Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - FS2 Required => FreeSpace Conversion => Silent Threat: Reborn => Topic started by: Mobius on June 19, 2009, 06:24:45 pm
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I played through ST:R again. Playing a campaign again after a few months is relaxing. :)
Well, here's the thing. In the original Silent Threat, the GTI was incredibly incompetent. They botched the coverup twice, and they deployed the Hades to act essentially as a sitting duck. This doesn't make for a terribly good story, considering that the GTI is supposed to be formed from the best and the brightest of the GTA.
So in ST:R we tried to make the GTI not only competent, but ahead of the player by several steps. Over the course of the campaign, in three places the GTI nearly wins outright. The only reasons they are prevented from doing so are bad timing in the first two instances, and the GTA rolling a miraculous save in the third. None of these can fairly be blamed on the GTI.
The EMP burst is one of those places where the GTI nearly wins. I decided that leaving the course of action up to the player would be a good way to communicate the precariousness and gravity of the situation.
I really have to disagree here.
After the second playthough, I'm more than convinced of the fact that GTI forces looked like a bunch of mindless sheep. They do have cutting edge technologies and certain tactical advantages, but seeing how they send waves and waves of combat spacecraft that end up being shot down does not really boost that effect. The most notable GTI pilot was(were?) the bomber pilot(s?) flying Sneak 1, but it was the tactical situation (and not the pilot(s)) that made Sneak 1 notable. FreeSpace tends to the arcade genre, but it has the tools to turn single wings into fearsome opponents without altering tables, hitpoints, AI classes, etc. etc. In INF SCP, for example, I tried to implement tactics that make the Earth Alliance look like a truly fearsome enemy. The intent is leading the player to think "What am I supposed to do here? It's impossible to stop them in time!". The same principle may have been applied to ST:R's GTI.
From a universe perspective, the GTI seems to be a power of tremendous importance... but when it comes to FREDding, the GTI's advantages (IMO) seems the result of luck and/or someone else's work or fault. There are no notable GTI pilots talking with GTA loyalists and showing their point of views. The GTI had access to GTA comm channels, thus making contacts possible. The officer aboard the Jotunheim did, in fact, contact the GTA pilots that were striking the installation - some veterans defected and jumped out. It would have been nice and plausible to see GTI pilots sending transmissions to GTA ones. That didn't happen, and I felt like I was fighting the Shivans.
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I think your personal resentment is showing, Mobius. I thought the Jotunheim contact was a gorgeous touch that accomplished everything you'd desire.
Combat pilots don't talk to each other during combat. If you listen to actual ACM flight recordings, you'll hear a lot of grunting, a lot of panicked (very emotional) chatter, but no one preaching to the other side.
Inter-pilot chatter like that would have been, dare I say, arcadey.
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I concur with Battuta.
Generally, when you're in the midst of a dogfight with an enemy, you don't try to chat with him. You try to blow him up. Jotunheim was amazing, and that conversation was plausible. Why? Because only one side had to worry about flying, Jotunheim couldn't do much more than sit there and get shot, so they had a lot less to concentrate on, and they could handle having a conversation.
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During the combat might have been a bit exaggerated... but before? Also, don't forget that many potential defectors were fighting for the GTA during the rebellion. Every GTA officer was a potential defector.
Even GTI Aces would have improved the whole campaign. In that case, messages wouldn't have been necessary - knowing that your adversary is a top notch pilot is well enough.
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Sounds like you wanted to play Ace Combat.
The fact that others don't share your vision of Freespace is not a general flaw in ST:R. Particularly so given that ST:R made an effort to hew close to the spirit and mission design of the Freespace retail campaigns. The existence of trumped-up, easily identifiable aces in an otherwise naturalistic combat setting would have violated a lot of that atmosphere.
Why don't you play the campaign on Insane if you want to fly against well-trained opponents?
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Sounds like you wanted to play Ace Combat.
Which happens to be Mobius' favourite game (or one of them) He's alluded to that fact on many occasions.
Oh wait. This ain't Ace Combat.
Mobius, why don't you change these things for yourself instead of trying to get the whole release changed?
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Sounds like you wanted to play Ace Combat.
The fact that others don't share your vision of Freespace is not a general flaw in ST:R. Particularly so given that ST:R made an effort to hew close to the spirit and mission design of the Freespace retail campaigns. The existence of trumped-up, easily identifiable aces in an otherwise naturalistic combat setting would have violated a lot of that atmosphere.
Why don't you play the campaign on Insane if you want to fly against well-trained opponents?
I'm voicing my opinion, and I have all the right to do it. I wrote a comment as player and FREDder, so you could at least try to discuss it normally.
What if, instead of aces, I said "good pilots"? Your reference to Ace Combat wouldn't work.
Which happens to be Mobius' favourite game (or one of them) He's alluded to that fact on many occasions.
Oh wait. This ain't Ace Combat.
Mobius, why don't you change these things for yourself instead of trying to get the whole release changed?
Excuse me? Ace Combat has nothing to do with this.
EDIT: My comment went well beyond the management of possible hostile characters. It may be the case of discussing my comment as a whole, without focusing on the parts whose analysis is so much convenient for you.
Handling wings so that they can employ good tactics a) has nothing to do with Ace Combat and b) is more than possible in FreeSpace. I mentioned INF SCP's EA as an example I have personally worked on - no messages come out from EA pilots. I'd be glad if you stopped misenterpreting my posts and my points of view on purpose.
I said that GTI wings were handled pretty much like Shivan wings. I also said that, despite the GTI's supposed advantages, I did not "feel" them (if you get what I mean). That's my opinion, and I'm voicing it. I'm not pretending any changes, it's your interpretation of my posts that turns me into the guy who pretends everyone to change things to more adequately match his needs.
If you don't want me to voice my opinion, let me know.
EDIT2: Since it's become pretty clear that Mobius cannot voice his opinion without giving the impression of proposing policies, changes and stuff like that... continue the discussion without him.
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EDIT2: Since it's become pretty clear that Mobius cannot voice his opinion without giving the impression of proposing policies, changes and stuff like that... continue the discussion without him.[/color]
We can't because Mobius can't stand anyone disagreeing with him. :rolleyes:
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You definitely do need to work on your presentation, Mobius. And keep in mind the fact that your past behavior weights on people's present judgments of you.
But it's not like we think you don't have anything valuable to say.
In any case, I think ST:R's presentation of hostile wings was exactly in line with the two retail Freespace campaigns, and ST:R was definitely intended to maintain the spirit of retail. Which is why I believe Mobius' complaint is invalid.
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In any case, I think ST:R's presentation of hostile wings was exactly in line with the two retail Freespace campaigns, and ST:R was definitely intended to maintain the spirit of retail. Which is why I believe Mobius' complaint is invalid.
You're misenterpreting my points of view on purpose. Again.
Goober claimed that the GTI was about to win more than once. He also claimed that it had certain advantages all over the rebellion. Giving the way GTI wings have been handled, I did not have the same consideration. That's my opinion, and I'm voicing it.
No one ever said that FS2's NTF, for example, had so many advantages over the GTVA - the NTF was, in fact, outsmarted, outnumbered and outgunned: NTF wings fell to GTVA ones easily for many, obvious reasons. IMO, citing the classic FreeSpace style is threadbare (in this case).
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In any case, I think ST:R's presentation of hostile wings was exactly in line with the two retail Freespace campaigns, and ST:R was definitely intended to maintain the spirit of retail. Which is why I believe Mobius' complaint is invalid.
You're misenterpreting my points of view on purpose. Again.
No one is misinterpreting your points of view on purpose.
Take a few moments to calm down and clarify your thoughts. I rarely understand what you're getting agitated about.
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In any case, I think ST:R's presentation of hostile wings was exactly in line with the two retail Freespace campaigns, and ST:R was definitely intended to maintain the spirit of retail. Which is why I believe Mobius' complaint is invalid.
You're misenterpreting my points of view on purpose. Again.
Goober claimed that the GTI was about to win more than once. He also claimed that it had certain advantages all over the rebellion. Giving the way GTI wings have been handled, I did not have the same consideration. That's my opinion, and I'm voicing it.
No one ever said that FS2's NTF, for example, had so many advantages over the GTVA - the NTF was, in fact, outsmarted, outnumbered and outgunned: NTF wings fell to GTVA ones easily for many, obvious reasons. IMO, citing the classic FreeSpace style is threadbare (in this case).
Base canard; the quality of the GTI's men at the point of fire does not equate to the quality of their war effort or their commanders. Russian efforts during WW2 are the classic example, but Japan also offers an illuminating parallel as well; the IJN was composed of highly capable, highly trained, hard-fighting, and frequently victorious men that were very poorly led and ultimately doomed.
Goober's assertion is that GTI's higher commanders behave in a much more capable, rational manner in this campaign and therefore come much closer to winning. You've failed to challenge this assertion in any meaningful way or prove it wrong.
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No one is misinterpreting your points of view on purpose.
Take a few moments to calm down and clarify your thoughts. I rarely understand what you're getting agitated about.
I'd like you to reply to the content of my posts by providing proof to prove me wrong. You discuss the person, not his posts, and come out with comments like "calm down", "why are you so agitated?" and other emotive stuff that has nothing to do with the threads you post on.
Goober's assertion is that GTI's higher commanders behave in a much more capable, rational manner in this campaign and therefore come much closer to winning. You've failed to challenge this assertion in any meaningful way or prove it wrong.
Am I wrong or GTI pilots are supposed to be the best ones? Their characteristics haven't been exploited.
I know for sure that FreeSpace is a space sim tending to the arcade style, but there are many ways to boost the effectiveness of enemy pilots. If you take a look at ST:R's mission files, you'd notice that the AI level of GTI spacecraft hasn't been changed.
ST:R isn't awful. I agree on claiming that this campaign is one of the best, but IMO it may have been better thanks to a different management of GTI wings. That's it, that's my opinion. You can trash it, but you surely can't prevent me from posting it.
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No one's trying to prevent you from posting it.
I've already addressed the substantive content of your posts. You either didn't read my post or somehow misinterpreted it. I'll quote it again for you to save you the trouble of scrolling up:
You definitely do need to work on your presentation, Mobius. And keep in mind the fact that your past behavior weights on people's present judgments of you.
But it's not like we think you don't have anything valuable to say.
In any case, I think ST:R's presentation of hostile wings was exactly in line with the two retail Freespace campaigns, and ST:R was definitely intended to maintain the spirit of retail. Which is why I believe Mobius' complaint is invalid.
Sounds like you wanted to play Ace Combat.
The fact that others don't share your vision of Freespace is not a general flaw in ST:R. Particularly so given that ST:R made an effort to hew close to the spirit and mission design of the Freespace retail campaigns. The existence of trumped-up, easily identifiable aces in an otherwise naturalistic combat setting would have violated a lot of that atmosphere.
Why don't you play the campaign on Insane if you want to fly against well-trained opponents?
I have no idea why you think there are no well-trained GTI pilots in Silent Threat Reborn. Just turn the difficulty up to the near-realistic setting (Insane) with minimal stat buffs for the player, and you'll get your ass handed to you time and again.
Until you finish the campaign on Insane, you're just going to sound silly.
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What does that mean?
Good pilot management is something that you can represent in every single difficulty level. Boosting the difficulty level up to Insane changes several parameters, like multipliers (effectively making the game harder) - but other than that, it does nothing.
EDIT: What I'm saying here is that, IMO, ST:R was poor in the "describe your opponents" compartment. I haven't read any messages that made me feel frightened, worried, under pressure, etc. etc. due to the fact that I was fighting the best pilots of the GTI (and, consequently, of the GTA). That's it, raw difficulty has nothing to do with this.
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Well, that's not a bad point.
However, I think the EMP trick, as well as the general quality of the GTI tactical operations, convinced me they were worthy opponents.
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I have never complained about those, really. :)
I liked those tricks (I'd call them strategies, though) - it was just the way wings were managed that deluded me a bit.
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I wanted to make the point though, that the wing management is probably just fine and completely realistic. It's just that the difficulty settings supply some very favorable buffs to the player. Turn it up to Insane and a lot of those buffs are gone, and the hostile AI may seem more formidable.
Take a look at 'Return to Ross 128', for instance. Try that on Insane!
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Or try to get all objectives in "Chasing Shadows". Even on Medium, it's quite difficult.
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I wanted to make the point though, that the wing management is probably just fine and completely realistic. It's just that the difficulty settings supply some very favorable buffs to the player. Turn it up to Insane and a lot of those buffs are gone, and the hostile AI may seem more formidable.
Well, setting several waves of the same wing is not that :v:-ish. Also, the lack of related messages is a problem a higher difficulty level can fix, really...
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Not a problem?
I just don't see why disciplined GTI pilots would ever break comms discipline or jeopardize brevity.
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Well, there are no messages coming from the player's side. The player and his squadron were pretty much facing who could be easily dubbed as their old colleagues, and there's no mention of that. That's FS-ish, no doubt about that, but concepts use to evolve.
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Can I just ask what you're actually trying to achieve with this discussion?
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What do you mean? Well, I'm trying to say that although ST:R is great under most points of view, it deluded me a bit because I did not "feel" the power of the opposing GTI wings seen in the campaign. I would have appreciated more in-mission messages related to hostile wings. I'm not imposing anything.
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What do you mean? Well, I'm trying to say that although ST:R is great under most points of view, it deluded me a bit because I did not "feel" the power of the opposing GTI wings seen in the campaign. I would have appreciated more in-mission messages related to hostile wings. I'm not imposing anything.
You mean your wingman ( the players wingman ) are supposed to talk about enemy wings?
Hm, to make one enemy ace wing "scare the ****" out of the player ( <-- extreme case- or something similar to that ), you have to build up their reputation during the campaign, but this could in case of ST:R "distract" from the threat that the Hades or the GTI itself poses, if done improperly ( and by no means i'm implying that the team couldn't get this done if they wanted ).
I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, but that it's difficult to achieve, 'cause you have to, either put a lot of chatter about those aces into most missions/ briefings or give this enemy wing more "screentime".
I doubt it's worth the effort to tear apart the already finished campaign to add some messages about enemy aces. I never had the feeling the GTI deployes wimps, but i also never had the feeling they are sending "Starbucks" into battle.
The threat came from the strategical/ tactical advantage they had, and this feeling was transported.
I'd like to see something like that in other campaigns, though.
Just my two cents.
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I see.
Well, doing things a la FreeSpace really helped ST:R getting closer to the main campaigns, but since ST:R is not a pure upgrade things might have been managed in a different way. Many well praised fan-made campaigns became famous and popular thanks to their different and particular styles.
It's also true that concepts evolve... the good old FS feeling may be out of date nowadays, as FRED allows campaign designers to come out with more interesting stuff. :)
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So what exactly is your point?
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He seems to have 2:
1. GTI pilots aren't good enough.
As has been mentioned, he should play on insane. However, if he wants a plot explanation, how's this: Since GTA pilots are defecting to GTI, we can assume that many GTI pilots would defect back to GTA. This means that we'd have a bit more scattering of good and bad pilots, so that the GTI wouldn't exactly be as elite as they are during the Capella era.
2. GTI pilots don't talk enough.
Last I checked, pilots aren't allowed to talk to opponents, even when they're fighting old friends or are trying to convert enemies. You get court-martialed for that regardless of what you manage to accomplish.
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No, the GTI didn't talk a lot, but when they did, it did its job.
If you're looking for the general character of GTI pilot you were going up against, I'd look no further than the Ransom-voiced pilots in Mission 3 and the EMP mission. If you didn't get the idea that you're going up against obedient, well-trained pilots in possession of technology more advanced than yours, then I think you missed the whole point.
Additionally, the GTI doesn't talk a lot ingame for a good reason. An easy way to build intelligence on an enemy force and gain an enormous advantage is by simply knowing which channels enemy forces communicate on. The easiest way to give this information out is to simply speak to your opponent. Once your opponent knows you can operate on that channel, it doesn't take long for them to figure out what others you operate on. Once that's all understood, everything from fighter launches, strategic maneuvers, and deployments are all available for your enemy to listen to.
Now, maybe on Hercs and other fighters used by both GTI and GTA, this is less of an issue...GTA already knows what those craft are capable of. But having Lokis and Zeus bombers give away their comms strips away the GTI's advantage.
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That sounds like a good point, but I'm tending to imagine that by this far into the future, messages can be encrypted so well that it doesn't matter at all whether you know the enemy's communication frequencies.
(Note: in all SOC arcs, you always use an encoder/decoder device to talk to your contact/Snipes)
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Its probably worth pointing out that these guys are Intelligence. It's a slightly different situation then say splitting up the Air Wing on an aircraft carrier where everybody knows each other. These chaps were probably segregated from the rest of the regular Navy conducting black ops that remain classified for 100 years freedom of information act be damned. Regular Navy might know they are Bad Mother Frakers but its not like the GTI has been writing up their pilots' names and kill scores in the GTA Navy Gazette.
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Once that's all understood, everything from fighter launches, strategic maneuvers, and deployments are all available for your enemy to listen to.
Misconception. By the timeframe FS occurs in, traffic analysis will probably survive but cryptanalysis is going to be a dead art. All communications will be encoded using effectively random systems and therefore be unbreakable.
Honestly, this is a situation that will probably develop within our lifetimes as digital encryption advances.
(ETAK being the great exception, since the Shivans either don't encrypt or do it poorly; they have no spoken speech after all.)
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True...I guess I'm spoiled dealing with less-capable militaries' comms that I didn't take the encryption into account.
At least it sounded cool and somewhat authentic.:p