Author Topic: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)  (Read 10273 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
I'm working on it. My biggest problem is that I have a slow net connection and it's taking me ages to download TBP. But if I don't do that, I don't know if I have the most recent versions of everything.

Later this month I'll be back in the UK and I'll have a decent net connection. But I'll keep trying from here cause at the moment I do have time to work on stuff.
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Offline wesp5

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
I'm working on it.

Great! If you download my "Star Fury Pilot Patch 2.0" you'll get all the working FSO files for the latest Zathras version, the original and fixed "Star Fury Pilot" missions und both First Ones mini campaigns. Speaking of which, for TBP 3.5 I would suggest to rename the "Earth Minbari War demo campaign" to "Earth Minbari War mini campaign", as demo implies that a full version will follow which won't ever be the case. Unless someone with more knowledge of creating campaigns wants to merge the two SFP missions "In the beginning" and "Battle of the line" into the "Earth Minbari War campaign", which would provide good beginning and ending missions and could turn the whole thing into a true finished campaign in my opinion!
« Last Edit: July 11, 2016, 04:15:55 am by wesp5 »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
I can't imagine that editing those files in that way would be difficult at all.

The question is whether the missions are similar in style and gameplay. If not, it would be better not to merge them rather than having sudden jumps in difficulty. Unfortunately it's been a while since I played those missions so feedback from those who have played more recently would be useful. There would also be issues with things like crediting etc if the creators of those missions were not the same people.
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Offline wesp5

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
The question is whether the missions are similar in style and gameplay. If not, it would be better not to merge them rather than having sudden jumps in difficulty.

I don't think difficulty would be a problem, but style might be different as Mad tried to make his SFP missions close to the show including original voice overs and I don't think the rest of the campaign did. Still it might not be that much of an issue, if one would use these two missions as seperate start and ending points with a fitting narration like: This is how the war started... normal campaign... and this is how it ended. I myself don't even know how campaigns are connected though...

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
To be honest, it sounds better not to mess with the campaign at all and just change the name as you originally suggested.


In better news, the stars aligned, clouds parted, and angelic hordes descended for long enough for me to be able to download the TBP DVD and zathras today. So I can start work on fixing the issues mentioned above.
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Offline wesp5

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
To be honest, it sounds better not to mess with the campaign at all and just change the name as you originally suggested.

Yeah, I agree to that. The styles are very different, the campaign has mission briefings and the single missions have not...

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
Okay, with the exception of Star Fury Pilot, are there any other campaigns which have been updated since the DVD which don't have the fixes in Zathras. Is there any other content I should be adding?
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
The E,

The one and only right?

Essentially, what I am asking you to do is to not make IPAndrews-level mistakes

You mean the ones where the game engine wasn't developed enough to do things properly so we had to compromise? Or where PCS used to nuke random bits of the POF on save so saving 100 odd fully working POFs was like stacking marbles in a corner (JMS)? Or where things broke almost immediately post release because Source Code Project devs back then couldn't even spell backward compatibility? Or where we omitted a LOD because even back most graphics cards were getting to the point where they were looking at our 800 polys and laughing? Yes definitely avoid those TBP Team mistakes while you're disrespecting them and taking their work without asking. Just to re-iterate none of you have any permission from me to use any of my work. Not that I am under any misconception that this will stop anyone. You can appeal to a sense of honour but you can't instill one.

I honestly shouldn't and wouldn't care at this point. This thing is old news. It does look long in the tooth. It's a shame when there are good campaigns out there. I don't include mine in that. I might have forgotten past perceived slights. I might have trusted Karajorma to do something worthwhile since he knows what he's doing. I might have trusted the Zathras team since Zathras wasn't bad. It's a big mod so I'm not critiquing the buggy releases. Water under the bridge and all that. That's what I'd like to say.

Problem is. It's not. People on here are still bad mouthing me, TBP and by extension my team and the work we spent countless days on. Here's an idea? If you don't like my work, if you don't like our work, Don't use it. Go away. Go take someone else's work which meets your standards. Go make your own mod. Go make your own game! Learn Unreal or Unity. They're not difficult. Alternatively if you're going to take modders' work as your own consider basic manners? You are supposed to be a global moderator on a site "Bringing modders together". Not "Bad mouthing modders behind their backs". It's not a great look for a global moderator such as yourself.

Peace.




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Offline wesp5

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
The E

Okay, just to make this clear. I don't know who "The E" is and while I do know that you were involved very heavy in getting TBP finished, this was all a long time before I even discovered that this great mod had finally been released! My goal and those of others here is just make a (probably) final version of TBP with all the Zathras fixes and missing campaigns included, because I believe this mod deserves to get more attention in the current space simulator hyping times :)!

Quote
Just to re-iterate none of you have any permission from me to use any of my work.

Okay, how about this solution: The current TBP 3.4b will be kept like it is and will just be installed inside a greated installer, like the old DVD version, which will add FSO 3.7.0, Zathras 2.8, OAL, the missing campaigns and any mission fixes. This should be possible, although it would of course be much better if we could pack all of these things together into only one installer when creating TBP 3.5. Of course you will be given credit where it is due!

 

Offline wesp5

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
Okay, with the exception of Star Fury Pilot, are there any other campaigns which have been updated since the DVD which don't have the fixes in Zathras. Is there any other content I should be adding?

I would suggest to include the whole extras folder from my patch to provide some basic modding tools and OAL, maybe automatically install the latter. I would suggest to not include the DVD extras stuff as most of it is outdated or useless! As IPAndrews has appeared here, maybe the whole TBP 3.5 could be constructed as a big installer installing seperate modules, like TBP 3.4b as a base, then Zathras 2.8 as a patch, then FSO 3.7.0, then any campaigns and missions the player chooses. As for missing stuff, I think you should compare the DVD release with the missions here: http://babylon.hard-light.net/unofficial_downloads.php. Drums of War III has been released in the meantime and I don't know about the last Fortuen Hunter part. As with the Earth Minbari war, I would probably remove any "demo" in the names with no need to add "mini campaign" or something else. I mean, how long is a campaign to run anyhow? The names themselves should be enough!

 

Offline The E

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
You mean the ones where the game engine wasn't developed enough to do things properly so we had to compromise? Or where PCS used to nuke random bits of the POF on save so saving 100 odd fully working POFs was like stacking marbles in a corner (JMS)? Or where things broke almost immediately post release because Source Code Project devs back then couldn't even spell backward compatibility? Or where we omitted a LOD because even back most graphics cards were getting to the point where they were looking at our 800 polys and laughing? Yes definitely avoid those TBP Team mistakes while you're disrespecting them and taking their work without asking. Just to re-iterate none of you have any permission from me to use any of my work. Not that I am under any misconception that this will stop anyone. You can appeal to a sense of honour but you can't instill one.

You and I have very different memories and conceptions of what went down back then. For my part, I will just say that your insistence that TBP is finished and that noone should ever make fixes for it was and is very grating. When I am talking about not making IPAndrews-level mistakes, I am referring to the insistence that it is a better idea to ship a buggy product and discontinue support for it than it is to put in a bit of work to fix it.

Also understand something: Back when this all went down, I was speaking only as an engaged fan of TBP, who could not conceive of someone not even trying to work with the SCP to make their game better. I now have a much better understanding of the situation, and I still think you were completely in the wrong and overreacting.

Okay, just to make this clear. I don't know who "The E" is and while I do know that you were involved very heavy in getting TBP finished, this was all a long time before I even discovered that this great mod had finally been released! My goal and those of others here is just make a (probably) final version of TBP with all the Zathras fixes and missing campaigns included, because I believe this mod deserves to get more attention in the current space simulator hyping times :)!

Hi. I am The E. Amongst other things, I am the current leader of the SCP and one of the writers on a mod called Blue Planet. Happy to make your acquaintance.

Quote
Okay, how about this solution: The current TBP 3.4b will be kept like it is and will just be installed inside a greated installer, like the old DVD version, which will add FSO 3.7.0, Zathras 2.8, OAL, the missing campaigns and any mission fixes. This should be possible, although it would of course be much better if we could pack all of these things together into only one installer when creating TBP 3.5. Of course you will be given credit where it is due!

Again, and I am sorry if this sounds overly harsh, but releasing on 3.7.0 is a very bad idea. As pointed out, the errors that pop up in 3.7.4 are trivial to fix. Not spending the few hours it takes to do so is just weird.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 03:48:23 am by The E »
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Offline wesp5

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
For my part, I will just say that your insistence that TBP is finished and that noone should ever make fixes for it was and is very grating.

I completely agree with that! I am patching VTM: Bloodlines for over ten years now and whatever can be improved, should be improved. I can understand that at some time a project must be released and fixing needs to be paused, otherwise it will never get done, but after a working version is out, I see no problem with fixing it afterwards as long as issues remain...

Quote
Again, and I am sorry if this sounds overly harsh, but releasing on 3.7.0 is a very bad idea. As pointed out, the errors that pop up in 3.7.4 are trivial to fix. Not spending the few hours it takes to do so is just weird.

Okay, if these are so easy to fix, can you help us with that? I know little more than trial-and-error script fixing which I used to improve the Star Fury Pilot missions. I have no idea about pofs that wouldn't work or what they even are ;)!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 05:49:59 am by wesp5 »

 

Offline The E

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
Karajorma has already volunteered to do that.
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Offline wesp5

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
Karajorma has already volunteered to do that.

Oh, I just thought he only volunteered to create the installer. If he can fix the 3.7.4 issues too, it would even be better :)!

P.S.: I just went to the main boards to check out other projects. Wouldn't it make more sense to merge the multiple Diaspora boards into one main board with child boards and add it to the full games sections now the hype is over? New people would much easier recognize it for what it is then...
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 06:28:18 am by wesp5 »

 

Offline AdmiralRalwood

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
[snip]
...Somebody sounds offended by the very concept of Cathedral-style modding.
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<MageKing17> this ****ing code did it to me again
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
Here's an idea? If you don't like my work, if you don't like our work, Don't use it. Go away. Go take someone else's work which meets your standards. Go make your own game! Learn Unreal or Unity. They're not difficult.
is totally not self-contradictory with
You mean the ones where the game engine wasn't developed enough to do things properly so we had to compromise? Or where PCS used to nuke random bits of the POF on save so saving 100 odd fully working POFs was like stacking marbles in a corner (JMS)?

Also
Alternatively if you're going to take modders' work as your own consider basic manners?
Fixing broken stuff isn't taking someone else's work at their own, it's subliming the work and making shine the way it always should have been. This is doing you a favour, and showing you how much people love your work and want to enjoy it to its fullest. This is a bit better than just basic manners in my book.

It's still your work. Noone's going to erase your name from the records or the credits. But it's what we call Cathedral modding, where everyone contribute his piece to the monument in order to build something greater. This is the definition of "Bringing modders together". This is what we stand for here.
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
Well yes The E. I liked your Blue Planet by the way. Great writing. We do indeed have different recollections of what transpired. You apparently recall 3.4 as me sticking a flag on a pile of **** and me telling everyone to run for the hills. I recall releasing a huge mod with a fag-packet-long list of omissions and concessions targeted at the build it shipped with. With an exhausted, dwindling team who either wanted to call it quits or had already. A pretty good show we could all be proud of. Which was never meant to work with future builds of SCP. And didn't! because as expected SCP took no interest in backward compatibility, moved the goalposts, broke stuff, then people call it a "bug" and go...



It's amazing how perspectives can differ.  Yours from your perspective as the one and only E. Mine from my perspective as project lead, modeler, converter, uv'er, tabler, campaign writer, mission designer, blah, blah, blah... But anyway let's just forget it shall we. It's clear no apology will be forthcoming from you. So carry on bad mouthing modders I guess. Presumably that will "Bring them together".

Have fun.

PS: I didn't know how to reduce the size of the image sorry. But it's such a great image it can't be big enough really.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
If anyone in this thread wants to talk about whatever happened a billion years ago with TBP, please ask first

1) what do I want to achieve with this conversation: what is the end goal

2) do I think anyone's opinion will be changed, really, by what I'm about to post

Kisses

 

Offline IPAndrews

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
I agree General. I would be quite happy if Mr E did not make comments about me or my team. Since he does not appear to have anything respectful to say.

Hugs
« Last Edit: July 12, 2016, 04:25:19 pm by IPAndrews »
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: TBP 3.5 Work in Progress (Split from Star Fury Pilot Unofficial Patch 2.0 released!)
Take it to PMs with him, hopefully he can clarify his perspective to you and help explain why the SCP has always worked so hard to ensure backwards compatibility.