[That Man]

I'm contemplating FREDing my way to glory and creating my campaign (once I actually learn how to FRED, that is). Before I do, though, I have a question regarding game balance, particularly FS1-era anti-fighter weapons.

After the Great War ended, it should have been abundantly clear to both Terrans and Vasudans that--with the exception of the Typhon--their capital ships are terrible at shooting down enemy fighters.

Arguably, shooting down fighters is what other fighters are for. But a wing of fighters can usually only take on one other enemy wing at a time, leaving capital ships vulnerable to attacks from other vectors while its fighter escorts are engaged. Blobs may be good at killing incoming bombs and other enemy warships, but if a wing of three or four bombers can pose a serious threat to something as big as an Orion, clearly a weapons upgrade is in order.

Suppose, then, that it's just a few years after the Lucifer's destruction and the Hades Rebellion. Many system governments have seceded into independent states, industry and infrastructure will take decades to recover, and there's a niggling paranoia in the minds of many that the Shivans will return to Terran-Vasudan space before rebuilding is complete. Flak cannons and anti-fighter beams are years away from being realized.

Bearing all this in mind, how would Terran Command go about upgrading its destroyers and cruisers to be more effective against fighters?

[MatthTheGeek]

Beams aren't there yet. Flak might.

However at that point the easier and most obvious solution to bombers is simply more friendly fighters in the air.

[Trivial Psychic]

Cluster or shot-gun style pulse weapons would be a good one.
Heavy use of anti-fighter missiles would do well, though it is likely an expensive alternative, since you have to keep all that ordinance aboard.  Plasma (pulse) seems like something easier to manufacture and easier to store as its more universally used by other aspects of a ship's operation.

[-Norbert-]

Create a blob turret with more anti-shield damage and a higher projectile velocity.

Hell even sticking Avengers on the turrets instead if regular cap-ship turrets would probably be a great boost in anti-fighter defense for FS1 ships.

[fightermedic]

adding avengers is pure overkill, all the warships become killing mashines (ok, maybe not the orion)
in my lightning marshal revamp i simply increased the speed and damage of the small blobs, that worked pretty well i think (i made proper anti captial weapons out of the big blobs by the same method)

[Damage]

If I were in the GTA's position, I would consider using avenger or even flail turrets as at least a stop-gap measure while developing newer weapons as a more long-term solution.  I feel it would be workable because they had those weapons available.  At some point, somebody had to have said, "Hey, let's try this idea out?"
  Maybe it's something that they would have tested on a few ships, in different configurations, until they either

a) found a setup that works
b) develop said newer weapons (better blobs, flak, beams)
c) decide that fighter-weapon turrets are unfeasable for some other reason (burn out too rapidly or something?)

[That Man]

Thank you all for your input. 

Better/faster blobs seem like the most logical next step for GTA/PVE vessels, given the state of the colonies after the Great War. Cruisers and destroyers will create a blob-filled field of shooty death.

[Beskargam]

Man, forgot I had this. This might be a good visual of that premise. Personally, this is how turrets should have worked in the first place

Invalid YouTube URL: <iframe width="640" height="360" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/mEegS5GQfbw?feature=player_detailpage" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
e: sigh, what do I need to do to get the youtube embedding to work?
e: welp, it hyperlinked, which is good enough, thanks Niffiwan
e: da eff? now it's linking a royksopp song
e: I be captainin the strugglebus today haha

[niffiwan]

add the time param, something like:

Code: [Select]

[yt time=000]blah[/yt]


[AdmiralRalwood]

e: welp, it hyperlinked, which is good enough, thanks Niffiwan

You don't want the whole URL, just the video ID:

[That Man]

Oh, that's pretty. 

Thanks, guys. That's exactly the effect I'm looking for.

[SypheDMar]

What I would do is similar to fightermedic's. my interpretation of the universe is that the game mechanic is an "easy mode" for what really happens in the universe. Even in the reference bible the devs mention that the fighters are overpowered because that's what the players are.

In actual FreeSpace universe, the world is probably a lot more chaotic and deadly for fighters and bombers. Anyway, it's just something to think about if you don't mind "tweaking" canon.

[-Norbert-]

You don't even need to tweak canon.

When you make your own mod that played after, rather than during any official content, you can just argue that the GTA and PVN had to change their tactics due to the way the arrival of the Shivans and the development of shields and new fighter-grade weapons changed the battlefield.

Remember that every single capitalship in FS1 was designed and build in a time when the ML-16 and Rockeye were the best available fighter weapons and fighters had no shields! With the massive powerboost that fighters got during the course of the war, it's only natural to develop similar upgrades for capital ships, unless the entire doctrine is changed to a more carrier based approach.

You can always argue that the capships in FS2 had to go back to the old weapons because otherwise there wouldn't have been enough energy for the beams, or simply branch the mod off into an alternate timeline.

[SypheDMar]

Of course you don't have to tweak canon. There are many mods that just accepts canon at face value and still make it realistic BP and VD for example. And your idea is widely applied and assumed in even retail. I was giving an alternative rationale of increasing cap ship potency other than "canon is king", which is less of the purist route and might drive a few wedges.

I take everything official and develop my interpretation of how the universe works instead of basing it primarily on the gameplay. For example, when the Tech Room contradicts what happens in game, I would favor the Tech Room. And when I watch the anis and the cutscenes, those are used to complement canon but not supersede nor be replaced by gameplay. As long as it is not contradicted by every other source, it can be incorporated into the mythology. This includes the official non V shorts minus the one about Laramis.

One way I think of it is this: different modes of entertainment can represent the same thing differently. The cutscenes have fighters that appear slower and more fragile than the gameplay, for example. The anis show fighters as fragile glass cannons that have thrusts, something which isn't available on many ships in the gameplay. The tech room mentions a ship having more turrets than it actually has in game. The box art shows a Deimos with side turrets. A poster shows Shivan cruisers having beam weapons.

Rather than saying only gameplay is right and everything else is non canon, I say they're all canon but focusing on different aspects. All fighters can thrust like the anis and are very fragile like the cutscenes but go even faster than the game allows. Vasudan freighters are quite deadly to fighters but can still be defeated. The armament in the tech description is more true than the gameplay. Capital ships have side turrets.

Retail gameplay was more focused on the pilots because it had to be. The other media aren't constrained by the players and technical limitations and can tell a different story with different constraints.


Not contradicting gameplay canon is cool, but contradicting it would be quite awesome as well. Blaise Russell's new campaign contradicts story canon, but it wasn't less of a story because of it. It may even have been better since the fall wasn't in a couple of days!*

E: I'm not attacking your idea by the way. I'm just rationalizing mine with supporting material from official sources. ^_^;


*i didn't play yet unfortunately.

[BengalTiger]

Back in the day, the:

-GTF Apollo was the top of the line GTA fighter. It came equipped with 4x ML-16 laser guns, and 2 banks of either MX-50's or unguided rockets.
-GTF Angel, the predecessor of the Valkyrie, had 2 ML-16's, and only 2 main engines. Since it was a scout, I'd be willing to bet money it was much more fragile than the Val, to keep its high mobility regardless of the lower thrust.
-GTB Athena carried Synaptic bombs, which were the top of the line killing machines against... nope, not fighters. The tech description uses "ship" and "target" in singular form.

Try killing an Aten with ML-16's, dumbfire rockets and Synaptics.
Capships were adequately armed, and in fact the THT had nearly 2.5 times the range of the ML, not to mention its incomparable damage per shot, or nearly 2x greater sustained damage potential.
The Terran Turret, while outranging the ML by only a bit more than a quarter mile, had even more sustained damage potential than the THT.

Then FS 1 began, several new weapons were introduced to fighters and bombers, and capital ships were left behind in technology. I'd expect there to be some progress between FS 1 and 2, perhaps a velocity boost to turrets and a damage per shot boost for huge turrets- which would then quickly become obsolete and replaced by Flak and beams.

A good starting point for a mod with weapons of the era between the 2 canon games would be to find where the beams and Flak appear and modding those turrets with better blobs.

All others were left untouched, and let's assume there was a reason for it (power supply, space available near those particular turrets, beams were designed to fit into the rebuilt and upgraded turrets, but the ones that remained stock weren't compatible, etc).

[Black Wolf]

-GTB Athena carried Synaptic bombs, which were the top of the line killing machines against... nope, not fighters. The tech description uses "ship" and "target" in singular form.

Nope, Synaptic wasn't available until the Shivans turned up, where it was explicitly called "new":

New Technologies: Hercules Fighter and Synaptic Cluster Bomb.
I am pleased to announce we have two new weapons to use against the Shivans, the Hercules Heavy Assault Fighter, and the Synaptic cluster bomb. You may study these in the Tech Room. They will prove very useful.

There are arguments to be made (It may have been new to the Galatea or whatever), but it almost certainly wasn't around for the TV War, when these capships were designed. The GTA probably had some kind of bomb, but we don't see it in FS1.

[Arpit]

The GTA probably had some kind of bomb, but we don't see it in FS1.

I always thought that the GTA used Fenrises and Leviathans for bombing action in the Pre-Great War era. 

[X3N0-Life-Form]

Well, they did have a bomber that didn't carry any of the anti-ship bombs displayed is FS1. It wouldn't be too far-fetched to assume the GTA had something lighter than the Tsunami to put in the Athena.

[MatthTheGeek]

Racks of Furies.

Those things do a number on cruisers, y'know.

[Phantom Hoover]

Basically, the state of military equipment in FS1 makes no sense whatsoever. This is not news.