[HotSnoJ]

Why didn't the shivans use a lucifer class destroyer in FS2?

Some possible explanations:
-They didn't have the right or enough resources to make a second.
-The Lucifer costs allot of mulla (or resources) and since it can be destroyed in subspace it wouldn't be a great idea. Not to mention it would collapse nodes and may be bad in the long run for them.
-There are more but the shivans didn't want to or could not get them to the area in which FS2 happens fast enough.
-They lost the plans.
-The Lucifer's shields couldn't stop beams.
-After contact with the terrans in Gamma Draconas (sp?) a Lucifer task force would not work.
-They just wanted to blow up the Cappella star. And that was their plan all along.
-A combo of these.

And of coarse this opens up more questions like, "Did the shivans have Sathanas during FS1?", "Is the Sathanas main purpose to blow up stars?"



Happy flaming...er...discussion(s)...

[Jal-18]

I always thought that there was only one Lucifier, built specifiaclly to exterminate the Terrans.  Meh.

[Woolie Wool]

"Some possible explanations:
-They didn't have the right or enough resources to make a second."
Yeah, and Christina Aguilera is concert master in the New York Philiharmonic Orchestra. If they can build 110 Santhanas juggernauts, they can build as many Lucifers as they want.

"-The Lucifer costs allot of mulla (or resources) and since it can be destroyed in subspace it wouldn't be a great idea. Not to mention it would collapse nodes and may be bad in the long run for them."
As I said previously, if the bugs can field 110 Sathanases and purposely sacrifice them to destroy a star (talk about wasted resources), they can build plenty of Lucifers.

"-There are more but the shivans didn't want to or could not get them to the area in which FS2 happens fast enough."
They probably didn't want to.

"-They lost the plans."
Almost impossible.

"-The Lucifer's shields couldn't stop beams."
BINGO! Now that the GTVA has beams, the Lucifer's main defense is useless. Besides its Shivan Super Lasers, it has no real weapons, so the Colossus or even a couple of destroyers would rip it to pieces.

"-After contact with the terrans in Gamma Draconis, a Lucifer task force would not work."
They didn't want to bring out Lucifers against an adversary with beams. The Lucifer is nothing more than a terror weapon, and once it's shields are defeated, it's much less terrifying.

"-They just wanted to blow up the Cappella star. And that was their plan all along."
I don't think Lucifers would be big enough to accomodate the gravity-warping thingamabobs

"-A combo of these."
Read my explanations.

"And of course this opens up more questions like, 'Did the shivans have Sathanas during FS1?', 'Is the Sathanas main purpose to blow up stars?'"
The Sathanas is probably a different sort of terror weapon that the Shivans use when their enemy doesn't get the message the first time around. Its main purpose is to scare the **** out of other races and destroy their fleets as well (that's why it has FOUR BFReds).

[Black Wolf]

I kinda think of the Lucifer as a scoting ship, or some sort of Transport for a shivan Queen or whatever. I mean, if it wasn't something like that, why not have every ship sheath shielded?

That would explain why they didn;t use Lucy in FS2 - if it was a scout ship, then they'd already encountered Terrans and Vasudans before, and if it was a queen ship, then they'd do well to keep it off the front lines given that we know how to destroy it.

[Black Wolf]

I'm not sure I agree with you on the final point there WW.

The Sathannas in my estimation was designed to destroy stars - I mean, no other shivan ship that we've seen has bendy arms, or anything like that kind of power. Similarly, if it was a warship, why not use it in FS1, straight after the loss of the lucifer? Presumeably their entrance point into our systems was still open, and at the FS1 level of tech a 6km long Shivan destroyer would have been utterly undefeatable, subspace or otherwise.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
I'm not sure I agree with you on the final point there WW.

The Sathannas in my estimation was designed to destroy stars - I mean, no other shivan ship that we've seen has bendy arms, or anything like that kind of power. Similarly, if it was a warship, why not use it in FS1, straight after the loss of the lucifer? Presumeably their entrance point into our systems was still open, and at the FS1 level of tech a 6km long Shivan destroyer would have been utterly undefeatable, subspace or otherwise.

Maybe there was social upheaval within the Shivan population after the Lucifer's defeat (if social and political upheaval is possible for Shivans) that prevented their armada from bringing new ships to the table. Maybe they wanted to lull the Terrans and Vasudans into a false sense of security, or maybe they wanted to wait for dissident groups to wear them down sufficiently before they made their move. Who knows?

[Thor]

Maybe the Sathanas is simply the next evolutionary step in Shivan Technology.  Given that they are an ancient race (even more so than the Ancients), it is plausible that they have the capability to mass produce ships of that size in 30 years.  So therefore the Sathanas is simply a one up of the Lucifer, such as a Hecate is one up on the Orion (in theory) and the Colossus is one up further (in theory), or to use a contemporary example, the Seawolf is one better than the LA class attack sub.  Simple technology evolution at work.

[Goober5000]

FYI, from what we've seen on the SCP, we're pretty convinced that the fact shields pierce beams is a bug - not Volition's intent.

[Woolie Wool]

Originally posted by Thor
Maybe the Sathanas is simply the next evolutionary step in Shivan Technology.  Given that they are an ancient race (even more so than the Ancients), it is plausible that they have the capability to mass produce ships of that size in 30 years.  So therefore the Sathanas is simply a one up of the Lucifer, such as a Hecate is one up on the Orion (in theory) and the Colossus is one up further (in theory), or to use a contemporary example, the Seawolf is one better than the LA class attack sub.  Simple technology evolution at work.

The Hecate really isn't bigger and tougher than the Orion; it's just a redesign that addresses the Orion's lack of anti-fighter weaponry. In a one-on-one fight, the Orion would have the upper hand.

However, a Hatshepsut, Ravana, or Demon could kick both their asses.

[Mr. Vega]

On the FS2 box:

...and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party...

[karajorma]

There isn't any actual evidence that Terran beams would have any effect on the Lucifer.

I tend to believe that they would but if anyone wants to say that they don't in their own campaigns I'd be perfectly happy to buy the explaination

As for the resources thing you aren't thinking deeply enough Woolie Wool. Who says building a sath uses exactly the same resources as a Lucifer? Suppose that building a Lucifer's reactors needs neutronium or some other exotic material that the shivans can only make or mine slowly?

As for losing the plans, the Ancients describe being beaten by something that sounds very similar to the Lucifer's attack on Vasuda Prime. If the Lucifer is 8000 years old then it's quite possible that in the intervening time the plans have gotten lost.

Basically you can make a pretty strong case for any of the reasons given by Hotsnoj.

[kode]

Originally posted by Woolie Wool
As I said previously, if the bugs can field 110 Sathanases and purposely sacrifice them to destroy a star (talk about wasted resources), they can build plenty of Lucifers.  

I doubt that they sacrificed them. I believe that they engineered subspace somehow. And if I remember the particular cutscene correctly, a lot of the sathani, if not all, jumped out before capella collapsed.

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by karajorma
Basically you can make a pretty strong case for any of the reasons given by Hotsnoj.

Thanks karajorma. Aleast you're thinking today

[TopAce]

110 Sathanas? I thought there were ONLY:D 80. The Lucifer is the symbol of the threat of the Great War in FS1, Volition rather designed a ship comparable with the Colossus. I think the shields can provide adequate defense against beams, too. What makes you think the Ancients didn't have beam or some another type of weapons for mass destruction? Atomic bomb

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Goober5000
FYI, from what we've seen on the SCP, we're pretty convinced that the fact shields pierce beams is a bug - not Volition's intent.

Doesn't matter what Volition's intent was. What we have, is a  final release of a game which we must take as the basis for the canon of the universe in which that game is set. There is no way V could not  have noticed that beams pierced shields, and if it was not their final (even if it was not their original) intent, then they are obviously lazier coders than we'd all been led to believe. Similarly, if beams were not meant to pierce shields, then the Collossus was an absolute waste of time.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Similarly, if beams were not meant to pierce shields, then the Collossus was an absolute waste of time.

Who says it wasn't?

Seriously though, just because the GTVA thought that the beams on the Colossus could penetrate the Lucifer's shields doesn't mean that they could.
 Had the Colossus been designed in Sol I might be more willing to believe it definately could but since the Lucy was destroyed halfway into Sol the GTVA won't have access to any parts of the Lucy to check if their theory was correct.
  It is quite possible that had a second Lucifer shown up that the Colossus could have sat there for hours firing at it with no effect.
Everyone assumes that the shields on the Lucifer would be broken by current GTVA beams but there is no data whatsoever to support that position.
 We all assume that beams ignore shields based on what happens when a fighter gets hit but that's like assuming that cause a bullet can penetrate plate mail it can go straight through a tanks armour.
 Remember that the Lucifer never took a single hitpoint in damage until the final mission which means that it's shields are incredibly powerful, maybe even strong enough that even a beam can't pierce them.

Lastly what no one here seems to have mentioned is that the Shivans had 32 years to improve the shields on the Lucifer. It might be that even now they are working on a new version that is beam resistant varient of the Lucifer sporting a couple of OMFG-Reds instead of the wimpy proto-beams that the original Lucifer had.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by karajorma
Remember that the Lucifer never took a single hitpoint in damage until the final mission

Actually, there is one mission in the original FS1 campaign where the mission designers forgot to make it invulnerable.  The Lucifer jumps in and never jumps out, even when you're finished all your mission objectives.

Not to pass up a chance like that, my roommate took the opportunity to pound away at it with nothing but a Valkyrie armed with Promethei and Furies.  He did eventually destroy it, but it came back a few missions later.

[Knight Templar]

That must have took longer than the Hades

Well, what if the Lucy had a specific purpose. It has a target on a planet, and it's job is to bring a support fleet in, destroy the target, and leave. Obviously, since Earth was cut off, there would be no more need for the Lucifer.

The real question is, what the **** were the Sathanes doing in and only in Capella?

[redsniper]

well, I think that the Lucifer is invulnerable to all GTVA weapons including beams.  It simply cannot be destroyed outside of subspace.  Why the Shivans didn't just rush the GTVA with 100 Lucifers in FS2 I don't know.

Originally posted by Knight Templar
The real question is, what the **** were the Sathanes doing in and only in Capella?

getting ready to eat deep fried Terrans:D

[Knight Templar]

Would you send an Army Battalion to stop a Bank Robber?