Author Topic: Games with good storylines.  (Read 15469 times)

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Offline MR_T3D

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Re: Games with good storylines.
i think it should be said that GTA4 had a pretty good storyline, or at least is a sign of promise in terms of storylines in games.  IT allows ME to be niko, immersed me into the character, and actually made me feel a little said when XXXXXX dies (variable), which necely set me up for the final mission's vengence mood.  The biggest problem i had woth it was just that it...ended with me, and a sandbox, nothing really to do.
    YES it is sandbox-style game, but i WANTED to do the missions, and actually made the souless killing sprees just that- souless

BUT it is still a bit too linear with only about a dozen MAX story variables, but still a sign of promise.

 

Offline Raven2001

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Re: Games with good storylines.
And both things are, of course, fully subjective.
Which is why game design is such a difficult process in the first place. It also differs from game type to game type.
If the game is not first person, taking away camera control seems less of an issue.
As a general rule I would avoid taking control from the player, but there are instances where it might be for the better, and for more reasons than just pure asthetics.

I believe you didn't understand what I meant. I'm completely fine about taking control from the player selectively. By that I mean
A) don't take control completely (still leave him with something to do, even if just limited camera movement);
B) make it contextual to what is happening in the narrative (what Half-Life does, mostly);
C) make it have sense contextually in terms of gameplay (that is, do not change the fundamental gameplay... hard to explain. Like you say, messing a bit with the camera in 3rd person might be ok, in first person it is not)

Also, what I said isn't subjective. It would be if we were talking about tastes, and I'm not:
On Bungie's jump sequence, it conveys whatever they wanted to convey well. However, that sequence could happen without any kind of estrangement in: a movie, a comic, a video game (via cutscene)
My jump sequence would convey whatever Bungie's sequence conveys. However, it is a sequence that could happen without any kind of estrangement in: a videogame only.
That's not me saying, that's what many great minds said (the media is the message) decades ago... and makes perfect sense. Objective, logical.

And agreed, game design is a difficult process, because obviously making decisions isn't objective most of the time, but mainly because it is hard to resist the urge of doing something that was already done before countless times, because it is easier (for example, using cutscenes, which have proven to grasp the audiences acclaim, and easier to plan than an interactive sequence).

Of course, you can now argue "well you said it yourself, it grasps the audience, it ain't broke, don't fix it". True, if you look at things entirely from a commercial standpoint, it's easier to plan after all.
If you look at them from a design knowledge, art, and evolutionary standpoint, you will find that it ain't the way to go, because if done right, you can also win the audience, and at the same time do good design. It is harder of course.




Which most people think WAS a brilliant idea, since such dialogue added a lot to the atmosphere and feel.

I disagree, I know I'm not the only one too, I wonder where you got that "most" numbers?
But even so, the fact that you didn't justify the other 2 brilliant ideas leads me to think that you found some reason on the point I was trying to make. Assuming that this particular point was a right decision (which, like I said, me and other people disagree), that still makes for 2 other time consuming tasks that didn't allow for actual game content to be done.



Fallout series, as briliant as it is, is old and does not compare well, since new games DEMAND a LOT more resources, which consequently requires a lot more time and $$$. Not to mention that the protagonist in Fallout is pre-set, which makes telling a story and creating content easier.

On the other hand, newer games have much much bigger budgets and much better tools\tech at their disposal, not to mention bigger production cycles, so it evens out in terms of cash I'd say.
And not to mention that in Fallout you had
a) intricate webs of consequences,
b) branching storylines and different outcomes in quests,
c) non-class based character system and gameplay
d) multiple ways of solving quests that don't involve combat in any way

As for DA, from what I've just read in their FaQ mainly:
a and b) They claim they have multiple ways of solving the story and that there will be consequences... from past Bioware's repertoir I'd bet my head that those things are only going to really happen in the main storyline, not the side quests. But that's speculation from my part, so let's give them the benefit of  doubt.
c) 3 classes to choose from. Easier to balance the game than in Fallout
d) from the classes they mention, I'm pretty sure you won't see a diplomat or "techie" approach to solving 95% of the game. Less workload.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2009, 04:22:08 pm by Raven2001 »
Yeah, I know you were waiting for a very nice sig, in which I was quoting some very famous scientist or philosopher... guess what?!? I wont indulge you...

Why, you ask? What, do I look like a Shivan to you?!?


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Offline TrashMan

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Re: Games with good storylines.
Also, what I said isn't subjective. It would be if we were talking about tastes, and I'm not:
On Bungie's jump sequence, it conveys whatever they wanted to convey well. However, that sequence could happen without any kind of estrangement in: a movie, a comic, a video game (via cutscene)
My jump sequence would convey whatever Bungie's sequence conveys. However, it is a sequence that could happen without any kind of estrangement in: a videogame only.
That's not me saying, that's what many great minds said (the media is the message) decades ago... and makes perfect sense. Objective, logical.

Not really. It's only logical based on your initial assumptions.
It's fundamentally an artistic choice as well as a technical one. Not to mention that just cause X is a game it doesn't mean that I have to spend every second of it constantly doing something. Especially in action heavy games, short cutscenes give you a chance to rest your hand and pay attention to the story.


Quote
But even so, the fact that you didn't justify the other 2 brilliant ideas leads me to think that you found some reason on the point I was trying to make. Assuming that this particular point was a right decision (which, like I said, me and other people disagree), that still makes for 2 other time consuming tasks that didn't allow for actual game content to be done.

They weren't that bad. I know quite a few people that loved them. I guess it's a matter of what kind of game they wanted to make with what time and resources they had, and not what kind of game I or you would want. No matter what game or design process, people are gonna find something in any game to complain about claiming it should have been done better. You can't please everyone.




On the other hand, newer games have much much bigger budgets and much better tools\tech at their disposal, not to mention bigger production cycles, so it evens out in terms of cash I'd say.

And they need those. Making content has become especially costly and time consuming, since the audience has become spoiled. Everything has to be modeled, mapped and animated in high-detail these days. Not to mention it has to support a wider range of hardware.



Quote
As for DA, from what I've just read in their FaQ mainly:
a and b) They claim they have multiple ways of solving the story and that there will be consequences... from past Bioware's repertoir I'd bet my head that those things are only going to really happen in the main storyline, not the side quests. But that's speculation from my part, so let's give them the benefit of  doubt.
c) 3 classes to choose from. Easier to balance the game than in Fallout
d) from the classes they mention, I'm pretty sure you won't see a diplomat or "techie" approach to solving 95% of the game. Less workload.

Given that I talk to the devs on a daily basis I can give you some more info on that.
There are 3 starting classes (Warrior, Mage, Rouge) but each has various specialization branches, skills, feats and stuff, making characters highly customizable and difficult to balance.
There are 3 starting races and a total of 6 origins:
- Mage Origin (elf or human mage)
- Human Noble  (human warrior or rouge)
- Daelish elf (elven rouge or warrior)
- City Elf (elven rogue or warrior)
- Dwarven Commoner (dwarven warrior or rogue)
- Dwarven Noble ((dwarven warrior or rogue)

An origin is a introduction to the world, a long first unique chapter with quests, NPC and consequences who influence later chapters. An origin defines your family and hte place where you live and starts you towards hte main storyline. You might get a personal nemessis in that origin that will hound you later, or alies, or a whole lot of other possibilities, including different side quests later in the game.
There are multiple ending and they are fractal in nature (thing the Fallout 1&2 ending). There are various ways to end quests, peaceful ones where possible and where it makes sense.

There is no morality meter, only choice and consequences. The dominant belief is monotheistic (the Chantry, with a female pope, a.k.a. Devine, that spreads the faith in the Maker), while the Daelish elves continue worshiping the Old Gods. Dwarves practice a form of ancestor worship. Oh, there's also an Impreeail Chantry in the kingdom of Orleais, with a male Divine. The Chantry and the Imperial chantry are at odds.

There is no proof of God(s) of any kind, so it's all a matter of faith, mages are feared because of they allegedly caused the Blight.
The Circle of Mages takes all children that show magical abilities (they are inborn - you either have it or not. Warriors can't do magic) and trains them in the responsible use of magic. Their final test before they are considered true mages is the harrowing - a mental trip to the Fade, the dreamworld of a sorts, a place between here and the afterlife, where they have to resist demonic temptations.
If they fail and become possessed The Templars (military order of the Chantry) kill them. The Templars also hunt hedge wizzards (apostates, mages who were never trained by the Circle). If a mage doesn't want to take the harrowing, the only other option is to become a tranquil (all conection to the Fade and magic is striped from him. This also makes him emotionless). Tranquill and the dwarves re the only ones who make magical items, since they are the only ones who can handle ilyrium (ore used in enchanting that supposedly makes you mad or kills you if your exposed to it raw). Processed ilyrium is used to make magical weapons, enchanting and in a ritual to enter the Fade. Only dwarves can mine raw ilyrium, since they are insanely resistant to it.

The elves were supposedly immortal and had large kingdoms before the coming of man. They lost their imortality after the Old Gods abandoned them for some reason and their kingdoms fell, conquered by humans. That happened roughly the same time human mages from the Tewinter Imperium tried to open a portal to heaven and usurp it, thus allegedly causing the Blight. Given that all of that happened a long time ago, no one knows exactly what happened, nor if the elves really were immortal back then. They now have a  lifespan similar to humans. Elves are second class citizens and live in alianages in human cities, or in the woods among the Dalish clans. Daelish elves are nomadic, follow hte old religion and each carries a tatoo that symbolises his patron god. They travel in search of old elven ruins, looking for old knowledge and lore.

The Dwarves have a caste system and a honour system. Nobility is looked up to and have great power and are involved in constant political scheemings. Dwarves that do not belong to a house are considered unworthy and are all tatooed to mark them as such. They carve their living by doing the lowest jobs, steal or beg.
Dwarves that live on the surface are also looked down upon. The greatest of dwarven hearoes are called Paragons. They are revered by all dwarves and any house that stems from a paragon enjoyes great power. During the first Blight, the dwarvs lost a big chink of their empire to the sudden attacks. The Paragon that collapsed the tunels and sealed the city of Ozrammar from the rest of the kingdom, and thus saved it formed the house that currenlty rules the city.

there..a bit of extra info for ya.
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Offline blackhole

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Re: Games with good storylines.
We need high quality procedural generated content, and easier, faster production of game content.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Re: Games with good storylines.
You'd think that the big game companies would dedicate a team to working on their own reusable network-code and the like, rather than having them build it all from scratch (or buying it) for each game.

 

Offline redsniper

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Re: Games with good storylines.
There are 3 starting races and a total of 6 origins:
- Mage Origin (elf or human mage)
- Human Noble  (human warrior or rouge)
- Daelish elf (elven rouge or warrior)
- City Elf (elven rogue or warrior)
- Dwarven Commoner (dwarven warrior or rogue)
- Dwarven Noble ((dwarven warrior or rogue)
Why can't I be a dwarven mage or a human commoner?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2009, 02:15:37 pm by redsniper »
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Offline Ransom

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Re: Games with good storylines.
Bioware are strict believers in social roles

incidentally if you play a female character you can only be a bar wench

 

Offline blackhole

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Re: Games with good storylines.
You'd think that the big game companies would dedicate a team to working on their own reusable network-code and the like, rather than having them build it all from scratch (or buying it) for each game.

Not only are there a lot of stupid programmers, but deadlines often do strange things to code...

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Games with good storylines.
There are 3 starting races and a total of 6 origins:
- Mage Origin (elf or human mage)
- Human Noble  (human warrior or rouge)
- Daelish elf (elven rouge or warrior)
- City Elf (elven rogue or warrior)
- Dwarven Commoner (dwarven warrior or rogue)
- Dwarven Noble ((dwarven warrior or rogue)
Why can't I be a dwarven mage or a human commoner?

Dwarves can't be mages at all. They have no connection to the Fade. They do have high magic resistance and are the only ones who can actually make magical items from scratch.
Human Commoner origin was cut. David said it wasn't as good as the rest so they decided to scrap it for now.


Quote
Bioware are strict believers in social roles

incidentally if you play a female character you can only be a bar wench

LOL..you should play the alianage elf origin then. If you're a female, a human lord will try to have his way with you.

http://na.llnet.bioware.cdn.ea.com/u/f/eagames/bioware/dragonage/images/wallpapers/origins/ElfCommoner_wallpaper_full_1280x1024.jpg
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!