Author Topic: Some of the music really has to go!  (Read 11868 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
In addition to Belisarius' work, Darius is incredibly talented at remixes, and in an ideal world we'd probably be able to replace all our outside content with his remixes of that content. But as Candide demonstrates...

And yes, we're pushing to make BP standalone like Diaspora. I don't think any existing policy has spoken to this at all - Inferno has been planned as a standalone for years.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
As far as I was aware, you would not let people who didn't install FS2 download and be able to play BP. So I was incorrect in that interpretation?

Look, I don't mind these copyright shenanigans, I just want to understand better where the community is headed. I much rather read or listen people state clearly "We know we are swimming in strange, muddied waters in these decisions, but given our constraints, this is the best thing we can do and thus we will do it", which to me is clear as day and is perfectly workable with, than just trying to rationalize inconsistencies away with some ad hoc shallow and fundamentally incoherent handwaving.

 

Offline Fury

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
So either the policy goes or your definition goes.
Neither.

You see, what is publicly posted on these forums or any other website hosted on hard-light.net is responsibility of HLP admins. Taking a stance in not supporting piracy or any other action that is unlawful in most countries and enforcing it as far as content on hard-light.net is concerned is common sense. However, it may have escaped your attention that mod downloads are not hosted on hard-light.net. BP downloads for instance are hosted on freespacemods.net and possibly somewhere else, but not on hard-light.net. Thus why should HLP enforce their policies on content that's not hosted on hard-light.net?

It would be different matter if BP staffers would be posting stuff like "Get War of Angels by downloading <insert link here>" and such. There is no copyrighted material on blueplanet.hard-light.net.

The only thing that would be even close to above is the credits listing Battuta posted for AoA and WiH, but it doesn't specifically tell you to do anything nor does it link to anything.

In any case, this is wrong topic for this subject. This is about what music to use in BP, not about debating HLP policies and copyright.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2014, 10:06:03 am by Fury »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
As far as I was aware, you would not let people who didn't install FS2 download and be able to play BP. So I was incorrect in that interpretation?

Look, I don't mind these copyright shenanigans, I just want to understand better where the community is headed. I much rather read or listen people state clearly "We know we are swimming in strange, muddied waters in these decisions, but given our constraints, this is the best thing we can do and thus we will do it", which to me is clear as day and is perfectly workable with, than just trying to rationalize inconsistencies away with some ad hoc shallow and fundamentally incoherent handwaving.

I don't understand who you're addressing here. This is the BP board and what you're saying is basically BP's policy. We have no control over HLP's policy as a whole.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
Fury, that is a good distinction I was not making and I think it is proper.

Despite all that, it is akin to say "The Freespace 2 torrent is not hosted in HLP, therefore it's not a problem for us, despite we linking to the torrent, making huge comment threads under the link posts, telling everyone to dowload it and how to install it, etc."

I am aware of The_E's black and white marker. It seems a bit arbitrary to me for it is based merely on some specific common sense that is far from being encoded in the law or its spirit... but I guess the problems there are with the laws, not HLP.

@Battuta, well then I misread your intentions.

 

Offline Bandoth

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
And now that the copyright/piracy discussion seems to be winding down (hopefully), I would like to address the first (and imho meatier) half of OP's comment.

The BP devs have noted that if there are specific songs that we do not like and have a replacement for, they would happily swap them out.  So why don't we start by mentioning a few that break us out of the BP/WiH suspension of disbelief?  Then we the community and the devs have a starting point for finding out what should/can be replaced with what.

Like OP, I did not find Vergil's battle appropriate.  The song itself is very good, but it did not lend to me sitting in a space ship fighting for my life.

I also had a slight problem with one of the songs from Advent Children.  I think it takes place during the fight with Bahamut in the movie... In the mission I recall the music starting up as our wing began afterburning toward the enemy, which was fine except it the song transitioned into the actual fight way before I got there.  I may have to watch Quantum Delta/replay a bunch to remember exactly what bothered me about it.

Other songs that rubbed people the wrong way during their playthroughs?

-----------

On the other hand, I found the use of Preliator in Delenda Est perfect.  You guys must have timed Levi's incredulous response to Simms or something because if you didn't, that was one of the most powerful coincidences I have ever come across.

 

Offline jr2

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
(And if they didn't care they could just use a tape recorder or whatever recording device, and record it off whenever they hear it and play it back when they want to - how are you going to stop that?)

Yeah no, how about 3.5 mm audio cable, headphones out port to line in port, load Audacity, profit! And if you have good FM reception it works for radio, too! :drevil:

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
As with most elements of HLP's policies, there is room for flexibility and interpretation in the way we approach the posting/use of copyrighted works inside and outside the context of FS mods. In this case, as with many others, the sin doth lie in the intent.

In my non-professional opinion, the use of copyrighted game music in another game mod, for profit or not, is probably not legally defensible as fair use. However, the copyright owners have not caused a fuss, and the material is used in a separate work, and is used exclusively in support of a FS mod, which is the exact kind of activity that HLP supports. So while the use of said music may technically violate the general anti-piracy stance, we turn a blind eye in cases such as this for the good of the modding community and FS as a whole. Of course, if the original owner were to complain and/or issue a take-down notice, things would quickly change.

Compare that scenario with the general posting of, for example, a torrent for an album. The torrent adds nothing to the FS community or modding scene, so we would come down hard on it.

I can see how some people would see this as a double standard, and maybe it is, but I think it's a double standard that gives the community the best balance possible, and prioritizes the things that are important to us.

Please note, however, that all that is my personal opinion and interpretation of our rules and precedents. This hasn't been discussed behind the scenes as far as I know, so don't take this as any kind of official HLP stance. It's simply how I approach the issue as a mod.
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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
Compare that scenario with the general posting of, for example, a torrent for an album. The torrent adds nothing to the FS community or modding scene, so we would come down hard on it.

But a torrent for FS2? Or better still: the necessary FS2 content to run FSOpen? Being able to, effectively, distribute all our mods as standalone would be a major boon for the community, but it's considered unacceptable for copyright reasons.
The good Christian should beware of mathematicians, and all those who make empty prophecies. The danger already exists that the mathematicians have made a covenant with the devil to darken the spirit and to confine man in the bonds of Hell.

 

Offline Black Wolf

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
Obtaining FS2 is cheap and easy. When it wasn't, HLPs stance was very dofferent. And we should support the creators of our favorite game (disliked though Interplay may be, they still allowed FS to get off the ground, and for that we should be grateful to them). It's much harder to get the dozens of individual tracks, convert them to a usable format and make all the other changes campaign makers may have made. Thirdly, the music is a relatively small part of the mod, while the FS asset base still represents a significant chunk. Finally, and on a more personal opinion type note, I don't think it's too much to expect people to buy a game of they want to play a mod for that game.

It's also not in the community's interest to get on interplay, GoG or (perhaps ultimately) Valve's bad side.

Final answer on that topic then - we will not be allowing FS torrents any time soon. If you're unhappy about that, I'm sorry, but that stance is a solid one.
TWISTED INFINITIES · SECTORGAME· FRONTLINES
Rarely Updated P3D.
Burn the heretic who killed F2S! Burn him, burn him!!- GalEmp

 
Re: Some of the music really has to go!
And now that the copyright/piracy discussion seems to be winding down (hopefully), I would like to address the first (and imho meatier) half of OP's comment.

The BP devs have noted that if there are specific songs that we do not like and have a replacement for, they would happily swap them out.  So why don't we start by mentioning a few that break us out of the BP/WiH suspension of disbelief?  Then we the community and the devs have a starting point for finding out what should/can be replaced with what.

Like OP, I did not find Vergil's battle appropriate.  The song itself is very good, but it did not lend to me sitting in a space ship fighting for my life.

I also had a slight problem with one of the songs from Advent Children.  I think it takes place during the fight with Bahamut in the movie... In the mission I recall the music starting up as our wing began afterburning toward the enemy, which was fine except it the song transitioned into the actual fight way before I got there.  I may have to watch Quantum Delta/replay a bunch to remember exactly what bothered me about it.

Other songs that rubbed people the wrong way during their playthroughs?

-----------

On the other hand, I found the use of Preliator in Delenda Est perfect.  You guys must have timed Levi's incredulous response to Simms or something because if you didn't, that was one of the most powerful coincidences I have ever come across.

Yes that was what my posting really was about, copyright not so much.

 

Offline 666maslo666

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
Blue Planet is not a commercial project, but a free fanmade mod. I dont see any copyright issues here. Copyright generally only applies to commercial use of the works, Blue Planet is free non-profit project and thus covered under fair use.

And BP music is awesome, I would hate to see any part of it go.
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Offline zookeeper

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
Blue Planet is not a commercial project, but a free fanmade mod. I dont see any copyright issues here. Copyright generally only applies to commercial use of the works, Blue Planet is free non-profit project and thus covered under fair use.

That's entirely wrong.

 

Offline Luis Dias

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
ey im a fan doz that mean i can torrent anythin i like coz im not into makin profit see?

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
To clarify, the "copyright is only for commercial works" idea is a complete misconception. Making money from someone else's IP is the surest way to get sued, but just because you don't make money directly from the derived work doesn't mean you're in the clear.

Like if Scientology (a non-profit charitable organization) wants to remix your song into an inspirational pump-up jam for their recruiting video (that they make no money off of), they still have to pay you, or you can elect to withhold the rights and make them find another song. Even educational organizations have to pay royalties if they want to use non-public domain music, though of course musicians can and do grant permission to use their stuff for free.

Fair use for music involves using brief snippets for the purposes of doing a review or teaching or stuff like that. Using music that was written to enhance a video gaming experience for the purpose of enhancing your video game is probably not covered.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
I think that the use of whole unaltered tracks is less defensible under Fair Use (though I would still speak for it) but that the use of remixes and chopped up/rearranged music is more so.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
Using a sample of a master recording (even chopped up in a remix) means that (in the US) you have to pay both a mechanical royalty (generally to the publisher) for the compositional content of the piece you've sampled and a separate royalty (generally to the record label) for using the recording itself. Other countries have different ways of handling royalties, and I don't know if any western countries allow you to distribute derived works for free if you aren't making money. I definitely couldn't ironically drop the chorus of an Eagles tune into one of my compositions and give it away as a promo though, as much fun as that would be. I mean, I could, but I'd have to first make an agreement with the Eagles' publisher and record label and then pay the appropriate royalties every time someone downloaded the promo.

Royalties are usually paid at a flat per minute rate (so any time someone downloads your song that uses the sample, you pay 3 cents in royalties). If you make your own cover version of a song that doesn't use another party's master recording, then you only have to pay the mechanical royalty to the composer/publisher (in the US).

e: As a side note, this is why stock (royalty-free) music is a thing. Long live generic rock drum loop b.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
Whatever the legal reality there is a culture of remix and sampling out there that thrives on the ability to work without paying royalties. If the law were enforced strictly I have no doubt this culture could be brought to heel, but I think that would be a real loss.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
I certainly wouldn't argue with that. I'm just concerned that as you grow, at some point you will cross a threshold where it will start to make sense for rights holders to come after you. If BP goes standalone and blows up (which it certainly has the potential to IMO) and you get 500,000 downloads, your not-licensed music suddenly becomes a liability. If you happened to live in the UK (1st place I saw numbers for), the minimum royalty rate for a permanent download is 4 pence per download (going down to 2 pence per track if you have a bunch of them bundled together). If you had 10 of these sample-using tracks in your download (and using the bare minimum cost), you would then be on the hook for 100,000 pounds.

Granted I don't actually know how these numbers work out and I undoubtedly did it wrong, but the point remains that royalties are big money. There are good reasons why artists like Weird Al and all the professionals who use samples work out deals with rights holders before release. Those reasons are named Dolla, Dolla, and Biiiiills.

 

Offline Rheyah

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Re: Some of the music really has to go!
I don't really have an opinion on this subject, but I will say that there is at least one track on WIH Act 2 (War of Angels) which is being used specifically in spite of the explicit wishes of the copyright holders.

That is very annoying considering it is used far better in WIH than it has been in any comparable project, but still.

Personally I don't think they will throw up a fuss.