Author Topic: MechWarrior Online  (Read 189369 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Do elaborate, how is the rest of Battletech more plausible exactly?

People actually worked on it. As BattleTech in the FASA days alone has played host to over fifty novels, dozens of sourcebooks, three RPG editions and paraphernalia, and has enjoyed a continuity of writers, it has developed significantly more as a result.

Or in other words if you work on something long enough you actually have to think about this ****. We actually had somebody go around compiling various references and the like and put out a resource (Objective Raids 3067) that you could consult if you wanted to know where a particular component of a particular design was produced. That's getting dangerously close to a functional economic model for the military-industrial complex of the Inner Sphere.

So we have an unmatched level of detail to draw upon. And it does, for the most part, fit together without serious issue.
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Offline Spoon

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I'm sure that Gundam has produced a smiliar numbers of novels/manga/games/sidestories/whatever, This doesn't tell me what part is more plausible (not the same as developed) however.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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I'm sure that Gundam has produced a smiliar numbers of novels/manga/games/sidestories/whatever, This doesn't tell me what part is more plausible (not the same as developed) however.

A: It hasn't.

B: They're often the same thing. Plausibility is achieved by thinking about how **** works. Development can be achieved by explaining how **** works.
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Offline Spoon

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A: It hasn't.
Come on, you can do better than that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gundam_manga_and_novels#Mobile_Suit_Gundam_.28Universal_Century.29
That's not even including the various anime (sidestory ovas and the like) and games.
There's a **** ton of gundam **** out there just like there is a **** ton of battletech **** out there.

B: They're often the same thing. Plausibility is achieved by thinking about how **** works. Development can be achieved by explaining how **** works.
You still haven't told me how Battletech is more plausible than Gundam.

While I enjoy this discussion, the last thing I want to do is turn this thread into a dumb as **** fanboy related abortion. I for one enjoy both universes (and if you can't do that for whatever reason, its your own loss really.) so lets not turn this into a 'my universe is better than your universe' debate. Because that's dumb as hell.
So try harder NGTM-1R, I know for a fact that you are one of the people on this board that can come up with better posts than the ones above.
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 
Blueflame BlueFlames quite literally named a list of things that according to him, make the battletech universe 'better' than the gundam universe. He literally named 'anime bull****-o physics' as a point. Supposedly because Battletech does not have 'bull****-o physics' and is therefore 'more realistic'. You can speak for yourself here, but you don't seem to be speaking for Blueflame BlueFlames.

You know, if you're going to put words in my mouth, you can at least spell and capitalize my name correctly.

And it's worth noting that I wasn't comparing universes.  I was comparing a clip of a battle from a Gundam anime to my experience with the MechWarrior franchise.  You extrapolated to make that into a comparison between the universes of both franchises.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Come on, you can do better than that.

Don't bull**** me son, I'm not an idiot who believes anything linked on Wikipedia. Go over there and count that ****. (66 UC Gundam manga and novels by my count, including the stuff of dubious relation and canonicity like G-Savior.) Tell me that manga demands the same level of intellectual rigor as writing a game book with a straight face; tell me that there's not more information on the basic workings of a world in one gamebook then an entire manga series with a straight face.

Check this Wikipedia link: Novels only. No gamebooks. No sourcebooks. That's over 100. Count 'em.

Gundam didn't produce nearly the same amount of supporting detail or work, certainly not for one universe.

B: They're often the same thing.
You still haven't told me how Battletech is more plausible than Gundam.

I don't really know how you can get more direct than that.

Wait, I do.

They are the same thing.

Let me spell it out for you: plausibility is both created by adding detail to a work on its own, which makes it more closely resemble a reality (because reality is really damn detailed) and created by explaining how things within a work themselves function, which is often necessary while expanding the work. Literary (for lack of a better term) mediums are better at this than visual ones.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2012, 11:22:54 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline headdie

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er guys can we calm down?

my understanding the clip was posted to demonstrate the movement and attack styles typically seen in Japanese anime in an attempt to understand the difference in movement/attack styles and while evolution in the thread is expected, this "discussion" is reading more like personal attacks to me.

So yes while mechs in BT move pretty fast (50-120 km/h typical) in a strait line and turn pretty well, there is no jumping without the use of massive jump jets which cause heat build up and are limited to about 150 meters distance and agility/coordination is a lot more limited.
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Offline StarSlayer

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* StarSlayer reads last few pages

... I hate you guys :P
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Offline Spoon

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Quote
Don't bull**** me son, I'm not an idiot who believes anything linked on Wikipedia.
Uh okay
Quote
Go over there and count that ****.
But you just said...
Quote
Tell me that manga demands the same level of intellectual rigor as writing a game book with a straight face; tell me that there's not more information on the basic workings of a world in one gamebook then an entire manga series with a straight face.
Different methods of story telling. Instead of spending a whole page describing that a mech shoots a laser and hits an other mech, its drawn in a pretty picture for you. The manga Mobile Suit Gundam: The Origin for example, has 23 volumes each containing between 200-270 pages. That's 5405 pages if you take the average of 235*23. I can tell you with a straight face that if done right, an entire manga series can definitely contain as much information as whatever.

Quote
(66 UC Gundam manga and novels by my count, including the stuff of dubious relation and canonicity like G-Savior.)
Check this Wikipedia link: Novels only. No gamebooks. No sourcebooks. That's over 100. Count 'em.
66, 100. Both are large numbers for franchises about giant robots shooting lasers. As I said, its a similar amount. The link for the Gundam manga/novel list doesn't have the large amount of technical readouts and whatnot listed either. http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/entertainmentbible01.html stuff like this. And if we're to compare videogames then http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Gundam_video_games it wouldn't even be fair (I will be the first to admit that the vast vast majority of gundam games are bad though)
But this is getting really silly and this was something I thought you were above NGTM-1R. I really don't feel in engaging anymore in this fanboy level of 'e-peen comparison'. If you are so absolutely hell bent on maintaining the believe that 'battletech is bettar and larger, it has moar stuffs!' then whatever. I'll leave you to it. I will just continue enjoying both universes for what they are. Either way both universes have way too much stuff for me to read. Be it 66 or 100, I won't be reading half of it.

Quote
I don't really know how you can get more direct than that.

Wait, I do.

They are the same thing.

Let me spell it out for you: plausibility is both created by adding detail to a work on its own, which makes it more closely resemble a reality (because reality is really damn detailed) and created by explaining how things within a work themselves function, which is often necessary while expanding the work. Literary (for lack of a better term) mediums are better at this than visual ones.
Where do I even begin. Are you seriously saying this with a straight face? That just adding whatever detail makes something more plausibile? That the word plausible somehow equals developed? English is not my first language but I'm pretty sure you are doing something wrong here. Plausibility doesnt mean what you think it means.
Quote from: dictionary
plausibility:
having an appearance of truth or reason; seemingly worthy of approval or acceptance; credible; believable: a plausible excuse; a plausible plot.
According to you... adding *anything* to the universe makes it more plausible? Explaining how something works, even if it doesn't make sense makes the work as a whole more credible? See, what you are saying to me doesn't seem very.... plausible  :p
Take the Babylon 5 movie, Legend of the Rangers for example. Does this movie make the Babylon 5 universe more plausible, believable and more 'real' by adding in a bunch of really silly things to the universe? By your definition it apparantly does.
I for one don't think the sudden rise of the word of blake with the complete blackout of the universe was in any form plausibile. It made me go "Uuuuh, what? Really? Suddenly some group of jihad dudes pop up out of nowhere with this big army and they sabotage the communications of the whole ****ing inner sphere? That doesn't seem very realistic or believable to me" But according to you, this universe shaking event adds more credibility to the work?
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline LordMelvin

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er guys can we calm down?

So, I'm kind of looking forward to this game a little bit. I think it may be a fun game, and I look forward to causing explosions in other mechs' faces.


stop shouting at each other please.
Error: ls.rnd.sig.txt not found

 

Offline Polpolion

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But this is getting really silly and this was something I thought you were above NGTM-1R. I really don't feel in engaging anymore in this fanboy level of 'e-peen comparison'. If you are so absolutely hell bent on maintaining the believe that 'battletech is bettar and larger, it has moar stuffs!' then whatever. I'll leave you to it. I will just continue enjoying both universes for what they are. Either way both universes have way too much stuff for me to read. Be it 66 or 100, I won't be reading half of it.

Jesus ****ing christ since when was NGTM-1R trying to prove that Battletech was better than Gundam? This entire discussion happened because you got miffed that people didn't like Gundam's physics and since 1) you're the one claiming Gundam is at least as plausible as Battletech and 2) this is a Mechwarrior Online thread the burden of proof is on you to show that Gundam is whatever you want us to think it is, not us. So stop nit-picking perfectly reasonable points and tell us something that, you know, actually helps your argument.

 

Offline Spoon

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er guys can we calm down?
This applies to you Polpolion. What are you getting all upset for?

Quote
since when was NGTM-1R trying to prove that Battletech was better than Gundam?
He was trying to prove that Battletech is more plausible than Gundam, his only argument for this so far is that more novels/books/whatever somehow equals more plausibility for a universe. Which makes no sense and isnt what plausibility is about.

Quote
So stop nit-picking perfectly reasonable points and tell us something that, you know, actually helps your argument.
Really? Not even trying anymore huh?
Urutorahappī!!

[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline headdie

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er guys can we calm down?
This applies to you Polpolion. What are you getting all upset for?
guys is plural spoon, I was referring to to both sides.  End of the day you are arguing over the merits of 2 fictional settings like it actually matters and it's clear neither of you are going to convince the other so can you both agree to disagree before the mods and admins take action?
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Offline Scotty

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He was trying to prove that Battletech is more plausible than Gundam, his only argument for this so far is that more novels/books/whatever somehow equals more plausibility for a universe. Which makes no sense and isnt what plausibility is about.

If you were listening, he pointed out only a number of novels.  The number of sourcebooks, objectives books, technical readouts, era reports, historicals, and half a dozen others that I don't really care to name at the moment exceeds 300.  Sourcebooks by definition flesh out and lend plausibility to the setting.  The Objectives series in particular is a wonderful point to bring up, because it actually documents and gives a brief description of all major production sites, what they produce, how much of it they produce, and where they send it.  That's just one part of the flood of BT background and information.

BattleTech has a well explained economy; socio-political balance of power; and spatial geography; and, probably most importantly, well-defined and internally consistant behavior and physics.  I fail to see how Gundam can even compete on the grounds of plausible explanation.

 

Offline FireSpawn

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So, going back to MWO....
....
....
 :sigh:
I've got nothin'. Someone help me out here!
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Offline Al-Rik

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to put oil into the Flames  ;7 I'm thinking Heavy Gear from "Dreampod 9" is most realistic Mecha Game ;)
Heavy Gear 2 on the PC wasn't also bad.

The Battletech  Background has the benefit of being build on a game, and the game rules strictly tells what's possible and what's impossible.
So it's not possible to doge the enemy's fire, but running at full speed and using the cover of trees or buildings would reduce hits.
Also most of the units are build with construction rules, and while they are not perfect they are good enough.

But compared to the rules of Heavy Gear or even Car Wars ( pre dating Battletech ) the rules aren't really great.
Heavy Gear for example incorporates ECM and Sensors in the Basic Rules, Car Wars limits the weight and the internal space for weapons.

Battletech doesn't care about sensors until you play with hidden units and every reactor takes the same space inside of the mech, regardless of the tonnage.
( Additional Level 3 rules cover that, but they have never been incorporated in the basic game ).
FASA was always reluctant about reworking the whole rules.

 

Offline headdie

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So, going back to MWO....
....
....
 :sigh:
I've got nothin'. Someone help me out here!

there seems to be a bust up on the forum about if the founders mechs got an XP bonus according to the advertising literature that has has since been pulled or if the complaining member(s) just miss read the fact that legendary accounts get 3 months premium membership thus an XP and C-Bill bonus across their account
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Offline Spoon

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guys is plural spoon, I was referring to to both sides.  End of the day you are arguing over the merits of 2 fictional settings like it actually matters and it's clear neither of you are going to convince the other so can you both agree to disagree before the mods and admins take action?
I'm as calm as I can be, I'm merely trying to hold a discussion. I'm not the one suddenly breaking out in swearing when contributing nothing to the discussion itself. As long as everyone can remain civil there should be no reason for a mod to step in, no?

If you were listening, he pointed out only a number of novels.
That's indeed all he did. Point out the number of stuff and say that this equals plausibility.

The number of sourcebooks, objectives books, technical readouts, era reports, historicals, and half a dozen others that I don't really care to name at the moment exceeds 300.  Sourcebooks by definition flesh out and lend plausibility to the setting.  The Objectives series in particular is a wonderful point to bring up, because it actually documents and gives a brief description of all major production sites, what they produce, how much of it they produce, and where they send it.  That's just one part of the flood of BT background and information.

BattleTech has a well explained economy; socio-political balance of power; and spatial geography;

Aright, fair enough.

and, probably most importantly, well-defined and internally consistant behavior and physics
I'll grant that Gundam can be shaky in that department. But this is of course mostly because of the different animator teams behind each show and the many years inbetween said shows. I could of course point out that the battletech cartoon did some very very lulzy things with the physics in battletech, but that would just be a low blow.  :p
In any case in this department its comparing apples to oranges. Because battletech has close to nothing in the animated tv show department

 

I fail to see how Gundam can even compete on the grounds of plausible explanation.

You fail to see because you are not looking. Taking UC and the one year war, there is plenty of stuff around that details how the politics between zeon, the federation and the colonies revolved and production centers and whatever you just named. (The game Giren's Greed has a truck load of data in it) Both are credible settngs if you can accept the magitech that drives them. Just because there is more of battletech (more factions, thousands of planets) doesn't make the setting more credible than gundam. If anything, gundam is closer to home as it pretty much never leaves this solar system.

I'm just gonna sum up this converstation in a silly matter. "This setting with flying pigs is more believable and realistic than this setting with flying hogs because it has more books detailing how and why the pigs fly"
"Yeah well, the flying hogs also have a bunch of books detailing why the hogs can do **** in the air"
"Flying hogs break my suspension of disbelief, flying pigs are more plausible!"
"But either way, we're talking about flying pigs and hogs. None of which are remotely believable when you apply realism to it."
"Doesn't matter, my flying pig setting has books greatly detailing how and where the flying pigs are bred, thus its more plausible."

to put oil into the Flames  ;7 I'm thinking Heavy Gear from "Dreampod 9" is most realistic Mecha Game ;)
Heavy Gear 2 on the PC wasn't also bad.
I fondly recall playing the demo of one of the two Heavy gear games. After leaving the starting point I ran into some infantry. Said infantry somehow managed to one shot kill my gear by hitting my cockpit or something... with small arms fire.  :p
T'was a fun setting though, just a little hard to get much info about it. Not nearly as well documented as Battletech or whatever. My greatest exposure to it was some cgi/cartoon that was running on tv here. I've tried to track it down on the internet but unforuntately found nothing.
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[02:42] <@Axem> spoon somethings wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> critically wrong
[02:42] <@Axem> im happy with these missions now
[02:44] <@Axem> well
[02:44] <@Axem> with 2 of them

 

Offline The E

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The thing with the Somerset Strikers show is that it exists in-Universe. As in, it's treated as a bad cartoon series in the BT universe itself.
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Offline Scotty

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It really is.  It's an amusing bit of meta-humor.  I've heard some people discussing that the majority of the actual novels themselves are dramatic tri-vids (movies).  It's a completely non-canon supposition, but it was pretty humorous for the duration of the discussion.

And I'd liken the plausibility difference to "This pig has vestigial wings that allow it to glide in a limited sense, or at the very least not crash into the ground at terminal velocity" versus "this pig mother****ing flies, *****es!"