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General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Marcov on October 14, 2009, 08:31:14 am

Title: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Marcov on October 14, 2009, 08:31:14 am
So far, I've come up with puzzling questions in my mind regarding Freespace realistics and statistics, and why or how did certain things happen. Some of these:

1. The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??
2. The Rakshasa is obviously longer and larger than a Cain, and how come it's fragile?
3. Why didn't the GTVA give a valid classification for the Colossus?
4. Why did the Shivans detonate the Capella star, probably resulting in the destruction of their Sath fleet?
5. How was the Colossus built in a span of 20 years? Given this data, an Orion destroyer probably requires 3 years to construct. Where did the Terrans get the technology to build alot ofOrions?
6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?
7. Why aren't there any beams mounted on the Arcadia?
8. According to Freespace Wiki veterans, the Orion simply outwits the Hecate. How can this be? And why should the GTVA build a giant for an anti-fighter ship, when the Aelous is already a monster to fighters?
9. Why do Freespace fighters run only to the speed of a Sports Car?
10. Afterburners? If you afterburner your fighter, then it should remain that speed, since there is sparse if not no friction in space.
11. In the Fall of Vasuda Prime cutscene, it shows the Lucifer shooting a blue beam from its side. Why the heck isn't this beam in-game?
12. If they could use an invincible shielding for the Lucifer, then why can't they apply it to a Sathanas?
13. Why do they put extremely large radar dishes, probably 100 feet in diameter, to capitals? Do they need a massive range of detecting?
14. Why didn't Volition give a name for Command? Or maybe, if you're a Vasudan, Command becomes a Vasudan. If you're under the Aquitaine, then Command should be Petrarch..
15. What's the use of the Shivan Comm Node (that machine with rotating blades)?
16. Heavy missiles like the Cyclops or the Helios are even slower than a Sports car, while modern-day missiles travel sound-fast. Why?
17. Why did Volition give the Lucifer SReds in FS2?
18. Why does the Flux Cannon graphic look some how ugly (it takes time to hit its target, and doesn't have a beam sound), while its animation in the cutscene looks extremely cool?
19. What did Bosch do after he escapes in an Azrael? Was he just killed by Shivans?  :lol:
20. Why can't Shivans speak to the GTVA?

Feel free to ask any further questions here.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Narwhal on October 14, 2009, 08:49:44 am
1. The Ravanna may have a higher ARMOR/SYSTEM ratio. The Lucifer might be better designed. To give a RL example, a French WWII Char 2C is much heavier (70 tons) than a Somua S-35 (20 tons), but has MUCH less armor. Why ? The Char 2C is an horrible WWI design.

2. See 1.

3. Probably it did, but maybe since it was the only one in its category, everyone said "the Colossus".

4. Who knows

5. It is possible that most of Terran industrial capacity was on Sol. The 20 years can also include the prototypes, test period, ...

6. Well, maybe it was another prototype GTA or GTI design, unique, that he stole during the rebellion.

7. They are supposed to be away from the front. Maybe given the cost of beams and the number of FS1 ship to refit, Acadia modernising was seen as low priority.

8. Industrial ****-ups. It happens, a lot. Why did the German carried on producing Tiger when the Panther was so much superior on the front (not theorically, though, but on the front it was clearly seen as much more practical).

9. Because the schlebonium inside it works that way. (That's the way I rationalised).

10. See 9.

11. Always forget the cutscenes, they were made by another firm.

12. Too big. Maybe the cost of a shield growth exponiantially compared to the side of what carries it. Good enough for a fighter, but not anything bigger. They had one on ONE ship, but then decided to stop the cost.

13. Well... in space I would say yes.

14. Well, I don't see the problem with that.

15. Mystery.

16. See 9.

17. No Lucifer anyway, so they did not bother.

18. See 11

19. Mystery.

20. They don't want to. Do you speak to your flu ?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: The E on October 14, 2009, 09:04:02 am
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1. The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??

Because the Lucy has shields, is built as a Destroyer of Worlds, and designed to survive long enough to do its job. The Ravana, on the other hand, is just a vessel that carries around a coule fighter wings and massive Beam Cannons. It's designed to jump in, shoot the crap out of a target, and vanish again.

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2. The Rakshasa is obviously longer and larger than a Cain, and how come it's fragile?

Look at both ships closely. The Cain is a lot more solid than the Rak, the Rak looks like being barely armored at all.

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3. Why didn't the GTVA give a valid classification for the Colossus?

It did. It's the GTVA Colossus. As a one-off ship, they haven't yet gotten around to invent a new description for it (Although calling it a Dreadnought would be appropriate).

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4. Why did the Shivans detonate the Capella star, probably resulting in the destruction of their Sath fleet?

No canon answer exist. But it can be assumed that only a few Saths got toasted in there, as most of them jump out before the sun goes boom.

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5. How was the Colossus built in a span of 20 years? Given this data, an Orion destroyer probably requires 3 years to construct. Where did the Terrans get the technology to build alot of Orions?

The Colossus project was more an effort to revitalize the GTVA economy. And it took 20 years to build the technology to build the technology to build the ships. And if you look at the new Terran capships, you see design elements of the Colly in nearly all of them.

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6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?

That's what it is designed to be. By Bosch, no less. It's built to break up or through Node blockades, cause a lot of damage in a short time, and jump out again. Sort of like the Ravana.

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7. Why aren't there any beams mounted on the Arcadia?

There are a few AAA beams that are quite scary. But it doesn't have anticap weapons because it relies on other vessels to protect it.

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8. According to Freespace Wiki veterans, the Orion simply outwits the Hecate. How can this be? And why should the GTVA build a giant for an anti-fighter ship, when the Aelous is already a monster to fighters?

The Orion and the Hecate have different areas of expertise. The Orion is better at capital ship combat because of the better placement of her main batteries. The Hecate, on the other hand, is more like a Carrier, it carries a lot of fighters and a bit of anticap firepower, but it generally relies on Bombers to do the heavy killing.

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9. Why do Freespace fighters run only to the speed of a Sports Car?

Because it's FreeSpace. That's what it was designed to be.

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10. Afterburners? If you afterburner your fighter, then it should remain that speed, since there is sparse if not no friction in space.

Because Freespace does not follow the newtonian rules of inertia. It's arcadey that way.

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11. In the Fall of Vasuda Prime cutscene, it shows the Lucifer shooting a blue beam from its side. Why the heck isn't this beam in-game?

Because that's its Bombardment beam. Remember that, in FS1, it didn't use the side weapons. Also remember that the Vasuda toasting cutscene is non-canon.

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12. If they could use an invincible shielding for the Lucifer, then why can't they apply it to a Sathanas?

Ask the Shivans. But I would imagine that they determined that the Sath doesn't actually need shields, as its hull is quite massive.

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13. Why do they put extremely large radar dishes, probably 100 feet in diameter, to capitals? Do they need a massive range of detecting?

Yes. Plus, they look cool.

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14. Why didn't Volition give a name for Command? Or maybe, if you're a Vasudan, Command becomes a Vasudan. If you're under the Aquitaine, then Command should be Petrarch..

Command is more like an Air Traffic Controller on an aircraft Carrier. He doesn't actually give orders, but relays them to the pilots from the real commander (In this case, Petrarch)

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15. What's the use of the Shivan Comm Node (that machine with rotating blades)?

Ask the Shivans.

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16. Heavy missiles like the Cyclops or the Helios are even slower than a Sports car, while modern-day missiles travel sound-fast. Why?

Game balance. For the same reason that FS2 missiles do not travel very far. Ever tried to intercept a fast travelling missile?

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17. Why did Volition give the Lucifer SReds in FS2?

Ask Volition.

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18. Why does the Flux Cannon graphic look some how ugly (it takes time to hit its target, and doesn't have a beam sound), while its animation in the cutscene looks extremely cool?

Blame the Technology. There were no beam weapons in FS1 (The flux cannon was a hacked invisible missile with an extremely long trail, not a beam).

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19. What did Bosch do after he escapes in an Azrael? Was he just killed by Shivans?  :lol:

Ask Bosch.

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20. Why can't Shivans speak to the GTVA?

The first real dialogue with the Shivans was initiated by Bosch with his ETAK. Ask him how it went.

Note that several of the answers you are looking for are holes that Volition probably wanted to fill in FS3, but since that didn't happen, us fans are free to come up with the answers.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 14, 2009, 12:25:20 pm
Answer to most your questions:
"It's a game, it's not supposed to make sense it's supposed to be fun and cool"
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: headdie on October 14, 2009, 02:08:27 pm

20. Why can't Shivans speak to the GTVA?

Feel free to ask any further questions here.

there are a few canon references to the fact that Shivans use a communication method which does not translate into any human senses, and that ETAK was a means of converting GTVA communications into something the Shivans can understand as communication
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 14, 2009, 03:14:58 pm
1. Better design; better materials, denser compartmentation, more redundancy. When you start throwing around stuff like "materials cost, time to build, and ease of maintaince are no object" around, you can do really impressive stuff. Just don't expect it to be practical. The Shivans thought they beat all those concerns with the sheathe shielding system, so they'd never need to replace the Lucifer or for that matter conduct major repairs on it. Oops.
2. It's not, relatively speaking, it has significantly more hitpoints. It's just a big target with easily-targeted turrets, having crossed a threshold of size and shape at which strafing it becomes easier, and thus gives the impression of fragility with the relative ease it can be destroyed.
3. It's the Colossus. That is it's designation. What more do you want?
4. Damfino. Or anyone else for that matter.
5. Feature creep. No, seriously, feature creep. Do you have any idea how many generations of electronics would go by in 20 years? They had to redesign the fighter handling facilities at least once, probably more than once, same for ordnance and the magazine. Unless they did the sane thing and froze the design it could have stayed in development hell forever while they kept tearing bits of it out. Also, the secrecy of the construction effort would have undoubtedly slowed it down.
6. See number one. Also, 25m/s.
7. Stupidity and/or the belief in the presence of warship guards and its own fighter wings.
8. Error. Fighters were judged the weapon of decision after The Great War, the development of the beam cannon notwithstanding. The Hecate was designed to defend itself against what was believed to be the controlling threat to the detriment of its other capabilites. This proved a mistake.
9. Most people assume it's relative to a fixed object.
10. Hush you.
11. There is no such cutscene in the original game, only a CB ani. Not canonical really.
12. Expensive. And unnecessary, really, considering the sheer ability the Sathanas already has to absorb damage.
13. Yeah. This is space, remember? It's kinda big.
14. So you could hate him more, he's like the Pointy-Haired Boss. Project what you like on him.
15. Dunno. Nobody does.
16. I said hush! :P
17. :v: is not perfect either.
18. It's an old game, y'know? Also, the FS2 opening cutscene is more than a bit dubious, and the Fall of Vasuda cutscene is an addition.
19. Probably. I hear he tasted like chicken.
20. I doubt they can't. They just don't want to.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Mongoose on October 14, 2009, 08:33:15 pm
18. It's an old game, y'know? Also, the FS opening cutscene is more than a bit dubious, and the Fall of Vasuda cutscene is an addition.
I think you mean the FS2 opening cutscene, since the Lucifer didn't do much more than jump in during FS1's. :p

And just to clarify on that Fall of Vasuda cutscene, it was created by a member of the community (namely, the very talented IceyJones) to fill in for a cutscene mentioned in the original :v: FreeSpace Reference Bible that never made it into the final game, presumably for time/budget reasons.  However, it is based on a few scenes from canon command briefing animations, including the Lucifer spewing out Scorpion fighters in orbit around Vasuda Prime and transports fleeing from the destruction of a Vasudan city by a massive blue beam.  I don't believe this beam was ever shown being directly fired in the briefing animations, so that part was artistic license on the part of Icey; I'd imagine he took its positioning from FS2's intro cutscene.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 14, 2009, 08:46:17 pm
 :nervous: You saw nothing.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Tantalus53 on October 15, 2009, 09:30:24 am
1. Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology.

2. If you notice something about Shivan Ships, the more beams they have, the weaker they tend to get against fighters. (accept for the cain, whitch is just weakly plated and expendable). Perhaps the point-and-attack cruiser is meant to dish it out but not take it.

3. To signify what it meant is my opinion, and tell the society that there was just one. The GTVA collossus was the first and last of its kind. Wheras you hear GTD So-and-so, you know it was just one of many destroyers of some unimportant class throught history.

4. Most of them seemed to jump out. Theres no fact on why they did it. Think of something, make a campain about it  :D

5. Remember, Orions have been around for AGES. Perhaps the original build time was longer. But as technology progresses as it allways does, we find ways to get the same product in less time. Hence its possible for ships like the Collossus or Hades to get built in shorter times (in retrospect with Orions of old) pending on when the construction started.

6. Remember, Bosch was an X-GTI Flunkey. He has acess to alot of technology. Perhaps advanced miniturisation to be able to run that many beams off a single ship like the Iceni.

7. Arcadias were originally just trade/research/civilian installations.

8. Orion was becoming obsolete, and it didnt have much fighter capacity, as well as AAA defence. smaller vessels were getting more and more deadly, why wouldnt a design to make a warship less susceptable to a bomber raid Not fair well with Terran command? The Orion outgunns the Hecate, yes. But the Hecate has more uses im afraid.

9. Having had dealt with a bunch of physics teachers, perhaps the speed is relative. Plus, it would overwhelm most people to be traveling at how-much hundred thousand Meters per second.

10. Afterburners are for acceleration, im guessing. Get your fighter from Zero to maz in less time, and push it to structural limits.

11. A Lucy Bombardment beam was released some time ago.

12. The Sathanas didnt really need it. And im still thinking the Sathanas wasnt really meant for combat.. Its got way too many blind spots on it where any old ship can bombard it. Try Blue planet.

13. Update situation reports, give early warnings, ect. ect. We dont need to send recon flights /everywhere/

14. I see where your coming from, but, im thinking that for the aquatine, your command is coming from 3rd Fleet HQ and thats a comms officer responsible for opps on missions for that particular destroyer.

15. Send comunicacions? It must have been giving off some... quantum waves or something, and thats how ETAC goes about them speaking, so it must be like modern day comunication satelites, just on a large scale.

16. Once again, the speed may be relative.

17. Im guessing they didnt really care.

18. In the original Freespace: The great war, there were no beam cannons whatsoever. As in the engine didnt have them. Thus, the Lucifer used a 'Shivan Super Laser' witch is that little.. orangey-yellow thing we've all come to dispise for toasting the Galatea. But, Droid did a good thing with that Super Laser in Tides of Darkness and turned it into a sexy beast. Go play.

19. Cant really say.. I have my own theories.

20. I dont think its that they cant. I think they wont. They dont care enough. We were just something insegnificant that they knew they had to clean off their boots sooner or later.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Pelegrin on October 15, 2009, 02:24:09 pm
As far as we know the Shivans could have known about the Human race and the Vassudans way before we took to the stars for all we know.
The Shivans could be a very ancient race, and if that is the case then they definatetely would not like us based on our history.
Making an assumption like that they could had theorised that we Humans together with the Vasudans could prove to be a threat to them so they design the Lucifer as a spearhead to destroy the core planets of our race. Making a premptive strike always a strategical advantage hence the destruction that brought to Earth and Vasudan Prime by the Lucifer. Also, when you think about large ships you have to think of the signatures. What i mean?
The large the object the easier it get to lock and have a succesful hit on it. Also the slender frame ships with a less shield signature the longer it takes to track and lock. Thats the RL rule, and here in FS2 it applies abit also.

My 2cents.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 15, 2009, 02:57:10 pm
Not going to answer all the questions, just the ones where I disagree/want to add something

3. It is probably named like this to show that it represents the alliance. It does this in 2 ways: It is the flagship of the GTVA and it was the first truly Terran/Vasudan joint project. (I think someone says that in game)
4. They are not destroyed. I think there is something about quantum waves and subspace distortion. But really it could just be to destroy a GTVA star thus throwing it into chaos, it is only the node separation which saves them. Also they jump out at the end, so I'm pretty sure the Saths escape.
9. & 10. :v: say so
15. That sector seems to be an important one. There are multiple Saths passing through it into a Nebula. Communications would be vital to stop the whole situation turning into a huge mess.
19. So much speculation has been made about this topic, until FS3 (never) we will never know for sure.
20. The shivans use quantum waves to communicate. The humans cannot until ETAK. Also the shivans are the great destroyers, they don't want to speak to us. So the sum up, we can't speak to them, they don't want to speak to us.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 15, 2009, 11:09:59 pm
4. Why did the Shivans detonate the Capella star, probably resulting in the destruction of their Sath fleet?

All but at least three of them warped out. Given that the Shivans have over eighty Sathanas juggernauts, the loss of three plus one is but a dent.

6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?

He didn't. It was built under his orders.

7. Why aren't there any beams mounted on the Arcadia?

The GTVA probably saw little purpose in doing so, since they could send a small number of fighters to guard an Arcadia just as well or better (cue The Sixth Wonder and Dunkerque). Keep in mind that the Arcadia is half-civilian and half-military, and probably lacks a powerplant capable of supporting beam weapons for defence.

8. According to Freespace Wiki veterans, the Orion simply outwits the Hecate. How can this be? And why should the GTVA build a giant for an anti-fighter ship, when the Aelous is already a monster to fighters?

In essence, the Orion is a cuboid; much easier to protect than the Hecate's fairly confusing design, especially in the nebula.
The Aeolus was expensive to produce, lacked anti-warship weaponry (I mean, two SGreens doesn't quite cut it), and lacks a fighterbay.

14. Why didn't Volition give a name for Command? Or maybe, if you're a Vasudan, Command becomes a Vasudan. If you're under the Aquitaine, then Command should be Petrarch..

I believe he was given the callsign "Command" because it was easy to remember, and because he's probably only a representative of GTVA High Command. Why bother recalling his name when you can instead get his attention simply by calling him "Command", while at the same time sending an indirect query to the real Command themselves? Note that FS2 provides several examples of pilots who attempt to query GTVA High Command in-mission. To this effect, getting someone who's trained to keep saying, "You'll be informed on a need-to-know basis." is a much more convenient tactic of keeping such questions in check. Besides, you can't seriously expect GTVA Command to answer the beck and call of every single pilot when they have other things to worry about, right? ;)

17. Why did Volition give the Lucifer SReds in FS2?

It's been speculated that this was an oversight. The reality is that the LRed has damage values closer to the Shivan Super Laser than any other Shivan beam, including the BFRed.

18. Why does the Flux Cannon graphic look some how ugly (it takes time to hit its target, and doesn't have a beam sound), while its animation in the cutscene looks extremely cool?

The original Shivan Super Laser is probably just a table lift from FS1, and it is likely that the FreeSpace engine did not support the use of in-game beam cannons back in 1998. It is also speculated that all cutscenes in FS2 were made by a third party under :v:'s orders.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 16, 2009, 02:09:40 pm
1. Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology.



Well, its hard to say that the shivans ever produce anything. There has been no records of a shivan manufacturing facility. As far as we know, the Shivans just found these ships and use them for their own purposes. The lack of knowledge regarding the shivans is terrifying. Its a solid possibility that they simply found the ships they use, and never found more than one Lucifer.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 16, 2009, 02:36:54 pm
Hmmm, that is unlikely. There is a high level of stylistic continuity between the Shivan ships which suggests that they were built, not found. The lack of Shivan shipyards is probably due to the fact that the GTVA never explore Shivan space, the system beyond the nebula is the furthest that they get. Another possibility is that the ships are "grown" not constructed. They could be large bio-engineered entities which could explain their strange construction style.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: The E on October 16, 2009, 02:39:51 pm
Scary thought: Liliths and Cains are larval forms of Lucys....
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Uchuujinsan on October 17, 2009, 03:36:57 am
12. If they could use an invincible shielding for the Lucifer, then why can't they apply it to a Sathanas?
It was supposed to be invincible, and still got destroyed. The shivans themselves have beam weaponry, and if you believe them to be shield piercing for the lucifer as well (like they are for fighter shields ingame), you can easily assume the enemy has advanced beam weaponry on capital ships as well.
So shields don't help you anymore anyway, and you need ships to effectvely blast enemy cap ships out of the sky.
Because I think that's a really nice explanation I believe that beam weapons in general would have pierced through Lucis shields.

The Aeolus was expensive to produce, lacked anti-warship weaponry (I mean, two SGreens doesn't quite cut it), and lacks a fighterbay.
That the Aelous was expensive is iirc only fanon from inferno, and not canon. At least that was mentioned here some time ago.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 17, 2009, 12:57:45 pm
Hmmm, that is unlikely. There is a high level of stylistic continuity between the Shivan ships which suggests that they were built, not found. The lack of Shivan shipyards is probably due to the fact that the GTVA never explore Shivan space, the system beyond the nebula is the furthest that they get. Another possibility is that the ships are "grown" not constructed. They could be large bio-engineered entities which could explain their strange construction style.

Well consider this. Perhaps all their found ships were  from the races that they had previously destroyed hence the continuity. We know the ancients were destroyed by the ancients, but we never know what kind of ships they had. For all we know, the shivans could have wiped them out, then taken over ships left over by them.

But the most important factor here is that we truly have no idea what they shivans do. We don't know anything, and we cannot assume anything. I think that is partly what makes them so terrifying, is how little we know about them. Everything else is just speculation.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Mongoose on October 17, 2009, 02:53:29 pm
Well consider this. Perhaps all their found ships were  from the races that they had previously destroyed hence the continuity. We know the ancients were destroyed by the ancients, but we never know what kind of ships they had. For all we know, the shivans could have wiped them out, then taken over ships left over by them.
The thing is, if the Ancients had been wielding ships more powerful than those of the Shivans, then the Shivans presumably wouldn't have been able to exterminate them (unless they had an extreme numerical advantage, of course).  And if the Shivan ships were as superior to the Ancients' as most of us would assume, then what use would the Shivans have for inferior technology?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 17, 2009, 03:09:37 pm
I really cannot see the Shivans just finding ships to use. It really doesn't seem likely. I mean if they did scavenge ships why would they just take from one race? It would make more sense if there were several groups of ships, which looked the same, from different races. Also the Shivans are adapted to their ships. If they had found them this would not be so. Remember that all species will have different biology so different life support systems are needed, as well as different shapes of the corridors. There are several references to how easily the Shivans move through the corridors on their ships, while the humans find the layout very strange.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Pelegrin on October 18, 2009, 04:20:27 am
We are emulate the Shivan technology at the moment.
Lets not forget we had no shield technology or beam weapons.
The progress of the GTVA was based on studies of the Shivans and as long as they make the technology they will be a tech level higher than the GTVA until they the GTVA can emulate it.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 18, 2009, 02:43:36 pm
i'm not saying t hat thats what actually happened, I'm saying that theres no real way for us to know what did happen. The only thing we know for sure, is what we DONT know. As the whole argument regarding scavenged ships, it could be said that The Shivans dumped all their old ships and took up the Ancients ships after they wiped em out. Who knows why they did it?

But the entire point of my argument was that we don't know anything about the shivans or why the do the things they do. I'm getting the feeling that maybe you guys might have missed it. The point is that, we know what we don't know, And we don't know a hell of a lot. Everything else is speculation, guesses and shots in the dark.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 18, 2009, 03:31:22 pm
Well, yeah, we don't know very much, but going on what we do know we can see that the Shivans are very unlikely to have found their ships. But the other thing is this, you can't just say "We don't know much about them" to get out of an argument. If the evidence points at a certain thing then we can hypothesize that that is a possible theory.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Droid803 on October 18, 2009, 03:47:23 pm
I'm pretty certain that the Shivans did not lift their ships from the Ancients at the very least.
After all, the GTVA was able to clearly distinguish that the Knossos was not of Shivan design/construction.
If they used the same designs, the GTVA wouldn't have been able to tell them apart (they would have simply though the Knossos was Shivan-built).
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 18, 2009, 07:45:09 pm
Yeah, but i'm saying that we can't assume that we know how they act. However unlikely something is, there isn't enough evidence to support the conclusion that the shivans build their own ships. And i'm not trying to get out of an argument, thats what i'm arguing. Like i said, i think you are missing the point.

The GTVA distinguished that the Knossos was not of Shivan design/construct based on the ships that they had either captured, or seen in combat. They then compared that, to the design of the Knossos portal. They used the information they had, to make what they felt was a valid assumption. You cannot say the same about where they get their ships from. And, odds are we will never know, since the only way TO know is to ask Volition.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: The E on October 18, 2009, 07:47:51 pm
Sorry to say this, jk, but I think you're quite alone with that theory.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 19, 2009, 04:48:54 am
I know i am, but the point which it supports is something that i feel very strongly about. The theory itself is probably not true, but the roots from which it sprang are neither bull**** or nonsense. We can't know, and we cannot assume. Sorry for being so stubborn!
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: headdie on October 19, 2009, 12:53:41 pm
the consistency in ship design suggests to me that the ships are built/grown/created by the shivans.

We just don't know enough to say for sure how the shivans happen to have ships, I mean the FS1 fleet was a scouting fleet (loose canon from the back of the FS2 box supported by the size of the fleet met in FS2 compared to the Fleet in FS1) so I speculate they were performing a Recon-en-force type mission securing transit routes, obtaining intelligence on hostile forces and inflicting damage where possible.  Material objectives were not pursued because the fleet was operating from the 'core' of shivan space.  The FS2 fleet two also did not pursue a material agenda as they seem to again be engaged in Recon activity then bent on sending Capella super nova
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 19, 2009, 03:56:39 pm
Well the reasons for the Capella incident is unknown, who knows why the Shivans did that, maybe it was to recharge their fleet. (Yeah that makes no sense but ...) Anyway it seems that the Shivans are the "Great destroyers" and therefore don't really have a "core sector". They descend on those who "trespass" in subspace.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Droid803 on October 19, 2009, 08:55:44 pm
Yeah, but i'm saying that we can't assume that we know how they act. However unlikely something is, there isn't enough evidence to support the conclusion that the shivans build their own ships. And i'm not trying to get out of an argument, thats what i'm arguing. Like i said, i think you are missing the point.

The problem, I believe, is that you're not proving anything.
We all know that there is next to no information on the Shivans.
That however, does not entail that you can come up with whatever bat**** crazy theory that makes no sense. Well, actually, you could, but it doesn't entail that anyone would take it seriously.

Proof:
There's that Shivan theory about how they communicated by beaming the **** out of Terrans and Vasudans because they assumed that it was the method of communication and just wanted to be friemds. There's also the one where the Shivans blew up Capella for roasting nuts or something.
Neither contradicts stated canon, but expecting anyone to take either of those seriously is, in my opinion, very naive.

We don't know, but it is logical to assume something sensible. In fact, since we don't know anything, if we are to come up with a story, we must assume. It's stupid to assume something unsensible rather than something more logical if it is all possible.  We're not going for the solid truth, because it doesn't exist. We can only go for what makes the most sense.

Have fun getting people to take "The Shivans steal all their ships from the Ancients" seriously.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 19, 2009, 10:31:41 pm

Have fun getting people to take "The Shivans steal all their ships from the Ancients" seriously.

I'm not trying to get you to take that theory seriously at all... Once again you miss the point. What i'm arguing that its pretty much pointless to argue about which theory is more plausible... The bottom line is that we don't know so in my opinion, all theories are equally welcome no matter how ridiculous. Even a theory that's as nonsensical as scavenged ships.

I defended my "theory" because i felt that it was necessary to make you see that it was plausible, albeit not likely. You're right in saying that no ones going to take it seriously. They shouldn't, but at the same time, nothing makes it any more plausible than any of the other theories that float around on this forum.

And although you say its stupid to assume something unsensible rather than something more logical, i say that its Foolish to assume AT ALL. We should not assume anything. That is something that i feel very strongly about.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Droid803 on October 19, 2009, 11:26:30 pm
For the purposes of storytelling it is necessary that there is a premise.
I would like you to attempt to come up with a post-capella story that assumes nothing about what would happen.
GOOD ****ING LUCK!
Because you're not :v:, everything you say would be an assumption, or based off one (of which would be what happens after at all!)
You have to assume that the GTVA didn't spontaneously commit suicide.
You'd have to assume that everyone didn't sprout eighteen penises that can shoot beams and develop the ability to survive in a vacuum making fightercraft and capital ships obsolete.

Justified, logical assumptions are required to have any story whatsoever.

Even your own theory is based off an assumption that Shivans take their ships from someone else.

You cannot have a story without assumptions, so your baseless rejection of them is foolish!

Ugh...
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 20, 2009, 12:51:06 am
I'm afraid you're going to have to be a little clearer with your second paragraph because i can't make heads or tails of it.

From what i can gather of your post, you seem to claim that my rejection of assumptions is baseless. To that, i can say this. They assumed the earth was flat. They assumed that anyone outside of the christian religion were heretics and therefore must be purged. Not that long ago, some people assumed that certain races were inferior to the their own, and decided that they must be cleansed off the earth. So forgive me if i will not assume.

A story doesn't make any assumptions as far as i can tell. A story states what is supposed to be the entire truth. The story can say what it wants without assuming because the storyteller is God in their own universes.

And once again, you quote my theory, which i have repeatedly stated was only meant to be an example. You are right, my theory IS based off an assumption but so is every other theory out there. These assumptions don't make any of these theories any more or less true. In the realm of science, the chances of any of these theories being true are about the same, more or less. Something may seem more likely than something else, for example: The Earth is Round, But that is only until we find out something that tells us otherwise.

If its my own theory about scavenged ships that's really annoying you THAT much, then feel free to ignore it. I never said it. It wasn't that important to begin with.


But i think we've lost the original point of the argument. The only reason i mentioned it, is to respond to Tantalus's statement that the ships were mass produced. He stated that Ravanas were being mass produced, so i wanted to make it clear that we do not know how the shivans acquired their ships, whether it was created, found, grown, etc.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 20, 2009, 01:31:37 pm
I get your point about not knowing the truth but that does not really matter. And predictably you have dragged out the old argument of "We used to believe that the world is flat". That isn't really a counter argument, more a comment on how science works.
Allow me to explain: We form theories on things, based from evidence. There are many, often conflicting, theories about the Shivans as their isn't that much evidence, and there are no real facts.  Now, if we got some canon facts about the Shivans we could make a new theory, but until that time we must work with what we have. You cannot just say "well you can't make any assumptions". Real scientists make assumptions all the time, about things like gravity and matter, but that does not cause other scientists to jump up and down in rage, saying "NO ASSUMPTIONS!!" Until we know absolute fact (Which is technically impossible IRL) we MUST make assumptions.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 20, 2009, 03:06:21 pm
jkalltheway, the only thing you're proving is that you're spewing complete and utter tosh.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2009, 05:25:11 pm
Really? His fundamental point, that we don't know how the Shivans acquire their ships, seems very sound.

If it offends your very specific and personal Shivan aesthetic, Snail, that's a different matter.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 20, 2009, 06:19:29 pm
I understand how science works, but i also understand that they have to have evidence to support their theories. Currently, i just don't think there is enough evidence to support the idea that they have factories that create their ships. Its fine to have a theory, just expect your theory to be scrutinized and criticized. That's also part of the scientific process. Your theory just doesn't have enough support in the canon Freespace story for me to be able to use it as an answer to a question.

The original question was, : "The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??"

and the answer that i questioned was "Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology."

I have to question this answer, because i have a couple of issues with it. The first issue, is with the practical matter of it. Within the universe, there has been no intel regarding the shivans. Nothing is known about them, or how they function as a society or what are their purposes. To assume that they have factories, and means of production, you already assume that you know their culture and that they are similar to us in that way. They create ships, and send them off to war to destroy us.

My second issue with this is the problem it creates with the Shivans as a plot device. The shivans which are completely outside of our understanding, are now reduced to this enemy that we can see, and fight. You are free to disagree with me on this point, But i feel that the Shivans have to remain a shadow. The Shivans were supposed to be a faceless enemy, which is what makes them so terrifying! We fear, that which we do not understand.

Feel free to disagree, because we all have that right. But for the sake of this thread, i think i will have to bow out of it. I feel like we have gotten too far away from the original point of it, which is to answer Marcov's questions. Consider this a cop out if you must. Feel free to shoot me a message to continue this debate with me. But in this thread, i think i'm out.

If we shadows have offended,
 Think but this, and all is mended...
My bad.

Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2009, 06:43:57 pm
I agree with everything you said, jkalltheway.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 20, 2009, 06:59:00 pm
and the answer that i questioned was "Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology."

My second issue with this is the problem it creates with the Shivans as a plot device. The shivans which are completely outside of our understanding, are now reduced to this enemy that we can see, and fight. You are free to disagree with me on this point, But i feel that the Shivans have to remain a shadow. The Shivans were supposed to be a faceless enemy, which is what makes them so terrifying! We fear, that which we do not understand.

But this does not give them a face. Nor does it hamper their use as a plot device. I hate to interrupt your War on Straw, here, but you're asserting something that does not logically follow.


Further, the Shivans are not completely outside our understanding. They can be seen, watched, fought, defeated. Did you somehow miss that you spent the whole of both games doing basically that? Their technology has been adapted to serve the purposes of their enemies and even improved upon. Their langauge has been deciphered. The cloak of invisibilty came off long ago. They remain mysterious, but only because we do not know the why or the who of them. The hows and the whens and the whats, however, we've long since learned.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: karajorma on October 20, 2009, 07:16:38 pm
6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?

Personally I don't think the Iceni has any special new technology. What I feel is more likely is a matter of economics. The GTVA probably could build something like the Iceni but for the same price they could build a new Hecate. So they built new Hecates instead.

Bosch on the other hand specifically needed the something like the Iceni for his plans so he had it built even though those who didn't understand his plan probably thought it was stupid to build something like that instead of another much needed destroyer.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Droid803 on October 20, 2009, 08:17:45 pm
A story doesn't make any assumptions as far as i can tell. A story states what is supposed to be the entire truth. The story can say what it wants without assuming because the storyteller is God in their own universes.

And once again, you quote my theory, which i have repeatedly stated was only meant to be an example. You are right, my theory IS based off an assumption but so is every other theory out there. These assumptions don't make any of these theories any more or less true. In the realm of science, the chances of any of these theories being true are about the same, more or less. Something may seem more likely than something else, for example: The Earth is Round, But that is only until we find out something that tells us otherwise.

Good to see that we are actually in agreement.

The thing is, if you create the universe, then you are the God of that universe. A campaign writer didn't create FreeSpace, so what they say about it isn't necessarily true. Since the said campaign is based off an existing story (or, in other cases, off of reality), you have to make a few assumptions, formulate a theory, to create a premise. It says nothing about canon or reality, but for the purposes of your story it is true.

Similarily, you could write a campaign in which you assume that SD Ravanas are mass produced and that SD Lucifers aren't because they are more expensive. It wouldn't necessarily be true for ALL campaigns, but for the purposes of your story (say, to shut down a Shivan Production Facility), it isn't wrong to assume that at all. In fact, assuming that the Shivans steal their ships are fine for this purpose as well.

Of course, neither of these assumptions would apply to FS canon. They would only apply to your storyline.


The original question was, : "The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??"

and the answer that i questioned was "Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology."

I believe whoever posted that simply offered a possibility and not the absolute truth.

I may have mistaken this thread with the other that was asking something about theory for designing a campaign, hence why I was saying that you can make any assumption about the Shivans for your story if you want. (Though it would not apply to canon/reality). So I was saying that if they wanted, they could take this assumption and use it as a premise for their campaign if they wanted to.

If they just want closure on the plot holes in FreeSpace, then my apologies for overly complicating the subject.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2009, 08:29:18 pm
and the answer that i questioned was "Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology."

My second issue with this is the problem it creates with the Shivans as a plot device. The shivans which are completely outside of our understanding, are now reduced to this enemy that we can see, and fight. You are free to disagree with me on this point, But i feel that the Shivans have to remain a shadow. The Shivans were supposed to be a faceless enemy, which is what makes them so terrifying! We fear, that which we do not understand.

But this does not give them a face. Nor does it hamper their use as a plot device. I hate to interrupt your War on Straw, here, but you're asserting something that does not logically follow.


Further, the Shivans are not completely outside our understanding. They can be seen, watched, fought, defeated. Did you somehow miss that you spent the whole of both games doing basically that? Their technology has been adapted to serve the purposes of their enemies and even improved upon. Their langauge has been deciphered. The cloak of invisibilty came off long ago. They remain mysterious, but only because we do not know the why or the who of them. The hows and the whens and the whats, however, we've long since learned.

I think you're afraid of them.  :p
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 20, 2009, 11:04:56 pm
I think that i want to. But i don't know whether the writers of Freespace were successful in that sense. I'm always searching for that one movie that will scare the living daylights out of me. Not for a while though... :(
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2009, 11:05:25 pm
Well, I was addressing NGTM-1R.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 20, 2009, 11:46:38 pm
yeah i picked that up a little late. Then i figured why waste a perfectly good post.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 20, 2009, 11:48:56 pm
I think you're afraid of them.  :p

You'd be silly not to be. :P But that doesn't require mystery; only overwhelming power.

As I said, we know the Shivans. But we don't understand them. It is an important difference.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 20, 2009, 11:57:12 pm
I think the Shivans are, in the long run, meant to symbolize the great anthropocentric uncertainty of mankind.

Are we the right path for life in the cosmos? Or are we some kind of dead end, a bunch of overly specialized, under-adapted planetdwellers with flawed cognition and a backwards social structure? When we go out there, are we going to find ourselves shuddering in the face of something so truly superior and unknowable that, no matter how hard we strive, we cannot avoid extinction?

The Shivans are an embodiment of the possibility that the cosmos are an inimicably hostile place, and that we are only apes brandishing sticks and posturing at the uncaring darkness.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Pelegrin on October 21, 2009, 10:12:26 am
Fear not my friend.
As long we have imagination we can become immortals and even fly in the vaccum of space with just a thought.
I am playing 4 years on the trot Eve online and the technolgy there can easily outmatch the Shivans although it took afew thousands years.
If we can theorise correctly and say for example for the FS3 we can work out how the Cnosos portal works amd we can recreate it somehow we can make stargate technology. That way we can travel even further and maybe we can find our way back to the Sol system. Also cloning technology and warp technology is still not in the FS referedum. Also Heavy Cannon fire, Electronical Warfare, Clocking Devises (Stealth ships), EMP bombs, Electronic Counter Measures and Missile Technology (Cruise and Torpedoes) are not even scarcely making a show yet.  I wont even go to how a Starbase or a Station should be set and be defended from space phenomena and hostiles.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 21, 2009, 11:18:28 am
The way I see it is that :v: wanted to make this a trilogy.

In the first game the Shivans are much better that us, with their shields and indestructible ships.
In the second game we are more on a par with the Shivans. (Well at least for most of the game we are made to feel like that)
I would think that in the third game we would have discovered more about the true nature of the Shivans, and perhaps escape death at their hands.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 21, 2009, 03:12:38 pm
Fear not my friend.
As long we have imagination we can become immortals and even fly in the vaccum of space with just a thought.
I am playing 4 years on the trot Eve online and the technolgy there can easily outmatch the Shivans although it took afew thousands years.
If we can theorise correctly and say for example for the FS3 we can work out how the Cnosos portal works amd we can recreate it somehow we can make stargate technology. That way we can travel even further and maybe we can find our way back to the Sol system. Also cloning technology and warp technology is still not in the FS referedum. Also Heavy Cannon fire, Electronical Warfare, Clocking Devises (Stealth ships), EMP bombs, Electronic Counter Measures and Missile Technology (Cruise and Torpedoes) are not even scarcely making a show yet.  I wont even go to how a Starbase or a Station should be set and be defended from space phenomena and hostiles.

None of this technology addresses the fact that our cognitive architecture and social systems still date to the Stone Age.

In fact I think this stumbles onto another anthropocentric fallacy: the idea that only humans can innovate well. How many SF settings are full of races - the Covenant, the Borg, the Goa'uld, what have you - that, while high-tech,  fundamentally lack the capacity to innovate? Mankind, of course, being 'adaptable and bright', makes huge strides in a short span of time and quickly matches their opponent.

We'd all like to think that's true, but we have no idea if it is. We might be incredible dullards compared to whatever's Out There. Our individualistic, loosely social, gain-risk-averse/loss-risk-seeking cognitive setup might just be a badly optimized one.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: jkalltheway on October 21, 2009, 04:28:38 pm

None of this technology addresses the fact that our cognitive architecture and social systems still date to the Stone Age.

In fact I think this stumbles onto another anthropocentric fallacy: the idea that only humans can imitate. How many SF settings are full of races - the Covenant, the Borg, the Goa'uld, what have you - that, while high-tech,  fundamentally lack the capacity to innovate? Mankind, of course, being 'adaptable and bright', makes huge strides in a short span of time and quickly matches their opponent.

We'd all like to think that's true, but we have no idea if it is. We might be incredible dullards compared to whatever's Out There. Our individualistic, loosely social, gain-risk-averse/loss-risk-seeking cognitive setup might just be a badly optimized one.

I'm thinking that science fiction does this, not because of Mankind being adaptable and bright, as they have tried to make the enemy arrogant, and flawed. They have to create some sort of major flaw in the opposing race/species/whatever so that mankind  can survive. The truth of the matter is that if in reality we were invaded by a technologically superior alien species, we would probably be wiped off the face of the earth.

I think that its part of the whole mentality that we are something special in the universe, and we can overcome anything given resilience and hope. Also, it probably would be a very short lived series where we get annihilated in the first episode.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 21, 2009, 05:24:38 pm
I agree.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 21, 2009, 06:56:07 pm
What makes the FreeSpace universe slightly more appealing is that the Terrans aren't alone - We have the Vasudans. This means that Terrans seem less like a "species sue", if you will. For me anyway.

...And somehow I know a bunch of those rampant Vasudan-hating guys are going to hijack this thread...
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 22, 2009, 11:15:00 am
Actually we also have the Shivans. We can hardly consider them to be inferior in terms of imagination. They always have better weapons than us and seem to advance fairly quickly in certain situations. Maybe not in ship terms but certainly in tactics.

Oh and they get automatic victory in the best species category, they zapped the Zods :D
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 22, 2009, 11:24:54 am
What I didn't like about FS2 was that the Shivans went from being intergalactic menace to generic space bugs with an infinite number of disposable assets.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 22, 2009, 11:41:06 am
What I didn't like about FS2 was that the Shivans went from being intergalactic menace to generic space bugs with an infinite number of disposable assets.

I see your point there. The FS1 mission "Pandora's Box" was probably the scariest mission I've ever flown, and it got me hooked on the music in there too (Haunted).
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 22, 2009, 12:16:50 pm
I think that the problem comes from the fact that the Shivans are not technologically superior in a huge way, as they are at the start of FS1.
Also we know who they are so the GTVA classifies them as a standard enemy, not the unstoppable menace that they seem to be in FS1.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 22, 2009, 05:01:37 pm
What I didn't like about FS2 was that the Shivans went from being intergalactic menace to generic space bugs with an infinite number of disposable assets.

What I didn't like about FS1 was that the Shivans came across as the usual idiotic uberaliens defeated by Pluck and Teamwork and Zeal and Love.

In FS2 they finally managed to seem like an uncaring, ineffable cosmic force. They weren't a Zerg Swarm or anything, they were just...bigger scale. Do you care how many cells you abrade when you squash a bug?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Mongoose on October 22, 2009, 08:20:58 pm
What I didn't like about FS1 was that the Shivans came across as the usual idiotic uberaliens defeated by Pluck and Teamwork and Zeal and Love.

In FS2 they finally managed to seem like an uncaring, ineffable cosmic force. They weren't a Zerg Swarm or anything, they were just...bigger scale. Do you care how many cells you abrade when you squash a bug?
This, completely.  FS1 took an old-as-the-hills trope of a super-powered alien menace and executed it rather effectively.  FS2, however, threw the book out and made the Shivans something else entirely.  They're not some unstoppable force hell-bent on xenophobia, they're not held off by some last-second miracle...they're just doing their own thing, largely oblivious to the GTVA's actions. I have to wonder if the sole Sathanas that penetrated any further than Capella would have attacked any significant GTVA targets at all.  The combination of the overwhelming power of the Sathanas fleet and its seeming indifference of taking up where the Lucifer left off, topped off by the wonderfully-inexplicable Capella supernova, really sold the Shivans as an almost-otherworldly force, with their own goals and motivations.  And here we are ten years later, still trying to spin our own stories explaining what they're all about.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 22, 2009, 09:04:51 pm
Yeah. I mean, imagine if we'd ended on a note like FS1. Would we really still have all these incredible story ideas?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: headdie on October 23, 2009, 02:51:12 am
has any one thought of a campaign from the perspective of an alien race battling the shivans and on the verge of annihilation by the Sathanas fleet when the GTVA stumbles into the nebula drawing off the juggernauts and the Aliens trying to find out why the Shivans apparently "Spared" them
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 04:44:55 am
What I didn't like about FS2 was that the Shivans went from being intergalactic menace to generic space bugs with an infinite number of disposable assets.

What I didn't like about FS1 was that the Shivans came across as the usual idiotic uberaliens defeated by Pluck and Teamwork and Zeal and Love.

In FS2 they finally managed to seem like an uncaring, ineffable cosmic force. They weren't a Zerg Swarm or anything, they were just...bigger scale. Do you care how many cells you abrade when you squash a bug?
Personal preference.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Androgeos Exeunt on October 23, 2009, 11:42:23 am
Battuta has a point, though. The Shivans were originally billed as an unstoppable foe in FS1 (cue Ref Bible), yet the teamwork of two vastly inferior species were not only able to stop them, but also drive them out of their world for 3.2 decades. In FS2, though, they just kept coming, despite both the Terrans and Vasudans having developed advanced technology and working even closer together than they did 32 years prior. The only problem with their return is that the Shivans didn't really do it in a very smart or elegant manner, instead seemingly taking on the brute force stance.

Maybe they got bored touring Capella again.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 12:21:54 pm
Battuta has a point, though. The Shivans were originally billed as an unstoppable foe in FS1 (cue Ref Bible), yet the teamwork of two vastly inferior species were not only able to stop them, but also drive them out of their world for 3.2 decades. In FS2, though, they just kept coming, despite both the Terrans and Vasudans having developed advanced technology and working even closer together than they did 32 years prior. The only problem with their return is that the Shivans didn't really do it in a very smart or elegant, instead seemingly taking on the brute force stance.

Maybe they got bored touring Capella again.
FS2 replaced the thinking, scheming Shivans of FS1 with the army of giant space bugs. I agree it did avoid some of the stereotypical super species tropes, but I still liked the FS1 dudes better than FS2's.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Scotty on October 23, 2009, 12:31:59 pm
What about FS1 makes you think they are scheming and thinking at all?  They show up, blast some ships, torch some planets, and get stopped.  Doesn't really take a genius or a clever scheme to do that.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2009, 01:23:24 pm
Yeah, there wasn't much about FS1 that screamed 'clever thinking adversary' to me.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 23, 2009, 01:37:49 pm
I used to think the same, Shivans on FS1 are not smarter, they just seem smarter because they are harder to kill, that's all.

the only mission where it seems they are being smart is that mission with the Bastion where you are supposed to get some Shivan shield tecnology and you find yourself cought in a trap.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 23, 2009, 01:51:58 pm
I find it hard in some cases to think of the Shivans in FS1 and FS2 as the same group. The first ones attack us directly, and go for our home worlds, but in the second game they ignore us mostly, and just carry out their strange objectives.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2009, 01:56:58 pm
I think FS canon explains why, without any additional elements required.

But I think a lot of people will disagree very vehemently.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 03:05:22 pm
Yeah, there wasn't much about FS1 that screamed 'clever thinking adversary' to me.
:rolleyes:

Evading blockades. Searching for Earth. Setting up ambushes. Attacking the shield convoy(s). Actively searching out and attacking the convoys who had learned their weakness from the Ancient data recorder.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2009, 03:18:21 pm
All of that happened during FS2 as well, though.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 23, 2009, 03:23:02 pm
It did??
I can't think of any examples of the top of my head.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2009, 03:45:01 pm
The Sathanas refused to be baited and evaded ambush by GTVA destroyers. The Shivans probed GTVA defenses and made tactical and strategic feints. They boarded a target of interest and captured prisoners. They certainly set up ambushes (The Great Hunt). They attacked convoys bearing critical targets at every opportunity (Battle of the Wilderness, Crisis in Capella) and constantly harassed Allied shipping. They disrupted training exercises and guarded their own nebular supply lines. They actively targeted the Bastion.

The relative lack of MacGuffins in the FS2 storyline is a nice touch, too.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 04:30:07 pm
The Sathanas refused to be baited and evaded ambush by GTVA destroyers.
Uh. Really? All it did was head for the Gamma Draconis Node. I see no active evasion whatsoever there. More like stupidity on the GTVA's part for not deploying ships to the Node. In fact, it completely fell for a GTVA plot using the Maahes to allow Alpha 1 to scan its systems, despite it obviously being aware of his presence.

The Shivans probed GTVA defenses and made tactical and strategic feints.
Really? Could you give a few examples? I can't remember any.

They boarded a target of interest and captured prisoners.
Ah, that I'll give you. :nod:

They certainly set up ambushes (The Great Hunt).
That wasn't an ambush, that was the Ravana responding to the GTVA's attack on the Iblis and Asuras - Just as Command planned. It was a standard battle-scouting mission by the GTVA, attacking targets of opportunity to draw out the Ravana, just the same as Feint! Parry! Riposte and Speaking in Tongues, and worked perfectly.

They attacked convoys bearing critical targets at every opportunity (Battle of the Wilderness, Crisis in Capella) and constantly harassed Allied shipping.
They attacked anything that moved, more like. This is in contrast to FS1, where Shivans applied much higher tactical force to neutralize key targets - The GTSC Rosetta, the shield convoys, etc.

They disrupted training exercises and guarded their own nebular supply lines. They actively targeted the Bastion.
They hardly targeted the Bastion. They could have sent a Sathanas or even a Ravana, which would easily have smashed the light, mainly anti-bomber screen. Yet they didn't even send a single capship into the fray.

Additionally, the Sathanas only attacked the Colossus when prompted to, waiting until it had destroyed the SD Beast, several Shivan cruisers and a Shivan convoy before even thinking of attacking.


If the Shivans were thinking in FS2, they must've been idiots.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2009, 04:32:02 pm
You could make the same kind of points about most of FS1, because I played through that game kinda cocking an eyebrow and thinking 'this is it'?

The application of overwhelming force when one has overwhelming force is not a tactical error. Nor is the prioritization of objectives. Part of what made FS1 so transparent was that the Shivan objectives were banal: exterminate all life, Dalek it up, whatevs.

So I really imagine it's down to personal preference, thanks.

As I said earlier, everything the Shivans do in FS2 makes perfect sense in the FS canon, and it's quite intelligent.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 04:33:20 pm
You could make the same kind of points about most of FS1, because I played through that game kinda cocking an eyebrow and thinking 'this is it'?
Not really. The Shivans in FS1 were more tactically sound. I can cite numerous examples.

The application of overwhelming force when one has overwhelming force is not a tactical error. Nor is the prioritization of objectives. Part of what made FS1 so transparent was that the Shivan objectives were banal: exterminate all life, Dalek it up, whatevs.
That is IMHO what made the Shivans in FS1 more frightening. The fact that they were actively trying to kill you, while utilizing similar tactics to ourselves, yet not making a single attempt at communication, was what made me like them. Whereas in FS2, they were off doing something else instead of actually trying to do anything. In a way I suppose that could be even more frightening, since they weren't overly bothered with the GTVA, but I didn't feel that way myself.

So I really imagine it's down to personal preference, thanks.
Hey, I'm not saying FS1 was any better or FS2 or anything. All I'm saying is that I liked the Shivans' portrayal in FS1 better than their portrayal in FS2.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2009, 04:38:40 pm
*sigh* Go on, then, cite your examples, because the Shivans in FS1 made no sense.

They had an invincible ship. They could've been over Sol in a day or two.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 23, 2009, 04:52:14 pm
Well in FS1 the GTA and the PVE are the main targets, they are made to feel important enough.

In the second one the GTVA is just a mild annoyance, and the Shivans don't pay us that much attention. I mean when they lose Destroyers and Juggernauts, they don't seem to stop their advance for one second. This I think explains the potential lack of tactical nous in FS2.

BTW which particular part of the canon are you referring too? (sorry for being a n00b :))
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 04:53:11 pm
*sigh* Go on, then, cite your examples, because the Shivans in FS1 made no sense.
In Pandora's Box, they set up an ambush to kill the player (but fail). Nonetheless...

In Hammer and the Anvil, they are led to believe that they have already destroyed all the shield prototypes, and believe that the convoy which is actually carrying the shield convoy is just another convoy headed for Earth. However, once they learn the contents of the Cargoes, they actively seek to destroy them.

In First Strike, the Shivans try to destroy the Taranis once they realise the possibility of the Terrans capturing it.

In Shell Game, the Shivans drop cargo containers as a trap, knowing the GTA will try to capture them. The cargo containers then self-destructed, killing a few Terrans in the process.

In the Battle of Deneb, they sent the Eva to lead a secondary fleet while the Lucifer circumvented the blockade at Deneb. (Next though, in Evangelist, they do something really stupid, just leaving the Eva out there to get exploded, I'll admit that was pretty idiotic on the Shivans' part).

In A Failure to Communicate, the Shivans attack the Beta Aquilae Communications Terminal. Whether this is just the Shivans attacking anything that is not Shivan, or if they were actually trying to disrupt communications is up to debate.

In Running the Gauntlet, the Shivans actually send in their flagship, the Lucifer, to a relative backwater away from the front, Altair IV, to neutralize the Rosetta and the convoy. The Lucifer was actively seeking to destroy any evidence of the Ancient data recorder to prevent the Terrans from learning their secret. This is IMO the best evidence for Shivans actually thinking in FS1.

They had an invincible ship. They could've been over Sol in a day or two.
No, actually. They couldn't because they didn't know where Sol was.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 23, 2009, 05:15:37 pm
They could've been over Sol in two or three days, then, because all you've got to do is fly your untargetable Scorpions through every jump node in sight.

The rest of what you posted up there sounds comparable to FS2, in both silly things and smart things.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 05:20:35 pm
The rest of what you posted up there sounds comparable to FS2, in both silly things and smart things.
I guess.


It's personal preference really.


BUT FS1 IS STILL BETTER HAHAHAHA I WIN
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 23, 2009, 05:29:59 pm

In Hammer and the Anvil, they are led to believe that they have already destroyed all the shield prototypes, and believe that the convoy which is actually carrying the shield convoy is just another convoy headed for Earth. However, once they learn the contents of the Cargoes, they actively seek to destroy them.


for that one you could also say that they were just attacking in force any and all convoys in transit from the station to the node, furthermore command assures you that the Shivans think they've already destroyed all the prototypes, which implies the shivans knew how many of those where developed! and that in fact they were all destroyed in early runs, I wonder now if the shivans had an spy infiltrated in the installation.. :nervous:
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 05:33:21 pm
for that one you could also say that they were just attacking in force any and all convoys in transit from the station to the node, furthermore command assures you that the Shivans think they've already destroyed all the prototypes, which implies the shivans knew how many of those where developed! and that in fact they were all destroyed in early runs, I wonder now if the shivans had an spy infiltrated in the installation.. :nervous:
No, it's pretty obvious the Shivans were actively targeting the containers themselves, "Krishna wing is targetting the cargo!"

Note also:
Quote
The Shivans should think you are just another shipment headed for Beta Cygni. This is not the direct route to Earth, which should divert the Shivans from our true intent.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 23, 2009, 05:49:22 pm
No, it's pretty obvious the Shivans were actively targeting the containers themselves, "Krishna wing is targetting the cargo!"

Yes, It's pretty obvious they are targeting the cargo you got that.

Note also:
Quote
The Shivans should think you are just another shipment headed for Beta Cygni. This is not the direct route to Earth, which should divert the Shivans from our true intent.

I could say plot hole there, Shivans weren't supposed to know where Earth was right?.. so either they KNEW where Earth was and they were stupid enough to not attack it right away or they didn't knew it at all... so why bothering sending the cargo the other way.?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 07:09:11 pm
FS1 has a lot of (minor) plot holes, yeah.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Hades on October 23, 2009, 07:26:01 pm
Note also:
Quote
The Shivans should think you are just another shipment headed for Beta Cygni. This is not the direct route to Earth, which should divert the Shivans from our true intent.

I could say plot hole there, Shivans weren't supposed to know where Earth was right?.. so either they KNEW where Earth was and they were stupid enough to not attack it right away or they didn't knew it at all... so why bothering sending the cargo the other way.?
Not really a plot hole. If they go the direct route, then they have a much higher chance of the Shivans pursuing them all the way to Sol, and finding Earth. However, if they go the indirect route, they can shake off any pursuing Shivans on the way there and safely reach Earth without the Shivans finding Earth.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 23, 2009, 08:14:31 pm
Not really a plot hole. If they go the direct route, then they have a much higher chance of the Shivans pursuing them all the way to Sol, and finding Earth. However, if they go the indirect route, they can shake off any pursuing Shivans on the way there and safely reach Earth without the Shivans finding Earth.

You are giving for granted that Terrans knew Shivans didn't know the location of Earth, maybe they did, maybe they were just guessing the shivans knew that.

Still, sending the prototypes the long way is not a wise decision, this only gives the Shivans more time to catch up IMO, yet again... the success of the strikes would depend on how many assets did the Shivans had on the direct and alternate route respectively.

When this kind of conversation pops up I always finish thinking if the GTI was aware or not of Shivan presence long LONG before the initial engagement, and what did they knew about them.
Damn partially released game  :p
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 23, 2009, 08:30:18 pm
The GTI certainly had already accessed shield systems before the Shivans were ever officially contacted. The MX-50 tech description makes reference to a "Ross 128 deflector array". Given the Shivans' caution over people stealing their tech, perhaps that's why Ross 128 was the first place attacked.

Also, a few command briefings do mention that the Lucifer didn't know where Earth was and that it had to search several star systems before being able to locate it. Also, Shivan presence in Terran systems during the first Act of FreeSpace 1 is actually surprisingly minimal. The Taranis appears to be the only large Shivan capital ship in the sector.


Evidence:

Quote
The cruiser Taranis is suspected to be the source of command for the Shivans in this sector.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 23, 2009, 11:09:27 pm
Could be like you say.. I always got surprised on how fast Terran command was able to deploy and apply shield technology, something felt incredibly wrong...

that and the appearance of the Banshee canon specifically to kill Shivan shields...
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Ziame on October 24, 2009, 04:47:27 am
 This "unknown background" seems cool and all but... aren't you just trying to justify inconsistencies?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 24, 2009, 06:48:09 am
aren't you just trying to justify inconsistencies?
And is there anything wrong with that?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 24, 2009, 09:02:28 am
This "unknown background" seems cool and all but... aren't you just trying to justify inconsistencies?

yes I am ^^
Can't help it, I always end up thinking what would have happened if.. or how did it happen-
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 24, 2009, 09:04:41 am
IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to clear up inconsistencies. Or else we'd have to go down Mobius' "Everything in FS1 never happened" retcon route, which I hate. :doubt:
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: RedBaron on October 24, 2009, 09:37:12 am
Has anyone of you asked himself ever why the shivans got beam tech at the same time as we did???
Lets forget about balance.

The shivans had subspace tech... well, over 5000 years ago when they kicked ancient asses.
Terrans have it since... I dont know, lets say 300 years.

then we faced the shivans the first time and the only beam weapons they had were lucifer ones.

Now think: with stolen tech from shivans -or not- we got beam tech for smaller ships within a few hundered years.
Shivans needed over 5000 years! ;7

Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Ziame on October 24, 2009, 09:53:29 am
IMHO, there is absolutely nothing wrong with trying to clear up inconsistencies. Or else we'd have to go down Mobius' "Everything in FS1 never happened" retcon route, which I hate. :doubt:

Well nothing in FreeSpace ever happened, that's true. Tho i don't say that's bad, go ahead and make a campaign out of it, would be cool.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: stuart133 on October 24, 2009, 10:02:47 am
Has anyone of you asked himself ever why the shivans got beam tech at the same time as we did???
Lets forget about balance.

The shivans had subspace tech... well, over 5000 years ago when they kicked ancient asses.
Terrans have it since... I dont know, lets say 300 years.

then we faced the shivans the first time and the only beam weapons they had were lucifer ones.

Now think: with stolen tech from shivans -or not- we got beam tech for smaller ships within a few hundered years.
Shivans needed over 5000 years! ;7



The engine??

No but really, it could have something to do with the fact that there are two groups of Shivans, maybe. I know it sounds unlikely but there are certainly a large number of differences between the FS1 Shivans and the FS2 ones.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 24, 2009, 10:03:47 am
Has anyone of you asked himself ever why the shivans got beam tech at the same time as we did???
Lets forget about balance.

The shivans had subspace tech... well, over 5000 years ago when they kicked ancient asses.
Terrans have it since... I dont know, lets say 300 years.

then we faced the shivans the first time and the only beam weapons they had were lucifer ones.

Now think: with stolen tech from shivans -or not- we got beam tech for smaller ships within a few hundered years.
Shivans needed over 5000 years! ;7
:doubt:

Let's not go down the stereotypical "Only Terrans are smart" route.

My personal theory is that there were two separate fleets.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 24, 2009, 12:26:40 pm
yeah, two different fleets separated by a Knossos portal, build by the ancients and then deactivated because of the Shivan incursion, unfortunately they disactivated it too late as the Lucy and accompanying ships had already crossed the portal.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Mongoose on October 24, 2009, 01:03:10 pm
My own viewpoint is that the existence of the Knossos provides the explanation.  If one assumes that the Lucifer fleet in FS1 is the same fleet that destroyed the portion of the Ancient empire that corresponds to GTVA space as we know it, then one could easily see the Ancients shutting down the Gamma Draconis Knossos after they'd passed through, in a last-ditch effort to stem the tide.  Unfortunately for them, the Lucifer was still essentially invincible, so they were wiped out regardless.  The Lucifer fleet tried to return the way it had come, only to find the Knossos deactivated and their path blocked.  Presumably, they then decided to either go into a state of hibernation until otherwise instructed, just hang out in the raw fabric of subspace, or do whatever it is that Shivans do in their downtime.

Fast-forward 8000 years or so, and all of a sudden, the Shivans start picking up subspace signatures all over the place, from two rather pesky species that seem to have a beef with each other.  Maybe they decide that enough is enough after fourteen years of conflict, or maybe the GTI pokes its nose somewhere it shouldn't have, but either way, the Lucifer fleet finally wakes up and gets back in the business of annihilating entire species.  As effective as they are at doing so, however, they're still using 8000-year-old ships.  In the meantime, back in whatever mysterious regions of space beyond the Knossos portal they were occupying, the Shivans as a whole decided that the whole "beam cannon" thing they had implemented for the Lucifer was a pretty good idea, and set about sticking them on every capital ship in the fleet.  Fast-forward a bit more to FS2, and these up-gunned Shivans pour through the newly-opened portal, only to find that there were two pesky alien species on the other side who'd figured out how to use the same sort of weaponry.

(Lousy post snipers. :p)
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Snail on October 24, 2009, 01:11:44 pm
If beam cannons and flak guns are the best the Shivans come up with in a time of 8,000 years, they must be pretty dumb.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: The E on October 24, 2009, 01:15:33 pm
Or not very interested in developing those areas. After all, they seem sufficient for the task at hand, do they not?
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Mongoose on October 24, 2009, 01:20:51 pm
Exactly.  When you're already kicking ass and taking names with just a few "invincible" beam-equipped ships, there's not exactly much of a drive to improve one's technology.  Maybe the Shivans came across some other species that gave them significantly more trouble than the Ancients did, and so implemented fleet-wide beam weapons in response.  Besides, as we're all so fond of reminding each other, we don't have any insight at all into Shivan thought processes.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 24, 2009, 01:30:31 pm
I am frustrated. I have a lovely explanation for all of this that uses only elements present in the FS canon, but I'm tempted to save it to use somewhere.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Ziame on October 24, 2009, 01:48:53 pm
Tell us.

As for beam cannons: I agree with Mongoose, that's prolly it, they invented beam cannons shortly before the war with Ancients


And the second thing: Don't you think GTVA was able to destroy Lucifer fleet just because they were frakkin... 8000 year old? That kinda makes sense...
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: General Battuta on October 24, 2009, 01:55:01 pm
I think the answers are mostly in the FS1 outro.
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: RedBaron on October 24, 2009, 02:48:10 pm
I think the answers are mostly in the FS1 outro.

One of the most significant information was:

"All jump points from earth are gone, but they can rebuild them"


But nothin explained why they are dump  :P
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 24, 2009, 04:06:36 pm
Shivan R&D is greatly inhibited by the resources spent building Sathanas juggernauts. :P
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Rodo on October 24, 2009, 10:22:32 pm
The hive mind does not have enought time to spend on research, as it's always directing convoy runs and deploying destroyers and all that stuff...
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: Hades on October 25, 2009, 10:53:15 am
There's no evidence supporting that the Shivan's structure is a hive-mind...
Title: Re: Pondering about Freespace
Post by: terran_emperor on October 25, 2009, 12:20:30 pm
Well, there is speculation about it in the FS2 intel files