Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Diaspora => Topic started by: IceFire on October 07, 2008, 08:24:34 pm
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I'm interested to know what people think about the retconned versions of the Viper VII and Raider that have recently come to my attention. Initially I didn't notice the change at all but articles at Battlestar Wiki have got a few details showing off the differences. Have a look:
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Viper_Mark_VII
http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Raider_(RDM)
So it seems that the VII changed sometime around Maelstrom and the Raider changed in Razor and that with at least the Viper VII both versions have been sighted together.
It just seems weird to do an art update that is so significant. I know the visual effects team changed...but did the timing of that coincide with these changes? I thought the changes with the VFX team were made for the start of Season 3.
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There have been major changes in other ships too, biggest one probably being the Basestar.
The general consensus of the team is that the original versions tend to look better and we'll make them first, but we might make the retconned versions in the future if using them as new ship variants is plausible enough.
EDIT: As for the VFX team changes and such, yes, the changes done to the ships and look of the show is due to the inhouse team taking over late S2/ early S3.
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Well, if Exodus Part 2 was their work, they live up to the standard set in Resurrection Ship.
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What makes things really confusing though is when looking at Razor and the use of the original Zoic MKVII alongside the in-house MKVII.
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possible excuse:?
raider COULD be just a more advanced model, and the vipers are rebuilt ones/space dirty/??
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The cylon changes can be explained as different models as I can easily see the Cylons building a different model as they learned the mistakes they made with the original. We know that Pegasus had a viper factory so changes to the MK VII could be explained that way.
The Viper II however is harder to get away with. Why the hell would anyone build a new Viper II?
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Was even the Viper II retconned in any big way?
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I like how battlestar wiki just calles the basestar that the inhouse team modded "basestar mark II".
A bit like Imperial I and Imperial II class star destroyers.. similar yet different.
A mark II basestar could feature minor improvements. Gives the Cylons at least some
capship variety.
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Though in this mod, mission variety is going to have to trump ship variety. As long as they don't make extra ships just for the sake of claiming variety, I'll be happy.
Then again it's BSG in FS2. That enough makes me happy. :D
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The Viper II however is harder to get away with. Why the hell would anyone build a new Viper II?
well for stories sake, it could be said they retrofitted viper II's because of a lack of material for building new vipers. making what you already got better.
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Taking that a step farther, they'd probably cannibalize parts from other, unusable fighters and even make an amalgam (sp?) of the mark 2's an 7's. That might be interesting to see.
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Just look at the Shadow Battlecrabs in the B5 tv show. To increase the dramatic effect, they have different sizes during the course of the show. But there should still be only one Battlecrab in any B5 Mod.
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Really? I thought there were just battlecrabs of different sizes. Doesn't TBP have small, medium and large battlecrabs?
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Could be merely an update of the existing model, (like we have F-16A, B, & C models, for example).
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I don't think Galactica (or Pegasus) really have R&D facilities aboard to design a whole new model.
A kitbashed Mk VII makes a lot of sense, though. And it would explain its presence alongside the original Zoic Mk. VIIs.
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Chief designed and built the Blackbird from scratch. It's not a stretch to say that they could make modifications to an already existing design, especially when Pegasus could create new fighters.
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Just look at the Shadow Battlecrabs in the B5 tv show. To increase the dramatic effect, they have different sizes during the course of the show. But there should still be only one Battlecrab in any B5 Mod.
I'm not sure if this was a fan thing or from the shows produced but with the Battlecrabs the feeling was that since they were grown anyways...that Battlecrabs could logically vary in size. Some would be smaller and some larger. But its true they used that to dramatic effect when they created the CGI. Ship sizes weren't really nailed down until somewhere around the middle of Season 4 and into Season 5 and Crusade. Even then there are some inconsistencies.
Still doesn't explain the Vipers in BSG...the changes were very subtle so it can't have been for dramatic effect.
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Please forgive me, but...do you have any pics showing the most important differences between the versions you're talking about?
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Team consensus is that the originals look better, at least in the case of the Basestar. However, I've been building the Pegasus with most of the Razor modifications included. That was just a personal choice; I think the newer and more detailed model looked better.
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Chief designed and built the Blackbird from scratch. It's not a stretch to say that they could make modifications to an already existing design, especially when Pegasus could create new fighters.
It is however a fair assumption that the Blackbird was inferior to the Stealthstar seeing as how the latter was built not by a bunch of mechanics in their spare time but by a proper R&D team.
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Although I'm fairly certain the Stealthstar's resemblance to the Blackbird is simply due to budgetary reasons, not any connection in universe.
I've attached a comparison of the raiders and links to the MK VII's.
Old: http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/1/1a/ViperMK7side.jpg (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/1/1a/ViperMK7side.jpg)
http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/e/e6/ViperMK7inferior.jpg (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/e/e6/ViperMK7inferior.jpg)
New: http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/f/f2/Viper_Mk_VII_Retcon_Profile.jpg (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/f/f2/Viper_Mk_VII_Retcon_Profile.jpg)
Both in the same shot: http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/0/08/Retconned_Viper_Mk_VII_and_original_version_on_screen_together.jpg (http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/0/08/Retconned_Viper_Mk_VII_and_original_version_on_screen_together.jpg)
Personally I think the new one looks bulkier, which kinda kills the sleekness that the VII always radiated.
[attachment deleted by Tolwyn]
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No hotlinking!
Edit: Works if copy pasted into browser. The retconned version, by the way, looks horrific :ick:
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i THINK that the blue-er Mark VII's could be ones made from the asteroids in scar episode.
not as good as the old, though, but still built.
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The retconned MkVII looks way bulkier then the Older one.
Either the new one is a new design ( MkVII b ), or the Pegasus engineers had to "improvise".
The Pegasus wasn't fully equipped as the Cylons attacked the Scorpion shipyards, and during the attack ( and later during the attack on the Cylon comm relay ( staging ground ), a lot of ships have been destroyed and the Pegasus took also serious damage. Remember - the Pegasus started building new Vipers AFTER they found ore in that Asteroidfield. Pegasus probably build Vipers before that time, but the amount of parts the ship has onboard is limited and they used them to replace the Vipers they lost in the initial attack.
So it might be, that some ship systems have been "redesigned", they turned out "bulkier" then the standard parts that where used on the colonies.
Just a theory...;)
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The new one looks like it was inspired by John Berkey's Sci-Fi cover art. http://astrona.blogspot.com/2007_06_01_archive.html
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=John+Berkey&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=4&ct=title
Everything he's done has these 'fattish' horizontal curves and pointy bits and scoops. One thing you can count on with a Berkey cover is that it'll look nothing at all like anything described within the magazine or book.
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Actually when I first saw the new MK VII I thought they used a F-18 Hornet / F-18F Super Hornet (or Rhino) as their cue for the change in the art style. If you compare the Hornets the most apparent outer changes are the flared out wing root/fuselage leading into the wings and the big angular intakes for the turbofans. Similarly the new MK VII has flared out fuselage leading into the wing and new square intakes underneath.
See the following comparison of the Rhino to the old Hornet then compare the VIIs:
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f18ef/f18_schem_01.gif (http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/f18ef/f18_schem_01.gif)
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Yep, I was immediately thinking of Super Hornet when I saw the new MKVII for the first time (I think it was in Maelstrom). I still dont like it however, especially when no explanation was provided as to where the hell did it come from. Same goes for all the retcons.
And StarSlayer, man, we've missed you :)
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Chief designed and built the Blackbird from scratch. It's not a stretch to say that they could make modifications to an already existing design, especially when Pegasus could create new fighters.
It is however a fair assumption that the Blackbird was inferior to the Stealthstar seeing as how the latter was built not by a bunch of mechanics in their spare time but by a proper R&D team.
Then again, the StealthStar was painted brighlty, has huge engines with a bright visual and IR signature, and had a cockpit full of blue chav lights. They seemed to be able to detect it very easily. The Blackbird is near invisible to the eye and to sensors. It doesn't make sense, but there you go...
For what it's worth, I completely agree with the consensus that the original models looked better and the unexplained changes are bizarre.
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I kinda like the chunky Mark VIIs. They look like Super Hornets.
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Chief designed and built the Blackbird from scratch. It's not a stretch to say that they could make modifications to an already existing design, especially when Pegasus could create new fighters.
It is however a fair assumption that the Blackbird was inferior to the Stealthstar seeing as how the latter was built not by a bunch of mechanics in their spare time but by a proper R&D team.
Then again, the StealthStar was painted brighlty, has huge engines with a bright visual and IR signature, and had a cockpit full of blue chav lights. They seemed to be able to detect it very easily. The Blackbird is near invisible to the eye and to sensors. It doesn't make sense, but there you go...
Well, keep in mind that stealth in space is a silly concept to begin with ;)
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth
On the bright side though, carbon composites *can* be made to absorb RADAR (DRADIS), but all that a smart toaster has to do is lock onto the heat signal or use LIDAR.
Then again, we are talking about a group who decided not to have a ton of genetic diversity and can't figure out that the best way of dealing with the meatbags is actually sticking with the plan to wipe them out... So, in the end, the chromejobs are probably too stupid to use IR tracking for their passive sensors over the protestations of the Ones (who have the brains you know)....
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Well, keep in mind that stealth in space is a silly concept to begin with ;)
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth
On the bright side though, carbon composites *can* be made to absorb RADAR (DRADIS), but all that a smart toaster has to do is lock onto the heat signal or use LIDAR.
Then again, we are talking about a group who decided not to have a ton of genetic diversity and can't figure out that the best way of dealing with the meatbags is actually sticking with the plan to wipe them out... So, in the end, the chromejobs are probably too stupid to use IR tracking for their passive sensors over the protestations of the Ones (who have the brains you know)....
Yep - make something that absorbs all the active EM detectors, and it'll show up beautifully on passive IR. It's just that the "stealthstar" looked so high-observable anyway, with a bigger visual and EM signature than a Viper!
Just out of curiosity, what are the changes to the Pegasus and Raider? I hadn't really noticed them, while the changes to the basestars and MkVIIs are so obvious.
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The peggy get's new front thrusters, an external docking bay thing on the flight pods and I think a turret or two was removed? Can't remember.
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Raider gets a new 'face' that is more in line with the centurions.
Old: http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/d/d3/Raider_head..jpg
New: http://media.battlestarwiki.org/images/1/17/Raider_retcon.jpg
Of course, never ones to waste a chance to expand out ship set, we're using these two variants as distinct classes of raiders, so you'll get to see both in R1 :)
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The peggy get's new front thrusters, an external docking bay thing on the flight pods and I think a turret or two was removed? Can't remember.
I thought that "cut out" half way along the Peg's upper pods was always there. I hadn't thought much about why they were there until Razor, but I didn't think that was a change. As for the bow thrusters, we didn't see them get used before Razor, but were their structures previously missing?
I think I remebr the changed to the Raiders' faces now that you mention it, though your hotlinks have been diasbled. I now seem to recall the original "eye" being straight (when they "emit" in the mini series), and later being V-shaped, like the scan in the first episode of S4 (don't want to be specific and make spoilers for anyone).
Thanks for the reply and clarification. :)
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The cut-out was always there, but in Razor a the shipyard it looks to be explicitly used as a Raptor landing/docking area. But in S2 it looks like there is large equipment mounted there. Hence the potential change in use. Otherwise, I haven't seen it used as a landing pad other than in the shipyard shot.
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The cut-out was always there, but in Razor a the shipyard it looks to be explicitly used as a Raptor landing/docking area. But in S2 it looks like there is large equipment mounted there. Hence the potential change in use. Otherwise, I haven't seen it used as a landing pad other than in the shipyard shot.
It looked more to me like a wide access point to move any equipment in and out from the docks, rather than a landing platform, but I can't remember what equipment was there during the non-Razor eps.
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Well, keep in mind that stealth in space is a silly concept to begin with ;)
http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html#nostealth
On the bright side though, carbon composites *can* be made to absorb RADAR (DRADIS), but all that a smart toaster has to do is lock onto the heat signal or use LIDAR.
Then again, we are talking about a group who decided not to have a ton of genetic diversity and can't figure out that the best way of dealing with the meatbags is actually sticking with the plan to wipe them out... So, in the end, the chromejobs are probably too stupid to use IR tracking for their passive sensors over the protestations of the Ones (who have the brains you know)....
Well.. to be honest with that entry projectrho entry.. if scanning the space is soo easy - as described in that article - that mere four hours is enough to scan whole sky for presence of objects then how come we are still essentially blind to approaching asteroids (which do shine in sunlight...)?
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There's a pretty big difference between the heat signature of an asteroid (close to background) and what a spacecraft would give off.
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It looked more to me like a wide access point to move any equipment in and out from the docks, rather than a landing platform, but I can't remember what equipment was there during the non-Razor eps.
IIRC there were actually a couple Raptors perched in the cutout during the opening shot of Peggy and a bay opening looking like an airlock. I couldn't find a screencap of that but here is an older equipment filled screenie:
(http://www.galacticabbs.com/gallery_images/1161637298/med_gallery_4836_70_37001.jpg)
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Yeah I've seen shots of the Raptor pads (haven't seen Razor yet :P). I figured the original cut out and its equipment were for underway replenishment or something.
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That's the RAZOR shot from the portside of the landing pod.
I don't think that it's used as landing site for Raptors, i think it's a loading dock to easier load new ships and other things the crew need.
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2046/pegportsiderh8.jpg)
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Forgive my ignorance:
What is a Retconned in comparison to something else?
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A retcon is when something (be it a persons past, some item's appearence or whatever) in a series is changed from how it was originally, and the series then pretends it was always that way.
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Short for 'Retroactive Continuity'.
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So like the difference between a Viper Mk VII in the original series and the re-imagined series?
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I don't think there was a Mk. VII in the original series. Plus, the new BSG is a different continuity -- changes from the original BSG aren't considered retcons.
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:confused: :blah:
I think I get it... Actually, I probably don't. But let's say I do. For my sake.
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A retcon is something that as a viewer of the TV show, you notice as being different.
For example, if the actor that played Apollo in the first episode was replaced by a different actor for the rest of the series, obviously the characters on the show would accept that as normal (they wouldn't be saying "Wow, Apollo, you look different!") because they're just actors too. But to us, watching the show, we realise that they changed something and pretended it was like that all along.
So changing the design of the Cylon Raider in the 4th season might be a 'retcon', because the effects team changed. Or, it might be a real in-universe reason, such as the Cylons manufacturing an improved fighter.
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That's the RAZOR shot from the portside of the landing pod.
I don't think that it's used as landing site for Raptors, i think it's a loading dock to easier load new ships and other things the crew need.
(http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/2046/pegportsiderh8.jpg)
There are a few other changes as well (note the 'pipes' with the plating over them on either side of the 'raptor pad'), but mostly of the sort that you notice when you have spend long hours looking at reference images of the Pegasus.
I also agree that it isn't a Raptor specific landing/launching area as the Pegasus has at least three raptor launch tubes on either flight pod... though they never used them in the show for some reason.
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Whether they were ever intended in the BSG universe to be used for Raptor pads, those rust colored patches look an awful damn lot like the kinds of pads I used to land on underway, only mine were dark gray. They even line up nicely right in front of the airlocks just like smallboy helo pads do.
I do have to agree though, they are very well placed as onload/offload platforms when the ship is pierside.
Scale-wise, that nook is almost as large as the entire landing area on a Nimitz Class flight deck and the rust patches are only a little smaller than the elevators.
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Short for 'Retroactive Continuity'.
I know this may be a little off-topic, but...
It's like dealing with armed-with-beams Shivans in FS2(with different weaponry in FS1) or with several FS1 nodes that disappeared in FS2? Then why do we refer to them as "inconsistencies" if "retroactive continuities" would be more appropriate? That'd prevent more inconclusive "Why did the Shivans didn't have beams in FS1?"(example) threads and theories from being posted in both the forums and the Wiki.
Again, sorry for the OT. I might create a thread on General FreeSpace Discussion.