[phatosealpha]

You aren't talking about Fallout 3 with the 60% figure, right?

[kalnaren]

You aren't talking about Fallout 3 with the 60% figure, right?

Yea, Fallout 3. Some users experienced ~60% less crashes after cracking it.

[CP5670]

It's a standard thing to get faster loading times and better framerates in cracked exes. Cracks that fix stability problems are less common, but there have certainly been cases of that. The funniest instance was probably Ubisoft's "patch" for one of the POP games to solve crashing issues, which turned out to be an existing crack for the game.

[kalnaren]

It's a standard thing to get faster loading times and better framerates in cracked exes. Cracks that fix stability problems are less common, but there have certainly been cases of that. The funniest instance was probably Ubisoft's "patch" for one of the POP games to solve crashing issues, which turned out to be an existing crack for the game.

In the fallout 3 case, the crack fixed stability issues that were introduced by SecuROM drivers. The cracked .exe didn't load the secuROM drivers that caused system instability.

As for UbiSoft, IIRC the game was Rainbow Six Vegas 3, and the issue was that the digital download version failed the CD check and thus could not be played. The patch was the Reloaded "No-CD" crack. Ubisoft didn't even bother removing the Reloaded tag from the Exec. What a bunch of nobs.

[Flipside]

I'm trying to figure out if you mis-spelt noobs or knobs

[Solatar]

He couldn't decide which word to use, so he spelt both.

I mean...I've done that in speaking, why not typing? 

[kalnaren]

I'm trying to figure out if you mis-spelt noobs or knobs

Haha, pick whichever you like better

[phatosealpha]

But the actual Fallout 3 exe wasn't copy protected.  It was only the launcher.

[kalnaren]

But the actual Fallout 3 exe wasn't copy protected.  It was only the launcher.

Not true

Bethesda claimed they didn't put in any copy protection. But they did. Now, whether or not it was directly integrated into the exec or the exec launched the SecuROM drivers and stuff separately, I don't know. I had a very good post on this some IT guys did, they analyzed the copy protection quite in depth. I'll see if I can find it again.

EDIT: Found it.
From http://www.gamingnewslink.com/2008/11/07/fallout-3-patch-10015-download-and-patch-changes/

This post mentions the SecuROM as well as a bunch of other issues with Fallout 3.

I get the same error. It appears that even their Patches need some sort of testing before release too. I’ve tried the patch on the US version of the DVD as well as the updated exe from SecuROM. Get the same error on both. The patch does appear to modify some files in the Windows System folder through the Command BOX; however, it doesn’t do anything to the Game exe or anything in the directory.

I have found the primary issues causing the CTD and other crashes. I’ve sent 3 e-mails to Bethesda and no responses. My Computer Science Engineering department took a shot it. I purchased 320 copies and gave them the weekend to figure it out. Here are some of the results;

1.) Fallout 3 Installer installs an older version on C++ Visual 2005 that appears to affect the way the vidcard driver communicates with the game.

2.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a Beta release of DOTNETFX3.0 (.NET Framework 3.0). For users of .NET Framework 3.0 SP1 or even SP2 (Service Pack of the Framework not the OS), upon restarting their system (when changes take place), their game will be quite unstable.
Users of .NET 3.5 or Vista should have even more random crashes.

3.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a non Plug’n Play DRM device manager (not driver but a manager) that doesn’t like any 3rd party codecs (ie K-Lite, WinAMP, etc) and will usually see a CTD when a Hardware codec comes online. This usually occurs when interactive audio (client controlled speech) initializes (ie baby walking to daddy).

4. Fallout 3 Installer installs SecuROM Root kit as well as 8 hidden non Plug’n play virtual drivers. Owners with more than one Optical drive or a sata drive may encounter random drive access issues. Also, Imaging software or any software that may use its own ASPI drive (ie NERO, Roxio, Daemon, ISO, etc.) will have one of the 8 virtual drivers causing the system to do a random CTD. Reason why clients using a cracked EXE don’t experience the same volume of CTD as those who bought the game. However, the SecuROM root kits are still on the system and active. Once the SecuROM is also purged from the system, 60% of the crashes disappear. Unfortunately, they must remain on the system in order to play the game as they are part of the EULA.

5.) Fallout 3 also has its own built in MP3 codec coupled to its DRM to protect MP3’s on the DVD (in game). Unfortunately, the codec was never tested fully with hardware decoders like those of an X-FI. This can be varied by the lack of a hardware audio switch in the game options.

6.) Fallout 3 has 14 memory leaks that we found. Most are small, but there are a few that are quite large. Some areas of the map, the memory counter just spins at over 100 MB/sec. Most memory leaks are around 5 to 10 MB/sec.

7.) Fallout 3 video graphics buffer needs to be adjustable in the options and an automatic cache purger installed for cards over 512 MBs as well as linked buffers from SLI and crossfire cards. I’ve seen areas where names on the screen start to disappear and all you see are “Input Text Here” instead of V.A.T.S. or range or etc. The cache doesn’t get dumped on some maps. Most games dump their cache when a map reload occurs. This can be noticed when fast reloads occurs from map changes. Most users will just see their graphics card run out of memory (CTD and stuttering).

8.) Most games were fault free with a basic XP Pro SP2 reload, and only Critical updates and latest stock drivers. Installed the game and played it error free for nearly 4 days. Upon a system restart, lots of errors showed up. This means that Fallout 3 significantly changes the operating system. Far beyond reasonable accounts as all you can do with the system in not to play MP3’s, watch movies, make a CD or DVD, or play other games.

Hopefully, Bethesda will address the issues more than 100,000 people are having.

Anyway, sorry if this went off topic a bit, but I though the DRM content in there was relivant. So I was also incorrect about the the 60% less crashes after cracking -it's 60% less after removing the Fallout 3 DRM drivers.

One thing I find interesting in this article is the comment about the EULA and how the SecuROM drivers have to remain installed to play it in accordance with the EULA. A lot of people don't realise an EULA is not a legally binding document and actually has little to no legal power. Any half-competant lawyer could rip one apart before morning tea. I don't know about other countries, but here the simple clause of "This document is subject to change without notice" is enough to destroy any credibility of it being a legal contract. So saying "You must accept the EULA to use this product" is the equivalent of saying "You must agree to this arbitrary piece of poorly written literature."

[MR_T3D]

So saying "You must accept the EULA to use this product" is the equivalent of saying "You must agree to this arbitrary piece of poorly written literature."

wow, flashback to grade 11 english class... old b*tch of a teacher
Anyway...
I often get that SecuROM error on my old disk drive, playing EE2,  then deciced to forgo most disk-based games in an apithy upon my personal 'discovery' of HL2 andthis place

[Flaser]

But the actual Fallout 3 exe wasn't copy protected.  It was only the launcher.

Not true

Bethesda claimed they didn't put in any copy protection. But they did. Now, whether or not it was directly integrated into the exec or the exec launched the SecuROM drivers and stuff separately, I don't know. I had a very good post on this some IT guys did, they analyzed the copy protection quite in depth. I'll see if I can find it again.

EDIT: Found it.
From http://www.gamingnewslink.com/2008/11/07/fallout-3-patch-10015-download-and-patch-changes/

This post mentions the SecuROM as well as a bunch of other issues with Fallout 3.

I get the same error. It appears that even their Patches need some sort of testing before release too. I’ve tried the patch on the US version of the DVD as well as the updated exe from SecuROM. Get the same error on both. The patch does appear to modify some files in the Windows System folder through the Command BOX; however, it doesn’t do anything to the Game exe or anything in the directory.

I have found the primary issues causing the CTD and other crashes. I’ve sent 3 e-mails to Bethesda and no responses. My Computer Science Engineering department took a shot it. I purchased 320 copies and gave them the weekend to figure it out. Here are some of the results;

1.) Fallout 3 Installer installs an older version on C++ Visual 2005 that appears to affect the way the vidcard driver communicates with the game.

2.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a Beta release of DOTNETFX3.0 (.NET Framework 3.0). For users of .NET Framework 3.0 SP1 or even SP2 (Service Pack of the Framework not the OS), upon restarting their system (when changes take place), their game will be quite unstable.
Users of .NET 3.5 or Vista should have even more random crashes.

3.) Fallout 3 Installer installs a non Plug’n Play DRM device manager (not driver but a manager) that doesn’t like any 3rd party codecs (ie K-Lite, WinAMP, etc) and will usually see a CTD when a Hardware codec comes online. This usually occurs when interactive audio (client controlled speech) initializes (ie baby walking to daddy).

4. Fallout 3 Installer installs SecuROM Root kit as well as 8 hidden non Plug’n play virtual drivers. Owners with more than one Optical drive or a sata drive may encounter random drive access issues. Also, Imaging software or any software that may use its own ASPI drive (ie NERO, Roxio, Daemon, ISO, etc.) will have one of the 8 virtual drivers causing the system to do a random CTD. Reason why clients using a cracked EXE don’t experience the same volume of CTD as those who bought the game. However, the SecuROM root kits are still on the system and active. Once the SecuROM is also purged from the system, 60% of the crashes disappear. Unfortunately, they must remain on the system in order to play the game as they are part of the EULA.

5.) Fallout 3 also has its own built in MP3 codec coupled to its DRM to protect MP3’s on the DVD (in game). Unfortunately, the codec was never tested fully with hardware decoders like those of an X-FI. This can be varied by the lack of a hardware audio switch in the game options.

6.) Fallout 3 has 14 memory leaks that we found. Most are small, but there are a few that are quite large. Some areas of the map, the memory counter just spins at over 100 MB/sec. Most memory leaks are around 5 to 10 MB/sec.

7.) Fallout 3 video graphics buffer needs to be adjustable in the options and an automatic cache purger installed for cards over 512 MBs as well as linked buffers from SLI and crossfire cards. I’ve seen areas where names on the screen start to disappear and all you see are “Input Text Here” instead of V.A.T.S. or range or etc. The cache doesn’t get dumped on some maps. Most games dump their cache when a map reload occurs. This can be noticed when fast reloads occurs from map changes. Most users will just see their graphics card run out of memory (CTD and stuttering).

8.) Most games were fault free with a basic XP Pro SP2 reload, and only Critical updates and latest stock drivers. Installed the game and played it error free for nearly 4 days. Upon a system restart, lots of errors showed up. This means that Fallout 3 significantly changes the operating system. Far beyond reasonable accounts as all you can do with the system in not to play MP3’s, watch movies, make a CD or DVD, or play other games.

Hopefully, Bethesda will address the issues more than 100,000 people are having.

Anyway, sorry if this went off topic a bit, but I though the DRM content in there was relivant. So I was also incorrect about the the 60% less crashes after cracking -it's 60% less after removing the Fallout 3 DRM drivers.

One thing I find interesting in this article is the comment about the EULA and how the SecuROM drivers have to remain installed to play it in accordance with the EULA. A lot of people don't realise an EULA is not a legally binding document and actually has little to no legal power. Any half-competant lawyer could rip one apart before morning tea. I don't know about other countries, but here the simple clause of "This document is subject to change without notice" is enough to destroy any credibility of it being a legal contract. So saying "You must accept the EULA to use this product" is the equivalent of saying "You must agree to this arbitrary piece of poorly written literature."

I'm surprised no one ripped them a new one yet.
That's even more insane and invasive than what Starforce did. This should be published on all available forums, so users are made aware of just how "Trusted" their computers became with "Trusted Computing" (AKA DRM).

[blackhole]

I just read that DRM stuff, that the fact that companies are still installing rootkits is just absurd.

*ahem*

F-CK DRM

</end rant>

Seriously, what more can be said about this? DRM is a failure. It has been a failure, will always be a failure, and does horrific things to your system. I personally believe that the most a game should ever do is move a couple of dlls into your system directory and modify some registry entries, not:

1. install a rootkit
2. install an entire .net framework
3. install their own freaking audio driver?
4. install an older version of VC++ redist package instead of either
  - making their game compatible with future versions
  - static linking the stupid thing
5. install a DRM Device manager
6. 8 hidden virtual drivers?!

As well as having severe memory leak issues despite using a managed language (a truly astonishing feat), never properly dumping their cache, never testing their patches, never testing their drivers, causing the system to become unstable, and completely failing to deliver a product that could be called "professional." It's just got pretty looking art. A 16 year old could program a more stable game in his f-cking garage.

[phatosealpha]

Securom is many things, but rootkit it is NOT.  It operates at Ring 3, which is most definitely not the Root (Ring 0), and is therefore not a rookit.


For someone claiming to have done as much research as KCPTECH does in that post, this is one hell of an oversight.
But really, we all know it's not - KCPTECH is just being the anti-DRM zealot of the day.

[blackhole]

Securom is many things, but rootkit it is NOT.  It operates at Ring 3, which is most definitely not the Root (Ring 0), and is therefore not a rookit.


For someone claiming to have done as much research as KCPTECH does in that post, this is one hell of an oversight.
But really, we all know it's not - KCPTECH is just being the anti-DRM zealot of the day.

Ok, remove "rootkit" from the list.

Its still f-cking stupid. The programming errors alone would make any half-decent programmer puke his lungs out.

[kalnaren]

Ok, remove "rootkit" from the list.

Its still f-cking stupid. The programming errors alone would make any half-decent programmer puke his lungs out.

Yea, I'm not a fan of installed virtual drivers. What amazes me even more is that these companies actually think they're doing something to prevent copying. Though in the case of the Codecs they probably had to impliment those to get permission from the IP owners to use the songs. But I honestly do not get how oblivious these people are to think that this stuff does anything but piss customers off.

[phatosealpha]

And what would you have them do instead, given the piracy rate?

[BloodEagle]

Grin and bear it.

[phatosealpha]

And I assume you'll be just as happy to Grin and Bear it when your turn comes around, and you discover PC gaming is primarily delayed console ports and casual games because there's no money in PC gaming?

[FUBAR-BDHR]

A few points I'd like to toss in on this subject:

First if I have to choose between something like Securom and not buying the game at all I will just not buy it.

Second I will never own a console so they have lost my money there already. 

Third if the companies made a half way decent product and charged an affordable price they would cut down on piracy.  I'd be more apt to by 3 $25 games as to buy 1 at $60. 

Fourth and probably the biggest one is I gave up buying new games about 2 years ago.  Why?  They all suck.  I purchased about a dozen games in a 2 month period and was board in a week.  I think it took me about 3 days to beat the hardest one.  So at even 40 bucks a pop that's still over $13 a day for entertainment.  I get more entertainment out of a case of beer which is about the same price.


So in summary if they want my business they will make a PC game, drop the BS that takes over my PC, make a decent product, and charge a fair price.  Until then I will drink my beer and play FS2.

[DaBrain]

I bought Fallout 3, cause it's one of the few titles, which do not use DRM and limited online activations.

BAM! I wasn't able to install it because I had "drive emulation tools" on my PC.... or at least that's what SecuRom claimed.
Except for an old Nero version, there is no virtual drive, or CD copy software on my PC.

Still, I couldn't install it until I did some research on the support site. So... I had to copy the install folder on my HDD and install it from there.
Fine, took me longer, but it worked.
Then I couldn't start the damn game. SecuRom wouldn't let me.
So I installed a Fallout 3 patch and tried it again. Nothing...
Then I found out I had to install the patch for SecuRom and then install the Fallout 3 patch.... ok... duh... but it still wouldn't start.
Finally I found out I could neither start is from DVD, nor by the launcher. The only way for me to play it, was to start the exe file directly.

When I got that whole crap done, it was already late... too late to actually play the game, cause to buy games, I need money and therefore, I have to go to work...