[Phantom Hoover]

Bukkit's downloads page has been successfully taken down through the DMCA by means of a claim made by a former developer that the distribution violates the terms of the GPL. Clearly the licence issue is valid.

[Scourge of Ages]

In pure monetary terms, Mojang and Minecraft are not worth 2.5 billion. Mojang itself is a development house that has had one incredible hit, and no followup that came even close to its success. The revenue from continued Minecraft sales, while considerable, will not pay off 2.5 billion USD anytime soon.

But, Minecraft has an incredible install base. Having access to them is worth a lot. Then there's the, for lack of a better term, cultural aspects of this. Minecraft is one of THE entry drugs into gaming. Being associated with that is certainly not a bad thing, from a marketing perspective.

I'm reminded of the move Charles Foster Kane used to corner the newspaper market... the competition had put together the best damned news team money could buy... how could CFK possibly compete with that? So what does CFK do? He buys it.

Buy him out, boys!

[Scotty]

I haven't misinterpreted anything,
I simply don't believe that hiring people and paying them a salary is treating them in an unethical manner.
Similarly I don't believe that any company has a moral obligation to support a team of modders or independent developers which have taken it upon themselves to improve someone else's product. Particularly if the aims of those independent developers is in conflict with the companies own goals and projects.

Morals are not ethics.  What PH is saying is that when Mojang pseudo-partnered with Bukkit in order to provide an actual modding interface for the game, and then subsequently headhunted away the best Bukkit devs, afterward throwing the rest of Bukkit under the bus and letting the entire project wither on the vine, that was the unethical part.

And it really kinda is.

[Akalabeth Angel]

I haven't misinterpreted anything,
I simply don't believe that hiring people and paying them a salary is treating them in an unethical manner.
Similarly I don't believe that any company has a moral obligation to support a team of modders or independent developers which have taken it upon themselves to improve someone else's product. Particularly if the aims of those independent developers is in conflict with the companies own goals and projects.

Morals are not ethics.  What PH is saying is that when Mojang pseudo-partnered with Bukkit in order to provide an actual modding interface for the game, and then subsequently headhunted away the best Bukkit devs, afterward throwing the rest of Bukkit under the bus and letting the entire project wither on the vine, that was the unethical part.

And it really kinda is.

Uh, Ethics is moral philosophy.
To say that ethics are not morals is to say that you don't understand ethics. At all.

[Scotty]

To say that ethics are morals is to damn every defense lawyer who ever lived.  Try again.  The two are similar but distinct concepts.

[Akalabeth Angel]

To say that ethics are morals is to damn every defense lawyer who ever lived.  Try again.  The two are similar but distinct concepts.

I never said ethics are morals. I said ethics is moral philosophy.
Business ethics
Legal ethics.
etcetera

are all applied ethics

or "Applied ethics is the philosophical examination, from a moral standpoint, of particular issues in private and public life that are matters of moral judgment."

Look it up
https://www.google.ca/#q=ethics

[Scotty]

To say that ethics are not morals is to say that you don't understand ethics. At all.

Yeah, you pretty ****ing clearly said exactly that.  Emphasis mine.  I'll wait for you to start discussing in good faith again.

[AdmiralRalwood]

Bukkit's downloads page has been successfully taken down through the DMCA by means of a claim made by a former developer that the distribution violates the terms of the GPL. Clearly the licence issue is valid.

No, actually, it was taken down because that developer has always held the copyright on their own code. The GPL was never valid because it's always incorporated non-GPL'd code (namely, the obfuscated Minecraft source), which means it has never actually been covered by a valid GPL.

[Akalabeth Angel]

To say that ethics are not morals is to say that you don't understand ethics. At all.

Yeah, you pretty ****ing clearly said exactly that.  Emphasis mine.  I'll wait for you to start discussing in good faith again.

Nowhere in that quotation do I say "ethics are morals". Which is what you are claiming.
What I ACTUALLY said is that your claim of "ethics are not morals" is evidence that you don't understand what ethics are. But it is NOT the same as saying "ethics are morals".
You're simply failing to understand the nuance of the sentence.


Your original claim is to say that my statement that Mojang doesn't have a "moral obligation" to support so and so is incongruous, because "ethics are not morals".
However ethics is as I said the moral philosophy. The concept of morality is used to determine ethical behaviour. Or in other words, principles of morals determine what actions are ethical (right) or unethical (wrong).
So to say that Mojang didn't have a "moral obligation" is analogous to saying that the morals of the situation didn't dictate that certain (ethical) behaviour be taken to support so and so.


Like seriously, what about that situation is unethical?

It's unethical that a business didn't fufill a non-binding, non-specific agreement ?
It's unethical that some people were hired, but not others?
It's unethical that an unsolicited and unofficial project was not give official support after the fact?

Bukkit's downloads page has been successfully taken down through the DMCA by means of a claim made by a former developer that the distribution violates the terms of the GPL. Clearly the licence issue is valid.

No, actually, it was taken down because that developer has always held the copyright on their own code. The GPL was never valid because it's always incorporated non-GPL'd code (namely, the obfuscated Minecraft source), which means it has never actually been covered by a valid GPL.

. . . hence, "negate" not "violate" 

[666maslo666]

Good. I got tired of Mojang long ago. The development of Minecraft moves at a snails pace and the game looks and plays (and mods) as a perpetual beta. Maybe now things will change a bit..

[Luis Dias]

I dont think it will get any better under microsoft though.

[karajorma]

If people want to discuss whether Mojang has acted poorly towards Bukkit, carry on.

We can have the entire discussion without a stupid, pointless discussion of semantics where people try to win points based on who can show off their book lurnin' the most. If I see it again, there will be consequences.

[Akalabeth Angel]

I dont think it will get any better under microsoft though.

I think it goes to reason that at the very least the xbox 360 + xbox one version will improve.

[Luis Dias]

Well if by improvement you mean that a ****ton of DLCs will be available for it in the store, then I guess so.

In fairness, I can totally see minecraft being improved in the xbone. Mods show that it is perfectly possible to create great visual improvements without sacrificing its feel...

[Akalabeth Angel]

Well if by improvement you mean that a ****ton of DLCs will be available for it in the store, then I guess so.

**** ton of DLC? Based on what examples?
Other 1st party microsoft titles like Halo and Gears of War don't have a **** ton of DLC, they have a few map packs or expansions and that's about it.

Microsoft could sell DLC on any platform. But they could make the xbox version the premiere console experience to sell the Xbox One. This means giving it features or perhaps free content that is not available on the PS4.

[Phantom Hoover]

In fairness, I can totally see minecraft being improved in the xbone. Mods show that it is perfectly possible to create great visual improvements without sacrificing its feel...

That picture sacrifices Minecraft's feel so brutally you'd need a large stepped pyramid and a steady supply of obsidian to recreate it. I really do not understand the number of people who think Minecraft is somehow inferior for not being photorealistic.

[Luis Dias]

Well I guess my sensitivity is really at odds with yours. That's fine too, but I guess it poses a problem: will microsoft be conservative regarding minecraft or will they change it? Will they maintain it in a very conservative way so as to appease everyone's sensitivity of what is to maintain its "feel", and will then they perhaps build a minecraft 2.0 with more profound changes, be them visual or content-wise (a lot of more procedural content would be nice)?

Perhaps not even calling it "minecraft 2.0" so as not to piss off minecraft users.

[Phantom Hoover]

Well they won't be calling it Minecraft 2.0 because Mojang sold Minecraft alpha with the promise that all future versions of the game would be included in the purchase, and that has proven dangerously vague already.

[Luis Dias]

It's the BetterCraft then. (**** I googled this just now and of course it already exists ****ing hell)

[Phantom Hoover]

Bukkit's downloads page has been successfully taken down through the DMCA by means of a claim made by a former developer that the distribution violates the terms of the GPL. Clearly the licence issue is valid.

No, actually, it was taken down because that developer has always held the copyright on their own code. The GPL was never valid because it's always incorporated non-GPL'd code (namely, the obfuscated Minecraft source), which means it has never actually been covered by a valid GPL.

The process you're describing is precisely a violation of the licence. That's what it means in the first place, there's no 'actually' about it. You violate the terms of the licence, it no longer covers you, and so you have no right to use the work. All this pedantry has been completely meaningless.