Off-Topic Discussion > General Discussion
Picard
Blake00:
I've seen the first ep now.
My thoughts (SPOILER ALERT):
Spoiler:I loved the opening shot with the camera closing in on the Enterprise D (which had some interesting design modifications) and going through the window into to the room.. the kind of shot you always wanted to see as a kid watching TNG but knew they couldn't really do effectively (well not without spending some heavy money lol, which is kind of ironic considering the 60s failed trek pilot sort of has a camera through bridge window shot)..
I enjoyed the whole episode but I feel like I can't quite give judgement yet. I need to know more about what's going on and need to see how things pan out story wise.
Also the zero mention of Lal and Lore seems a bit strange in a world where the daystrom institute desperately wanted to replicate Data. I mean what happened to their parts after they were disassembled? B4 was in a drawer so where's the Lal and Lore drawers haha?
First thought was.. did the writers forget them?.. but that seems unlikely consider they brought Hugh back which means they clearly remember Descent 1 & 2 which Lore was in. The whole Daughter 2.0 storyline suggests the Lal episode is something they know too. Plus Frakes directed that one and he's involved in Picard.
Luis Dias:
I liked it, mostly due to the production values and the acting. The plot is the most ridiculous thing ever, which is mostly expected from the dudes who brought us nuTrek.
Spoilers follow. Where's the spoiler tag? Oh here it is.
Spoiler: The Federation is apparently Trumpian now, doesn't give a **** if a whole species needs help after a "galaxy threatening supernova" destroyed their home planet. And robots made a terminator twist and destroyed a shipyard, because that's very intelligent and totally what a robot rebellion would do, very smart. And Data has two daughters now, because of course he has, and the Romulans are building a borg cube because of course they are, I wonder if they are going to bring back Locutus, because of course they ****ing will and I'm already fuming at it.
Meanwhile, I'm enjoying the sets and the acting. I like old Picard. If only they kept the show small and witty, Picard on a slow detective inquiry, talking with people and figuring things out. Ah, that'd have been nice. I guess they pitched him "Logan but with Picard on it", and he didn't know better to realise it was a con.
The E:
--- Quote from: Luis Dias on January 27, 2020, 06:31:56 am ---I liked it, mostly due to the production values and the acting. The plot is the most ridiculous thing ever, which is mostly expected from the dudes who brought us nuTrek.
--- End quote ---
Really? More ridiculous than [insert list of truly stupid TNG episodes here]?
--- Quote ---Spoiler: The Federation is apparently Trumpian now, doesn't give a **** if a whole species needs help after a "galaxy threatening supernova" destroyed their home planet.
--- End quote ---
What the show definitely is going for is to juxtapose Picard's ideals of what Starfleet should be with what it is. That's actually something of a recurring theme going back to early TNG; What has definitely changed is the framing: In TNG, it was always single officers that were morally corrupt, never the institution.
Now, it seems, the curtain of being in the comfort and safety of the Federation flagship has been pulled away, and Picard has to deal with the fact that the Jellicoes, Nechayevs and "Measure of a Man"-era Maddoxes are far more representative of Starfleet than he himself is.
Also, that species was the Romulans. That the more distrustful amongst the Starfleet leadership are less willing to embark on a huge effort to save one of the Federations traditional rivals is, perhaps not that surprising (but do contrast this with ST6 and the Khitomer catastrophe!).
--- Quote ---Spoiler:And robots made a terminator twist and destroyed a shipyard, because that's very intelligent and totally what a robot rebellion would do, very smart.
--- End quote ---
Are you seriously complaining that the show didn't give you the full details of 20 years of in-universe time in the 46 minutes of runtime it had for its first episode?
Seriously, if you could explain to me why "this show has unexplained mysteries in its pilot episode" is a bad thing now, I would much appreciate it.
--- Quote ---Spoiler:And Data has two daughters now, because of course he has,
--- End quote ---
He doesn't. A Starfleet officer named Bruce Maddox, who was working on replicating Soong-type androids as far back as TNG Season 2's "A measure of a man" and who regularly conversed with Data has built two androids using one of Data's paintings as inspiration for their looks.
While you're explaining things, could you explain why you not paying attention to exposition is something the show did wrong?
--- Quote ---Spoiler:and the Romulans are building a borg cube because of course they are,
--- End quote ---
There's a difference between "experimenting on a wreck" and "building", I think.
--- Quote ---Spoiler:I wonder if they are going to bring back Locutus, because of course they ****ing will and I'm already fuming at it.
--- End quote ---
Hmm, yes, the most traumatic event in Picard's life being a factor in a series literally called Star Trek Picard sure would be bad.
--- Quote ---I guess they pitched him "Logan but with Picard on it", and he didn't know better to realise it was a con.
--- End quote ---
Are you suggesting that Stewart conned himself, then?
Luis Dias:
--- Quote from: The E on January 27, 2020, 08:37:41 am ---
--- Quote from: Luis Dias on January 27, 2020, 06:31:56 am ---I liked it, mostly due to the production values and the acting. The plot is the most ridiculous thing ever, which is mostly expected from the dudes who brought us nuTrek.
--- End quote ---
Really? More ridiculous than [insert list of truly stupid TNG episodes here]?
--- End quote ---
Hey, don't make me defend stupid TNG episodes. Stupid is stupid. The thing is, shows like this aren't done by episode any more, they have one congruent story, not just an arc, but a whole story, so I'm less sympathetic to the plight of having a real stupid one episode or two in a whole season. There isn't that anymore, either the *whole* season story makes sense or it doesn't.
I think that has somewhat ruined these shows for me, because I believe they feel they have to amp up the stakes and have it always be about SAVING THE GALAXY FROM A SUPERNOVA or something silly like that, instead of having multiple stories that can be smaller and interesting in their own cute way.
--- Quote ---What the show definitely is going for is to juxtapose Picard's ideals of what Starfleet should be with what it is. That's actually something of a recurring theme going back to early TNG; What has definitely changed is the framing: In TNG, it was always single officers that were morally corrupt, never the institution.
Now, it seems, the curtain of being in the comfort and safety of the Federation flagship has been pulled away, and Picard has to deal with the fact that the Jellicoes, Nechayevs and "Measure of a Man"-era Maddoxes are far more representative of Starfleet than he himself is.
--- End quote ---
Yes, I don't like it. It makes it, let's say the word, canon, that the future is just like the present, with added pew pew colors and woosh woosh ships. I liked DS9 just like any other guy, but I loved TNG's weird sense of how the show is set in a future where things we still struggle to understand nowadays are just taken for granted in the future. How racism was so convincingly destroyed it didn't even register in many ways to the crew. Apparently, that idea is out the window now, we will talk about "our enemies" just like Trump does today. This may be better for the writers who are good at drama, but then it just makes Star Trek just like everything else, and we lose something unique.
--- Quote ---Also, that species was the Romulans. That the more distrustful amongst the Starfleet leadership are less willing to embark on a huge effort to save one of the Federations traditional rivals is, perhaps not that surprising (but do contrast this with ST6 and the Khitomer catastrophe!).
--- End quote ---
That occurred to me as well! Remember that Kirk in that movie was indeed a reactionary curmudgeon that nonetheless went with the program, set out by the Federation, to make the peace treaty happen.
--- Quote ---Are you seriously complaining that the show didn't give you the full details of 20 years of in-universe time in the 46 minutes of runtime it had for its first episode?
--- End quote ---
Yes, because plot in fiction doesn't work like reality. You can't just throw that bombshell and wait we just accept it at face value. I mean, I am accepting it for the sake of the story, but I just have a million questions about it, and it just smells lazy as ****. I almost had a PTSD from Mass Effect's ending be about how organics can't really deal with robots out of nowhere. Discovery also had its story about a runaway AI going to DESTROY THE ORGANICS IN ALL THE GALAXY (sigh), so it's like these writers are really pushing that viewpoint. It's like they read Dune last weekend and really wanted to write the butlerian jihad onto the star trek universe.
--- Quote ---Seriously, if you could explain to me why "this show has unexplained mysteries in its pilot episode" is a bad thing now, I would much appreciate it.
--- End quote ---
More like, "I recognize all these lazy JJ type mystery boxes and how half of them will be forgotten, a quarter lazily explained away and I guess we'll have some good answers about the rest".
--- Quote ---He doesn't. A Starfleet officer named Bruce Maddox, who was working on replicating Soong-type androids as far back as TNG Season 2's "A measure of a man" and who regularly conversed with Data has built two androids using one of Data's paintings as inspiration for their looks.
While you're explaining things, could you explain why you not paying attention to exposition is something the show did wrong?
--- End quote ---
Oh come on, I wasn't being literal, but I was very much being precise. Regardless of the reproduction methods, she (they) is (are) clearly written as his daughters.
--- Quote ---There's a difference between "experimenting on a wreck" and "building", I think.
--- End quote ---
Your theory is that this is a research site within a borg cube wreck? Ok, that makes sense. The plot will revolve around salvaged borg tech.
--- Quote ---Hmm, yes, the most traumatic event in Picard's life being a factor in a series literally called Star Trek Picard sure would be bad.
--- End quote ---
Playin the hits, lazily. I bet they'll end the show with him playing the flute. And I can't quite wrap my head around that birthday banner. Didn't he hate that stuff anyway? Wasn't the Enterprise D destroyed? Did he choose to save that banner instead of that statue he just threw away like no biggie in Generations? Just giggling here.
--- Quote ---Are you suggesting that Stewart conned himself, then?
--- End quote ---
Con is a harsh word, but still. I'm somewhat pre-convinced this is a bad story written lazily and wink-wink-ly. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise by the show though!
The E:
--- Quote from: Luis Dias on January 27, 2020, 12:14:46 pm ---Yes, I don't like it. It makes it, let's say the word, canon, that the future is just like the present, with added pew pew colors and woosh woosh ships. I liked DS9 just like any other guy, but I loved TNG's weird sense of how the show is set in a future where things we still struggle to understand nowadays are just taken for granted in the future. How racism was so convincingly destroyed it didn't even register in many ways to the crew. Apparently, that idea is out the window now, we will talk about "our enemies" just like Trump does today. This may be better for the writers who are good at drama, but then it just makes Star Trek just like everything else, and we lose something unique.
--- End quote ---
Gonna disagree there. The main thing for me here is that, in TNG, Utopia never seemed to require work. The Federation and Starfleet were good and just with some outliers that were sooner or later uncovered and punished, but on the whole, it was safe and secure. That, to a degree, mirrors the "End of History" thing that was around during the 90s; back then (at least to me in my teenage years), the world seemed safe and secure and largely free of bad actors.
But that was never true, was it. Utopia does require work, it does require constant vigilance lest the more unsavory sides of our nature reassert themselves. DS9 explored this, now Picard does too, but with a lot more context to do it in.
Star Trek was always a reflection of and on contemporary matters. I would not want to see that discarded.
--- Quote ---Yes, because plot in fiction doesn't work like reality. You can't just throw that bombshell and wait we just accept it at face value.
--- End quote ---
What? It's the pilot episode to a 10 episode series! Why do you want the pilot to explain everything to you, when there are still hours to come in which to do the explaining in?
--- Quote ---More like, "I recognize all these lazy JJ type mystery boxes and how half of them will be forgotten, a quarter lazily explained away and I guess we'll have some good answers about the rest".
--- End quote ---
I guess the difference between us is that I am not prone to passing judgment on a series before it's over, or calling plot elements I can deduce bad just because I can deduce them.
--- Quote ---Oh come on, I wasn't being literal, but I was very much being precise. Regardless of the reproduction methods, she (they) is (are) clearly written as his daughters.
--- End quote ---
And?
--- Quote ---Your theory is that this is a research site within a borg cube wreck? Ok, that makes sense. The plot will revolve around salvaged borg tech.
--- End quote ---
It's not a theory. It's a plot point from the 2009 Star Trek.
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