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Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: Vidmaster on September 28, 2009, 01:24:26 pm

Title: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on September 28, 2009, 01:24:26 pm
Damn, check that new teaser out! (http://www.interstellarmarines.com/info-center/media-article-videos/)
the company had some serious problems during the last months but it seems it's actually going forward again!  :nod:


Oh I am a Spearhead Member of course.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: SpardaSon21 on September 28, 2009, 01:36:48 pm
For someone who has no idea what Interstellar Marines is about, would you please explain?  It looks cool and all, but I know nothing about it.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on September 28, 2009, 05:05:54 pm
Alright...
Interstellar Marines is an Indie Game trying to do the impossible, making a TripleA title without any publisher. Funds come from the families of the devs themselves and from the community.
The goal is to essentially make the ultimate FPS game, to go back to the golden area of gaming where video games were something intelligent and smart, not full of concessions for the mainstream crowd. Think the classic LookingGlass Games for example (Thief, DeusEx, SystemShoch). A real, believable Sci-Fi Military Shooter telling a complex, almost philosophical story, portraying humanity's first contact with an alien species in a realistic way. No Halo peypey-Laserguns, no corridor shooter gameplay, actual environments and dynamic AI.
Plus it's designed to feature full 4 player coop and those devs have developed a special technology for voice chats. I am under an NDA (as is everybody who has seen the footage) so I can't talk about it but it is probably the most innovative sound technology since the SoundBlaster.

Does that sound interesting to you?  :D
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on September 28, 2009, 05:45:04 pm
I'm pretty sure 'actual environments and dynamic AI' were what Halo was about.

Sounds ambitious. Promising, perhaps.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Stormkeeper on September 28, 2009, 06:28:51 pm
Grooovy. I've been keeping a close eye on it, and was kinda upset by their financial state recently.

But it looks like their back in action.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on September 29, 2009, 12:40:39 pm
I'm pretty sure 'actual environments and dynamic AI' were what Halo was about.

Before Microsoft bought Bungie, yes! In the first game, you could actually see a bit of these leftovers in the level design of Level 3 Silent Cartographer, which was the best level in the game. The whole second half of the game was horrible and I don't even want to start to talk about the sequels. BUT THIS WON'T TURN INTO A HALO DISCUSSION, we have plenty of topics for that.

Actual enviroments goes much further than that. Remember SystemShock1 or Thief 2? Levels were actual places, not levels or a series of corridors with one open door each. Interstellar Marines wants to go to the next level by adding all furniture, water tubes, electrical systems and so on to these places. You can damage the power supply for example which will do much more than just turn off the lights.

I am really curious who this new investor is. They dropped some hints that it's actually sb from the community.
Hell, I would have done it myself if I had the economic power, a game like this could reinvent the genre on it's own and sell huge numbers if you promote it right and choose the right release date (summer ;7)
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: stuart133 on September 29, 2009, 02:54:04 pm
This looks truly awesome!!!!
If it is going to revert back to the good old days then I don't even care what the graphics look like, though this looks beautiful  :)
I'll keep a close eye on it from now on
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on September 29, 2009, 04:11:00 pm
Hrm! Sounds a bit like Natural Selection 2, but with a single-player plot.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Locutus of Borg on September 29, 2009, 05:58:34 pm
Unfortunately reminds me of that....'game'....SPACE TRADER: Merchant Marine

:( hopefully it will actually be a game.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on September 29, 2009, 08:46:31 pm
What I'm getting from this topic is that this game is an impossiblity.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: mxlm on September 29, 2009, 09:51:27 pm
Landsharks in spaaaaace?

Well, hell, if they release it, I'll play it. Uh. After I upgrade my system.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: MR_T3D on September 30, 2009, 10:51:00 am

Actual enviroments goes much further than that. Remember SystemShock1 or Thief 2? Levels were actual places, not levels or a series of corridors with one open door each. Interstellar Marines wants to go to the next level by adding all furniture, water tubes, electrical systems and so on to these places. You can damage the power supply for example which will do much more than just turn off the lights.

I am really curious who this new investor is. They dropped some hints that it's actually sb from the community.
Hell, I would have done it myself if I had the economic power, a game like this could reinvent the genre on it's own and sell huge numbers if you promote it right and choose the right release date (summer ;7)
this sounds like exactly what i'd like to see in a game's level design.
I might just buy this game*
*depending on how well it runs on the compiuter i have at the time of its release.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on September 30, 2009, 01:13:07 pm
that this game is an impossiblity.

exactly. That's what it is at the moment and that is what these people and their fans and supporters (including me) trying to do anyway. We will NEVER get a game like that unless we do it ourselves, quoting from the lead designer.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on September 30, 2009, 01:17:38 pm
I for one support independent developers. Heck, even with FS we've probably done much more than any typical developer ever would.

...Most of my favorite games... which I find are also very cool/well done... come from independent/close-knit publishers. Good stuff.  :yes:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 01, 2009, 05:41:19 pm
Space Marines.

very original
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: carbine7 on October 01, 2009, 06:11:25 pm
I found that the character models desperately needed updating[Read Halo 1 graphics], but consider the relative lack of funding, ZPS has gone a very long way. If they can put out more information and such that increases the probability of a release, then I'll buy.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Polpolion on October 01, 2009, 06:34:45 pm
Space Marines.

very original

I actually don't think that Space Marines are cliched yet because every attempt at making them has been generally done wrong. You could convince me otherwise by directing me to any excellent and enthralling game where you are a space marine that I haven't played yet.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 01, 2009, 08:10:10 pm
It's been done a lot because no one wants to play Space Missile Tech 3rd Class.  It's the most interesting thing that can be played as (that would make a simple enough game for good sales.  That or Space Ship Captain, and that is a whole different ship boat, and also been done to death) IN SPACE (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlekt6mtovm4vne?from=Main.RecycledINSPACE).
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Polpolion on October 01, 2009, 08:23:02 pm
Just out of curiosity, what games are of the "space marine" genre? Am I just not playing them? The only thing that would lead me to believe that it's over-done is the fact that people tell me it's over-done.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just not thinking it's cliched because every game that focuses around "space marines" that I've played, you can't actually differentiate yourself from normal marines aside from the fact that they always refer to you as "space" marines.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Tyrian on October 01, 2009, 09:15:47 pm
This looks interesting.  I'll have to check it out in more detail later. 

If they're as focused on realism as they say, I hope they implement an energy management system into the power armor.  It seems like something that should be there.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 01, 2009, 11:34:39 pm
Just out of curiosity, what games are of the "space marine" genre? Am I just not playing them? The only thing that would lead me to believe that it's over-done is the fact that people tell me it's over-done.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just not thinking it's cliched because every game that focuses around "space marines" that I've played, you can't actually differentiate yourself from normal marines aside from the fact that they always refer to you as "space" marines.

Section 8?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 02, 2009, 12:38:15 am
Not very space-y.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 12:39:17 am
Well, I mean, you're definitely a space marine.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 02, 2009, 01:10:16 am
Well, I mean, you're definitely a space marine.
No.

THIS is a space marine:
(http://media.giantbomb.com/uploads/3/33400/1040488-warhammer_40000_space_marine_20090527040214625_000_super.jpg)

Everyone else claiming to be a space marine = pussy
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 01:30:24 am
I know all about the 40K tradition, but Section 8 isn't honestly far off. Just less...metal.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Fury on October 02, 2009, 02:46:35 am
http://www.spacemarine.com/#/en/trailers/
Initial release is for consoles only, no word yet whether we'll see PC version.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2009, 05:34:41 am
Just out of curiosity, what games are of the "space marine" genre? Am I just not playing them? The only thing that would lead me to believe that it's over-done is the fact that people tell me it's over-done.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just not thinking it's cliched because every game that focuses around "space marines" that I've played, you can't actually differentiate yourself from normal marines aside from the fact that they always refer to you as "space" marines.

I think in general people consider space marine games to be any that involves space, aliens and/or powersuits (see Gears of War, Resistance, Half-Life etcetera). Though a lot of those are just marines fighting against space aliens.

Of the games I've played where the hero actually goes and/or lives in outerspace and is a marine:
Alien vs Predator 1+2
Halo 1-3
Doom 3 + xp
maybe Pariah (I can't really remember, it's been ages since I played this bargain bin game)

Personally I prefer sci-fi to modern shooters (bleah, Counter-strike) so I'll take space marines anyway. Though the only enthralling game I've played in recent memory was Thief 1+2 which are hardly new and hardly space marines.

Well, I mean, you're definitely a space marine.
No.

THIS is a space marine:
<snip>

Everyone else claiming to be a space marine = pussy

I don't know, if it's a choice between Colonial Marines who go into battle with bare minimum of armour and 40k space marines who go into battle in fully encased powersuits, I'd call the latter the sissies myself. Hey buddy, lose your armour, go up against a pack of genestealers and then you can call yourself a real marine.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 02, 2009, 05:52:14 am
I don't know, if it's a choice between Colonial Marines who go into battle with bare minimum of armour and 40k space marines who go into battle in fully encased powersuits, I'd call the latter the sissies myself. Hey buddy, lose your armour, go up against a pack of genestealers and then you can call yourself a real marine.

To be totally fair to them, the armor makes no difference to the genestealers in the fluff. Indeed, Tactical Dreadnaught armor doesn't either. (On the tabletop, however...)
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 02, 2009, 05:55:54 am
Any large biological cretaure that is a threat to a sci-fi warrior in anything except huge number = utter stupidity.

The weapons and armor science can come up with PWNZ anything biological.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: redsniper on October 02, 2009, 07:50:06 am
Any large biological cretaure that is a threat to a sci-fi warrior in anything except huge number = utter stupidity.

The weapons and armor science can come up with PWNZ anything biological.
Don't underestimate nature, man....
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 09:15:08 am
Any large biological cretaure that is a threat to a sci-fi warrior in anything except huge number = utter stupidity.

The weapons and armor science can come up with PWNZ anything biological.

Oh, god, we've triggered TrashMan's kneejerk reflex to lash out against things he considers uncool.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 02, 2009, 09:45:19 am
Space Marines!
(http://spaceaboveandbeyond.tv/graphics/cgi/hammers.gif)
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 02, 2009, 11:26:52 am
Oh, god, we've triggered TrashMan's kneejerk reflex to lash out against things he considers uncool.

No, not uncool. Extreemely unlikely and stupid.
That's because technological evolution is fast and focused.

Find me an animal that can take out a main battle tank. You can't? Now imagine a battle tank of 24th century. To put it simply - ain't gonna happen!
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 12:00:52 pm
Technological design is fast and focused, and unlike evolution, it can be proactive rather than reactive. So you're completely right, technology kicks evolution's ass.

However, this doesn't mean that there's nothing that will ever threaten an armored space marine, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. We may be able to adapt faster than evolution can, but if we run into something that's already incredibly badass, it could probably do some real damage. And that's not even getting into the problem of intentional, directed biological evolution, like the Zerg or the Flood.

And in any case, the last engagement between nature and high-technology didn't go so well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Connecticut_%28SSN-22%29)...we're lucky she was 'able to complete her mission and return to base under her own power.'
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 02, 2009, 12:30:56 pm
Quote
Any large biological cretaure that is a threat to a sci-fi warrior in anything except huge number = utter stupidity.

The weapons and armor science can come up with PWNZ anything biological.

Ever watch "Jaws"?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 02, 2009, 12:32:47 pm
Somebody needs to read War of the Worlds again.  :P
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 12:46:31 pm
Somebody needs to read War of the Worlds again.  :P

Haha, yeah.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: stuart133 on October 02, 2009, 01:18:52 pm
I can't believe that no one has said Quake II. You are part of the US space marines!! And you drop out of a huge ship in space and do some general marines stuff. To be a space marine you don't have to fight in space just be inserted by space drop (orbital). Today's marines assault from water hence marine, they don't fight in water.
That is only the SBS, so maybe those who actually fight in space could be the Special space service!
 Oh and yeah I know originally the marines fought on ships so the men who guard the spaceships are also marines I guess
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: MR_T3D on October 02, 2009, 01:21:02 pm
if this game has a mission where you start out outside a spaceship, then are able to selet your breach locations, i'd caall badasss and ready up paypall
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Polpolion on October 02, 2009, 02:18:22 pm
Quote from: several people
Alien vs Predator 1+2
Halo 1-3
Doom 3 + xp
maybe Pariah (I can't really remember, it's been ages since I played this bargain bin game)
Section 8
Space Marines


This list doesn't convince me that a space marine character type is over done. Then again, I haven't played AvP. I played Halo 1 until it became apparent that I thought it was a terrible game. I also felt Doom 3 was a terrible game and that you couldn't differentiate normal marines from the space variety, I haven't played Pariah, Section 8 just came out so it is hardly contributing to any cliche, and and that WH40k game isn't out yet, and the WH40K concept itself is independent from video games.

I honestly don't think that "Space Marine" is a concept that can be cliched. That's like saying racing games where you drive a car are cliched. There are different aspects than space marine that cliche the games.

Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 02, 2009, 02:36:20 pm
Probably need to actually define the term since it seems Space marine is kind of generic

Overpowered goons (not necessarily marines) in flashy armor set in the future ala
-Gears of War
-Doom

"The Corps" in Space ala
-Colonial Marines from Aliens
-Space Above and Beyond

Power Armoured, genetically modified space knights that know no fear
-Warhammer 40K Space Marines
-Halo 

I suppose if you mean the first category of generic overpowered future soldier that saves the world from aliens then I suppose.  Actually a more realistic based space marines game would be kind of cool.  Something like the old Rainbow/Ghost Recon style squad based stuff set in the near future would be pretty fun.

-Fixed for Battuta Justice!
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 02:38:26 pm
Dude, move Halo down to the 'power armoured, genetically modified space knights that know no fear.' Not to the same extent, but it's not some random Joe in armor.

And the Spartan-II project has depth and tragedy behind it that really is pretty impressive. Check out I Love Bees.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 02, 2009, 02:40:39 pm
Zero Point Software always compares their "Interstellar Marines" to "Delta Force" and other highly specialisied soliders.
Still, no power armor, super powers, shields, laser guns, ...

The original rendered trailer (ingame looks far better and more realistic) from 06 shows what they are aiming for. Like I said, the Spearheads had the chance to check out the Demo but we are under an NDA. It's awesome, trust me.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 02, 2009, 02:49:02 pm
I suppose I'm going to hell for staying OT but it just popped in my head to wonder what combat between battle armored Marines from the Honorverse would be like.  As far as I can recall I've never seen that instance occur in the books, it's always been battle armor against soft targets.  I figure plasma rifles and maybe tribarrels can still go through battle armor but I'm not sure if the standard infantry guns are affective against them?  If neither are carrying a heavy weapon does it revert to hand to hand?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 02:51:59 pm
I suppose I'm going to hell for staying OT but it just popped in my head to wonder what combat between battle armored Marines from the Honorverse would be like.  As far as I can recall I've never seen that instance occur in the books, it's always been battle armor against soft targets.  I figure plasma rifles and maybe tribarrels can still go through battle armor but I'm not sure if the standard infantry guns are affective against them?  If neither are carrying a heavy weapon does it revert to hand to hand?

That's a good question. I assume their weapons would rip each other up.

Zero Point Software always compares their "Interstellar Marines" to "Delta Force" and other highly specialisied soliders.
Still, no power armor, super powers, shields, laser guns, ...

Colonial Marines style? ****in' A.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 02, 2009, 03:13:22 pm
On the subject of Space Marines...

Dead Space anyone? C'mon, those guys were ****ing creepy
Well... I don't know if they could be considered Space Marines, but they were the result of. That can also be related to the Evolution against Technology and the large numbers thing.



But until I play to game for myself, I wasn't too impressed about the enemy (though original it was).
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 02, 2009, 03:46:07 pm
The landshark? I think it's a great idea. But that's just one of the enemies, probably only appearing in a single level, the second one, in which you are dispatched to a biological research facility.

We were not shown the main enemies yet, if there is something you can call that in the first game. Humans, robots, walkers, security systems and those aliens are supposed to be out there too  ;7
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: mxlm on October 02, 2009, 03:53:09 pm
Somebody needs to read War of the Worlds again.  :P

God no. A civilization with ridiculously advanced technology that hasn't heard of microbes? **** that.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 02, 2009, 03:59:14 pm
The point the book makes is a valid one, though. The Europeans didn't wipe out their American competition through military force, after all. They had biological superiority based on years of living with domesticated animals in crowded urban environments.

If we ever meet life-forms remotely similar to our own then we may be at similar risk.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 02, 2009, 04:26:18 pm
Somebody needs to read War of the Worlds again.  :P

God no. A civilization with ridiculously advanced technology that hasn't heard of microbes? **** that.

I'm sure they've heard of them but maybe they didn't account for them. There's a difference.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 02, 2009, 04:29:44 pm
The landshark? I think it's a great idea. But that's just one of the enemies, probably only appearing in a single level, the second one, in which you are dispatched to a biological research facility.

We were not shown the main enemies yet, if there is something you can call that in the first game. Humans, robots, walkers, security systems and those aliens are supposed to be out there too  ;7

Ah, so the shark isn't the main focus of the game then
That changes things immensely
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Rodo on October 02, 2009, 06:45:15 pm
no one thinks about deadspace?, I just finished it a week ago and I still have to grab my cup with two hands..

the zero grav environment is kinda cool also, specially with all the bodies floating around.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 02, 2009, 07:11:45 pm
no one thinks about deadspace?, I just finished it a week ago and I still have to grab my cup with two hands..

the zero grav environment is kinda cool also, specially with all the bodies floating around.

I mentioned it
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 02, 2009, 07:15:26 pm
I suppose I'm going to hell for staying OT but it just popped in my head to wonder what combat between battle armored Marines from the Honorverse would be like.  As far as I can recall I've never seen that instance occur in the books, it's always been battle armor against soft targets.  I figure plasma rifles and maybe tribarrels can still go through battle armor but I'm not sure if the standard infantry guns are affective against them?  If neither are carrying a heavy weapon does it revert to hand to hand?

Path of the Fury, by Weber, though it isn't in the Honorverse has ground weapons and armor that correlate pretty well.  Fights are.... brutal, to say the least.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 03, 2009, 07:36:24 am
Somebody needs to read War of the Worlds again.  :P

I said LARGE biological creatures. Viruses don't count. And even if they did - a sealed envoromental suit takes care of that.


Technological design is fast and focused, and unlike evolution, it can be proactive rather than reactive. So you're completely right, technology kicks evolution's ass.

However, this doesn't mean that there's nothing that will ever threaten an armored space marine, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. We may be able to adapt faster than evolution can, but if we run into something that's already incredibly badass, it could probably do some real damage. And that's not even getting into the problem of intentional, directed biological evolution, like the Zerg or the Flood.

Do you honestly believe that?

A creature claw than can match a 30mm sabot round?
A carpace that is more resistant than our armor?

Inorganic materials have some very interesting advantages. And all organics have some very specific weaknesses that can easily be exploited.

Case in point - any bigger organic creature is a bag of water and cells. Let's have an small example, shall we?
Take Dr. Doom from the move, but instead of his skin being some ubermetal, have it be some uber-organic caprapce and let's call him Doomosaurus.
Now what would happen if you'd administer some nice flamethrower loving to Doomasaurus?
His organs would cook, his eye sockets would pop and we'd be left with cooked crab.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: redsniper on October 03, 2009, 11:20:18 am
Well, you're assuming it's terrestrial life here. Which is a huge HUUUUUUUUGE assumption. We quite simply can't know what alien life is like until we find some.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 03, 2009, 12:34:47 pm
Do you honestly believe that?

A creature claw than can match a 30mm sabot round?
A carpace that is more resistant than our armor?

Here you are, Armored Space Marine Bob. You have an armored power exoskeleton stealth suite, a railgun, a jump pack, a flamethrower, a lot of grenades, and links to some drones overhead. You're pretty well-equipped.

You have been deployed to Planet Y, which is known for relatively hostile lifeforms. You have been separated from your team due to enemy activity. Hooking into your satellite navigation system, you find a nearby predesignated rally point.

As you're heading that way, you pick up thermal and motion coming your way. It's some kind of life-form, a bit bigger than a tiger. There's no catalog for this planet yet, but you're not an idiot. You target the thing (through trees, foliage, and anything else in the way) and shoot it with your railgun.

The railgun projectile blips right through it without transferring any kinetic energy. That's okay, though, because your servo-assisted shot hits it right in the brain. It dies.

The moral of the story? 99% of the time any space marine will be able to handle the local fauna.

Now, here's the 1%.

Now you're on some freaky-ass low-gravity hell planet. Same scenario. There are no trees, but the clouds above are strange, ominous, dark. Vast, organic shapes move amongst them. The air is full of a strange haze. Upon closer examination, you realize it's not haze: it's a soup of tiny organisms, insects of some kind. Slow-moving but purposeful. They're caking on your suit, secreting some kind of nasty acid. Fortunately your suit isn't particularly reactive, so it shrugs it off.

The issue is your jump pack nozzles. They're thick in there, almost clogging them. Firing the pack would probably clear the blockage, but the chances of a backfire (gutting your suit) are pretty good. You check your railgun's protective housing, just to be sure - the naked rails are more vulnerable than your armor.

Lightning rumbles above you, leaping from cloud to cloud. About this time your drones overhead start dropping out of contact. You transit a climb order to the drones, ordering them to get above the cloud deck, wondering why their threat detection algorithms didn't already put them at a safe altitude.

Your sensors are futzing up, but you can see that some kind of enormous mass is settling towards you from the clouds above. Looking up, you see nothing. Only after some examination do you realize that there is an organism above you, something like an aerial jellyfish: extraordinarily diffuse, mostly water. There are nodes and organs scattered about it, visible as sacs and spines within its bulk.

Tentacles brush against your suit, probing, exploring. You check your hardseal - secure. Electricity crackles along the curves and recesses of the organism above you, this kilometer-wide colony creature. It sparkles with eerie phosphorescence.

Like a good space marine, you light it up. Flamethrower, then hive rounds from the railgun. It burns. Parts of it detonate in petroleum-fueled secondary detonations. Its flaming ruins settle over you and you stomp out of the burning mess and on towards the rally point.

Another one of the vast jellyfish creatures moves overhead. Bigger. Stranger. It unspools kilometer-long tentacles and probes at you. You open fire again, but the flamethrower washes over it harmlessly. On a world where the atmosphere itself could ignite, many of the big organisms are thermal-adapted. Your hive rounds shred organs within its bulk, but you see no real effect. Lightning crackles over its lobes, descends its tentacles.

You turn your attention to the probing limbs. Your left arm houses a monomolecular blade that will open tank armor. You sweep in broad arcs, cutting the tentacles away.

Abruptly, impossibly, you are jerked airborne. Thunder ripples over you. There is nothing holding you up. You check your EM sensors and find that you're being levitated by electromagnetic point manipulation - the trick they use to levitate mice in school. The creature has extraordinary capabilities. It must gather current differentials from the thunderclouds above. It can control electricity.

You take a risk and fire your jump packs. Propellant ignites, but the cake of organisms in the vent is too thick. Backblast blows safety hatches open and shreds the nozzles. The blast tumbles you, and for a moment you're free, but the leviathan above reclaims its lock on you.

More tentacles drape across you. You go for the big guns and fire anti-aircraft weapons into the soup above (wishing you had nukes.) They send compression waves through the cloud monster, and the patterns of lightning above begin to grow ragged. But your sensors tell you that another creature is edging in from the south.

The clouds are alive and they speak to each other. Perhaps they are all cells of one creature.

You cut away at the encroaching tentacles as rapidly as you can. They fall away in great, curtained sweeps. The sky above lights up blue as the creature does something, and the tentacles gathering around you (faster than you can cut - insubstantial, feathered, somehow congealing again behind your blade) come alive with current. Millions of volts. A thunderstorm's worth.

The yield of the average thunderstorm is nine kilotons. The creature channels that power into you. Your suit is nonconductive and protected against electrical attacks. You're fine. But the rails of your railgun, protruding from their housing, bend apart and detonate into a spray of projectiles. They patter off your suit and fall below. The flamethrower attachment detonates, tumbling you.

The shrapnel stops, hovers for a moment, and comes back your way. The creature throws them with its EM sense. They achieve respectable velocities but can't breach your armor.

Standoff. You're wreathed in current, but insulated. You can keep hacking at the tentacles with your monomolecular blade, but it's like trying to chop a jellyfish in half: they're not really substantial enough to cut.

Then the predators come. Symbiotes that live within the cloud creatures. Nine swift manta-shaped creatures, moving along the field lines in long, swift spirals. They hit you with their particular adaption: flammable jelly sprayed from an orifice on their undersides. The crackling current ignites it into something like napalm.

Your suit is good, but it can't defy thermodynamics. Inevitably, you cook to death.

When the military finds out what happens to you they abandon the planet and nuke the biosphere to the bedrock. Nothing ever lives there again. Technology wins! But, nonetheless, one space marine type ran into more than he could handle, and this just goes to show that although nature may be outclassed, it'll probably produce a few surprises.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Mongoose on October 03, 2009, 12:45:18 pm
...are you published?  And if not, have you ever considered trying? :D
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: redsniper on October 03, 2009, 12:59:18 pm
I would like to subscribe to your newsletter. :D
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Ransom on October 03, 2009, 02:01:13 pm
Show off. Why on Earth haven't you written a novel yet? Do you not want my money?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: mxlm on October 03, 2009, 04:13:23 pm
On that note, David Drake's Seas of Venus (http://www.webscription.net/10.1125/Baen/0743435648/0743435648.htm) and Redliners (http://www.baen.com/library/067187733X/067187733X.htm). Sure, sure, no powered armor. But 'advanced technology vs. wtfwildlife'? Oh yes.

Battuta, do you have a fanfic website or something I can browse? Pretty please?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 03, 2009, 08:36:35 pm
Quote
A creature claw than can match a 30mm sabot round?
A carpace that is more resistant than our armor?

(http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/8/81/Ultralisk_SC1_Art1.jpg)

I think that would pretty much sum it up with less words used (talking about you general)
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on October 03, 2009, 08:40:04 pm
I need a railgun. Now.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 03, 2009, 09:34:43 pm
Quote
A creature claw than can match a 30mm sabot round?
A carpace that is more resistant than our armor?

*picture of an Ultralisk*

I think that would pretty much sum it up with less words used (talking about you general)

The Zerg are not a naturally evolved species (set of species), and they are essentially technological artifacts built from organic matter using various kinds of unobtainium that allows them to match their technological foes. My point was to present a situation where the natural fauna, as part of a plausible ecosystem, could threaten a space marine type.

You're right, however, with regards to one point the Ultralisk brings up: you can probably build some truly incredible things biologically, including devices that match or even outstrip their technological counterparts in some respects. After a point, in fact, there's probably not much of a difference between the two.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 03, 2009, 09:43:06 pm
Landsharks in spaaaaace?

Hehehehe
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Topgun on October 03, 2009, 09:45:56 pm
(http://guidesmedia.ign.com/guides/15316/images/metroidprimeguide_58.jpg)

/thread
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 03, 2009, 09:48:03 pm
I don't think that thing could support its own body weight.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 03, 2009, 09:56:50 pm
You people are really starved for good fiction if that's your reaction to Battuta's not-much-florish-or-anything work. o.0
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 03, 2009, 10:10:57 pm
It might not be that heavy on the inside.  Just sayin'.

Anyway, that's Metroid Prime, which actually has composite ARMOR, not just carapace.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 03, 2009, 10:18:00 pm
You people are really starved for good fiction if that's your reaction to Battuta's not-much-florish-or-anything work. o.0

Seriously. It was pretty spare. Fragmented and broken too. Still, it at least wasn't bogged down in adjectives and odd constructions.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Mongoose on October 03, 2009, 10:33:34 pm
The spareness was one of the things I liked about it.  It was very much an in-the-moment sort of description, instead of feeling like some sort of scripted narrative.  But really, I was just amazed that he was able to come up with some sort of crazy, lightning-spewing, killer flying jellyfish creatures right off the top of his head just to prove a point. :p
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 03, 2009, 10:42:52 pm
(http://www.llamalicious.com/xcom/images/204.gif)
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 03, 2009, 11:28:24 pm
Quote
The Zerg are not a naturally evolved species (set of species), and they are essentially technological artifacts built from organic matter ...My point was to present a situation where the natural fauna, as part of a plausible ecosystem...

You're right, however, with regards to one point the Ultralisk brings up: you can probably build some truly incredible things biologically, ...After a point, in fact, there's probably not much of a difference between the two.

Pssh, semantics.

Building biological things could in a sense be related to technology, but it's still a creature of biological nature which was my point.
Maybe these landsharks are incredibly advanced forms of life. I wouldn't know, I didn't know this existed until a few days ago.
Besides, that thing could really move. Anything that you can't hit is always a tough foe regardless of how strong it's carapace is.

Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 04, 2009, 12:00:11 am
Perhaps this (http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Thresher_Maw) would qualify as a really Bad Thing to encounter, regardless of tech level? 
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Ransom on October 04, 2009, 04:56:35 am
You people are really starved for good fiction if that's your reaction to Battuta's not-much-florish-or-anything work. o.0
It's not stylistically or even technically impressive, no, but what is impressive is the level of confidence behind it. Of course it isn't of a professional standard - it's something he threw together to make a point on the internet. It still bespeaks a more than capable writer. I think I've got every right to react with fawning bedazzlement >:(
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 04, 2009, 06:04:56 am
It's not stylistically or even technically impressive, no, but what is impressive is the level of confidence behind it. Of course it isn't of a professional standard - it's something he threw together to make a point on the internet. It still bespeaks a more than capable writer. I think I've got every right to react with fawning bedazzlement >:(

Perhaps, but I'm used to extemporizing lengthy, highly analytic discussion on The InternetTM. The format changed here, true, but I'm not totally convinced that is enough to mark it out as something beyond the ordinary from stuff like The Shivan Manifesto or my subspace tactics discussion.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Ransom on October 04, 2009, 08:32:34 am
The Shivan...? Man, I'm just expressing my desire to see something more substantial of Battuta's writing. Is that all right with you, NGTM-1R?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 04, 2009, 01:44:49 pm
you can probably build some truly incredible things biologically, including devices that match or even outstrip their technological counterparts in some respects. After a point, in fact, there's probably not much of a difference between the two.

There's a point. Almost every technology invented nowadays is based on nature's solution for some problem. For example, take a look at the lotus effect. However, I need to add one other thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZR5sfj9A2M

man, I love this guy. Together with Yathzee and Daniel Floyd, he sits in Olympus of most enteraining but still very interesting video creators.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 04, 2009, 02:14:46 pm
The point the book makes is a valid one, though. The Europeans didn't wipe out their American competition through military force, after all. They had biological superiority based on years of living with domesticated animals in crowded urban environments.

And native americans didn't live "close" to nature? C'mon.
There was no biological superiority. It was just good/bad luck that a germ they weren't ready for jumped. It might as well gone the other way around.

Quote
*SNIPPED PARAGRAPH*

Interesting vision of a future space battle. However, that creature you're describing?
I wonder what freaky evolution would ever come up with sonmething like that..I consider bumping into my time traveling evil twin more likely.

Oh, and my rant was more directed to large-scale implications (battles) rather than a single marine. In some universe you have races that travel from planet to planet in organic, living ships and wage war (like Zerg, the Tyranids) Now THAT is bull****.

Not to mention that coming up with a silly creature doesn't prove anything. I can come up with rifles that fire miniature black holes, and as such can devour any creature you can come up with. This really is going nowhere.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 04, 2009, 02:27:15 pm
Quote
A creature claw than can match a 30mm sabot round?
A carpace that is more resistant than our armor?

(http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/8/81/Ultralisk_SC1_Art1.jpg)

I think that would pretty much sum it up with less words used (talking about you general)

Aha...because an imaginary fictionaly creature that makes no sense is somehow the ultimate proof?

People see an ant and say "You know, he can carry 50 times it's own weight! How dangerous would it be if it was as big as a human? Or bigger!" Thing is, it doesn't work that way.
Just cause some property exists doens't mean you can scale it up and improve it a thousand fold. Not to say that nature can't come up with amazing, effective and dangerous things.

We KNOW humans can build railguns that can cut trough tank armor if needed. We know we can build advanced alloys and servos.
There's nothing indicating that nature can keep up. Right now we're reaching redicolous levels of firepower and armor is falling behind.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 04, 2009, 03:12:43 pm
Quote
And native americans didn't live "close" to nature? C'mon.
There was no biological superiority. It was just good/bad luck that a germ they weren't ready for jumped. It might as well gone the other way around.

Sorry, friend. Time to bone up on your history. I recommend 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' by Jared Diamond. The Native Americans barely had any domesticated livestock, whereas the Eurasians lived close to pigs and cattle - disease incubators. It wasn't luck.

Quote
Interesting vision of a future space battle. However, that creature you're describing?
I wonder what freaky evolution would ever come up with sonmething like that..I consider bumping into my time traveling evil twin more likely.

Nothing hugely implausible about it. It's got a functioning ecosystem, an energy differential to exploit, and easy envisioned precursors.

Quote
Oh, and my rant was more directed to large-scale implications (battles) rather than a single marine. In some universe you have races that travel from planet to planet in organic, living ships and wage war (like Zerg, the Tyranids) Now THAT is bull****.

Fair enough, I guess, though odds are that the best spacefarers in real life will mimic organic methods (von Neumann probes and so on). There are already organisms on Earth that survive in the vacuum of space.

Quote
Not to mention that coming up with a silly creature doesn't prove anything. I can come up with rifles that fire miniature black holes, and as such can devour any creature you can come up with. This really is going nowhere.

Was it supposed to go somewhere? I thought the idea was to show that it's not always a case of TECHNOLOGY PWNZ BIOLOGY as you so boldly asserted.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Polpolion on October 04, 2009, 03:51:27 pm
There are already organisms on Earth that survive in the vacuum of space.

wat
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 04, 2009, 03:53:34 pm
Google 'tardigrades'. I guess 'from Earth' would be a better way to say that.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 04, 2009, 06:34:17 pm
Quote
Aha...because an imaginary fictionaly creature that makes no sense is somehow the ultimate proof?

Well, isn't fiction what we are talking about here?
Last I checked, there are no Space Marines in 2009. Nor are there railguns, huge laser beam canons, plasma rifles, concentrated particle rifle.

Quote
We KNOW humans can build railguns that can cut trough tank armor if needed.
Oh really now? Been to the Secret Level of the Pentagon or maybe a top secret CIA installation on the moon coming up with crazy technological advances unheard of?

How do you know that we can? Do you have the blueprints in your house?

This is fiction. When we talk fiction, we use fiction to support fiction.



Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on October 04, 2009, 06:42:32 pm
You are aware the USN is currently putting much time, energy, and money into research pertaining to railguns, don't you?

And you're never going to find a secret lab under the Pentagon. Only scheming generals. Research is what the desert's for.  :D
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Topgun on October 04, 2009, 06:48:14 pm
Railguns have been invented and tested, but they draw way to much power to be worth it right now.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on October 04, 2009, 06:58:25 pm
Railguns have been invented and tested, but they draw way to much power to be worth it right now.

^ This.

In fact, the concept of the mass driver is nothing new. Heck... there were conceptualizations of mass drivers back before the Twenties! Until an efficient method of producing/powering the mass driver is devised, however, you're not going to see Ted the Infantryman shooting someone with a 10mm round going at Mach 8. Which is a good thing.

Interesting article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: MR_T3D on October 04, 2009, 07:33:24 pm
Railguns have been invented and tested, but they draw way to much power to be worth it right now.

^ This.

In fact, the concept of the mass driver is nothing new. Heck... there were conceptualizations of mass drivers back before the Twenties! Until an efficient method of producing/powering the mass driver is devised, however, you're not going to see Ted the Infantryman shooting someone with a 10mm round going at Mach 8. Which is a good thing.

Interesting article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
DUH! I'm rolling Air force!
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on October 04, 2009, 07:36:31 pm
DUH! I'm rolling Air force!


 :wtf:

What the hell is that supposed to mean?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: MR_T3D on October 04, 2009, 07:48:14 pm
DUH! I'm rolling Air force!


 :wtf:

What the hell is that supposed to mean?
i bolded the Ted part, which is my name, and saying you were correct that
...you're not going to see Ted the Infantryman shooting someone with a 10mm round going at Mach 8. Which is a good thing.

Interesting article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
but not because of feasibility of railguns, instead for the fact that the instant a draft appeared which could force me into military service, that i would join the aiforce, not the army.
'twas a joke :lol:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on October 04, 2009, 07:56:56 pm
All good.  :yes:

Being a Cadet of the Air Force for about two years prodded me to ask what you meant. I've never encountered a more honorable organization of officers, enlisted, or civilians, than in the Air Force. There's no other branch I'd personally want to serve in.

Medical disqualifications can deny you of such things, though...
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 04, 2009, 07:57:42 pm
Quote
We KNOW humans can build railguns that can cut trough tank armor if needed.
Oh really now? Been to the Secret Level of the Pentagon or maybe a top secret CIA installation on the moon coming up with crazy technological advances unheard of?

How do you know that we can? Do you have the blueprints in your house?

This is fiction. When we talk fiction, we use fiction to support fiction.

He knows because he watched transformers  :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 04, 2009, 08:53:34 pm
Quote
You are aware the USN is currently putting much time, energy, and money into research pertaining to railguns, don't you?

Consider me out of the loop

Source?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on October 04, 2009, 09:40:18 pm
There's actually sparse info on that subject in the link I posted above.

Here's a more official link:

http://www.onr.navy.mil/emrg/electromagnetic-railgun.asp

Just a quick search of "USN railguns" will pull up a great many links. Try it!  :D

Just a thought: An A-10 with a railgun would be sheer overkill...
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: carbine7 on October 04, 2009, 10:08:34 pm
An A-10, meh compared to an Iowa outfitted with 3 tri-barreled railgun turets. That would pwn pretty much everything except subs and fighter-bomber swarms
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 04, 2009, 10:33:53 pm
Quote
(http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/8/81/Ultralisk_SC1_Art1.jpg)

Awww, the cute wittle ultwawisk...
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 04, 2009, 11:12:27 pm
An A-10, meh compared to an Iowa outfitted with 3 tri-barreled railgun turets. That would pwn pretty much everything except subs and fighter-bomber swarms

Or cruise missiles. And it wouldn't work without a whole ****-ton of support for spotting.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: carbine7 on October 04, 2009, 11:14:57 pm
true. by adding the fighter-bomber comment, I was referring to virtually all aircraft. But no fleet would be operating without at least one E-2 airborne, unless the carrier is gone which=screwed
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 04, 2009, 11:20:47 pm
It'd make for lovely fire support.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 04, 2009, 11:43:18 pm
Quote
Just a thought: An A-10 with a railgun would be sheer overkill...

Indeed it would be, but not as overkill as making a giant mirror that makes the energy obtained from the sun into one solid beam of sheer heat (reference to Die Another Day)

Quote
Awww, the cute wittle ultwawisk...

If you actually look at it's face, the big beady eyes can possibly remind you of your household pet


Let's not stray too far from topic now shall we
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 05, 2009, 02:02:08 am

Sorry, friend. Time to bone up on your history. I recommend 'Guns, Germs, and Steel' by Jared Diamond. The Native Americans barely had any domesticated livestock, whereas the Eurasians lived close to pigs and cattle - disease incubators. It wasn't luck.

Oh? And living in a jungle with kazillion of bugs or runnign around forests and praries butt-naked is soooo healthy and clean.


Quote
Nothing hugely implausible about it. It's got a functioning ecosystem, an energy differential to exploit, and easy envisioned precursors.


Really? Doesn't look like that to me. You got a massive jellyfish/amoeba cross that's 99% made out of water, somehow controls gravity and EM, is inhabited by parasites that use heat/electricity as a weapon (and don't boil the living s*** out of it), is as big as a mountain and apparently undetectable.
And conveniently, it's also faster than a marine and it has just hte powers needed to sabotage his tools. not to mention that tehy are in vastly different size categories. a kilometer-long creature? Why not a planet-sized while you're at it?


Quote
Fair enough, I guess, though odds are that the best spacefarers in real life will mimic organic methods (von Neumann probes and so on). There are already organisms on Earth that survive in the vacuum of space.

Yeah. Spores. We are talking about living being that have propultion capabilities to travel across the stars, enter and exit planet atmosphere wihout burning up and surive the extreems of space.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 05, 2009, 02:12:16 am
Oh? And living in a jungle with kazillion of bugs or runnign around forests and praries butt-naked is soooo healthy and clean.

Actually, surprisingly, yeah, it is. You need big population concentrations to get pandemics moving. That means cities. And you need domesticated animals.

I recommend 'Guns, Germs, and Steel', by Jared Diamond. Made a huge splash when it was published.


Quote
Really? Doesn't look like that to me. You got a massive jellyfish/amoeba cross that's 99% made out of water, somehow controls gravity and EM, is inhabited by parasites that use heat/electricity as a weapon (and don't boil the living s*** out of it), is as big as a mountain and apparently undetectable.

On a low-gravity world, it can't control gravity, it doesn't have any parasites (just symbiotes - just like your body, friend), it was clearly stated to be adjusted to extremes of temperature, it's not at all undetectable. Plus, it's a work of fiction to illustrate a point: nature surprises.

Quote
And conveniently, it's also faster than a marine and it has just hte powers needed to sabotage his tools. not to mention that tehy are in vastly different size categories. a kilometer-long creature? Why not a planet-sized while you're at it?

It was absolutely a contrived example. *shrug* Nonetheless, it fits its environment. I know you didn't read it particularly closely, and I don't expect you to make any kind of good-faith argument to see my side of things, even though I've done so for you. It's a bit hurtful that I've taken pains to acknowledge all your good points and yet you just toss aside anything I say. So it goes with you, I guess.

Quote
Quote
Fair enough, I guess, though odds are that the best spacefarers in real life will mimic organic methods (von Neumann probes and so on). There are already organisms on Earth that survive in the vacuum of space.

Yeah. Spores. We are talking about living being that have propultion capabilities to travel across the stars, enter and exit planet atmosphere wihout burning up and surive the extreems of space.

Spores? Living tardigrades survived ten days in outer space (including direct exposure to the sun), returned to earth, and produced viable offspring.

They can even take 6000 atmospheres of pressure, as a bonus.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 05, 2009, 02:48:05 am
Oh, and my rant was more directed to large-scale implications (battles) rather than a single marine. In some universe you have races that travel from planet to planet in organic, living ships and wage war (like Zerg, the Tyranids) Now THAT is bull****.

Not to mention that coming up with a silly creature doesn't prove anything. I can come up with rifles that fire miniature black holes, and as such can devour any creature you can come up with. This really is going nowhere.

You're missing the point. The Zerg and Tyranids do not represent naturally evolved creatures. They have been channeled, directed, down certain paths, extremely rapidly. Nature cannot match human firepower because we can direct our efforts in this regard. The Zerg and the Tyranids can also direct their efforts towards this; in fact they've done considerably more directing towards the purpose of warfare than we have.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 05, 2009, 09:54:17 am
Oh? And living in a jungle with kazillion of bugs or runnign around forests and praries butt-naked is soooo healthy and clean.

Actually, surprisingly, yeah, it is. You need big population concentrations to get pandemics moving. That means cities. And you need domesticated animals.

I recommend 'Guns, Germs, and Steel', by Jared Diamond. Made a huge splash when it was published.


Battuta speaks the truth, Europe was the right crucible to produce societies capable of crushing the rest of the world.  Among other factors the disease resilience and the pathogens they carried with them were devastating.  The diseases that where introduced to the native populations in South America raced up and down both continents wiping out much of the American Indian populations.  I believe their are records of the first colonizers of North America discovering community after community that had been completely wiped out by the plagues introduced from Europe.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 05, 2009, 12:48:15 pm
Regarding the europe and american native thing - you saiyng the fact that we moved there (with our germs) en masse (into their population centers) while they stayed there didn't play a cruical factor?

***

Battuta, I do see your side of the argument. Don't think that I don't respect nature or that I'm not occasionaly awed by the things it comes up with. Quite the contrary.

I'm just saying that I don't belive any purely biological creature will ever be able to match technologyin warfare.
Tyranids? Zerg? I find them laughable. It doens't matter if evolution was directed or not - the whole premise of carpace and claws/acid spit that outperfom real armor and weapons makes me cringe.

While a claw that might pierce modern armor could be feasable, I REALLY doubt it any carpace could withstand the kind of weaponry we're talking about. Nevermind the range and precision.
Game balance and canon fluff or reality have often very little in common.
In varius animation from the same games it allways takes overwheling numbers for the Zerg/Tyranid to do anything.
And frankly, spamming bullets is cheaper and faster than spamming zerglings.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 05, 2009, 12:56:42 pm
All right, I guess that's fair enough.

The Flood were, I think, the best example of how biology could overcome a technological civilization. They subsumed the knowledge and consciousness of their biological victims, but adapted their technology (including ships and weapons) to help spread.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 05, 2009, 02:05:08 pm
1)  Your assuming you have more bullets then the enemy has critters and that the enemy doesn't have the mentality of army ants.
2)  Humans are not infallible, in fact we are pretty arrogant and dumb sometimes.  Don't expect that we will apply the correct technology and tactics all the time.  One look at military history proves that without a shadow of doubt.

Sure humans can change tactics and deploy new weapons that will defeat an organic enemy but its absurd to assume technological superiority will win all the time every time.

The Battle of Yonkers from World War Z takes a few liberties with things I think, but the general ideas highlight how a conventional force might lose to organics.

Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Flipside on October 05, 2009, 02:07:08 pm
It's interesting to note that a very high percent of new 'super' materials are based on naturally occuring substances.

Now I'll admit, 'bigging up' doesn't always work in nature, but the thing about Tyranids, Zerg etc is that they are a combination of science and nature, you just only see the 'nature' side of it, but it's perfectly possible to have claws that can cut through steel, or even make spider-web that is incredibly strong, much stronger than steel cable, though, admittedly, I draw the line at internal energy weapons, the ability to spit acid that would eat through armour is not impossible if science is involved, since 'acid' is not a generic eat-all, it's simply a group of substances, so find the right substance and it would work, just as Hydrofloric acid will eat through it's glass container and yet is completely harmless to plastic ones.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 06, 2009, 06:46:13 am
This topic has gone far from the original subject, hasn't it?
Well, three days before the Vault opens (for me), five for all non-Spearheads. I am already hyped. They really are right, screenshots are so last-century.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: carbine7 on October 06, 2009, 01:45:14 pm
Same here, since I'm now a Spearhead. Gert's offer of secret.....'stuff' enticed my enough to put up my $40.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 06, 2009, 01:50:11 pm
that secret stuff is INCREDIBLE!!!

Well, mission successful Vid, at least one more Spearhead or Frontliner recruited.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 06, 2009, 02:22:57 pm
1)  Your assuming you have more bullets then the enemy has critters and that the enemy doesn't have the mentality of army ants.

Bullets don't need time to grow or nurturing. They are ready for action the second they step off the assembly line.
Drones, tanks? Same thing - you only need gas.
We allready have enough bullets to kill off the entire human population several times over.

So no. Despite what you've seen in Starcraft and Alien, an organism doesn't grow from a baby/larva stage to a ready warrior stage in minutes/hours.


Quote
Now I'll admit, 'bigging up' doesn't always work in nature, but the thing about Tyranids, Zerg etc is that they are a combination of science and nature, you just only see the 'nature' side of it, but it's perfectly possible to have claws that can cut through steel, or even make spider-web that is incredibly strong, much stronger than steel cable, though, admittedly, I draw the line at internal energy weapons, the ability to spit acid that would eat through armour is not impossible if science is involved, since 'acid' is not a generic eat-all, it's simply a group of substances, so find the right substance and it would work, just as Hydrofloric acid will eat through it's glass container and yet is completely harmless to plastic ones.

Dunno about claws that can punch trough solid steel. I can see them puncturing light armor if one thrusts with enough force, but heavy armor? No. From what I know about how claws/teeth/carpaces grow, I don't see how they can have the necessary strength.
Spitting acid is actually very believable (IIRC, there are a few animals that do that), but it would be severly limited by range and versatility (one type of acid).
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Flipside on October 06, 2009, 02:35:45 pm
Exactly, acid that ate through kevlar armour would, in all likelihood be utterly useless against steel armour on vehicles, the kinds of substances required would need to break down the links between molecules in entirely different ways, there are substances that will eat through pretty much anything in time, but time is a crucial part of the equation.

As for punching through solid steel, well, this is where 'bigging up' comes in, there's a shrimp, for example, that can kick through 1/8 inch glass, and this thing is tiny, but if the shrimp was human sized, it probably wouldn't produce the same power-weight ratio, same with fleas, if they were human-size, they could jump over a sky-scraper, but hitting the ground again would kill them, so just taking direct examples from nature and 'bigging up' doesn't really play out all the time, but I do think it's possible, when being externally guided' to produce organic mechanisms that could do that, although, I suspect the trade offs would be considerable, a creature that could do that would probably be incapable of performing any other battlefield role, but then, you could say much the same for various elements in a technological army.

Technologies real strength would come through fliers, I think, although I'll accept organic vessels that could live in space, or even travel faster than light, I struggle thinking of an organic variant that could handle atmospheric combat at supersonic speeds as well as technological solutions, from certain points of view, space is easy compared to an atmosphere.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 06, 2009, 03:40:03 pm
Quote
So no. Despite what you've seen in Starcraft and Alien, an organism doesn't grow from a baby/larva stage to a ready warrior stage in minutes/hours.

From what we know on this tiny little ball of rock called Earth.  All your posts are is a blanket dismissal of anything that we could say to have a good discussion.  We don't KNOW that organisms will do that, but we sure as hell don't know they CAN'T either.

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We allready have enough bullets to kill off the entire human population several times over.

There are also a gigantically large number of creatures that could kill people.  Enough to kill the entire human population several times over.  We just happen to be lucky that those things can and will eat things easier to get to than people.

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Dunno about claws that can punch trough solid steel. I can see them puncturing light armor if one thrusts with enough force, but heavy armor? No. From what I know about how claws/teeth/carpaces grow, I don't see how they can have the necessary strength.
Spitting acid is actually very believable (IIRC, there are a few animals that do that), but it would be severly limited by range and versatility (one type of acid).

I assume you have seen Jurassic park.  Granted, those have been dead for a while, but they were that big back then.  With the teeth to go through cars to match.  Maybe they wouldn't be able to go through dedicated tank armor, but just about anything else crumples under that force, if not outright pierced.

One thing to note:  Anything that could be conceivably encountered off Earth would not be able to single-handedly lay the whup-ass on everything we have.  However, that's because we have a lot more than one thing.  I would not be surprised if one creature or another is spectacularly effective against one or more of our weapons of war.  However, we just need to use something else then.

To sum up and reiterate:  Technology != PWNZORS ALL LIFE.  "Aliens" may not be able to completely defeat a military by strictly organic means, but that isn't what we (Battuta and the rest) are trying to argue.  It could happen, and dismissing it out of hand would get people killed (or, at least, would if it ever happened).
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 06, 2009, 03:45:48 pm
1)  Your assuming you have more bullets then the enemy has critters and that the enemy doesn't have the mentality of army ants.

Bullets don't need time to grow or nurturing. They are ready for action the second they step off the assembly line.
Drones, tanks? Same thing - you only need gas.
We allready have enough bullets to kill off the entire human population several times over.

So no. Despite what you've seen in Starcraft and Alien, an organism doesn't grow from a baby/larva stage to a ready warrior stage in minutes/hours.

That's actually probably the worst argument against biology. If there's one area where biology trumps technology, it's manufacturing. Forget bullets per person, do you know how many bugs there are per person?

Your problem here is you're comparing a full-sized warrior to a bullet, when you should be comparing a warrior (Zergling, xenomorph, whatever) with human beings. Let's instead compare a bullet and its production mechanism with a bullet-sized attack organism that some hypothetical alien race uses as an area denial weapon against infantry.

A bullet is a great way to kill things. It's congealed energy. Fired from a gun, it's pretty reasonably lethal. And you can fire a lot of them with great accuracy. When it comes to elegance, not much beats the good ol' human bullet.

To make a bullet, you need to set up a factory, which takes days to months. You need to ship in refined materials, which in turn requires refining plants in other areas, as well as skilled labor (or good machines) to run them. Those in turn require raw materials from mines. All of this requires infrastructure and transportation, which probably requires roads. You then need to mate the bullet with its symbiote, the gun, which requires a whole 'nother set of infrastructure.

You then have to give the bullet and gun to a soldier, who's been raised from birth as a generalist and only recently been instructed on how to use his bullet and gun. Said soldier represents thousands of man-hours of investment, as well as thousands (millions?) of regular dollars. Your overall man-gun-bullet system requires a huge amount of effort, just to get that single bullet to the point where it's actually ready to use.

So, your big advantage is that once you have a factory up and running, and a secure flow of raw materials, you can make bullets really fast and in great volume. Your disadvantage is that production is centralized, and that each individual bullet has no capability to create any more bullets.

Now.

Meet the bullet bug. It's an insect-type critter - not very big. It eats biomatter and certain chemical compounds that it hunts for. It has a keen sense of smell, swarm behavior, decent vision, excellent navigation (like a bee!) and a number of substrains. It is asexual, and born pregnant. Our hypothetical Biotic Tech Enemy has designed it, but it works alone just fine.

Introduce a bullet bug to an area, and it immediately begans consuming biomass. When ready, it dies, producing live bullet bug 'larvae' that mature within a day. These hatch new bullet bugs. They consume biomass as well.

By simple exponential growth the bullet bugs rapidly enter the triple and quadruple digits. At this point, pheremone signals trigger gamete differentiation. Some newborn bullet bugs are specialists. They may gather chemical materials for the bullet bug swarm. They may develop acid sacs, hardened tips, gunpowder charges, noisemakers, explosive phosphorous compounds, burrowers, or an electromagnetic sense.

Throughout all this they continue to multiply - remember, they're born pregnant. Burrow specialists create underground hives so that the bullet bugs can feed on topsoil and move without easy detection, but these hives are non-centralized, and the majority of the bugs simply roam. Other bugs spit digestive compounds that render normally inedible materials useful to the bullet bug swarm. Solar bugs gather in enormous mats and convert sunlight into simple organics for feeding. Gas bugs metabolize compounds they're fed into toxic plumes (working, obviously, in large numbers.) Current bugs clamp onto power lines and sap electricity for more insidious broods, including lightning bugs that can actually work in swarms to carry considerable charge.

Now, the development of a good swarm requires a great deal of energy. But because each individual bullet bug is capable of feeding and reproducing, the effort is non-centralized and limited only by local resources.

In the meantime they engage in area denial behaviors. Some bullet bugs dig long tunnels in metal, wood, or concrete buildings. Gunpowder bullet bugs hide in these areas; they will explode when triggered, acting as improvised bullets. Other bugs deliver potent neurotoxins to unprotected enemies. Armored humans can be smeared in phosphorous compounds, and unless their armor is top-grade, they will be vulnerable to depolymerizing compounds or the destruction of their sensors. Flare bugs are the swarm's armor-piercing solution; they achieve physical contact with hostile armor and then ignite, much like anti-material grenades. Either that or digestion bugs can splat themselves on armor, releasing tailored solvents - oh, and the chemicals released from the dissolving armor by a successful solvent attack cue the rest of the swarm to amp up production of that particular solvent type. Adaptive anti-armor chemicals!

The simplest weapon of the swarm is sheer numbers. Due to rapid diversification and adaptation, they can be retarded but not eliminated through the deployment of toxins. The only effective countermeasure to their presence is fire (or possibly very high wind!)

All this, from a single bug, in a matter of days - without intelligence, preparation, or outside control.

Because, remember: DNA is the best damn storage medium there is. You can fit the information required for all these bullet bug variants into one little cell. That little bullet bug that drops in from space (oh, sure, they can survive in space too, they've got a vacuum strain, why not, it just hitches a ride in on a meteorite or whatever) is a frighteningly pluripotent weapon.

Now, I'd like to stress that these bugs are not particularly more effective than bullets. In a straight-up battle situation you can kill a lot more human beings firing bullets than firing bugs. But the bugs require no infrastructure to create. You can get millions of bugs in the same time that it takes you to just dig the hole that you're going to put a factory in. And while they don't work well against a crafty human foe with armored infantry and good tanks, well, neither do plain infantry bullets.

So, there you go. The bullet bug: an effective, economical, and competitive biological answer to the bullet. It has its own advantages and disadvantages. But, unlike a bullet, it requires no infrastructure, no training, no human element, no additional components, no storage area, no proper usage, and no serious investment of...anything. Drop a single bullet bug on an unready planet and you could take out an entire colony just by crop destruction.

Game over, man! Game over!
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Snail on October 06, 2009, 04:08:34 pm
Nice read.

+1
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 06, 2009, 05:41:37 pm
Seconded.  Creative, if not the most detailed.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 06, 2009, 05:53:23 pm
You guys are spoiled if you want ten minute make-it-up-as-you-go splurges to be detailed.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 06, 2009, 08:38:24 pm
The flaw, of course, being that this is effectively the biological equivalent of grey-gooing a world.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 06, 2009, 08:40:57 pm
How's that a flaw?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 06, 2009, 09:57:33 pm
The purpose of most military operations is ultimately to capture something, not to render it useless to anyone. Including yourself. It's much like the trap behind nuclear weapons. They're very good at destroying enemy units, terrible at letting you later occupy territory and make substantial use of it.

So grey gooing is a beautiful idea if you don't care about destroying the biosphere and rendering the planet uninhabitable and its resources useless to anyone, but if there's even the slightest chance you'll want to use it or its resources later than the Grey Goo is not the way to go.

Now, granted, you could just scorch the bugs from orbit or the atmosphere, then try and rebuild the planetary biosphere from scratch, but that's a lot of trouble to go to.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 06, 2009, 11:02:23 pm
I'm pretty sure that if you're the Biotic Aliens then the bugs are not going to be a major obstacle to you, since they're your weapons.

They may be very friendly to you. They may be xenoforming machines in their end-state. They may just be very edible.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 06, 2009, 11:32:27 pm
You lost me when you said "gunpowder bullet bugs"
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 06, 2009, 11:49:51 pm
If you don't think organisms can synthesize complex molecules then you are silly.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 07, 2009, 02:00:15 am
From what we know on this tiny little ball of rock called Earth.  All your posts are is a blanket dismissal of anything that we could say to have a good discussion.  We don't KNOW that organisms will do that, but we sure as hell don't know they CAN'T either.

We can make reasonable assumption with a good accuracy with the knowledge base we have today.
You're  "but it might exist somewhere in the universe" statement is no different "but the laws of thermodynamics might operate differently in another dimension" argument.
Highly unlikely.


Quote

There are also a gigantically large number of creatures that could kill people.  Enough to kill the entire human population several times over.  We just happen to be lucky that those things can and will eat things easier to get to than people.

Creatures have been breeding on Earth for millions of years. Guns have been around for 200. And we can kill pretty much the whole planet several times over with what we have now.

Quote

I assume you have seen Jurassic park.  Granted, those have been dead for a while, but they were that big back then.  With the teeth to go through cars to match.  Maybe they wouldn't be able to go through dedicated tank armor, but just about anything else crumples under that force, if not outright pierced.

Seriously, you use Jurrasic Park as some sort of fact. Jurrasic par kis fiction. Not to mention that cars aren't armored - if I hit it with my fist hard enough I can dent the thing. That's paper-thin.




Quote
*long post by Batutta*

Interesting read. Yes, you are right that organism can synthesize complex molecules - but unless they can synthesize a gun or a nuke, technology wins hands down i nthe firepower department.
You are right - factories take time and resources to set up - but once up they can produce massive ammounts of hardware at a breakneck pace. Not to mention - DRONES. Slap a gun on a AI controlled mecha and you can send it into battle with no training required.

One thing you're neglecting is that the "bugs" need biomass to grow. They need space. And they're pretty much constrained on one planet.
Ammount of metals/ores on a planet >>>>> ammount of biomass. You can produce more bullets and guns than there are bugs in the universe. Bugs need to eat. Bugs need to grow. Nukes don't.

Also - nanomachines. Van Neumann probes.
Automated factories. Factories that build factories?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 07, 2009, 02:37:15 am
I'm pretty sure that if you're the Biotic Aliens then the bugs are not going to be a major obstacle to you, since they're your weapons.

They may be very friendly to you. They may be xenoforming machines in their end-state. They may just be very edible.

The problem with a good area-denial weapon (like mines) is that this doesn't really work. If you work some sort of IFF into them, biological or otherwise, it can be spoofed...and biological replication and adaptive rapid evolution as is much more vunerable to breakdown in this than other forms of it. (Cancer, anyone?) So it has to blind, or nearly so, to friend/foe, to keep it effective. Or it'll just go blind anyways perhaps.

Hence my Grey Goo/nuclear weapons analogy. If we assume a similar level of sophistication between the two sides, this is a Grey Goo/nuclear carpet bomb attack and as such one should never expect to use the planet or at least any part of it not blocked off by large bodies of water again without extensive time passing (presumably the bugs will eventually run out of materials and trigger ecosystem collapse) or extensive, planetary-ecology-messing-up-or-destroying firebombing.

Unless you're posisting this is like the lowest thing in their arsenal and they totally overpower the technological force anyways, in which case even using them is pointless.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: MR_T3D on October 07, 2009, 08:43:43 am
yeah, a nuke uses relatively little matter, and is much faster to deploy and deny an enemy an area ;7
AND NGTM-1R is right, to make an IFF into the bugs can...and eventually would be... spoofed by a technology.
simply put, nukes pwn everything short of currently fictious energy sheilds , organic or not.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 07, 2009, 09:09:57 am
Trashman you keep changing the parameters of the argument every time some one brings up a good point.

You first demanded to know how an biological enemy could defeat an technological one

I pointed out viruses
- You threw out a pandemic and wanted to know how a tank could lose to a animal

Battuta puts together a scenario where a Space Marine is defeated by an organism
-You demand a battlefield scenario

I point out that if the enemy has locally more numbers then your deployed forces has firepower they will lose
-You change the argument to a industrial output one. 
 




Is there likely some sort of critter that can shrug off 120mm tank rounds and rip through Chobam armored MBTs?  Probably not. 

All things equal is it likely a biological enemy could defeat a technological society in a war? Probably not.

Are there scenarios where a biological enemy could defeat a technology driven one in battle? Damn straight there is.

You're not accounting for things like Intel, terrain, logistics, morale, numbers and the basic fact that humans make bad decisions sometimes.  Sure can you make a lot of bullets?  Yup, its the only reason we started using guns in the first place.  Their accuracy and penetration sucked compared to crossbows and their reload times where slower then bows.  Are all those bullets magically available at every point of contact with the enemy? No.  Your forces only carry the ammunition and fuel they can carry.  There is no hammer space in an MBT for pulling HEAT and SABOT out of.  If you deploy a mechanized division to stop an alien incursion and they use up all the ammunition they have locally available that division is going to be overrun, doesn't matter how many factories you have churning out bullets elsewhere.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 09:59:35 am
yeah, a nuke uses relatively little matter, and is much faster to deploy and deny an enemy an area ;7
AND NGTM-1R is right, to make an IFF into the bugs can...and eventually would be... spoofed by a technology.
simply put, nukes pwn everything short of currently fictious energy sheilds , organic or not.

When did this get to be about nukes? At all? This was a comparison with bullets. I am getting annoyed at people who don't read threads.

This IFF argument is kind of silly. Bullets don't have an IFF; that's up to whoever fires them. Same with whoever decides to deploy our hypothetical bugs at a target. Frankly I imagine our BioFoes aren't too bothered by the bugs or their actions; their end state (once they're in a 'secure area') might work as a xenoforming tool.

Quote
Interesting read. Yes, you are right that organism can synthesize complex molecules - but unless they can synthesize a gun or a nuke, technology wins hands down i nthe firepower department.
You are right - factories take time and resources to set up - but once up they can produce massive ammounts of hardware at a breakneck pace. Not to mention - DRONES. Slap a gun on a AI controlled mecha and you can send it into battle with no training required.

Factories produce at a linear pace from a centralized point with a big supply train. Our bugs here produce at an exponential rate, anywhere, foraging for their own supplies.

Drones require construction and programming, they can't make themselves. Plus, remember, these aren't meant to be compared with drones. They're meant to be compared with bullets.

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One thing you're neglecting is that the "bugs" need biomass to grow. They need space. And they're pretty much constrained on one planet.\

Bullets need metal to be manufactured, plus a huge factory and the manpower to run it. And they're constrained to...well, wherever they're sitting, unless somebody picks them up and moves them.

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Ammount of metals/ores on a planet >>>>> ammount of biomass. You can produce more bullets and guns than there are bugs in the universe. Bugs need to eat. Bugs need to grow. Nukes don't.

This is a comparison between bullets and bugs. Not nukes and bugs. If you make bullets out of an entire planet you'll have a lot of bullets, sure...but it'll take centuries. Millennia.

Quote
Also - nanomachines. Van Neumann probes.
Automated factories. Factories that build factories?

I already brought these up; thus my point about how the best technology will end up mimicking organic methods.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 07, 2009, 10:41:21 am
Instead of responding to many quotes, and responses...

Quote
Interesting read. Yes, you are right that organism can synthesize complex molecules - but unless they can synthesize a gun or a nuke, technology wins hands down i nthe firepower department.

Cockroaches have a high resilience to radiation. They can be killed by it still, but it takes more then the average human being.
Who's to say that there isn't an organism that actually thrives in high radiation situations? Maybe the explosion will kill him, or maybe it won't
Thing is though, who is to say that organism on other planets can't synthesize projectile weapons of some sort? Using Earthlings as a basis for an argument may be valid, but improbable.

Quote
Seriously, you use Jurrasic Park as some sort of fact. Jurrasic par kis fiction.
Well, this argument is taking place in the future non? Maybe on one planet, there is indeed a reptilian population of the same magnitude.
You can't simply say "No" since there is no proof proving it wrong, nor right. It's a theory based off the fact that the Universe is huge, and the probability that there is life on another planet is larger then there not being any.

I know you probably didn't say 'no', but I wouldn't remember
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 10:49:15 am
Yeah, how about them Dune sandworms?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2009, 11:11:17 am
Bugs aren't organic robots.
If if one could create some sort of super bug, getting it do what you want is a whole other matter.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 11:14:01 am
Why? What's the difference between a robot and a bug? I don't really see one.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2009, 12:25:35 pm
Why? What's the difference between a robot and a bug? I don't really see one.

Bugs are animals and have their own reasons for doing what they do. Even if genetic manipulation is possible, how is a person supposed to train these 'gunpowder' bugs to explode at the right time and so on? Bugs attack out of self defence for eating, and usually target things around thier own size or smaller. How is a person going to get bugs to attack full sized humans and do all these military things that require months of years of training with any sentient being?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 12:44:14 pm
How do you get salmon to turn up at the exact place at the right time without any instruction? How do non-sentient insects construct hives with caste systems and then farm aphids? How do parasitized ants know specifically to crawl to the tops of blades of grass? How could a parasite possible evolve that replaces the tongue of a particular fish species?

Nature does this kind of incredibly detailed stuff all the time. And it's because there's enough room for programming in a single organism - in DNA - to encompass billions of computer programs.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Polpolion on October 07, 2009, 05:23:12 pm
Quote
it just hitches a ride in on a meteorite or whatever

 :blah:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 05:38:59 pm
Again, hardly seems like a huge issue, especially for engineered life. You could even do it in spore form if you were so inclined.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 07, 2009, 05:44:42 pm
I don't think TrashMan is going to back down any time soon.

Also, yay for me finally responding to something on the last page, instead of not realizing there were other pages between what I was responding to and the most recent post.

Also, recommend threadsplit?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2009, 10:54:00 pm
How do you get salmon to turn up at the exact place at the right time without any instruction? How do non-sentient insects construct hives with caste systems and then farm aphids? How do parasitized ants know specifically to crawl to the tops of blades of grass? How could a parasite possible evolve that replaces the tongue of a particular fish species?

Nature does this kind of incredibly detailed stuff all the time. And it's because there's enough room for programming in a single organism - in DNA - to encompass billions of computer programs.

Even if what you suggest was remotely possible, technology would still trump organic weapons because why make a self-replicating organism that you can't directly control when you could instead make a self-replicating robot or nano-machine that you can receive ordinary signals and other information.

Why make a bullet bug when you could make a bullet robot that could do the same job with less risk.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Rian on October 07, 2009, 11:04:25 pm
If you can create attack bugs to arbitrary specifications, then why couldn’t you create chemical cues to control them? Ants do a lot of their communication with pheromones.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 11:11:09 pm
How do you get salmon to turn up at the exact place at the right time without any instruction? How do non-sentient insects construct hives with caste systems and then farm aphids? How do parasitized ants know specifically to crawl to the tops of blades of grass? How could a parasite possible evolve that replaces the tongue of a particular fish species?

Nature does this kind of incredibly detailed stuff all the time. And it's because there's enough room for programming in a single organism - in DNA - to encompass billions of computer programs.

Even if what you suggest was remotely possible, technology would still trump organic weapons because why make a self-replicating organism that you can't directly control when you could instead make a self-replicating robot or nano-machine that you can receive ordinary signals and other information.

Why make a bullet bug when you could make a bullet robot that could do the same job with less risk.

How many bullet robots do you see around you, executing complex behavioral programs with incredible fidelity over thousands of generations?

Yeah, thought so. Not to mention Rian's point that you can control the biological organisms every bit as directly.

And I wish people would read threads before posting about topics already addressed. None of this is about 'organic weapons trumping technology.'
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2009, 11:15:33 pm
How many bullet robots do you see around you, executing complex behavioral programs with incredible fidelity over thousands of generations?

How many man-made organisms do you see around you, executing war-like behavioural patterns contrary to basic instincts for self-preservation?

And pheromones? Please someone's been playing too much HL2. How can you direct organic organisms with pheromones from your orbital base? Can bugs smell it from orbit? Robots on the other hand, send them a signal and watch them go.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 11:17:08 pm
None, but I see literally billions (trillions, probably?) of naturally occurring organisms doing so. And that's the whole point. Presumably our Biotech Aliens are big fans of sticking with what works.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 07, 2009, 11:24:41 pm
None, but I see literally billions (trillions, probably?) of naturally occurring organisms doing so. And that's the whole point. Presumably our Biotech Aliens are big fans of sticking with what works.


The point is, if a sentient being can through genetic manipulation create a warrior bug and program it do whatever it wants then they must have the technology to just create weapons instead so why create a bug?

Or if you're telling me that some bug is going to, through natural evolution evolve into a land mine and explode in some marines face then I say bull**** to that.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 07, 2009, 11:28:14 pm
If you can create attack bugs to arbitrary specifications, then why couldn’t you create chemical cues to control them? Ants do a lot of their communication with pheromones.

Or a dance like bees..  cuz that would be awesome.

Though seriously where exactly are we heading with this debate?  Are we still arguing a naturally occurring species could defeat a modern military unit, either singly or in a large scale engagement?  Or have we switched to manipulated biological weapons verses technologically developed ones?  If we are arguing about developed biological weapons why even bother with something overt.  Hell just develop a pandemic to wipe out their foodstuffs or cause their pregnancies to fail, if you can design a bullet bug I should imagine building a tailor made viral weapon should be within the scope of your biotech.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 07, 2009, 11:31:34 pm
None, but I see literally billions (trillions, probably?) of naturally occurring organisms doing so. And that's the whole point. Presumably our Biotech Aliens are big fans of sticking with what works.

The point is, if a sentient being can through genetic manipulation create a warrior bug and program it do whatever it wants then they must have the technology to just create weapons instead so why create a bug?

So your assertion is that it's just as easy to create a self-replicating machine with all the capabilities of the above bullet bug as to make the bullet bug itself? *shrug* I don't think that's true, but even if it were, it's not the point.

I really wish people would read threads before posting, because if you go back, you'll see that the point here is not to make a systemic argument that biological weapons can outdo technological weapons. It's to show all the strengths and capabilities that nature has.

The bullet bug is a viable alternative to the bullet that can do a ton of things the bullet can't: namely, propagate itself, adapt, and even xenoform an ecosystem for the weapon designers. You'd have to build a machine from scratch to do that. The capability to do that doesn't exist today, not remotely. We're surrounded by self-replicating biomachines doing incredibly complex things, but I don't see any mating manhacks in my backyard.

Quote
Or if you're telling me that some bug is going to, through natural evolution evolve into a land mine and explode in some marines face then I say bull**** to that.

*cheerful whistle* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle) Got your ingredients right there, just needs a power boost.

Anyway, people seem to be missing the point made above. This is an example of a biological weapon that is meant to be compared with a bullet. It is contrived to do so. It exemplifies the advantages of the biological approach: the bullet beetle is a self-replicating bullet with tremendously more versatility at the cost of sheer immediate lethality.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 08, 2009, 12:27:53 am
If you can create attack bugs to arbitrary specifications, then why couldn’t you create chemical cues to control them? Ants do a lot of their communication with pheromones.

Spoofing again. I have yet to see a reliable biological mechanism for randomized encryption. Also, acceptable error issues I mentioned earlier. The replication method of living things has a much higher error rate replicating data. (And in a sense, must.) Granted you could tighten up the controls, but that would cost you a lot of the reason to make it biological in the first place.

Mind I'm not against the overarching concept here, we have creatures that can tear open cars, shrimp that use sonic weaponry (you think I'm kidding, don't you?), fish capable of killing with electrical shock. I simply think that in this particular case, it's not being presented for something it's really a viable method of doing.

Unless you don't mind the Grey Goo Effect.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 08, 2009, 12:32:44 am
If you can create attack bugs to arbitrary specifications, then why couldn’t you create chemical cues to control them? Ants do a lot of their communication with pheromones.

Spoofing again. I have yet to see a reliable biological mechanism for randomized encryption. Also, acceptable error issues I mentioned earlier. The replication method of living things has a much higher error rate replicating data. (And in a sense, must.)

Cite please? I believe DNA replication is extraordinarily error-proof, more so than digital computers. The error rate is astronomically low and it even has multiple layers of built in, on-the-fly proofreading.

As for the command issue, once we start cracking the chemistry of ant colonies and bee hives and reprogramming them then I'll start worrying about the security of chemical commands!

Quote
Unless you don't mind the Grey Goo Effect.

I've said several times now that you can make the end-state of the bullet bug colony into a xenoforming process easily enough. That's not difficult.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 08, 2009, 01:13:09 am
*cheerful whistle* (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardier_beetle) Got your ingredients right there, just needs a power boost.

Anyway, people seem to be missing the point made above. This is an example of a biological weapon that is meant to be compared with a bullet. It is contrived to do so. It exemplifies the advantages of the biological approach: the bullet beetle is a self-replicating bullet with tremendously more versatility at the cost of sheer immediate lethality.

Stink Bug != Land mine.
The Bombardier beetle is a self-defence mechanism, not a suicide mechanism. Even Honey Bees which die off after they sting do so out of a requirement to protect the hive, not as assault troops or something similar.

Quote
I really wish people would read threads before posting, because if you go back, you'll see that the point here is not to make a systemic argument that biological weapons can outdo technological weapons. It's to show all the strengths and capabilities that nature has.

The bullet bug is a viable alternative to the bullet that can do a ton of things the bullet can't: namely, propagate itself, adapt, and even xenoform an ecosystem for the weapon designers. You'd have to build a machine from scratch to do that. The capability to do that doesn't exist today, not remotely. We're surrounded by self-replicating biomachines doing incredibly complex things, but I don't see any mating manhacks in my backyard.

Yes nature is a powerful force and living creatures can be more creative than any inanimate piece of metal but comparing "bullet bugs" to "bullets" is a flawed argument. You're comparing soldiers to weapons. It's similar to saying, "well I'm going to invade country X and I'm going to send a bunch of random people with no tools or weapons. And Country X is going to defend itself with boxes of bullets. Well  my people only have their fists to use, but they're just as good as the bullets because no one's shooting the bullets and even if there were people around there's no guns to fire the bullets anyway."

If you want to compare bullets to organic material compare it to stingers and venom and claws and pincers and the like.

Because if you say you're going to send in bullet bugs which are self-producing and can cultivate the land I'll say I'll send it automated weapons drones with centuries long fusion power plants and energy dependant or melee dependant weapons and at the end of the day the machines will be the more viable option because the bio-mass dependant organisms have no humans to eat (they're fighting machines after all) and the metal constructs are going to be more durable. Sure the metal construct is less flexible, in theory, and maybe more specialized but it is the superior option. Machines can just as self-replicating as any organism, can likewise adapt with learning software, and more important don't need to eat, sleep or do anything other than seek and destroy.

Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 08, 2009, 01:22:45 am
Yeah, but, again: we're surrounded by a) bullets and b) extraordinarily sophisticated bugs with warfare programming capable of engineering their environments on a grand scale.

We're not surrounded by self-replicating machines.

That's why the bullets and the bugs are a valid comparison. This isn't 'soldiers to weapons', this is 'weapons to weapons', just one of the weapons happens to be alive.

Anyway, I think the point has been made, and I don't see anything coming out of further discussion since none of us are experts past this point. I'm glad to have thrown out some imaginative and hopefully thought-provoking ideas.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 08, 2009, 01:41:44 am
Yeah, but, again: we're surrounded by a) bullets and b) extraordinarily sophisticated bugs with warfare programming capable of engineering their environments on a grand scale.

We're not surrounded by self-replicating machines.

That's why the bullets and the bugs are a valid comparison.

No it's not a valid comparison.
You're comparing living, thinking creatures to inanimate objects. And at the same time you're theorizing the creation and application of bioweapons that do not exist. You say that bioweapons can effectively be programmed to do their creator's dirty business. Well that may be THEORETICALLY true but it's not true now. And I'm saying by that same token that technological weapons like self-replicating robots could be THEORETICALLY true and if they did exist they would more than likely be superior to any living creature.

Base your argument on reality vs reality or fantasy vs fantasy not reality vs fantasy because of course fantasy wins over reality, that's why its fantasy. The magical land of make believe.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 08, 2009, 01:47:44 am
 :lol:

Mate, I think you boarded the conversation at the wrong time if your objection is 'reality vs. fantasy', because this is a debate about whether space marines can fight bioweapons or plain ol' nature. It is, by definition, a comparison of living creatures and inanimate objects, especially when one of the perks of one approach is that it involves living, programmed creatures. (I think you're giving bugs a lot of credit by use of the term 'thinking'...)

I've illustrated a lovely hypothetical bioweapon that works as well as bullets. I've also pointed out time and again that self-replicating robots are a great possibility too. I've said more than once that I personally think technology trumps biology.

All that said, it's worth pointing out that self-replicating machines are an order of magnitude harder than engineered organisms; we've already got engineered organisms whereas self-replicating macromachines are probably quite a ways off.

You can continue ferociously humping the straw-man if you like, but in the meantime, nothing in this argument is outside of the magical land of make believe. These are all, by definition, contrived examples with quite a few presuppositions to make things more even.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 08, 2009, 02:24:14 am
Mate, I think you boarded the conversation at the wrong time if your objection is 'reality vs. fantasy', because this is a debate about whether space marines can fight bioweapons or plain ol' nature. It is, by definition, a comparison of living creatures and inanimate objects, especially when one of the perks of one approach is that it involves living, programmed creatures. (I think you're giving bugs a lot of credit by use of the term 'thinking'...)

I've illustrated a lovely hypothetical bioweapon that works as well as bullets. I've also pointed out time and again that self-replicating robots are a great possibility too. I've said more than once that I personally think technology trumps biology.

All that said, it's worth pointing out that self-replicating machines are an order of magnitude harder than engineered organisms; we've already got engineered organisms whereas self-replicating macromachines are probably quite a ways off.

We have machines building cars and all sorts of other materials for us. That's probably on par with or exceeding any genetic MANIPULATION done today. Getting a mouse to grow an ear of its back or cross-breeding cats to be non-allergenic isn't the same as dropping some biobug in some faraway land have it multiply and attack the existing population.

The fact is that the argument is fantasy vs reality because bullets are reality but engineered bugs are not. Scientists, as I am aware can not create life. No one has put a bunch of components in a petri dish and out comes a new life form. Scientists have only modified existing life. So to say that at some point in the future, scientists will not only be able to engineer life but to also program it down to the nucletoid or whatever level is just a bit of a stretch.

Life is unpredictable.

Engineer life as much as you want but at some point your engineered creations are going to do something you don't want and at that point you lose control. Hypoethetical super-science bullet bugs therefore would not be as viable as bullets because bullets are predictable whereas any organic lifeform would ultimately be a liability (see the movie Alien)
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 08, 2009, 08:22:13 am
As for the command issue, once we start cracking the chemistry of ant colonies and bee hives and reprogramming them then I'll start worrying about the security of chemical commands!

You are aware we can already do that, right? Not reprogram, but enough to tamper with their behavior?  Convince them things are not ants or bees which are, or things which are are ants or bees which are not? Sure.

Also the main problem of information, because I phrase poorly, is not in the replication so much as in the repeated re-replication. A computer works from a master file to replicate the same info many times. Organisms never work from the original, mistakes are made more easily and go unnoticed.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 08, 2009, 09:21:30 am
As for the command issue, once we start cracking the chemistry of ant colonies and bee hives and reprogramming them then I'll start worrying about the security of chemical commands!

You are aware we can already do that, right? Not reprogram, but enough to tamper with their behavior?  Convince them things are not ants or bees which are, or things which are are ants or bees which are not? Sure.

Yeah, but that just makes the scenario more interesting. Bullets have countermeasures too.

I'm not here to argue for some munchkinesque uberweapon.

Quote
Also the main problem of information, because I phrase poorly, is not in the replication so much as in the repeated re-replication. A computer works from a master file to replicate the same info many times. Organisms never work from the original, mistakes are made more easily and go unnoticed.

Again, given the number of replications, I think that DNA actually has a lower error rate than a computer. I could be wrong, but I'm advancing this supposition for now.

The fact is that the argument is fantasy vs reality because bullets are reality but engineered bugs are not

That's, uh, exactly the point. Please reread above posts.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 08, 2009, 10:19:08 am
The bullet bug is a viable alternative to the bullet that can do a ton of things the bullet can't: namely, propagate itself, adapt, and even xenoform an ecosystem for the weapon designers. You'd have to build a machine from scratch to do that. The capability to do that doesn't exist today, not remotely. We're surrounded by self-replicating biomachines doing incredibly complex things, but I don't see any mating manhacks in my backyard.

ERm...what? Frankly, designing an self-replicating, controllable organizam from ground-up with the abilities you describe is not happening. Anywhere. We don't even have the theoretical knowledge to "build" even a primitive version.

And frankly, mutations anyonyone? The last thing one would need would be a bullet-bug wiht a mutation that's dangerous to the creator (like loss of control) that ends up propagating.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Akalabeth Angel on October 08, 2009, 10:27:42 am
That's, uh, exactly the point. Please reread above posts.

Uh, yeah, I read your posts now try reading mine.

Bioweapons are less viable than bullets because life is unpredictable and once used these bugs WILL at some point do something contrary to the user's wishes while bullets on the other hand will always just be bullets.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: redsniper on October 08, 2009, 02:26:36 pm
So who are we getting do develop the bullet bugs vs self-replicating machines game?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 08, 2009, 04:17:23 pm
Can we get back to where this coversation was when I left it yesterday and two pages ago?  I liked the "technology will unequivocally and always trump nature" argument.

On an only minimally related note, has anyone thought of how differences in gravity would affect one of these fights?  If a tank crushes itself under it's own weight, I think nature wins.  Another thing is to consider how ranges would be affected in higher-lower gravity.  I could hypothetically almost guarantee you that something adapted for higher gravity will have the edge over us, in terms of mobility.

Battuta:  Your bullet bugs, I think, are a little too contrived even for this discussion.  Let's try to keep it to single organisms working in groups or hive mind more conventional forces to keep the Naysayers happy, no? ;)

Trashman:  "We" aren't using those things.  Contrived they may be, stop looking at this from a "human bio-engineering vs. human technology."  I came up with a slightly less contrived example than Battuta's in free time during Psych today.  I would be happy to type it up, on the condition you don't rant at it for not being able to single-handedly PWNXORZ anything not organic.  This discussion isn't meant to prove how organics trump tech, it's an attemp to DISPROVE how Tech always trumps organic.

Alkabeth:  I think deathfun put it best:
Quote from: deathfun
This is fiction. When we talk fiction, we use fiction to support fiction.

Going back a bit:  Comparing "bullet bugs" to bullets is completely valid.  If he were comparing bullet bug delivery systems to guns, it would be equally valid.  This example is the projectile vs. an organic analogue, not a soldier vs. an organic analogue.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 08, 2009, 04:25:24 pm
The bullet bug is a viable alternative to the bullet that can do a ton of things the bullet can't: namely, propagate itself, adapt, and even xenoform an ecosystem for the weapon designers. You'd have to build a machine from scratch to do that. The capability to do that doesn't exist today, not remotely. We're surrounded by self-replicating biomachines doing incredibly complex things, but I don't see any mating manhacks in my backyard.

ERm...what? Frankly, designing an self-replicating, controllable organizam from ground-up with the abilities you describe is not happening. Anywhere. We don't even have the theoretical knowledge to "build" even a primitive version.

And frankly, mutations anyonyone? The last thing one would need would be a bullet-bug wiht a mutation that's dangerous to the creator (like loss of control) that ends up propagating.

We're surrounded by these organisms. Our hypothetical Biotic Aliens don't need to build anything.

The mutation issue was already addressed - first off, it adds spice to the concept as something fun, and second, I'm clearly granting our Biotech Aliens some degree of biological science awesomeness.

Silly objection.

That's, uh, exactly the point. Please reread above posts.

Uh, yeah, I read your posts now try reading mine.

Bioweapons are less viable than bullets because life is unpredictable and once used these bugs WILL at some point do something contrary to the user's wishes while bullets on the other hand will always just be bullets.

See above. Not really a big problem, particularly if you are a species that loves to eat bullet bugs and considers them a natural habitat.

Honestly most of the objections just seem to be a consequence of failures of imagination. This whole thread is a what if, not a how likely: plausible, grounded, but nonetheless fantastic illustrations of a point. Some degree of imagination is necessary to account for the fact that nature is utterly unpredictable.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 08, 2009, 04:27:53 pm
Battuta:  Your bullet bugs, I think, are a little too contrived even for this discussion.  Let's try to keep it to single organisms working in groups or hive mind more conventional forces to keep the Naysayers happy, no? ;)

They honestly don't seem particularly different from existing insects to me, so, no, I don't see any particular problem.

If adding some additional detail and flair is the price of criticism, that's fine with me, but I think it funny that an organism that consists of 95% existing organism behaviors on the fundamental level (the variants are the only really fantastic part) is called 'contrived'. It just shows how crazy nature can be.

Quote
Trashman:  "We" aren't using those things.  Contrived they may be, stop looking at this from a "human bio-engineering vs. human technology."  I came up with a slightly less contrived example than Battuta's in free time during Psych today.  I would be happy to type it up, on the condition you don't rant at it for not being able to single-handedly PWNXORZ anything not organic.  This discussion isn't meant to prove how organics trump tech, it's an attemp to DISPROVE how Tech always trumps organic.

Yeah, I think this is what Akalabeth is missing.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Scotty on October 08, 2009, 04:37:37 pm
Point you, Battuta.  Something just seemed a little... off about it.  Maybe it was the selective adoption of traits based on (then) current circumstances.  Then again, I'm inclined to think more in terms of the conventional and more visibly "normal."

I need to stop thinking criticism is an inherently bad word.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 08, 2009, 04:39:35 pm
One of the givens of the scenario was a race of 'biotech enemies' who had put as much effort into advancing their biological science as we have into our physical approaches. Biology has always been the retarded child of the sciences - especially before the discovery of DNA. So there was definitely a certain degree of handwaving involved to account for a whole different path of development.

Some people seem to be choking on it.

I mean, I could've taken two minutes and written up a halfway plausible treatise on beetle hives that just make bullets and gone off on how that was more efficient than the comparable factory model, but it wouldn't have been as much fun.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Ghostavo on October 08, 2009, 04:41:25 pm
I'm not sure if it's been mentioned before as I didn't read through all 9 pages of this argument, but "evolution" can also be applied to machine design via evolutionary algorithms.

Hence, in the end, it could be just as easy/difficult to control a horde of drones, biological or otherwise.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 08, 2009, 11:52:56 pm
Hay guis, the game might actually be fun / worth having its own thread...

THREADSPLIT PLZ   :nervous:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: TrashMan on October 09, 2009, 12:58:18 am
Honestly most of the objections just seem to be a consequence of failures of imagination. This whole thread is a what if, not a how likely: plausible, grounded, but nonetheless fantastic illustrations of a point.

And I honestly see this a faliure - desrigarding the how likely bit.
You can't say that's unimportant. It's very important.

Frankly I doubt we'll ever have the bioengineering knowledge to create bio-bugs...or the technical knowledge to create nano-machines.

Also, I wouldn't call this a "technology vs. nature" debate. Not really. Our technology is the product of our nature.
This is a tech-equipped organism vs. purely bilogical organism debate.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 09, 2009, 01:05:26 am
*shrug* Up in the air. None of us can make accurate predictions about what we'll be able to do in the future, let alone what another species might manage.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 09, 2009, 01:38:58 am
HLP;

The only place where the introduction of a game can turn to predictions about the future.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: karajorma on October 09, 2009, 06:49:18 am
Hay guis, the game might actually be fun / worth having its own thread...

THREADSPLIT PLZ   :nervous:

Given that no one has mentioned the game until you did for at least 3-4 pages. No.

And stop telling the admins how to do our job. :p
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 10, 2009, 04:05:45 pm
LAND SHARKS, RAWR!!!!!!1

Hay guis, the game might actually be fun / worth having its own thread...

THREADSPLIT PLZ   :nervous:

Given that no one has mentioned the game until you did for at least 3-4 pages. No.

And stop telling the admins how to do our job. :p

Pretty please with a cherry on top?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 10, 2009, 06:19:34 pm
So...  they've got Sharky the Sharkdog. 
(http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/281/d/d/Sharky_the_Shark_dog_by_zrcalo.jpg)
Any chance of Thunder Lizards?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Thaeris on October 10, 2009, 10:04:57 pm
I cast my vote for worgs. If the angry goblin on top doesn't kill you, that irritable dog-thang will...
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Colonol Dekker on October 11, 2009, 04:13:51 am
So will this game be download only, or will I be able to pop into my nearest high street retailer to purchase?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 11, 2009, 11:25:00 am
Download only. At first at least. If they are ever able to, they are planning to release 360 and PS3 versions as well.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Flipside on October 11, 2009, 12:20:30 pm
Of course, in real warfare, the smaller the bugs are more dangerous. Battuta's bullet bugs are, in many ways synonymous with locusts, but even they aren't the most effective organic killers out there. Consider that the common flu has killed more people than all the wars that have ever taken place, and you'll see that there are two ways to avoid armour, one is to be big enough to break it, the other is to be small enough to fit through the cracks, that's the real danger of any organic-based warfare.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: General Battuta on October 11, 2009, 12:25:13 pm
Yeah. Thus the earlier discussions about Native Americans vis a vis human-alien contact.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Flaser on October 11, 2009, 02:56:03 pm
You're all being a bit naive. To destroy a civilization there's no need to kill each and every member. All you need is to disrupt the foundation.

A prime being the whole eco-sphere. Just changing the environment could do in the humans. If you're interested read the "War on the Chtorr" cycle.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 11, 2009, 03:19:52 pm
hey, they opened the Vault to the public. DID ANYBODY CHECK IT OUT INSTEAD OF DISCUSSING ALIEN CREATURES?

It really is the next generation of screenshots.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Polpolion on October 11, 2009, 03:49:32 pm
hey, they opened the Vault to the public. DID ANYBODY CHECK IT OUT INSTEAD OF DISCUSSING ALIEN CREATURES?

It really is the next generation of screenshots.

It's pretty neat. I was kinda hoping it'd open up with more content, but I'm not complaining. Anyway, I'm wondering how the actual game is coming along. I guess We'll know more when the other areas are opened.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: carbine7 on October 12, 2009, 07:06:37 pm
hey, they opened the Vault to the public. DID ANYBODY CHECK IT OUT INSTEAD OF DISCUSSING ALIEN CREATURES?

It really is the next generation of screenshots.
I did  :) :yes:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 12, 2009, 07:32:40 pm
I tried, but it was loading slowly, so I got bored and right clicked and selected the 'about' option. Which opened the about page in the same tab, losing all of the progress it had made while loading. Grrrr.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 12, 2009, 08:18:36 pm
I know. I also noted the three other doors for timers for about 5 days( two of them) and 12 days.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: StarSlayer on October 12, 2009, 11:23:50 pm
It wants me to register, what exactly is so fancy about this Vault thing that will make me want to bother?

The rest of the videos and screenies look pretty good.

The character/uniform/gear design seems a bit counter intuitive though.  If anything combat gear seems to be trending towards making everything easily accessible and a lot of it.  I see nary a spare magazine on those fellers.  I suppose all their crap is in the backpack thing?  I'd much rather recharge a mag from a pouch on my front then fooling around behind me, plus I think it makes for a more interesting character design.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: mxlm on October 13, 2009, 12:06:35 am
The vault, um...well, you basically get to wander around a screenshot in 3D. By which I mean it's basically an action sequence. In game. That's been frozen. And you get to walk around using ASWD.

No idea if it's worth it, as my sad computer rendered everything in shades of black/grey. So, uh, I saw outlines of marines. And shell casings. And landsharks. But just outlines.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 13, 2009, 07:58:21 am
The sharks interest me. Including that walker. Reminescent of the Marauder somewhat.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: carbine7 on October 13, 2009, 06:14:00 pm
No idea if it's worth it, as my sad computer rendered everything in shades of black/grey. So, uh, I saw outlines of marines. And shell casings. And landsharks. But just outlines.
Are you using a Mac? If so, that's a known issue and you will have to use a PC or wait until Unity 2.6 is released, which should be pretty soon.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: mxlm on October 13, 2009, 08:35:15 pm
No, I'm using a PC. That's six years old. :p
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: carbine7 on October 13, 2009, 09:42:58 pm
That bug also seems to happen with old PCs as well. The Mac situation just seemed more likely. Anyway, either wait for Unity 2.6 or get a new PC. Previous is probably easier :lol:
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 14, 2009, 11:21:29 pm
The sharks interest me. Including that walker. Reminescent of the Marauder somewhat.

I don't think that walker is a shark. Also, I think it's unmanned.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 15, 2009, 12:31:28 am
The sharks interest me. Including that walker. Reminescent of the Marauder somewhat.

I don't think that walker is a shark. Also, I think it's unmanned.

... I know the walker isn't a shark. I'm just saying it intrests me too.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 15, 2009, 01:10:54 am
Well DUH. But it was funny.

Also, walker unmanned, right?
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Stormkeeper on October 15, 2009, 01:36:40 am
Looks like. Unless its' like a Dreadnaught/Dragoon.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Aardwolf on October 15, 2009, 01:40:43 am
I doubt it's any sort of reincarnated-soldier-in-a-mecha.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: NGTM-1R on October 15, 2009, 01:19:01 pm
You don't have to be dead to be put in either of those. They just do things that way.

No, I suspect it's more like a human brain wired into a mecha body.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: Vidmaster on October 15, 2009, 01:34:17 pm
I don't think that walker is a shark. Also, I think it's unmanned.

The walker is indeed unmanned, it's an AI partner for the team.
Title: Re: Interstellar Marines is alive! THANK GOD! Awesome new footage!
Post by: deathfun on October 16, 2009, 07:37:18 pm
The walker actually reminds me of the GECKO from MGS4

Not saying they took the idea, just saying it reminds me of