[Sandwich]

Actually I quite like the idea of making it opt-in. Anyone who doesn't like it can opt back out again. But I'd suggest making it visible at first but with the kind of heavier moderation I mentioned before, if that can stop it being such a problem on its own, there wouldn't be any need to make it opt-in. If after say 3-4 months we've not had any major issues cause of it we leave it as is. If it's caused problems at the same level as the current gen disc we make it opt-in. If it has caused more problems, we burn it to the ground and then salt the ashes with plutonium so nothing can ever grow there again.

Two questions arise:

First, labelling it "Controversial Topics" and giving it a proper scary description is sufficient warning. Having it be a subforum that people have to click thru in order to view is the best kind of opt-in—the kind that doesn't increase the workload on moderators. We already have the ability to ban problematic users from participation in specific forums. Why is there a need/desire for participation therein—or even the ability to view the forum—to have to be manually approved? I don't get that part.

Second, how do you define the "problems" you mentioned? I'm guessing you're referring to those situations where a disagreement devolves into a flame war, or into responses that are sufficiently harshly-worded that the recipient or others file a complaint?

[Lorric]

I'll just say that the idea of hiding gen disc from the view of members is a bad idea. Putting it behind a wall requiring membership to climb is one thing, but if there's a hidden forum that people can opt into, everyone will want to opt into it just in order to see what they're missing.

I think it's better to take away all that kind of "mystique" if you like of hiding it or requiring an opt in, and just let opting in require entering the forum and posting.

Oh and a little something for you Sandwich, talking about bravery, you're protected because you're an admin (although Phantom Hoover still comes after you despite that, I know.) Things would be very different for you if you weren't an admin, you'd feel the full weight of the persecution that comes with holding opinions that run contrary to the favored group. So a piece of advice when analysing the gen disc situation, your own personal experiences within that forum should not be used as a guide in that analysis.

[Black Wolf]

I am sure Gendisc attracts a lot of users for its many fruitful and fascinating discussions of non-FreeSpace related topics. Wait hang on

Project forums go over my dead rancid pale wormlike body.

Thank you for this useful and constructive post.

I presume you actually read the thread and considered the arguments already presented before posting. Right? You were taking care to be useful and constructive?

I would have liked to extend the same presumption to you, but as the rest of your post makes clear, you obviously didn't bother to read the thread, or the original post I made, or you would have seen this part:

There’s an argument to be made for keeping things like Diaspora and FotG separate, but at least all the ones for projects that take place in the FS universe can probably exist together.

Which directly addresses one of your major points:

Yeah, but we can't force people to integrate their boards who don't want to, can we? That's why I'm asking the project heads. Is Blue Planet the only mod that isn't willing to try this out?

I mean, I assume Diaspora, TBP, Wing Commander Saga, and probably Wings of Dawn aren't going to want to either.

Since you're clearly not reading my posts, I wont bother going point by point on yours. However, I do agree with this part of what you said:

The whole ****ing problem, which no amount of forum reorganization will do anything about, is attracting people to FSO, getting it installed and running on their computers, and getting them in-game. The second biggest problem is getting people to register their enjoyment.

The vast bulk of the issues HLP faces come down to a shrinking player pool. My position remains that concentrating that player pool is a positive thing, and I've read no good arguments against that. But, as Kara says, forcing people to merge who don't want to is definitely not the right course of action. I really don't like the optics of having some FS campaigns out of the larger campaign grouping, but I think the advantages of having such a groupingoutweigh the negatives. Once we get a tagging system in place, I'm happy to volunteer Frontlines as a project willing to start the bigger forum.

On that note:



Now, all that aside, on the original point, growing the player/modder pool is the only long term solution. I think we do that in a couple of ways.

Sodial media has been mentioned plenty of times, and it's a good call. I'm not the most active social media user, but I have a pretty good handle on at least the basic techniques for making stuff more visible - appropriate use of hashtags, following and interacting with the right accounts, quality over quantity content etc. Instagram seems like a system tailor made for what we produce, with the monthly screenshot competitions and such, but it's giving me errors trying to sign up. I'll try again soon. If anyone already actively uses instagram, and can suggest some particularly good hashtags

Second, as described in a previous post, we content creators have to be better at cross posting release threads to other space sim communities. Places like Reddit seem like a good place to start, but that is on the individual content creators far more than on the site as a whole. What we can do though is maintain a list of sites content creators can consider posting their new campaigns and other material to.

Beyond that, I'm not sure what else we can do. I do think that the next major release for a TC or something with an existing IP (I'm mainly thinking Diaspora or FOTG) will be something we can make massive use of - the opportunity to draw in fans of another property is a rare one, and we should definitely make use of that when it comes.

[Colonol Dekker]

I wouldn't worry about any preferential treatment for mods and admits.   I'm pretty sure that I get treated as fair as anyone else.  It's not prejudice, it's just not preferential.  As it should be.

[Lorric]

I wouldn't worry about any preferential treatment for mods and admits.   I'm pretty sure that I get treated as fair as anyone else.  It's not prejudice, it's just not preferential.  As it should be.

You don't count Dekker. At least, I don't think you do. I've never seen you do any moderating. Do you? Are you ever part of the discussion when it comes to the moderating of this place? When opinions are to be taken on how to deal with someone?

[Black Wolf]

This really isn't what this thread is for, Lorric. I don't want to have to split it.

[xenocartographer]

If y'all want to fix up the impression you give to new members you can start by laying off the needless sarcasm and personal attacks. As Arris Gavel once put it, "seriously".

[karajorma]

Who's being needlessly personal?

[The E]

The vast bulk of the issues HLP faces come down to a shrinking player pool. My position remains that concentrating that player pool is a positive thing, and I've read no good arguments against that.

You have, you just don't agree with them.

A forum just for release threads is one thing. I think that something like that would actually be a good idea. But consolidating all discussions, no matter which mod they belong to, is stupid, especially when HLP's largest success stories have all been mods that tell stories conducive to lots of discussions that shouldn't have to happen in a single thread.

[Unknown Target]

We got a report about a post in this thread.

Guys you know this game is 20 years old and we're all talking through computer screens from god knows where, right? It's not that big of a deal, tone it down. This is supposed to be fun, not a crusade.

[xenocartographer]

Who's being needlessly personal?

I frankly feel odd naming names for fear of causing further drama - maybe that makes me hopelessly naive, I dunno. I'm also something of an outsider and am aware that that skews my perspective.

However, outsiders are exactly the sort of person you're interested in attracting, no? After all, people already part of your community can hardly join it. And, when I - as an outsider - see people associated with big-name projects with a gazillion badges under their names getting into spats about who may or may not have skipped over some forum post or other, or moderators belittling each other's moderation abilities, it makes me quite profoundly worried about my decision to register here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But I don't want to cause a fuss, and I've said what I wanted to say.

[General Battuta]

We got a report about a post in this thread.

Guys you know this game is 20 years old and we're all talking through computer screens from god knows where, right? It's not that big of a deal, tone it down. This is supposed to be fun, not a crusade.

Consider crusading for fun by playing the game for once

Who's being needlessly personal?

I frankly feel odd naming names for fear of causing further drama - maybe that makes me hopelessly naive, I dunno. I'm also something of an outsider and am aware that that skews my perspective.

However, outsiders are exactly the sort of person you're interested in attracting, no? After all, people already part of your community can hardly join it. And, when I - as an outsider - see people associated with big-name projects with a gazillion badges under their names getting into spats about who may or may not have skipped over some forum post or other, or moderators belittling each other's moderation abilities, it makes me quite profoundly worried about my decision to register here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But I don't want to cause a fuss, and I've said what I wanted to say.

You have correctly diagnosed the problem that this forum has been toxic and the moderation somewhat nebbish for years. A while ago a bunch of us tried to explain that hands-off and cautious moderation leaves project members dependent on their own snark to fend off persistent trolls (sup DarthWang) and promotes bickering and personal attacks. Similarly, low-standards everything-goes discussion in which an uninformed opinion stands on the same ground as an expert means that experts have to spend most of their time trying to get idiots to shut up. Forums with reasonable, proactive moderation had good posting! The others...well, it was open season.

I've been reading a great book which basically describes grudging and interpersonal dominance as rational responses to a system without a Leviathan; if there's no trustably impartial enforcer, everyone has to watch out for themselves.

The BP board has been very lucky to exist under Darius who's an incredibly decent and decisive guy, so it's been easy to focus on what's good. But you get something like TBP with IPAndrews popping up, or Diaspora before Möbius and Ironforge got banned, or WoD before DarthWang got outed, and the only thing to do is talk them out before they drag more people into it.

Good moderation focuses the forum on producing and enabling content. To the extent that GD has content it's smart people saying things about their expertise. People get very upset when confronted with the fact that their opinions are wrong, and that upset becomes the focus of discussion.

Modding is good. The modding community is friendly and helpful. Axem owns and works hard for the site.

The site's biggest challenge (as opposed to FSO's biggest challenge) is that it seems to get the most activity for:

1. A small group of people having discussions they could have anywhere

2. People complaining about the site and how it treated them

And not 3: FreeSpace mods.

Last night I prototyped an entire working 'mechlab' for FreeSpace warships! You could design and outfit your own capship. Unfortunately it sucked and wasn't fun, but I'll probably start a thread about the next take. I fully expect the next split derail about someone's grudge against someone else to get more replies.

[General Battuta]

Tl;dr this is a small social circle and small groups of people inevitably develop grudges and hierarchies.

I can go elsewhere on the internet to have smart discussions with well-informed people; HLP is mediocre at that because I have to waste time addressing bad faith or bad info posters. HLP is the only place I can go for my love of cool FS mods and it should focus on that competence: bringing modders together, not providing a sewing circle for repeating the same fixed opinions and having the same arguments over and over.

[General Battuta]

Also as a point of interest actual dev studios work the same way! Petty grudges and power plays dominate the conversation, and the actual work is often sacrificed in the name of ****ing one's rival. PolItical and moral disagreements drive people out of totally apolitical projects.

The nice thing about HLP is that there's no real money at stake and the community's a lot better at pooling knowledge and assets. Also it's a less toxic environment than an actual studio.

[The E]

Tl;dr this is a small social circle and small groups of people inevitably develop grudges and hierarchies.

I can go elsewhere on the internet to have smart discussions with well-informed people; HLP is mediocre at that because I have to waste time addressing bad faith or bad info posters. HLP is the only place I can go for my love of cool FS mods and it should focus on that competence: bringing modders together, not providing a sewing circle for repeating the same fixed opinions and having the same arguments over and over.

+1

[Lorric]

We got a report about a post in this thread.

Guys you know this game is 20 years old and we're all talking through computer screens from god knows where, right? It's not that big of a deal, tone it down. This is supposed to be fun, not a crusade.

Consider crusading for fun by playing the game for once

Who's being needlessly personal?

I frankly feel odd naming names for fear of causing further drama - maybe that makes me hopelessly naive, I dunno. I'm also something of an outsider and am aware that that skews my perspective.

However, outsiders are exactly the sort of person you're interested in attracting, no? After all, people already part of your community can hardly join it. And, when I - as an outsider - see people associated with big-name projects with a gazillion badges under their names getting into spats about who may or may not have skipped over some forum post or other, or moderators belittling each other's moderation abilities, it makes me quite profoundly worried about my decision to register here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But I don't want to cause a fuss, and I've said what I wanted to say.

You have correctly diagnosed the problem that this forum has been toxic and the moderation somewhat nebbish for years. A while ago a bunch of us tried to explain that hands-off and cautious moderation leaves project members dependent on their own snark to fend off persistent trolls (sup DarthWang) and promotes bickering and personal attacks. Similarly, low-standards everything-goes discussion in which an uninformed opinion stands on the same ground as an expert means that experts have to spend most of their time trying to get idiots to shut up. Forums with reasonable, proactive moderation had good posting! The others...well, it was open season.

I've been reading a great book which basically describes grudging and interpersonal dominance as rational responses to a system without a Leviathan; if there's no trustably impartial enforcer, everyone has to watch out for themselves.

The BP board has been very lucky to exist under Darius who's an incredibly decent and decisive guy, so it's been easy to focus on what's good. But you get something like TBP with IPAndrews popping up, or Diaspora before Möbius and Ironforge got banned, or WoD before DarthWang got outed, and the only thing to do is talk them out before they drag more people into it.

Good moderation focuses the forum on producing and enabling content. To the extent that GD has content it's smart people saying things about their expertise. People get very upset when confronted with the fact that their opinions are wrong, and that upset becomes the focus of discussion.

Modding is good. The modding community is friendly and helpful. Axem owns and works hard for the site.

The site's biggest challenge (as opposed to FSO's biggest challenge) is that it seems to get the most activity for:

1. A small group of people having discussions they could have anywhere

2. People complaining about the site and how it treated them

And not 3: FreeSpace mods.

Last night I prototyped an entire working 'mechlab' for FreeSpace warships! You could design and outfit your own capship. Unfortunately it sucked and wasn't fun, but I'll probably start a thread about the next take. I fully expect the next split derail about someone's grudge against someone else to get more replies.

You see this is where you and the people that think as you do go profoundly wrong.

You feel that people need to be silenced. No, the way to deal with people you don't want to interact with is not to interact with them. You ignore their posts and continue the conversation without them. Let it happen organically, not be enforced and determined by moderators. Ignore what threads they make that are of no interest or distatseful to you and just post around them if they appear in threads that do interest you.

So you take matters into your own hands and go on your crusades to beat down on people you don't want here until they despise you and this place, backed up implicitly and sometimes explicitly by the staff here. And so some leave and some resist you. And then, you act all concerned about people not coming here or leaving when you are the biggest creators of people leaving and not coming. People can see that you're actively driving people out and what a hostile place this is. This behaviour is the biggest problem as it tells large swathes of people they're not welcome here.

You've been doing it for years and years. At what point do you decide this isn't working? That this course is the wrong one?

I take it you mean Axem owns as in Axem is cool, not he owns HLP itself.

You are correct about modding being good.

[General Battuta]

No, lol. You've been treated fairly - extra generously in fact - by the standards of conduct and by discussion.

When you enter a discussion, you invite response. If you're driven away by the crushing correction of your ignorance, that's on you. Discussion is about engaging with others. You can't beg to be left alone while also engaging in discussion.

Your bans and exclusions are due to your behavior; not your opinions. You can see the same for anon, a super liberal dude who's not exactly welcome here!

You have a silly idea that people are driven away from this forum by the same things that have happened to you. Buddy, you're a special case.

This forum's declining population has little to do with politics and everything to do with people not playing the game. Killing Gendisc will be a good step because it removes a source of drama and focuses the site.

Let me say it again plainly: you want this to be about you. You want your experience to be the biggest problem on HLP. You are our own problem. But you've been doing a lot better. Keep it up!

[General Battuta]

Here, I thought of a golden rule for you, it's foolproof:

Just talk about topics. Never discuss people. Never give in the urge to talk about a specific moderator or poster or whoever's keeping you down. Stick 100% to the substance and you will be fine. You'll get brutally owned but it'll be on grounds of substance, that's fine.

Magic! No more derails. No more grudges. Contentment from content!

[Unknown Target]

Who's being needlessly personal?

I frankly feel odd naming names for fear of causing further drama - maybe that makes me hopelessly naive, I dunno. I'm also something of an outsider and am aware that that skews my perspective.

However, outsiders are exactly the sort of person you're interested in attracting, no? After all, people already part of your community can hardly join it. And, when I - as an outsider - see people associated with big-name projects with a gazillion badges under their names getting into spats about who may or may not have skipped over some forum post or other, or moderators belittling each other's moderation abilities, it makes me quite profoundly worried about my decision to register here, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But I don't want to cause a fuss, and I've said what I wanted to say.

You see this is where you and the people that think as you do go profoundly wrong.

You feel that people need to be silenced. No, the way to deal with people you don't want to interact with is not to interact with them. You ignore their posts and continue the conversation without them. Let it happen organically, not be enforced and determined by moderators. Ignore what threads they make that are of no interest or distatseful to you and just post around them if they appear in threads that do interest you.

So you take matters into your own hands and go on your crusades to beat down on people you don't want here until they despise you and this place, backed up implicitly and sometimes explicitly by the staff here. And so some leave and some resist you. And then, you act all concerned about people not coming here or leaving when you are the biggest creators of people leaving and not coming. People can see that you're actively driving people out and what a hostile place this is. This behaviour is the biggest problem as it tells large swathes of people they're not welcome here.

You've been doing it for years and years. At what point do you decide this isn't working? That this course is the wrong one?

I take it you mean Axem owns as in Axem is cool, not he owns HLP itself.

You are correct about modding being good.

xenocartographer is right, a lot of posts have just shown us moderators and admin staff fighting with each other, and it looks very bad. I don't want to continue this trend. I think that both of you have valid points, and I hope you keep it up.

There's two choices available to HLP:

1) Open up, try some new things, maybe add some new moderators, shift the focus to a more general modding platform (take a look at our brother site, moddb.com, as an example of what we could become, albeit with a more narrow focus on supporting the Freespace engine and scifi-related games).

2) Cut out everything except modding Freespace Open. Close off anything that's not directly related to playing and modding Freespace 2.

That's the dialogue I'm seeing here.

[General Battuta]

This site already hosts mods for Homeworld, MechCommander 2 and Sins of a Solar Empire. Which you'd know if you ever participated!

You take it personally when you're called out on not understanding the work being done — but you have no idea how frustrating it is for people actually making mods to deal with the opinions of those who have no stake in the process. It's cool if you don't have time or attention or whatever. Just leave it to those who do.