there were anything like the amount of people outside Sol as inside Sol it wouldn't have been as big a deal.
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Hey. but why are we now all of a sudden talking that the Sol people would now start making a war - i mean, humans are STUCK in their Sol system. Get boring, especially since they can travel quite well. Lonely too.
Uh, excuse me for JI'ing into your, uh what was it again? Ah yes, your forum battle but surely kara, that even if the GTVA were so outdated by the Terrans, then the Terrans in the GTVA are so interested in space <obviously> so maybe they'll do anything at all costs.
Sheer numbers could overwhelm sheer technology.
If Sol had 100 Meson Bombs, there would still be a reasonable GTVA force left to fight.
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Why would either side go in guns blazing in the first place? That's what confuses me. There are some possible reasons, one of which is used in Inferno, but, at the ends of the day, the odds are pretty high that the GTVA is not going to build a Knossos to Earth just to send a War-group through, and it's also unlikely that Earth is going to resist the chance to re-establish its Empire and the resources/knowledge that would include access to.
The GTVA is mostly still in concept stage, whilst the ships work together, they are still, for the main part Terran and Vasudan ships, battlegroups and command groups, even if there is an over-arching governance that is mixed-race, in fact its very existence was put under strain by the NTF, had the Shivans not arrived, it may well have fractured under its own differences.
Earth would still be the political centre of an entire race, people on Earth know that, and so do the people in the GTVA, they aren't trying to get back purely because they need the resources, they are trying to get back because it is their home.
I don't think Earth would even want to resist rejoining the GTVA, there is no way it could get less out of it than it already has.
Edit: Oh, and regarding the discussion that is ensuing in here, think Londo and G'Kar, though I refuse to state which is which....
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Hey. but why are we now all of a sudden talking that the Sol people would now start making a war - i mean, humans are STUCK in their Sol system. Get boring, especially since they can travel quite well. Lonely too.
Hey, we're stuck on our planet right now, and there's only 6.7 billion of us, as opposed to however many would be 350 years from now. How come we're not suffering from boredom and loneliness?
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Sol may have superior manpower, but in some respects I think they probably had to play catch-up, as the demands of the 14-Year-War for forward bases capable of repairing and resupplying the GTA's warships would have placed much of the GTA's military infrastructure closer to the front lines, while there were safer (supposedly) systems for important research and development; Ross 128 and Laramis, for example, are further from Vasudan lines then Sol. The GTA was testing their prototype shielding before the Great War in Ross 128; Laramis became the headquarters of RNI Shipyards, who produced some of the most cutting-edge ships the GTVA had. The GTVA's Terran fleets were not, apparently, significantly weaker than their Great War-era strength. Probably stronger even. Nor were the Vasudan fleets substantially weaker. Sol has much less to start from.
Similarly, even if Earth was the major horsepower behind the GTA, there is the matter of the Vasudans, who fought the GTA to a standstill lest we forget. They lost Vasuda Prime, but the Terran colonies would at the least make up for the slack from that, while their subtraction from any possible Solar war effort must mean that it would not be as powerful as that of the GTA of old; perhaps not by much, but it would. Thus Sol's military power would be doubly damaged.
Thus I think at best in a military confrontation Sol could hope for stalemate. At worst, badly outmatched. However I view the likelyhood of military confrontation as slim. There is no real valid reason for one side or the other to want it. The GTVA starting it is a slim possiblity at best; its leaders can probably remember when their home was accessible. Sol starting it is perhaps slightly more reasonable, but not much.
In the end, lest we forget, not long enough has truely passed to seperate them so greatly. The leaders on both sides would perhaps have been 20 when the node was cut. There would still be direct relationships of family on both sides. Brother against brother is never something undertaken on a whim.
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Ultimatley, the Reactionis whatever the storyteller makes it...
Terran Civil War between GTVA/Sol gov
Peaceful Earth
Sol in complete anachy...
Whatever...
It all depends on the person telling the story
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Why would either side go in guns blazing in the first place? That's what confuses me. There are some possible reasons, one of which is used in Inferno, but, at the ends of the day, the odds are pretty high that the GTVA is not going to build a Knossos to Earth just to send a War-group through, and it's also unlikely that Earth is going to resist the chance to re-establish its Empire and the resources/knowledge that would include access to.
I doubt that Sol would go in guns blazing either. But there is a reasonable possibility that within a few months to a few years a war could start. Basically what you have here is a motherland/colonies situation. When Sol is reconnected there's a lot of chance for friction between the two. The colonies have had more than 30 years of independence from Sol and have gotten used to doing things their own way.
Now suppose the Knossos is opened and Sol wants to as you said "re-establish its Empire" and to become the centre of the GTVA (especially the Terran half of it). That's going to cause all kinds of friction with the GTVA. They could very easily resent this kind of action and it wouldn't take much for a power struggle to build up between Sol and the Terran side of the GTVA.
Whatever state Sol is in it's going to want to reclaim its place. But if it is militarily powerful then the sabre rattling could actually escalate to a real war.
As for the Vasudans, they could very easily decide that a war between the Terran half of the GTVA and Sol is an internal human matter and simply not get involved. Especially if there are Vasudans in Sol who agree with the war.
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Human nature. You gotta love it, fights break out over the smallest silliest little misunderstandings. There are no guarantees that it wouldn't be peachy, but no promises that it would either :)
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Well the way i see it the vasudans siding with the terran side of the GTVA is very posible. After all it is not just the terrans that would suffer from a war with the Sol GTA it would be the entire GTVA economy. So a war between the terran side of the GTVA and Sol would bring in the vasudans as well.
However i must admit that the chance of a war breaking out is very slim but it is a chance nevertheless.
Also let us not foget that we can not speak of terran sistems and vasudan sistems anymore. We can speak of sistem mostly inhabited by either vasudans or terrans but the exclusivities went out the window with Capella and the NTF rebelion since a very good way to keep NTF lunatics at bay is to remove the terran sistems exclusivety. Sure in the short term that would bring some unrest but in the long term it would create a balance and it would be very good for the economy of both races.
Also sistems like DS and Beta Aquilae are most definetly heavely populated by both terrans and vasudans that you can rest assured.
And there is another thing we can be sure of while Sol may want to regain its former power and empire it has no way of dooing it withoput a full scale war and has a very great deal to lose from such an undertaking. NoSol's best option would be to become one of the core sistem The most important ones like DS, Beta Aquilae . They could have representatives in the ruling body of the GTVA abd GTVA command .
However the alliance is reaching its breaking point because it is very limited in its prerogatives since its basicly more of a milatary alliance with the economics folowing.
I believe that with the Sol node reopened there would be a bit of discusions about changing the form of gouverment from its current state to that of a federation or something like that. This would make both Sol and the GTVA happy since the GTVA sistems can keep their independece whyle at the same time the 3 Major sistems would have control over what is actualy gooing on! Somtheing like a parliament or something similar .
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The Vasudans think that the Terrans are dumb and aggressive but then that was before they really got to know each other.
Besides it's in the human nature to keep on killing - like their never sick of dying.
Valiant, but ill-advised . . . hopefully.
Unless of course that the AI level of your enemies are so bad that 99.99% of the time you stay alive, unless you get hit by an ULTRA-Anti fighter beam.
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Well that is one of the reason why there are mixed fleets in the GTVA and that is why ships normaly destroyer sized ships usualy operate at least some pilots form the other race. This is to improve uderstanding and cooperation. Also Capella was not just a terran sistem there was also a strong vasudan presence there but it was mostly terran. A lot of terran pilots and ships were killed/destroyed tring to protect convois form both races and that is something which can not exactly be forgotten easely. I mean I would think something like :" WTF they dies tring to save our asses back there and now you want me to turn they back on them" For what reason?? So that Sol can come and tell me how to live..? No way in hell...!
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Well the way i see it the vasudans siding with the terran side of the GTVA is very posible. After all it is not just the terrans that would suffer from a war with the Sol GTA it would be the entire GTVA economy. So a war between the terran side of the GTVA and Sol would bring in the vasudans as well.
Actually war can be pretty good for economies that sit the war out. If the Vasudans did sit it out they could probably trade to both sides secure in the knowledge that neither side would be dumb enough to attack them. As long as the Vasudans aren't likely to be hit by crossfire they might not consider it a big problem to stay out of the war.
It's already been stated that after 18 months of fighting in the NTF rebellion that the Alliance was already strained. If Sol was to start a war so soon after the end of the last one there would definitely be calls to not interfere in yet another Terran war. Especially if the Vasudans thought that they could trade with whoever won.
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But that would be justa playng stupid to allow the 2 sides to annihalete eachother and when the shivans come then what?? You sjust tell them to comeback later when yu have a chance to increase the size of your fleet 3 times and come up with some uber wweaponj capable of holding them back at bay for alittle longer. No the NTF rebellion might have strained the realationship between the terrans and the vasudans but the shivans reminded them that they need eachotehr more then ever. Niether side could hope to be powerfull enough to withstand the shivans on theyr own. So i believe that not only would the vasudans intervene in the war but they wouldso try to convince the terran side of the GTVA to annihalate the milatary power of Sol as soon as posible and take control over its vas industryal and economic resources not to mention mining operations.
Remember Sol has a vast astereoid belt which can be mined for minerals and not to mention at least one rare gas the GTVA needs who know what else they might have that the GTVA needs badly in order to move tech forwards.
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So in order to make sure that their military isn't depleted when the Shivans come back the Vasudans would get into a war they could avoid? :wtf:
There are many reasons the Vasudans might enter the war but I really don't think that's one of them.
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We lasted 14 years against the zods before the reds turned up. I reckon Sol would last at least a month or two. :)
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Agreed they can preserve they milatary by staing out of the war and then what? The terran side of the GTVA would be exausted the Sol forces would be exausted and depleted as well so then what they try to take care of the shivans on their own?? I hardly think so.
No the vasudans if nothing else would serve as a deterrant in case anyone from Sol even thinks about starting a war. I agree that the Sol milatary would be very powerfull perhaps alsmost as powerfull as the entire GTVA fleets but then again the GTVA would definetly win against Sol if they play it smart. Please take note that it will be some time for a gate to be opened to Sol and in the mean time the GTVA can just addapt and improve more shivan tech and implement it into their own ship designs and weapon sistems.
This would be a definitive advantage if sufficient time is alowed for the GTVA over Sol tech. Acces to the latest shivan tech can come very handy . And we know that the GTVA is very adept at reverse engeniering adapting improving alien tech . Hell they did it to some extents and in various areas in a few what weeks months during the Second great war.
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Hell they did it to some extents and in various areas in a few what weeks months during the Second great war.
When? :confused:
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:wtf: Either your understanding of the world as it is today is even less rooted in reality than I thought it was or you're attempting to turn an analogy into one of those stupid forum battles where you think that cause you type something it makes it true.
South Africa is the only country in Africa with nukes. It has next to none and it lacks the delivery system to hit Russia.
I said if you want to make a ACCURATE comparison in terms of the power of both sides (Sol & GTVA), not in terms of RL. Since when does Sol have uber-super weapons(the proverbial nukes) and the GTVA doesn't?
Now let's analyze the situation:
1. Manpower
Capella, which on the far side of nowhere has 250 million humans. Look how far it is from Sol and the core of human space - it's definately a later colony.
It's safe to assume that the inner colonies are far better off and with a much higher population, especially the first colonies, like Delta Serpentis. Population is becoming a problem now, so it's safe to assume there's been a LOT of immigration.
It's a safe bet that just the human colonies have a bigger population than Earth. Now factor in the vasudans.
2. Resources
The only exclusive resource mentioned in Sol is Argon gas. In 20+ systems that are mostly vergin territory compared to Sol you can bet you will have a lot more resources than Sol has.
3. Infrastructure
Vasudans, without Vasuda Prime, seem to have a perfectly healthy production infrastructure, since they are replacing all of their destroyers with Hatties. Humans have been recovering slower, but it's a safe bet that they have a good infrastructure as well. After 14 years of war the infrastructure needed to mantain a war machine is surely established on most planets. Hades...Colossuss..and a bunch of new warship classes..I'd say their infrastructure is doing very well.
Let's not forget a nice example of the USA who in a very short ammount of time went from a colony to a power that eclipses it's old home (Europe)
4. Military
2 races with 20+ star system would definately field a bigger war machine than a single system.. Especially after the shivan BBQ demonstration. It wil ltake GTVA 5-10 years to get a Knossos up and running and you cna bet that in that time they WILL beef up their military significantly.
5. Going to War
You say that Earth might be so scared of another sihan invasion that they beefed up their defenses. I agree..in fact, hat's what happens in my campaign. However, there are two things to consider:
- the GTVA beefing up theirs as well
- If they did for fear of shivans, you REALLY think that after contact is re-esablished and the GTVA tells them the shivies used 80 ships (that make Lucy look like a whimp) to blow up a star..that after that they will decide to go to war with the GTVA? If anything thy would be evenmore scared and want an union, insted of a war that could only end up badly..and even in the bestest of best scenarios, weaken them considerably.
Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the systems/planets had a large degree of autonomy withing the GTA and they have it also with the GTVA now. So I really don' understand what kind of a friction you're reffering to here, since the old way of governing planets would be tthe same as the new.
the only possible friction would be if the Sol government wanted to pull the strings (which is doubtfull, the alliance was formed before the link was severed so the Sol would know how the GTVA works).
Even then, the public support would be vvery questionable.
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As long as we all get welcome back baskets, full of obligatory whiskey and the like. I'm all for it. :D
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Err remember the terran mara and the Are fighter which is built using reverse engeniered shivan tech well pieces of it anyway i think it was mentioned in the tech room that the ares is the cutting endge in GTVA tech and it was possible in part because of extensive research done into shivan tech's.
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It's already been stated that after 18 months of fighting in the NTF rebellion that the Alliance was already strained. If Sol was to start a war so soon after the end of the last one there would definitely be calls to not interfere in yet another Terran war. Especially if the Vasudans thought that they could trade with whoever won.
A rebelllion and a war with anohter system are two different things.
Firstly, in a rebellion part of your own forces turn against you. The GTVA lsot 3 systems and a minimum of 3 fleets, if not more, within an instant. Bosch was a excellent strategists who knew how to drag it out, but he knew the NTF was not to last - as he said, it was tool. He didn't expect the rebelion to last himself.
So there is a big difference between fighting a rebelion that eats you up from the inside and turns your own resources against you, and attacking another system with all your forces in tact and under your command.
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Err remember the terran mara and the Are fighter which is built using reverse engeniered shivan tech
The Are? If you mean the Ares, it was merely a Herc2, that was taken into Pimp My Ride. If you mean the Erinyes, it was indeed a funky ship, but wasn't based on Shivan technology. The Kayser, on the other hand, was. It was the preferred primary weapon on the Erinyes and it was created after extensive research on Shivan weapon technology.
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If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..
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Yeah sorry about that i meant to say the Ares ! The tech room i believe states that some shivan tech was implemented into the Ares and that the Erynyes was in some ways influenced by shivan tech ! The kaiser is obviusly one weapon of choice and what a weapon it is! The terran Mara was a formidable ship and you can rest assured something based on the Terran mara is soon to come in order to replace the Herc as the main Heavy fighter for the GTVA !
The Mara is more then capable of taking over for the Herc II and a very good dogfighter hell its better then some space superiority fighter in the GTVA !
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If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..
But it was never explicitly stated that they had Shivan tech in them. Therefore, it is pure speculation to assume that they had Shivan tech in them.
Yeah sorry about that i meant to say the Ares ! The tech room i believe states that some shivan tech was implemented into the Ares and that the Erynyes was in some ways influenced by shivan tech !
GTF Erinyes craft are fresh off the drawing boards of Triton Dynamics. Though fast and heavily armored, their main attraction is firepower. With eight primary banks and two secondary weapon bays, Erinyes are at the top of the combat craft food chain. Both sets of weapon banks have been designed to maximize compatibility with the greatest possible number of weapon system. Erinyes-class ships are being evenly distributed through the GTVA fleet, but only elite pilots are currently authorized to fly them.
The GTF Ares class of fighters is a radical upgrade of the Hercules II fighter. The power plant has been completely replaced with the newer, more powerful Nankam NA-27f model. Depleted uranium shielding has been added atop critical subsystems, making the Ares harder to incapacitate. Two primary weapon banks have been added, for greater firepower than the Herc II. This greater punch and protection come at a cost, however, as the Ares handles like a potato.
Not a single word about Shivans there.
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If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..
But it was never explicitly stated that they had Shivan tech in them. Therefore, it is pure speculation to assume that they had Shivan tech in them.
Not shivan tech directly..shivan DERIVED tech.
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If it was the most modern fighter the GTVA had you can bet it had some shivan lineage in it..
But it was never explicitly stated that they had Shivan tech in them. Therefore, it is pure speculation to assume that they had Shivan tech in them.
Not shivan tech directly..shivan DERIVED tech.
Well, the word 'derived' wasn't used either. No canon proof that there's anything in those ships that's even remotely related to Shivans. Apart from Kaysers.
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and the fact that the first time i saw the Ares i believed it to be some sort of wierd shivan ship has nothing to do with my belief that the Design of the Ares was in some ways influenced by the shivans and in some tech aspect perhaps. Also i see you keep dodging the terrna Mara a fluke yes a definitive prototipe for futher maras or derivatives off it perhaps some of them more powerfull of course.
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Well, the word 'derived' wasn't used either. No canon proof that there's anything in those ships that's even remotely related to Shivans. Apart from Kaysers.
Common sense.
Most advanced ships use most advanced tech.
Most advanced tech the GTVA has undoubtedly has had a huge shivan influence. 32 years of studying shivan craft and weapons - I'd say every new craft has some "shivan" in it.
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Well if we think about the term 'Shivan influence' as wide as possible, don't you think that Terran ships had Shivan influence back in the Great war? I mean, they did capture a Dragon and study it. They reverse-engineered it. They monitored Shivan fighters and learnt how to enable inter-system jumps for fighters. So in this case we shouldn't state that 'new' craft have some Shivan in them, when probably the originall Hercules had 'some Shivan' in it. As well as some older weapons. Not to mention sensors, shields and such. Right?
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I said if you want to make a ACCURATE comparison in terms of the power of both sides (Sol & GTVA), not in terms of RL. Since when does Sol have uber-super weapons(the proverbial nukes) and the GTVA doesn't?
I was explaining he pointlessness of your GTVA has 20 systems while Sol has 1 nonsense and nothing more. It matters not how many systems the GTVA has. What matters is the combined military might of those systems.
1. ManpowerCapella, which on the far side of nowhere has 250 million humans. Look how far it is from Sol and the core of human space - it's definately a later colony.
It's safe to assume that the inner colonies are far better off and with a much higher population, especially the first colonies, like Delta Serpentis. Population is becoming a problem now, so it's safe to assume there's been a LOT of immigration.
It's a safe bet that just the human colonies have a bigger population than Earth. Now factor in the vasudans.[/quote]
It's not a safe bet in the slightest. If subspace was only discovered 10 years before the start of the TV war it's doubtful that there were anywhere near that number. Capella is also the home of the 3rd fleet. That indicates it's quite a powerful system regardless of its age or distance from Sol. Again I'll point out that Luyten went from uninhabited to regional power in under 10 years. That doesn't bode well for the colonies being very powerful or highly inhabited.
2. ResourcesThe only exclusive resource mentioned in Sol is Argon gas. In 20+ systems that are mostly vergin territory compared to Sol you can bet you will have a lot more resources than Sol has.[/quote]
More resources yes. Capacity to exploit them? Who knows. Sol has probably been exploiting its planets for upwards of one hundred years. It could have a vast resource gathering capacity far dwarfing the remainder of the Terran systems in the GTVA.
3. Infrastructure
Vasudans, without Vasuda Prime, seem to have a perfectly healthy production infrastructure, since they are replacing all of their destroyers with Hatties. Humans have been recovering slower, but it's a safe bet that they have a good infrastructure as well. After 14 years of war the infrastructure needed to mantain a war machine is surely established on most planets. Hades...Colossuss..and a bunch of new warship classes..I'd say their infrastructure is doing very well.[/quote]
They might be doing well. But so might Sol. And Sol might have had a better starting point. In fact it's canon that Sol was a better starting point.
For generations, Earth had been the political, economic, and cultural center of Terran civilization. Humans still measured time in hours, days, months, and years. They named their ships after the mythological figures of ancient Terran civilizations, and systems were still identified according to the constellations observed from Earth. The planet served as capital of the GTA, and the bulk of the Terran industrial base was located in the Sol system.
Can't believe I missed that last time I looked. :rolleyes: I knew there was a reason I thought Sol was the powerhouse of the GTA.
Let's not forget a nice example of the USA who in a very short ammount of time went from a colony to a power that eclipses it's old home (Europe)
Do you mean the 200 years it took from starting colonisation to gaining independence or the 300 odd years till they became a major world power?
4. Military2 races with 20+ star system would definately field a bigger war machine than a single system.. [/quote]
Continents with 50 countries will definitely field a bigger war machine than a single country like Russia. See where I was going with that now?
Besides you're again assuming the Vasudans will get involved in the war. They may not.
Especially after the shivan BBQ demonstration. It wil ltake GTVA 5-10 years to get a Knossos up and running and you cna bet that in that time they WILL beef up their military significantly.
And for all you know Sol will be beefing up their military in preparation for a Shivan invasion too.
5. Going to War
You say that Earth might be so scared of another sihan invasion that they beefed up their defenses. I agree..in fact, hat's what happens in my campaign. However, there are two things to consider:
- the GTVA beefing up theirs as well
- If they did for fear of shivans, you REALLY think that after contact is re-esablished and the GTVA tells them the shivies used 80 ships (that make Lucy look like a whimp) to blow up a star..that after that they will decide to go to war with the GTVA? If anything thy would be evenmore scared and want an union, insted of a war that could only end up badly..and even in the bestest of best scenarios, weaken them considerably.
History is full of examples of powers fighting amongst themselves to ruin of both sides. Occasionally when they were aware of the danger of the 3rd party. How many of the worlds current conflicts happened for completely logical reasons? How many throughout history?
Sure it would be nicer for all concerned if they'd all be friends. Doesn't mean that's what will happen. You could rule out the possibility of the Hades Rebellion happening using similar arguments.
Also, someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the systems/planets had a large degree of autonomy withing the GTA and they have it also with the GTVA now. So I really don' understand what kind of a friction you're reffering to here, since the old way of governing planets would be tthe same as the new.
the only possible friction would be if the Sol government wanted to pull the strings (which is doubtfull, the alliance was formed before the link was severed so the Sol would know how the GTVA works).
Even then, the public support would be vvery questionable.
You're assuming the GTA and the GTVA are the same thing. I'm not assuming that at all. The GTA could easily have been a rigid system run from Earth.
Terran civilization developed to the point of relatively stable nation-states. With space travel, the nation-state evolved into the global-state and the Terran species furthered its growth, both in material ways and in immaterial, philosophical ways. In time, the global-state led to the intersystem-state, which in turn led to the Galactic Terran Alliance, a galactic-state.
Make of that what you will.
It's already been stated that after 18 months of fighting in the NTF rebellion that the Alliance was already strained. If Sol was to start a war so soon after the end of the last one there would definitely be calls to not interfere in yet another Terran war. Especially if the Vasudans thought that they could trade with whoever won.
A rebelllion and a war with anohter system are two different things.
Firstly, in a rebellion part of your own forces turn against you. The GTVA lsot 3 systems and a minimum of 3 fleets, if not more, within an instant. Bosch was a excellent strategists who knew how to drag it out, but he knew the NTF was not to last - as he said, it was tool. He didn't expect the rebelion to last himself.
So there is a big difference between fighting a rebelion that eats you up from the inside and turns your own resources against you, and attacking another system with all your forces in tact and under your command.
Did you even read what I wrote or did you just start talking after reading the words NTF rebellion? :rolleyes:
I wasn't comparing a rebellion and a war. I was saying that the rebellion strained relations between the two. Even after the Shivans had come back relations were still strained. The Vasudans might not be willing to get involved in another war between humans. Especially as this time round their systems wouldn't be immediately under threat.
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I was explaining he pointlessness of your GTVA has 20 systems while Sol has 1 nonsense and nothing more. It matters not how many systems the GTVA has. What matters is the combined military might of those systems.
You can't say it doesn't matter. The resources and manpower don't matter? Territory doesn't matter? Size doesn't matter? Since when?
It's not a safe bet in the slightest. If subspace was only discovered 10 years before the start of the TV war it's doubtful that there were anywhere near that number. Capella is also the home of the 3rd fleet. That indicates it's quite a powerful system regardless of its age or distance from Sol. Again I'll point out that Luyten went from uninhabited to regional power in under 10 years. That doesn't bode well for the colonies being very powerful or highly inhabited.
I don't recall any canon year for discovery of subspace. Nor anything of the status of earth or any colonies it might have had using other, more primitive methods.
And actually, what you just pointed out bodes very well indeed. If Capella, who IS really far out and apparently was colonised after the Great War is, as you say, a "powerful system with a fleet" then long-established systems like DS are even moreso.
It would be also nice to compare the speed at which chinas infrastructure is growing and USA one is. When you already have a established infrastructure it grows slowly after that, since all your needs are fulfilled. When you don't, it skyrockets.
More resources yes. Capacity to exploit them? Who knows. Sol has probably been exploiting its planets for upwards of one hundred years. It could have a vast resource gathering capacity far dwarfing the remainder of the Terran systems in the GTVA.
It's not like establishing a mine is a difficult thing. Especially in the future. Mining and refining really shouldn't be a problem for any civilization that can build 2km long warships.
They might be doing well. But so might Sol. And Sol might have had a better starting point. In fact it's canon that Sol was a better starting point.
It does have a better starting point. But in the long run that doesn't mean a thing. Sol's potential is limited compared to what the GTVA can achieve.
Let's not forget that after the node collapse, the GTVA was left with the bulk of the terran fleet.
Do you mean the 200 years it took from starting colonisation to gaining independence or the 300 odd years till they became a major world power?
Apparently, things move a lot faster in the modern age. Look at Germany and how it recovered after 2 wars...or Japan. 40 years is more than enough.
You're assuming the GTA and the GTVA are the same thing. I'm not assuming that at all. The GTA could easily have been a rigid system run from Earth.
Terran civilization developed to the point of relatively stable nation-states. With space travel, the nation-state evolved into the global-state and the Terran species furthered its growth, both in material ways and in immaterial, philosophical ways. In time, the global-state led to the intersystem-state, which in turn led to the Galactic Terran Alliance, a galactic-state.
Make of that what you will.
I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking exactly how the GTA was set up.
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You can't say it doesn't matter. The resources and manpower don't matter? Territory doesn't matter? Size doesn't matter? Since when?
They'd all be part of a system's military might. Having lots of ships means bugger all if you can't resupply them or replace them when damaged. But the number of systems as a simple number does not matter in the slightest. Having more systems and more resources means bugger all if they aren't exploited. They weren't 40 years ago. That much is obvious from the quote about Sol having the bulk of the industrial base. They still might not be exploited anywhere near as heavily as the Sol is even now.
The fleet we see in FS1 is the GTA fleet after 14 years of war. It's said several times that the war had economically drained the GTA (the powerhouse of which was in Sol). Since the end of the war Sol could have had 40 years of peace. They might be even stronger than they were back when they were the major power of the GTA.
I don't recall any canon year for discovery of subspace.
Which is why I said IF. :p
And actually, what you just pointed out bodes very well indeed. If Capella, who IS really far out and apparently was colonised after the Great War is, as you say, a "powerful system with a fleet" then long-established systems like DS are even moreso.
Not when you consider that the GTA suffered an economic collapse after the end of the Great War. Capella could easily be one of the most powerful systems in the GTVA. Again long established systems couldn't compete with completely new ones like Luyten after the Great War.
DS might have picked simply because of it's central location/proximity to Earth. Capitals aren't always the most powerful place in the state after all. DS might simply be the equivalent of Brasilia or Islamabad. It may have been nothing much until it became the Terran Capital. The fact that it wasn't one of the 4 great blocs that eventually formed the Terran part of the GTVA seems to suggest that it wasn't a powerful system.
It's not like establishing a mine is a difficult thing. Especially in the future. Mining and refining really shouldn't be a problem for any civilization that can build 2km long warships.
If it isn't difficult after hundreds of years Sol must have ****loads.
It does have a better starting point. But in the long run that doesn't mean a thing. Sol's potential is limited compared to what the GTVA can achieve.
Potential yes, but it takes time to exploit potential. And you have to have history on your side. Africa has loads of potential but they've done **** all with it.
While eventually the GTVA should be able to outproduce Sol they couldn't at the start of the Great War and they still might not be able to now.
Let's not forget that after the node collapse, the GTVA was left with the bulk of the terran fleet.
They'll have been left with a sizable chunk but the GTA fleet in FS1 never seemed anywhere near as large to me as the GTVA fleet in FS2. And judging from the mothballing of the fleet we see in FS2 I don't think that's really going to help them much. If anything it would have meant that while Sol turned it's attention to building new destroyers the GTVA relaxed because it had the older ones still.
I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking exactly how the GTA was set up.
No idea. Which is what makes it silly to say that certain assumptions about how it is now are valid.
If something can be interpreted two ways and there is no evidence as to which way it actually is I'll keep an open mind. If I have to pick one I'll pick the most likely but in a situation like this I don't have to pick. I can enjoy stories like Inferno which makes the assumptions one way and others like yours which make the assumptions the other way. As long as neither contradict canon and have a solid chain of reasoning for why they feel things are one way I don't see why I should be telling someone that their view of post-Capella events is impossible.
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They'd all be part of a system's military might. Having lots of ships means bugger all if you can't resupply them or replace them when damaged. But the number of systems as a simple number does not matter in the slightest. Having more systems and more resources means bugger all if they aren't exploited. They weren't 40 years ago. That much is obvious from the quote about Sol having the bulk of the industrial base. They still might not be exploited anywhere near as heavily as the Sol is even now.
The fleet we see in FS1 is the GTA fleet after 14 years of war. It's said several times that the war had economically drained the GTA (the powerhouse of which was in Sol). Since the end of the war Sol could have had 40 years of peace. They might be even stronger than they were back when they were the major power of the GTA.
Judging by the fact that the GTVA seems to be doing pretty well and is expanding, I'd say that the resources are exploited.
After all, how much is " a bulk"?
Even if Earth had 9/10 of the manufacturing infrastructure of the whole GTVA in 40 years you can build MILLIONS of mines, power plants, rafineries and whatnot.
Sol has had 40 years of peace... but armies are forged in war. Being stronger hardly? If Sol already handled the bulk of the production for the whole GTVA that means that it has more than enough for it's own needs and there is absolutely no need to expand it's infrastructure - the GTVA on the other had has more than enough room and reasons for expansion.
Not when you consider that the GTA suffered an economic collapse after the end of the Great War. Capella could easily be one of the most powerful systems in the GTVA. Again long established systems couldn't compete with completely new ones like Luyten after the Great War.
I don't recall this being canon...
DS might have picked simply because of it's central location/proximity to Earth. Capitals aren't always the most powerful place in the state after all. DS might simply be the equivalent of Brasilia or Islamabad. It may have been nothing much until it became the Terran Capital. The fact that it wasn't one of the 4 great blocs that eventually formed the Terran part of the GTVA seems to suggest that it wasn't a powerful system.
But there were powerful blocks present. There are colonies that are powerful and developed. Heck, the NTF had enough infrastructure to wage war with the GTVA - and they held 3 systems. Now how much infrastructure and logistics would all the GTVA systems have combined then?
Potential yes, but it takes time to exploit potential. And you have to have history on your side. Africa has loads of potential but they've done **** all with it.
I say again...Germany, Japan...from total ruin to powehouses in 40 years. And the GTVA can build things faster with their more advanced tech.
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Sol has had 40 years of peace... but armies are forged in war.
They've had 40 years of peace to build up their army. Armies can be built in peace time too. They simply need a reason for it. Fear of a Shivan invasion is a reason. The GTVA on the other hand lost a lot of ships in the Shivan invasion and the NTF rebellion before it. Maybe that is compensated for in experience or maybe it isn't. Yet another variable you're no doubt going to tell me definitely has to be in your favour. :rolleyes:
If Sol already handled the bulk of the production for the whole GTVA that means that it has more than enough for it's own needs and there is absolutely no need to expand it's infrastructure - the GTVA on the other had has more than enough room and reasons for expansion.
Assuming that the reason for expansion is government driven. People didn't move out into the Wild West because the government wanted to. They moved out because they could make vast sums of money doing that even though resources in the East weren't tapped out yet. Don't assume the expansion of the GTVA is because they've exploited everything back home.
If I was told that someone had just discovered a jump node to Dubhe and I could move in and start staking a claim to planets just simply by being the first one to settle there I might be tempted to do so.
Not when you consider that the GTA suffered an economic collapse after the end of the Great War. Capella could easily be one of the most powerful systems in the GTVA. Again long established systems couldn't compete with completely new ones like Luyten after the Great War.
I don't recall this being canon...
An ill-fated coup d'etat, orchestrated by the rogue intelligence branch of the GTA, marked the beginning of post-war factional politics. With its economy in ruins and political structures in turmoil, the Galactic Terran Alliance disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs, each with its own agenda. The major entities included the Adhara Coalition, the Antares Federation, the Regulus Syndicate, and the Luyten New Alliance. As these groups consolidated and stabilized, the reconstruction gained momentum, and the resumption of open commerce rekindled the notion of a pan-Terran community.
Notice that it doesn't mention Delta Serpentis as a major power.
But there were powerful blocks present. There are colonies that are powerful and developed. Heck, the NTF had enough infrastructure to wage war with the GTVA - and they held 3 systems. Now how much infrastructure and logistics would all the GTVA systems have combined then?
That's just as much an argument in my favour. If with 3 systems Bosch can hold off the GTVA's 20 or so there can't be much power in those 20 can there? Remember that if Bosch had been serious about Neo-Terra he might have won (assuming he got his saboteurs to blow up the Colossus rather than just sabotaging its beam cannons). If he can do it with 3 systems why can't Sol do it with one much stronger system?
I say again...Germany, Japan...from total ruin to powehouses in 40 years. And the GTVA can build things faster with their more advanced tech.
Both countries you mention were significantly aided by help from the US. The Terran systems of the GTVA received no such help. They faced economic collapse in fact.
In addition both Japan and Germany were settled already. Luyten had nothing. No people. No ships. No resource exploitation. The fact that it was a major power 10 years later just screams that the other major powers weren't anything special either.
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At the end of the day 4 armed soldiers could hold a bottleneck against a battalion as long as the ammo held out. But should the offensive push become to great they would be vastly overwhelmed. Thats how i see sol. Just a small force barricaded well.
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Since there is no FS3...there can be no definitive answer...As ive said before, the answer is what you make it....
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Ah, but why can't we speculate our ideas together?
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Nothing wrong with speculation at all. Gets the ideas flowing I say.
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Well said! Exactly my point!! :D
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On the note of sol having an exclusive resource, who's to say then that sol residents weren't dependant on an external produce for continued existance :) that would be a very cool twist. All dead after a year or so. . .
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Sol has had 40 years of peace... but armies are forged in war.
They've had 40 years of peace to build up their army. Armies can be built in peace time too. They simply need a reason for it. Fear of a Shivan invasion is a reason. The GTVA on the other hand lost a lot of ships in the Shivan invasion and the NTF rebellion before it. Maybe that is compensated for in experience or maybe it isn't. Yet another variable you're no doubt going to tell me definitely has to be in your favour. :rolleyes:
EXPERIENCED army...you can build all the guns you want but the army that had REAL war experience will simply be better. No training can replace that..adn the GTVA seems to be constantly fighting someone. Not to say that Sol doesn't have some internal enemy..but nothing like the shivies.
Assuming that the reason for expansion is government driven. People didn't move out into the Wild West because the government wanted to. They moved out because they could make vast sums of money doing that even though resources in the East weren't tapped out yet. Don't assume the expansion of the GTVA is because they've exploited everything back home.
You don't understand. If you already have more infrastrucutre than you need for all your production needs, you won't be new ones just for kicks. There is no need for it.
An ill-fated coup d'etat, orchestrated by the rogue intelligence branch of the GTA, marked the beginning of post-war factional politics. With its economy in ruins and political structures in turmoil, the Galactic Terran Alliance disintegrated into semi-autonomous regional blocs, each with its own agenda. The major entities included the Adhara Coalition, the Antares Federation, the Regulus Syndicate, and the Luyten New Alliance. As these groups consolidated and stabilized, the reconstruction gained momentum, and the resumption of open commerce rekindled the notion of a pan-Terran community.
Notice that it doesn't mention Delta Serpentis as a major power.
And what this have to do with new colonies being better off then older, established ones? Thats the statement I was questioning, not the collapse into 4 blocks.
That's just as much an argument in my favour. If with 3 systems Bosch can hold off the GTVA's 20 or so there can't be much power in those 20 can there? Remember that if Bosch had been serious about Neo-Terra he might have won (assuming he got his saboteurs to blow up the Colossus rather than just sabotaging its beam cannons). If he can do it with 3 systems why can't Sol do it with one much stronger system?
Not a fair comparison. Those 3 systems were apparently nicely developed and they switched sides...along with a fair number of GTVA ships..in the initial rebellion, a lot of GTVA officers and ships were backstabed and destroyed.
Also the damage was double - the resources and ship become the enemies ships and resources. That's also the reason why it was so effective. And NTF winning? Best it could hope for was a stalemate - but the NTF could never take on the GTVA.
Both countries you mention were significantly aided by help from the US. The Terran systems of the GTVA received no such help. They faced economic collapse in fact.
In addition both Japan and Germany were settled already. Luyten had nothing. No people. No ships. No resource exploitation. The fact that it was a major power 10 years later just screams that the other major powers weren't anything special either.
Economic collapse always happens immediately after the war. Germany and Japan faced it too. they didn't spring back 1-2 years after the war. It took more.
And what you said doesn't scream anything. Lutyen was the leader of a block, but that doesn't mean it's economicly or industrially powerful - but rather politicly.
The capitol often isn't the biggest and most powerfull, remeber?
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You don't understand. If you already have more infrastrucutre than you need for all your production needs, you won't be new ones just for kicks. There is no need for it.
So if the East side of America had gold no one would have bothered moving to the west to look for gold. They'd just say "Well lots of people are getting rich in the East I'm not one of them but there's no point in me moving west"
Never mind that there would be more gold in the west and less people to take it.
Expansion doesn't happen simply because everything is already exploited. Thanks to subspace it's not that much more trouble to mine a metal rich asteroid two jumps away compared with an average one in this system.
And what this have to do with new colonies being better off then older, established ones? Thats the statement I was questioning, not the collapse into 4 blocks.
As I pointed out Delta Serpentis wasn't one of the blocs. Luyten is the centre of a major power. Not DS. Adhara is also likely a new system too for that matter IIRC.
Not a fair comparison. Those 3 systems were apparently nicely developed and they switched sides...along with a fair number of GTVA ships..in the initial rebellion, a lot of GTVA officers and ships were backstabed and destroyed.
Also the damage was double - the resources and ship become the enemies ships and resources. That's also the reason why it was so effective. And NTF winning? Best it could hope for was a stalemate - but the NTF could never take on the GTVA.
The NTF's goal was independence. A stalemate is a victory for them. (Don't even ****ing start that it wasn't. That's what they thought they were fighting for even if Bosch had other ideas).
As for it not being fair, Sol is already held by their forces. They too were nicely developed and unlike the NTF who have to fight a war on two or three fronts there is only one way into Sol.
Economic collapse always happens immediately after the war. Germany and Japan faced it too. they didn't spring back 1-2 years after the war. It took more.
Who are you telling this to? You're the one who was arguing in favour of quick recovery for the GTVA systems. :p So if even with outside help Germany and Japan faced economic collapse according to your own arguments and took time to recover then that makes it even more unlikely that the GTA systems recovered quite as quickly as you claim.
And what you said doesn't scream anything. Lutyen was the leader of a block, but that doesn't mean it's economicly or industrially powerful - but rather politicly.
The capitol often isn't the biggest and most powerfull, remeber?
Fine but there is usually a good reason why you do that. Delta Serpentis has historical reasons for picking it as well as being close to Beta Aquilae which is the GTVA headquarters.
Which other systems were in the Luyten New Alliance? Wolf 359 and Barnard's were discovered even later and as such are unlikely to be any more powerful. Laramis wasn't explored at the start of the Great War either. You have to go to Ross 128 and Delta Serpentis itself before you find systems which were even inhabited during the Great War and then the question becomes "Why build your new capital out in the middle of nowhere?"
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The only reason for expansion for people is because there is actually something out there for a living - or should I say to live on.
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So if the East side of America had gold no one would have bothered moving to the west to look for gold. They'd just say "Well lots of people are getting rich in the East I'm not one of them but there's no point in me moving west"
Never mind that there would be more gold in the west and less people to take it.
Expansion doesn't happen simply because everything is already exploited. Thanks to subspace it's not that much more trouble to mine a metal rich asteroid two jumps away compared with an average one in this system.
If you already happen to have more than enough gold mines, oil rigs, and mines and factories of all types you won't be building new ones. There has to be a NEED for something. Otherwise it's not really profitable.
And it's a safe bet ractors and jump drives are the most expensive things on a fighter/freighter. Mining on a planet, like Earth, is surely cheaper than from asteroids. You won't do it unless you realyl need those resources or the resources are unique.
Who are you telling this to? You're the one who was arguing in favour of quick recovery for the GTVA systems. :p So if even with outside help Germany and Japan faced economic collapse according to your own arguments and took time to recover then that makes it even more unlikely that the GTA systems recovered quite as quickly as you claim.
Do you have trouble reading? I said that a quick recovery is possible, but it doesn't happen in 2 years.. the first few years are allways troublesome..so speaking of a economic collapse of the GTA - it's nothing uncommon, and it hasn't been stated how long it lasted or anything.
Which other systems were in the Luyten New Alliance? Wolf 359 and Barnard's were discovered even later and as such are unlikely to be any more powerful. Laramis wasn't explored at the start of the Great War either. You have to go to Ross 128 and Delta Serpentis itself before you find systems which were even inhabited during the Great War and then the question becomes "Why build your new capital out in the middle of nowhere?"
Even 4 of the smallest and most pitifull states on Earth can form a block. Does that mean they are powerfull? All we know is that 4 regional blocks were formed. We have NO IDEA how powerfull they were - neither industrialy, military or politicly.
Oh - as I said before, a rebellion and a war can't be compared in therms of military might. +4 systems and +4 fleet for the rebelion means -4 systems and -4 fleets for the GTVA. And don't forget the turncoats, saboteurs and surprise attack that weakened the GTVA quite extensivly at the begining of the rebelion.
Sol would have no such luck.
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Experience vs numbers and tech. Vietnam anyone?
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Well if we think about the term 'Shivan influence' as wide as possible, don't you think that Terran ships had Shivan influence back in the Great war? I mean, they did capture a Dragon and study it. They reverse-engineered it. They monitored Shivan fighters and learnt how to enable inter-system jumps for fighters. So in this case we shouldn't state that 'new' craft have some Shivan in them, when probably the originall Hercules had 'some Shivan' in it. As well as some older weapons. Not to mention sensors, shields and such. Right?
The Herc and Ursa were already under development during the Great War. It's possible that some modifications have been made (shielding for sure, altough the GTA has been experimenting with them before).
One thing's for sure - the newer fighters have much more then the old ones.
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Bomber's don't though.
Ursa and Sehkmet kick the crap out of anything else.
If you already happen to have more than enough gold mines, oil rigs, and mines and factories of all types you won't be building new ones. There has to be a NEED for something. Otherwise it's not really profitable.
There has to be a need. But if it's more profitable to mine a new system than the already settled ones then the new systems are what will get mined. Expansion into new systems means little in terms of how heavily exploited a system is. It's simply a measure of how cheap it is to exploit new systems.
Mining on a planet, like Earth, is surely cheaper than from asteroids. You won't do it unless you realyl need those resources or the resources are unique.
Pretty much every sci-fi universe disagrees with you. So does real life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteroid_mining
And you're still ignoring the fact that many people move to colonies just to look for a new life.
Do you have trouble reading? I said that a quick recovery is possible, but it doesn't happen in 2 years.. the first few years are allways troublesome..so speaking of a economic collapse of the GTA - it's nothing uncommon, and it hasn't been stated how long it lasted or anything.
Exactly. It might have lasted long enough to keep the GTVA weaker than Sol.
Even 4 of the smallest and most pitifull states on Earth can form a block. Does that mean they are powerfull? All we know is that 4 regional blocks were formed. We have NO IDEA how powerfull they were - neither industrialy, military or politicly.
But if the Luyten New Alliance and Adhara Coalition are weak it doesn't bode well for your claims that the GTVA is very strong does it? Especially since the game says that they were "major entities."
Oh - as I said before, a rebellion and a war can't be compared in therms of military might. +4 systems and +4 fleet for the rebelion means -4 systems and -4 fleets for the GTVA. And don't forget the turncoats, saboteurs and surprise attack that weakened the GTVA quite extensivly at the begining of the rebelion.
Sol would have no such luck.
Why? The NTF proved there there were tonnes of people who did want "a utopia that would restore the grandeur of the lost world." Sol would get all kinds of traitors and turncoats, both from the lost generation who signed up to fight for Bosch and from those old enough to remember the GTA under Sol and prefer it that way.
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And you think a lot of people from Sol wouldn't become turncoats or refuse to fight against their brothers, or even fight for them? :lol:
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Profitwise its more lucrative for a company to stake a claim to a ripe system before anyone else.
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Except there are no systems for Sol to claim..node being closed and all. But I guess there's enough asteroids to mine.
Methinks the GTVA is more than powerfull enough to take on Sol. Why?
Well, apparently, even tough they had a economic collapse, they not only managed to overcome it rather quickly (32 years), but have also expanded in that time, made new colonies (apparenlty, good, powerfull colonies), made experimantal super ships (Hades, Colossuss), while upgrading and retrofiting all existing ships, designing and bulding new ones (Hecate, Deimos, Sobek, Aeolus, Mentu) up to the point where they were completely replacing old ships with new ones (The Hattie) and ended up with a military that dwarfed that of the GTVA and PVN...
All that in 32 years. Seems to me the colonies are more than capable of pulling their own weight. :rolleyes:
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Bit of a spurious argument considering we don't know what new classes Sol would have built.
No one is saying the GTVA hasn't recovered from the Great War Trashman. I think you're arguing with a strawman there. I'm simply saying that although the GTVA might be powerful, without the Vasudans it might not be as powerful as Earth.
And you think a lot of people from Sol wouldn't become turncoats or refuse to fight against their brothers, or even fight for them? :lol:
I didn't say that. I was only shooting holes in your nonsense about not having traitors in the GTVA.
Likely both sides would have traitors. I suspect the GTVA would have more though for the reasons I mentioned.
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I meant for GTVA systems. That aside, the sol-Ds node is a bottleneck assuming that gta forces have roving patrols any incursions via said node would be me with bulk sol forces . Anyone who has seen wing commander movie knows what that would look like.
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Sol has become the Holy Grail...pretty much...I agree that there will be many defectors in a war. The lost Generation, those GW veterens still alive (Hey, for all we know. Humans could live till about 150 in FS universe and special medtech could give people greater longevity, making an 80 year old similar in health and fitness to 30 year old)...Also, those unhappy with the GTVA...and possibly young hotshots who want to see the Legendary blue planet...
By the time a gate to Sol is constructed...Sol will have been isolated for nearly a centuary
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You're making an awfully big assumption about the time it will take to build that gate. It might be a smaller project than the Colossus.
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I'd say 5-10 years...tops.
And we don't know how the Earthlings feel towards the GTVA. It's quite possible they look at the GTVA as a holy grail :P
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Possible. It's possible they wouldn't.
That's why I keep saying it's silly to start saying that perfectly reasonable things are impossible just because you've stacked up all the assumptions against them.
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I'd say the Knossos would take 10 years to open up a portal (from the current state, including experiments &c) and 15 years after to have it 100% stable. No doubt that it won't work at first... it's only experimental at that phase. I'd also think that, with opening a node to Sol, they'd first construct a Terran Knossos and make it work on another collapsed node. Once they confirm it working, they'll have tweaked the design enough to build a Sol-DS node.
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Experience vs numbers and tech. Vietnam anyone?
You forgot political BS. That's what lost the war WHO THE FREAKING HECK FIGHTS A WAR WHERE YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED INTO THE ENEMIES' TERRITORY??? OH... nvm. And breaking your promises to allies... We had handed that war over to S. Vietnam, they were doing OK, perhaps would have been a Korea type of stalemate, but then we stopped supplying them with parts and ammo. Woops. Meh... whats a few tens of thousands of S. Vietnamese blood on your hands... go freaking Congwess.
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well i do not agree with the asumption that it will take 15 years to open the Sol node. I mean the GTVA understanding and tech of subspace may be limited when compared to the shivans but they are by no means retarted . Also i believe that some scientist in FS2 said that they have enough data colected for the GTVA to start construction of their own Knossos portal. Sure there will be costs involved but hell when you think aboyut it reopening the node to sol may be the only thing that will keep the GTVA from falling appart under the presures of the refugeez and other problems. Since we all know even if they are not welcomed the fact that they have a way to go home would boost terran morale and economy. Since everyone would be eager to return home.
With all of this said i believe the GTVA will concentrate on opening the Sol node first and rebuilding theyr fleets. With the Sol opening taking precedence.
I mean tehre are no major design changes to be made since its basicly s maller version of the knossos sure there will be some minor details but most of the work researh the basic tech is already there.
Perhaps a max of 10 years to open the node . thats my take on it!
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Experience vs numbers and tech. Vietnam anyone?
Actually, the only reason the US "lost" that war was because of the lack of national support. In actuality, the US won pretty much every major engagement. IIRC the US lost ~58,000 men and the vietnamese lost ~ a million.
And another thing, how would this be excperience vs numbers and tech. I'm assuming the GTVA is the side with the numbers on it. There is no garuntee that they have technological superiority. And I'd be willing to bet the GTVA had more Great War vets and such than Sol alone.
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I'd actually say that the GTVA tech >> Earth tech in any case
1. GTVA has more scientists of both races. Especially vasudans.
2. GTVA has scans of the Lucifer, the Sath, has captured shivan fighters and it's unknown what else it has (pieces from the Saths debris?)
Sol has some Lucifer debris so I'm sure they'll come up with some pretty interesting techs too. They would be different probably, but in the grand scheme of things GTVA would have the obvious advantage.
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For portal completion time, story sources mention 5 - 15 years. Ultimately it's just a bunch of speculation. There is no solid completion schedule given in canon, just guesses.
The thing that concerns me about the current force levels of the GTVA is the fact that they'd invested so much in their super battlewagon, the Colossus. There is a tendency among people, especially politicians to overestimate the ability of "ultimate weapons" and neglect the rest of their military assets. It is my feeling that this may have been the attitude prevalent in GTVA leadership up until the time of the destruction of the Colossus.
I personally feel that had not so many eggs been placed in the Colossus basket that the resources and personell might have been put to good use in other areas. The Shivans would possibly have faced a much stronger regular fleet that what they did. The Sathanas juggernaut class, while undeniably powerful, proved somewhat vulnerable to coordinated bomber and capitol ship strikes. A more numerous GTVA standard capitol ship fleet might have been able to exploit this with better results.
I personally think that had more of the corvette and destroyer classes been available, the Sathanas fleet may not have rolled over the GTVA quite so easily, although to what extent is arguable. I don't think a successful blockade of the Gamma Draconis - Capella node would be impossible, at least in the short term while the system was evacuated and the meson ships were prepared.
This point does however make sense. It also gives a good indication that the GTVA's conventional unit strength was likely given lower priority, even downsized from Great War levels. This is a very common attitude amongst politicians once the immediate need for large well trained and equipped military passes. Almost immediatly after the present danger has passed they are busy snipping and paring away at their military, no matter what possible threat may be on the horizon. It is this which leads me to belive that the GTVA might not be as powerful in comparison to Sol as the more willfully stubborn forumites would like to assume.
Another part of the equation is the home system is totally cut off from the colonies. No traffic, no communication. They have no idea if the Shivans are no longer a threat or if they are waiting for the reestablishment of the jump node to finish off the Terran species they've possibly made extinct in the rest of the colonies.
It's quite logical to suppose that the Sol system would have gone into a steady plan of warship construction and development that would have lasted well beyond the Great War and likely continued up until the reopening of the subspace node. That the Terran fleet is possibly more numerous and advanced than anything the GTVA has in its inventory, is not that big a stretch of the imagination.
Also, Sol had full access to all Shivan and Vasudan research before the node collapsed. I doubt that quantity obtained by the GTVA since is any big change.
Depending on a lot of factors, the home system could easily become hostile to the GTVA. An easy to envision scenario would have the GTVA threaten to close the Knossos portal or restrict its use should Sol refuse to agree to some item of petty import to the GTVA. I have no doubt that the Sol system would take measures to prevent that from happening very quickly. A tense situation that could quite easily spill over into open hostilities.
@Alpha : Don't take this the wrong way, but I figured out why your spelling and grammar is so terrible. You just bounce around all over the place like the bunny in your sig, as fast as you can.
I'm going to give you some friendly advice here. When you are trying to make a point in a debate you need to take care with your words. He who gets his thoughts down the fastest is not going to be he who conveys his ideas if they are unreadable. If you have something you want to say, and you believe your opinion is worth giving, you need to take the time to look after your spelling and grammar. That is, at least if you want to have your opinion respected enough to be read. Most folks will not make the effort to read more than a sentence or two of your replies because they are very difficult to translate into English. If something is worth saying, take the time to say it right.
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I'd actually say that the GTVA tech >> Earth tech in any case
1. GTVA has more scientists of both races. Especially vasudans.
2. GTVA has scans of the Lucifer, the Sath, has captured shivan fighters and it's unknown what else it has (pieces from the Saths debris?)
Sol has some Lucifer debris so I'm sure they'll come up with some pretty interesting techs too. They would be different probably, but in the grand scheme of things GTVA would have the obvious advantage.
If Sol was the economic, cultural and political capital of the GTA it was likely the academic capital too. It could be that most of the universities were on Vasuda Prime and Earth. So it could be that the smartest scientists were in Sol.
And thats before we get onto population. You still haven't proved that Sol doesn't have a population larger than the rest of the old GTA. It's quite possible it did. Given the number of casualties on Vasuda Prime it could be that Sol has larger population than the entire GTVA. It would take 5 systems the size of Capella to equal the current population of China alone.
So less of the assumptions that the GTVA has more scientists. Yet again there isn't the data to say this at all.
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Given the rate of population growth, the available space and number of colonies, it's more likely the population of the colonies is greater than Sol
After all, the habitat in Sol is limited, the 20+ planets have more than enough room.
Let's also not forget that the population on Earth has increased from less than a billion to more than 6 billion in less than 100 years.
We also know that Sol had research outposts all over the GTA, the techroom confirms that. Thus, there were more than enough scientists spread around and colonies would also have schools and universities, they won't be confined to Earth.
Last, but not least - isn't the USA the military and economicly most powerul nation in the world? Cut it off them the rest of the world - who will be hit worse by that cut - the US or the rest of the world? The US f'course. Being the biggest means you also export and outsource the most, and then you're also affected the most by a collapse like that.
It's quite logical to suppose that the Sol system would have gone into a steady plan of warship construction and development that would have lasted well beyond the Great War and likely continued up until the reopening of the subspace node. That the Terran fleet is possibly more numerous and advanced than anything the GTVA has in its inventory, is not that big a stretch of the imagination.
GTVA has acess to Ancient ruins, the Knossos, scans and parts of numerous shivan vessels of which many are the newest and latest designs. That is a BIG bonus in terms of tech development for them.
And 20+ systems have the abilty to support a much bigger war machine, not to mention that the Capella BBQ might push the GTVA into a large military production more than any Lucy would. 80 Saths parading recently are a reason for fear - 1 Lucy parading 40 years ago really isn't.
After all, let's say Sol had been biulding up it's military. After 30 years of peace and no shivies in sight, do you really think they will keep up the pace?
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Let's put it this way. The GTI built the Hades in secret from the rest of the government in a few months. The GTVA took 20 years to build the Colossus.
You still want to tell me the GTVA recovered from reconstruction to a degree greatly surpassing their former power?
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I'll try and get through these arguments logically, however Trash, either you have poor reading comprehension skills, or you are doing nothing more than picking points and attempting to refute them with the flimsiest of assumptions. I'm not trying to insult you, but I'd like to see you put down counter-arguments that at least show you have done more than skim a post. Your main responses to everything said so far are all based on "The GTVA is BIGGER and BETTER than Sol", without much to really support this premise. Just a repetition of the same thing slightly rephrased. You can do better.
Now, down to the important stuff:
Given the rate of population growth, the available space and number of colonies, it's more likely the population of the colonies is greater than Sol
After all, the habitat in Sol is limited, the 20+ planets have more than enough room.
Let's also not forget that the population on Earth has increased from less than a billion to more than 6 billion in less than 100 years.
You are ignoring the likelihood that Sol is the oldest center of human settlement. There are likely numerous extraterrestrial colonies within Sol, such as Mars, Luna, Ceres, perhaps moons of other planets. There may even be terraforming which has rendered Venus a viable habitat. This is to say nothing of the likelihood of numerous installations within the solar system not based on existing solar bodies. Much of this possible colonization probably was well established before the discovery of subspace. This points to the likelihood that the population of Sol would be signifigantly larger than that of the GTVA before the node was closed., Since humans like to reproduce, this would likely have remained a constant factor.
The CURRENT population of Terra alone is enormous, which you've chosen to ignore. Yes, the population increased enormously in 100 years. A century is signifigantly longer than a mere three to four decades, which is all the GTVA would have in our Knossos reopening scenario to increase their populace.
We also know that Sol had research outposts all over the GTA, the techroom confirms that. Thus, there were more than enough scientists spread around and colonies would also have schools and universities, they won't be confined to Earth.
Nobody has denied this, however the backstory also confirms that the lion's share of the R&D and production industry is located in Sol itself. Not all certainly, but a hell of a lot of it. Sol would easily have plenty of technical ability to catch and probably outstrip the GTVA's production and research establishment.
GTVA has acess to Ancient ruins, the Knossos, scans and parts of numerous shivan vessels of which many are the newest and latest designs. That is a BIG bonus in terms of tech development for them.
And 20+ systems have the abilty to support a much bigger war machine, not to mention that the Capella BBQ might push the GTVA into a large military production more than any Lucy would. 80 Saths parading recently are a reason for fear - 1 Lucy parading 40 years ago really isn't.
Some access yes, of which all collected data from any discoveries would have been passed on to Terra up to the point of the node collapse. Yes, they would not have had access to the latest appearing Shivan ships, nor the Knossos. I do not believe it to be that big an advantage for the GTVA. For the most part GTVA tech was equivalent to their Shivan counterparts in the second incurision. In fact, in many ways it was superior. The newer Shivan units seemed like fairly minor variations of their older designs. The beam cannon was the greatest achievement for the GTVA, and it was matched up by the Shivans. It is unlikely that the engineers in Sol would not have come up with this tech, not to mention possibly surpass the level of the GTVA.
You are again insisting that the rest of the GTVA had a larger population than Sol. In fact the reverse is more likely from the reasons I've stated.
80 Sathanas class juggernauts would be a cause of concern, however they seem to have used the destruction of Capella as a means of boosting their ability to travel. They did not attack the rest of the GTVA - only the one star system. Rather than going into a frenzied military build up, the reverse is more likely: most avaricious politicians want the military budget for their own pet projects and social plans with nothing more at heart than the desire to keep their constituents happy, thus ensuring their continued share of the public trough. They are very fast to purport the belief that the enemy has gone away and public safety is assured.
The Colossus was intended to take on the Lucifer class destroyer by hopefully mounting weaponry strong enough to pierce its shields, on a platform strong enough to withstand the beating it would likely suffer in such a slugfest. It was not intended to take on its opposite number in a duel. The Colossus was not really suited for this role, thus its destruction in battle with a Sathanas without any supporting units for backup. Both of these ship types represented a total brute force approach to ship design. There is little finesse involved in their designs. Just the 'bigger is better' approach.
The Lucifer on the other hand seems to be based on the idea that the best defense is in itself a terrific offense. You don't need more than a few really powerful weapons on a vessel that cannot be harmed by enemy fire. Yes, this type of ship is indeed a serious concern.
After all, let's say Sol had been biulding up it's military. After 30 years of peace and no shivies in sight, do you really think they will keep up the pace?
I can't say for sure about the pace of their buildup, however the knowledge that your home is safe only so long as it remains isolated would be a continuing incentive to build up your defenses with the best you can possibly produce. Not neccesarily at a fever pitch, but at least a continuous effort. A political entity that has at least the illusion of its continued safety does not have that incentive.
Last, but not least - isn't the USA the military and economicly most powerul nation in the world? Cut it off them the rest of the world - who will be hit worse by that cut - the US or the rest of the world? The US f'course. Being the biggest means you also export and outsource the most, and then you're also affected the most by a collapse like that.
In the short term, yes, however it does not usually take an enormous ammount of time for humans to adapt to their situation and get things up and running again. In your example you have a prosperous country with a large, well educated population, and a great deal of natural resources at its disposal. After a decade or so it would recover and become its own self contained 'world'. Also, the US has an enormous influence on the rest of the world. I have little doubt that its sudden removal from the world scene would cause an awful lot of economic issues, not to mention military and political. The rest of the world also would survive, but they would not be very happy for a signifigant ammount of time.
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Sol had access to the Lucifer debris, they may have been able to develop capship shields. :drevil:
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Not to mention more intact Shivan fighters and weapons than the GTVA... plus possibly hundreds of Shivans, live and dead, to examine and experiment on. I would say that it's very likely they got enough debris from the planet-razing beam to construct their own. Even untested, a weapon of this magnitude would give Sol a large bartering chip against the GTVA.
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I find it a little difficult to assume that Sol recovered much at all from the Lucifer's wreckage. It is possible, and even probable that something was recovered as we go by the final FS1 cutscene as canon. I wouldn't automatically assume that anything useful was recovered beyond scrap metal. This is a grey area that is open to speculation and interpretation. I really wouldn't care to make any assumptions on this topic, although it does make for fun speculation.
It's a safer bet that Sol had access to anything gathered by the GTA and PVN right up to the node collapse, which is likely a very large ammount indeed.
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I don't think so. They could get the flux cannons...look
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*sniped rant*
Yeah..poor me. Excuse me for not wasting two hours writing a long-winded response to demostrate my "intelectual superiority". Yes, I read fast and I type fast, but my poitns stil lstand. Alltough you might be the one needing glasses.
You are ignoring the likelihood that Sol is the oldest center of human settlement. There are likely numerous extraterrestrial colonies within Sol, such as Mars, Luna, Ceres, perhaps moons of other planets. There may even be terraforming which has rendered Venus a viable habitat. This is to say nothing of the likelihood of numerous installations within the solar system not based on existing solar bodies. Much of this possible colonization probably was well established before the discovery of subspace. This points to the likelihood that the population of Sol would be signifigantly larger than that of the GTVA before the node was closed., Since humans like to reproduce, this would likely have remained a constant factor.
The CURRENT population of Terra alone is enormous, which you've chosen to ignore. Yes, the population increased enormously in 100 years. A century is signifigantly longer than a mere three to four decades, which is all the GTVA would have in our Knossos reopening scenario to increase their populace.
I'm not ignoring anything. Earth has limited space. There are very few planetary bodies in Sol that would be adequate for large colonization. Terraforming is a colossal project, that even by most optimistic NASA forcasts would take hunderds of years. Lunar colonies would be very limited as they would require a lot of work to suport even a smaller population. sol would have some form of population control going - heck we have it going even now!
On the other hand, you got large terrestrial planets in the GTVA, and a few of them are bound to be up to our human standard (water, atmosphere, vegetation). No barriers to breeding freely there. Just a large expense and many possibilities.
Last but not least - migration. Just how many people left Earth to live on some colonies? Probably billions.
All in all, chances are the GTVA has a far greater population than Earth.
Nobody has denied this, however the backstory also confirms that the lion's share of the R&D and production industry is located in Sol itself. Not all certainly, but a hell of a lot of it. Sol would easily have plenty of technical ability to catch and probably outstrip the GTVA's production and research establishment.
How much is a bulk? Labs are easily enough constructed - heck the GTVA could have more than Sol in a year if they focused on that. So that tells you nothing.
And I've seen NOTHING in the backstory or anything that confirms the bulk of the research was done on Earth. All discoveries I remember from FS1 were done somewhere else.
Some access yes, of which all collected data from any discoveries would have been passed on to Terra up to the point of the node collapse. Yes, they would not have had access to the latest appearing Shivan ships, nor the Knossos. I do not believe it to be that big an advantage for the GTVA. For the most part GTVA tech was equivalent to their Shivan counterparts in the second incurision. In fact, in many ways it was superior. The newer Shivan units seemed like fairly minor variations of their older designs. The beam cannon was the greatest achievement for the GTVA, and it was matched up by the Shivans. It is unlikely that the engineers in Sol would not have come up with this tech, not to mention possibly surpass the level of the GTVA.
Oh? And you think nothing of interest was found in in the last 30 years from the ancient ruins? Why the heck are all finding classified then?
And the game makes it clear the Mara is the most advanced shivan fighter yet encountered - more advanced than the Dragon. Scans of the Sath? If a Lucy scan = beam, the Sath scan can only be a good thing.
Oh, one last note. Shivan flux Cannon << BGreen. If you recall FS1 it too 4-5 full salvos(2 beams) for the Lucy to kill the Galatea. Not to say the Earthling can't improve on that quite a bit.
the posibiltiy always exist that one side or another will have a technologal/scientific revolution, by chance, fluke or dilligent research, or just trough the works of a super-genius...but hte side with more advantages is more likely to have such a breaktrough. That side is the GTVA.
80 Sathanas class juggernauts would be a cause of concern, however they seem to have used the destruction of Capella as a means of boosting their ability to travel. They did not attack the rest of the GTVA - only the one star system. Rather than going into a frenzied military build up, the reverse is more likely: most avaricious politicians want the military budget for their own pet projects and social plans with nothing more at heart than the desire to keep their constituents happy, thus ensuring their continued share of the public trough. They are very fast to purport the belief that the enemy has gone away and public safety is assured.
What the shivans did is anyones guess. What they might have done had the GTVA not collapsed the node is also anyones guess, but one this is for sure - if they decided to press on, they would trample the GTVA more than a Lucy ever could.
In the short term, yes, however it does not usually take an enormous ammount of time for humans to adapt to their situation and get things up and running again. In your example you have a prosperous country with a large, well educated population, and a great deal of natural resources at its disposal. After a decade or so it would recover and become its own self contained 'world'. Also, the US has an enormous influence on the rest of the world. I have little doubt that its sudden removal from the world scene would cause an awful lot of economic issues, not to mention military and political. The rest of the world also would survive, but they would not be very happy for a signifigant ammount of time.
Actualyl, to be frank, methinks most of the world would be VERY happy and it would fare far better. You see, you got 190+ countres, each can trade with one another if hte US goes away. Us on the other hand can't trade with any one of them if it's cut off.
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Personally I think Sol just nuked itself into oblivion. But this is a cool discussion. Carry on.
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Alltough you might be the one needing glasses.
I usually don't agree with pointing out typos for ridicule but that's ****ing hilarious. :lol:
I'm not ignoring anything. Earth has limited space. There are very few planetary bodies in Sol that would be adequate for large colonization. Terraforming is a colossal project, that even by most optimistic NASA forcasts would take hunderds of years. Lunar colonies would be very limited as they would require a lot of work to suport even a smaller population. sol would have some form of population control going - heck we have it going even now!
On the other hand, you got large terrestrial planets in the GTVA, and a few of them are bound to be up to our human standard (water, atmosphere, vegetation). No barriers to breeding freely there. Just a large expense and many possibilities.
Last but not least - migration. Just how many people left Earth to live on some colonies? Probably billions.
Didn't you earlier try to make the claim that space flight was expensive in order to justify your claims about mining? But now it's cheap enough that billions of people can leave Sol to live in the colonies?
And why would the planets the GTVA colonised not necessarily have needed terraforming before they were settled? Again you're assuming human habitable planets are commonplace. They might not be. The GTVA might have terraformed several of their major planets. Actually the whole thing is rather funny cause last week you were arguing that the double stars that in the FS universe couldn't even have planets that were habitable cause they'd fall out of orbit into their star.
Labs are easily enough constructed - heck the GTVA could have more than Sol in a year if they focused on that.
Not if Sol focused on it too.
Two can play at that game. :p
Oh? And you think nothing of interest was found in in the last 30 years from the ancient ruins? Why the heck are all finding classified then?
Cause the GTVA classify everything. The incident with Bosch and the Iceni's discovery. The mara is classified even though the player flies one of the bloody things. What the admirals have for breakfast is probably classified too. The game never refers to them finding anything from the ancients apart from subspace tracking.
In fact there is nothing to point to the ancients being any more developed than the Terrans and Vasudans except in their understanding of subspace.
Actualyl, to be frank, methinks most of the world would be VERY happy and it would fare far better. You see, you got 190+ countres, each can trade with one another if hte US goes away. Us on the other hand can't trade with any one of them if it's cut off.
Except that the US doesn't have the bulk of the world's infrastructure. So it's not exactly a valid comparison. If it did then yes the rest of the world would suffer more.
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In the short term, yes, however it does not usually take an enormous ammount of time for humans to adapt to their situation and get things up and running again. In your example you have a prosperous country with a large, well educated population, and a great deal of natural resources at its disposal. After a decade or so it would recover and become its own self contained 'world'. Also, the US has an enormous influence on the rest of the world. I have little doubt that its sudden removal from the world scene would cause an awful lot of economic issues, not to mention military and political. The rest of the world also would survive, but they would not be very happy for a signifigant ammount of time.
Actualyl, to be frank, methinks most of the world would be VERY happy and it would fare far better. You see, you got 190+ countres, each can trade with one another if hte US goes away. Us on the other hand can't trade with any one of them if it's cut off.
Are you seriously suggesting that the world would be better off without trade with the US? That does beg the question of why countries bother to trade with the US in the first place.
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Didn't you earlier try to make the claim that space flight was expensive in order to justify your claims about mining? But now it's cheap enough that billions of people can leave Sol to live in the colonies?
And why would the planets the GTVA colonised not necessarily have needed terraforming before they were settled? Again you're assuming human habitable planets are commonplace. They might not be. The GTVA might have terraformed several of their major planets. Actually the whole thing is rather funny cause last week you were arguing that the double stars that in the FS universe couldn't even have planets that were habitable cause they'd fall out of orbit into their star.
I said it might be that it's expensive. I'm giving possibilities, not absolutes. Nothing conflicting there.
I'm also not assuming human habitable planets are commonplace, but the GTVA is big, there's bound to be one or two that would look as good as Earth.
that said - double stars? Which systems? I don't recall seeing double stars in no mission in GTVA territory..
Labs are easily enough constructed - heck the GTVA could have more than Sol in a year if they focused on that.
Not if Sol focused on it too.
Two can play at that game. :p
And again, there's a limit. It's not a problem for either the GTVA or Sol to build labs. It's staffing them. You have a limit to how many people are educated enough and willing. Unless you plan to force your populace to become scientists at gunpoint. But who's gonna do all the other things then?
Except that the US doesn't have the bulk of the world's infrastructure. So it's not exactly a valid comparison. If it did then yes the rest of the world would suffer more.
Neither does Sol. GTVA systems seemed to be doing just fine with their infrastructure to me.
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Never argue with me. I will drag you down to my level and then beat you with experience.
I thought that was a joke. After this:
Yeah..poor me. Excuse me for not wasting two hours writing a long-winded response to demostrate my "intelectual superiority". Yes, I read fast and I type fast, but my poitns stil lstand. Alltough you might be the one needing glasses.
I see it is your way of life.
Pardon me for asking you to try to come up with more sensible arguments. At least I took the time to actually read your posts and write a coherent reply to them. I should have understood your limitations after you kept repeating yourself. I won't bother in future.
Anyhow, there has been plenty of solid thought that Sol could easily be equal or better to the GTVA in terms of population, industry, and military strength. There are mostly variations on the GTVA is bigger and better than Sol theory against the idea. Ultimately however, as nothing is written in stone (canon) to clarify the subject except in tiny bits here and there, the subject is up to the perception of the writer of any campaign or story on the subject.
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You know, I wonder what kind of ship designs the Humans would have. I would imagine they would keep to the blocky designs from the old GTA days. As for beam weaponry, we could take a leap and even say that they never managed to create beam weaponry. What if they decided to improve heavily on their blob turrets. Turn them into anti-capital ship weapons, imagine something like 20 Avenger Mk.2 cannons firing. I could see Flak cannons developed and since they are not as relied on beam weaponry, their tactics could involve making a huge screen of flak fire (BGS anyone?). This would mean that Sol ships are designed for closer range combat but are much less vulnerable to strategic strikes. Loads of decent blob turrets and maybe even capital ship shielding. As for fighters, I could see designs such as the Apollo Mk. 2 or a new variation of the Herc. Sol is pretty much a cradle of ideas for us to speculate on.
Since Sol holds most of the industrial might of the former GTA, I would imagine they would be building giant blocky ships. Let's say, 5 km long Orions-like destroyers. Something like 2-3 of those as the capital ship of the 2-3 major fleets. Each fleet could be divided into 3 sections, the command group and two battle groups.
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Personally I think Sol just nuked itself into oblivion.
That doesn't really fit MT, eh? Come on Snail drop some subtle hints about the Terran Alliance.
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And again, there's a limit. It's not a problem for either the GTVA or Sol to build labs. It's staffing them. You have a limit to how many people are educated enough and willing. Unless you plan to force your populace to become scientists at gunpoint. But who's gonna do all the other things then?
And now we're back to your completely unproven assertion that the GTVA has many more people than Sol. :rolleyes:
You still haven't proved it. Arguments based on it are worthless.
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250 million people is considered "Highly populated." IMO it's safe to assume the GTVA does not have TOO many people.
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Good point. It does say in A Flaming Sword that Capella is heavily populated.
A small task force will oversee the demolition of the Knossos while the bulk of the allied fleet blockades the jump node leading to the densely-populated Capella system.
Oh and while I'm at it.
A situation is developing near the inhabited planet of Cygnus Prime. We have over 100,000 Vasudan refugees fleeing their colonies in transports. Allied ships are rescuing the Vasudans as quickly as possible, though the logistics of this operation leave many refugees still vulnerable to rebel attack.
If the Vasudans can form colonies on Cygnis prime and still have only 100,000 people there it's probably not that heavily populated either. Not by Vasudans at least.
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I see it is your way of life.
Pardon me for asking you to try to come up with more sensible arguments. At least I took the time to actually read your posts and write a coherent reply to them. I should have understood your limitations after you kept repeating yourself. I won't bother in future.
Anyhow, there has been plenty of solid thought that Sol could easily be equal or better to the GTVA in terms of population, industry, and military strength. There are mostly variations on the GTVA is bigger and better than Sol theory against the idea. Ultimately however, as nothing is written in stone (canon) to clarify the subject except in tiny bits here and there, the subject is up to the perception of the writer of any campaign or story on the subject.
Down to charachter assasination again. If YOU bothered to read you'd see that Ireplies to each of your points.
But in one you are right. The canon leaves so much wiggle room that any scenario is more or less possible. Sol could have become a powerhouse while hte GTVA might have collapsed after Capella..Or vice-versa.
That's what's partially fun about threads like this - we throw ideas around to test how good they are...If anything else, this thread might come in handy for some people planning their own campaign that includes Sol.. since many points have already been discussed here.
That said, the only thing I have really been claiming all this time is that the probability of all of these outcomes are not the same, alltough when calculating that you can always say it's also partially subjective.
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@Hellbender : Let's keep the personal attacks out of it. While I disagree with pretty much 90% of the assertions Trashman has made on this thread I don't think anything is gained by insulting him.
But in one you are right. The canon leaves so much wiggle room that any scenario is more or less possible. Sol could have become a powerhouse while hte GTVA might have collapsed after Capella..Or vice-versa.
That's what's partially fun about threads like this - we throw ideas around to test how good they are...If anything else, this thread might come in handy for some people planning their own campaign that includes Sol.. since many points have already been discussed here.
That said, the only thing I have really been claiming all this time is that the probability of all of these outcomes are not the same, alltough when calculating that you can always say it's also partially subjective.
If that's what you've been doing you really need to tell your earlier posts.
Sol fighting against the GTVA? That would be not only terribly stupid but also suicidal.
Realisticly, Sol has no real chance in a war, it's simply outclassed in manpower, industry and versatility.
Doesn't sound like a fair and balanced appraisal of the chances that Sol could fight aand win a war against the rest of the GTVA to me. You flat out claimed they'd lose. The entire tone of your argument has been that the GTVA would always win and that there are no conditions under which Sol could be more powerful. I'd have dropped the entire matter several pages back if you were saying that Sol going to war was a reasonable possibility even if you think that it not going to war is more likely (Hell that's the position I hold but I'm not going to flat out state that a situation like in Inferno is suicidal or stupid).
If you want to take a more reasonable line on the whole thing now that's fine but don't try to claim that's been your position the entire time. I really don't think you're going to fool anyone into believing that.
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You know what would be cool? If Mobius and Snail joined this discussion. :lol:
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If the Vasudans can form colonies on Cygnis prime and still have only 100,000 people there it's probably not that heavily populated either. Not by Vasudans at least.
I have to wonder exactly how large the Vasudan populace could be for the GTVA. I get the picture from the story that they were not heavily populated before the Shivans blasted their homeworld to dust bunnies.
When Vasuda Prime was flattened by the SD Lucifer, the following briefing text was given:
Aftermath of Vasuda Attack
Most escaping transport ships were destroyed. All major Vasudan cities were leveled, and most of the landmass was rendered uninhabitable. All of our attacks launched from the nearby installations were defeated.
We have lost contact with all Terran ships in the area, but it appears that the Shivan fleet has now moved on. It’s estimated that four billion innocent Vasudans lost their lives in the attack.
This was the Vasudan home world, and probably the most heavily populated Vasudan settlement period. Colonies would generally be much smaller in over all populace. Just how small though is open to guesswork.
On to the Terran GTVA population:
The following comes from the species tech room entries. While it indicates a numerical measure of the Terran colonies, it says nothing about how well populated these places are.
To date, Terrans have successfully colonized twelve worlds outside of the Sol system. Outposts have been established on fifteen other planets and moons throughout the known galaxy. If the past is any indicator of future trends, unified expansionism will only continue to benefit the Alliance, both politically and economically.
My personal take is that all of these colonies together probably have a lower population than the home system. If, as has been stated, Capella's 250 million people is considered a dense population, What is considered sparse? Additionally, how many of these colonies and outposts are densly populated, and how many not? Even if the twelve major colonies all have 250,000,000, then 12 * 250,000,000 = 3,000,000,000.
Now if for the sake of argument, if we give the outposts the same population allowance as the planet colonies, it works out: (12+15) * 250,000,000 = 6,750,000,000.
The current population of Terra according to the U.S. Census Bureau : 6,638,068,993... Hmmm...
I've given the best information I could find. I think the statistics more likely support Sol as having the greater population. As far as resources go, there is enormous wealth available all over the solar system. Definitely enough to support a large scale armanent build up over an extended period of time. Terra would easily have the population it would need to support its building and research programs.
It's a little silly to equate a quantity of settlements as automatically being greater in populace and ability when compared to a single system like Sol just because it has a lower number of inhabitable planets.
My interpretation is that depending on the type of administrators in charge of Sol at the time the subspace pathway is reopened, the situation does have a possibility of degenerating into open hostilities.
Would you want your only point of entry and exit to be controlled by someone else? Especially if the possibility exists that the party in control may attempt to hold that advatage to gain some type of concessions from you? Under the situations that have been discussed (Terran military build up, decades of fear of extinction) it is very easy to see a war starting. Perhaps the administration of Sol would insist in taking control of the Terran parts of the GTVA... There are a lot of possibilities though.
I'm not saying there would be a conflict, just that the possibility does exist, and it is not that far fetched. Neither is the idea that Terra might come out on top in any conflict with the colonies, especially if the Vasudans stay out of it.
Let's keep the personal attacks out of it. While I disagree with pretty much 90% of the assertions Trashman has made on this thread I don't think anything is gained by insulting him.
I hadn't intended insulting him. He chose to interpret my comments previously to that post as a personal attack. They were intended as constructive criticism, although now that I've reread the origional comments they were perhaps a bit harsher than I'd intended. I don't feel they merited the petty insults that followed, however I should have just ignored it and gotten back to this topic.
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My interpretation is that depending on the type of administrators in charge of Sol at the time the subspace pathway is reopened, the situation does have a possibility of degenerating into open hostilities.
Would you want your only point of entry and exit to be controlled by someone else? Especially if the possibility exists that the party in control may attempt to hold that advatage to gain some type of concessions from you? Under the situations that have been discussed (Terran military build up, decades of fear of extinction) it is very easy to see a war starting. Perhaps the administration of Sol would insist in taking control of the Terran parts of the GTVA... There are a lot of possibilities though.
I'm not saying there would be a conflict, just that the possibility does exist, and it is not that far fetched. Neither is the idea that Terra might come out on top in any conflict with the colonies, especially if the Vasudans stay out of it.
That's pretty much my thinking on the matter. Sol could have nuked itself into oblivion, it could have been invaded by Shivans, it could be sitting there waiting for GTVA or it could start a war.
Any of those possibilities seems quite possible to me.
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If that's what you've been doing you really need to tell your earlier posts.
Sol fighting against the GTVA? That would be not only terribly stupid but also suicidal.
Realisticly, Sol has no real chance in a war, it's simply outclassed in manpower, industry and versatility.
Doesn't sound like a fair and balanced appraisal of the chances that Sol could fight aand win a war against the rest of the GTVA to me. You flat out claimed they'd lose. The entire tone of your argument has been that the GTVA would always win and that there are no conditions under which Sol could be more powerful. I'd have dropped the entire matter several pages back if you were saying that Sol going to war was a reasonable possibility even if you think that it not going to war is more likely (Hell that's the position I hold but I'm not going to flat out state that a situation like in Inferno is suicidal or stupid).
If you want to take a more reasonable line on the whole thing now that's fine but don't try to claim that's been your position the entire time. I really don't think you're going to fool anyone into believing that.
That's my take on what would most likely happen. I don't recall claiming that that statement was 100% correct, that it can't possibly be another outcome. My 2most probable" and your "most probable" don't even have to be the same.
that said, in that sentance I wasn't even trying to give a statistical overview, but rather my own, subjective view of what would happen.
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When Vasuda Prime was flattened by the SD Lucifer, the following briefing text was given:
Aftermath of Vasuda Attack
Most escaping transport ships were destroyed. All major Vasudan cities were leveled, and most of the landmass was rendered uninhabitable. All of our attacks launched from the nearby installations were defeated.
We have lost contact with all Terran ships in the area, but it appears that the Shivan fleet has now moved on. It’s estimated that four billion innocent Vasudans lost their lives in the attack.
This was the Vasudan home world, and probably the most heavily populated Vasudan settlement period. Colonies would generally be much smaller in over all populace. Just how small though is open to guesswork.
Question is - how many vasudans left Vasuda Prime before the Lucifer came? How many survived the bombardment? How many left the cities? How much is "most" of the transports? 6/10? 8/10?
Another thing to consider is what was the vasudan colonizations policy. Maby far more vasudans were prone to leaving Vasuda Prime and settling on other colonies than humans?
My personal take is that all of these colonies together probably have a lower population than the home system. If, as has been stated, Capella's 250 million people is considered a dense population, What is considered sparse? Additionally, how many of these colonies and outposts are densly populated, and how many not? Even if the twelve major colonies all have 250,000,000, then 12 * 250,000,000 = 3,000,000,000.
Now if for the sake of argument, if we give the outposts the same population allowance as the planet colonies, it works out: (12+15) * 250,000,000 = 6,750,000,000.
The current population of Terra according to the U.S. Census Bureau : 6,638,068,993... Hmmm...
I've given the best information I could find. I think the statistics more likely support Sol as having the greater population. As far as resources go, there is enormous wealth available all over the solar system. Definitely enough to support a large scale armanent build up over an extended period of time. Terra would easily have the population it would need to support its building and research programs.
Dense population can have multiple meanings - as in, a lot of people in a small space. Could be that all Capellans were crammed into one city. Or it could be densly populated for it's age/colony type, not densly populated in general :P
Nevermind.... you got to admit that the FS universe is very interesting :nod:
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Question is - how many vasudans left Vasuda Prime before the Lucifer came? How many survived the bombardment? How many left the cities? How much is "most" of the transports? 6/10? 8/10?
Thing is questions like that don't help your case. You're the one trying to claim that the GTVA must be more powerful because of it's larger population. If you're pointing out that the data on which the population of the GTVA is based on is shaky than that makes your entire chain of logic suspect too.
That's my take on what would most likely happen. I don't recall claiming that that statement was 100% correct, that it can't possibly be another outcome. My 2most probable" and your "most probable" don't even have to be the same.
I never said that Sol starting a war is the most probable outcome. I simply said that it's a possible one. You repeatedly stated that the chance was very small, and it would be a certain defeat for Sol if it did happen and that the GTVA IS more powerful. In fact the last 3-4 pages of your posts have been little more than you claiming that it's more powerful for increasingly spurious reasons.
That's where you're making massive assumptions and stacking all the variables your way blind to the fact that they could just as easily stack in the other direction.
You've repeatedly asserted that the GTVA has a larger population than Sol based on no evidence whatsoever. You've repeatedly asserted it must have a better economy and resource exploitation again on no evidence. You're not giving a fair and balanced view no matter how hard you want to claim that you are.
I've repeatedly stated that I don't think that the GTVA and Sol going to war is the only possible or even most likely outcome. So why the hell you thought that you needed to disagree with me if you really think that Sol going to war is a distinct possibility is a complete mystery to me.
To state it simply.
1) I don't think Sol going to war with the GTVA is the most likely possibility
2) I do however think it is a reasonable one and if someone wants to make a campaign based on that I'm not going to argue with them or say it's not possible, unlikely or suicidal.
3) Sol's power coming out of its exile is going to be dependent on the degree of economic damage it suffered after the node was sealed as well as a variety of other factors that could see Sol coming out more powerful than the entire GTVA, simply as a powerful system or as a economic ruin requiring the GTVAs help to rebuild. Which one is most likely is a matter of how you set up a bunch of assumptions and it's rather foolish to try to say one is more certain that than another. Even the game states that GTVA academics couldn't decide which one is more likely and they'd have more data to base that assumption on than we ever will.
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Thing is questions like that don't help your case. You're the one trying to claim that the GTVA must be more powerful because of it's larger population. If you're pointing out that the data on which the population of the GTVA is based on is shaky than that makes your entire chain of logic suspect too.
This is, we don't have no actualy data on he population of Sol or the GTVA. We're making conjectures based on 2 sentances taht realyl don't effer much insight on the matter..
So there's nothing suspicios about my logic.
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Your entire chain of logic is based on such conjecture. Every single link is shaky. You haven't made a single argument yet that couldn't be shot full of holes.
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Your entire chain of logic is based on such conjecture. Every single link is shaky. You haven't made a single argument yet that couldn't be shot full of holes.
Neither have you...
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Not true. Besides as so frequently happens in these discussions I don't need to prove I'm right. I just need to prove you're wrong.
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Cool it, peoples. This is if
In Halo, it says that when the max population of Earth (which was about 10billion) only then were the humans actually forced
to migrate to Mars, or somewhere in Sol.
So Sol has around 10 billion people already, not to mention all the other population from other Planets which are sure to ally with Earth.
:)
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In Halo, it says that when the max population of Earth (which was about 10billion) only then were the humans actually forced
to migrate to Mars, or somewhere in Sol.
I'm afraid you're comparing apples to oranges - Halo is a completely different universe setting. What works in one will not really equate with the other. You can try and compare them, but it's not really worthwhile because of the differences underlying each story on the base level.
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In terms of population, The UN expects the Earth's population to grow to 9 billion by 2050, barring some mass extinction event. It expects the population to eventually cap itself at around 10-11 billion, though the reasons for this are not agreed upon yet. It's doubtful, once again barring mass extinction, that the population will ever decrease significantly without returning to its former level within a couple generations.
Also note that the UN has considered Macroviruses such as AIDS in their estimates, as seen on their population assumptions page:
http://esa.un.org/unpp/index.asp?panel=4
With this in mind, it's not totally unreasonable to suggest that the population of all mankind over the freespace timeline to have reached 11 billion, if not even more perhaps, given that in the printed material and game sources there are no mentions of any such mass extinction event.
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I'm simply using that as an example to back up my statement.
Besides, that universe along with this universe refers to the same planet: Earth.
And it's not as if the Halo universe drastically changed the settings for Earth. In fact, it gives an extremely certain fact about Earth, something that can't be speculated as it is here in Freespace.
Now, don't think that I'm criticizing what V tells us players, but I'm just making a point.
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Not true. Besides as so frequently happens in these discussions I don't need to prove I'm right. I just need to prove you're wrong.
My dear Kaj, you can repeat that statement a million times but it won't become any truer :lol:
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The difference is that I'm not saying that Earth will win a war. Only that it might. I've never said that it's a foregone conclusion that it will win while you have said that it definitely will lose.
You're the one who made the assertion that you're correct. I just need to create reasonable doubt that you could be wrong.
You can't counter me saying "Earth might have a population of 11 billion" with "It might not" It doesn't matter that it might not. All I have to prove is that if it does your entire house of cards argument comes crashing down. I haven't build a house of cards. I haven't made any claims as to what I think would happen and said that the other position is impossible. You can't destroy my argument by saying "That might not be true" because at each and every step I've already acknowledged it might not be true.
That's the danger of making assertions. If they're wrong then the entire chain of logic falls apart.
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I didn't say it's impossible. I said that I think GTVA will win hands down.
What I think will happen in FS future (FS3 anyone) and what might/could happen are two differetn things.
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Well TMan i have to dissagree with you abou the GTVA winnin hands down! Sure Sol might be a bi less developed in some areas then the GTVA but it might be a lot more developed then the GTVA in other areas! Also i agree that Sol population would be at least equal if not more then that of the entire GTVA !
However that is besides the point! Cuz right now i think you might be some sort of shivan agent infiltated deep into the heart of the HL comunity! So anyone run a byo check on him and if he shows even the smallest iregularitie beam him good perhaps using a Mjolnir :P
Just joking here!
he posibilaties of a war are very real however the posibilaties that there might be no war to speak of are stronger.
Also i do believe some sort of small skirmishes between some lunatics o fanatics like the NTF or HOL and the rest of SOL/GTVA milatary migh also happen but that is about it! Lets not forget we are talking about the cradle of terran civilization something which well lets say is he jewel of the crown for all terrans.
And i dont think the vasudans would be too upset either if anithing they might actualy be glad something like this happenes.
There was also the posibilaty that there might be a war between the terrans and the vasudans. I say this has even weaker chances of happening then Sol gooing to an all out war with the GTVA over the way they cook they patotoes.
The Vasudans are by no means weak and if i understood the game corectly they might actualy have more cap ships left then the terrans. We already know they have a better economy and infrastrucure. Not to mention overall better tech.
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I didn't say it's impossible. I said that I think GTVA will win hands down.
And that's my point. I only to to prove that Sol would win if different but reasonable assumptions are made to show that you could easily be wrong.
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Well TMan i have to dissagree with you abou the GTVA winnin hands down! Sure Sol might be a bi less developed in some areas then the GTVA but it might be a lot more developed then the GTVA in other areas! Also i agree that Sol population would be at least equal if not more then that of the entire GTVA !
Sure you do. Everyone has an oppinion and yours is as valid as mine ;)
The world would be pretty boring if everyone thought like me, no? (alltough it wozuld be rather peacefull and safe :P )
And that's my point. I only to to prove that Sol would win if different but reasonable assumptions are made to show that you could easily be wrong.
And when did I say that I couldn't possibly be wrong?
The only thing this debate has proven is that the info given to us by the game is not enough to come to a really probabable solution, since, dependgin how you interpret the info, it can go both ways.
But then again this is pretty much like any debate we had over FS universe (remeber the battleship debate? :lol: Oh, good ol' times )
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I remember THAT Battleship debate. With dread and fear. Then were was that Sathanas debate. And that religious debate. Seriously, can't you guys just get along peacefully?
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The only thing this debate has proven is that the info given to us by the game is not enough to come to a really probabable solution, since, dependgin how you interpret the info, it can go both ways.
That's pretty much what I've been trying to get you to say since this started. :p
Had you simply said "Fair point but I think Sol would probably lose" here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,50910.msg1029188.html#msg1029188). I would have said that's a fair opinion even if I disagree with it and that would have been the end of the matter. :p
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I'd say that neither of you can resist starting a heated debate about something especially if one of you is already participating in it. Oh well at least it gives the General Freespace DISCUSSION forum some badly needed discussion. And it is fun to watch you arguing.
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I remember THAT Battleship debate. With dread and fear. Then were was that Sathanas debate. And that religious debate. Seriously, can't you guys just get along peacefully?
That ended up in a lockage IIRC, but it was a good one. A lot of good argument were made, but eventually it ended like this one - with the "it can go either way depending on how you interpret the canon data" conclusion.
Get along peacefully? What, you think we're fighting? This is all just good friendly fun :p
I'd say that neither of you can resist starting a heated debate about something especially if one of you is already participating in it. Oh well at least it gives the General Freespace DISCUSSION forum some badly needed discussion. And it is fun to watch you arguing.
Hear that Kaj? Maby we should start charging admissions! Fun isn't free! :lol:
Had you simply said "Fair point but I think Sol would probably lose" here. I would have said that's a fair opinion even if I disagree with it and that would have been the end of the matter.
True, but then we wouldn't have had this long, interesting and fun thread. Besides, I needed a few more posts from my HLP card pwr lvl 9 ;7
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Actually I'd be more than happy to have had the discussion without feeling the need to argue.
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Everyone would desire that, except unfortunately people don't like going down. <sad . . . :( >
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Actually I'd be more than happy to have had the discussion without feeling the need to argue.
Excellent...but it might not be that fun for the public...and I already started charging admissions.. what if they want a refund?
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I could call you names while agreeing with you if need be. :p
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Charging admissions?
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well since its so fun some sort of taxes must be made! Too much fun and no menoy is no good .
However all this gooing back and forth over different asumptions and questions has made think of something else of some interest.
When the GTVA reopenes the node to Sol what makes you believe that the node will stay opened for very long. I mean this is a question noone asked yet. It could be they can only maintain the node open for only x period of time before it colapses again since stabilizing an unstable node and reopening a colapsed node are 2 different things.
also if they do manage to open up a node or to put it simple contruct a node via knossos gate who would say that 2 gates from 2 different sistems can not be linked toghether.
We already have some sort of hint that such a thing is posible from that mission with the maras where you take out some com nodes or whatever. seeing as how they did not recognize any star patterns this could mean they were way out of any known space mappened by the GTVA or spotted via telescope or something like that!
If that is the case and such a thing would be posible then would it be safe to asume that the shivans used that node they created via capella supernova to jump all of they fleet to a different part of the galaxi? Perhaps even to Sol?
If so then the posibilaties of this tech are imesurable.
Im still not convinced TMan isnt a shivan undercover agant so im gooing to keep a beam lock on him! :D
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I have absolutely no idea what you mean by linking jump gates together but the possibility of the Terran Knossos only working for a short time is an interesting one.
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well i was refering to linkin a knossos from Delta Serpentis to another one from lets say regulus thus creating one giant direct connection via subspace!
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Hmmm. Another one of those debates where everyone thinks they're right, an no one knows that it's ok sometimes to be wrong and admit defeat. Certainly since sol right now here on the hlp has "flight of the ego's" going on, surely the gtva would win :lol:
It's good everyone agrees that sol in general is rich in resources. An ok amount of solid planets, and tons of moons oh god. Did i mention the asteroid belt, jupiter, saturn, uranus for good resource collecting? No way, everyone already knew about this. Earth would probably build up it's forces, but i don't think anything crazy big, i'd say it'd probably be slightly bigger than the most gtva vessels in one system at a time somewhere else in the galaxy (and that's a lot of ships right there too). Earth would not only have the resources to build more stuff, but probably the man power, i doubt the human population is going to shrink with everyone falling in love with bad finances, ****ing, and having numerous accidental children just for the welfare support and or sympathy from other people :lol: The more that our surroundings get smaller the bigger the population will get (the idea that the world was bigger before information technology...and also before other technology). There could be another mass extinction event sort of like the black plague of 1347, but i doubt it. Modern science and preventative measures for most things dangerous do bring up longevity for everybody who listens and takes stuff to mind, even while the world still has little kids jumping off of buildings imitating a WoW special move in real life.
But, anyway. The gtva shouldn't have blown up the original knossos, if they had a chance at doing it (which they did, but the gtva was too busy scanning the dumb thing to think of my idea because in fs i can travel to future, and then back into the past and know what exactly to anticipate...this game has a high replayability value to it) they should have used my idea. Dismantle the knossos, The knossos has several pieces to it, they can be separated and towed through a node. And then you have a real knossos for sol :nod:
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I could call you names while agreeing with you if need be. :p
That wouldn't fool the mases. We'll just find something else to "seemingly" argue about. We'll set everything up beforehand like wrestling. We'll have to write a list of topic to argue about and a list of answers and counter-answers, but we'll have to make it convincing. After all, the dopes around here can't know it's all staged...Oh wait, did I say all of this out loud?
Im still not convinced TMan isnt a shivan undercover agant so im gooing to keep a beam lock on him! Big grin
*fires AlphaOne!!!!! with his head mounted particle cannon.. Leaves no witnesses.*
But, anyway. The gtva shouldn't have blown up the original knossos, if they had a chance at doing it (which they did, but the gtva was too busy scanning the dumb thing to think of my idea because in fs i can travel to future, and then back into the past and know what exactly to anticipate...this game has a high replayability value to it) they should have used my idea. Dismantle the knossos, The knossos has several pieces to it, they can be separated and towed through a node. And then you have a real knossos for sol
Exactly! Come to think of it, from a purely engineering standpoint it shouldn't be that hard to construct a knossos.. It's made out of 4 large and 4 small individual parts, and you can construct each in a different shipyard. It would be like making 4 destroyers and 4 corvettes at the same time.
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Just for the sake of argument, there is bound to be more than one way to build the portal. The Ancient's version looked pretty stylized and decorative. It's just possible that they have a habit of building their version of aesthetics into their tech - sort of like today's auto industry for example. If just the absolute essentials were considered by each manufacturer, cars would look even more alike than they do between different manufacturers.
Nonfunctional design is also the theme of the Shivan and Vasudan space craft. You have to wonder why a race would do such a thing, because it is ultimately more difficult to sculpt a product's shape and still retain expected performance than to stick to a no-frills functional design, not to mention more costly (especially the Shivans with their swarm principal of battle tactics). Although psychological shock can be a factor at times, generally it is something that quickly wears off.
What is kind of odd is that after all the scanning of the Knossos in Gamma Draconis, that the GTVA did not simply attempt to turn it off instead of blowing it up. According to canon, the NTC Trinity had turned on the Knossos in the first place. Why not shut it off? Why would blowing it up make sense at all?
To go along with Alpha's idea, it actually makes a bit of sense that Knossos gates could be constructed to link other systems together that do not have an existing shared subspace pathway. This could make for some interesting economic and military shifts in the status quo. That is of course if the technology will support this, or if it merely is capable of stablizing an existing node.
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That is assuming that the GTVA know how to turn it off. It took Bosch several months of research to figure out how to turn it on and given that the Trinity was destroyed and Bosch was by that point in the Nebula there might not have been anyone left who knew how to turn it off.
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...Not to mention that turning a node on/off might take a bit of time. This isn't a lightbulb; it's a subspace corridor. :rolleyes:
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Valid point of course Kara, still, if the eggheads think they can recreate the thing, it's not that far fetched that they might be able to figure out how to shut it down. Of course that wouldn't be quite so dramatic as a giant kaboom from the developer's viewpoint.
As for the complexity involved in the task, again possibly valid, however no evidence to support nor rule out that this is the case, merely speculation. Again, I think it's pretty much the dramatics involved in the explosive solution which appealed to the devs - it's a lot harder to make throwing a switch exciting than a big detonation.
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with sol gone the colonies could have started a "procreate don't let mankind end here!" program. :nervous:
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with sol gone the colonies could have started a "procreate don't let mankind end here!" program.
Well, sure they could have... but so could Sol...
Point is in this case there's no way either side would have anything really concrete on what the other side is up to - or if they exist at all anymore.
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Well, sure they could have... but so could Sol...
True...but Sol probably has a bigger living space issue.
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Well, sure they could have... but so could Sol...
True...but Sol probably has a bigger living space issue.
Do you realize just how big star systems are? I'm sure given their technology they could probably colonize all of the jovian planets and moons, some asteroids, and build numerous space stations. If Earth could support 7 billion people now (barely), I'm sure mars could eventually be adapted to support a billion, maybe Venus, too. Mercury would be only a bit harder to colonize than the moon, but no harder than Venus. Then there are space stations. For whatever possible population increase in Sol, there would still be more than enough room to build space stations to accommodate the people.
Trust me, there is no problem with living space in Sol.
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And by the time the people of Sol expand out to space, I'm definitely sure that their genetic skill can allow them to kept crops and
stock on planets like Mercury even!!! :nod:
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Do you realize just how big star systems are? I'm sure given their technology they could probably colonize all of the jovian planets and moons, some asteroids, and build numerous space stations. If Earth could support 7 billion people now (barely), I'm sure mars could eventually be adapted to support a billion, maybe Venus, too. Mercury would be only a bit harder to colonize than the moon, but no harder than Venus. Then there are space stations. For whatever possible population increase in Sol, there would still be more than enough room to build space stations to accommodate the people.
Trust me, there is no problem with living space in Sol.
Have you even the faintest idea how long it takes to terraform a planet? Even planets like mars would take several hundered years with the best tech we have today. Even with a far better tech it'd still take hunderds of years.
Do look into that problematic a bit...
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Have you even the faintest idea how long it takes to terraform a planet? Even planets like mars would take several hundered years with the best tech we have today. Even with a far better tech it'd still take hunderds of years.
Do look into that problematic a bit...
True to some extent, however I'm not 100% sure you are correct about more advanced technology, should it become available. Tech has a way of surprising even the greatest minds. It really wasn't that long ago when home PCs were considered science fiction, not to mention being far down the road from today. What I'm getting at is that putting artificial, arbitrary limits on what may be possible in time is not really the answer to proving a point.
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Have you even the faintest idea how long it takes to terraform a planet? Even planets like mars would take several hundered years with the best tech we have today. Even with a far better tech it'd still take hunderds of years.
They may have had hundreds of years though. Until the discovery of subspace it's quite possible that Sol was all the Terrans had. In which case terraforming Mars would have been quite a priority. Given that they've got over 300 years before the start of FS1 from now that's plenty of time. Especially if you start sending down lifeforms specifically engineered to terraform the planets.
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Considering Ad. Petrach claims it would take at least a decade to build one Knossos in order to reopen Delta Sup.-Sol node, it would mean that we would be looking at a time period of around 50 years before we could attempt to make our way home after the Lucifer blew the node. A lot could have happened in that time period.
Only 4 Vasudans made it through the node. Therefore, it is plausable that if they did settle on Earth initially, then there is the chance that they died out due to limited numbers. However, in saying this, I do not know if GTI and GTA headquaters had Vasudan consultants or scientists.
Considering this extended hiatus between home and the fleets, it could be possible that Earth either diverted a lot of resources into developing new craft capable of high speeds in order to investigate the possiblity of new undiscovered nodes within Sol. I did suggest that this is what the Ancients initially did when they first started collonising planets and systems.
Going on a tangent to my previous idea, it is also entirely credible that seeing as Earth has been attacked once before, the GTA implemented plans for an agressive defence of the node should it ever re-open. These plans could include RBCs, Corvettes, new destroyers or a Super Destroyer with the single intent of mullering anything that could come through the node.
My plan is simple then. We attempt to get communications through. We know from battling the Lucifer in Subspace that radio transmissions canget through, albeit with some interference. Therefore I suggest we station a Communications Science Cruiser as close to the Delta node as possible on as many GTA frequencies that we know of. If communications fail, then we send in 1 lone fighter in a recognised type such as a Hercules or a Ulyesses through the node. My theory being it is better to lose 1 fighter than the crew of a destroyer if Earth becomes hostile. If the fighter comes through unscathed, then we send a fleet consisting of 1 destroyer, (preferably Orion, but given they will be ancient at this time, we may have to settle for Hecate), 1 Science Cruiser and a Sobek, simply to show Earth that neither us or the Vausdans are hostile.
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With no immediate threat to public safety, would the public support a massive build-up of arms in Sol, after 32+ years or nothing happening? The government might want a continued military build-up, but after seeing advanced superdestroyers go unused for decades, would there be any public support whatsoever for building a new super-advanced juggernaught? It's more likely, in my opinion, that the GTA would build up a fairly large fleet of craft of about FS2 level, and just maintain that. People aren't going to want a fleet to combat a threat that vanished a lifetime ago.
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Have you even the faintest idea how long it takes to terraform a planet? Even planets like mars would take several hundered years with the best tech we have today. Even with a far better tech it'd still take hunderds of years.
Do look into that problematic a bit...
True to some extent, however I'm not 100% sure you are correct about more advanced technology, should it become available. Tech has a way of surprising even the greatest minds. It really wasn't that long ago when home PCs were considered science fiction, not to mention being far down the road from today. What I'm getting at is that putting artificial, arbitrary limits on what may be possible in time is not really the answer to proving a point.
Something about that reminded me of Bones in Star Trek Genesis. His quote that went along the lines of
"God created earth in six days, along comes man and BANG, we can do it in six days!"
And we all know how that ended! :P
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With no immediate threat to public safety, would the public support a massive build-up of arms in Sol, after 32+ years or nothing happening? The government might want a continued military build-up, but after seeing advanced superdestroyers go unused for decades, would there be any public support whatsoever for building a new super-advanced juggernaught? It's more likely, in my opinion, that the GTA would build up a fairly large fleet of craft of about FS2 level, and just maintain that. People aren't going to want a fleet to combat a threat that vanished a lifetime ago.
Depends on how good a job the GTA does of keeping them scared.
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Depends on how good a job the GTA does of keeping them scared.
True, look how long the cold war lasted!
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They may have had hundreds of years though. Until the discovery of subspace it's quite possible that Sol was all the Terrans had. In which case terraforming Mars would have been quite a priority. Given that they've got over 300 years before the start of FS1 from now that's plenty of time. Especially if you start sending down lifeforms specifically engineered to terraform the planets.
NASA considered such lifeforms. Their best estimates for terraforiming Mars (assuming best conditions) were around 500-600 years or so IIRC, and this was theoreticly, not counting the huge $$$, time and resources.
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Where?
As you well know I don't trust your hazy recollections. :p
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Do you realize just how big star systems are? I'm sure given their technology they could probably colonize all of the jovian planets and moons, some asteroids, and build numerous space stations. If Earth could support 7 billion people now (barely), I'm sure mars could eventually be adapted to support a billion, maybe Venus, too. Mercury would be only a bit harder to colonize than the moon, but no harder than Venus. Then there are space stations. For whatever possible population increase in Sol, there would still be more than enough room to build space stations to accommodate the people.
Trust me, there is no problem with living space in Sol.
Have you even the faintest idea how long it takes to terraform a planet? Even planets like mars would take several hundered years with the best tech we have today. Even with a far better tech it'd still take hunderds of years.
Do look into that problematic a bit...
I never said anything about terraforming. With the 24th century tech, I'm quite sure people can live comfortably in in enclosed bubbles on a planet's surface.
But anyway, neither of us can accurately say anything about terraforming. It's like living to the 1910s and trying to predict what kind of technology we'll have today. And what about all of the other planets that the GTVA has? I highly doubt that any of those are okay for humans to live on.
NASA considered such lifeforms. Their best estimates for terraforiming Mars (assuming best conditions) were around 500-600 years or so IIRC, and this was theoreticly, not counting the huge $$$, time and resources.
:wtf:
Wait, so they predicted it would take 500 to 600 years to terraform mars to a livable condition, not counting time? Either your sources are incorrect and you're incapable of finding good ones, or you yourself are untrustworthy and tend to distort the information so it's false. Wait, and it looks like Kara said so too. Therefore, I dub all of your premises null and possibly inaccurate. :p :nervous:
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Actually, not counting the time it takes to make a trip to there with materials. Projections assumed you already got all the needed materials there in an instant.
IIRC.
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Given the range of time you gave, the time it would take to get there is negligible.
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People from Sol first would need to find a way to actually get there. I mean, if right now, in the 21st century a bunch of people decided to make a run to even Jupiter, either they would: 1. Don't survive the asteroid field
2. Die from starvation
3. Die from old age.
Despite our rather fantastic tech here, we still need a far bette tech than we have now. And even if the Americas had so much money, well even
now they don't have enough $$$ to even pay for a working batch of plasma rifles.
YES I KNOW WHAT YOU ARE THINKING: BUT THEY DO EXIST.
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Well, intra-system jumps probably still work =)
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LOL...
People sometimes get too carried away with technology. A planet is a freakin HUGE, HUGE place. To terraform it you first need to create a breathable atmosphere.
For that you need to have HUGE quantities of oxygen somewhere on the planet already and find a way to release it.
In case of Mars, if there's enough ice on the poles you could:
1. Dump a lot of greenhouse gases to raise the atmosphere and melt the ice... Getting that huge ammounts there is the problem. Even then it would take a LOT of time for the temperature rise to do it's job, and it has to be done slowly. Too much gases and you'll f*** it up.
2. Use gigantic mirrors to focus suns rays at the poles.. again, it would take a lot of time...and giant mirrors are prone to breaking.
If there's no ice you'd have to fling icy meteors at hte plent long enough for an atmosphere to form.
then the foresting procedure...
Domes might work but they are very limited. They don't have much volume and colonies would have to be pretty much self-sufficient - which means productions of breathable air and food.
Not to mention that no atmosphere = practicly no protection from metoer shovers or solar radiation...
In short, colonizing a planet is a HUGE undertaking so I wouldn't be surprised if in FS humans still live on Earth exclusivly and have nothing but smaller outposts on toher moons...if even that.
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Assuming that the raw material are available to terraform the planet. If the crowding on Earth is bad enough it would be worth it to terraform Mars. I'm thinking that with the application of nearly unlimited power and materials you could create self replicating machines to convert the raw material to something that bacteria could be use to futher convert the planet. It could take a long time, however I'm thinking that you could apply more equipment and speed the job up. I'm sure there is a point of diminishing returns, but things grow pretty quickly once the basic materials are in place.
Another approach is to use develop organisms to convert the planet stage by stage. Each organism dieing as the converted one material into another (think of yeast), finishing with a environment that would sustain human life.
I would think that the human colony would start in a smaller area protected by shields and expand it as they developed the processes to terraform the planet.
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Domes might work but they are very limited. They don't have much volume and colonies would have to be pretty much self-sufficient - which means productions of breathable air and food.
Not to mention that no atmosphere = practicly no protection from metoer shovers or solar radiation...
Of course they have limited volume, but that doesn't mean you can't build more of them and bigger. And I'm sure that with the GTA's tech, they could mount some small anti-asteroid beams on the top of the domes. Plus you can probably grow plants inside the domes, which would help with the air and food. And AFAIK Mars has an atmosphere, so that would help against solar radiation. Plus, people on spaceships don't die from solar radiation, so that probably means the GTA has the technology to block it.
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It just all depends on how high priority the Terra-forming Mars project is going to be - like now since Earth isn't that trashed
the Americas simply makes expeditions to outer space because of interest for discovery, and the like.
When Earth is on the brink of some man-incurred major disaster or something llike that, then probably the world would be chanting
Terraform Mars! Terraform Mars!! :confused:
And that brings me to my second point = IF it takes so much money to equip all European armies with plasma rifles, how are they going
to pay to firstly research subspace and how to travel and then how are they going to build subspace drives, even for destroyers?
Like the GTVA Archives said, only after the GTVA was formed only then there was enough money to place inter-galaxy, not inter-system jump drives, and still then not all fighters/bombers were outfitted with them. Only a few.
If the GTVA went and had a war with Sol, and obviously the GTVA would have a considerable much more money than the Earth-Terrans, since they have colonies in nearly every known part of the galaxy, not to mention the technology, because like the old man says: Not all people of different nations (in this case systems) are identicle. Conclusion: Different Ideas Bring Different Thoughts!!
Plus money and resources to bring it about!!! :nod:
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There were never inter-galaxy jump drives in Freespace, though.
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Inter-system drives were installed in all craft early on in FS1... previously they had only been able to use them in large ships.
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There were never inter-galaxy jump drives in Freespace, though.
Then how do you explain the fact that a destroyer is FS2 is able to travel from Laramis to Polaris given that it hasn't been destroyed or damaged?
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There were never inter-galaxy jump drives in Freespace, though.
Then how do you explain the fact that a destroyer is FS2 is able to travel from Laramis to Polaris given that it hasn't been destroyed or damaged?
Maybe you've mixed some terms up. No one has made any intergalactic jumps in FS. Just inter-system. If you think for a moment just how huge galaxies are, you will most likely come to the conclusion that no one is making any intergalactic jumps any time soon.
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Inter-system drives were installed in all craft early on in FS1... previously they had only been able to use them in large ships.
If you mean they can be installed on any class that's one thing but they most certainly were not installed on all fighters. The Shivans seem to have intersystem jump drives on all their fighters but the Terrans and Vasudans most definitely do not.
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Inter-system drives were installed in all craft early on in FS1... previously they had only been able to use them in large ships.
If you mean they can be installed on any class that's one thing but they most certainly were not installed on all fighters. The Shivans seem to have intersystem jump drives on all their fighters but the Terrans and Vasudans most definitely do not.
It was mentioned in one of the FS1 command briefings that, after monitoring Shivan fighters long enough, scientists had come up with a way to make fighters carry inter-system jump drives and that they were in the process of installing them to all fighters. But in FS2, it was stated that inter-system jump drives for fighters are ****ing expensive and are reserved for special occasions only.
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Of course you could claim that it isn't discrepancy between the two and that the reason the GTA could afford it was that they had a lot more cash than the GTVA does. :D
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Quite so. After all, back then Sol was in the scene, and we all know that it seemed to be the climax of the Terran might. So, once Sol was severed from the other systems, the GTVA couldn't afford 'dem drives. They couldn't even manufacture Prometheus cannons. At least not the original model.
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Inter-system drives were installed in all craft early on in FS1... previously they had only been able to use them in large ships.
If you mean they can be installed on any class that's one thing but they most certainly were not installed on all fighters. The Shivans seem to have intersystem jump drives on all their fighters but the Terrans and Vasudans most definitely do not.
It was mentioned in one of the FS1 command briefings that, after monitoring Shivan fighters long enough, scientists had come up with a way to make fighters carry inter-system jump drives and that they were in the process of installing them to all fighters. But in FS2, it was stated that inter-system jump drives for fighters are ****ing expensive and are reserved for special occasions only.
This is strange. In the mission where the Colossus get's destroyed, you have to reach the Node and (quite obviously) make a intersystem jump. But how where they supposed to know the Sun's going supernova?
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Inter-system drives were installed in all craft early on in FS1... previously they had only been able to use them in large ships.
If you mean they can be installed on any class that's one thing but they most certainly were not installed on all fighters. The Shivans seem to have intersystem jump drives on all their fighters but the Terrans and Vasudans most definitely do not.
It was mentioned in one of the FS1 command briefings that, after monitoring Shivan fighters long enough, scientists had come up with a way to make fighters carry inter-system jump drives and that they were in the process of installing them to all fighters. But in FS2, it was stated that inter-system jump drives for fighters are ****ing expensive and are reserved for special occasions only.
This is strange. In the mission where the Colossus get's destroyed, you have to reach the Node and (quite obviously) make a intersystem jump. But how where they supposed to know the Sun's going supernova?
Correction: In the "Colossus Goes Boom" mission, you just have to jump out. In Apocalypse (the final mission), you must reach the node. Which is weird. But then again, you are leading an elite squadron, so maybe your ship and the rest of the squadron are equipped with inter-system drives. I don't know, I'm just guessing.
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Oh yeah right, I've confused that. Well, probably your Erinyes is expensive (and is probably f**king expenisve) and you're expensive too, which equals to supah expensive and the fighters flown by 1337-Squads get intersystem drives anyway. That's reasonable.
/EDIT: Played it again. The Apocalypse Cutscene is just ridicoulous. How are these Corv's supposed to survive a blast from a multiple 100'000'000 °C Supernova Shockwave? :rolleyes:
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There were never inter-galaxy jump drives in Freespace, though.
Maybe you've mixed some terms up. No one has made any intergalactic jumps in FS. Just inter-system. If you think for a moment just how huge galaxies are, you will most likely come to the conclusion that no one is making any intergalactic jumps any time soon.
Alright, sorry my mistake = I mixed the terms up . . .
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If you mean they can be installed on any class that's one thing but they most certainly were not installed on all fighters. The Shivans seem to have intersystem jump drives on all their fighters but the Terrans and Vasudans most definitely do not.
I'm pretty sure if you check there is an FS1 CB that says they were beginning the procedure for installing these on all fighters. I think.
EDIT: Sorry... got stuck on pg 9... um:
Of course you could claim that it isn't discrepancy between the two and that the reason the GTA could afford it was that they had a lot more cash than the GTVA does. :D
OK, so we have a Prometheus S situation.
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Inter-system drives were installed in all craft early on in FS1... previously they had only been able to use them in large ships.
If you mean they can be installed on any class that's one thing but they most certainly were not installed on all fighters. The Shivans seem to have intersystem jump drives on all their fighters but the Terrans and Vasudans most definitely do not.
It was mentioned in one of the FS1 command briefings that, after monitoring Shivan fighters long enough, scientists had come up with a way to make fighters carry inter-system jump drives and that they were in the process of installing them to all fighters. But in FS2, it was stated that inter-system jump drives for fighters are ****ing expensive and are reserved for special occasions only.
This is strange. In the mission where the Colossus get's destroyed, you have to reach the Node and (quite obviously) make a intersystem jump. But how where they supposed to know the Sun's going supernova?
All destroyers had already left the system, the node was about to be collapsed. The plan was to evacuate the system of all transports, then have all fighters jump to Vega. The Supernova didn't actually affect GTVA plans, apart from speeding them up a bit.
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All destroyers had already left the system, the node was about to be collapsed. The plan was to evacuate the system of all transports, then have all fighters jump to Vega. The Supernova didn't actually affect GTVA plans, apart from speeding them up a bit.
... Apart from maybe some unexpected casualties. The shockwave did wipe out at least a corvette and most likely some of those transports and such, which the GTVA was hoping of getting out with minimal casualties.
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EDIT: Played it again. The Apocalypse Cutscene is just ridicoulous. How are these Corv's supposed to survive a blast from a multiple 100'000'000 °C Supernova Shockwave? :rolleyes:
they don't.. :lol:
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EDIT: Played it again. The Apocalypse Cutscene is just ridicoulous. How are these Corv's supposed to survive a blast from a multiple 100'000'000 °C Supernova Shockwave? :rolleyes:
they don't.. :lol:
I assume Stones meant that the corvettes stay pretty much intact after the shockwave. One would assume that a supernova would vaporize a spaceship of that size. But no. They 'survive'.
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Well, not the second blast, but already multiple click's away the 1st blast would have molten these corvettes away.
Ah yes, TrashMan exactly got my point.
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This is strange. In the mission where the Colossus get's destroyed, you have to reach the Node and (quite obviously) make a intersystem jump. But how where they supposed to know the Sun's going supernova?
They don't. However it's also obvious that although you were launched from the Aquitane it has returned to EP before you finish the mission with the Bastion (Petrach survives!).
From that you can infer that all along the plan was for Alpha wing to remain behind and guard ships until moments before the node was sealed. And if that was the plan then unless it was a suicide mission they'd have given him a ship with intersystem drives.
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Well, not the second blast, but already multiple click's away the 1st blast would have molten these corvettes away.
Ah yes, TrashMan exactly got my point.
Looks Cool >> Realism
This appears to be the formula behind a lot of stuff in games.
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Given how the Shivans behave in the gameplay so far, it's quite surprising that they would try and send two of their cruisers to safely,
not just to reinforce the Shivan attack.