[Polpolion]

Okay, I think I get it now.

---

TBP is dead, or done or whatever, which means they've released a really buggy version and have stopped working on it. Meanwhile, all the people who encounter these bugs expect the SCP coders to manipulate the code so TBP works, instead of the other way around.

When the SCPers got tired of this, they asked the TBP staff to fix TBP bugs, so the SCP staff wouldn't have to fix TBP bugs. But that involved posting on their "dead" internal, which for some reason they cared about that even though it was a dead project.

So the TBP staff got angry. Why should TBP staff have to fix bugs in TBP? The project is done! The TBP staff wants TBP to be unsupported, for some odd reason. But then the public doesn't like that. Tough luck, TBP says. This is what TBP released and you can't modify it because we put a lot of work into it, and it would be disrespectful to fix our bugs for us.

---

Is this right? Because that's sure as hell what it seems like.

[Shade]

Given that none of the active TBP team members have actually spoken up about it on this thread (IPAndrews has stated multiple times lately that he considers himself done with it and thus can hardly be called an active member anymore), I'd be careful about generalizing about what the TBP staff wants based on what's been said here. It's pretty clear how the people posting feel about it though.

Just as the SCP team isn't just one person, neither is the TBP team.

[Polpolion]

Given that none of the active TBP team members have actually spoken up about it on this thread (IPAndrews has stated multiple times lately that he considers himself done with it and thus can hardly be called an active member anymore), I'd be careful about generalizing about what the TBP staff wants based on what's been said here. It's pretty clear how the people posting feel about it though.

Just as the SCP team isn't just one person, neither is the TBP team.

I did say that that's what it seems like; I figured that any active members would have posted about this already. I really don't want to offend anyone, but please, someone who does both care and have the time, get this all straightened out.

EDIT: Yeah, I guess it was kind of out-of-line, but this entire situation seems kind of out-of-line, even though that doesn't justify it. :/

[Bobboau]

As one of the many people who enjoy TBP, i find this appalling. There are known issues with this mod, and the people producing it are REFUSING TO FIX THEM???

you are close it's actually not so much 'the team refusing to fix them' as it is 'the most recent leader throwing a hysterical hissy fit if anyone suggests that it be fixed'. such a disciplined and responsible position.

and IP if a project is 'final'ized before completion then the proper term for that is 'abandoned'. maybe one of the older leaders of the mod should come in to offer the support you are so vitriolically opposed to providing.

and I find it particularly amusing that the SCP telling you that you need to fix problems with your project == the SCP thinking they own your project. wouldn't the SCP trying to fix problems with your game content be this? if that is the only way to fix the problems doesn't that mean that if you refuse to fix them mean that you in fact think the SCP owns your project?

let me guess "IT'S FINAL ****COCK!"

It's not in my place to give other people's work as a gift. This would be a great disrespect to the enormous team that put so much hard work into TBP, and their decision to end development of their game. On the other hand if you wish to start your own B5 total conversion for FS Open please, please go ahead. I'd love to see it  .

you have a funny way of showing your 'respect' not 'allowing' someone to fix your bugs. I mean not only stopping trying to fix the problems your self but trying to road block others? I have a feeling that the many people over the years who have come and gone on this project expected continual development, never an end to support, this is something heartless corporations do not fan games. in fact I'm absolutely certain at least some of them were expecting this because that is what I thought when I was working on it as a content provider, I don't have that little purple icon under my name because it's fashionable and I never decided 'my' (your words here) game should ever end, that is entirely you and tomcat who made those choices.

[ARSPR]

No intention about offending, (sorry because I'm not native English speaker so I could be saying things that I don't actually want).

Is it just me who thinks that some TBP members have gone mad or behaving like little children?

What I get is that:

• They say TBP is not going to be updated by them because whatever reason (I don't have any more free time, I'm bored of TBP, "Real Life" has hunted me down or whatever). Any of them is fully valid as all the work we can enjoy here is FREE work, nobody is paid for it.
• They agree that SCP or any other won't fix any code bug based on their buggy data (because this buggy data makes code bug debugging a PITA to work with).
• SCP crew members pointed this to them and asked for the data to be fixed. But as they did on an internal forum, some TBP members get really angry because they feel that this is some kind of "privacy" agression.
• OTOH it seems that there are people willing to create a "fan-made" patch (as "official" does not exist anymore).
• But nevertheless, some TBP members still don't agree on that.

Maybe I'm completely dumb but the whole thing seems the BIGGEST absurd and stupid discussion I've seen in my whole life. We are all supposed to be mature people, who work hard for our lives and then spend some time with a game we love. Come on!, we are not in the kindergarden anymore.

I don't belong to either SCP or TPB, but I do really think "official TBP" possition is just crazy.

(If the real world is run by things like that, NOW I understand Middle East conflict, religion wars, Italy goverment vs. judges trouble about that poor girl, and so on...)

[karajorma]

TBP is dead, or done or whatever, which means they've released a really buggy version and have stopped working on it. Meanwhile, all the people who encounter these bugs expect the SCP coders to manipulate the code so TBP works, instead of the other way around.

This is true to a certain degree but it's more a case that the large number of bugs in TBP prevent coders from actually fixing legitimate code bugs too as it makes it much harder to tell what is a data bug and what is a code bug.

[IPAndrews]

TBP's final status:

I am not going to discuss the decision the TBP *team* made to end development of TBP here. It was an internal decision. No public consultation was required. It is not up for being second guessed. It is not up for debate. It will not be reversed. It is none of the SCP team's business. It is none of the public's buciness. All things come to an end. It was our right to bring it to an end. We did. Last year!

I cannot make it any clearer and I hope (although I would be pleasantly surprised) there are some reasonable people who can understand this.

Meanwhile this debate, is not a debate, the decision was made as discussed above. Also there appear to be four kinds of people visiting this thread. Megalomaniac SCP team members. SCP team members who don't want to be associated with megalomaniac SCP team members. Random members of the public jumping to odd conclusions from invented details. Oh and then there's me. Stubbornly 100% happy with the decisions my team made. So really given everyone is rooted in their positions we are all wasting our time. Let's go do something else.

[Flipside]

What we are waiting for feedback on is your opinion on a fan-made patch, there are fans who are willing to fix the problems, if you and the team don't want to do it, then fine, but there are still people who want to play TBP and they are willing to create a patch to do so. Now, I suspect this patch WILL get made one way or the other, no-ones asking you to do it, but they'd much rather you stated that this was ok, or at the very least, that you didn't care if they did so, because of respect of the work done so far.

[IPAndrews]

Flipside. That's actually a considerable suggestion. Post in the public forum with details of your proposal please.

[Flipside]

Ok, I'll get some input from the people who are interested in doing it, and make a post, I've just had a root canal so this very instant probably isn't the best time, still a bit groggy on the anaesthetic.

[ARSPR]

Flipside. That's actually a considerable suggestion. Post in the public forum with details of your proposal please.

Ok, I'll get some input from the people who are interested in doing it, and make a post, I've just had a root canal so this very instant probably isn't the best time, still a bit groggy on the anaesthetic.

I still don't understand WHY you have to ask anyone's permission about creating a patch...

I thought this was a fully FREE forum/content site. Unless you wanted to use any content for earning money, I thought you could use whatever you wanted, whenever you wanted, however you wanted.

I thought that people asking "Hey, I love your model/texture/code upgrade, can I use it in my mod?" was just a "politeness" issue, not a "legal" one. If I'm wrong, please tell me.

But I DO really HOPE I wasn't wrong. The other way would seriously dissapoint me about how this community worked, (although, in that case, I do know that it would be just my problem  ).

[Dilmah G]

Well it IS basically politeness. I mean it is THEIR work, least you can do is show them some respect, lest be trash-talked by everyone else on here about your lack thereof. But you're right I think, it's legally okay to use them.

[Flipside]

It is, but it's a simple question of manners, permission doesn't HAVE to be obtained, but I'd personally much rather reach an amicable solution to this than have bad blood between the people involved. The fact of the matter is that Hard Light owes a great deal to the work that IPAndrews and the rest of the team put into TBP, and, although I don't always agree with him, I do understand how he feels, God knows, if I spent as long as him on a project, I'd be pretty sick of editing it too, and it's all too easy to assume that, since I am prepared to re-open the project once, that I was prepared to continue updating it. IPA is right in saying that you have to find a place to draw a line.

If an agreement can be reached, where the fans themselves can do these updates, and it can be endorsed by the team, not as an official update, but an official fan update, then it solves a lot of problems, no bad blood, the patch can be available in the TBP Forums themselves, which makes life easier with regards to obtaining it, and the fans themselves become responsible for maintaining the project they love, which is, after all, what the TBP team have been encouraging them to do for ages, by allowing them to create new campaigns etc, this is merely an extension of that.

[ARSPR]

Well it IS basically politeness. I mean it is THEIR work, least you can do is show them some respect, lest be trash-talked by everyone else on here about your lack thereof. But you're right I think, it's legally okay to use them.

I hope you're right...

So what kind of impoliteness arieses if someone tries to aid you by fixing your own bugs? More over when either you don't want to do it or you cannot do it.  

Also I don't play TBP, but I haven't seen SCP people saying TBP work is worthless. In fact all the people says it's a great mod. But nevertheless, they just say that TBP data is buggy. And this is a fact, not an opinion. So there cannot be impoliteness when you are just posting facts.

[Dilmah G]

Well it IS basically politeness. I mean it is THEIR work, least you can do is show them some respect, lest be trash-talked by everyone else on here about your lack thereof. But you're right I think, it's legally okay to use them.

I hope you're right...

So what kind of impoliteness arieses if someone tries to aid you by fixing your own bugs? More over when either you don't want to do it or you cannot do it. 

Also I don't play TBP, but I haven't seen SCP people saying TBP work is worthless. In fact all the people says it's a great mod. But nevertheless, they just say that TBP data is buggy. And this is a fact, not an opinion. So there cannot be impoliteness when you are just posting facts.

I wasn't referring to that in particular, but just the use of someone else's product without their permission/opinion.

[Flipside]

I think things generally got off on a wrong footing, the crux of the matter is there are problems, and as long as someone is prepared to fix that, that is enough for the SCP team, the TBP team have drawn a line under the work they are willing to do on the project, and that, also, needs to be respected.

Anyway, this has calmed down a bit, and I'd like it to stay that way, I'd very much like for this to be resolved without any further incidents on either side, so, I'd personally suggest that this thread is now locked, and we continue the discussion about how the fans can approach this in the TBP Forums, since further discussion here is pointless, and I don't want it to flare up again.

I'm not going to lock it myself, I'll leave that decision up to an Administrator.

[IPAndrews]

TBP data is buggy. And this is a fact, not an opinion. So there cannot be impoliteness when you are just posting facts.

No that is not a fact. TBP was developed to provide a stable end user experience for 3.6.9 and that's exactly what it does. Check your facts before making such statements in the future.

[karajorma]

Well to be fair there are some 3.6.9 bugs too. 3.6.10 merely makes them more apparent. It's the difference between getting a warning every time in 3.6.10 debug or occasionally suddenly finding yourself staring at an MS error message in 3.6.9 release.

For the most part TBP works well on 3.6.9 or 3.6.10 release builds.

[IPAndrews]

difference between getting a warning every time in 3.6.10

Warnings don't affect end users. They play using retail not debug.

[karajorma]

Yeah but the crashes do. Like I said, 3.6.10 debug makes the issues much more apparent.

TBP does occasionally crash for no apparent reason. Not often. I've had some commercial games crash more. But it does.