[-Norbert-]

If Ken is convinced that mankind is doomed anyway, then why tell Neomi that she has to decide which side would survive?

I like this discussion  . I have a few questions:
How can Gandhi's nonviolence survive an immoral slayer? Nonviolence might give you a moral and psychological victory against those you share your same references (logic, moral, instincts, biology, etc...). But can nonviolence expect any result in a truly relativistic universe? How could it work in the face of a truly alien enemy?

I didn't mean the War In Heaven would fully validate the whole letter. Just that in the one point I mentioned he seems to have been right, in regards to the UEF losing part of their identity and becoming more like the GTVA by fighting them. Of course the alternative is most likely even worse, so this "insight" is pretty much useless untill the conflict is over.
At least for the UEF it's useless, while the GTVA might use this fact for their propaganda.

[crizza]

I don't buy this whole Ken(Bosch) thing to be trustworthy, fr me, it's an attempt to manipulate Noemi, just like the Vishnans tried this with Sam.
So what, this is a proxy war or what?
Just my thoughts, so you don't need to grind me into dust^^

[Phantom Hoover]

Except Noemi a) probably has at best a vague idea of who Bosch was, b) likely doesn't know anything about Bosch's Shivan ambitions, which the GTVA are unlikely to publicly announce and c) hasn't seen more than vague hints as to his identity, particularly considering that the most telling clue, the cargo crates, is only visible in FRED.

[crizza]

This was why I put Bosch in brackets man.

[Phantom Hoover]

What I mean is that it's not likely to be a deliberate attempt to make him look like Bosch; it all flew right over Laporte's head.

[redsniper]

It's not that Ken is masquerading as Bosch, the implication is that Ken is Bosch. Laporte doesn't have to know that he's Bosch or even know who Bosch is to be manipulated by him. Pretty sure the cargo containers are a meta thing for the players to discover, not a representation of in-universe information for the characters to discover.

[Phantom Hoover]

I was actually responding to crizza.

[Luis Dias]

While I personally detest pacifism because it promises just too much for what it can actually provide (while snarkily name-calling everyone else as grotesque violent people), one should analyse it as potentially "viable" inside a narrative like BP. One must be somewhat open to the possibility that a different context like the one described where beings like Shivan and Vishnan exist can indeed turn viable such an obsolete point of view, or indeed turn the tables upside down to whatever kind of ideological truths we may hold dear in our present.

e: Think of the above in a darwinian sense. While today any pacifist nation would be "dead-on-arrival", one can create alternative universes where Shivanesque creatures select and destroy civilizations based on signals of their attitude. In such an universe, a nauseatingly naive civilization filled with kumbayah polyanna behavior would survive while a more "down-to-earth" self-defending common-sensical civilization (to our standards) would not - the first would go unnoticed or unselected, while the second would be exterminated.

This means that any "irrational behavior" can be justifiable if that behavior is rewarded by not being targeted and exterminated by the outside force. Weird behavioral branching is then allowed to exist, completely lunatic civilizations with weird irrational beliefs and actions are possibly allowed to do better than usual ones.

That's, btw, the "problem" of existing godlike creatures, it messes everything up that badly.

Furthermore, it is patently obvious that there's a lot of meddling of these gods unto the higher positions of each faction, which it even makes this whole mess even more messier. One should make the questions of whether peace was really impossible due to the reasons given by galtevs, or if it was just "made" impossible by some kind of nagari influence meddling up the anxiety levels of galtev officials. The scenario of a "proxy war" by crizza must surely have gone through every mind in this particular universe. It can be even worse: a remake of Job's life being used as a bet between god and the devil (read the bible ffs).

So there's just so much going on. Anytime the big trump card that stomps every other mortal card can be placed on the table, and all the previous analysis goes out the window.

[redsniper]

I was actually responding to crizza.

Oh, I see. I think we're both saying the same thing here. Whether Ken is Bosch or not makes no difference to Laporte.

[rubixcube]

She'll probably find out who he is later

If Ken is convinced that mankind is doomed anyway, then why tell Neomi that she has to decide which side would survive?

Ken didn't say mankind was doomed, just that Laporte could save it by destroying the GTVA

[SaltyWaffles]

While I personally detest pacifism because it promises just too much for what it can actually provide (while snarkily name-calling everyone else as grotesque violent people), one should analyse it as potentially "viable" inside a narrative like BP. One must be somewhat open to the possibility that a different context like the one described where beings like Shivan and Vishnan exist can indeed turn viable such an obsolete point of view, or indeed turn the tables upside down to whatever kind of ideological truths we may hold dear in our present.

e: Think of the above in a darwinian sense. While today any pacifist nation would be "dead-on-arrival", one can create alternative universes where Shivanesque creatures select and destroy civilizations based on signals of their attitude. In such an universe, a nauseatingly naive civilization filled with kumbayah polyanna behavior would survive while a more "down-to-earth" self-defending common-sensical civilization (to our standards) would not - the first would go unnoticed or unselected, while the second would be exterminated.

This means that any "irrational behavior" can be justifiable if that behavior is rewarded by not being targeted and exterminated by the outside force. Weird behavioral branching is then allowed to exist, completely lunatic civilizations with weird irrational beliefs and actions are possibly allowed to do better than usual ones.

That's, btw, the "problem" of existing godlike creatures, it messes everything up that badly.

Furthermore, it is patently obvious that there's a lot of meddling of these gods unto the higher positions of each faction, which it even makes this whole mess even more messier. One should make the questions of whether peace was really impossible due to the reasons given by galtevs, or if it was just "made" impossible by some kind of nagari influence meddling up the anxiety levels of galtev officials. The scenario of a "proxy war" by crizza must surely have gone through every mind in this particular universe. It can be even worse: a remake of Job's life being used as a bet between god and the devil (read the bible ffs).

So there's just so much going on. Anytime the big trump card that stomps every other mortal card can be placed on the table, and all the previous analysis goes out the window.

Yes, but this thread was made under the hypothetical scenario in which we put aside the various possibilities that some random plot twist throws all of our knowledge on its head--as it's pointless to debate when unknown unknowns are allowed to override everything in the hypothetical scenario. The inevitable conclusion of it is, basically, what you said in your last sentence: we have no idea what is really going on under those circumstances.

Thus, the hypothetical: using only what we KNOW, right now, at this point in the story, is a peaceful solution possible (or would it have been possible at some point before the war, or early into it)?

As for the center/periphery idea: very intriguing. However, in this case, I'm thinking it to be more of a case of the center coordinating with the periphery to somewhat mitigate and blend the merging. The center actively becomes more like the periphery in the ways that are critical, and the center spreads out to the periphery at least as much as the periphery immigrates to the center. The periphery and the center (as in, their leadership) become one voice, so to speak, from the beginning, so that the eventual merging can happen more closely to their terms.

In theory, anyway.

[redsniper]

Gradually merging and meeting halfway to make a more solid whole? Sounds pretty Ubuntu...

[CT27]

Bumping since this was one of my favorite threads in a while and I really liked the idea of it.

I'm still a Tev/GTVA supporter, but this idea would probably have given the GTVA 90% of what they want for 90% less work.

[SpardaSon21]

After playing Act 3, there's no way the GTVA can or should meet the Elders halfway.  Not only the existence, but the freedom of the human race is at stake here, and
MEGA SPOILER

Spoiler:

there's no way humanity should be told what to do by the lapdogs of the Vishnans.

[CT27]

After playing Act 3, there's no way the GTVA can or should meet the Elders halfway.  Not only the existence, but the freedom of the human race is at stake here, and
MEGA SPOILER

Spoiler:

there's no way humanity should be told what to do by the lapdogs of the Vishnans.

I agree it's likely too late now for a negotiated/gradual merging of the UEF-GTVA, but the question is was this possible at the beginning of the conflict?

[Phantom Hoover]

Spoiler:

No, because the GTVA have long suspected that the Elders are under external influence and they have absolutely ruled out peace for a long time now.

[SpardaSon21]

Spoiler:

Or the Tevs might not want to be taking orders from mysterious alien overlords with unknown motives and objectives.

[manwiththemachinegun]

With Act III released, it seems humanity is between a rock and a hard place when it comes to Shivan/Vishnan goals.

Spoiler:

The Shivans continue their directive to cull violent species. The Vishnans deem any 'lesser' race that succumbs to violent behavior worthy of purging.

The UEF leadership is hopelessly compromised by the Vishnans, even more hypocritical, they've apparently tired of their new pets and decided they aren't worth the trouble of preserving after all.

The Shivans on the other had are no saviors either. They have sworn again and again they WILL purge humanity and the Vasudans along with them. The only thing they're willing to offer is a vague promise from Ken that if Laporte serves as their lapdog, the apocalypse may be cancelled. The issue is, the Shivans are a collective of ancient, reactive, whirlwinds of destruction. They're untrustworthy, and their directives are seemingly broken. They've butchered whole worlds and have done so like a person stepping on ant. There is no reason to take anything they have to say at face value. Once again, like Capella, the only option is to find a way to survive.

[MatthTheGeek]

Spoiler:

there's no way humanity should be told what to do by the lapdogs of the Vishnans.

Spoiler:

You do realize that those "lapdogs" brought humanity to one of the longest and most prosperous era of peace and advancement humanity ever met ?

Clearly if we need alien influence to finally reach peace and advancement because we humans are too retarded to reach it on our own (after millennia of human civilizations that were nothing more than millennia of warmongering among ourselves !), I don't see how you could argue that we have any right at independence from them.

You would do well to not forget that when speaking ill of the Elders. Collaboration with aliens or not, this was the first time humanity had any real, tangible and long-term hope for its future.

[Phantom Hoover]

Is being a misanthropic cynic just part of being French?