[The E]

Why do you think they lack AI support?

[Ravenholme]

Why do you think they lack AI support?

Because AIs have never been mentioned in the Freespace lore, or at least, never mentioned as taking an active role. More likely to be support/computational roles.

At the end of the day, Freespace always has humans in command/pulling the trigger/pressing the red button/etc.

Which then leads to situations where the UEF is going to be unsuited by nature, since it's a very a humanistic society (Which is lovely), they're going to find it hard to sacrifice the few for the many. Especially when the few are a refugee convoy screaming at them to come back and save them from the incoming Shivans, and they've got to go off and protect the Europan colony instead.

[The E]

Well.

I could point out how the preconceptions you have based on your experiences as a good GTVA citizen have shaped your expectations.

Consider: The GTVA is still very much a frontier society. Yes, they have a dozen planets. BUT: All of them are pretty much untamed land. Life in the GTVA, for the average citizen, is still very much about making their worlds livable.

The UEF, on the other hand, has the most developed infrastructure in the known universe at their disposal. They have a population base that is as large as that of the entire GTVA combined. They have the resources to spend on pure research projects. They can afford to do stuff that the GTVA would never, ever contemplate, simply because it would not be practical for them.

In short, the success of Ubuntu is very much based on the Elders being Badass Bookworms, well versed in the art of Awesomeness by Analysis. They have the ressources I just described at their disposal. They can, and indeed have created a Utopia for Mankind. They have created something that is so powerful that even should the GTVA achieve military supremacy, it will have to change into something unrecognizable because there is no other way to hold Sol.

Also, consider this: The Shivans are the symptoms of a larger problem. The Shivans themselves cannot be beaten by military force. You can blow up Sathanii left and right, and you would still not make a dent. The GTVA's absolute focus on finding a resolution based on force of arms is too narrow to find a long-term solution.
The Vasudans have a somewhat different POV. So does the UEF. Are they wrong? Maybe. But, does that make the GTVA right by default?

[MatthTheGeek]

I think we should see the Ubuntu-GTVA ideological conflict from a different point of vue. Let's remember Capella : the Shivans can't be defeated with military actions. It's a fact. Yes, we can slow them down, yes, we can isolate ourselves blowing nodes up, but eventually, we can't win a war against the Shivans.

Starting from this fact, GTVA's point of vue is wrong. Even if they win the war against the UEF with minimal losses, get the hand on Sol industrial power and build a huge fleet of Raynors and Titans, they can't hope to win a war against the Shivans. The only thing they can hope is either to stop them temporarily via node collapsing, or make a last stand before going into hiding à la Sanctuary. Humanity can't spend its history fighting an invincible enemy, dreading about their next incursion, or go in hiding forever in a sleeper ship.

So, that being said, what remaining choice do we have ? The Ubuntu is not ready for a military conflict against a xenocidal race, it's also a fact. But as I just said above, the military solution isn't the good solution anyway.

Now let's remember Age of Aquarius. How did the 14th Battlegroup and the Sanctuary made it back to our universe, while the whole Shivan armada wanted them dead ? Not really thanks to their military might. They survived because of the Vishnans. More precisely, because the Vishnans chose to save them.

Now why did they chose to ?

They have created. They have created communities where former enemies can live in peace. They have created peace from war, where former enemies are now friends.

Both races exhibited potential.

And what is humanity doing in War in Heaven ? Where are the communities, where is the peace, what do we create, where is the potential the Vishnans decided worth saving ? And add to that the fact that even the relations between the Terran and Vasudan in GTVA are damaged, and you will be starting to understand my point.

Only the Vishnans have the power to stop the Shivans. But if we ever manage to contact the Vishnans in our universe, they probably won't be so much willing to save our races if we continue to fight each other.

Conclusion : War isn't the solution. But basing all our hopes on the Vishnans when we don't even know how to contact them, and not even being assured that they will help us, isn't very clever either. Maybe it's too late, maybe we have already wasted our potential as a race, and then we can only count on GTVA's military solution. But maybe not. We know some Ubuntu leaders "claim that they are in contact with a sophisticated alien race", and same goes for some Vasudan "prophets". Maybe it's the Vishnans. Maybe it's just fantasizing. Maybe it is something totally different. But it also may be the last hope to "bring the rest of our race to enlightenment".

[High Max]

;-)

[Snail]

<<Vishnans>>

Let us not forget that if the Vishnans truly wanted to save us, they could have done so already. Let us not forget that the Vishnans allowed the Shivans to destroy Vasuda Prime and Earth in the alternate universe and allowed billions to perish somewhat needlessly.

The Vishnans probably have some hidden agenda. Hell, they're practically on first-name basis with Shiva.

[pecenipicek]

... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?


This is an interesting read, and i applaud that you are going to such lengths to flesh it all out but... i disagree on the whole idea


In any case, looking forward to more reads like this

[The E]

No force is infinite in size. Just how many Sathani does the Shivans have in your fanon (not ones that appear in the campaign but ones that exist)? Knowing Bat, he would say millions, but that is far fetched and he isn't the creator of BP. Enlighten me. Then can you tell me how many Dantes they have? I remember you saying that they have even bigger ships in this fanon universe.

You are right, no force is infinite. There are limits to the Shivans. But there is no way of knowing what those limits are.

Everything we've seen so far points towards the Shivans operating on scales that are quite literally unfathomable. How can you fight an enemy that has demonstrated the ability to overpower you whenever it chooses? How can you hope to defeat an enemy that has no known fixed bases? No known infrastructure? That has demonstrated abilities far above your own?

You can quite safely assume that the Shivans have the resources to wipe out humanity in a week, if they are feeling lazy.

... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?

Because a) we can b) the Culture is awesome and c) because we can.

[MatthTheGeek]

Let us not forget that if the Vishnans truly wanted to save us, they could have done so already. Let us not forget that the Vishnans allowed the Shivans to destroy Vasuda Prime and Earth in the alternate universe and allowed billions to perish somewhat needlessly.

The Vishnans probably have some hidden agenda. Hell, they're practically on first-name basis with Shiva.

Then I suggest you to replay AoA. The Vishnans didn't even know of the existence of the Terrans and the Vasudans before they contacted Bei. In the same way, if the Vishnans in Sanctuary's universe and in ours can't communicate in any way, the Vishnans probably don't know about us yet - unless they have been in contact with Ubuntu leaders/Vasudan prophets, but that's another matter.

That the Vishnans have their own agenda, hell yes. Like the Shivans, we know literally nothing about them. But they have saved the 14th BG and the Sanctuary because humanity had showed "potential" - and not even in their universe ! And then they say "We will meet again when your people are ready". Clearly, they are disposed to help us again if we show we deserve it - if we consider that the Vishnans in our universe and in Sanctuary's have a similar agenda.

[pecenipicek]

... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?

Because a) we can b) the Culture is awesome and c) because we can.

But... UBUNTU?!? XD


Was there  a precursor movement called Debian maybe?

[/intentional asshattery]

[General Battuta]

... ugh ... Why turn the UEF into wannabe-Culture?

Because a) we can b) the Culture is awesome and c) because we can.

But... UBUNTU?!? XD


Was there  a precursor movement called Debian maybe?

[/intentional asshattery]

This was the original inspiration.

Much as The_E may namedrop the Culture, and while it's a useful metaphor, the UEF is the UEF, and its details were not particularly informed by the Culture.

Also, I think team members should probably step back from the debates. We've always wanted to create a bilateral war in which both sides had good arguments for their superiority. Let's let the arguments happen!

and frankly, the Utopian styled system seems like it'd collapse at the first sign of a sneeze, since they're so far out from human nature it's not even funny.

Reread the dossier, you weren't paying attention!

[Dilmah G]

Also, I think team members should probably step back from the debates. We've always wanted to create a bilateral war in which both sides had good arguments for their superiority. Let's let the arguments happen!

Agreed.

I'm stepping off my Pro-GTVA horse for the time being, as far as discussions are going.

[Ypoknons]

Level of sophistication on the economics side not usually seen in mods, good work (as with most elements). Glad to know those of us in Hong Kong haven't forgotten our trade skills 300 years in the future

Very similar to my personal philosophies actually. I might have to join up. I'm quite curious about the economics of the whole thing... wait, you guys have a behavioral economist in your ranks. I know do. If not, at least someone in marketing.

[Thaeris]

Heh... Good read.

...Now where's my Herc II?

 

[Snail]

Very similar to my personal philosophies actually. I might have to join up. I'm quite curious about the economics of the whole thing... wait, you guys have a behavioral economist in your ranks. I know do. If not, at least someone in marketing.

It was that bouncing Battuta! I know it!

Heh... Good read.

...Now where's my Herc II?

 

GTVA NEEDS YOU

[General Battuta]

Level of sophistication on the economics side not usually seen in mods, good work (as with most elements). Glad to know those of us in Hong Kong haven't forgotten our trade skills 300 years in the future

Very similar to my personal philosophies actually. I might have to join up. I'm quite curious about the economics of the whole thing... wait, you guys have a behavioral economist in your ranks. I know do. If not, at least someone in marketing.

Ve are honored by your presence, sirrah.

[Colonol Dekker]

I'm assuming the feds use linux?

[Spoon]

What's all this talk about protoculture then?

The story will not be rooting for either side. The goal has always been to present a truly bilateral conflict, both morally and militarily.

I'm interested in seeing how you guys are going to pull this off when the player only gets to fly as UEF 
I have high hopes, considering the level of writing

[-Norbert-]

Not too much of a problem I guess. Just look at Sol: A History. There you even play for the "bad" side.

[High Max]

;-)